MOORE, Okla. – Officials with the Moore Police Department say the FBI is now involved in the investigation related to a brutal attack of workers at a food distribution plant.
Sgt. Jeremy Lewis says the alleged suspect, 30-year-old Alton Nolen had just been fired when he drove to the front of the business, hit a vehicle and walked inside.
He walked into the front office area where he met 54-year-old Colleen Hufford and began attacking her with a knife.
Sgt. Lewis confirms the type of knife used in the attack is the same kind used at the plant.
Lewis confirms that Hufford was stabbed several times and that Nolen “severed her head.”
At that point, Lewis claims Nolen met 43-year-old Traci Johnson and began attacking her with the same knife.
Officials say at that point, Mark Vaughan, an Oklahoma County reserve deputy and a former CEO of the business, shot him as he was actively stabbing Johnson.
“He’s a hero in this situation,” Sgt. Lewis said, referring to Vaughan. “It could have gotten a lot worse.”
Authorities say it appears Nolen was attacking employees at random.
Johnson is in stable condition at a local hospital, recovering from her injuries.
The FBI is now looking into Nolen’s background after his former co-workers said he tried to convert them to Islam after recently converting himself.
Lewis says the FBI is working in conjunction with the Moore Police Department, especially when it comes to the religious aspect of the case.
At this time, it is not known if the suspect’s beliefs played a role in the attack.
Vaughan Foods released the following statement about the attack:
“On behalf of everyone at Vaughan Foods, we are shocked and deeply saddened by the events of today. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families and friends of the team member we lost and all those affected. Our focus is on the safety and well-being of our employees. We will provide counseling and support for our team members and support each other through this difficult time. We are working with authorities on this active investigation and ask that you direct your questions to local law enforcement.”
The Moore Police Department released the 911 tapes associated with the attack.
911 Caller: “Shut the door, shut the door!”
Dispatcher: “Moore 911, where is your emergency?”
911 Caller: “Vaughan Foods, Moore, Oklahoma, 216 N.E. 12th St. We have..”
Dispatcher: “What’s going on there?”
911 Caller: “We have someone attacking someone in the building. I was just informed. I’m in the..”
Dispatcher: “Okay, where are they at?”
911 Caller: “Inside, are they in the office? They’re in the office, front office of the building. Yeah, we can hear a lot of screaming. We’re actually in a different office but someone just came in here yelling.”
Dispatcher: “315. Okay, do you know where they’re at in the building?”
911 Caller: “In the front of the building, there’s our main entrance.”
Dispatcher: “Okay, do you know where he is at in the plant?”
911 Caller: “We know that he’s loose. He has stabbed someone.”
Dispatcher: “Yeah, we’ve got medical en route for them.
911 Caller: “Okay.”
Dispatcher: “Is anybody with him or do you know?”
911 Caller: “Hold on, my (garbled.)
Dispatcher: “Respond on lacerations. Vaughan Foods, 216, go ahead sir, N.E. 12th.”
911 Caller: “I’m going to put you on speakerphone for one second, okay?”
Dispatcher: “Standby on a map. Page 1608, time out.”
911 Caller: “Okay, so we don’t know where the person went and he went through our front office, went through the shipping office and stabbed a woman in our customer service department.”
Dispatcher: “Okay, did he know her? Do you know, is that who he was arguing with? Is she an employee?”
911 Caller: “She is an employee, yeah.”
Dispatcher: “Okay, thank you.”
911 Caller: “Lock that door.”
Dispatcher: “Yeah, go ahead lock everybody in there if you can.”
911 Caller: “Yeah, we’re trying. Okay, can you hear this in the background?”
(yelling)
Dispatcher: “Is that him? He’s back?”
911 Caller: “Yeah, it sounds like he’s running around out here.”
(loud bangs)
911 Caller: “And that, that’s a gun shot.”
Dispatcher: “Got a gun shot. Units responding to Vaughan Foods, be advised we do now have gunshots. Okay, do you know where he’s at now?”
911 Caller: “He’s in the hallway, outside of the center of the building.”
Dispatcher: “Maybe in the hallway in the center of the building. And how many more shots have you heard?”
911 Caller: “We’ve heard three.”
Dispatcher: “Three shots?”
911 Caller: “Now I’m hearing somebody yelling in the hallway, stay down.”
Dispatcher: “There’s another subject yelling in the hallway. Units be advised that there’s another subject yelling in the hallway. Still same amount of injuries.”
911 Caller: “Stay down, stay down.”
ORIGINAL STORY: We’re learning more details about a brutal crime that left one woman dead and sent two other people to an Oklahoma hospital.
Around 4:05 p.m. on Thursday afternoon, authorities were called to N.E. 12th St. after receiving reports of a shooting or stabbing near a business.
Sgt. Jeremy Lewis, with the Moore Police Department, said it was not an active shooter situation but could confirm that an officer was involved in a shooting at the Vaughan Foods distribution warehouse.
Lewis says 30-year-old Alton Nolen attacked one woman inside the business, who later died from her injuries.
NewsChannel 4 has learned Nolen allegedly beheaded her following a workplace dispute.
The deceased victim has been identified as 54-year-old Colleen Hufford.
Police say he also tried to kill another woman, officials say.
Sgt. Lewis says Nolen was attacking another woman when an off-duty sheriff’s deputy, who was also the former CEO of the business, shot him multiple times with a rifle.
Nolen and the second victim were taken to OU Medical Center in critical condition.
Authorities say Nolen has no relation to the victims.
There were as many as 300 workers inside of the warehouse at the time of the incident.
My expectations form the predictable people in my lovely home state:
1) The Islamic Organizations in this State are going to condemn his actions, like they have to do every single time anybody that is Muslim does anything bad anywhere on the planet.
2) The State Chair of the GOP is going to explain that this is nothing unusual and exactly what we should expect from Muslims because their only goal in life is to kill every non-Muslim.
3) The Islamophobes in this stupid state are going to eat it up and run along with it.
4) The entire state is going to go ape-gak crazy because of this while either forgetting or willfully ignoring that one time when a certain white guy did this:
Guys, we are all getting ahead of ourselves. We need to just breath and keep a cool head. This guy does not represent most good muslims.
We all have a good head on out shoulders, lets keep it that way
And "extremist views held by a minority of adherents of a religion hardly qualifies as "Islam".
But hey, it's easy to distance yourself from your own extremists while painting others with a broad brush.
Well, when you consider that the Koran does advocate violence as an acceptable means of spreading that faith and also that the Bible definitely does not advocate violence to spread the faith...
The only difference between Islamic extremists and the less extreme members is how hard they stress that bit.
Because who gives a feth that the vast majority of fething Muslims who actually practice the fething religion and read the fething book and know the fething rules that they are supposed to fething follow always condemn the fething idiots who do this gak and make it fething clear that fething killing people is not a part of their fething religion and that "you got me fired bitch, Jihad on you I'm cutting off your head" is not a fething rule in their religion.
I'm glad that you and others know so much more about another religion than the people who actually follow it.
Meanwhile I'm going to stop by the Bombing Memorial tomorrow and wonder how people can already forget the biggest terrorist attack on American soil prior to 9/11 and that it was a white Christian right-wing military veteran extremist who committed that act and how whites, Christians, right-wingers, and military veterans are not painted with the same brush as the idiot who set off the bomb. Maybe someday this state can remember that extremists don't represent every member of the group that they are affiliated with.
But feth it, this thread is only going to get me red-texted.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Guys, we are all getting ahead of ourselves. We need to just breath and keep a cool head. This guy does not represent most good muslims.
We all have a good head on out shoulders, lets keep it that way
Other articles note he recently was trying to convert others to Islam. Awesome.
For what it's worth this fine outstanding Muslim already served prison time for :
-Possession Of Controlled Dangerous Substance With Intent To Distribute Cocaine
-Poss Of Controlled Substance
-Escape From Detention
-Two separate instances of Assault And Battery On A Police Officer two years apart.
But hey, I'm sure he was a fine outstanding citizen prior to his recent conversion and it was that nasty Islam that made him go all violent.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Guys, we are all getting ahead of ourselves. We need to just breath and keep a cool head. This guy does not represent most good muslims.
We all have a good head on out shoulders, lets keep it that way
Other articles note he recently was trying to convert others to Islam. Awesome.
We still don't know that's relevant.
Apparently, Nolan survived the shooting, so they'll be able to it straight from the horse's mouth.
Still looks like it's a "Going Postal™" ordeal... rather than some Lone Wolf scenario.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Guys, we are all getting ahead of ourselves. We need to just breath and keep a cool head. This guy does not represent most good muslims.
We all have a good head on out shoulders, lets keep it that way
d-usa wrote: My expectations form the predictable people in my lovely home state:
1) The Islamic Organizations in this State are going to condemn his actions, like they have to do every single time anybody that is Muslim does anything bad anywhere on the planet.
2) The State Chair of the GOP is going to explain that this is nothing unusual and exactly what we should expect from Muslims because their only goal in life is to kill every non-Muslim.
3) The Islamophobes in this stupid state are going to eat it up and run along with it.
4) The entire state is going to go ape-gak crazy because of this while either forgetting or willfully ignoring that one time when a certain white guy did this:
Just want to point out Oklahoma City Bombing done by Timothy McViegh was not done for a religious cause.
And "extremist views held by a minority of adherents of a religion hardly qualifies as "Islam".
But hey, it's easy to distance yourself from your own extremists while painting others with a broad brush.
Man, that Woman and the people in that hall are all terrible. Clapping and cheering at that? Enjoy your hate parade. Morons.
Where's the talk of the bombings, the destabilisation of nations and the propping up of dictators that the US government propogates? It's so easy to say that it's their problem for being angry, despite the fact that Western Governments are largely responsible for a lot of that anger.
And "extremist views held by a minority of adherents of a religion hardly qualifies as "Islam".
But hey, it's easy to distance yourself from your own extremists while painting others with a broad brush.
Man, that Woman and the people in that hall are all terrible. Clapping and cheering at that? Enjoy your hate parade. Morons.
Where's the talk of the bombings, the destabilisation of nations and the propping up of dictators that the US government propogates? It's so easy to say that it's their problem for being angry, despite the fact that Western Governments are largely responsible for a lot of that anger.
It's getting offtopic here, but Western Government is not the cause for the extremism in the Mid-east.
d-usa wrote: My expectations form the predictable people in my lovely home state:
1) The Islamic Organizations in this State are going to condemn his actions, like they have to do every single time anybody that is Muslim does anything bad anywhere on the planet.
2) The State Chair of the GOP is going to explain that this is nothing unusual and exactly what we should expect from Muslims because their only goal in life is to kill every non-Muslim.
3) The Islamophobes in this stupid state are going to eat it up and run along with it.
4) The entire state is going to go ape-gak crazy because of this while either forgetting or willfully ignoring that one time when a certain white guy did this:
Just want to point out Oklahoma City Bombing done by Timothy McViegh was not done for a religious cause.
And as far as we currently know this murder was because he got fired, and was not done for a religious cause.
But people see the words "muslim" and obviously the only conclusion is homegrown terrorism. Ignoring the fact that he just got fired and had previously been arrested multiple times, nope! It must be because he's a muslim.
And as far as we currently know this murder was because he got fired, and was not done for a religious cause.
But people see the words "muslim" and obviously the only conclusion is homegrown terrorism. Ignoring the fact that he just got fired and had previously been arrested multiple times, nope! It must be because he's a muslim.
I think it's because of the beheading...
It was obviously important to Alton Nolen, or else why spend the time, energy and muscle-power to do it?
So the obvious question is: Why was this important to him to do that?
And you know who else behead peoples? Look on the news...
Could simply be some sort of fantasy copy-cat fetish too...
Here's a thought experiment:
Take the exact same article as in the OP, but replace the words "muslim" with "evangelical christian", so rather than having recently converted to Islam, he had recently converted to Christianity, and rather than trying to convert his colleagues to Islam, he had tried to convert them to Christianity.
How do you think the reactions to the news would differ to currently?
Do you think people might be focusing on his criminal record? Calling him criminal scum, maybe? Completely ignoring any possible religious connotation? Can you say, entirely honestly, that people would be blaming it on his religion?
It's the usual, "HE'S A TERRORIST, ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS!" routine. Being Muslim does not mean terrorist. We have religious extremists everywhere (Catholic vs Protestant), but they are just that, extremeist. The fact that he had converted to islam should not have been put in there, and any decent new orgniation would not have done it.
And to the "Quran is violent." crowd, so is the bible.
It was obviously important to Alton Nolen, or else why spend the time, energy and muscle-power to do it?
So the obvious question is: Why was this important to him to do that?
And you know who else behead peoples? Look on the news...
Could simply be some sort of fantasy copy-cat fetish too...
Except it used to be called "decapitation" (see my above post with a few instances where someone was murdered and decapitated) when someone did it, but now we call it a "beheading" to make it sound extra brutal and medieval, which is how we characterize our enemies.
The story says he repeatedly stabbed her and then "severed her head" but it doesn't say where he initially attacked her nor how large a knife he used. If you stab someone enough times in the neck, you can cause complete or near decapitation, which is similar to what happened to Nicole Brown Simpson.
It was obviously important to Alton Nolen, or else why spend the time, energy and muscle-power to do it?
So the obvious question is: Why was this important to him to do that?
And you know who else behead peoples? Look on the news...
Could simply be some sort of fantasy copy-cat fetish too...
Except it used to be called "decapitation" (see my above post with a few instances where someone was murdered and decapitated) when someone did it, but now we call it a "beheading" to make it sound extra brutal and medieval, which is how we characterize our enemies.
The story says he repeatedly stabbed her and then "severed her head" but it doesn't say where he initially attacked her nor how large a knife he used. If you stab someone enough times in the neck, you can cause complete or near decapitation, which is similar to what happened to Nicole Brown Simpson.
I dunno... decapitation sounds more ominous that beheading.
*shrug*
Hey, I claim ignorance over how easy it is to do that.
Why can't we just blame Nolen for his actions and leave it there?
Co'tor Shas wrote: It's the usual, "HE'S A TERRORIST, ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS!" routine. Being Muslim does not mean terrorist. We have religious extremists everywhere (Catholic vs Protestant), but they are just that, extremeist. The fact that he had converted to islam should not have been put in there, and any decent new orgniation would not have done it.
And to the "Quran is violent." crowd, so is the bible.
Many many groups can claim "extremists". It is not exclusive to religion.
That guy running around in PA forest is a extremist. The one that sniped two state troopers.
Re-enactor of a Serbian WWII fighter (uniform and all; something to that effect), smokes Serbian cigerettes, wears man diaper so he can stay still for long periods of time, baiting the LEO (I've a feeling this guy knows how to make IED's), hates authority..well you get it
Let's all just conveniently ignore the parts of the Quran that mention tolerance and stuff, and focus on the the bits that mention killing without the proper historical context.
Also, let's ignore the parts of the Bible where people are killed for worshiping the wrong God.
My God, how much danger must I have been in during my three months in Amman, surrounded by bloodthirsty, evil Muslims who wanted nothing more than to kill me.
herp a derp, Muslims are eevul.
Yeah, this guy is an evil psycho. Yes, ISIS is a bunch of evil psychos. Clearly, the extreme minority speak for the clear majority (100,000 people clearly represent 2,000,000,000 Muslims!)
So why don't you Christians stop lynching black people and bombing federal buildings?
I'd like to congratulate a couple people in this thread for finally making my ignore list. That's a real feat because I can put up with a lot of idiotic garbage.
How about we all drop anything regarding religion in this thread and turn it back to knife thread that someone was fortunate enough to bring a gun into the workplace
d-usa wrote: Meanwhile I'm going to stop by the Bombing Memorial tomorrow and wonder how people can already forget the biggest terrorist attack on American soil prior to 9/11 and that it was a white Christian right-wing military veteran extremist who committed that act and how whites, Christians, right-wingers, and military veterans are not painted with the same brush as the idiot who set off the bomb. Maybe someday this state can remember that extremists don't represent every member of the group that they are affiliated with.
Motivated by his hatred of the federal government and angered by its handling of the 1993 Waco siege and the Ruby Ridge incident in 1992, McVeigh timed his attack to coincide with the second anniversary of the deadly fire that ended the siege at Waco.[11][12]. . . The chief conspirators, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, met in 1988 at Fort Benning during basic training for the U.S. Army.[17] Michael Fortier, McVeigh's accomplice, was his Army roommate.[18] The three shared interests in survivalism.[19][20] They expressed anger at the federal government's handling of the 1992 Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) standoff with Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge as well as the Waco siege—a 1993 51-day standoff between the FBI and Branch Davidian members which began with a botched ATF attempt to execute a search warrant leading to a fire fight (it is unknown whether ATF agents or Branch Davidians fired the first shot) and ended with the burning and shooting deaths of David Koresh and 75 others.[21] In March 1993, McVeigh visited the Waco site during the standoff, and then again after its conclusion.[22] McVeigh later decided to bomb a federal building as a response to the raids.[12][23][24][25]
To add to that McVeigh was agnostic (so not a Christian), and was a registered Republican in the 1980's in New York so his political beliefs and affiliations may have changed somewhat. Taking those factors into consideration it appears that you are reaching somewhat with your "white Christian right-wing military veteran extremist". He said specifically that his terrorist act was in relation to the actions of the Federal government. You are projecting motives on him when motives have already been established and do not match your narrative.
daedalus wrote: Is it still a godwin if it's done in a video and not actually done by anyone posting in thread? My bingo card may depend upon the answer.
only if the video is directly responding to a post in this thread. If not then no.
Avatar 720 wrote: EDIT: Never mind. Decided my blood pressure can't take being involved in this thread.
I seen your original post saying that the projecting of motives applied to more than d-usa, so I would like to reply to it by saying that perhaps you would like to take that issue up with the individuals in question.
Timothy McVeigh became agnostic while in prison, well after he committed his act of terrorism.
He was raised Catholic, attended Mass, and was confirmed. He said in a 1996 interview that he "lost touch with the Church" but he still maintained "his core beliefs."
Avatar 720 wrote: EDIT: Never mind. Decided my blood pressure can't take being involved in this thread.
I seen your original post saying that the projecting of motives applied to more than d-usa, so I would like to reply to it by saying that perhaps you would like to take that issue up with the individuals in question.
I've seen that you saw my edit about me not wanting to take part in the thread, so I would like to reply to this comment by saying I don't give a crap anymore, and I'm sorry if my previous edit left that intention in any way ambiguous.
If you want to discuss this any further then PM me, although I can't say that I'll reply, or even read it, due to my aforementioned state of not giving a crap.
Man, that Woman and the people in that hall are all terrible. Clapping and cheering at that? Enjoy your hate parade. Morons.
Where's the talk of the bombings, the destabilisation of nations and the propping up of dictators that the US government propogates? It's so easy to say that it's their problem for being angry, despite the fact that Western Governments are largely responsible for a lot of that anger.
It's getting offtopic here, but Western Government is not the cause for the extremism in the Mid-east.
It's certainly an exacerbating factor. It's definitely caused people to turn to that violent path.
To claim that Timothy McVeigh had no religious beliefs is, at best, ignorant and at worst historical revisionism in the furtherance of fueling a partisan narrative.
You want to claim that he later was agnostic, sure. You want to claim that he had no religious motivation for the bombings, that's true. But when people start saying that, because a guy snapped at work and was a Muslim, hence he beheaded someone in the name of Allah, it seems fair to point that we don't know why he did it, and just because someone is a religious fundamentalist doesn't mean that's why they did what they did, and maybe a cult like Christian Identity has as much to do with Christianity as the Wahhabism that Osama Bin Laden practiced has to do with Islam.
But screw it, this is the OT, who needs nuance, right?
Ouze wrote: To claim that Timothy McVeigh had no religious beliefs is, at best, ignorant and at worst historical revisionism in the furtherance of fueling a partisan narrative.
You want to claim that he later was agnostic, sure. You want to claim that he had no religious motivation for the bombings, that's true. But when people start saying that, because a guy snapped at work and was a Muslim, hence he beheaded someone in the name of Allah, it seems fair to point that we don't know why he did it, and just because someone is a religious fundamentalist doesn't mean that's why they did what they did, and maybe a cult like Christian Identity has as much to do with Christianity as the Wahhabism that Osama Bin Laden practiced has to do with Islam.
But screw it, this is the OT, who needs nuance, right?
Whoa now. The print version of the 911 call in no way shape or form mentioning anything of the individual praising "God" in any shape, way, or form. Since I started this line of thought I wanted to point out a wrong perception of the OKC Bombing by McViegh was not done for a religious cause. I also am going to toss in since the word "terrorism" and "extremist" now is being used in a loose but general reference towards Islam followers as a catch all. Using the word Allah Ouze your feeding into this (love you bro) type of "labeling" further perpetuating those who has an axe to grind against Islam followers.
For hence forth I am no longer using the word;
Mike
Uniform
Sierra
Lima
India
Mike
because of the connotation it is now having towards "Islamic Extremists"
Ouze wrote: To claim that Timothy McVeigh had no religious beliefs is, at best, ignorant and at worst historical revisionism in the furtherance of fueling a partisan narrative.
..... next you are going to tell me the American Civil War had nothing to do with Slavery!
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Timothy McVeigh became agnostic while in prison, well after he committed his act of terrorism.
He was raised Catholic, attended Mass, and was confirmed. He said in a 1996 interview that he "lost touch with the Church" but he still maintained "his core beliefs."
McVeigh was a registered Republican when he lived in Buffalo, New York, in the 1980s, and had a membership in the National Rifle Association while in the military,[83] but may have voted for Libertarian Party candidate, Harry Browne, in the 1996 presidential elections.[84] McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[85] During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly.[86] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[87] In a 1996 interview, McVeigh professed belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."[85] In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.[88][89] In June 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News identifying himself as agnostic.[90] Before his execution, McVeigh took the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.[91]
Avatar 720 wrote: I don't give a crap anymore, and I'm sorry if my previous edit left that intention in any way ambiguous. If you want to discuss this any further then PM me, although I can't say that I'll reply, or even read it, due to my aforementioned state of not giving a crap.
So you "don't give a crap" but still felt the need to respond? A strange position to take.
Ouze wrote: To claim that Timothy McVeigh had no religious beliefs is, at best, ignorant and at worst historical revisionism in the furtherance of fueling a partisan narrative.
You want to claim that he later was agnostic, sure. You want to claim that he had no religious motivation for the bombings, that's true. But when people start saying that, because a guy snapped at work and was a Muslim, hence he beheaded someone in the name of Allah, it seems fair to point that we don't know why he did it, and just because someone is a religious fundamentalist doesn't mean that's why they did what they did, and maybe a cult like Christian Identity has as much to do with Christianity as the Wahhabism that Osama Bin Laden practiced has to do with Islam.
But screw it, this is the OT, who needs nuance, right?
Going off the information that I posted above there was no mention of when he turned agnostic, or that he was particularly religious (especially in light of the whole "Thou shalt not kill" thing). Also attempting to correct what looks like errors in member's post does not make me spokesperson for those claiming that this attack was inspired by Islam. I advanced no such argument. Take it up with the people who did.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: So you "don't give a crap" but still felt the need to respond? A strange position to take.
Avatar 720 wrote: If you want to discuss this any further then PM me
You left out the last half of your quote for context;
Avatar 720 wrote: If you want to discuss this any further then PM me although I can't say that I'll reply, or even read it, due to my aforementioned state of not giving a crap.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: So you "don't give a crap" but still felt the need to respond? A strange position to take.
Avatar 720 wrote: If you want to discuss this any further then PM me
You left out the last half of your quote for context;
Avatar 720 wrote: If you want to discuss this any further then PM me although I can't say that I'll reply, or even read it, due to my aforementioned state of not giving a crap.
Avatar 720 wrote: If you want to discuss this any further then PM me
daedalus wrote: Is it still a godwin if it's done in a video and not actually done by anyone posting in thread? My bingo card may depend upon the answer.
For what it's worth this fine outstanding Muslim already served prison time for :
-Possession Of Controlled Dangerous Substance With Intent To Distribute Cocaine
-Poss Of Controlled Substance
-Escape From Detention
-Two separate instances of Assault And Battery On A Police Officer two years apart.
But hey, I'm sure he was a fine outstanding citizen prior to his recent conversion and it was that nasty Islam that made him go all violent.
We all in agreement then that McViegh did not blow up the Fed building for religious cause then. He held a extremist view that was not religious in nature and retaliated against the US Government for the role they played in Waco. TX.
Goliath wrote: Here's a thought experiment:
Take the exact same article as in the OP, but replace the words "muslim" with "evangelical christian", so rather than having recently converted to Islam, he had recently converted to Christianity, and rather than trying to convert his colleagues to Islam, he had tried to convert them to Christianity.
How do you think the reactions to the news would differ to currently?
Do you think people might be focusing on his criminal record? Calling him criminal scum, maybe? Completely ignoring any possible religious connotation? Can you say, entirely honestly, that people would be blaming it on his religion?
On these forums? Everyday of the week, even more so than this guy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Co'tor Shas wrote: It's the usual, "HE'S A TERRORIST, ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS!" routine. Being Muslim does not mean terrorist. We have religious extremists everywhere (Catholic vs Protestant), but they are just that, extremeist. The fact that he had converted to islam should not have been put in there, and any decent new orgniation would not have done it.
And to the "Quran is violent." crowd, so is the bible.
In all fairness, you are using Old Testament, which outlines a violent time where it was the order of the day for tribes and cities to massacre each other down to the last man, no matter what god they worshipped.
As far as Muslims go, in my own anicdotal experiendes, any Muslim I've ever dealt with has been a fairly good person. We had a group in from Oman just this week learning about lean production techniques and I loved being around them. They invited me to visit them, telling me that I could stay at their places if I make it out there, either through work or on my own.
Very kind people.
I'm not saying there aren't flying rodent gak crazy or totaly repugnant Muslims. The news is full of them and I know enough people that have been overseas in the middle of all of that crap.
I, and I suspect most others here just don't paint them all with the same brush
Jihadin wrote: We all in agreement then that McViegh did not blow up the Fed building for religious cause then. He held a extremist view that was not religious in nature and retaliated against the US Government for the role they played in Waco. TX.
Seeing as McVeigh never claimed a religious motive for the attack, nor was that relied upon as a motive by the Federal prosecutor I would hope that it would be beyond doubt that religion was not a motive for the Oklahoma bombing.
d-usa wrote: My expectations form the predictable people in my lovely home state:
1) The Islamic Organizations in this State are going to condemn his actions, like they have to do every single time anybody that is Muslim does anything bad anywhere on the planet.
2) The State Chair of the GOP is going to explain that this is nothing unusual and exactly what we should expect from Muslims because their only goal in life is to kill every non-Muslim.
3) The Islamophobes in this stupid state are going to eat it up and run along with it.
4) The entire state is going to go ape-gak crazy because of this while either forgetting or willfully ignoring that one time when a certain white guy did this:
Spoiler:
Therein lies the important part...
Yes, obviously I know that white Christians have carried out more than one bombing, but Muslims have had a near monopoly on barbaric violence in the past decade and a half or so. Saying otherwise simply amounts to...
For what it's worth this fine outstanding Muslim already served prison time for :
-Possession Of Controlled Dangerous Substance With Intent To Distribute Cocaine
-Poss Of Controlled Substance
-Escape From Detention
-Two separate instances of Assault And Battery On A Police Officer two years apart.
But hey, I'm sure he was a fine outstanding citizen prior to his recent conversion and it was that nasty Islam that made him go all violent.
Plenty of criminals convert to Islam in prison. It sure does seem to attract the "Kill Whitey" crowd.
RatBot wrote: Let's all just conveniently ignore the parts of the Quran that mention tolerance and stuff, and focus on the the bits that mention killing without the proper historical context.
Also, let's ignore the parts of the Bible where people are killed for worshiping the wrong God.
My God, how much danger must I have been in during my three months in Amman, surrounded by bloodthirsty, evil Muslims who wanted nothing more than to kill me.
herp a derp, Muslims are eevul.
Yeah, this guy is an evil psycho. Yes, ISIS is a bunch of evil psychos. Clearly, the extreme minority speak for the clear majority (100,000 people clearly represent 2,000,000,000 Muslims!)
So why don't you Christians stop lynching black people and bombing federal buildings?
I'd like to congratulate a couple people in this thread for finally making my ignore list. That's a real feat because I can put up with a lot of idiotic garbage.
Proof that only 100,000 Muslims are violent extremists?
Russian sources estimated roughly 300,000 Chechens fought in the First Chechen War, and pretty much all of them were Muslims. That's ONE conflict area out of...well...pretty much the entire non-Muslim world against which Muslims are constantly fighting. I think your numbers are a bit off...
Co'tor Shas wrote: It's the usual, "HE'S A TERRORIST, ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS!" routine. Being Muslim does not mean terrorist. We have religious extremists everywhere (Catholic vs Protestant), but they are just that, extremeist. The fact that he had converted to islam should not have been put in there, and any decent new orgniation would not have done it.
And to the "Quran is violent." crowd, so is the bible.
In all fairness, you are using Old Testament, which outlines a violent time where it was the order of the day for tribes and cities to massacre each other down to the last man, no matter what god they worshipped.
As far as Muslims go, in my own anicdotal experiendes, any Muslim I've ever dealt with has been a fairly good person. We had a group in from Oman just this week learning about lean production techniques and I loved being around them. They invited me to visit them, telling me that I could stay at their places if I make it out there, either through work or on my own.
Very kind people.
I'm not saying there aren't flying rodent gak crazy or totaly repugnant Muslims. The news is full of them and I know enough people that have been overseas in the middle of all of that crap.
I, and I suspect most others here just don't paint them all with the same brush
It does seem that only the worst possible news is ever reported. On anything, religions, political parties, whatever.
RatBot wrote: Let's all just conveniently ignore the parts of the Quran that mention tolerance and stuff, and focus on the the bits that mention killing without the proper historical context.
Also, let's ignore the parts of the Bible where people are killed for worshiping the wrong God.
My God, how much danger must I have been in during my three months in Amman, surrounded by bloodthirsty, evil Muslims who wanted nothing more than to kill me.
herp a derp, Muslims are eevul.
Yeah, this guy is an evil psycho. Yes, ISIS is a bunch of evil psychos. Clearly, the extreme minority speak for the clear majority (100,000 people clearly represent 2,000,000,000 Muslims!)
So why don't you Christians stop lynching black people and bombing federal buildings?
I'd like to congratulate a couple people in this thread for finally making my ignore list. That's a real feat because I can put up with a lot of idiotic garbage.
Proof that only 100,000 Muslims are violent extremists?
Russian sources estimated roughly 300,000 Chechens fought in the First Chechen War, and pretty much all of them were Muslims. That's ONE conflict area out of...well...pretty much the entire non-Muslim world against which Muslims are constantly fighting. I think your numbers are a bit off...
Russian sources estimated roughly 300,000 Chechens fought in the First Chechen War, and pretty much all of them were Muslims. That's ONE conflict area out of...well...pretty much the entire non-Muslim world against which Muslims are constantly fighting. I think your numbers are a bit off...
Ah, yes, the Chechen War, fought totally because evil Chechen Muslims wanted to annihilate good, honest Russian Christians, and not because the Chechens, who have almost no linguistic, cultural, or religious ties to the Russians, wanted independence from Russia, a known respecter of human rights and civil freedoms. Why, they're just as bad as those no-good Kurds who won't accept Arab and Turkish hegemony. Not to justify the terrorist tactics Chechen groups employ(ed) against the Russians, but to go "Hurr durr, evul Muslims!" is fething stupid.
Still waiting for proof that there are only 100,000 Islamic extremists.
And yes, the Chechens were persecuting non-Chechens (non-Muslims) who were living there. Chechnya eventually became an Islamic republic, and foreign Mujahideen flooded into the area to wage war against the Russian infidels.
Stating that the wars in Chechnya are not religious wars is simply ridiculous. They were religious wars then, and they were still as of 2009. There are some groups worth White Knighting. The Islamic Death Cult is not one of those groups.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Timothy McVeigh became agnostic while in prison, well after he committed his act of terrorism.
He was raised Catholic, attended Mass, and was confirmed. He said in a 1996 interview that he "lost touch with the Church" but he still maintained "his core beliefs."
He bombed the federal building in 1995 and the interview with TIME magazine was in 1996 when he stated what I put in my post. He became an "agnostic" according to a book written in 2001. He also took Catholic rites before his execution, for what it's worth.
So like Ouze said and we all agreed, he was not religiously motivated, but to claim he was without Christianity at the time of the bombing is an outright lie.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Timothy McVeigh became agnostic while in prison, well after he committed his act of terrorism.
He was raised Catholic, attended Mass, and was confirmed. He said in a 1996 interview that he "lost touch with the Church" but he still maintained "his core beliefs."
He bombed the federal building in 1995 and the interview with TIME magazine was in 1996 when he stated what I put in my post. He became an "agnostic" according to a book written in 2001. He also took Catholic rites before his execution, for what it's worth.
So like Ouze said and we all agreed, he was not religiously motivated, but to claim he was without Christianity at the time of the bombing is an outright lie.
Yeah, but just because he was Christian doesn't mean that the crime was due to his religion! To claim so would be an absurd generalisation.
That evil muslim who'd just been fired and had a criminal record, well there's all the proof you need that it was based on religion.
Jihadin wrote: Think you two need to clarify which definition of "Extremist" your looking for.
I'm not looking for any definition of "Extremist".
I am looking for a word that fits the definition of "Tendency to associate any crime committed by a Muslim with Islam as a whole" though. Or maybe a word for "the act of only blaming it on religion when it's not someone of your own religion".
You can't deny that recently there have been not a few violent crimes in which the perpetrator had recently converted.
There is certainly a correlation. I personally don't think that the conversion was the cause of the crime, but rather a simple correlation that the same people who are more likely to commit a violent crime are also vulnerable to conversion. People who are angry with their current situation and want to do something about it.
Grey Templar wrote: You can't deny that recently there have been not a few violent crimes in which the perpetrator had recently converted.
There is certainly a correlation. I personally don't think that the conversion was the cause of the crime, but rather a simple correlation that the same people who are more likely to commit a violent crime are also vulnerable to conversion. People who are angry with their current situation and want to do something about it.
You got any evidence for that claim? Cause I can't really think of any where they'd recently converted to Islam.
Grey Templar wrote: You can't deny that recently there have been not a few violent crimes in which the perpetrator had recently converted.
I'm gonna have to ask you for a source, because I have to admit, I was scratching my head to name one other than this particular act of violence.
I didn't make the claim, and I can't speak to numbers, but there have been a few converts to Islam popping up in terroristy places doing terroristy things.
Jihadin wrote: Think you two need to clarify which definition of "Extremist" your looking for.
I'm not looking for any definition of "Extremist".
I am looking for a word that fits the definition of "Tendency to associate any crime committed by a Muslim with Islam as a whole" though. Or maybe a word for "the act of only blaming it on religion when it's not someone of your own religion".
Any of those words can apply to follower of Islam but it also can apply to all religion. Since I directed that question to Ratbot and Nuggz maybe you can help them to identify what I think they might be twinkle toeing around the word "militants"
Are you studied on the muslim religion? Have you served your country fighting them? Oh wait your country is being taken over by muslims, you must be a sympathizer. DING DONG...
I didn't make the claim, and I can't speak to numbers, but there have been a few converts to Islam popping up in terroristy places doing terroristy things.
Yeah, but some of those are not exactly 'recent' converts. And I've known people to turn up in terroisty places doing terroisty things without being Muslim.
Kelly502 wrote: Are you studied on the muslim religion? Have you served your country fighting them? Oh wait your country is being taken over by muslims, you must be a sympathizer. DING DONG...
1) Yes, actually. I try to learn as much as I can about things before condemning everyone to do with them.
2) a) No, for one because I'm 20, and currently studying at university, and for another because I'm rather weedy, so I'd be better at designing the weapons than firing them.
b) Cool! a classic "You aren't military, you can't comment" argument! I haven't seen one of those in ages!
3) Holy gak! My country is being invaded!? Why isn't anyone on the news talking about it?! Oh god, I need to go back down south to be with my family. I don't want to die alone up here Although up here there's a basement, and I could probably spend my student loan on enough food to hide from all the radical islamic extremi-terror-jihadists that are no doubt crawling through the streets of Sheffield at this very moment, forcing my female friends to wear burkas, and imposing sharia law on toddlers.
4) I think I get it? I mean, there are Muslims in Britain, and I'm not actively protesting against the existence of Islam, and they're obviously all here because they want to slit my throat (in a halal method, of course) because I'm atheist, so I must be a sympathiser.
Kelly502 wrote: Are you studied on the muslim religion? Have you served your country fighting them? Oh wait your country is being taken over by muslims, you must be a sympathizer. DING DONG...
First off.
Never rely on your military experience on here and state your more of the "Subject Matter Expert"
Second
You seem to be a first term enlistee who is assigned to the 101st. Stop sounding like one
Third
Never ever ASSUME and you know what I mean
Fourth
Your combat experience only relates to COMBAT
Fifth
My GAWD Azreal...how the heck did your thought process lead to that grapth
There's quite a bit of mud (and worse things that look like mud) being slung about this thread already.
One "correction" that I'd make though... The Quran says that Christians and Jews are "of the book" and do not need to be converted, due to worshiping the same god (albeit with a different name). It then later, contradicts that by saying that ALL need to convert to Islam, or else they "deserve to lose their head" This could be literal, it could be figurative. What we do know though, is that Mohammed (the "OG" prophet) fairly routinely spread his religion by the sword.
Yes, the Bible has some pretty spectacularly genocidal and violent bits in it... But if you notice, outside of Revelation, they're pretty much ALL in the Old Testament. As in the "Jewish part" of the book (as it is, I don't know the name that the Jewish community uses for the entire work, but the first few books are the Torah... or Talmud?? maybe one is the whole thing, and one just the first few books of Law). Once Jesus comes along, he tries to make things much more flower power, love everyone and get along, man... Which of course, gets perverted throughout history going forward.
We do know that this guy was recently fired, and he was pissed, and apparently he blamed one person in particular (the woman he beheaded). Now, as a theory, perhaps if he had been let go while still not following any religion, or as a Christian, or Jew, or Jehovah's Witness, or Mormon, or even Buddhist, he would have gone Postal and killed this woman... But in this case, the only real difference being that the beheading part was religiously motivated, while the actual act of the killing/going Postal in the former work place was an extreme reaction that would have happened anyhow.
I guess basically what I'm saying is that there's a possibility that this could/would have happened regardless, it's just that certain actions as a variable were affected by other variables.
His recent conversion was pretty well ruled out as the cause, but you can't deny that there was a connection.
Reported conversion; since the guy hasn't actually been named, we don't know.
Also, I wouldn't really call 'over a year ago' particularly recent.
Also Also, he attacked a cat and a flowerbed as well, and I'm fairly sure the passage that always gets thrown around at this point refers to beheading unbelievers, not roses.
Oklahoma beheader: “O ye Muslims make sure you give your children the knowledge of Islam”
Robert Spencer Sep 26, 2014 at 9:45pm converts to Islam, Jihad in the U.S., mosques 6 Comments
Jah'KeemYisrael3The Oklahoma beheader’s Muslim name is Jah’Keem Yisrael. His Facebook page (thanks to Pamela Geller) is all about Islam. It is not only full of Qur’anic and moral exhortations, but also several pictures of Yisrael at a local mosque. Watch for mosque officials to say they hardly knew him and to complain about “Islamophobia” and “backlash.”
In Jah’Keem Yisrael we once again have a convert to Islam who became quite devout and became violent. In the wake of the murder he committed today, watch for more assurances that the murder had nothing to do with the religion that exhorts believers in its holy book, “When you meet the unbelievers, strike the necks.”
In case the Facebook page gets taken down, Pamela Geller has a great deal of it here.
Also Also, he attacked a cat and a flowerbed as well, and I'm fairly sure the passage that always gets thrown around at this point refers to beheading unbelievers, not roses.
But.... everyone knows that cats are LaVeyan Satanists!!!... ohh and those roses?? totally hindu and DEFINITELY needing a "convertin"
(yes, I am being sarcastic here... except about the cats... seriously, feth cats )
Yep, basically that dude was crazy, and until there are more facts about him, I will keep that opinion.
My GAWD Azreal...how the heck did your thought process lead to that graph
I was looking for something to illustrate the absurdity of assuming that a correlation must mean a cause, had a quick Google and the web is full of stupid examples of extraordinary statistical relationships.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: There's quite a bit of mud (and worse things that look like mud) being slung about this thread already.
One "correction" that I'd make though... The Quran says that Christians and Jews are "of the book" and do not need to be converted, due to worshiping the same god (albeit with a different name). It then later, contradicts that by saying that ALL need to convert to Islam, or else they "deserve to lose their head" This could be literal, it could be figurative. What we do know though, is that Mohammed (the "OG" prophet) fairly routinely spread his religion by the sword.
Just to point out, in context, the Quran was sort of a "living document" and was "revealed" (that is to say, written; I don't believe any book is divinely inspired as that would require me to believe in the divine) over time. Many of the sections in which Muslims are enjoined to kill Christians and Jews occurs in the context of the fact that Muhammad and the Muslims had basically been told to pound bricks by the Pagans of Mecca, so he went to the Christians and Jews, figuring they'd listen to him, and they told him to pound bricks, too, and eventually, the non-Muslims in general got sick of Muhammad and his troublemaking (as they saw it), so they fought against the Muslims. So, in the context of the fact that the early Muslims were essentially in a state of war with their non-Muslim neighbors, it says "Kill them where you find them" or something to that effect.
Most mainstream Muslims, prominent scholars included, agree that most of the "kill the non-believers!" stuff was in the context of the wars Muhammad fought. The whole "conversion by swordpoint" was not an actual thing. In fact, people were often discouraged from converting to Islam during the early days of the post-Muhammad Caliphate, for two major reasons: 1.) The Middle Eastern tradition of ethnicity=religion, ie, Jews and Zoroastrians (who traditionally must be ethnically Persian). and 2.) If everyone in the Islamic Empire was Muslim, there'd be no one to tax.
Basically, context matters. If it didn't, this:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."
In Jah’Keem Yisrael we once again have a convert to Islam who became quite devout and became violent. In the wake of the murder he committed today, watch for more assurances that the murder had nothing to do with the religion that exhorts believers in its holy book, “When you meet the unbelievers, strike the necks.”
It's a good thing your profile name doesn't have 187 in it... or else I'd be addressing you by "Rakkasan" (and since you seem to be at Campbell, you KNOW what that means ) and to be fair, "Black Heart" or "Strike" doesn't have the same tone to it that Rakkasan does
This guy was violent a long time BEFORE he apparently converted to Islam. It is of course, too early to tell if any aspect, or every aspect of his actions were religiously motivated, OR... if he was a dude who had just lost his job and was getting back at "The Man"
Well there are truly absurd comparisons, and then there are those which really aren't all that absurd.
Given how much violence Islamic extremists have committed over the last couple decades, and a general tone throughout history, its not wrong to have a hypothesis that there just might be a connection between a religion known to spawn a lot of violence and people who commit violent acts who just happened to recently convert to said religion.
Grey Templar wrote: Well there are truly absurd comparisons, and then there are those which really aren't all that absurd.
Given how much violence Islamic extremists have committed over the last couple decades, and a general tone throughout history, its not wrong to have a hypothesis that there just might be a connection between a religion known to spawn a lot of violence and people who commit violent acts who just happened to recently convert to said religion.
What's actually somewhat sad is... I just hopped on google and did a search for "extremist buddhists" expecting to find some Onion, or Duffelblog type articles.... But, damn I was wrong and there are actually parts of the world where Buddhist extremists are killing (mainly) Muslims. But, because Buddhism isn't quite as mainstream as Islam or the various brands of Christianity, or Judaism; it's clearly escaping much, or most of the scrutiny that is given other religions. Part of this is of course that it's teachings are often foreign to people, and so most will only know the biggest/most "obvious" beliefs are ones of peace and tranquility (I mean hell, in a recent "Scientific" happiness study, the researchers found that Buddhists were the most "happy" while Christians were by far the least "happy"... not my test, and I put scientific in quotes for a reason )
Grey Templar wrote: True. And I never ever said that conversion was a cause. Just maybe an effect of the same cause as what made them commit the evil act.
That makes sense, actually. There are more than a few cases, I am sure, where someone with discontent either in themselves or society at large, makes a change in religion, music style, sports team they follow, etc., and finds that the change isn't giving them the results looked for and finally go off the deep end.
Right now I am too lazy to google any examples, but I'm sure some of the more learned members of these forums could come up with examples.
This thread actually has potential to turn into a fairly interesting opportunity for learning the psychology of these types of individuals.
In Jah’Keem Yisrael we once again have a convert to Islam who became quite devout and became violent. In the wake of the murder he committed today, watch for more assurances that the murder had nothing to do with the religion that exhorts believers in its holy book, “When you meet the unbelievers, strike the necks.”
It's a good thing your profile name doesn't have 187 in it... or else I'd be addressing you by "Rakkasan" (and since you seem to be at Campbell, you KNOW what that means ) and to be fair, "Black Heart" or "Strike" doesn't have the same tone to it that Rakkasan does
This guy was violent a long time BEFORE he apparently converted to Islam. It is of course, too early to tell if any aspect, or every aspect of his actions were religiously motivated, OR... if he was a dude who had just lost his job and was getting back at "The Man"
The Hatchet Battalion to be precise. I'm a Crusader or Kafir, I have absolutely no empathy for murderers.
Grey Templar wrote: Well there are truly absurd comparisons, and then there are those which really aren't all that absurd.
Given how much violence Islamic extremists have committed over the last couple decades, and a general tone throughout history, its not wrong to have a hypothesis that there just might be a connection between a religion known to spawn a lot of violence and people who commit violent acts who just happened to recently convert to said religion.
What's actually somewhat sad is... I just hopped on google and did a search for "extremist buddhists" expecting to find some Onion, or Duffelblog type articles.... But, damn I was wrong and there are actually parts of the world where Buddhist extremists are killing (mainly) Muslims. But, because Buddhism isn't quite as mainstream as Islam or the various brands of Christianity, or Judaism; it's clearly escaping much, or most of the scrutiny that is given other religions. Part of this is of course that it's teachings are often foreign to people, and so most will only know the biggest/most "obvious" beliefs are ones of peace and tranquility (I mean hell, in a recent "Scientific" happiness study, the researchers found that Buddhists were the most "happy" while Christians were by far the least "happy"... not my test, and I put scientific in quotes for a reason )
Yep, Cambodia was a great example of what you speak of.
I didn't make the claim, and I can't speak to numbers, but there have been a few converts to Islam popping up in terroristy places doing terroristy things.
Yeah, but some of those are not exactly 'recent' converts. And I've known people to turn up in terroisty places doing terroisty things without being Muslim.
My GAWD Azreal...how the heck did your thought process lead to that graph
I was looking for something to illustrate the absurdity of assuming that a correlation must mean a cause, had a quick Google and the web is full of stupid examples of extraordinary statistical relationships.
Spoiler:
This isn't really helpful. While correlation != causation has become a mantra of sorts, it ignores the very real fact that correlation often DOES indicate a true relationship, or at least the presence of a third variable that may be causal. Another limit of correlation is that it doesn't give you directionality.
However, the argument that correlation != causation isn't really an argument against statistical relationships. Studies containing correlation tests are published every day, so obviously the test has some scientific merit even if it cannot be used to demonstrate causation.
Goliath wrote: Here's a thought experiment:
Take the exact same article as in the OP, but replace the words "muslim" with "evangelical christian", so rather than having recently converted to Islam, he had recently converted to Christianity, and rather than trying to convert his colleagues to Islam, he had tried to convert them to Christianity.
How do you think the reactions to the news would differ to currently?
Do you think people might be focusing on his criminal record? Calling him criminal scum, maybe? Completely ignoring any possible religious connotation? Can you say, entirely honestly, that people would be blaming it on his religion?
the difference of course is christians don't do that for their religion. enough with the pc already.u
the difference of course is christians don't do that for their religion.
Any more.
They don't do that for their religion any more.
And that's still not universally accurate.
And they only did it when they couldn't actually read the Bible for themselves and/or they were goaded on by the only people who could. It was also when everybody killed everybody over everything. Religion was just one of an assortment of reasons.
the difference of course is christians don't do that for their religion.
Any more.
They don't do that for their religion any more.
And that's still not universally accurate.
And they only did it when they couldn't actually read the Bible for themselves and/or they were goaded on by the only people who could. It was also when everybody killed everybody over everything. Religion was just one of an assortment of reasons.
many examples. Not as prevalent as muslim terrorism, but i blame that mostly on the location of most Muslims compared to christians. Wealth and prosperity and education discourage religious extremism and religion in general (a proven correlation, religion is decreasing in every wealthy nation, bar China.
and what does it matter if genocide is resigned to the old testament? Its the same god ordering it as who sent in Jesus. What's the difference?
This sort of thread makes me disgusted at Dakkadakka. Make a criticism of a christian or the christian religion on these boards and see how long it takes for your thread to get locked, on the grounds that "Attacking religion violates Rule 1" or whatever.
Sling mud and abuse at Islam for as long as you want and nothing happens.
Double standard, and a disgusting one. But it happens with such frequency there's probably no point in me posting this.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Timothy McVeigh became agnostic while in prison, well after he committed his act of terrorism.
He was raised Catholic, attended Mass, and was confirmed. He said in a 1996 interview that he "lost touch with the Church" but he still maintained "his core beliefs."
He bombed the federal building in 1995 and the interview with TIME magazine was in 1996 when he stated what I put in my post. He became an "agnostic" according to a book written in 2001. He also took Catholic rites before his execution, for what it's worth.
So like Ouze said and we all agreed, he was not religiously motivated, but to claim he was without Christianity at the time of the bombing is an outright lie.
From the link provided;
McVeigh was a registered Republican when he lived in Buffalo, New York, in the 1980s, and had a membership in the National Rifle Association while in the military,[83] but may have voted for Libertarian Party candidate, Harry Browne, in the 1996 presidential elections.[84] McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[85] During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly.[86] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[87] In a 1996 interview, McVeigh professed belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."[85] In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.[88][89] In June 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News identifying himself as agnostic.[90] Before his execution, McVeigh took the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.[91]
Nothing in that information gives any indication of when he became agnostic. Nor did you manage to provide a link as requested. If I was incorrect based on the little information that I had available I will of course accept that the information is inaccurate. Until then comments such as "Then you fail at basic reading comprehension " are greatly unhelpful.
Yes, it does. It says right there in the block of text that you've quoted two or three times.
1985 - confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York
1996 - Professes in an interview to have 'sort of lost touch with' Catholicism, though 'I do maintain core beliefs'
2001 - Claims in his book to not believe in hell, and further claims that science is his religion
June 2001 - Writes letter claiming to be agnostic, but takes Catholic rites prior to execution.
From this, using our basic powers of deduction, we can tell that he considered himself to be at least partially Catholic as late as 1996 (post-bombing), and by 2001 we can see that he considers himself to be agnostic, though he takes Catholic rites.
Thus, we can make the assumption that he became agnostic at some point between 1996 and 2001, due to him 'maintaining the core beliefs' of Catholicism shortly after the bombing.
Goliath wrote: Yes, it does. It says right there in the block of text that you've quoted two or three times.
1985 - confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York
1996 - Professes in an interview to have 'sort of lost touch with' Catholicism, though 'I do maintain core beliefs'
2001 - Claims in his book to not believe in hell, and further claims that science is his religion
June 2001 - Writes letter claiming to be agnostic, but takes Catholic rites prior to execution.
From this, using our basic powers of deduction, we can tell that he considered himself to be at least partially Catholic as late as 1996 (post-bombing), and by 2001 we can see that he considers himself to be agnostic, though he takes Catholic rites.
Thus, we can make the assumption that he became agnostic at some point between 1996 and 2001, due to him 'maintaining the core beliefs' of Catholicism shortly after the bombing.
So between 1985 and 1996, a substantial gap of eleven years, we don't know when he lost touch with his faith. You can make assumptions, but those are assumptions with little to no evidence. We don't know if he lost his religion years before the bombing, or minutes after. That is why I have asked for a link to the interview, to clarify this matter.
Leaving that aside for the time being the Oklahoma bombing was a secular act of violence motivated by a political grievance (legitimate or otherwise). I don't believe that religion has been established as a factor in the attack in the OP, at present it appears to be an act of workplace violence.
“As we have repeatedly preached in private and in public, in Arabic and in English, the horrors conducted overseas in the name of religion are crimes against humanity and sins against God,” the Grand Mufti said.
“The recent so-called ‘fatwa’ from overseas making reference to Australia as a target has no religious authority and must be rejected.
Seems to be pretty clearly saying 'they're bad' to me.
Wait I must have it wrong in my head. From that article, he wants a "Pre-Constitutionalist Community", to "restore America Pre- Constitutionally". Wasn't pre-constitution....British rule?
One would suggest if your plan is concocted in public, on Facebook, and it largely consists of hysterical threats to shoot and/or blow stuff/people up, that MENSA is unlikely to be offering you membership anytime soon.
Wait I must have it wrong in my head. From that article, he wants a "Pre-Constitutionalist Community", to "restore America Pre- Constitutionally". Wasn't pre-constitution....British rule?
Maybe he means the Articles of Confederation?
Pft. Good luck with that brosefs. it's five steps away from anarchy
reds8n wrote: One would suggest if your plan is concocted in public, on Facebook, and it largely consists of hysterical threats to shoot and/or blow stuff/people up, that MENSA is unlikely to be offering you membership anytime soon.
Wait I must have it wrong in my head. From that article, he wants a "Pre-Constitutionalist Community", to "restore America Pre- Constitutionally". Wasn't pre-constitution....British rule?
Would we get the NHS? If so he has a compelling argument. I've long though an NHS type system is the best way to do healthcare.
“As we have repeatedly preached in private and in public, in Arabic and in English, the horrors conducted overseas in the name of religion are crimes against humanity and sins against God,” the Grand Mufti said.
“The recent so-called ‘fatwa’ from overseas making reference to Australia as a target has no religious authority and must be rejected.
Seems to be pretty clearly saying 'they're bad' to me.
w00t!
More.. MOAR!
As to what's happening in OK... um, did ya'll check the news?
Co'tor Shas wrote: And to the "Quran is violent." crowd, so is the bible.
Yes. We need to not stop here and continue on that line of thinking. If both books are bad, what should we do with them and their influences?
Goliath wrote: Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner for "Let's blame it all on Islam" Bingo!
There is a bingo for that?
RatBot wrote: Most mainstream Muslims, prominent scholars included, agree that most of the "kill the non-believers!" stuff was in the context of the wars Muhammad fought.
Of course. Only apostates and people trying to convince others out of Islam must be executed.
RatBot wrote: Zoroastrians (who traditionally must be ethnically Persian).
Maybe he was yelling the English translation?
Picture him yelling that:
The power of Abu Lahab will perish, and he will perish. His wealth and gains will not exempt him. He will be plunged in flaming Fire, And his wife, the wood-carrier, Will have upon her neck a halter of palm-fibre.
RatBot wrote: Zoroastrians (who traditionally must be ethnically Persian).
Uh, really?
Yep. There's actually a lot of debate in the Zoroastrian community whether they should allow converts because their numbers are dwindling.
And the requirement may technically not include being ethnically Persian, but you must be born of Zoroastrian parents, or at least a Zoroastrian father, and thus, at least partially Persian, as Zoroastrians were originally Persian.
RatBot wrote: And the requirement may technically not include being ethnically Persian, but you must be born of Zoroastrian parents, or at least a Zoroastrian father
So between 1985 and 1996, a substantial gap of eleven years, we don't know when he lost touch with his faith. You can make assumptions, but those are assumptions with little to no evidence. We don't know if he lost his religion years before the bombing, or minutes after. That is why I have asked for a link to the interview, to clarify this matter.
It's funny you say that the assumptions everyone else is making aren't correct, but the assumptions you are making are, most likely because you are the one assuming them. We have the same evidence that you, however you just ignore it, so whatever buddy. The TIME magazine link is dead so you have to go by what the article you quoted says, which for the third time is: he "lost touch with the Church," however he still "maintains his core beliefs" in 1996.
It doesn't take expert level reading comprehension or deductive powers to figure that out.
Leaving that aside for the time being the Oklahoma bombing was a secular act of violence motivated by a political grievance (legitimate or otherwise). I don't believe that religion has been established as a factor in the attack in the OP, at present it appears to be an act of workplace violence.
We have established this, but that doesn't change the fact that you distorted the truth to fit your preconceived notions.
So between 1985 and 1996, a substantial gap of eleven years, we don't know when he lost touch with his faith. You can make assumptions, but those are assumptions with little to no evidence. We don't know if he lost his religion years before the bombing, or minutes after. That is why I have asked for a link to the interview, to clarify this matter.
It's funny you say that the assumptions everyone else is making aren't correct, but the assumptions you are making are, most likely because you are the one assuming them. We have the same evidence that you, however you just ignore it, so whatever buddy. The TIME magazine link is dead so you have to go by what the article you quoted says, which for the third time is: he "lost touch with the Church," however he still "maintains his core beliefs" in 1996.
It doesn't take expert level reading comprehension or deductive powers to figure that out.
"Whatever" - the last quip of the ignorant
I haven't ignored anything. I've posted it several times because people have either ignored what was posted or have picked and chose their quotes (more on this topic in a moment)
In his interview in 1996 he admits that he lost his faith. That does not mean that in 1996 he lost his faith. It may have lapsed some time before that. That is what I have been attempting to clarify. If you can provide me some actual evidence I'll gladly review my stance, until then it is still unclear as to when his faith lapsed.
Your selective quoting does you a dis-service, especially when you omit statements such as "he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up" " which calls into question whether or not he was practicing his religion.
Leaving that aside for the time being the Oklahoma bombing was a secular act of violence motivated by a political grievance (legitimate or otherwise). I don't believe that religion has been established as a factor in the attack in the OP, at present it appears to be an act of workplace violence.
We have established this, but that doesn't change the fact that you distorted the truth to fit your preconceived notions.
I have provided facts and sources. You have provided nothing of the sort. I have distorted nothing, I absolutely resent your baseless accusations. In no way was the Oklahoma bombing motivated by religious dogma. To claim otherwise would be to ignore all evidence that exists.
I haven't ignored anything. I've posted it several times because people have either ignored what was posted or have picked and chose their quotes (more on this topic in a moment)
No, you just have zero reading comprehension abilities. More on that later.
In his interview in 1996 he admits that he lost his faith. That does not mean that in 1996 he lost his faith. It may have lapsed some time before that. That is what I have been attempting to clarify. If you can provide me some actual evidence I'll gladly review my stance, until then it is still unclear as to when his faith lapsed.
Your selective quoting does you a dis-service, especially when you omit statements such as "he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up" " which calls into question whether or not he was practicing his religion.
No one, not even me, is claiming that he as a die-hard follower of Catholicism at the time of the bombing. One more time, read slow so it makes sense: no one is labeled him a die-hard follower of Catholicism. But again, that doesn't mean he was without religious thoughts, seeing how in the blurb you provided he even says he believes in God. You are the one making the ridiculous and baseless claim that he was faithless when he bombed the federal building... of which you have provided zero evidence of. To contrary, you're "evidence" actually has him claiming to believe in God (which is kinda hard for an agnostic to do, by the way). Great reading skills, yet again!
I have provided facts and sources. You have provided nothing of the sort. I have distorted nothing, I absolutely resent your baseless accusations. In no way was the Oklahoma bombing motivated by religious dogma. To claim otherwise would be to ignore all evidence that exists.
Look pal, NO ONE IS CLAIMING THAT. I took the liberty of quoting all of the times I clearly claimed that the bombing had nothing to do with religion. Enjoy:
So like Ouze said and we all agreed, he was not religiously motivated, but to claim he was without Christianity at the time of the bombing is an outright lie.
We have established this (PS- this was me agreeing with you that the bombing was not religiously motivated)
One more bit of information, for posterity's sake: McVeigh invited California conductor/composer David Woodard to perform pre-requiem Mass music on the eve of his execution. He requested a Catholic chaplain.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: No, you just have zero reading comprehension abilities. More on that later.
So your first resort is ad hominem? This promises to be a wholly worthwhile response you have prepared
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: No one, not even me, is claiming that he as a die-hard follower of Catholicism at the time of the bombing. One more time, read slow so it makes sense: no one is labeled him a die-hard follower of Catholicism. But again, that doesn't mean he was without religious thoughts, seeing how in the blurb you provided he even says he believes in God.
You mean no-one other than d-usa who attempted to identify him as a "white Christian right-wing military veteran extremist", and who also wondered why "whites, Christians, right-wingers, and military veterans are not painted with the same brush as the idiot who set off the bomb". Otherwise you're going to have to explain the significance of this because it doesn't seem to correspond with anything that I have actually said, and seems to refute arguments that I have not made
Lets looks at that entire passage one last time;
McVeigh was a registered Republican when he lived in Buffalo, New York, in the 1980s, and had a membership in the National Rifle Association while in the military,[83] but may have voted for Libertarian Party candidate, Harry Browne, in the 1996 presidential elections.[84] McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[85] During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly.[86] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[87] In a 1996 interview, McVeigh professed belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."[85] In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.[88][89] In June 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News identifying himself as agnostic.[90] Before his execution, McVeigh took the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.[91]
1985 - confirmed a Catholic
1986 - no confirmed religious belief
1987 - no confirmed religious belief
1988 - no confirmed religious belief
1989 - no confirmed religious belief
1990 - no confirmed religious belief
1991 - no confirmed religious belief
1992 - no confirmed religious belief
1993 - no confirmed religious belief
1994 - no confirmed religious belief
1995 - no confirmed religious belief
1996 - in an interview professed belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."
1997 - no confirmed religious belief
1998 - no confirmed religious belief
1999 - no confirmed religious belief
2000 - no confirmed religious belief
2001 - stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion
2002 - stated that he was agnostic but had a Catholic sacrament
Religious thoughts or not, it is immaterial because they were not a motivating factor
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: You are the one making the ridiculous and baseless claim that he was faithless when he bombed the federal building... of which you have provided zero evidence of.
Saying that he was not motivated by religious belief =/= faithless. I have repeatedly asked for clarification, you have provided none, resorted to ad hominems, and attempting to argue by attrition simply restating your argument and ignoring any counter argument
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: To contrary, you're "evidence" actually has him claiming to believe in God (which is kinda hard for an agnostic to do, by the way). Great reading skills, yet again!
I could respond in kind to your repeated ad hominems about reading comprehension by pointing out the incorrect use of "you're" but I won't drag this conversation down to your level of mud slinging.
So you want to say that he had religious thoughts at the time of the attack, but that he couldn't because he was agnostic. Should I point out the contradiction in that?
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Look pal, NO ONE IS CLAIMING THAT. I took the liberty of quoting all of the times I clearly claimed that the bombing had nothing to do with religion. Enjoy:
So like Ouze said and we all agreed, he was not religiously motivated, but to claim he was without Christianity at the time of the bombing is an outright lie.
We have established this (PS- this was me agreeing with you that the bombing was not religiously motivated)
Your reading comprehension skills should have allowed you to realize that my restating my point was a direct refuting of your baseless claim (which you managed to omit and still have not substantiated) that I somehow "distorted the truth"
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: One more bit of information, for posterity's sake: McVeigh invited California conductor/composer David Woodard to perform pre-requiem Mass music on the eve of his execution. He requested a Catholic chaplain.
So he was confirmed a Catholic, lapsed at some point as yet undetermined, was unsure of the existence of God, maintained some core beliefs, and asked for a Chaplain. So your point is that at various stages of is life he picked and chose what small parts of a faith he once adhered to to suit himself?
The fact that there is any hand wringing or questioning whether or not this is a terrorististic action is mind boggling, speaking only to what I've seen on other forums and social media. IDGAF who you are, if you saw somebody's head off with a knife you are seeking to inspire fear and/or intimidate anyone viewing or hearing of the activity. That is why cartels send bags of heads to public places. Its why ISIS jihadi's disseminate video's of it. Its why the guillotine was used for public executions in France.
As for the talk of religion, ALL Abrahamic faiths are inherently bloodthirsty and conquest oriented. Its perfectly fine to say that islam, christianity, or/and judaism is/are violent & dangerous ideologies because they ARE. The historical record supports this nicely, as does modernity. As to this particular case, if one tries to negate the overall context of the method of slaying, the timing with world events, and the extremist sentiments dude expressed you'd need to TRY not to see a connection with radical Abrahamic ideology.
(CNN) -- A man accused of beheading a woman in Oklahoma will be charged Monday, authorities said.
Charges against Alton Alexander Nolen will include first-degree murder and assault with a deadly weapon, according to Jeremy Lewis, spokesman for the Moore police department.
Nolen, a recent convert to Islam, allegedly attacked a woman Thursday at a Vaughan Foods processing plant, soon after he learned he'd lost his job there.
Police said he walked into the front office and attacked one of the first people he encountered, Colleen Hufford, 54. He severed her head with a knife and then attacked 43-year-old Traci Johnson. Johnson is in stable condition at a nearby hospital for treatment of "numerous wounds," according to police.
Mark Vaughan, the company CEO and a reserve deputy with the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Office, confronted and twice shot Nolen, authorities said.
Nolen, 30, was interviewed by investigators on Friday. Police have not revealed what he said.
Suspect's Facebook page focused on Islam
Nolen's Facebook page uses the name Jah'Keem Yisrael. The cover photo appears to be of fighters holding weapons. The postings include numerous all-caps messages about Islam and quotations from the Quran.
There's no reference to job dissatisfaction, and no indication he planned an attack.
Some postings are political, such as one that runs with an image of the Joker, from "Batman" comics: "AMERICA SO CALL HELPS IRAQ (WHICH NOT)- WELL WHY CANT U HELP THE GAZA CITIZENS AGAINST ISRAEL LOL..I UPLOAD THIS PIK BECAUSE AMERICA AND ISRAEL ARE WICKED. WAKE UP MUSLIMS!!!"
CNN confirmed with Moore police that the Facebook page and the images belong to Nolen.
No terrorism link found
Nolen had tried to convert co-workers to Islam, officials said.
U.S. law enforcement officials said there are no indications linking Thursday's attack to terrorism. In the Middle East, ISIS, which calls itself the Islamic State, has drawn world attention with videotaped beheadings.
In a Facebook video posted by Megan Nolan, two women who say they are Nolan's mother and sister apologize for his actions.
"I want to apologize to both families, because this is not Alton," said the woman who calls Nolan "my son." She says her son was a good kid.
"I know what they're saying what he did, but I'm gonna tell you this, that's not my son," she says. "My heart's bleeding right now."
The woman who identifies herself as Nolan's sister says he's never been a violent person.
"For something like this to have happened, we're all still in shock right now," she says. "We're praying for both of the victims' families, and I ask that everyone keep us in their prayers."
The Oklahoma Conference of Churches issued a statement Saturday urging "all Oklahomans and people everywhere not to equate Mr. (Nolen's) actions with the beliefs and practices of the Islamic Community in Oklahoma."
"The Islamic Community of Oklahoma has consistently condemned all violence -- most especially acts of violence ostensibly carried out in the name of Islam," the statement said. "Along with our Muslim brothers and sisters we affirm that true Islam is, in fact, a religion of peace and that those inflicting violence in the name of Islam are perverting Islam for their own ends."
National Muslim organizations have made similar statements as ISIS' brutality has come to light.
A 2011 Pew Research poll found that one in five Muslim-Americans believes there is either a great deal or fair amount of support for extremism in the Muslim-American community.
Nearly half said Muslim leaders in the United States had not done enough to speak out against extremism, while a third said Muslim leaders had done enough.
Eighty-one percent said suicide bombings and other violence against civilians to defend Islam are never justified.
Officer: I 'would have killed him'
Nolen was incarcerated until March 2013 for possession of a controlled substance, escaping confinement and resisting an officer.
CNN affiliate KOKI reported Nolen was arrested in 2006 when an officer saw him throw a bag of crack cocaine and a bag of marijuana out of a vehicle window as the officer pulled him over for traffic violations.
Nolen was put on probation, KOKI reported. In 2010, a state trooper stopped Nolen for an expired tag and discovered he had outstanding warrants, KOKI reported.
The trooper, Betsy Randolph, told CNN on Saturday that Nolen started struggling after she put a handcuff on one wrist. Nolen ran and was arrested after a 12-hour manhunt.
"He kept looking over his shoulder because he knew I wanted to shoot him, but obviously I couldn't shoot him in the back," Randolph told CNN. "If there had been any way to know the things he is alleged to have done a few days ago I would have killed him when I had a chance."
A spokesman for Gov. Mary Fallin, Alex Weintz, noted the governor had blocked Nolen from receiving parole in 2012.
Weintz said Saturday: "The suspect came up for parole in 2012 and the governor denied his parole. She reviewed his file and didn't think that he was a good candidate for early parole."
I think someone should have a talk with Trooper Randolph and see if there are some issues that she might want to address.
"I want to apologize to both families, because this is not Alton," said the woman who calls Nolan "my son." She says her son was a good kid.
"I know what they're saying what he did, but I'm gonna tell you this, that's not my son," she says. "My heart's bleeding right now."
That is just so rich... Clearly this lady is delusional. How many witnesses were there? I'm sure the workplace has some security cameras around. Clearly "Mother" is wrong about who her kid is.
"I want to apologize to both families, because this is not Alton," said the woman who calls Nolan "my son." She says her son was a good kid.
"I know what they're saying what he did, but I'm gonna tell you this, that's not my son," she says. "My heart's bleeding right now."
That is just so rich... Clearly this lady is delusional. How many witnesses were there? I'm sure the workplace has some security cameras around. Clearly "Mother" is wrong about who her kid is.
Calling the lady delusional for not wanting to remember her son as someone who beheaded a coworker is a bit much, don't you think?
Calling the lady delusional for not wanting to remember her son as someone who beheaded a coworker is a bit much, don't you think?
As has been pointed out... the dude had a pretty serious record... Assaulting people, multiple times, escape from detention facilities, drug charges?? Yeah, this is not a "good kid" or does mom not know about that stuff?
I can understand the sentiment IF this had been his first ever incident with the law, but it isnt... In fact, he's apparently been in prison multiple times (or at least for an extended time)
the shrouded lord wrote: how did he cut someone's head off with a KNIFE. also, the ceo is a hero.
From the article, I think the plant is a meat processing plant, and has a lot of really big, really sharp knives... The OP article talked about the knife he used being similar to/same as what was used there normally. It also made it sound like this was a fairly lengthy process, with a lot of rough hacks after he'd stabbed her a fair few times.
Jihadi John seems to be making short work of journalists with a knife. I don't think it would be difficult as such, it's just the concept is so monstrous and disturbing to most people that you wouldn't think it possible. I certainly wouldn't have the stomach for it.
Ouze wrote: Yeah, usually cops are pretty good about pretending they don't want to shoot someone who at the time posed no threat of death or injury to someone.
It's OK, buddy. More fish in the sea, I'm sure you'll get to shoot some fleeing suspect eventually!
Also, not to be a pendantic jerk, but it's Trooper Randolph, not Trooper Nolen - Nolen is the beheading suspect.
I don't really get that feeling from the text-it sounds like hindsight in the officer's comment: they're trained not to shoot fleeing victims (for good reason), but the officer would have broken training if he/she had known the misery this man would cause in the future. That's how I see it anyway. There are plenty of bloodthirsty cops who don't deserve to be cops. I don't think this counts as an example of one. I think this is a case of hindsight wanting to prevent misery.
Well, that;s your reading, and that's fair. My reading, from her words:
"He kept looking over his shoulder because he knew I wanted to shoot him, but obviously I couldn't shoot him in the back," Randolph told CNN. "If there had been any way to know the things he is alleged to have done a few days ago I would have killed him when I had a chance."
is that she wanted to shoot him because he threw drugs out of the window and then fled. Later on came a situation that kind of retroactively made her initial desire to summarily execute him not-so-bad, that the legal system was all the held her back from doing what she, in her heart, knew to be justice: shooting a fleeing petty drug bust perp.
She should have gone for it anyway: as I understand it if you shoot a guy in the back in Oklahoma, the chief of police can ask the medical examiner to change the autopsy report to make you look better.
I am super not getting the vibe that she was some bloodthirsty monster who wanted to shoot him because of some drugs. She just would have shot him had she known that he was going to saw some innocent ladies head off a few years later. Which is justifiable, to me.
Sound is busted on this work computer but I could read the transcript at least.
I'll watch the video when I get home - the transcript is problematic. Maybe I'm just reading too much into 2 sentences, or maybe that other Oklahoma shooting is coloring my view.
Ouze wrote: I'll watch the video when I get home - the transcript is problematic. Maybe I'm just reading too much into 2 sentences, or maybe that other Oklahoma shooting is coloring my view.
Her comments are problematic, but they are pretty clearly motivated by his recent actions. I'm guessing there was a push question that was not included in the final edit.
if you were psychic, and a few days ago, you, knowing what this guy would do, met him while out hunting (or some other situation where you had a gun) would you not be morally obligated to shoot him?
Frankly, I'm amazed at the self control of the guy that shot the beheader. Almost as amazed as I am that so many people are clamoring to rationalize what this monster did...
From all apparent data the dude was the black muslim equivalent of a white neo-nazi skinhead. Hate makes people into animals, its sick.
the shrouded lord wrote: if you were psychic, and a few days ago, you, knowing what this guy would do, met him while out hunting (or some other situation where you had a gun) would you not be morally obligated to shoot him?
if I were out hunting and this guy appeared with a big knife he'd be gone anyway.
the shrouded lord wrote: if you were psychic, and a few days ago, you, knowing what this guy would do, met him while out hunting (or some other situation where you had a gun) would you not be morally obligated to shoot him?
if I were out hunting and this guy appeared with a big knife he'd be gone anyway.
the shrouded lord wrote: if you were psychic, and a few days ago, you, knowing what this guy would do, met him while out hunting (or some other situation where you had a gun) would you not be morally obligated to shoot him?
if I were out hunting and this guy appeared with a big knife he'd be gone anyway.
wearing a ghilli suit?
Especially if he were wearing a ghilli suit.
Now if he were wearing a Tye Dye shirt I'd say share the wealth dude, but thats a different story.
the shrouded lord wrote: if you were psychic, and a few days ago, you, knowing what this guy would do, met him while out hunting (or some other situation where you had a gun) would you not be morally obligated to shoot him?
Trick question! There is no such thing as a psychic!
the shrouded lord wrote: if you were psychic, and a few days ago, you, knowing what this guy would do, met him while out hunting (or some other situation where you had a gun) would you not be morally obligated to shoot him?
Trick question! There is no such thing as a psychic!
You say that but some people believe in that and get charge out the freaking nose for a reading...
Peter Wiggin wrote: Frankly, I'm amazed at the self control of the guy that shot the beheader. Almost as amazed as I am that so many people are clamoring to rationalize what this monster did...
Can you give a single example of a person in this thread that rationalized what the suspect did?
Peter Wiggin wrote: Frankly, I'm amazed at the self control of the guy that shot the beheader. Almost as amazed as I am that so many people are clamoring to rationalize what this monster did...
Can you give a single example of a person in this thread that rationalized what the suspect did?
Edit
Going to say we hedging on it not being a Jihadist thing being it
STILLWATER — Covered in blood and still holding a large knife that police say he’d used just minutes before to nearly decapitate his brother’s roommate, Isaiah Zoar Marin dialed 911.
“I murdered someone,” Marin told the operator.
Moments later Wednesday afternoon, police say they found Marin running west near a car dealership on State Highway 51, still carrying the weapon. When they asked Marin where he was coming from, authorities say Marin directed them to a nearby apartment where they found the body of Jacob Andrew Crockett, 19, of Stillwater.
On Thursday, Marin, 21, was charged with first-degree murder. Police say Marin confessed to killing Crockett. The men had been classmates at Stillwater High School, the school’s principal said.
Crockett is the son of an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper, police said.
During a video arraignment Thursday afternoon in front of Payne County Special Judge Robert Hert, Marin’s voice sputtered and he appeared to cry as he answered the judge’s questions. Marin was ordered held without bail. He is due back in court Dec. 1.
At a news conference earlier in the day, Stillwater police Capt. Randy Dickerson said Marin admitted to authorities “that he had fantasized recently about committing multiple homicides” and that the victim was “one of his intended targets.”
“The conversation was that he had planned to to do it all at one time,” the police captain said.
The victim’s brother, Jesse Crockett, told police Marin is a “religious zealot” and “heavy drug user,” according to a court affidavit.
Police confirmed there was evidence at the scene that Marin might have been involved in the use of some illegal drugs.
The defendant’s brother, Samuel Marin, said “in the past Jacob and Isaiah had disagreements because Jacob and Jesse were practicing witchcraft and Isaiah had strong Christian beliefs,” a Stillwater police officer reported in the affidavit.
Dickerson was quick to point out at the news conference that the case was not related to recent cases of beheadings by Islamic extremists — including the attack in September by an Islamic convert at Vaughan Foods in Moore.
The police officer who wrote the affidavit, Jeff Watts, reported that the victim had what appeared to be multiple deep slash and stab wounds and the “head was mostly severed from his body.”
Samuel Marin said he and Isaiah Marin were playing a card game in the apartment when “Isaiah picked up a large black sword and removed it from a sheath … and began swinging the sword around,” the officer reported.
Court records show that Samuel Marin and Jesse and Jacob Crockett were roommates in an apartment at 416 S Oakdale, Apt. 6.
Samuel Marin said he asked his brother to be careful and Isaiah replied, “I would never cut you bro,” according to the affidavit.
Samuel Marin said he then heard the noise of someone getting stabbed and looked up “and saw Jacob stand up and blood gushing from his chest,” the detective reported.
Samuel Marin said he fled the apartment, but his brother followed him, trying to calm him down, according to the affidavit.
“Samuel said Isaiah stated he would explain why he killed Jacob from letters he would write while he was in prison,” according to the affidavit.
The defendant’s brother also told police “Isaiah had been watching YouTube videos related to his Christian beliefs and the Book of Matthew” earlier.
During Isaiah Marin’s 911 call, “the caller began rambling about sacrificing and magic,” according to the affidavit. “Asked how … he murdered someone, Isaiah stated, ‘I hacked them to death with a machete.’”
In August, on one of his Facebook pages, Isaiah Marin wrote, “Tried to take on a demon and God had to help me through the tough parts. Got to be careful with my words and pay closer attention to my emotions. Need to figure out how to keep on speaking when I’m with the presence of the Lord God.”
Dickerson said the killing happened at the apartment on S Oakdale, on the west side of Stillwater.
Isaiah Marin was taken into custody after he was found by police jogging along State Highway 51, Dickerson said.
Witnesses called police to say they saw a blood-covered man walking near a car dealership along the highway.
Trish Ellis, a saleswoman at the Janzen Toyota car dealership along SH 51, said “We saw him coming through the parking lot covered in blood. I thought it was a Halloween costume at first, but then people started to get frightened when they saw his weapon.”
Witnesses said Isaiah Marin was taken into custody just west of the car dealership, along the side of the roadway.
The complex of two-story apartments where Jacob Crockett’s body was found is located behind the dealership, which is on the north side of the highway.
A neighbor at the apartment, who declined to give his name, said Jacob and Jesse Crockett were in a “heavy metal band.”
“They were outstanding guys, they were always really respectful,” the neighbor said Thursday afternoon.
Police said Jacob Crockett was a student at the Northern Oklahoma College campus in Stillwater.
Dickerson said the fact that Jacob Crockett’s father is a state trooper has not been shown to be a motive in the case.
Jacob Crockett graduated from Stillwater High School this year, Principal Uwe Gordon said. Isaiah Marin graduated in 2012.
Gordon described Crockett as “an amazing character.”
“I love that kid,” Gordon said. “He was unique and appreciated others’ uniqueness.”
He said students on Thursday expressed concern after hearing about Crockett’s death, and some were asking about the funeral.
“It’s been a tough week for Stillwater High School,” he said.
Marin had worked at a popular Mexican restaurant, El Vaquero, on Stillwater’s west side. Employees there said he was a part-time bus boy for about three weeks before he quit. Workers said they could not recall much about him.
The victim’s brother, Jesse Crockett, told police Marin is a “religious zealot” and “heavy drug user,” according to a court affidavit.
Police confirmed there was evidence at the scene that Marin might have been involved in the use of some illegal drugs.
Maybe you could have put some emphasis on his drug abuse too, in the interests of accuracy as well as equality. It'll be interesting to see if mental health issues are at play also
Kanluwen wrote: How much more emphasis could be put on the drug abuse?
As many as it takes to pretend this wasn't an act of religious extremist by a Christian.
The pair of you can stop it now. Read what I said;
"Maybe you could have put some emphasis on his drug abuse too, in the interests of accuracy as well as equality. It'll be interesting to see if mental health issues are at play also"
Now read how d-usa choose to frame the incident
He chose the custom title for the URL that solely mentioned his faith as a motivating factor. What he typed does not match the headline of the actual article either. Instead the phrasing deliberately skewed the incident and omitted a vital factor that was not in place in the attack that generated this thread.
So the pair of you can stop being disingenuous. Ouze, I expect better from you.
The victim’s brother, Jesse Crockett, told police Marin is a “religious zealot” and “heavy drug user,” according to a court affidavit.
Police confirmed there was evidence at the scene that Marin might have been involved in the use of some illegal drugs.
Maybe you could have put some emphasis on his drug abuse too, in the interests of accuracy as well as equality. It'll be interesting to see if mental health issues are at play also
Dreadclaw69 wrote:So the pair of you can stop being disingenuous. Ouze, I expect better from you.
If you were referring to someone else's actions as your are now claiming, that was not evident from your quote. So it's on you however you want to slice it.
Ouze wrote: If you were referring to someone else's actions as your are now claiming, that was not evident from your quote. So it's on you however you want to slice it.
Get it? Slice it? Oh man.
It was not evident when I quoted the article d-usa posted, replied directly to him, and said "you'? That should have been reasonable sufficient context, my apologies if you mis-read it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ouze wrote: Well, you have to discount what he actually said, bro.
You mean;
During Isaiah Marin’s 911 call, “the caller began rambling about sacrificing and magic,” according to the affidavit. “Asked how … he murdered someone, Isaiah stated, ‘I hacked them to death with a machete.’
In August, on one of his Facebook pages, Isaiah Marin wrote, “Tried to take on a demon and God had to help me through the tough parts. Got to be careful with my words and pay closer attention to my emotions. Need to figure out how to keep on speaking when I’m with the presence of the Lord God.”
Please tell me what part of those action, and words, appear to be coming from someone of sound mind and disposition? Please document for me whether these actions are common practice in the Christian tradition, and the frequency in which they occur as part of genuine religious belief.
For bonus points I'll also accept the Christian teachings that undermine the whole "love one another" and "thou shalt not kill"
Dreadclaw69 wrote: It was not evident when I quoted the article d-usa posted, replied directly to him, and said "you'? That should have been reasonable sufficient context, my apologies if you mis-read it
You didn't reply to him, or anyone else. From what you actually wrote, you seemed to be criticizing the article. So it's not I misread your intent, is it?
Eh, I see that as a reply to d-usa's post, and the reason the article is quoted is to emphasise the fact the guy is also a drug user by showing the relevant text in the article.
I think this entire argument now though is somewhat proving d-usa's point though already, so cool!
See, this is only really funny if you go back and read the first page, where the emphasis was on that the guy was (probably) a muslim, but also a psycho. Now that it was a christian dude, the emphasis is on the fact he's a wacked out tweaker first and also a christian. So, it's kinda funny.
Whembly in particular I feel I should note has been very consistent on the lunatic end of both rather than on the religious bent, I mention that because I didn't want to seem I was making this observation about him.
Whembly in particular I feel I should note has been very consistent on the lunatic end of both rather than on the religious bent, I mention that because I didn't want to seem I was making this observation about him.
Thanks...
In general, I think the distinction needs to be made that perps who does this use their religion as an excuse to justify their actions... rather, than arguing that these folks do these things becauseof their religion.
Ouze wrote: See, this is only really funny if you go back and read the first page, where the emphasis was on that the guy was (probably) a muslim, but also a psycho. Now that it was a christian dude, the emphasis is on the fact he's a wacked out tweaker first and also a christian. So, it's kinda funny.
You know what else is kind of funny? That the only person who pointed out this attacker's drug use was me. And I did not reply on the first page of this thread. I also did not emphasize that attacker in the OP was Muslim. In fact upon reviewing the thread I made no reference to the attacker's religion. So please do not use the words of others as a tool to beat me with. I am responsible for what I say, and at no time in this thread did display the double standard of which you now complain.
Ouze wrote: See, this is only really funny if you go back and read the first page, where the emphasis was on that the guy was (probably) a muslim, but also a psycho. Now that it was a christian dude, the emphasis is on the fact he's a wacked out tweaker first and also a christian. So, it's kinda funny.
You know what else is kind of funny? That the only person who pointed out this attacker's drug use was me.
Well, you and several instances in the article in question.
It's almost like I tried to hide it by posting it, I can't believe my trick failed!
Watching the media and politicians in Oklahoma, it is amazing (but not surprising) how two cases that are so similar get such different treatments. And that's not even talking about social media. I've been meaning to keep a running total of "people murdered in Oklahoma but nobody cares unless the killer is Muslim", but then we get this joker with the same amount of religious influence in his behavior (fanatical, social media posts about their religions, get in fights with others about their religions) and the same amount of religious cause in their motivations for murder (none).
Couldn't ask for a better example of double standards.
d-usa wrote: It's almost like I tried to hide it by posting it, I can't believe my trick failed!
Watching the media and politicians in Oklahoma, it is amazing (but not surprising) how two cases that are so similar get such different treatments. And that's not even talking about social media. I've been meaning to keep a running total of "people murdered in Oklahoma but nobody cares unless the killer is Muslim", but then we get this joker with the same amount of religious influence in his behavior (fanatical, social media posts about their religions, get in fights with others about their religions) and the same amount of religious cause in their motivations for murder (none).
Couldn't ask for a better example of double standards.
Have any of the Muslim inspired attackers been heavy drug users?
Would you agree that, even if religion was the primary factor in both cases, that Islam has a much greater proportion of dangerous crazies? Christianity produces so few as to be safely ignored, Islam doesn't.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Was it ever established that this was purely religion based?
The OP was a guy who was pissed that he got fired and attacked the women because they were white and he felt that they didn't like him because he was black. It would be fitting of a hate-crime prosecution IMO, but it had nothing to do with his religion.
d-usa wrote: It's almost like I tried to hide it by posting it, I can't believe my trick failed!
Watching the media and politicians in Oklahoma, it is amazing (but not surprising) how two cases that are so similar get such different treatments. And that's not even talking about social media. I've been meaning to keep a running total of "people murdered in Oklahoma but nobody cares unless the killer is Muslim", but then we get this joker with the same amount of religious influence in his behavior (fanatical, social media posts about their religions, get in fights with others about their religions) and the same amount of religious cause in their motivations for murder (none).
Couldn't ask for a better example of double standards.
Have any of the Muslim inspired attackers been heavy drug users?
The Muslim guy was in prison a few times for drug possession, so make of that what you will.
d-usa wrote: It's almost like I tried to hide it by posting it, I can't believe my trick failed!
You mean like a custom URL that you typed that only focused on his religion, and made no mention of the drug abuse?
You mean the whole fething article that I posted? The article with many words in it? With some of these words clearly stating what I am apparently hiding?
STILLWATER — Covered in blood and still holding a large knife that police say he’d used just minutes before to nearly decapitate his brother’s roommate, Isaiah Zoar Marin dialed 911.
“I murdered someone,” Marin told the operator.
Moments later Wednesday afternoon, police say they found Marin running west near a car dealership on State Highway 51, still carrying the weapon. When they asked Marin where he was coming from, authorities say Marin directed them to a nearby apartment where they found the body of Jacob Andrew Crockett, 19, of Stillwater.
On Thursday, Marin, 21, was charged with first-degree murder. Police say Marin confessed to killing Crockett. The men had been classmates at Stillwater High School, the school’s principal said.
Crockett is the son of an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper, police said.
During a video arraignment Thursday afternoon in front of Payne County Special Judge Robert Hert, Marin’s voice sputtered and he appeared to cry as he answered the judge’s questions. Marin was ordered held without bail. He is due back in court Dec. 1.
At a news conference earlier in the day, Stillwater police Capt. Randy Dickerson said Marin admitted to authorities “that he had fantasized recently about committing multiple homicides” and that the victim was “one of his intended targets.”
“The conversation was that he had planned to to do it all at one time,” the police captain said.
The victim’s brother, Jesse Crockett, told police Marin is a “religious zealot” and “heavy drug user,” according to a court affidavit.
Police confirmed there was evidence at the scene that Marin might have been involved in the use of some illegal drugs.
The defendant’s brother, Samuel Marin, said “in the past Jacob and Isaiah had disagreements because Jacob and Jesse were practicing witchcraft and Isaiah had strong Christian beliefs,” a Stillwater police officer reported in the affidavit.
Dickerson was quick to point out at the news conference that the case was not related to recent cases of beheadings by Islamic extremists — including the attack in September by an Islamic convert at Vaughan Foods in Moore.
The police officer who wrote the affidavit, Jeff Watts, reported that the victim had what appeared to be multiple deep slash and stab wounds and the “head was mostly severed from his body.”
Samuel Marin said he and Isaiah Marin were playing a card game in the apartment when “Isaiah picked up a large black sword and removed it from a sheath … and began swinging the sword around,” the officer reported.
Court records show that Samuel Marin and Jesse and Jacob Crockett were roommates in an apartment at 416 S Oakdale, Apt. 6.
Samuel Marin said he asked his brother to be careful and Isaiah replied, “I would never cut you bro,” according to the affidavit.
Samuel Marin said he then heard the noise of someone getting stabbed and looked up “and saw Jacob stand up and blood gushing from his chest,” the detective reported.
Samuel Marin said he fled the apartment, but his brother followed him, trying to calm him down, according to the affidavit.
“Samuel said Isaiah stated he would explain why he killed Jacob from letters he would write while he was in prison,” according to the affidavit.
The defendant’s brother also told police “Isaiah had been watching YouTube videos related to his Christian beliefs and the Book of Matthew” earlier.
During Isaiah Marin’s 911 call, “the caller began rambling about sacrificing and magic,” according to the affidavit. “Asked how … he murdered someone, Isaiah stated, ‘I hacked them to death with a machete.’”
In August, on one of his Facebook pages, Isaiah Marin wrote, “Tried to take on a demon and God had to help me through the tough parts. Got to be careful with my words and pay closer attention to my emotions. Need to figure out how to keep on speaking when I’m with the presence of the Lord God.”
Dickerson said the killing happened at the apartment on S Oakdale, on the west side of Stillwater.
Isaiah Marin was taken into custody after he was found by police jogging along State Highway 51, Dickerson said.
Witnesses called police to say they saw a blood-covered man walking near a car dealership along the highway.
Trish Ellis, a saleswoman at the Janzen Toyota car dealership along SH 51, said “We saw him coming through the parking lot covered in blood. I thought it was a Halloween costume at first, but then people started to get frightened when they saw his weapon.”
Witnesses said Isaiah Marin was taken into custody just west of the car dealership, along the side of the roadway.
The complex of two-story apartments where Jacob Crockett’s body was found is located behind the dealership, which is on the north side of the highway.
A neighbor at the apartment, who declined to give his name, said Jacob and Jesse Crockett were in a “heavy metal band.”
“They were outstanding guys, they were always really respectful,” the neighbor said Thursday afternoon.
Police said Jacob Crockett was a student at the Northern Oklahoma College campus in Stillwater.
Dickerson said the fact that Jacob Crockett’s father is a state trooper has not been shown to be a motive in the case.
Jacob Crockett graduated from Stillwater High School this year, Principal Uwe Gordon said. Isaiah Marin graduated in 2012.
Gordon described Crockett as “an amazing character.”
“I love that kid,” Gordon said. “He was unique and appreciated others’ uniqueness.”
He said students on Thursday expressed concern after hearing about Crockett’s death, and some were asking about the funeral.
“It’s been a tough week for Stillwater High School,” he said.
Marin had worked at a popular Mexican restaurant, El Vaquero, on Stillwater’s west side. Employees there said he was a part-time bus boy for about three weeks before he quit. Workers said they could not recall much about him.
But yeah, you can make the argument that I tried to hide it by posting it. It's an argument that makes you look pretty foolish, but you can make it.
d-usa wrote: It's almost like I tried to hide it by posting it, I can't believe my trick failed!
You mean like a custom URL that you typed that only focused on his religion, and made no mention of the drug abuse?
You mean the whole fething article that I posted? The article with many words in it? With some of these words clearly stating what I am apparently hiding?
STILLWATER — Covered in blood and still holding a large knife that police say he’d used just minutes before to nearly decapitate his brother’s roommate, Isaiah Zoar Marin dialed 911.
“I murdered someone,” Marin told the operator.
Moments later Wednesday afternoon, police say they found Marin running west near a car dealership on State Highway 51, still carrying the weapon. When they asked Marin where he was coming from, authorities say Marin directed them to a nearby apartment where they found the body of Jacob Andrew Crockett, 19, of Stillwater.
On Thursday, Marin, 21, was charged with first-degree murder. Police say Marin confessed to killing Crockett. The men had been classmates at Stillwater High School, the school’s principal said.
Crockett is the son of an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper, police said.
During a video arraignment Thursday afternoon in front of Payne County Special Judge Robert Hert, Marin’s voice sputtered and he appeared to cry as he answered the judge’s questions. Marin was ordered held without bail. He is due back in court Dec. 1.
At a news conference earlier in the day, Stillwater police Capt. Randy Dickerson said Marin admitted to authorities “that he had fantasized recently about committing multiple homicides” and that the victim was “one of his intended targets.”
“The conversation was that he had planned to to do it all at one time,” the police captain said.
The victim’s brother, Jesse Crockett, told police Marin is a “religious zealot” and “heavy drug user,” according to a court affidavit.
Police confirmed there was evidence at the scene that Marin might have been involved in the use of some illegal drugs.
The defendant’s brother, Samuel Marin, said “in the past Jacob and Isaiah had disagreements because Jacob and Jesse were practicing witchcraft and Isaiah had strong Christian beliefs,” a Stillwater police officer reported in the affidavit.
Dickerson was quick to point out at the news conference that the case was not related to recent cases of beheadings by Islamic extremists — including the attack in September by an Islamic convert at Vaughan Foods in Moore.
The police officer who wrote the affidavit, Jeff Watts, reported that the victim had what appeared to be multiple deep slash and stab wounds and the “head was mostly severed from his body.”
Samuel Marin said he and Isaiah Marin were playing a card game in the apartment when “Isaiah picked up a large black sword and removed it from a sheath … and began swinging the sword around,” the officer reported.
Court records show that Samuel Marin and Jesse and Jacob Crockett were roommates in an apartment at 416 S Oakdale, Apt. 6.
Samuel Marin said he asked his brother to be careful and Isaiah replied, “I would never cut you bro,” according to the affidavit.
Samuel Marin said he then heard the noise of someone getting stabbed and looked up “and saw Jacob stand up and blood gushing from his chest,” the detective reported.
Samuel Marin said he fled the apartment, but his brother followed him, trying to calm him down, according to the affidavit.
“Samuel said Isaiah stated he would explain why he killed Jacob from letters he would write while he was in prison,” according to the affidavit.
The defendant’s brother also told police “Isaiah had been watching YouTube videos related to his Christian beliefs and the Book of Matthew” earlier.
During Isaiah Marin’s 911 call, “the caller began rambling about sacrificing and magic,” according to the affidavit. “Asked how … he murdered someone, Isaiah stated, ‘I hacked them to death with a machete.’”
In August, on one of his Facebook pages, Isaiah Marin wrote, “Tried to take on a demon and God had to help me through the tough parts. Got to be careful with my words and pay closer attention to my emotions. Need to figure out how to keep on speaking when I’m with the presence of the Lord God.”
Dickerson said the killing happened at the apartment on S Oakdale, on the west side of Stillwater.
Isaiah Marin was taken into custody after he was found by police jogging along State Highway 51, Dickerson said.
Witnesses called police to say they saw a blood-covered man walking near a car dealership along the highway.
Trish Ellis, a saleswoman at the Janzen Toyota car dealership along SH 51, said “We saw him coming through the parking lot covered in blood. I thought it was a Halloween costume at first, but then people started to get frightened when they saw his weapon.”
Witnesses said Isaiah Marin was taken into custody just west of the car dealership, along the side of the roadway.
The complex of two-story apartments where Jacob Crockett’s body was found is located behind the dealership, which is on the north side of the highway.
A neighbor at the apartment, who declined to give his name, said Jacob and Jesse Crockett were in a “heavy metal band.”
“They were outstanding guys, they were always really respectful,” the neighbor said Thursday afternoon.
Police said Jacob Crockett was a student at the Northern Oklahoma College campus in Stillwater.
Dickerson said the fact that Jacob Crockett’s father is a state trooper has not been shown to be a motive in the case.
Jacob Crockett graduated from Stillwater High School this year, Principal Uwe Gordon said. Isaiah Marin graduated in 2012.
Gordon described Crockett as “an amazing character.”
“I love that kid,” Gordon said. “He was unique and appreciated others’ uniqueness.”
He said students on Thursday expressed concern after hearing about Crockett’s death, and some were asking about the funeral.
“It’s been a tough week for Stillwater High School,” he said.
Marin had worked at a popular Mexican restaurant, El Vaquero, on Stillwater’s west side. Employees there said he was a part-time bus boy for about three weeks before he quit. Workers said they could not recall much about him.
But yeah, you can make the argument that I tried to hide it by posting it. It's an argument that makes you look pretty foolish, but you can make it.
Except that isn't what I said. Stop pretending that it is. What I said was "You mean like a custom URL that you typed that only focused on his religion, and made no mention of the drug abuse?". You choose to type that. You chose to put the emphasis on the religion and not the drugs. Why the omission unless you wanted to highlight one aspect and ignore the other?
I presented all the facts, in the same way the OP was presented. I didn't leave anything out since I posted the story that included every fact. It is interesting to see how people react when a Christian does the exact same thing and when the story is presented the exact same way. It's also telling to see people try to highlight different things in one story while being silent during the other.
But again, I presented nothing but correct facts in the naming of the link, and I presented nothing but correct facts by posting the whole story. He was a fanatical Christian and he beheaded someone. I didn't infer a casual relationship and I never pretended that nothing else could be a contributing cause.
I wouldn't convert to Islam because they have food rules, that more then the 5 times a day prayer thing... I mean I don't tango with religions that get in the way of me and food lol
the shrouded lord wrote: christians also killed hundreds of inoscent women during the witch-hunts....
The number of people supposedly killed in witch hunts is way over-exaggerated. They were not common events. A few hundred people over several thousand years shouldn't ever register on the "give a gak o-meter"
And witch hunts actually owed more of their origins to pagan traditions than to Christianity.
Although up here there's a basement, and I could probably spend my student loan on enough food to hide from all the radical islamic extremi-terror-jihadists that are no doubt crawling through the streets of Sheffield at this very moment, forcing my female friends to wear burkas, and imposing sharia law on toddlers.
.
