I'm meaning the pintle mounted ones. What's the point? A marine could easily hold a stormbolter and not be restricted by the pintle mount. A marine could hold two bolters, one in each hand and fire in different directions. IG I understand, they're puny humans, but marines use a bolter as their standard weapon. It would be like IG using twin-linked lasguns on their vehicles, surely the marines can do better? They should have either a heavy weapon like an assault cannon or something different like an "auto-bolter" which would be a bolter with a much superior fire rate to the stormbolter.
It just seems silly having such a comparatively weak weapon as the standard armament, particularly when the main top hatch can be raised allowing the passengers to fire from cover.
So basically, you want a Razorback? Or a Predator? Or any other Space Marine vehicle other than the stock rhino?
The basic Rhino may use a stormbolter, but dishing out damage isn't its job. It's a troop carrier. Bigger weapons is for every other single use of the Rhino chassis, which the Space Marines just love for some reason.
I'm sorry if I sound rude, but have you looked at the other vehicles?
1) from my understanding, only Terminators are capable of using stormbolters; the kick is too great for a regular marine
2) it's a defensive weapon, not offensive. It's meant to keep enemy infantry from assaulting and meltabombing the vehicle, or giving covering fire for disembarking marines or clearing a path for the rhino to charge through. The standard rhino is a "battle taxi", not an assault vehicle.
However, it would be interesting to see a rhino equipped with sponsons carrying heavy bolters or flamers.
Stormonu wrote: 1) from my understanding, only Terminators are capable of using stormbolters; the kick is too great for a regular marine
2) it's a defensive weapon, not offensive. It's meant to keep enemy infantry from assaulting and meltabombing the vehicle, or giving covering fire for disembarking marines or clearing a path for the rhino to charge through. The standard rhino is a "battle taxi", not an assault vehicle.
However, it would be interesting to see a rhino equipped with sponsons carrying heavy bolters or flamers.
Stormonu wrote: 1) from my understanding, only Terminators are capable of using stormbolters; the kick is too great for a regular marine
2) it's a defensive weapon, not offensive. It's meant to keep enemy infantry from assaulting and meltabombing the vehicle, or giving covering fire for disembarking marines or clearing a path for the rhino to charge through. The standard rhino is a "battle taxi", not an assault vehicle.
However, it would be interesting to see a rhino equipped with sponsons carrying heavy bolters or flamers.
1.If I understand correctly, they can use it, but the recoil, total weight, etc just makes it impractical most of the time.
2. Bastard child of a normal Rhino and a Predator? Capacity of a Razorback, made for keeping everyone away from the passengers using 2 sponsons and the pintle mounts? That does sound interesting.
Yes, regular tacs can use stormbolters, they just can't do so relentlessly (shhh). It's a two-handed vs. one-handed kind of thing.
Anyways, to the OP, what's wrong with a pintle super-small arm? Pintling will make any gun easier to shoot when it's on a vehicle, and not all vehicle mounted weapons are as large as they can possibly be and still fit on the turret. I mean, why does the humvee have lugs for only a .50 cal machine gun when they could have a pintle 20mm cannon, or pintle 25-pounder?
One factor could be ammunition space. Storm bolter rounds are small and might even be interchangeable with the squad's own ammunition. So it gives the Rhino a basic ability to shoot back without spending much of its valuable transport space. HB/AC/etc ammunition would take up more interior space, and pretty soon you've got a Razorback with an inferior gun mount.
Keep in mind that Stormbolters aren't actually very "small" weapons. A Stormbolter is essentially an LMG, which is pretty damn big and lethal respectively.
Razorbacks are twin linked weapon carriers and the heavy weapon they use is much larger than the infantry version suggesting a much larger calibre, more powerful weapon, something not represented in game mechanics. I'm talking about an infantry sized heavy weapon of single type or a rapid firing version of a bolter.
The basic Rhino may use a stormbolter, but dishing out damage isn't its job.
Exactly, it's prime use is a troop transport, so why limit its defence to the equivalent of two small-arms?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ailaros wrote: what's wrong with a pintle super-small arm? Pintling will make any gun easier to shoot when it's on a vehicle, and not all vehicle mounted weapons are as large as they can possibly be and still fit on the turret. I mean, why does the humvee have lugs for only a .50 cal machine gun when they could have a pintle 20mm cannon, or pintle 25-pounder?
A space marine doesn't need the advantage of a vehicle mount to shoot accurately while moving but my point was also why bother with a weapon that the average marine on board is already carrying? As for the humvee, the average squad member does not carry a .50 cal weapon so such a weapon on a vehicle provides considerable support firepower, the same cannot be said if the rhino is armed with a basic stormbolter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, looking at the replies, mu current thinking is these possibilities.
Stormbolter is heavier version than the type carried by infantry.
Pintle is a safeguard to the weapon being lost overboard.
Appreciate the point about bolters being equivalent of human LMGs or similar, though I go back to my point about redundancy in that bolters are a common weapon - vehicle should take opportunity to provide heavier support.
I think "in real life" the weapons on the back of a razorback would be terrifyingly more powerful than is currently thought of.
Given that the squad inside has a mission to carry out, I don't think they'd be sharing the resources needed to complete the mission with the vehicle weapon. I assume there is enough space in a rhino to carry sufficient ammo for the mission.
I would think that a true scale rhino compared to the figures would be the size of a land raider and a land raider would be the size of a bane blade. That gives plenty of space for ammo for the vehicle weapon.
The original rhinos were all-terrain explorer vehicles. They would have contained large food and medical supplies plus sleeping areas. The current rhino is too small for such a thing as it's only about the size of a modern apc.
morganfreeman wrote: Keep in mind that Stormbolters aren't actually very "small" weapons. A Stormbolter is essentially an LMG, which is pretty damn big and lethal respectively.
This is the key part. SB may be 'small arms' by Marine standards, it is still spits out a few hundred self-propelled, mass-reactive shells a minute, each one enough to cripple or kill your basic humanoid. If more firepower is needed, the Marines inside will be carrying heavier weapons, but for its main purpose, the Storm Bolter is still a pretty fearsome weapon.
A more relevant question would be, for a point defence weapon against getting mobbed by infantry, why the heck can the pintle storm bolter not be used to fire Overwatch?!
The stormbolter on the pintle mount has a bigger magazine then using "just a bolter". Additionally it has a higher rate of fire.
For self defence totally adequate.
Computron wrote:A space marine doesn't need the advantage of a vehicle mount to shoot accurately while moving
Umm, what?
On the one hand, a pintle will still help them. Unless space marines and rhinos are both made of gyroscopes. On the other, a space marine doesn't need the advantage of armor either, given how tough their black carapace is, but that doesn't mean that space marines should run around naked.
Ailaros wrote: Yes, regular tacs can use stormbolters, they just can't do so relentlessly (shhh). It's a two-handed vs. one-handed kind of thing.
Anyways, to the OP, what's wrong with a pintle super-small arm? Pintling will make any gun easier to shoot when it's on a vehicle, and not all vehicle mounted weapons are as large as they can possibly be and still fit on the turret. I mean, why does the humvee have lugs for only a .50 cal machine gun when they could have a pintle 20mm cannon, or pintle 25-pounder?
Humvees routinely carry a 40mm grenade launcher or TOW launcher. And no sane person would argue that the Ma Duece is operable and portable by one man, which it would have to be for the storm bolter comparison to be valid. To be a direct equivalence you would have to have an M249 in the turret, which is never done. A M240 is occasionally seen, but not often, and technically that is a two man weapon and if you've ever had to heave one around, you can appreciate why.
The pintle mount should be heavier, probably a heavy bolter. But it isn't, and that won't ever change, likely. Not that anybody really cares about heavy bolters.
Computron wrote: I'm meaning the pintle mounted ones. What's the point? A marine could easily hold a stormbolter and not be restricted by the pintle mount. A marine could hold two bolters, one in each hand and fire in different directions. IG I understand, they're puny humans, but marines use a bolter as their standard weapon. It would be like IG using twin-linked lasguns on their vehicles, surely the marines can do better? They should have either a heavy weapon like an assault cannon or something different like an "auto-bolter" which would be a bolter with a much superior fire rate to the stormbolter.
It just seems silly having such a comparatively weak weapon as the standard armament, particularly when the main top hatch can be raised allowing the passengers to fire from cover.
Same reason we have .50 cals on our tanks today. The reason why it isn't a Heavy Bolter or assault cannon is because it would make Razorbacks near pointless. In the fluff, bolters are pretty damn powerful weapons that can tear apart most enemies with ease. Hell, a heavy stubber is a .50 cal in 40k, so you can kind of see the difference.
Stormonu wrote: 1) from my understanding, only Terminators are capable of using stormbolters; the kick is too great for a regular marine
2) it's a defensive weapon, not offensive. It's meant to keep enemy infantry from assaulting and meltabombing the vehicle, or giving covering fire for disembarking marines or clearing a path for the rhino to charge through. The standard rhino is a "battle taxi", not an assault vehicle.
However, it would be interesting to see a rhino equipped with sponsons carrying heavy bolters or flamers.
Silverthorne wrote:Humvees routinely carry a 40mm grenade launcher or TOW launcher.
Yes, but that doesn't address my point. The argument that pintle weapons should be bigger can be countered by the argument that you don't always want the biggest gun possible. As demonstrated by the fact that most humvees come with a 50-cal, not, say, a minuteman missile.
Does the fact that a humvee can have a missile launcher mean the rhino necessarily should?
Silverthorne wrote:And no sane person would argue that the Ma Duece is operable and portable by one man, which it would have to be for the storm bolter comparison to be valid.
A sane person could call an M2 a "super small arm".
And it's not required for a valid comparison. We're talking about guns that are more stable on a truck, not less stable in someone's hands.
Silverthorne wrote: To be a direct equivalence you would have to have an M249 in the turret, which is never done.
But you could fit an SAW in there. In any case, pintling makes any gun better for shooting from a moving vehicle. It doesn't matter if you have a big gun or a small gun, you're going to want to try and brace it on the vehicle if you can.
NauticalKendall wrote: Did everyone forget about those Grey Knight close combat guys that have the a storm bolter mounted to their wrists?
We're trying to, yes. If we pretend Mat Ward's fluff doesn't exist, then the revamp of the models won't be based on it either.
Computron wrote:A space marine doesn't need the advantage of a vehicle mount to shoot accurately while moving
Umm, what?
On the one hand, a pintle will still help them. Unless space marines and rhinos are both made of gyroscopes. On the other, a space marine doesn't need the advantage of armor either, given how tough their black carapace is, but that doesn't mean that space marines should run around naked.
Armour is def for extra protection, my point about the firing accurately while being bounced around over terrain is that they should be able to do this. My take on marines is that they are "movie" marines and can do all sorts of wild and wonderful stuff.
Computron wrote: I'm meaning the pintle mounted ones. What's the point? A marine could easily hold a stormbolter and not be restricted by the pintle mount. A marine could hold two bolters, one in each hand and fire in different directions. IG I understand, they're puny humans, but marines use a bolter as their standard weapon. It would be like IG using twin-linked lasguns on their vehicles, surely the marines can do better? They should have either a heavy weapon like an assault cannon or something different like an "auto-bolter" which would be a bolter with a much superior fire rate to the stormbolter.
It just seems silly having such a comparatively weak weapon as the standard armament, particularly when the main top hatch can be raised allowing the passengers to fire from cover.
Same reason we have .50 cals on our tanks today. The reason why it isn't a Heavy Bolter or assault cannon is because it would make Razorbacks near pointless. In the fluff, bolters are pretty damn powerful weapons that can tear apart most enemies with ease. Hell, a heavy stubber is a .50 cal in 40k, so you can kind of see the difference.
I don't see where it would make Razorbacks pointless. The razorback would still have a big, twin-linked turret gun in addition to its pintle gun. At present, all Rhino chassis tanks can take a pintle mounted storm bolter, so just make it that they can have whatever pintle weapons a rhino gets. That way even if you buff the Rhino, they still will always be outgunned by Razorbacks, Predators, etc.
I thought they use a storm bolter on rhino because storm bolter has an independent ammo box, whereas Razorback is said to have modified its interior for ammo capacity. So basically Rhino makes no sacrfice in cargo capacity for ammo by taking just a single Storm bolter, and it's easy just install a bigger version of infantry bolter than say, an autocannon which would require a relatively larger munition compartment due to its rate of fire.
lcmiracle wrote: I thought they use a storm bolter on rhino because storm bolter has an independent ammo box, whereas Razorback is said to have modified its interior for ammo capacity. So basically Rhino makes no sacrfice in cargo capacity for ammo by taking just a single Storm bolter, and it's easy just install a bigger version of infantry bolter than say, an autocannon which would require a relatively larger munition compartment due to its rate of fire.
An Assault Cannon has an ammo can carried seperately by the Terminator using it. No reason they cant strap one up on top of a rhino... just saying
lcmiracle wrote: I thought they use a storm bolter on rhino because storm bolter has an independent ammo box, whereas Razorback is said to have modified its interior for ammo capacity. So basically Rhino makes no sacrfice in cargo capacity for ammo by taking just a single Storm bolter, and it's easy just install a bigger version of infantry bolter than say, an autocannon which would require a relatively larger munition compartment due to its rate of fire.
An Assault Cannon has an ammo can carried seperately by the Terminator using it. No reason they cant strap one up on top of a rhino... just saying
Well according to Lexicanum the Assault Cannon has a few drawbacks which I found detrimental in installing it on what essentially is a transport vehicle.
Although it lacks the range of the autocannon and many other heavy weapons, the assault cannon is a fearsome weapon when used in the close range role it was designed for. The weapon is prone to overheating and jams due to its high rate of fire - the number of rounds fired per second are counted in the hundreds.
I mean I get that on TT I may drive the rhino into melee-tempting range, but I'd say in the fluff they'll usually try keep the rhino out of range of enemy heavy weapons. So a short range crowd control weapon is rather useless.
Jamming aside, the barrels of Assault cannon also requires replacement after every engagement.
Due to the high rate of wear on the barrels, the barrels are replaced after every mission. Motor and barrel failure are common problems with the assault cannon, making the weapon prone to jamming during sustained bursts.
So it'd be expensive to use them on some of the most common vehicles in the Chapter.
NauticalKendall wrote: Did everyone forget about those Grey Knight close combat guys that have the a storm bolter mounted to their wrists?
We're trying to, yes. If we pretend Mat Ward's fluff doesn't exist, then the revamp of the models won't be based on it either.
...You're aware the models came with Stormbolters orginally? All the way back in 3rd EDITION?
Was still a stupid switch then. They used to be mounted on their halberds back in second. Ward didn't start the death of the Grey Knights' cool factor, but her pretty much finished it.
Silverthorne wrote: Humvees routinely carry a 40mm grenade launcher or TOW launcher. And no sane person would argue that the Ma Duece is operable and portable by one man, which it would have to be for the storm bolter comparison to be valid. To be a direct equivalence you would have to have an M249 in the turret, which is never done. A M240 is occasionally seen, but not often, and technically that is a two man weapon and if you've ever had to heave one around, you can appreciate why.
BEEEPWrong!. They are not used in the majority because of the experience in Afghan since they (and M240) are not able to penetrate stuff behind clay walls effectively. Not because they are not heavy enough to be mounted. Same reason why they had Armor Piercing belts for their M2 on occasion - better penetration through light cover.
...You're aware the models came with Stormbolters orginally? All the way back in 3rd EDITION?
Was still a stupid switch then. They used to be mounted on their halberds back in second.
THAT was a cheesy retcon worthy of Ward.
When they were first released back in RT the gun was a boltgun which only had a 4" range, owing to the fact that it was strapped to a melee weapon and therefor somewhat lacking in the aiming department, and it could only fire 3 shots in the entire game owing to the fact that you can only bolt (er, unintentional pun) so much to a melee weapon without completely throwing off the balance. Proof that you can have GrimDark[TM] without completely throwing out common sense.
If you're gonna give them a full storm bolter I'd much rather see it strapped to the arm than weighing down their melee weapon.
As for why the Rhino only has a Storm Bolter.. tradition. Back when they made the original Rhino they literally stuck two of the regular marine boltguns on top - possibly they couldn't be arsed to sculpt anything else, when second edition came round they decided to combine the effect into a single storm bolter, then when 3rd edition came round they gave the model a Storm Bolter because.. that's what Rhino's have. I doubt there's ever been a fluffy reason given.
Silverthorne wrote: Humvees routinely carry a 40mm grenade launcher or TOW launcher. And no sane person would argue that the Ma Duece is operable and portable by one man, which it would have to be for the storm bolter comparison to be valid. To be a direct equivalence you would have to have an M249 in the turret, which is never done. A M240 is occasionally seen, but not often, and technically that is a two man weapon and if you've ever had to heave one around, you can appreciate why.
BEEEPWrong!. They are not used in the majority because of the experience in Afghan since they (and M240) are not able to penetrate stuff behind clay walls effectively. Not because they are not heavy enough to be mounted. Same reason why they had Armor Piercing belts for their M2 on occasion - better penetration through light cover.
BRRRTTT READING COMPREHENSION FAILURE!!!! When did I say they weren't heavy enough to be mounted? It's physically possible to mount a M249 in a turret. It's just not done... because of the exact reason you said. Go back and read what I actually said before jumping to conclusions.
This is the background thread, not the tactics. It is a good question that shows GW has no idea what they're talking about half the time.
Lascannon Razorback should take no room in transport capacity, Assault cannon razorback should also not take much room. Transport capacity really shouldn't be different, especially given how you can only fit 6 marine in a rhino anyway from a size POV.
If rhinos had a bigger gun though, they'd necessarily have to cost more points.
I think the crunch reveals the fluff in this case. Rhinos are simple vehicles meant to move Astartes from point A to point B. The payload is vastly more potent than the transport. They don't have bigger guns because the Armory doesn't want to take time away from maintaining more complex vehicles to devote to upgrading comparatively simple Rhinos.
Also, how do you know how big the power generators for the mounted lascannons or the ammo hoppers for the mounted assault cannon or heavy bolter is? Maybe the Razorback is designed to hold many more shots than a Devastator marine.
Or maybe, in the wise words of Donald P. Bellisario,
Because it's a light machinegun that uses the same ammo as the ground troops, thus allowing it to be reloaded much easier if it ever needs to be used. Ideally, Rhinos won't actually need to use the storm bolter, though.
Silverthorne wrote: It's physically possible to mount a M249 in a turret. It's just not done... because of the exact reason you said. Go back and read what I actually said before jumping to conclusions.
You said its never done, which is obviously wrong. It is/was done. And if it wasnt too weak to penetrate cover it would be used more often. As Stormbolters dont suffer this problem they get used, so your analogy is not really fitting.
A vehicle mounted weapon is always more stable then free firing. Even for Marines this will be the case. Besides, it can be remotely operated that way which reduces exposure and keeps the vehicle airtight. Also, it's just how it is.
The real question is "Why can we not assault out of a rhino anymore?". Rhinos were lightly armed because they used to at least try to drive into a place to dump their payload of marines. After that, they were able to be fire support. Now, they do good to make it that far, and you can't even assault out of them if they get there. At least CSM get havoc launchers and combibolters to give a bit of a bunch.
I know I already said it, but I feel like a lot of people aren't really grasping. The stormbolter is actually a really nasty gun fluff wise. The normal LMGs of today can mow down infantry (and pulverize light cover) light nobodies business... A stormbolter is that, with every single shell being a freaking miniature rocket. Fluff wise, it's a gun capable of mowing down mass quantities of non-marine infantry with ease and laying down a withering hale of suppressing to allow the Rhino to disgorge it's marine cargo into the heart of a foe's formation.
Yes, crunch wise it's pretty lackluster, but we're talking about fluff in this instance, not crunch. And in that case, the Stormbolter is a damned nasty weapon which is just short of actual heavy weapons (ergo what makes a razorback).
Perhaps it says so in the Codex Astartes, or possibly only the MkIc Deimos Pattern Rhino has a universal mount? 30k Rhinos are able to carry a much wider array of pintle weapons.
You question imperial rhino design? You think you can do better? Clearly, you want something a bit more for your transport...something like a...havok launcher, for example? And a couple of spikes for your power armor?
Welcome, my friend! We've got cookies.
Pentagon Wars, an HBO movie from '98. It's a great illustration of how the design process can go awry when you start having the "why not just add..." conversation. The rhino always struck me as a most practical vehicle compared to a lot of other 40k tanks (and not surprising, since it's clearly inspired by the M113 and other similar APCs). The fluff described a Storm Bolter as being similar in function and performance to something like an LMG, so it seems perfectly at home as a little pintle-mounted weapon. Being small and sharing ammunition with the embarked squad's weapon are very attractive features - it means you don't significantly increase the rhino's profile, or use up much of it's internal volume. Once you start bolting on heavy weapons, you need to start carrying ammunition (or reactors/power cells), you need to build up supporting structures for it, add a turret, weight, etc. It's odd that this thread has come up, because we DO have a hybrid vehicle in the fluff - the Razorback, which has a big damn gun on top, but can't carry as many troops, and doesn't have a lot of armor. Similar to the Bradley (which, incidentally, has proven itself to be a lot more useful of a vehicle than the impression that the movie gives you).
Ailaros wrote: Yes, regular tacs can use stormbolters, they just can't do so relentlessly (shhh). It's a two-handed vs. one-handed kind of thing.
Anyways, to the OP, what's wrong with a pintle super-small arm? Pintling will make any gun easier to shoot when it's on a vehicle, and not all vehicle mounted weapons are as large as they can possibly be and still fit on the turret. I mean, why does the humvee have lugs for only a .50 cal machine gun when they could have a pintle 20mm cannon, or pintle 25-pounder?
lcmiracle wrote: I thought they use a storm bolter on rhino because storm bolter has an independent ammo box, whereas Razorback is said to have modified its interior for ammo capacity. So basically Rhino makes no sacrfice in cargo capacity for ammo by taking just a single Storm bolter, and it's easy just install a bigger version of infantry bolter than say, an autocannon which would require a relatively larger munition compartment due to its rate of fire.
An Assault Cannon has an ammo can carried seperately by the Terminator using it. No reason they cant strap one up on top of a rhino... just saying
You realize that terminators are usually sent in to Quickly feth up the baddies in things like ships and spess hulks or what nots and generally not stay long enough to have to keep reloading that mini magazines, while a razorback could hang out for a fairly long time without needed reloading. (same with the other variants)
Pentagon Wars, an HBO movie from '98. It's a great illustration of how the design process can go awry when you start having the "why not just add..." conversation. The rhino always struck me as a most practical vehicle compared to a lot of other 40k tanks (and not surprising, since it's clearly inspired by the M113 and other similar APCs). The fluff described a Storm Bolter as being similar in function and performance to something like an LMG, so it seems perfectly at home as a little pintle-mounted weapon. Being small and sharing ammunition with the embarked squad's weapon are very attractive features - it means you don't significantly increase the rhino's profile, or use up much of it's internal volume. Once you start bolting on heavy weapons, you need to start carrying ammunition (or reactors/power cells), you need to build up supporting structures for it, add a turret, weight, etc. It's odd that this thread has come up, because we DO have a hybrid vehicle in the fluff - the Razorback, which has a big damn gun on top, but can't carry as many troops, and doesn't have a lot of armor. Similar to the Bradley (which, incidentally, has proven itself to be a lot more useful of a vehicle than the impression that the movie gives you).
Pentagon Wars, an HBO movie from '98. It's a great illustration of how the design process can go awry when you start having the "why not just add..." conversation. The rhino always struck me as a most practical vehicle compared to a lot of other 40k tanks (and not surprising, since it's clearly inspired by the M113 and other similar APCs). The fluff described a Storm Bolter as being similar in function and performance to something like an LMG, so it seems perfectly at home as a little pintle-mounted weapon. Being small and sharing ammunition with the embarked squad's weapon are very attractive features - it means you don't significantly increase the rhino's profile, or use up much of it's internal volume. Once you start bolting on heavy weapons, you need to start carrying ammunition (or reactors/power cells), you need to build up supporting structures for it, add a turret, weight, etc. It's odd that this thread has come up, because we DO have a hybrid vehicle in the fluff - the Razorback, which has a big damn gun on top, but can't carry as many troops, and doesn't have a lot of armor. Similar to the Bradley (which, incidentally, has proven itself to be a lot more useful of a vehicle than the impression that the movie gives you).
Bradley is a damn fine vehicle.
If you like riding around in bait that dies to a light breeze that can't even transport your full squad, then sure.
Bradley's are fantastic for smacking up impoverished terrorists, but it's gonna fold if it ever is used in an actual war in the likes of WWII. Bloody thing is made of aluminum and gets gutted by RPG's.
I think the better question is why do people use storm bolters compared to combi-bolters? Is the Imperium so backwards they don't remember how to stick two guns together?
Wyzilla wrote: I think the better question is why do people use storm bolters compared to combi-bolters? Is the Imperium so backwards they don't remember how to stick two guns together?
Stormbolters are probably more refined given that they are purpose built to fire two different mechanisms at once. I am not sure what this means. Most likely Stormbolters either fire quicker or jam a lot less than the Combi weapons do.
Wyzilla wrote: I think the better question is why do people use storm bolters compared to combi-bolters? Is the Imperium so backwards they don't remember how to stick two guns together?
Stormbolters are probably more refined given that they are purpose built to fire two different mechanisms at once. I am not sure what this means. Most likely Stormbolters either fire quicker or jam a lot less than the Combi weapons do.
Having played Space Hulk, I doubt anything besides a SAIGA could jam faster then a Stormbolter.
Pentagon Wars, an HBO movie from '98. It's a great illustration of how the design process can go awry when you start having the "why not just add..." conversation. The rhino always struck me as a most practical vehicle compared to a lot of other 40k tanks (and not surprising, since it's clearly inspired by the M113 and other similar APCs). The fluff described a Storm Bolter as being similar in function and performance to something like an LMG, so it seems perfectly at home as a little pintle-mounted weapon. Being small and sharing ammunition with the embarked squad's weapon are very attractive features - it means you don't significantly increase the rhino's profile, or use up much of it's internal volume. Once you start bolting on heavy weapons, you need to start carrying ammunition (or reactors/power cells), you need to build up supporting structures for it, add a turret, weight, etc. It's odd that this thread has come up, because we DO have a hybrid vehicle in the fluff - the Razorback, which has a big damn gun on top, but can't carry as many troops, and doesn't have a lot of armor. Similar to the Bradley (which, incidentally, has proven itself to be a lot more useful of a vehicle than the impression that the movie gives you).
Bradley is a damn fine vehicle.
If you like riding around in bait that dies to a light breeze that can't even transport your full squad, then sure.
Bradley's are fantastic for smacking up impoverished terrorists, but it's gonna fold if it ever is used in an actual war in the likes of WWII. Bloody thing is made of aluminum and gets gutted by RPG's.
It provides much more protection that a Humvee and it brings real firepower, anti air support, and troop transport. It's not a main battle tank but I'd prefer to be in a Bradley over a Humvee any day. The days of tanks fighting tanks are pretty much over. No tank can take an antitank missile from an aircraft so whats the point of having super heavy tanks?
Pentagon Wars, an HBO movie from '98. It's a great illustration of how the design process can go awry when you start having the "why not just add..." conversation. The rhino always struck me as a most practical vehicle compared to a lot of other 40k tanks (and not surprising, since it's clearly inspired by the M113 and other similar APCs). The fluff described a Storm Bolter as being similar in function and performance to something like an LMG, so it seems perfectly at home as a little pintle-mounted weapon. Being small and sharing ammunition with the embarked squad's weapon are very attractive features - it means you don't significantly increase the rhino's profile, or use up much of it's internal volume. Once you start bolting on heavy weapons, you need to start carrying ammunition (or reactors/power cells), you need to build up supporting structures for it, add a turret, weight, etc. It's odd that this thread has come up, because we DO have a hybrid vehicle in the fluff - the Razorback, which has a big damn gun on top, but can't carry as many troops, and doesn't have a lot of armor. Similar to the Bradley (which, incidentally, has proven itself to be a lot more useful of a vehicle than the impression that the movie gives you).
Bradley is a damn fine vehicle.
If you like riding around in bait that dies to a light breeze that can't even transport your full squad, then sure.
Bradley's are fantastic for smacking up impoverished terrorists, but it's gonna fold if it ever is used in an actual war in the likes of WWII. Bloody thing is made of aluminum and gets gutted by RPG's.
It provides much more protection that a Humvee and it brings real firepower, anti air support, and troop transport. It's not a main battle tank but I'd prefer to be in a Bradley over a Humvee any day. The days of tanks fighting tanks are pretty much over. No tank can take an antitank missile from an aircraft so whats the point of having super heavy tanks?
Fire support like always? Tanks have ALWAYS been gutted by Aircraft from WWII onwards. The problem is that the Bradley isn't a troop transport, and its weapon loadout makes it a jucy target. Instead of going after it like a normal APC, enemies treat it like a tank. And the Bradley has such godawful armor even RPG-V7's are a credible threat against it. And it can't even transport a full squad.
Coming from the actual armored world maybe I can shed some light. Why a stormbolter? Its a heavier weapon than a simple bolter. Your standard marine is not going to lug a stormbolter through the tight hatch to shoot someone. Bolt pistol maybe, but a stomr bolter is too much work to do it. But you want your TC to be able to engage crunchies that threaten the vehicle so you place the heaviest non-heavy anti-personnel weapon you can on there. Have it mounted so it doesn't go anywhere and uses the vehicle for stability. Now the marine doesn't have to struggle and waste precious time to get a large personal weapon out of the hatch to shoot someone sneaking up to put a melta bomb on the track. Pops up, his weapon is there, he knows exactly where it is and he engages the target. Call it time efficiency. The entire purpose of this weapon is in theory, purely self defense so you wouldn't want bigger and more bulky weapons.
EDIT: Just read a few of the posts on this page- Brads are junk. They do ok in open field warfare which was their purpose, and like any armored vehicle, take away and its infantry support and its dead meat. So many ways for a dismount to kill one, even without an AT weapon if you know where the weak points are. Hell, you can pop a track with barb wire. Stupidly tall vehicle. Its not a personnel carrier however, its an infantry fighting vehicle, and in few situations would you want a full squad in one even if it could carry them. Do note, you can carry a full squad if you are creative in positioning, just don't expect a quick dismount and pray the driver doesn't do anything stupid.
NauticalKendall wrote: Did everyone forget about those Grey Knight close combat guys that have the a storm bolter mounted to their wrists?
We're trying to, yes. If we pretend Mat Ward's fluff doesn't exist, then the revamp of the models won't be based on it either.
...You're aware the models came with Stormbolters orginally? All the way back in 3rd EDITION?
Actually the original GKs did not have stormbolters in their halberds. They actually had bolts- specifically 3 bolts you had to keep track of- in the tiny bolt weapon in the halberd. It's fluff power creep. And the same is true of the rhino. What started out as bolters on rhinos has escalated to stormbolters.
Wyzilla wrote: I think the better question is why do people use storm bolters compared to combi-bolters? Is the Imperium so backwards they don't remember how to stick two guns together?
Stormbolters are probably more refined given that they are purpose built to fire two different mechanisms at once. I am not sure what this means. Most likely Stormbolters either fire quicker or jam a lot less than the Combi weapons do.
I suspect the only difference is that a stormbolter is a purpose built weapon whereas a twin linked bolter is made from two bolters. Maybe for convenience the stormbolter uses a shorter barrel, on the models at least some appear bolt pistol size rather than bolter sized.
NauticalKendall wrote: Did everyone forget about those Grey Knight close combat guys that have the a storm bolter mounted to their wrists?
We're trying to, yes. If we pretend Mat Ward's fluff doesn't exist, then the revamp of the models won't be based on it either.
...You're aware the models came with Stormbolters orginally? All the way back in 3rd EDITION?
Actually the original GKs did not have stormbolters in their halberds. They actually had bolts- specifically 3 bolts you had to keep track of- in the tiny bolt weapon in the halberd. It's fluff power creep. And the same is true of the rhino. What started out as bolters on rhinos has escalated to stormbolters.
Sorry I didn't make it clear, I was talking about the first sculpts that had Stormbolters on the wrists, which was 3rd edition.
I would explain the difference between Combibolter and Stormbolter as such:
Combibolters are 2 bolters linked together (no gak sherlock). That means they both fire if you pull the trigger. So you shoot 2 shots everytime, no matter what. Chances of hitting are not greatly improved, because if you dont aim properly you're still missing.
Stombolter is a whole package, allowing it to fire one barrel after the other -> more rounds per minute -> better chance of hitting fast moving targets. Also less overkill ( 2 rounds hitting the same target).
This would make the most sense to me, because then the Stormbolter would actually have an advantage over the simple gun-linking.
Ailaros wrote: Yes, regular tacs can use stormbolters, they just can't do so relentlessly (shhh). It's a two-handed vs. one-handed kind of thing.
Yes he has a ccw in his hand but he wont get any advantage from it, because the stormbolter is too unwieldy to fire effectively using only one hand.
You can also wield two-hand swords in each hand. Its not going to be of much use however. Also, there's vids of soldiers dual wielding M249. Its possible but not usefull.
Col. Dash wrote: Coming from the actual armored world maybe I can shed some light. Why a stormbolter? Its a heavier weapon than a simple bolter.
Barely, and as you're in the know, what vehicle is armed with the equivalent of two m4s strapped together? None I'd think. I appreciate the points about ease of access and convenience, they certainly give a good reason why you wouldn't drag something up with you.
When armour is sent out, is there a maximum time before it's preferred for it to return and refuel, rearm or is that question too variable?
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Keep wrote: I would explain the difference between Combibolter and Stormbolter as such:
Combibolters are 2 bolters linked together (no gak sherlock). That means they both fire if you pull the trigger. So you shoot 2 shots everytime, no matter what. Chances of hitting are not greatly improved, because if you dont aim properly you're still missing.
Stombolter is a whole package, allowing it to fire one barrel after the other -> more rounds per minute -> better chance of hitting fast moving targets. Also less overkill ( 2 rounds hitting the same target).
That could be avoided by having the barrels slightly angled away from each other giving a wider hit area like firing a shotgun.
Computron wrote: That could be avoided by having the barrels slightly angled away from each other giving a wider hit area like firing a shotgun.
Well, but then you will only hit with both at close range and can only ever hit with one at longer range, and at close to maximum distance it's basically pointless and waisting ammo. So however you want to look at it, 2 bullets firing at the same time is a disadvantage over firing one after another. Particulary for a fast firing weapon. For big slow firing guns it makes some sense.
Barely, and as you're in the know, what vehicle is armed with the equivalent of two m4s strapped together? None I'd think.
Stormbolters are vastly more powerfull then poopy M4 or light MG so the point is irrelevant.
Computron wrote: That could be avoided by having the barrels slightly angled away from each other giving a wider hit area like firing a shotgun.
Well, but then you will only hit with both at close range and can only ever hit with one at longer range, and at close to maximum distance it's basically pointless and waisting ammo. So however you want to look at it, 2 bullets firing at the same time is a disadvantage over firing one after another. Particulary for a fast firing weapon. For big slow firing guns it makes some sense.
Why would you want to hit with both when one shot is enough to kill, the point is covering a larger area which is why shot is so effective. You don't rapid fire shot balls one after the after, you fire them at the same time for area saturation.
Barely, and as you're in the know, what vehicle is armed with the equivalent of two m4s strapped together? None I'd think.
Stormbolters are vastly more powerfull then poopy M4 or light MG so the point is irrelevant.
The point is that vehicle mounted weapons are more powerful than the standard infantry weapon. As bolters are the standard marine weapon, vehicle mounted weapons should be more powerful and not just two standard weapons.
Heavy Bolters are pretty awkward for a pintle mount and require more ammunition space. So, they'd be better off on a turret mount. You know, you could probably fit another Heavy Bolter too. Double the trouble. But you'd need place to put the ammo so... we should sacrifice transport capacity. Hmm... we should give it a different name. The Pig? The Boar? I dunno, there has to be a catchy swine related name good for this new vehicle.
Stormbolters are pretty much the only good intermediate weapon between a the basic infantry gun and a huge squad support weapon. The Space Marine armory is limited in comparison to a modern armory.
Silverthorne wrote:Humvees routinely carry a 40mm grenade launcher or TOW launcher.
Yes, but that doesn't address my point. The argument that pintle weapons should be bigger can be countered by the argument that you don't always want the biggest gun possible. As demonstrated by the fact that most humvees come with a 50-cal, not, say, a minuteman missile.
Does the fact that a humvee can have a missile launcher mean the rhino necessarily should?
Silverthorne wrote:And no sane person would argue that the Ma Duece is operable and portable by one man, which it would have to be for the storm bolter comparison to be valid.
A sane person could call an M2 a "super small arm".
And it's not required for a valid comparison. We're talking about guns that are more stable on a truck, not less stable in someone's hands.
Silverthorne wrote: To be a direct equivalence you would have to have an M249 in the turret, which is never done.
But you could fit an SAW in there. In any case, pintling makes any gun better for shooting from a moving vehicle. It doesn't matter if you have a big gun or a small gun, you're going to want to try and brace it on the vehicle if you can.
I've used a 249 mounted in the turret of a humvee and while the 240 is meant to be a crew served weapon any decent infantryman can use it by himself most the time I left its tripod on my bunk so and every guy in the platoon carried ammo for it out on foot patrols
Pentagon Wars, an HBO movie from '98. It's a great illustration of how the design process can go awry when you start having the "why not just add..." conversation. The rhino always struck me as a most practical vehicle compared to a lot of other 40k tanks (and not surprising, since it's clearly inspired by the M113 and other similar APCs). The fluff described a Storm Bolter as being similar in function and performance to something like an LMG, so it seems perfectly at home as a little pintle-mounted weapon. Being small and sharing ammunition with the embarked squad's weapon are very attractive features - it means you don't significantly increase the rhino's profile, or use up much of it's internal volume. Once you start bolting on heavy weapons, you need to start carrying ammunition (or reactors/power cells), you need to build up supporting structures for it, add a turret, weight, etc. It's odd that this thread has come up, because we DO have a hybrid vehicle in the fluff - the Razorback, which has a big damn gun on top, but can't carry as many troops, and doesn't have a lot of armor. Similar to the Bradley (which, incidentally, has proven itself to be a lot more useful of a vehicle than the impression that the movie gives you).
Bradley is a damn fine vehicle.
If you like riding around in bait that dies to a light breeze that can't even transport your full squad, then sure.
Bradley's are fantastic for smacking up impoverished terrorists, but it's gonna fold if it ever is used in an actual war in the likes of WWII. Bloody thing is made of aluminum and gets gutted by RPG's.
It provides much more protection that a Humvee and it brings real firepower, anti air support, and troop transport. It's not a main battle tank but I'd prefer to be in a Bradley over a Humvee any day. The days of tanks fighting tanks are pretty much over. No tank can take an antitank missile from an aircraft so whats the point of having super heavy tanks?
Fire support like always? Tanks have ALWAYS been gutted by Aircraft from WWII onwards. The problem is that the Bradley isn't a troop transport, and its weapon loadout makes it a jucy target. Instead of going after it like a normal APC, enemies treat it like a tank. And the Bradley has such godawful armor even RPG-V7's are a credible threat against it. And it can't even transport a full squad.
The Bradley is a scout vehicle it wasn't really meant to be an infantry fighting vehicle
TheCustomLime wrote: Hmm... we should give it a different name. The Pig? The Boar? I dunno, there has to be a catchy swine related name good for this new vehicle
The Pork.
Razorbacks, Rhinos, Thunderhawks... So, i guess, admech could come up with something else like a hedgehog or a snail that'd meet your demands.
Why do space marines use storm bolters on their vehicles? Because the STC said so, which means the omnissiah said so, thus the Adeptus Mechanicus ruled so, and the tech marines do so.
It has nothing to do with efficiency and everything to do with Adeptus Mechanicus dogma. (weren't rhinos originally a colony transport/exploration design? Why would you even need something as strong as a storm bolter when designing a STC for something like that)
Afterthought: Can't rhinos take Hunter Killer missiles? Those are 40k TOW equivalents.
TheCustomLime wrote:Heavy Bolters are pretty awkward for a pintle mount and require more ammunition space. So, they'd be better off on a turret mount. You know, you could probably fit another Heavy Bolter too. Double the trouble. But you'd need place to put the ammo so... we should sacrifice transport capacity. Hmm... we should give it a different name. The Pig? The Boar? I dunno, there has to be a catchy swine related name good for this new vehicle.
Stormbolters are pretty much the only good intermediate weapon between a the basic infantry gun and a huge squad support weapon. The Space Marine armory is limited in comparison to a modern armory.
You could put something punchier... twin-linked plasmagun perhaps? Although the idea of a TL-plasmagun is silly, because its main effect would be reducing overheats, when really it should make that problem worse.
Destroyer_742 wrote:Why do space marines use storm bolters on their vehicles? Because the STC said so, which means the omnissiah said so, thus the Adeptus Mechanicus ruled so, and the tech marines do so.
It has nothing to do with efficiency and everything to do with Adeptus Mechanicus dogma. (weren't rhinos originally a colony transport/exploration design? Why would you even need something as strong as a storm bolter when designing a STC for something like that)
Afterthought: Can't rhinos take Hunter Killer missiles? Those are 40k TOW equivalents.
The Rhino was adapted from a colonist exploration rover, yes, but that's the key - adapted. The AdMech weren't quite as restrictive on technology before the Horus Heresy, hence why they managed to invent astartes power armour.
Yes, Rhinos can take HK-missiles. Actually, a reasonable design would be two missile launchers on the front turrets with limited box magazines up there - say, six rockets in each launcher would do a whole game.
Plasma Guns are too unstable to be a transports main armament and the other Astartes special weapons are unsuitable for various reasons. Stormbolters are relatively reliable, have a decent punch, rapid firing and they have good range. The only other Imperial weapon that would be practical on top if a Rhino would be a Heavy Stubber. A twin linked one wouldn't be all that bad, come to think of it.
Computron wrote: That could be avoided by having the barrels slightly angled away from each other giving a wider hit area like firing a shotgun.
Well, but then you will only hit with both at close range and can only ever hit with one at longer range, and at close to maximum distance it's basically pointless and waisting ammo. So however you want to look at it, 2 bullets firing at the same time is a disadvantage over firing one after another. Particulary for a fast firing weapon. For big slow firing guns it makes some sense.
Why would you want to hit with both when one shot is enough to kill, the point is covering a larger area which is why shot is so effective. You don't rapid fire shot balls one after the after, you fire them at the same time for area saturation.
One shot is not always enough to kill. And area saturation isn't possible. You are limited to a certain range if you set a specific gun convergence. 2 bullets do not make a shotgun, besides the range of shotgun is very limited. Also, 0.75cal bullets are fairly large, so you don't have that many of them to waste half of them just for "area coverage".
The point is that vehicle mounted weapons are more powerful than the standard infantry weapon. As bolters are the standard marine weapon, vehicle mounted weapons should be more powerful and not just two standard weapons.
No vehicle mounted weapons are not always more powerfull then standard infantry weapons. I was MG3 gunner in my vehicle and i also carried it on foot. Mounted on the vehicle it was way more effective to use and more accurate, less tiresome and much quicker to use. It's flat out better just from the fact that its mounted.
TheCustomLime wrote: Heavy Bolters are pretty awkward for a pintle mount and require more ammunition space. So, they'd be better off on a turret mount. You know, you could probably fit another Heavy Bolter too. Double the trouble. But you'd need place to put the ammo so... we should sacrifice transport capacity. Hmm... we should give it a different name. The Pig? The Boar? I dunno, there has to be a catchy swine related name good for this new vehicle.
.
The hogfather.
Or...............................
Use a heavy bolter and just use ammo boxes like they do with attack bikes and speeders.
morganfreeman wrote: Keep in mind that Stormbolters aren't actually very "small" weapons. A Stormbolter is essentially an LMG, which is pretty damn big and lethal respectively.
morganfreeman wrote: Keep in mind that Stormbolters aren't actually very "small" weapons. A Stormbolter is essentially an LMG, which is pretty damn big and lethal respectively.
Then why aren't stormbolters?
Because fluff does not equal crunch? Is this seriously a question?
There's a reason that Codex: Space Marines doesn't give you guys as strong and elite as you read about in the novels..
You can't tell, but I'm in stitches, I'm laughing so hard at this statement.
Unless you are playing Space Hulk Stormbolters don't seem to be particularly prone to jamming. They certainly don't run the risk of melting your transport like a Twin-linked Plasma Gun would.
You can't tell, but I'm in stitches, I'm laughing so hard at this statement.
Unless you are playing Space Hulk Stormbolters don't seem to be particularly prone to jamming. They certainly don't run the risk of melting your transport like a Twin-linked Plasma Gun would.
The very feed system of storm bolters damns it to experiencing jams.
Never understood Storm Bolters. If Space Marines wanted a bolter weapon with greater punch for their Terminators, then just make a bolter with a feed system like a P90.
Wyzilla wrote: Never understood Storm Bolters. If Space Marines wanted a bolter weapon with greater punch for their Terminators, then just make a bolter with a feed system like a P90.
You dont "just invent" things in 40k...
Also, a different feed system does not necessarily give you a "greater punch", and some technologies are simply not combinable (or do you know how the locking mechanism works in bolters?)
Wyzilla wrote: Never understood Storm Bolters. If Space Marines wanted a bolter weapon with greater punch for their Terminators, then just make a bolter with a feed system like a P90.
You dont "just invent" things in 40k...
Over a period of ten thousand years, the same amount of time in which modern humanity went from freezing our asses off in caves to walking on the moon, I would expect somebody in a population numbering in the quadrillions on a million worlds to have developed and tested new forms of bolters. Which isn't even that exceptional, considering some people run around with bullpup bolters like Azrael, or the Salamanders who make their own weapons.
making a different case around a mechanism isnt the same as completely redesigning a mechanism. Even some dudes from alqaida made a bullpup version out of an ordinary AK.
And no 40k is not known for great or even groundbreaking inventions. Guess why STC's are so important.
Keep wrote: making a different case around a mechanism isnt the same as completely redesigning a mechanism. Even some dudes from alqaida made a bullpup version out of an ordinary AK.
And no 40k is not known for great or even groundbreaking inventions. Guess why STC's are so important.
And unless they're regressed to the point where literally every single person with tools is mentally slowed (which they clearly are not given the computational power of machine spirits the admech uses), it's physically impossible for nobody having expanded the range of bolters available in the course of ten thousand years. Especially when all it takes is a bored machinist with time to kill. Plus somebody else could have also just slapped an autocannon on the rifle and everything would work just fine, and it'd be a whole hell of a lot more reliable then a Storm Bolter. Or any other twin-feed weapon with multiple barrels that do not cycle.
Well i challenge you to make your computer calculate a weapon design. Not even with a super computer would that be possible.
Innovation is looked down upon in 40k. Or why do you think are the IA tank designs so extremely backwards? No 40kIoM is not a faction where people "just invent" radically new stuff. If you want that, look for TAU or eldar, but not IoM.
If it's so easy, show us how the bolter works internally. Then make a better design. I'm sure you have tools...
And what tells you that stormbolters are not reliable? Boardgame rules? You know that this is not an accurate depiction of fluff?
Thats not true at all. The Imperium does innovate but it is a slow process. You have to show your designs to a bunch of tech priests and have them test it to see if its any good. This process can take decades if not centuries.
What the Imperium hates is unauthorized innovation. They do not want your average Joe Schmoe to fiddle around with his power generator in case his modifications take out an entire city block.
Wyzilla wrote: And unless they're regressed to the point where literally every single person with tools is mentally slowed (which they clearly are not given the computational power of machine spirits the admech uses), it's physically impossible for nobody having expanded the range of bolters available in the course of ten thousand years. Especially when all it takes is a bored machinist with time to kill. Plus somebody else could have also just slapped an autocannon on the rifle and everything would work just fine, and it'd be a whole hell of a lot more reliable then a Storm Bolter. Or any other twin-feed weapon with multiple barrels that do not cycle.
It's not about ability, it's about religious stupidity. It doesn't matter if you have the ability to tinker with a bolter and improve it, if you do and get caught you're going to be executed for heresy.
Wyzilla wrote: And unless they're regressed to the point where literally every single person with tools is mentally slowed (which they clearly are not given the computational power of machine spirits the admech uses), it's physically impossible for nobody having expanded the range of bolters available in the course of ten thousand years. Especially when all it takes is a bored machinist with time to kill. Plus somebody else could have also just slapped an autocannon on the rifle and everything would work just fine, and it'd be a whole hell of a lot more reliable then a Storm Bolter. Or any other twin-feed weapon with multiple barrels that do not cycle.
It's not about ability, it's about religious stupidity. It doesn't matter if you have the ability to tinker with a bolter and improve it, if you do and get caught you're going to be executed for heresy.
And yet I cannot think of a single example demonstrating that. The Imperium is a federation of states, with planets varying wildly in nature and laws. On one Hive World people may be lobotomized and turned into servitors for j-walking, while on another the planet may be ruled by a criminal lord with piracy being both fair and legal.
It is downright impossible for somebody not to have made an absurd amount of bolter variations in the period of ten thousand years when this is the same universe where people can get weapons with microscopic guts with enough power to blow a significant hole in somebody. Especially when there's Chapters of Space Marines such as the Salamanders who build their weapons from scratch, and bolters are an incredibly simple weapon design when you don't add the autosenses that link up with the helm of whoever's using one. Without the autosenses, Bolters are just fancy .75 caliber assault rifles with esoteric ammunition. Not to mention there already is an incredibly large array of variants, and artificer bolters tailored to their owner also exist. A compact bullpup deisgn like the P90 certainly exists, and would be a far more valuable alternative to the storm bolter. Hell, so would linking up multilasers to the fusion generator in Indomitus armor that would provide infinite ammunition for the Veteran wielding the weapon.
i swear go gawd, give anything the serpent shield upgrade and the troop transport in to a 60" S6 ignores your cover d6 hits! for 15 fething flashlights!
Wyzilla wrote: Never understood Storm Bolters. If Space Marines wanted a bolter weapon with greater punch for their Terminators, then just make a bolter with a feed system like a P90.
You dont "just invent" things in 40k...
Also, a different feed system does not necessarily give you a "greater punch", and some technologies are simply not combinable (or do you know how the locking mechanism works in bolters?)
In the fluff, storm bolters have always been unreliable and prone to jamming. They just... got rid of it in crunch when they moved to 3rd edition and it never came back, for some reason.
I mean, in Faith and Fire the Celestians even joke about it.
"If only I had a storm bolter!"
"Yeah, you could give it to them and have it do our jobs for us!"
