Ok Martel. Let's hash out some ideas

Gotta love how Martel has to have his own special thread

Some ideas from me.

Command squad in drop pod
With melta guns 180 points
With plasma guns 195 points

Devastators with 4 lascannons 150

Dark angel librarian is 65 with a 6" 4++ is 95 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:
Gotta love how Martel has to have his own special thread

Don't be rude.

What do the drop pod units do about bubblewrapping? I mean the Tau player can see what I've got in my pods.

They only reliable thing I can really think of for Astartes is a Tiggystar.

And again, is there anyway to keep the DA devastators from losing half the squad to an IA shot?

How to kill a riptide?

Step one: Obtain hammer.


Really though.
D weapons or Psychic Shriek are good options.
So is Grav CentStar

Ok well let's explore some ideas.

A DA librarian can offer a 6" 4++.
You can take 2 for 190 points.

DA devastators are the same as BA devastators.

BA can give 2 units FnP for 130 points (2 sanguine priests).

Command squads can be given storm shields for 10 points each.

You play BA right?

Lol, bubblewrapping has no use when you've got a 5+ invuln, unless you get stealth or shrouded (not possible as far as I know).

There is no full proof way of anyone surviving but it is only a 150 point unit.

Boniface wrote:
Ok well let's explore some ideas.

A DA librarian can offer a 6" 4++.
You can take 2 for 190 points.

DA devastators are the same as BA devastators.

BA can give 2 units FnP for 130 points (2 sanguine priests).

Command squads can be given storm shields for 10 points each.

You play BA right?

Yes, I do. FnP doesn't function against the Nova charged pie plate though. Storm shields might let me get one unit through, but they won't help against the pulse rifles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaPino wrote:
Lol, bubblewrapping has no use when you've got a 5+ invuln, unless you get stealth or shrouded (not possible as far as I know).

Do you ever play against drop pods? It sure as hell has a use.

"Storm shields might let me get one unit through, but they won't help against the pulse rifles."

By that logic why even take Storm Shields since ethey will do to bolters...

SGTPozy wrote:
"Storm shields might let me get one unit through, but they won't help against the pulse rifles."

By that logic why even take Storm Shields since ethey will do to bolters...

My assumption is that the Tau player is not brain dead. They will pie plate the units with no storm shields and then shoot the storm shield guys with pulse rifles. Because doing it the other way around is stupid.

Deep Striking Hammernators is my favourite tool, but Shriek is funny when it works. "What do you mean your sixty-five point Librarian just one-shotted my Riptide?".

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
"Storm shields might let me get one unit through, but they won't help against the pulse rifles."

By that logic why even take Storm Shields since ethey will do to bolters...

My assumption is that the Tau player is not brain dead. They will pie plate the units with no storm shields and then shoot the storm shield guys with pulse rifles. Because doing it the other way around is stupid.

My point still stands; why take them when a marine player will pie plate the units without storm shields and shoot their bolters at the storm shield guys?

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
"Storm shields might let me get one unit through, but they won't help against the pulse rifles."

By that logic why even take Storm Shields since ethey will do to bolters...

My assumption is that the Tau player is not brain dead. They will pie plate the units with no storm shields and then shoot the storm shield guys with pulse rifles. Because doing it the other way around is stupid.

My point still stands; why take them when a marine player will pie plate the units without storm shields and shoot their bolters at the storm shield guys?

That's why I don't use storm shields.

Possible blood angel options. Units I feel have potential.

Command squad 5 man FnP 100 points, up to 3 specials each squad. Possible 3 squads. Can be drop prodded or jump packs for increased speed.

Assault squads 5 man with 4 metas in a pod or with packs is 135.

Devastators with 4 lascannons 150 points.

Fast tanks = more moving and shooting.

Fliers are good


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With the riptide one of the things to do is get into a position where you can minimise the impact of the template.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The normal shooting is S7 and therefore you get feel no pain.

3 grav bike squads = upto 27 grav shots (18 after combi used). That gives 18hits, 15wounds. All averages of course.

Make sure it can't use the template where possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How open are you to allies?

Death company with jump packs and a couple of fists/hammers. Sweep.

Poly Ranger wrote:
3 grav bike squads = upto 27 grav shots (18 after combi used). That gives 18hits, 15wounds. All averages of course.

I'm guessing this is why so many tournament lists have so many bikers. C:SM does this so much better, though. Yuck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Death company with jump packs and a couple of fists/hammers. Sweep.

I have a lot of problems getting them there.

Shoot the choppy. Chop the shooty.

What to do when the shooty is more choppy than you, too?

Riptides are rough.

Martel732 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
3 grav bike squads = upto 27 grav shots (18 after combi used). That gives 18hits, 15wounds. All averages of course.

I'm guessing this is why so many tournament lists have so many bikers. C:SM does this so much better, though. Yuck.

There is that.

Boniface wrote:
Make sure it can't use the template where possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How open are you to allies?

Maybe allies?

What models do you own?

Boniface wrote:
What models do you own?

Pretty much lots of everything in codex BA and nothing else.

My answer to a riptide in my BA games is always "go hug the enemy for safety." If things go well, I'll have a good chunk of army left to surround and kill the tide. Every direct hit with an IA on my dudes is devastating though. No saves, no fnp, they just drop like gretchin. Really expensive gretchin.

Multiple Pods of Basic Sternguard, one ammo options:
Kraken Bolts lets you Ignore their Armor
If it is Kroot/Pathfinders Dragonfire Ammo will make short work of them.
Or just make sure you are withn 12" and pull out the Hellfire Ammo and make the Riptide make lots of saves.

Dark Eldar FUN Version:

-Take asuccubus and give her the Ld-2 armor and a WWP.
- Attach her to squad with a phantasm grenade launcher. Add someTorment grenade launchers to your raiders.
- Place the succubus in 6" range of the riptide, when she arrives.
- Fire the PGL and TGL at him and let him do some Tests on Ld7... everytimes he fails he suffers somewounds and have normally just a 5++ to save them.

The easy way:

Shoot Splinter Wapons and Desintegrators at him...

 Anpu42 wrote:
Multiple Pods of Basic Sternguard, one ammo options:
Kraken Bolts lets you Ignore their Armor

Nah... They are just AP3 and the riptide has a 2+. Its also S4 against T6. Sternguard is actually not that good at killing riptides, even if you use the poison ammo.

You don't want drop pods?

Boniface wrote:
You don't want drop pods?

Drop pods are in codex: BA, but I don't use them much as they often hurt more than they help.

How many pods do you use, when you found them to be mor ehurt than help?

My personal favourite methods to kill Riptides with my Space Wolves:
1) Tank shock them off the board with a half dozen Rhinos. (And if they shoot the Rhinos first? Whatever, my other units are still alive, thanks!)
2) Thunderwolves. Doesn't take very many, but if you have 2-3 left when you catch them, preferably with a Thunder Hammer or Power Fist, then they're dead.

Or... just ignore them. I know it's not the topic, but if you're not able to put enough wounds onto them to do any reliable damage, then don't even bother trying - use the shots on a squishier and more damaging unit, like Crisis Suits or Broadsides.

Making a thread targeting someone specifically reeks of attempted bullying there is nothing in this thread that could not have been discussed in an existing one. Frankly its disgusting.

 curran12 wrote:
How many pods do you use, when you found them to be mor ehurt than help?

1-3. It just seems to inflict marginal damage and get a bunch of Astartes killed. All the Xeno players know how to set up against pods now.

Martel732 wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
How many pods do you use, when you found them to be mor ehurt than help?

1-3. It just seems to inflict marginal damage and get a bunch of Astartes killed. All the Xeno players know how to set up against pods now.

1-3 is a death sentence, you need 5+ to overwhelm your opponent.

I will tell you that one or two pods is usually easy to deal with, as the defender will only ever have to worry about one at a time and one pod's worth of Marines is very easy to shoot down without support. If you're going to go pods, you need support and/or saturation.

Going 5+ drop pods with BA seems very, very dicey for a TAC situation. 5+ pods is also beginning to piecemeal your list badly. Or are people using empty pod shenanigans a lot?

Can we get the title changed to something like "How do BA kill Riptides"?

 Quickjager wrote:
Making a thread targeting someone specifically reeks of attempted bullying there is nothing in this thread that could not have been discussed in an existing one. Frankly its disgusting.

If it makes people feel good, I don't really care.

Martel732 wrote:
Going 5+ drop pods with BA seems very, very dicey for a TAC situation. 5+ pods is also beginning to piecemeal your list badly. Or are people using empty pod shenanigans a lot?

No mine are usually Full. Most people have an issue with 30 Marines and three Pod in their backfield on turn one. If uou deploy them correctly you should oly be dealing with one or two enemy units at a time per squad.
With a riptide two would be almost no upgrade Sternguard and the third loaded with Combi-Plasma Sternguard. If I got first turn I would feed the Riptide about 20 Plasma Shots before he got a chance to pull off his 3++ Shield.

Interceptor: How many units of Interceptors do they field, if they have a lot there is a lot of units will be lacking something else.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Going 5+ drop pods with BA seems very, very dicey for a TAC situation. 5+ pods is also beginning to piecemeal your list badly. Or are people using empty pod shenanigans a lot?

No mine are usually Full. Most people have an issue with 30 Marines and three Pod in their backfield on turn one. If uou deploy them correctly you should oly be dealing with one or two enemy units at a time per squad.
With a riptide two would be almost no upgrade Sternguard and the third loaded with Combi-Plasma Sternguard. If I got first turn I would feed the Riptide about 20 Plasma Shots before he got a chance to pull off his 3++ Shield.

Interceptor: How many units of Interceptors do they field, if they have a lot there is a lot of units will be lacking something else.

So your standard lists have combi-plasma sternguard in them? And a naked squad? Or is this tailored for Tau? Because I don't get to tailor. My opponents mostly stopped using interceptor, as drop armies were doing the whole get out of the pod and stand next to Tau units trick. Now, they just move their units away on their turn and fire normally and just absorb the alpha strike. Also, why are players setting up to allow drop pods in their backfield?

If drop pods hurt you more than help when you use them you have no idea what you're doing. Which is sad if you actually play marines.. but it is ba n they are marines -2

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If drop pods hurt you more than help when you use them you have no idea what you're doing. Which is sad if you actually play marines.. but it is ba n they are marines -2

Or my opponents have a lot of practice against pods. Which they do. There are two SW players that do pods exclusively.

I mean you use the pod, your guys get out and shoot once, and then die. What magic is there to understand about how to "use drop pods". The pods force you to commit forces very early, since they are foot slogging and you never actually get to use the AV 12 for anything.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Going 5+ drop pods with BA seems very, very dicey for a TAC situation. 5+ pods is also beginning to piecemeal your list badly. Or are people using empty pod shenanigans a lot?

No mine are usually Full. Most people have an issue with 30 Marines and three Pod in their backfield on turn one. If uou deploy them correctly you should oly be dealing with one or two enemy units at a time per squad.
With a riptide two would be almost no upgrade Sternguard and the third loaded with Combi-Plasma Sternguard. If I got first turn I would feed the Riptide about 20 Plasma Shots before he got a chance to pull off his 3++ Shield.

Interceptor: How many units of Interceptors do they field, if they have a lot there is a lot of units will be lacking something else.

So your standard lists have combi-plasma sternguard in them? And a naked squad? Or is this tailored for Tau? Because I don't get to tailor.

Fist of it hard for me not list tailoring:
>Brian: Hay I am bringing my Guard over this weekend.
This is normal for around here so we cant help it.

And yes most of my Space Marine Armies usually include the 10 model Plasma-Sternguard, usualy in a Stormraven, though if I were to do a pod list I would probably still take them as they have never failed me.
Now recently I have been experimenting with Naked Sturnguard/Vanguard/Wolf Guard and have been having great results so those are starting to make it into my normal rotation.

Martel732 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If drop pods hurt you more than help when you use them you have no idea what you're doing. Which is sad if you actually play marines.. but it is ba n they are marines -2

Or my opponents have a lot of practice against pods. Which they do. There are two SW players that do pods exclusively.

I mean you use the pod, your guys get out and shoot once, and then die. What magic is there to understand about how to "use drop pods". The pods force you to commit forces very early, since they are foot slogging and you never actually get to use the AV 12 for anything.

This is just what I mean you have NO idea how to use pods.. they score objectives dude.. and are very hard to explodem even with your baby the tide.

I really don't want to get into the specifics of actually getting a plasma sternguard within 12" of a Riptide while coming out of a Raven, but it's not trivial.

And a tailored solution is a non-solution for me.

and how do you stop Drop Pods from getting into your backfeild.
The only method I have seen is to park your army on their edge of the table and that is a never good plan.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If drop pods hurt you more than help when you use them you have no idea what you're doing. Which is sad if you actually play marines.. but it is ba n they are marines -2

Or my opponents have a lot of practice against pods. Which they do. There are two SW players that do pods exclusively.

I mean you use the pod, your guys get out and shoot once, and then die. What magic is there to understand about how to "use drop pods". The pods force you to commit forces very early, since they are foot slogging and you never actually get to use the AV 12 for anything.

This is just what I mean you have NO idea how to use pods.. they score objectives dude.. and are very hard to explodem even with your baby the tide.

So you drop the pod on an objective, and then combat squad. And then hope that they can't shoot you off the objective in 5-6 turns of shooting? That sounds incredibly optimistic to me.

What? Yes you do what you said above and put a threat in front of them... That's a turn or two of them shooting the threat they can't ignore. Are you that... Blah.. I've never wanted to be so rude to someone on dakka before lol. Please get common sense and quit being so narrow in your view. It's wrong.

You drop on a Specific Target you want eliminated and take it down. After that you go after the objective or use the later pods to take them.
My first pods down are "Special Forces", SG/VV/GW/Dreads then followed by Tactical Squads/Grey Hunters.

I agree with Martel. In a hyper competitive setting Marines do not have enough firepower to damage optimized lists meaningfully. Most top tier lists have a laundry list of abilities to mitigate even the heaviest of incoming marine shots. Then they have a ton of AP 3 or better weapons to throw back. Grav-bikers are one of the very few saving graces of the Marine codices thanks to their high volume of shots that effectively ignore a models toughness and armor values.

I would say devestators with lascannons.

Edit: wait, not sure that would work since it's not mech... damn tau, cheating bastards.

 Anpu42 wrote:
You drop on a Specific Target you want eliminated and take it down. After that you go after the objective or use the later pods to take them.
My first pods down are "Special Forces", SG/VV/GW/Dreads then followed by Tactical Squads/Grey Hunters.

And if you don't take it down?

Close combat squad with AP2 and jump packs

Plasma/grav in pods

Grav bikes

Psychic shriek (lost my riptide the other day when someone rolled 17!)

Make it roll any kind of moral check and there's a good chance it'll run 3D6 off table.

That's what I'd do

What Targets I choose to go after I usualy do either get taken out, if not really mess it up.
The last game My Podding Wolf Guard took down two Raiders in oune turn just from Bolter Fire. When the other two pods showed up they both killed a Raider with a mix of Bolter and Combi-Plasma Fire.
What the Drop Pod Assault mostly did was force the DA Players to be constantly change his battle plans. He had two Raiders Skimming back and for they to get to a position.

Martel you don't have to take it down. Only distract it

Marine units are too expensive to throw them away like that.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Marine units are too expensive to throw them away like that.

This is what I have found as well. I don't understand how these lists are not being blown apart in piecemeal. In fact, that is my exact battle plan against SW drop. The first ones drop in, shoot me. Then my army kills them. The next wave comes in, shoots me, then my army kills them. Repeat until they are out of pods. It sounds like everything is predicated on Xenos or whomever not being able to maul 30 meqs in one round of point blank shooting. Or in my case, BA shooting followed by a visit from the DC.

Tell you what... why not drop a load of heavy flamers, and flame all his fire warriors and pathfinders, see how annoying that riptide is when its the only thing on the board

Taffy17 wrote:
Tell you what... why not drop a load of heavy flamers, and flame all his fire warriors and pathfinders, see how annoying that riptide is when its the only thing on the board

It's never that simple. How many flamer units to bring? Against mech lists, I want none. Against Ork foot lists, I want three or four. So the most I ever bring is two, and usually one is the reality.

The Riptide, Battlesuits and Hammerheads are more than capable of it. You haven't addressed the elephant in the room. You just stepped on all the mice and declared victory.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Marine units are too expensive to throw them away like that.

This is what I have found as well. I don't understand how these lists are not being blown apart in piecemeal. In fact, that is my exact battle plan against SW drop. The first ones drop in, shoot me. Then my army kills them. The next wave comes in, shoots me, then my army kills them. Repeat until they are out of pods. It sounds like everything is predicated on Xenos or whomever not being able to maul 30 meqs in one round of point blank shooting. Or in my case, BA shooting followed by a visit from the DC.

Yes, if you do it right only one or two units can take shots at you. You plan it right your pods can block terrain, give other units cover and cut his army in half.
Remember you can get a pod into a 6"x6" Area safety. Also with the Mi9ssle Pod can help you deal with softer units. Target priority is also the key. My Plasma Guard is going to hit the Riptide, the pod any bubble wrap get a pie plate. The second Sternguard hit an HQ, the third the Broadsides and drop two more Pie Plates. If dice go well you just got rid of or at least crippled three big units.
Now think about 5 or 7 Pods landing on Turn one.

Martel732, what percentage of armies you play against have riptides in?

"Its never that simple" why? i say plasma, you say he'll bubble rap, i say heavy flamer the bubble rap instead, you say its not that simple. i don't think you care about any of our advise. Your too anti Tau to even consider anything.

Taffy17 wrote:
Martel732, what percentage of armies you play against have riptides in?

"Its never that simple" why? i say plasma, you say he'll bubble rap, i say heavy flamer the bubble rap instead, you say its not that simple. i don't think you care about any of our advise. Your too anti Tau to even consider anything.

I'd say Tau come up about 1:7 games. Enough to be aggravating, not enough to tailor against. We've got one diehard Tau and a several who dabble.

I say bubblewrap because they do when there is 10 X plasma sternguard in play. If there were 10 X melta, they may not bother.

I'd love to flamer the bubblewrap every game, but I don't know to bring it every game. Unless you think I should bring that many flamers to EVERY game. Flamers are very nice, but useless against mech lists and things like Deathwing.

I am listening. I just don't have all these tools you are proposing every game. I never use plasma sternguard because I think they are overcosted in 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Marine units are too expensive to throw them away like that.

This is what I have found as well. I don't understand how these lists are not being blown apart in piecemeal. In fact, that is my exact battle plan against SW drop. The first ones drop in, shoot me. Then my army kills them. The next wave comes in, shoots me, then my army kills them. Repeat until they are out of pods. It sounds like everything is predicated on Xenos or whomever not being able to maul 30 meqs in one round of point blank shooting. Or in my case, BA shooting followed by a visit from the DC.

Yes, if you do it right only one or two units can take shots at you. You plan it right your pods can block terrain, give other units cover and cut his army in half.
Remember you can get a pod into a 6"x6" Area safety. Also with the Mi9ssle Pod can help you deal with softer units. Target priority is also the key. My Plasma Guard is going to hit the Riptide, the pod any bubble wrap get a pie plate. The second Sternguard hit an HQ, the third the Broadsides and drop two more Pie Plates. If dice go well you just got rid of or at least crippled three big units.
Now think about 5 or 7 Pods landing on Turn one.

You can't fire the deathwind launcher the turn you arrive. And that bubblewrap just put you out of plasma double tap range. Or does no one play that way in your group?

What's your TAC list then that you use against all opponents?

Martel732 wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Martel732, what percentage of armies you play against have riptides in?

"Its never that simple" why? i say plasma, you say he'll bubble rap, i say heavy flamer the bubble rap instead, you say its not that simple. i don't think you care about any of our advise. Your too anti Tau to even consider anything.

I'd say Tau come up about 1:7 games. Enough to be aggravating, not enough to tailor against. We've got one diehard Tau and a several who dabble.

I say bubblewrap because they do when there is 10 X plasma sternguard in play. If there were 10 X melta, they may not bother.

I'd love to flamer the bubblewrap every game, but I don't know to bring it every game. Unless you think I should bring that many flamers to EVERY game. Flamers are very nice, but useless against mech lists and things like Deathwing.

I am listening. I just don't have all these tools you are proposing every game. I never use plasma sternguard because I think they are overcosted in 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Marine units are too expensive to throw them away like that.

This is what I have found as well. I don't understand how these lists are not being blown apart in piecemeal. In fact, that is my exact battle plan against SW drop. The first ones drop in, shoot me. Then my army kills them. The next wave comes in, shoots me, then my army kills them. Repeat until they are out of pods. It sounds like everything is predicated on Xenos or whomever not being able to maul 30 meqs in one round of point blank shooting. Or in my case, BA shooting followed by a visit from the DC.

Yes, if you do it right only one or two units can take shots at you. You plan it right your pods can block terrain, give other units cover and cut his army in half.
Remember you can get a pod into a 6"x6" Area safety. Also with the Mi9ssle Pod can help you deal with softer units. Target priority is also the key. My Plasma Guard is going to hit the Riptide, the pod any bubble wrap get a pie plate. The second Sternguard hit an HQ, the third the Broadsides and drop two more Pie Plates. If dice go well you just got rid of or at least crippled three big units.
Now think about 5 or 7 Pods landing on Turn one.

You can't fire the deathwind launcher the turn you arrive.

But you now have the option of taking one squad with free Combi-Weapons and two Vanguard Squads with free power weapons. It is not hard to turn Assault Squads into Vanguard


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes you can, 7th Edition change to Drop Pods thay come it at Combat Speed.

Taffy17 wrote:
What's your TAC list then you use against all opponents?

I'm still refining my dual Stormraven/Dante list, so my primary 1850 list has been:

HQ: Mephiston manifesting divination
HQ: Level 2 Libby, jump pack, valor's edge manifesting sanguinius

Troop: 5 tac marines, plasma, combi-plas
Transport: Las/plas razor, dozer blade, heavy armor
Troop: 5 tac marines, plamsa, combi-plas
Transport: Las/plas razor, dozer blade, heavy armor

Elite: DC X 10 w/ 2 power fist, 10X jump packs
Level 2 libby joins this squad

Elite: Sternguard X 9
Transport: Rhino, dozer blade, heavy armor
Mephiston joins this squad

Elite: Furioso dreadnought, frag cannon, melta gun
Transport: Drop pod

Fast Attack: 5 X bikers, combi-grav, 2 X grav gun

Fast Attack: 3 X attack bikes, 3 X MM

Heavy: Fast tri-las pred, dozer blade




Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Yes you can, 7th Edition change to Drop Pods thay come it at Combat Speed."

So the deathwind launcher isn't completely useless? That's a thing.

"But you now have the option of taking one squad with free Combi-Weapons and two Vanguard Squads with free power weapons. It is not hard to turn Assault Squads into Vanguard"

I haven't coughed up for that book yet. I'm not sure I will. I'm not as hot on that formation as some others. I feel that power weapons are not adding much to my cause in general.

How many points is that and how many riptides are you planning on going against?

That list looks pretty Riptide proof.

To make it even better I'd put the sternguard in a pod and swap the attack bikes for an assault squad with 2 melta guns and combi and pod, would be much more effective against Tau. Would save you points as well.

Mephiston should own that riptide especially if he has psychic shriek.

Taffy17 wrote:
How many points is that and how many riptides are you planning on going against?

That list looks pretty Riptide proof.

To make it even better I'd put the sternguard in a pod and swap the attack bikes for an assault squad with 2 melta guns and combi and pod, would be much more effective against Tau. Would save you points as well.

Mephiston should own that riptide especially if he has psychic shriek.

BA can't get telepathy. So no invis, either.

Biomancy will have to do then, either way, your list looks pretty riptide proof.

what did you think of my comments on your list about the sternguard pod and assault squad?

I'd drop the Assault squad and dread first turn, mephiston can come in and mop up, saves that rhino getting shot to pieces and having him foot slogging

Taffy17 wrote:
Biomancy will have to do then, either way, your list looks pretty riptide proof.

what did you think of my comments on your list about the sternguard pod and assault squad?

I'd drop the Assault squad and dread first turn, mephiston can come in and mop up, saves that rhino getting shot to pieces and having him foot slogging

Well, actually I've been giving Mephiston divination. It has worked pretty well so far.

I can see trying the triple pods. I wonder how it will work against the field.

The conclusion that I've pretty much run into is that there is no more such thing as TAC in 40K. With formations, dataslates, multiple CADs, and allies out the wazoo its just impossible to try to counter everything.

Martel specifically says he doesn't run into Tau enough to tailor for it. Well once you take that attitude you have pretty much accepted that the Tau is the Rock to your Scissors.

If your not willing to tailor for it, well, you just arn't going to kill it. That pretty much is for anything in the game. You just cant bring knives to fight off an air strike.

Flamers vs terminators? Horde cultists vs Armor Co. There are just some match-ups that under normal situations are not going to win.

Biomancy gives your a lot of AP2 if you want more of it, and things like Iron Arm will help.

Once first turn is up he'll still have to worry about either mephiston, assault squad or dread landing right next to his riptide on any turn. Also you really, really, really don't want to be driving across the table towards a Tau gunline in a Rhino.

But like i said, your list looks pretty riptide proof anyway.

 Jayden63 wrote:
The conclusion that I've pretty much run into is that there is no more such thing as TAC in 40K. With formations, dataslates, multiple CADs, and allies out the wazoo its just impossible to try to counter everything.

Martel specifically says he doesn't run into Tau enough to tailor for it. Well once you take that attitude you have pretty much accepted that the Tau is the Rock to your Scissors.

If your not willing to tailor for it, well, you just arn't going to kill it. That pretty much is for anything in the game. You just cant bring knives to fight off an air strike.

Flamers vs terminators? Horde cultists vs Armor Co. There are just some match-ups that under normal situations are not going to win.

Yeah, but that isn't Martel's fault, that is bad game design. I don't blame the Tau players who play the Riptide, I blame the writers for creating such over powered nonsense. I just don't understand why it is so hard for some people to just accept that this game has awful, horrible balance and they happen to benefit from it. I don't think you are a bad player if you take overpowered units, there is other criteria for that. But if you take an overpowered list against someone who isn't looking for the tournament level, you are just looking to wipe someone off the table and not play an actual game.

Taffy17 wrote:
Biomancy gives your a lot of AP2 if you want more of it, and things like Iron Arm will help.

Once first turn is up he'll still have to worry about either mephiston, assault squad or dread landing right next to his riptide on any turn. Also you really, really, really don't want to be driving across the table towards a Tau gunline in a Rhino.

But like i said, your list looks pretty riptide proof anyway.

Now that you mention it, I CAN customize what disciplines I choose each game. Against Tau, I have moved the Rhino in the shooting phase on the first turn for 24" movement. Against other lists, it works with the razors to give cover for DC.

How to kill any unit in the game:

1) Have right units, equipment, and numbers in list

2) Move units into a position they can use that equipment

3) Have luck

I don't think the question is what will kill a Riptide. We all understand that lots of AP 2 will take them down. We know that Close Combat with (almost) anything that's got a power fist will take them down. We know psychic powers will take them down.

It's more that it takes too many of these things to kill it to kill one reliably than anything else.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
The conclusion that I've pretty much run into is that there is no more such thing as TAC in 40K. With formations, dataslates, multiple CADs, and allies out the wazoo its just impossible to try to counter everything.

Martel specifically says he doesn't run into Tau enough to tailor for it. Well once you take that attitude you have pretty much accepted that the Tau is the Rock to your Scissors.

If your not willing to tailor for it, well, you just arn't going to kill it. That pretty much is for anything in the game. You just cant bring knives to fight off an air strike.

Flamers vs terminators? Horde cultists vs Armor Co. There are just some match-ups that under normal situations are not going to win.

Yeah, but that isn't Martel's fault, that is bad game design. I don't blame the Tau players who play the Riptide, I blame the writers for creating such over powered nonsense. I just don't understand why it is so hard for some people to just accept that this game has awful, horrible balance and they happen to benefit from it. I don't think you are a bad player if you take overpowered units, there is other criteria for that. But if you take an overpowered list against someone who isn't looking for the tournament level, you are just looking to wipe someone off the table and not play an actual game.

Its catastrophic game design and one that ultimately will spell the doom of 40K. Once they started with the mentality of DLC is awesome, you loose all sense of balance. Its because they have to make the DLC available to everyone otherwise you make no money. But unfortunately the balance of the seperate factions make new content either meh to stupidly over powered when combined with forces it wasn't originally designed to work with.

GW have really bought into a business mentality that I don't think 40K will survive. 40K has lost all identity, it really is now a pay to win type of game for new players. The universe of 40K is still highly enjoyable and engaging. The tabletop is just a disaster.

Great it only took three pages to blame GW one this one.

SGTPozy wrote:
Gotta love how Martel has to have his own special thread

I was happy when I got mine for the MCs.

Grav weapons make my Riptides sad.

Ironically, a DK with a Gatling Psilencer kills Riptides fairly well, all the 'Tide has to do is fail one save, then poof!

SJ

 Anpu42 wrote:
Great it only took three pages to blame GW one this one.

Well, it is their fault in the end.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Great it only took three pages to blame GW one this one.

Well, it is their fault in the end.

They are getting better, especially if you look at the last half dozen Codex.
Both the Eldar and Tau have issues, but those are considered the remaining broken ones from what I can tell.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Ironically, a DK with a Gatling Psilencer kills Riptides fairly well, all the 'Tide has to do is fail one save, then poof!

SJ

Have to pass the requisite psychic check, not to hard. Has to hit, gonna hit about 9 times. Wounds on 6's, ouch that takes you down to one wound a turn while shooting. They have to fail a 2+ leaving you with one Riptide in every 6 turns...Not fairly well at all. DK has a better time just running up and forcing it in the face with its melee weapons.

From what I've seen from what people and you say about your gaming group.

GET SOME TERRAIN AND USE LOS BLOCKING COVER.

That is all.

How about the HQ LRBT Vanquisher from IA:1 2ed? Load'em up with S8, AP2, Instant Death, Beast Hunter shells and watch those Riptides go poof from across the table!

Vanquisher tanks with Beast Hunter shells.

You can buy them in a 400-point allied detachment.

Do riptides really put out that much damage? They should only be getting around 2-3 kills a turn, especially if you turn off their markerlight support. Ignoring them is an option unless they are sitting on an objective.
If the riptide is getting more kills than this then your squads are not spread out enough.

Kill the markerlights, broadsides, crisis suits and fire warriors first. They in my experience deal most of the damage in a tau army. They are also the units who will be holding most of the objectives. Once they are gone the riptide can be dealt with at your leisure.

I think a drop pod list would do fine against tau, as they lack mobility in large numbers, especially with objective secured units. Drop those pods on the objectives and watch the tau struggle to keep up with your VPs.

Let the sternguard use their kraken shots against the firewarriors to mow them down fast. And any melta squads to shooting their T8 suits.

The best shooting option for killing riptides in the book is grav bikes imo. Slightly more than 100 points gets you 3 bikes with 2 grav guns and a combi grav.

Have you considered an LRC btw? When I play my DW against tau my 2 landraiders are the difference between victory or slaughter. Tau cannot deal with them at range (besides 1 hammerhead shot a turn, which is statistically not too bad), and they will grant whatever squad inside (like a cc equipped DC squad) total immunity to the riptide. It also has the great effect of providing a mobile wall for other units to advance behind (say.....a unit of grav gun bikes?).

 Quickjager wrote:
Making a thread targeting someone specifically reeks of attempted bullying there is nothing in this thread that could not have been discussed in an existing one. Frankly its disgusting.

When I created the thread that honestly wasn't my attempt. I genuinely wanted to offer constructive ideas.
I know I haven't suggested much just yet, I am still planning and had to sleep last night.

I apologise Martel if you feel in anyway bullied as a result of my thread creation.

 Smokeydubbs wrote:
From what I've seen from what people and you say about your gaming group.

GET SOME TERRAIN AND USE LOS BLOCKING COVER.

That is all.

We use lots of terrain. Just not very much blocks LOS. Of course, LOS blocking cover also hurts drop lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Do riptides really put out that much damage? They should only be getting around 2-3 kills a turn, especially if you turn off their markerlight support. Ignoring them is an option unless they are sitting on an objective.
If the riptide is getting more kills than this then your squads are not spread out enough.

Kill the markerlights, broadsides, crisis suits and fire warriors first. They in my experience deal most of the damage in a tau army. They are also the units who will be holding most of the objectives. Once they are gone the riptide can be dealt with at your leisure.

I think a drop pod list would do fine against tau, as they lack mobility in large numbers, especially with objective secured units. Drop those pods on the objectives and watch the tau struggle to keep up with your VPs.

Let the sternguard use their kraken shots against the firewarriors to mow them down fast. And any melta squads to shooting their T8 suits.

The best shooting option for killing riptides in the book is grav bikes imo. Slightly more than 100 points gets you 3 bikes with 2 grav guns and a combi grav.

Have you considered an LRC btw? When I play my DW against tau my 2 landraiders are the difference between victory or slaughter. Tau cannot deal with them at range (besides 1 hammerhead shot a turn, which is statistically not too bad), and they will grant whatever squad inside (like a cc equipped DC squad) total immunity to the riptide. It also has the great effect of providing a mobile wall for other units to advance behind (say.....a unit of grav gun bikes?).

I have a LRC, but I'm likely never going to put it in my TAC list. I kinda hate Land Raiders in general because of their overcostedness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Boniface wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Making a thread targeting someone specifically reeks of attempted bullying there is nothing in this thread that could not have been discussed in an existing one. Frankly its disgusting.

When I created the thread that honestly wasn't my attempt. I genuinely wanted to offer constructive ideas.
I know I haven't suggested much just yet, I am still planning and had to sleep last night.

I apologise Martel if you feel in anyway bullied as a result of my thread creation.

No, no. I said up above that I didn't care about the name.

"If the riptide is getting more kills than this then your squads are not spread out enough. "

I'd have to sit down and think about this. This is one reason I don't like to deep strike with jump packs, though.

7th edition landraiders are much better than before, now that it can hold an objective (and normally keep objective secured stuff away with its size too) they are more worth those 250 points than ever before.

To be honest I consider them to be a counter to most tau lists.

If you haven't tried it since last edition, then I would recommend giving it a second chance.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Do riptides really put out that much damage? They should only be getting around 2-3 kills a turn, especially if you turn off their markerlight support. Ignoring them is an option unless they are sitting on an objective.
If the riptide is getting more kills than this then your squads are not spread out enough.

The Riptide is throwing out a 5" templates at S8 AP2 out to 72"... how is the Riptide only getting 2-3 kills a turn? The low BS of a Riptide becomes an asset in this circumstance as it can (and usually does!) deviate onto even MORE models in other units that are not the target of the original attack.

Kill the markerlights, broadsides, crisis suits and fire warriors first. They in my experience deal most of the damage in a tau army. They are also the units who will be holding most of the objectives. Once they are gone the riptide can be dealt with at your leisure.

This is sound advice, except what are the Tau doing to you in return? Kill the Markerlights should be the #1 objective of any player facing the Tau. The bad news is that it's one Marker light in a unit of 12 Fire Warriors, or 6 Marker Lights in a unit of Pathfinders, or a full unit of Drones with Markerlights... in my 1500 point list, I have 12+ Markerlights. In it's current incarnation, I have 15 or 18? I'd have to go check. Because of the long range on the Markerlights (36"), you won't have enough firepower to remove enough of them in one turn until you get close, and the basic Tau Pulse Rifle has a range of 30"... except for that one unit of Fire Warriors where it's 36". The Broadsides have the range of the table as well- and they don't need line of sight to hit you with missiles. If they have Rail Guns, they'll just sit in the back of the deployment zone and pop anything in LOS. Crisis Suits? Slippery bastards that have fantastic maneuverability. Weight of Firepower will take them down, but the amount of fire power required means you are not shooting at Markerlights, Broadsides, or Fire Warriors.

Ignoring a Riptide until end game, like turn 4-5 means the Tau player will have placed 4-5 large templates on your army. If the Riptide player hasn't removed 2-3 squads of MEQ's by then, he is playing the Riptide wrong (or the MEQ player is being ultra conservative by staying out of LoS or in cover- but there are work arounds for that too.

I think a drop pod list would do fine against tau, as they lack mobility in large numbers, especially with objective secured units. Drop those pods on the objectives and watch the tau struggle to keep up with your VPs.

Best advice right there. Smart placement of objectives within cover and drop podding onto/nearby those objectives and playing the VP game. When you make the Tau come to you, they usually don't fare that well.

Let the sternguard use their kraken shots against the firewarriors to mow them down fast. And any melta squads to shooting their T8 suits.

You only get 1 shot/round with the Kraken Bolters, and you will be in range of the Pulse Rifles. Assuming 10 shots with the Kraken Bolts, 6.67 hits, 5.00 wounds with no saves. Return fire: 3.5 hits (assuming no Markerlights), 2.8 wounds, all saves. Now, that's just the return fire from the unit the Sternguard shot at. As a Tau player, I won't let the Sternguard live past the next shooting round simply because I can't let a unit like that get close to me. But hey, at least your 240 point unit was able to kill about 50 points of Fire Warriors before it was wiped out... You wanna kill Fire Warriors? A Whirlwind, or a a Devastator Squad with 4 ML's would be far more effective then the Sternguard (and cheaper too).

The best shooting option for killing riptides in the book is grav bikes imo. Slightly more than 100 points gets you 3 bikes with 2 grav guns and a combi grav.

I'd also add Centurians with Gravcannons. The problem is getting into that 24" range... and that the Riptide has 6 wounds...

Have you considered an LRC btw? When I play my DW against tau my 2 landraiders are the difference between victory or slaughter. Tau cannot deal with them at range (besides 1 hammerhead shot a turn, which is statistically not too bad), and they will grant whatever squad inside (like a cc equipped DC squad) total immunity to the riptide. It also has the great effect of providing a mobile wall for other units to advance behind (say.....a unit of grav gun bikes?).

My meta uses a lot of Land Raiders and Necron Monoliths, and while I don't prepare for multiple Land Raiders, I always have a Heavy Railgun armed Broadside or Commander Longstrike sitting in his Hammerhead taking pot shots at such targets. The other thing to think about is this: Space Marines have Drop Pods and like to use a suicide Drop Pod squad with Melta's or Plasma to take out big stuff. Well, Tau can do it too, in the form of a couple Crisis Suits armed with Fusion Blasters. For a little over 100 points, I can get two Crisis Suits with a total of 4 Fusion Blasters that can Deep Strike and pull off the suicide tactic just as well as any MEQ army.

I have struggled against a "Wall of Armor" before- three Necron Monoliths line abreast with a couple Night Sythes, a unit of Destroyers, and a unit of Wraiths marching up the table at me. I lost that game, but it was more because Longstrike couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with his cannon and I kept rolling 1's and 2's with my Fusion Blasters against the Monoliths.

There is a lot of sound advice in this thread, and it does work against a Tau player, but just realize that a Tau player worth his salt is never going to just let you walk all over him like that. I know what the weaknesses of my army are, and I'm going to use sound strategy in my deployment and targeting of threats along with good tactics to minimize those weaknesses and eliminate those threats to prevent you from exploiting my weaknesses.

/edit Longstrike, Farstrike, whatever that awesome 45 point upgrade is to a Hammerhead is named and I always take him...

How about a Spartan with ceremite transporting a squad of DC or th/ss termies and mephiston? Dante hiding behind as it advances. T1 turbo boost 18", turn 2 move 6", disembark 6", charge. Mephy charges one squad, th/ss charge a riptide, dante charges another squad/riptide.
Another method would be to put dante in an assault squad, and charge straight towards the riptide, unless the opponent focuses all their firepower on the squad, Dante will make it across the board for a T2 charge. If he does the riptide is dead.
Lastly a typhon with ceremite. Forget the gun and go hell for leather towards the riptide. Thunderblitz it for a 1/3 chance of an auto remove. Plus Thunderblitzing whatever else is in its turbo boost path. You now have a st10 ap1 ignores cover pie plate maker in your opponents deployment zone with incredible Thunderblitzing rules if you don't want to use the gun.

I don't own Forgeworld, but I do have a LRC.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't own Forgeworld, but I do have a LRC.

Not quite the same, especially with lack of ceremite. May still work though.

Poly Ranger wrote:
How about a Spartan with ceremite transporting a squad of DC or th/ss termies and mephiston? Dante hiding behind as it advances. T1 turbo boost 18", turn 2 move 6", disembark 6", charge. Mephy charges one squad, th/ss charge a riptide, dante charges another squad/riptide.
Another method would be to put dante in an assault squad, and charge straight towards the riptide, unless the opponent focuses all their firepower on the squad, Dante will make it across the board for a T2 charge. If he does the riptide is dead.
Lastly a typhon with ceremite. Forget the gun and go hell for leather towards the riptide. Thunderblitz it for a 1/3 chance of an auto remove. Plus Thunderblitzing whatever else is in its turbo boost path. You now have a st10 ap1 ignores cover pie plate maker in your opponents deployment zone with incredible Thunderblitzing rules if you don't want to use the gun.

I think this general concept is how you deal with riptides. Find some way to assault them. That's what ive found always works the best, either with massed jump infantry or heavily armored transports.

The spartan is so good in BA.

The Riptide is throwing out a 5" templates at S8 AP2 out to 72"... how is the Riptide only getting 2-3 kills a turn? The low BS of a Riptide becomes an asset in this circumstance as it can (and usually does!) deviate onto even MORE models in other units that are not the target of the original attack.

If the Riptide player hasn't removed 2-3 squads of MEQ's by then, he is playing the Riptide wrong

Seriously? Do you opponents know their models can stand 2 inches apart? Or have they just swapped over from WFB and are still using movement trays?

I'm really hurt that Martel didn't ask me.

As a Blood Angels player who also plays Tau let me say that drop pod lists are the best plan against them. One of the few times I lost with my Tau was to a SM drop pod list with some flaming death from Mr Salamander Vulcan Hes'tan himself. Here is the trick:

You want a Tactical squad with triple flamers to take out pathfinders in a drop pod
You want something to take out the riptide. 10 Sternguard all with combi-plasma's will do. Once again in a drop pod.
You want a small assault squad with triple melta for hammerheads/skyrays in a drop pod.
You want some AP2 to take out Boradsides and also some some arms fire to take out their drones. If you can get it in a drop pod then bonus points.
You then use the rest of you fast attack slots to take empty pods so you can get all your meaty goodness in first turn.

Jobs a good one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Marine units are too expensive to throw them away like that.

This is what I have found as well. I don't understand how these lists are not being blown apart in piecemeal. In fact, that is my exact battle plan against SW drop. The first ones drop in, shoot me. Then my army kills them. The next wave comes in, shoots me, then my army kills them. Repeat until they are out of pods. It sounds like everything is predicated on Xenos or whomever not being able to maul 30 meqs in one round of point blank shooting. Or in my case, BA shooting followed by a visit from the DC.

Not piecemeal if you buy those empty pods from the fast attack slot. They help to bump all the meat into first turn. Trust me, 5 pods means you get 3 units right in you opponents face first turn. Also make it count by hurting him where it hurts. Kill those pathfinders with flamer goodness and kill that riptide and blow up that hammerhead with Longstrike in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
7th edition landraiders are much better than before, now that it can hold an objective (and normally keep objective secured stuff away with its size too) they are more worth those 250 points than ever before.

To be honest I consider them to be a counter to most tau lists.

If you haven't tried it since last edition, then I would recommend giving it a second chance.

High armour AV14 is a bit of a nuisance for Tau. When I'm building my Tau list I try and fit in some crisis suits with dual fusion blasters because I am pretty much counting on that being my AV14 counter. If I really need to I can also nova charge the ion accelerator on my Riptide.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot I take Longstrike and his hammerhead in my list as well. So I generally have 3 sources to have a go at any AV14.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
"Storm shields might let me get one unit through, but they won't help against the pulse rifles."

By that logic why even take Storm Shields since ethey will do to bolters...

My assumption is that the Tau player is not brain dead. They will pie plate the units with no storm shields and then shoot the storm shield guys with pulse rifles. Because doing it the other way around is stupid.

My point still stands; why take them when a marine player will pie plate the units without storm shields and shoot their bolters at the storm shield guys?

That's why I don't use storm shields.

That's why I don't not use Storm Shields. No squads with just the 5++ for the AP2 artillery to pie plate.

Though I play Deathwing so I can put Storm Shield guys in front of the guns.

Fragile wrote:

 Wolfedi wrote:
This pretty much sums it up.

It really doesn't. Riptides are pretty easy to handle.

QFT.

I think a lot of people are still suffering from PTSD after they faced a buffmander dual riptide star. That, I can understand the hate against.

Normal riptides are now good, but nothing to get upset over.

Personally I'd rather see a riptide than a squad of missilesides. The riptide is tougher to kill, but the missilesides damage output is much better vs almost all targets.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Wolfedi wrote:
This pretty much sums it up.

It really doesn't. Riptides are pretty easy to handle.

QFT.

I think a lot of people are still suffering from PTSD after they faced a buffmander dual riptide star. That, I can understand the hate against.

Normal riptides are now good, but nothing to get upset over.

Personally I'd rather see a riptide than a squad of missilesides. The riptide is tougher to kill, but the missilesides damage output is much better vs almost all targets.

I'd like to see the data on total damage caused by both, because missilesides are much easier to get off the board.

Martel732 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Wolfedi wrote:
This pretty much sums it up.

It really doesn't. Riptides are pretty easy to handle.

QFT.

I think a lot of people are still suffering from PTSD after they faced a buffmander dual riptide star. That, I can understand the hate against.

Normal riptides are now good, but nothing to get upset over.

Personally I'd rather see a riptide than a squad of missilesides. The riptide is tougher to kill, but the missilesides damage output is much better vs almost all targets.

I'd like to see the data on total damage caused by both, because missilesides are much easier to get off the board.

Its difficult to measure the exact damage of the riptide due to it using a plate weapon.

Personally I find the missilesides are better vs MEQ if they are in cover, and about the same if the riptide ignores it. Riptide would still probably win out vs TEQ, though the amount of saves the missilesides do cause is still quite considerable.
Against 4+ saves there is no contest, the missilesides will absolutely destroy the riptide.

One thing to note is that the missilesides can still get a buffmander with them. 12 str 7, twinlinked cover-ignoring, tankhunting missiles, which can possibly be fired at different targets is a scary thing. Even wave serpents have to get out of range or be eaten up n 1 turn of shooting.

They are much less maneuverable of course and easier to take out.

Still, with my armies they give me more trouble than the riptide. A few turns of those guys shooting is normally more game changing than a whole game of riptide fire.

That's why I try not to let them shoot more than once or twice. Most people in my meta put FNP in the Riptide, so there is little value in shooting at it I guess, as the worst it ever is is 5++/5+++. Is it fair to say the Riptide is more frustrating than the missilesides?

Shooting it even with heavy weapons is often not worth the effort, and there are usually better targets, and the thing is usually sitting behind ruins.

I'd say give psychic powers a go if nothing else is working for you, and aim for psychic shriek, terrify and invisibility

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Shooting it even with heavy weapons is often not worth the effort, and there are usually better targets, and the thing is usually sitting behind ruins.

I'd say give psychic powers a go if nothing else is working for you, and aim for psychic shriek, terrify and invisibility

BA get none of those. There is, however, fear the darkness.

Lot of people are saying drop pod/deep striking stuff, but a lot of players take interceptors with riptides or broadsides or both.

And getting large blast str 8 ap2 dropped on deep striking units before they can even draw can be pretty unpleasant.

In order for pods to work you need threat overload. My SM pod list drops 4 Ironclad dreads with heavy flamers on turn 1. From here I either roast any bubble wrap, or smoke up and prepare for a turn 2 assault. The second wave of reserves includes tactical pods for objectives, storm talons and legion of the damned For fire support and anti tank.

Allied Vanquisher with beast hunter shells.

Seriously.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Wolfedi wrote:
This pretty much sums it up.

It really doesn't. Riptides are pretty easy to handle.

QFT.

I think a lot of people are still suffering from PTSD after they faced a buffmander dual riptide star. That, I can understand the hate against.

Normal riptides are now good, but nothing to get upset over.

Personally I'd rather see a riptide than a squad of missilesides. The riptide is tougher to kill, but the missilesides damage output is much better vs almost all targets.

This^

Sometime I run two squads of missilesides in my 2000 point list and the damage output they do is very good. Only weakness is they can't deal with AV14, so that's why I have a Hammerhead with Longstrike in the 3rd Heavy slot and I take Fusion Crisis Suits and an Ion Accelerator Riptide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When playing against Tau you need to analyse what in his list is causing the damage and take it out. Missilesides do cause a lot of damage and they are worth taking out. Even without Pathfinder support those twin linked weapons are still hitting an awful lot of times and the high strength of the weapons means they wound relatively easy on most things.

Martel732 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Shooting it even with heavy weapons is often not worth the effort, and there are usually better targets, and the thing is usually sitting behind ruins.

I'd say give psychic powers a go if nothing else is working for you, and aim for psychic shriek, terrify and invisibility

BA get none of those. There is, however, fear the darkness.

I thought BA didn't get pyromancy, but got divination instead.

Do BA not get telepathy?

 Crazyterran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Shooting it even with heavy weapons is often not worth the effort, and there are usually better targets, and the thing is usually sitting behind ruins.

I'd say give psychic powers a go if nothing else is working for you, and aim for psychic shriek, terrify and invisibility

BA get none of those. There is, however, fear the darkness.

I thought BA didn't get pyromancy, but got divination instead.

Do BA not get telepathy?

No telepathy.