This thread is NOT going to be like other threads about 'balancing' armies which are actually threads about buffing your army silly. What I want in a codex is one that is not complained about, not considered 'OP' and stays loyal to the fluff.

Some changes should be the removal of Supportive Fire. It was fun whilst it lasted, but its against the fluff. What I believe should happen is that it should be swapped with Darkstrider's Fighting Retreat rule. This would mean that Tau would remain unique, but instead of avoiding combat through completely destroying the enemy from overwatch, they would get to fire overwatch and then fall back d6 inches, increasing the charge range for enemies.

Markerlights shouldn't be able to boost overwatch. Snapshots in general, yes, but not for overwatch.

Railguns should be buffed, perhaps removing multiple hullpoints on a pen result or something?

The Ion Accelerator should probably be reduced to be AP3 as the Ion Cannon is AP3.

Stealth suits should have something similar to the invisibility power instead of stealth and shrouding.

Shas'vre should be BS4. It makes no sense how someone at the middle rank of the fire caste shoots worse than an AM veteran who is still just a guardsman.

HYMP Broadsides should be more expensive, maybe 10 points to upgrade the HRR to it, therefore making there the HRR more useful.

What are your thoughts on these suggestions and do you have any suggestions too?

New: Guys, out of curiosity, where would you rank the Tau, at the moment, in terms of competitiveness with 1 being the very best army?

Ethereal powers should be like guardsmen orders. Have to pass a ld test on a single unit (2 if wheelchair dude)

Fighting retreat is better than Supportive Fire by far. Basically it reduces an enemy's average charge distance - assuming you move directly away - to 3.5", or only 1.5" if they're assaulting through cover.

IME Markerlights aren't used that much for boosting during overwatch, and if Supportive Fire is taken away that goes away entirely.

I don't know if Railguns need a buff - they've already got a 33% chance to destroy a vehicle with each penetrating hit and do it at extreme range. Given Tau's easy access to Ignores Cover, BS boosts and Tankhunter that SHOULD be good enough.

Stealthsuits already have a 3+/2++, they do not need to be improved beyond that.

raverrn wrote:
Fighting retreat is better than Supportive Fire by far. Basically it reduces an enemy's average charge distance - assuming you move directly away - to 3.5", or only 1.5" if they're assaulting through cover.

IME Markerlights aren't used that much for boosting during overwatch, and if Supportive Fire is taken away that goes away entirely.

I don't know if Railguns need a buff - they've already got a 33% chance to destroy a vehicle with each penetrating hit and do it at extreme range. Given Tau's easy access to Ignores Cover, BS boosts and Tankhunter that SHOULD be good enough.

Stealthsuits already have a 3+/2++, they do not need to be improved beyond that.

Fighting Retreat is only better if there are no nearby Tau units. This change was more for fluff purposes as Tau don't really hold ground, so it just made more sense IMO.

That is true about Markerlights, I didn't think that part through

With railguns, only one Hammerhead can take Longstrike, so only one can have Tankhunters. Whenever I use them, they never do anything as blowing a vehicle up is way too hard in 7th. 1 shot is simply not enough.

To get the 2+ cover they need to be in a ruin though. Also, 18 inch guns are not that good, especially when they are really fragile and would be just within charge range to shoot. My suggested changes to both stealth suits and railguns were mainly an attempt to get people to use them as other units completely overshadow them. With these changes, there would be more of a decision to be made between stealth suits/riptide/crisis suits, rather than just riptide/crisis suits, and hammerhead/broadsides instead of just spamming broadsides.

Markerlight fix:

Counters can be used for:
-Fire Seeker missile, rules in the current state
-Improve BS of the shot by one per counter spent
-Reduce the enemy's cover save by one per counter spent

A unit may only do one of those during any Shooting phase.

Here's my changes.

Remove Submunition Rounds.
Give Hammerheads BS3
Remove Supporting Fire, replace with Fighting Retreat.
Give Pulse Rifles Str4 AP5 back.
Riptides get 4 wounds.
Ion accelerator is 36" range instead of 60"

.... Why?
The hammerhead doesn't need to be nerfed, especially the submunition round which was in the previous codex.

There is no reason why you'd replace Supporting Fire with something better. A 1/6 chance to hit is not better than moving D6" away.
Why take away S5 from the Pulse Rifle? The standard of Tau firepower.
Riptides aren't actually that bad as a base model. The 5 wounds is factored into the cost with the Nova charge usage and HBC.
The only thing that should be fixed is the IA, which shortening the range doesn't do that much for really.

I think if the rail guns also had the haywire rule (electromagnetic etc) it would be better. That way they get to roll to pen, as well as inflict the haywire damage. Makes them a bit more reliable for what they should be good at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, I do feel the need to point out that I haven't seen a Tau player even get close to placing at the last few major GT's.

Verviedi wrote:
Here's my changes.

Remove Submunition Rounds.
Give Hammerheads BS3
Remove Supporting Fire, replace with Fighting Retreat.
Give Pulse Rifles Str4 AP5 back.
Riptides get 4 wounds.
Ion accelerator is 36" range instead of 60"

What?
S5 guns has always been base for tau and there is no reasons to change it. And there is no reason to nerf the railhead.

I don't think you should take away supporting fire - that's really what helps Tau. I however wouldn't see a problem having supporting fire units be forced to make a LD check in order to do so. In that it would make more sense to start including Fire Warrior sergeants (as right now they don't seem to be worth upgrading)

Overwatch and Markerlights create the bulk of the Tau synergy and negating those abilities really takes away from their strength - if they didn't have the ability to do these things then you might as well be playing Imperial Guard.

I could see changing markerlights to remove 1 point of cover per mark to a max of 6 this seems fair enough but still - these things make Tau what they are. With other armies relatively easy access to Ignore's Cover why would you then take that away from Tau as well?

Why should our Pulse Rifles be neutered to be bolt guns - they are not boltguns - they are better.

Submunition Rounds are also a sensible upgrade for Hammerheads - perhaps a slight bump in cost(5pts for a Str 6 large blast is a little undercosted) but that factored in with the cost of a Hammerhead doesn't seem unreasonable. Taking them away is just silly - Tau weaponry is a toolbox full of options, why strip them of those options when we really need everything we can get. A single Str 10 attack is nice sure but we can't fire both and it makes more sense to use the submunition rounds than the Rail shot in most cases.

SGTPozy wrote:

1. Some changes should be the removal of Supportive Fire. It was fun whilst it lasted, but its against the fluff. What I believe should happen is that it should be swapped with Darkstrider's Fighting Retreat rule. This would mean that Tau would remain unique, but instead of avoiding combat through completely destroying the enemy from overwatch, they would get to fire overwatch and then fall back d6 inches, increasing the charge range for enemies.

2. Markerlights shouldn't be able to boost overwatch. Snapshots in general, yes, but not for overwatch.

3. Railguns should be buffed, perhaps removing multiple hullpoints on a pen result or something?

4. The Ion Accelerator should probably be reduced to be AP3 as the Ion Cannon is AP3.

5. Stealth suits should have something similar to the invisibility power instead of stealth and shrouding.

6. Shas'vre should be BS4. It makes no sense how someone at the middle rank of the fire caste shoots worse than an AM veteran who is still just a guardsman.

7. HYMP Broadsides should be more expensive, maybe 10 points to upgrade the HRR to it, therefore making there the HRR more useful.

1. I feel that would fit fluff, and would be pretty cool.

2. I agree. Also, you forgot to mention that Markerlights need to be what they used to be. Not the "Welp, that's two Markerlights, no cover for you bruh" BS.

3. No. Railguns are already too good IMO. If you field two of them with the current Markerlights, I will not unpack my models.

4. Seems fair enough.

5. No. Invisibility is already a broken mechanic. We don't need more stuff with it.

6. Eeeeeh, maybe.

7. Agreed.

I like Lord Commissar's idea for the railgun, not too powerful but is good as whenever I use them, my pen (if I pen) is always really low, so at least 2HPs would be decent to take off.

Pulse weapons definitely should stay at S5, it would be stupid to lower them, especially since they are only BS3.

I also agree with digital-animal about markerlights and supportive fire, that is the way it appears to be going.

If markerlights do go the way that AnomandaRake said, then we should get back the ability to make suits BS4 like before

Wait wait wait...so an army that hasn't placed in a major tournament in like a year, you're intending on nerfing a bit? Sorry, but this thread seems like people who don't like Tau cheese, but can't notice their own. Are there cheesy things with Tau? Absolutely. I've played Tau since 4th, and they have always had rules that went contrary to standard ways to play the game. But if you take some of the key rules away(supporting fire and markerlights) and don't add meaningful buffs than it seems more spiteful than anything else.

Also, I find it ironic that everyone seems to hate the IA, but no one has mentioned a Bursttide with ECPA, which is a staple in every competitive Tau list, nor has anyone critiqued Buffcommanders or Farsight Bomb. Quite an odd thread

jathomas2013 wrote:
Wait wait wait...so an army that hasn't placed in a major tournament in like a year, you're intending on nerfing a bit? Sorry, but this thread seems like people who don't like Tau cheese, but can't notice their own. Are there cheesy things with Tau? Absolutely. I've played Tau since 4th, and they have always had rules that went contrary to standard ways to play the game. But if you take some of the key rules away(supporting fire and markerlights) and don't add meaningful buffs than it seems more spiteful than anything else.

Also, I find it ironic that everyone seems to hate the IA, but no one has mentioned a Bursttide with ECPA, which is a staple in every competitive Tau list, nor has anyone critiqued Buffcommanders or Farsight Bomb. Quite an odd thread

Jathomas you do have to admit that the 7th edition codexes are actually... balanced (ugh what a weird word for 40k) externally with each other, it really surprises me so. Tau compared to those codex are still above them in the power scale with their 6th ed; SGTPozy is just tossing out some ideas seeing if the community likes them. I am scared of what Games Workshop will actually do with Tau with their recent trend of making bad units worse and good units better, I can only imagine how kroot and vespid will fare. Seeing as Tau lack Battle Brothers with anyone now, I could see GamesWorkshop making it so Farsight Enclave and Tau Septs can be allied with each other now.

Especially to take advantage of the battlesuits.

I think the only changes tau really need are nerf the riptide's survivability by removing its option for FNP and make the 3++ nova result a 4++ or FNP. Its absurd how easy it is for it to be T6 2+/3++/5+FNP and having 5W basically means If I need to kill it I have to wait for it to fail the 3+ nova test to even have a feasible chance and even then with 5++ and FNP it always has a least 55% to ignore any ap2 wound sent at it. it's shooting is fine for the price it just needs an actual weakness.

And then make ignore cover a little less prevalent. This one is only because a few of the armies in the game depend on cover to function well (IG, Orkz, Nids) and tau near auto win against them because they can put ignore cover on anything with MLs. Probably would just make is cost 3 MLs to require a little more effort and then will make it more of a trade of BS for ignoring cover.

Tau are a strong codex but most of their units can played around. I think these two things are the only part that you don't really get a choice against.

Honestly I think an easy fix is to swap Ion Cannon and Ion Accelerator. Makes more sense to see the more powerful gun on the mobile gun platform than an arm mounted weapon on a giant robot.
Or just remove the second mode from the IA on the Riptide so it has to nova charge to get a blast at all.

I honestly feel a decent fix for the HRR is to make it Rapid Fire 48" instead of the Heavy 1. Yeah, maybe increase prices a bit for the HYMP. Honestly I'd prefer to see them cost more but get the option to move and shoot again.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

I honestly feel a decent fix for the HRR is to make it Rapid Fire 48" instead of the Heavy 1.

Saw this and immediately agreed... mostly. How about Salvo 1/2 60" ?

StarHunter25 wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

I honestly feel a decent fix for the HRR is to make it Rapid Fire 48" instead of the Heavy 1.

Saw this and immediately agreed... mostly. How about Salvo 1/2 60" ?

Mc have relentless so would be firing the 2 shots all the time?

SGTPozy wrote:

raverrn wrote:
Fighting retreat is better than Supportive Fire by far. Basically it reduces an enemy's average charge distance - assuming you move directly away - to 3.5", or only 1.5" if they're assaulting through cover.

IME Markerlights aren't used that much for boosting during overwatch, and if Supportive Fire is taken away that goes away entirely.

I don't know if Railguns need a buff - they've already got a 33% chance to destroy a vehicle with each penetrating hit and do it at extreme range. Given Tau's easy access to Ignores Cover, BS boosts and Tankhunter that SHOULD be good enough.

Stealthsuits already have a 3+/2++, they do not need to be improved beyond that.

Fighting Retreat is only better if there are no nearby Tau units. This change was more for fluff purposes as Tau don't really hold ground, so it just made more sense IMO.

That is true about Markerlights, I didn't think that part through

With railguns, only one Hammerhead can take Longstrike, so only one can have Tankhunters. Whenever I use them, they never do anything as blowing a vehicle up is way too hard in 7th. 1 shot is simply not enough.

To get the 2+ cover they need to be in a ruin though. Also, 18 inch guns are not that good, especially when they are really fragile and would be just within charge range to shoot. My suggested changes to both stealth suits and railguns were mainly an attempt to get people to use them as other units completely overshadow them. With these changes, there would be more of a decision to be made between stealth suits/riptide/crisis suits, rather than just riptide/crisis suits, and hammerhead/broadsides instead of just spamming broadsides.

I agree the charge thing might be too much of a hit to assault armies but I also disagree with your interpretation of the fluff. It's not that Tau don't stand their ground, it's that they don't view territorial gains as a factor in battles. It's sort of like Athens in ancient Greece, they would hold a battle line during a battle(as that's important) but they were able to abandon their city because it was the idea that mattered, not the city.

Least that's how I always took it, obviously they move around a lot but you don't back up one unit to allow a big hole in your line during battle unless everything is retreating or it's on purpose to surround the target.

That sounds about right. The tau don't believe in trading ground for bodies. They do not siege if they can avoid it. Hit-and-run is pretty much the preferred tactic of the fire caste.

 total0 wrote:

Mc have relentless so would be firing the 2 shots all the time?

Broadsides are Infantry that are very bulky, not MC.

Guys, out of curiosity, where would you rank the Tau, at the moment, in terms of competitiveness with 1 being the very best army?
I'd probably say that Tau are 4th or 5th best;
Eldar being No1,
Imperial shenanigans as being No2,
Daemons as No3,
Then either Tau or Necrons as No4.

SGTPozy wrote:
Guys, out of curiosity, where would you rank the Tau, at the moment, in terms of competitiveness with 1 being the very best army?
I'd probably say that Tau are 4th or 5th best;
Eldar being No1,
Imperial shenanigans as being No2,
Daemons as No3,
Then either Tau or Necrons as No4.

I'd have to agree with number 1 and 2 but would definitely say tau were the 3rd strongest then daemons in 4th

Tau aren't as strong as they used to be if you're using Malestrom mission.

It forces them to get up close something that no Tau player wants to do. Right now I say they are 4th.

Fish transports with drones are amazing in maelstorm actually.

The 'fish happens to be massively over-priced though.

 koooaei wrote:
Fish transports with drones are amazing in maelstorm actually.

How so? drones can't score. and the fish does not bring anything special to the table.



In any case, to balance tau the following needs to be done:


1-the HRR needs to be brought back at an anti-tank gun, at S8 with no speical rules, even as ap1, its just not.

2-the HYMP needs to be brought down it power. its too effective.

3-the ion accelerator needs to be brought down, it alone brakes the riptide. take away some of its range, and the non-nova blast, at it should be ok.

4-stealth suits needs a bit of a boost, making them slightly cheaper is the simple way.

5-vespid, needs either a bit of a CC punch, or a bit of a price brake.

That's it. nothing else needs to change in order to balance the tau, everything else is within the realm of metabalance and sorts itself out naturally as other codcies around it change, its just there few that are the fixed points of "too good/not enough".



As for a fluffy change, broadsides REALLY should be T5. this must come with a price increase if done, but LOOK at them, they are HUGE, no way its just T4.

I still think a small point change and moving stealth suits to FA would be a better option.

Mostly because I want suits in every FOC slot.

But I agree. Especially on Broadsides. They are almost the size of dreds I think.

Yeah Broadsides are essentially the size of dreadnoughts, but making them T5 would stop them from being insta-killed, so I doubt it would happen.

I personally would hate stealth suits to be FA as my FA slots are always full - there's so much competition, yet I always have spare Elite slots. Just decrease the price and I'd consider using them

Vespid are a lost cause in my opinion, although I like including auxiliaries in my army, they will never be a good choice.

I think decent changes to tau would be:

Ld test for supporting fire

Markerlights require 1 token per cover save reduction

Seeker missiles fired by a markerlight do not require line of sight and may target a unit different to that targeted by the rest of the firing model's guns

Disruption pods 10pts instead of 15, with old jink they were a steal, now way too expensive

auto Repair system 3pts instead of 5

Heavy rail rifle St9 Ap1, Although I think the idea for rapid fire or salvo is also very interesting and could be a good idea, right now theyre not worth it which is a great shame

HYPD +5pts per model

Railguns definitely need something else, maybe haywire as someone suggested? they are supposed to be high powered vehicle killers so need someone. Armourbane or lance might also be interesting but doesnt help with the fact they do very little after the pen, hence haywire might be better, More bang for buck.

Riptide +20pts, theyre just too cheap

Stealth suits 25pts each, marker beacon can be taken by all squad members for +2pts

Devilfish 65pts from 80. 80 was absurd even with the old jink rules, now they are way overcosted

Vespid and razorsharks need something.. not sure what though. Sunshark is okish.. maybe a slight points decrease?

Sniper teams need to be a slotless choice or maybe non-obsec non-compulsory troops. They're not a bad unit but they take up one of the most valuable slots in the codex so get pushed down

Drone squadrons should be 12pts a model. 14 is too expensive, even with a commander with controller shinnigans its a very expensive unit for its output.

All units except Firewarriors should lose Supporting Fire.

Markerlights should not be able to buff snap fire.

Markerlights should be able to nerf cover saves by 1 for every token you expend, rather than just paying a flat 2 tokens for Ignores Cover.

Broadside High Yield Missle Pods should be more expensive. I also think Broadsides should have Slow and Purposeful, but also take a very large point hike for that privilege (they're basically static gun emplacements right now, which is boring). Honestly, broadsides should be totally re-worked, it's one of the most boring things to play against.

Hammerhead guns should be twin-linked (rail gun and ion cannon), but the tank itself should be significantly more expensive and BS3. Submunition rounds should be eliminated - if you want a pie plate, buy an ion cannon.

Most the Independent Characters need tweaking. Commander Shadowsun is fine, but the rest are overpriced or not useful (even Farsight is basically only taken to unlock his bodyguard squad). This is a common problem in all the codexes.

Shas'vres should be BS4.

Commanders should be WS3 and W3. Iridum armor should cost at least 50pts.

Kroot should to lose sniper rounds, but gain some close combat prowess.

Vespids need to be totally re-worked. Maybe give them Pulse Carbines?

The Riptide needs a price hike, or better yet a nerf bat. I support lowering him to T5, lowering the range of the Ion Accelerator to 48" or 36", and making the Ion Accelerator a much more expensive upgrade (maybe 20pts). Ditto for all the Forgeworld variants.

Tau Fliers need a deep discount, or a buff in armor and firepower. The Barracuda should be a standard codex unit.

Stealth Suits should be a Fast Attack choice. They should also lose their battlesuit weapons, and instead have the option to take the weapons that Pathfinders have. Stealth Suits should also be able to take markerlights, but lose Shrouded if they fire them.

Pathfinders should have Stealth. Their special weapon options should be cheaper.

Making the vespid's weapon assault 2 would work.

Also, I disagree with taking away burst cannons. They are very expensive, and it works with them.

I think all Tau should be BS5 and all their weapons should ignores cover with rending. Also I think the Riptide should (fairly) be a T8 model with a rerollable 2++. I think Farsight Should be WS10 and Five wounds with it will not die and eternal warrior - and I also believe that the Ion Cannon should work like a Orbital Barrage heavy 2 Str 10 AP 1 with the shield breaker special rule. I think stealth suits should just have the Hard to hit special rule instead of silly shrouding and stealth. I also think Pathfinders should be T5 and have a 2+ jink save. They should also have twin linked marker lights just in case. Also everything needs a price decrease so we can field more of this stuff. I think Hammerheads and devilfish and piranhas should be flyers

Ethereals should also be ML4 psykers with access to Daemonology

also it would be nice if we could get some close combat prowess. Like...I don't know Fire Warriors WS5 because they're martial arts training or whatever...

THEN - they'd be "balanced"

I mean they are the "greater good" guys after all.. they should just win every game.


edit: just in case.. obviously these suggestions are ott.. just posting for laughs.

FWIW, it's pretty entertaining.

 digital-animal wrote:
I think all Tau should be BS5 and all their weapons should ignores cover with rending. Also I think the Riptide should (fairly) be a T8 model with a rerollable 2++. I think Farsight Should be WS10 and Five wounds with it will not die and eternal warrior - and I also believe that the Ion Cannon should work like a Orbital Barrage heavy 2 Str 10 AP 1 with the shield breaker special rule. I think stealth suits should just have the Hard to hit special rule instead of silly shrouding and stealth. I also think Pathfinders should be T5 and have a 2+ jink save. They should also have twin linked marker lights just in case. Also everything needs a price decrease so we can field more of this stuff. I think Hammerheads and devilfish and piranhas should be flyers

Ethereals should also be ML4 psykers with access to Daemonology

also it would be nice if we could get some close combat prowess. Like...I don't know Fire Warriors WS5 because they're martial arts training or whatever...

THEN - they'd be "balanced"

These suggestions remind me of another thread about balancing a particular army

I mean they are the "greater good" guys after all.. they should just win every game.


edit: just in case.. obviously these suggestions are ott.. just posting for laughs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ DanielBeaver, your suggestions make it out as if Tau are still OP, so I find that to implement all of those would just be silly.

What I would like to see:
- The Smart Missile System is just Assault 3.
- Rail Rifles as Crisis weapon options.
- Failsafe detonator as a normal suit system instead of being a signature system.
- Signature systems are 1/model, so no stacking. The Neuroweb System Jammer should cost 20-25 points.
- An Infantry Wargear list with EMP grenades, blacksun filters, drone controllers, homing beacons, stuff like that.
- Stealth generators (both Shadowsun's and the Stealth Suits') give +3 cover instead of Stealth+Shrouded. Drones bought for these models also gain this bonus, but nobody else.
- The Ethereal (including Aun'va, but not Aun'shi) should be something, like, 30 points more expensive.
- Kroots are back to S4 I4 and they are 8ppm. Sniper rounds are +3 ppm.
- Drone Squadrons are Troops.
- The Devilfish should be around 60-65 points (same cost as a Chimera).
- Fusion Blaster option for every Stealth Suit in a Stealth Team. Also, give the Stealth Team Move Through Cover (and Scouts?). Maybe even a special rule that gives them Stealth+Pinning in the first turn.
- Riptide costs ~200 points. Ion Accelerator costs +20 points and is AP3. Railgun weapon option for +50 points (with S10 Ap1 Armurbane Nova Charge Mode). No option for a Stimulant Injector, but the Shielded Missile Drones are 20ppm.
- Pathfinder weapon options are for -10 points each.
- Neutron Blasters are Assault 2, Vespid Strain Leader can take Neutron Lance (R18" S8 AP3 Assault 1 Lance) for +15 points.
- The Pulse Bomb on the Sunshark Bomber has Apocalyptic Blast, like the Deathstrike missile.
- The Quad Ion Turrent on the Razorshark has Twin-Linked.
- The Heavy Rail Rifles on the Broadsides are Rapid Fire instead of Heavy 1. The High Yield Missile Pods are a +5ppm option.

The NSJ really doesn't have the range to warrant 20 points.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The NSJ really doesn't have the range to warrant 20 points.

When combined with Thrust Move, it does. The NSJ would be cool at 10 points in the hands of, say, an Infantry model.

Do you have good experience with the NSJ? Whenever I use it I either forget about it or it doesn't do anything :(

Also, if drones become troops they should be non-compulsory troops just like for Drone Sentries in IA:3 IMO as drones are awesome and I'd never take FW again if that were an option

I have a massive feeling that the Riptide will be Heldraked in the new codex, probably like how you suggested.

SGTPozy wrote:
Do you have good experience with the NSJ? Whenever I use it I either forget about it or it doesn't do anything :(

Yeah, I have. It usually does more damage to the enemy than my Commander . IIRC, my most ridiculous kill with it was a Land Raider.

SGTPozy wrote:

Also, if drones become troops they should be non-compulsory troops just like for Drone Sentries in IA:3 IMO as drones are awesome and I'd never take FW again if that were an option

I would just make Drones non-scoring. The point of Drone Squadrons as Troops is that you can make a full-JSJ army.

Speaking of which, three points are missing from the above list:
- Stealth Team maximum size is up to 12.
- Fire Warrior Team maximum size is up to 24.
- Fire Warriors have a Combat-Squad-like special rule that allows them to break down to 4/8/12-model units.

Seriusly, once you called the NSJ worth 20 points, I lost faith in the post and stopped reading.

Its active in the ENEMY turn, so JSJ is not even relevant. in fact its in a way a negative.

Its only making the guys really close to you damage themselves a bit, the crisis suit mantra is never to allow people to get as close to you.

Even in its current 2 point price, its a point filler choice, not something you actually give anything up for.

5, Id still take it. 10, MAYBE, 20? it will never, ever, ever be taken.



And drones ARE non-scoring. as long its just drones.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Its active in the ENEMY turn, so JSJ is not even relevant. in fact its in a way a negative.

I was talking about Thrust Move, and not JSJ. The point is that you can get close to a shooty unit, and then almost shut them down because you are such a cool guy. Bonus points if you do this in Turn 1 (entirely possible with some good Thrust Move rolls), when they can't charge you even if they want.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And drones ARE non-scoring. as long its just drones.

I mean, I would make them non-scoring 4life. And not non-scoring-until-IC-happens.

As a controversial idea, remove the Ignores Cover part of Markerlights entirely and replace it with an additional +1 to BS. As such, each Markerlight would buff BS by 2, but Cover would not be completely pointless against the most shooting-centric army in the game.

That would be.. odd. Not necessarily bad, but certainly different.

That would be absurdly annoying. far more than ignoring cover.

It would make a random odd markerlight hidden in a squad a massive threat, as it can instantly bumb anything to BS5.

It will also make real marker units completely slowed, as there will be no reason to EVER bother to score more than a pair of marks on a single target.

And than you'll need to give tau a new array of actually cover ignoring weapons, as they got practically none naturally.

You will cause far more problems than fixing any.



Switching back to "1 mark, -1 cover", I can get behind. will require a bit of changes to make work without crippling tau (like giving pathfinders their 4+ back), but outright removing it would delete one of the few things that make tau, tau.

Or reduce the range to 24"? That way they need to.move and can't camp in the same piece of terrain from start to finish? Orrrr make them like devistators and such, each are armed with a pulse carbine but 4 may switch their guns out for a markerlight for +5 pts or somthing?

SGTPozy wrote:

@ DanielBeaver, your suggestions make it out as if Tau are still OP, so I find that to implement all of those would just be silly.

Well... Yes, I do think they're still overpowered. Especially compared to the recent codex.

Making a HEAVY weapon that is used by a T3 5+ unit a 24" range?

Are you not seeing the obvious flaw with that plan?

The cost more than fire warriors to begin with, despite inferior armor. what the point in making them pay yet again to upgrade to have markerlights when the entire purpose of the unit to begin with is to use markerlights?

 total0 wrote:
Or reduce the range to 24"? That way they need to.move and can't camp in the same piece of terrain from start to finish? Orrrr make them like devistators and such, each are armed with a pulse carbine but 4 may switch their guns out for a markerlight for +5 pts or somthing?

Fluff wise, pathfinders are supposed to "camp in the same piece of terrain" as they are the scouts for the army, providing support for the other units. They are the recon team for the Tau, they just happen to be useful during the actual battle unlike other armies' recon teams. IMO, they should gain infiltrate if they get the range reduced and making them like devastators would also be unfluffy. I personally don't like how they can take upgrade guns like rail rifles etc as it doesn't make sense to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

@ DanielBeaver, your suggestions make it out as if Tau are still OP, so I find that to implement all of those would just be silly.

Well... Yes, I do think they're still overpowered. Especially compared to the recent codex.

Fair enough, so what do you think of SW, SM, Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, AM and AS? Tau aren't half as bad nowadays as they were in 6th with those awfully nooby things that they could do.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Making a HEAVY weapon that is used by a T3 5+ unit a 24" range?

Are you not seeing the obvious flaw with that plan?

The cost more than fire warriors to begin with, despite inferior armor. what the point in making them pay yet again to upgrade to have markerlights when the entire purpose of the unit to begin with is to use markerlights?

Wow simmer down their buddy, im entitled to my opinion. I came up with a suggestion instead of removing them like some other dude suggested.

My opinion is that the ability to remove coversaves wouldnt be half bad if the army didnt have such open access to it so came up with an idea to reduce the range OR pay for the upgrade like a devistator

 total0 wrote:

My opinion is that the ability to remove coversaves wouldnt be half bad if the army didnt have such open access to it so came up with an idea to reduce the range OR pay for the upgrade like a devistator

In fact, the army has limited access to markerlights: marker drones, pathfinders, some random units with very limited access (Sky Rays, Sun Sharks, Fireblades, FW/stealth team leaders)... and that's it. Any maybe Tetras. Out of these, Pathfinders and Tetras are easy to remove, Marker Drones are BS2, and the others should feel lucky if they can get even one counter on the target.

I dont see how the ability to fill up your FA section on markerlights is a lack of access to it but ok? Idunderstand if they had to compete with riptides or crisis suits but i only ever see pathfinders used.

There is also the buff master with drones combo.
Skyrays can markerlights fliers allowing hh to shoot more reliably or strip the jink save if hits twice.

 total0 wrote:
I dont see how the ability to fill up your FA section on markerlights is a lack of access to it but ok?

The problem is with the fact that you must fill up your FA section to get a decent number of markerlights.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 total0 wrote:
I dont see how the ability to fill up your FA section on markerlights is a lack of access to it but ok?

The problem is with the fact that you must fill up your FA section to get a decent number of markerlights.

So there is no lack of access? So my point is made :p.

Also you're starting to sound like a gk player and maxing out on dk haha dugh dum dish

It does suck how we can't really operate without markerlights now. <sigh>

 total0 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 total0 wrote:
I dont see how the ability to fill up your FA section on markerlights is a lack of access to it but ok?

The problem is with the fact that you must fill up your FA section to get a decent number of markerlights.

So there is no lack of access?

Just try to take an usable amount of markerlight without the FA section, and you will see .

Or not having them killed when somebody looks at their general direction.

Sesiuly, I don't get how people make such a fuss about pathfinders.
They are an expensive guardsman, they do not survive until turn 3 against a semi-competent opponent.

You are looking to nerf something that is not even considered competitive, look at NOVA 2014, a single tau list in top 16, not a single pathfinder in it, just the "commander+suits+drones" setup, a SINGLE target gets marked every turn, no more. a SINGLE unit that it's cover gets ignored and is blasted with high accuracy. for a huge investment.
Bay area? a single tau in top 10, again no pathfinders and just a single drone squad to accompany a commander.

I challenge you to find me a single top-table list that actually has pathfinders in it, or any other dedicated marker unit that is not under the specific HQ+drones setup with a single such unit, there isn't. markers are not that great.


Its so easy to panic over an ability your army does not have, but when the competitive scene answers by simply not even taking that ability, you can hardly argue that it's overpowered and need the insane nerfs thrown around here. most of them would render the marker units not even casual worthy.

SGTPozy wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

@ DanielBeaver, your suggestions make it out as if Tau are still OP, so I find that to implement all of those would just be silly.

Well... Yes, I do think they're still overpowered. Especially compared to the recent codex.

Fair enough, so what do you think of SW, SM, Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, AM and AS? Tau aren't half as bad nowadays as they were in 6th with those awfully nooby things that they could do.

Eldar needs a huge nerf bat all across the board.
SM needs some specific nerfs (Bikes, Gravguns, Grav Cents). I feel that Tau and SM are similar in power level, and have similar problems - good generally, but with some clearly overpowered units and rules in the codex.

The rest of the armies you mentioned I think are basically fine.

Removing Eldar as Battle Brothers was the only nerf Tau needed and that happened in 7th Ed.

Maybe we should instead be talking about how to buff lists without FMCs, SM/Eldar bikers, or Wave Serpents.

I like playing 40k, not just asembling models, and I'd play Orks if they had a halfway decent codex.

Marker light hits should allow cover save.

Ethereal's command radius should be 6'

Vespids: maybe something like a 2d6 s4 ap- ignore cover nova power the turn they arrive via deepstriking. But that's up to debate - i'm not very familliar with their fluff and if it's reasonable or not.

Krootoxes need a slight buff.

Agree on the other stuff proposed by the op except for the hammerhead. It's a reasonable tank that just pales compared to the firepower provided by suits.

Markerlights allowing cover saves is absurd and will make it completely useless. we already summerised that people hardly use markers in top tier lists as it is, nerfing it further is absurd.


WHY should ethreal command radius be 6"? 12" isn't huge, and he comes with a heavy drawback.

Vespid-the logic behing giving them a nova is? I know they need a buff, but that's totally random.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Markerlights allowing cover saves is absurd and will make it completely useless. we already summerised that people hardly use markers in top tier lists as it is, nerfing it further is absurd.


WHY should ethreal command radius be 6"? 12" isn't huge, and he comes with a heavy drawback.

Vespid-the logic behing giving them a nova is? I know they need a buff, but that's totally random.

Markerlights can't light through a wall or tree. And even through thick fog, for example. That's a targeting system that needs to hit first.

Cause 12' radius is actually huge.

That was just some random idea about vespids. Fast unit with deepstrike. Squishy for mellee and not good enough at shooting compared to other stuff in the book => must have something unique to utilise that doesn't explictly rely on combat abilities. And if you haven't noticed yet, it's a game with a ton of dice rolls. It should be random. And your main duty as a general is to make decisions with risks in mind. Otherwise, you've got something like calculator wars.

Speaking of Vespids, what about some sort of Objective Denied special rule? Like, they deny objectives further away (8-12"?) and they deny even against Objective Secured units.

Tau are fine just the way they are.

The 12" ethereal power would better suit models within the range get the bonus not unit, because the way it is is open to exploitation, I'll keep this one model within range so i get all the buffs. Really should be faq'd to be like tyranids and orks in the way that it works, thoughts?

Who thinks that Supportive Fire will become a command benefit? I could see this and it would dis encourage going unbound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 total0 wrote:
The 12" ethereal power would better suit models within the range get the bonus not unit, because the way it is is open to exploitation, I'll keep this one model within range so i get all the buffs. Really should be faq'd to be like tyranids and orks in the way that it works, thoughts?

That works for stubborn, extra shot at half range, feel no pain, but what about running and snap shotting? Would only those in 6" be able to snap shot after running? If so, that ability would become even less useful.

In my opinion, the extra VP balances the powers, especially since Ethereals only have 2W and no armour.

 koooaei wrote:
That was just some random idea about vespids. Fast unit with deepstrike. Squishy for mellee and not good enough at shooting compared to other stuff in the book => must have something unique to utilise that doesn't explictly rely on combat abilities. And if you haven't noticed yet, it's a game with a ton of dice rolls. It should be random. And your main duty as a general is to make decisions with risks in mind. Otherwise, you've got something like calculator wars.

Alternatively, what about simply giving them grenades - either as an option or by default? Maybe even the option for a grenade launcher armed with Photon and EMP grenades?

Vesipids could be turned into nice H+R CC units. Flufwise, their claws are discribed as being "hard as diamond," so that would probebly be at least AP4, it not 3. Give them a few attacks, and an increase in I, and they would be pretty good.

 gmaleron wrote:
Tau are fine just the way they are.

No they're not. Vespids are trash, and there's a couple of other units (both fliers, Devilfish etc.) that could use some help too. The fact that the best units are really good doesn't mean the Codex is OK.

Vespid are wonderful, in the right environment.

That environment is not the standard 40k game, but combat partols, cities of death and zone mortalis.

Its alright for a unit to be specialized at specific game types.

It's little changes that need to be made and the Codex will be fine.

Riptide shouldn't have access to a potential 3+ invulnerable and FNP, on top of a 2+ armour save. Ion Accelerator is also undercosted. FNP is fine, you are paying a fair bit for more durability.

The HYMP Broadsides are also undercosted IMO.

Markerlights need a bit of work, but not too much. Maybe 3 to remove Cover Saves, or expend 1 Markerlight to reduce the cover save by 1, or only allow one use of markerlights (ie, remove cover or increase BS, not noth).
They also shouldn't increase BS on Overwatch, only Snapshots, like against Flyers.

Personal gripe is the Buffmander, but I doubt GW intended for it to be used the way it is used.

While we are nerfing some units, we need to buff the mediocre units, such as Vespids, so that the Codex is balanced and that each model is equally viable.

Actually, the riptide's FnP is also too cheap. should be at least 5 more point, if not 10.

I won't cover the shopping list of reasons why the IA is absurd again.


HYMP is too good, HRR is not good enough. and broadsides stats do not fit the model.
Soultion? give them T5, and make HYMP a 10 point upgrade on the HRR. HRR become good due to increased durability, HYMP becomes expensive enough to to be spammed.
Or make T5, increase base cost by 10 and buff the HRR.
(do note that oblits, with similar defensive stats pay only 6 points for that 1 T via MoN, therefor 10 points and +1T is probably overcosting, therefor a nerf.)



The buffmander, is actually not an issue now that allied and riptide shenanigans are no longer legal. people hardly run these systems any more outside of a farsight bomb, who is not exactly top tier.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Actually, the riptide's FnP is also too cheap. should be at least 5 more point, if not 10.

The FnP shouldn't be an option for the Riptide in the first place.

Agreed FnP on any MC is just a bit..... over the top

Tell that to my Talosi! I'd say FNP makes perfect sense on most MC's, the problem is that the Riptide shouldn't of been a Monstrous Creature in the first place...

Again we come back to the "should/not be a MC"
Its a natural evolution from the crisis suit, as the varius battlesuits are not walkers riptides should not be walkers

Suits cant be walkers because having your standard HQ as a vehicle is a bad idea (and enclaves all-walker armies would be annoying as feth)
Having basic units immune to small arms fire is a bad decision for game balance.


Now, given that FnP is available to suits (and always was) there is no reason to exclude the riptide. he just needs proper pricing for that. the current is a bit too low. was it slightly more highly priced, or was the riptide not as though to begin with (like the 109 is a bit more fragile), it would have been fair totally fine.


As for FnP on MCs in general-is there really a reason why its OTT like jager claims? because I hardly see a unit MORE deserving than a MC.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Now, given that FnP is available to suits (and always was) there is no reason to exclude the riptide.

There is quite a difference between an average suit and a Riptide in terms of "eating painkillers". An average suit is barely bigger than the Tau piloting it, so it makes sense that most hits affect the pilot somehow and he can eat a pill to recover and go on. On the other hand, the Riptide is more like a huge creature all by itself that also happens to have a pilot. Damage on, say, its arms probably won't affect the pilot even by the slightest.

FNP could be a swarm of tiny repair bots (fluff-wise the tau do have those, and use them on vehicles), as well as the life saving stuff they have normally.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
FNP could be a swarm of tiny repair bots (fluff-wise the tau do have those, and use them on vehicles), as well as the life saving stuff they have normally.

Although that would be cool FNP for TAU is called Stimulant Injectors so fluffwise it wouldn't make sense for it to be repair bots.

LouisRuin wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
FNP could be a swarm of tiny repair bots (fluff-wise the tau do have those, and use them on vehicles), as well as the life saving stuff they have normally.

Although that would be cool FNP for TAU is called Stimulant Injectors so fluffwise it wouldn't make sense for it to be repair bots.

You don't think they might install different versions of stuff on different suits?

It is my sincerest hope that Riptides become "Jetpack Walkers" in the next codex.

As well, I feel something absolutely needs to be done about HYMP broadsides. Something I'd love to see is a point increase, and then also prohibiting support systems to be taken.

Finally, the secondary weapons on the HH need to be looked at. As of right now, there is no reason whatsoever to take the burst cannons instead of the SMS.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

LouisRuin wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
FNP could be a swarm of tiny repair bots (fluff-wise the tau do have those, and use them on vehicles), as well as the life saving stuff they have normally.

Although that would be cool FNP for TAU is called Stimulant Injectors so fluffwise it wouldn't make sense for it to be repair bots.

You don't think they might install different versions of stuff on different suits?

They probably would but for me to think of it as a different function it would need to have a different name.

To be Honest i don't think that the Tau Codex is too unbalanced.

However I do think that Vespid don't really serve any purpose that isn't already handled by other units/models.

The ideas I have:
HH and SR burst cannons sperate, and SMS cost more (with a possible base points decrease for the upgrade ), thus a tradeoff of the SMS's extened range, TL and complete ignoreing of all cover, with double shots.

Complete redo on vespids, they currently serve little purpose in the current game, maybe turn them into a Hit and Run CC unit?

Make IA cost more, and mess with the prices of support systems for riptide.

Give HRR Armourbane, or give braodsises with them tankhunter (something like that)

Stealthsuits:
a. make them cheaper
b. mess around their options
and/or
c. change their slot

Return markerlights to what they were origonally (-1 cover per, but also option to decrease Ld for that turn, as to make it easier to break squads).

What are peoples opinions on Piranhas?

They seem good for the points if you use them as tank hunters

I have a though for buffing HRR and Railguns:

For Railguns:
To pen rolls of a 6 results in +2 to the damage results table (so explosion on a 3+)
To pen rolls of a 5 results in +1 to the damage results table (so explosion on a 4+)

For HRR:
To pen rolls of a 6 results in +1 to the damage results table.

Maybe against heavy vehicles there is a -1 modifier, so only a pen roll of a 6 for Railgun becomes like HRR or something.

Thoughts?

Give HRR tank hunter, or it takes off 2 hp instead of one, but only against ground targets.

Increase cost of Broadsides by 10 points.

Make SMS upgrade on HH cost 10 pts.

Also, maybe have SMS either ignore cover, or ignore line of sight, but not both at the same time.

Give Vespids Furious Charge so people finally understand how you're supposed to use them

Hunam0001 wrote:
Give HRR tank hunter, or it takes off 2 hp instead of one, but only against ground targets.

Increase cost of Broadsides by 10 points.

Make SMS upgrade on HH cost 10 pts.

Also, maybe have SMS either ignore cover, or ignore line of sight, but not both at the same time.

Give Vespids Furious Charge so people finally understand how you're supposed to use them

Yeah.

I haven't actually played yet. But it seems clear to me by looking at their statline that Vespids are meant to be a harrassment unit used to support other units. So you have, say, a group of tac marines. You fire at them with a swuad of fire warriors, and send your vespids over to support. Next turn, you have some scouts to deal with elsewhere on the board, and vespids can zip over there to help your kroot take care of them. They're meant to shoot, then charge in, then hit and run out, hopefully into cover.

That's why they're built the way they are, usable against a wide variety of targets in either shooting or melee but not good enough to wipe out any squad on their own. Hence their gun is good enough to take out marines, but has a RoF too low to take out a squad on their own, or do appreciably better against weaker hordes like IG. Their melee, combined with Hammer of Wrath, is also good enough to damage most things but, again, not good enough to take out much of anything on their own.

They're based around speed and versatility, not killing power. They're not, say, some kind of failed anti-MEQ.

Supporting Fire compensates the Tau for having no real melee capability. Markerlights compensate the Tau for not having huge numbers of guns to bring to bear. Ethereals do a variety of things that buff troops so that there is an element of unpredictability about Tau capabilities.

Take away any of those three and you just doled out a broad nerf with no regard for the point of why they have such capabilities in the first place. Essentially just whinging that the Tau don't play fair.

Complaints about markerlights are particularly annoying. They've been pretty much just as good for their entire existence, except now they're on useful platforms. In fact, some of their capability has been removed in the latest codex.

Points adjustments to some things seem the best option, perhaps with an FOC reshuffle for some units like Riptides and Stealthsuits. That said, with 7th, the severely broken stuff is all gone and the Codex is now very well balanced. Powerful, sure, but people having a good whinge about that isn't reason enough to go poking holes in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the railgun nerf was necessary. Broadsides pumping out triple S10 AP1 shots, twinlinked? I exploited the gak out of that before the last codex, and I can tell you, it was one of the few things about the old codex that needed a kick in the teeth. Big monsters and vehicles just melted away before the railgun/Stabilisation System combo. Poke your suits around the corner, and give the enemy both barrels.

I think the issue people have with the railgun nerf on Broadsides has more to do with the fact that High Yeild Missle Pods are so much better than the current HRR.

However, there is no way they can go back to being S10 Ap1. It was a little over powered before, but it would absolutely insane now with the option to have Skyfire.

Statistically, the HYMP is inferior to the HRR against AP2 and/or T8, and the latter has much longer range.

While this is true, the fact of the matter is that there's not a whole lot that is T8 or up, with a 2+ Sv.

I'm still in the camp that HYMP is undercosted as a free upgrade.

Hunam0001 wrote:
While this is true, the fact of the matter is that there's not a whole lot that is T8 or up, with a 2+ Sv.

I'm still in the camp that HYMP is undercosted as a free upgrade.

Well, 2+ arnour save OR T8. So Tyrannofexes, Wraithknights, Megaarmoured Nobs. Some other stuff as well.

Not a huge amount of stuff, but it is there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It will also ID T4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hah. Looking at the math, against most MCs, an equivalent number of points of sniper drones within RF range beats both weapons!

I don't think having HYMP as a costed upgrade would do much to dissuade the use of them. It seems a trivial complaint.

And there are enough >T4 with 3+/2+ saves out there to consider Broadsides over HYMP in the first place.

Yeah, Sniper Drones are awesome now.

Personally, I've been using HRR Broadsides with a Velocity tracker as AA, and find them pretty effectively in this role.

I also find that the static nature of Broadsides means that they're rarely facing elite unites such as Meganobs, Wraithknights, etc.

I still think that the combo of a points cost, and taking up the support system slot, would go a long way towards putting the HYMP on par with the HRR.

Also, on an unrelated note, does anyone else feel like Vespids maybe need assault grenades?

I don't think the problem is the Tau Codex, it's more the fact that there's a lot of melee units in the game that have no chance in hell of getting into melee, essentially making the "weakness" to assault the Tau have moot.

The Riptide can go melt itself to slag for all I care for it though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I don't think the problem is the Tau Codex, it's more the fact that there's a lot of melee units in the game that have no chance in hell of getting into melee, essentially making the "weakness" to assault the Tau have moot.

The Riptide can go melt itself to slag for all I care for it though.

Well, "melee units" in this context means pretty much "every unit." You don't need to be a dedicated melee unit to beat Tau in melee. Guardsmen will do it, unless the Tau blind them.


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Which makes me wonder who will win statistically if you start equal points values of Firewarriors and Guardsmen 30" apart and just have the Guardsmen charge forward. I think I might figure that at.

Alcibiades wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I don't think the problem is the Tau Codex, it's more the fact that there's a lot of melee units in the game that have no chance in hell of getting into melee, essentially making the "weakness" to assault the Tau have moot.

The Riptide can go melt itself to slag for all I care for it though.

Well, "melee units" in this context means pretty much "every unit." You don't need to be a dedicated melee unit to beat Tau in melee. Guardsmen will do it, unless the Tau blind them.

You still have to get there though, and there aren't exactly a massive amount of non-melee units with extreme mobility.

Tau are fine people complain about the marker light but honestly it is our psyhic phase. Tau have NO ACCESS to psychic powers. So our base units are going to be a little stronger. Space marines have the chance of getting ignore cover, twin link, invis, the list goes on and on. Tau don't have access to an entire portion of the game, we don't have the option to hand out a 4++ to some random unit so feel no pain on a Riptide is fine. People talk about of broken the TAU are but they aren't. They are inline with a lot of codex's now like,, SM and AM.

About the markerlights being the tau psyker phase, its nothing really like it :p, at least in the Psyker phase you can dtw while you get no such defence against a markerlight

It's still a good comparison. The tau have no access to psychic abilities, they have markers instead..

Markerlights aren't really like psychic abilities, mostly because they are random (apart from prescience which SHOULD NOT be a primaris power) and can be denied (like total0 said).

Markerlights just help Tau shoot well in order to give them a powerful strength. Tau have more weaknesses than other armies as they have no psykers and only one item that can give them some psychic defence, and are awful in combat.

It just so happens that the past two editions favour the Tau's strength (shooting), so just wait until the edition changes and something else becomes the main focus such as psykers being uttely OP or combat being super-awesome, then people will finally stop all of the hating towards us.

 total0 wrote:
About the markerlights being the tau psyker phase, its nothing really like it :p, at least in the Psyker phase you can dtw while you get no such defence against a markerlight

They also can't grant rerollable saves or kill models.

whatever you say on OP, vets are not any where near orig guardsmen, my vets are used better and are more pts than 10 space marines

Sargow wrote:
Tau have NO ACCESS to psychic powers.

So what? Functionally, most armies have little to no psychic phase.

Markerlights don't compensate for a lack of psychic powers, they overcompensate.

Well, mathematically, Tau generally actually underperform in shooting compared to equal points of roughly equivalent units in other armies (fire warriors vs. guardsmen or bolter marines, for instance). At least as long as the latter can get into range.

They are thus built around markerlights, or some other force multiplication factor (which is why they have so many of them).

Alcibiades isn't wrong.

The Tau don't have enough guns to compensate them for their sucky BS in a world of bigger armies, coversaves, etc.
- Giving them the guns would turn them into the Guard.
- Giving them higher BS would be even more broken than what they have now because it would grant absolute reliability and greater points efficiency.

Compare those options with the following: you need to select a platform (for points), then keep them alive, then keep them in range & LOS of preferred targets, then roll to hit with the things. Not to mention that the benefits do not accrue across the whole army automatically for hitting.

So, again, talk about markerlights as "overcompensating" is ridiculous. Without them, many many Tau lists and units would be ridiculously underpowered for the job they're supposed to do. I'm sure given the improvements in other areas of the codex, they wouldn't sink to the level of unplayability seen in 5th Ed, but the variety of competitive lists would drop significantly. Draining all flavour from the army entirely.

Hmm, now that I've done the math, I see that I was wrong. It looks like Guardsmen beat Firewarriors (unless they are in 13-15" or 25-30" range), but Firewarriors beat bolter marines.

Is my math wrong somewhere here?

I'm pegging the cost of a GM at 4 points, assuming that the Sarge costs a bit more than the others even though his price isn't explicitly in the codex..

Equal points of FW and GM:

4 FW vs. 9 GM

FW: 1/2 x 5/6 = 5/12 x 4 = 20/12 = 2,08 = 1.67 dead GM (about 1/6 of total)

GM: 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/8 x 9 = 1 1/8 = 1.12 dead FW (over 1/4 of total)

Equal points of FW and bolter marines:

14 FW vs. 9 BM

FW: 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/3 = 1/9 = x 14 = 14/9 = 1.56 dead BM (about 1/6 of total)

BW: 2/3 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 2/9 x 9 = 18/9 = 2 dead FW (about 1/7 of total)

Sargow wrote:
Tau are fine people complain about the marker light but honestly it is our psyhic phase. Tau have NO ACCESS to psychic powers. So our base units are going to be a little stronger. Space marines have the chance of getting ignore cover, twin link, invis, the list goes on and on. Tau don't have access to an entire portion of the game, we don't have the option to hand out a 4++ to some random unit so feel no pain on a Riptide is fine. People talk about of broken the TAU are but they aren't. They are inline with a lot of codex's now like,, SM and AM.

Deny The Marker.