Hi guys,
Recently my wife said that she's kinda not digging 40k because of the larger scale and found it a little overwhelming. Are there any games similar to 40k but on a smaller scale?
What specifically do you mean by "similar to 40k"? There are a lot of games around the same scale, but they aren't grimdark war torn sci-fi with Space Marines.
You are not contrained by any stipulations of size in any system. Your book your rules.
Personally I think that 40k plays best at 1000-1500 points, I have played allot of good 750 point games too.
True it means all the big toys aren't on the table at once, but a decent basic force and the odd headliner unit return play back to a tactical game with plenty of space for manoeuvre.
Also the number of specialist rules is greatly reduced speeding up play.
I mean nothing can be more like 40k than 40k.
Of course there's also Necromunda. Super game that one.
Try Yhatzee. It's a nice game like 40k with the same strategic depth (roll dice, reroll dice, etc) and the same amount of fun. You don't even have to use miniatures!
Although, you can. You could put any amount of miniatures in front of one another and play a few games of Yhatzee.
Wonderwolf wrote:If you want both.... well, there really is only 40K.
WayneTheGame wrote:There are a lot of games around the same scale, but they aren't grimdark war torn sci-fi with Space Marines.
notprop wrote:I mean nothing can be more like 40k than 40k.
Or you could ignore all those other OUR RULES OUR MINIS games, buy something like Victory Decision: Future Combat or Rogue Planet, and slot your very same little platoon or squad of grimdark Space Marines or whatever right into those handy customisable army lists and profile creation rules.
I'm assuming that by "scale" you mean "scope". i.e. less figures per person. I'll make a few suggestions for games that have a similar "feel" to 40k, but with a smaller scope and less miniatures.
The 2.0 version of Warpath is supposed to be around Platoon sized which is considerably smaller than current 40k games. It's free from the Mantic website.
Also, I'm a big fan of the WarEngine (Version 2.1 or so) Ruleset. It's solidly platoon sized though it only handles light vehicles. you can get it for free from the Warengine yahoo group.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WarEngine/info
Both these games have a 40k'ish feel in that they are a bit gonzo and definitely sci-fantasy, haveing a balance between ranged and melee combat that is very smilar to 40k. However both rulesets are much simpler having far fewer special rules. Both rulesets are well suited for use with 40k figures. Warpath having 4 warband lists that proxy well for most 40k forces. WarEngine has 40k lists and has a unit creation mechanic for making your own stats.
wikkedj wrote: Hi guys,
Recently my wife said that she's kinda not digging 40k because of the larger scale and found it a little overwhelming. Are there any games similar to 40k but on a smaller scale?
If you're talking literally the large scale, like 28-32mm plus assorted huge monsters and stompy robots, then I heartily recommend checking out either DropZone Commander (which is a great 10mm scale game, and the starter sets are excellent), or Epic: Armageddon (which is 40k on 6mm scale and is long since out of production, the rules are free and absolutely excellent, the models are hard to find or have to be proxied).
DzC is certainly a fun game and the starter box even comes with enough terrain to play, and Epic: Armageddon is probably one of the best wargames I've ever played and still captures the 40k feel.
Each has better rules than 40k and for Maliefaux and Infinity, better miniatures.
Rules, definitely. Miniatures? Ehhhh. Miniature design is probably one of 40k's best selling points (design, not actual production). Warmachine looks cool, but they don't seem to have minis that stand out as much as some of the Daemons
I don't know, Infinity's newer sculpts are flat out amazing and I'd say that in terms of design and quality, Maliefaux's plastics do in fact beat GW's.
Play 40k as it is, but:
Limit your games to 1000 points or less,
Stop yourselves from using big expensive models or units,
Ignore Apoc and Escalation,
Ignore GW's push to make everything as epic as possible.
We often play 600 or 1000 point games at the club I go to, and we're fine. There no big problem with spamming, super-heavies, netlists, or other things that people complain about.
This all assumes you mean scale as the size of the games, not the size of the models.
I am going to throw out an ironically named game that is good for either] smaller minis! or fewer numbered minis (as well as for pulling off larger games.
In the late-70's/early-80's a company by the name of Fantasy Games Unlimited published a game called.... Wait for it....
Space Marine
That was one of the greatest Sci-Fi miniatures games ever made prior to 40K.
In fact, you will recognize a great deal in it, as it is very similar to 40k's progenitor: Laserburn (which itself is pretty identical to first edition 40k... Well, it IS first edition 40k).
Wonderwolf wrote: Scale as in "size of the miniatures"? Scale as in "number of miniatures"?
If you want fewer minis, battles with "space-marine-sized" infantry shooting at each other - Infinity, MERCS, Deadzone (semi-board-gamey), etc..
If you want smaller minis, battles wtih "tanks, planes, etc.." - Dropzone Commander, Spartan Games stuff.
Ironically, Dropzone Commander fulfils both. A standard size game has less models than your average 1500pt 40k army (probably less for both armies combined than one 40k army), is smaller in model scale.
It just hurts to spend $11 when it was thrown in as an option in the big rule book in prior editions.
MWHistorian wrote:I'm VERY desirous of that Robotech game.
I am a kickstarter backer, long story short: deal with retail, dealing with Palladium directly: toys with your emotions.
The models for the humans have very good detail but a bit fussy, if you know what you are doing; about 20 minutes assembly per model.
Rules are fairly straightforward, just got a FAQ out so some strange bits have been addressed.
I guess I would not discourage, the box for the game is reasonable for ~$75 dollars I have seen out there.
frozenwastes wrote:If you are looking for a free Kill team like game, might I suggest In The Emperor's Name:
http://iten-game.org/
This, is AWESOME.
Thanks!
It is like "Net Epic Armageddon" (http://www.net-armageddon.org/) did for Epic 40k for Necromunda.
The rules read like Necromunda but seem a little less fussy (love that torrent of fire rule).
This system is badly in need of a "army builder" type list since it sets it's own points cost (some calculated lists made?)
Why do fan-based rules like these seem to excite more than stuff we see recently out of GW?
It is like night and day.
Talizvar wrote: It just hurts to spend $11 when it was thrown in as an option in the big rule book in prior editions.
Previous edition 40k rulebooks often go for very cheap on eBay and on used book sites like Abebooks. Even better I bet there are 40k people in your area that have them sitting on a shelf and would let them go for $10 or less.
Why do fan-based rules like these seem to excite more than stuff we see recently out of GW?
It is like night and day.
GW's games are tools to sell models. People making games out of a love for the hobby have gameplay as their top priority. It's easy to outperform even professional game designers when you have "good game" as your priority and they have "push model sales" as theirs.
To be fair, ITEN is written by a professional game designer. The authors did two books for Osprey Publishing's wargame line for a Victorian steam punk version of ITEN called In Her Majesty's Name. Incidentally:
If you're going to play In The Emperor's Name (a good idea), I strongly suggest the second edition which is available here:
https://thegamesshed.wordpress.com/2011/07/02/in-the-emperors-name/ It's a very playable game with easy to learn rules, a massive number of Retinue lists and a narrative campaign system.
The third edition which is available here:
http://iten-game.org Is unfinished. The Retinue list (one of the best things about the rules) has not been updated for the third edition and for some reasonhe weapons list has not been completed (alphabetically, no weapons after the letter "K" have grit modifiers?)
The third edition is still worth looking at if you're willing to DIY some things but unfortunately as of 2013 The development team seems to have lost interest in it. I've raised these issues on their forum and got no help.
If you want a ready to play game, the 2.0 version is the way to go.
I get them not wanting to spend time working on a game that can never truly be "theirs" compared to time spent working on supplements for In Her Majesty's Name.
frozenwastes wrote: I get them not wanting to spend time working on a game that can never truly be "theirs" compared to time spent working on supplements for In Her Majesty's Name.
Possibly. From what I've read, Craig (the original writer and writer for IHMN) turned the entire project over to a community group. It was that group that put out the 3rd edition and a buggy online unit builder and then promptly dropped it. I can understand a group losing interest, but the fact that they put out a clearly unfinished weapons list as "official" and never released the updated retinue lists rubs me the wrong way. If they'd put the effort required for a website and retinue builder into just finishing the retinue list and weapons list, we'd have a great looking game on our hands. But they didn't and we don't.
Still, I do like the rules and I want others to like them too, so whenever I see ITEN mentioned, I try to point folks toward the complete ruleset that will give them the most fun with the least amount of DIY and confusion, that being 2.0.
Still, I do like the rules and I want others to like them too, so whenever I see ITEN mentioned, I try to point folks toward the complete ruleset that will give them the most fun with the least amount of DIY and confusion, that being 2.0.
I had no idea ITEN 3 was different people. I guess I didn't really look that closely.
2.0 works. Good call on that. If I recommend the game in the future, I'll use the link to 2.0
I could be wrong, but I think 3.0 is many of the same folks that worked on 2.0, but without the involvement or guidance of Craig, the original writer.
I think most of Craig's gaming publishing for the last few years has been focused on In Her Magesty's name. It's a game I'm really looking forward to playing when my RAFM Steamship pirates KS delivers later this year.
I use 54mm colonials, Franco-Prussian War and Union ACW figures/toy soldiers plus repainted plastic dinosaurs and scratchbuilt bits and bobs. Most of my stuff is a hollow earth type scenario where the Great Powers are sending expeditions down below.
The core system works though. Whether it's ITEN 2.0 or Osprey's printed steampunk stuff. It's a good place to start for "small 40k"
frozenwastes wrote: I use 54mm colonials, Franco-Prussian War and Union ACW figures/toy soldiers plus repainted plastic dinosaurs and scratchbuilt bits and bobs. Most of my stuff is a hollow earth type scenario where the Great Powers are sending expeditions down below.
That sounds really Awesome! Large scale 1800's pulp adventure!
Absolutionis wrote: Try Yhatzee. It's a nice game like 40k with the same strategic depth (roll dice, reroll dice, etc) and the same amount of fun. You don't even have to use miniatures!
Although, you can. You could put any amount of miniatures in front of one another and play a few games of Yhatzee.
This thread made me download the 2nd edition battle bible. I read the whole rules section while I waited for my floor to dry. I didn't even look at 40k until I think it was late 3rd to 4th, and it took me several days and re-reading to understand the newest incarnation of rules.
I'd like to think I'm not a dumb person, but that book certainly makes me feel like it.
Kill Team - combines all the grimdark of 40k (which is the only good thing left to the franchise) with a small enough scale that you can actually remember all the USRs you need to play.
Personally I liked the game I played with these rules better than the 40K supplement that came out during 6th edition. It still utilizes the 40 K big rule book but there are some changes on certain rules etc.
Now, most of you know of this I am sure, and a good lot of you have proberbly played it at some point, but that leaves the question: Why don't we see more to it? It is quality work, unofficial of course, but mostly balanced, fun to use and it fixes a lot of the problems the game has, so why isn't it more widespread? Aren't people talking about it on the forums for some reason, or is it really that unknown?
I have ditched regular 40K completely for the moment being, as I find HoR Kill Team to be the best way to play the game, and for that very reason I'd like to give my reasons as to why you should play it too! Be free to ask questions or add to the list, the more the merrier!
1. It's FREE!: Or, mostly free. You'll still need the Codex for most of the factions and the main rulebook, but the supplement itself is completely free, available on the blog itself.
2. No loopholes!: When making supplements like this, the easiest way to add all available options for all factions would be to allow, say, all factions to take "One elite slot for each Troops" and weird stuff like that, but Heralds of Ruin didn't do that - Oh no. They made an entire Army List for EVERY faction currently in the game, with new entries and limitations to keep exploitation down. Enjoy a complete and revised version of you favourite army's list and make something truly unique to this game!
3. It has NEW content, too!: Have you ever wanted to play Deathwatch in 40K, for real? Or maybe Adebtus Arbites? What about Genestealer Cults? HoR Kill Team has all that, and more! It is very obvious that the producers of the supplements are fans and want the very same stuff everyone else want from regular 40K, so look forward to be able to play the factions who are normally unusable or simply not represented in anything other than fluff! Not only that, but all factions have their own list of Relics and Armory items to really personificate your dudes!
4. Fixed, revised rebuilt!: Tired of having your faction bite the dust all the time? Well, the creators of Kill Team certainly seemed like it, so most of the traditionally weak factions have now been put up to speed - Not only does the small and claustrophobic environment of a 250 pt game allow each model to be more than mere cannonfodder, the rules themselves very changed and added to for many individual models, allowing you to use models that would otherwise be completely useless in game (I.e the entire goddamn Sisters of Battle Codex).
5. Far less cheese!: Tired of Ion Accelerator Riptides and Leman Russ Battle Tanks wiping out whole squads with impunity? Well, here's your answer to those shengians - They aren't in there! Only models and units who can roughly compete are in the game, and so Vehicles and Monstrous Creatures are almost untakable, allowing the footsoldiers and veterans to really shine!
6. Cover is a thing!: It is explicitly stated in the main HoR Kill Team rule book that a proper game of Kill Team should be played on as cover-heavy and claustrophobic a board as possible, allowing models who are usually weak and frail to really shine - Stalk through ruins with melee assassins, or achieve control over the streets by putting you Devastator on a rooftop! If you are currently thinking of Necromunda or Mordheim, good - You are paying attention!
7. It's a cheap game!: For most Teams you won't need more than a few boxes of models, who most of you should already have, so there's no excuse when talking about the availability of models! You just need some terrain and you are golden!
8. It's cinematic and dramatic!: We all know how Gets Hot works, but wouldn't it be awesome if it was represented the way Plasma were meant to be, by making them EXPLODE? What about having people catch fire when hit by Flamers? What if you were actually allowed to jump around ruins with your Wyches, gaining a Strength advantage when making a jumping attack? All this is a part of Kill Team, alongside more optional rules like Injury rules and similar!
9. It has a Campaign Mode!: If you know how Necromunda and Mordheim are like when in Campaign mode, then you know what this is all about - Build your team through battles, upgrade their gear, give them new team mates, by base upgrades and Battle Honours to furhter hone their skills. It's not just a game of upgrading though, as you have to mind your model count, buy new recruits and exploit your enemies weaknesses, or you will be left in the dust by players far stronger than you!
Now, most of you know of this I am sure, and a good lot of you have proberbly played it at some point, but that leaves the question: Why don't we see more to it? It is quality work, unofficial of course, but mostly balanced, fun to use and it fixes a lot of the problems the game has, so why isn't it more widespread? Aren't people talking about it on the forums for some reason, or is it really that unknown?
I have ditched regular 40K completely for the moment being, as I find HoR Kill Team to be the best way to play the game, and for that very reason I'd like to give my reasons as to why you should play it too! Be free to ask questions or add to the list, the more the merrier!
Spoiler:
1. It's FREE!: Or, mostly free. You'll still need the Codex for most of the factions and the main rulebook, but the supplement itself is completely free, available on the blog itself.
2. No loopholes!: When making supplements like this, the easiest way to add all available options for all factions would be to allow, say, all factions to take "One elite slot for each Troops" and weird stuff like that, but Heralds of Ruin didn't do that - Oh no. They made an entire Army List for EVERY faction currently in the game, with new entries and limitations to keep exploitation down. Enjoy a complete and revised version of you favourite army's list and make something truly unique to this game!
3. It has NEW content, too!: Have you ever wanted to play Deathwatch in 40K, for real? Or maybe Adebtus Arbites? What about Genestealer Cults? HoR Kill Team has all that, and more! It is very obvious that the producers of the supplements are fans and want the very same stuff everyone else want from regular 40K, so look forward to be able to play the factions who are normally unusable or simply not represented in anything other than fluff! Not only that, but all factions have their own list of Relics and Armory items to really personificate your dudes!
4. Fixed, revised rebuilt!: Tired of having your faction bite the dust all the time? Well, the creators of Kill Team certainly seemed like it, so most of the traditionally weak factions have now been put up to speed - Not only does the small and claustrophobic environment of a 250 pt game allow each model to be more than mere cannonfodder, the rules themselves very changed and added to for many individual models, allowing you to use models that would otherwise be completely useless in game (I.e the entire goddamn Sisters of Battle Codex).
5. Far less cheese!: Tired of Ion Accelerator Riptides and Leman Russ Battle Tanks wiping out whole squads with impunity? Well, here's your answer to those shengians - They aren't in there! Only models and units who can roughly compete are in the game, and so Vehicles and Monstrous Creatures are almost untakable, allowing the footsoldiers and veterans to really shine!
6. Cover is a thing!: It is explicitly stated in the main HoR Kill Team rule book that a proper game of Kill Team should be played on as cover-heavy and claustrophobic a board as possible, allowing models who are usually weak and frail to really shine - Stalk through ruins with melee assassins, or achieve control over the streets by putting you Devastator on a rooftop! If you are currently thinking of Necromunda or Mordheim, good - You are paying attention!
7. It's a cheap game!: For most Teams you won't need more than a few boxes of models, who most of you should already have, so there's no excuse when talking about the availability of models! You just need some terrain and you are golden!
8. It's cinematic and dramatic!: We all know how Gets Hot works, but wouldn't it be awesome if it was represented the way Plasma were meant to be, by making them EXPLODE? What about having people catch fire when hit by Flamers? What if you were actually allowed to jump around ruins with your Wyches, gaining a Strength advantage when making a jumping attack? All this is a part of Kill Team, alongside more optional rules like Injury rules and similar!
9. It has a Campaign Mode!: If you know how Necromunda and Mordheim are like when in Campaign mode, then you know what this is all about - Build your team through battles, upgrade their gear, give them new team mates, by base upgrades and Battle Honours to furhter hone their skills. It's not just a game of upgrading though, as you have to mind your model count, buy new recruits and exploit your enemies weaknesses, or you will be left in the dust by players far stronger than you
Sounds pretty cool. Which version(s) of 40k is Heralds of Ruin compatible with? I'm completely done buying 40k rulebooks and didn't buy the current edition. However, like most former 40k players I have alot of old codices, rulebooks and figures. If I can use earlier editions it'd be something I might try. If it's made for the current edition than it becomes a $100+ game.
Now, most of you know of this I am sure, and a good lot of you have proberbly played it at some point, but that leaves the question: Why don't we see more to it? It is quality work, unofficial of course, but mostly balanced, fun to use and it fixes a lot of the problems the game has, so why isn't it more widespread? Aren't people talking about it on the forums for some reason, or is it really that unknown?
I have ditched regular 40K completely for the moment being, as I find HoR Kill Team to be the best way to play the game, and for that very reason I'd like to give my reasons as to why you should play it too! Be free to ask questions or add to the list, the more the merrier!
Spoiler:
1. It's FREE!: Or, mostly free. You'll still need the Codex for most of the factions and the main rulebook, but the supplement itself is completely free, available on the blog itself.
2. No loopholes!: When making supplements like this, the easiest way to add all available options for all factions would be to allow, say, all factions to take "One elite slot for each Troops" and weird stuff like that, but Heralds of Ruin didn't do that - Oh no. They made an entire Army List for EVERY faction currently in the game, with new entries and limitations to keep exploitation down. Enjoy a complete and revised version of you favourite army's list and make something truly unique to this game!
3. It has NEW content, too!: Have you ever wanted to play Deathwatch in 40K, for real? Or maybe Adebtus Arbites? What about Genestealer Cults? HoR Kill Team has all that, and more! It is very obvious that the producers of the supplements are fans and want the very same stuff everyone else want from regular 40K, so look forward to be able to play the factions who are normally unusable or simply not represented in anything other than fluff! Not only that, but all factions have their own list of Relics and Armory items to really personificate your dudes!
4. Fixed, revised rebuilt!: Tired of having your faction bite the dust all the time? Well, the creators of Kill Team certainly seemed like it, so most of the traditionally weak factions have now been put up to speed - Not only does the small and claustrophobic environment of a 250 pt game allow each model to be more than mere cannonfodder, the rules themselves very changed and added to for many individual models, allowing you to use models that would otherwise be completely useless in game (I.e the entire goddamn Sisters of Battle Codex).
5. Far less cheese!: Tired of Ion Accelerator Riptides and Leman Russ Battle Tanks wiping out whole squads with impunity? Well, here's your answer to those shengians - They aren't in there! Only models and units who can roughly compete are in the game, and so Vehicles and Monstrous Creatures are almost untakable, allowing the footsoldiers and veterans to really shine!
6. Cover is a thing!: It is explicitly stated in the main HoR Kill Team rule book that a proper game of Kill Team should be played on as cover-heavy and claustrophobic a board as possible, allowing models who are usually weak and frail to really shine - Stalk through ruins with melee assassins, or achieve control over the streets by putting you Devastator on a rooftop! If you are currently thinking of Necromunda or Mordheim, good - You are paying attention!
7. It's a cheap game!: For most Teams you won't need more than a few boxes of models, who most of you should already have, so there's no excuse when talking about the availability of models! You just need some terrain and you are golden!
8. It's cinematic and dramatic!: We all know how Gets Hot works, but wouldn't it be awesome if it was represented the way Plasma were meant to be, by making them EXPLODE? What about having people catch fire when hit by Flamers? What if you were actually allowed to jump around ruins with your Wyches, gaining a Strength advantage when making a jumping attack? All this is a part of Kill Team, alongside more optional rules like Injury rules and similar!
9. It has a Campaign Mode!: If you know how Necromunda and Mordheim are like when in Campaign mode, then you know what this is all about - Build your team through battles, upgrade their gear, give them new team mates, by base upgrades and Battle Honours to furhter hone their skills. It's not just a game of upgrading though, as you have to mind your model count, buy new recruits and exploit your enemies weaknesses, or you will be left in the dust by players far stronger than you
Sounds pretty cool. Which version(s) of 40k is Heralds of Ruin compatible with? I'm completely done buying 40k rulebooks and didn't buy the current edition. However, like most former 40k players I have alot of old codices, rulebooks and figures. If I can use earlier editions it'd be something I might try. If it's made for the current edition than it becomes a $100+ game.
Yeah, well... 7th Ed. All their armu lists are always updated to the newest edtion, and I'm pretty sure you can't get the older versions easily. I can help you get the basics about the game as it is now, if you want, though.
I find that the HoR version worked fine with 6th, as well, you just don't slot in the new psychic rules and forget using the random cards objectives because the boards are too big.
I do find, though, that the Inquisition army list can be a bit broken if you have a lot of terrain to hide in. Assassin, Priests and Crusaders can be brutal in a skirmish game. I was never on the receiving end so it wasn't *my* problem, but I could tell after a few games that it was always at the same point that the opponent stopped enjoying it. So I toned it down a bit.
Along the Kill Team line there is also One Page Rules's version of Kill Team. It's most certainly not as cinematic as the HoR set. However, the rules are free and don't require referencing other rule books. Since it's free, it's definitely worth a look.
The other thing you could do it revisit the old "Combat Patrol" setup from 4th edition.
Basically, it was a cleaned-up version of the even older "40K in 40 Minutes" rules, where it basically boiled down to:
-Remove the Force Organization requirements (two troops, one HQ)
-No models with more than 2 wounds
-No armor saves better than 3+
-The combines armor value of the front and both sides of a vehicle cannot exceed 13.
I think there were a couple others, but that was the gist of it. It made for really fun little games of 40K, where it was basically impossible to take anything that can break the game at that level. Unfortunately, that was before everybody and their brother got a crazy USR (back in 4th there was about 20 USR's total and most had already existed since 3rd in individual army codex books), so some of those might have bumped even units that you can get into a 500pt force into the overpowered territory. I don't know as I have not played games of 6th or 7th.
But Kill Team in any edition since it came out is a good way to go, too. Also, two good friends using the 2nd edition battle bible and basically removing squad cohesion and just buying individual models for their points cost (so your force could be a character in terminator armor, three tactical marines and two assault marines) gives you the gameplay of Necromunda with the wider 40K races.
Edit: Wow. I just checked out the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules, and those are top notch. I have had no wish to play games with 7th edition rules, but I would seriously think about getting the main rulebook, it's just a bummer you need the codex for each force just for certain information. It would be great if all you needed was a mini-rulebook and the free rules.
I've been having a lot of fun with Infinity and Warmachine recently; neither are really that similar to 40k, Warmachine has model synergy and strange interactions up the wazoo with a larger selection of things your smaller pool of models can do and closer-ranged more manoeuvre-intensive combat, Infinity is very small-scale and the turn structure is arranged like nothing else in the world (in Warhammer you can't get tabled on your turn). Both are fairly dark but not quite so GRIMDARK as 40k, both have much cleaner and better-written rules, and both are quick to play and work well at small model counts. Infinity's got the advantage of a lot of the rules coming free online (not all of them, you need the rulebook for some), in Warmachine you only need the core book (or the small-scale core book from the starter box) to properly start playing since the rules for every model actually come with the model.
Using FFG's 40kRPG rules as a base might also work well.
However, I'm thinking both Inquisitor and FFG's games will have a bit more detail and be just as overwhelming and not quite what the OP is looking for. If someone else wants less models, but more detail, it may be an avenue worth pursuing.
frozenwastes wrote: Using FFG's 40kRPG rules as a base might also work well.
However, I'm thinking both Inquisitor and FFG's games will have a bit more detail and be just as overwhelming and not quite what the OP is looking for. If someone else wants less models, but more detail, it may be an avenue worth pursuing.
Yeah, INQ is really a figure-based RPG. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's what the OP is going for.
Yeah, much more involved than 40K, if 40K is already being deemed too complicated. The game is fun in it's own way, but is definitely not for pick up and play games like 40K.
*Sigh* I just wish I didn't have to buy all the codexes for my forces again to use those cool HoR Kill Team rules. Three editions of codexes for the armies I play is enough, I'm afraid. I don't have the 7th edition books for any army, and I really don't want to pay their high prices just for access to the weapon stats and some special rules definitions, even if some forces like Deathwatch and Vanilla marines can share a codex.
Maybe I'll have to use the HoR rules as an adaptation for use with earlier edition rules/codexes, because I really like their leader/core/special framework approach towards force composition, which would work with every edition I can think of(even 2nd), with just some points value increases and most of the friggin' plethora of USR rules being dropped.
It's wierd. I hate the USR explosion of normal 40K, but in a game where a force only has a handful of models, the depth is quite nice. But man, I hate the idea of spending $40 just to I can reference what that Tactical Marine's "Born on a Tuesday under the sign of Cernunnos" ability does when i just want to shoot that Ork cowering in the ruins.
AegisGrimm wrote:Maybe I'll have to use the HoR rules as an adaptation for use with earlier edition rules/codexes, because I really like their leader/core/special framework approach towards force composition, which would work with every edition I can think of(even 2nd), with just some points value increases and most of the friggin' plethora of USR rules being dropped.
I think you should be able to adapt it to the old versions just fine.
It's wierd. I hate the USR explosion of normal 40K, but in a game where a force only has a handful of models, the depth is quite nice. But man, I hate the idea of spending $40 just to I can reference what that Tactical Marine's "Born on a Tuesday under the sign of Cernunnos" ability does when i just want to shoot that Ork cowering in the ruins.
*Whining mode-off*
You could always just go forum hunting. I'm sure somewhere someone has outlined what they think of the rules and given enough information to figure out what it does.
Here's a general tactics thread on Blood Angels that I'm sure has a surprising amount of information as people talk back and forth about what's better and how things work. There's probably something similar somewhere for most of the new codexes that have come out.
Combat Patrol is a version of 40K that uses 400 points. Relax the Force Org Chart and possibly minimum unit sizes and you can play 40K with fewer points. Enjoy it for the fun of it. The game will play differently, but should be greatly enjoyable as a short game.
Combat Patrol was(is) a really fun way to be able to still play some games while you are building a new army, or just plain want to have faster games without the most powerful units in attendance.
AegisGrimm wrote: *Sigh* I just wish I didn't have to buy all the codexes for my forces again to use those cool HoR Kill Team rules. Three editions of codexes for the armies I play is enough, I'm afraid.
HoR have army lists and everything. I wouldn't even open the BRB if I were playing HoR Kill Team. Everything is pretty much there.
I do not have the 7th ed rulebook- does it at least have all the USR's and/or most of the weapon profiles in it? I assumed that you need the codexes in addition to the HOR lists because while the HoR material has troops costs and profiles, you need the codex books for referencing weapon stats and army-specific USR's. I'm pretty green when it comes to 7th ed- the last print edition I owned and played games with was the tail end of 4th, so I am not up on all the rules that exploded since then.
I am more familiar with the days of a whole whopping 20 USR's and 3-shot starcannons, lol.
None of the documents seem to explain either USRs or army specific special rules. For example, if I look at a Grey Hunter in the Space Wolves document, it has
And They Shall Know No Fear
Acute Senses
Counter-attack
But no where do I find a description of them, so I assume they're in the codex.
wikkedj wrote: Hi guys,
Recently my wife said that she's kinda not digging 40k because of the larger scale and found it a little overwhelming. Are there any games similar to 40k but on a smaller scale?
You could always use the weapon profiles from the little 6th Ed. books for HoR, because those haven't really changed. USRs have remained pretty stable too.
Infinity, Antares, and that version of Kill Team are all free to download and try.
Do a read through of the rules and see what you like. Antares is pretty much an updated version of Bolt Action, Kill Team is mainly the 40k rules. Infinity has a simultaneous action thing going on.
Fubar and the One Page rules are also free. As well as that Warengine game and a million others. When a friend of mine and I were first getting sick of 40k we did a series of games with free rules from the net. Same forces, same terrain, different rules, swapping sides and replaying the battle so we got to play both sides (Chaos Marines vs Guard). It was great fun.
Infinity, Antares, and that version of Kill Team are all free to download and try.
Do a read through of the rules and see what you like. Antares is pretty much an updated version of Bolt Action, Kill Team is mainly the 40k rules. Infinity has a simultaneous action thing going on.
Sounds like Gates of Antares and Infinity would be best fits.
Infinity is awesome mechanically, but I haven't jumped in just because there are a lot of weapon stats I haven't wrapped my head around yet.
The reaction orders and action point system are incredibly intuitive. And, aside from that really really crappy YuJing box I got that one time, they do produce some beautiful white metal.
Tomorrow's War is an option. It's not for everyone though.. it doesn't do points.. doesn't do IGOUGO.. it's really involved.. but the games tend to be smaller in scope. It's also very versatile. I had been trying 5150 but man.. that book is just too hard to get through. No diagrams, no illustrations to break it up.. just solid rules and tables.
Another one that's free .. Void 1.1 http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Products/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=59 When it was still on the shelf I played a bit.. it's actually a good bit of fun. Scotia Grendel has a free download of the rules or you can buy the rulebook for pretty cheap. He's got pretty much all the models too.. but if you look at the site.. you can figure out that a lot of that stuff tranlsates to 40k models you already have. The size of the matches tends to be smaller as well.. 10-20 for a pretty full sized match. There's a new incarnation of Void as well http://www.urbanwarthegame.com/news.php I haven't tried it but the models look pretty nice.
MLaw wrote:I had been trying 5150 but man.. that book is just too hard to get through. No diagrams, no illustrations to break it up.. just solid rules and tables.
It's a good game, but the rules aren't the best way to explain how to play it. I'd recommend checking out the free Chain Reaction rules. There are diagrams in there and once you get the basics from there, reading through 5150 will make a ton more sense.
Void 1.1 is a solid game. The only reason it didn't really take hold locally was Rackham's Confrontation metal miniatures were the current new hotness at the time and Void 1.1 as a game got overlooked.
EDIT: I don't know if Scotia Grendel is hosting the points calculator, but you can get it here:
MLaw wrote:I had been trying 5150 but man.. that book is just too hard to get through. No diagrams, no illustrations to break it up.. just solid rules and tables.
It's a good game, but the rules aren't the best way to explain how to play it. I'd recommend checking out the free Chain Reaction rules. There are diagrams in there and once you get the basics from there, reading through 5150 will make a ton more sense.
Void 1.1 is a solid game. The only reason it didn't really take hold locally was Rackham's Confrontation metal miniatures were the current new hotness at the time and Void 1.1 as a game got overlooked.
EDIT: I don't know if Scotia Grendel is hosting the points calculator, but you can get it here:
The other thing that really hurt I-Kore's games was their distribution.. Back then online shopping had not evolved to where it currently is and according to my FLGS owner back then, he had to order everything either over the phone or snail mail from Scotland.
When you say "Kill Team", are you referring to the living rulebook that is regularly updated by Heralds of Ruin, or the "official" one that didn't get updated for 7th edition?
Kelly502 wrote: KILL TEAM!!! Skirmish version of Warhammer 40K.
Not warmachine, it's a terrible system, plus the miniatures are the worst looking things ever.
Terrible system?
Your credibility just went down. It may not be for you, but it's a great set of rules and a far sight more in depth and balanced than killteam.
Worst looking miniatures ever?
Yeah, this is fugly...oh wait, it's fething gorgeous. (Clearly a matter of opinion and not fact though.)
The latest darling of the forums, Infinity, still has absolutely terrible models, both active or replaced by newer sculpts.
However, for the purposes of this thread, Warmachine is still not a good recommendation because the OP wanted games like 40k but smaller, which assumes scifi.
The latest darling of the forums, Infinity, still has absolutely terrible models, both active or replaced by newer sculpts.
However, for the purposes of this thread, Warmachine is still not a good recommendation because the OP wanted games like 40k but smaller, which assumes scifi.
Let's not turn this into a warmachine good/bad thread.
Warmachine is a fine game and so is 40k. My reservation would be that the OP asked for something "like 40k". Warmachine as a game is almost as unlike 40k as you can get. This is also my reservation regarding Infinity.
However if the OP decides to look at 28mm wargames-in-general that are smaller in scope than 40k, then either game would be worthy of consideration.
Of all the different games I play the only one that intrested my wife is xwing. You don't need very many models to play and you don't need a lawyer present to explain the rules.
Warmachine isn't just not suitable for the original poster because it's not sci-fi, it's also more rules intensive and more likely be more overwhelming than 40k. I agree with Eilif that Infinity is probably also not a good fit for the same reasons.
Warmachine isn't just not suitable for the original poster because it's not sci-fi, it's also more rules intensive and more likely be more overwhelming than 40k. I agree with Eilif that Infinity is probably also not a good fit for the same reasons.
I don't mean to continue the argument.
But I have to disagree. I started 40k around the same time as Warmachine. The games have the same level of rules difficulty.
I found Warmachine easier to pick up because it wasn't full of charts and in need of two rule books to play (Rule book and Army Codex).
On the other hand, Warmachine requires a bus ton of cards to play, Markers, and card sleeves. so each have their ups and downs.
Also, some of the newer armies are very Sci-fi-esk.
Starters for Infinity are around $50, depending on faction (the two newest ones seem a bit more expensive, but are also for combined army which tends to have physically larger troops). That will probably be enough for a 100-150 point decent intro game. Expect to pay around $15 per model after for anything but the big bots, with the starter having 5-6 models and most armies aiming for an 8-15 model count on the table, depending on how you set them up and faction. Alternatively, Operation Icestorm is around $100, with a set of quickstart rules/scenarios to ease you into it, and some cardstock terrian, plus a Nomads and Pan-O starter.
Another good point of Infinity is that the rules are free to download from their website. They have an online army builder as well which is pretty useful (although note this is still for the 2nd edition rules, it's currently being updated for 3rd edition which has recently been released).
However, keep in mind the rules are incomplete right now as they have not updated the rules from the 2nd and 3rd books fully to the new format. The older pdfs are still available, but are garbage translations.
There is a lot of stuff you would likely use from this incomplete content, so just be prepared for a bit of a wait.
Warmachine isn't just not suitable for the original poster because it's not sci-fi, it's also more rules intensive and more likely be more overwhelming than 40k. I agree with Eilif that Infinity is probably also not a good fit for the same reasons.
Wait...huh? Last time I checked, Infinity was sci-fi and I don't think the rules are more intensive that 40k at all. In fact, they're much easier to understand and flow much better on the table. (No constant checking on rules that should be clear.)
Wait...huh? Last time I checked, Infinity was sci-fi and I don't think the rules are more intensive that 40k at all. In fact, they're much easier to understand and flow much better on the table. (No constant checking on rules that should be clear.)
I agree on that account, but I'm talking more about the number of game decisions and use of mechanics per model over time. It's a far more precise game where mistakes or misunderstandings of interactions can be punished severely. Malifaux is also like that. If someone were to say they felt overwhelmed by 40k, I'd probably not recommend Warmachine, Infinity, or Malifaux. There's just more meat to digest with those games compared to the relatively shallow rules of 40k.
Having given demos for a load of different games, Infinity actually doesn't come out that badly, especially if you stick to the starter set rules and basic mechanics.
Because there is that much less abstraction, it's pretty easy for someone with no wargaming experience, but who is almost certainly seen action movies or played FPS games, to relate to what is happening to the miniature on the table. "My guy is getting shot at, I want to duck behind the wall" "My sniper is going to wait for the medic to get to the wounded guy before he shoots again". The rules have another depth that they allow this kind of individual action, as long as the person giving the demo can describe what is happening in narrative terms. As for the face-to-face rolls, quite often held up as a stumbling block, I simply describe that as 'Blackjack/Pontoon, get as close to your level as you can without going bust' and people pick it up instantly.
Infinity has a tremendous amount of tactical depth and also complexity, but for the most part it's intuitive. And, like learning anything, you just have to walk before you can run and follow the recommended path of starter set rules before you start introducing the likes of camo and hacking.
Kill team using earlier editions of 40K (to limit or remove the USR's which is great way to confuse non-hardcore gamers) is still a great way to game.
In my home games, I plan on using the lists from HoR as a guide for force composition (I really like the Leader/Core/Special idea to limit the more powerful troops in a force), but using the rules and appropriate army entries/stats from 4th edition 40K and the appropriate codex books. So for instance: goodbye Centurions, hello Space Wolves 13th Company and actual honest Wulfen models.
Since 'sci-fi' meant 'ships and laser guns'. It turns out the difference between sci-fi and fantasy is bizzare and hard to define when stuff gets into the overlap
Yeah, and frankly, don't bother getting into that argument about genre, it's tired and old, and no one bothers with any in depth classifications in conversation anyway, even the people who get butt hurt about it.
You could go another way and see if she would be interested in some board games like Settlers of Catan or Secret Mission Risk. Playable in 1-2 hours, simple rules, and everything you need is in the box.
Cleatus wrote: You could go another way and see if she would be interested in some board games like Settlers of Catan or Secret Mission Risk. Playable in 1-2 hours, simple rules, and everything you need is in the box.
If going that route, you can try many other awesome games.
Such as:
Talisman
Decent
Super Dungeon Explore!
Risk Legacy
I am actually just getting into Super Dungeon Explore!. It's sort of a cross of a video game with model making/collecting. With 'expansion' packs that give random bad guys and Heroes you can paint a build.
Games can take less then an hour if you play a small dungeon.
Decent (1st Edition) - Is a token heavy, D&D Light, Dungeon delving game. Quite a lot of fun in my opinion. I haven't played 2nd Ed. but I am eying the conversion kit. (and I hear rumors of a 3rd ed. coming soon?)
Risk legacy is also another fun game if you like Risk. It combines the "achievements" idea into the game, where things change and new things appear. It can be a little rules wonky, as new things are introduced, but if you have a good gaming group, it can be a lot of fun.
Since 'sci-fi' meant 'ships and laser guns'. It turns out the difference between sci-fi and fantasy is bizzare and hard to define when stuff gets into the overlap
If it helps, I use the term Sci-Fantasy for things like 40k and other settings where magic and close combat happen often in the future.
I'm not picky though and I don't see any value in correcting folks when they use the term Sci-fi for anything that happens to have lasers.
Mantic's Warpath is similar in style to 40K, but a much cleaner, streamlined system (and was designed by 40K 5E's Alessio Cavatore).
40K factions map onto Warpath factions decently, though some flash back to early 40K and others cross over from WHFB - Corporation (IoM as bad guys), Enforcers (Space Marines), Marauders (Orks), Forge Fathers (Squats), and Veer-myn (Skaven), with as-yet-unstated Rebs (read like Human Tau), Z'zor (Tyrannids), and Asterians (Eldar).
Much of what people think of as "Hard" Sci-Fi really isn't.
Traveller, once seen as the hardest of Sci-Fi settings turns out to have much that is fantasy.
Space Combat, and even Land Combat with weapons such as Lasers, or Plasma/Fusion weapons turn out to not change combat that much.
And for Space Combat, it turns out that it will need to occur at ranges pretty much typical for regular land and naval combat (a few miles, to 100 miles for larger tactical weapons such as cruise missiles.
There are some (Ad Astra) who have begun to suss out the various aspects of Space Combat (such that unaided, it is very hard to hide in space, and requiring dedicated technologies that would occupy more space and energy than the actual weapons.
Turns out that Ron Moore, for the new BSG pretty much got things correct, and that Space Combat would mostly entail large massively armored ships (with 20m - 100m of belt armor) throwing large yield weapons at each other at ranges of between 5 and 20 miles, or 10 - 50 km (if you look at the combat scenes, given the scales of the ships - approximately 2km long - you can then freeze the frame and measure the ranges, as well as the velocity of the projectiles traveling between the ships).
Anyway... Be nice to see some large model ships that could be used to model this kind of space combat.
Turns out that Ron Moore, for the new BSG pretty much got things correct, and that Space Combat would mostly entail large massively armored ships (with 20m - 100m of belt armor) throwing large yield weapons at each other at ranges of between 5 and 20 miles, or 10 - 50 km (if you look at the combat scenes, given the scales of the ships - approximately 2km long - you can then freeze the frame and measure the ranges, as well as the velocity of the projectiles traveling between the ships).
I'm not totally convinced. I think the Honor Harrington style of space combat is probably one of the most realistic we've seen. Still lots of armor, but hundreds of miles apart, lots of missiles and Anti-Missile systems. Of course you couldn't pay me to to play Sanganami Combat Simulator, I'd much rather play BSG or Full Thrust or some softer version of space combat.
Turns out that Ron Moore, for the new BSG pretty much got things correct, and that Space Combat would mostly entail large massively armored ships (with 20m - 100m of belt armor) throwing large yield weapons at each other at ranges of between 5 and 20 miles, or 10 - 50 km (if you look at the combat scenes, given the scales of the ships - approximately 2km long - you can then freeze the frame and measure the ranges, as well as the velocity of the projectiles traveling between the ships).
I'm not totally convinced. I think the Honor Harrington style of space combat is probably one of the most realistic we've seen. Still lots of armor, but hundreds of miles apart, lots of missiles and Anti-Missile systems. Of course you couldn't pay me to to play Sanganami Combat Simulator, I'd much rather play BSG or Full Thrust or some softer version of space combat.
There's a website, Atomic Rockets http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewarintro.php that goes into space combat in the most 'realist' way. (aka. the most probable.) It's a fantastic site full of all kinds of information about space travel and ship design.
Thought I'd ask here instead of posting a new thread.
What would you dudes recommend for someone who:
Likes 40k (models and fluff)
Doesn't mind throwing buckets of dice
Hates tonka truck/ tank battles (that aren't 15mm and smaller scale)
Doesn't like each model having its own rules (a la Kill team)
Essentially squad based skirmishes with minimal to no vehicles.
Would low points 40k games work okay? I'm...uhh, asking for a friend. I still haven't tested BtGoA.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Err uh my FRIEND hasn't...
You could try using rules for another system; Warpath, Gates of Antares, or even Tomorrow's War if you want 'realistic' style of rules. You can get rules for the first two for free so easy to try, and TW isn't expensive.
I'd recommend checking out the free Chain Reaction rules. There are diagrams in there and once you get the basics from there, reading through 5150 will make a ton more sense.
