So A while ago I emailed GW Investor Relations with a few ranting questions. I freely admit that I was being something of a douchey brat but I was frustrated with the company that makes one of my favourite things making me feel stupid for liking the things so much. So yeah, it wasn't the most thought out email I've ever sent.
Anyway, I thought some of you guys would get a kick out of some rarely seen official reaction from Games Workshop. I've put their responses in bold because the email that was sent back to me was a little hard to follow.
Cheers,
My original email:
Dear Sir/Madam,
I write to you today as somebody who fell in love with second edition Space Marines. I still collect those old metal marines and pick them up when and where I can. Let us suppose that I would want to invest money into the company that has formed such a large part of my free time and the free time of my friends over the years. I have some questions about why you do business the way that you do.
1. Why do Games Workshop shy away from all customer relations in this interconnected age? Instead of talking to your customers through the internet, you use it as a shield with which to keep them away. Even the 'eavy metal facebook group was shut down without explanation, leaving us to assume that it was a draconian and clandestine measure that does little more than hurt a community which has already been shrunken to its smallest by your actions.
Instead, why not foster and grow that community? Your fans want to love the company, not just your products. Why not support international tournaments - like League of Legends - and have fans play test and break your rule sets again and again so that they can be better with each revision? Why not have an official forum for people to share the hobby and get FAQ's in real time from the design team? Why not open the design team up and let us see their process through video blogs? Why not give the company a face?
2. Why are your retail stores not places where I feel free to play, create and share in your fabulous hobby? The massive cuts Games Workshop have undertaken and the relentless mark-ups on box sets has alienated great swathes of your customers. Every Games Workshop store I have visited has tried to get me to buy Dark Vengeance or, before that, Assault on Black Reach. I have three standing armies of around 2000 points and still, they treat me like a new player.
And it's because old players don't want to go there. We don't want to deal with other people's children, we want to enjoy our favourite game. But now, in place of hobby centres we have virtual stalls that spit out box sets and ask us if we need any glue. I don't buy your glue, it's overpriced and ineffective. The same with your paint, it's overpriced, comes in useless flip tops instead of dropper bottles and has changed too often for me to connect to it anymore. Those issues go back to customer relations.
3. Why can't Tom Kirby admit that the company is in trouble? Every annual report is filled with this nonsense about healthy numbers when we can all see that dropping sales is being covered up by soaring prices. Why not do the logical thing and try to grow the consumer base by engaging with older hobbyists? If the prices were right, I wouldn't have spent my last lost of 'hobby money' on everything me and a friend would need to play the X-Wing Miniatures game, I'd have bought a Land Raider, some Terminators and a Tactical Squad with Rhino.
Prices are too high and even though Alan Sugar says bad salesmen cry about the prices, consumers just stop paying them. You've gone past the goldilocks zone and off into the woods with current prices and now you're faced with the problem of slashing those prices and not devaluing the product.
If you could please direct this mail to somebody who is willing to answer my many questions, I'd be thankful.
The Reply
Dear Mr -
Thanks so much for taking the time to send your email to the investor relations email address.
Your question 1
'1. Why do Games Workshop shy away from all customer relations in this interconnected age? Instead of talking to your customers through the internet, you use it as a shield with which to keep them away. Even the 'eavy metal facebook group was shut down without explanation, leaving us to assume that it was a draconian and clandestine measure that does little more than hurt a community which has already been shrunken to its smallest by your actions.
Instead, why not foster and grow that community? Your fans want to love the company, not just your products. Why not support international tournaments - like League of Legends - and have fans play test and break your rule sets again and again so that they can be better with each revision? Why not have an official forum for people to share the hobby and get FAQ's in real time from the design team? Why not open the design team up and let us see their process through video blogs? Why not give the company a face?'
Well, we certainly do not shy away from contact with our customers - we see them face to face all the time in our stores around the world, at events and of course the thousands of visitors who come to Warhammer World in Nottingham every year. Our experience of the comment sections of, for example, Facebook, is that they are not very helpful to most of our customers as they simply become a place for trolling, spam or vitriolic opinion. This is to be regretted, but is a fact of the internet age. We are not alone in this opinion.
As regards international tournaments, letting fans break our rule sets and so on, our main thrust is not about competitive gameplay, but about the wonderful worlds of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 and the amazing models which we painstakingly create for our customers to collect. Of course, if some of our fans wish to play competitive, 'hardcore' tournaments, then that is up to them - we wish them well and hope that they very much have a good time. We, however, do not seek to prescribe what anyone does with our models, rather we let our customers and collectors get stuck in to whatever takes their fancy from the broad and inclusive spectrum of collecting, assembling, modelling, painting and gaming. If collectors wish to write their own rules, or use no rules, paint their models, leave them unpainted - we are not precious! -'Everyone's hobby is not the same as mine' is something we take very much to heart.
Linked to that sentiment and principle is our belief that any 'cult of personality' is not helpful either. We do not wish to hand out official 'rulings' from 'personalities', and we see no need to - by and large our customers enjoy engaging with each other and making their own minds up about what rules (if any) to use, how to interpret a particular phrase or line and so on. Again, we do not wish to be prescriptive in that regard.
Your question 2
'2. Why are your retail stores not places where I feel free to play, create and share in your fabulous hobby? The massive cuts Games Workshop have undertaken and the relentless mark-ups on box sets has alienated great swathes of your customers. Every Games Workshop store I have visited has tried to get me to buy Dark Vengeance or, before that, Assault on Black Reach. I have three standing armies of around 2000 points and still, they treat me like a new player.
And it's because old players don't want to go there. We don't want to deal with other people's children, we want to enjoy our favourite game. But now, in place of hobby centres we have virtual stalls that spit out box sets and ask us if we need any glue. I don't buy your glue, it's overpriced and ineffective. The same with your paint, it's overpriced, comes in useless flip tops instead of dropper bottles and has changed too often for me to connect to it anymore. Those issues go back to customer relations.'
It does not feel as if it is our place to answer such a personal question as to why you do not feel at home in a Games Workshop store. Many thousands of customers do, every day. However, it is equally true that many other customers would rather engage with like minded collectors in a club, an independent retailer, or in a pals games room. All of which are super- we make no judgement about where, when or how anyone enjoys their hobby, and very much encourage such diversity and choice.
As to prices, ultimately it is of course entirely down to each individual how they wish to spend their hard earned cash. We would not want that any other way. We do, however, believe that Games Workshop products are better quality than ever before and offer good value. Not that we are resting on our laurels of course - we can always do better, and strive every day to do so.
Meanwhile our paint range has always been a key part of our offer and we continually strive to make it ever better too. The current range is extremely popular, and the painting system it supports allows and encourages everyone to get on and achieve really good results. Some of the new paints are amazing - have you seen the technical paints? Ardcoat gloss varnish, Agrellan Earth, Blood for the Blood God (blood effect), Lahmian medium for glazes and transfer sealing, liquid green stuff, Nihilakh oxide verdigris effect to name a few. We experience few issues with our paints or glues - but we are always seeking to improve our products and receive any comments/observations thankfully.
Your Question 3
This question/observation seems to be about price. We make no apologies about our prices and Games Workshop is, as Tom Kirby says, in good health. We are a very profitable business, manufacturing all our own products in Nottingham, UK, and regularly deliver strong dividends to our owners. Not many businesses have been able to say the same, especially over the difficult economic times of the last few years. We achieve this success by selling lots of Citadel miniatures to lots of happy collectors all around the world.
Of course, we know that all customers have choices - no one does business in a vacuum. We respect that, and think it is a very healthy thing. Whilst we would of course prefer that you continue to enjoy the wide range of products available from Games Workshop, we also very much hope that if you decide that X Wing prepainted models are the range for you, that you have a great time with them.
Once again, many thanks for your considered letter.
What I took from this: Wow, GW recognises X-wing exists!
On a more serious note related to that, though, I find it a little odd that they answer a question about price/value by referring to no-assembly pre-painted figures made by a company they actively work with rather than talking about the likes of Mantic/Dreamforge that are producing much more similar product and content for half the price!
If collectors wish to write their own rules, or use no rules, paint their models, leave them unpainted - we are not precious! -'Everyone's hobby is not the same as mine' is something we take very much to heart.
So, they essentially said, "if you don't like the rules, make up your own!"
If that ain't a blank check...
But it also sounds rather lazy on their part. They'll keep making rules that would suit them, rather than their customers?
I find it sort of off-putting that this mail continually refers to the community as "customers" or "collectors".
Who are they kidding? If the game aspect of GW didn't exist nobody would buy their overpriced models.
Its not a bad set of answers to be fair imo.
They are right in that
GW does engage with customers through the stores, events and games days more so than social media, thats the way they like to do it, have stated so and probably will continue to do it. Should they engage in social media a bit more? Probably but they're also right in that its an avenue for trolling and worthless gak, I see it everyday in my job.
They are right on the tournament angle, for years GW has stated they arent going to run competitive tourneys and would rather see players engage in the cinematic beer and pretsels style events. Whilst many people dont agree with that, at least they have stated it openly and make no effort to conceal that fact. Its a case of accepting it and organising ones owns events, of which loads take place anyway.
Agreed on the response to the store question, I dont love GW stores but having said that they arent woeful either. Usually the staff are friendly, they will let you paint a bit, play a small game and generally get on with what you want. Yes YMMV quite a bit but the original question was highly subjective so everyone is inevitably going to have a different experience with the stores. Could they do a bit more in store? Yes, probably, but they arent dens of depression either.
Fully agree that their scuplts and range of paints/sprays etc have improved beyond measure in the last few years and have stated as such before. Whether they justify some of the price increases is another matter but some of the newer kits imho are stunning. Whether one agrees is down to subjective and artistic taste but for hard evidence something like his might be salient: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/617492.page In addition some kits are actually good value, its the ones that make you go "huh 40 quid for 3 guys" that annoy me most. I really wish they'd change to a model of price per points ingame or price per unit slot (troops=super cheap, elites a bit more expensive etc).
The price argument I cant comment on, its been done to death and I dont have enough financial knowledge to comment on whether a price of X is really fair based on production/shipping/sales/support etc etc.
But an interesting reply nonetheless. Cheers for sharing.
Paradigm wrote:What I took from this: Wow, GW recognises X-wing exists!
On a more serious note related to that, though, I find it a little odd that they answer a question about price/value by referring to no-assembly pre-painted figures made by a company they actively work with rather than talking about the likes of Mantic/Dreamforge that are producing much more similar product and content for half the price!
The funny thing is I thought it was quite a decent reply then you get to that last bit which in my head I would paraphrase as "we're 'really' glad you like your X-Wing prepaints (yuk) now take them and feth off!".
I have to admit, that's a very polite and reasonable answer from GW. Thoughtful, well placed arguments and less marketing blabla (except for the paints part...).
Whenever I have a complaint to make and contact a big business I'd love to have such an answer and not the normal
"Thank you for your E-Mail, it will be forwarded to the right place" blab and then never to be heard off.
Paradigm wrote: What I took from this: Wow, GW recognises X-wing exists!
On a more serious note related to that, though, I find it a little odd that they answer a question about price/value by referring to no-assembly pre-painted figures made by a company they actively work with rather than talking about the likes of Mantic/Dreamforge that are producing much more similar product and content for half the price!
It's because pre paints are the opposite of the "hobby", so the safest alternative they can suggest.
Paradigm wrote: What I took from this: Wow, GW recognises X-wing exists!
On a more serious note related to that, though, I find it a little odd that they answer a question about price/value by referring to no-assembly pre-painted figures made by a company they actively work with rather than talking about the likes of Mantic/Dreamforge that are producing much more similar product and content for half the price!
It's because pre paints are the opposite of the "hobby", so the safest alternative they can suggest.
Exactly what I mean, they use a totally different product to avoid answering the question of why there are people producing basically the same product at a fraction of the price. Maybe it's just because the OP mentioned X-wing, but I'd be interested to see how they'd respond to the same example but swapping X-wing for Warpath/Deadzone.
I was never expecting GW to agree with any of the criticisms - especially on their prices. They are clearly not going to back down on that one any time soon.
Seems like the official stance on rules is that they're secondary to the models and fluff. Again, this has been fairly clear for some time, so if you're hoping for a redesign of the rules to make them more streamlined, I wouldn't get my hopes up. Same goes for social media, they obviously prefer to maintain secrecy rather than change their minds on that one.
All in all I'm not surprised by their response - they were never going to open up to someone who emailed them and admit they'd done wrong. But I have to give them credit for bothering to write a proper reply.
Yeah, they actually put some reasons for why they choose to act the way they do. Sure, I think their arguments are wrong, but at least I feel like they have thought through the justifications for thier actions.
That allows meto give them a bit mor ecredit thatn I did before.
It strikes me as another instance of GW pushing the 'collectibles' narrative.
The thrust of the message in that email is that GW makes collectible miniature figurines. What customers decide to do with those collectibles is their own damn business.
I.e. GW does not make toys designed to be used in games. This, of course, is a pile of bull-gack, and directly contradicts decades of GW's own statements about its products.
I owned stock back when finecast first came out. I had picked up a Librarian and it was complete gack so I sent an extensive rant to Investor Relations detailing exactly what I thought about their "fine" product. A few days later I received a response from Tom Kirby; I'm not silly enough to think that Tom actually typed and sent the email but it was signed by him instead of "Investor Relations" though I'd almost believe he wrote it because it was chock full of the drivel he posts in the Chairman's Preamble on the earnings reports.
Well, we certainly do not shy away from contact with our customers - we see them face to face all the time in our stores around the world, at events and of course the thousands of visitors who come to Warhammer World in Nottingham every year. Our experience of the comment sections of, for example, Facebook, is that they are not very helpful to most of our customers as they simply become a place for trolling, spam or vitriolic opinion. This is to be regretted, but is a fact of the internet age. We are not alone in this opinion.
At this point, it would have been good to reply; why is it then, that every other major miniature and wargame producer on the market has a variety of social media inc. FB, twitter and forums, and is able to run them without them being overwhelmed by 'trolling, spam and vitriol'?
Intresting,
It was a good reply, one you would expect from any company. If the people at gw aren't brain washed or something it must of killed the poor guy (or guys) to type "Our prices are reasonable".
They did however had a strong point about the fact they do make contact with the customer through there stores.
Thanks for sharing!
GW wrote:Of course, we know that all customers have choices - no one does business in a vacuum.
If this doesn´t hint to GW being aware of the market despite what Kirby has said in some pseudo PR statement then I don´t know what does. Maybe now that age old "weapon" of the anti-GW crew can be put to rest, since it was missing a blade and the handle had corroded in half ages ago.
This was ofcourse, obvious to anyone who has some common sense.
GW wrote:Well, we certainly do not shy away from contact with our customers - we see them face to face all the time in our stores around the world, at events and of course the thousands of visitors who come to Warhammer World in Nottingham every year. Our experience of the comment sections of, for example, Facebook, is that they are not very helpful to most of our customers as they simply become a place for trolling, spam or vitriolic opinion. This is to be regretted, but is a fact of the internet age. We are not alone in this opinion.
Most games forums turn into cesspools ( especially videogames. ) I can only imagine what the GW forums would be like if they allowed them. I can undestand easily why you wouldn´t want something like that existing and linking to your company. Also, so much for "GW doesn´t care about it´s customers."
Then again... just required common sense.
Got me thinking about the tournament angle again anyhow... certainly everyone loves a perfectly balanced game if one even exists, but if GW doesn´t even aim at a tournament oriented game, then why expect such a thing. Certainly they are not making an unbalanced game deliberately, as they are not evil like some want to think. But it must be admitted that they have taken longer than anyone else to come up with balanced rules...
Why expect product X when a company has declared they are going with Y.
All in all, pretty much what I expected as answers and what you would get as a response from most companies.
Easy E wrote: Yeah, they actually put some reasons for why they choose to act the way they do. Sure, I think their arguments are wrong, but at least I feel like they have thought through the justifications for thier actions.
That allows meto give them a bit mor ecredit thatn I did before.
I agree. The response makes sense if you think as I do that GW's main target market is young boys with no wargaming experience who won't know how expensive and (arguably) shonky the GW set up really is. Social media must be avoided because it would expose these HHHobbyists to contradictory views.
Personally I think their strategy has got way off the best track but as long as the financials are good it shows they know better than me.
GW wrote:Of course, we know that all customers have choices - no one does business in a vacuum.
If this doesn´t hint to GW being aware of the market despite what Kirby has said in some pseudo PR statement then I don´t know what does. Maybe now that age old "weapon" of the anti-GW crew can be put to rest, since it was missing a blade and the handle had corroded in half ages ago.
This was ofcourse, obvious to anyone who has some common sense.
GW wrote:Well, we certainly do not shy away from contact with our customers - we see them face to face all the time in our stores around the world, at events and of course the thousands of visitors who come to Warhammer World in Nottingham every year. Our experience of the comment sections of, for example, Facebook, is that they are not very helpful to most of our customers as they simply become a place for trolling, spam or vitriolic opinion. This is to be regretted, but is a fact of the internet age. We are not alone in this opinion.
Most games forums turn into cesspools ( especially videogames. ) I can only imagine what the GW forums would be like if they allowed them. I can undestand easily why you wouldn´t want something like that existing and linking to your company. Also, so much for "GW doesn´t care about it´s customers."
Then again... just required common sense.
Got me thinking about the tournament angle again anyhow... certainly everyone loves a perfectly balanced game if one even exists, but if GW doesn´t even aim at a tournament oriented game, then why expect such a thing. Certainly they are not making an unbalanced game deliberately, as they are not evil like some want to think. But it must be admitted that they have taken longer than anyone else to come up with balanced rules...
Why expect product X when a company has declared they are going with Y.
All in all, pretty much what I expected as answers and what you would get as a response from most companies.
Your definition of "common sense" needs some reworking.
They did however had a strong point about the fact they do make contact with the customer through there stores.
Thanks for sharing!
Certainly does not address how they make contact with customers that don't go to the stores, which is far and away the majority of customers in the US.
Got me thinking about the tournament angle again anyhow... certainly everyone loves a perfectly balanced game if one even exists, but if GW doesn´t even aim at a tournament oriented game, then why expect such a thing. Certainly they are not making an unbalanced game deliberately, as they are not evil like some want to think. But it must be admitted that they have taken longer than anyone else to come up with balanced rules...
Why expect product X when a company has declared they are going with Y.
All in all, pretty much what I expected as answers and what you would get as a response from most companies.
While yes GW is very obviously moving away from competitive play for their games do understand that it wasn't always that way. GW actively supported tournaments and had GW sanctioned ones (remember Ard' Boyz?). So a lot of their customers may have bought into 40k when GW did support tournament play, and those customers may not agree with the "new" approach that GW had for their games.
I mean I still have my warhammer 5th ed box set manuals from when I was a kid and the last "mission" in the one of books is GW suggestion for tournament play.
RunicFIN wrote: Most games forums turn into cesspools ( especially videogames. ) I can only imagine what the GW forums would be like if they allowed them. I can undestand easily why you wouldn´t want something like that existing and linking to your company. Also, so much for "GW doesn´t care about it´s customers."
Then again... just required common sense.
Got me thinking about the tournament angle again anyhow... certainly everyone loves a perfectly balanced game if one even exists, but if GW doesn´t even aim at a tournament oriented game, then why expect such a thing. Certainly they are not making an unbalanced game deliberately, as they are not evil like some want to think. But it must be admitted that they have taken longer than anyone else to come up with balanced rules...
Why expect product X when a company has declared they are going with Y.
I don't think any of their answers about the forums are common sense. Yes forums can deteriorate, but most game companies not named Games Workshop are running thriving forums that only help the companies. Most game companies (and not just wargaming companies) are aware that an active, engaged community is integral to what they do. Of course, most game companies are fully aware that they are game companies and do not try to pass themselves off as collectible companies whose products happen to have game rules written for them. I have long played MTG and D&D/Pathfinder and these companies have managed to have long running forums and communication with the people making the games and make it work. As far as the ruleset, you are correct that it is folly to assume that gw will at any point in time admit that rules should trump fluff.
As regards international tournaments, letting fans break our rule sets and so on, our main thrust is not about competitive gameplay, but about the wonderful worlds of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 and the amazing models which we painstakingly create for our customers to collect. Of course, if some of our fans wish to play competitive, 'hardcore' tournaments, then that is up to them - we wish them well and hope that they very much have a good time. We, however, do not seek to prescribe what anyone does with our models, rather we let our customers and collectors get stuck in to whatever takes their fancy from the broad and inclusive spectrum of collecting, assembling, modelling, painting and gaming. If collectors wish to write their own rules, or use no rules, paint their models, leave them unpainted - we are not precious! -'Everyone's hobby is not the same as mine' is something we take very much to heart.
Linked to that sentiment and principle is our belief that any 'cult of personality' is not helpful either. We do not wish to hand out official 'rulings' from 'personalities', and we see no need to - by and large our customers enjoy engaging with each other and making their own minds up about what rules (if any) to use, how to interpret a particular phrase or line and so on. Again, we do not wish to be prescriptive in that regard.
So with this statement, would this be legal to use old codices then if you so choose? Maybe even mix and match, use something in 7th edition codex and then what is not in the 7th edition codex use the 5th or 4th edition codex.
So now it would seem the only people who say you can't do it, is us. It is perfectly legal now to use old codicies.
Ironically it even lets us use anything else as well. We can use Privateer Press rules and minis as well. Now if people want to share the 40K experience make sure we include other companies miniatures as well now. GW just has given up permission to use anything and everything we like.
As regards international tournaments, letting fans break our rule sets and so on, our main thrust is not about competitive gameplay, but about the wonderful worlds of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 and the amazing models which we painstakingly create for our customers to collect. Of course, if some of our fans wish to play competitive, 'hardcore' tournaments, then that is up to them - we wish them well and hope that they very much have a good time. We, however, do not seek to prescribe what anyone does with our models, rather we let our customers and collectors get stuck in to whatever takes their fancy from the broad and inclusive spectrum of collecting, assembling, modelling, painting and gaming. If collectors wish to write their own rules, or use no rules, paint their models, leave them unpainted - we are not precious! -'Everyone's hobby is not the same as mine' is something we take very much to heart.
Linked to that sentiment and principle is our belief that any 'cult of personality' is not helpful either. We do not wish to hand out official 'rulings' from 'personalities', and we see no need to - by and large our customers enjoy engaging with each other and making their own minds up about what rules (if any) to use, how to interpret a particular phrase or line and so on. Again, we do not wish to be prescriptive in that regard.
So with this statement, would this be legal to use old codices then if you so choose? Maybe even mix and match, use something in 7th edition codex and then what is not in the 7th edition codex use the 5th or 4th edition codex.
So now it would seem the only people who say you can't do it, is us. It is perfectly legal now to use old codicies.
Ironically it even lets us use anything else as well. We can use Privateer Press rules and minis as well. Now if people want to share the 40K experience make sure we include other companies miniatures as well now. GW just has given up permission to use anything and everything we like.
"We" have always been able to do that, and some of us have been for awhile now. It's not like the GW Stormtroopers are gonna bust down your door, break all your models, and burn all your books because you used other shoulder pads than GW's. It's nothing new.
GW wrote:Of course, we know that all customers have choices - no one does business in a vacuum.
If this doesn´t hint to GW being aware of the market despite what Kirby has said in some pseudo PR statement then I don´t know what does. Maybe now that age old "weapon" of the anti-GW crew can be put to rest, since it was missing a blade and the handle had corroded in half ages ago.
This was of course, obvious to anyone who has some common sense.
"Noone does business in a vacuum" isn't exactly some profound insight or newly discovered piece of lost knowledge, it's a trite, business school buzz phrase that just states the obvious. Just because someone makes some vague allusion to the fact that they're dimly aware that there are other companies out there doing the same thing they do, doesn't mean that they're connected to their fan base (hah!) in the meaningful way that a company of their ilk should be in the current day and age. If for no other reason than getting your customers to tell you what they want to buy from you is a no brainer when you have to invest capital in new product as often as GW do.
GW wrote:Well, we certainly do not shy away from contact with our customers - we see them face to face all the time in our stores around the world, at events and of course the thousands of visitors who come to Warhammer World in Nottingham every year. Our experience of the comment sections of, for example, Facebook, is that they are not very helpful to most of our customers as they simply become a place for trolling, spam or vitriolic opinion. This is to be regretted, but is a fact of the internet age. We are not alone in this opinion.
Most games forums turn into cesspools ( especially videogames. ) I can only imagine what the GW forums would be like if they allowed them. I can undestand easily why you wouldn´t want something like that existing and linking to your company. Also, so much for "GW doesn´t care about it´s customers."
Then again... just required common sense.
Yes, if a company takes unpopular actions or makes unpopular decisions then that is generally reflected in how they are discussed in online communities. Weirdly, most market leaders in consumer facing industries acknowledge that one still needs to maintain an online presence and a dialogue with it's customer base even if it is hugely unpopular with that customer base at the current time. The fact that they claim to prefer to interact in person if frankly terrifying. I have yet to turn my back on GW, or is that Warhammer now? completely, but I seldom set foot in the local store, and I sure as hell won't be spending the cash to cross the country and attend an event at Nottingham. Know who will? People who are happy with GW. Unfortunately, "everything is so cool! wow, look! Shiny!" is atrocious criticism if one is looking to improve how one does business, and certainly doesn't tell you why your revenue and profit is dropping by double digits at every accounting waypoint.
Got me thinking about the tournament angle again anyhow... certainly everyone loves a perfectly balanced game if one even exists, but if GW doesn´t even aim at a tournament oriented game, then why expect such a thing. Certainly they are not making an unbalanced game deliberately, as they are not evil like some want to think. But it must be admitted that they have taken longer than anyone else to come up with balanced rules...
Why expect product X when a company has declared they are going with Y.
All in all, pretty much what I expected as answers and what you would get as a response from most companies.
GW has never "declared Y" that is part of the problem. As others have mentioned, there was a good period when GW ran sanctioned events and supported others. It is only common sense to infer from that that they intended 40K to be played in tournaments. Now, it would also be fair, and common sense, to infer from the essentially unfit for purpose quality of the rules since 6th dropped that they have changed their attitude substantially in that regard.
But they never told us.
This loops right back round to the lack of communication issue. Somebody (*cough* Jervis *cough*) obviously decided we all needed to start playing 40K differently, whether we wanted to or not. However, nobody thought to tell all the players who bought in during the period when GW were at least pretending it was a competitive game. Subsequently you have a number of players with the rug pulled out from under them, who are no longer able to pursue an element of the hobby, perhaps the only element they enjoy.
Is it any wonder that those players are angry and frustrated, especially when nobody told them this was happening?
This is just one element that has caused dissatisfaction among the player base, there's probably any one of three or four other solid reasons why people are annoyed at GW.
In fact, when you stop and think about it, perhaps everyone should have a reason to be annoyed with GW, at least a little bit.
I find it funny they cited pewdiepie taking down his comment section as justification for why they took down theirs.
PewDiePie took down his due to the amount of vile and toxic comments that his fan base is NOTORIOUS for.
As we all remember GW closed down their facebook page due to the outrage they caused when they claimed to own "space marine" and trying to stop the sale of "spot the space marine".
Well, we certainly do not shy away from contact with our customers - we see them face to face all the time in our stores around the world, at events and of course the thousands of visitors who come to Warhammer World in Nottingham every year. Our experience of the comment sections of, for example, Facebook, is that they are not very helpful to most of our customers as they simply become a place for trolling, spam or vitriolic opinion. This is to be regretted, but is a fact of the internet age. We are not alone in this opinion.
At this point, it would have been good to reply; why is it then, that every other major miniature and wargame producer on the market has a variety of social media inc. FB, twitter and forums, and is able to run them without them being overwhelmed by 'trolling, spam and vitriol'?
cottonelle bathroom tissue dose more to out reach with their costumers in social media then GW dose!
lol
Well, we certainly do not shy away from contact with our customers - we see them face to face all the time in our stores around the world, at events and of course the thousands of visitors who come to Warhammer World in Nottingham every year. Our experience of the comment sections of, for example, Facebook, is that they are not very helpful to most of our customers as they simply become a place for trolling, spam or vitriolic opinion. This is to be regretted, but is a fact of the internet age. We are not alone in this opinion.
At this point, it would have been good to reply; why is it then, that every other major miniature and wargame producer on the market has a variety of social media inc. FB, twitter and forums, and is able to run them without them being overwhelmed by 'trolling, spam and vitriol'?
Are you sure every other major producer utilizes it? Regardless, I'd also argue that if this forum is ANY indication, they would absolutely be overrun without constant moderation that then just makes people more angry since their rant was deleted. The community around GW is much to toxic, blaming GW for that is not the right mind set frankly.
I like the part where having the guys who write the rules answer questions about said rules would be creating some sort of 'cult of personality'...
No... wait... I don't like that part at all. It's one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.
Davor wrote: So with this statement, would this be legal to use old codices then if you so choose?
There has never been anything in the rules (barring one or two exceptions - Craftworld Eldar, for example) requiring players to use the most recent codex.
troa wrote: The community around GW is much to toxic, blaming GW for that is not the right mind set frankly.
The community around GW is 'toxic' precisely because of their refusal to engage with it.
They could generate a huge amount of goodwill through simple things like previewing what army they are working on, and having the studio guys answer rules questions.
They choose not to. And so people have become progressively more irritated at being ignored.
GW's idiotic letter wrote:We do not wish to hand out official 'rulings' from 'personalities', and we see no need to - by and large our customers enjoy engaging with each other and making their own minds up about what rules (if any) to use, how to interpret a particular phrase or line and so on. Again, we do not wish to be prescriptive in that regard.
I was going to say that I'm shocked that a representative of a profitable game publisher could say something so unbelievably stupid and still (presumably) have a job, but then I remembered that we're talking about GW here. This of course doesn't make the stupidity of this position any better, but it does at least explain why it happened.
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insaniak wrote: The community around GW is 'toxic' precisely because of their refusal to engage with it.
They could generate a huge amount of goodwill through simple things like previewing what army they are working on, and having the studio guys answer rules questions.
They choose not to. And so people have become progressively more irritated at being ignored.
And the proof: when GW still allowed FW/BL to run their own facebook pages they were fairly polite and reasonable places by the standards of the internet as a whole. It's no coincidence that these were the divisions of GW that had been guilty of far fewer offenses against their community.
Peregrine wrote: And the proof: when GW still allowed FW/BL to run their own facebook pages they were fairly polite and reasonable places by the standards of the internet as a whole. It's no coincidence that these were the divisions of GW that had been guilty of far fewer offenses against their community.
From what little I saw, the Specialist Games forums also seemed to tick over without too many issues.
Our experience of the comment sections of, for example, Facebook, is that they are not very helpful to most of our customers as they simply become a place for trolling, spam or vitriolic opinion.
Cracks me up. The people who whine and whine incessantly online about how 'their hobby' is being ruined by big ol' mean GW are so unpleasant that GW straight up wants nothing to do with them. People post these long-winded diatribes online about 'why I quit GW' or #iampartofthereason etc have been so openly unpleasant for so long, GW would rather go out of business than even try to communicate with them. Good work, guys!
They say they removed some social media things because they descend into toxic abuse - which does happen on the Internet. But they don't acknowledge that the bulk of that which finally caused them to close was brought about by a justifiably negative reaction to their own obnoxious litigation practices.
Howard A Treesong wrote: They say they removed some social media things because they descend into toxic abuse - which does happen on the Internet. But they don't acknowledge that the bulk of that which finally caused them to close was brought about by a justifiably negative reaction to their own obnoxious litigation practices.
And their "explanation" also doesn't exactly match with why they closed their Facebook pages for the Black Library and ForgeWorld since those pages had no abuse of any type on them...
Don't bring logic into it howard, the hobby is clearly too good for you . I hope you move onto the hobby of playing wargames instead of the hobby of buying games workshop miniatures, however i don't think you will find it as enjoyable.
I mostly play MtG and Wizards manage to run an informative events filled website, a forum and a card database. GW run an online shop. The comparison is embarrassing.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I mostly play MtG and Wizards manage to run an informative events filled website, a forum and a card database. GW run an online shop. The comparison is embarrassing.
Well, yeah, but it is a 5 million pounds online shop! We can't even begin to imagine how much Wizard's content filled site must have costed!
I was amused by this quote made today in relation to a different industry and it's relevance:
Meanwhile Justin King, the former chief executive of Sainsbury's, said football was running a business plan that let the supporters down.
"Any business that thinks it can simply rely upon the loyalty of its customers, regardless of how they treat them, in the end will fail," King said.
"Because if you ever start acting in a way that assumes that your customer will keep coming regardless of what you do to them then you'll start doing things that actually are not in your customers' interests."
King, who retired in July this year after 10 years as head of Sainsbury's, believes there is more choice available to football fans when it comes to attending matches than some clubs appreciate.
You could change 3 words in that entire quote and it would be GW. But I guess when your Chairman thinks he's Steve Jobs, what Justin King has to say is quite far beneath your notice.
GW wrote:Of course, we know that all customers have choices - no one does business in a vacuum.
If this doesn´t hint to GW being aware of the market despite what Kirby has said in some pseudo PR statement then I don´t know what does. Maybe now that age old "weapon" of the anti-GW crew can be put to rest, since it was missing a blade and the handle had corroded in half ages ago.
This was ofcourse, obvious to anyone who has some common sense.
GW wrote:Well, we certainly do not shy away from contact with our customers - we see them face to face all the time in our stores around the world, at events and of course the thousands of visitors who come to Warhammer World in Nottingham every year. Our experience of the comment sections of, for example, Facebook, is that they are not very helpful to most of our customers as they simply become a place for trolling, spam or vitriolic opinion. This is to be regretted, but is a fact of the internet age. We are not alone in this opinion.
Most games forums turn into cesspools ( especially videogames. ) I can only imagine what the GW forums would be like if they allowed them. I can undestand easily why you wouldn´t want something like that existing and linking to your company. Also, so much for "GW doesn´t care about it´s customers."
Then again... just required common sense.
Got me thinking about the tournament angle again anyhow... certainly everyone loves a perfectly balanced game if one even exists, but if GW doesn´t even aim at a tournament oriented game, then why expect such a thing. Certainly they are not making an unbalanced game deliberately, as they are not evil like some want to think. But it must be admitted that they have taken longer than anyone else to come up with balanced rules...
Why expect product X when a company has declared they are going with Y.
All in all, pretty much what I expected as answers and what you would get as a response from most companies.
Your definition of "common sense" needs some reworking.
I don't think any of their answers about the forums are common sense.
Badly written sentence, I meant the common sense -bit regarding "GW cares about it´s customers only." in that one. Yeah, can´t really say it´s common sense to shut down your forums/social media page ( altough I still understand that choice. )
It would have been such a better move to respond to the Spots the Space Marine debacle by... fake apologizing. The book had part of its proceeds going to the Wounded Warrior Project (a charity for disabled veterans) so GW could have just made a donation to that same charity and talking about how they felt they had to defend their trade marks but find how it all turned out to be regrettable.
The small donation to the same charity that Spots was giving part of its proceeds and a fake apology where you don't admit any real wrong doing would have turned the Facebook page around and set the tone that GW is a company that listens. Imagine just how differently the discussions about GW and customer relations would be going if GW's defenders would be able to say something like "they said it was regrettable and made a donation to that charity, what more do you want?"
Instead GW pulled their social media presence and put the responsibility for social media on their retail employees...
Our experience of the comment sections of, for example, Facebook, is that they are not very helpful to most of our customers as they simply become a place for trolling, spam or vitriolic opinion.
Cracks me up. The people who whine and whine incessantly online about how 'their hobby' is being ruined by big ol' mean GW are so unpleasant that GW straight up wants nothing to do with them. People post these long-winded diatribes online about 'why I quit GW' or #iampartofthereason etc have been so openly unpleasant for so long, GW would rather go out of business than even try to communicate with them. Good work, guys!
I don't think GW fans are some special breed of troglodyte that can't have a public forum. I think GW fans are people just like everyone else. Get a bunch of people together and there will be disagreements. GW didn't cut all ties to social media because GW customers are a bunch of horrible people. They cut ties because customers were upset by the business practices of the company and whey they complained about them (rightfully so) and instead of addressing them, GW just closed its eyes and covered its ears. This frustrated customers even more because they knew they were being ignored.
In that response the dude says that they don't need to answer rules questions because players prefer to make up their own answers. No. We don't. GW is out of touch with reality and can't handle adult things like clear rules or public apologies.
Now imagine if GW had some actual brains. Their twitter and Facebook pages would have WIP mockups of things weeks or months in advance, teasing upcoming things. They would have a way to engage with rules questions or feedback and actually maybe listen. They could submit playtest rules and get feedback and see how things really work.
Instead they basically dictate and say don't like it go away, we do things this way and it's the best way ever and if you disagree then you aren't the kind of customer we want to have.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But their customers are just so darn mean!!!
I don't think theyr'e saying you guys are mean. Just hopeless. No point trying to reach out and talk to people who are never happy no matter what you do. And it's a shame that a very very small vocal minority ruined it for those of us.
Howard A Treesong wrote: Tell that to the people who were last working on the Blood Bowl living rule book, didn't that get shut down and gutted by GW?
Well yes... you're allowed to use whatever rules you want. You're just not allowed to share them with anyone else.
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OldSkoolGoff wrote: I don't think theyr'e saying you guys are mean. Just hopeless. No point trying to reach out and talk to people who are never happy no matter what you do. And it's a shame that a very very small vocal minority ruined it for those of us.
And yet other companies, and divisions of GW themselves, have managed to maintain forums and such without the level of silliness that GW are complaining about.
The vocal minority didn't ruin it for you. GW ruined it for you by failing to properly engage their customer base, making a whole bunch of business decisions that parts of their customer base didn't like, and then blaming the resultant backlash on the internet.
WayneTheGame wrote: Now imagine if GW had some actual brains. Their twitter and Facebook pages would have WIP mockups of things weeks or months in advance, teasing upcoming things. They would have a way to engage with rules questions or feedback and actually maybe listen. They could submit playtest rules and get feedback and see how things really work.
Instead they basically dictate and say don't like it go away, we do things this way and it's the best way ever and if you disagree then you aren't the kind of customer we want to have.
No they don't.
They just flat out do not, as a business, communicate with their customers. They don't even acknowledge the existence of customer dissatisfaction, never mind tell disgruntled customers to go away.
Its the diehard fanboys telling people on GW's behalf to shut up and go away, not GW itself.
I don't think theyr'e saying you guys are mean. Just hopeless. No point trying to reach out and talk to people who are never happy no matter what you do. And it's a shame that a very very small vocal minority ruined it for those of us.
Interesting to see that other game companies forums aren't destroyed by that "very very small vocal minority" and thrive, must be because GW is "special".
I don't think theyr'e saying you guys are mean. Just hopeless. No point trying to reach out and talk to people who are never happy no matter what you do. And it's a shame that a very very small vocal minority ruined it for those of us.
Funny how the Black Library and Forgeworld Facebook pages had none of that and GW still shut them down...
I don't think theyr'e saying you guys are mean. Just hopeless. No point trying to reach out and talk to people who are never happy no matter what you do. And it's a shame that a very very small vocal minority ruined it for those of us.
Funny how the Black Library and Forgeworld Facebook pages had none of that and GW still shut them down...
It's weird, almost like....if someone is pleased with the product, there's less complaining. Hmmm....I wonder.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But their customers are just so darn mean!!!
I don't think theyr'e saying you guys are mean. Just hopeless. No point trying to reach out and talk to people who are never happy no matter what you do. And it's a shame that a very very small vocal minority ruined it for those of us.
This!
I am frequently concerned for my hobby based on the insane vitriol on this website and its ilk. Then I go to the FLGS and have a great time.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But their customers are just so darn mean!!!
I don't think theyr'e saying you guys are mean. Just hopeless. No point trying to reach out and talk to people who are never happy no matter what you do. And it's a shame that a very very small vocal minority ruined it for those of us.
This!
I am frequently concerned for my hobby based on the insane vitriol on this website and its ilk. Then I go to the FLGS and have a great time.
Insane Vitriol?
Where?
have you confused an OT thread about religion or Obamacare with the one where we discuss the CEO of Games workshop admitting that they do not care what customers want or say? (see investors report).
I really want to give GW my hobby spend but they slam the door in my face at every opportunity.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But their customers are just so darn mean!!!
I don't think theyr'e saying you guys are mean. Just hopeless. No point trying to reach out and talk to people who are never happy no matter what you do. And it's a shame that a very very small vocal minority ruined it for those of us.
This!
I am frequently concerned for my hobby based on the insane vitriol on this website and its ilk. Then I go to the FLGS and have a great time.
Ah yes we're all whiners and GW is fine.
Do yourself a favor and actually read what people are saying before you spout this same tired BS yet again. It seems every so often some new poster shows up and rehashes the same old "I'm having fun, GW is doing great, just whiners on the internet complain about everything" argument when that isn't the case at all. Now I'm sorry if I sound rude but it gets very old when we've had this talk multiple times and yet there's always someone new to chime in with the pro-GW argument that's been debunked many times over already.
This isn't just some group of bitter cheapskates complaining on the internet. The financials show that the company is not doing that well, and most of us "whiners" would give GW our money again and play the game again if they actually showed they care and are concerned about something beyond milking people for cash.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But their customers are just so darn mean!!!
I don't think theyr'e saying you guys are mean. Just hopeless. No point trying to reach out and talk to people who are never happy no matter what you do. And it's a shame that a very very small vocal minority ruined it for those of us.
This!
I am frequently concerned for my hobby based on the insane vitriol on this website and its ilk. Then I go to the FLGS and have a great time.
Your hobby?
That's "buying things from Games Workshop" right?
Because those of us that consider our hobby wargaming may be a little concerned with what GW's actions are doing to our hobby. Concerns that are frequently supported by information, evidence or experience, whereas those that claim to not share those concerns frequently resort to nothing but hand waving, unsubstantiated statements and personal attacks.
WayneTheGame wrote: Now imagine if GW had some actual brains. Their twitter and Facebook pages would have WIP mockups of things weeks or months in advance, teasing upcoming things. They would have a way to engage with rules questions or feedback and actually maybe listen. They could submit playtest rules and get feedback and see how things really work.
Instead they basically dictate and say don't like it go away, we do things this way and it's the best way ever and if you disagree then you aren't the kind of customer we want to have.
They don't do that at all, man. They just put stuff out there. Here's how it would work your way.
GW teases the new Dark Eldar codex. Maybe they release the relics or something. There are 6,000 responses within the hour.
Response 1: "Wow. SO. BAD. How am I going to compete with wave serpents?????" (3,340 likes, a thread with 400 responses, half of which tell the OP he's an idiot for assuming he's only going to fight wave serpents, the other half telling him that wave serpents all they see in their local meta)
Response 2: "Anyone want to buy my Dark Eldar?" (4,000 likes, a thread with 70 responses, 45 of which are asking for a price, 25 of which are links to their own ebay auctions)
Response 3: "NICE! " (3,000 likes, a thread in which the people who posted the other two comments call this guy a complete idiot)
That's pretty much the exact formula for what happens here, why would their facebook be any different?
TotalBiscuit explained that listening to his subscribers turned something he loved into a complete agony. He developed CANCER, for God's sake.
Colpicklejar wrote: TotalBiscuit explained that listening to his subscribers turned something he loved into a complete agony. He developed CANCER, for God's sake.
TotalBiscuit is an idiot. I listened to his World of Warcraft podcast for a while until he ragequit due to making outdated content more accessible that he hadn't done which was somehow a threat to everything good and pure in the world. Whether or not it was an act to get out of podcasting, the guy has a self-inflated ego.
GW has stated they don't listen to feedback, and their attitude seems to be that anything with the Citadel logo will get bought because it's a Citadel miniature.
prplehippo wrote: Don't you guys think that it's gotten to the point that no matter what GW does people will still complain about it?
It just seems to me they are "damned if they do, damned if they don't".
To be honest, I agree with you. Everything is complain, I get some of it but some of it is ridiculous! At this stage Games workshop can't do anything without slack. Arguably it is there fault for bringing the company down but they can't be ALL bad, we buy and love there minis don't we?
Maybe if GW has spent the past decade fostering good will instead of stoney silence things might be different now.
As for not engaging customers, every other wargame company does it to great success. The build up of excitement for Operation Ice storm was a great thing, far better than if they had just released it with two days of warning.
MWHistorian wrote: Maybe if GW has spent the past decade fostering good will instead of stoney silence things might be different now.
As for not engaging customers, every other wargame company does it to great success. The build up of excitement for Operation Ice storm was a great thing, far better than if they had just released it with two days of warning.
This exactly. Sure, by now it's hopeless for GW - bringing up forums or trying to engage the internet can only lead to failure without a LOT of effort - genuine effort - put behind it on the part of GW.
That's not the internet's fault. That's GW's fault for letting it get that far in the first place. If you tell your boss repeatedly over the course of 10 years or so that he's requiring too many hours and not paying enough, when he finally comes to you and says "I heard you're looking for a new job - here's some extra money!" it's too little, too late.
Yeah, it's terrible. GW can't raise prices hand over fist, write some of the worst rules in the wargaming hobby, repeatedly and observably declare their contempt for customers, extort those in the few parts of the world that don't happen to be Britain, treat indy retailers like ticks that have to be burned off, (try to) squash little model makers for making something that GW doesn't own, bully authors who happen to use and arrange words of the English language etc. etc. in peace, without some spotty little goit somehow coming to the conclusion that all of that isn't productive or admirable.
You anti-GW whiners should be ashamed for jumping to such a wild conclusion.
prplehippo wrote: Don't you guys think that it's gotten to the point that no matter what GW does people will still complain about it?
It just seems to me they are "damned if they do, damned if they don't".
To be honest, I agree with you. Everything is complain, I get some of it but some of it is ridiculous! At this stage Games workshop can't do anything without slack. Arguably it is there fault for bringing the company down but they can't be ALL bad, we buy and love there minis don't we?
A lot of us don't buy and love their minis anymore because they're overpriced and not good in the game that they forget is the reason for most sales. They can't do anything without slack because they don't do anything worthwhile. It's all overpriced designed to be impulse bought using 1980s era business tactics with zero thought to the actual game.
The game is bad, and GW is bad. The only redeeming factor is that the minis are actually pretty good, but compounded by overly high price-to-value ratio for no reason other than GW feels that their customers--sorry, hobbyists--are suckers who will buy it at any price just to own GW minis.
If they had reasonable price to value ratio on figures (i.e. not giving me a box of 5 guys for $30 when I'll usually need 10, and not making me buy lots of that because they keep making the game larger and larger to push buying more and more) and actually balanced the rules, I'd sell my soul back to GW in a heartbeat because I love the fluff and the story of the game. But they don't, and therefore I return the favor by playing a game made by a company that doesn't make me feel like they're cheating me and with rules that are actually balanced.
Vermis wrote: Yeah, it's terrible. GW can't raise prices hand over fist, write some of the worst rules in the wargaming hobby, repeatedly and observably declare their contempt for customers, extort those in the few parts of the world that don't happen to be Britain, treat indy retailers like ticks that have to be burned off, (try to) squash little model makers for making something that GW doesn't own, bully authors who happen to use and arrange words of the English language etc. etc. in peace, without some spotty little goit somehow coming to the conclusion that all of that isn't productive or admirable.
You anti-GW whiners should be ashamed for jumping to such a wild conclusion.
prplehippo wrote: Don't you guys think that it's gotten to the point that no matter what GW does people will still complain about it?
It just seems to me they are "damned if they do, damned if they don't".
Have you read the complaints?
Have you read the solutions?
Have you understood GW actions and why people are complaining?
This GW unable to win excuse is tired and wrong. GW can win. I can absolutely, beyond a sliver of doubt that lowering prices/increasing value would be universally met with positivity. I can absolutely assure you that a reasonable preview of upcoming products and general news would be met with thumbs up from everyone. I can assure you a ruleset that has been play tested and proofread by a selected team of closed beta testers and checked by an open beta would be welcome by everyone. I can assure you that re-introducing specialist games would be something GW could win with.
Honestly, saying GW can't win is the laziest argument in GW's defense. Its complete and total nonsense, and if other companies can do it, GW can too.
Blacksails wrote: Its complete and total nonsense, and if other companies can do it, GW can too.
Honestly, at this point it's not nonsense. Without a lot of work and change (something GW is obviously unwilling or unable to do) GW will not be able to win back the community it created.
It's just generated too much bad will.
Honestly, at this point it's not nonsense. Without a lot of work and change (something GW is obviously unwilling or unable to do) GW will not be able to win back the community it created.
It's just generated too much bad will.
Bolded the important bit.
Yeah, it'd take a lot of work and change. But if they want a positive community, they'll have to start sooner rather than later before there's no community left.
I do agree, there's a lot of bad will from all their actions, but I don't think its insurmountable.
Personally, a price drop and bringing back BFG would change my tune immensely.
Blacksails wrote: Its complete and total nonsense, and if other companies can do it, GW can too.
Honestly, at this point it's not nonsense. Without a lot of work and change (something GW is obviously unwilling or unable to do) GW will not be able to win back the community it created.
It's just generated too much bad will.
I disagree. I think you're right that for some, they are irredeemable, and nothing they do will be good enough.
I think the majority, and I include myself in this, are just looking for an excuse to run back to them like a toddler seeing their mummy after getting lost in the supermarket.
We just need to see a few things, neatly summarised by Blacksails already, and I think there would be a substantial and rapid sea change back in their favour.
Blacksails wrote: Its complete and total nonsense, and if other companies can do it, GW can too.
Honestly, at this point it's not nonsense. Without a lot of work and change (something GW is obviously unwilling or unable to do) GW will not be able to win back the community it created.
It's just generated too much bad will.
True, but the nonsense is the idea that there's some gang of internet trolls just going around crapping on everything GW says or does, when every complaint is valid and is something GW brought upon itself by refusing to acknowledge that they make and sell a tabletop wargame, not collectors figures, and build their business around that concept. Their entire business model is wrong as it's the game which is what enticed people and keeps people playing, and the game is the thing that they ignore as much as possible.
Honestly, at this point it's not nonsense. Without a lot of work and change (something GW is obviously unwilling or unable to do) GW will not be able to win back the community it created.
It's just generated too much bad will.
Bolded the important bit.
Yeah, it'd take a lot of work and change. But if they want a positive community, they'll have to start sooner rather than later before there's no community left.
I do agree, there's a lot of bad will from all their actions, but I don't think its insurmountable.
Personally, a price drop and bringing back BFG would change my tune immensely.
I think that, taking GWs current attitude and direction into account, its insurmountable.
prplehippo wrote: Don't you guys think that it's gotten to the point that no matter what GW does people will still complain about it?
...
To some degree that is true because on the internet there is always someone who will complain about something.
The complaints against GW are not all like that, though.
They genuinely have done a lot in the past five years to make people complain. They have done some other stuff that people liked.
I think that's very much the case. You will always get a small percentage that will complain; if God/Vishnu came down on a cloud and presented them with the perfect miniature, they would find something wrong with it. The other end of the scale is someone happily extolling the virtues of some mis-cast, over-priced crap and giving the thumbs up as an army they just spent hundreds on is squatted. But, there is a much more sizeable middle ground of fans that move with the flow of the kind of product a company releases, the way the company behaves. They create the general 'atmosphere' of how a company is perceived on the various forums, their volume having more of an effect than the extremes on either end of the scale.
What's incredible I think is that GW had built up so much good will over the years. I think so many of us who played the games through the late 80's, early and mid 90's had such good memories of gaming at that time. The last ten years or so, accelerating over the past few, has just been a relentless BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM, of Ivan Drago hitting with relentless lefts and rights as that good will has been pummelled into the ground. Of Finecast, the price rises, cutting of staff and playing areas, war on independents and legal war on fans and 3rd party producers, I could go on.. all of it has combined to the point where people were seriously using the phrase 'summer of terror' back in 2012.
I know a lot of it is perhaps part of the process of GW becoming a large company with different priorities, but its effects have been felt more perhaps because of what small and personal industry this has always been. In my mind it's a disgrace how it has fallen so far into the kind of sociopathic nightmare of a company that we are presented with today - with luck eventually the money men will notice that perhaps the ship is off course, and start to look at the reasons why; start engaging with their core fan base and treating them with respect again, using independents and small clubs as an opportunity to expand rather than contract, introduce prices that are affordable at the entry level.
prplehippo wrote: Don't you guys think that it's gotten to the point that no matter what GW does people will still complain about it?
It just seems to me they are "damned if they do, damned if they don't".
Well, Dakka is probably the most civilized discussion forum on the topic, and it's a cesspool of hatred and bitterness as far as the eye can see, up to and including its moderators. So, yes.
prplehippo wrote: Don't you guys think that it's gotten to the point that no matter what GW does people will still complain about it?
It just seems to me they are "damned if they do, damned if they don't".
Well, Dakka is probably the most civilized discussion forum on the topic, and it's a cesspool of hatred and bitterness as far as the eye can see, up to and including its moderators. So, yes.
prplehippo wrote: Don't you guys think that it's gotten to the point that no matter what GW does people will still complain about it?
No matter what any company does, some people will complain about it, because different people like different things.
However, when the complaints start to outweigh the positive comments? That's the point where any sensible company stops and says 'You know what? Maybe, just maybe, we're doing something wrong...' rather than just shutting down all communication and insisting that the problem is just with a few malcontents on the internet despite all evidence to the contrary.
It just seems to me they are "damned if they do, damned if they don't".
'Don't do anything at all' is not the only alternative to GW's current business direction.
GW do still get plenty of praise when they do something praise-worthy. Plenty of people had good things to say about the Imperial Knight when the model was first shown. Plenty of people had similar good things to say about the new Stormtrooper models. Hell, there still plenty of people who supposedly enjoy 7th edition, as mind boggling as I personally find that to be.
The reason that GW cop a lot of flak isn't that they are GW. It's that they do a lot of stuff that a lot of people don't like.
This isn't just people being obnoxious on the internet... I see these exact same complaints out in the 'real' world. GW are in a bed entirely of their own making.
However, when the complaints start to outweigh the positive comments? That's the point where any sensible company stops and says 'You know what? Maybe, just maybe, we're doing something wrong...'
No, that's your delusional belief. If a company is still making money, they'd be foolish to care what a horde of screaming idiots say.
In fact, they'd be terrible at their jobs if they did.
Case study: Transformers 2 Metacritic: 35%, Rotten Tomatoes 19%.
According to you, Transformers 3 either shouldn't have been made or should have been in some way much different (it was made, it was the same).
Transformers 3 box office: $1.1 billion.
Scream into the wind all you want, it's meaningless.
According to you, Transformers 3 either shouldn't have been made or should have been in some way much different (it was made, it was the same).
Actually, there were a number of differences in Transformers 3 as a result of customer feedback from the first two (like the slowed-down transformations, for example). Sure, they didn't change everything that everyone complained about... but they at least listened to the complaints.
The Internet is the Chaos god of Hatred.
And again with this weird assumption that the complaints are just an internet thing.
Don't assume that those who criticize GW are brainless haters (well maybe some)
Most of us don't want to see the company we grew up with and love, destroy themselves with
illogical business decisions.
GW is slowly killing their own market share and we as concerned consumers, have a right to
voice those concerns.
It is like when the American car industry was ignorant of the Japanese car makers, "Our gas gussling
huge unsafe car are okay, no one wants these tiny cheap fuel efficient cars!" well you know how that went.
They changed with the market.
Colpicklejar wrote: TotalBiscuit explained that listening to his subscribers turned something he loved into a complete agony. He developed CANCER, for God's sake.
Wow. That's probably the best example of post hoc ergo propter hoc I've ever seen.
And ignoring your customer base is lunacy.
DarknessEternal wrote: Well, Dakka is probably the most civilized discussion forum on the topic, and it's a cesspool of hatred and bitterness as far as the eye can see, up to and including its moderators. So, yes.
And DimnessEternal returns, never failing to amuse.
Colpicklejar wrote: TotalBiscuit explained that listening to his subscribers turned something he loved into a complete agony. He developed CANCER, for God's sake.
Wow. That's probably the best example of post hoc ergo propter hoc I've ever seen.
And ignoring your customer base is lunacy.
DarknessEternal wrote: Well, Dakka is probably the most civilized discussion forum on the topic, and it's a cesspool of hatred and bitterness as far as the eye can see, up to and including its moderators. So, yes.
And DimnessEternal returns, never failing to amuse.
Both myself and DarknessEternal were arguing that the internet is a hateful place. Your response to this argument is to call us both morons. THANKS, BRO.
Colpicklejar wrote: TotalBiscuit explained that listening to his subscribers turned something he loved into a complete agony. He developed CANCER, for God's sake.
Wow. That's probably the best example of post hoc ergo propter hoc I've ever seen.
And ignoring your customer base is lunacy.
DarknessEternal wrote: Well, Dakka is probably the most civilized discussion forum on the topic, and it's a cesspool of hatred and bitterness as far as the eye can see, up to and including its moderators. So, yes.
And DimnessEternal returns, never failing to amuse.
Both myself and DarknessEternal were arguing that the internet is a hateful place. Your response to this argument is to call us both morons. THANKS, BRO.
DarknessEternal wrote: Well, Dakka is probably the most civilized discussion forum on the topic, and it's a cesspool of hatred and bitterness as far as the eye can see, up to and including its moderators. So, yes.
DarknessEternal wrote: No, that's your delusional belief. If a company is still making money, they'd be foolish to care what a horde of screaming idiots say.
Calls Dakka Dakka a cesspool and a horde of screaming idiots
> complains about hatred and bitterness.
DE is as much a part of that "cesspool of hatred and bitterness" as everybody else.
Colpicklejar wrote: TotalBiscuit explained that listening to his subscribers turned something he loved into a complete agony. He developed CANCER, for God's sake.
Wow. That's probably the best example of post hoc ergo propter hoc I've ever seen.
And ignoring your customer base is lunacy.
DarknessEternal wrote: Well, Dakka is probably the most civilized discussion forum on the topic, and it's a cesspool of hatred and bitterness as far as the eye can see, up to and including its moderators. So, yes.
And DimnessEternal returns, never failing to amuse.
Both myself and DarknessEternal were arguing that the internet is a hateful place. Your response to this argument is to call us both morons. THANKS, BRO.
Please indicate where H.B.M.C. has called you or DarknessEternal a moron. If possible do it by bolding and changing the colour of the statement where he says it...
Criticism of your opinions isn't the same as a personal insult and you guys really should let go of that persecution complex that you seem to have, it is getting kind of old.
Both myself and DarknessEternal were arguing that the internet is a hateful place. Your response to this argument is to call us both morons. THANKS, BRO.
Yeah, no one called you a moron. They said your arguments such, which they do, but never attacked your person.
The closest I can see is HBMC called Darkness Eternal, Dimness Eternal.
Either way, its pretty comical how the two of you come here to tell us how awful of a place Dakka is. You don't see the irony? And don't confuse pointing out the errors in your argument for calling you a moron.
The 'THANKS, BRO' really convinces me you're here looking for a rational debate, rather than incite some sort of inflammatory responses by calling this place a cesspool.
Maybe try being less hyperbolic and negative in your posts?
Let's not get distracted by some people attacking posters who express criticism for GW or who are trying to defend some of their actions by getting all ad hominem.
Anyone who's been around for more than a little bit knows this is ultimately where these threads end up heading because mud slinging is all anyone defending the IP moat and Copyright Castle has, but it only works if we let it.
Azreal13 wrote: Let's not get distracted by some people attacking posters who express criticism for GW or who are trying to defend some of their actions by getting all ad hominem.
Anyone who's been around for more than a little bit knows this is ultimately where these threads end up heading because mud slinging is all anyone defending the IP moat and Copyright Castle has, but it only works if we let it.
I do find it amusing that all these type of threads inevitably get closed because the pro-GW crowd can't bring up anything other than how people are whiners and shouldn't come here if they no longer play, while not refuting any actual points raised.
This is what, the tenth such thread in the past few months alone?
Azreal13 wrote: Let's not get distracted by some people attacking posters who express criticism for GW or who are trying to defend some of their actions by getting all ad hominem.
Anyone who's been around for more than a little bit knows this is ultimately where these threads end up heading because mud slinging is all anyone defending the IP moat and Copyright Castle has, but it only works if we let it.
True words.
All they can do is launch baseless negative attacks. Let's keep it civil and rational.
GW's business practices are indefensible.
Azreal13 wrote: Let's not get distracted by some people attacking posters who express criticism for GW or who are trying to defend some of their actions by getting all ad hominem.
Anyone who's been around for more than a little bit knows this is ultimately where these threads end up heading because mud slinging is all anyone defending the IP moat and Copyright Castle has, but it only works if we let it.
True words.
All they can do is launch baseless negative attacks. Let's keep it civil and rational.
GW's business practices are indefensible.
I wouldn't say indefensible. I would say illogical for a company seeking long term health and continued market growth.
But someone will surely find a way to defend them. They always do
$285+ for rules from a company that does not want to make your rules for you.... mmmkay
Yep. When the cost of your mandatory rulebooks is more than the cost of an army from the company putting out their rules for free you can't claim you 'are a model company, not a rules company'.
$285+ for rules from a company that does not want to make your rules for you.... mmmkay
And that's why I quit playing 40k with my orks
Yeah...today I was feeling a bit interested in the new DE book since it seems like it's not too bad. But since I haven't gotten the 7th ed. Main Rulebook, I'm looking at at least $135 to make that book functional. And who knows how long these books will be around- were GW to say "we hope to use these new 7th codexes as a jumping-off point to focus on additional 40k rules materials" as opposed to their current 2 year-ish cycle per book, I might actually get them. But I'm not about to be burned again, for even *more* money than previous editions!
That and I look at the RPG books running around, chock-full of seriously-worked-over content, and I can't understand why a codex whose unit pictures are all just photos of studio models is worth that much.
I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but have you all noticed how GW has opted for the 'DLC' route of releases since the drop of seventh/end of sixth? I mean, whoever posted that Ork codex/supplement/core rulebook breakdown hit the nail pretty much on the head. They break down a pretty simple product, that's already working between say, two books (codex and rulebook), into multiple supplements, a more expensive rulebook that caters more to the competitive circuit (with little or worse updates done to an already archaic ruleset), and then up the price of everything 15-35%.
If this were a video game company, I'd just 'lol' at everyone bitching and point at the massive sales being made in lieu of the tsunami of complaints. But, oddly, for every one person I see defending GW (or rather commenting that it's not too bad) I find five people pointing out just how bad things are. Generally, I find that the wargaming community (and by extension, this site) tends to be exceedingly critical of every aspect of the hobby - which isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when we shell out thousands of dollars for it.
Frankenberry wrote: I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but have you all noticed how GW has opted for the 'DLC' route of releases since the drop of seventh/end of sixth? I mean, whoever posted that Ork codex/supplement/core rulebook breakdown hit the nail pretty much on the head. They break down a pretty simple product, that's already working between say, two books (codex and rulebook), into multiple supplements, a more expensive rulebook that caters more to the competitive circuit (with little or worse updates done to an already archaic ruleset), and then up the price of everything 15-35%.
If this were a video game company, I'd just 'lol' at everyone bitching and point at the massive sales being made in lieu of the tsunami of complaints. But, oddly, for every one person I see defending GW (or rather commenting that it's not too bad) I find five people pointing out just how bad things are. Generally, I find that the wargaming community (and by extension, this site) tends to be exceedingly critical of every aspect of the hobby - which isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when we shell out thousands of dollars for it.
GW is not the hobby. I love the hobby of wargamming but I don't like what GW is doing for the hobby.
Frankenberry wrote: I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but have you all noticed how GW has opted for the 'DLC' route of releases since the drop of seventh/end of sixth? I mean, whoever posted that Ork codex/supplement/core rulebook breakdown hit the nail pretty much on the head. They break down a pretty simple product, that's already working between say, two books (codex and rulebook), into multiple supplements, a more expensive rulebook that caters more to the competitive circuit (with little or worse updates done to an already archaic ruleset), and then up the price of everything 15-35%.
If this were a video game company, I'd just 'lol' at everyone bitching and point at the massive sales being made in lieu of the tsunami of complaints. But, oddly, for every one person I see defending GW (or rather commenting that it's not too bad) I find five people pointing out just how bad things are. Generally, I find that the wargaming community (and by extension, this site) tends to be exceedingly critical of every aspect of the hobby - which isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when we shell out thousands of dollars for it.
GW is not the hobby. I love the hobby of wargamming but I don't like what GW is doing for the hobby.
GW or no, you can't deny that wargamers are critical of everything.
Yeah, there's no reason the rules from all the Ork sources now couldn't have been included in a single codex, as an example. Even the fluff and pictures and art aren't anything worth buying from what I've seen. Hell, the new IG codex offered very little in new fluff and art, and we lost a lot of characters and small stuff, while gaining a few things of mixed usefulness.
I get that GW is a business that needs to make money. I can't understand that their business practices are conducive to any long term survival though. Releasing codices with less everything and shoring it up with dataslates, supplements and other nonsense later is just going to either bleed customers or turn them towards alternatives. The numbers for this Christmas will tell how this strategy has been working, but I can't see it working well.
All I know is that cutting content and re-selling it later for more is not a recipe for success.
I can't understand anyone who actually supports the trend of cutting content from codices; be they characters or wargear options, or units entirely, its entirely a negative aspect that can only be mitigated by adding new content of equal or greater status. Most new codices haven't done that, and while, for example, the latest IG dex gained tank commanders, the Wyvern, the Taurox, and Bullgryns, it lost most characters and many wargear options, as well as losing most of the arty section.
I shouldn't have to put together a list of pros and cons for a new editions codex.
You'd think a new codex for a new edition would have learned from the mistakes of the last one and build off that.
Anyways, I'm just bitter about my IG. The new dex just lacks any real soul. Much like most of GW's latest offerings, despite people claiming things like the new DE codex being the most unique codex so far.
Frankenberry wrote: I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but have you all noticed how GW has opted for the 'DLC' route of releases since the drop of seventh/end of sixth? I mean, whoever posted that Ork codex/supplement/core rulebook breakdown hit the nail pretty much on the head. They break down a pretty simple product, that's already working between say, two books (codex and rulebook), into multiple supplements, a more expensive rulebook that caters more to the competitive circuit (with little or worse updates done to an already archaic ruleset), and then up the price of everything 15-35%.
If this were a video game company, I'd just 'lol' at everyone bitching and point at the massive sales being made in lieu of the tsunami of complaints. But, oddly, for every one person I see defending GW (or rather commenting that it's not too bad) I find five people pointing out just how bad things are. Generally, I find that the wargaming community (and by extension, this site) tends to be exceedingly critical of every aspect of the hobby - which isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when we shell out thousands of dollars for it.
GW is not the hobby. I love the hobby of wargamming but I don't like what GW is doing for the hobby.
GW or no, you can't deny that wargamers are critical of everything.
I can actually.
Go to Warmachine's or Infinity's forums. You'll see a great deal of positivity. All that has to happen is for the company to give them things to be positive about.
Frankenberry wrote: I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but have you all noticed how GW has opted for the 'DLC' route of releases since the drop of seventh/end of sixth? I mean, whoever posted that Ork codex/supplement/core rulebook breakdown hit the nail pretty much on the head. They break down a pretty simple product, that's already working between say, two books (codex and rulebook), into multiple supplements, a more expensive rulebook that caters more to the competitive circuit (with little or worse updates done to an already archaic ruleset), and then up the price of everything 15-35%.
If this were a video game company, I'd just 'lol' at everyone bitching and point at the massive sales being made in lieu of the tsunami of complaints. But, oddly, for every one person I see defending GW (or rather commenting that it's not too bad) I find five people pointing out just how bad things are. Generally, I find that the wargaming community (and by extension, this site) tends to be exceedingly critical of every aspect of the hobby - which isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when we shell out thousands of dollars for it.
GW is not the hobby. I love the hobby of wargamming but I don't like what GW is doing for the hobby.
GW or no, you can't deny that wargamers are critical of everything.
I can actually.
Go to Warmachine's or Infinity's forums. You'll see a great deal of positivity. All that has to happen is for the company to give them things to be positive about.
And if I'd said that wargamers are whiny and see no good in anything, I would understand your reply. I did not, in fact, say that. I merely pointed out that wargamers are critical of their hobby.
And as Blacksails wrote, enthusiasts are like that. It wasn't an insult so stop replying as though it was.
But people are not very critical about wargaming in general. Its just GW. You can't blame the community when those same people have few if any bad things to say about Warmachine, infinity, x wing and the like.
Frankenberry wrote: I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but have you all noticed how GW has opted for the 'DLC' route of releases since the drop of seventh/end of sixth? I mean, whoever posted that Ork codex/supplement/core rulebook breakdown hit the nail pretty much on the head. They break down a pretty simple product, that's already working between say, two books (codex and rulebook), into multiple supplements, a more expensive rulebook that caters more to the competitive circuit (with little or worse updates done to an already archaic ruleset), and then up the price of everything 15-35%.
If this were a video game company, I'd just 'lol' at everyone bitching and point at the massive sales being made in lieu of the tsunami of complaints. But, oddly, for every one person I see defending GW (or rather commenting that it's not too bad) I find five people pointing out just how bad things are. Generally, I find that the wargaming community (and by extension, this site) tends to be exceedingly critical of every aspect of the hobby - which isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when we shell out thousands of dollars for it.
GW's target market is people who are happy to spend huge amounts of money on GW stuff.
This strategy has been developed in the past few years and its ultimate expression is the splitting of rulebooks into multiple, more expensive separate items.
We will see in January how successful this strategy has been.
jonolikespie wrote: But people are not very critical about wargaming in general. Its just GW. You can't blame the community when those same people have few if any bad things to say about Warmachine, infinity, x wing and the like.
1 - Yes, they are. Being critical isn't an insult.
2 - I'm not blaming anyone for anything, I made a statement about how GW is following the path of many video games developers (look at EA) and that the wargaming community notices this. My comment on wargamers being critical of their hobby is somehow being misconstrued into "everyone hates GW", when that's not what I said at all.
jonolikespie wrote: But people are not very critical about wargaming in general. Its just GW. You can't blame the community when those same people have few if any bad things to say about Warmachine, infinity, x wing and the like.
1 - Yes, they are. Being critical isn't an insult.
2 - I'm not blaming anyone for anything, I made a statement about how GW is following the path of many video games developers (look at EA) and that the wargaming community notices this. My comment on wargamers being critical of their hobby is somehow being misconstrued into "everyone hates GW", when that's not what I said at all.
Apologies if I misinterpreted your statement. I thought you were saying that gammers were critical of everything. (and thus could never be appeased.) But I think I understand what you're saying now.
GW is going the route of day one DLC. All the codexes are boring and bland so you can pay more to get the good stuff added on.
Frankenberry wrote: I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but have you all noticed how GW has opted for the 'DLC' route of releases since the drop of seventh/end of sixth? I mean, whoever posted that Ork codex/supplement/core rulebook breakdown hit the nail pretty much on the head. They break down a pretty simple product, that's already working between say, two books (codex and rulebook), into multiple supplements, a more expensive rulebook that caters more to the competitive circuit (with little or worse updates done to an already archaic ruleset), and then up the price of everything 15-35%.
I've got the 2E Chaos codex sitting on my shelf. As well as the "standard" Chaos Marine units, it also has daemons, and variant lists for the Red Corsairs, Daemon World and Chaos Cult armies. I think it came out for £15 back in the day. How much do you reckon all those options would set me back now?
prplehippo wrote: Don't you guys think that it's gotten to the point that no matter what GW does people will still complain about it?
I agree with this.
prplehippo wrote: It just seems to me they are "damned if they do, damned if they don't".
I don't agree with this. GWwill attract criticism for anything they do, but it's not because they're being held to unfair standards. It's because of the things they do, and will continue doing (although tbh, by this point in the cost-cutting cycle it seems likely that they no longer have the resources to do the things people want, but... well, the solution to that is to have spent the last ten years being a bit better at their jobs).
'People seem to criticise everything I do!'
'Well, you do kill puppies for fun. Perhaps if you stopped doing that, people wouldn't be so critical?'
'What? No, I'm gonna keep with the puppy thing. But I mean... no matter what I do, people won't stop giving me a hard time about it. It's like I can't win.'
For instance the Knight Titan was a popular model, fits the Imperial aesthetic, has good detail and paints up nicely.
Looked at with a critical eye it is rather expensive at £85 and has very few options of weapons, accessories or poseability. You need the rules, which are another £25, if you want actually to use it in a game.
These are fair, objective criticisms of the model. GW still sold plenty of them, I believe.
I'll just step in and say that half of that reply made me feel really good, and half of it did not. 40k has, for me at least, always been about having fun with my friends. Play loose with the rules, chat while you play, convert and paint your models to make them look awesome (by our standards anyway. there are much better people out there) and compliment each other on them, read the fluff and talk about that. I really like that. It's, well, fun. I can actually understand their decision not to hold tournaments because, for them, competitive play isn't the point of the game, so if players want to play that way they are welcome to, but it's not "officially supported". It would be like if Privateer Press had a "global campaign" for Warmachine. That's not the direction they have chosen to take with the product. Warmachine is mainly focused on competitive tournament style play. If people want to play campaigns or custom game formats they can but it's not something Privateer Press spends a lot of effort on.
The part about no communication though I do not like. However, again I can understand it because of how incredibly toxic a lot of the 40k community has gotten. I think it has kind of turned into a vicious feedback cycle where people are angry at GW because they don't have any communication (and other reasons, many of which are probably justified, and some of which probably aren't) but by this point if GW does open official communications, especially over the internet because our own OT forum can show you how that gets, we'd get so much stored up vitriol dumped out that it wouldn't do much good and GW would probably decide to close them down again. It's kind of sad really.
dementedwombat wrote: I'll just step in and say that half of that reply made me feel really good, and half of it did not. 40k has, for me at least, always been about having fun with my friends. Play loose with the rules, chat while you play, convert and paint your models to make them look awesome (by our standards anyway. there are much better people out there) and compliment each other on them, read the fluff and talk about that. I really like that. It's, well, fun. I can actually understand their decision not to hold tournaments because, for them, competitive play isn't the point of the game, so if players want to play that way they are welcome to, but it's not "officially supported". It would be like if Privateer Press had a "global campaign" for Warmachine. That's not the direction they have chosen to take with the product. Warmachine is mainly focused on competitive tournament style play. If people want to play campaigns or custom game formats they can but it's not something Privateer Press spends a lot of effort on.
Thing is, and let me preface this by saying that I absolutely agree that for me, like you, 40K is something to arse about with and have fun over, I have no desire to enter tournaments and don't care about winning as long as the game is fun and engaging for both players, it isn't that Warmachine is focused on competitive play, it is simply that because it is a better written ruleset, which is modified and adapted in a consultive way with the player base, it is simply better suited to competitive play. In essence they do have a global campaign, it's just they call it the World Championships.
There is no reason why 40K couldn't be equally tight, and with the, IMO, superior background also have a great range of campaign sourcebooks etc GW have market share, for the time being, leverage and capacity, as well as the creative and financial resources to make 40K the go to game that it is in danger of ceasing to be once more.
I sincerely believe this is possible, I don't even think it requires quite as much as others seem to think, fundamentally GW simply need to stop trying to railroad people into buying stuff and concentrate in making stuff people want to buy, honestly priced. Couple that with feedback, if even only from a limited number of people, as long as those people were qualified and independent of Nottingham, with regard to the state of the game, and things will improve.
agnosto wrote: I owned stock back when finecast first came out. I had picked up a Librarian and it was complete gack so I sent an extensive rant to Investor Relations detailing exactly what I thought about their "fine" product. A few days later I received a response from Tom Kirby; I'm not silly enough to think that Tom actually typed and sent the email but it was signed by him instead of "Investor Relations" though I'd almost believe he wrote it because it was chock full of the drivel he posts in the Chairman's Preamble on the earnings reports.
do you still have the emails or are they deleted?I want to see them.
dementedwombat wrote: The part about no communication though I do not like. However, again I can understand it because of how incredibly toxic a lot of the 40k community has gotten. I think it has kind of turned into a vicious feedback cycle where people are angry at GW because they don't have any communication (and other reasons, many of which are probably justified, and some of which probably aren't) but by this point if GW does open official communications, especially over the internet because our own OT forum can show you how that gets, we'd get so much stored up vitriol dumped out that it wouldn't do much good and GW would probably decide to close them down again. It's kind of sad really.
I don't know how communication could fix some of the things GW has done.
"Hey, sorry we tried to claim ownership of the words "space marine" and sue a children's book author. And by sorry, we mean we're sorry you found out about it."
In other realms though, communication *at least* one-way would help out immensely.
"Hey, I know we cut the life-cycle of the 40k rulebooks in half, but we did this to focus on a continuing project and to get all the books up the same page. We're not going to do it again" This ALONE would get me to buy the new (and expensive) books if there was some gauge on their value.
I wonder if it would even matter anymore if GW did try to turn things around, "making a product people want to buy instead of expecting everyone to buy what they make" as is often said. I mean if they're seriously considering re-branding now then even they might believe they're at the point where their name has been tarnished so much that nothing can save it.
I don't think the "tarnishing" of the name is a serious problem. I think it is the prices, the rapid deliberate obsolescence of rules, and the over-complication.
I know there are people who are morally outraged by GW's unethical business conduct such as attacking Spots the Space Marine and Chapter House. However most ex-customers probably care more about the practical issues that hit their wallet and enjoyment.
Frankenberry wrote: I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but have you all noticed how GW has opted for the 'DLC' route of releases since the drop of seventh/end of sixth? I mean, whoever posted that Ork codex/supplement/core rulebook breakdown hit the nail pretty much on the head. They break down a pretty simple product, that's already working between say, two books (codex and rulebook), into multiple supplements, a more expensive rulebook that caters more to the competitive circuit (with little or worse updates done to an already archaic ruleset), and then up the price of everything 15-35%.
I've got the 2E Chaos codex sitting on my shelf. As well as the "standard" Chaos Marine units, it also has daemons, and variant lists for the Red Corsairs, Daemon World and Chaos Cult armies. I think it came out for £15 back in the day. How much do you reckon all those options would set me back now?
Easily a hundred bucks, if not more. Which is sad considering GW has proven they can do things like your 2e codex, but they won't because the guys who are in charge are more interested in the bottom-line than the spirit of the game.
From a business perspective though the "spirit of the game" is only worth worrying about if it helps the bottom line.
GW's current strategy seems to me to be to greatly increase the cost of The HHHobby and accept that some people will drop out while loyal customers will spend a lot more money than before.
dementedwombat wrote: I'll just step in and say that half of that reply made me feel really good, and half of it did not. 40k has, for me at least, always been about having fun with my friends. Play loose with the rules, chat while you play, convert and paint your models to make them look awesome (by our standards anyway. there are much better people out there) and compliment each other on them, read the fluff and talk about that. I really like that. It's, well, fun
I can play loose with the rules in a well-written system. I'm just not obliged to play loose with the rules in order to make the game function or not spend five minutes flipping through a book to answer a rules question.
I can chat while I play in a well-written system. I don't know if you've played Warmachine or Infinity, but the players don't stand there in a grim silence of competitive intensity, you know.
I can read the fluff and talk about that in a well-written system. If you look into the backgrounds of Infinity or Warmachine, there's just as much interesting stuff going on in there.
The point I'm trying to make is, none of those good things require shoddy rules (and "having fun with my friends" certainly doesn't!). They're all the product of fans trying to work around the flaws of the system, rather than virtues in themselves.
Colpicklejar wrote: Both myself and DarknessEternal were arguing that the internet is a hateful place. Your response to this argument is to call us both morons. THANKS, BRO.
I never called you a moron. I called what you said a pure example of post hoc ergo propter hoc. If you don't know what that is and/or mistook that for me calling you a moron, then really you need to try a little harder.
As far as Dimness goes, I like to make fun of him, as he's one of the most vitriolic people at Dakka and constantly spews nonsense about how hateful everyone is (in a completely unironic manner, making it all the funnier), and he adds a certain air to any thread he visits. He's pure entertainment.
Kilkrazy wrote: I don't think the "tarnishing" of the name is a serious problem. I think it is the prices, the rapid deliberate obsolescence of rules, and the over-complication.
I know there are people who are morally outraged by GW's unethical business conduct such as attacking Spots the Space Marine and Chapter House. However most ex-customers probably care more about the practical issues that hit their wallet and enjoyment.
[Broad Generalizations to follow]
Not so much tarnishing - in the way that it would apply to regular companies. Outside the UK - there is no brand to be tarnished. No one knows of GW, 40K or the stuff they are slinging. That is what word of mouth marketing done by introverts gets you.
However, when you do in fact rely on word of mouth marketing by introverts...every last word counts. They may not be bothered to talk GW down, but they are also less likely to talk them up. There is likely even some psychology in play when people who were often picked on in school (and may still be for their core demographic) see a company "picking" on another small company, author or otherwise playing the part of the bully. Just being aware of those actions is often enough to lower the level of enthusiasm for a company and product. Combine that with everything else and it can be the proverbial straw on the camel.
Kilkrazy wrote: I don't think the "tarnishing" of the name is a serious problem. I think it is the prices, the rapid deliberate obsolescence of rules, and the over-complication.
I know there are people who are morally outraged by GW's unethical business conduct such as attacking Spots the Space Marine and Chapter House. However most ex-customers probably care more about the practical issues that hit their wallet and enjoyment.
Right, the unethical business decisions will only affect so many customers. The same thing goes with Walmart shoppers and purveyors of other stores that have spotty track records. Which is why I feel the second form of communication I mentioned is so important- it has become increasingly difficulty to ascertain the value of the books GW is putting out.
The books have gone up significantly in price, and it has become a question of whether they maintain good value. Are the books full of largely recycled material (i.e. art, background, rules)? How long will the book be valid within the current ruleset (which makes up a majority of what players use, especially in LGS environments). These things are going through my mind as I've been trying to decide whether to get into the current game again. I'd be looking at about $180 for the main rulebook and the Ork and DE codexes, not to mention the supplement books since they seem so vital to building decent lists these days. And while the sticker price has a significant shock value, I cannot ascertain if these books remain valid like previous releases, replaced within a 2-year time frame with a new (and slightly different) book.
I have to admit that, partly due to personal circumstances, but mainly for the reasons Accolade cites, I've been more willing to don an eye patch and wield a parrot in the last year than ever before - 3 years ago I'd buy every codex without thought purely to stay abreast of new rules and units.
Kilkrazy wrote: From a business perspective though the "spirit of the game" is only worth worrying about if it helps the bottom line.
This reminds me of an article I read after Steve Jobs died. It was about how Jobs' real lesson to business leaders was essentially 'A good way to convince people to buy your things is to make the things good' (no Apple flame wars please; let's agree that this author was an Apple fan, it doesn't matter). It was presented like forgotten lore.
'Obviously, we business guys like good things,but the basic humans? How would they even know?'
Azreal13 wrote: I have to admit that, partly due to personal circumstances, but mainly for the reasons Accolade cites, I've been more willing to don an eye patch and wield a parrot in the last year than ever before - 3 years ago I'd buy every codex without thought purely to stay abreast of new rules and units.
I bought the Astra M... nope, still can't write that out. I bought the Guard Codex out of loyalty and legacy. In a way it was a good thing, as as much as I hated that format of Codex (which had improved since the format before it, but only by a little), it wasn't long after that they swapped to the minimalist fluff/no artwork/giant photos style... and that's the worst format they've ever had.
can i say something positive here???
we'll, i'm going to anyway, because i love GW's miniatures...
i have many friends who are writers, sculptors, and painters for the company, and they are not "the company"...
they are not the ones who decide the policy or prices...
they are hard working artists with as much passion for the settings as the rest of us have...
it really sucks that it seems like so many people forget to give a crap about the hard work of so many people that goes into each new release...
i get that the prices are not to people's liking...
i love free stuff as much as the next guy, but i like that my friends get to earn a living doing what the enjoy...
the design studio is not Kirby and his cronies...
it is a bunch of dudes who like to make minis, art, and stories for us all to enjoy...
personally, there is no mini company out there that makes a product which inspires me to paint as much as a GW mini does...
the latest redesign of the Space Marine kits (Tactical, Sternguard, and Vanguard) has still got me excited, a year later...
the minis are slightly bigger, and even more awesome, than ever before...
so yeah, there are actually "collector" customers out there, who don't play the game, but love everything about the setting, and would rather have a GW mini over any of the alternatives...
i know, because i am one, and have been since 1984...
Azreal13 wrote: In essence they do have a global campaign, it's just they call it the World Championships.
Not in essence, they DO have a global campaign. In fact, they do four of them every single year in the Leagues.
Results are tracked by the EOs/PGs/stores and reported in. There's local winners as well as global "winners"(this year and last year in the form of which vault opens first, in previous years the specific factions could actually win the Leagues).
They even come complete with entirely new fiction.
jah-joshua wrote: can i say something positive here???
we'll, i'm going to anyway, because i love GW's miniatures...
i have many friends who are writers, sculptors, and painters for the company, and they are not "the company"...
they are not the ones who decide the policy or prices...
they are hard working artists with as much passion for the settings as the rest of us have...
it really sucks that it seems like so many people forget to give a crap about the hard work of so many people that goes into each new release...
i get that the prices are not to people's liking...
i love free stuff as much as the next guy, but i like that my friends get to earn a living doing what the enjoy...
the design studio is not Kirby and his cronies...
it is a bunch of dudes who like to make minis, art, and stories for us all to enjoy...
personally, there is no mini company out there that makes a product which inspires me to paint as much as a GW mini does...
the latest redesign of the Space Marine kits (Tactical, Sternguard, and Vanguard) has still got me excited, a year later...
the minis are slightly bigger, and even more awesome, than ever before...
so yeah, there are actually "collector" customers out there, who don't play the game, but love everything about the setting, and would rather have a GW mini over any of the alternatives...
i know, because i am one, and have been since 1984...
cheers
jah
We're talking about a for-profit company, not a charity. If they want my money, they have to work for it. Yes, their minis are fantastic (with some glaring exceptions) But just because an artist worked really hard that doesn't mean I should spend my money on the artwork. (As a professional artist, believe me, I know.)
It's the rules and horrible business practices that push people away.
were did i say, or even imply, that someone should spend their money on GW???
all i said is that i love the work they do, and buy what i like...
we already know you quit, dude...
you made a thread about it...
i am entitled to my opinion, too...
like i said, no other mini company out there has a product that inspires me to paint as much as Space Marines do, and have done for over 25 years...
my point is that it is one thing to despise the people running a company, but let's remember to give some kudos every once in a while to the hard working artists of the design studio...
was that not clear???
where did i say, "buy GW, people"???
i think you missed my point entirely...
jah-joshua wrote: were did i say, or even imply, that someone should spend their money on GW???
all i said is that i love the work they do, and buy what i like...
we already know you quit, dude...
you made a thread about it...
i am entitled to my opinion, too...
like i said, no other mini company out there has a product that inspires me to paint as much as Space Marines do, and have done for over 25 years...
my point is that it is one thing to despise the people running a company, but let's remember to give some kudos every once in a while to the hard working artists of the design studio...
was that not clear???
where did i say, "buy GW, people"???
i think you missed my point entirely...
cheers
jah
Nobody has said anything about the "hard working artists of the design studio". That doesn't mean the company is good.
jah-joshua wrote: my point is that it is one thing to despise the people running a company, but let's remember to give some kudos every once in a while to the hard working artists of the design studio... was that not clear???
Frankly, no, it wasn't.
Your post reads like fan boying over the studio because you happen to know some people in the studio and we should accept that prices are what they are because people need to be paid(which is true, but it's not the studio benefiting from these prices and many former studio members have stated as such).
it is one thing to walk away from something you don't like, but i read a lot of posts that are very much saying that they wish GW would die...
that would mean a lot of hard working artists would lose their jobs...
i am just showing my support for those people who have given me so much to enjoy in the last 30 years...
i am saying sometimes we forget about the human element under the bean-counters...
jah-joshua wrote: my point is that it is one thing to despise the people running a company, but let's remember to give some kudos every once in a while to the hard working artists of the design studio...
was that not clear???
Frankly, no, it wasn't.
Your post reads like fan boying over the studio because you happen to know some people in the studio and we should accept that prices are what they are because people need to be paid(which is true, but it's not the studio benefiting from these prices and many former studio members have stated as such).
where did i say you should accept the prices, or like something you don't???
why attack me as "fan boying" for being a hard working member of the industry, and having some friends that are lucky, and talented, enough to work in the studio...
i consider it an honor to know these guys...
why is that wrong???
Steelmage99 wrote: I find it sort of off-putting that this mail continually refers to the community as "customers" or "collectors".
Who are they kidding? If the game aspect of GW didn't exist nobody would buy their overpriced models.
I would. If you are buying GW models purely for the game, you should probably either look for a better ruleset or cheaper alternative models.
I (and I suspect many others too) buy models from GW because I like their look and the fluff behind them.
If it wasn't for the game, I might buy less models, but I'd still buy them.
jah-joshua wrote: it is one thing to walk away from something you don't like, but i read a lot of posts that are very much saying that they wish GW would die... that would mean a lot of hard working artists would lose their jobs...
i am just showing my support for those people who have given me so much to enjoy in the last 30 years... i am saying sometimes we forget about the human element under the bean-counters...
cheers jah
Hmm, ahh no I wasn't forgetting about them. Obviously GW has a number of people in the company that are good people. There are ALWAYS people in a company who are not in control, who do a good job day-in-and-day-out, and get crapped on my management's actions.
But we're not talking about these good people. This conversation is about the entity that has the single greatest impact on the direction of GW- the management. And it may end up being the case that GW gets run into the ground by the management, and it will certainly suck to see all those people's livelihoods get through into disarray like that, but their personal lives aren't a reason for me to keep investing in the GW brand. It sucks, but hey this is capitalism.
Steelmage99 wrote: I find it sort of off-putting that this mail continually refers to the community as "customers" or "collectors". Who are they kidding? If the game aspect of GW didn't exist nobody would buy their overpriced models.
I would. If you are buying GW models purely for the game, you should probably either look for a better ruleset or cheaper alternative models. I (and I suspect many others too) buy models from GW because I like their look and the fluff behind them. If it wasn't for the game, I might buy less models, but I'd still buy them.
GW, no matter what they may think, survive on the the "game". The models are nice, and the background is very interesting and engrossing, but without the promise of a "game" at the end people would never buy half the models they do. And sure, there are people who like to collect the models because, hey, the models are damn good. But that group buys a pittance of the overall models compared to everyone who buys with *at LEAST* the intention of playing (if only theoretically).
fair enough, Accolade, but again i ask, where did i say anyone should buy GW???
i was simply expressing which aspect of GW i love...
i could understand if my post was just overlooked as irrelevant, which it may be in this thread...
i think i may have misunderstood what we are talking about in this topic...
what i am surprised at is the knee-jerk reaction against me saying something nice about the studio, and how it was interpreted to mean, "buy GW, you ungrateful bastards", which is not what i said at all...
as to the subject of the second part of your post, i was also stating that i am one of those "collectors" that GW is always on about...
i have never been a gamer, but have always been a collector...
so it is not like the "collector" is some mythic beast that only exists in Kirby's imagination...
i bought my first blister pack 30 years ago, without ever knowing anything about the rules, or even that there was a game...
i just wanted to paint cool minis...
i know i am in the minority, and i am happy to do my thing without attacking anyone for their way of enjoying miniatures, or even people expressing their dissatisfaction...
i am not going to be silent about what i love, but rather express that i am one happy customer...
i am much more likely to keep quiet about the things i dislike, because i don't enjoy spreading negative waves...
jah-joshua wrote: it really sucks that it seems like so many people forget to give a crap about the hard work of so many people that goes into each new release...
i get that the prices are not to people's liking...
i love free stuff as much as the next guy, but i like that my friends get to earn a living doing what the enjoy...
Well....I actually agree entirely with what you say....but other companies have that too. And importantly, they usually convey it better. I can go onto the Spartan, Privateer or Wyrd websites and find blogs and development diaries where I can hear from the creators themselves about the love they put into their work. Compare that to GW's paranoid secrecy.
Azreal13 wrote: I have to admit that, partly due to personal circumstances, but mainly for the reasons Accolade cites, I've been more willing to don an eye patch and wield a parrot in the last year than ever before - 3 years ago I'd buy every codex without thought purely to stay abreast of new rules and units.
Same here. I own just over 20 (I think it's 26 but I'm not checking!) of the current publications that include rules for 40k and WHF. With the release of the Dark Eldar Codex it would now cost me over £1000 at RRP just to buy all the printed rules material I don't have.
I hear what you are saying. Unfortunately it could be that GW management and their actions will mean that the miniatures you love, that inspire your creative juices, will no longer be available to you in the future
For what its worth, GW currently have an array of minis I would love to buy and paint and kudos to the guys involved in creating them. But management have made it clear they do not want my custom, so I go elsewhere.
What i am surprised at is the knee-jerk reaction against me saying something nice about the studio, and how it was interpreted to mean, "buy GW, you ungrateful bastards", which is not what i said at all...
Not what I got from what you said at all. What I would say is that there is an element of 'if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem' occurring here. It is all very well saying that these people love their jobs and the setting they're creating within, but GW put out a lot of product, and the quality is spotty at best, for every Imperial Knight there's a Lord Of Skulls - now I'm sure there's people out there who simply go gaga over the Khornemower, but I'm just putting forward a personal best and worst.
I reckon, and this is purely finger in the air thinking here, that for every 5 kits GW release, we get one awesome one, three safe ones and one terrible one, and that's not an awesome hit rate. Black Library are probably about similar in the quality of their fiction I'd say too, the studio rules are probably worse than that. I'd say FW, while they continue to operate in their own little bubble, are probably the only GW division that bucks that trend significantly.
Now, all this wholly subjective reasoning leads us to one of only a handful of possible conclusions about the GW design studio. It's populated in the main by decidedly average talent, in which case fair play to them for landing a job with a secure income and more fool GW for not more aggressively pursuing or searching out design talent. Or alternatively, the GW studio artists, writers etc are all, or mainly, remarkable talents who are prevented from fully expressing that talent by corporate pressures. If this is the case, then the individuals have probably decided to sacrifice their artistic and creative integrity in order to land aforementioned wage packet, an understandable decision when mortgages and children are in the equation, or don't have the conviction in their own ability to make it on their own or secure a job for another studio, or, perhaps, simply don't have the courage to fight for something they are passionate about (which, given what is rumoured about GW internal culture, I find quite believable.)
All ways, to me at least, but I'm fairly confident from other's posts and conversations I've had I'm not of an unusual opinion, there are sculptors and companies such as Mierce or Kingdom Death that seem to have a much higher hit rate than GW. To try and somehow absolve the studio of at least part of the responsibility for GW's apparently fading power I find somewhat fallacious, a team of talented, passionate creative people at the heart of GW strike me as some of the best positioned people on the planet to positively influence the direction GW goes from here. If they don't, how can you say it isn't at least partially their fault?
jah-joshua wrote: fair enough, Accolade, but again i ask, where did i say anyone should buy GW???
i was simply expressing which aspect of GW i love... i could understand if my post was just overlooked as irrelevant, which it may be in this thread... i think i may have misunderstood what we are talking about in this topic...
what i am surprised at is the knee-jerk reaction against me saying something nice about the studio, and how it was interpreted to mean, "buy GW, you ungrateful bastards", which is not what i said at all...
as to the subject of the second part of your post, i was also stating that i am one of those "collectors" that GW is always on about... i have never been a gamer, but have always been a collector... so it is not like the "collector" is some mythic beast that only exists in Kirby's imagination... i bought my first blister pack 30 years ago, without ever knowing anything about the rules, or even that there was a game... i just wanted to paint cool minis...
i know i am in the minority, and i am happy to do my thing without attacking anyone for their way of enjoying miniatures, or even people expressing their dissatisfaction... i am not going to be silent about what i love, but rather express that i am one happy customer... i am much more likely to keep quiet about the things i dislike, because i don't enjoy spreading negative waves...
cheers jah
Fair enough, jah. I wasn't trying to attack you, so if I came across as such I do apologize. Damn GW management is tearing this dakka-family apart!
I do however stand by my opinions that GW management is foolish to continue down the track they are going. Continual alienation of the "game" aspect will only manage to convince everyone that GW does NOT produce games, and therefore their models are only for collecting purposes. Once that happens, the collectors will be fine and go on their way, but the HUGE portion of the customer base that at least fantasizing about putting their miniatures on the table will decide to go another direction. And I highly doubt GW will be able to survive on the backs of collectors alone. Or maybe they'll just become a boutique store and shed almost all of their assets. Either way that doesn't seem to be a positive direction.
Of course, I realize GW believes they are a game company. If not, they wouldn't be trying to wring every dollar and cent out of the cow labelled "codex".
If you look at some of the upper level people in GW's linked in page, you'll see things like Mark Wells being head of product design before he was CEO. The actually people in charge of GW's creative direction are not creatives.
@Azreal13: i don't claim to know how much influence the studio has with the execs, or even how much leeway they get...
i will say i wish it was significantly more than it seems to be...
one thing i do know is that Jes Goodwin has produced some of the most inspirational work in the industry for the entire 25-odd years i've been collecting Marines...
he is a very interesting person to have a chat with, and his sketchbooks are like a reflection of my imagination's wildest dreams come true, when it comes to mini design...
i highly doubt that he, even as the most influential studio sculptor, has the final say in what the studio actually produces, and how much those kits cost...
i never asked him, because in 2008, when i last spoke to him, GW was in an entirely different state than it is now...
i can say that Darren Lathem, who moved from the 'Eavy Metal team to sculpting a couple of years ago, is very proud of the work he did on the Space Marine kits a year ago, and rightly so, in my opinion...
Steve Buddle, who ran his own miniature company Spyglass for quite a few years, struggled hard to make it as an independent, and now seems relatively stress-free as a studio sculptor...
does he feel like he sold out???
i don't know...
i might just have to ask him...
our own Brother Tom seems quite happy on the 'Eavy Metal team, and proudly posts his studio minis on his Facebook page after the releases...
he does good work, and i am happy he is free of the grind of commissions and freelance work, that i deal with...
same goes for our own wickedcarrot, who is happily beavering away as one of the army painters in the studio...
some people are built for corporate work...
i am not, and thus i struggle to make a living off of mini painting...
i just happen to be happy for those who can pull off the gig...
i am not passing judgement one way or the other, just saying that i think the studio does some great work, regardless of how the execs are steering the ship...
@MWHistorian: we already know you no longer support GW's product, but remember that art appreciation is subjective...
just as many people dislike the aesthetic of PP's minis, though i love them...
people have said the same thing you just did about Logan Grimnar over the Epic mounted versions of Borka, Xerxis, and Lylith(sp?)...
i just happen to like all of them...
i am ambivilent about Logans's sled, but i think the man himself is an amazing sculpt, and look forward to a chance to paint him...
@ Accolade: i didn't feel like you were attacking me...
i did feel like Plataun4th was a bit out-of-line to say that my post reads like fan boying over the studio because i happen to know some of the artists...
like i said, i consider it an honor to know some of the sculptors, painters, and illustrators, and to be able to exchange ideas with them, and talk shop...
it makes me a better painter...
jah-joshua wrote: @Azreal13: i don't claim to know how much influence the studio has with the execs, or even how much leeway they get...
i will say i wish it was significantly more than it seems to be...
one thing i do know is that Jes Goodwin has produced some of the most inspirational work in the industry for the entire 25-odd years i've been collecting Marines...
he is a very interesting person to have a chat with, and his sketchbooks are like a reflection of my imagination's wildest dreams come true, when it comes to mini design...
i highly doubt that he, even as the most influential studio sculptor, has the final say in what the studio actually produces, and how much those kits cost...
i never asked him, because in 2008, when i last spoke to him, GW was in an entirely different state than it is now...
i can say that Darren Lathem, who moved from the 'Eavy Metal team to sculpting a couple of years ago, is very proud of the work he did on the Space Marine kits a year ago, and rightly so, in my opinion...
Steve Buddle, who ran his own miniature company Spyglass for quite a few years, struggled hard to make it as an independent, and now seems relatively stress-free as a studio sculptor...
does he feel like he sold out???
i don't know...
i might just have to ask him...
our own Brother Tom seems quite happy on the 'Eavy Metal team, and proudly posts his studio minis on his Facebook page after the releases...
he does good work, and i am happy he is free of the grind of commissions and freelance work, that i deal with...
same goes for our own wickedcarrot, who is happily beavering away as one of the army painters in the studio...
some people are built for corporate work...
i am not, and thus i struggle to make a living off of mini painting...
i just happen to be happy for those who can pull off the gig...
i am not passing judgement one way or the other, just saying that i think the studio does some great work, regardless of how the execs are steering the ship...
I agree, the studio does some great work, but just looking at the people you mention here, painters almost definitely aren't in a position to affect change any more than window dressers are in a position to influence how a department store is run, no matter how good they are, and while I agree the SM Veteran kits are very nice, I recently got some Sternguard myself, I would firmly put that in the safe category from what I was discussing before, they are a collection of really nice Space Marine bits, but fundamentally no different from anything produced since the 90s (hard to be edgy and new with a Space Marine kit admittedly, but still..)
Jes, I'm given to understand is more of a quarterback these days, and doesn't do so much actual sculpting, but it would be ignorant not to acknowledge his contribution. It would probably be him that could be considered the figurehead or focus of any issues originating from the creative side of the company though, now you mention him, as he has undoubtedly proven his talent and understanding of what makes good Warhammer miniatures many times over, and given his years of service and seniority, one has to wonder whether he genuinely thinks the more eccentric models are good, doesn't care or cares but is unable to do anything about it.
That Logan Grimnar would look great on a big feth-off rock. Can Logan Grimnar still be fielded on foot in his Terminator armour, or is the stupid chariot the only way he can be used now after the recent Codex?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: [...]while I agree the SM Veteran kits are very nice, I recently got some Sternguard myself, I would firmly put that in the safe category from what I was discussing before, they are a collection of really nice Space Marine bits, but fundamentally no different from anything produced since the 90s (hard to be edgy and new with a Space Marine kit admittedly, but still..)[...]
Well, to the best of my knowledge they've never done a True Scale kit for Space Marines, so there is that...
Come to think of it, a True Scale conversion kit (correctly proportioned torsos and limbs etc that can be combined with existing weapons and other bitz) would be fantastic if they ever relaunched Inquisition as a 28mm game as discussed on this forum a while back.
I lack the time, money and inclination to do an entire True Scale army, but 5-10 models for a proper skirmish scale game ala Kill Team or Inquisition? Definitely.
@Azrael13: i think we are almost talking past each other here...
my original post, and the rest since, are only about me expressing my appreciation for the work the sculptors, painters, illustrators, and fiction writers are doing...
your posts seem to be concerned about effecting change within the way GW is doing business...
we are not on the same subject...
i hear you, man...
like i said before, i guess i should not have posted my original thought in this thread, because it didn't really touch on the subject of something being rotten in the tower of GWHQ...
i was just expressing that i don't have a problem with the creative cats in the company, and also the fact that i am one of the mythical collectors, which a few people had mentioned not existing...
i'm done derailing this thread now...
Edit: @Shadow Captain Edithae: Logan comes stock in the Termie armor, and then the Chariot is an add-on, according to the new Codex...
We're not talking past each other really, you tried to make the point that 'corporate' GW are the bad guys and that 'creative' GW are good people, I was merely trying (and, apparently, failing!) to say that the whole "for evil to flourish all it takes is for good men to do nothing" idea applies, and therefore regardless of how decent individuals may be, the whole design department is at least partially culpable, when they're not always putting out work of mind blowing quality, for the hole that GW finds itself, if not in, windmilling it's arms on the edge of.
Were the rules to be top notch, the complaints about balance, day 1 DLC and their cost would become muted, if not disappear entirely, if the sculpts were consistently top notch, the issues about poor value would likely follow suit. These are issues firmly in the hands of the design department, even if they are generated by managerial pressure.
And my point was that the individuals of the creative team are irrelevant in this discussion.
Maybe they're outstanding guys. I don't know. GW keeps them locked away in an ivory tower so all I can judge them on is their work which has been the technical aspect has been truly astounding. (Though I'd fire whoever made the Taurox.) As an artist and author, I get what you're saying and talent should be recognized and rewarded.
But this conversation's about GW as a whole and as such, they're utterly lacking.
i did feel like Plataun4th was a bit out-of-line to say that my post reads like fan boying over the studio because i happen to know some of the artists... like i said, i consider it an honor to know some of the sculptors, painters, and illustrators, and to be able to exchange ideas with them, and talk shop... it makes me a better painter...
cheers jah
I'm sorry if you felt slighted or insulted by it, I was just stating that that's how it reads as opposed to how you meant it to come across since you asked if your intention wasn't obvious. I know I sound like a fanboy when I discuss the art for PP since I know the Art Director personally. There's also a big difference over something reading like fanboying and it actually being fanboying(you'll note I never actually said it was or that your were doing so).
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: That Logan Grimnar would look great on a big feth-off rock. Can Logan Grimnar still be fielded on foot in his Terminator armour, or is the stupid chariot the only way he can be used now after the recent Codex?
You can still field him on foot, but the only way to get the model is to buy the chariot. And presumably a base, since in a fit of marketing 'genius' they made the model slot right into a slotta-base-sized circle on the chariot rather than making it a removable piece...
Given that the response from GW was that the rules don't matter, it's the collecting and painting of their stuff... does this mean that you & a mate can take you GW armies to a GW store and play games using some else's ruleset? Also if rules are a side issue, why bother producing great big expensive hardbacks? Why not produce free downloadable rules and Codexes that encourage you to buy more models? Surely that would be cheaper and work just as well?
