I've lost entire squads of Grey Hunters to Thunderstorm cannons.
I lost an entire squad of Wolf Guard Terminators w/ Rune Priest and Arjac.
My Blood Claws in a year of play have failed to kill anything.
My Murderfang gets blown to bits long before he can enter melee.
My drop pod has scattered directly in front of my rhino in a narrow passage.
I bought a stormwolf, it killed four tactical marines then got blown to pieces by terminators.

I've been playing this game for a year now, and from my memory (Which I like to think is decent) I've won a grand total of one matches, the guy was playing orks and blew up most of his own force with experimental artillary(?) of some sort. That aside, ever game I've played has been a loss. And not of the 'well that was a good game' kind, more of the 'rapidly growing sense of dread as my opponent moves one model at a time across the board after bitch slapping my Wolf Lord in a single round of combat yet the game has to go on for four more turns' kind.

I've tried, I really have. I don't have the perfect army, nor the perfect tactics. But even when the latter pulls up just fine, and points wise we're level, I get my arse handed to me in bite-sized chunks. Recently I've just started saying 'gg' as soon as that sense of dread kicks in, a feeling in my gut (An unpleasant one) that just tells me to get it over with. Especially when centurions hurl 15 re-rollable shots at any vehicle I own and KO it in a single round.

Next week I'm purchasing the SW half of the Stormclaw box from a guy at my FLGS for £20 (A good deal as they're also decently painted), if they, plus the Stormwolf, fail to make a decent difference I may just call it quits. I'm sorry if these seems ranty, but I just gotta get this off my chest, as I can enjoy the game and the IP but when I'm not having fun I have to ask 'why am I doing this?' I can play other systems where even when losing I can still enjoy myself, where I can still turn things around, but 40k seems to drag on and on and on per match. I spend an hour before each game night setting up a list to the best of what I have, but my excitement just gets squished by a Land Raider that only two weapons I have can actually be damaged by, both of which either miss or are lost very shortly.

If for some bizarre reason anyone is interested, here's last night's list off the top of my head (1550pts);

Warlord Rune Priest w/ Armour of Russ + Lv2 psyker
Wolf Guard termies w/ Chainfist+Assault cannon+Arjac character
Wolf guard squad w/ jump packs+combi-flamer/plasma/melta+twin claws
Blood Claws w/ Wolf Guard PL w/ Twin claws (Stormwolf transport)
Grey Hunters w/ WGPL (Storm Bolter) + Plasma Gun + Power Fist + Wolf Standard (Rhino Transport)
Predator w/ Autocannon+ 2x Heavy Bolters
Murderfang w/ Drop Pod
Stormwolf

That's made out of models I've spent over £200+ on, and I'm highly reluctant to spend anymore. Especially as now, after some paper trials, TWC would be a massive help, but that'd cost between £30 up to £60 for one or two trio's (A single trio will likely not be very effective). I can't help but feel that 40k asks far too much of me both money and time-wise, and I'm reluctant to give anymore unless I'm certain I can actually enjoy the game.

What do you think the role of each of your units is in your army, and how do they support each other?

And do you focus on winning missions or killing the opponent?

Ranor wrote:I've lost entire squads of Grey Hunters to Thunderstorm cannons.
I lost an entire squad of Wolf Guard Terminators w/ Rune Priest and Arjac.
My Blood Claws in a year of play have failed to kill anything.
My Murderfang gets blown to bits long before he can enter melee.
My drop pod has scattered directly in front of my rhino in a narrow passage.
I bought a stormwolf, it killed four tactical marines then got blown to pieces by terminators.

40k is a dice game. The winner isn't necessarily determined by player skill.

Ranor wrote:I've been playing this game for a year now, and from my memory (Which I like to think is decent) I've won a grand total of one matches, the guy was playing orks and blew up most of his own force with experimental artillary(?) of some sort. That aside, ever game I've played has been a loss.

40k is a strategy game. New players tend to loose more than more experienced ones.

Ranor wrote:And not of the 'well that was a good game' kind, more of the 'rapidly growing sense of dread as my opponent moves one model at a time

40k is a war game. That means you lose pieces as the game progresses.

Ranor wrote:Recently I've just started saying 'gg' as soon as that sense of dread kicks in, a feeling in my gut (An unpleasant one) that just tells me to get it over with.

If you don't like the idea of losing, perhaps you shouldn't play a game where there's a winner and a loser?

Really, I don't know what you're looking for. The only thing that has traction is the implication that you're playing a balanced SW army against people who only play gunlines and shut down your ability to do stuff right away. If that's the case, it's a problem with gunlines not, strictly speaking, 40k (this effect exists in other games as well). There are ways to handle gunlines, but you should focus on handling that problem in specific, rather than 40k in general.

I can identify with your feeling. My first year of 40k was a hard one, especially since I was playing Grey Knights and refused to use Inquisition units and Taudar was in its prime.

What helped me was smaller games initially. 1000 and 1500 point games allowed me to come to grips with my units without having too many things on the board. In 7th edition, its very much about objectives and not killing the opponent. I recently won a game with my Grey Knights vs Guard where the score was something like 12-4. I had a total of 9 models left, My librarian, some Termies, a NDK and Storm raven.

You just need to understand what your different units are capable of and how they synergise with your army.

That feeling of dread you have was one I used to have all the time in 6th ed with my GKs. My lists haven't really changed in 7th, but the practice has made it possible for me to win 50% of games I play now.

In the end, Space Wolves are a good army. You just need to learn how to use their units the right way. Practice makes perfect.

Others have said some valid comments, but to me, it looks like half the problem is your attitude.

Seriously, saying 'gg' as things are going south is setting you up to fail, simply by putting you in the wrong frame of mind.

I'm not going to tell you what to do and say 'you should stay' as it is completely your decision. But you need to change some things about yourself before you can really enjoy the game. As you yourself said, your tactics are not perfect. No tactic ever is, the opponent does stuff to hamper your abilities, the dice just go against you. Your tactics don't need to be perfect, they need to be adaptable.

 Ailaros wrote:

Ranor wrote:I've lost entire squads of Grey Hunters to Thunderstorm cannons.
I lost an entire squad of Wolf Guard Terminators w/ Rune Priest and Arjac.
My Blood Claws in a year of play have failed to kill anything.
My Murderfang gets blown to bits long before he can enter melee.
My drop pod has scattered directly in front of my rhino in a narrow passage.
I bought a stormwolf, it killed four tactical marines then got blown to pieces by terminators.

40k is a dice game. The winner isn't necessarily determined by player skill.

Ranor wrote:I've been playing this game for a year now, and from my memory (Which I like to think is decent) I've won a grand total of one matches, the guy was playing orks and blew up most of his own force with experimental artillary(?) of some sort. That aside, ever game I've played has been a loss.

40k is a strategy game. New players tend to loose more than more experienced ones.

Ranor wrote:And not of the 'well that was a good game' kind, more of the 'rapidly growing sense of dread as my opponent moves one model at a time

40k is a war game. That means you lose pieces as the game progresses.

Ranor wrote:Recently I've just started saying 'gg' as soon as that sense of dread kicks in, a feeling in my gut (An unpleasant one) that just tells me to get it over with.

If you don't like the idea of losing, perhaps you shouldn't play a game where there's a winner and a loser?

Really, I don't know what you're looking for. The only thing that has traction is the implication that you're playing a balanced SW army against people who only play gunlines and shut down your ability to do stuff right away. If that's the case, it's a problem with gunlines not, strictly speaking, 40k (this effect exists in other games as well). There are ways to handle gunlines, but you should focus on handling that problem in specific, rather than 40k in general.

I can enjoy games where I lose, such as Infinity, board games and RPGs, because I have fun with the process or the loss happens so quickly I can safely say I was outdone. But in 40k I just feel like I'm slogging through watching my units die off in droves whilst at best I can kill a few tactical marines reliably, anything else will often take down entire squads along with it. Doesn't help when I deal with stuff like demon princes turning invisible (Wut) and flying across the board to cleave an entire squad of my termies apart.

AlexRae wrote:
What do you think the role of each of your units is in your army, and how do they support each other?

And do you focus on winning missions or killing the opponent?

I try to focus on objectives, but it's difficult when there's three little cubes on the board with no cover in the wide open. Anything I sit on them just gets turned to Swiss cheese as soon as my turn is over, and if I try too late my opponent uses his mostly intact force to just pick them up on the last few turns whilst he mops up the last of my units or glances my vehicles to death.

Sounds like you need more cover.

Or you could try TWC spam and just call it a day go wolf punch some folks. should be able to handle Fying DPs and the likes.


Ether that or you are Very unlucky, Playing with more competitive players or metas, or a combination.

Ranor wrote:at best I can kill a few tactical marines reliably, nything else will often take down entire squads along with it. Doesn't help when I deal with stuff like demon princes turning invisible (Wut) and flying across the board to cleave an entire squad of my termies apart.

Well, like you said, you're new. There are ways to kill tac marines in this game, and ways to handle invisible demon princes. Likely you're just not doing any of them.

40k may have a rather shallow level of strategic involvement, but it's learning curve is very steep, nonetheless.

 Desubot wrote:
Sounds like you need more cover.

Or you could try TWC spam and just call it a day go wolf punch some folks. should be able to handle Fying DPs and the likes.


Ether that or you are Very unlucky, Playing with more competitive players or metas, or a combination.

I'd argue it's a mix. I don't blame people for making 'good lists' and for picking the best units of each army, just I've faced the same guy twice in a row in the last two weeks and both times his Centurions bummed half my army and both times they survived the entire game intact. iirc he said they were about 300pts total, including the psyker included in their squad.

I'd rather avoid TWC cheese, not only because I can't afford and would really rather not dump £60 on a game I'm not sure I'll be playing in a few months time, but also because I'd rather not rely on cheese. Simply put, I don't enjoy cheese victories with cheap/spammy tactics. I like having what I'd say is a decently well-rounded army, but it just seems that isn't enough of late.

I recently won my first game.

That was after a break (6th edition was released a month after I left completely, returned at the end of August this year) following ~3 years of playing yet never winning.

You just have to set secondary objectives for yourself (I'm going to destroy one tank this game, I'm going to kill his leader this game, etc.)

Also, you may want to look into buying new dice, My old set always rolled 1's... to the point of rolling 30 1's in a row!

Windchild wrote:
I recently won my first game.

That was after a break (6th edition was released a month after I left completely, returned at the end of August this year) following ~3 years of playing yet never winning.

You just have to set secondary objectives for yourself (I'm going to destroy one tank this game, I'm going to kill his leader this game, etc.)

Also, you may want to look into buying new dice, My old set always rolled 1's... to the point of rolling 30 1's in a row!

I literally just bought my own dice, been using the store's up until now.

But your opponent is using centurion cheese already

TWC is strong but for its price its hardly cheese

Having a unit of fast moving face puncheres is useful in any list.
What models do you exactly have?

 Desubot wrote:
But your opponent is using centurion cheese already

TWC is strong but for its price its hardly cheese

Having a unit of fast moving face puncheres is useful in any list.
What models do you exactly have?

I'll assemble a pic and a precise list later on, all my stuff's packed away.

When you're playing, look at the objectives and win conditions of the game. Play to that, instead of trying to table your opponent. When you play to the objectives, you'll realize it's okay to lose squads because it's about more than that. Also ask your opponents what you could be doing better. If you are terrified over losing units, don't play a war game.

In the end, as others said, it's an attitude problem more than anything. If you don't enjoy it then stop playing. If you keep playing, then you need get to the mindset where it's fine to lose units. It's part of the game.

Play space wolves my self found best way to start is Max out your grey hunters as in full 6 squads if you have points take rhino's. Character wise would stick with just one at that points for me it would be njal that's it. You just don't have enough boots on the ground is the first problem to many points in vehicles.

Second play different missions try using the maelstrom missions the one with the cards. This will help get rid of gun lines and be a more fast moving flow. But if your determined to face gun lines try using land speeders with 2 flamers drop in beside the lines and torch the lot or try landspeeder with missiles gives you options.

Against horde army's templates are key both flame and barrage
Remember though your armour won't survive weight of dice so always go for!objectives and find ways to slow your oppent down kill transports or command squads(IG) or synapse creature for nids.

Against marines plasma and melta are key but always try and outnumber your enemy take lots of grey hunters to kill marines weight of dice is better than 2 powerful shots.

Don't get wrapped up in wins and losses try new things if you don't have the models say this is standing in for x y and z try out new things but you went the wrong way with wolves troops troops troops and some light stuff for support as the games get bigger then add some more vehicles but cheap rhinos and razor backs get your troops where you need them cheap landspeeders for support .

Most of all stop whineing pmsl see it as a chance to try out more I have the opposite problem I win a lot which is boreing so I try out different stuff in order to have better games give the enemy more points or wee special rules if he needs it. I have wolves, orks and dark eldar armies maybe you need to play orks to learn the value of troops over 1 or 2 high points magnets but for feck sake give up 40k if its making you feel this bad its a game nothing else

Ranor wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Sounds like you need more cover.

Or you could try TWC spam and just call it a day go wolf punch some folks. should be able to handle Fying DPs and the likes.


Ether that or you are Very unlucky, Playing with more competitive players or metas, or a combination.

I'd argue it's a mix. I don't blame people for making 'good lists' and for picking the best units of each army, just I've faced the same guy twice in a row in the last two weeks and both times his Centurions bummed half my army and both times they survived the entire game intact. iirc he said they were about 300pts total, including the psyker included in their squad.

I'd rather avoid TWC cheese, not only because I can't afford and would really rather not dump £60 on a game I'm not sure I'll be playing in a few months time, but also because I'd rather not rely on cheese. Simply put, I don't enjoy cheese victories with cheap/spammy tactics. I like having what I'd say is a decently well-rounded army, but it just seems that isn't enough of late.

If you're not going to be bring fire to fight fire, then either:
1. accept that your un-optimised list is going to get hosed by the nasty, filthy "easy mode" list.
2. ask your opponent to tone their cheese down a bit so things are a little more even & balanced.

Also, you should never be afraid to ask your opponent after a game where perhaps they think you went wrong in your tactics/in-game decisions, and what they might have done differently.
If they refuse to help you, odds are they're simply a WaaC's donkey-cave and you simply shouldn't play against them anymore. 9/10 times though, opponents are happy to help you out, suggesting some potential new tactics and/or list alterations to help improve your game.

Honestly it just sounds like you're playing against quite competitive lists (Invisible flying daemon princes) with an incredibly uncompetitive list (footslogging blood claws and tactical termies)

Try this: next game, put the blood claws in the plane, the predator with Lascannons, and the Grey Hunters with flamers in the drop pod. I would say 1 more drop pod (for MURDERFANG) and that would be a halfway decent list. Call the WG jumpers Skyclaws, that's just free points. Turn one you pod in GH into a piece of terrain with an isolated enemy infantry unit-paste them in one round of shooting and claim the cover for yourself. Turn 2, terminators, Skyclaws, Stormwolf, murderboy shows up. Focus on an alpha-strike principle-try to waste things in a single shot before they can react. To that end, I put melta guns on my Termies if I'm running them tactical and drop them near a vehicle.

Then again perhaps it isnt exactly his entire collection.

Personally even for a TAC list it should still be relatively themed

like if you are taking drop pods you are taking them to take the fight to there side of the table and no amount of turtleing is going to stop you. but 1 d pod does not an army make and just because easy FB.

The big problems with your balanced list are:

Blood claws in a plane should not ever ever have a problem getting into cc. Bring them in, drop them down, boom, they're in cc.

That is the single worst predator load out, because your army has PLENTY of anti-infantry weapons in it's melee troops. HBs and ACs are redundant in your list-you need high strength weaponry and las doesn't cost that much more.

That termy squad is unfocused. What is it trying to do? Auto cannon and Thor tells me you want them to be some kind of MC hunters, in which case they want something like Wolf claws/Storm Shields/Power Axes (Thunderhmers kinda stink and you're SWs so you don't need them with your assault termies). But chain fist is an anti vehicle weapon, so they'd rather have a multi-melta. The psycher should ALWAYS go invisibility-fishing.

WG with jump packs are silly when Skyclaws exist. Only reason id do WG is as a melta suicide squad.

I wished 40k was like a video game and it would use a matchmaking algorythm to pair you with equal strenght oponnents, but such is not the case.

If you lose all the time, tell yourself at least that you are either playing with really good oponnents or that ... welll you know...

I don't blame you for feeling the way you do, 40k is a big investment and if your not enjoying the games it can feel like a waste.

I'm no space wolves expert but I'll see if I can give some advice regarding your list.

Warlord Rune Priest w/ Armour of Russ + Lv2 psyker
-Runic armour does pretty much the same thing as armour of Russ and is 15 points cheaper, your rune priest shouldn't need the initiative buff.

Wolf Guard termies w/ Chainfist+Assault cannon+Arjac character
-Like someone else said, chainfist is anti tank while assault cannon is anti infantry. Consider specialising them for hunting one type of enemy.

Wolf guard squad w/ jump packs+combi-flamer/plasma/melta+twin claws
-Same as with the termies. IMO have squads of 5 maybe and give them all meltas and a drop pod so they can go after tanks.

Blood Claws w/ Wolf Guard PL w/ Twin claws (Stormwolf transport)
-Blood Claws are iffy cause of their low BS and WS, if you insist on taking them this is probably a good way of running them.

Grey Hunters w/ WGPL (Storm Bolter) + Plasma Gun + Power Fist + Wolf Standard (Rhino Transport)
-I'm not a big fan of squad leaders but that's my preference. The Power First and Wolf Standard aren't really necessary. Consider plasma guns. You should get more squads of Grey Hunters cause their good!

Predator w/ Autocannon+ 2x Heavy Bolters
-Give it Lascannons! Your seriously lacking long range anti tank and this will help.

Murderfang w/ Drop Pod
-I've fought him, he's horrible to fight against, but don't rely on him. When you deep strike place the drop pod as close to the enemy as possible staying 12" from a table edge then he can move 6" after disembarking towards the enemy and use those nasty flamers.

Stormwolf
-Give it meltas and pray it comes in early. The turn it arrives try to keep it out of range of anything with interceptor if possible and target the things with skyfire first. Don't just use it for a transport cause it has some powerful weapons.

Hope this doesn't come across as patronising, you may already know it, someone else might know better, hope it helps and that you can start enjoying the hobby again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you have any questions about what I said feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer

Perhaps you should consider playing team match ups?

Honestly the best would be to find a local who is skilled at 40K and get them to play some teaching games against you. I do this sometimes and I usually give the other player a 30% handicap on pts for their list. I will also usually help the person with a variety of advice, like not DSing a drop pod in a place it could block his transport.

Unless you like making new lists I would just make a single really good take all comers list (perhaps get some help in the list building forum, expect to play with less than your entire collection though). I spend maybe 10 min a week making a new list when I feel like it. If you are spending an hour each time on list building and you don't like it then don't spend so long doing it.

It sounds like you really need to spend some more time just playing 750 pts games. They are ~1 hour to play and limit the amount of "shell shock" you can take in a single turn. They make for much better experience for inexperienced players.

Losing is tough. Trust me, I've won 2, had 1 or 2 draws, and about 14 losses. It sounds like your list may need tweaking, you may be going up against full WAAC guys who are playing their strongest lists, or you are making some tactical errors. It could even be bad dice, or all of the above.

My advice would be to talk to some of the guys around you who are winning and watch some of their fights. Also, look up some lists online and some battle reports for your army. See what works and what doesn't. Finally, watch A LOT of games. You will notice what good moves and bad moves players make. It may seem overwhelming, but if you want to improve, short of buying the top tier army and models, this will help out greatly.

3 Years experience, I learned very early on not to take blood claws when Grey Hunters are the same price.

The one time I did in the last 2 years though, I put them with Lukas and a Wolf Priest, and rolled outflank on warlord traits for Wolf Priest.

They came in turn 2, wiped 2 squads of cultists and most of a full bloodletter squad before a lonely Lukas "laughed" Skarbrand into the abyss. Luck? Definitely.

Lots of good advice in this thread.

Firstly I suggest playing a game with double the amount of terrian and seeing how you get on. Make a narrative for a fight in a dense city. You might find the extra cover gives you some protection and makes for a more enjoyable game for both of you.

Second, play smaller games. 750pts or maybe even Kill Team. You could also play some games of 'Combat Patrol' which will limit the nasties your opponent can take.

If you play with regulars or friends, explain to them your frustrations and I'm sure they'll be looking to accommodate you and make the games more enjoyable for both.

Taffy17 wrote:
I don't blame you for feeling the way you do, 40k is a big investment and if your not enjoying the games it can feel like a waste.

I'm no space wolves expert but I'll see if I can give some advice regarding your list.

Warlord Rune Priest w/ Armour of Russ + Lv2 psyker
-Runic armour does pretty much the same thing as armour of Russ and is 15 points cheaper, your rune priest shouldn't need the initiative buff.

Wolf Guard termies w/ Chainfist+Assault cannon+Arjac character
-Like someone else said, chainfist is anti tank while assault cannon is anti infantry. Consider specialising them for hunting one type of enemy.

Wolf guard squad w/ jump packs+combi-flamer/plasma/melta+twin claws
-Same as with the termies. IMO have squads of 5 maybe and give them all meltas and a drop pod so they can go after tanks.

Blood Claws w/ Wolf Guard PL w/ Twin claws (Stormwolf transport)
-Blood Claws are iffy cause of their low BS and WS, if you insist on taking them this is probably a good way of running them.

Grey Hunters w/ WGPL (Storm Bolter) + Plasma Gun + Power Fist + Wolf Standard (Rhino Transport)
-I'm not a big fan of squad leaders but that's my preference. The Power First and Wolf Standard aren't really necessary. Consider plasma guns. You should get more squads of Grey Hunters cause their good!

Predator w/ Autocannon+ 2x Heavy Bolters
-Give it Lascannons! Your seriously lacking long range anti tank and this will help.

Murderfang w/ Drop Pod
-I've fought him, he's horrible to fight against, but don't rely on him. When you deep strike place the drop pod as close to the enemy as possible staying 12" from a table edge then he can move 6" after disembarking towards the enemy and use those nasty flamers.

Stormwolf
-Give it meltas and pray it comes in early. The turn it arrives try to keep it out of range of anything with interceptor if possible and target the things with skyfire first. Don't just use it for a transport cause it has some powerful weapons.

Hope this doesn't come across as patronising, you may already know it, someone else might know better, hope it helps and that you can start enjoying the hobby again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you have any questions about what I said feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer

As a spacewolve player, i can said all the above is right, but i wil give you a simple advice: learn from your loses
If you faild to kill tacticasl, well, suit your grey hunters with weaponary to kill MEQ, a squad of 10 grey hunters with 2 plasma rifles and one plasma pistol (remember the grey hunter using the plasma pistol, can shoot this bolt pistol too), with the wolfguard carrying a combiplasma in a drop pod, thats 7 plasma shots of pain, or if you are facing a vehicle spam army, suit yopur grey hunters with meltas, another thing, never put so many point on the wolf guard leaders, maybe a combi weapon that goes in pair with the weapons of the squad.
A good combo i find it was a rune priest on bike, ML 2 using biomancy, Rune armour, bolt pistol and rune sword, just join it to a squad of TWC and the drink the tears of your opponent while you cast endurance and life leech, pure evil
Another take, you could change mcmuder for a venareble dread with shield and axe, that thing is a sponge, absorve shots like nobody else in the game.
Another thing, drop the wolfguard with jumppacks, if you want a mobile squad bettet give them bikes, they win rescilence and speed, give them some combi weapons, 2 shieds and one power fisto and call it a good unit.
For termies, better equip them with combiweapons, if you want to kill some marines, in a squad of 5, 4 combiplasmas, 4power swords, and the wolfguard leader give him a TH and a SS, if you want to kiil tanks, multi meltas and power mauls, and again TH and SS on the WG leader
Hope this help you

Just because you gave some Space Wolves bolt pistols.. doesn't make them Blood Claws. <Cough Grey Hunters Cough>

Blood claws in a flying brick... its a LOT of eggs in one expensive basket that may not come in till turn 4, and may crash and kill everyone..

I've played SW for a long time. The problem is you're using most of the worst units in the codex. WG, both power and terminator armor, cost way too much considering how easily they die and tthe other stuff you can get for those points. Blood claws are just terrible all the way around. Murderfang is a close combat dread in an edition where dreads are mediocre at best and close combat is an afterthought. You're mixing transport types. Either go full rhino rush or all drop pods with a flyer. Your grey hunters take a power fist which is probably the biggest waste of 25 points in the entire codex. Predators are nothing to write home about either. I would much rather have long fangs. The rune priest, GH and flyer are the only things in your list I would ever consider taking if I cared about winning. Yes, your list is fluffy and probably very similar to what a real SW army would look like. The problem is you want to win and this list is not going to do that unless you're playing an awful list or a hapless noob who doesn't know how to use his army. Here's my average SW list for comparison.
Rune priest in TDA
3 squads of 10 GH, CCWs, 2 melta, WG Sgt with combi melta
All 3 squads in drop pods
stormfang
SM allies
tigurius
2 tac squads, melta, Sgt with combi melta
3 grav cents

Tig and the cents ride in a fast attack pod. Rune priest goes with a min tac squad in a pod. This list has tabled every faction besides tau and eldar multiple times. It can deal with super heavies, flyers and hordes. It has 10 obsec units, air support and a death star with re rolls to hit, re rolls to wound and 4+ invulns. If you want to be competitive with space wolves, either use this pod/melta/cent list or a TWC list. I've tried about every other SW list possible and they all pretty much suck competitively. I have a shelf full of dusty dreads, tanks, scouts and wolf guard terminators because they simply don't win games.

He's understandably hesitant to buy new models and here you are trashing his list and basically advising him to buy a new army (SM) so he can run a carbon-copy netlist. Nice one.

On the verge of quitting?

Bye then.

Have you tried playing casual games?

For context; the last few weeks have all been matches within a campaign at my FLGS. We work in teams of 2 and try to take as many hexagons on a board as we can, each granting an extra 50pts with some allowing us to take fliers, deep strike or take extra troops. Thankfully my team-mate is a hardcore necron player, who even without Necrons (Which as far as I can tell he doesn't do full cheese with as another guy does) is a very good player. But every match I've done, I've lost, hence my frustrations.

When I get home I'll list every model I own, and using the feedback I'll see if I can assemble a new list. A quick question though; would it be worth taking a venerable dread over murderfang? With the blizzard shield + greataxe it gains a 3+ invul in melee on all sides and on the front (Which I've noticed is the most frequently shot place on murderfang, for obvious reasons) granting much greater survivability, and whilst it will deal many less attacks than Murderfang, and lacks any ranged weapons, the axe will hit like a truck and will most likely kill whatever it hits (Unless I roll snake eyes or something).

That aside, I would like to point out Blood Claws are cheaper than GHs now, but I do agree perhaps I should drop the power fists. The downside of this means both my troop choices will be less effective against anything that isn't also infantry, but those are 25/50pts I could put towards something else. From next week I'll have the Stormclaw models and the formation as well, I've forgotten what the points total of them is but if I recall their formation lets me re-roll to hits or something along those lines.

You should post your list in the Army list section and state that you don't want to buy new models and operate with what you've got right now. I'm sure that it can be a bit optimised to help you out. But if you don't clearly state that you want to use exactly what you own, you'll get spammed with replies like: "Spam thunderwolf cavalry".

 koooaei wrote:
You should post your list in the Army list section and state that you don't want to buy new models and operate with what you've got right now. I'm sure that it can be a bit optimised to help you out. But if you don't clearly state that you want to use exactly what you own, you'll get spammed with replies like: "Spam thunderwolf cavalry".

Funnily enough that's what's happened whenever I asked for recommendations from friends and opponents alike The fact is I can't throw away £60+ like it's nothing (And the store has nothing I can use to proxy as I do with the dread, predator, rhino and drop pod).

I will add however, that I am thinking of cutting back on the termies and buying some tactical models off ebay dirt cheap (literally £5 atm for a pack of ten, just have to check they're unpainted or just primed. I had to strip paint before, it was messy and ended up being a lot more work than it was worth. And it broke all the models apart. :( ) and fielding them as BC, GH or WG as required. I have a sneaking suspicion that I may benefit better from fielding lots of infantry with a number of special weapons, over lumping all my points into a decked out termie squad that gets turned into red paste by Sternguard equipped with poison ammo in one round of shooting.

To answer the dread question: I have found that shieldaxe Mcshieldaxe is much better value than Murderboy I'm personally a Bjorn man but I use them for entirely different purposes.

Ranor wrote:
I've lost entire squads of Grey Hunters to Thunderstorm cannons.
I lost an entire squad of Wolf Guard Terminators w/ Rune Priest and Arjac.
My Blood Claws in a year of play have failed to kill anything.
My Murderfang gets blown to bits long before he can enter melee.
My drop pod has scattered directly in front of my rhino in a narrow passage.
I bought a stormwolf, it killed four tactical marines then got blown to pieces by terminators.

I've been playing this game for a year now, and from my memory (Which I like to think is decent) I've won a grand total of one matches, the guy was playing orks and blew up most of his own force with experimental artillary(?) of some sort. That aside, ever game I've played has been a loss. And not of the 'well that was a good game' kind, more of the 'rapidly growing sense of dread as my opponent moves one model at a time across the board after bitch slapping my Wolf Lord in a single round of combat yet the game has to go on for four more turns' kind.

I've tried, I really have. I don't have the perfect army, nor the perfect tactics. But even when the latter pulls up just fine, and points wise we're level, I get my arse handed to me in bite-sized chunks. Recently I've just started saying 'gg' as soon as that sense of dread kicks in, a feeling in my gut (An unpleasant one) that just tells me to get it over with. Especially when centurions hurl 15 re-rollable shots at any vehicle I own and KO it in a single round.

Next week I'm purchasing the SW half of the Stormclaw box from a guy at my FLGS for £20 (A good deal as they're also decently painted), if they, plus the Stormwolf, fail to make a decent difference I may just call it quits. I'm sorry if these seems ranty, but I just gotta get this off my chest, as I can enjoy the game and the IP but when I'm not having fun I have to ask 'why am I doing this?' I can play other systems where even when losing I can still enjoy myself, where I can still turn things around, but 40k seems to drag on and on and on per match. I spend an hour before each game night setting up a list to the best of what I have, but my excitement just gets squished by a Land Raider that only two weapons I have can actually be damaged by, both of which either miss or are lost very shortly.

If for some bizarre reason anyone is interested, here's last night's list off the top of my head (1550pts);

Warlord Rune Priest w/ Armour of Russ + Lv2 psyker
Wolf Guard termies w/ Chainfist+Assault cannon+Arjac character
Wolf guard squad w/ jump packs+combi-flamer/plasma/melta+twin claws
Blood Claws w/ Wolf Guard PL w/ Twin claws (Stormwolf transport)
Grey Hunters w/ WGPL (Storm Bolter) + Plasma Gun + Power Fist + Wolf Standard (Rhino Transport)
Predator w/ Autocannon+ 2x Heavy Bolters
Murderfang w/ Drop Pod
Stormwolf

That's made out of models I've spent over £200+ on, and I'm highly reluctant to spend anymore. Especially as now, after some paper trials, TWC would be a massive help, but that'd cost between £30 up to £60 for one or two trio's (A single trio will likely not be very effective). I can't help but feel that 40k asks far too much of me both money and time-wise, and I'm reluctant to give anymore unless I'm certain I can actually enjoy the game.

I want you to think about this;

Do you really want a game where a relative beginner can reasonably expect to match up against a veteran?

Or do you want a game where the better play(er) determines the outcome?

Think of Chess. With the armies being equal (except that White is totally OP 'cos it always starts ), the game is determined by the players....and nobody expects a novice to beat a grand master.

Think of any FPS video-game. In the beginning you will be pwned pretty hard and pretty regularly. You might even think that the noobs are botting or wall-hacking......but we all know the actual truth.
The fact is that we just aren't that good at the game yet.....but if we stick it out, we will be.

What I am trying to say is; take your licks and slowly get better.
Contrary to most "Internet wisdom" no army-list is auto-win.
This game has somewhat of a learning-curve.
Take the time to think about your games afterwards. Think about what happened (and no, it wasn't the dice....forget about blaming the dice) and what you could have done differently.

Before a game, think about how you are going to win and how you are going to not lose.
Those are two different things.
Winning is about having the units to score objectives, having mobility and/or ripping the heart out of the opponents army with a death-star.
Not losing is about being able to kill enemy death-stars, defending against flyer or drop armies and/or being able to handle both infantry-heavy armies as well as tank-heavy ones.

In the end it is all about playing better.....and we can't teach you that here. You have to do that yourself by playing, perhaps with the help of your group.

All we can do here is present you with generalities, but implementing those is up to you.
We can say; "Shoot the choppy ones , and chop the shooty ones"
Or "Present the enemy with enough choices of who to shoot, that he is left with no good choices, AKA target saturation"
Or "Throw sacrificial speed-bump units in the way of your enemy's most potent melee unit, to slow it down"
Or "Send your best unit against his second-best, your second-best against his third-best and your third-best against his best"
Or "A units doesn't have to kill anything (ever) to have an impact on the game. If it draws fire away form a more important unit, it did its job, as long as the important unit took that opportunity to do good stuff"

And so on and so on....

Keep it up....or give up. It's entirely up to you.

But in the end it comes down to the fact that he bought the wrong models to play SW. He doesn't have TWC, he doesn't use drop pods for centurions ally ,he takes blood claws , single dreads, takers murderfang over a SS dread and mixed rhinos and drop pods , when it should either be flyers with drop pods or spamed rhinos.

SW aren't eldar where one has to try to make a bad list from random picked units and that is what he more or less did.

He took terminators for gods sake.

Sure, taking sub-optimal lists wont get you a top 16 placing at a GT, but this guy is looking for a couple of wins not a tournament trophy.

You mentioned objectives being in the open. Remember you get to place half of them. Put them in places you know you can hold them. Put them in cover, behind LOS blockers etc.

Centurions with a libby are good, and I am sure he is probably gating around or making them invisible. That's 500ish pts of his army. Try and focus on the other units so he cant score objectives.

If a player has something that seems unkillable, then trying to kill it is a futile exercise. Focus on his scoring troops instead.

I would be interested in hearing a battle report from you next time you play in as much detail as possible.

Also you didnt answer me regarding what you thought the roles were of the units in your army and how they interact and support each other.

I take a beating quite often in 40K, but I always come back for more! Sure it's annoying when I do lose (particularly when I seem unable to put my brother's annoyingly accurate Defiler down permanently).

On the other hand, (in the nicest possible way) maybe Space Wolves don't fit your style of play?

Ranor wrote:


I try to focus on objectives, but it's difficult when there's three little cubes on the board with no cover in the wide open. Anything I sit on them just gets turned to Swiss cheese as soon as my turn is over, and if I try too late my opponent uses his mostly intact force to just pick them up on the last few turns whilst he mops up the last of my units or glances my vehicles to death.

Hang on hang on.

Who places the objectives? You're supposed to take turns doing so, allowing you to pop one nicely in cover. I'm gonna suggest someone's been having you on.

Also, try playing against other newbs, and maybe even without objectives. I recently played a last man standing game which was hilariously fun! Neither of us were really interested in winning, just getting used to the rules and such.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Ranor wrote:


I try to focus on objectives, but it's difficult when there's three little cubes on the board with no cover in the wide open. Anything I sit on them just gets turned to Swiss cheese as soon as my turn is over, and if I try too late my opponent uses his mostly intact force to just pick them up on the last few turns whilst he mops up the last of my units or glances my vehicles to death.

Hang on hang on.

Who places the objectives? You're supposed to take turns doing so, allowing you to pop one nicely in cover. I'm gonna suggest someone's been having you on.

Also, try playing against other newbs, and maybe even without objectives. I recently played a last man standing game which was hilariously fun! Neither of us were really interested in winning, just getting used to the rules and such.

The campaign organiser has been setting them on the game boards prior to the start of each evening's campaign night. They're represented by three random bits or pieces of terrain of the same size/scale and placed up the middle of the board, evenly spread. So one close to me, one in the middle, and one near the opponent. As far as I know they're not unusual objectives or the like, they just award points if you hold them when the game ends. Which as I've described, is difficult, as I get blown away long before I can land one, or I manage to get some units on an objective only to have them killed even if it's literally the last turn.

It's tricky finding newbs as I've previously found, everyone at my FLGS seems reasonably experienced at the least. I gotta confess, I might just be a dumbass. I played the Dark Vengeance box-set at one point (Me as Chaos, opponent as DA) against a kid no older than eight. His warlord merrily skipped through the entire chaos army with an absurd number of attacks, with everything I threw back at him just bouncing off, and his tacticals out of range of everything I had (As I recall, Chaos gets a bit shafted in the box set? Pretty sure the only marines kin it are mostly or pure melee orientated with two squads of cultists and a hellbrute that took face fulls of plasma).

The Dice Gods hate you.

As others have metioned this game has a steep learning curve, and you never really stop learning on how to improve your game.

List building can help or hinder you, but it's not the end all of the game. Strategy and Luck factor in pretty heavily when you play.

Field units that interest you and enjoy playing. You "win" if you have fun, you don't have to win the match to have fun.

I've had matches where I've won with nothing but a hastily thrown together list of models on hand. Other times I've sat their in horror as my well designed force falls appart while I roll buckets of dice and fail to accomplish anything. They are all fun. Some of the best war stories in my gaming group are all about the epic failures.

I noticed you said the campaign organizer sets up terrain. Sounds like organized play, which tends to be extra competitive. Perhaps try talking some of the veteran players into a more casual game. There is always some vet player willing to take a newbie under their wing and teach them their secrets.

Also, just try talking to your fellow players about strategy after they game.

"What do you think I could have done differently to improve my game?"

"What do you think I did right, that gave you the most trouble during the game ?

Ranor wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Ranor wrote:


I try to focus on objectives, but it's difficult when there's three little cubes on the board with no cover in the wide open. Anything I sit on them just gets turned to Swiss cheese as soon as my turn is over, and if I try too late my opponent uses his mostly intact force to just pick them up on the last few turns whilst he mops up the last of my units or glances my vehicles to death.

Hang on hang on.

Who places the objectives? You're supposed to take turns doing so, allowing you to pop one nicely in cover. I'm gonna suggest someone's been having you on.

Also, try playing against other newbs, and maybe even without objectives. I recently played a last man standing game which was hilariously fun! Neither of us were really interested in winning, just getting used to the rules and such.

The campaign organiser has been setting them on the game boards prior to the start of each evening's campaign night. They're represented by three random bits or pieces of terrain of the same size/scale and placed up the middle of the board, evenly spread. So one close to me, one in the middle, and one near the opponent. As far as I know they're not unusual objectives or the like, they just award points if you hold them when the game ends. Which as I've described, is difficult, as I get blown away long before I can land one, or I manage to get some units on an objective only to have them killed even if it's literally the last turn.

It's tricky finding newbs as I've previously found, everyone at my FLGS seems reasonably experienced at the least. I gotta confess, I might just be a dumbass. I played the Dark Vengeance box-set at one point (Me as Chaos, opponent as DA) against a kid no older than eight. His warlord merrily skipped through the entire chaos army with an absurd number of attacks, with everything I threw back at him just bouncing off, and his tacticals out of range of everything I had (As I recall, Chaos gets a bit shafted in the box set? Pretty sure the only marines kin it are mostly or pure melee orientated with two squads of cultists and a hellbrute that took face fulls of plasma).

Have you tried playing with someone more experienced and having him give you tips? That or if you have two really good friends/players, have one fight you and the other be your advisor. The first two 40k games I played were straight up 500 point kill teams. The guy was super cool, taught me a lot of the rules, reminded me about when to use things like Look Out Sir, moving squads with heavies, the whole nine yards. Trust me, it gets better, but 40k is more tactics than gambling. Yeah, the dice can throw you, but where you deploy and how REALLY swings the game.

Ranor wrote:


The campaign organiser has been setting them on the game boards prior to the start of each evening's campaign night. They're represented by three random bits or pieces of terrain of the same size/scale and placed up the middle of the board, evenly spread. So one close to me, one in the middle, and one near the opponent. As far as I know they're not unusual objectives or the like, they just award points if you hold them when the game ends. Which as I've described, is difficult, as I get blown away long before I can land one, or I manage to get some units on an objective only to have them killed even if it's literally the last turn.

It's tricky finding newbs as I've previously found, everyone at my FLGS seems reasonably experienced at the least. I gotta confess, I might just be a dumbass. I played the Dark Vengeance box-set at one point (Me as Chaos, opponent as DA) against a kid no older than eight. His warlord merrily skipped through the entire chaos army with an absurd number of attacks, with everything I threw back at him just bouncing off, and his tacticals out of range of everything I had (As I recall, Chaos gets a bit shafted in the box set? Pretty sure the only marines kin it are mostly or pure melee orientated with two squads of cultists and a hellbrute that took face fulls of plasma).

Don't worry about the DV set; the DA have about 100-200 points more than the CSM, which is substantial when your army is approximately 500 points, which is exceptionally cruel considering your army includes two uselessly small squads of Cultists and expensive Chosen. Cultists and Chosen can be very good, don't get me wrong, but 10-man squads of Cultists is absolutely useless.

Can you maybe ask the campaign organiser to match you with easier opponents? Have you read this btw? It might be of some help

if you quit can I have your stuff?

For those that asked, here are the total models I own;

Tacticals (referring to regular marines, can be used as BCs, GHs, WG, etc) = 32
Termies = 9
Scouts = 6 (Never used really. Don't appear to be worth their points from what I can tell.)
Drop pods = 1
Stormwolf = 1

Models I can borrow from the store;

About 20 tacticals if need be, max.
Predator.
Rhino.
Drop pod.
Two dreadnoughts.
A land raider (though another fellow uses it frequently).
A stormraven/stormwolf (If unused).

After digging through my box of mini's I've also found a number of bits I had completely forgotten about. Mostly half-assembled/broken tacts but also a few long fangs. I could assemble;

Long fangs = 5
Tacts = 10

Or thereabouts, but there's a problem. Each of these bits is in a horrid state. Either broken, poorly painted, obvious signs of shoddy/minimal paint stripping, blobbing of glue and paint in recesses, etc. I could assemble these, but it'd be a decent chunk of work for a total of fifteen marine models.

As for what I had in mind for my current synergy, well, needless to say a lot of this will seem dumb and clearly doesn't work after my recent games;

I had WG termies for the purpose of supporting the Priest. When I first attained them this worked decently, but in the last few months suddenly terminators seem to be a bit of a waste of points. I am contemplating trimming them out altogether or only taking the ones from the Stormclaw set for the detachment bonus. Up until now I've deepstriked them since the new codex allows it, but this is rapidly proving unreliable. May tuck them in a second stormwolf and make them choppy if I do take any termies at all. They've, as said, previously been quite standard in their build. But of late I was leaning towards dropping the AC and instead just kitting them for melee, that was before they got filled with helfire bolter rounds.

WG w/ jump packs were intended to act as fast harassment, sadly this never worked. Will definitely remove.

The grey hunters up to now have always taken CCW's, but I'm thinking of dropping those as I now have plenty of blood claws to fulfill the choppy role. The 20pts can be put towards upgrades for either squad. Up to now they've all had CCW's, a Wolf Guard Pack Leader (w/ Storm Bolter), Wolf standard and a plasma gun.

Blood Claws as said are intended to bog down enemy squads and units in melee combat, with a massive punch spat out of a stormwolf on the initial charge at least. This works, up to a point. As soon as they need to tackle something remotely elite their low WS causes lots of misses and the generally lacking strength makes tackling vehicles difficult if not impossible. Up to now they've had a PF, WGPL w/ twin claws and a Flamer.

Drop pod. Carrying a dreadnought or infantry. Not much to say here except my positioning was likely poor (As said, it once scattered directly infront of my own rhino, blocking it's way to the front).

Murderfang was intended to be dropped in and maul standard infantry quickly so I could turn my attention and army elsewhere. Would help if he didn't get mauled himself first. Will likely exchange for vendread with a shield and axe. Less attacks but it has a higher chance of making it into melee before dying.

Stormwolf. I took heavybolters last time as I was under the impression that they would aid against infantry, which it did, but then it struggled against the land raider redeemer. Will take meltas next time no doubt about it.

Predator. I may just fully deck it with las in the future, I see now I have enough to be able to cope with infantry. I was initially put off as las only allows one shot on the sponsons, but better I -can- damage a heavy vehicle than not at all. Also helpful for forcing enemy units to take their more risky invul save.

The Rune Priest. Once a Wolf Lord, who kept dying and did little to help any games. I usually take the psychic powers within the codex. But whilst they are very powerful, they lack any kind of 'support' capability for my own units, will at the very least try a different school of powers. In addition I will try using runic armour instead of termie/russ armour.


If I did take TWC, I'd likely deck as many with Thunderhammers and Stormshields as I can. Yes they strike last, but they gain a 3+ invul, and a Wolf Priest would grant them Feel No Pain (If I recall right) on top of that, plus re-rolling ones. But unless my calculations are wrong, they'd be at 25 or so attacks on a charge, S10 and AP2. They'd most likely butcher anything they come into contact with unless I rolled absurdly few hits. At least that's my idea. The alternative is to either swap out the hammers for frost swords or the like, or just give them all double wolf claws for 30 attacks with shred.

I'd like to thank those of you taking a moment to lend advice and encouragement. I enjoy the game in of itself, but I do have difficulty seeing straight when I feel like a punching bag.

5-6 TWC with a rune priest and a wolf lord with ally space marine white scar librarian or chapter master to give spread hit and run around.
The HQs have the option to hit at I with force weapons or claws, then TWC hit with thunder hammers and claws. 4 TWC with hammers and 2 with claws all with storm shield.

an alternative option to the white scara HQ, would be a Iron Hands chapter master with TH and eternal shield. no hit an run, but you would get a super +2/++3 tank with IWND.
the rest of the army would be cheap 5 man scouts as ally troops and 5 man BC or GH in rhinos or drop pods to deploy on objective and burn through those mission cards fast.

When i first started playing warhammer and 40k it took me a good 18 months before i started winning anything like half the games i played, but as a very good player told me, you learn more from a loss than you do a victory.

A very good place to start is to keep a record of your battles, and think about which units underperformed, and the reasons (poor placement, poor loadout etc) any mistakes you made (you can ask your opponent) and so forth. don't make sweeping changes based on one battle, but rather look at any trends you notice, does a particular unit regularly underperform, and why?

One of the biggest mistakes i can see from your list is that you are buying upgrades that are strictly not required, these eat into points that you could otherwise spend on more units. Just because a unit or model can take an upgrade, doesn't mean he has to. For example, powerfists on 1 wound models are usually a waste as they usually get killed in a challenge before they strike, and melta bombs are cheaper and do more damage to vehicles.

Its also worth running multiples of certain units, if you have a squad of grey hunters that are armed with lots of plasma guns that are optimised for killing MEQ's, and you lose that unit, having a backup can save the day!

Troops are also key, having lots of units that can secure objectives means that you can play to the games objectives, rather than try to table your opponent. While it doesn't happen frequently, sometimes you can win on VP's with a handful of models, even if you have been almost tabled, and your opponents army is largely untouched. I've also lost games when i've almost tabled people, but they have scored more VP's from objectives, so keep in mind what you have to do to win.

Some elite units are massive points sinks, they will certainly make an impact, but try not to invest too many points in them because you will find yourself massively outnumbered, even elite troops can be brought down by weight of fire.

Finally. Army selection is a key phase of the game, and planning how your army will work before the game, and choosing units to make that strategy work means that when it comes time to play the battle, your army is an army, rather than a selection of units you like.

Ranor: Re those painted models you've dug up- get them in a 1:1 mix of Dettol liquid anti-septic and water in a sealed container (in my case what used to be an ice cream tub). Leave them to soak for 24hrs. Then scrub with a cheap (or old) toothbrush- the paint will come off quite easily. Then you can rinse them off and repaint them when dry. Hello Long Fangs. Hello extra Blood Claw/Grey Hunters. Any damaged ones you can fix up with any spare bitz you might have.

Oh and one more thing: Wear gloves! It's a bit messy!

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Ranor: Re those painted models you've dug up- get them in a 1:1 mix of Dettol liquid anti-septic and water in a sealed container (in my case what used to be an ice cream tub). Leave them to soak for 24hrs. Then scrub with a cheap (or old) toothbrush- the paint will come off quite easily. Then you can rinse them off and repaint them when dry. Hello Long Fangs. Hello extra Blood Claw/Grey Hunters. Any damaged ones you can fix up with any spare bitz you might have.

Oh and one more thing: Wear gloves! It's a bit messy!

I rang up my old bud to ask what's up with those old models. tl;dr: He tried to paint strip using Fairy Power Spray. It worked for the most part, but it has left big blobs of hardened glue and mucky paint in the recesses. I've paint stripped before in the same way and it wasn't pretty. Regardless, I'll give it a shot if I can buy some dettol, if not power spray.

Oh man Foot power armor is hard to make work besides taking them in huuuuuge numbers

Perhaps play at lower points and go double pod and the rhino.

maybe a good idea to las cannon long fangs maybe for some ranged anti tank.

 Desubot wrote:
Oh man Foot power armor is hard to make work besides taking them in huuuuuge numbers

Perhaps play at lower points and go double pod and the rhino.

maybe a good idea to las cannon long fangs maybe for some ranged anti tank.

Tricky, as the campaign last time had escalated to 1550pts per player. I must have had to borrow half the store's SM stuff to even physically get to that, and it'll only go higher until the campaign ends in late November.

Well an escalation campaign is made to promote in store purchases so you might be sol. You might want to drop and just focus on what you have. Maybe 1k games at most. Because it's only going to get worse in a escalation league

It took me 2 years to win my first game. It was hard when fighting 2 chaos armies back in 2nd ed. But i stuck to it and got my first win eventually. Play with what you like and the win will come soon enough.

 Desubot wrote:
Well an escalation campaign is made to promote in store purchases so you might be sol. You might want to drop and just focus on what you have. Maybe 1k games at most. Because it's only going to get worse in a escalation league

I'm not sure if it's -the- escalation. In either case, the campaign is based on the usual hexagon grid. But we seem to be entering peaking point, with more players on the board than ever I suspect it'll be much harder to maintain more than 1500pts for a few weeks solid.

In any case, taking what I have I'll sit with the codex tomorrow and write up a more efficient list. Taking into account the incoming Stormclaw force and such.

Ranor wrote:
For those that asked, here are the total models I own;

Tacticals (referring to regular marines, can be used as BCs, GHs, WG, etc) = 32
Termies = 9
Scouts = 6 (Never used really. Don't appear to be worth their points from what I can tell.)
Drop pods = 1
Stormwolf = 1

Models I can borrow from the store;

About 20 tacticals if need be, max.
Predator.
Rhino.
Drop pod.
Two dreadnoughts.
A land raider (though another fellow uses it frequently).
A stormraven/stormwolf (If unused).

After digging through my box of mini's I've also found a number of bits I had completely forgotten about. Mostly half-assembled/broken tacts but also a few long fangs. I could assemble;

Long fangs = 5
Tacts = 10

Or thereabouts, but there's a problem. Each of these bits is in a horrid state. Either broken, poorly painted, obvious signs of shoddy/minimal paint stripping, blobbing of glue and paint in recesses, etc. I could assemble these, but it'd be a decent chunk of work for a total of fifteen marine models.

As for what I had in mind for my current synergy, well, needless to say a lot of this will seem dumb and clearly doesn't work after my recent games;

I had WG termies for the purpose of supporting the Priest. When I first attained them this worked decently, but in the last few months suddenly terminators seem to be a bit of a waste of points. I am contemplating trimming them out altogether or only taking the ones from the Stormclaw set for the detachment bonus. Up until now I've deepstriked them since the new codex allows it, but this is rapidly proving unreliable. May tuck them in a second stormwolf and make them choppy if I do take any termies at all. They've, as said, previously been quite standard in their build. But of late I was leaning towards dropping the AC and instead just kitting them for melee, that was before they got filled with helfire bolter rounds.

WG w/ jump packs were intended to act as fast harassment, sadly this never worked. Will definitely remove.

The grey hunters up to now have always taken CCW's, but I'm thinking of dropping those as I now have plenty of blood claws to fulfill the choppy role. The 20pts can be put towards upgrades for either squad. Up to now they've all had CCW's, a Wolf Guard Pack Leader (w/ Storm Bolter), Wolf standard and a plasma gun.

Blood Claws as said are intended to bog down enemy squads and units in melee combat, with a massive punch spat out of a stormwolf on the initial charge at least. This works, up to a point. As soon as they need to tackle something remotely elite their low WS causes lots of misses and the generally lacking strength makes tackling vehicles difficult if not impossible. Up to now they've had a PF, WGPL w/ twin claws and a Flamer.

Drop pod. Carrying a dreadnought or infantry. Not much to say here except my positioning was likely poor (As said, it once scattered directly infront of my own rhino, blocking it's way to the front).

Murderfang was intended to be dropped in and maul standard infantry quickly so I could turn my attention and army elsewhere. Would help if he didn't get mauled himself first. Will likely exchange for vendread with a shield and axe. Less attacks but it has a higher chance of making it into melee before dying.

Stormwolf. I took heavybolters last time as I was under the impression that they would aid against infantry, which it did, but then it struggled against the land raider redeemer. Will take meltas next time no doubt about it.

Predator. I may just fully deck it with las in the future, I see now I have enough to be able to cope with infantry. I was initially put off as las only allows one shot on the sponsons, but better I -can- damage a heavy vehicle than not at all. Also helpful for forcing enemy units to take their more risky invul save.

The Rune Priest. Once a Wolf Lord, who kept dying and did little to help any games. I usually take the psychic powers within the codex. But whilst they are very powerful, they lack any kind of 'support' capability for my own units, will at the very least try a different school of powers. In addition I will try using runic armour instead of termie/russ armour.


If I did take TWC, I'd likely deck as many with Thunderhammers and Stormshields as I can. Yes they strike last, but they gain a 3+ invul, and a Wolf Priest would grant them Feel No Pain (If I recall right) on top of that, plus re-rolling ones. But unless my calculations are wrong, they'd be at 25 or so attacks on a charge, S10 and AP2. They'd most likely butcher anything they come into contact with unless I rolled absurdly few hits. At least that's my idea. The alternative is to either swap out the hammers for frost swords or the like, or just give them all double wolf claws for 30 attacks with shred.

I'd like to thank those of you taking a moment to lend advice and encouragement. I enjoy the game in of itself, but I do have difficulty seeing straight when I feel like a punching bag.

The models you own are allright, ignore the guy that said termies are bad, actually the sw termies are really good, you can mix close and renged weapons in a single unit, i like to equip them with combi weapons and two storm shields, powerfist or power mauls instead of thunder hammer to keep them realtive cheap. Sell the scouts or give it a try with camo claoks and sniper rifles, great to hold objetives.
The drop pod and flyer are all right, from the things you can borrow from the store, take the other drop pod and the rhine, alwasy if you can, with this oyu cans try a list with two venerable dreads, they have less attacks, but thier objetive is to wreck vehicles, other walkers or stuck on combat a MC, they absorve damage like sponge, thats give time to your armyto reach the enemy lines
About bloob claws, they are far for usless, they become expesive becuase the need of the landraider or stormfang, but when they reach the enemy, they hit like a bag full of bricks, a good way to use them, make a unit of 12 plues the wg leader, equip the with one power weapon, one flamer and the wg with combi flamer, put a wolf priest and send them to kill infantry
Leave the predator, use long fang if you can, if not, dont worrie for the heavy support, centre your list on infantry then, grey hunters with meltas and wg termies with combi meltas if you need to kill tanks.
For the rune priest, the rune armour is a good choice, biomancy or divination are the way if you want support powers for your army, and if you take rune priest, always take 2, never take just one, take TDA if you want to deep strike with a unit of termies.
For the TWC, keep them cheap, give all the unit ss if you desire, but only one TH, the high numbers of attacks and rending make the work
they make a really good synergi with the venerable shield/axe dreads, while your dreads fall in front on the nemy lines and absorb all the shoots, it gives time to the calvary to speed up and reach the enemy line safely



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toofast wrote:
I've played SW for a long time. The problem is you're using most of the worst units in the codex. WG, both power and terminator armor, cost way too much considering how easily they die and tthe other stuff you can get for those points. Blood claws are just terrible all the way around. Murderfang is a close combat dread in an edition where dreads are mediocre at best and close combat is an afterthought. You're mixing transport types. Either go full rhino rush or all drop pods with a flyer. Your grey hunters take a power fist which is probably the biggest waste of 25 points in the entire codex. Predators are nothing to write home about either. I would much rather have long fangs. The rune priest, GH and flyer are the only things in your list I would ever consider taking if I cared about winning. Yes, your list is fluffy and probably very similar to what a real SW army would look like. The problem is you want to win and this list is not going to do that unless you're playing an awful list or a hapless noob who doesn't know how to use his army. Here's my average SW list for comparison.
Rune priest in TDA
3 squads of 10 GH, CCWs, 2 melta, WG Sgt with combi melta
All 3 squads in drop pods
stormfang
SM allies
tigurius
2 tac squads, melta, Sgt with combi melta
3 grav cents

Tig and the cents ride in a fast attack pod. Rune priest goes with a min tac squad in a pod. This list has tabled every faction besides tau and eldar multiple times. It can deal with super heavies, flyers and hordes. It has 10 obsec units, air support and a death star with re rolls to hit, re rolls to wound and 4+ invulns. If you want to be competitive with space wolves, either use this pod/melta/cent list or a TWC list. I've tried about every other SW list possible and they all pretty much suck competitively. I have a shelf full of dusty dreads, tanks, scouts and wolf guard terminators because they simply don't win games.

So your advice to him is to buy the est units and make the est list possible, and become TFG and win games, wow what a great advice of yours

I started playing dark eldar about 4 years ago. This is commonly considered the toughest army to "master" and certainly one in which even a minor mistakes lead to a loss.

For the first year, playing 2 games a week, I never won. I played a wide variety of opponents and had my hat handed to me every single game.

Finally I did two things. The first was to keep a log. The log had my list, what I faced, mission and deployment. I also recorded what happened to specific units. For example: "Assaulted Abaddon and Terminators with Warriors; warriors slaughtered."

Based on that information I began tweaking my list, deployment styles, etc. I wrote down what worked, what failed and my best guess as to why. I also got involved in a few escalation leagues and played a LOT of games at 750, 1000 and 1250 points. After about another 6 months I won my first game. Bear in mind I wasn't actually playing to win at this point, rather I was just in research mode. The win that boosted my morale was against a MC heavy tyranid list - which always pounded me before even though I should never have had any issues.

Jumping forward, at this point the *only* army I can't consistently beat is Eldar serpent spam... But they give everyone fits and with the latest codex I'm testing a few options to see what's viable. That isn't to say I win all my games, rather my strategy, list building and general play style is now such that when I do lose I know exactly why.

The key was keeping a log, being brutally honest in what I wrote and making small tweaks as I went along.

So, keep a log and keep at it. You'll figure it out.

MarsNZ wrote:
He's understandably hesitant to buy new models and here you are trashing his list and basically advising him to buy a new army (SM) so he can run a carbon-copy netlist. Nice one.

A carbon copy netlist? I came up with that list the day before the SW codex was officially released. I'm just telling him that winning against competitive armies with his current list will be nearly impossible. I don't want to fill him with false hope that if he just learns the game better or gets 1 or 2 more kits he will suddenly start winning. He can either a. resign himself to losing most of his games, b. change his list to a more competitive build or c. sell everything and play something else. There isn't really another option here which is what he seems to be looking for. I'm not trying to be negative, I just don't want OP to spend more time and money only to have the same result.

I feel ya man, I'm basically teetering on the hope that my new codex will add flavor to my army, which is extremely bland right now. If that doesn't happen, I'm probably out of here.

MarsNZ wrote:
He's understandably hesitant to buy new models and here you are trashing his list and basically advising him to buy a new army (SM) so he can run a carbon-copy netlist. Nice one.

Like I said. A space wolf with a bolt pistol can still be a Grey Hunter. They're issued those also, so its not a modeling issue. Just make sure the opponent knows.

2 things strike me as big no-no's to your current setup:.

1. You mention you only have 2 things that can kill land raiders. If you know your going up against that you should be able to add something else to your list to help. Power claws in a unit of good close combat dudes will rip a land raider a new one. Sometimes running up and bashing a tank is what you need to do.

2. You mention losing in close combat to orks. Unless you have a unit that is good a close combat keep them away from the orks and stand back and shoot at them. Orks stink at shooting and close combat is pretty much what the army is about. So stay back and unload on them. Kill nobz first. They rip through units. Ork trukks can be glanced to death with most space marine weapons. Blow them up.

I'm sorry to read that you're feeling like leaving 40K due to game outcomes. I've been quite lucky with 7th edition, but like most, I have felt the sting of losing plenty in the past.

My observations:

I mostly play smaller games (~500-1000 or 2000 v 2000 teams) due to time constraints. Try it! It keeps the power-gaming shenanigans and its proponents subdued.

Terrain- line of sight blocking terrain- matters a lot. If it is insufficient, lobby for more. If your player partners are worth a darn they will acquiesce within reason and availability.

There is a lot of list optimization in all miniature war gaming. Some of it adds to gaming, too much detracts. GW has basically thrown the doors wide open in favor of it. You can still beat those cheesy lists.

Most importantly! After you get a couple of wins, losing no longer hurts. It stops being about you. You can allow yourself to accept that dice are random, et cetera et cetera.

Please try a few of the suggestions posted elsewhere in this thread before giving up! Warhammer 40K is too good of a fictional setting to not be gaming within.

I've found that in 7th, my defeats have been less painful than they were in 6th. I've managed to give as good as I got in most games.

Power claws in a unit of good close combat dudes will rip a land raider a new one. Sometimes running up and bashing a tank is what you need to do.

str8 weapons arebad at blowing up AV14, he would need 20+ attacks with fists to HP kill one.

Orks stink at shooting and close combat is pretty much what the army is about.

Isn't it the other way around, aside for MANZ all the other ork units are shoty.

Orks: Shooty? Yes. Accurate? No. lol.

Makumba wrote:

Power claws in a unit of good close combat dudes will rip a land raider a new one. Sometimes running up and bashing a tank is what you need to do.

str8 weapons arebad at blowing up AV14, he would need 20+ attacks with fists to HP kill one.

Orks stink at shooting and close combat is pretty much what the army is about.

Isn't it the other way around, aside for MANZ all the other ork units are shoty.

A thunderwolf calvary with power fist, it is not str 8, it has str10, thats mean 4, 5 on the charge, attacks of str10 to wreack a land raider

I think there's a bit of TFG-phobia here if offering tactical advice makes you TFG. If you're not winning, swapping around a unit or two doesn't make you TFG.

Power fists are Strength x2. Which would make it S8 as a marine is S4. So you would still require 6's to glance a Land Raider.

In response to the original post....

You need to understand that good units must be taken in large numbers. Typically having an incredibly balanced force is not a means to victory.

For example, you may want to take as many drop pods as you can, or spam out long-fangs. Having a little bit of everything will get squashed by even a moderately competitive list.

Find what is good and focus on building your list around those units. As much as I love Khorne...I will not have certain Khorne Units because they suck. You can't just purchase models and expect to win or be competitive. You need to purchase the CORRECT models.

I hope you figure it out and start winning some games! Remember, it is just a game and we play for fun....but at some point, to have fun, you need to win. Go kick some ass man!

Ranor wrote:
I've lost entire squads of Grey Hunters to Thunderstorm cannons.
I lost an entire squad of Wolf Guard Terminators w/ Rune Priest and Arjac.
My Blood Claws in a year of play have failed to kill anything.
My Murderfang gets blown to bits long before he can enter melee.
My drop pod has scattered directly in front of my rhino in a narrow passage.
I bought a stormwolf, it killed four tactical marines then got blown to pieces by terminators.

I've been playing this game for a year now, and from my memory (Which I like to think is decent) I've won a grand total of one matches, the guy was playing orks and blew up most of his own force with experimental artillary(?) of some sort. That aside, ever game I've played has been a loss. And not of the 'well that was a good game' kind, more of the 'rapidly growing sense of dread as my opponent moves one model at a time across the board after bitch slapping my Wolf Lord in a single round of combat yet the game has to go on for four more turns' kind.

I've tried, I really have. I don't have the perfect army, nor the perfect tactics. But even when the latter pulls up just fine, and points wise we're level, I get my arse handed to me in bite-sized chunks. Recently I've just started saying 'gg' as soon as that sense of dread kicks in, a feeling in my gut (An unpleasant one) that just tells me to get it over with. Especially when centurions hurl 15 re-rollable shots at any vehicle I own and KO it in a single round.

Next week I'm purchasing the SW half of the Stormclaw box from a guy at my FLGS for £20 (A good deal as they're also decently painted), if they, plus the Stormwolf, fail to make a decent difference I may just call it quits. I'm sorry if these seems ranty, but I just gotta get this off my chest, as I can enjoy the game and the IP but when I'm not having fun I have to ask 'why am I doing this?' I can play other systems where even when losing I can still enjoy myself, where I can still turn things around, but 40k seems to drag on and on and on per match. I spend an hour before each game night setting up a list to the best of what I have, but my excitement just gets squished by a Land Raider that only two weapons I have can actually be damaged by, both of which either miss or are lost very shortly.

If for some bizarre reason anyone is interested, here's last night's list off the top of my head (1550pts);

Warlord Rune Priest w/ Armour of Russ + Lv2 psyker
Wolf Guard termies w/ Chainfist+Assault cannon+Arjac character
Wolf guard squad w/ jump packs+combi-flamer/plasma/melta+twin claws
Blood Claws w/ Wolf Guard PL w/ Twin claws (Stormwolf transport)
Grey Hunters w/ WGPL (Storm Bolter) + Plasma Gun + Power Fist + Wolf Standard (Rhino Transport)
Predator w/ Autocannon+ 2x Heavy Bolters
Murderfang w/ Drop Pod
Stormwolf

That's made out of models I've spent over £200+ on, and I'm highly reluctant to spend anymore. Especially as now, after some paper trials, TWC would be a massive help, but that'd cost between £30 up to £60 for one or two trio's (A single trio will likely not be very effective). I can't help but feel that 40k asks far too much of me both money and time-wise, and I'm reluctant to give anymore unless I'm certain I can actually enjoy the game.

When I first started gaming, it was with Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine (v1) and it was my first time with any kind of table-top wargame, and I kicked everyone's ass. I mean, I think I may have only lost one game (playing Orks at that) in the 30 or so times my friends and I played. We typically played 2 on 2, but had some one on ones too. I guess with that level, I could play out the grand strategy really well.

When 40k 2nd edition came out, I was stoked. I loved that set, and immediately introduced it to my same friends, and they welcomed it to. But then a funny thing happened... I was terrible at it. And the friends I had who could never beat me in large AT/SM1 games, were killing me in 40k. I guess I was better at strategy than I was at tactics, and with some of my friends, vice-versa. My favorite armies were the Ultramarines and the Eldar, usually two dependable armies too, but I would make a mistake or two, and that could be pretty unforgiving in 40k back then. Eventually I got the grasp of things and probably had a 50% win ratio.

I took a break from 40k until after 3rd edition was out for awhile, and adopted the Dark Eldar. I will never forget the first time I played a serious game against a guy in a brick and mortar. He was playing Tau. He kicked my ass so quickly we just ended the game in like 2-3 rounds. It went so fast we played again, and same result. Then I realized I simply wasnt getting close to him fast enough and when we played the 3rd game, I just went all out charging across the board as fast as I could. He knew what was up, backed himself into a corner, and I essentially slaughtered him. Once he realized I now knew how to beat the Tau, he didnt want to play anymore.

But I learned something about the Dark Eldar at the time too... You really had to play a certain style to win with them. Splinter rifles being Rapid Fire, Splinter Cannons being Assault 4 I think, I could unleash a lot of gunfire from 12" away, but I had to obviously cover a lot of ground to do it. I just ended up hating it. I really prefer to play any army in the manner I choose, but unfortunately with 40k armies, they are built to be played with a certain style. I know that gives them flavor, but if you don't play to those specific advantages, you will have a hard time.

I don't know a lot about the Space Wolves game-wise, but the same probably applies. You might want to consider some more support-like weapons. Even though I see the Space Wolves as viking-like warriors who spend their time in close combat, but in reality, you need weapons to keep your enemy's heads down while your army advances, or pick off units from a distance. That might help.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Power fists are Strength x2. Which would make it S8 as a marine is S4. So you would still require 6's to glance a Land Raider

The Wolf adds strength to the base profile IIRC making it 5 x 2 and ether way St9 still has a better chance than just glancing it out.

Anyway il reiterate the need to just play lower point games till you start winning more. Then add more points once get the hang of it instead of jumping full tilt into high points games without all the models or experience.

But lower point games are even more unbalanced. What is kind of a OP at 1500pts, becomes unkillable OP at 750.

1500 of necrons is a tough list to play against. Bad match up for some armies. But at 750 or less facing scyths and chariot lords is very one sided. Same with playing against seer stars.

Its exactly the same thing at higher points too

Suddenly you have to deal with wombo combos like grey cent stars. multi knights, MASS Spam (usually serpents)

Necrons are a issue in it self. while if you see a seer star you probably just pack up and walk away since the daemon player is looking for a high lv game or just curb stomping people.

 Desubot wrote:
Its exactly the same thing at higher points too

Suddenly you have to deal with wombo combos like grey cent stars. multi knights, MASS Spam (usually serpents)

Necrons are a issue in it self. while if you see a seer star you probably just pack up and walk away since the daemon player is looking for a high lv game or just curb stomping people.

Hmm...
Eldar rule the galaxy.
Eldar give birth to Slaanesh.
Slaanesh eats eldar.
Slaanesh poops out daemons.
Eldar = Daemons
Daemons can now SeerStar

Herpin my derp for some reason i read screamer star

 Desubot wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Power fists are Strength x2. Which would make it S8 as a marine is S4. So you would still require 6's to glance a Land Raider

The Wolf adds strength to the base profile IIRC making it 5 x 2 and ether way St9 still has a better chance than just glancing it out.

Anyway il reiterate the need to just play lower point games till you start winning more. Then add more points once get the hang of it instead of jumping full tilt into high points games without all the models or experience.

Thought mounts added toughness?

Not all mounts are the same

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Power fists are Strength x2. Which would make it S8 as a marine is S4. So you would still require 6's to glance a Land Raider

The Wolf adds strength to the base profile IIRC making it 5 x 2 and ether way St9 still has a better chance than just glancing it out.

Anyway il reiterate the need to just play lower point games till you start winning more. Then add more points once get the hang of it instead of jumping full tilt into high points games without all the models or experience.

Thought mounts added toughness?

Thunderwolf mounts give the rider +1 S, T, W and A and Rending on all their attacks AFAIK.

Drop pod melta is still the best way to destroy heavy armor. Drop down, deploy with 2 meltas and a combi melta in half range, blow up tank. With 5 or 6 squads like that you should have most of their armor down by turn 2. Then clean up in close combat and push them off objectives. Grav cents are also a great way to take down vehicles. 15 shots, should be re rolling hits with prescience from a librarian or rune priest, re rolling wounds, any 6 immobilizes and takes a HP off.

Toofast wrote:
Drop pod melta is still the best way to destroy heavy armor. Drop down, deploy with 2 meltas and a combi melta in half range, blow up tank. With 5 or 6 squads like that you should have most of their armor down by turn 2. Then clean up in close combat and push them off objectives. Grav cents are also a great way to take down vehicles. 15 shots, should be re rolling hits with prescience from a librarian or rune priest, re rolling wounds, any 6 immobilizes and takes a HP off.

I field SW's, we don't get Centurions.

Toofast wrote:
Drop pod melta is still the best way to destroy heavy armor. Drop down, deploy with 2 meltas and a combi melta in half range, blow up tank. With 5 or 6 squads like that you should have most of their armor down by turn 2. Then clean up in close combat and push them off objectives. Grav cents are also a great way to take down vehicles. 15 shots, should be re rolling hits with prescience from a librarian or rune priest, re rolling wounds, any 6 immobilizes and takes a HP off.

Keep in mind rerolling wounds does not have any effect on vehicles, as vehicles have no wounds.

You don't really need new models, but do pick up some Cav when you get the chance. You just need some gear changes.

For example take armour of russ off the rune priest. I know a 4++ is appealing, but he's better served with the Helm of Durfast.

I'd play the Blood Claws as Grey Hunters until you can get a Wolf Priest with the Wulfen Stone. Without him they are so average which is disappointing.

Maybe use the jump pack Wolf Guard as Blood Claws, they're expensive and you already have a huge points commitment with your Arjac termies.

That Predator needs some lascannons all around. Heavy bolters are only ever good in the books.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Toofast wrote:
Drop pod melta is still the best way to destroy heavy armor. Drop down, deploy with 2 meltas and a combi melta in half range, blow up tank. With 5 or 6 squads like that you should have most of their armor down by turn 2. Then clean up in close combat and push them off objectives. Grav cents are also a great way to take down vehicles. 15 shots, should be re rolling hits with prescience from a librarian or rune priest, re rolling wounds, any 6 immobilizes and takes a HP off.

Keep in mind rerolling wounds does not have any effect on vehicles, as vehicles have no wounds.

Grav Amps allow you to re roll when attempting to score a 6 against vehicles as per the Graviton rule.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
On the verge of quitting?

Bye then.

I can't imagine why people leave this game.

Ranor wrote:

Toofast wrote:
Drop pod melta is still the best way to destroy heavy armor. Drop down, deploy with 2 meltas and a combi melta in half range, blow up tank. With 5 or 6 squads like that you should have most of their armor down by turn 2. Then clean up in close combat and push them off objectives. Grav cents are also a great way to take down vehicles. 15 shots, should be re rolling hits with prescience from a librarian or rune priest, re rolling wounds, any 6 immobilizes and takes a HP off.

I field SW's, we don't get Centurions.

Ever heard of an allies matrix? It's only been a thing for what, over 2 years now? I can count the number of competitive pure SW builds on 1 hand (hint: it's 0). SW are weak on their own. Trading combat squads and useful chapter tactics for acute senses is a joke. I got throttled against every good build with my pure SW lists. I added tig and grav cents and voila, I started beating top tier cron and eldar lists.

 Moktor wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
On the verge of quitting?

Bye then.

I can't imagine why people leave this game.

In my case I got tired with the way GW kept sticking it to the player base with their steady price increases to unaffordable levels ($160 for a PLASTIC model?) and poorly written rule sets. I played my last game of 40k shortly after 6th came out and haven't looked back. I now play X-Wing as my game of choice and can get 2-3 games done in the time of 1 game of 40k, having more fun and less rules arguments along the way.

I play Orks and I know that they're not a top tier army. They are a very easy army to play. You either shoot something that you don't want to get into combat with, or you hit stuff that you don't want to get shot by. As Orks aren't competitive, I don't expect to win, but there are MANY ways to run them, and the Dakka forums are fantastic for sorting out good lists.

Space Wolves are probably not THAT competitive an army, but they're better than orks. You mentioned that you're due to pick up the new box of Space wolves, personally I would be hesitant about that.

To me, the biggest downside of 40k IS the price, but at the end of the day you're getting some of the highest quality models out there. There are other games which you can look into, if you're wanting to do down that route, however the other thing you might want to think about is which aspect of 40k you're enjoying. Do you enjoy:
1. Painting
2. Collecting
3. Battling
3.a. Shooting
3.b. Close Combat

Pre-7th ed Space Wolves were a strong shooting army which could pack a punch IF they were attacked. Post 7th ed, they're been encouraged to go Close Combat, however they still have good shooting. From what I've experienced, they are an army which you need to be careful how you construct your list:
-- Drop pods are effective if you only really have drop pods as your transports. As you said, dropping it has blocked out other transport's paths. I would either try to take lots of drop pods or none at all.
-- Fliers are good, but I haven't tried out the new ships yet. People seem to really like the Fast Attack transport version (who's name I can't remember at present). However you need to make sure you protect it. As for any army, most competitive lists will have an answer for fliers. What are Space Wolves?
-- TWC are fantastic. They're powerful, fluffy, look awesome and are awesome. As with Orks, there are some units in the codex which are an auto-include. This is one such unit. A lord on the Thunderwolf is fantastically scary and beautiful. Long fangs are also brilliant.

Rathar than quitting. Before buying more. Let us see what we can construct for you.

The other question would be this: what type of armies do you tend to play against? And have you tried playing a different army? Be positive when you play. That's the first rule to enjoying the game. I'm guilty of going into things thinking I won't win. If you think "I can do this" then you'll get very far in every aspect of life.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
On the verge of quitting?

Bye then.

What a wonderful and helpful reply, especially considering that the game is already shedding players left and right...

The good news is, SM aren't broken -- they have the tools available such that, perhaps with some adjustments to your list and tactics, you have a chance to win a reasonable share of games against pretty much any army.

You should diarize how you lose your games, noting what type of combinations cause you grief, and then specifically determine what the counter to those combinations are. Sadly, if you play wargames against competitive opponents (people who have more experience than you who have invested in armies built to win), this is pretty much the norm.

Remember, if it looks like a terrible game, there's nothing wrong with simply conceding. If you KNOW you're going to lose, you don't need to play another 3 hours to watch all your units slowly get chopped away.

Also, if someone is playing a unit that you KNOW that you have no answer to, try politely telling them so. If someone says, "Hey, buddy, I know that I'm going to lose because I don't have a chance against [fill in killer combo]", you have a decent chance against them making an adjustment on their side to even things up.

Finally, you can always try to pair up with someone with an army or experience more comparable to yours, or play on a 2v2 table with someone you can learn from.

I've been playing since the 80s and still lose games. When i go out to tournies and such, I often lose more than I win and only keep up because i only field fully painted and fulfill all the extra point slots including good sportsmanship. The more hardcore WAAC, competitive(yes, those last two are two separate items) players in my areas usually dont do so.

Sounds like it is the people you are playing and the atmosphere your playing in. You should notbe in an atmosphere where dread is fostered but instead fun. Find ways to joke and kid around. have conversations with them (even non gaming ones. It is a hobby that should be enjoyed win or lose.

Maybe take notes during games and see what works and what doesnt. Then either do it again or dont in future games. Watch others play and see what they do and ask them why again, maybe take notes.Play in demo games. Find a buddy to play mini practice games with you to experiment and try stuff out.

At te end of the day,it MIGHT be that wargamingisnt for you. Ya never know. Good luck.

MarsNZ wrote:
He's understandably hesitant to buy new models and here you are trashing his list and basically advising him to buy a new army (SM) so he can run a carbon-copy netlist. Nice one.

Because his list is poor, and he seems to be quite competitive (and probably playing other competitive players).

He's just telling it like it is.

As it happens, I managed to buy a pack of TWC. I'm thinking of dropping the Rune Priest, and perhaps in exchange getting a Wolf Lord on the mount. And perhaps a Wolf Priest to lead the Blood Claws as opposed to a Pack Leader (Healing Balm gives FNP and they can re-roll 1's on hits and wounds iirc), which ought to give them a heft boost in their charge. Perhaps throw a Wolf Amulet to the Wolf Priest to give the Blood Claws Furious Charge and the Priest Rage?

 Zathras wrote:

 Moktor wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
On the verge of quitting?

Bye then.

I can't imagine why people leave this game.

In my case I got tired with the way GW kept sticking it to the player base with their steady price increases to unaffordable levels ($160 for a PLASTIC model?) and poorly written rule sets. I played my last game of 40k shortly after 6th came out and haven't looked back. I now play X-Wing as my game of choice and can get 2-3 games done in the time of 1 game of 40k, having more fun and less rules arguments along the way.

And yet you're still here, engrossed in 40k discussion

 Pyeatt wrote:

And yet you're still here, engrossed in 40k discussion

People with existing collections of miniatures who don't like where things have gone can still enjoy:

Painting the unpainted models they've already purchased
Reading 40k related books, both old and new
Discussing a game they wished they like but don't
Trying other rules to play in the 40k universe.
Finding other appropriate miniatures that fit the dark sci-fantasy aesthetic
Expressing their desire for change

There's just so many things you can talk about 40k wise without buying into their current 7th ed package of rules and models.

Ranor wrote:
As it happens, I managed to buy a pack of TWC. I'm thinking of dropping the Rune Priest, and perhaps in exchange getting a Wolf Lord on the mount. And perhaps a Wolf Priest to lead the Blood Claws as opposed to a Pack Leader (Healing Balm gives FNP and they can re-roll 1's on hits and wounds iirc), which ought to give them a heft boost in their charge. Perhaps throw a Wolf Amulet to the Wolf Priest to give the Blood Claws Furious Charge and the Priest Rage?

The TWC box is great. You need to think a little bit about how you play them though. Even though they have T:5, 3+/3++ (with SS), and 2 wounds they are major bullet magnets and will draw crazy amounts of fire. So if you want to make sure that they actually reach combat you may want to include even more protection in the unit. These are some ways of doing that,
- Add a Wolf lord/WGBL with runic armor + 2 Fenrisian wolves to tank AP>2 shots, and for some ablative wounds.
- Add a Rune priest on bike with runic armor and Biomancy (and pray to the dice gods for Endurance, Life Leech or Iron arm). He can buff the unit and tank some shots if needed (but with only 2 wounds he won't be that good in that role).
- Add an Iron priest on wolf+ 2-4 Cyber wolves. Runic armor and ablative wounds make him a great tank. He's also a major offensive threat.
- Wolf priest on bike in runic armor. Another great way to buff the unit both defensively and offensively.

Or use all of the above for a TWCstar...

A wolf priest leading Blood Claws is cool and thematic. You need to think about how to get them into combat though. Unless you put them in a LR or Stormwolf they will likely have to endure at least one round of shooting. It could be worth trying a footslogging max size BC unit + a Wolf priest, where you also include a terminator pack leader with SS who can protect the unit.