85944
Post by: SirSertile
If the original MK7 (and previous mks of power armor) had an issue with bolter shells bouncing around up into the helmet, then how come it's not a huge issue with Terminator armor? Remember that giant round-ish area behind the helmet? It was actually mentioned that the mk8 faceplate is designed to stop shells from becoming trapped. Any explanation? You could literally just stick a hand grenade in there!
79467
Post by: DanielBeaver
Terminator armor is made of handwavium.
87961
Post by: lycio
38,000 years and they haven't figured out how to make a gun that ejects the shells away from the firer?
In all seriousness though, odds are they designed the armor, then figured they should explain the change made, so they threw that in so it'd make sense.
25484
Post by: Jollydevil
lycio wrote:38,000 years and they haven't figured out how to make a gun that ejects the shells away from the firer?
I always find myself assuming that somewhere down the line there must have been a point in human history where someone just said "eh, good enough". And then all the schools, universities and the like were shut down never to be used again.
11401
Post by: farmersboy
It may be called a shell trap, but it's got nothing to do with empty bolter shells. it's referring to the possibility of incoming fire bouncing off the top of the chest and going up into the underside of the helmet. This problem often cropped up in tank design - for a classic example look at the two version of gun mantlet used on the German Panther tank. The early version was curved top and bottom and it was discovered that an incoming round could strike the bottom of the mantlet and be directed down through the relatively thin roof into the driver's compartment. So it was redesigned with a flat 'chin' on the bottom.
38817
Post by: dracpanzer
Perhaps better known as a "Shot Trap"?
3802
Post by: chromedog
Partially this.
Adamantium is actually an ALLOY of handwavium and unobtanium.
55577
Post by: ImAGeek
 chromedog wrote:
Partially this.
Adamantium is actually an ALLOY of handwavium and unobtanium.
Unobtanium is the worst thing about Avatar. I mean, it's crap in general (pretty, sure, but crap) but that was the point where they completely lost me...
But yeah. Terminators have plot armour at least as thick as their actual armour. They're essentially terminator-centurions with their plot armour...
79467
Post by: DanielBeaver
 ImAGeek wrote: chromedog wrote:
Partially this.
Adamantium is actually an ALLOY of handwavium and unobtanium.
Unobtanium is the worst thing about Avatar. I mean, it's crap in general (pretty, sure, but crap) but that was the point where they completely lost me...
Yeah, the movie The Core did that too. Terms like Unobtanium are meant to facilitate these sort of speculative discussions (like we're having right now). When they leak into final scripts... well, that's just bad writing.
63973
Post by: Furyou Miko
The Core's use of Unobtainium was a tongue-in-cheek nod to phlebotinium, which had previously been in widespread use in a serious fashion. It was also a nickname for a compound with a name comprised of 'seventeen syllables', rather than the 'naturally-occurring element' from Avatar.
39550
Post by: Psienesis
ImAGeek wrote: chromedog wrote:
Partially this.
Adamantium is actually an ALLOY of handwavium and unobtanium.
Unobtanium is the worst thing about Avatar. I mean, it's crap in general (pretty, sure, but crap) but that was the point where they completely lost me...
But yeah. Terminators have plot armour at least as thick as their actual armour. They're essentially terminator-centurions with their plot armour...
You know the guy who refers to the mineral as "unobtainium" in Avatar was using the term as slang, right? In the same way we use the term on these boards. The mineral was not actually called "unobtainium" in-universe, the guy speaking was expressing his frustration at the difficulties they had been having in acquiring the material.
55577
Post by: ImAGeek
That doesn't make the film any better though 
3802
Post by: chromedog
 ImAGeek wrote: chromedog wrote:
Partially this.
Adamantium is actually an ALLOY of handwavium and unobtanium.
Unobtanium is the worst thing about Avatar. I mean, it's crap in general (pretty, sure, but crap) but that was the point where they completely lost me...
Unobtanium is an engineers in-joke. It's also a trademark of Oakley for the rubber nosepieces on their sunglasses that gain more traction, the sweatier your nose gets.
In that movie, the really-big-deal-thing about it is that it's a "room temperature superconductor" (IE, shirtloads better than the supercooled ones we've managed to make) in its natural form - it is what makes their starship drives work and their long range comms. This is why the magical sparkly rock floats in a magnetic field.
Even discounting that, Avatar is much more believable than 40k. At least it's internally consistent.
55577
Post by: ImAGeek
It's still crap. It looks pretty but apart from that I didn't like it. But I didn't realise that Unobtainium was a term used like that, I thought that was literally what they called it haha.
51464
Post by: Veteran Sergeant
 Psienesis wrote: ImAGeek wrote: chromedog wrote:
Partially this.
Adamantium is actually an ALLOY of handwavium and unobtanium.
Unobtanium is the worst thing about Avatar. I mean, it's crap in general (pretty, sure, but crap) but that was the point where they completely lost me...
But yeah. Terminators have plot armour at least as thick as their actual armour. They're essentially terminator-centurions with their plot armour...
You know the guy who refers to the mineral as "unobtainium" in Avatar was using the term as slang, right? In the same way we use the term on these boards. The mineral was not actually called "unobtainium" in-universe, the guy speaking was expressing his frustration at the difficulties they had been having in acquiring the material.
What, did the Ultimate Avatar Companion Guide™ try to explain it as that? Because it certainly wasn't stated in the movie, where the line is delivered straight-faced. It's completely jarring, and drags the viewer out of the movie by screaming "THIS IS NOT REAL." So if it was indeed a joke, it was among the worst executed jokes in the history of filmmaking, lol.
93449
Post by: leerm02
Yeah, I'm gonna go right out and agree: the movie totally made it seem like "unobtanium" was the actual name. I mean: the joke thing makes sense, and maybe the writer even intended it to be that way, but the delivery and set up made it seem like that was just the name for their element.
Which is silly, but as everyone else pointed out: PRETTY COLOURS!
92395
Post by: Computron
I prefer to think that the extra neck protection of the mk8 is to protect against close combat attacks by nids and the like.
Now that it's mentioned (and thanks Sir Sertile for the laugh) the gap between helmet and cowl on a termie suit is probably a lot less 'in real life' than the models and artwork show. So internal fluff updated.
93683
Post by: Phyrekzhogos
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:What, did the Ultimate Avatar Companion Guide™ try to explain it as that? Because it certainly wasn't stated in the movie, where the line is delivered straight-faced. It's completely jarring, and drags the viewer out of the movie by screaming "THIS IS NOT REAL." So if it was indeed a joke, it was among the worst executed jokes in the history of filmmaking, lol.
I tend to think the super obvious political/social agenda in that movie had brought me to the "THIS IS NOT REAL" point long before they ever introduced the ridiculously named rock.
I walked away rooting for the Humans. I mean, how "super freakin badass" was that Commander guy? He'd have made a great character in the Grimdark universe.
55577
Post by: ImAGeek
Veteran Sergeant wrote:What, did the Ultimate Avatar Companion Guide™ try to explain it as that? Because it certainly wasn't stated in the movie, where the line is delivered straight-faced. It's completely jarring, and drags the viewer out of the movie by screaming "THIS IS NOT REAL." So if it was indeed a joke, it was among the worst executed jokes in the history of filmmaking, lol.
leerm02 wrote:Yeah, I'm gonna go right out and agree: the movie totally made it seem like "unobtanium" was the actual name. I mean: the joke thing makes sense, and maybe the writer even intended it to be that way, but the delivery and set up made it seem like that was just the name for their element.
Which is silly, but as everyone else pointed out: PRETTY COLOURS!
Okay I'm glad it wasn't just me then!
63973
Post by: Furyou Miko
I knew about Unobtanium before hand (Core is a wonderful cheesy disaster movie), and I still took that line as straight.
The only reasoning I can think of is that the guy giving the introduction was an accountant and didn't know the engineers were joking about it being called Unobtanium.
70069
Post by: Rippy
I love how this was answered in post three, but as one person mentioned Unobtanium, the whole thread is now about Avatar haha
4817
Post by: Spetulhu
Computron wrote:I prefer to think that the extra neck protection of the mk8 is to protect against close combat attacks by nids and the like. Now that it's mentioned the gap between helmet and cowl on a termie suit is probably a lot less 'in real life' than the models and artwork show.
There's one worse thing than any armor angle on the suits. All those crazy guys who go to war without a helmet on their armored, fully enclosed enviromental and ABC capable suit!
A bare head should be very good at catching shells, shrapnel and anything else that otherwise wouldn't have penetrated the armor. And it's also a hit location that can incapacitate even a marine instantly.
51464
Post by: Veteran Sergeant
The Unobtanium thing was right at the beginning. I was still giving the movie a chance at that point.
We didn't find out it was a heavy-handed remix of Dances With Wolves, Ferngully, and a nature documentary with a generous helping of white guilt for at least another 30-45 minutes at that point, lol.
Everything else aside, I always think "Ya know, if they'd fixed his legs first and then contractually obligated him to run their Avatar as repayment, they'd never have had any problems." He'd have been able to walk around, go to the gym, hit on women that weren't ten foot tall Smurfcats, and would have never asked any questions.
The downfall for their whole plan hinged around allowing a Marine to get bored. As a former leader of Marines, I can tell you that's about the worst thing you can do. 
51866
Post by: Bobthehero
A healthy dose of SM's dropping in in well, drop-pods would've done this movie a great deal of good.
93069
Post by: Whiskey144
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Unobtanium thing was right at the beginning. I was still giving the movie a chance at that point.
We didn't find out it was a heavy-handed remix of Dances With Wolves, Ferngully, and a nature documentary with a generous helping of white guilt for at least another 30-45 minutes at that point, lol.
Objectively speaking, Ferngully had the redemptive quality of Batty, who was hilarious.
83194
Post by: EmpNortonII
 Jollydevil wrote:lycio wrote:38,000 years and they haven't figured out how to make a gun that ejects the shells away from the firer?
I always find myself assuming that somewhere down the line there must have been a point in human history where someone just said "eh, good enough". And then all the schools, universities and the like were shut down never to be used again.
That's EXACTLY what happened. The Mechanicum shoots people who try and make their own technological advances. Automatically Appended Next Post: Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Unobtanium thing was right at the beginning. I was still giving the movie a chance at that point.
We didn't find out it was a heavy-handed remix of Dances With Wolves, Ferngully, and a nature documentary with a generous helping of white guilt for at least another 30-45 minutes at that point, lol.
Some people figured that out before the movie was released. Hell, Trey Parker and Matt Stone even made a South Park episode called "Dances with Smurfs" a month before Avatar hit the theaters.
78353
Post by: Wyzilla
 Bobthehero wrote:A healthy dose of SM's dropping in in well, drop-pods would've done this movie a great deal of good.
Not enough. Pandora needs to have the Carcharodons dropped on it, specifically the entire Chapter. Suffer not the xenos.
93069
Post by: Whiskey144
 EmpNortonII wrote: Jollydevil wrote:lycio wrote:38,000 years and they haven't figured out how to make a gun that ejects the shells away from the firer?
I always find myself assuming that somewhere down the line there must have been a point in human history where someone just said "eh, good enough". And then all the schools, universities and the like were shut down never to be used again.
That's EXACTLY what happened. The Mechanicum shoots people who try and make their own technological advances.
So all those Space Marines who change things up with their Predator Annihilators and Land Raider variants that never existed before got killed for that?
Because if so, why is that the Space Wolves still exist? I mean, IIRC their the first guys to innovate with Predator Annihilators, and the Pred Annihilator was never part of the STC for the Predator, so obviously that's a technological advance that wasn't made by the AdMech.
92308
Post by: Finlandiaperkele
Can someone please illustrate me where the Terminator Armour has an actual shell trap? I can't see any.
Only fear I'd have would be that the shell lodges between the armour and the helmet, leaving me unable to turn my head.
Hell, I even looked my Terminator models and didn't see any. Please advice?
83194
Post by: EmpNortonII
Whiskey144 wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Jollydevil wrote:lycio wrote:38,000 years and they haven't figured out how to make a gun that ejects the shells away from the firer?
I always find myself assuming that somewhere down the line there must have been a point in human history where someone just said "eh, good enough". And then all the schools, universities and the like were shut down never to be used again.
That's EXACTLY what happened. The Mechanicum shoots people who try and make their own technological advances.
So all those Space Marines who change things up with their Predator Annihilators and Land Raider variants that never existed before got killed for that?
Because if so, why is that the Space Wolves still exist? I mean, IIRC their the first guys to innovate with Predator Annihilators, and the Pred Annihilator was never part of the STC for the Predator, so obviously that's a technological advance that wasn't made by the AdMech.
"The Annihilator variant of the Predator was originally conceived as a field-modification by the Space Wolves Chapter, but after an intense investigation that lasted for over 200 standard years, it was found by the Adeptus Mechanicus that the replacement of the Autocannon with Twin-linked Lascannons had been a feature found within the vehicle's original Standard Template Construct ( STC) designs and thus it became on officially recognised part of the Imperium's arsenal."
I'll let you think on what it means that it took the Mechanicum 200 years to figure out if the field modification was acceptable.
Either way, it reinforces what I've said.
93069
Post by: Whiskey144
....It does? Because all I'm seeing is that Imperial interstellar communications are slow and unreliable, and the highly distributed, non-monolithic nature of the Imperium means that in order to establish a full agreement requires a lot of work to actually get every single individual necessary involved.
Even if it's all handled on Mars proper, there's still the travel times involved.
Oh, and it nicely disproves your point that the AdMech execute anybody that does innovate.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Bobthehero wrote:A healthy dose of SM's dropping in in well, drop-pods would've done this movie a great deal of good.
Who are you and what did you do the real Bobthehero?
51866
Post by: Bobthehero
Hey, guardsmen can't survive the drop pod fall, you won't see me argue that. Anyone read the fan fic where the Imperium shows up on Pandora, while we're on it?
76437
Post by: Otto Weston
Regarding Avatar -
I found the most illogical part to be - using an orbital shuttle as a low altitude bomber. Sure, they couldn't use it as an orbital bomber because the bombs would burn up and probably detonate in the atmosphere BUT they could have used it as a high altitude bomber, high enough so the natives and animals couldn't breathe. Problem solved.
Regarding Shot traps -
The Terminator suit is badly designed and would catch/ deflect incoming fire into the weakspot between the helmet and the rest of the armour. It probably wouldn't hurt the marine unless the shots were high explosive or shattered into shrapnel but it would most likely lead to damage of internal components.
Imo, Termie armour should have no helmet and instead be a solid carapace at the front, to remove the massive weakspot.
You could easily place cameras on the suit in armoured recesses so the marine inside could see, hell you could probably set up a panoramic view too.
92308
Post by: Finlandiaperkele
 Otto Weston wrote:Regarding Avatar -
The Terminator suit is badly designed and would catch/ deflect incoming fire into the weakspot between the helmet and the rest of the armour. It probably wouldn't hurt the marine unless the shots were high explosive or shattered into shrapnel but it would most likely lead to damage of internal components.
Imo, Termie armour should have no helmet and instead be a solid carapace at the front, to remove the massive weakspot.
You could easily place cameras on the suit in armoured recesses so the marine inside could see, hell you could probably set up a panoramic view too.
PLEASE illustrate where you can see a shell-trap in Terminator armour.
I can't see any. The helmet-housing leaves nearly no room for anything else but the helmet.
76461
Post by: lcmiracle
 Finlandiaperkele wrote: Otto Weston wrote:Regarding Avatar - The Terminator suit is badly designed and would catch/ deflect incoming fire into the weakspot between the helmet and the rest of the armour. It probably wouldn't hurt the marine unless the shots were high explosive or shattered into shrapnel but it would most likely lead to damage of internal components. Imo, Termie armour should have no helmet and instead be a solid carapace at the front, to remove the massive weakspot. You could easily place cameras on the suit in armoured recesses so the marine inside could see, hell you could probably set up a panoramic view too.
PLEASE illustrate where you can see a shell-trap in Terminator armour. I can't see any. The helmet-housing leaves nearly no room for anything else but the helmet.
Well I guess Otto Weston meant the semi-open rectangular, eh, thingie, behind the helmet. An opening like that can potentially allow small ballistic shots inside the unenclosed compartment and, if the compartment is directly connected to the internal components, can cause devastating damage to the suit. Personally I like to think of it as the side of a cooling fan that sucks in air to maintain the armor's internal temperature. But if that is the case, it is a really large design flaw. Considering how large and how exposed the entrance is, it could be the cause of a miniscule Death Star. And if the opening is not connected to the interior of the armor, why isn't it sealed up? I can't think of for what purpose the original designer (by whom I mean the artist who designed the current TDA) was thinking about when he/she decided to place an open box behind the helmet.
51464
Post by: Veteran Sergeant
Finlandiaperkele wrote: Otto Weston wrote:Regarding Avatar -
The Terminator suit is badly designed and would catch/ deflect incoming fire into the weakspot between the helmet and the rest of the armour. It probably wouldn't hurt the marine unless the shots were high explosive or shattered into shrapnel but it would most likely lead to damage of internal components.
Imo, Termie armour should have no helmet and instead be a solid carapace at the front, to remove the massive weakspot.
You could easily place cameras on the suit in armoured recesses so the marine inside could see, hell you could probably set up a panoramic view too.
PLEASE illustrate where you can see a shell-trap in Terminator armour.
I can't see any. The helmet-housing leaves nearly no room for anything else but the helmet.
Shells are pretty small. Especially in a universe with lasers and shuriken ammunition. Even bolter shells only need less than an inch of space.
87312
Post by: thegreatchimp
Finlandiaperkele wrote:Can someone please illustrate me where the Terminator Armour has an actual shell trap? I can't see any.
The rounded gaps between the helmet housing and the outer layer of armour. And arguably a more serious trap is the gap between the helm and the housing, if the termie had his head hunched low, like the one in the pic. Shot goes through gap, ricochets of unyileding adamantioun, straight between unlucky termies shoulder blades...
1
92308
Post by: Finlandiaperkele
 thegreatchimp wrote: Finlandiaperkele wrote:Can someone please illustrate me where the Terminator Armour has an actual shell trap? I can't see any.
The rounded gaps between the helmet housing and the outer layer of armour. And arguably a more serious trap is the gap between the helm and the housing, if the termie had his head hunched low, like the one in the pic. Shot goes through gap, ricochets of unyileding adamantioun, straight between unlucky termies shoulder blades...
That's not really a shot trap... The round has no space to ricoche around, and even if it did, it would just hit the back of the helmet (all the while losing nearly all of it's momentum=no penetration). Also the space between the helmet mount and outer shell (the place where all the optics/stufflikethat are) isn't a shot trap. There is no weak point there. Shot Trap
87312
Post by: thegreatchimp
Finlandiaperkele wrote: thegreatchimp wrote: Finlandiaperkele wrote:Can someone please illustrate me where the Terminator Armour has an actual shell trap? I can't see any.
The rounded gaps between the helmet housing and the outer layer of armour. And arguably a more serious trap is the gap between the helm and the housing, if the termie had his head hunched low, like the one in the pic. Shot goes through gap, ricochets of unyileding adamantioun, straight between unlucky termies shoulder blades...
That's not really a shot trap...
The round has no space to ricoche around, and even if it did, it would just hit the back of the helmet (all the while losing nearly all of it's momentum=no penetration).
Also the space between the helmet mount and outer shell (the place where all the optics/stufflikethat are) isn't a shot trap. There is no weak point there.
Shot Trap
"Shot traps are locations on the exterior of an armored vehicle where impacting shells are deflected to a weaker or more vulnerable point in the armor"
Fact is there's 2 holes for bullets to enter clearly visible in the pic, between the outer armour and the neckpiece, and depending on the head position another at the neck, quite visible in the pic also. Maybe its not strictly a shot trap so much as an Achilles heel, but I won't split hairs -my point is it's bad news if a bullet goes in there.
Edit *bad news for the wearer*
85421
Post by: Khonsu
Bobthehero wrote:Hey, guardsmen can't survive the drop pod fall, you won't see me argue that. Anyone read the fan fic where the Imperium shows up on Pandora, while we're on it?
Please provide us with a link oh Mighty Bob.
51866
Post by: Bobthehero
4238
Post by: BrotherGecko
The worst shot trap is actually the flex armor on the back of joints like the leg. Any round entering would strike the armor and either deflect up or down causing massive damage to the Astartes. Especially a round the back of the knee of a terminator as it would penetrate and deflect off the dense armor of the front of the knee. If it deflected up the leg a wounding shot could likely kill an Astartes as it shreds their insides.
Allowing for the hilarious event of seeing a terminator drop like a ton of bricks because of a lucky heavy stubber round to the back of the knee.
85944
Post by: SirSertile
Finlandiaperkele wrote:Can someone please illustrate me where the Terminator Armour has an actual shell trap? I can't see any.
Only fear I'd have would be that the shell lodges between the armour and the helmet, leaving me unable to turn my head.
Hell, I even looked my Terminator models and didn't see any. Please advice?
http://cdn4.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/SpaceHulkDeathwingCrop.jpg?eaa32f
A round could hit in that little crevice between the helmet and the thing covering the helmet
Why is that cover even there?!?! Automatically Appended Next Post: \  BrotherGecko wrote:The worst shot trap is actually the flex armor on the back of joints like the leg. Any round entering would strike the armor and either deflect up or down causing massive damage to the Astartes. Especially a round the back of the knee of a terminator as it would penetrate and deflect off the dense armor of the front of the knee. If it deflected up the leg a wounding shot could likely kill an Astartes as it shreds their insides.
Allowing for the hilarious event of seeing a terminator drop like a ton of bricks because of a lucky heavy stubber round to the back of the knee.
Speaking of hilarious terminator fails, if anyone remembers, in Hyperion's lore (some GK guy) these cultists mess with the warp, and during teleport most of Hyperion's battle brothers in terminator armor end up in rocks, or over massive pits. I do agree that that massive hole behind the knee could become an issue. But i'm guessing the flex armor is made of an "adamantium mesh that is 4000x stronger than normal adamantium but as light as a lasgun" Most 40k units have large issues.
4238
Post by: BrotherGecko
Haha the Grey Knight Terminator's psychic hood looks like it was designed to catch rounds and deflect them into the neck.
Some of the armor designs I've seen for Astartes has what looks like plates that slide up and down closing around the flex armor to reduce vulnerability. I believe its MK8 armor.
78353
Post by: Wyzilla
BrotherGecko wrote:The worst shot trap is actually the flex armor on the back of joints like the leg. Any round entering would strike the armor and either deflect up or down causing massive damage to the Astartes. Especially a round the back of the knee of a terminator as it would penetrate and deflect off the dense armor of the front of the knee. If it deflected up the leg a wounding shot could likely kill an Astartes as it shreds their insides.
Allowing for the hilarious event of seeing a terminator drop like a ton of bricks because of a lucky heavy stubber round to the back of the knee.
The "soft armor" of power armor is still made of metal fiber bundles that act as synthetic muscles. A stubber would be highly unlikely to ever penetrate. Plus the redundant organs and instant scar tissue would prevent any mortally wounding shot save severing the brainstem
4238
Post by: BrotherGecko
Astartes die plenty often from blood loss and internal trauma. Hence the use of blunt force weaponry so favored by Astartes. A .5in slug bouncing around your reinforced rib cage would kill a marine super dead. They are still flesh and blood and only have inhance healing abilities not super natural healing abilities.
That flex armor could easily be penetrated as it definitely does not have the same durability as the plates. Suggesting a heavy stubber couldn't penetrate it is suggesting it couldn't kill an Astartes. Which fluff would disagree with that as power armor can an does get penetrated by solid slugs and bolt rounds in numerous occasions.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Everything about SM is so sci-fi as to be supernatural to us. Strength, toughness, speed...
4238
Post by: BrotherGecko
Roight roight but there is plenty of evidence on Astartes not having super natural healing abilities. Nothing they do is too far from possibility. Except probably the eating flesh and going on a DNA vision quest.
A bolt round to the chest kills a marine. Cutting them in half kills them. Blunt force trauma to the chest kills them. Their bodies can't stop massive trauma.
Either way it has little to do with the obvious shot trap that is the joints on their armor.
78353
Post by: Wyzilla
BrotherGecko wrote:Astartes die plenty often from blood loss and internal trauma. Hence the use of blunt force weaponry so favored by Astartes. A .5in slug bouncing around your reinforced rib cage would kill a marine super dead. They are still flesh and blood and only have inhance healing abilities not super natural healing abilities.
That flex armor could easily be penetrated as it definitely does not have the same durability as the plates. Suggesting a heavy stubber couldn't penetrate it is suggesting it couldn't kill an Astartes. Which fluff would disagree with that as power armor can an does get penetrated by solid slugs and bolt rounds in numerous occasions.
Yeah, they die to blood loss and internal trauma when riddled with .75 caliber supersonic explosive shells the size of ammunition loaded in an anti-aircraft cannon that's capable of penning IFV's.
And no, heavy stubbers can't kill Astartes unless the Astartes simply stands out in the open and exposes his neck. Meanwhile they survive numerous point-blank frag grenades going off in their face without a scratch to show for it, 20mm cannons, artillery shells likely greater then a howitzer, railguns firing magical discs that shear through molecular bonds, or even weaponry that breaks apart atomic bonds.
Plus Astartes can easily survive things such as bisection and/or having most of the organs in their chest cavity vaporized so long as they receive medical attention from an apothecary or somebody else with the same level of medical knowledge. Automatically Appended Next Post: BrotherGecko wrote:Roight roight but there is plenty of evidence on Astartes not having super natural healing abilities. Nothing they do is too far from possibility. Except probably the eating flesh and going on a DNA vision quest.
A bolt round to the chest kills a marine. Cutting them in half kills them. Blunt force trauma to the chest kills them. Their bodies can't stop massive trauma.
Either way it has little to do with the obvious shot trap that is the joints on their armor.
lol
Astartes at times can accelerate while running with such speed that they break the sound barrier, they defy all knowledge known on the human brain, they can and HAVE survived being cut in half AND have the organs in their chest vaporized from a power weapon, survive being shot multiple times with a bolter, get run over by a land raider and walk it off, rip apart tank armor with their bare hands, assimilate memories by eating somebody's finger, generate instant scar tissue that stops all bleeding unless disturbed by further injury, or even continue to engage in a conversation while their body is clinically dead.
Space Marines are far from anything reasonably possible and even break physics in some cases. They're as normal as the X-Men and wouldn't be that out of place in street-level Marvel.
4238
Post by: BrotherGecko
 Wyzilla wrote: BrotherGecko wrote:Astartes die plenty often from blood loss and internal trauma. Hence the use of blunt force weaponry so favored by Astartes. A .5in slug bouncing around your reinforced rib cage would kill a marine super dead. They are still flesh and blood and only have inhance healing abilities not super natural healing abilities.
That flex armor could easily be penetrated as it definitely does not have the same durability as the plates. Suggesting a heavy stubber couldn't penetrate it is suggesting it couldn't kill an Astartes. Which fluff would disagree with that as power armor can an does get penetrated by solid slugs and bolt rounds in numerous occasions.
Yeah, they die to blood loss and internal trauma when riddled with .75 caliber supersonic explosive shells the size of ammunition loaded in an anti-aircraft cannon that's capable of penning IFV's.
And no, heavy stubbers can't kill Astartes unless the Astartes simply stands out in the open and exposes his neck. Meanwhile they survive numerous point-blank frag grenades going off in their face without a scratch to show for it, 20mm cannons, artillery shells likely greater then a howitzer, railguns firing magical discs that shear through molecular bonds, or even weaponry that breaks apart atomic bonds.
Plus Astartes can easily survive things such as bisection and/or having most of the organs in their chest cavity vaporized so long as they receive medical attention from an apothecary or somebody else with the same level of medical knowledge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrotherGecko wrote:Roight roight but there is plenty of evidence on Astartes not having super natural healing abilities. Nothing they do is too far from possibility. Except probably the eating flesh and going on a DNA vision quest.
A bolt round to the chest kills a marine. Cutting them in half kills them. Blunt force trauma to the chest kills them. Their bodies can't stop massive trauma.
Either way it has little to do with the obvious shot trap that is the joints on their armor.
lol
Astartes at times can accelerate while running with such speed that they break the sound barrier, they defy all knowledge known on the human brain, they can and HAVE survived being cut in half AND have the organs in their chest vaporized from a power weapon, survive being shot multiple times with a bolter, get run over by a land raider and walk it off, rip apart tank armor with their bare hands, assimilate memories by eating somebody's finger, generate instant scar tissue that stops all bleeding unless disturbed by further injury, or even continue to engage in a conversation while their body is clinically dead.
Space Marines are far from anything reasonably possible and even break physics in some cases. They're as normal as the X-Men and wouldn't be that out of place in street-level Marvel.
C.S Goto is that you?
78353
Post by: Wyzilla
BrotherGecko wrote: Wyzilla wrote: BrotherGecko wrote:Astartes die plenty often from blood loss and internal trauma. Hence the use of blunt force weaponry so favored by Astartes. A .5in slug bouncing around your reinforced rib cage would kill a marine super dead. They are still flesh and blood and only have inhance healing abilities not super natural healing abilities. That flex armor could easily be penetrated as it definitely does not have the same durability as the plates. Suggesting a heavy stubber couldn't penetrate it is suggesting it couldn't kill an Astartes. Which fluff would disagree with that as power armor can an does get penetrated by solid slugs and bolt rounds in numerous occasions.
Yeah, they die to blood loss and internal trauma when riddled with .75 caliber supersonic explosive shells the size of ammunition loaded in an anti-aircraft cannon that's capable of penning IFV's. And no, heavy stubbers can't kill Astartes unless the Astartes simply stands out in the open and exposes his neck. Meanwhile they survive numerous point-blank frag grenades going off in their face without a scratch to show for it, 20mm cannons, artillery shells likely greater then a howitzer, railguns firing magical discs that shear through molecular bonds, or even weaponry that breaks apart atomic bonds. Plus Astartes can easily survive things such as bisection and/or having most of the organs in their chest cavity vaporized so long as they receive medical attention from an apothecary or somebody else with the same level of medical knowledge. Automatically Appended Next Post: BrotherGecko wrote:Roight roight but there is plenty of evidence on Astartes not having super natural healing abilities. Nothing they do is too far from possibility. Except probably the eating flesh and going on a DNA vision quest. A bolt round to the chest kills a marine. Cutting them in half kills them. Blunt force trauma to the chest kills them. Their bodies can't stop massive trauma. Either way it has little to do with the obvious shot trap that is the joints on their armor.
lol Astartes at times can accelerate while running with such speed that they break the sound barrier, they defy all knowledge known on the human brain, they can and HAVE survived being cut in half AND have the organs in their chest vaporized from a power weapon, survive being shot multiple times with a bolter, get run over by a land raider and walk it off, rip apart tank armor with their bare hands, assimilate memories by eating somebody's finger, generate instant scar tissue that stops all bleeding unless disturbed by further injury, or even continue to engage in a conversation while their body is clinically dead. Space Marines are far from anything reasonably possible and even break physics in some cases. They're as normal as the X-Men and wouldn't be that out of place in street-level Marvel.
C.S Goto is that you?
How many 40k books do you own or have read? Also, do you seriously think that 40k is realistic in any form/is actually believable. Because I'm going to have to laugh again. 40K is just WHF in space with some tweaks over the decades with more grimdark piled on top.
4238
Post by: BrotherGecko
I own a lot of them and can think of zero instances of Astartes running faster then sound or surviving having their chest vaporized. Or like any of your examples.
And still has nothing to do with their armor joints being shot traps.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
The speed thing is pretty stupid, I think it's just people taking figurative writing literally (like the million world imperium).
Although marines can live through having giant holes blasted in their chest, it generally isn't for very long. There is a great story in the first tau codex that gives a good example of this, there are marines that are already pretty much dead after having their chests mostly destroyed by plasma rifles, and the apothecary doesn't even try to to save them, he knows there is no hope. He just harvests geneseed.
The story in question also is an interesting look at tau morals, so I'd recommend checking it out anyway.
76437
Post by: Otto Weston
Imo, all of these stories of Astartes surviving ridiculous wounds or having absurd powers such as running faster than the speed of sound is simply Imperial Propaganda. Wyzilla, you can choose to believe it or not because that's your prerogative but I believe that Astartes are nowhere near as effective as they're made out to be.
Don't get me wrong, they are genetically enhanced super-soldiers but that only goes so far; they're so much rarer than normal humans and yet aren't proportionately better than them. There are officially 1 million space marines and at least 10 trillion humans. Therefore for every marine, you have at least 10,000,000 humans and a Space Marine definitely isn't worth 10 million humans any day of the week.
Space Marines are the poster boys of the Imperium; designed to inspire, encourage and motivate the masses. Once in a while they might be used for a raid because they're acceptable for blitz warfare but in protracted engagements, they're not that effective.
78353
Post by: Wyzilla
Otto Weston wrote:Imo, all of these stories of Astartes surviving ridiculous wounds or having absurd powers such as running faster than the speed of sound is simply Imperial Propaganda. Wyzilla, you can choose to believe it or not because that's your prerogative but I believe that Astartes are nowhere near as effective as they're made out to be.
Don't get me wrong, they are genetically enhanced super-soldiers but that only goes so far; they're so much rarer than normal humans and yet aren't proportionately better than them. There are officially 1 million space marines and at least 10 trillion humans. Therefore for every marine, you have at least 10,000,000 humans and a Space Marine definitely isn't worth 10 million humans any day of the week.
Space Marines are the poster boys of the Imperium; designed to inspire, encourage and motivate the masses. Once in a while they might be used for a raid because they're acceptable for blitz warfare but in protracted engagements, they're not that effective.
Considering they manage to solo Craftworlds, sack Necron Tomb Worlds, hold out against hordes of Orks by themselves, etc, that "propaganda" is most certainly not false.
Especially when the propaganda theory makes no fething sense considering were Imperial citizens to read the books in-universe, they'd all be executed for heresy by being exposed to heretical information of Chaos. Almost all of the Black Library would not even exist in the Imperium as most of its material includes mention of Chaos Astartes, the Horus Heresy, Chaos Daemons, or go on about how the Imperium is doomed to die. That's not propaganda. Actual propaganda is like the old WWII films of smiling Soviet service men bulldozing the Axis lines into Berlin with no mention of the absolutely horrific losses, what the Soviet Soldiers sometimes did that made them look nearly as bad as those they were fighting, etc.
The problem is people don't seem to realize that 40K is just Marvel or DC comics, only in written form instead of comic books. It's pulp fiction like the old novellas published in the same magazines that Lovecraft originally wrote in- such as Weird Tales. Complete with everything ranging from copious amounts of PIS, wavering levels of consistency, and godawfully poor writing quality at times- just like Marvel or DC. Doesn't help either that the Imperium is slowly losing its grimdarkness more and more.
4817
Post by: Spetulhu
AFAIK Apothecaries aren't really there to perform battlefield surgery, they're there to recover the geneseed of the fallen.They will ofc evaluate the wounded - can he be put back in the fight now, is he off for MedEvac or is it game over? Marines are ridiculously tough but not invulnerable, and anyone wishing to stop one is going to use the heaviest weapon he has, preferably something that can stop light vehicles. Thus a hit bad enough to take a marine out of the fight is likely to require more attention than a few stitches.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Wyzilla wrote: Otto Weston wrote:Imo, all of these stories of Astartes surviving ridiculous wounds or having absurd powers such as running faster than the speed of sound is simply Imperial Propaganda. Wyzilla, you can choose to believe it or not because that's your prerogative but I believe that Astartes are nowhere near as effective as they're made out to be.
Don't get me wrong, they are genetically enhanced super-soldiers but that only goes so far; they're so much rarer than normal humans and yet aren't proportionately better than them. There are officially 1 million space marines and at least 10 trillion humans. Therefore for every marine, you have at least 10,000,000 humans and a Space Marine definitely isn't worth 10 million humans any day of the week.
Space Marines are the poster boys of the Imperium; designed to inspire, encourage and motivate the masses. Once in a while they might be used for a raid because they're acceptable for blitz warfare but in protracted engagements, they're not that effective.
Considering they manage to solo Craftworlds, sack Necron Tomb Worlds, hold out against hordes of Orks by themselves, etc, that "propaganda" is most certainly not false.
Especially when the propaganda theory makes no fething sense considering were Imperial citizens to read the books in-universe, they'd all be executed for heresy by being exposed to heretical information of Chaos. Almost all of the Black Library would not even exist in the Imperium as most of its material includes mention of Chaos Astartes, the Horus Heresy, Chaos Daemons, or go on about how the Imperium is doomed to die. That's not propaganda. Actual propaganda is like the old WWII films of smiling Soviet service men bulldozing the Axis lines into Berlin with no mention of the absolutely horrific losses, what the Soviet Soldiers sometimes did that made them look nearly as bad as those they were fighting, etc.
The problem is people don't seem to realize that 40K is just Marvel or DC comics, only in written form instead of comic books. It's pulp fiction like the old novellas published in the same magazines that Lovecraft originally wrote in- such as Weird Tales. Complete with everything ranging from copious amounts of PIS, wavering levels of consistency, and godawfully poor writing quality at times- just like Marvel or DC. Doesn't help either that the Imperium is slowly losing its grimdarkness more and more.
Exalted.
There's plot armour, sure, but there's really no propaganda in BL.
With the obvious exception of CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
Propaganda, no, all of it established canon, also no. The codexes are generally regarded as better sources, and certain authors are often regarded as being better sources than others. A lot of the rediculous stuff (like the single squad of tacs slaughtering thousands of DA) are generally ignored. That includes single squads couquoring worlds (the idea of a squad, much less a single marine taking on an entire world or, even worse, craftworld is so stupid as to make me automatically doubt any poster who uses stuff like that in an argument)..
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
By who and why?
 Co'tor Shas wrote:and certain authors are often regarded as being better sources than others.
Aside from backflipping Gotonators that is not a real concern.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
By most people who I have talked with on the subject, and because, unlike novels, they are more factually and without the same level of main character bias. It only takes one or two plasma shots to kill marines, but marines can kill entire armies? I call BS on that. Now the marines I personally imagines are more toned down than others, I full admit that (it makes them more interesting to me), but their is a lot of stupid stuff in novels, and your marines seem to be much stronger than average (army biases on both sides I suppose).
4817
Post by: Spetulhu
Co'tor Shas wrote: It only takes one or two plasma shots to kill marines, but marines can kill entire armies? I call BS on that.
Well, if marines were actually used where they are strong they could - if not destroy entire armies - at least rout them by taking out the command structure with fast drop pod assaults. Marines are shock troops, not the chaff you're supposed to throw into meat grinders against endless tank regiments and artillery. They don't hold lines, they break lines.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
Oh, defiantly, but not one squad versus a giant army. Something about the size of a 2k point army, assuming it doesn't have too much AA or anti-heavy armour.
For example, a hunter cadre composed of devilfish equipped fire-warriors could definitely be routed, but a cadre heavy with crisis suits and riptides would probably wipe the marines.
And it brings up a point that should be brought up. People often have them doing the gaurd's job, when they should be doing lighting attacks on enemy positions
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
So the codices are all solid?
Good to know.
*Checks CSM codex*
A CSM in 437.M35 makes a pact with Khorne and rampages on a fortified industrial world. He, alone, depopulates district after district. The planet is evacuated and declared Perditas.
926.M41: The Chaos warband known as the Purge kills 14 billion imperial citizens in one month.
995:M41: The volcanic forge world of Abheilüng is attacked by the Dark Mechanicus' Warpsmiths. The Warpsmiths attack by unleashing hidden Daemon Engines from below the surface of the planet. The planet is depopulated in (also) a month.
If the CSM are repeatedly able to kill billions over the cause of a month (let that sink in), then they have some serious depopulation skills.
I don't see why SM should be much worse. Very viable for planetary assault, indeed.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
I said more factual, not fully. They tend to be better. They usually have stupid stuff, usually often less of it.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Who decides what is stupid and not? You?
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
The majority. I will point out (again) that I am basing this on my experience with myself and others. Most people, for example, think a squad of tacs slaughtering thousands of DE is stupid. Most people (I'm sure) would thing that a single being depopulating an entire world is stupid. Fire Warrior has a single FW killing dozens, if not hundreds, of marines, and most people agree that is stupid. Don't you?
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Co'tor Shas wrote:The majority. I will point out (again) that I am basing this on my experience with myself and others. Most people, for example, think a squad of tacs slaughtering thousands of DE is stupid. Most people (I'm sure) would thing that a single being depopulating an entire world is stupid. Fire Warrior has a single FW killing dozens, if not hundreds, of marines, and most people agree that is stupid. Don't you?
You need to provide some kind of citation that the majority agrees with you. An universal poll, or something. I am sure your clique might agree with you, but that has little bearing on what actually matters.
Otherwise, we can just go back the fluff-friendly happy days of the tabletop game.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
I'm not talking about my friends or something, I'm talking about anyone I have fluff conversations with. On this forum, or at my FLGS, anywhere. Do you think that a single squad of tacs can slaughter thousands of DE?
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Co'tor Shas wrote:I'm not talking about my friends or something, I'm talking about anyone I have fluff conversations with. On this forum, or at my FLGS, anywhere. Do you think that a single squad of tacs can slaughter thousands of DE?
'Civilians', yes. Warriors, no.
OTOH I am of the belief that a single squad of either SM or DE could slaughter thousands of IG.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
Yeah, I don't think they were civilians. IIRC it included the lordthingy of the group...thingy (not too well up on my DE names).
I'm sure a squad of space marines could kill that many, just not all at one time. At that point they would have no ammuntion left. They DE (or IG) could just destroy them from range.
4817
Post by: Spetulhu
40K isn't just DC and Marvel, it's also action movies. You never ever run out of ammo - unless it's a dramatic moment to do so.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
Which makes arguing hard fluff so annoying.  I'm the sort of person who wants no know exactly how tall Bara Dur is, so 40k frustates me to no end. That's why I like armies that use less sizable ammunition than bolts. Pulse charge packs have a canonical capacity of fifty shots, so they carry five of those and they are set. I think a las charge pack is something like 60-80.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Am I the only one who has no problem with pocket dimensions in Boltgun magazines?
I mean, that alone is not enough to hurt my immersion.
In the same way any IG player must have some serious suspension of disbelief to abide the Battle Cannon.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
Perhaps it just me, but I like hard facts. I tend to separate what I view as "story facts" (things created to facilitate a story, or fill plot holes) and "background facts" (things made to expand upon the background, with no extreme bias).
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
I think the excuse 'it's future tech' is pretty good for just handwaving the numbers.
I mean, what we take for granted today was utterly inconcievable a thousand years ago. Imagine thirty-eight thousand years into the future!
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
I always liked the suggestion that the mags were deep-stiked into the bolters.
4817
Post by: Spetulhu
 Ashiraya wrote:I mean, what we take for granted today was utterly inconcievable a thousand years ago.
Not to mention the IoM treats technology as magic. The AdMech use religious chants to memorize maintenance manuals. Space Marines are told to venerate the battle gear of the dead and honor their weapons. IG tank crews ask a TechPriest to bless the cooling fan so it stops making that damn grinding noise - and one particular crew even got a SM Chaplain to give a blessing too (old WD short story).
But ofc, some things we do today were well known long before. The Byzantines had flame throwers, enough to keep the Turk at bay for over a century. We just don't know the recipe of their fuel even if we know they had an advanced two-cycle pump. Primitive peoples built huge buildings, things we'd consider not impossible but just too expensive today. And so on.
4238
Post by: BrotherGecko
And yet still has nothing to do with the topic. Super hero space marines can get their own topic where its relevant.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
Wait, what was the topic again.
51866
Post by: Bobthehero
So when the SM do something utterly ridiculous its fine, but when IG characters are able to hurt a SM, its ridiculous propaganda? 'kay...
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Bobthehero wrote:So when the SM do something utterly ridiculous its fine, but when IG characters are able to hurt a SM, its ridiculous propaganda? 'kay...
No, they are on par. We just have different definitions of 'ridiculous'.
4817
Post by: Spetulhu
That's true. The worst SM fanboys were crying foul at a BL quote where a marine had taken several salvoes of fire from a pack of guardsmen and was down on his knees with several smoking holes in his chestplate, then got finished off with a couple hot-shots to the head. Sure, it sucks... But he had already taken more wounds than a normal human would live to witness, and they still had to do a headshot to finish him. That's one tough bastard.
78353
Post by: Wyzilla
Co'tor Shas wrote:Propaganda, no, all of it established canon, also no. The codexes are generally regarded as better sources, and certain authors are often regarded as being better sources than others. A lot of the rediculous stuff (like the single squad of tacs slaughtering thousands of DA) are generally ignored. That includes single squads couquoring worlds (the idea of a squad, much less a single marine taking on an entire world or, even worse, craftworld is so stupid as to make me automatically doubt any poster who uses stuff like that in an argument)..
Not single Marines, but when a single Chapter like the Invaders storms a Craftworld and kills it when Craftworlds are supposedly filled to the brim with MEQ's and have a population of several billion.
Hell, the Propaganda angle completely falls apart considering that in Path of the Eldar, the Eldar's own book, Alaitoc is nearly destroyed by the Sons of Orar and Imperial Guardsmen. Or how Eldar get spanked by Astartes in other instances in their own bloody book.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
The eldar are endless fluff butmonkeys. Even their victories are Pyrrhic.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
It's inevitable - the more rare, elite and precious your warriors are, the more it hurts and the more noticeable it is when you get rekt.
Because IG can afford to lose a few billion guardsmen just like that. The Eldar can't. And both die all the same when shot by artillery. And they die all the same in the tabletop. Who gives a gak about consistency and internal logic as long as the IG players can get epic amounts of kills with proportionately tiny armies too????
Some like that type of grimdark 'everything dies to mah melta whether you are a grot or a DP' but I don't. I think it's ridiculous, and the wrong type of grimdark.
But each to their own.
51866
Post by: Bobthehero
Oh booo ooooh give me a break, IG players have to field far more troops and whatnot compared to other armies. And I am not asking for meltas to kill DP, merely that they kill normal infantry, cuz you know, ITS A fething ANTITANK WEAPON feth.
And I think its far more grimdark that the super soldier that takes years and blah blah blah die like a nobody because some idiot flung an artillery shell over him. And its not likt IG aren't dieing either
And hey, the TT is a lot more consistent than any source or fluff, since its all over the place, the only reason you dismiss it is because it doesn't follow your ''yay my super McCool dudes McCool can kill billions of people weeeeeee, we're super, we have no weakness, we're the best, weeeeeeeee, IG sucks, feth you IG players'' Oh yeah, very grimdark, very much so, uh uh.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Bobthehero wrote:Oh booo ooooh give me a break, IG players have to field far more troops and whatnot compared to other armies. And I am not asking for meltas to kill DP, merely that they kill normal infantry, cuz you know, ITS A fething ANTITANK WEAPON feth.
Yes, because 6 pt Boyz, 6 pt Gaunts/Gants and 3 pt Gretchin are so much more elite?  You gotta have way larger armies of Guardsmen? And I think its far more grimdark that the super soldier that takes years and blah blah blah die like a nobody because some idiot flung an artillery shell over him. And its not likt IG aren't dieing either
Nah, I think it's far better grimdark to have the meaningful battles be like a clash of demigods that the Imperium throws hapless normal guys into, and fighting any real war outside of petty rebellions and raids is like being ripped up into an insane fiery hurricane. So you are basically a soldier, and you are going to be thrown into a war that is waaaaaaaaaaaay out of your league, but they throw you in anyway because MANPOWER.  Nice thing to look forward to. Grimdark! And hey, the TT is a lot more consistent than any source or fluff, since its all over the place
Wounds? The melee to hit table? Hell, any to hit table? Gretchin shrugging off Destroyer weapons? (With a 16% chance no less) the only reason you dismiss it is because it doesn't follow your ''yay my super McCool dudes McCool can kill billions of people weeeeeee, we're super, we have no weakness, we're the best, weeeeeeeee, IG sucks, feth you IG players'' Oh yeah, very grimdark, very much so, uh uh.
Nuh nuh nuh, don't go there man.
51866
Post by: Bobthehero
TT is not perfect, its far better than BL
So the IG is not the only army that can do horde, still usually have to buy more units than others.
94180
Post by: Kiss_Chaos
Apothecaries exist for a reason. Also, I dug up some fluff from a while age (1st or 2nd ed). A marine jumps on a mole mortal shell to protect folks nearby. He is mortally wounded, but he actually dies of Medic euthanasia. Another Marine gave blood transfusions to four other Marines (using his own blood, so he effectively .donates to Red Chross 4 times).
Marine is hit with a melta. Has to have his arm amputated, and has some other minor damage. Another case, a medic uses a medipack to stabilize a marine with missing leg, and maybe gets the marine back in the fight.
So to me, Marines are tough, but their main strength is tech. Their armor works well but nowhere near perfect. They do take significant casualties, but are much better at surviving unconsciousness, limb loss, etc. This also explains why Chapter's were shuffled in & out of the Badab War
If you want
87312
Post by: thegreatchimp
Co'tor Shas wrote:By most people who I have talked with on the subject, and because, unlike novels, they are more factually and without the same level of main character bias. It only takes one or two plasma shots to kill marines, but marines can kill entire armies? I call BS on that. Now the marines I personally imagines are more toned down than others, I full admit that (it makes them more interesting to me), but their is a lot of stupid stuff in novels, and your marines seem to be much stronger than average (army biases on both sides I suppose).
There's a huge disparity between the power of marines in the background and on the table. However I go with what's in the novels as a basis for their capabilities, not visa versa. There's & lot of records of a single chapter or even just a few companies pacifying or defending an entire planet from hundreds of thousands or millions of enemies. The way I see it is they're toned down on the tabletop in the interests of making a practically enjoyable game (10 marines vs 400 orks being somewhat impractical!)
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
The key part is that the tabletop game is hobby-focused.
The hobby would not work (well, not in GW's eyes anyway) if you had to have 50 Guardsmen per Astartes.
Nobody would want to play IG!
78353
Post by: Wyzilla
Ashiraya wrote:The key part is that the tabletop game is hobby-focused.
The hobby would not work (well, not in GW's eyes anyway) if you had to have 50 Guardsmen per Astartes.
Nobody would want to play IG!
And they would have barely any profit on Astartes either. You simply couldn't make a real TT game sell well if one faction just needs ten models and an IFV to comprise an army.
92308
Post by: Finlandiaperkele
Wyzilla wrote: Ashiraya wrote:The key part is that the tabletop game is hobby-focused. The hobby would not work (well, not in GW's eyes anyway) if you had to have 50 Guardsmen per Astartes. Nobody would want to play IG!
And they would have barely any profit on Astartes either. You simply couldn't make a real TT game sell well if one faction just needs ten models and an IFV to comprise an army.
And that said army wipes the floor with most armies... Also the said 50 guardsmen would have all the support elements also... Even that wouldn't be very balanced...
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
One thing to consider is the Meta is also differnt in the fluff from table top.
Whats the most common army in table top 40k? Space Marines. thus we tend to design around the assumption of 3+ armor being common. etc. but in the fluff thats' pretty rare. people likely take flamers instead of plasma guns etc. try building an army based around the assumption of fighting Infantry heavy Imperial guard. I bet it'd have trouble with Marines
54708
Post by: TheCustomLime
Ashiraya wrote:The key part is that the tabletop game is hobby-focused.
The hobby would not work (well, not in GW's eyes anyway) if you had to have 50 Guardsmen per Astartes.
Nobody would want to play IG!
I'll have you know that I play IG for the tanks!
51866
Post by: Bobthehero
I wouldn't play the game period if there was one faction so op.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Exactly, and GW wants your $$$.
That is why the game is the way it is.
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
there ARE in 40k some pretty extreme ends for troops. compare Grey Knight Terminators vs Imperial Guardsmen.
51866
Post by: Bobthehero
They're giant robots vehicles, that's fine.If you were telling me that one faction basic infantry can eat a few artillery shell before going down, I'd go full ''nope'' Grey Knight termies still get instant death by most arty shells.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
And they still get their 2+ armour save against most artillery shells, too.
And my point stands. If you can stand an army consisting of 4-5 giant stompy robots forming a force of their own, then clearly the problem is not that too few enemies are boring to fight.
I don't think 375 point models is right for Space Marines, though...
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
I don't know, I find knights incredibly boring to play against. Most of my units are automatically rendered useless, and my units that I use to kill them (crisis suits mostly) and insta-killed by them most of the time.
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
Ashiraya wrote:And they still get their 2+ armour save against most artillery shells, too.
And my point stands. If you can stand an army consisting of 4-5 giant stompy robots forming a force of their own, then clearly the problem is not that too few enemies are boring to fight.
I don't think 375 point models is right for Space Marines, though...
I know someone who runs a unbound army of chapter masters as deathwatch, it's not quite 375 points a model mind you but it's intreasting none the less
|
|
