Ok so obviously the achilles and the contemptors (and lucius pods) are brilliant, and I can see some uses for the Spartan and the Caestus, but what about the other vehicles in the book?
Anybody have any reasons for liking/disliking any of them?
The Sicaran is a fantastic dakka boat, if you have a need for anti-infantry or anti-skimmer firepower. The Storm Eagle and its variants are also pretty nice gunships, albeit somewhat expensive. You can always dump a cheap combat squad of tactical marines or scouts into one and use it for last-turn objective snatching (and not be out a huge number of points if it goes down in flames) while you spend the rest of the game zooming around and shooting up infantry or vehicles out of cover.
One's generally enough. Otherwise you have to find something for the MotF to do so that he isn't dead weight. Possibly put him in an Achilles with a servitor unit to make it more resilient, or else give him a bike and conversion beamer for long-ranged vehicle and MC sniping.
Best picks in there imo are the sicaran (even if it had an errata to give it 13/12/12 armour), fireraptor gunship, normal mortis dread, and the tarantula gun batteries with anti air setup.
Contemptors are too expensive for what they are, and the contemptor mortis has seen nerfs and price increases over the last 2 years, so is no longer the awesome unit it once was.
The Spartan is ok, but the other landraider variants aren't all that great. The achilles fails in its role as a transport and puts out a low damage potential for its points. It wont die easy, but it wont do all that much either. If you want damage then 3 TFC would be a better pick I think.
Relic of the armoury effects different chapters differently. DA for example have to take an Interrogator chaplain, which is bad because he is not a standard pick. SW on the other hand have to get a runepriest, who are normally included in lists anyway. Taking more than one RotA unit really depends on if you want to pay, and have a purpose, for the hq tax you have to pay.
Big Blind Bill wrote: Best picks in there imo are the sicaran (even if it had an errata to give it 13/12/12 armour), fireraptor gunship, normal mortis dread, and the tarantula gun batteries with anti air setup.
why the normal mortis dread? what set up? They seem expensive for what they are to me
Contemptors are too expensive for what they are, and the contemptor mortis has seen nerfs and price increases over the last 2 years, so is no longer the awesome unit it once was.
I like them because the dual-kheres one can literally do anything: anti-tank, anti-infantry, and anti-air Admittedly they are less points-efficient than other units though
The Spartan is ok, but the other landraider variants aren't all that great. The achilles fails in its role as a transport and puts out a low damage potential for its points. It wont die easy, but it wont do all that much either. If you want damage then 3 TFC would be a better pick I think.
I like the achilles because it's super duper resilient, can protect warlord (and a victory point), and can kill OS units all game, as well as doing a bit of anti-tank too.
Relic of the armoury effects different chapters differently. DA for example have to take an Interrogator chaplain, which is bad because he is not a standard pick. SW on the other hand have to get a runepriest, who are normally included in lists anyway. Taking more than one RotA unit really depends on if you want to pay, and have a purpose, for the hq tax you have to pay.
Some of the vehicles that are great and why;
*Land Raider Achilles is awesome.
One of the toughest non super heavies in the game, good damage output, and holds a squad to dump out when needed. Immunity to melta truly is a great addition to AV14.
*Deimos Predator w/ plasma destroyer
It is 3 plasma cannon shots a turn without gets hot on an AV13 chasis. They are pretty great and their are a few different ways to get tank hunter and lascannons on it.
*Sicaran
Very nice tank with its Accel Autocannon and AV13 all around. It is even fairly cheap. This is an excellent tank in a number of ways. The basic incarnation is a fast vehicle that can pop skimmers very well and is effective against most light armour and even troops. You can however start putting more and more upgrades on it to make it more effective at a given job. Do you want to push forward aggressively to try getting side armour? Ceramite + AV13 around makes this a pain to kill even at short range and you can add legacies to make it even more tough (it makes some great mobile cover btw). Long range tank hunter? Lascannons + tank hunter legacy and sit back hunt. The main gun is even pretty decent against some flyers.
*Whirlwind Scorpius
This is one of the most brutal tanks available to SM. The damage output one of these can put out is just fantastic. You can even hunt special weapons out of units and it can do a real number on most vehicles.
*Storm Eagle Roc Pattern
This has a great transport capacity and very good weapons (rockets + LC + Typhoon ML). The range on one of these is not to be scoffed. BTW it has DS so DS it in a rear corner of your opponent's deployment zone and fire into rear armour often making it impossible for the opponent's flyers to turn around and shoot you.
*Fire Raptor Gunship
This is probably the most damaging of the SM flyers and will gun down infantry and FMC with impunity. The ability to engage 4 different targets at the same time and 3 of it's weapons to fire at full BS despite shaken, jink, etc. is just incredible.
*Caestus Assault Ram
This is a great vehicle when used to put the right SM unit into melee. The vehicle is very difficult to take down, has good damage output, but the biggest benefit is the ability to zoom on and ram something important and then throw a bunch of angry astartes into the poor buggers nearby. BTW I recommend storm shield equipped units as even if the flyer crashes they are likely to survive the crash and still get to charge. However this is the only way I have seen to get melee honour guard to consistently work.
*Javelin Attack Speeder
These are what speeders wish they were. Great weapon choices at decent prices, AV11, and DS. One of the great uses for this vehicle is to take CML, 2x HK missile, and MM. You DS them behind the opponent (of to the side) and shoot all four weapons (combat speed fast vehicle). These can make advancing for the opponents vehicles very dangerous and are good against Sv3+ MC as well. With the new score as you go the opponent almost always needs to expose some weak armour. The ability to engage from a distance though is the biggest benefit for AV11 skimmers.
*Contemptor Mortis Dread
This thing is incredible with kheres assault cannons. Tough and good firepower.
*Tarantula Sentry Gun
Oft overlooked as it is cheap and does relatively little damage. However it is the best way to ensure you stay on the board if you run a turn 2 reserves army. Get a couple of these on the board next to a comms relay and it becomes almost impossible to alpha strike you off the board. Upgrading them to hyperios makes them more useful but also brings the price up enough you should consider rapiers.
*Rapier battery
These are an incredible value as either quad HB or laser destroyers. They are tough and do a lot of damage for their pts. The only reason you don't hear a lot about them is that they are relatively immobile and vulnerable to CC whereas the SM army has to stay mobile and cannot afford to leave a unit to act as a body guard. They work great as turn 1 support for a turn 2 reserves army.
*Land Raider Proteus w/ Augur Web
The proteus is pretty mediocre but being able to give it scout and either a -1 to enemy reserves or reroll your own reserve rolls can be huge. Give the unit inside a beacon to DS on then DS your units off the AV14 hull. Very useful but it needs a very specific type of list (the scions flyer formation or the GK strike force are good combos for this).
*Vortimer Razorback
This is now the only way to get the old S7 autocannon razorbacks now. It is also psychic so you get an extra WC. I wouldn't buy it based on these rules though as there will almost assuredly be an errata.
*SoB Repressor
This is an excellent transport especially for dominions as they can fire from the firepoints and enjoy an AV13 transport. The HF is good and it has a nice price point.
Well those are my general thoughts of the vehicles in IA2ed2. I have used stand ins for most of them and have some of the models. On the model front pretty much all of these models are gorgeous when properly assembled but make sure you are ready for a major project if you get the larger resin vehicles as there will be significant warping and large resin vehicles tend to be a hassle to assemble. They look absolutely incredible though.
Does this book have Demios pattern Predators in it? Those have pretty nice options over regular Predators. The 3-shot plasma cannon in particular is quite good for the price (since you can scoot-and-shoot with it).
ansacs wrote: Some of the vehicles that are great and why;
*Land Raider Achilles is awesome.
One of the toughest non super heavies in the game, good damage output, and holds a squad to dump out when needed. Immunity to melta truly is a great addition to AV14.
*Deimos Predator w/ plasma destroyer
It is 3 plasma cannon shots a turn without gets hot on an AV13 chasis. They are pretty great and their are a few different ways to get tank hunter and lascannons on it.
*Sicaran
Very nice tank with its Accel Autocannon and AV13 all around. It is even fairly cheap. This is an excellent tank in a number of ways. The basic incarnation is a fast vehicle that can pop skimmers very well and is effective against most light armour and even troops. You can however start putting more and more upgrades on it to make it more effective at a given job. Do you want to push forward aggressively to try getting side armour? Ceramite + AV13 around makes this a pain to kill even at short range and you can add legacies to make it even more tough (it makes some great mobile cover btw). Long range tank hunter? Lascannons + tank hunter legacy and sit back hunt. The main gun is even pretty decent against some flyers.
*Whirlwind Scorpius
This is one of the most brutal tanks available to SM. The damage output one of these can put out is just fantastic. You can even hunt special weapons out of units and it can do a real number on most vehicles.
*Storm Eagle Roc Pattern
This has a great transport capacity and very good weapons (rockets + LC + Typhoon ML). The range on one of these is not to be scoffed. BTW it has DS so DS it in a rear corner of your opponent's deployment zone and fire into rear armour often making it impossible for the opponent's flyers to turn around and shoot you.
*Fire Raptor Gunship
This is probably the most damaging of the SM flyers and will gun down infantry and FMC with impunity. The ability to engage 4 different targets at the same time and 3 of it's weapons to fire at full BS despite shaken, jink, etc. is just incredible.
*Caestus Assault Ram
This is a great vehicle when used to put the right SM unit into melee. The vehicle is very difficult to take down, has good damage output, but the biggest benefit is the ability to zoom on and ram something important and then throw a bunch of angry astartes into the poor buggers nearby. BTW I recommend storm shield equipped units as even if the flyer crashes they are likely to survive the crash and still get to charge. However this is the only way I have seen to get melee honour guard to consistently work.
*Javelin Attack Speeder
These are what speeders wish they were. Great weapon choices at decent prices, AV11, and DS. One of the great uses for this vehicle is to take CML, 2x HK missile, and MM. You DS them behind the opponent (of to the side) and shoot all four weapons (combat speed fast vehicle). These can make advancing for the opponents vehicles very dangerous and are good against Sv3+ MC as well. With the new score as you go the opponent almost always needs to expose some weak armour. The ability to engage from a distance though is the biggest benefit for AV11 skimmers.
*Contemptor Mortis Dread
This thing is incredible with kheres assault cannons. Tough and good firepower.
*Tarantula Sentry Gun
Oft overlooked as it is cheap and does relatively little damage. However it is the best way to ensure you stay on the board if you run a turn 2 reserves army. Get a couple of these on the board next to a comms relay and it becomes almost impossible to alpha strike you off the board. Upgrading them to hyperios makes them more useful but also brings the price up enough you should consider rapiers.
*Rapier battery
These are an incredible value as either quad HB or laser destroyers. They are tough and do a lot of damage for their pts. The only reason you don't hear a lot about them is that they are relatively immobile and vulnerable to CC whereas the SM army has to stay mobile and cannot afford to leave a unit to act as a body guard. They work great as turn 1 support for a turn 2 reserves army.
*Land Raider Proteus w/ Augur Web
The proteus is pretty mediocre but being able to give it scout and either a -1 to enemy reserves or reroll your own reserve rolls can be huge. Give the unit inside a beacon to DS on then DS your units off the AV14 hull. Very useful but it needs a very specific type of list (the scions flyer formation or the GK strike force are good combos for this).
*Vortimer Razorback
This is now the only way to get the old S7 autocannon razorbacks now. It is also psychic so you get an extra WC. I wouldn't buy it based on these rules though as there will almost assuredly be an errata.
*SoB Repressor
This is an excellent transport especially for dominions as they can fire from the firepoints and enjoy an AV13 transport. The HF is good and it has a nice price point.
Well those are my general thoughts of the vehicles in IA2ed2. I have used stand ins for most of them and have some of the models. On the model front pretty much all of these models are gorgeous when properly assembled but make sure you are ready for a major project if you get the larger resin vehicles as there will be significant warping and large resin vehicles tend to be a hassle to assemble. They look absolutely incredible though.
Awesome, thanks for the feedback.
What is this "tank hunter legacy" you mention?
The legacies of glory section of IA2ed2 has Battle of Sarosh (Skyfire, Interceptor, Tank Hunter on one weapon) or Schism of Mars (Tank Hunter, etc.) That is an often overlooked section of rules that has a lot of cool stuff in it.
ansacs wrote: The legacies of glory section of IA2ed2 has Battle of Sarosh (Skyfire, Interceptor, Tank Hunter on one weapon) or Schism of Mars (Tank Hunter, etc.) That is an often overlooked section of rules that has a lot of cool stuff in it.
Would it be allowed in any game where FW units are allowed, do you think, or is it a special permission jobby?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok so I just read them...
Wow...
Just wow...
I use the sicaren every game. Give it sponsor HBs and ceramite and for 176pts you have one he'll of a dakka wagon. Also live the Cerberus. It's great at killing big nastiness and one you give it ceramite and las cannons it's an amazing superheavy for 415pts
Tactical_Genius wrote: Would it be allowed in any game where FW units are allowed, do you think, or is it a special permission jobby?
Ok so I just read them...
Wow...
Just wow...
Well strictly speaking everything and anything requires opponent's permission. I would definitely inform the opponent before you surprise them but as far as I see there is no special permissions required beyond normal.
There is a wide variety of interesting legacies. They all seem fairly priced as well.
Tactical_Genius wrote: Would it be allowed in any game where FW units are allowed, do you think, or is it a special permission jobby?
Ok so I just read them...
Wow...
Just wow...
Well strictly speaking everything and anything requires opponent's permission. I would definitely inform the opponent before you surprise them but as far as I see there is no special permissions required beyond normal.
There is a wide variety of interesting legacies. They all seem fairly priced as well.
I'm just thinking tank hunter (and other bonuses, including a 50% chance to ignore haywire) for 25 points is amazing :O
I'm thinking the spartan, with schism of mars thing, and ceramite for 340pts, is pretty damn good Fill it with an assault unit of some description, while blasting away with 4 twin-linked tankhunting lascannons?
I really like the Fellblade, with its S8 AP3 Massive blast for clearing infantry or the S9 AP2 Armorbane Blast, its good at both anti-infantry and anti-tank. Not to mention 2 quad lascannon sponsons.
ace101 wrote: I really like the Fellblade, with its S8 AP3 Massive blast for clearing infantry or the S9 AP2 Armorbane Blast, its good at both anti-infantry and anti-tank. Not to mention 2 quad lascannon sponsons.
I field my Sicaran with lascannons. Between those, the hull heavy bolter, and the turret autocannons, you can hunt down pretty much anything you want (and don't forget that it is a fast vehicle). Also, as a reminder, it is NOT armor 13 all around. That was a typo, and the armor is 13/12/12.
The Spartan is fun for delivering huge squads of terminators. If your opponents already have problems dealing with Land Raiders, they'll have problems with the Spartan (and doesn't cost that much more than a Land Raider).
I love the Sicaran, just because it's a Fast Tank and as a Blood Angel-player I prefer my tanks to be fast.
The best page from that entire book would be the part that allows my Land Raiders to Deep Strike without scattering.
It doesn't stop my Codex from sucking, I'm probably not going to get a 50% win-rate.. But at least I am having a gigantic amount of fun!
Kangodo wrote: I love the Sicaran, just because it's a Fast Tank and as a Blood Angel-player I prefer my tanks to be fast.
The best page from that entire book would be the part that allows my Land Raiders to Deep Strike without scattering.
It doesn't stop my Codex from sucking, I'm probably not going to get a 50% win-rate.. But at least I am having a gigantic amount of fun!
It doesnt suck as bad as most people think, but im of the same mindset. I feel like running it alongside some baal preds would be a blast
It's payday today and you guys are really tempting me with a £50 investment...
Automatically Appended Next Post: £6 to post a PLUCKING book that I'd already be paying £50 for?!? WTF forgeworld! WTabsoluteF???
Still getting it...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and if you buy 2 books its £12... as though it would cost them that much more to post 2!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've ordered it then spent a couple of hours looking at discussions/reviews on various units inside it.
Let me get this straight:
The sicarans main gun has 6 twinlinked st7 rending shots which ignore jink and with the schism of mars can also have tank hunter? It can then be further decked out with 2 lascannons which will also have tank hunter, and just happens to have a hb too (which again will also have tank hunter), on an av13/12/12 fast vehicle with 3hp. Also having extra armour included and a 4+ save against haywire.
...
For about 200pts?
That's amazing! It is THE answer to serp spam and should reliably be downing one a turn even with its shields up!
So (I only know the roundabout points here so may be a bit off) you could have in a battle forged list at 2000pts:
Iron Hands clann raukaan.
MotF with Iron stone (sitting behind a fellblade)
Command squad with 5 melta and pod (to help against opponents LoW)
20ish scouts with snipers and camo-cloaks (for heavy infiltrated scoring)
Culexus (to stop invisibility shinanigans and other psychic nasties)
Imperial knight paladin (to charge at MCs/tanks whilst laying down to pie plates)
Fellblade with ceremite, sponsoon quad lascannons and battle of Keylek (for ignores cover 7" st8 ap3 ordinance and 5" st10 ap1 blasts, quad lascannons for AT/AA/Anti-MC/Anti-teq)
Sicaran with quad lascannons and schism of mars (for anti-everything)
ADL (for the tanks to have a 4+ cover)
For about 2000pts?
And the OS scouts will usually be getting a 2+ gtg save with a 6+ fnp, whilst both tanks and drop pod have a 5+ IWND, being boosted to a 4+ due to ironstone, plus MotF repair roll.
That's mental! How could that even be countered? 6 wraithknights maybe? 6+ flyers? I thought i'd overestimated the points but I can't have got those points right...
My two favorite vehicles so far are the Leman Russ Vanquisher and Hammerhead Gunship.
The Hammerhead is highly mobile and can fit and sit on any terrain. It has a BFG that has a high chance of penetrating its targets and a huge chance of then inflicting critical damage. Furthermore, it can jink for a 3+ save due to disruption pods and have its ballistics skill restored to better than original by markerlights.
The Vanquisher loses mobility as a trade off for having ludicrous front and side armor, and a bucket of guns. The main cannon while much less likely to inflict critical damage than a Railgun is more likely to Penetrate and Glance. A hull mounted Lascannon can be taken to add redundancy to the tank hunter and give it the potential to scrape 2 hull points a turn. I choose multimeltas as my sponsons as they can instant death t4 models and destroy vehicles that get too close. If something gets within move distance you can also ram them for a nasty hit, not that I would recommend committing a tank with four antitank weapons to a ram.
The Hyperios Tarantula battery is always worth a look. Upgraded, you get a command dish and 2 launchers firing interceptor, skyfire, heat seeker, Krak missiles at fliers and skimmers. Not a bad fast attack unit for slighty over 100pts.
Poly:
I don't think you can take a command squad with a MotF.
Remember that you can take one Legacy of Glory for every 1000 points, so you need exactly 2000 points!
Ahh good point. I missed that since I never take a MotF. Tbf taking an unupgraded libby would save 55pts for another unupgraded scout squad - may not be able to repair the fellblade as easily, but it'd still have its 5+ IWND and 4+ cover...
And not to worry - I find the SM dex by far the easiest to hit an exact amout of points with. With snipers, camo cloaks, melta bombs etc, plus everything else apart from hb scouts being multiples of five, its a lot easier to get 2k on the dot compared to say, the cron dex.
Talking about the ignores cover on blasts version:
I don't know the exact price - I can only go off what I've read elsewhere until IA2 arrives at my door. However a tl 7" st8 ap3 ignores cover blast is excellent, with the ordinance rule on top of that it means you are at least glancing av10 97.2% of the time av11 88.9% of the time, av12 75% of the time and av13 55.6% of the time. Imagine how many vehicles you can get under that template! And skimmers can't do anything about it! And that's not even considering the anti-infantry potential.
On top of that it has an ignores cover demolisher cannon (huge) and 4 tl lascannon shots.
On a 14/13/12 12hp base, with ceremite, which is a massive deal for LoW - as we all know melta is their bane.
It's a giant fire magnet that is more durable than equivalent LoW due to ceremite and has a good chance of taking away fire power of less durable units.
That's what I see looking at the reviews anyway - I can't actually contribute any experience with it to the discussion.
Maybe I just judge firepower these days at how good it is at taking out serpents lol.
For 350pts? That's insane! I read about that one but in the reviews it didn't actually hint at the points for it anywhere. That is incredibly good for its points. Thats the one that has a 24" range when moving and 48" when stationary right? It can buy ceremite as well I assume?
Poly Ranger wrote: For 350pts? That's insane! I read about that one but in the reviews it didn't actually hint at the points for it anywhere. That is incredibly good for its points. Thats the one that has a 24" range when moving and 48" when stationary right? It can buy ceremite as well I assume?
Correct on all counts.
It can also buy sponsons, and gets +1 on the thunderblitz table, with 6HP AV14 all around.
It does do the same thing. That makes it even more powerful. An absolute steal!
The only weapons that would worry me with this and the fellblade are lances and haywire. A deepstriking stormtek filled royal court will still decimate the two of them.
Just realised the significance of the +1 on the thunderblitz table. It will destroy a vehicle 1/3 of the time, and 2/3 of the time it will cause a st10 hit with 2d6 armour penetration (7 for armour, +1 for tank, +2 for superheavy, +d6 for kerrsmash)... just wow!
Poly Ranger wrote: It does do the same thing. That makes it even more powerful. An absolute steal!
The only weapons that would worry me with this and the fellblade are lances and haywire. A deepstriking stormtek filled royal court will still decimate the two of them.
Just realised the significance of the +1 on the thunderblitz table. It will destroy a vehicle 1/3 of the time, and 2/3 of the time it will cause a st10 hit with 2d6 armour penetration (7 for armour, +1 for tank, +2 for superheavy, +d6 for kerrsmash)... just wow!
Take schism of mars for haywire protection (and random tank hunter)?
Fair enough. Necrons would be your main worry then? Perhaps load up on Hyperios Tarantula batteries?
On that topic - what's the point in taking the command platform for them?
ansacs wrote: Some of the vehicles that are great and why;
*Land Raider Achilles is awesome.
One of the toughest non super heavies in the game, good damage output, and holds a squad to dump out when needed. Immunity to melta truly is a great addition to AV14.
*Deimos Predator w/ plasma destroyer
It is 3 plasma cannon shots a turn without gets hot on an AV13 chasis. They are pretty great and their are a few different ways to get tank hunter and lascannons on it.
*Sicaran
Very nice tank with its Accel Autocannon and AV13 all around. It is even fairly cheap. This is an excellent tank in a number of ways. The basic incarnation is a fast vehicle that can pop skimmers very well and is effective against most light armour and even troops. You can however start putting more and more upgrades on it to make it more effective at a given job. Do you want to push forward aggressively to try getting side armour? Ceramite + AV13 around makes this a pain to kill even at short range and you can add legacies to make it even more tough (it makes some great mobile cover btw). Long range tank hunter? Lascannons + tank hunter legacy and sit back hunt. The main gun is even pretty decent against some flyers.
*Whirlwind Scorpius
This is one of the most brutal tanks available to SM. The damage output one of these can put out is just fantastic. You can even hunt special weapons out of units and it can do a real number on most vehicles.
*Storm Eagle Roc Pattern
This has a great transport capacity and very good weapons (rockets + LC + Typhoon ML). The range on one of these is not to be scoffed. BTW it has DS so DS it in a rear corner of your opponent's deployment zone and fire into rear armour often making it impossible for the opponent's flyers to turn around and shoot you.
*Fire Raptor Gunship
This is probably the most damaging of the SM flyers and will gun down infantry and FMC with impunity. The ability to engage 4 different targets at the same time and 3 of it's weapons to fire at full BS despite shaken, jink, etc. is just incredible.
*Caestus Assault Ram
This is a great vehicle when used to put the right SM unit into melee. The vehicle is very difficult to take down, has good damage output, but the biggest benefit is the ability to zoom on and ram something important and then throw a bunch of angry astartes into the poor buggers nearby. BTW I recommend storm shield equipped units as even if the flyer crashes they are likely to survive the crash and still get to charge. However this is the only way I have seen to get melee honour guard to consistently work.
*Javelin Attack Speeder
These are what speeders wish they were. Great weapon choices at decent prices, AV11, and DS. One of the great uses for this vehicle is to take CML, 2x HK missile, and MM. You DS them behind the opponent (of to the side) and shoot all four weapons (combat speed fast vehicle). These can make advancing for the opponents vehicles very dangerous and are good against Sv3+ MC as well. With the new score as you go the opponent almost always needs to expose some weak armour. The ability to engage from a distance though is the biggest benefit for AV11 skimmers.
*Contemptor Mortis Dread
This thing is incredible with kheres assault cannons. Tough and good firepower.
*Tarantula Sentry Gun
Oft overlooked as it is cheap and does relatively little damage. However it is the best way to ensure you stay on the board if you run a turn 2 reserves army. Get a couple of these on the board next to a comms relay and it becomes almost impossible to alpha strike you off the board. Upgrading them to hyperios makes them more useful but also brings the price up enough you should consider rapiers.
*Rapier battery
These are an incredible value as either quad HB or laser destroyers. They are tough and do a lot of damage for their pts. The only reason you don't hear a lot about them is that they are relatively immobile and vulnerable to CC whereas the SM army has to stay mobile and cannot afford to leave a unit to act as a body guard. They work great as turn 1 support for a turn 2 reserves army.
*Land Raider Proteus w/ Augur Web
The proteus is pretty mediocre but being able to give it scout and either a -1 to enemy reserves or reroll your own reserve rolls can be huge. Give the unit inside a beacon to DS on then DS your units off the AV14 hull. Very useful but it needs a very specific type of list (the scions flyer formation or the GK strike force are good combos for this).
*Vortimer Razorback
This is now the only way to get the old S7 autocannon razorbacks now. It is also psychic so you get an extra WC. I wouldn't buy it based on these rules though as there will almost assuredly be an errata.
*SoB Repressor
This is an excellent transport especially for dominions as they can fire from the firepoints and enjoy an AV13 transport. The HF is good and it has a nice price point.
Well those are my general thoughts of the vehicles in IA2ed2. I have used stand ins for most of them and have some of the models. On the model front pretty much all of these models are gorgeous when properly assembled but make sure you are ready for a major project if you get the larger resin vehicles as there will be significant warping and large resin vehicles tend to be a hassle to assemble. They look absolutely incredible though.
Pretty much all he said! The Typhoon should also get a mention; it is very cheap for the firepower it delivers.
It is also worth mentoning that the IH chapter tactics really start to shine with those vehicles and warmachines.
The typhon with armored ceramite can be a great replacement for a knight errant. basically the same amount of points only a better firebase.
I have to give props to my favorite tank I use in almost every game... the Predator Executioner "Madame' Guillotine" that has the kelyek LoG. 3 ignores cover plasma cannons is nothing to laugh at, and it's the bain of a marine's existence.
Since Legacies can also be put on regular vehicles, why not tank hunter on a storm raven? =D
Tactical_Genius wrote: Fair enough. Necrons would be your main worry then? Perhaps load up on Hyperios Tarantula batteries?
On that topic - what's the point in taking the command platform for them?
You can have a battery of 3 launchers, firing heatseeker, interceptor, skyfire Krak missiles at one target or you can upgrade one launcher to a command platform and have 2 launchers being able to split fire at different targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tactical_Genius wrote: Ok guys I've written a list and want your opinions on it. (I'm gonna post in army lists too).
1850pts Battleforged
Primary Detachment - Clan Raukaan CAD: HQ Master of the Forge w. the ironstone
3 servitors
Troops
5 marines in infernum pattern razorback
5 marines in infernum pattern razorback
5 marines in infernum pattern razorback
Heavy Support
Land Raider Achilles
3x Hyperios Tarantulas
Sicaran Battle Tank w. Lascannons and Schism of Mars
Lord of War
Typhon w. lascannons and ceramite
Allied Detachment - Dark Angels: HQ Librarian w. PFG
Troops
5 marines in infernum pattern razorback
1845 (I think).
Thoughts? Improvements?
Just a quick note - the Hyperios battery is a Fast Attack choice
Looks fantastic! To make it 2k id include a culexus to prevent invisibility neutering your firepower.
Maybe take the achilles out and spend the points on even more fancy snazz. It's a lot of points for its damage output even if it is wolverine-esq indestructible.
Poly Ranger wrote: Looks fantastic! To make it 2k id include a culexus to prevent invisibility neutering your firepower.
Maybe take the achilles out and spend the points on even more fancy snazz. It's a lot of points for its damage output even if it is wolverine-esq indestructible.
It's mainly there to put the libby in to give the 4++ bubble to all the surrounding vehicles, and the MOTF goes in too for the ironstone bubble too.
Makes everything stupidly survivable.
I think the MoTF might be a bit overkill. I rather make some room for a Chapter Master with all the fixins. It will make your army a bit more flexible.
Thud wrote: I think the MoTF might be a bit overkill. I rather make some room for a Chapter Master with all the fixins. It will make your army a bit more flexible.
He's there to keep the vehicles alive for significantly longer.
Plus a CM would not fit in anywhere, so would just die.
Poly Ranger wrote: Looks fantastic! To make it 2k id include a culexus to prevent invisibility neutering your firepower.
Maybe take the achilles out and spend the points on even more fancy snazz. It's a lot of points for its damage output even if it is wolverine-esq indestructible.
It's mainly there to put the libby in to give the 4++ bubble to all the surrounding vehicles, and the MOTF goes in too for the ironstone bubble too.
Makes everything stupidly survivable.
Good thinking!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thud wrote: I think the MoTF might be a bit overkill. I rather make some room for a Chapter Master with all the fixins. It will make your army a bit more flexible.
Doesn't he need a MotF to include more than 1 relic of the armoury?
Ahhh. I assumed the achilles was one too. Have you thought about 3 Sicarans in one force? With a Typhon? What would we be talking there with all having lascannons and there being a schism of mars thrown in as well as ceremite on the Typhon, 950-1000pts? That'd be pretty solid - and a lot more dangerous than 4 land raiders I reckon...
Poly Ranger wrote: Ahhh. I assumed the achilles was one too. Have you thought about 3 Sicarans in one force? With a Typhon? What would we be talking there with all having lascannons and there being a schism of mars thrown in as well as ceremite on the Typhon, 950-1000pts? That'd be pretty solid - and a lot more dangerous than 4 land raiders I reckon...
It's certainly a lot of firepower, but I prefer the achilles to help with survivability, especially with protecting warlord.
Also that combo would be 1060pts, I think.
The problem is this: You are paying well over the standard cost for its armament, it lacks assault vehicle, and cannot transport terminator or centurion squads.
What you have is a very expensive artillery piece. Whilst against most lists it won't die, I can't see it earning its points back or being a MVP unit most of the time.
I have used one to put Belial in in my DW army, to boost the range of his TP homer (normal raiders were out due to the armount of lance weapons being thron around), and it worked out well (I rolled a hit with the TFC's first shot 5/6 shooting phases, which helped).
However, outside of niche lists and tactics (like iron hands achilles with a DA PFG inside), I don't see it being better than the Spartan.
The problem is this: You are paying well over the standard cost for its armament, it lacks assault vehicle, and cannot transport terminator or centurion squads.
What you have is a very expensive artillery piece. Whilst against most lists it won't die, I can't see it earning its points back or being a MVP unit most of the time.
I have used one to put Belial in in my DW army, to boost the range of his TP homer (normal raiders were out due to the armount of lance weapons being thron around), and it worked out well (I rolled a hit with the TFC's first shot 5/6 shooting phases, which helped).
However, outside of niche lists and tactics (like iron hands achilles with a DA PFG inside), I don't see it being better than the Spartan.
Yeah, that's why I tend to use them to protect warlord and give out a nice 4++ bubble (as well as extend the Ironstone bubble too).
They also have some use in that they're almost guaranteed to get the full game's shooting, and 5-7 rounds from a thunderfire cannon is invaluable in killing OS units in an army that might have bigger problems on the whole.
Just thought of an even better use for schism of mars:
Contemptor Mortis dread with 2 kheres assault cannons and a cyclone missile launcher coming down on turn1 in a lucius drop pod. Disembark and stay in base contact with the pod (behind it) for a 3+ cover save. Obviously aiming to get rear or side armour on tanks.
12 st6 rending shots, rerolling to glance/pen. 2 st8 shots rerolling to glance/pen. And by turn 2 it also has the option of skyfire and interceptor if it likes.
Poly Ranger wrote: Just thought of an even better use for schism of mars:
Contemptor Mortis dread with 2 kheres assault cannons and a cyclone missile launcher coming down on turn1 in a lucius drop pod. Disembark and stay in base contact with the pod (behind it) for a 3+ cover save. Obviously aiming to get rear or side armour on tanks.
12 st6 rending shots, rerolling to glance/pen. 2 st8 shots rerolling to glance/pen. And by turn 2 it also has the option of skyfire and interceptor if it likes.
24" won't be an issue due to drop pod deployment.
Generally I don't think 35pts is ever worth it for the missile launcher.
Also, don't ever disembark from the pod; there is no requirement to do so.
Even if that missile launcher has 2 shots, tank hunter, and optional skyfire + interceptor. AND can be placed anywhere on the board on a 'relentless' (being a vehicle) av13 platform? ;-)
Automatically Appended Next Post: 2 IF tank hunting devs with missile launcher with flakk cost 78pts remember. And that doesn't come with interceptor or relentless.
Poly Ranger wrote: 2 IF tank hunting devs with missile launcher with flakk cost 78pts remember. And that doesn't come with interceptor or relentless.
They're also considered some of the most inefficient anti-air units in the game And that includes carrier cost, whereas the 35pts doesn't. My point was that the 2 S8 shots are often superfluous on a platform that already does superb damage No POTMS means the shots are often wasted.
Very good point - I had indeed added the carrier costs which skews the comparison. However - if already taking the Contemp mortis, id still say its worth its cost. 12 st6 rending shots will indeed often wreck a tank with tank hunter, but with skimmers and flyers those two st8 tank hunting shots will often make the difference, or finish off a lucky tank if not a skimmer.
Also - will help out when engaging meq and MCs.
Plus with its durability - it'll probably get a good amount of shots off and make its points back.
As you say, without Potms it will result in overkill on already damaged tanks. On paper though it gives you a much better likelyhood at killing a full hp tank.
I CAN'T WAIT FOR IA:2 TO ARRIVE!!! Thank you for this thread Tactical!
Poly Ranger wrote: Very good point - I had indeed added the carrier costs which skews the comparison. However - if already taking the Contemp mortis, id still say its worth its cost. 12 st6 rending shots will indeed often wreck a tank with tank hunter, but with skimmers and flyers those two st8 tank hunting shots will often make the difference, or finish off a lucky tank if not a skimmer.
Also - will help out when engaging meq and MCs.
Plus with its durability - it'll probably get a good amount of shots off and make its points back.
As you say, without Potms it will result in overkill on already damaged tanks. On paper though it gives you a much better likelyhood at killing a full hp tank.
I CAN'T WAIT FOR IA:2 TO ARRIVE!!! Thank you for this thread Tactical!
Fair play.
I've always liked taking them, but if you think that 35pts can buy you some serious kit I'll run some numbers a little later and post here And no worries
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok I have the numbers:
Without cyclone but with schism (not rerolling glances):
AV10: 6HP, 4 pens
AV11: 4.444HP, 2.222 pens
AV12: 2.444HP, 2.444 pens
AV13: 2.444HP, 1.629629 pens
AV14: 1.679HP, 0.84 pens
Ahh fair enough. Yeh it looks as though the sicaran wins out there. The advantages for the comp mort are drop pod deployment and also great anti-personal... just doesn't make up for that +1s on the rending (even with double shots), ignores jink and 2 lascannon shots over missile shots...
Poly Ranger wrote: Ahh fair enough. Yeh it looks as though the sicaran wins out there. The advantages for the comp mort are drop pod deployment and also great anti-personal... just doesn't make up for that +1s on the rending (even with double shots), ignores jink and 2 lascannon shots over missile shots...
Plus the sicaran is 85pts cheaper with all the bells and whistles.
The big advantages of the contemptor over the sicaran is the anti air ability and it's relative invulnerability to krak grenades and the like. Notice that the AV12 column w/ cyclone has you putting down the flyer with room to spare for a 5+ daemon and the AV11 can handle a jink and still average putting down a nightscythe. They are both good against light vehicles where the sicarn is better against jinking serpents and the like and the contemptor is better against flying targets.
Poly Ranger wrote: Ahh fair enough. Yeh it looks as though the sicaran wins out there. The advantages for the comp mort are drop pod deployment and also great anti-personal... just doesn't make up for that +1s on the rending (even with double shots), ignores jink and 2 lascannon shots over missile shots...
Plus the sicaran is 85pts cheaper with all the bells and whistles.
It is also a fast vehicle, with longer range weapons, which makes it harder to avoid.
A plus and con is that it is a pretty large vehicle (only slightly smaller than a landraider). This means that it is harder to hide, but can also be used for LoS blocking.
ansacs wrote:The big advantages of the contemptor over the sicaran is the anti air ability and it's relative invulnerability to krak grenades and the like. Notice that the AV12 column w/ cyclone has you putting down the flyer with room to spare for a 5+ daemon and the AV11 can handle a jink and still average putting down a nightscythe. They are both good against light vehicles where the sicarn is better against jinking serpents and the like and the contemptor is better against flying targets.
Agreed. I like contemptors mainly for their flexibility - they can take on (in some way) anything in the game with some measure of efficacy.
However, these numbers require the Schism of Mars, which is almost always going to be better off on the Sicaran.
Poly Ranger wrote: Ahh fair enough. Yeh it looks as though the sicaran wins out there. The advantages for the comp mort are drop pod deployment and also great anti-personal... just doesn't make up for that +1s on the rending (even with double shots), ignores jink and 2 lascannon shots over missile shots...
Plus the sicaran is 85pts cheaper with all the bells and whistles.
It is also a fast vehicle, with longer range weapons, which makes it harder to avoid.
A plus and con is that it is a pretty large vehicle (only slightly smaller than a landraider). This means that it is harder to hide, but can also be used for LoS blocking.
Yeah, that's true.
Admittedly the Lucius Pod confers some pretty awesome advantages to the contemptor, but I still think the Sicaran wins out on pure kill potential.
Tactical_Genius wrote: Agreed. I like contemptors mainly for their flexibility - they can take on (in some way) anything in the game with some measure of efficacy.
However, these numbers require the Schism of Mars, which is almost always going to be better off on the Sicaran.
Tactical_Genius wrote: Agreed. I like contemptors mainly for their flexibility - they can take on (in some way) anything in the game with some measure of efficacy.
However, these numbers require the Schism of Mars, which is almost always going to be better off on the Sicaran.
ansacs wrote: It really is. So flavorful and just plain cool. Though you would loose ObjSec I believe for using the FOC presented. Still awesome though.
It looks to me like you only have to take that if your primary detachment is from there; I see nothing preventing a CAD when the list isn't used for the primary detachment. (Which means ObSec dreadnoughts )
I love siege assault vanguard. I've proxied (I have 1 auto-las, 1 tri las and lots of baals) and used it a few times and used a 3 strong predator squadron with autocannons, lascannons and tank hunter for 6 st7 and 6 st9 ap2 tank hunting shots. I ran them as IH back in 6th so could also easily get prescience back then.
The squadron comes in at a ridiculously cheap 345pts.
Also ran it (proxied tac marines as tac marines with manlets) as red scorpions for tac marines with a 3+ rerollable followed by a 5+ fnp for almost corbulo esq durability on each marine.
The MAJOR downside of SVA is the siege objective, combined with the list seriously lacking the actual ability to get to the objective quickly without investing in expensive landraiders or flimsy rhinos. IA2 could seriously help reduce this disadvantage.
Putting the two together is a very smart move. Does IA2 allow units to be taken with SVA?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also if you can take them together can you take a lucius drop pod since drop pods are denied otherwise?
Poly Ranger wrote: I love siege assault vanguard. I've proxied (I have 1 auto-las, 1 tri las and lots of baals) and used it a few times and used a 3 strong predator squadron with autocannons, lascannons and tank hunter for 6 st7 and 6 st9 ap2 tank hunting shots. I ran them as IH back in 6th so could also easily get prescience back then.
The squadron comes in at a ridiculously cheap 345pts.
Also ran it (proxied tac marines as tac marines with manlets) as red scorpions for tac marines with a 3+ rerollable followed by a 5+ fnp for almost corbulo esq durability on each marine.
The MAJOR downside of SVA is the siege objective, combined with the list seriously lacking the actual ability to get to the objective quickly without investing in expensive landraiders or flimsy rhinos. IA2 could seriously help reduce this disadvantage.
Putting the two together is a very smart move. Does IA2 allow units to be taken with SVA?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also if you can take them together can you take a lucius drop pod since drop pods are denied otherwise?
Never mind - just realised the lucius is already an option...
It does indeed. I mean can you take IA2 options which are not listed in the SVA list?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ahhh - they are all there anyway. I was looking for the contemptor mortis in the heavies so I missed it! I always overlooked the IA2 options as I never really knew the units until now...
Poly Ranger wrote: Never mind - just realised the lucius is already an option...
It does indeed. I mean can you take IA2 options which are not listed in the SVA list?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ahhh - they are all there anyway. I was looking for the contemptor mortis in the heavies so I missed it! I always overlooked the IA2 options as I never really knew the units until now...
Fair enough Is there any reason why I can't use Clan Raukaan with the SAV list?
Quick question that I can't answer until the book gets here:
If a dread of any kind takes shrouded provenance, can it take a drop pod/lucius drop pod since it will then count as an ally of convenience to the detachment? Does it's dedicated transport belong to it or to the detachment?
Poly Ranger wrote: Quick question that I can't answer until the book gets here:
If a dread of any kind takes shrouded provenance, can it take a drop pod/lucius drop pod since it will then count as an ally of convenience to the detachment? Does it's dedicated transport belong to it or to the detachment?
My best guess would be that it can't deploy in the pod.
YMDC may disagree though
That's a pity. An av13 IWND venerable dread with a 3+ cover and the crazy fire power of a contemptor mortis would be a serious thorne in the opponents flank...
Poly Ranger wrote: That's a pity. An av13 IWND venerable dread with a 3+ cover and the crazy fire power of a contemptor mortis would be a serious thorne in the opponents flank...
I like podding 3 twin-kheres dreads down turn one, preferably in ruins, and leaving them in the pods. They're stupidly survivable and can shoot at full effectiveness thanks to open-topped.
No! A Blood Angel - Land Raider without scatter when he Deep Strikes is thé way to go.
It makes the game fun, even if you lose There's no better way to get a squad of Death Company in the middle of the enemy forces.
DarknessEternal wrote: Are you sure you can take more than one of the same Relic of the Armoury even with a Master of Relics?
Whilst I haven't read the book cover to cover (not even properly started - it's HUGE!) haven't yet seen anything prohibiting it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kangodo wrote: No! A Blood Angel - Land Raider without scatter when he Deep Strikes is thé way to go.
It makes the game fun, even if you lose There's no better way to get a squad of Death Company in the middle of the enemy forces.
While it looks fun - it would still be a turn 3 charge at the earliest. Slingshot escape hatch bunker or just turbo-boosting a landraider seems a better bet!
Our new secret-tech is to attach an Inquisitor First turn Scout, Hatred or Fear on the Attack.
Rad Grenades + Psychotroke Grenades.
And the best part: Servo-skulls that make sure we don't scatter at all with Jump Packs.
Now you wonder: "But Kangodo, won't that cost 200 points? Since everything is so expensive for Blood Angels!"
No, not really. It's around the same amount as a Scout Squad.
Drop Pods don't need that scatter protection.
But a Redeemer can still wreck a lot of stuff in the turn he drops.
Don't forget: We Sanguine players do it for the fun, not to win.
I totally agree - I use inquisitors a lot ;-). The liber heresius one works well with a mephi star for the scout (plus doesn't change majority toughness). Rad granades are great on almost anything - but a bit OTT on DC who will each have 5 st5 attacks each rerolling both to hit and wound with a chappy/reclusiarch.
Servo skulls + Vanguard Vets = awesome!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wasn't meaning no scatter on a DPbtw - just mean a DC dread staying safe in a lucius after he lands could be great!
Woah, woah, woah... let me get this right - the land raider prometheus can reduce two units cover save by 1 a turn (battle auspex + PotMS)?
Plus since it is named differently to an auspex, combined with a characters auspex you could potentially reduce an opponents units cover save by 2?
)
