Anyone watch last night?

I liked it, but I'm kinda wondering if it will last. It's cool that it takes place in gotham, but other than that it looks like it's gonna be just another cop show. I liked what they did there with the grumpy Alfred though.

What did ya think?

I hope it lasts. We're never going to get a Law & Order: Gotham City, where we focus on the GCPD and the Gotham District Attorney's office, and where Batman is a tertiary character that pops up a few times a season, so this is as close as it gets.

Not heard of it yet. Is it a show that actually takes place in Gotham City aka Batman universe? Does it focus on the other characters?

 Sigvatr wrote:
Not heard of it yet. Is it a show that actually takes place in Gotham City aka Batman universe? Does it focus on the other characters?

It's supposed to be Batman without Batman.

It's like a cop show about Commissioner Gordon, when he was a new detective, and it's got all of the classic Batman characters before they were heroes/villains.

And Bruce Wayne is 15, so there's not Batman yet. It's an ambitious take on the whole mythos, but there's a fear that won't ever escape the fact that, as squidhills said, it's a Batman show without Batman.

I spoke with a couple of co-workers, and they both thought it was pretty neat. I heard that it's going to be on Hulu, so I'll check it out tonight.

It is on Hulu.

Not bad for a start, but not quite the same punch I like. Still, it could pick up. We'll see.

If we know Fox, at the end of this season they'll get cold feet and cancel it, just like they did with Almost Human, Firefly, and IIRC Brooklyn 99 (and should have done with Sleepy Hollow)

I have it recorded at home, and will be watching it tonight if I can pry the kids off the TV with a Crowbar.. else I will be watching it Thursday I guess..

No sign of it coming to the UK yet as far as I know :(

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
and IIRC Brooklyn 99

The new season of Brooklyn 99 starts this upcoming Sunday.

I'm not sure how to feel about Gotham yet, tbh. It seems to have the ingredients to do something interesting but not sure if it will follow through. Donal Logue is a good Harvey Bullock, though.

 porkuslime wrote:
I have it recorded at home, and will be watching it tonight if I can pry the kids off the TV with a Crowbar.. else I will be watching it Thursday I guess..

Now, now...it's a Batman show, so you're supposed to hit them with the crowbar, Joker/Jason Todd style. Also, don't tell your wife I said that, or else she may use said crowbar on my head next time I actually make it out to visit you guys!!

I enjoyed it. I'm curious where they will go with it for sure.

I am a bit worried that dramatic tension will be difficult to maintain given we know so many characters not only survive this era but what they become etc.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
If we know Fox, at the end of this season they'll get cold feet and cancel it, just like they did with Almost Human, Firefly, and IIRC Brooklyn 99 (and should have done with Sleepy Hollow)

Don't forget that they'll air the episodes out of order as well.

I enjoyed the pilot, though I hope they include other baddies in the show besides the main Batman super villains and keep the focus on Jim Gordon and the Gcpd.

The Batman villains either don't exist yet or nascent, so I don't think they will be the ones causing to much trouble for the most part. It will most likely be characters like Mooney and Falcone and how their actions, along with the GCPDs, lead to the Gotham of Batman, including his rogues gallery.

And that's the way it really should be. The Gotham crime families were a big deal until the concept of "super villains" showed up and ran most of 'em out of town. They couldn't compete.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And that's the way it really should be. The Gotham crime families were a big deal until the concept of "super villains" showed up and ran most of 'em out of town. They couldn't compete.

But at the same time, the Falcone organization is STILL the big name in "organized crime" in Gotham, even after Batman sort of takes over. Which is something I've never understood really... How would an organization like the Falcones, without super powers/abilities be able to really survive in an environment where guys like Joker, Penguin and other "gang leader" type supervillains are so prevalent. About the only thing I can think of, is due to the nature of Bats' story, and how so many of the big names continually get put into Arkham (and then escape) the Falcones survive by being just enough under the radar that they are filthy rich, still criminal, but sort of plug holes that the Supers leave, until such a time as they "need" them again.

They stay in business because they're not insane. They're not planning to poison Gotham's water system (because that'd bad for business) or mutate all of Gotham's fish (because that'd be bad for business), or make a spectacle of the city's government by killing the mayor and DA (because that'd be bad for business), or threaten to blow up buildings unless someone can solve their riddles (because that'd be bad for business). Organised crime didn't get to where it is today by boldly stating to their respective cities that they're going to rob/steal/blow up/kill a bunch of stuff/people uness XYZ conditions are met.

Falcone was right. They're businessmen. They're still criminals, but they're not batgak crazy.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Falcone was right. They're businessmen. They're still criminals, but they're not batgak crazy.

Finally got to watch the episode tonight, and I fairly well liked it.... I think this sentiment from Falcone could really set the tone... Although, Gordon's actions and the "coming soon" scene really could (obviously do) have some far reaching ramifications


The one thing that did somewhat bug me was that, I kind of got the feeling in many of the comics that Batman's main enemies should be much closer in age to him, with a few exceptions.... I mean, Penguin being "much" older is no issue, Catwoman being "older, but not too old to say no to a shag" is alright as well... but I always just felt that Joker (who hasn't, AFAIK, been introduced) and Riddler were much closer in age to Bruce. Two-Face I can see being a tiny bit older, but not by much. I mean, obviously even a "hot shot, quick climbing lawyer" still has to get through law school in order to become a lawyer in the first place



Also... in the meat plant.... who was the dude in the mask?? Surely he can't be some crazy, bizarre, pre-Bats "Bane" can he?? Also:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And that's the way it really should be. The Gotham crime families were a big deal until the concept of "super villains" showed up and ran most of 'em out of town. They couldn't compete.

If I had my guess, by the end of the entire series, Ms. Fish will probably be made "redundant" by way of a "corporate restructuring", if you know what I mean

Quite enjoyable and promising. I'm hoping for more characters, I can see the focus on Gordon and his partner going stale after a while. I admit, the lack of crowbar was a bit disappointing.

I'm hoping Konstantine will deliver the same quality.

Posted this to facebook just now: Wasn't massively impressed by Gotham, sadly. The acting and dialogue was fairly ropy in places and I'm not sure if they'll be able to get away with that given the current wealth of excellently written and acted TV shows. There were some highlights though: I thought Benjamin Mackenzie was good, though he seemed to be struggling manfully against a script that was so... Obvious. The scenes with Barbara were particularly poor. The 'Oswald Cobblepot' character was great, well acted, and I enjoyed the foreshadowing; see also: Edward Nigma and 'Un-named Stand-up comedian at audition'.

I'll keep watching, but I hope it gets better.

I actually thought Cobblepot was terrible XD

Flaw #1; You're the only one who saw your boss give someone the pearls. How was she not going to figure out Cobblepot was ratting on her to the cops? Obviously she did find out, but even if it didn't come out till later, if you're the only one who knows, of course she's going to know it was you.

What's the end game here genius? No wonder Batman always beats you

 Albatross wrote:
'Un-named Stand-up comedian at audition'.

I'll keep watching, but I hope it gets better.

I sincerely hope that he doesn't become the Joker.... Unless of course, they make him into the Red Hood or some other B rated villain first (which, Red Hood would probably work since in that story line, he doesn't really fight Bats until the night he falls into the acid)

That could be an interesting massive tease going throughout the entire run of the show.

Have a number of minor characters and bit players that could be The Joker. Perhaps even have one or two of them wear 'The Red Hood' in the later seasons.

Then, if you were to introduce The Joker into the very last episode, for example... Leave the real source of him up to being any of the others previously hinted at...

It'd fit The Joker perfectly.

 Compel wrote:
That could be an interesting massive tease going throughout the entire run of the show.

Have a number of minor characters and bit players that could be The Joker. Perhaps even have one or two of them wear 'The Red Hood' in the later seasons.

Then, if you were to introduce The Joker into the very last episode, for example... Leave the real source of him up to being any of the others previously hinted at...

It'd fit The Joker perfectly.

Yeah, I'd love that. Sadly, they seem to be going all out with the expostion of the big villains. I kind of would have preferred it if they'd drip-fed them in more.

Judging a pilot is actually very simple. There's only one question: Do you want to watch another episode?

But let's make it complicated for the sake of argument. Aside from some brilliant casting choices (Bullock, Penguin, importantly Gordon, maybe Montoya, great cameo by Richard Kind), I didn't see any A+ material taking things piecemeal. The cast were clearly acting, or should I say ACTING, as hard as they ever have. The lines were just a shade shy of cliche at best, although that's generous. And the whole thing is shot like a sophomoric homage to David Fincher.

It all strikes me as amateurish but ambitious, punching above its weight but (because?) every swing is sincere. In other words, it feels authentically like a comic book. More specifically, it feels authentically like the current, post "dark age" era of comic books, where the creators grew up as fan(atic)s and bring that credulity to the work whether or not they really have the talent or skill to totally pull it off.

Just take a look at Gotham itself: it's as real as it is unreal, simultaneously bleak and colorful, grimy and majestic ... and sometimes plain hokey in the case of Barbara Kean's bizarre apartment. This is certainly what a suburban comic book nerd thinks the big city is all about. I mean, gangsters killing people in a meat locker while dressed in nightclub attire? I'm not saying it never happens in real life but it definitely does happen in comic books.

And let's face it, our present era of comics is first and foremost concerned with character studies. Adventure, mystery, fable -- they only exist in contemporary comics as satellites orbiting the title's star. Super heroes (or super gods per Grant Morrison) have ascended to mythopoeic status. We are drawn to them as self-justifying fictional beings whose reality is stable enough to survive and even thrive in translation (as Zeus is Jupiter in Rome), which only makes them more more compelling to a reboot culture endlessly fascinated by (re)interpretation. New 52. Marvel Now. Everything is different, everything is the same, sales are up.

That's why this show exists. Character study is the key, which is probably why the casting is so polished. For example, think about how much we see of Selena Kyle despite her not having a single line. She may be effectively mute but we end up knowing, or at least strong suspecting, a lot about her character. I can't help but wonder, will she grow up to be Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman or Anne Hathaway's? Will David Mazouz's Bruce Wayne grow up to be Denny O'Neill and Neal Adams's Batman? Or Frank Miller's? Scott Snyder's? What is the line connecting the sniveling, animalistic Penguin and the almost-suave owner of the Iceberg Lounge?

This is the kind of stuff that I think about anyway. As you can see, this pilot is just more grist for the mill. It fits right in to what I love about comic books. Which makes answering the one actually relevant question posed by any pilot easy for me.

 Compel wrote:
That could be an interesting massive tease going throughout the entire run of the show.

Have a number of minor characters and bit players that could be The Joker. Perhaps even have one or two of them wear 'The Red Hood' in the later seasons.

That's what they're doing. The writers have said that they're going to introduce characters throughout the season who could be the Joker, so that you're always guessing. Not every episode, but a few here and there.

So after this week's episode, I am much more intrigued, and have more questions...




Also, wasn't there a supervillain in Batman who's real name was Lazlo? If so, did we see him in tonights episode?

The Dollmaker is a very creepy bad guy. He was even a bad guy last year on Arrow.

New episode was good. Hope they keep up the good work.

I still like grumpy Alfred the best. Like when he got all pissy and yelled at bruce for sneaking up on people all the time.

Yeah. Episode 2 was definitely good.

Not sure if I like grumpy Alfred. I normally see Alfred as a father figure, and a very loving one who doesn't yell or snap, but then again, he's a man past his prime with the responsibility of raising a young orphan on his own. That make just about anyone grumpy. Curious how Alfred will develop as the series goes on.

 LordofHats wrote:


Not sure if I like grumpy Alfred. I normally see Alfred as a father figure, and a very loving one who doesn't yell or snap, but then again, he's a man past his prime with the responsibility of raising a young orphan on his own. That make just about anyone grumpy. Curious how Alfred will develop as the series goes on.

I dunno, I see what you're saying in how you view Alfred, but I think that, given his back story there could be some cause for him to be "grumpy"

We generally know that he was a "spy" or secret agent, or black ops type of character, long before becoming a butler to the Wayne family. We know from various episodes throughout Batman the Animated Series, that eventually he tells Bruce about some of these experiences, as they are directly related to a problem the Bat is going through in that episode. This also occurs in The Dark Knight, when Michael Caine's "Alfred" warns Bruce about going after Joker because "some men just want to watch the world burn"


IIRC, I've seen somewhere that it was Alfred who began training Bruce in martial arts at some point (obviously this would be later on, much closer to when he takes on the mantle of batman), so the "cuddly" Alfred doesn't really make sense.

I was thinking of it as he starts out grumpy because he took the job as a butler never expecting to be a dad, but now he suddenly has to be, and he's way out of his comfort zone now and over time he'll eventually turn into the grandpa version.

 Necros wrote:
I was thinking of it as he starts out grumpy because he took the job as a butler never expecting to be a dad, but now he suddenly has to be, and he's way out of his comfort zone now and over time he'll eventually turn into the grandpa version.

That is true, and it doesn't take anything away from the "Super Spy" back story either

Not a fan so far. Also, when did Alfred become Australian?

Meh. Change is bad.

He's not Australian. He's English. That's what Sean Pertwee sounds like.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
He's not Australian. He's English. That's what Sean Pertwee sounds like.

You know, every time I see Sean's name, my mind initially paints it over with his father's name. Which can lead to amusing brain farts, like the one I have now... picturing Jon Pertwee playing Alfred in a gritty reboot of Batman.

squidhills wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
He's not Australian. He's English. That's what Sean Pertwee sounds like.

You know, every time I see Sean's name, my mind initially paints it over with his father's name. Which can lead to amusing brain farts, like the one I have now... picturing Jon Pertwee playing Alfred in a gritty reboot of Batman.

I actually had to IMDB him, to make sure... My memory is so fethed that I couldn't remember the Doctor's name.... and You are right, having Jon Pertwee playing Alfred would be amusing.

I finally caught up with Gotham. I was pleasantly surprised. It's definitely a different vibe than the CW shows, but it seems very high quality.

New episode tonight... With what's happened so far, and predictions??

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
With what's happened so far, and predictions??

Fish Mooney will say "Harvey" in that "I seem like I'm in a different show" kinda way, and she won't ever leave the club set she's been stuck in since the show's inception. Barbara will also stay within that clock-tower apartment, making us doubt if she really has a job. Selina Kyle will remind us again that her she wants to be called "Cat", because the writers just aren't sure they bashed us over the head enough times with the "SHE'S GOING TO BE CATWOMAN!" mallet. Alfred will have a sudden moodswing mid-sentence, either going from soft and kind to super-angry, or the other way around. Harvey Bullock will continue to be the most useless detective in a whole precinct of detectives who would fail at directing traffic, let alone catching bad guys. They'll have another gimmick-weapon villain of the week.

And all of them will be out acted by the kid playing Bruce and the guy playing Penguin, and, if he shows up, the guy playing Falcone.

I like the people playing penguine, bruce, and Gordon. I was mostly enjoying the show but forgot to record it and for some reason Fox hates Direct TV on demand so I'm basically out for the season since I'm not going to miss episodes while watching. Oh well, till Netflix.

Yes, I'm not sure I like the fact that Selina constantly wants to be called Cat. The show’s writers needs a guide in how to drop hints subtly as opposed to bashing us own the head with them.

Also I fear the show is falling in the trap of trying to juggle too many villains at once and too early. Better to introduce them gradually over the course of the seasons. Arrow is doing a much better Job in this regard. I’m liking what they are doing with Penguin though.

That’s not to say I’m not enjoying the show, I am. But now I fear it could still go very wrong.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
With what's happened so far, and predictions??

Fish Mooney will say "Harvey" in that "I seem like I'm in a different show" kinda way, and she won't ever leave the club set she's been stuck in since the show's inception. Barbara will also stay within that clock-tower apartment, making us doubt if she really has a job. Selina Kyle will remind us again that her she wants to be called "Cat", because the writers just aren't sure they bashed us over the head enough times with the "SHE'S GOING TO BE CATWOMAN!" mallet. Alfred will have a sudden moodswing mid-sentence, either going from soft and kind to super-angry, or the other way around. Harvey Bullock will continue to be the most useless detective in a whole precinct of detectives who would fail at directing traffic, let alone catching bad guys. They'll have another gimmick-weapon villain of the week.

And all of them will be out acted by the kid playing Bruce and the guy playing Penguin, and, if he shows up, the guy playing Falcone.

H.B.M.C there, succinctly summarising the reasons that I haven't bothered to watch Gotham past episode two.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
With what's happened so far, and predictions??

Fish Mooney will say "Harvey" in that "I seem like I'm in a different show" kinda way, and she won't ever leave the club set she's been stuck in since the show's inception. Barbara will also stay within that clock-tower apartment, making us doubt if she really has a job. Selina Kyle will remind us again that her she wants to be called "Cat", because the writers just aren't sure they bashed us over the head enough times with the "SHE'S GOING TO BE CATWOMAN!" mallet. Alfred will have a sudden moodswing mid-sentence, either going from soft and kind to super-angry, or the other way around. Harvey Bullock will continue to be the most useless detective in a whole precinct of detectives who would fail at directing traffic, let alone catching bad guys. They'll have another gimmick-weapon villain of the week.

And all of them will be out acted by the kid playing Bruce and the guy playing Penguin, and, if he shows up, the guy playing Falcone.

You nailed it.

Maybe salt in a few references to actors ACTING and it would be perfect!

I'm still watching it, even though I'm not 100% sure why...

 LuciusAR wrote:
Yes, I'm not sure I like the fact that Selina constantly wants to be called Cat. The show’s writers needs a guide in how to drop hints subtly as opposed to bashing us own the head with them.

Also I fear the show is falling in the trap of trying to juggle too many villains at once and too early. Better to introduce them gradually over the course of the seasons. Arrow is doing a much better Job in this regard. I’m liking what they are doing with Penguin though.

I honestly think that they're handling the "introduction" of the future supervillains pretty well. I mean, Thus far, aside from Ms. Kyle, and Cobblepot, we've only had a couple brief glimpses of other villains. Although, in the previous episode, the little girl who was taking care of plants, and was called Ivy (obviously who becomes Poison Ivy), I thought the comic version of her's real name was Pamela Isley, or something like that



Beyond that, I think that the show is handling the "main" villains quite well. They are setting up a "mob war" between Falcone and Marone (or however his name is spelled), and I think it's fleshing out quite well, with the "little" blunt force trauma "hints" that Cobblepot is orchestrating/setting up the whole thing.

I do agree that Harvey is a bit... inept. I mean, he is extremely useless, except as a "bad cop" movie trope, and then 3/4ths of the way through the episode, he says something snarky/useless that turns out to be not useless for Jim.... It's getting about how writers had been treating the Sonic Screwdriver in the 10/11th Doctor's tenures, IMO.

I like the show so far. I mean its nothing amazing but I do like the way they are portraying Gotham City.

I like The Penguins character and the actor does a good job with the character.
If I were to compare it to Agents of Shield I much prefer this show. I dislike Shield.

I have to say that as someone who doesn't know much about the Batman/DC universe, and who didn't think much of most of the Batman movies (I thought that the Dark Knight Rising was flipping godawful).....I'm quite enjoying Gotham.

It's not perfect, but I'm confident it'll mature over time.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Harvey Bullock will continue to be the most useless detective in a whole precinct of detectives who would fail at directing traffic, let alone catching bad guys.

Isn't that a good thing? I mean, I'm not exactly up on Batman lore, but surely one of the key factors in the continuing need for Batman is that the GCPD - with a few exceptions - couldn't organise an orgy in a Turkish brothel?

And all of them will be out acted by the kid playing Bruce and the guy playing Penguin, and, if he shows up, the guy playing Falcone.

Falcone has been in both episodes so far, played by John Domas. He was pretty good in The Wire, which was a fantastic series. Although the guy playing the Penguin also seems pretty decent so far.

We just aired episode 2 in the UK and the thing that gets me, is that they can't really decide on a tone.

One minute its 13 year old girl clawing someone's eyes out, literally, in a mess of blood and gore. The next, its Chitty Chitty Bang bang.

The direction is really messy too. One moment you have a great shot of Gotham brought to life. The next you have the really cheesy Blair witch style camera angleof under someone's nose while they run away.

The show just feels all over the place, whereascArrow manages a consistent tone throughout. YMMV on whether you like that tone or not.

This most recent episode was good. I liked it a lot more than I thought I would. And hey, Fish left the club for half a second. It's still not great, but it has elements that are good: Bruce and Alfred's relationship takes a nice turn this episode, Robin Lord Taylor continues to play Penguin very well, I think that Maroni being a more scrappy working-class mob-boss makes a very nice contrast to the extremely upper-class criminal of Falcone. And the show has the look of Gotham down - that part of the show is perfect - but there are other elements that just don't work. On the bright side, the most recent episode introduced us to the concept of Venom, and also gave us more "season plot arc" stuff with potential corruption in Wayne Enterprises, which is a good trend if they stick with it.

Fish's plans are still cooky, but whatever.

 Inquisitor Gonzo wrote:
Isn't that a good thing? I mean, I'm not exactly up on Batman lore, but surely one of the key factors in the continuing need for Batman is that the GCPD - with a few exceptions - couldn't organise an orgy in a Turkish brothel?

They were corrupt, not incompetent.

 Inquisitor Gonzo wrote:
Falcone has been in both episodes so far, played by John Domas. He was pretty good in The Wire, which was a fantastic series. Although the guy playing the Penguin also seems pretty decent so far.

Well, there have been 5 episodes so far, not two. I know who he played in The Wire (and on Person of Interest).

@ HBMC - We're only on episode 2 in the UK

...which I thought was considerably better than the first. Selina Kyle stopped crawling around on all fours and got to say a few lines, but I couldn't wrap my head around the idea that she would claw someone's eyes out. She's only about 13 and doesn't otherwise appear to have a violent streak.

Aside from the stupid penguin references, the best thing in the show is Copplepot's story so far. The actor playing him is doing fine work.

I'm still enjoying it.. but fish is starting to bug me. I think it's mostly the whole "Mrs. Pinket Smith refuses to travel to whatever cheap place we're filming in, so we gotta do all her stuff in 1 location" thing.

 Necros wrote:
I'm still enjoying it.. but fish is starting to bug me. I think it's mostly the whole "Mrs. Pinket Smith refuses to travel to whatever cheap place we're filming in, so we gotta do all her stuff in 1 location" thing.

My guess is that before we get to season's end, Ms. Fish will be dining with her own kind* in the bay






*as in, "She'll be sleeping with the fishes" not a race thing

So, watched the newest episode last night, and here's my prediction for next week:





quite the dramatic ending (I won't spoil it for those who haven't watched it.


In slightly unrelated terms, I have a gut feeling I know what is going to cause Edward to turn to a life of crime....

We just had Episode 3 here (Balloonman) and yeah, I'm just not sure about the tone of the show at all.

One moment it's cheesy, like super cheesy, verging on Adam West cheesy. The next, it's almost got this sort of disturbing slightly gleeful violence that makes me a bit uncomfortable actually. - Despite it being nowhere near Walking Dead / GoT etc.

 Compel wrote:
We just had Episode 3 here (Balloonman) and yeah, I'm just not sure about the tone of the show at all.

Im probably a bit biased, as I do really like the show, but IIRC, Balloonman wasn't the greatest episode, regardless of what show it was on.... Give it a bit more, but keep in mind, when you say it has a gleeful enjoyment of violence... that's kind of the point. Gotham is a city about to rip its own throat out with crime, and, by the time "little Wayne" is about to put on the pointy ears and cape, the city is a place where crime is extremely rampant, crazies like Joker, Riddler and such are, not quite common place, but no one really bats an eye when a new costumed d-bag shows up creating havoc.


This line of thought gave me another one

But that's sort of the thing I'm having issues with.

It's not that the characters enjoy violence, is the thing that giving me that twinge. - Compare with, say, Joffrey in GoT, or The Hunters in The Walking Dead. Or, say, a scene in the Soprano's.

It's more, "hey, look how funny this is, the guys beating up this bloke with a trophy he calls Sergeant Daniel that's utterly hilarious."

 Compel wrote:
But that's sort of the thing I'm having issues with.

It's not that the characters enjoy violence, is the thing that giving me that twinge. - Compare with, say, Joffrey in GoT, or The Hunters in The Walking Dead. Or, say, a scene in the Soprano's.

It's more, "hey, look how funny this is, the guys beating up this bloke with a trophy he calls Sergeant Daniel that's utterly hilarious."

But... But... Jim Gordon


I get what you're saying... But if you keep watching the show, I think it's definitely gone away from "look how funny cops hurting people can be" to "look how sick and twisted this city is, it's no wonder a Caped Crusader shows up"

I don't know much about this past weeks' bad guy, but I suspect that it was geared towards nodding at another character/villain from the Batman time period, and it's definitely less systemic violence and pointing towards the select, sick, few.

Everything seems to be building toward a breaking point in the city where it just gives up. My guess is going to be the solution to "who killed the Wayne's" will be the moment that sends it careening down the rabbit hole.

I'm enjoying the show, and it was interesting to see how they set some things up, such as the early Venom, but I feel like they need to wrap the show up in two seasons or the story will get muddled.

I'm enjoying it, but keep thinking their in danger if making every Batman Universe villain Jim Gordon's fault because of some innocuous butterfly effect type exposition.

The only annoying thing is Edward Nigma turning up every other week and almost looking at the camera, raising his eyebrows and mouthing "guess who I am?" Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Balloon man was alright in a clumsy foreshadowing kinda way.

Weird thing I found is that Gotham seems to be getting wide audience demographics in my experience. I've already had a few conversations with some ladies my office about it who I overheard talking about it who I wouldn't have had down as you typical comic book show fans. There seems to be some wide appeal here, I'm sure the OC connection helps.

So, this week's episode, "penguin's umbrella" was just as mu cheaper fun as I had anticipated. Did anyone else catch it? What did yall think?

I think episode 7 tided up the relationships between the mob bosses nicely. Can't say too much, don't want to spoil it. for UK viewers.

Edited wrong episode given.

It was pretty epic. Just the moment I think we've been waiting for to take the series from just decent to epic.

 LordofHats wrote:
It was pretty epic. Just the moment I think we've been waiting for to take the series from just decent to epic.

Yeah, I think it needed that point showing that Gordon wants to do something but is impotent to affect real change in the end. Zsasz was well done, and showed how screwed up the GCPD is. Yeah, there are a few good people in it but in the end they are to scared or indifferent to do anything. Bullcok showed that push come to shove eh would rather be a good guy than a bad guy. With last weeks episode it seems like they are trying to make out that Bullock is who Gordon would become if it weren't for Batman. He started out idealistic but was beaten down by the City. The Penguin is doing a good job of manipulating things in his favor, but then he always has, hasn't he?

Anyone else think that this week's episode was a bit of filler?

Also, with the happenings of the Wayne "family" I get the distinct feeling that they are wanting to move the plot along quite a bit quicker than they originally wanted, in hopes of not getting the Firefly or Enlisted, or Almost Human treatment.

Next week one of Gordon's love interests pops up and with Barbara walking out it opens up some possibilities. I'm betting when Barbara shows up again it will be because she is pregnant. I agree that this episode was mostly moving pieces into place for later episodes. We know the Falcone and Maroni families are around in Bats time, but Fish ain't, so something will happen at some point to her and her empire.

 Ahtman wrote:
Next week one of Gordon's love interests pops up and with Barbara walking out it opens up some possibilities. I'm betting when Barbara shows up again it will be because she is pregnant. I agree that this episode was mostly moving pieces into place for later episodes. We know the Falcone and Maroni families are around in Bats time, but Fish ain't, so something will happen at some point to her and her empire.

Not sure whether to spoiler this or not, but I wonder if Gordon's speculation regarding the Wayne's death isn't actually something more sinister?

I think the waynes death was due too wayne industries wanting him out of the way.

We're still several episodes behind the states. However, I'm still holding out on hope that the Wayne deaths were just a sad, random event of violence that could happen to so many people.

I've always felt that sort of thing is incredibly important for the, I dunno, is mythos the right word? Mystique? Of the Batman comics.

 Compel wrote:
We're still several episodes behind the states. However, I'm still holding out on hope that the Wayne deaths were just a sad, random event of violence that could happen to so many people.

I've always felt that sort of thing is incredibly important for the, I dunno, is mythos the right word? Mystique? Of the Batman comics.

I'm inclined to somewhat agree with you, especially in light of Gordon's comments in "The Mask" (the most recent Stateside episode), but I do wonder about whether it'll play more significance into the story

I thought they already, essentially, stated that Martha and Thomas Wayne were impeding the Arkham project and that forces within their company and without (mafia/government) conspired to remove them from the equation.

 Ahtman wrote:
I thought they already, essentially, stated that Martha and Thomas Wayne were impeding the Arkham project and that forces within their company and without (mafia/government) conspired to remove them from the equation.

I thought it was more they had a "good" plan that actually benefited a great number of poorer Gothamites, but that plan didn't exactly profit for the mobsters... Maybe I heard stuff wrong

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I thought they already, essentially, stated that Martha and Thomas Wayne were impeding the Arkham project and that forces within their company and without (mafia/government) conspired to remove them from the equation.

I thought it was more they had a "good" plan that actually benefited a great number of poorer Gothamites, but that plan didn't exactly profit for the mobsters... Maybe I heard stuff wrong

Their 'good' plan would have impeded the powers that were more interested in $$$.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I thought they already, essentially, stated that Martha and Thomas Wayne were impeding the Arkham project and that forces within their company and without (mafia/government) conspired to remove them from the equation.

I thought it was more they had a "good" plan that actually benefited a great number of poorer Gothamites, but that plan didn't exactly profit for the mobsters... Maybe I heard stuff wrong

Their 'good' plan would have impeded the powers that were more interested in $$$.

You guys should have paid more attention to the viper episode. There was a lot of things going on the waynes were holding back.

The Viper episode just aired in the UK on Monday.

My understanding is that there are a lot of things Wayne Enterprises were holding back.

So, after digesting this weeks' episode, I am STILL only thinking about next week's "fall finale" (are they really doing a Dr. Who Series/Season 7 thing and splitting it into two parts?).

And that's because of what they show of Alfred in the episode preview!

 Compel wrote:
My understanding is that there are a lot of things Wayne Enterprises were holding back.

Same. The company was doing some shady gak, but Martha and Thomas were not. Everything seems to say they were doing what they could to keep the city in check, and it probably what cost them their lives.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Compel wrote:
My understanding is that there are a lot of things Wayne Enterprises were holding back.

Same. The company was doing some shady gak, but Martha and Thomas were not. Everything seems to say they were doing what they could to keep the city in check, and it probably what cost them their lives.

This would be the traditional story, but I think it's also possible the Waynes were complicit, but decided they were going to stop and started to turn on the 'conspiracy' in Gotham and that their reversal got them killed.

What is it with all these shows needing someone's wife/girlfriend to actually be a lesbian? Now it's on Gotham, too.

 Breotan wrote:
What is it with all these shows needing someone's wife/girlfriend to actually be a lesbian? Now it's on Gotham, too.

Because it's Edgy and everyone* likes girl on girl.

*As in the only everyone that matters. Am I right bros? (Sarcasm)

Personally, I find it more annoying that every show has to have a myth arc. Granted, so far I like Gotham's, but Supernatural I think went horribly down hill because its myth arc is just terrible. Then Revolution, which could have been a cool show, forwent it's own coolness to have a myth arc that makes the story utterly stupid. Not every show needs a damn myth arc.

What's funny is though, there's a certain character that just showed up this last episode who is prone to superstitious actions, as well as outbursts that run contrary to their "normal" behavior... and my wife says, "well, they didn't do that right, because they didn't get that way until AFTER they become a supervillain"

To which I replied, "I think they did it just fine, afterall much of THAT character's issues would already have been there, just after their transformation, it became REALLY apparent"

I also noticed that. His, explosive outburst, yes? This was something the Dark Knight did very well I think. Presenting Harvey Dent as a man who was already twisted on the inside, and who simply needed a push to throw him off the edge. We don't see that presentation of him in many adaptations.

How cool would it be if during the course of the series, he got his 2 headed coin? Maybe a 'war trophy' from a high profile case?

 LordofHats wrote:
I also noticed that. His, explosive outburst, yes? This was something the Dark Knight did very well I think. Presenting Harvey Dent as a man who was already twisted on the inside, and who simply needed a push to throw him off the edge. We don't see that presentation of him in many adaptations.

How cool would it be if during the course of the series, he got his 2 headed coin? Maybe a 'war trophy' from a high profile case?

Ahhh I missed it XD

I thought they moved to quickly, and a bit clumsily, on ol' Harvey tbh. It was fine introducing him as a new low level assistant DA, but having him in half-light/half dark was a bit to on the nose and he shouldn't have had an outburst just yet. They should have built him up more as being a good guy before throwing hints that something was hiding under the surface.

Penguin is still going strong of course.

I thought Harvey was the same age as Bruce and that they were friends?

Surely it's his accident that pushes him over the edge. He has the mental health problems/split personality going on but manages to keep it suppressed.

I always thought TAS gives a great blueprint for the feel of the characters.

I'm enjoying Gotham but I do agree that it's a little heavy handed on the references. Totally agree that there's too much "nudge, nudge, wink, wink".

If Viper is the pre-requisite to Venom which has already been produced then what is Bane getting experimented on with while in prison?

I do enjoy Penquin though. I assume he'll get Fish's empire. There's a one liner in there somewhere.

 Medium of Death wrote:
I thought Harvey was the same age as Bruce and that they were friends?

I always thought he was slightly older, but that is one of those things that is malleable.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
I thought Harvey was the same age as Bruce and that they were friends?

I always thought he was slightly older, but that is one of those things that is malleable.

Yeah, maybe it's the artistic style that I've personally seen in print (which isnt much, TBH, it's well documented in OT that I'm a Marvel guy ), but I kind of always thought that the majority of B-Man's villains were more of an age with him, and that there weren't too many that were significantly older or significantly younger than him.

The age thing is a side-effect of making a pre-Batman show that includes Batman characters. The "adult" themes of Gotham would seem silly portrayed by teenagers, right? Either that, or outright jailbaity. In either instance, you lose the seriousness of putting the story in the adult world. Further, mob bosses don't start being bosses in their early twenties. Older bosses, like Falcone, are more dangerous. They've survived the trials of organized crime, have made connections, and are now all but untouchable.

Directly opposed to Penguin, who is starting out, so to speak. Taking the risks, reaping the rewards, establishing his power base... so that he's established by the time Bats puts on cape and cowl.

So all of the villains need to be adults, aside from Bruce's later love interest, Cat Woman. It's just a requirement to make the correct tone for the show.


PS: Also enjoying the show, worried about the pacing, and afraid that it will be cancelled after first season. It feels like they either can't keep it slow enough to be "realistic" or they have to be so fast and heavy handed about things that it will burn out quickly. I mean, the opening arc shows how Penguin takes over Gotham... so where do you go from there in season 2? Penguin creates a stranglehold on the city, more bad guys start showing up, you get a kind of X-Files brand of every show is something new because the villain changes... and then the show dies middle of season 3?

 greatbigtree wrote:
PS: Also enjoying the show, worried about the pacing, and afraid that it will be cancelled after first season.

The first season has been a rousing success (afaik) and a second season has already been confirmed.

Poison Ivy was shown as slightly younger than Bruce, or at least the same age. With them saying they moved the Viper 2.0 aka venom trials to South America we can imagine Bane is already in prison though roughly the same age as Bruce at this point. Penguin and Riddler are typically seen as a older than Batman so that works. Harvey seems to move around as either the same age roughly or a bit older. Have they said how old Bruce is in the show specifically?

I'm still enjoying the show but a lot of the characters just kinda annoy me. I hate Fish the most, I think it's more the actress than anything else though. I hope she gets killed off soon.

I like the penguin, and Alfred has been good, but I always liked that guy in stuff, even mutant chronicles. Gordon is ok, but that's about it for me. I want to like Bruce, but I just don't. He just doesn't seem like a kid that will eventually turn into Christian Bale, or Michael Keaton, or even Adam West. He feels more like a robin than a batman to me.

 greatbigtree wrote:
The age thing is a side-effect of making a pre-Batman show that includes Batman characters. The "adult" themes of Gotham would seem silly portrayed by teenagers, right? Either that, or outright jailbaity. In either instance, you lose the seriousness of putting the story in the adult world. Further, mob bosses don't start being bosses in their early twenties. Older bosses, like Falcone, are more dangerous. They've survived the trials of organized crime, have made connections, and are now all but untouchable.

Directly opposed to Penguin, who is starting out, so to speak. Taking the risks, reaping the rewards, establishing his power base... so that he's established by the time Bats puts on cape and cowl.

So all of the villains need to be adults, aside from Bruce's later love interest, Cat Woman. It's just a requirement to make the correct tone for the show.


PS: Also enjoying the show, worried about the pacing, and afraid that it will be cancelled after first season. It feels like they either can't keep it slow enough to be "realistic" or they have to be so fast and heavy handed about things that it will burn out quickly. I mean, the opening arc shows how Penguin takes over Gotham... so where do you go from there in season 2? Penguin creates a stranglehold on the city, more bad guys start showing up, you get a kind of X-Files brand of every show is something new because the villain changes... and then the show dies middle of season 3?

Ehh, I didn't mean to suggest I had issue with ALL the villains, as obviously the Faclone/Marone thing makes too much sense to have mid-50s or so mob bosses (perhaps Marone is more like mid, late-30s instead? he seems a bit younger than Falcone)

I think that the pacing is fairly good. I mean season 1 has been about establishing and introducing characters, with a little side of showing how Penguin is going to go about consolidating his power. I would think season 2 will be more about him actually doing it.


I remember earlier in thread, we discussed the possibility of the worst supervillain of them all.... anyone spotted any new "candidates" ??

One thing that I think will 'do the show in' is there being too many episodes. The show might have been better off just having 13 episodes or so a season, a bit like The sopranos.

It'd allow tighter story arcs without either having a an infinite filler problem or giving away too much too soon.

 Compel wrote:
One thing that I think will 'do the show in' is there being too many episodes. The show might have been better off just having 13 episodes or so a season, a bit like The sopranos.

It'd allow tighter story arcs without either having a an infinite filler problem or giving away too much too soon.

I don't really get this feeling at all. I mean really, this whole season's "Super arc" has been Gordon's search for the Wayne's killer/justice, with the sub-plots of Penguin establishing himself in Gotham/ Fish being pissed at Penguin/Falcone.

Beyond that it's kind of been a Dr. Who-esque "monster of the week" style show where we can see some precursors to Gotham's main villains.


I mean, we still have Edward Nigma "on the rails" as it were.... and when he goes off them, it's going to be epic!