High school student says he was arrested for killing dinosaur in class assignment
Posted: Aug 19, 2014 4:17 PM CDT
Updated: Aug 19, 2014 10:25 PM CDT
SUMMERVILLE, SC (WCSC) - ?
A 16-year-old Summerville High School student says he was arrested Tuesday morning and suspended after writing about killing a dinosaur using a gun.
Alex Stone said he and his classmates were told in class to write a few sentences about themselves, and a "status" as if it was a Facebook page.
Stone said in his "status" he wrote a fictional story that involved the words "gun" and "take care of business."
"I killed my neighbor's pet dinosaur, and, then, in the next status I said I bought the gun to take care of the business," Stone said.
Stone says his statements were taken completely out of context.
"I could understand if they made him re-write it because he did have "gun" in it. But a pet dinosaur?" said Alex's mother Karen Gray."I mean first of all, we don't have dinosaurs anymore. Second of all, he's not even old enough to buy a gun."
Investigators say the teacher contacted school officials after seeing the message containing the words "gun" and "take care of business," and police were then notified on Tuesday.
Summerville police officials say Stone's bookbag and locker were searched on Tuesday, and a gun was not found.
According to Gray, Stone was suspended for the rest of the week. Gray says she is furious that the school did not contact her before her son was arrested.
She says her son followed directions and completed an assignment.
"If the school would have called me and told me about the paper and asked me to come down and discussed everything and, at least, get his point-of-view on the way he meant it. I never heard from the school, never. They never called me," said Gray.
Stone and his mother say they understand the sensitive nature of what he wrote, but they say it was a rash reaction to an innocent situation.
"I regret it because they put it on my record, but I don't see the harm in it," Stone said."I think there might have been a better way of putting it, but I think me writing like that, it shouldn't matter unless I put it out towards a person."
According to police, when Stone was asked by school officials about the comment written on the assignment, he said it was a joke.
Summerville police officials say Stone was disruptive and was told that he was being detained for disturbing schools.
Stone was arrested and charged with disorderly conduct.
I graduated high school in 2000. Things were starting to get a little weird my senior year after Colombine's mass shooting, but god damn am I glad I got out when I did. If writing about shooting a dinosaur could get you arrested I can only imagine the rap sheet I would have if I were in school now. At the time I was DMing a long running Vampire: The Masquerade games set in a nearby city. All my notes on Sabbat blood rituals, weapons caches, and attack plans for demolishing a hotel that was owned by the Prince of the city surely would have resulted in my immediate placement on Death Row.
daedalus wrote: Well, he loses points because he wasn't as funny as he thought he was, but the school loses more.
That and the whole "16 year old says...after writing about killing about a dinosaur with a gun". Next there will be a story about how he failed math just because his teacher didn't like him. I imagine the police and administration have a different story than the kid and his mom.
Seriously, a single word now means you can be arrested? Christ on a stick that's a lot of freedom.
My guess is this hyper-sensitivity is a direct effect of our all-too-frequent school shootings, and that teachers are looking for warning signs everywhere, even in creatve stories about pet dinosaurs.
timetowaste85 wrote: This is the dumbest thing I ever heard of (okay, I have actually heard dumber). I'm glad to be out of the school system. This is a colossal joke.
Right? I remember writing all kinds of wierd violent stuff even in middle school. My teachers always encouraged the creative aspect, while making sure I understood the clear distinction between fiction and reality.\
I would not have survived in today's school system.
I expect better from states that have not lost their collective mind.
Haven't you ever heard the Civil War era quote; "South Carolina: too small to be a republic; too big to be an insane asylum" ...?
Just because a state votes conservative doesn't mean it can't be just as crazy as anyone else. It's just that they are usually crazy in a different way.
In a related story, I would never have graduated from school if I'd been a student in today's school environment. I once wrote a short story for one of my classes that amounted to little more than an erotic fan fic about an explosion.
Just because a state votes conservative doesn't mean it can't be just as crazy as anyone else. It's just that they are usually crazy in a different way.
timetowaste85 wrote: This is the dumbest thing I ever heard of (okay, I have actually heard dumber). I'm glad to be out of the school system. This is a colossal joke.
Right? I remember writing all kinds of wierd violent stuff even in middle school. My teachers always encouraged the creative aspect, while making sure I understood the clear distinction between fiction and reality.\
I would not have survived in today's school system.
Indeed. Same for both Jr. and High School. I remember drawing a scene from the Battle of Five Armies. I'd have been locked away.
Of course back then you didn't worry about writing "gun" because everyone with a pickup in the parking lot had a "gun" on the gunrack.
daedalus wrote: Well, he loses points because he wasn't as funny as he thought he was, but the school loses more.
That and the whole "16 year old says...after writing about killing about a dinosaur with a gun". Next there will be a story about how he failed math just because his teacher didn't like him. I imagine the police and administration have a different story than the kid and his mom.
I'd like to read the story before I pass judgment.
You are not allowed to say 'gun' in American schools?
Geez, and I thought Americans were the ones who were so fond of their guns.
In Russian schools we actually have gun training and military drills. Stop this Americans, go back to your old weapon-obsessed guns=FREEDOM ways, otherwise you are going to make us Russians look like a bunch of militaristic, agressive gunslinging rednecks for having guns in school
Iron_Captain wrote: Stop this Americans, go back to your old weapon-obsessed guns=FREEDOM ways, otherwise you are going to make us Russians look like a bunch of militaristic, agressive gunslinging rednecks for having guns in school
Tzar Putin does a pretty good job of this all by his lonesome
The crazy thing about this is that I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of books/stories I had to read in high school featured a firearm or weapon of some sort at some point somewhere in them, are they on a new banned book list for featuring the 'g' word?
This is just insane. Really, when things like this are happening my faith in humanity goes through the floor. Just, why?
Also, it seems most of what I wrote between the ages of 9 and 18 would get me locked up in that mental institution. I mean, I once wrote about stabbing a vampire, which clearly marks me out as a future murderer to anyone unable to realise fiction and reality are, in fact, different things.
This is an isolated incident. An absolutely ridiculous one, but still. It doesn't reflect the state of schools and school discipline across the nation.
I assure you, there are still kids playing D&D and writing stories that include weapons in schools in the US, and the vast majority of them are not getting suspended or arrested.
Either there is more to this story or it is an isolated incident of a teacher overreacting combined with administration that lacks any intestinal fortitude.
Again, I'm guessing that the content of the story beyond the inclusion of a gun might have triggered the teacher's reaction. What if the dinosaur was clearly a thinly-veiled stand-in for another student or a teacher? And wasn't it his freak-out that got him arrested?
I mean, I don't want to interrupt the BLARRRGGOUTRAGERAWRR!!! here, but if you connect some dots it seems at least *possible* that the kid has some anger issues that have adults concerned.
I guess calmly reminding him that was the plot of a major blockbuster movie (Jurassic Park II) and that dinosaurs have been extinct for at least 200 years (we all weep for our fallen coconut eating TRex friends) should have proven helpful.
gorgon wrote: I mean, I don't want to interrupt the BLARRRGGOUTRAGERAWRR!!! here
Now if that were true you wouldn't be lookin' at all them fancy facts and context. You're supposed to buy into it that the word "gun" got a kid suspended, get angry, and complain about how things were better back in the day.
gorgon wrote: I mean, I don't want to interrupt the BLARRRGGOUTRAGERAWRR!!! here
Now if that were true you wouldn't be lookin' at all them fancy facts and context. You're supposed to buy into it that the word "gun" got a kid suspended, get angry, and complain about how things were better back in the day.
Its no use. He probably won't listen.
Now we must send him and other deviants to Siberia for 're-education through labour'.
State Statute 59-24-60 law Enforcement Notification: In addition to other provisions required by law or by regulation of the State Board of Education, school administrators must contact law enforcement authorities immediately upon notice that a person engaging or has engaged in activities on school property or at a school sanctioned or sponsored activity which may result or results in injury or serious threat of injury to the person or to another person or his property as defined in local board policy.
Please note that school personnel no longer have discretion regarding calling the police. This statute means just what it says, ―must contact law enforcement authorities immediately.
So the question arises; did the staff member have a credible belief that the student was expressing a desire to harm his neighbor. If so, the state law apparently requires the involvement of law enforcement.
Most states have similar laws, I know that Oklahoma does (where I reside) and it's even legal to park on school property with a loaded firearm in the vehicle as long as it is unattended, locked, the firearm is not visible, and you have proper permits (new law passed in the spring session).
What we don't know as random punters on the internet is any background about the student. Has he had a past history of violent behavior? Is the neighbor a student at the school? Is the neighbor's dog named "Rex" or any other interchangeable form of a dinosaur?
I'm not going to assume at surface level that what the school and local law enforcement did was wrong because I don't have enough information.
Edit:
The school district uses a 3-tier system of identification regarding disorderly conduct. For an arrest, he would have to be a very bad boy (assuming the school followed their procedures).
Spoiler:
DISORDERLY CONDUCT The following listing of offenses and the required or recommended dispositions are submitted for the information of students, parents, and school personnel. Disciplinary actions will include appropriate hearings and review, and the removal of a student from the learning environment will occur only for just cause and in accordance with due process of law. Level I 1. Disorderly conduct is defined as those activities engaged in by student(s) which tend to impede orderly classroom procedures or instructional activities, orderly operation of the school, or the frequency or seriousness of which disturb classroom or school.
2. Acts of disorderly conduct may include, but are not limited to: a. Classroom/school tardiness; b. Cheating on examinations or classroom assignments; c. Lying; d. Acting in a manner so as to interfere with the instructional process; e. Abusive language between or among students; f. Failure to complete assignments or carry out directions; g. Use of forged notes or excuses; h. Cutting classes; i. Stealing; j. Truancy; k. Disturbing the school; l. Vandalism; m. Fraud; n. Leaving campus without authorization o. Other disorderly acts as determined by the Board.
3. The basic enforcement procedures to be followed in instances of disorderly conduct are: a. Upon observation or notification and verification of an offense, the staff member should take immediate action to rectify the misconduct. The staff member should apply an appropriate sanction, with the exception of ―e‖ and should maintain a record of the misconduct and the sanction. b. If certain misconduct is not immediately rectifiable, the problem should be referred to the appropriate administrator for action specified under this policy. c. The administrator should communicate with the reporting staff member and, if necessary, the student and the parent or guardian, and shall take the appropriate disciplinary action. d. Documentation of the procedures should be maintained. 4. Possible sanctions to be applied in cases of disorderly conduct may include, but are not limited to: a. Verbal reprimand; b. Withdrawal of privileges; c. Demerits; d. Detention; e. Corporal punishment; f. On-campus reasonable work detail; g. Other sanctions approved by the Board of Trustees.
Level II 1. Disruptive conduct is defined as those activities engaged in by student(s) which are directed against persons or property, and the consequences of which tend to endanger the health or safety of oneself or others in the school. Some instances of disruptive conduct may overlap certain criminal offenses, justifying both administrative sanctions and legal proceedings. Disorderly conduct (Level I) may be reclassified as disruptive conduct (Level II) if it occurs three or more times.
2. Acts of disruptive conduct may include, but are not limited to: a. Use of an intoxicant; b. Fighting/simple assault; c. Vandalism (minor); d. Stealing; e. Threats against others; f. Trespassing; g. Abusive language to staff; h. Refusal to obey school personnel or agents (such as volunteers, aides or chaperons) whose responsibilities include supervision of students; i. Possession or use of unauthorized substances, as defined by law or local school board policy; j. Illegally occupying or blocking in any way school property with the intent to deprive others of its use; k. Unlawful assembly; l. Disrupting lawful assembly; m. Fireworks; n. Intimidation; o. Liquor violation; p. Fraud; q. Counterfeiting/gambling; r. Pornographic material; s. Leaving campus without authorization; t. Any other acts as determined by the Board of Trustees.
3. The basic enforcement procedures to be followed in instances of disruptive conduct are: a. Upon observation or notification and verification of an offense, the administrator should investigate the circumstances of the misconduct. b. The administrator should notify the parent or guardian of the student’s misconduct and related proceedings. The administrator should meet with the student and, if necessary, the parent or guardian, confer with them about the misconduct, and shall take the appropriate action. c. Documentation of the procedures should be maintained.
4. Possible sanctions to be applied in cases of disruptive conduct may include, but are not limited to: a. Temporary removal from class; b. Out-of-school suspension; c. Transfer within the school or district; d. Referral to outside agency, i.e. law enforcement; e. Expulsion; f. On-campus reasonable work detail; g. Restitution of property and damages, where appropriate, should be sought by local school authorities; h. School level probation; i. Board level probation; j. Other sanctions as approved by the Board of Trustees.
Level III 1. Criminal conduct is defined as those activities engaged in by student(s) which result in violence to oneself or another person or property or which pose a direct and serious threat to the safety of oneself or others in the school. These activities usually require administrative action, which result in the immediate removal of the student from the school, the intervention of law enforcement authorities, and/or action by the Board of Trustees.
2. Acts of criminal conduct may include, but are not limited to: a. Aggravated assault and battery; b. Extortion; c. Bomb threat; d. Possession, use, or transfer of dangerous weapons or look-a-like weapons or anything which is used as a weapon; e. Sexual offenses; f. Vandalism (major); g. Theft, possession, or sale of stolen property/larceny; h. Arson; i. Furnishing or selling unauthorized substances, as defined by board policy; j. Drug possession (drugs, narcotics, or poisons) or look-a-like substance including prescription and non-prescription; k. Drug distribution including prescription and non-prescription; l. Intimidation; m. Embezzlement; n. Prostitution; o. Pornographic material; p. Leaving campus without authorization; q. Homicide.
3. The basic enforcement procedures to be followed in instances of criminal conduct are: a. Upon observation or notification and verification of an offense, the administrator should confer with the staff involved, shall take the appropriate disciplinary action, and, if appropriate, should meet with the student. b. If warranted, the student should be removed immediately from the school environment. A parent or guardian should be notified as soon as possible. c. If appropriate, school officials should contact law enforcement authorities. d. Established due process procedures shall be followed when applicable. e. Documentation of the procedures should be maintained. 4. Possible sanctions to be applied in cases of criminal conduct may include, but are not limited to: a. Out-of-school suspension; b. Expulsion; c. Restitution of property and damages, where appropriate, should be sought by local school authorities; d. Arrest by law enforcement; e. Other sanctions as approved by the Board of Trustees.
So the question arises; did the staff member have a credible belief that the student was expressing a desire to harm his neighbor. If so, the state law apparently requires the involvement of law enforcement.
So the question arises; did the staff member have a credible belief that the student was expressing a desire to harm his neighbor. If so, the state law apparently requires the involvement of law enforcement.
You mean the neighbor's...dinosaur?
Neighbor's name is Rex...easy inferrence to catch if you're not a stupid 16 year old; nice of you quote me out of context.
When I was in high school I wrote a poem about how angry I am, how I hate everyone in the school system and how I wish we would all die. My teacher submitted it to a poetry compilation and had me read it outloud. What would happen now if I did that?
Just an example. Rex is a common dog's name and is relatable to dinosaurs. It can also be used as a person's name, mine for example is Rex. It is common for children to call someone named Rex "Trex" or other, similar nicknames.
Look, I know it's easy to jump to conclusions due to the media hyping up a situation; however, you have to question whether we have all of the information. For all that we know, this kid has been feuding with a fellow student and something that is easily attributable to dinosaurs might be involved and he put a veiled threat in his writing.
hotsauceman1 wrote: When I was in high school I wrote a poem about how angry I am, how I hate everyone in the school system and how I wish we would all die.
My teacher submitted it to a poetry compilation and had me read it outloud.
What would happen now if I did that?
I took a creative writing class in HS and wrote a short story titled "Death of a Santa Claus"; it was submitted and published in a city-wide publication.
Unfortunately, we're not living in the same time just like when I was a kid (8 or 9), I could ride my bike all around the neighborhood and now parents generally don't let their kids go out of sight. Different world, unless you graduated last year; in that case, different city/school district.
hotsauceman1 wrote: When I was in high school I wrote a poem about how angry I am, how I hate everyone in the school system and how I wish we would all die.
My teacher submitted it to a poetry compilation and had me read it outloud.
What would happen now if I did that?
under heavy medication that would turn you just this side of a zombie?
Just an example. Rex is a common dog's name and is relatable to dinosaurs. It can also be used as a person's name, mine for example is Rex. It is common for children to call someone named Rex "Trex" or other, similar nicknames.
Look, I know it's easy to jump to conclusions due to the media hyping up a situation; however, you have to question whether we have all of the information. For all that we know, this kid has been feuding with a fellow student and something that is easily attributable to dinosaurs might be involved and he put a veiled threat in his writing.
hotsauceman1 wrote: When I was in high school I wrote a poem about how angry I am, how I hate everyone in the school system and how I wish we would all die.
My teacher submitted it to a poetry compilation and had me read it outloud.
What would happen now if I did that?
under heavy medication that would turn you just this side of a zombie?
You forgot the part where they'd also ship him off to a school full of genuinely violent kids.
hotsauceman1 wrote: When I was in high school I wrote a poem about how angry I am, how I hate everyone in the school system and how I wish we would all die.
My teacher submitted it to a poetry compilation and had me read it outloud.
What would happen now if I did that?
under heavy medication that would turn you just this side of a zombie?
You forgot the part where they'd also ship him off to a school full of genuinely violent kids.
At my high school, they used to ship the trouble-makers to Vo-Tech (maybe this is now an outdated term). Which meant the problem just got transferred from one group of teachers to another group of teachers, and the kids who were there because they were sincerely interested in vocational training got a worse education for it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: When I was in high school I wrote a poem about how angry I am, how I hate everyone in the school system and how I wish we would all die.
My teacher submitted it to a poetry compilation and had me read it outloud.
What would happen now if I did that?
under heavy medication that would turn you just this side of a zombie?
You forgot the part where they'd also ship him off to a school full of genuinely violent kids.
Alternative School! Mmm...memories.
When you talk about weiner dogs parachuting into the school the free classmates from detention, you have to guess that would happen.
A few years back, the enxt door neighbor had a fat furry wiener dog named Max. Probably the friendliest dog on the planet. About once a week she would get a call, that Max had gotten out and wandered over to the elementary next door and was inside playing with the kids.
hotsauceman1 wrote: When I was in high school I wrote a poem about how angry I am, how I hate everyone in the school system and how I wish we would all die.
My teacher submitted it to a poetry compilation and had me read it outloud.
What would happen now if I did that?
I took a creative writing class in HS and wrote a short story titled "Death of a Santa Claus"; it was submitted and published in a city-wide publication.
Unfortunately, we're not living in the same time just like when I was a kid (8 or 9), I could ride my bike all around the neighborhood and now parents generally don't let their kids go out of sight. Different world, unless you graduated last year; in that case, different city/school district.
Yeah, they're jumpy in the schools these days. *shrug* A lot of things have changed like that.
Years ago, you could get away with a lot of stuff in an airport without getting arrested and sent to a labor camp. Like, for instance, smiling or looking a security person in the eye.
Frazzled wrote: A few years back, the enxt door neighbor had a fat furry wiener dog named Max. Probably the friendliest dog on the planet. About once a week she would get a call, that Max had gotten out and wandered over to the elementary next door and was inside playing with the kids.
Max was obviously an advance scout for the invasion.
Frazzled wrote: A few years back, the enxt door neighbor had a fat furry wiener dog named Max. Probably the friendliest dog on the planet. About once a week she would get a call, that Max had gotten out and wandered over to the elementary next door and was inside playing with the kids.
Max was obviously an advance scout for the invasion.
He was, he was indeed. His calm "love me rub my belly!" demeanor was a front for his true tinker tailor soldier spy persona!
Desubot wrote: So how long till they remove every G word from history books n stuff or anything remotely L shaped.
Seriously... pretty soon the American War of Independence will have been harshly decided over strong language and louder fireworks... simply because that word or any action directly related to it cannot be used
Either there is more to this story or it is an isolated incident of a teacher overreacting combined with administration that lacks any intestinal fortitude.
My guess would be in line with this... I wrote plenty of stuff that, if I had this teacher, would probably be locked up as well (not to mention, I took to drawing the Linux penguin holding an assortment of weapons on paper, in lieu of my actual name for one of my science classes )
I personally never really had a problem with any teachers, due to being a football player, and most of the teachers who saw THAT kind of writing, were my football coaches. This could ultimately boil down to a teacher just starting out in the school year doesn't really have a full grasp of each of their students' and their personalities, and thus having this overreaction.
hotsauceman1 wrote: When I was in high school I wrote a poem about how angry I am, how I hate everyone in the school system and how I wish we would all die.
My teacher submitted it to a poetry compilation and had me read it outloud.
What would happen now if I did that?
A long while ago for my year 10 creative writing I wrote a story about a guy who murdered his family (least i think it was his family) when we got the results back she said "that was very well written but will not get you good marks" in response I gave her a long extended death stare ( unfortunately without communicating why I was giving one - that horror writing is just as valuable writing as any other ) . The result next year I was no longer in her class ( after 3 loooooong years of hearing feminist, literary elitist BS -- if I ever publish a novel there will be an acknowledgement to her in the front) and my new teacher said he had no idea why I was moved down to his class.
It seems we have a lot of people on Dakka who would have been gaoled in high school.
Ahtman wrote: That and the whole "16 year old says...after writing about killing about a dinosaur with a gun". Next there will be a story about how he failed math just because his teacher didn't like him. I imagine the police and administration have a different story than the kid and his mom.
Yep. The district officials state that he was suspended for writing about bringing a gun to school.
It's incredible really, any person on this thread who actually spoke to a 16 year old kid would believe maybe a half of what that he says, because we all know teenages lie all the damn time. And if it was about a kid trying to get out of trouble, then we'd all know it's just total bs from beginning to end. And yet if the story involves ludicrous claims about school, we just accept it all.
We want to believe schools are insanely run, and so we just turn off our bs detectors when it comes to crazy stories about schools.
We want to believe schools are insanely run, and so we just turn off our bs detectors when it comes to crazy stories about schools.
I really don't think we WANT to. The problem is that as time progresses, your score in "Real life or The Onion" always decreases to the point in which that it's just too damned hard to tell anymore.
daedalus wrote: I really don't think we WANT to. The problem is that as time progresses, your score in "Real life or The Onion" always decreases to the point in which that it's just too damned hard to tell anymore.
True, my life on the internet has certainly made me incapable of calling bs on anything without looking it up first, because I've had just enough instances of reading about truly ludicrous things and then finding out they actually happened...
But there's more to it than that, I think, because I think generally there's enough cynicism on the internet that while things might not be rejected, they generally aren't also just accepted as truth. And yet in this thread Ahtman suggested it wasn't true, a couple of others said they wanted to know more, but pretty much everyone else just accepted it and used it as proof that schools had gone mad, mad I tells ya.
Seriously... pretty soon the American War of Independence will have been harshly decided over strong language and louder fireworks... simply because that word or any action directly related to it cannot be used
Never happen. The overwhelming majority of textbooks in the US are written in Texas. You can try telling a Texan to not write about guns. I'll stand over here.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I graduated high school in 2000. Things were starting to get a little weird my senior year after Colombine's mass shooting, but god damn am I glad I got out when I did. If writing about shooting a dinosaur could get you arrested I can only imagine the rap sheet I would have if I were in school now. At the time I was DMing a long running Vampire: The Masquerade games set in a nearby city. All my notes on Sabbat blood rituals, weapons caches, and attack plans for demolishing a hotel that was owned by the Prince of the city surely would have resulted in my immediate placement on Death Row.
That reminds me of an story I read in a book about the history of Wargaming where a group of people in the UK where playing a game of Diplomacy via Letter and Telegram in the early 70's.
One player in a moment of extreme naivety decided to send a Telegram to his fellow players to whom he was allied, simply stating 'Attack on Liverpool confirmed". Later that day the anti terrorist squad kicked in his front door.
It was all sorted out relatively quickly, the police investigated and confirmed that this man was involved in a game and not a terrorist and he was released without charge.
Funny story, however I can't help but feel that today a similar error today would result in charges under the Communications Act 2003 as opposed to police using their common sense and releasing the man without charge once his story was confirmed.
squidhills wrote: Never happen. The overwhelming majority of textbooks in the US are written in Texas. You can try telling a Texan to not write about guns. I'll stand over here.
I can see this changing over time. The Texas Board of Education have tried to write Thomas Jefferson out of history, presumably because he was not a Christian, they endlessly keep trying to insert science denial into science textbooks. At some point, states have to realize that books designed to satisfy the Texas Board of Education, which quite frankly is a joke (sorry Frazzled), are not a good source of educational material for their children.
A good movie, The Revisionaries, was produced detailing the kind of unabashed shenanigans that go on in the Texas Board of Education. It's not pretty to watch, but its important to behold.
At some point, states have to realize that books designed to satisfy the Texas Board of Education, which quite frankly is a joke (sorry Frazzled), are not a good source of educational material for their children.
I wouldn't go as far as to say they are a joke, but they are often quite funny. Their review of textbooks is poor. Their emphasis on college prep, language standards and upping math has been excellent.
I agree though, a lot of textbooks are pretty weak. The Boy was taking college courses at the same time he was finishing high school, and the difference between the textbooks (not to mention downloads etc he had) was pretty striking.
Its bad when I opened up a textbook and immediately spotted an error.
Its bad when I opened up a textbook and immediately spotted an error.
I nearly got kicked out of my AP European History class for doing this. I honestly don't remember many of the exact details, just that the teacher said, "if you read in this paragraph it says this happened" and I said "no, it didn't. According to this book, this book and this book (including authors) THIS, is how it happened"
From then on, I was allowed to take my self imposed, "mandatory" nap during that class
A good movie, The Revisionaries, was produced detailing the kind of unabashed shenanigans that go on in the Texas Board of Education. It's not pretty to watch, but its important to behold.
That clip at the end, about the head of the board saying he would only approve his beliefs despite what anyone says, was horrifying. So horrifying in fact that my only reaction is screaming uncontrollably. Which I will now do.
At some point, states have to realize that books designed to satisfy the Texas Board of Education, which quite frankly is a joke (sorry Frazzled), are not a good source of educational material for their children.
I wouldn't go as far as to say they are a joke, but they are often quite funny. Their review of textbooks is poor. Their emphasis on college prep, language standards and upping math has been excellent.
I agree though, a lot of textbooks are pretty weak. The Boy was taking college courses at the same time he was finishing high school, and the difference between the textbooks (not to mention downloads etc he had) was pretty striking.
Its bad when I opened up a textbook and immediately spotted an error.
At some point, states have to realize that books designed to satisfy the Texas Board of Education, which quite frankly is a joke (sorry Frazzled), are not a good source of educational material for their children.
I wouldn't go as far as to say they are a joke, but they are often quite funny. Their review of textbooks is poor. Their emphasis on college prep, language standards and upping math has been excellent.
I agree though, a lot of textbooks are pretty weak. The Boy was taking college courses at the same time he was finishing high school, and the difference between the textbooks (not to mention downloads etc he had) was pretty striking.
Its bad when I opened up a textbook and immediately spotted an error.
I'm interested in this error.
The date the war of 1812 started. Strangely it didn"t start in 1845.
lilgammer123 wrote: All jokes aside its just another demonstration of how America has an awful school system...
This is a commonly claimed true thing that isn't actually held up by international testing. If you leave aside the Asian countries that cook the books, then the US falls pretty much around the middle of the pack, or slightly below the middle depending on which subject you're looking at. The US system isn't awful, it is at worst slightly below average.
And then if you look closer at the figures you see the US actually excels in extra programs for high performing students and in support programs for low performing students, and then what's happening actually starts to make sense - when you put a lot of extra resources in the top 10% and the bottom 10% then you have slightly less resources for the middle students, and international comparisons focus heavily on the median student.
The other issue impacting US results is equality across schools - because so much funding comes from local government then wealthy school districts have an abundance of resources, meaning lots of money spent on marginal programs, while poor districts have a scarcity, meaning they don't fund programs that could really improve education standards.
Its bad when I opened up a textbook and immediately spotted an error.
To some extent that's deliberate, as any error enables a textbook manufacturer to issue, and therefore sell, a new edition which includes the correction. This is much more prevalent at the collegiate level, as the school isn't actually paying for the textbooks.
I nearly got kicked out of my AP European History class for doing this. I honestly don't remember many of the exact details, just that the teacher said, "if you read in this paragraph it says this happened" and I said "no, it didn't. According to this book, this book and this book (including authors) THIS, is how it happened"
Ha, when I was in AP History we used to have a regular guest speaker who would come in and lead discussions on ethics as they apply to governance, culture, the military, etc. One time he decided that he wanted to talk about the ethics of lying, this turned into an hour long debate him and myself, with him getting so frustrated that his face turned red. Good times.
From then on, I was allowed to take my self imposed, "mandatory" nap during that class
That's how AP English was for me. I spent so much time correcting my teacher's grammatical errors and misinterpretations of various literary themes that she eventually just told me I could sit in the back and sleep.
From then on, I was allowed to take my self imposed, "mandatory" nap during that class
That's how AP English was for me. I spent so much time correcting my teacher's grammatical errors and misinterpretations of various literary themes that she eventually just told me I could sit in the back and sleep.
Fun memories, but I got to sleep because the teachers were cool and not mad.
I've worked since I turned 16 and spend my Junior and Senior year tired as heck. Took AP biology and chemistry and spend the majority of the time sleeping in class. Not even "try to hide it" sleeping, but flat out "face on desk drooling" sleeping. She never said a word to me about it. One time some other kid fell asleep and she started to yell at him and told him to wake up and get his nose in the book to study. He started to bitch and moan about how it's not fair because I sleep all the time. So she started talking to me to wake me up and the conversation went like this:
teacher: "d-usa, wake up!"
me: (half asleep) "huh, what, hello...."
teacher: "d-usa, what's your average in my class?"
me: (no idea what is going on) ".....96-97...?"
teacher: (to me) "ok, go back to sleep" (to other guy) "you have a D average, when you carry an A you get to sleep"
Jehan-reznor wrote: I guess making an essay on the ramifications of the song "Jenny's got a gun" is out of the question
This doesn't only say much about the state of the school system but also the level of quality of the school personnel.
It also speaks volumes about the ability of dakka to critically assess news stories.
Hordini wrote:
Jehan-reznor wrote: I guess making an essay on the ramifications of the song "Jenny's got a gun" is out of the question
This doesn't only say much about the state of the school system but also the level of quality of the school personnel.
Read my post on the first page.
Also, Sebster is right.
What only politicians and intelligent design nutter are allowed to generalize? (and as far as i remember this is not the only incident there have been other's like that).
I never said it was the only time something like this has ever happened, but that doesn't mean it's not an isolated incident in the grand scheme of things, particularly when trying to make sweeping claims about the education system in the US.
Hordini wrote: I never said it was the only time something like this has ever happened, but that doesn't mean it's not an isolated incident in the grand scheme of things, particularly when trying to make sweeping claims about the education system in the US.
So you don't think the American Education has deteriorated of the last few decades?
Hordini wrote: I never said it was the only time something like this has ever happened, but that doesn't mean it's not an isolated incident in the grand scheme of things, particularly when trying to make sweeping claims about the education system in the US.
So you don't think the American Education has deteriorated of the last few decades?
That depends on what you mean by "American Education," and if you're including universities or just primary and secondary schools. I'm not sure I'm convinced it was particularly better before, though. I don't know that there is anything that was covered before that isn't now. As far as I can tell, there is a lot more access to higher math and science than there used to be (I even saw this increase while I was in school - more courses being offered to more students, and younger ones). There are certainly issues with methodology, such as teachers being forced to teach to standardized testing, but in my experience good teachers are able to get around that to a certain extent.
Jehan-reznor wrote: So you don't think the American Education has deteriorated of the last few decades?
I don't think there's ever been a point in history where people haven't thought education used to be much better at some ill-defined point in that past.
I think part of it is just golden age fallacy, but I wonder if much of it is that when we're in school we get a pretty decent understanding of its strengths and weaknesses because, you know, we're there everyday. We can see something bad happen but understand that that bad thing is unusual. Then we leave, and all we experience about school is what we read, or what other people tell us, and of course all that stuff focuses on the bad, and so we start to think that bad stuff is way more common than it really is.
And then there's the tendency to just accept stories like this one without questioning them at all. I don't really know what that's about.
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Hordini wrote: That depends on what you mean by "American Education," and if you're including universities or just primary and secondary schools. I'm not sure I'm convinced it was particularly better before, though. I don't know that there is anything that was covered before that isn't now. As far as I can tell, there is a lot more access to higher math and science than there used to be (I even saw this increase while I was in school - more courses being offered to more students, and younger ones). There are certainly issues with methodology, such as teachers being forced to teach to standardized testing, but in my experience good teachers are able to get around that to a certain extent.
There's certainly a lot of problems with the reforms built around standardised testing, but there are also strengths. For instance, this is the first time that we look at a failing student and don't just assume that it's the child's fault and wash our hands of them. The idea that the school ought to expand its skills and find the best method to teach every kid that comes there is a really powerful thing.
Of course, there's a load of problems with the methods used, and we rightly focus on those problems, but that doesn't mean we should ignore an important way in which teaching has changed.
In my varied experience with Law Enforcement and Education systems (in some of the most liberal parts of the country) there are three basic stories behind any situation like this, and none of them are mutually exclusive, check all that apply:
A. Inexperienced and/or metropolitan progressive teacher who is unsure how to handle such a situation as they have no exposure to it.
B. Strict school system guidelines. This is to prevent lawsuits and have been adopted as best practices, heavy handed or not.
C.The kid has issues/is under watch for behavioral issues. They may have been years ago, but a reputation as 'that kid who freaked that one time in sixth grade' can carry.
lilgammer123 wrote: All jokes aside its just another demonstration of how America has an awful school system...
This is a commonly claimed true thing that isn't actually held up by international testing. If you leave aside the Asian countries that cook the books, then the US falls pretty much around the middle of the pack, or slightly below the middle depending on which subject you're looking at. The US system isn't awful, it is at worst slightly below average.
And then if you look closer at the figures you see the US actually excels in extra programs for high performing students and in support programs for low performing students, and then what's happening actually starts to make sense - when you put a lot of extra resources in the top 10% and the bottom 10% then you have slightly less resources for the middle students, and international comparisons focus heavily on the median student.
The other issue impacting US results is equality across schools - because so much funding comes from local government then wealthy school districts have an abundance of resources, meaning lots of money spent on marginal programs, while poor districts have a scarcity, meaning they don't fund programs that could really improve education standards.
Sebster has the way of it. It also depends heavily on school district and state. For example if you are going to a City of Chicago or Houston school - don't. Go somewhere else.
From then on, I was allowed to take my self imposed, "mandatory" nap during that class
That's how AP English was for me. I spent so much time correcting my teacher's grammatical errors and misinterpretations of various literary themes that she eventually just told me I could sit in the back and sleep.
Fun memories, but I got to sleep because the teachers were cool and not mad.
I've worked since I turned 16 and spend my Junior and Senior year tired as heck. Took AP biology and chemistry and spend the majority of the time sleeping in class. Not even "try to hide it" sleeping, but flat out "face on desk drooling" sleeping. She never said a word to me about it. One time some other kid fell asleep and she started to yell at him and told him to wake up and get his nose in the book to study. He started to bitch and moan about how it's not fair because I sleep all the time. So she started talking to me to wake me up and the conversation went like this:
teacher: "d-usa, wake up!"
me: (half asleep) "huh, what, hello...."
teacher: "d-usa, what's your average in my class?"
me: (no idea what is going on) ".....96-97...?"
teacher: (to me) "ok, go back to sleep" (to other guy) "you have a D average, when you carry an A you get to sleep"
We have more in common than I realized, except I was the one with the D average... Hey learning 2+2 is HARD!
So you don't think the American Education has deteriorated of the last few decades?
Well, given that in the 50s-70s we were churning kids through school with the intent of them going to work for NASA, some nuclear reactor/agency, Boeing to design/build the next badass bomber/fighter jets, etc. And now, we're making everyone "Feel good" about themselves, and trying to push that star athlete up to the big University so that he can Sports for a living.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: And now, we're making everyone "Feel good" about themselves, and trying to push that star athlete up to the big University so that he can Sports for a living.
And then they enter the workforce with inflated and unwarranted senses of self-esteem, and they have an existential crisis when they realize they're not really as smart or special as everyone's been telling them through their formative years.
For real, at my current job we have to take training on how to deal with Millenials without hurting their feelings. I am not kidding.
For real, at my current job we have to take training on how to deal with Millenials without hurting their feelings. I am not kidding.
That's screwed up. I had a job where I reduced one of them (a guy) to tears once. I dodged getting in trouble by virtue of the fact that I was right. Also, the fact he was a guy probably helped. "Brad, you're not wrong. You're just kind of a dick sometimes." True story.
They really are different though. My 18 year old brother is one of the most timid, sensitive, unsure of himself people I've ever seen. The high school we went to has a hallowed tradition of the seniors playing some sort of prank on the teachers/other students (it's a fairly small school). He told me that that the class flash mobbed and had a "hug in". He was actually almost as disappointed in them as I was.
Also, isn't training with the intent of treating some people unlike others kind of discriminatory?
I don't really think it was discriminatory, it was more like 'cultural sensitivity training', or something like that. It was couched as being anti-discriminatory.
The majority of millennial bashing is rooted in what Sebster referred to as the "golden age" fallacy.
I'm not saying they don't have issues, as every generation has issues that they face, but it's been massively blown out of proportion. There are plenty of hardworking, responsible, ambitious millennials, and the idea that it's all about making everybody "feel good" and providing an inflated sense of self-esteem is a crock of gak.
First off, there's nothing wrong with having a healthy amount of self-esteem. If anything, I think low self-esteem is a more common issue than an over-inflated sense of self-esteem.
Believe me, the majority of millennials are all too aware of their status, especially since so many people love to fething bring it up all the time.
So you don't think the American Education has deteriorated of the last few decades?
Well, given that in the 50s-70s we were churning kids through school with the intent of them going to work for NASA, some nuclear reactor/agency, Boeing to design/build the next badass bomber/fighter jets, etc. And now, we're making everyone "Feel good" about themselves, and trying to push that star athlete up to the big University so that he can Sports for a living.
Well, I went to school in the '70s. And I sure as hell never had regular homework as a first-grader. My son did...4 nights a week. It's going to increase in second grade, with some foreign language homework alongside whatever else he gets. I'm also pretty sure that I got more recess than he gets.
I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with "Singapore math." It's how they teach basic math now, at least in our district. One of the first things they learn are number bonds, which are a pictoral thing to help them with some of the concepts. Anyway, I was helping him with his homework, and realized that one of the number bond problems was in fact an algebra question. The variables were hearts and diamonds instead of As and Bs, but it was 100% algebra...in first-grade homework.
TL;DR -- I think that the American educational system is a case of haves and have-nots right now. IMO, the good schools are pushing kids pretty damn hard academically. I am CONFIDENT in saying the average kid in my son's class was well ahead of the average kid in my 1st grade class. The problem is with the failing schools, most of which also have no easy solutions.
Hordini wrote: The majority of millennial bashing is rooted in what Sebster referred to as the "golden age" fallacy.
I'm not saying they don't have issues, as every generation has issues that they face, but it's been massively blown out of proportion. There are plenty of hardworking, responsible, ambitious millennials, and the idea that it's all about making everybody "feel good" and providing an inflated sense of self-esteem is a crock of gak.
First off, there's nothing wrong with having a healthy amount of self-esteem. If anything, I think low self-esteem is a more common issue than an over-inflated sense of self-esteem.
Believe me, the majority of millennials are all too aware of their status, especially since so many people love to fething bring it up all the time.
Don't feel bad. Generation X got gakked on too when we came up to the big leagues
hotsauceman1 wrote: When I was in high school I wrote a poem about how angry I am, how I hate everyone in the school system and how I wish we would all die. My teacher submitted it to a poetry compilation and had me read it outloud. What would happen now if I did that?
I took a creative writing class in HS and wrote a short story titled "Death of a Santa Claus"; it was submitted and published in a city-wide publication.
Unfortunately, we're not living in the same time just like when I was a kid (8 or 9), I could ride my bike all around the neighborhood and now parents generally don't let their kids go out of sight. Different world, unless you graduated last year; in that case, different city/school district.
I can one up that. Talked about the end of the world and was asked to read that at my schools poetry slam, which I declined. Not because I felt embarrassed or flaterred, but because I was angry that someone else didn't get asked to, where my poem was actually quite bad compared to my friends.
Man I wrote so many screwed up stories in high school, I am surprised they didn't flag them instantly. I mean one if you followed the context clues was about a male who was basically invisible to everyone but himself, and moments later he found out he was dead all along and simply faded from existance because he wasn't important.
And then there was another where a guy held up a store and shot everyone. But then he died. And some how I made it humorous.
And no I don't do drugs or hallucinogenics, I just think out of the box for story.
And my goodness this story.
When I was a kid i wrote about master chief driving a warthog and hitting a teacher, because I hated the teacher so damn much. My teacher was so impressed they gave me an A for creativity and writing ability. And idea to think outside the box.
Now I am thinking I might of been arrested and thrown into an asylum. My goodness, they must think the Demolished Man is some sort of antisematic book by now.
I can one up that. Talked about the end of the world and was asked to read that at my schools poetry slam, which I declined. Not because I felt embarrassed or flaterred, but because I was angry that someone else didn't get asked to, where my poem was actually quite bad compared to my friends.
Man I wrote so many screwed up stories in high school, I am surprised they didn't flag them instantly. I mean one if you followed the context clues was about a male who was basically invisible to everyone but himself, and moments later he found out he was dead all along and simply faded from existance because he wasn't important.
What's funny is, my Freshman year, we had a poetry assignment... it was, for 45-50 minutes, write any poem you wanted. and turn it in. The next day, after grading the teacher offered to read for the class, anonymously, each poem, and have students guess who wrote what... Well, I wrote a poem all about a singular spot on the wall within the classroom it had been bugging me for awhile. Meanwhile, my GF at the time, wrote a very Poe-esque thing about ravens plucking the eyes out of a dead body or something, and the whole class thought that *I* wrote it . The red pen note on my poem for me from the teacher basically read: damn you, now I can't help but notice that spot, and now it annoys me as well!!
I discovered early in year 9, that I could erase parts of the pictures in my science text book with a regular eraser. I then spent most of the year modifying the cartoons with a fine-liner so that all the people were masturbating and stuff. I tried to do it tastefully so it looked like it was just printed that way. I remember one especially funny one of this guy who was supposed to have a stomach ache (something to do with acid), but he was all sweating and rubbing his stomach in the cartoon. Eventually I got busted because my friend was laughing so much.
My teacher was mortified (to put it mildly). The look of disgust on her face was priceless, but aside from that nothing happened, they didn't even make me pay for the book.
timetowaste85 wrote: This is the dumbest thing I ever heard of (okay, I have actually heard dumber). I'm glad to be out of the school system. This is a colossal joke.
Right? I remember writing all kinds of wierd violent stuff even in middle school. My teachers always encouraged the creative aspect, while making sure I understood the clear distinction between fiction and reality.\
I would not have survived in today's school system.
Way back when your neighbors may well have had pet dinosaurs (mid 1980's), I used to run games of \the first edition of Steve Jackson's Killer ( http://www.sjgames.com/killer/ ) in my high school. A couple of the teachers knew about it and turned the other way, or flat out enjoyed hearing how it was going (we had some VERY creative kills). The school admin caught on it was going on when some copy cat group was not as discrete as my group and announced it was outlawed and they would suspend folks caught playing. I successfully ran 3 more games with zero suspensions after they started cracking down, just by being pretty picky about who was allowed to play. Very good times.
I can one up that. Talked about the end of the world and was asked to read that at my schools poetry slam, which I declined. Not because I felt embarrassed or flaterred, but because I was angry that someone else didn't get asked to, where my poem was actually quite bad compared to my friends.
Man I wrote so many screwed up stories in high school, I am surprised they didn't flag them instantly. I mean one if you followed the context clues was about a male who was basically invisible to everyone but himself, and moments later he found out he was dead all along and simply faded from existance because he wasn't important.
What's funny is, my Freshman year, we had a poetry assignment... it was, for 45-50 minutes, write any poem you wanted. and turn it in. The next day, after grading the teacher offered to read for the class, anonymously, each poem, and have students guess who wrote what... Well, I wrote a poem all about a singular spot on the wall within the classroom it had been bugging me for awhile. Meanwhile, my GF at the time, wrote a very Poe-esque thing about ravens plucking the eyes out of a dead body or something, and the whole class thought that *I* wrote it . The red pen note on my poem for me from the teacher basically read: damn you, now I can't help but notice that spot, and now it annoys me as well!!
Thats the best bit about writing classes. When you make your teacher notice something so dumb its brillant.
Hordini wrote: The majority of millennial bashing is rooted in what Sebster referred to as the "golden age" fallacy.
Yep. All the generalisations that get thrown around about millennials today used to get thrown around about Gen-Y a few years ago, and Gen-X before them.
I mean sure, millennials tend to have little idea of their real worth (either over-valuaing it as is often complained about, or under-valuing it as you point out Houdini)... but that isn't because there is something unique and extraordinary in their upbringing as opposed to all other generations that have ever existed. It's because they're kids, and they haven't had the time yet to build lives for themselves, or have their skills and resourcefulness tested in the real world.
That will change, of course, because those kids will become adults just the same as the rest of us. And then most of them will look at the next generation coming through and observe those young people are acting in immature ways. And instead of just concluding that they're kids acting like kids, they'll conclude that this new generation is somehow magically different to all generations who ever came before, and they'll give that generation it's own stupid name, and start talking about their immature behaviour as if it were permanent and forget that kids grow up, just like they always have.
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