So I didn't see a thread anywhere on the new Imperial Assassins so I said I'd start one. I'll include my vague ramblings on their rules in a Spoiler tag if anyone wants a run down on them from someone who hasn't any real experience with how they were previously. Also if I have contravened any rules please let me know. No points costs or exact rules wording will be included.
Spoiler:
They all have an individual entry rather than a set stat line and special rules with add ons. Saying that they all went up by one wound and in stat line are no different from each other. Aside for the wound there doesn't look to be much change. Their individual Special Rules I will mention below if anything stood out. They all though have Fearless, Infiltrate and Move Through Cover as well as Lightning Reflexes which provides a 4+ Invulnerable save and removes the Init penalty for assaulting through difficult terrain. On top of that they have a penalty to your opponent's Look Out Sir rolls of -2 and a rule which stops ICs from Joining them (they are not ICs themselves) and if an Assassin is your Warlord, they gain no Warlord Trait.
They can be taken as an Assassin detachment of a single Elite with the special rule that if the enemy warlord dies to an assassin you get a Victory point. This may not be so difficult. I am seriously considering throwing one or more into my non-Imperial armies and just putting them away from the rest of the army Calidus and it's 1" infiltrate might be ideal for that though the rest wouldn't be too bad.
They also have a formation of one of each assassin that provides "Preferred Enemy (Warlord)" and the previously mentioned bonus victory point.
The Vindicare with his precision shots on all successful to hit rolls, combined with the Shield Breaker for no invul and his spy mask for Ignores cover looks like the best one. Or switch to hellfire for 2+ to wound or Turbo penetrator for D3 wounds. The Penetrator also counts as S10 against vehicles. (no more +4D6 penetration)
This guy frightens me, being able to reach out across the board and murder pretty much any Sergeant or special weapon. Ork Warlords are in a bad way as one Turbo Penetrator shot could kill a Warboss due to the lack of Invul saves. (2+ to hit, reroll on a 4+. A hit is allocated to the Warboss, 4+ to wound and then d3 wounds... AP2 and Ignores Cover)
He also has Blind grenades.
The Callidus could be fun, allowing Seize rerolls (important if you just infiltrated 2" away from the Enemy Warlord) and -3 to the first reserves roll.
Also has Fleet, Hit and Run and Precision Strikes. Polymorphine allows the Callidus to Infiltrate anywhere provided they are more than 1" from any enemy unit whether in Line of Sight or not. The Callidus can also choose to move on from the enemy board edge should they be held in reserves. The enemy can only fire Snap Shots at the Callidus on the first game turn or the turn in which they arrived.
The Neural Shredder is an AP2 template that wounds on a 4+. T
CC weapons look fun though not amazing, the "Phase Sword" doesn't allow Invul saves on a to wound of 6. Understandable really given the Vindicare only has one shot a turn whereas on a charge this guy has 6 attacks.
The Poison blade is AP- but poisoned 3+ and Rending.
The Eversor looks to be a bit of a beast, I would not want him to get the charge.
He has Feel no Pain, Furious Charge a Power Sword and Meltabombs. On top of that when he dies he inflicts a S5 ap- hit to all models within D6"
He also fires his pistol 4 times whenever he shoots, split between Needle or Bolt (your choice per shot) and Overwatches at full BS
Now for the fun part. The Eversor in juiced on Frenzon which allows him to charge 3D6 combined and adds 3 attacks on the charge rather than one (For a total 8 attacks) and can attack with his Power Sword or Neural gaunlet which is S User AP - Fleshbane and Shred.
Finally the Culexus could be the best or worst assassin depending on what your opponent takes. If he takes a Psyker heavy list he just shot himself in the foot. Truly.
So for gaks n' giggles the Culexus has Preferred Enemy Psykers and Fear. Armour saves cannot be taken against wounds from the Culexus's close combat attacks. (He has no weapons) Any roll of a 6 to wound is Instant death. Any wound is instant death against a Psyker.
Any Psykers, friend or foe within 12" have -3 LD, do not generate warp charges and only harness successfully on a 6. The Culexus cannot be targeted or affected by psychic powers. Any blessing or malediction affecting a unit immediately cease to be in effect if the unit moves within 12" of the Culexus...
Finally the Animus Speculum is fired in the Psychic phase and cannot be used to overwatch.
It is a range 18" S5 AP1 Assault X where X is equal to the combined mastery levels of all psyker units, friend or foe within 12" + up to 3 of your own generated warp charges.
Finally if the Culexus is targeted with shooting or close combat attacks you resolve it as BS1 or WS1 as appropriate.
With Infiltrate I am sorely tempted to take a Vindicare or Callidus in my non-Imperial Army. I should be able to avoid the worst part of Come the Apocalypse and honestly if they live up to their expectations (That is to say do something and then die), I don't believe they will be around long enough for One Eye Open to kick in.
Even if it is just putting a Vindicare in a ruin and aiming to kill squad characters and special weapons might be enough. While he has only one shot a turn, he should be able to remove a Melta gun or equivalent from a squad from pretty much anywhere on the battlefield.
The Callidus might also be good. Infiltrate up turn one, go for first player turn and target something that the AP2 Template that wounds on a 4+ can do some damage. Ride out the turn with the snapshot requirement and even if you get assaulted Hit and Run for a next turn assault assuming you survive, which shouldn't be too bad given if he doesn't challenge you you can use your Precision Strikes to again take out special weapons.
I think this guy could play havoc with an enemy in their deployment zone, particularly if you go for a soft target like a Devastator squad first with the Neural Shredder.
Any thoughts or am I just going mad thinking these guys could be a good addition to most army lists?
Dios mio that vindicare is railgun that hits on a 2+ and ignores cover. A weapon that can be taken by any army and put in a corner to do it's business.That is scary.
It is pretty crazy as a single assassin can be taken as a detachment and as far as I can see, (and I may just be blind here) they are not unique so you can in theory take more than on of the same Assassin in a single army.
Dat Eversor tho. I like it. It's not spectacular against most hard-hitting enemies, but dear LORD will he tear through chaff like it's nobody's business.
I like to buffs to the Vindicare and Evesor, and think the Callidus and Culexus are dumb to the point of being borderline game breaking.
A single assassin form a dataslate just provided better anti-demon that the entire Grey Knights codex. I'll let that sink in.
Personally I'm not a fan of anything that greatly alters a way an army can play. An infiltrating assassin that can't be reliably shot at or charged, all with a 12" bubble will ruin a lot of armies.
The Callidus' new -3 to first reserve roll screws over any flier or army with one unit in reserves. I find both extremely problematic and they're extremely cheap too.
In other words: Everything people hated about the Baron in Seerstar lists just got given to the imperium and psyker heavy armies can't do a thing with that assassin on the field.
One or both will be a staple in every top-table list.
They each got his own "victim of choice" opponent type who he excels against, yet is of mediocre value against other things.
And pretty much anyone can get them in his army.
This gives them a unique status: Meta brakers.
They simply brake up the meta by EXISTING. if any one army type becomes dominant (competitively speaking) , people will simply splash in the appropriate assassin and make short work of it.
This dataslate single-highhandedly creates a "lead disadvantage" state, when anything that is too good, will fail as it gets countered. the road to victory will no longer be gimmek units that require spesific counter, as anyone can have them now-its to be either so balanced that no counter works, or just throw something unexpected at the table and annihilate the opponent's silver bullets with something that is weak to gold.
By the fact that they brake apart given armies, they actually make the game more balanced competitively, as you can't trust any one trick-no matter how good it is, as there is an assassin out there to kill it.
Psyker batteries-meet Culexus.
Hidden centerpiece units-Vindi will take care.
Gating deathstar-Callidus will do a number on it before it starts jumping.
T1-2 assault rush-will it bled? Eversor says yes.
They even counter each other up to a given point. vindi will make short work of cule and probably ever before they get too close, ever will tear calli and cule apart, calli can probably take down vindi without too much trouble, and a pair of cule will shut each other down as none can afford to get too close;
As for cule in general, I find it amusing how he shuts down your own psy power as well. unlike old times, if you want to fuel him with psyker batteries-the psykers will do nothing BUT fuel him.
But the enemy has GOT to have something that does not rely on psykers in order to kill it, not that its hard, he's isolated and on the frontlines, without anything that makes it incredibly hard to kill him with simple bolter spam. (you gonna need a few though, shooting at BS1 and all)
And none of the above works to any extend on an army based on zerging you with just too many worthless dudes.
The Vindicare Assassin has been nerfed slightly. His Shield Breaker bullets no longer destroys shield invulnerable saves, only ignores the invulnerable save for his own shots. I was looking forward to owning one but now I don't know.
And precision shots are only performed on a 6, not on every shot, from what I can remember looking at it briefly earlier today.
I'd agree with the Vindicare, except characters in blobs are fairly safe from him, needing to be struck with a 6 and then fail the admittedly-modified LoS to be then wounded (probably not killed). Combine with this that Shield Breakers no longer dissolve invul saves and that a Str10 + d6 rending shot is, per my instinct and brief number googling, worse than a 4d6 rending for AV penning and I'll say that the Vindicare should be relegated to maybe non-psychic MC killing or 3+/2+ unit killing.
Ah, my mistake. I read that bit ad the assassin having the rule, not the shots having them. Still worse for enemies actually being ABLE to LoS the shots, but he is better than I thought.
Yeah, ICs are still more or less safe from the Vindicare (4+ to wound and 4+ LOS means at least 4 shots will be needed to get one through, although Hellfire rounds improve the wounding chance).
Cullexus FTW, my buddy plays DP-heavy Nurrgle Daemon list (add Belakor for the "fun" of it), I'm gonna hit him in the nuts with a Cullexus riding solo in a Land Raider and shove him up his line. Oh, you mean you don't get to generate 20 warp charges this round? Bummer.
In all seriousness though, as mentioned above, each of them excel at their roles, though I will concede that the Vindicare seems to have been nerfed a bit. He will still be a great way to remove critical models from the enemy (infantry or vehicle)
The Callidus can seriously wreck some enemy backlines, I can see it ruining a Tau player's day.
The Eversor is an infantry CC mulcher (MEQ or worse).
And the Cullexus will be the absolute bane of Eldar and Daemon armies.
I'm very much tempted to field the formation (all 4 of the assassins) in a list to see how they work out. That's a lot of points but I can see them doing some serious work.
I am thinking the Callidus is what the Lictor should have been. Actually I may "counts as" both the Ever and Callidus with Lictors in fun Nid lists. The CTA ally penalties should have minimum effect on these guys.
Actually, I think the vindicare received the biggest BUFF of the four.
Yea, his stopping power is slightly reduced, but he still have more than enough of that, his problem was that with 36" range and the need of clear LoS, he usually only had one shot, maximum two, before being gunned down by basic infantry as a "by the way" manuver. and heavy cover made these shots unreliable.
Now with whooping 72" and the ability to outright ignore cover, he is assured to at least get a few shots off unless given proper attention, and make these shots count.
I think the Cullexus is best one now, being able to be shot at and hit in cc from foes using only BS/WS 1. Plus nullifying all psychic buffs within 12"
Yea, but of the 4 he's the most silver bullet.
Outright useless if you encounter tau, necron, dark eldar or most orks, and limited use against most space marines, imperial knights and such.
The others are at least somewhat useful no matter what your opponents has.
LOVE the new assassins, how strong they are for tournaments is going to be 100% down to if they rule them as a dataslate like cypher/belakor or if they eat up your second slot.
Culexus is BALLER. makes running no psykers a much more viable strategy, helps you turn daemon factories against them via shutting down and getting more shots. He is the cheapest one to boot. But he still has the weakness of being targetted by blasts/flamers and the like(since its not snap shots)
His weapon is still useful because it gets at least 1-3 extra shots from your own dice if you are not casting.
I am super pumped by this. The assassins force you to take somewhat balanced lists because as was said above, one will LITERALLY wreck your gak if you are too focused on one aspect.
Leth wrote: LOVE the new assassins, how strong they are for tournaments is going to be 100% down to if they rule them as a dataslate like cypher/belakor or if they eat up your second slot.
Culexus is BALLER. makes running no psykers a much more viable strategy, helps you turn daemon factories against them via shutting down and getting more shots. He is the cheapest one to boot. But he still has the weakness of being targetted by blasts/flamers and the like(since its not snap shots)
His weapon is still useful because it gets at least 1-3 extra shots from your own dice if you are not casting.
I am super pumped by this. The assassins force you to take somewhat balanced lists because as was said above, one will LITERALLY wreck your gak if you are too focused on one aspect.
Or if we give up the antiquated 2-source restriction and adopt a more comprehensive 7th edition organization
I think my old Pariah is going to be a new counts as Culexus as a detachment to my Crons. I think it fits the old fluff quite well. I just have to watch for the one eye open rule.
There were Assassins, then they were given to the Grey Knights. Then the Grey Knights had half of their units taken away, and half of what was left nerfed into uselessness (including their once-best weapon, the Psycannon). Now, one of the Assassins, plucked from our codex, is now a super Psyker-killer.
These new Assassins look to be gamebreaking. And I'm not fond of the idea of list tayloring to crush an opponent, which is what several people on here seem to be suggesting. That if an army is being played too well, that you should just bring a game breaking Assassin to render their skill and strategy pointless.
If that's the case, the new Assassins are far, far worse than any LoW added to the standard game.
The anti-psyker assassin is pretty strong againgst chaos demons, grey knights, and elder. I don't think he's gonna put fear in many other armies though.
The vindicare got a nice boost with the extra wound, but he's still gonna be killed early from a lazcannon or missle.
The other 2 are fun, but they never live long enough to do much. Their main virtue is that your opponent has to waste a squad on them instead of shooting other targets.
I think it's a pretty sick dataslate o ya anyone can use them in the imperuim. And it's an x factor now you have to deal qith other wise go ill ignore That. Until it messes up your plans lol.
Get a Hive Tyrant within 6( range for Psychic Scream) of X Psyker - 3 LD from Shadows
Infiltrate a Culexus within 12 ( staying 12 inches away from the Hive Tyrant, tricky I know.) - 3LD
That's already a psyker at - 6 LD so you if you psychic scream at them - that could be pretty brutal as it stands but if you really wanted to take it up a notch you could add in death leaper for a further D3 on the LD of a single character.
I'm not sold on the Vindecare. At a single shot per turn, he's going to get at most 7 shots total.
Trying to snipe out an IC with a 4++ that has anyone who can LoS for him is not going to be all that effective. 1/2 chance to wound, 1/2 chance to not be LoSed away = .25 wounds per shot.
He does better against guys with no invuln save because he can switch to the D3 wound or wound on a 2+ ammo.
Unless the enemy army is really, really depending on one specific model surviving and that model is a single wound guy...
And vs. vehicles, he will pen light vehicles, but that's a 1/6th chance of an explodes now... also likely not making back his points unless he's shooting something big. Shooting at AV 14 he now has a 1/3rd chance to pen and a 1/6th chance to blow up. He could shoot at a Land Raider all game and fail to destroy it on average.
The Callidus looks like she'd be interesting in a list with some other infiltrators, drop pods, or scouts that can prevent the enemy from focusing all their fire on removing her. She'd be especially good in a list that has other bonuses to seizing the initiative as being able to reliably go first makes her positioning that much more devastating with that AP2 template. Also it give you a turn to rush your other units into the opponent's face and give him other options to shoot at.
I downloaded the preview. Read it. Then paid £9.99 for the dataslate. When I downloaded the dataslate and opened it - it now just has the preview pages avaliable... What's happened?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can anyone help me with this please?
I downloaded the preview. Read it. Then paid £9.99 for the dataslate. When I downloaded the dataslate and opened it - it now just has the preview pages avaliable... What's happened?
The increased range on the vindicare is huge with the ignores cover. Might not make his points back from shooting character but will pull his weight by sniping out IG Priests, Powerfist Guys, Grimoire bearers and the like. The fear opponents will have that this guy can remove models key to their plans will cause them to play differently and generally thats good for you.
The Calidus, I love the passive buffs but see the main use as infiltrating next to a particular model in a squad and then just AP:2 flamering it to death. Return swings are less effective on the first turn and positioning will be key, I can see alot of wasted effort poured into killing it.
The Evessor, probably my least favorite just because it doesn't really do anything I can't do with normal units. Sure they're very killing and have good range but I don't need a unit mulcher, that's what my guns are for.
Cullexus, this one is situationally very good and the chance of a armour ignoring Instand death CC attack against anything is pretty scary.
People of saying he totally nerfs opposing psykers but remember he only moves 6 + D6 a turn and the opponent generates psykic points after moving so will likely be out of his area.
Strangely I see this guy as a bodyguard, moving around near your own (non psykic) deathstar and protecting it and de-buffing enemy deathstars.
All in all a really good job, each more deadly in their own particular field and more survivable than before but still flimsy enough that they are easily taken down if they get exposed. Well done GW.
New khorne champion has arrived! Eversor!
Finally able to embody khornes spite for the weakness of the psyker! Callexus!
^ I'm with wisdomls on the vindicare. He's woefully inefficient at dealing with multiwound/invul/IC targets. He should be prioritizing linchpin models in enemy units like banners, sergeants/upgrade-characters, special weapons, and stuff like that. That 35ish point target might not seem like much, but many units revolve entirely around them. Take them out, and the whole squad becomes crippled in its purpose.
I downloaded the preview. Read it. Then paid £9.99 for the dataslate. When I downloaded the dataslate and opened it - it now just has the preview pages avaliable... What's happened?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can anyone help me with this please?
I downloaded the preview. Read it. Then paid £9.99 for the dataslate. When I downloaded the dataslate and opened it - it now just has the preview pages avaliable... What's happened?
if you've paid for it, just delete it and download it again. should fix the issue.
I would be tempted to put the Culexus inside a stormraven. Protects him and gives him speed, and he stays inside. Move over to enemy blessed squad - measure 12" from hull. And blast the squad with the rest of my army.
ForeverARookie wrote: There were Assassins, then they were given to the Grey Knights. Then the Grey Knights had half of their units taken away, and half of what was left nerfed into uselessness (including their once-best weapon, the Psycannon). Now, one of the Assassins, plucked from our codex, is now a super Psyker-killer.
These new Assassins look to be gamebreaking. And I'm not fond of the idea of list tayloring to crush an opponent, which is what several people on here seem to be suggesting. That if an army is being played too well, that you should just bring a game breaking Assassin to render their skill and strategy pointless.
If that's the case, the new Assassins are far, far worse than any LoW added to the standard game.
Or the threat of them will force people to shift how they play their armies and what they bring. Meaning less deathstars. Meaning more fun. You play summoning farm daemons (not a good army but crappy to play against) well now you could run into a Callexus(sp?). Same with Seer Council. Same w/Invisibile Beast Pack or Centurions. GK don't worry about a Callexus to much simply because they aren't reliant on their powers to function. They're powers are a booster.
The Callexus, simply by existing, seriously realigns 40k. In a good way. As for the others they are fun and have their uses. The Callidus in particular is standing out to me but overall non are breaking the bank awesome. I might field the formation once I convert up some awesomely appropriate models. Just to try them all out on the table at the same time
Man, all these guys are so tempting! Suddenly there is a counter to a lot of powerful builds, but in a tournament setting it will be quite a gamble to bring an assassin if you're set up against armies you're not specialized to take out.
Overall I'm really satisfied with this dataslate, both the rules and the fluff are interesting.
I'll probbaly run the Callidus, it seems very versatile and it's the only assassin model I own which also helps me decide
My daemons are crying. First they're nerfed with the 7th edition, now they're being kicked while they're own by the GK and assassins. GW sure do hate Chaos.
7th edition made Daemon FMCs pretty awful, and made daemon shooting close to non existent. GK further counter everything that daemons can do in assault, and the cellexus screws over the rest! Unless the new Daemons 7th edition codex is really really strong with undercosted and overpowered units throughout, they'll be nigh unplayable with so many hard counters. Admittedly they still have some good match ups, but no other army has match ups that shut them down so completely!
Also, the vindicare will upset my FS bomb. As if the 7th didn't weaken weaken that enough already either.
To say GW don't care about the competitive game, they sure are producing a lot of stuff that mixes up the meta and counters the old power builds.
Asura Varuna wrote: My daemons are crying. First they're nerfed with the 7th edition, now they're being kicked while they're own by the GK and assassins. GW sure do hate Chaos.
7th edition made Daemon FMCs pretty awful, and made daemon shooting close to non existent. GK further counter everything that daemons can do in assault, and the cellexus screws over the rest! Unless the new Daemons 7th edition codex is really really strong with undercosted and overpowered units throughout, they'll be nigh unplayable with so many hard counters. Admittedly they still have some good match ups, but no other army has match ups that shut them down so completely!
Also, the vindicare will upset my FS bomb. As if the 7th didn't weaken weaken that enough already either.
To say GW don't care about the competitive game, they sure are producing a lot of stuff that mixes up the meta and counters the old power builds.
Depending on what type of list you play, Daemons are still super strong.
I faced a 3x GD + 1 DP + Screamers + Tittyhorses + Nurgle Flies + something -list a few weeks back. He basically just ran over me, and managed to summon 40 demons in the process. The target saturation was just so massive that there was nothing you could do - the 4 big guys demand an armys whole attention to kill even one per turn, and that's a stretch. Meanwhile everything else is closing in. If you split fire it´s even worse - nothing will die and they will all reach you by the end of turn 2.
I have never been schooled that hard in my 13 years of 40k.
I agree in a tourney setting taking an assassin will be a gamble in many cases.
I think the vindicare will be the best all around model, it may not be amazing at dropping someones warlord in 1 shot, but it will be good at popping off light vehicles, and mercing out special/heavy weapons/squad leaders which will have an impact in various points of conflict on the table.
Im not sold on the callidus, the rules look better, but the fact that the turn you show up your not assaulting is a big deal. Sure you can maybe neural shredder a squad, but even with only being fired at with snapshots is not that big of a deal, reference death leaper. I think the bonus to sieze and the reduction of reserve rolls however is a big deal and the real reasont o consider the callidus.
If you end up playing against a psyker heavy army obviously the cullexus is amazing. Even if it just disrupts all the psykers for 1 turn, it would probably be enough for you to focus on the unit that would be getting massively buffed with all you have and making them either nonexistant or a nonfactor.
if you end up not playing against a psyker army, hes pretty lacklaster.
Given that what many people consider top builds that have deathstars with invis something or other + a bunch of other blessings, its a pretty safe bet it would be useful somewhere in a tournament.
Asura Varuna wrote: My daemons are crying. First they're nerfed with the 7th edition, now they're being kicked while they're own by the GK and assassins. GW sure do hate Chaos.
7th edition made Daemon FMCs pretty awful, and made daemon shooting close to non existent. GK further counter everything that daemons can do in assault, and the cellexus screws over the rest! Unless the new Daemons 7th edition codex is really really strong with undercosted and overpowered units throughout, they'll be nigh unplayable with so many hard counters. Admittedly they still have some good match ups, but no other army has match ups that shut them down so completely!
Also, the vindicare will upset my FS bomb. As if the 7th didn't weaken weaken that enough already either.
To say GW don't care about the competitive game, they sure are producing a lot of stuff that mixes up the meta and counters the old power builds.
Grey Knights got hit just as hard. We have some special rules for fighting Daemons, but the cost and situation use of them prevent them from being reliable choices for the army. The Flying Monstrous Creatures I've faced did just fine as they ignored my Banishment by using their Jink instead, and they used Psychic Shriek so they weren't penalized on their attacks. The only reliable infantry weapon for the PAGK with more than a 12" range is the base Storm Bolter. The Psilencer is too situational to be considered (even with Force), and the Psycanon's new Salvo rule without increased range makes it useless to PAGK on the move.
We also lost our Inquisition (the most easily gamebreaking part of the army) and our Assassins (The Culexus is just as much bane to us as it is to you).
Our HQ is now the Librarian (Best Value). Our Troop is the Terminator (Because SS are worthless now). Our Elite is the Paladin (Because Purifiers lost the usefulness of the Psycannon, and Dreadnoughts lost the Psy--fleman build). Our Heavy is the Dreadknight (Because Purgation Squads are worthless with only a stationary 24" range. Fast is the Storm Raven (Because Interceptors lost the usefulness of the Psycannon, have no Invulnerable save, and take Dangerous Terrain tests if they jump into Terrain for a cover save).
Grey Knights have been reduced to a mono-build and requires Allies for:
-Anything beyond 24"
-Any sort of armor outside of close combat.
-Anything that Flies.
We can take Land Raiders, but they lost Psychic Pilot, which is a major hit.
blaktoof wrote: if you end up not playing against a psyker army, hes pretty lacklaster.
How so? Even against non-Psykers he has a 18", S5 AP1 and Assault 3 weapon. He still attacks at I7 with AP1 and a chance for Instant Death. And you still have to fight/shoot at him with WS/BS1.
I think of him as a good unit that becomes insane when you fight against Psykers. Seeing as my next battle is against Daemons, Grey Knights and Eldar I will probably get him before that day
How bad is the new Culexus really?
It's not that hard to move out of range before the psychic phase, and then still go invisible. I'm thinking storm raven is about the only usable method of delivery. It's just not that hard to kill this guy, who has to get point blank and doesn't want to be in combat.
I really like the no cover save S10 shot. It's like GW is saying we're sorry about that whole waveserpent thing.
HawaiiMatt wrote: How bad is the new Culexus really?
It's not that hard to move out of range before the psychic phase, and then still go invisible. I'm thinking storm raven is about the only usable method of delivery. It's just not that hard to kill this guy, who has to get point blank and doesn't want to be in combat.
I really like the no cover save S10 shot. It's like GW is saying we're sorry about that whole waveserpent thing.
It still shuts downs the psychic power affect when it gets in range. So in movement phase you get in range with culexus, stop the invisilibty effect and shoot it to bits in shooting phase .
HawaiiMatt wrote: How bad is the new Culexus really?
It's not that hard to move out of range before the psychic phase, and then still go invisible. I'm thinking storm raven is about the only usable method of delivery. It's just not that hard to kill this guy, who has to get point blank and doesn't want to be in combat.
I really like the no cover save S10 shot. It's like GW is saying we're sorry about that whole waveserpent thing.
From what I've read on here, if the Culexus gets close enough he cancels out Psychic buffs as well as preventing powers from being cast. So if you move a unit away from him then make them invisible, he can move up after them (run if he needs to) and cancel out the invisibility before the rest of his army shoots at you.
blaktoof wrote: if you end up not playing against a psyker army, hes pretty lacklaster.
How so?
Even against non-Psykers he has a 18", S5 AP1 and Assault 3 weapon.
He still attacks at I7 with AP1 and a chance for Instant Death.
And you still have to fight/shoot at him with WS/BS1.
I think of him as a good unit that becomes insane when you fight against Psykers.
Seeing as my next battle is against Daemons, Grey Knights and Eldar I will probably get him before that day
He does have an 18" str5 ap 1 gun, but its 0 shots base, you have to put WC into it to get 1-3 shots, which oddly does give you something to do with the WC on your psychic turn if you have no psykers, but otherwise is taking away WC you could use for your psykers. If you are putting your own psykers near him to give him more shots, your losing their WC, and they then manifest on 6s, meaning your probably not putting psykers near him to feed him more shots as 1 shot for 1 ML is pretty situational. The gun is 18" so anything he is shooting at, is firing back and or assaulting if the cullexus is not assaulting.
Firing on him at WS1/BS1 is not that big of a deal, its like having to snapshot but better because you can still fire templates/blasts at him. a 4++ is nice but im guessing he has no other armor, and probably still only as toughness 4 2 wounds. So anything str 8 or higher is IDing him. Any unit that fires on him needs on average 48 shots to kill him if they wound on 4+. If twin linked/or rerolls that number changes to 24 shots. A 10 man dark eldar unit with splinter rifles/splinter with splinter racks in a raider will on average gun him down in 1 go, 24+ork boyz with shootas will on average gun him down in 1 go shooting or overwatch, devgaunts pewpewpewpew. some armies also have access to things like signums which can set your BS to 5, so if you fired say a devestator with a lascannon at him, you could choose the order things are applied and apply the BS1, then the BS5 (since its not snap shots only) and then fire a lascannon/krak missile and have a 37% chance to instagib the culexus. Tau can burn ML tokens to up the BS from 1, of course tau tend to have no psykers so having them fire at the assassin is probably good as its deterring them from shooting other things..
Of course devestator squads are rare, so thats not a big deal.
the cullexus has no assault weapons so has 4 attacks base, 5 on the charge. against non psykers your looking at causing on average 1-2 wounds on the charge, not exactly great. Hitting back at WS1 is a lot easier than shooting at BS1, and shooting at BS1 is not that bad.
I think its a good unit, and a lot better than it was, I just think for a TAC kind of list you are better off taking a different assassin.
if I played a deathstar psyker army, or summoing army, or anything that relied on psykers I would be scared of this guy existing or even possibly showing up. Its not that he would be around all game, but psyker deathstars rely on the sweet warm baby swaddling of invisibility and all their other buffs to be effective, losing that for even 1 turn can turn the battle critically against them.
I for one look forward to seeing assassins in the game, as anything that changes the meta brings freshness to the game.
HawaiiMatt wrote: How bad is the new Culexus really?
It's not that hard to move out of range before the psychic phase, and then still go invisible. I'm thinking storm raven is about the only usable method of delivery. It's just not that hard to kill this guy, who has to get point blank and doesn't want to be in combat.
I really like the no cover save S10 shot. It's like GW is saying we're sorry about that whole waveserpent thing.
It still shuts downs the psychic power affect when it gets in range. So in movement phase you get in range with culexus, stop the invisilibty effect and shoot it to bits in shooting phase .
It's a counter alright. But the culexus is vunerable to shooting. Even if you need 6s to hit, one krak missile can end his day. A bunch of bolters will do the same thing. So you have to keep him out of LOS in the opponents turn and then run him up in your turn to take advantage of the bubble.
I downloaded the preview. Read it. Then paid £9.99 for the dataslate. When I downloaded the dataslate and opened it - it now just has the preview pages avaliable... What's happened?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can anyone help me with this please?
I downloaded the preview. Read it. Then paid £9.99 for the dataslate. When I downloaded the dataslate and opened it - it now just has the preview pages avaliable... What's happened?
if you've paid for it, just delete it and download it again. should fix the issue.
Thanks - all sorted! Turns out it wasn't uploading from my downloads so was just opening the preview again (previous file viewed), sorted it by uploading direct from my memory card. Cheers for the reply though!
I tried out the callidus and eversor assassins in a game of eldar and marines against orks and dark angels and I have to say that both were awsome and well worth their points.
The callidus stopped ravenwing bikers from scouting very far as well as flaming two black knights turn one and on turn two she flamed a combat squad of bikers with sammael and killed two as well as putting a wound on sammael. She then charged him and got two sixes for two wound that ignoringed both armour and invul and dropping him for slay the warlord and bonus victory point from command benefit. And the minus to reserve also kept a outflanking battlewagon with mega armoured big mek and 6 meganobs out of the game for an extra turn.
The eversor infiltrated behind a wall first turn before jumping out turn two and destroying a unit of about 10 burnas in close combat with the help of a dreadnought to soak the overwatch. He then proved surprisingly resilient with 4+ invul and FnP by only taking two wounds from 20 boyz with shootas. Although these then charged him and he killed 3 with overwatch and 2 in close combat before explding and doing 11 wounds to the unit.
When turn three came about the orks and angels were so mauled that they surrendered so I didn't get to try them out further.
Why are you tactical geniuses thinking of running him out in the open like some sort of chump? Just fly him around in the new FOTM (Flyer of the Month) Stormwolf and debuff at leisure.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Why are you tactical geniuses thinking of running him out in the open like some sort of chump? Just fly him around in the new FOTM (Flyer of the Month) Stormwolf and debuff at leisure.
You are than paying a hell lot of points for something that is basically an anti-psyker beacon with wings, that still dies very fast when targeted by meaningful AA.
I mean, the guys who care the most are eldar, demons and nids.
Eldar gotta have some way to drop flyers-not sure how, but I bet they do. demons and nids just take their FMCs and vector it to death.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Why are you tactical geniuses thinking of running him out in the open like some sort of chump? Just fly him around in the new FOTM (Flyer of the Month) Stormwolf and debuff at leisure.
You are than paying a hell lot of points for something that is basically an anti-psyker beacon with wings, that still dies very fast when targeted by meaningful AA.
I mean, the guys who care the most are eldar, demons and nids.
Eldar gotta have some way to drop flyers-not sure how, but I bet they do. demons and nids just take their FMCs and vector it to death.
lol, do you have some sort of RSS feed every time somebody mentions a tactical genius on Dakka?
If you've played competitive 40k in any capacity at all you will realise the top tables are always dominated by some form of psychic Deathstar. 140 points to hard-counter shenanigans like that will make him a MUST TAKE the way every list includes Coteaz and 3 servo skulls. Many of these deathstars have to come to you as well (Seer Council, Beast Star, Grav Star) so flying isn't even strictly necessary.
The Stormwolf is a 12/12/12 flyer with ceramite playing, so it's up there with the Stormraven with one of the hardest flyers to kill- not to mention it outguns the Stormraven. Vector strikes/FMCs have been nerfed to heck, by the way, and no serious tournament player uses FMCs. The Stormraven, in any case, can stand-off and just shoot them to death with twin-linked multi melta, lascannon, and helfrost destructor since it outranges them by a fair bit.
Also Assasins come stock with Infiltrate, so you can just hide him in some convenient nook near the enemy's psykers and pop out at the opportune moment.
Even when facing a non-psyker army, he remains a ridiculously hard to kill unit that pulls its weight in far excess of any effort the enemy should conceivably spend into killing him. Sure, you can burn your template weapons on him, it just means that you're not shooting other, more threatening units in his army.
Even when facing a non-psyker army, he remains a ridiculously hard to kill unit that pulls its weight in far excess of any effort the enemy should conceivably spend into killing him. Sure, you can burn your template weapons on him, it just means that you're not shooting other, more threatening units in his army.
Actually, I think a couple wyverns could drop him pretty much anywhere on the board. They don't care about the BS nerf between twin-linked and barrage. 75% chance per template to put a wound on him, 50% chance for it t get past his invuln, you're looking at a little less than 3 templates on him per wound from a 48" range unit that doesn't need LoS to fire. Incidentally, they also play the role of taking out annoying heavy/special weapons, sgts. etc far better than the Vindecare. Granted the downside is you can't just slap in a couple wyverns without taking some additional guardsmen.
I don't think any of these guys are game breaking unless you're a better tactician than your opponent or he's relying on a one-trick army whose one trick your assassin is a hard counter for (in which case he deserves to lose for bringing an unbalanced army).
Just to clarify on the Culexus, the special rule that nerf attacks against him is
Etherium: Whenever enemy units target a Culexus Assassin with shooting or close combat attacks, the shots/attacks are always resolved as if the attacking unit had Ballistic Skill and Weapon Skill 1.
As i read it, all the signums and markerlights in the galaxy won't help. Unless its a six your not hitting him. Also all assassins have 3 wounds.
Personally while I think these guy might shake thing up abit I don't see them being broken. They are all vulnerable to ID with T4 across the board. They're just another tool in the shed for tactically and a good opportunity to do some nifty kitbashes. I'm thinking a hulking berserker with some skaven tech bits for the Eversor.
You are correct, "fixed" values are applied AFTER modifier like markerlights and signums.
That's why a gun drone has better aim than even a vindi when targeting the cule.
Asmodai Asmodean-I do not reveal my secrets, I've got my ways.
As for FMCs, many armies still feature them, be the the screamerstar or the skyblight armies, and while VS was nerfed against ground targets, its actually better than 6th against air targets now.
Now, while that tactic has its values, be assured that every army that relies on psykers will bothe coming up with an answer to the cule, or simply shift out of the meta.
Assassins regulate themselves, as if they become dominant, the very things they counter phase off meta and render the assassin ineffective.
I'm not convinced by these guys from what I've read. They are still only one model with three wounds which can be instant killed if needed. If they present that much of a threat to your army you will get rid of them whether they are in a flyer, Landraider or bastion.
Aha. Like all those guys doing so well after day one at the BAO incling jy2 and all the FMC players at the ETC. They just can't possibly be taken seriously!
Even when facing a non-psyker army, he remains a ridiculously hard to kill unit that pulls its weight in far excess of any effort the enemy should conceivably spend into killing him. Sure, you can burn your template weapons on him, it just means that you're not shooting other, more threatening units in his army.
Actually, I think a couple wyverns could drop him pretty much anywhere on the board. They don't care about the BS nerf between twin-linked and barrage. 75% chance per template to put a wound on him, 50% chance for it t get past his invuln, you're looking at a little less than 3 templates on him per wound from a 48" range unit that doesn't need LoS to fire. Incidentally, they also play the role of taking out annoying heavy/special weapons, sgts. etc far better than the Vindecare. Granted the downside is you can't just slap in a couple wyverns without taking some additional guardsmen.
I don't think any of these guys are game breaking unless you're a better tactician than your opponent or he's relying on a one-trick army whose one trick your assassin is a hard counter for (in which case he deserves to lose for bringing an unbalanced army).
This last codex seems to have turned the Grey Knights into a one-trick army. All of the variations I played in 6th are void, because they relied on either Psyflemen, or PAGK's with Psycannons. Our only options now are assault as soon as possible, bring as many Dreadknights as you can, and bring allies if you want to do anything else.
And remember, these guys (and gal) were just now plucked out of the Grey Knight Codex.
HawaiiMatt wrote: It's interesting that in the new GK codex that rhinos and razorbacks are fast attack choices, which can also be taken as dedicated transports.
The non-dedicated bit is what I like. Turn 1, I can start with my vindicare(s), inside non-dedicated transport rhinos, firing out of the top.
-Matt
Or better yet, Culexus in a drop pod. Hey daemons/seer councils.
I have my fingers crossed that the culexus' debuff bubble is what the Shadow in the Warp will look like in the next Nid dex.
I know I'm probably dreaming, but can you imagine if they actually un-fecked the nid dex...It would make them actually competative!!
Oh, I know that nids can be competative...I placed equal 3rd in a tourney just yesterday...It's just that they are completely outclassed by top tier armies like eldar and tau (and yesterday annihilator barrage/doom scythe spam). I prefer playing any kind of game on the hard setting-i'd just like to be able to turn it down sometimes
Deadshot: All successful To Hit rolls made by a Vindicare Assassin, excluding Snap Shots, have the Precision Shots special rule.
if I read this thing RAW, it means every shot that vindicare fires have a 1/6 chance of pick someone out at your will, since 7th BRB do have a USR of precision shots
Deadshot: All successful To Hit rolls made by a Vindicare Assassin, excluding Snap Shots, have the Precision Shots special rule.
if I read this thing RAW, it means every shot that vindicare fires have a 1/6 chance of pick someone out at your will, since 7th BRB do have a USR of precision shots
or did I miss something..?
You seem to be reading it right. So this guy is a lot less potent than people originally read him to be. It looks like the great IC Apocalypse will not happen.
Edit: It's odd though, Sniper already carries the Precision Shots special rule. So as written, Deadshot does nothing.
This seems to be a case of bad rule-writing. The roll of 6 is hard-coded into the Precision Shots USR, so when Deadshot re-applies it, the roll of 6 is still being required.
In order to function like the 5th edition Vindicare, Deadshot should read "All successful To Hit rolls made by a Vindicare Assassin, excluding Snap Shots, are resolved as rolls of 6 with regards to the Precision Shots special rule." Or something like that.
Not really, rolling a D6 only applies when a model with that rule rolls To Hit.
In this case the successful To Hit-rolls have that rule.
Since it's not a model with this rule, we should continue to look at the second part of the rule and that tells us to allocate all Wounds.
Note the precision shots special rule. The first paragraph states that a model with this special rule has precision shots when it rolls a 6 to hit.
By the text, the Vindicare does not have this special rule - it's the shot itself that has the rule. Therefore, the first paragraph is not relevant to the text, as the shot has the rule thanks to 'all successful to-hit rolls have the precision shots special rule'.
The second paragraph is what would then apply in this case, which basically means the Vindicare allocates freely.
Poor rules writing at its best. Exists to confuse people. I bet the game guy who named the Gun Emplacement with <Weapon> and Emplaced <Weapon> back in 6e did this naming schema.
Even when facing a non-psyker army, he remains a ridiculously hard to kill unit that pulls its weight in far excess of any effort the enemy should conceivably spend into killing him. Sure, you can burn your template weapons on him, it just means that you're not shooting other, more threatening units in his army.
Actually, I think a couple wyverns could drop him pretty much anywhere on the board. They don't care about the BS nerf between twin-linked and barrage. 75% chance per template to put a wound on him, 50% chance for it t get past his invuln, you're looking at a little less than 3 templates on him per wound from a 48" range unit that doesn't need LoS to fire. Incidentally, they also play the role of taking out annoying heavy/special weapons, sgts. etc far better than the Vindecare. Granted the downside is you can't just slap in a couple wyverns without taking some additional guardsmen.
I don't think any of these guys are game breaking unless you're a better tactician than your opponent or he's relying on a one-trick army whose one trick your assassin is a hard counter for (in which case he deserves to lose for bringing an unbalanced army).
Thing is the wyvern needs to hit on that first shot otherwise it has a scatter of 2d6 -1" which makes it very unlikely (if it scatters) that many later blasts in the sequence will be able to hit it, as you will have to use the 'hits' just to walk it back to the assassin. The wyvern has a 5/9 chance of hitting with that first blast.
If it does hit with the first blast, all other blasts then only have a 5/9 chance of actually hitting the assassin.
Wyverns mathmatically are not so great at shooting single model units. Especially when scattering 2" further (if it does scatter) on the first shot.
So whilst the 75% chance to wound and 50% chance to fail is correct, you should also factor in the chance of the first shot hitting and future shots hitting.
The chance for the first shot to cause a wound is 5/9 x 3/4 x 1/2 = 0.21, the chance of shots after the first shot causing a wound is 5/9 x 5/9 x 3/4 x 1/2 = 0.12. So it is more like 1 in 8 or 9 will cause a wound. Even if we assume the first shot hits, the chance of a blast causing a wound is 0.21 so ~ 1 in 5. A whole wyvern unit will struggle to *reliably* take an assassin out. They NEED to hit on that first blast. And even if they do, averages say 2 wounds (maybe 3) will be caused.
The problem with single model units compared to sniping a heavy weapons trooper in a unit is that if tye firstshot hits, further misses ddon't hit other models to build up the hit count.
Dilt wrote: Note the precision shots special rule. The first paragraph states that a model with this special rule has precision shots when it rolls a 6 to hit.
By the text, the Vindicare does not have this special rule - it's the shot itself that has the rule. Therefore, the first paragraph is not relevant to the text, as the shot has the rule thanks to 'all successful to-hit rolls have the precision shots special rule'.
The second paragraph is what would then apply in this case, which basically means the Vindicare allocates freely.
Poor rules writing at its best. Exists to confuse people. I bet the game guy who named the Gun Emplacement with <Weapon> and Emplaced <Weapon> back in 6e did this naming schema.
EDIT: 5 am on the internet
The Vindicare has Precision Shots for every hit and not just 6s. The precedence is the Instant Death rules. If the Strength of a weapon is double the Toughness of the target, it causes Instant Death. But a weapon that just has the Instant Death rule doesn't automatically fire at double the Strength of whatever he's targeting.
I'm not really worried about a Cullexus, yes it's a target Priority but it's not like you can't just blast over it with 8D3 ST4 hits, or target it with shooting that's twinlinked.
He doesn't really bother Daemon Summoning lists that badly either, Oh I can turboboost 24 inches away or fly over you and hit you with a bunch of gak or summon something to shoot you. OH NOES.
He doesn't cancel Grimoire.
Vindicare is the one that I wouldn't want to play against.
What worries me about the Cullexus is that if he is no longer (Unique), someone could bring several of them if they Know they're playing against a faction like Grey Knights or Daemons, Cruise them forward in vehicles, then Flat Out, so the front 6" of their enemy's deployment Zone doesn't produce Warp Charges, Only Harneses them on a 6, and have to destroy the transports before they can even get to the Assassins. Once they do, the Cullexus Assassin cannot be affected by Psychic Powers, and can only be attacked at WS or BS 1.
I haven't seen the Dataslate for myself yet, but if the Cullexus is 145 points, and a Rhino is taken as a Fast Attack (35 points), that's 180 point each, and 6 of them could significantly shut down the front line of a Psyker army for 1080 points. That's 6 Rhinos that have to be destroyed, and a total of 18 wounds dealt at WS/BS1 on T4 models with a 4++ Invulnerable save, BEFORE the army can face whatever else the enemy is pummeling them with.
The only limiting factor on this is that tournaments limit the number of detachments they allow, and someone who does this won't get very many friendly games.
Also Precision shots is the name of the rule as well as the shots that for normal people that have hit on 6's. Since it is after hit rolls have been declared, it can only refer to the second part of precision shots.
Oh, bummer. I guess it's gona be close to impossible to play footslogging orks now with the new vindicare. Will have to scratch-build some battlewagonz for my boyz.
koooaei wrote: Oh, bummer. I guess it's gona be close to impossible to play footslogging orks now with the new vindicare. Will have to scratch-build some battlewagonz for my boyz.
I don't see most people taking the Vindicare as against a lot of lists the Vindicare won't do enough to justify the points. He literally fires one bullet a turn.
The vindicare is excellent against av12 and lower skimmers as long as said skimmer is not a waveserpent with its shield up.
2 tactics for use with the vindicare:
Put him in 4+ cover, and as long as you have a techmarine/master of the forge/tfc, your vindicare will be rocking a 2+ cover. That's quite a few krak and las you will have to send his way to kill him.
Buy a rhino or similarly cheap vehicle. Move it out of the way in the movement phase, shoot with vindi, turbo boost it back to cover him.
The Eversor can infiltrate into the opponents deployment zone behind some LoS blocking cover. Then hunt backfield shooting units and artillery. He has a weapon for everything barring 2+. It forces the opponent to leave a unit to protect their heavy squads.
If taking the formation, just overload their target priorities turn1.
For example, in 2000pts as BA you can have 3 furiosos, an honour guard with full melta all coming down in pods turn1 with a large DC unit with Reclusiarch slingshotting forward with a bunker and escape hatch, along with the 560pts needed for the assassin formation (as well as 2 assault squads in pods and an empty dc pod to ensure the others cone down t1). Infiltrate and hide the eversor and cullexus until you spring them turn 2. Put the callidus in their face and the vindicare shooting from extreme range. So many target prioritites that if they focus on the assassins the rest of the list will wreck face. If they don't then the assassins get into combat where they want to be (sans vindicare - but no-one will be shooting at him anyway).
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koooaei wrote: Oh, bummer. I guess it's gona be close to impossible to play footslogging orks now with the new vindicare. Will have to scratch-build some battlewagonz for my boyz.
Its the eversor orks need to be worried about. 8 attacks wounding on a 2+ with rerolls, then if you kill him his bio-meltdown will decimate any squad who had the audacity to do so. That bio meltdown rule is lethal to blobs. Worse than an exploding trukk. Mek gunz are not safe with him around either.
That's awesome. adding that to snapshots only to hit and a 4+ ap2 template? she can really put the hurt on backfield units.
imagine torching a TFC or a long fang squad just as the game starts? or shooting inside a bunker with a template? just a distracting unit full of carnage and awesome.
Tiger9gamer wrote: That's awesome. adding that to snapshots only to hit and a 4+ ap2 template? she can really put the hurt on backfield units.
imagine torching a TFC or a long fang squad before the game even starts? or shooting inside a bunker with a template? just a distracting unit full of carnage and awesome.
Wait, what? Before the game even starts? I thought that torching would happen on Turn 1?
Tiger9gamer wrote: That's awesome. adding that to snapshots only to hit and a 4+ ap2 template? she can really put the hurt on backfield units.
imagine torching a TFC or a long fang squad before the game even starts? or shooting inside a bunker with a template? just a distracting unit full of carnage and awesome.
Wait, what? Before the game even starts? I thought that torching would happen on Turn 1?
your right my bad! ment turn 1 rather than before the game starst! fixing now
Super Newb wrote: I don't see most people taking the Vindicare as against a lot of lists the Vindicare won't do enough to justify the points. He literally fires one bullet a turn.
But that single bullet can deal D3 wounds!
Against Iron Halos I'm not sure which Exitus Ammo I would take.
A 100% chance for 1 Wound or 50% chance for D3 wounds; I assume you only roll for invulnerable once and then lose D3 wounds?
Personally, I would use the Vindicare to snipe out squad sergeants and the like. Maybe peg an IC who already is down to one wound, but ICs will still get a 4+ LOS against it.
Even when facing a non-psyker army, he remains a ridiculously hard to kill unit that pulls its weight in far excess of any effort the enemy should conceivably spend into killing him. Sure, you can burn your template weapons on him, it just means that you're not shooting other, more threatening units in his army.
Actually, I think a couple wyverns could drop him pretty much anywhere on the board. They don't care about the BS nerf between twin-linked and barrage. 75% chance per template to put a wound on him, 50% chance for it t get past his invuln, you're looking at a little less than 3 templates on him per wound from a 48" range unit that doesn't need LoS to fire. Incidentally, they also play the role of taking out annoying heavy/special weapons, sgts. etc far better than the Vindecare. Granted the downside is you can't just slap in a couple wyverns without taking some additional guardsmen.
I don't think any of these guys are game breaking unless you're a better tactician than your opponent or he's relying on a one-trick army whose one trick your assassin is a hard counter for (in which case he deserves to lose for bringing an unbalanced army).
Thing is the wyvern needs to hit on that first shot otherwise it has a scatter of 2d6 -1" which makes it very unlikely (if it scatters) that many later blasts in the sequence will be able to hit it, as you will have to use the 'hits' just to walk it back to the assassin. The wyvern has a 5/9 chance of hitting with that first blast.
If it does hit with the first blast, all other blasts then only have a 5/9 chance of actually hitting the assassin.
Wyverns mathmatically are not so great at shooting single model units. Especially when scattering 2" further (if it does scatter) on the first shot.
So whilst the 75% chance to wound and 50% chance to fail is correct, you should also factor in the chance of the first shot hitting and future shots hitting.
The chance for the first shot to cause a wound is 5/9 x 3/4 x 1/2 = 0.21, the chance of shots after the first shot causing a wound is 5/9 x 5/9 x 3/4 x 1/2 = 0.12. So it is more like 1 in 8 or 9 will cause a wound. Even if we assume the first shot hits, the chance of a blast causing a wound is 0.21 so ~ 1 in 5. A whole wyvern unit will struggle to *reliably* take an assassin out. They NEED to hit on that first blast. And even if they do, averages say 2 wounds (maybe 3) will be caused.
The problem with single model units compared to sniping a heavy weapons trooper in a unit is that if tye firstshot hits, further misses ddon't hit other models to build up the hit count.
Ah, true. Still probably more reliable than a lot of the other units that could fire at him at BS1. At that point you just need a ton of fire. If someone were to twin-link a punisher, that would also probably do it. (Note to self, include some high RoF units in every army.)
Vindi however, will snipe out the grimoire carrier.
I thought we established that he's bad at killing ICs with an invuln save unless they have a single wound.
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Poly Ranger wrote: The vindicare is excellent against av12 and lower skimmers as long as said skimmer is not a waveserpent with its shield up.
2 tactics for use with the vindicare:
Put him in 4+ cover, and as long as you have a techmarine/master of the forge/tfc, your vindicare will be rocking a 2+ cover. That's quite a few krak and las you will have to send his way to kill him.
Buy a rhino or similarly cheap vehicle. Move it out of the way in the movement phase, shoot with vindi, turbo boost it back to cover him.
I don't think anyone will go through much trouble to try to kill him if he's taking potshots at AV12 vehicles with his 1/9th chance of blowing them up. There are cheaper ways to strip a single hull point from a low AV vehicle.
Super Newb wrote: I don't see most people taking the Vindicare as against a lot of lists the Vindicare won't do enough to justify the points. He literally fires one bullet a turn.
But that single bullet can deal D3 wounds!
Against Iron Halos I'm not sure which Exitus Ammo I would take.
A 100% chance for 1 Wound or 50% chance for D3 wounds; I assume you only roll for invulnerable once and then lose D3 wounds?
No, I imagine you'd roll for all three. You also seem to be leaving out the Wound roll... so a 50% chance for 1 wound or a D3x (a 25% chance at a wound). Also if the target is an IC, he still has a 50% chance to have some random underling take it for him. So really, against an IC, the D3 is superior as those guys won't have invuln saves anyway.
Good point with the vindicare. Im wondering apart from shooting low to mid av vehicles what he can reliably shoot to justify his points then... characters won't get a good LOS but independent ones still do. And what (non independent) characters justify 150pts?
Poly Ranger wrote: The vindicare is excellent against av12 and lower skimmers as long as said skimmer is not a waveserpent with its shield up.
2 tactics for use with the vindicare:
Put him in 4+ cover, and as long as you have a techmarine/master of the forge/tfc, your vindicare will be rocking a 2+ cover. That's quite a few krak and las you will have to send his way to kill him.
Buy a rhino or similarly cheap vehicle. Move it out of the way in the movement phase, shoot with vindi, turbo boost it back to cover him.
Combine those tactics. Put the rhino in the 3+ cover, and put the vindicare inside.
Just to point this out: those assassins are some really, really wel--thought out concept by GW. Yes, they are charging too much for it, as usual, but the rules are actually...good. All seem to have a solid concept and counter they're designed for and overall, I really like it.
I haven't seen the slate yet. Could you stick the Culexus in those empty FA slot drop pods that SW players will be taking by the double handful? Drop pod assassins sounds sexy to me.
BoomWolf wrote: The 4 is a formation (what does it do?)
Each individual is a unit of its own, and as SW can have FA drop pods, they CAN enter the game with them.
Good catch fenris. that's actually quite a scary way to make sure they get where they are needed.
Gives them preferred enemy against warlords, and keeps their +1 VP for killing the warlord.
BoomWolf wrote: Good catch fenris. that's actually quite a scary way to make sure they get where they are needed.
They all have Infiltrate already, so I don't think the 35 additional points (including the mandatory requirements for the Detachment) would be worth it.
BoomWolf wrote: Good catch fenris. that's actually quite a scary way to make sure they get where they are needed.
They all have Infiltrate already, so I don't think the 35 additional points (including the mandatory requirements for the Detachment) would be worth it.
Would be for the Culexus, guns right for the psyker is needs to kill, considering it steals its ML for its gun against one target then throws his psyk out at the psyker.
Plus the 35 points isn't actually for the Assassin, it's mostly to game the number of pods in play to maximize alpha strike. Call it 70 points to ensure 3 pods full of wolves drop when I want them to. Putting an assassin in one of those pods is just gravy.
Hulksmash wrote: Could be awesome in making sure your powers go off if you are sucking away his warp charges he cant deny your powers.
Yeah, and it utterly slaps down daemons. Losing invisibility or cursed earth or even nerfing down Belakor is a big deal for them against a shooting army. And that army is annoying as hell at tournaments.
Fenris-77 wrote: I haven't seen the slate yet. Could you stick the Culexus in those empty FA slot drop pods that SW players will be taking by the double handful? Drop pod assassins sounds sexy to me.
Why not? Anything in the Imperium can go in those SW drop pods lol.
Hollismason wrote: I'm not really worried about a Cullexus, yes it's a target Priority but it's not like you can't just blast over it with 8D3 ST4 hits, or target it with shooting that's twinlinked.
He doesn't really bother Daemon Summoning lists that badly either, Oh I can turboboost 24 inches away or fly over you and hit you with a bunch of gak or summon something to shoot you. OH NOES.
He doesn't cancel Grimoire.
Vindicare is the one that I wouldn't want to play against.
Now, im not to familiar with daemons, but what can shoot 8d3 s4 shots? Either way, that averages about 2 hits. With one wound. With .5 total failed wounds. So after 6 turns of shooting him with that, then sure your fine. What other guns do daemons have access to that are twin linked or have high vof?
I think he does cancel (or at least hurt) daemon summing lists. With good positioning you can get him close to the nasty summoning units (the ones that summon greater daemons are top priority). Sure, you can turbo boost away, but thats a whole turn your functionally doing nothing. Assault him and with a single 6 to wound your greater daemons are screwed.
He wont shut down the entire daemon army by himself, but he will become a lycnhpin in most of my lists now.
On another note, seer council should be completely dead now.
Get near them and a) They have to go the long way around if they wish to get past, b) there invisbility, fortune, and shrouding dont work for that turn, and c) he would let off anywhere from 12-19 S5 ap1 shots, which could really cripple the super expensive seer council.
(Does he have deep strike)
I think they will still be alive and well as there are few lists that can take them and not be hamstrung by the ally limitation. However I know of a few GTs where it is not as limiting so I see it being a whole different kettle in those.
carldooley wrote: I think it would be scarier to put a Culexus in a stormlord.
So here's an interesting thought... RAW multiple Culexus assassins would both be able to take a bonus shot per mastery level of a psyker they're next to. So, mimimum cost per warp charge AFAIK is 18 and it takes up 3 modesl 12 of those for 216, 4 Culexus for a bunch more points, and a stormlord and now you're putting out all the S5 AP1 shots ever.
So guys what would be the most "auto include" assassin for your run of the mill IG army? I get the idea a lot of the people who really want the addition are IG, given that many of us want to relive our Dawn of War days with being able to take any of the assassins from our HQ building haha.
ultimentra wrote: So guys what would be the most "auto include" assassin for your run of the mill IG army? I get the idea a lot of the people who really want the addition are IG, given that many of us want to relive our Dawn of War days with being able to take any of the assassins from our HQ building haha.
Could do the old Vindicare in a chimera, rhino or bunker. With 3 wounds now its not a big deal he can get out and use the wreck as cover.
I just played a game with my Khorne CSM/CD, and brought along an angry little Eversor to help collect some skulls.
The thing I found very fun was actually the positioning and movement of a tiny single model unit. It was really refreshing, and added some of that skirmish-game tension into my planning.
With good table terrain, clever positioning and forward thinking, you can really shut down the enemy's options to engage the assassin, which I think a lot of people arent taking into account. Yes, theyre very fragile, but theyre also really small models and easy to keep out of LoS.
Powerful single-model units that arent MCs or vehicles are a real rarity in 40k, and these assassins bring something really unique to the table in that regard.
In the end, my Eversor killed two squads of GK purifiers, even though he flubbed two rounds of combat (yay WS table!), and the two wounds he took were from cleansing flame through a wall.
ultimentra wrote: So guys what would be the most "auto include" assassin for your run of the mill IG army? I get the idea a lot of the people who really want the addition are IG, given that many of us want to relive our Dawn of War days with being able to take any of the assassins from our HQ building haha.
The Eversor maybe a good shout for gunline guard (or even gunline marine) armies. He is a cheap effective counter attacking unit, and if the opponent is coming to you it reduces his disadvantages. If a marine player pods down, 8 ws8 st5 I7 ap3 attacks on the charge will gut half a full squad. If ork or nid units get through your fire screens those 8 attacks wounding on a 2+ with rerolls will start to eat away at blobs. He'll stop them dead, and if they come out on top, they will suffer a huge amount of casualties from his bio-meltdown. I think he is a strong counter to pods - especially with his charge reach.
Whilst if you come across a riptide spam, a callidus could do a good job of trying to tie up a riptide for a few turns (especially due to the smash attack nerf) - after templating the supporting pathfinder squad on turn1.
And being able to infiltrate within 1" - that could work very nicely with karamazov's 'at all costs' shots...
BoomWolf wrote: Good catch fenris. that's actually quite a scary way to make sure they get where they are needed.
They all have Infiltrate already, so I don't think the 35 additional points (including the mandatory requirements for the Detachment) would be worth it.
Would be for the Culexus, guns right for the psyker is needs to kill, considering it steals its ML for its gun against one target then throws his psyk out at the psyker.
And when not going first, you really don't want your assassin just standing out in the open getting butchered after infiltrating.
I have to ask, what BS does the Eversor use against Swooping FMCs?
His rules say he always fires at full BS, but what does he do against flyers? BS1 snapfire, or BS8 snapfire?
koooaei wrote: Oh, bummer. I guess it's gona be close to impossible to play footslogging orks now with the new vindicare. Will have to scratch-build some battlewagonz for my boyz.
Its the eversor orks need to be worried about. 8 attacks wounding on a 2+ with rerolls, then if you kill him his bio-meltdown will decimate any squad who had the audacity to do so. That bio meltdown rule is lethal to blobs. Worse than an exploding trukk. Mek gunz are not safe with him around either.
It's actually worse to loose nobz and painboyz left and right. Yep, eversor can kill a chosen squad of boyz or big gunz. But he's gona get shot to death afterwards. While the sniper guy can cripple whole squads per turn across the whole game remaining out of reach. Orks don't function well without pk nobz.
For him to kill a nob though you need to be using the turbo charger to cause d3 wounds, which means wounding on a 4+.
His chances to hit are 92%.
The chances of rolling a 3+ on turbo charge are 67%.
Chances of LOS is 17%.
So 0.92 x 0.5 x 0.67 x 0.83= 0.255
So the assassins chances of killing an ork nob in a squad is 26% rounded. You are realistically looking at 1 in 4 shots killing a nob. Not too dangerous.
I lean heavily toward the Callidus and Culexus personally. One because I hates psychic deathstars. And the other cause she tickles my fancing as a major disruptive force starting turn 1.
Hulksmash wrote: Could be awesome in making sure your powers go off if you are sucking away his warp charges he cant deny your powers.
Yeah, and it utterly slaps down daemons. Losing invisibility or cursed earth or even nerfing down Belakor is a big deal for them against a shooting army. And that army is annoying as hell at tournaments.
I am actually really thinking about bringing an assassin as a daemon player. They seem so fun and honestly, their crazy stats and insane rules seem to fit with the daemon codex pretty well. Railgun? Try concentrated beam of Tzeentch, Psychout dude? Nah, that is just a really beefy Khorne Herald, he has a special for of hellfire gaze!
gwarsh41 wrote: I am actually really thinking about bringing an assassin as a daemon player. They seem so fun and honestly, their crazy stats and insane rules seem to fit with the daemon codex pretty well. Railgun? Try concentrated beam of Tzeentch, Psychout dude? Nah, that is just a really beefy Khorne Herald, he has a special for of hellfire gaze!
don't forget about stand ins. I play tau, and I just may get a Lictor to stand in for an Eversor. Do you use Skulltaker? perhaps using it as a stand in for a Culexus?
Hulksmash wrote: Could be awesome in making sure your powers go off if you are sucking away his warp charges he cant deny your powers.
Yeah, and it utterly slaps down daemons. Losing invisibility or cursed earth or even nerfing down Belakor is a big deal for them against a shooting army. And that army is annoying as hell at tournaments.
I am actually really thinking about bringing an assassin as a daemon player. They seem so fun and honestly, their crazy stats and insane rules seem to fit with the daemon codex pretty well. Railgun? Try concentrated beam of Tzeentch, Psychout dude? Nah, that is just a really beefy Khorne Herald, he has a special for of hellfire gaze!
Haha yeh I'm in the exact same position: can't wait to convert some daemonic assassin models! Not sure how much use they'll be mind. The vindicare looks cool, but it is still just one shot a turn...
They all have some form of protection against first turn shooting and that will surely keep them alive unless they focus all their firepower on it.
And if the enemy uses all his shooting in a turn to kill a 'cheap' model then I'm already winning.
carldooley wrote: don't forget about stand ins. I play tau, and I just may get a Lictor to stand in for an Eversor. Do you use Skulltaker? perhaps using it as a stand in for a Culexus?
I personally am not going to use a Xenos-model as stand in for these Assassins.
It wouldn't make any sense to have someone of your own Faction that is actually an enemy according to the Allies-chart.
Sure it would. Outcasts or neccessary evils. Rogue Organisms. There are a ton of reasons that could happen regarding their relationship to the rest of the army.
Since i'm doing RG and slowly turning my armies towards it, I think Im going to convert a scout marine up a lot so he's a 40k Moritiat like unit to represent a callidus and Vindicare. I think it would work pretty well, considering some Raven Guards natural "wraith slipping" ability.
How to justify a converted assassin for pretty much any army:
Eldar-a highly untrusted and unfamiliar aspect.
Dark Eldar-a superpowered lunatic that is out to get everyone and anyone.
Demons-an independent demon of high caliber that does not get along well with others.
CSM-someone who has won many rewards from the gods, turning him into a killing machine, but he is not quite sane.
Or, a corrupted assassin, but old habits die hard.
Necrons-mind controlled, but resisting.
Tau-some sort of alien that isn't really trustworthy but works with the tau empire for now.
Nids-highly unstable biomorph, extreme paranoia could not be removed without harming its combat performance.
Actually you can here.
Also saying 5 rhinos is about as silly as something like six dozen. You use what you think is a loophole to break a rule. But you're still breaking the rule in spirit. In other forums I mean not here. Here you can say how much a unit costs.
Actually you can here.
Also saying 5 rhinos is about as silly as something like six dozen. You use what you think is a loophole to break a rule. But you're still breaking the rule in spirit. In other forums I mean not here. Here you can say how much a unit costs.
Not sure how it is breaking the rules or even using a loop hole when the point cost isnt givin at all and only a rough estimate for him to make a decision to pick up the 17 dollar codex
If you wana test giving out points then feel free.
Actually, the price for the slate is ok if you want to field all of them. You can easily convert the models from so many others you already have. If you just want to field one, though...well...
Nid Bits wrote: The Vindicare Assassin has been nerfed slightly. His Shield Breaker bullets no longer destroys shield invulnerable saves, only ignores the invulnerable save for his own shots. I was looking forward to owning one but now I don't know.
And precision shots are only performed on a 6, not on every shot, from what I can remember looking at it briefly earlier today.
you trade the vindicare ignoring ++'s on his shot, to ignoreing ++ AND the cover save, its a win. ignores cover is a tremendous boost that more then justifies what amounts to mostly sideways "nerfs"
Actually you can here.
Also saying 5 rhinos is about as silly as something like six dozen. You use what you think is a loophole to break a rule. But you're still breaking the rule in spirit. In other forums I mean not here. Here you can say how much a unit costs.
Not sure how it is breaking the rules or even using a loop hole when the point cost isnt givin at all and only a rough estimate for him to make a decision to pick up the 17 dollar codex
If you wana test giving out points then feel free.
Oh Lordy Lordy Lordy. Let me throw a facepalm out there too.
1 - saying the points cost of a unit is AOK here
2 - hypothetically if it weren't ok, hypothetically if there were a rule against it here, speaking in an obvious code to tell someone the points value would be breaking the spirit of the hypothetical rule if not the letter. A loophole.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyway, do you folks think Callidus would be worthwhile in a drop pod list?
Here are my concerns.
1- You don't go first. Your infiltrating assassin gets shot up before it can do anything (with snapshots sure but it could hurt).
2- Opponent has a mech list which can mean no good target for the template weapon.
Those are valid concerns. In a non-pod army even if she dies fast, she hopefully soaked up enough fire to save some of your other units, in a Pod list your opponent might have no other targets T1.
To put the points discussion to rest - We don't mind limited posting of points costs where it is relevant to a discussion.
However, that has limits. It's supposed to be an aid to discussion, not an allowance to post rules wholesale so people don't need to have the relevant publication.
Posting that, say, the Vindicare costs 'x' points is fine if there is a valid reason for listing the specific points cost.
Posting that, say, the Vindicare costs '5 rhinos minus a searchlight' or whatever is just downright irritating for everyone involved. Don't do this, or no pie for you.
1. You can always infiltrate somewhere where they cannot shoot you. And if you go first, it will deal a lot of damage. Don't forget to re-roll that Seize the Initiative! In normal lists I would say: So what? They have to spend a lot of shooting on a single cheap model. But for a Pod-list that might be different.
2. Even against low-AV she has a lot of attacks with Rending. But it's worth it for the other 9 games you play without Mech.
Fenris-77 wrote: In a pod list the assassin would, ideally, also be in a pod.
Hmm, good point, I didn't even consider that option since her infiltrate ability is so awesome. But I do have SW so extra pods would be available... Hmm.
Or just infiltrate nearby but out of LOS in the games where there are no good targets for her initially
Seems the positives outweigh the negatives in an aggressive pod type list.
Now I just need to figure out what my version of the callidus is going to look like!
gwarsh41 wrote: I am actually really thinking about bringing an assassin as a daemon player. They seem so fun and honestly, their crazy stats and insane rules seem to fit with the daemon codex pretty well. Railgun? Try concentrated beam of Tzeentch, Psychout dude? Nah, that is just a really beefy Khorne Herald, he has a special for of hellfire gaze!
don't forget about stand ins. I play tau, and I just may get a Lictor to stand in for an Eversor. Do you use Skulltaker? perhaps using it as a stand in for a Culexus?
Exactly! I was just going to use the GW Heralds, all my daemon heralds are converted and on medium bases from 5th edition.
Super Newb wrote: 2- Opponent has a mech list which can mean no good target for the template weapon.
actually, you could arguably use the assassin to get your opponent to disembark their transports where you WANT them to. Think about it. If your opponent brings a land raider with a couple tasty morsels inside, deploy your callidus to cover the front and side hatch away from your guns, then when you pop it, your opponent has no real good places to give the unit within cover from your shooting. Of course, this works for open topped vehicles too.
Fenris-77 wrote: In a pod list the assassin would, ideally, also be in a pod.
Hmm, good point, I didn't even consider that option since her infiltrate ability is so awesome. But I do have SW so extra pods would be available... Hmm.
Or just infiltrate nearby but out of LOS in the games where there are no good targets for her initially
Seems the positives outweigh the negatives in an aggressive pod type list.
Now I just need to figure out what my version of the callidus is going to look like!
Well, for the Callidus it doesn't matter so much given her super infiltrate (and it`s obviously meh for the Vindicare). I like it a whole lot for the Eversor and Culexus though. I brought it up in the context of taking empty pods in a SW drop list to maximize alpha strike. So I thought if there are empty pods, why not add an assassin-y filling to one or two? Dropping the Culexus (safely) right on top of a Psyker grouping is just awesome.
insaniak wrote: To put the points discussion to rest - We don't mind limited posting of points costs where it is relevant to a discussion.
However, that has limits. It's supposed to be an aid to discussion, not an allowance to post rules wholesale so people don't need to have the relevant publication.
Posting that, say, the Vindicare costs 'x' points is fine if there is a valid reason for listing the specific points cost.
Posting that, say, the Vindicare costs '5 rhinos minus a searchlight' or whatever is just downright irritating for everyone involved. Don't do this, or no pie for you.
There's pie? No one told me there was pie? Where's my pie?
Imagine a situation. A squad of ork boyz and eversor. Seems that even statistically, orks are better off not charging that guy. There's no big difference between 3 extra attacks and 4 extra shots for an ork. But when he charges, boyz can shoot overwatch and are quite likely to inflict at least one unsaved wound. Basically, i think that pure shooting + overwatch is gona be better than shooting + charging.
In fairness, ork boyz firing overwatch with shootas are something of a special case as they're only marginally worse shots than in a normal round of combat....
Besides which, if you can get one round of "aimed" fire plus one round of overwatch, you have a non-trivial chance of killing him before he makes his charge move - meaning he doesn't blow up in the middle of the mob after they've made a pile-in move to cluster around him. That alone strikes me as reason enough....
But I must say the dataslate is awesome. I'm very tempted to do a 1750 point "army" of three execution forces, just for the hell of it....
(Been watching The Expendables over the weekend, which isn't helping).
In order for an all assassin army to be viable, would it need a primary detachment of an HQ and troops from a separate army in order to have a warlord and some troops with the objective secured rule?
From what I have read, it is still possible to have a battle-forged army of only assassins right? This force just wouldn't have any warlord or troops with the objective secured rule?
Or is a primary detachment necessary for battle-forged?
Looking forward to converting a bunch of these up for an army!
The assassins can be a primary detachment. One of them will be your warlord. He just won't have a trait and you will have no objective secured rule. Any detachment can be your primary now if it contains your warlord, some just get no benefit for being your primary.
That rule comes from the Combined Arms Detachment (which is what the old force org chart's primary is called now).
You can take "Assassin Detachment"-s with only 1 Elites slot and/or Formations where you take all four Assassins.
And you can have any number of those!
Then you select one Character and that becomes your Warlord (aka your General) and his Detachment/Formation would be called your Primary Detachment.
Neither the Assassin-Detachment or their Formation has the Objective Secured rule, so it wouldn't apply.
And long as all your units are either in a Detachment or Formation, your army would count as Battle-Forged.
