So people were talking about Tank Shock with Dark Eldar. So naturally people were reading the tank shock rules, which was when I realized is it possible to tank shock from deep strike?
So Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear named Chain Snares that allow a vehicle to Tank Shock even if it is not a Tank.
The rules for tank shock though are that you have to declare a tank shock and you can in fact tank shock from reserve. There's nothing that says you can't name ZERO as your movement then just place the Dark Eldar Venom or whatever on top of a unit. As long as it isn't a vehicle.
So someone correct me.
Cause a vehicle Deep Striking counts as moving at Combat Speed.
You can state that you are deep striking when you move on from reserve.
Desubot wrote: Except the tank shocks from reserves thing.
Which says that you can tank shock from reserves, but doesn't actually provide a mechanism for doing so.
Yay for GW once again.
Pretty much. but to be fair there are rules for moving tanks onto the table from a table side (please the vehicle on the table edge then move like normal (DT and all)
there are no actual "movement" rules for things that drop out of the sky.
Desubot wrote: Except the tank shocks from reserves thing.
Which says that you can tank shock from reserves, but doesn't actually provide a mechanism for doing so.
Yay for GW once again.
Pretty much. but to be fair there are rules for moving tanks onto the table from a table side (please the vehicle on the table edge then move like normal (DT and all)
there are no actual "movement" rules for things that drop out of the sky.
Vehicles, except for Walkers, count as having moved at Combat Speed (even Immobilised vehicles)
Tank Shock
Tank Shock from Reserve
A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from Reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board.
To perform a Tank Shock, first, turn the vehicle on the spot to face the direction you intend to move it and, after pre-measuring, declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move, up to its maximum speed. The vehicle must move at least Combat Speed. Note that, because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a Tank Shock. Once the Tank has been ‘aimed’ and the intended distance declared, move the Tank straight forwards until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared – no other changes of direction are allowed in a Tank Shock.
You can absolutely declare 0 then not move it 0 and it has reached the distance it has traveled and landed on a enemy unit as you place it from Deep Strike, hell if you declare it Tank Shocking and it scatters onto a unit that unit get's tank shocked.
"Moving on from reserve When a reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's table edge (pg130), measure the model's move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn....... .... if for some reason a model's maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes immobilized whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can..............."
So how do you declare moving 0 then scatter 12 inchs to the left?
you have basically broken the rules as you cannot move further than the declared movement.
Yup, without the requirement to turn the vehicle on the spot to 'aim it', your idea would be fine.
If we assume that there is supposed to be a rule allowing you to ignore this requirement when tank shocking from reserves, then it's still fine.
If we assume instead that the missing rule would tell us to declare the vehicle's facing as if it was sitting just off the table and move it in that direction, then the Deep Strike plan runs into a problem unless you're going to ram it front-first into the table.
But as the RAW currently stands, no, it doesn't work. But neither does tank shocking from reserves generally, which should work.
You have to face it before you move the model at all.
Deep Striking is movement.
Actually you just have to declare the direction, it's not on the board. I could say it's tank shocking and place it facing south it doesn't matter because tank shock only cares if it gets to that distance. That's what the second part of the sentence states.
Yes and when does that happen? Before it comes in from reserve? Meaning you have to pivot a model offboard? Or when it's placed on the board from deep strike?
Here is the order I see it then you declare your order.
I select a Venom from reserve.
I roll for it's reserve roll, it succeeds.
I declare that it is tank shocking when it arrives from reserve.
I place it according to the deep strike rules.
It scatters onto a unit.
or
I place it over a unit , it hits.
Now what?
It's still tank shocking a unit because I declared it was tanking shocking so if it scatters onto a unit then it's a tank shocking vehicle that has moved over a unit.
Hollismason wrote: You can absolutely declare 0 then not move it 0 and it has reached the distance it has traveled and landed on a enemy unit as you place it from Deep Strike, hell if you declare it Tank Shocking and it scatters onto a unit that unit get's tank shocked.
So you can move on to the board by declaring that you are not moving but yet count as moving?
you cannot dismebark units on a vehicle if it tank shocks, so first off this is not a great idea.
You may be allowed to do this from reserves, but RAW this is not possible to do from deep striking as you cannot move when you deep strike and there is no permission to place yourself in base contact with a non friendly model as deepstrike initial placement is not movement, it is deploying.
Pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, so the vehicle cannot move 0" and tank shock something.
Tank shock requires that you pivot and move a distance you declare. Then you move the model and if an enemy non vehicle unit is reached by this movement you tank shock them, so you cannot declare 0".
You can tank shock from reserves as you have a spot you are entering from, you can declare the distance and measure a straight line for the path. There is no movement distance or path when arriving from deepstrike and there is no permission to deploy within 1" of an enemy model, as that is a mishap.
tank shock gives permission to move through models, not deploy within 1".
You would just mishap before you are placed on the table.
RAW this doesn't work as a tank shock, its just a way to mishap.
tank shocking from reserves only works when you are actually moving some measurable distance on the board from off the board where you are not starting in base contact with an enemy model.
There is general permission to perform tank shock during your movement distance onto the board from reserves.
some methods of entering reserves allow you to do this, ie moving on normally from table edge.
some methods do not actually have you move a distance, ie deep strike.
so although generally there is permission to tank shock from reserves, the way some methods of arriving from reserves works does not allow them to move after being deployed, so they may count as moving, but they are not moving in a direction on the table.
so you roll for reserves, you pick a DSing model
you place it in base to base to enemy unit, before you can finish deployment you have now mishapped, roll on mishap chart, then you can try to tank shock but of course you cannot as you have mishapped and also have no permission to turn or move in a certain direction at this point due to the rules for deep strike.
Psienesis wrote:Does the vehicle have a Combat Speed of less than or equal to 0?
Doesn't matter. However far it moves, it counts as moving at Combat Speed because it Deep Struck.
Does matter if this is the actual rule:
To perform a Tank Shock, first, turn the vehicle on the spot to face the direction you intend to move it and, after pre-measuring, declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move, up to its maximum speed. The vehicle must move at least Combat Speed. Note that, because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a Tank Shock.
Don't have the book in front of me to verify, so taking it on faith that that is the verbatim rule. It states the vehicle must move at least its Combat Speed. Unless the vehicle has a Combat Speed of 0 or less, you cannot declare a move of 0.
Please explain to me how a tank pivots while off the board in order to move onto the board and tank shock.
Tank Shock is just something you can declare before moving.
Here's the rules and the underlined portion.
TANK SHOCK
To perform a Tank Shock, first, turn the vehicle on the spot to face the direction you intend to move it and, after pre-measuring, declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move, up to its maximum speed. The vehicle must move at least Combat Speed. Note that, because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a Tank Shock.
Once the Tank has been ‘aimed’ and the intended distance declared, move the Tank straight forwards until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared – no other changes of direction are allowed in a Tank Shock.
A Tank Shock is an exception to the rule that enemy models cannot be moved through. Remember, though, that friendly models still cannot be moved through, so the Tank’s movement will be stopped if any friendly models are in the way. Also, a Tank Shock cannot be attempted against enemies that are locked in combat, as the risk of harming allies is too high.
If an enemy unit other than another vehicle is reached, that enemy unit must take a Morale check and immediately Fall Back if it fails. If the test is passed, the unit simply lets the Tank move through, as if it was not there. Regardless of the result of the test, the Tank keeps moving straight on, possibly Tank Shocking more enemy units until it reaches its final position. If the Tank would move into contact with a friendly model, enemy vehicle, impassable terrain or a board edge, it immediately stops moving 1" away.
If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position (it makes no difference whether the unit is Falling Back or not), these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle whilst maintaining unit coherency and staying on the board. Any models that cannot manage this are crushed and removed from play as casualties with no saves allowed. Crunch!
Tank Shock
Tank Shock from Reserve
A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from Reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board.
You have to declare that it is tank shocking before it moves onto the board. Then you follow the rules for deep strike.
This is the problem the underlined portion, they move you don't. They have to move as your tank shocking them.
So the order is :
Declare a Vehicle is tanking shocking.
Move it onto the board.
?????
It's not a mishap at all though because it's a Tank Shocking Vehicle.
Let me put it another way.
Here's the scenario: You have a Landraider off board, Your opponent has a line of models at your board edge. Can you tank shock through them? Why or Why not?
Psienesis wrote:Does the vehicle have a Combat Speed of less than or equal to 0?
Doesn't matter. However far it moves, it counts as moving at Combat Speed because it Deep Struck.
Does matter if this is the actual rule:
To perform a Tank Shock, first, turn the vehicle on the spot to face the direction you intend to move it and, after pre-measuring, declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move, up to its maximum speed. The vehicle must move at least Combat Speed. Note that, because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a Tank Shock.
Don't have the book in front of me to verify, so taking it on faith that that is the verbatim rule. It states the vehicle must move at least its Combat Speed. Unless the vehicle has a Combat Speed of 0 or less, you cannot declare a move of 0.
Deep Striking vehicles move at Combat Speed. They are not considered stationary. 0 is actually a answer because you can say it moves at combat speed. There's nothing that I can find that states " Combat Speed is 0.1 Inches to 6 inches".
Here's another scenario, you decide you tank shock. You don't place it on a unit but it is still tank shocking, and it scatters onto a unit does that unit get tank shocked?
Combat Speed is a specified speed for the vehicle (generally 6", iirc, for ground vehicles). If you only move 3", you're not moving at Combat Speed (unless you are in a really slow vehicle). Actually, IIRC, DS counts as Moving at Cruising Speed... but that might be a hold-over memory from a previous Edition.
Here's another scenario, you decide you tank shock. You don't place it on a unit but it is still tank shocking, and it scatters onto a unit does that unit get tank shocked?
No, as it satisfies none of the rules for Tank Shocking. You didn't pivot to face your direction of Scatter (as that is determined randomly), you didn't declare the intention to move the distance of Scatter (as that, too, is determined randomly) and, lastly, if the unit passes its test, and moves out of the way, how do you determine how far into the terrain this air-dropping vehicle buries its nose?
Here's the scenario: You have a Landraider off board, Your opponent has a line of models at your board edge. Can you tank shock through them? Why or Why not?
Yes, because:
A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from Reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board
So you park the LR (in this case) at the board edge those fools are standing on. You declare your movement distance (let's say 6") and drive forward over these fools from the edge of the board (because Tank Shock tells us we can ignore the rule about moving through enemy units). They make the Morale test. They pass, but because of terrain, 4 of them can't remain in coherency and would end up under the LR, and so get squished. The LR rolls on to the limit of the 6" declared movement. There's no other units in the area, so no one else needs to test. The rest of the unit you just drove over remain in coherency at the board edge where they started, provided they follow the other rules with Tank Shocking for not being within 1" of the tank.
Then, they assault your rear armor their next Turn and blow your LR away with a meltabomb and bayonets, but that's besides the point.
The model is never on the table to create the tank shock. If the model cannot be placed due to models it mishaps and is not placed. The first placement of the model is nothing more than a marker which is then moved via scatter. It's the exact reason skimmers still mishap.
Tank Shocking from Reserves tells us it doesn't need to be on the table...
... unless you mean DSing a tank on top of models, then I would agree that you cant TS, because of that reason as well. Also because it can only move in one direction, which in this case is straight down.
Hollismason wrote: You have to resolve the deep strike first. Just as you would resolve moving a unit onto the board.
This is incorrect. If you are tank shocking on from reserve, you don't get to move the vehicle and then also make the tank shock. The movement on is your tank shock.
Doing it from Deep Strike would be the same.
By your logic then you cannot in fact tank shock from reserve, which you in fact can.
To perform a Tank Shock, first, turn the vehicle on the spot to face the direction you intend to move it and, after pre-measuring, declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move, up to its maximum speed. The vehicle must move at least Combat Speed. Note that, because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a Tank Shock.
Don't have the book in front of me to verify, so taking it on faith that that is the verbatim rule. It states the vehicle must move at least its Combat Speed. Unless the vehicle has a Combat Speed of 0 or less, you cannot declare a move of 0.
The vehicle's Combat Speed is irrelevant, because the Deep Strike rules say that you count as having moved at Combat Speed. How far the vehicle actually moved is irrelevant.
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Hollismason wrote: Please explain to me how a tank pivots while off the board in order to move onto the board and tank shock..
Looking at deep strike rules. If your deep strike would come into contact with models it looks like you'd be rolling on the mishap table and not deep striking at all.
I just want to say that I think it would be awesome if it actually worked that way. It should work that way. It "makes sense" for it to work that way. Anyone who has played Dawn of War knows it works that way.
That being said, I'm not sure if the rules allow it.
The spinnoff of this is do you have to worry about scattering onto models with a Skimmer during DS? That one I think has a better RAW argument. It clearly states in the rules to simply move a skimmer back the appropriate distance if it is "forced" to move onto friendly/enemy models, and I'm pretty sure the only way to ever force a Skimmer to do so would be via DS.
insaniak wrote: I already covered that. You need to add a rule in order for it to actually work.
The rules already in place here look at this order and tell me if you don't agree with it or put a order of events that disallow it.
I have a Venom in reserve w/ the required wargear (Actual Verbatim Rules are italicized)
I roll for reserves
I pick the venom
I declare it's Tank Shocking
Tank Shock from Reserve
A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from Reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board.
It is now tank shocking.
I move it onto the board with deep strike because as you can see from the underlined it has to be moved onto the board after you declare it is tank shocking.
I use deep strike:
Deep Strike Rules
Mishaps:
These are negated by the following rules from Tank Shock :
A Tank Shock is an exception to the rule that enemy models cannot be moved through. Remember, though, that friendly models still cannot be moved through, so the Tank’s movement will be stopped if any friendly models are in the way.
If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position (it makes no difference whether the unit is Falling Back or not), these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle whilst maintaining unit coherency and staying on the board. Any models that cannot manage this are crushed and removed from play as casualties with no saves allowed. Crunch!
It's tank shocking so those rules apply when it is moving.
I declare it's facing per the Tank Shock rules and declare 0 , it has reached it's destination and it has moved at combat speed which meets this requirement.
Once the Tank has been ‘aimed’ and the intended distance declared, move the Tank straight forwards until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared
That's if it hits.
It it scatters onto a unit same thing.
It's a Tank Shocking Deep Striker.
Show me another sequence of events that does not follow that sequence that still allows a vehicle that is in NORMAL reserve to tank shock because the order is the same.
1. I have a normal tank in reserve
2. There is a unit at my board edge
3. I declare it is tank shocking
4. I move it on board.
5. I declare it's direction while moving it on board.
Otherwise by your logic that sequence of events does not work, but we know it does because we know that Tank shock allows you to move through Enemy units and if you end your move on top of them they have to be placed at least 1 inch away and can be tank shocked again
Hollismason wrote: I have a Venom in reserve w/ the required wargear (Actual Verbatim Rules are italicized)
I roll for reserves
I pick the venom
I declare it's Tank Shocking
Tank Shock from Reserve
A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from Reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board.
It is now tank shocking.
I move it onto the board with deep strike because as you can see from the underlined it has to be moved onto the board after you declare it is tank shocking.
You missed the step where you have to turn it to face the way that it is going to move.
Otherwise by your logic that sequence of events does not work, ...
That's correct. As I already pointed out, the rules say that a vehicle can tank shock from reserves, but give us no way within the rules to actually do so.
That's actually not the first step as has been stated I mean it's there in black and white, I dunno how you can refute the actual words without getting into a semantic argument over the actual word move.Tank Shock absolutely covers instances where you move through enemy units and enemy units you did not intend to move through as well as ending your move on top of enemy units. All of which cover those rules.The only disallowance for tank shock is it has to move in a straight line and it has to move at least combat speed up to 6 " which would in fact be 0 to 6.You're method breaks the sequence of events and goes against RAW directly by stating that the model is pivoted first, but it's not pivoted first when it tank shocks from reserve, it moves onto the board declares it's pivot and distance then proceeds. It's still tank shocking when it's declared it's always tank shocking it never stops then starts to tank shock and that fundamentally is why I think RAW it works.
There is a preponderance of evidence in my favour. I have first hand written documentation and the sequence of events layed out in written form.
You just say " It doesn't work" with actual little evidence. It's not my job to prove I can't do something, it's my job to prove that you can't say I can't do something.
Hollismason wrote: That's actually not the first step as has been stated I mean it's there in black and white, I dunno how you can refute the actual words without getting into a semantic argument over the actual word move.
The fact that it says '..., first turn the vehicle on the spot...' suggests that it kind of is the first step.
...but it's not pivoted first when it tank shocks from reserve, it moves onto the board first then follows those rules.
What are you basing that on?
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Hollismason wrote: You just say " It doesn't work" with actual little evidence.
I'm saying it doesn't work because you're skipping the first thing that the tank shock rules tell you to do, with no rule in evidence to actually tell you to skip that step.
Hollismason wrote: That's actually not the first step as has been stated I mean it's there in black and white, I dunno how you can refute the actual words without getting into a semantic argument over the actual word move.
The fact that it says '..., first turn the vehicle on the spot...' suggests that it kind of is the first step.
...but it's not pivoted first when it tank shocks from reserve, it moves onto the board first then follows those rules.
What are you basing that on?
When a unit tank shocks from reserve it has to be declared that it is tank shocking then move onto the board. The sequence of events changes if the vehicle is coming in from reserve.
A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from Reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board.
Also here's the big one : There's no rule that states it has to be on the board when it pivots at all.
So yeah that's why it is actually allowed. If I have a Tank offboard on a chair and I say it's tank shocking I can physically turn that tank in the direction I want it to go in when I move onto the board. The only rule is it has to follow a straight line and distance I declare
To perform a Tank Shock, first, turn the vehicle on the spot to face the direction you intend to move it and, after pre-measuring, declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move, up to its maximum speed. The vehicle must move at least Combat Speed. Note that, because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a Tank Shock.
Once the Tank has been ‘aimed’ and the intended distance declared, move the Tank straight forwards until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared – no other changes of direction are allowed in a Tank Shock.
No where in there does it say it has to be on the board. If I set up a tank on the edge or on a chair the only thing I have to follow is the facing and the inches moved when it moves onto the board from reserves. It simply states Pivot the model and declare the inches. Then move it.
Hollismason wrote: When a unit tank shocks from reserve it has to be declared that it is tank shocking then move onto the board. The sequence of events changes if the vehicle is coming in from reserve.
Why?
A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from Reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board.
And? That's exactly the same as what happens when you declare a tank shock with a vehicle that is already on the board... You have to declare it before the vehicle moves.
You can't pivot something that's not on the board,
That's correct. And why I pointed out that tank shocking from reserves isn't actually possible as the rules currently stand.
...there for it has to be on the board or coming onto the board then pivots even it if is like a millimeter of it's hull.
Except that there is no rule telling you that you can do something else (in this case, move onto the board) before doing the thing that the tank shock rules tell you to do first (ie: turn the vehicle to face the direction it is intending to go).
Moving just onto the board and then pivoting would be one way to resolve it. As would 'placing' the vehicle just off the board and pointing out the direction it is going to move when it comes on. Neither of those options are actually present in the rules, though.
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Hollismason wrote: The only rule is it has to follow a straight line and distance I declare
Unless your chair is the same height as the table, that's going to cause some problems when it comes time to actually move it.
Although I suppose it might be handy if your opponent has left some of his units on the floor.
Edit: You're also opening a big 'ol can of worms with the 'nothing says it has to be on the table' argument. There are any number of things that could be applied to. Like, say, shooting with my Ordnance Barrage from reserve... because nothing says it has to be on the table. So as long as my miniatures case is close enough to the table, they should be good to go, no?
Ignore that can't please that was a mistype and it is late.
You absolutely can pivot it before it moves onto the board. Let me go dig up the reserves rules.
Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
This rule is that allows Flyers to come in at a angle instead of having to move onto the board straight then pivot, something that is incredibly important as if they had to pivot you would not be able to make that last turn, let me know if that clears things up.
I actually think this is in the flyers section as well.
So you absolutely can say I declare this tank is Tank Shocking from reserve, pivot it then move it onto the board which applies as well for a deep striking unit.
That's why I like you Insaniak you always are fun to go back and forth with as it pushes me to explore the rules even further.
I'm pretty sure that statement clears things up. Let me know if it doesn't.
Wait no it doesn't you actually would have to declare infinite ? This got weird fast.
This is a non argument. If you deepstrike onto a target you automatically mishap. You don't take shock anything. The mishap happens first before the movement phase even beings, which automatically causes you to leave that spot you picked. Tank shocking isn't some get out of mishap free card.
Hollismason wrote: This rule is that allows Flyers to come in at a angle instead of having to move onto the board straight then pivot,
Flyers are allowed to come on at an angle because nothing says that they have to come on perpendicular to the board edge. Not because you perform an imaginary pivot just off the table. That woudl actually limit the angle at which flyers would be able to move on, rather than allowing them a free angle of entry.
So you absolutely can say I declare this tank is Tank Shocking from reserve, pivot it then move it onto the board which applies as well for a deep striking unit.
Aside from the fact that the tank is not physically placed in order to pivot it, sure. You don't pivot the tank before moving on from the board edge. You just move on as if the tank was there.
And this still doesn't help you with deep striking, because you still have to break the tank shock process in order to perform the deep strike placement.
Hollismason wrote: This rule is that allows Flyers to come in at a angle instead of having to move onto the board straight then pivot,
Flyers are allowed to come on at an angle because nothing says that they have to come on perpendicular to the board edge. Not because you perform an imaginary pivot just off the table. That woudl actually limit the angle at which flyers would be able to move on, rather than allowing them a free angle of entry.
So you absolutely can say I declare this tank is Tank Shocking from reserve, pivot it then move it onto the board which applies as well for a deep striking unit.
Aside from the fact that the tank is not physically placed in order to pivot it, sure. You don't pivot the tank before moving on from the board edge. You just move on as if the tank was there.
And this still doesn't help you with deep striking, because you still have to break the tank shock process in order to perform the deep strike placement.
I just literally quoted the reserve rules that states how a vehicle moves on from reserve, it's treated as
Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
There's also no rule that states, it has to be on the board to pivot. Otherwise by your sequence of events a tank moves always at a straight angle directly onto the board and cannot under any circumstance tank shock where as my way does allow it to adhere to the rules and doesn't BREAK any rules.
That's the key issue here, your way breaks the rules, I've shown explicitly that a vehicle can tank shock with the rules as is with no unnecessary rules.
The only rule for tank shock is it has to move at combat speed, the direction it's pivoted in and has to follow a straight line.
Also this applies to fliers as well, there is no actual rule that states you get a free pivot with a flier when moving it on from reserves at a angle, there is no special rule for flying in at a angle then pivoting, something that is incredily common
So following your logic all vehicles must first enter the battle field be on the field then Pivot and move in a direction yet we know specifically this is not the case.
Hollismason wrote: I just literally quoted the reserve rules that states how a vehicle moves on from reserve,
Yes, you did. There was nothing in there about performing an imaginary pivot with a model that hasn't yet been placed.
You just move on from the edge as if the model was sitting just off the board. No pivoting involved.
There's also no rule that states, it has to be on the board to pivot.
More to the point, though, is that there is no way to pivot a vehicle to face the direction it wants to go if that vehicle is not yet actually 'in play'.
The facing of your models is completely irrelevant until they are actually on the board.
Otherwise by your sequence of events a tank moves always at a straight angle directly onto the board...
Please quote the rule that requires you to move on perpendicular to the board edge.
... where as my way does allow it to adhere to the rules and doesn't BREAK any rules.
Except for the one that requires you to pivot the vehicle to face the direction it is going to move.
Insaniak may I ask HYWPI, with regards to tank shock from reserve and tank shock from deep strike? Allow both? Disallow both? Allow one but not the other?
Just curious about how you would apply your rules interpretation to play.
*note I am not making a RAW argument or any other argument.
You cant ever tankshock from deepstrike, as you cannot nominate a distance in inches to mvoe (you only count as moving Combat, not any specific distance, meaning 0 is not valid) and if you actually scattered onto any unit capable of being tank shocked, you mishap before you arrive which is before you have moved at all.
Drager wrote: Insaniak may I ask HYWPI, with regards to tank shock from reserve and tank shock from deep strike? Allow both? Disallow both? Allow one but not the other?
I would probably allow both. From regular reserves simply because the rules are quite clear that it's supposed to be allowed, and from Deep Striking just because it sounds like fun and is unlikely to be a game-breaker... Deep Striking Raiders into the middle of enemy units seems like a fairly surefire suicide technique, and Blood Angels Land Raiders are rarely seen on the table due to their flyers being so much of a better option, and I would be very surprised if their ability to Deep Strike makes it into the next codex anyway.
Insaniak - how are you resolving the deepstrike, when before the model arrives (whcih is the point at which you determine if the unit has been tank shocked; you cannot tank shock a unit if you have yet to arrive, as you havent fulfilled the requirement to actually move into the unit) any unit it "contacts" forces a mishap, which will at best result in the DS unit returning to reserves?
I am with Nosferatu1001, Tank Shock clearly requires Movement and Resolving the Arriving via Deep Strike Sequence is not Movement in and of itself. Unlike the other Reserve Rules, which contain instructions to Move the Model as part of the process, Deep Strike simply requires the Models to be placed with a specific formation after determining if they will Mishap. I would even go as far to state that Deep Strike contains zero instructions related to Moving the Model, as it requires two clauses to create the very same effect that Movement would create by default.
These two Restrictions would not exist if the Arriving via Deep Striking process was itself Movement.
Drager wrote: Insaniak may I ask HYWPI, with regards to tank shock from reserve and tank shock from deep strike? Allow both? Disallow both? Allow one but not the other?
I would probably allow both. From regular reserves simply because the rules are quite clear that it's supposed to be allowed, and from Deep Striking just because it sounds like fun and is unlikely to be a game-breaker... Deep Striking Raiders into the middle of enemy units seems like a fairly surefire suicide technique, and Blood Angels Land Raiders are rarely seen on the table due to their flyers being so much of a better option, and I would be very surprised if their ability to Deep Strike makes it into the next codex anyway.
I think this is interesting
• • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
I gotta go to work but I kind of think this is important as you'll note that you pick the direction you wish to face. Also, the actual placement.
Another thing a Pivot is not actually required to deep strike a direction is.
Secondly the "it" in the first sentence is the *unit*, ie the first model placed is a marker to where you want the unt to arrive. The unit has not yet arrived - it cannot have done, otherwise this sentence is a nonsense (and would result in a unit half on, half off the board. A nonsense)
How are you getting around never being able to determine if you Tank Shock a unit, as you will always mishap first? You can NEVER tank shock a unit from DS without some way to bypass mishap, as mishap occurs first.
deep strike is a method of deployment, not movement so you may count as moving but you haven't moved in any direction on the table.
tank shock does not give permission to ignore rules for deployment and being within 1" of an enemy model/impassable terrain so you mishap before you would even make it to a "tank shock" step. Tank shock gives permission to ignore being within 1" of an enemy model during the tank shock part of the move which is measure from where the model is to its final point. where is the final point after deep striking when you are not allowed to move any further?
if you didn't mishap you still then have the issue of having no movement to actually tank shock with.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Insaniak - how are you resolving the deepstrike, when before the model arrives (whcih is the point at which you determine if the unit has been tank shocked; you cannot tank shock a unit if you have yet to arrive, as you havent fulfilled the requirement to actually move into the unit) any unit it "contacts" forces a mishap, which will at best result in the DS unit returning to reserves?
I would scatter the deep striking vehicle as normal, and resolve the tank shock with the vehicle's final landing location.
HawaiiMatt wrote: I think the mishap rule covers it all.
Did one model land partially or fully on top of, or within 1" of an enemy model?
If so, mishap.
Sure, tank shocked models are moved out of the way after the unit ends on top of them, but it still land on a model (who was then later moved).
At best, you could deep strike onto an enemy, declare a tank shock, force an Ld test, and then roll the mishap.
Excepting that a tank shocking vehicle has a specific rule that states you can end your move on top of a enemy model. Every scenario is actually covered. I'll have to get home but I believe I already answered this.
Deep Strike is actually movement. It states that the vehicle is counting as moved at combat speed.
All the relevant rules questions , the one that INSANIAK brings up is that the statement FIRST YOU, precedes the move, where as I believe that it states clearly that you actually Declare tank shock Pivot it or declare it's pivot premeasure , then declare the distance, then follow the rules for deep strike with the addage that Tank Shock allows it to land on top of a unit.
Hollismason wrote: ..., where as I believe that it states clearly that you actually Declare tank shock Pivot it or declare it's pivot premeasure , ....
The rules say nothing about 'declaring' a pivot. They just tell you to turn the model in the direction it is going to go.
For RAW, you simply can't get around the requirement to have a model physically present on the table at the time you declare the tank shock, as there is no rule that allows you to skip this step.
The rules say nothing about 'declaring' a pivot. They just tell you to turn the model in the direction it is going to go.
So your interpretation requires a vehicle to always pivot at least some before Tank Shocking then? No vehicle can ever Tank Shock in the direction it was already facing?
There are a couple of things here that should be addressed.
1. A vehicle that is stationary moves nil, pg 73. While one that moves at combat speed is up to 6", pg 73. Therefor the model must move between >0" and 6" to move combat speed. You must move at that speed to Tank Shock. How are you moving it forward that speed? If you are just sitting there are you tank shocking?
2. The model is not on the board till after deployment. Mishaps happen before deployment, pg 162. How are there models under the Tank Shocking model?
3. One can only Tank Shock instead of moving normally, pg 92. Is deploying via Deep Strike considered to be moving normally?
DarknessEternal wrote: So your interpretation requires a vehicle to always pivot at least some before Tank Shocking then? No vehicle can ever Tank Shock in the direction it was already facing?
No, my interpretation requires there to be a vehicle in play to be turned to face its target.
There is functionally no difference between turning the tank 360 degrees and just not bothering to turn it. You can spin the tank all the way around if it makes you feel better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gravmyr wrote: ... Therefor the model must move between >0" and 6" to move combat speed.
Unless there is a special rule in play that counts it as having moved at combat speed. Such as with deep strike.
The question then becomes - does the fact that it is counted as having moved at combat speed actually satisfy the tank shock requirement to move at combat speed?
Which is debateable, but I'm leaning towards 'no'... The vehicle never actually moves at combat speed. It is just counted as having done so once it has arrived.
It is counted as having done so during the Shooting Phase: In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. Vehicles, except for Walkers, count as having moved at Combat Speed (even Immobilised vehicles). This can affect the number of weapons they can fire with their full Ballistic Skill Why do people keep ignoring this little inconvenient fact?
There is also this little one too: When moving a vehicle with the Tank type, the player can declare that it is going to attempt to Tank Shock or Ram instead of moving normally. If you are not making a "normal" movement to begin with, how are you going to evoke a Rule which allows you to substitute a Tank Shock / Ram for your normal movement?
JinxDragon wrote: If you are not making a "normal" movement to begin with, how are you going to evoke a Rule which allows you to substitute a Tank Shock / Ram for your normal movement?
The same way you invoke any rule that replaces shooting on models that don't have a ranged weapon?
Gravmyr wrote: That model still has the ability to shoot just not a weapon that can be fired....
Just as the deep striking vehicle has the ability to move normally... it just isn't doing so right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This, however...
JinxDragon wrote: It is counted as having done so during the Shooting Phase:
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. Vehicles, except for Walkers, count as having moved at Combat Speed (even Immobilised vehicles). This can affect the number of weapons they can fire with their full Ballistic Skill Why do people keep ignoring this little inconvenient fact?
...is the final nail on the deep striking tank shock coffin, though. It seems we've all been taking the sentence that tells us it moved at combat speed in isolation. When you put the preceeding statement there, suddenly the context is quite clearly specifically the shooting phase. So there is no way we can count the vehicle as moving at combat speed to satisfy the condition of tank shock... even if you could get past the pivot step with a vehicle that isn't yet on the table.
Sure, the Model has the ability to Move but until it Evokes permission to does not meet the requirements to Evoke this Rule.
After completely Resolving the Deep Strike Rule, as the core concept of Sequencing prevents us resolving two Rules simultaneous, we encounter a Restriction preventing any further movement. It exists to remove one line of permission from the Movement Phase itself, which is why the Restriction is found in a paragraph that starts: In the Movement Phase. That line is obviously: You can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance and without it there is no longer permission to move a Model within that Unit.
Therefore, without a more specific Rule stating that Deep Strike allows access to alternative Movement related Rules, we simply do not have permission to Move the Model till after the Rule restricting Movement is already in play. As the only other thing that relates to Movement within the Rule is a 'count as' Clause for the Shooting Phase, it is going to be difficult to prove that this Rule allows other Rules to trigger at all, let alone simultaneously trigger. While the counter argument simply points to the very existence of these two clauses as evidence, as they they would not need to exist at all if Deep Strike was Movement. The Unit would already be bound by Restrictions preventing it from being nominated for further movement and would already trigger Weapon related clauses when it comes to Shooting.
Besides, there is this large flaw in the concept too: If Deep Strike is considered 'normal movement' for the purpose of Tank Shock And Tank Shock is done instead of normal Movement Where is permission to Deep strike and Tank Shock?
One is done instead of the other, so it would need to be a choice between the two... well, if it wasn't for the Must clause within the Deep Strike Rule...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Insaniak, I will state this, the Rule interactions involved in combining these two situations are wonderful and thank you for keeping me up all night worrying over them. If Deep Strike is ever proven to be 'normal movement' for the purposes of the Tank Shock Rule, or really movement for the purposes of any Rule outside the Shooting Phase clause, then we will have a massive knot on our hands. If I could give you a picture of the flow charts my mind is creating right now it would be terrifying. Jotting the default Rule then the parts which get over written, then the entire thing being over written by Tank Shock, only to have Tank Shock refer back to Arrival with no detail on if that is Arrival by default or the massive re-written Arrival rules created by several previous modifications!
Glorious Rule interactions indeed, now I have to try and force myself to sleep. Rule debates do not put food on the table, though they do indicate Game Workshop should consider paying a good Editor.
Jinxdragon I kind of always know when you have free time, I think we're on the same schedule. Cause I'll be like, huh 4 new posts in YMDC, and come in and like 4 threads will have been posted.
Also I posted this in response to the other thread but I'll repost it here
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one. <- this directly implies that it is movement by stating it cannot move anyfurther than where you place it
Here's a bunch of relevant passages to catch people up if their reading the thread I posted these in the skimmer thread.
Then you have this in the movement phase:
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
Which implies movement other than just humdrum movement is still movement it's just explained later.
Then you've got this from the Vehicle Section:
• Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.
Then you've got this from the actual rules for reserve
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Insaniak - how are you resolving the deepstrike, when before the model arrives (whcih is the point at which you determine if the unit has been tank shocked; you cannot tank shock a unit if you have yet to arrive, as you havent fulfilled the requirement to actually move into the unit) any unit it "contacts" forces a mishap, which will at best result in the DS unit returning to reserves?
I would scatter the deep striking vehicle as normal, and resolve the tank shock with the vehicle's final landing location.
It doesn't arrive until after you check for mishap; meaning it will ALWAYS mishap before you can determine if it has tank shocked any unit.
Actually if you read the rules for Reserves and how you are suppose to move them onto the board, it's perfectly clear for me at least that you can do it because we have specifically been ignoring a specific key part of moving onto the board from reserve.
This one:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move. Moving On From Reserve
1. When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge.
Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. This is where Deep Strike interrupts
Deep Strike though has a different method for placing them onto the board so the second part doesn't work..
It literally states that a unit arriving from reserve should be placed at the board edge. Then follow it's movement rules, it's movement rule is to deep strike though so you then reposition it, but it is still Tank Shocking so it is allowed to be placed on top of models as it can end it's move on top of models due to the tank shock rules.
No, IF it would end up on top of models, it moves them out of the way. First it has to finish moving.
You have at least 3 problems:
1) You do not count as moving combat until shooting. Meaning you cannot declare 0" as you will, in fact, not have moved Combat Speed or greater.
2) YOu do not move anything until you have finished arriving by deepstrike, whcih is after you check for mishap.
3) You havent actually arrived until after you check for mishap. Mishap interrupts the process before completion, meaning you have NOT arrived by deepstrike as yet, meaning you have not yet moved.
nosferatu1001 wrote: It doesn't arrive until after you check for mishap; meaning it will ALWAYS mishap before you can determine if it has tank shocked any unit.
Yup. That was talking about how I would choose to play it, not RAW.
Hollismason, The inclusion of the word further is completely meaningless from a Rule as Written perspective, to repost: If we where grading Game Worship on the perfect use of syntax and grammar then maybe that inclusion of the word "further" would have been relevant. However, as we know this company has already played fast and loose with the English language in the past, the inclusion of this one word is not enough to dramatically change the possible meanings behind that single sentence. Given that it really is a Language Debate, which the forum has Tenets against as language is very flexible depending on location and personal interpretations, I'm going to counter that a restriction on Moving 'to a greater distance' can still be applied to a Model which has not Moved, as 1 Inch is a greater distance then 0 Inches.
From a Rule perspective: There is no reason to have a Restriction preventing the Unit from 'moving further' if it had already Moved, as the default method of movement involves selecting a Unit that has yet to complete a Move that turn. There is no need to state that it counts as having Moved in the following Shooting phase, as it would have actually Moved instead.
So the question remains: Has a Unit Moved if it does not utilize any of the Movement related Rules and the Rule does not specifically state that it is Movement or contain instructions stating to move the model?
The default instructions for Arriving from Reserves state to place the model and then move them from their current location. Deep Strike instructions simply state to place the model in the location indicated by the scatter and remain there, restricted from any further movement.
Including the word further doesn't suddenly make that placement into movement, that requires the instructions within the Deep Strike Special Rule to state we are moving the Model. As the Unit has yet to make any motion that is considered movement by the Rules, it would be entirely possible to select that Unit and then Move them. Had it considered to have Moved prior to that selection it would no longer be legal to select that Unit to move them in any case. That is why the restriction exists, and it's inclusion of the word further doesn't simply make it's existence redundant. It still is a Restriction pointed at a very specific line within the basic Movement Rules, granting a model the ability to move up to their maximum distance.
It is simply a poorly chosen word from a company that has a history of choosing words poorly and without actual instructions to move... meaningless.
Simple question: If a Model moves 0 inches from where it is placed, not even pivoting which we know does not trigger movement related Rules, and nothing states it has actually moved. How do you prove it has moved?
Jinxdragon , it really seems like that this conversation has gotten lost in the weeds completely.
Let's step back and just look at the specific way units enter play and whether that is movement. So let's remove everything from the equation but a unit Deep Striking let's also remove mishap because we don't need to discuss that just yet.
So first what happens?
We pick a unit to arrive from reserves.
We roll for reserves.
We then have to move that model onto the board correct?
That's movement.
First it's occuring in the movement phase, which clearly states this is when models generally are allowed to move.
Then we have the statement of the actual rule itself that states it cannot move any further.
Now let's look at the other option : Does it count as moving.
Here's a question then:
If you deepstrike a unit with a heavy weapon, does it snap fire?
If this statement was the only statement made, ignore all other statements, don't quote them just assume that the rest about shooting phase etc.. does not exist and assume this is the only sentence that's there and answer that question.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.
So let's play pretend and just accept that sentence is the only one. Can we answer that question?
That's the argument presented against it but two rules come into play, the Skimmer rules and the Tank Shock rules themselves. Both which affect this situation, right now the argument is over where Deep Strike is a movement and you are in fact ending your movement with final placement.
This one is tough... Because Hollis is (IMO) correct, you DO have to move the model from off the board onto it and it states that it counts as moving at combat speed. All the while you are invoking a rule that specifically allows you to place your model amongst another unit outside of normal rules (tank shock). Invoking that rule *should* take care of the mishap. So to break it down in my interpretation (note that this is assuming you either WWPed in or rolled a Hit on scatter and you chose to arrive directly within an enemy unit)-
-We have a rule that allows us to tank shock from reserves
-Moving from off the table onto it is in theory movement
-Since we dont typically move distances in the Z axis the Deep Strike rule assigned us a distance "moved" (combat speed)
-You can technically say any number up to the vehicles combat speed, as you are moving vertically
-Pivoting has no relevance as you are already "aimed" when you come in, or if you prefer a visual element, helos when landing in "hot" LZs for recovery of personnel will come in at an extreme angle and whip the nose up at the last second. Imagine this, but with chain snares and it works.
-Landing in the middle of a unit is not a "mishap" as we have invoked a rule that specifically permits us to end movement on top of an enemy unit
-Tank shock as normal
I personally would never do this as it is opening the door to entirely too much arguing and 40k has plenty of that as it is, but from what i can tell it works
Hollismason,
I will review this over the weekend, not in the right mind now, but I see the one section in the rules which would be interesting to poke at in the very least.
I've clearly stated the rules on why it would not mishap because you are ending your move onto a model. Take it to there if you can come up with it but special rules override other special rules.
Hollismason wrote: I've clearly stated the rules on why it would not mishap because you are ending your move onto a model. Take it to there if you can come up with it but special rules override other special rules.
That's a core part of the system.
Except until you resolve Deep Strike you have not finished moving. Mishap occurs before the model has ended its move.
It doesn't matter if you have finished moving or if it's the end of your move , during your move if you come into contact with a unit you're tank shocking , you tank shock them and they get placed 1inch away and take the test.
At any point during a vehicles tank shock except for pivoting, that vehicle comes in contact with a model other than a Vehicle or a piece of Terrain it tank shocks it.
I'd feel bad again for reposting so much of the rules, but I literally posted the tank shock rules 2 pages ago.
Also I am going to accept your use of the word moving to infer that you do believe deep striking is movement unless you state otherwise or would like to rephrase, if not then please review my previous post in regards to this question.
Insaniak says it's not really possible or quasipossible because you can't obey the tank shock rules because you have to First Pivot, but that doesn't make sense because you can do it from reserve and then you've created a weird logic loop of Catch 22 style where you have to be on the board to pivot to tank shock but your not on the board and have to declare before your on the board. RAI or HIWPI - thinks you can but does not agree RAW
JinxDragon - His argument is that it is not in fact movement at all , that deep strike unto itself is not movement. Does not agree RAW that it is movement.
My Argument - RAW Deep Strike is movement. . and you are able to select it because the rules give you permission to tank shock from reserve.
I do believe that Deep Strike is and of itself is Movement. The scatter of the unit, however, is not movement.
Holismason, let me ask you this.
We can safely assume that the pivot in and of itself is not necessarily necessary. Otherwise, as Insaniak pointed out you would not be able to Tank Shock from Reserves.
How many inches are you declaring? Are you moving the tank straight forward?
Then you agree that a vehicle moving in from deep strike or reserve can tank shock.
No one is discussing or arguing that the Scatter is movment. I don't argue that or contend that scatter is in fact movement. No one is arguing that it creates a Tank Shocking path along it's scatter line because it does not.
My statement is this if you deep strike it counts as movement, if it is tank shocking the rules of tank shock apply to its movement and on it's physical placement if it comes into contact with another unit it does not in fact mishap but instead Tank Shocks that unit.
It not only makes sense from a "thematic" or RAI sense : A giant tank is literally falling on top of you.
RAW it works.
HIWPI - I would indeed play it this way because it is awesome.
edit:
Actually I'll add the caveat that reading per the rules in regards to model placement, in the beginning of the book. You can not in fact place that model on top of a squad, in fact the only way to get the tank shock affect is if the model is placed at least 1 inch away and then scatters on top of a unit.
First turn the vehicle on the spot to face the direction you intend to move it.
I think we can safely assume that the pivot is not necessarily necessary. Otherwise, as Insaniak pointed out you would not be able to Tank Shock from Reserves.
Declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move, up to its maximum speed.
How many inches are you declaring?
Move the Tank straight forwards until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or reaches the distance declared.
It's kind of irrelevant but you can declare 0 and move it in a straight line. It sounds weird but it is in fact perfectly legitimate choice as you've not moved it at all so there for it's not moved any direction other than straight which satisfies that because of the statement it must move in a straight line when it moves and it has moved and not moved diagonally or any other direction.
or
You can follow the actual reserve rules and the tank shock rules and it get's weird. Like Hunter S. Thompson weird, but it makes sense.
Hold on I'll use pictures. Actually I'll do that tommorow have to step out for a bit. I LEAVE YOU IN SUSPENSE!
Just declare 6 inches or whatever you want up to combat speed. You are dropping out of the sky on top of the unit... put your model 6 inches above the unit and move it vertically downward. Boom distance covered.
Hollismason wrote: It's kind of irrelevant but you can declare 0 and move it in a straight line. It sounds weird but it is in fact perfectly legitimate choice as you've not moved it at all so there for it's not moved any direction other than straight which satisfies that because of the statement it must move in a straight line when it moves and it has moved and not moved diagonally or any other direction.!
If you moved 0" did you move at least Combat Speed?
I don't have 7th, so can only offer possibilities based on what I have read here and the (oh so cynical) assumption, that most of this stuff has simply been copy pasted over from previous editions ...
The idea that deep strike is not a move is nonsensical. To dismiss "further" in the text is not RAW its RAI.
If you moved 0" did you move at least Combat Speed?
If the permission to ds immobile units into play still exists, it highlights that this is not reliable.
Something that cannot move at all moves at "X" speed when it is deployed, despite that speed not being quantifiable in inches.
The way I would have argued this in the past, would be to state that placement of a (marker) model is not movement, scatter is moving the marker (as opposed to the unit) and so is not movement in that sense. A unit coming into play, is deployed by moving onto the table.
In the case of a tank coming on from a table edge, under its own power and electing to tank shock, we have a point of origin (just off the table) and therefore its move can be quantified in the terms of distance, and type, tank shock requires both.
On the other hand, ds, is deploying by movement, yet, in order for that unit to move, it has to be deployed.
The unit is deployed using (all of the) rules for deep strike, including mishaps.
If a unit scatters onto an obstacle that is described as causing mishaps, then thats what happens.
After the mishap, the unit is destroyed in which case it was never deployed = did not move.
It is displaced = did deploy and move an unquantifiable distance thataway (it was never at the point it attempted to deep strike to).
Goes back into reserve = did not deploy or move.
I think the question becomes how far can you declare to move a unit that has not deployed (in inches, required by tank shock) by using a method, that to satisfy tank shock (contact) would automatically deny you the right to move into contact because you couldn't deploy where you wanted to???
Contrast this with tank shocking from a table edge.
Can you deploy, yes by moving. Over an enemy unit, yes I have permission to move when I declare the shock. Can you measure the distance moved and declare at which speed you are moving, yes, I have a point of origin.
@Hollismason You are still trying to say you can move 0"? The BRB defines that as stationary, period. Secondly what are you giving up to move as a Tank Shock. It is done instead of moving, so if you are doing that you can't be doing something else. In this case because you would be deep striking you would need to give up the movement part of it, or as you say all of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an addendum, if you are saying the downward movement is the tank shock and I decide to death and glory the model are you going to hold it in place for the rest of the game? If it is dropping in and is destroyed via DoG, but not blown up does this leave a hovering piece of terrain the tallest model's hieght from the table? This also assumes you are coming from the sky and not teleporting in...
If the placement of the first model then the scatter is in fact done with the model and not a marker are you going to test for dangerous terrain each time? In the case of a crowded battle field it could be twice, original placement and then final position. If it fails and is immobilized at the first position do you stop there or are you going to continue the DS?
Gravmyr wrote: @Hollismason You are still trying to say you can move 0"? The BRB defines that as stationary, period.
This is false. nowhere in the rulebook does the rulebook say that moving 0" always counts as stationary. What is DOES say is that a vehicle that has only pivoted is Stationary. That is an important difference, because there are several things that count as movement in this game. Deep Striking being the example at hand which, coincidentally, counts as combat speed.
Other examples of "Moving" 0 inches:
- If any model in your unit has run, the entire unit counts as having moved in the shooting phase regardless of whether or not each model moved.
- if you roll poorly for your run move, you may choose not to run, but still count as having moved
- Difficult terrain rolls - if you roll poorly for your distance you may opt not to move at all, but you still count as having moved.
otherwise someone could declare your heavy weapons team that moved 0" inches moved, and now can only snap fire.
also tank shock doesn't give you permission to begin within 1" of an enemy model, it only gives permission to ignore being within 1" during the movement.
You can say 0 or you can say 6.
The tank itself is considered to have moved at least at Combat Speed regardless of the distance it is moving, I don't have to even state 0 I can state 6 and then declare it's final position, it just can't move any further when it lands but it has reached it's destination and not moved 6 inches. It also cannot move in a line other than straight which is also met.
Either way works because it's satisfied the requirement to 1. Name a distance. 2. Has reached it's destination.
Death or Glory : is done differently now, you just nominate a model if that model fails he dies, if that model succeeds then he's placed 1inch away from the model. Their unit is already placed 1inch away regardless.
It's early I was gonna diagram but we're getting the same questions over again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you declare 0 inches and then you move 0 inches....you didn't move. You can't tank shock out of deep strike. You can't move after deep strike
otherwise someone could declare your heavy weapons team that moved 0" inches moved, and now can only snap fire.
also tank shock doesn't give you permission to begin within 1" of an enemy model, it only gives permission to ignore being within 1" during the movement.
This is correct, in fact the main rule book disallows physically placing models on top of each other, I already stated the caveat that in fact you could not tank shock on initial placement because it's not allowed. Only if you scatter and land.
You can actually say 0 as it is moving at combat speed regardless. You could say 6 , but then deep strike states once that happens you move no further. So that actually satisfies both requirements.
You could say 6 measure it from off the board side then deep strike it onto the battlefield, which was what I was pointing out in Diagrams but didn't have time this morn as I just woke up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you declare 0 inches and then you move 0 inches....you didn't move. You can't tank shock out of deep strike. You can't move after deep strike
You absolutely did move during the deep strike as deep strike literally states that you did.
Hollismason, Before I even look at page 4 of this thread, thought I would give you the first thoughts I had on the matter once I awoke up thankful I never get hangovers.
I have been asking for a Rule which states Deep Striking is Movement and this is the one provided to me: When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.
Before I go any further with this preliminary thought, allow me to go on record for the thousandth time stating how much I despise how the Deep Strike Special Rule was Formatted. This Rule does not function well even in the vacuum it was created for, so any more complicated Rule interactions will undoubtedly causes problems. This includes interaction with the Rules governing Reserves work to begin with, it is another Rule that over-writes the entirety of a process and then informs us to use parts of the process...! This makes it very difficult to try and figure out exactly what is going on between that above sentence and the rest of the Deep Striking Special Rule, and even harder to explain the findings, because the Authors have not provided us with clear enough details on what the Rule is meant to do.
Another thing I need to do before I proceed is correct a flaw in your logic, thought it is not a fatal flaw: At no point are we resolving any Rule found within the Reserve potion of the book, throughout this entire process we are still resolving only a single Rule by the name of Deep Strike. It is not a Rule which creates a conflict inside a sequence, over-writing the individual basic Rule that makes up that step while letting the others resolve like normal, but a Rule which pinches instructions from other sections of the Rulebook while it is self-resolving. The reason I do not think it is a fatal flaw is because the above sentence still is one of the instructions that is being referenced by the Deep Strike Special Rule, the line Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves has to include the instructions on how we go about picking Units in Reserve or no Deep Striking Unit would be able to Arrive.
So on one side: We have a sentence which is clearly not being used by the Deep Strike Special Rule, -- it informs us to Move the Models using a process that can not be obeyed by Deep Striking Units
On the other side: The fact it still exists.... -- The deep Strike Rule stated to use it, so we have to use it somehow
Leaving me in the middle trying to solve this little knot: So how do we resolve this conflict, as it is now within a single Rule and not some Rule interaction that would fall under Basic Vs Advanced?!
Also, assuming Deep Strike is Movement outright, and is not reliant on 'count as' Rules for a pusdo-movement like feel: How do you ensure they Model does not violate the Restriction against moving past it's maximum allowance? Where do you even measure this Movement from, in order to prove it has not?
The secondary points that where irrelevant. - Shooting an interceptor weapon happens in the movement phase, does that mean the Enemy Unit is moving? - One of the Reserve Rules pinched by Deep Strike inform us that we must move onto the next Unit after resolving the first --- There are already restrictions against moving a Unit twice in a single Movement Phase - The Count as Clause for the shooting phase is also pointless as the normal Movement phase cover it
@Bojazz Your entire argument is that DS and infantry units, notably basically only when you decide not to move after trying to move, have instances where they are counted as having moved without moving. They each give those exceptions, that is how this game works. You do not have wording in TS that gives you such an exception. Stating that it doesn't say under Combat Speed that you have to move and you can declare 0" means that all vehicles can never fire as Stationary as they have all moved up to 6". The same can be said of infantry units as someone else pointed out.
@hollisman Again what movement are you giving up to TS in your example? What about Dangerous terrain and the positioning of the model?
@JinxDragon - This is how I see it working actually.
@Gravmyr - Read this fully.
Yeah I had quoted that in the multiple instances where it states it's movement, but yeah it creates this sequence which to me is a legitimate way to do it without breaking rules.
1. Select a Unit to move onto the Board From Reserves, you can declare this is tank shocking and use the deep strike rules.
2. According to the actual Reserve rules you are to place this unit off board, like physically it states you should do this but not if it would damage the model or you don't have an offboard.
3. As we've stated it is actually possible to pivot before coming on, so you would do that you also have to do that per the rules for Deep Strike. Declare your distance 0 - 6.
Premeasure. You'd premeasure from your board edge! Because it is technically placed offboard on your side
4. Now deep strike occurs. It can be placed beyond that 6 inch measurement from your board edge because of the deep strike rules.
5. Follow the Deep Strike rules. Remembering that it has to be a straight line forward due to tank shock.
6. If it would end it's move either due to scatter or due to rolling a hit. Remembering that if it lands on anything that is not a unit it has to be placed 1 inch away which the direction would indicate towards your board edge where it was coming on at. So it would not be placed 1 inch behind but 1 inch in front of tanks etc..
7. Here's the interesting part. If it were a skimmer and you were not tank shocking, the above would apply as well.
This is actually how deep strike physically works when playing no one does that but this is RAW how you do it.
You physically place the unit "offboard" at your table edge. Then move it onto the battlefield usingthe deep strike rules.
Before I begin, let us agree to ignore the Tank Shock nonsense and anything else irrelevant to Resolving the Deep Strike Special Rule itself so we are dealing with one problem at a time.
Problem One: Deep Strike does not inject itself into an already existing set of Rules, it is resolved in it's entity, so the Deep Strike "sequence" begins looking something like this: (I have posted each Rule so people can see the actual wording as well)
1) Evoke the Deep Strike Rule 1a) Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows 2) Roll for Each unit as per the Deep Strike Special Rule 2a) Roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve 2b) If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. 2c) When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. 3) Deply, as per the Deep Strike Special Rule
Notice how this order of resolution does not require us to start with the Reserve Rule before 'nesting' the Deep Strike within, but it simply involves using nothing but the Deep Strike Rule itself to facilitate the Arrival. There is one major headache within the above, but it is one created by the very wording of the Deep Strike Rule itself when it states as specified in the rules for Reserves. No Rule should simply state to review another section of the book without more detailed instructions as to why and how. This is in order to avoid all confusion that might come from other Rules that can interact with the same section of the book. For example, many have taken this simple instruction as reasoning to include everything Reserve related into the Deep Strike Special Rule. From a Pure Rule as Written vantage we need those definitions in order to ensure we do not over-step the intended bounds of the Rule.
So can it be agreed that, at this point in time, the only focus is really on 2c as it is the only Rule presented to show that 'Arriving from Reserves' is Movement by default?
Assuming so: Have you ever noticed it states 'When Reserves Arrive' and the Deep Strike Rule is specific to the Roll itself, not the actual Arrival? - Does this sentence actually trigger or are we both assuming it does? What about the requirement to Move as per the instructions below? - We both know those are the default Arriving instructions directly below this Rule in the book, so how do you resolve that conflict from a Rule as Written point of view?
I think that sequence of events satsifies both the rules for Reserve and the Rules for Deep Strike.
1. Select a unit in reserve.
2. Place it offboard in a nebulous region.
3. Move it onto the board via the deep strike rules.
The deep strike is the part that interupts that sequence. Do we consider a Reserve movement a normal part of the rules where a advanced rule takes precedent? I think it does as that is a "normal" sequence for reserves and Deep Strike is a special rule. So it would follow those rules of Reserve until it reached a contradiction where in the deep strike rules would apply.
So you have this
ABC order of events
Deep Strike interrupts B but still is a conitnuation
Can you please edit your post and show the exact wording of the Rules which support each individual step in your resolution?
I have done the curtsy of posting Rule Support for the concept that Deep Strike does not inject itself into other sequences, but can be Resolved entirely on it's own. .... Well, sort of, as it does steal instructions from other places but that is different then being injected into an existing sequences ....
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
1. We know previously from Reserves we have to select a unit. So I'm not reposting that.
2. We know for the portion of the rules that we roll for the arrival of deep strike according to the reserve rules.
Now the under lined portion is important it says to
and then deploy them as follows
So we know that there's a interjection because in the Reserves rules it states:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.
That underline portion is where the Deep Strike rules interject and say hold up buddy let's get in my van .
So the portion about deploying reserves is ignored, but not the rest of the rules for Reserves. Just the portion dealing with deployment of them and getting them onto the board.
Instead of simply repeating myself, by pointing out that the Deep Strike Special Rule resolves the underline section perfectly fine without needing to be 'injected' into the Reserve Sequence, I will try and show why it resolve's itself completely fine. There is a section you underlined which is very important to understanding the sentence as a whole. This is because that section informs us to deploy them as Follows: so the Rules which actually follow are very vital to the understanding. There is also this question: If use a Rule that does not follow that underlined statement, have we obeyed that underline statement?
• • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter. • • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit. • • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
Please underline the section in that block of Rules which: A) States that Deep Striking is Movement B) States that Deep Striking uses the Reserve Rules related to deploying Models C) Can not be resolved without using a Reserve Rule related to deploying Models
So you are arguing that I have somehow selectively selecting the Rules and that the questions themselves are irrelevant because of it? This can easily be fixed, quote the Deep Strike Special Rule clauses that support your position and underline the sections which answer my questions.
PS: I do have to point out that your counter argument to these very important question accusing me of isolating sections of Rules to fit my purposes. The argument you made, which spawned these questions, was isolating the worlds Deploy Them as some sort of justification to Resolve a section from a completely different Rule. This was done while completely ignoring that the very next words where as Follows and that the next section of Instructions literally telling us how to Deploy said Unit without requiring any outside influence to do so.
I normally do not attack a person's argument style like this, but it needs to be said that making such an accusation instead of answering some simple questions is just very... very... interesting.
I wasn't making a restriction, I was making a replacement. , I think that the total sum of deep strike replaces the rules for Moving on from Reserves.
Specifically the heading
Arriving from Reserve At the start of your second turn................................................................ Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
This is what (1) Refers to
Moving On From Reserve ................................... Deep Strike Rules..........................................
This is what (2) replaces
As per what I previously underlined.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves(1) and then deploy them as follows: (2)
Hollismason wrote: That's the subsection from Deep strike and further statements are made that Deep strike is movement further within the rules.
Could you quote that for me?
Because all I see is that the first time deep strike counts as movement is in the shooting phase.
Which, makes it very hard to tank shock during the movement phase.
Hollismason wrote: That's the subsection from Deep strike and further statements are made that Deep strike is movement further within the rules.
Could you quote that for me?
Because all I see is that the first time deep strike counts as movement is in the shooting phase.
Which, makes it very hard to tank shock during the movement phase.
It's already been quoted multiple times that it counts as moving at combat speed, it's also stated multiple times in the reserves portion of the book as well. I'm not like a rule quoting monkey, the sections have both been quoted multiple times verbatim the thread. In fact I had this same argument with someone in this thread that stated the " It's only movement in the shooting phase".
If you want your answer look at the first paragraph of Deep Strike. Then read the Arriving from Reserves section both imply or outright state it's a movement.
And I pointed out your flaw, thrice now, and it still has yet to be addressed to my satisfaction: Where are you getting permission to Nest/Inject/Resolve the Deep Strike Rule into the Reserve Rule?
The Core Concept of Sequencing requires us to Resolve the Deep Strike Special Rule in it's entirety, unless informed otherwise. All I want is a Rule which specifically informs us that Deep Strike is one such situation, or evidence that Deep Strike can not be Resolved by following nothing more then the instructions within. Before you point back to the sentence stating Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves then deploy them as follows: as some sort of evidence that it needs out-side instructions to function, I want you to keep in mind that the sentence is: A) Specifies the act of Rules related to rolling, such as when we Roll the D6 and what it means, and nothing else within in the Arriving from Reserve section let alone any other Reserve Rule B) Instructions to Deploy as follows, so even if it granted permission to do as you state is needed it would still over-write any Rule that originally related to how the model was deployed C) Allows a single set of instructions be 'injected' into the Deep Strike Special Rule, and mentions nothing about the Deep Strike Special Rule being 'injected' into other Rules
At this point in time I have one simple request: Please post another Rule which addresses your point or explain to my satisfaction why I should ignore the fact Deep Strike can be self-resolved in favour of your injection method.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HawaiiMatt, There are two other clauses, which where posted and addressed prior, which contain movement related instructions within the Deep Strike Special Rule itself: In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. and Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
The first is clearly triggered during the Shooting Phase, so it does not prove the concept that Deep Strike is movement by default and can not influence any Rules outside of this phase. The second all rests on the single word 'further' and it's possible meanings, but dictionary arguments are very poor evidence for Rule Support for a wide range of reasons. - The word 'further' might not be the best choice but doesn't outright change the meaning of the entire sentence so the only correct answer is that the Models previously Moved.
I also point out: Both Rules would not need to exist if Arriving from Reserves was Movement by default or that Deep Strike itself was Movement by default.
JinxDragon wrote: And I pointed out your flaw, thrice now, and it still has yet to be addressed to my satisfaction:
Where are you getting permission to Nest/Inject/Resolve the Deep Strike Rule into the Reserve Rule?
The Core Concept of Sequencing requires us to Resolve the Deep Strike Special Rule in it's entirety, unless informed otherwise. All I want is a Rule which specifically informs us that Deep Strike is one such situation, or evidence that Deep Strike can not be Resolved by following nothing more then the instructions within. Before you point back to the sentence stating Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves then deploy them as follows: as some sort of evidence that it needs out-side instructions to function, I want you to keep in mind that the sentence is:
A) Specifies the act of Rules related to rolling, such as when we Roll the D6 and what it means, and nothing else within in the Arriving from Reserve section let alone any other Reserve Rule
B) Instructions to Deploy as follows, so even if it granted permission to do as you state is needed it would still over-write any Rule that originally related to how the model was deployed
C) Allows a single set of instructions be 'injected' into the Deep Strike Special Rule, and mentions nothing about the Deep Strike Special Rule being 'injected' into other Rules
At this point in time I have one simple request:
Please post another Rule which addresses your point or explain to my satisfaction why I should ignore the fact Deep Strike can be self-resolved in favour of your injection method.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HawaiiMatt,
There are two other clauses, which where posted and addressed prior, which contain movement related instructions within the Deep Strike Special Rule itself:
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. and
Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
The first is clearly triggered during the Shooting Phase, so it does not prove the concept that Deep Strike is movement by default and can not influence any Rules outside of this phase.
The second all rests on the single word 'further' and it's possible meanings, but dictionary arguments are very poor evidence for Rule Support for a wide range of reasons.
- The word 'further' might not be the best choice but doesn't outright change the meaning of the entire sentence so the only correct answer is that the Models previously Moved.
I also point out:
Both Rules would not need to exist if Arriving from Reserves was Movement by default or that Deep Strike itself was Movement by default.
Do we need another example other than the one that we've discussed this is a direct reference to a rule stating to use another rule except X portion of the rule. I'm kind of work right now but I can name a few examples off the top of my head, Interceptor, Specifically interrupts or interjects itself into a sequence.
There's a few others as well, for example multiple rules regarding Vehicles and Transports have some very specific rules that say hold up we talked about that but we're gonna do this.
How does the Interceptor Special Rule inject itself into a sequence and, for that matter, what sequence is it even injecting itself into?!
This is the Interceptor Special Rule, after all: At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one. Underline the section which is leading you to the conclusion of where and how it 'injects' itself into other Rules.
Besides, my request was not to prove the existence of Rules which modify the individual steps of a Sequences. There are plenty of Special Rules which over-write individual Rules/Steps within another Sequence that I know of, so the concept is not foreign to me. A far better example then interceptor, which doesn't do what you claim at all, is Blast Markers. The Blast Marker Special Rule will have us resolve the To Hit portion of the Shooting Sequence using it's own instructions instead of the normal To Hit Rule, clearly 'injecting' itself by making a conflict and over-writing the existing Rule. It contains instructions making it very clear that this is what it is doing however, such as do not roll To Hit. Instead, and roll To Wound and save as normal which inform us when the Rule triggers, what it over-writes in the original sequence and when control is returned to the original Sequence.
So maybe understanding that I am not stating these rules can not exist will put the request back into the context which it was intended: A Rule which supports the concept that the Deep Strike Special Rule can only function as part of a greater Sequence.
The single sentence that even comes close to that has been dissected and I draw a different conclusion then to yourself. It grants the Deep Strike Special Rule permission to use Rules from the Reserve section of the book, no doubt about that, but I see it limited to Rules related to the Roll itself. I do not see this as instructions to somehow resolve half of the Reserve Rules till we get to the point where we would 'move' the Models and only then jump to the Deep Strike instructions. If anything it states that the 'injection' of a Rule would be one from the Reserve section of the book into the Arrival Sequence created by Deep Strike, not the other way around.
Another problem with that sentence being instruction to use the Reserve sequence, modified, is that it conflicts with any instruction involving Deployment of the models themselves. That would include the sentence When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below as the underlined section indicates the instruction is directly related to Deploying Arriving Models. Not only does that cause a problem, but the three words after instructions involving movement are 'as described below' right before referring a section that is clearly not being used by Deep Strike.
However, if we take it as permission to 'inject' the instructions related to the dice Rolls themselves into the Deep Strike Special Rule? We can resolve Deep Striking using nothing more then the Deep Strike Special Rules itself... interesting that.
Please post a Rule which proves that concept as simply stating "it has to operate with in that sequence" is re-affirming your assumption, and does not support it.
This is an example of what you can do, for it shows how to Resolve the Deep Strike Special Rule using nothing but quotable Rules within the Deep Strike Special Rule:
1: Evoke the Deep Strike Special Rule - Always start with the evocation of the Rule. 2: Place the Unit into Reserve as per this instruction: the unit must start the game in Reserve. 3) Notify my opponent that the Unit is actually in Deep Strike Reserve as per this instruction: You must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve) 4) Roll for the Unit Arriving as per these instructions: Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves - This is where you are applying the Rule backwards, resolving Deep Strike as a later stage of Reserves instead of Rolling for Arrival as part of Deep Strike - The Restriction on when the Roll is made, and the results of a 'success and failure' are the only things directly related to the Roll itself so we only have permission to include these Rules 5) Place a Model and roll for scatter as per: First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. 6) Place the rest of the Unit as per: Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one.
All using nothing but the Deep Strike Rule, as Roll for Arrival is resolved as an internal part of Deep Strike. There is no requirement to Resolve Deep Strike as an internal part of Reserves for the above to function....
Hollismason wrote: That's the subsection from Deep strike and further statements are made that Deep strike is movement further within the rules.
Could you quote that for me?
Because all I see is that the first time deep strike counts as movement is in the shooting phase.
Which, makes it very hard to tank shock during the movement phase.
It's already been quoted multiple times that it counts as moving at combat speed, it's also stated multiple times in the reserves portion of the book as well. I'm not like a rule quoting monkey, the sections have both been quoted multiple times verbatim the thread. In fact I had this same argument with someone in this thread that stated the " It's only movement in the shooting phase".
If you want your answer look at the first paragraph of Deep Strike. Then read the Arriving from Reserves section both imply or outright state it's a movement.
Sorry, you're not exactly making a clear argument, it's spread over several pages.
Ok, so combat speed, page 162:
Combat speed only comes into effect during the shooting phase, and is then retroactively applied to the movement phase (In that thurn's shooting phase... and count as having moved in the previous movement phase.)
The 3rd paragraph says they cannot move further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle if they are in one.
Ok, so you can argue further implies movement.
Let's assume you're correct.
Resolve this: (and I am a quote monkey for debates, it makes it much easier)
I Death or Glory.
I successfully score an immobilize result. As per the rules, PAGE 92, 2nd Paragraph under Death or Glory, "If the model successfully manages to wreck the vehicle, or inflict a Crew Stunned, Immobilized or Explodes! result, the vehicle halts 1" away from the heroic individual (or blows up there)."
IMO, if your new take on tank shocking doesn't work with the rules for death or glory (part of tank shocking), then you new take is most likely wrong.
Furthermore, can you explain why you think tank shock triggers before Mishap.
Resolve this: (and I am a quote monkey for debates, it makes it much easier)
I Death or Glory. I successfully score an immobilize result. As per the rules, PAGE 92, 2nd Paragraph under Death or Glory, "If the model successfully manages to wreck the vehicle, or inflict a Crew Stunned, Immobilized or Explodes! result, the vehicle halts 1" away from the heroic individual (or blows up there)." IMO, if your new take on tank shocking doesn't work with the rules for death or glory (part of tank shocking), then you new take is most likely wrong.
Furthermore, can you explain why you think tank shock triggers before Mishap.
That is a pretty good take on it.
Where does the vehicle end up if stunned/immobilized? Should it Mishap then, or get a free safe placement? If it mishaps you now have the possibility of a vehicle incapable of moving ending up in Ongoing Reserves... Is it automatically destroyed since it can't move onto the table next turn? Or will the Delayed result somehow mean it DIDN'T take damage since it never arrived and so could never have been hit by DoG?
If it is destroyed, where do the passengers end up? Mishap or free safe placement?
If it explodes, does the explosion hit the brave unit that did DoG? From what point do you measure how many are hit?
For the sake of sanity I'd keep Mishap before Tank Shock - that leaves the fewest absurd questions to solve. So you're technically allowed to try but can never resolve it before mishapping.
