Just because something is flat doesn't mean it lacks depth. The earth could still be hollow and flat. Anyway, if the earth isn't hollow then where do the ufos come from?
Just because something is flat doesn't mean it lacks depth. The earth could still be hollow and flat. Anyway, if the earth isn't hollow then where do the ufos come from?
The moon, didn't you know it's just a big spaceship.
Just because something is flat doesn't mean it lacks depth. The earth could still be hollow and flat. Anyway, if the earth isn't hollow then where do the ufos come from?
The moon, didn't you know it's just a big spaceship.
No,
the UFO's come from Mars & Venus.
See Christians and Muslims have common flat ground
The irony is, he uses a plane in his example. Which would imply that he might have been on a plane, and noticed how his coffee did not suddenly flit to the rear at 400 mph. Could it be that the same forces that make coffee appear stationary while on a fast moving plane, also make planes appear stationary on a fast moving Earth? For a plane to remain truly "still" relative to the Earth, as he suggests, and wait for China to come to it, the plane would need to burn huge amounts of fuel in order to overcome that initial inertia and slow down (to say nothing of the atmosphere).
Interestingly, scientist have used the cosmic background radiation to measure the speed of The Earth, going around The Sun, going around The Galaxy, flying through The Universe. The CBR is about the closest thing we have to a fixed point, and our actual speed is about 1.3 million miles per hour.
No Flat Earthers here to agree with him? I am disappointed, Dakka!
The Earth cannot be hollow if it is flat!
It's both simultaneously... Seriously, the Earth is like a giant Oreo cookie... It just so happens that when you travel over the "edge" the switch happens so quickly you don't even notice it happening!
While everyone recognises this guy is a complete idiot, it's interesting to note how much his argument relies on the same kind of 'common sense' anecdotes that the anti-science arguments uses in supposed controversies like vaccination and climate change. Next time you hear someone trying to challenge the scientific establishment with arguments from common sense, just remember it's the same kind of crap that led at least one idiot to believe the Earth doesn't rotate the Sun.
david choe wrote: Is it just my computer or the guy is speaking in arabic.... so how can any of you guys know he is talking about the earth?
Oh it is a joke right?
I've not watched the embedded version, but I've seen a translated one.
It's not a joke.
I train Royal Saudi Air Force personnel out in KSA.
One of the flight training navigation manuals states "For the purposes of this training exercise we will assume the earth is round"
marv335 wrote: I train Royal Saudi Air Force personnel out in KSA.
One of the flight training navigation manuals states "For the purposes of this training exercise we will assume the earth is round"
Well, tecnically it's legitimate, cause earth not spherical, it's more of an ellipsoid.
Just because something is flat doesn't mean it lacks depth. The earth could still be hollow and flat. Anyway, if the earth isn't hollow then where do the ufos come from?
The moon, didn't you know it's just a big spaceship.
No,
the UFO's come from Mars & Venus.
See Christians and Muslims have common flat ground
Fools! UFO's are coming out of the Ocean, from their secret bases in Hollow Earth! They live their with the Lizardmen, they only leave to lay down chem trails and abduct civilians for "testing".
david choe wrote: Is it just my computer or the guy is speaking in arabic.... so how can any of you guys know he is talking about the earth?
Oh it is a joke right?
I train Royal Saudi Air Force personnel out in KSA.
One of the flight training navigation manuals states "For the purposes of this training exercise we will assume the earth is round"
There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western. I read an article describing how Iran and others deny that the moon landing ever happened, the evidence doesn't matter to the people in power, if the west claims it as an achievement then they must say otherwise. I was skeptical how far this actually convinced their populations but in a class recently when the question was put to them, the half a dozen that did not agree were boys from middle Eastern countries.
Counties in the east were a great source of science thousands of years ago, they had mathematicians, scientists snd scholars. But there's no pride in any of these values because it doesn't suit the interests of clerics, religious leaders and those in power. That's why they don't believe in education or free expression and thought.
There's still a lot of Americans who claim the Moon landing never happened. It's not just a Middle East thing.
Religious extremism often has an anti-science/anti-intellectual angle to it... Islam isn't alone in that, we have plenty of Christian fundamentalists here in the US making similar statements, apparently now including a group who believes that dinosaurs were never real.
Psienesis wrote: There's still a lot of Americans who claim the Moon landing never happened. It's not just a Middle East thing.
Religious extremism often has an anti-science/anti-intellectual angle to it... Islam isn't alone in that, we have plenty of Christian fundamentalists here in the US making similar statements, apparently now including a group who believes that dinosaurs were never real.
Hell, that's nothing new (sadly). Bill Hicks was making jokes at their expense in the early 90's. NSFW, and possibly offensive to some...
Psienesis wrote: There's still a lot of Americans who claim the Moon landing never happened. It's not just a Middle East thing.
Religious extremism often has an anti-science/anti-intellectual angle to it... Islam isn't alone in that, we have plenty of Christian fundamentalists here in the US making similar statements, apparently now including a group who believes that dinosaurs were never real.
The denial is not state endorsed though. Evolution, for example, is doubted in spite of state education rather than because of it.
david choe wrote: Is it just my computer or the guy is speaking in arabic.... so how can any of you guys know he is talking about the earth?
Oh it is a joke right?
If you run some of the comments, from the video thru a translator.
You get to realize
A what he's talking about.
B his fellow arabic speaking posters think he's an idiot.
marv335 wrote: I train Royal Saudi Air Force personnel out in KSA.
One of the flight training navigation manuals states "For the purposes of this training exercise we will assume the earth is round"
Well, tecnically it's legitimate, cause earth not spherical, it's more of an ellipsoid.
Listen she might be a little wide around the middle, but there's no need to be insulting.
Listen she might be a little wide around the middle, but there's no need to be insulting.
It's not about insulting Terra, it about insulting stupid soldaten ( ) who can not comprehend a slight difference in translating latitude and longitude to distance, and instead have to use spherical coordinates
Psienesis wrote: There's still a lot of Americans who claim the Moon landing never happened. It's not just a Middle East thing.
Religious extremism often has an anti-science/anti-intellectual angle to it... Islam isn't alone in that, we have plenty of Christian fundamentalists here in the US making similar statements, apparently now including a group who believes that dinosaurs were never real.
The denial is not state endorsed though. Evolution, for example, is doubted in spite of state education rather than because of it.
That's because we live in a liberal democracy... but don't doubt that, should certain members of certain political parties in the US come to power, as is happening right now, today, in Tennessee, that science will be tossed out in favor of theocratic beliefs.
Listen she might be a little wide around the middle, but there's no need to be insulting.
It's not about insulting Terra, it about insulting stupid soldaten ( ) who can not comprehend a slight difference in translating latitude and longitude to distance, and instead have to use spherical coordinates
Smacks wrote: The irony is, he uses a plane in his example. Which would imply that he might have been on a plane, and noticed how his coffee did not suddenly flit to the rear at 400 mph. Could it be that the same forces that make coffee appear stationary while on a fast moving plane, also make planes appear stationary on a fast moving Earth? For a plane to remain truly "still" relative to the Earth, as he suggests, and wait for China to come to it, the plane would need to burn huge amounts of fuel in order to overcome that initial inertia and slow down (to say nothing of the atmosphere).
Interestingly, scientist have used the cosmic background radiation to measure the speed of The Earth, going around The Sun, going around The Galaxy, flying through The Universe. The CBR is about the closest thing we have to a fixed point, and our actual speed is about 1.3 million miles per hour.
Everyone get some red spray paint and spray the oceans, because we all know Red Earthz go FASTA!
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Psienesis wrote: There's still a lot of Americans who claim the Moon landing never happened. It's not just a Middle East thing.
Religious extremism often has an anti-science/anti-intellectual angle to it... Islam isn't alone in that, we have plenty of Christian fundamentalists here in the US making similar statements, apparently now including a group who believes that dinosaurs were never real.
We know they were real. Its right there in the Bible. Frazzled 2.17: "And Sweet Baby Jebus did travel far across the land with his pet Utahraptors Alpha, Charlie, and Echo. And the Angel of Light did appear to Sweet baby Jebus and tempt him with ice cream. But Sweet Baby jebus would hear none of it, and did smote Lucifer with his Ruger Blackhawk .44, and verily. "
Howard A Treesong wrote: The denial is not state endorsed though. Evolution, for example, is doubted in spite of state education rather than because of it.
It is Saudi Arabia. The total nutcases are in power, and the U.S. helped them get here and still helps them stay there. So what would you expect?
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It also goes beyond that as well. 9/10 I bet you that the cleric in the OP is a Wahabi. While Wahabism in itself isn't anti-intellectua per se, a common by product of the doctrine is a profound distrust and ignorance of anything remotely academic (except for religion).
This is a big problem in Saudi Arabia, as Wahabism is the state religion for all intents and purposes.
We've done some really stupid stuff to the world (Isreal, Afghanistan, India, etc).
But, while the Middle East is making odd claims and butchering everyone they feel like, we get a bit of leeway.
To our credit though, a lot of the ME's leaders (Saudi's royals?) were educated here, but that hardly matters to some of them.
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western. I read an article describing how Iran and others deny that the moon landing ever happened, the evidence doesn't matter to the people in power, if the west claims it as an achievement then they must say otherwise. I was skeptical how far this actually convinced their populations but in a class recently when the question was put to them, the half a dozen that did not agree were boys from middle Eastern countries..
I've encountered some similar views here and there.
You know, compare his earth idea, to the statements recently made by State Senator Tom Corbin, Tell me this guy wouldn't fit in with the republican party. He could probably be on the science committee with the other creationists.
jreilly89 wrote: Oh, did we step back into the Medieval Ages? Thank God I'm white
There was a great standup bit about this - I think Louis CK - about how one of the benefits of being white - white privilege, as it were; is free access to enjoying time travel, whereas a black guy is going to be like "um.... No, nothing really before 1970 or so, thanks."
Psienesis wrote: but don't doubt that, should certain members of certain political parties in the US come to power, as is happening right now, today, in Tennessee, that science will be tossed out in favor of theocratic beliefs.
If he repeated the exact same stuff he said in that video, but replaced "allah" with "jesus", and indicated a distaste for the EPA, he'd probably be the current GOP frontrunner.
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It is not just the Middle East. I have read that the leader of Boko Haram in Africa also claims The Earth is flat, largely in defiance of western teachings. What I find most disturbing about this stuff is that, unlike evolution which happens very slowly, the motion of the stars an planets is something you can observe yourself. The observations of scientists can be empirically tested with little more than a sextant and some determination. This is made super easy with the assistance of stargazing apps. The fact that smart phones with sat-nav even exists should be evidence enough that the person who put the satellites there knows their gak.
I'm reminded of the (apocryphal) anecdote about Aristotle. His statement that flies have four legs was repeated in natural history texts for more than a thousand years, despite the fact that a little counting would have proven otherwise. Why take people's word when you can just check yourself?
Counties in the east were a great source of science thousands of years ago, they had mathematicians, scientists snd scholars. But there's no pride in any of these values because it doesn't suit the interests of clerics, religious leaders and those in power. That's why they don't believe in education or free expression and thought.
I think that door swings both ways. Are people made ignorant by the power of religious leaders, or are religious leaders made powerful by people's ignorance. I remember as a child (about 11) plotting the positions of nearby stars onto a map, with nothing but a protractor and a book by Patrick Moore that listed their declination and hour angle. Granted, I did have a book, but it wasn't part of my education, and certainly not something my parents were interested in, I just wanted to know for myself. When I look back at ancient people, I'm constantly in awe of what they were able to achieve with so little. Even the simple neolithic people that built Stonehenge had the mental capacity to make calenders and accurately predict the solstice. When I look at modern people I'm constantly amazed by how dumb they are. Most people I meet, even in the UK, don't know anything, and they're not interested in knowing anything. They stare all day at TVs, phones and computers, and it never occurs to them to find out how those things work, even though the answer is literally a click away. They don't know the words for trees or flowers, or understand why spiders aren't insects. When I moved house I had to endure a mandatory lecture by the estate agent about how mould spreads because it is a "kind of bacteria". I corrected him that mould is caused by fungus, but my words were just met with a dumb expression and went straight over his head. The real tragedy is not that people are stupid, but that not-stupid people can't get a safer distance away from them all.
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It is not just the Middle East. I have read that the leader of Boko Haram in Africa also claims The Earth is flat, largely in defiance of western teachings.
The biggest irony being that the entire Western education system is arguably built on the Arabic scholars of the middle ages. Even if western education were to be forbidden, as they want, they'd still have to deal with the fact that their own great scientists came to the same conclusion as those of the "decadent West".
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It is not just the Middle East. I have read that the leader of Boko Haram in Africa also claims The Earth is flat, largely in defiance of western teachings. What I find most disturbing about this stuff is that, unlike evolution which happens very slowly, the motion of the stars an planets is something you can observe yourself. The observations of scientists can be empirically tested with little more than a sextant and some determination. This is made super easy with the assistance of stargazing apps. The fact that smart phones with sat-nav even exists should be evidence enough that the person who put the satellites there knows their gak.
I'm reminded of the (apocryphal) anecdote about Aristotle. His statement that flies have four legs was repeated in natural history texts for more than a thousand years, despite the fact that a little counting would have proven otherwise. Why take people's word when you can just check yourself?
Counties in the east were a great source of science thousands of years ago, they had mathematicians, scientists snd scholars. But there's no pride in any of these values because it doesn't suit the interests of clerics, religious leaders and those in power. That's why they don't believe in education or free expression and thought.
I think that door swings both ways. Are people made ignorant by the power of religious leaders, or are religious leaders made powerful by people's ignorance. I remember as a child (about 11) plotting the positions of nearby stars onto a map, with nothing but a protractor and a book by Patrick Moore that listed their declination and hour angle. Granted, I did have a book, but it wasn't part of my education, and certainly not something my parents were interested in, I just wanted to know for myself. When I look back at ancient people, I'm constantly in awe of what they were able to achieve with so little. Even the simple neolithic people that built Stonehenge had the mental capacity to make calenders and accurately predict the solstice. When I look at modern people I'm constantly amazed by how dumb they are. Most people I meet, even in the UK, don't know anything, and they're not interested in knowing anything. They stare all day at TVs, phones and computers, and it never occurs to them to find out how those things work, even though the answer is literally a click away. They don't know the words for trees or flowers, or understand why spiders aren't insects. When I moved house I had to endure a mandatory lecture by the estate agent about how mould spreads because it is a "kind of bacteria". I corrected him that mould is caused by fungus, but my words were just met with a dumb expression and went straight over his head. The real tragedy is not that people are stupid, but that not-stupid people can't get a safer distance away from them all.
The Chinese discover the earth was round before the west by a few 100s years.
You think the Middle East is anti western knowledge...lol, the west is just as ignorance with the discovery of truth.
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It is not just the Middle East. I have read that the leader of Boko Haram in Africa also claims The Earth is flat, largely in defiance of western teachings. What I find most disturbing about this stuff is that, unlike evolution which happens very slowly, the motion of the stars an planets is something you can observe yourself. The observations of scientists can be empirically tested with little more than a sextant and some determination. This is made super easy with the assistance of stargazing apps. The fact that smart phones with sat-nav even exists should be evidence enough that the person who put the satellites there knows their gak.
I'm reminded of the (apocryphal) anecdote about Aristotle. His statement that flies have four legs was repeated in natural history texts for more than a thousand years, despite the fact that a little counting would have proven otherwise. Why take people's word when you can just check yourself?
Counties in the east were a great source of science thousands of years ago, they had mathematicians, scientists snd scholars. But there's no pride in any of these values because it doesn't suit the interests of clerics, religious leaders and those in power. That's why they don't believe in education or free expression and thought.
I think that door swings both ways. Are people made ignorant by the power of religious leaders, or are religious leaders made powerful by people's ignorance. I remember as a child (about 11) plotting the positions of nearby stars onto a map, with nothing but a protractor and a book by Patrick Moore that listed their declination and hour angle. Granted, I did have a book, but it wasn't part of my education, and certainly not something my parents were interested in, I just wanted to know for myself. When I look back at ancient people, I'm constantly in awe of what they were able to achieve with so little. Even the simple neolithic people that built Stonehenge had the mental capacity to make calenders and accurately predict the solstice. When I look at modern people I'm constantly amazed by how dumb they are. Most people I meet, even in the UK, don't know anything, and they're not interested in knowing anything. They stare all day at TVs, phones and computers, and it never occurs to them to find out how those things work, even though the answer is literally a click away. They don't know the words for trees or flowers, or understand why spiders aren't insects. When I moved house I had to endure a mandatory lecture by the estate agent about how mould spreads because it is a "kind of bacteria". I corrected him that mould is caused by fungus, but my words were just met with a dumb expression and went straight over his head. The real tragedy is not that people are stupid, but that not-stupid people can't get a safer distance away from them all.
The Chinese discover the earth was round before the west by a few 100s years.
Source on that? Seeing as Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, already knowing that the earth was round, we're talking so far back in time that records start becoming rather spotty.
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It is not just the Middle East. I have read that the leader of Boko Haram in Africa also claims The Earth is flat, largely in defiance of western teachings. What I find most disturbing about this stuff is that, unlike evolution which happens very slowly, the motion of the stars an planets is something you can observe yourself. The observations of scientists can be empirically tested with little more than a sextant and some determination. This is made super easy with the assistance of stargazing apps. The fact that smart phones with sat-nav even exists should be evidence enough that the person who put the satellites there knows their gak.
I'm reminded of the (apocryphal) anecdote about Aristotle. His statement that flies have four legs was repeated in natural history texts for more than a thousand years, despite the fact that a little counting would have proven otherwise. Why take people's word when you can just check yourself?
Counties in the east were a great source of science thousands of years ago, they had mathematicians, scientists snd scholars. But there's no pride in any of these values because it doesn't suit the interests of clerics, religious leaders and those in power. That's why they don't believe in education or free expression and thought.
I think that door swings both ways. Are people made ignorant by the power of religious leaders, or are religious leaders made powerful by people's ignorance. I remember as a child (about 11) plotting the positions of nearby stars onto a map, with nothing but a protractor and a book by Patrick Moore that listed their declination and hour angle. Granted, I did have a book, but it wasn't part of my education, and certainly not something my parents were interested in, I just wanted to know for myself. When I look back at ancient people, I'm constantly in awe of what they were able to achieve with so little. Even the simple neolithic people that built Stonehenge had the mental capacity to make calenders and accurately predict the solstice. When I look at modern people I'm constantly amazed by how dumb they are. Most people I meet, even in the UK, don't know anything, and they're not interested in knowing anything. They stare all day at TVs, phones and computers, and it never occurs to them to find out how those things work, even though the answer is literally a click away. They don't know the words for trees or flowers, or understand why spiders aren't insects. When I moved house I had to endure a mandatory lecture by the estate agent about how mould spreads because it is a "kind of bacteria". I corrected him that mould is caused by fungus, but my words were just met with a dumb expression and went straight over his head. The real tragedy is not that people are stupid, but that not-stupid people can't get a safer distance away from them all.
The Chinese discover the earth was round before the west by a few 100s years.
Source on that? Seeing as Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, already knowing that the earth was round, we're talking so far back in time that records start becoming rather spotty.
Let's don't make this a race. If Columbus people still think that you can fall off the earth, then the discovery is not public knowledge.
I do not know who was the first who discover the round earth theory.
All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.
My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.
And I'm sure the Saudi clergy's statements on astrophysics have a dramatic and damaging effect on your daily life.
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david choe wrote: Let's don't make this a race. If Columbus people still think that you can fall off the earth, then the discovery is not public knowledge.
I do not know who was the first who discover the round earth theory.
All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.
My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.
Eratosthenes figured out that the Earth was round and measured its circumference to within fifteen percent of the actual value in 240 BC.
Western Europe and the US do love their "We did everything before all the unenlightened savages everywhere else in the world!" myths, don't they?
AnomanderRake wrote: And I'm sure the Saudi clergy's statements on astrophysics have a dramatic and damaging effect on your daily life.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
david choe wrote: Let's don't make this a race. If Columbus people still think that you can fall off the earth, then the discovery is not public knowledge.
I do not know who was the first who discover the round earth theory.
All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.
My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.
Eratosthenes figured out that the Earth was round and measured its circumference to within fifteen percent of the actual value in 240 BC.
Western Europe and the US do love their "We did everything before all the unenlightened savages everywhere else in the world!" myths, don't they?
You can't be that blind and fall for this smear of the Saudi or Islam right? This is a propaganda to smear them. If the Quran already stated the round earth theory, then this idiot cleric is wrong and "solo" in this. Yet, this thread is full of Middle East rejecting facts discovered by the west. You ...turning this into a contest...lol
Either you actually fall for this propaganda or are using this as a propaganda for your ethnocentric ideology. I just see this as what it really is.... When the world saw that Duck dynasty show....we know that the show do not represent usa.
Wait now you're saying Duck Dynasty doesn't represent the USA? What kind of nonsense is this? Don't you feren devilz know anything. Don't you know everyone here has a two foot beard and shouts bible verses at random passers by?
pfft next you'll be telling me Texans don't have oil wells in our back yards.
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It is not just the Middle East. I have read that the leader of Boko Haram in Africa also claims The Earth is flat, largely in defiance of western teachings. What I find most disturbing about this stuff is that, unlike evolution which happens very slowly, the motion of the stars an planets is something you can observe yourself. The observations of scientists can be empirically tested with little more than a sextant and some determination. This is made super easy with the assistance of stargazing apps. The fact that smart phones with sat-nav even exists should be evidence enough that the person who put the satellites there knows their gak.
I'm reminded of the (apocryphal) anecdote about Aristotle. His statement that flies have four legs was repeated in natural history texts for more than a thousand years, despite the fact that a little counting would have proven otherwise. Why take people's word when you can just check yourself?
Counties in the east were a great source of science thousands of years ago, they had mathematicians, scientists snd scholars. But there's no pride in any of these values because it doesn't suit the interests of clerics, religious leaders and those in power. That's why they don't believe in education or free expression and thought.
I think that door swings both ways. Are people made ignorant by the power of religious leaders, or are religious leaders made powerful by people's ignorance. I remember as a child (about 11) plotting the positions of nearby stars onto a map, with nothing but a protractor and a book by Patrick Moore that listed their declination and hour angle. Granted, I did have a book, but it wasn't part of my education, and certainly not something my parents were interested in, I just wanted to know for myself. When I look back at ancient people, I'm constantly in awe of what they were able to achieve with so little. Even the simple neolithic people that built Stonehenge had the mental capacity to make calenders and accurately predict the solstice. When I look at modern people I'm constantly amazed by how dumb they are. Most people I meet, even in the UK, don't know anything, and they're not interested in knowing anything. They stare all day at TVs, phones and computers, and it never occurs to them to find out how those things work, even though the answer is literally a click away. They don't know the words for trees or flowers, or understand why spiders aren't insects. When I moved house I had to endure a mandatory lecture by the estate agent about how mould spreads because it is a "kind of bacteria". I corrected him that mould is caused by fungus, but my words were just met with a dumb expression and went straight over his head. The real tragedy is not that people are stupid, but that not-stupid people can't get a safer distance away from them all.
The Chinese discover the earth was round before the west by a few 100s years.
Source on that? Seeing as Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, already knowing that the earth was round, we're talking so far back in time that records start becoming rather spotty.
Let's don't make this a race. If Columbus people still think that you can fall off the earth, then the discovery is not public knowledge.
You'd have a point if people actually thought that at the time. Their objection to Columbus's journey was that they felt he was underestimating the circumference of the Earth, based on, among other things, Eratosthenes's work, and they were RIGHT. So yeah, tell us all about dismissing people's achievements.
Psienesis wrote: There's still a lot of Americans who claim the Moon landing never happened. It's not just a Middle East thing.
Religious extremism often has an anti-science/anti-intellectual angle to it... Islam isn't alone in that, we have plenty of Christian fundamentalists here in the US making similar statements, apparently now including a group who believes that dinosaurs were never real.
People also claim the Holocaust was a hoax, that doesn't make them any less stupid.
jreilly89 wrote: Oh, did we step back into the Medieval Ages? Thank God I'm white
There was a great standup bit about this - I think Louis CK - about how one of the benefits of being white - white privilege, as it were; is free access to enjoying time travel, whereas a black guy is going to be like "um.... No, nothing really before 1970 or so, thanks."
"Oh, we're definitely going to get our come uppance, but for now, wheeee!!"
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It is not just the Middle East. I have read that the leader of Boko Haram in Africa also claims The Earth is flat, largely in defiance of western teachings. What I find most disturbing about this stuff is that, unlike evolution which happens very slowly, the motion of the stars an planets is something you can observe yourself. The observations of scientists can be empirically tested with little more than a sextant and some determination. This is made super easy with the assistance of stargazing apps. The fact that smart phones with sat-nav even exists should be evidence enough that the person who put the satellites there knows their gak.
I'm reminded of the (apocryphal) anecdote about Aristotle. His statement that flies have four legs was repeated in natural history texts for more than a thousand years, despite the fact that a little counting would have proven otherwise. Why take people's word when you can just check yourself?
Counties in the east were a great source of science thousands of years ago, they had mathematicians, scientists snd scholars. But there's no pride in any of these values because it doesn't suit the interests of clerics, religious leaders and those in power. That's why they don't believe in education or free expression and thought.
I think that door swings both ways. Are people made ignorant by the power of religious leaders, or are religious leaders made powerful by people's ignorance. I remember as a child (about 11) plotting the positions of nearby stars onto a map, with nothing but a protractor and a book by Patrick Moore that listed their declination and hour angle. Granted, I did have a book, but it wasn't part of my education, and certainly not something my parents were interested in, I just wanted to know for myself. When I look back at ancient people, I'm constantly in awe of what they were able to achieve with so little. Even the simple neolithic people that built Stonehenge had the mental capacity to make calenders and accurately predict the solstice. When I look at modern people I'm constantly amazed by how dumb they are. Most people I meet, even in the UK, don't know anything, and they're not interested in knowing anything. They stare all day at TVs, phones and computers, and it never occurs to them to find out how those things work, even though the answer is literally a click away. They don't know the words for trees or flowers, or understand why spiders aren't insects. When I moved house I had to endure a mandatory lecture by the estate agent about how mould spreads because it is a "kind of bacteria". I corrected him that mould is caused by fungus, but my words were just met with a dumb expression and went straight over his head. The real tragedy is not that people are stupid, but that not-stupid people can't get a safer distance away from them all.
The Chinese discover the earth was round before the west by a few 100s years.
Source on that? Seeing as Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, already knowing that the earth was round, we're talking so far back in time that records start becoming rather spotty.
Let's don't make this a race. If Columbus people still think that you can fall off the earth, then the discovery is not public knowledge.
You'd have a point if people actually thought that at the time. Their objection to Columbus's journey was that they felt he was underestimating the circumference of the Earth, based on, among other things, Eratosthenes's work, and they were RIGHT. So yeah, tell us all about dismissing people's achievements.
I wasing making a claim who was first. However, the "west" in this context is based on 1500s discovery.
Also, I think there were other Greeks before Eratosthenes by a few 100s years. I would not say to you that you are "dismissing people's achievement" just to jab at your ego.
You can't be that blind and fall for this smear of the Saudi or Islam right? This is a propaganda to smear them.
This was reported initially on Al Arabiya, a Saudi owned English/Arabic news site.
Yeah...it was not a big deal. That is my point. Like my comparison of CNN reporting Duck Dynasty. People will pull any article to use as a propaganda tool for their agenda.
Some of you on this thread seems to fall for the propaganda or use it to push your agenda is my point.
Some of you on this thread seems to fall for the propaganda or use it to push your agenda is my point.
This from the guy who doesn't think Duck Dynasty is an accurate portrayal of American life, and that Texans don't have oil wells in the back yards? Sorry but all your opinions are suspect now. Next you'll be making up asinine statements like cat people got a reason to live and the pending Zombie apocalypse is not a reason to get all giddy and excited like the night before Christmas.
loki old fart wrote: Well my cats think the world is shaped like a tin of pilchards.
My dog doesn't think, because he's got a ball, And it needs throwing.
your dog is wise. In the words of TBone Greatest of all Dogs:
I think I know why so many wargamers have cats. They just go to sleep on your lap, and get covered in paint.
Dogs expect you to put your brushes down, and throw the ball.
The funny part... This cleric actually use this example to proof that the earth is not round...
If we are in air and just stays still, then China should rotate to us.
I thought of something like this when I was a little kid...
When I jump up...the earth rotate a bit..so when I landed...I was a bit forward. This theory explain why I jumped forward or backward, in reality (I thought) I was just jumping straight up!
All the cleric is demonstrating is a total lack of understanding as to what inertia is. By his logic, if you were on an aeroplane and tried to jump on the spot, you'd go plummeting towards the back wall of the aircraft at 500mph.
Frazzled wrote: Actually the British helped them get there. Has no one watched Lawrence of Arabia in the last 50 years?
Yeah, i'm often amazed at how people that speak of current events in the middle east can't be bothered to investigate the social and political fallout of post world war I and its ramifications on the region.
This guy is clearly a cat lover. I have it on good information that cat lovers suspect the earth really is flat.
Hey i'm a cat lover. And we don't suspect it's flat. We, just like our cats, can't be bothered to explain it to all the lesser beings around us. // cat mode off.
(fair being fair i'm a dog lover too. I have a black lab foxhound that is the best fething dog ever. My rescue cat is also aces. ).
Frazzled wrote: Actually the British helped them get there. Has no one watched Lawrence of Arabia in the last 50 years?
True, it's very interesting how much late 19th and early 20th century meddling by the British gets dumped on the US.
That said, at least in this case the British have a reasonable defence that nobody saw the rise of Saudi Arabia happening. The place was one of the poorest countries in the world, if it is controlled by a bunch of religious fanatics, well that's no biggie. Then they found oil.
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AnomanderRake wrote: Eratosthenes figured out that the Earth was round and measured its circumference to within fifteen percent of the actual value in 240 BC.
Western Europe and the US do love their "We did everything before all the unenlightened savages everywhere else in the world!" myths, don't they?
Of course, the irony here is that this little side conversation was kicked off by someone dubiously trying to claim the Chinese did something before anyone else. ie "we did everything before all the unenlightened savages" is not a uniquely Western thing.
The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.
david choe wrote: The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.
Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.
david choe wrote: The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.
Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.
Not to mention things invented by the Greeks and Roman, hell, even the Babylonians, way before China. Science is about sharing, not about who discovered what first.
david choe wrote: The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.
Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.
But we are not speaking in Chinese here and the subject and context is so full of occidental bias that somebody had to bring the balancing scale that was very skewed and correct it with facts. You seems like a level headed guy, then there is no point at trying to correct something that is not needed to be corrected. I agree but again, who is doing the standing up for the truth here? Just me. The unpopular voice of DakkaDakka.
In short it went like this.
West did everything and middle east hate it.
I pointed they didn't and east did this and I mentioned that the West has too many occidental bias and the ME do not hate.. just this stupid Cleric.
Then You - The east is just as bad at clamming credits.
OK, then.
david choe wrote: But we are not speaking in Chinese here and the subject and context is so full of occidental bias that somebody had to bring the balancing scale that was very skewed and correct it with facts. You seems like a level headed guy, then there is no point at trying to correct something that is not needed to be corrected. I agree but again, who is doing the standing up for the truth here? Just me. The unpopular voice of DakkaDakka.
Really running with that victim complex aren't you
david choe wrote: The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.
Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.
Not to mention things invented by the Greeks and Roman, hell, even the Babylonians, way before China. Science is about sharing, not about who discovered what first.
Tell that to the occidentals, the rest of the world is quite humble in this aspect.
david choe wrote: But we are not speaking in Chinese here and the subject and context is so full of occidental bias that somebody had to bring the balancing scale that was very skewed and correct it with facts. You seems like a level headed guy, then there is no point at trying to correct something that is not needed to be corrected. I agree but again, who is doing the standing up for the truth here? Just me. The unpopular voice of DakkaDakka.
Really running with that victim complex aren't you
How about you never reply to me and leave it at that. Just put me on ignore, I do not respect your POV in any post and most of the time... well it is really a waste of time to read your post.
david choe wrote: The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.
Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.
Not to mention things invented by the Greeks and Roman, hell, even the Babylonians, way before China. Science is about sharing, not about who discovered what first.
why has no one mentioned the Egyptians, or the Olmecs, or even the Phonecians who were incredible sailors and traders whilst most of the world was still finding out where it's arse was?
Damn occidental bias i tell you.
Davids right on one thing though, the amount of eastern discoveries claimed by Europeans circa and after the reformation is quite honestly astounding.It's like the Éuropeans discovered the eastern libraries or something.
Lordofhats does some good posts david, don't be so quick to judge, give him a bit of time he'll grow on you like fungas.
I'm no historian, but isn't it possible that some of those discoveries made first by the Chines were in also made by Europeans independently at some later point in time?
Not talking about the obvious Greek/Babylonian/Egyptian civilizations' discoveries here, but the later ones like the printing press and things.)
Tell that to the occidentals, the rest of the world is quite humble in this aspect.
The vast majority of people in the world don't care who invented X first. It is a leisure argument.
Go look at any history books at occidental schools, The most stupidest claim......Columbus discover American! I guess the Vikings didn't count....how about the natives? The Indians been around for more than a 1000s years!
I just like to learn the truth, btw.....i am of mixed euro,asia, and natives american. I don't give a crap who invented first, just the truthiswhat I want in my brain. Because of my mixed background...I hate bias because the result is ignorance.
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Bran Dawri wrote: I'm no historian, but isn't it possible that some of those discoveries made first by the Chines were in also made by Europeans independently at some later point in time?
Not talking about the obvious Greek/Babylonian/Egyptian civilizations' discoveries here, but the later ones like the printing press and things.)
I don't know for sure, but my theory is that Marco Polo or some traders from the Silk Road must have imported the 4 major discoveries to the west like: paper, printing press, gun powder, and pasta?
I think the oldest most advanced civilization were greek, Egyptian, Babylonian ...I think at around 3000 bc and China was around 2000 bc. Top of my head here.
The only civilization from ancient time that is still consider a powerful force in military and economy left is China. The restate gak now.
Lordofhats does some good posts david, don't be so quick to judge, give him a bit of time he'll grow on you like fungas.
And then I sell you the anti-fungal spray. It's impossible not to make money
I'm no historian, but isn't it possible that some of those discoveries made first by the Chines were in also made by Europeans independently at some later point in time?
A good example is the Copernican model of the Heliocentric universe (how topical!). Tusi, who I mentioned early in the thread, produced a nearly identical model two centuries before Copernicus. The models are so similar some historians are utterly convinced that Copernicus had to have somehow had access to Tusi's work. Except no one can figure out how. There are no connections between the men to be drawn or any sign that Copernicus, his teachers or partners, had ever even heard of Tusi. Tusi, like Galileo, got laughed out of the room by everyone else and became an outcast, so his work until recently was very obscure. As far as the evidence goes, Tusi and Copernicus were just two guys who produced almost identical work completely independent of one another.
Another debatable example is the Law of Refraction. Ibn Sahl had created an solid mathematical proof in 984, which was popularized by his student Alhazen. Europeans wouldn't rediscover this law on their own for nearly 600 years, when Thomas Harriot produced a similar proof but never published it in 1601. The law as we know it today, Snell's Law, wouldn't be published until 1621. Snell and Harriot did not have access to the work of Ibn Sahl. All of his work was burned to the ground with the rest of Baghdad by the Mongols. The only examples we have of his work are in citations and copies of others, namely his student Alhazen (who was super obsessed with refraction).
EDIT: Then there's the radio, flight, photography. Independent discovery happens all the time. But there's also plenty of evidence for say, fire arms, and their migration from China, to the Middle East, and then to Europe. Paper making as well. Contact between Europe and China is a vague and unclear area of history. It is only recently that we learned Ancient Rome and the Han Dynasty were aware of the other existing. Aware enough that both had attempted to make contact with the other!
the printing press and things.)
Korea. While China had made use of Wood Block printing for production of tests like The Book of Han, and later developed moveable type themselves in the 11th century (about 100-150 years before Europeans began developing the same technology independently). But Korea had created a wooden moveable press system as early as the mid 9th century and then, for whatever baffling reason, they forgot about it! Moveable type wouldn't return until the 13th century when the Chinese brought their own system over.
*Contrary to popular belief, Gutenburg did not invent the Printing Press in Europe, just the first to create a metal moveable type system.
All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.
My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.
What's really impressive here is the fact that you're claiming that the Quran said the earth was round 1000 years before Columbus, despite said texts not being in existence at that time.
All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.
My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.
What's really impressive here is the fact that you're claiming that the Quran said the earth was round 1000 years before Columbus, despite said texts not being in existence at that time.
Damnit, you beat me to it
Seems a bit nitpicky, but the Quran was begun un 610CE, and Columbus died in 1506.
Some quick wikipedia references too:
In ancient China, the prevailing belief was that the Earth was flat and square, while the heavens were round,[49] an assumption virtually unquestioned until the introduction of European astronomy in the 17th century.[50][51][52] The English sinologist Cullen emphasizes the point that there was no concept of a round Earth in ancient Chinese astronomy:
Chinese thought on the form of the earth remained almost unchanged from early times until the first contacts with modern science through the medium of Jesuit missionaries in the seventeenth century. While the heavens were variously described as being like an umbrella covering the earth (the Kai Tian theory), or like a sphere surrounding it (the Hun Tian theory), or as being without substance while the heavenly bodies float freely (the Hsüan yeh theory), the earth was at all times flat, although perhaps bulging up slightly.[53]
Ming China
As late as 1595, an early Jesuit missionary to China, Matteo Ricci, recorded that the Chinese say: "The earth is flat and square, and the sky is a round canopy; they did not succeed in conceiving the possibility of the antipodes."[57][114] The universal belief in a flat Earth is confirmed by a contemporary Chinese encyclopedia from 1609 illustrating a flat Earth extending over the horizontal diametral plane of a spherical heaven.[57]
In the 17th century, the idea of a spherical Earth spread in China due to the influence of the Jesuits, who held high positions as astronomers at the imperial court.[115]
The irony of this is that the person doing the criticising doesn't even want to look at wikipedia. I fear that this is the same sort of person that will make the fashionable claim so popular with my Year 8 students that wikipedia is not a reliable source.
All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.
My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.
What's really impressive here is the fact that you're claiming that the Quran said the earth was round 1000 years before Columbus, despite said texts not being in existence at that time.
Nit picking here, but ok... it is the internet.
Columbus was around 1492 AD Quran was around 650 AD
So if you want to do the math you can... the point still stand. So it was about 850 years... point taken.
So the Cleric was wrong and his Islam religion even pointed out to him by his holy book over 1400 years ago (don't do the math here... just go with it). The Quran stated the round earth theory 850 before Columbus then. Happy
All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.
My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.
What's really impressive here is the fact that you're claiming that the Quran said the earth was round 1000 years before Columbus, despite said texts not being in existence at that time.
Damnit, you beat me to it
Seems a bit nitpicky, but the Quran was begun un 610CE, and Columbus died in 1506.
Some quick wikipedia references too:
In ancient China, the prevailing belief was that the Earth was flat and square, while the heavens were round,[49] an assumption virtually unquestioned until the introduction of European astronomy in the 17th century.[50][51][52] The English sinologist Cullen emphasizes the point that there was no concept of a round Earth in ancient Chinese astronomy:
Chinese thought on the form of the earth remained almost unchanged from early times until the first contacts with modern science through the medium of Jesuit missionaries in the seventeenth century. While the heavens were variously described as being like an umbrella covering the earth (the Kai Tian theory), or like a sphere surrounding it (the Hun Tian theory), or as being without substance while the heavenly bodies float freely (the Hsüan yeh theory), the earth was at all times flat, although perhaps bulging up slightly.[53]
Ming China
As late as 1595, an early Jesuit missionary to China, Matteo Ricci, recorded that the Chinese say: "The earth is flat and square, and the sky is a round canopy; they did not succeed in conceiving the possibility of the antipodes."[57][114] The universal belief in a flat Earth is confirmed by a contemporary Chinese encyclopedia from 1609 illustrating a flat Earth extending over the horizontal diametral plane of a spherical heaven.[57]
In the 17th century, the idea of a spherical Earth spread in China due to the influence of the Jesuits, who held high positions as astronomers at the imperial court.[115]
The irony of this is that the person doing the criticising doesn't even want to look at wikipedia. I fear that this is the same sort of person that will make the fashionable claim so popular with my Year 8 students that wikipedia is not a reliable source.
LOL. . . ..
I said Chinese as in a scientist from China. I mean... the west didn't consider the round theory in 1492 year... right? It was just Columbus. So yes, some Chinese scientist discover the round earth theory before 1492. Look it up yourself, too lazy.
Just as in the Greek example, they as in some scientist ( I don't have the names) discover in the BCs of the round earth theory.
I'm not getting paid to educate you, so look it up yourself. If you don't believe me, like I care right?
Your language to me is salty too, take a chill pill man. I didn't open up books and take down dates to report to you guys.. this is Dakka, I'm not doing an EXPOSE on the discovery.
However, most people who have some higher education knows the fact what I'm saying is true. My dates might be off, but like I said.. .who the F cares.. that I said Quran was off by 150 years. Again, not doing EXPOSE here.
You seems like the kind of guy who actually think that what you learned in school is correct and think that I am full of air.. so you went to Wikki. Good for you. Now do a bit more of that and find the names of the Chinese and the Greek who discover the round earth theory before Columbus and report to us.
BTW - another controversial subject of China discover Americas before Columbus by about 100 years is interesting. I'm not sure of this subject... but look up Gavin Menzies and his Map. I read about this over breakfast a few years back.. so I'm not saying it is fact... search it yourself.
Columbus was around 1492 AD Quran was around 650 AD
So if you want to do the math you can... the point still stand. So it was about 850 years... point taken.
So the Cleric was wrong and his Islam religion even pointed out to him by his holy book over 1400 years ago (don't do the math here... just go with it). The Quran stated the round earth theory 850 before Columbus then. Happy
Well, sure, aside from the places where it also says that the earth is "made for you the earth like a carpet spread out", which sounds pretty incompatible with round.
The ancient Greeks attribute a round earth theory to Pythagorias and Parmenides too. That was in the BC era, which would predate Galleo, Columbus, the Quran, and Leif Erikson. The only reason anyone really gives a damn about Columbus is that he "proved" it first, for some values of prove, and he had better PR on his side.
More importantly: What does it matter? Either way? There might have been some lost understanding that we still haven't recovered from back when the Middle East was actually a location of significant scientific research and thinking. There could still be amazing knowledge that was found there before their modern Dark Ages that we haven't even rediscovered yet.. What doesn't matter so much is who got there first, waving pennants for the home team, but what you actually DO with the knowledge.
Columbus was around 1492 AD Quran was around 650 AD
So if you want to do the math you can... the point still stand. So it was about 850 years... point taken.
So the Cleric was wrong and his Islam religion even pointed out to him by his holy book over 1400 years ago (don't do the math here... just go with it). The Quran stated the round earth theory 850 before Columbus then. Happy
Well, sure, aside from the places where it also says that the earth is "made for you the earth like a carpet spread out", which sounds pretty incompatible with round.
The ancient Greeks attribute a round earth theory to Pythagorias and Parmenides too. That was in the BC era, which would predate Galleo, Columbus, the Quran, and Leif Erikson. The only reason anyone really gives a damn about Columbus is that he "proved" it first, for some values of prove, and he had better PR on his side.
More importantly: What does it matter? Either way? There might have been some lost understanding that we still haven't recovered from back when the Middle East was actually a location of significant scientific research and thinking. There could still be amazing knowledge that was found there before their modern Dark Ages that we haven't even rediscovered yet.. What doesn't matter so much is who got there first, waving pennants for the home team, but what you actually DO with the knowledge.
Preaching to the choir here. Somebody was trying to nit pick with me. If you read my post, it was off the cuff post about who came before Columbus... didn't expect that I had to go do an EXPOSE with dates here.
daedalus wrote: To be fair, the last bit was directed as a general question to the floor, not just you.
No problem.
I'm not a religion scolar or Islam specialist at that. The Quran (about the round earth) was one of those ... so many Muslim have told me and show me the quotes and many Muslim believe that the earth is round kind of thing. This is why I was surprise that the Islamic Cleric was a Muslim ... so WTF? I don't give a crap about any holy books from 1,500 years or 2,000 years ago. To me it was all men writing gak and it was so vague that you can interprets it as anything.
Constantine made the bible in around 350AD right?
Did Islam got its' religion and the Quran together around 650AD. I mean it was all together right? Unlike Christian... where their Bible came almost 300 years later.
Is Islam old testament identical with the Bible old testament?
What I want to know is if Arabs were worshiping God (Allah) before Muhammad. And after Muhammad, they must know that the God (Allah) they are worshiping is the same God as the God of the Jews, the Christian and now Islam right?
BTW - not directing at you, unless you know about this topic.
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It is not just the Middle East. I have read that the leader of Boko Haram in Africa also claims The Earth is flat, largely in defiance of western teachings. What I find most disturbing about this stuff is that, unlike evolution which happens very slowly, the motion of the stars an planets is something you can observe yourself. The observations of scientists can be empirically tested with little more than a sextant and some determination. This is made super easy with the assistance of stargazing apps. The fact that smart phones with sat-nav even exists should be evidence enough that the person who put the satellites there knows their gak.
I'm reminded of the (apocryphal) anecdote about Aristotle. His statement that flies have four legs was repeated in natural history texts for more than a thousand years, despite the fact that a little counting would have proven otherwise. Why take people's word when you can just check yourself?
Counties in the east were a great source of science thousands of years ago, they had mathematicians, scientists snd scholars. But there's no pride in any of these values because it doesn't suit the interests of clerics, religious leaders and those in power. That's why they don't believe in education or free expression and thought.
I think that door swings both ways. Are people made ignorant by the power of religious leaders, or are religious leaders made powerful by people's ignorance. I remember as a child (about 11) plotting the positions of nearby stars onto a map, with nothing but a protractor and a book by Patrick Moore that listed their declination and hour angle. Granted, I did have a book, but it wasn't part of my education, and certainly not something my parents were interested in, I just wanted to know for myself. When I look back at ancient people, I'm constantly in awe of what they were able to achieve with so little. Even the simple neolithic people that built Stonehenge had the mental capacity to make calenders and accurately predict the solstice. When I look at modern people I'm constantly amazed by how dumb they are. Most people I meet, even in the UK, don't know anything, and they're not interested in knowing anything. They stare all day at TVs, phones and computers, and it never occurs to them to find out how those things work, even though the answer is literally a click away. They don't know the words for trees or flowers, or understand why spiders aren't insects. When I moved house I had to endure a mandatory lecture by the estate agent about how mould spreads because it is a "kind of bacteria". I corrected him that mould is caused by fungus, but my words were just met with a dumb expression and went straight over his head. The real tragedy is not that people are stupid, but that not-stupid people can't get a safer distance away from them all.
The Chinese discover the earth was round before the west by a few 100s years.
Source on that? Seeing as Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, already knowing that the earth was round, we're talking so far back in time that records start becoming rather spotty.
Let's don't make this a race. If Columbus people still think that you can fall off the earth, then the discovery is not public knowledge.
You'd have a point if people actually thought that at the time. Their objection to Columbus's journey was that they felt he was underestimating the circumference of the Earth, based on, among other things, Eratosthenes's work, and they were RIGHT. So yeah, tell us all about dismissing people's achievements.
But what do I know? I'm just a "dirty Occidental"...
I'm just going to say that Columbus didn't discover the Earth is round, nor did he set off to prove it; it was a known fact then. They just thought Columbus was daft when he attempted to sail West to Asia because his maths were terrible, he over-estimated Europe's width, the distance between Japan and China and other things.
Since the Greeks first discovered it (IIRC Pythagoras was the one (or one of the ones) that first said/discovered that), Europe has never really forgotten. the 'Flat-Earth Myth' is just that, a myth. Even people in medieval times knew the Earth was round.
david choe wrote: Did Islam got its' religion and the Quran together around 650AD. I mean it was all together right? Unlike Christian... where their Bible came almost 300 years later.
The Quran was written after Muhammad's death, but not long after, and contrarily to the Bible, there is only one version of it that is commonly accepted by every Muslim regardless of its branch of Islam.
david choe wrote: Is Islam old testament identical with the Bible old testament?
Actually, the Bible (both testament) having been modified by men is supposedly the reason for the Quran, who is supposed to be protected against all and any modification or alteration. Yeah, it does not make sense, I know. But as a result, Islam's “old testament” is not supposed to be taken literally anyway. But yeah, it is the same.
david choe wrote: What I want to know is if Arabs were worshiping God (Allah) before Muhammad.
They had different religions. Tons of Jewish tribes, also a bunch of polytheistic religions.
david choe wrote: And after Muhammad, they must know that the God (Allah) they are worshiping is the same God as the God of the Jews, the Christian and now Islam right?
And the Baha'i too. But those are usually considered heretics and very harshly persecuted.
I hope you enjoyed this dirty unwashed ignorant westerner that knows nothing about other cultures explaining you about Islam and 7th century Arabia.
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It is not just the Middle East. I have read that the leader of Boko Haram in Africa also claims The Earth is flat, largely in defiance of western teachings. What I find most disturbing about this stuff is that, unlike evolution which happens very slowly, the motion of the stars an planets is something you can observe yourself. The observations of scientists can be empirically tested with little more than a sextant and some determination. This is made super easy with the assistance of stargazing apps. The fact that smart phones with sat-nav even exists should be evidence enough that the person who put the satellites there knows their gak.
I'm reminded of the (apocryphal) anecdote about Aristotle. His statement that flies have four legs was repeated in natural history texts for more than a thousand years, despite the fact that a little counting would have proven otherwise. Why take people's word when you can just check yourself?
Counties in the east were a great source of science thousands of years ago, they had mathematicians, scientists snd scholars. But there's no pride in any of these values because it doesn't suit the interests of clerics, religious leaders and those in power. That's why they don't believe in education or free expression and thought.
I think that door swings both ways. Are people made ignorant by the power of religious leaders, or are religious leaders made powerful by people's ignorance. I remember as a child (about 11) plotting the positions of nearby stars onto a map, with nothing but a protractor and a book by Patrick Moore that listed their declination and hour angle. Granted, I did have a book, but it wasn't part of my education, and certainly not something my parents were interested in, I just wanted to know for myself. When I look back at ancient people, I'm constantly in awe of what they were able to achieve with so little. Even the simple neolithic people that built Stonehenge had the mental capacity to make calenders and accurately predict the solstice. When I look at modern people I'm constantly amazed by how dumb they are. Most people I meet, even in the UK, don't know anything, and they're not interested in knowing anything. They stare all day at TVs, phones and computers, and it never occurs to them to find out how those things work, even though the answer is literally a click away. They don't know the words for trees or flowers, or understand why spiders aren't insects. When I moved house I had to endure a mandatory lecture by the estate agent about how mould spreads because it is a "kind of bacteria". I corrected him that mould is caused by fungus, but my words were just met with a dumb expression and went straight over his head. The real tragedy is not that people are stupid, but that not-stupid people can't get a safer distance away from them all.
The Chinese discover the earth was round before the west by a few 100s years.
Source on that? Seeing as Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, already knowing that the earth was round, we're talking so far back in time that records start becoming rather spotty.
Let's don't make this a race. If Columbus people still think that you can fall off the earth, then the discovery is not public knowledge.
You'd have a point if people actually thought that at the time. Their objection to Columbus's journey was that they felt he was underestimating the circumference of the Earth, based on, among other things, Eratosthenes's work, and they were RIGHT. So yeah, tell us all about dismissing people's achievements.
But what do I know? I'm just a "dirty Occidental"...
That is my point...
The Chinese (Scientist not the country)discover the round earth theory before Columbus.
You didn't post the post after this one, I stated.....
Chinese,
Greek
Quran
as before Columbus.
I didn't give names or dates just estimate years in 100s... to show how long it was before Columbus. The Greek that I forgot the names is not Eratosthenes, but it was some other greek before him. Looked it up.. Greek Pythagoras did it about 500 BC
The quote you stated support my point, so what are you complaining about?
The Chinese scientist discover the round earth before by a few 100s years...
List of all the culture who discover the round / spherical earth theory.
If that article is correct, then I was wrong about the Chinese and I stand corrected.
I must have got confuse with the Indian who discover it around 500AD.
Islamic astronomy and Muslim mathematicians discover this round spherical theory around 800AD
I stand corrected with the mixed of Chinese and India... but the East discover this way before Columbus.
I knew I remember that the meca of Maths and science was from the middle east and European were still dealing with the dark ages.
Columbus didn't discover nor set out to prove the world was round, that fact was known at the time (and had been known since the Pythagoras and all that discovered it).
david choe wrote: Did Islam got its' religion and the Quran together around 650AD. I mean it was all together right? Unlike Christian... where their Bible came almost 300 years later.
The Quran was written after Muhammad's death, but not long after, and contrarily to the Bible, there is only one version of it that is commonly accepted by every Muslim regardless of its branch of Islam.
david choe wrote: Is Islam old testament identical with the Bible old testament?
Actually, the Bible (both testament) having been modified by men is supposedly the reason for the Quran, who is supposed to be protected against all and any modification or alteration. Yeah, it does not make sense, I know. But as a result, Islam's “old testament” is not supposed to be taken literally anyway. But yeah, it is the same.
david choe wrote: What I want to know is if Arabs were worshiping God (Allah) before Muhammad.
They had different religions. Tons of Jewish tribes, also a bunch of polytheistic religions.
david choe wrote: And after Muhammad, they must know that the God (Allah) they are worshiping is the same God as the God of the Jews, the Christian and now Islam right?
And the Baha'i too. But those are usually considered heretics and very harshly persecuted.
I hope you enjoyed this dirty unwashed ignorant westerner that knows nothing about other cultures explaining you about Islam and 7th century Arabia.
well... thank you for your explaining it to me. A savage like me need to be educated by the barbarians of the west now and again.
What do you mean by "and contrarily to the Bible,"... you mean that there are many version of the bible and only one version of Quran?
So you are saying that the old testament in Torah is different from the Bible and Quran? So OT same in Bible and Quran and different from Torah? Or are you saying that all 3 books have the same OT in it? How can any OT be different from the Torah, if it had the original OT?
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Matt.Kingsley wrote: Columbus didn't discover nor set out to prove the world was round, that fact was known at the time (and had been known since the Pythagoras and all that discovered it).
What! During the middle ages... European were in the dark ages. They theory of Pythagoras was lost. In fact, Pythagoras was never a popular belief in the first place.
I don't know about this one.... maybe scholar and scientist few (in the whole world) might believe that the earth was round... but most sea captain and sailors and general populations of the world didn't buy this theory or fact un till about 1500s.
BTW - I know what you did, you change your stance of the flat earth as a myth. You deleted all of it. The flat earth theory was not a myth. It was people ignorance.
Though you are right, I did screw up the bit about them remembering the Greeks. Most of the knowledge was lost. That said, they still believed the Earth was round. (I misinterpreted a single sentence from another article, what it actually said was that they held the same belief of the Earth being round as the Greeks did)
And I didn't delete my early statement, I edited them so they made sense in the context of the thread (note that I also state the the myth is a myth, where as before I only implied it).
Also, the Chinese civilization today is nowhere near the same as that of the Emperors in much the same way as Western Civilization is not the same as the Greek or Roman civilizations. At best there is more continuity in the evolution of the culture and its heritage
A great many important ideologies came from these ancient forebears (on both sides), but to claim one is still the same civilization while the other is not is disingenuous at best.
Though you are right, I did screw up the bit about them remembering the Greeks. Most of the knowledge was lost. That said, they still believed the Earth was round. (I misinterpreted a single sentence from another article, what it actually said was that they held the same belief of the Earth being round as the Greeks did)
And I didn't delete my early statement, I edited them so they made sense in the context of the thread (note that I also state the the myth is a myth, where as before I only implied it).
Funny enough... in your article... it stated that The Chinese and Muslim might have discover America before Columbus.
At this point I don't freaking know any more lol. I was convince that Chinese discover before 1500. Then I did some research.. it shows that it was the India that in around 900AD.. then now this article stated that the Chinese might have discover America before Columbus.
You are claiming that Flat earth was a myth since 500BC. Yet in may historical claims that it was not the case. There were maps showing edge of the world with sea monsters.
My theory is that majority consider it was flat because how can it be round ... they don't know about gravity. Some "rogue" scientist or sailor might think that it was all connected and round... but majority no way. Most can't even read or right and are superstitious as hell... how can they understand an idea such as round earth like an orange and we are on it.
Frazzled wrote: Actually the British helped them get there. Has no one watched Lawrence of Arabia in the last 50 years?
True, it's very interesting how much late 19th and early 20th century meddling by the British gets dumped on the US.
That said, at least in this case the British have a reasonable defence that nobody saw the rise of Saudi Arabia happening. The place was one of the poorest countries in the world, if it is controlled by a bunch of religious fanatics, well that's no biggie. Then they found oil.
This is true. Plus the British stuffed them somewhat vs. what they actually promised.
Its an interesting question. What would have happened if the Ottoman Empire had not been broken up. Either reduced (Africa is freed) or left alone?
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david choe wrote: The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.
Who cares? Texas invented Tex Mex and Mexico invented tequila. Thats really all that matters.
david choe wrote: The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.
Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.
Not to mention things invented by the Greeks and Roman, hell, even the Babylonians, way before China. Science is about sharing, not about who discovered what first.
why has no one mentioned the Egyptians, or the Olmecs, or even the Phonecians who were incredible sailors and traders whilst most of the world was still finding out where it's arse was?
Damn occidental bias i tell you.
Davids right on one thing though, the amount of eastern discoveries claimed by Europeans circa and after the reformation is quite honestly astounding.It's like the Éuropeans discovered the eastern libraries or something.
Lordofhats does some good posts david, don't be so quick to judge, give him a bit of time he'll grow on you like fungas.
While not related to the topic, this is true. Many societies invented similar things at different times. Frankly, its glorious to see how different groups of people managed to achieved great things in similar but unique ways.
From major stuff like pyramids to simple things like a one man unpowered pump (dragon pump in Asia, the simple dip pump in Egypt). Brilliant!
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Bran Dawri wrote: I'm no historian, but isn't it possible that some of those discoveries made first by the Chines were in also made by Europeans independently at some later point in time?
Not talking about the obvious Greek/Babylonian/Egyptian civilizations' discoveries here, but the later ones like the printing press and things.)
Indeed, if you lok in history its happened many times, often in the same region.
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Go look at any history books at occidental schools, The most stupidest claim......Columbus discover American! I guess the Vikings didn't count....how about the natives? The Indians been around for more than a 1000s years!
He did discover the Americas. So di the Norse, the Inuit, the Polynesians, and the Siberians.
I agree that the commoner wouldn't know (because as you say the couldn't read or write) but certainly priests, scholars (well, the equivalent of scholars) and sailors knew.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese discovered America before Columbus, the Vikings did.
Also the 'Flat-Earth Myth' is not that from 500BC onwards we've known that the Earth is round but that in Medieval times onwards we've known.
From the 7th Century (during the Dark Ages) at least Medieval Europe had knowledge of the Earth being round, though the Muslims certainly estimated the circumference more accurately before Medieval Europe.
I can't really comment on the maps as I've never actually seen images (and haven't found any) of an actual medieval map that has the world end. I think (shady memory here) that 'here be monsters' basically meant 'we don't know what's here as no one we know has been there)'.
I do know that we have several 'world maps' from before Columbus set sail in the 15th century, and several finished before he returned (including a globe of the earth)
Islam's “old testament” is not supposed to be taken literally anyway. But yeah, it is the same.
As a reader of both versions, have to say theirs is funner
david choe wrote: What I want to know is if Arabs were worshiping God (Allah) before Muhammad.
This is actually a really good question and a giant historical ?. Pre-Islamic Arabic religion was never written anywhere, and the first Muslims seemed pretty avid in forgetting it entirely. We know that some practiced Christianity, and oddly enough Judaism as well, but whether these were the predominant beliefs of the region is unclear. The Quaran and some Hadith make some references to a tribal Monotheistic faith before Mohammad.
david choe wrote: And after Muhammad, they must know that the God (Allah) they are worshiping is the same God as the God of the Jews, the Christian and now Islam right?
Yeah they did. Jesus Christ is a Prophet in the Islamic faith. Christians and Jews got special considerations from Muslims that Zorastrians, Ba'Hai, and other religions did not. Christians and Jews just had to pay some taxes and weren't allowed to own certain items (Horses, sometimes weapons etc). As odd as it might seem today, early Islamic Culture was one of the most tolerant of its time.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese discovered America before Columbus, the Vikings did.
There's pretty much only one guy who claims this, and Gavin Menzies is a complete quack (not to mention more than a little crazy). Never before have I read a text where someone makes a claim and then proceeds to spend the entire book talking about his personal life travels while listing off nonsensical information about one of China's best Naval innovators and explorers. Ancient Aliens guy was better at producing evidence and;
He has way cooler hair.
His second book (that China sparked the Renaissance by sending a fleet to Italy) is even crazier.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese discovered America before Columbus, the Vikings did.
There's pretty much only one guy who claims this, and Gavin Menzies is a complete quack (not to mention more than a little crazy). Never before have I read a text where someone makes a claim and then proceeds to spend the entire book talking about his personal life travels while listing off nonsensical information about one of China's best Naval innovators and explorers. Ancient Aliens guy was better at producing evidence and;
He has way cooler hair.
His second book (that China sparked the Renaissance by sending a fleet to Italy) is even crazier.
david choe wrote: The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.
Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.
Not to mention things invented by the Greeks and Roman, hell, even the Babylonians, way before China. Science is about sharing, not about who discovered what first.
Tell that to the occidentals, the rest of the world is quite humble in this aspect.
david choe wrote: But we are not speaking in Chinese here and the subject and context is so full of occidental bias that somebody had to bring the balancing scale that was very skewed and correct it with facts. You seems like a level headed guy, then there is no point at trying to correct something that is not needed to be corrected. I agree but again, who is doing the standing up for the truth here? Just me. The unpopular voice of DakkaDakka.
Really running with that victim complex aren't you
How about you never reply to me and leave it at that. Just put me on ignore, I do not respect your POV in any post and most of the time... well it is really a waste of time to read your post.
Well, I'm guessing you're gonna say the occidentals stole it from the Chinese, but the term "having an axe to grind" springs to mind
The irony of this is that the person doing the criticising doesn't even want to look at wikipedia. I fear that this is the same sort of person that will make the fashionable claim so popular with my Year 8 students that wikipedia is not a reliable source.
I'm never "allowed" to use wikipedia in my academic works (I am in school to become a history teacher)... but that doesn't mean that I don't head to wiki, find articles related to whatever I'm going to write about, and mine the references section for good stuff
david choe wrote: My theory is that majority consider it was flat because how can it be round ... they don't know about gravity. Some "rogue" scientist or sailor might think that it was all connected and round... but majority no way. Most can't even read or right and are superstitious as hell... how can they understand an idea such as round earth like an orange and we are on it.
You can either accept that pretty much every major scholar of the day accepted that the Earth was round, as evidenced by the collected writings we still have access to, or you can make up your own "facts" and "truth" and go with it. Based on earlier examples in this thread, I wish you luck.
sirlynchmob wrote: When you see his references, quite a few people have claimed it.
No. I've seen this before. Mr. Koufman is simply repeating the arguments of Betty Meggers, a woman who used her position at the Smithsonian in 1974 and 75 to push this theory. Only problem is all her evidence for a Olmec-Shang contact is actually 800-1000 years older than both civilizations. On the plus side, she made huge contributions to the archeological reconstruction of pottery so she wasn't all bad But that's kind of beside my point. A major symposium was held on this subject back in 1968, which resulted in a flurry of work on the subject throughout the 70's (and not oh look a lot of the sources are from the 70s including the illustrious Meggers). This ended abruptly in the mid 80's because the entire idea is bunk. There are today, many questions about Polynesian contact with the Americas and lots of questions that would be answered by it (like how Chicken and Sweet Potatoes got to South America), but there is today only one prominent work still advocating Chinese contact, and it comes from a crazy person. EDIT: A crazy person who I now see has written a third book about how ancient Minos was Atlantis and had a pan-Atlantic sea empire XD
As to the paper I read about to page two, where he blatantly misused Schneider* and stopped reading and skipped to the end. Then I saw Stephen Jett. This I had to check out. Fortunately I found the author of this drivel misusing Jett right after he misued Schneider, so I didn't have to look far. How on earth this guy could have read Jett and still think there any merit to their long dead idea boggles the mind. Hell he's citing John Sorenson. The guy who has wasted 30 years of potential brilliance trying to prove (historically, not religiously) that Jesus Christ came to North America to give some Indians some golden plates. I see at least 2 other names (Key and Lin) who I highly doubt actually support this idea. Especially Key. So Ima call it there and say this guy is misusing source material.
*Schneider never advocating pre-Columbian contact. In fact he thought it a stupid idea. His work on the subject was one of methodology, not evidence as he thought a lot of his compatriots fell back on bad arguments trying to disprove a stupid idea.
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Ensis Ferrae wrote: I'm never "allowed" to use wikipedia in my academic works
This is honestly how it should be. The problem with Wikipedia isn't accuracy (numerous tests have found it to be just as accurate if not more son than major printed Encyclopedias), the problem is that the point of being a student is to do your own research. For all intents and purposes, Wikipedia Articles are collaborative research papers compiled by non-professionals. This isn't a slam against them that they can't be trusted, but rather a statement that students should be engaging actual source material, not a product of source material. EDIT: One of my professors openly stated that he would check our papers against Wikipedia to see if all we did was rewrite the articles in our own words.
And yes, the reference section can often be very useful. It's where I go to get my reading list
david choe wrote: My theory is that majority consider it was flat because how can it be round ... they don't know about gravity. Some "rogue" scientist or sailor might think that it was all connected and round... but majority no way. Most can't even read or right and are superstitious as hell... how can they understand an idea such as round earth like an orange and we are on it.
You can either accept that pretty much every major scholar of the day accepted that the Earth was round, as evidenced by the collected writings we still have access to, or you can make up your own "facts" and "truth" and go with it. Based on earlier examples in this thread, I wish you luck.
You are award that there are many scholars that have stated that the earth was flat. You think I made this up? Based on your wrong greek scholar name...but I am aware that you didn't look it up like me. We both mentioned greek came up first. Are you claiming that since the greeksdiscovery in the BC, the rest of the world got emails about this discovery? Most European at this time were wearing furs and can't even build ships....
david choe wrote: You are award that there are many scholars that have stated that the earth was flat.
Name one.
We both mentioned greek came up first.
Given that the Romans, Muslims, and Western Europeans all had massive hard ons for the Greek Philosophers, and the wide prominence of the work of Ptolemy (and Pliny) thanks to Hellenization, someone would have to try really hard to be educated in late Medieval Europe and not learn that the Greeks had calculated the Earth's circumference and believed it to be round. Thomas Aquinas, the father of Rationalism, calculated the Earth's circumference himself. The standard astronomical text book of the earliest Western Universities, takes it for granted that students knew the Earth was round.
The entire idea that Medieval Europeans thought the earth was flat is historical nonsense. It was popularized in the 19th century by scholars much less interested in history and much more interested in grinding an axe with the Catholic Church and created the myth out of whole cloth.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese discovered America before Columbus, the Vikings did.
There's pretty much only one guy who claims this, and Gavin Menzies is a complete quack (not to mention more than a little crazy). Never before have I read a text where someone makes a claim and then proceeds to spend the entire book talking about his personal life travels while listing off nonsensical information about one of China's best Naval innovators and explorers. Ancient Aliens guy was better at producing evidence and;
He has way cooler hair.
His second book (that China sparked the Renaissance by sending a fleet to Italy) is even crazier.
When you see his references, quite a few people have claimed it.
Please no ancient aliens stuff. Oh hell no...not Olmec. If anything....I might consider that the Olmec might be related with Africans because of the faces looked African. But then again...I don't think African made any statues heads like Olmec.
I did mentioned to read it with a grain of salt...I read it during breakfast and I didn't buy it, but made me think.
If the South Americans natives came from the migration from the asian by the ice age theory of the ice bridge around Alaska and Siberia or they came by boat from the pacific or from Africa crossing Atlantic?
I mean, The eastern islander were so isolated and they got there by boats.
david choe wrote: My theory is that majority consider it was flat because how can it be round ... they don't know about gravity. Some "rogue" scientist or sailor might think that it was all connected and round... but majority no way. Most can't even read or right and are superstitious as hell... how can they understand an idea such as round earth like an orange and we are on it.
You can either accept that pretty much every major scholar of the day accepted that the Earth was round, as evidenced by the collected writings we still have access to, or you can make up your own "facts" and "truth" and go with it. Based on earlier examples in this thread, I wish you luck.
You are award that there are many scholars that have stated that the earth was flat. You think I made this up? Based on your wrong greek scholar name...but I am aware that you didn't look it up like me. We both mentioned greek came up first. Are you claiming that since the greeksdiscovery in the BC, the rest of the world got emails about this discovery? Most European at this time were wearing furs and can't even build ships....
I mentioned Eratosthenes, pointed out that he calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, and (crucially) THAT HE ALREADY KNEW THE EARTH WAS ROUND. Seriously, I cannot communicate with you if you don't read what I am actually writing. I was using the fact that Eratosthenes knew that the Earth was round in 240 BC to back up my statement that the time periods we are discussing is further back than that, making any records rather spotty at best. I've not used "the wrong Greek", because I never claimed he was the first to claim the Earth was round.
Seriously, it's all right there in my posts. There's no need to go all strawman on me.
david choe wrote: My theory is that majority consider it was flat because how can it be round ... they don't know about gravity. Some "rogue" scientist or sailor might think that it was all connected and round... but majority no way. Most can't even read or right and are superstitious as hell... how can they understand an idea such as round earth like an orange and we are on it.
You can either accept that pretty much every major scholar of the day accepted that the Earth was round, as evidenced by the collected writings we still have access to, or you can make up your own "facts" and "truth" and go with it. Based on earlier examples in this thread, I wish you luck.
You are award that there are many scholars that have stated that the earth was flat. You think I made this up? Based on your wrong greek scholar name...but I am aware that you didn't look it up like me. We both mentioned greek came up first. Are you claiming that since the greeksdiscovery in the BC, the rest of the world got emails about this discovery? Most European at this time were wearing furs and can't even build ships....
I mentioned Eratosthenes, pointed out that he calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, and (crucially) THAT HE ALREADY KNEW THE EARTH WAS ROUND. Seriously, I cannot communicate with you if you don't read what I am actually writing. I was using the fact that Eratosthenes knew that the Earth was round in 240 BC to back up my statement that the time periods we are discussing is further back than that, making any records rather spotty at best. I've not used "the wrong Greek", because I never claimed he was the first to claim the Earth was round.
Seriously, it's all right there in my posts. There's no need to go all strawman on me.
Well then, don't nit pick my respond too. I did mentioned Greek so what is the problem here? Holy cow, I told all of you that Columbus was not the first and quote me here...
I said it was Chinese, the Quran, and Greeks discover the round earth before Columbus. As I already mentioned before that I stand corrected about Chinese because I got confuse with India. But the point was made that many discover before Columbus.
Well Western Europe did forget the idea in the early middle ages. There are texts from that period that seem to support the flat earth theory, and others that just seem to assume it. But by the late Middle Ages, the Renaissance was kicking up and Europeans were reacquianting themselves with the work of the Greeks as well as getting into contact with the Muslim world (and the Islamic Golden Age, really loved its astronomy).
The idea that anyone by the time of Columbus believed the Earth was flat is ahistorical. It was taken for granted by then that the Earth was round. Europe loved reading Pliny, and his second volume contains Ptolemy's work on the solar system, including a round earth. Even if someone started reading him and didn't finish, they had to have read that part. It's the very first part of his encyclopedia.
Eastern Europe on the other hand under the Byzantine Empire never forgot.
Nobody even mentioned Columbus until you tried to use him as an example of how backwards us "dirty Occidentals" were. While we 're on the subject, China didn't get the knowledge until the 1600s, and then from Jesuit missionaries (there'd not be much of a "Middle Kingdom" otherwise, would it?). The only one with a blatantly obvious bias in this thread, despite protestations to the contrary, is you .
It can even be argued that great astronomers of India who dealt with the subject built on the teachings of Pythagoras and Aristotle, brought there by Alexander the Great.
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.
This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Nobody even mentioned Columbus until you tried to use him as an example of how backwards us "dirty Occidentals" were. While we 're on the subject, China didn't get the knowledge until the 1600s, and then from Jesuit missionaries (there'd not be much of a "Middle Kingdom" otherwise, would it?). The only one with a blatantly obvious bias in this thread, despite protestations to the contrary, is you .
It can even be argued that great astronomers of India who dealt with the subject built on the teachings of Pythagoras and Aristotle, brought there by Alexander the Great.
LOL.... yeah you really do read my post.
I rest my case with you buddy. Please just stop. You are debating with yourself and putting my name as the antagonist.
Well then, don't nit pick my respond too. I did mentioned Greek so what is the problem here? Holy cow, I told all of you that Columbus was not the first and quote me here...
I said it was Chinese, the Quran, and Greeks discover the round earth before Columbus. As I already mentioned before that I stand corrected about Chinese because I got confuse with India. But the point was made that many discover before Columbus.
Bran Dawri wrote: Also, last time I checked, Greece was part of Europe.
For how much longer they'll be a part of the Euro and the Union is another matter though...
???
Last I check Saudi Arabia is in Asia... so what?
That the ancient Greeks were an occidental civilization. I also misread one of your previous posts, and thought you were claiming that in the days of ancient Greece Europeans were fur-clad savages. I was mistaken. Not important.
Also, Columbus never set out to prove that the earth was round, or to discover new land. That happened by accident. He set out to find a shorter route to India so merchants could stop having to make the perilous journey around Africa or the even more dangerous land route. Everybody knows that it's likely a bunch of other people discovered the Americas before him (including, but not limited to the Vikings, another occidental civilization).
But AFAIK (I'm no historian), Chinese ships of the time weren't very well-designed for journeys on deep seas, but were made for shallower waters to hug the coasts. I could be wrong.
AnomanderRake wrote: And I'm sure the Saudi clergy's statements on astrophysics have a dramatic and damaging effect on your daily life.
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david choe wrote: Let's don't make this a race. If Columbus people still think that you can fall off the earth, then the discovery is not public knowledge.
I do not know who was the first who discover the round earth theory.
All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.
My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.
Eratosthenes figured out that the Earth was round and measured its circumference to within fifteen percent of the actual value in 240 BC.
Western Europe and the US do love their "We did everything before all the unenlightened savages everywhere else in the world!" myths, don't they?
You can't be that blind and fall for this smear of the Saudi or Islam right? This is a propaganda to smear them. If the Quran already stated the round earth theory, then this idiot cleric is wrong and "solo" in this. Yet, this thread is full of Middle East rejecting facts discovered by the west. You ...turning this into a contest...lol
Either you actually fall for this propaganda or are using this as a propaganda for your ethnocentric ideology. I just see this as what it really is.... When the world saw that Duck dynasty show....we know that the show do not represent usa.
Eilif wrote: Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.
This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.
OK, right here guys... this is a perfect example of what I've been trying to tell you. This is a Perfect example of the Occidental propaganda victim or a propaganda pusher.
This nut cleric is not supported by majority of Saudi Arabia. He was a rare case in Saudi Arabia. He made news in Saudi Arabia because of his idiocy just like if some idiot preacher in USA were to make this kind of statement... he would be on CNN. Muslim majority are not idiots like this fool. Why is the West picking up on this news? Because it smear Islam and Saudi Arabia. It painted a negative narrative that the West enjoy mocking. This news clip is the poster boy for anti Islam and Saudi Arabia science.
This is like the case of where CNN news report about Duck Dynasty or Westboro Baptist Church and the rest of the world assume that Americans are as idiots as these fools.
If you must throw insults... please direct at this cleric..
sirlynchmob wrote: When you see his references, quite a few people have claimed it.
No. I've seen this before. Mr. Koufman is simply repeating the arguments of Betty Meggers, a woman who used her position at the Smithsonian in 1974 and 75 to push this theory. Only problem is all her evidence for a Olmec-Shang contact is actually 800-1000 years older than both civilizations.
Do you have a link for this?
You are aware that both had civilizations that dated long before europeans found them right? The chinese had a written language and history that proves the "god flooding the earth" was a hoax. Yet this doesn't stop many americans from claiming the earth is 6000 years old and there definitely was a global flood.
Like the flat earth at the time, everyone else knew it, but that didn't stop the europeans from denying it, until it was proven to them and that guy got the credit for it.
I'd assume the same will go for evolution, whoever can finally prove it to those that deny it, will get credit for discovering it. Then given enough time you'll have christians saying that christians believed in evolution since Darwin brought it up.
Is it plausible that europeans thought the earth was flat, absolutely, even today 1 out of 4 american christians either don't know the earth goes around the sun or deny it. So I highly doubt the flat earth was just a myth created by anyone to smear the church. It's highly likely the majority of them believed it. Scholars may have known otherwise, but since when does that influence the entire population. Biology takes for granted evolution is a real and provable fact, yet look at the large number of people who deny it.
Then we have the lost book of enoch, which is all about how flat the earth was, I know it's not canon now, but they did find parts of it with the dead sea scrolls.
The Book of Enoch was extant centuries before the birth of Christ and yet is considered by many to be more Christian in its theology than Jewish. It was considered scripture by many early Christians. The earliest literature of the so-called “Church Fathers” is filled with references to this mysterious book. The early second century “Epistle of Barnabus” makes much use of the Book of Enoch. Second and Third Century “Church Fathers” like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch “Holy Scripture”. The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official canon. It was widely known and read the first three centuries after Christ.
Chapter 18
1I then surveyed the receptacles of all the winds, perceiving that they contributed to adorn the whole creation, and to preserve the foundation of the earth.
2I surveyed the stone which supports the corners of the earth.
3I also beheld the four winds, which bear up the earth, and the firmament of heaven.
4And I beheld the winds occupying the exalted sky.
5Arising in the midst of heaven and of earth, and constituting the pillars of heaven.
6I saw the winds which turn the sky, which cause the orb of the sun and of all the stars to set; and over the earth I saw the winds which support the clouds.
Apparently when they got around to rewriting the bible and deciding canon, This was getting to much, even for them. but I'd bet they got rid of Enoch because he never died, he walked with god to heaven, which took away from Jesus and his 3 day parlor trick
But AFAIK (I'm no historian), Chinese ships of the time weren't very well-designed for journeys on deep seas, but were made for shallower waters to hug the coasts. I could be wrong.
You would be correct as far as anyone knows. The first (proven) ship we know of that could traverse the oceans was the Viking long ship, which led to the later European Cog, Carrack, and Caravel. But the Long ship could not cross straight across the Atlantic and needed to island hop to get to North America.
Given the amount of circumstantial evidence to back Polynesian and South American contact, we would have to accept something along the same lines was developed by the Polynesians if we wanted to support that idea. While the Kon-Tiki was kind of a rough experiment, it does at least give credence that such voyages were possible, and like the Viking long ship, something like the Kon-Tiki could island hop its way across the Pacific.
The chinese had a written language and history that proves the "god flooding the earth" was a hoax. Yet this doesn't stop many americans from claiming the earth is 6000 years old and there definitely was a global flood.
I don't understand what this or the rest of your post has to do with anything...
but I'd bet they got rid of Enoch because he never died, he walked with god to heaven, which took away from Jesus and his 3 day parlor trick
Huh? Two people in the canon Bible as described outright as going straight to heaven. Jesus, and the Prophet Elijah*. So, I'm not sure why they would cut Enoch out for that. And that's just assuming they knew about Enoch. Enoch as far as anyone can tell was unknown to early Christians. Given the popularity of Eschatology in the early church and the quickly growing love interest many clerics had with Daniel and Revelation, it seems odd that none of them ever seem to talk about Enoch (the second half of which is all Eschatology). The earliest Christians had obviously read it because its quoted in Jude. But after the 3rd century, people just stop talking about it. Given the vast number of Christian writing in the early church, it's most likely that Enoch simply got drowned out rather than cast out.
*Elijah literally got to ride a chariot on the stairway to heaven
Eilif wrote: Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.
This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.
OK, right here guys... this is a perfect example of what I've been trying to tell you. This is a Perfect example of the Occidental propaganda victim or a propaganda pusher.
This nut cleric is not supported by majority of Saudi Arabia. He was a rare case in Saudi Arabia. He made news in Saudi Arabia because of his idiocy just like if some idiot preacher in USA were to make this kind of statement... he would be on CNN. Muslim majority are not idiots like this fool. Why is the West picking up on this news? Because it smear Islam and Saudi Arabia. It painted a negative narrative that the West enjoy mocking. This news clip is the poster boy for anti Islam and Saudi Arabia science.
This is like the case of where CNN news report about Duck Dynasty or West Bureau Baptist Church and the rest of the world assume that Americans are as idiots as these fools.
If you must throw insults... please direct at this cleric..
I don't recall attacking Islam in my post (In fact I deliberately avoided doing so), but is anything I said in my post about Saudi Arabia untrue? My statements may feel insulting, but they do have the advantage of being true.
My point is simply that a country as backwards as Saudi Arabia is fertile ground for all manner of ridiculousness. I don't deny that we in the west have more than our share of nutjobs, but our female citizens are allowed to choose whether or not to drive and walk uncovered.
Eilif wrote: Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.
This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.
OK, right here guys... this is a perfect example of what I've been trying to tell you. This is a Perfect example of the Occidental propaganda victim or a propaganda pusher.
This nut cleric is not supported by majority of Saudi Arabia. He was a rare case in Saudi Arabia. He made news in Saudi Arabia because of his idiocy just like if some idiot preacher in USA were to make this kind of statement... he would be on CNN. Muslim majority are not idiots like this fool. Why is the West picking up on this news? Because it smear Islam and Saudi Arabia. It painted a negative narrative that the West enjoy mocking. This news clip is the poster boy for anti Islam and Saudi Arabia science.
This is like the case of where CNN news report about Duck Dynasty or West Bureau Baptist Church and the rest of the world assume that Americans are as idiots as these fools.
If you must throw insults... please direct at this cleric..
I don't recall attacking Islam in my post (In fact I deliberately avoided doing so), but is anything I said in my post about Saudi Arabia untrue? My statements may feel insulting, but they do have the advantage of being true.
My point is simply that a country as backwards as Saudi Arabia is fertile ground for all manner of ridiculousness. I don't deny that we in the west have more than our share of nutjobs, but our female citizens are allowed to choose whether or not to drive and walk uncovered.
What you said in your post were not untrue but it was unnecessary related to the context of the cleric. It smeared Saudi Arabia and create the occidental propaganda that degrade Saudi Arabia.
It would be if I would equated the Duck Dynasty news to all the negative narrative of America such as mass shooting, drugs, and gangs. It would be out of context and unfair and blaming all the problems in America created Duck Dynasty.
Eilif wrote: Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.
This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.
OK, right here guys... this is a perfect example of what I've been trying to tell you. This is a Perfect example of the Occidental propaganda victim or a propaganda pusher.
Well, it is true that Saudi Arabia is an non-democratic monarchy with an egregious human right record. Is it not?
Eilif wrote: Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.
This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.
OK, right here guys... this is a perfect example of what I've been trying to tell you. This is a Perfect example of the Occidental propaganda victim or a propaganda pusher.
Well, it is true that Saudi Arabia is an non-democratic monarchy with an egregious human right record. Is it not?
Why are you asking me this? Why do I have to defend Saudi Arabia? The context of those statement has nothing to do with the Cleric.
Eilif wrote: Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.
This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.
OK, right here guys... this is a perfect example of what I've been trying to tell you. This is a Perfect example of the Occidental propaganda victim or a propaganda pusher.
Well, it is true that Saudi Arabia is an non-democratic monarchy with an egregious human right record. Is it not?
Hey! Those are just rumors. No one ever lived to tell the tale
I don't recall attacking Islam in my post (In fact I deliberately avoided doing so), but is anything I said in my post about Saudi Arabia untrue? My statements may feel insulting, but they do have the advantage of being true.
My point is simply that a country as backwards as Saudi Arabia is fertile ground for all manner of ridiculousness. I don't deny that we in the west have more than our share of nutjobs, but our female citizens are allowed to choose whether or not to drive and walk uncovered.
What you said in your post were not untrue but it was unnecessary related to the context of the cleric. It smeared Saudi Arabia and create the occidental propaganda that degrade Saudi Arabia.
It would be if I would equated the Duck Dynasty news to all the negative narrative of America such as mass shooting, drugs, and gangs. It would be out of context and unfair and blaming all the problems in America created Duck Dynasty.
Which is exactly what you did.
You may not like the context, but the truth doesn't have to be convenient. It's not "smear" or "propaganda" if it's objective truth backed up by fact. If Saudi Arabia is being "degrade"-ed by the truth, then it has only it's own self to blame.
Let's step past the the "occidental propaganda", "duck Dynasty', "unnecessary-related-to-context", etc doublespeak and get right to the point. Just to be clear…
Are you defending the fascism, oppression of women, lack of rule of law, totalitarianism and lack of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia?
…or...
Are you just annoyed to hear criticism of Saudi Arabia in a place you didn't expect?
I don't recall attacking Islam in my post (In fact I deliberately avoided doing so), but is anything I said in my post about Saudi Arabia untrue? My statements may feel insulting, but they do have the advantage of being true.
My point is simply that a country as backwards as Saudi Arabia is fertile ground for all manner of ridiculousness. I don't deny that we in the west have more than our share of nutjobs, but our female citizens are allowed to choose whether or not to drive and walk uncovered.
What you said in your post were not untrue but it was unnecessary related to the context of the cleric. It smeared Saudi Arabia and create the occidental propaganda that degrade Saudi Arabia.
It would be if I would equated the Duck Dynasty news to all the negative narrative of America such as mass shooting, drugs, and gangs. It would be out of context and unfair and blaming all the problems in America created Duck Dynasty.
Which is exactly what you did.
You may not like the context, but the truth doesn't have to be convenient.
Let's step past the the "occidental propaganda", "duck Dynasty', "unnecessary-related-to-context", etc doublespeak and get right to the point. Just to be clear…
Are you defending the fascism, oppression of women, lack of rule of law, totalitarianism and lack of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia?
…or...
Are you just annoyed to hear criticism of Saudi Arabia in a place you didn't expect?
I'm annoyed to hear criticism of saudi arabia in a place i didn't expect.
Because...
we are talking about a stupid cleric and discovery of science in the past.
I'm annoyed to hear criticism of saudi arabia in a place i didn't expect.
Because...
we are talking about a stupid cleric and discovery of science in the past.
In that case you'll just have to accept reading something you didn't expect.
The internet isn't ruled by Roberts Rules of Order and the dysfunction of Saudi society is certainly fair game for tangential discussion in a conversation related to a Saudi cleric.
I'm annoyed to hear criticism of saudi arabia in a place i didn't expect.
Because...
we are talking about a stupid cleric and discovery of science in the past.
In that case you'll just have to accept reading something you didn't expect.
The internet isn't ruled by Roberts Rules of Order and the dysfunction of Saudi society is certainly fair game for tangential discussion in a conversation related to a Saudi cleric.
Boy... I hate the King of Thailand and the current coup. I also hate the Yakuza in Japan. I also hate crimes in general.. Rapist and child molester and racist should be in my hate buckets too. Ugly Americans as in American tourist who act stupid and ethnocentric and not as in not attractive Americans. Mainland Chinese people who do not have travel experiences and do stupid things on the plane. I can go on.. but you get the idea.
We all can have a decent protocol of behaviors or we all can go anarchy....
I just didn't feel like hearing everybody bitching about the Saudis and turn this into a Saudi hate thread. I don't agree with many of their customs too.. but do you care about my feelings toward them? Do you need me to make you feel more reassure that you are not the only one who dislike Saudi Arabia's cultures? I really hate and annoyed having to listen to other people's emotional feeling about topics that has nothing to do with the discussion. Kind of like Grand Standing I guess.
In that case you'll just have to accept reading something you didn't expect.
The internet isn't ruled by Roberts Rules of Order and the dysfunction of Saudi society is certainly fair game for tangential discussion in a conversation related to a Saudi cleric.
Boy... I hate the King of Thailand and the current coup. I also hate the Yakuza in Japan. I also hate crimes in general.. Rapist and child molester and racist should be in my hate buckets too. Ugly Americans as in American tourist who act stupid and ethnocentric and not as in not attractive Americans. Mainland Chinese people who do not have travel experiences and do stupid things on the plane. I can go on.. but you get the idea.
We all can have a decent protocol of behaviors or we all can go anarchy....
If you think that Thailand, Yakuza, ugly Americans, tourists and Chinese people are as related (or unrelated as the case may be) to an article about a Saudi cleric as Saudi society, then that's your business.
But you'd be wrong. The later is context, and an acceptable tangent. The former are drastically more unrelated.
Because you are annoyed by terrible anti-Saudi Arabia propaganda. Fight it by showing how Saudi Arabia is actually a so cool country. While I eat pop-corn and watch.
In that case you'll just have to accept reading something you didn't expect.
The internet isn't ruled by Roberts Rules of Order and the dysfunction of Saudi society is certainly fair game for tangential discussion in a conversation related to a Saudi cleric.
Boy... I hate the King of Thailand and the current coup. I also hate the Yakuza in Japan. I also hate crimes in general.. Rapist and child molester and racist should be in my hate buckets too. Ugly Americans as in American tourist who act stupid and ethnocentric and not as in not attractive Americans. Mainland Chinese people who do not have travel experiences and do stupid things on the plane. I can go on.. but you get the idea.
We all can have a decent protocol of behaviors or we all can go anarchy....
If you think that Thailand, Yakuza, ugly Americans, tourists and Chinese people are as related (or unrelated as the case may be) to an article about a Saudi cleric as Saudi society, then that's your business.
But you'd be wrong. The later is context, and an acceptable tangent. The former are drastically more unrelated.
In that case you'll just have to accept reading something you didn't expect.
The internet isn't ruled by Roberts Rules of Order and the dysfunction of Saudi society is certainly fair game for tangential discussion in a conversation related to a Saudi cleric.
Boy... I hate the King of Thailand and the current coup. I also hate the Yakuza in Japan. I also hate crimes in general.. Rapist and child molester and racist should be in my hate buckets too. Ugly Americans as in American tourist who act stupid and ethnocentric and not as in not attractive Americans. Mainland Chinese people who do not have travel experiences and do stupid things on the plane. I can go on.. but you get the idea.
We all can have a decent protocol of behaviors or we all can go anarchy....
If you think that Thailand, Yakuza, ugly Americans, tourists and Chinese people are as related (or unrelated as the case may be) to an article about a Saudi cleric as Saudi society, then that's your business.
But you'd be wrong. The later is context, and an acceptable tangent. The former are drastically more unrelated.
I don't know how you can equated women's rights abuse to a cleric who think the earth is flat. This kind of misplacement of responsibility and blames is the start of ignorance and "occidental bias". You misplace the blame and information on a guy who Saudi don't give a crap and consider that Cleric a JOKE. You become ignorant. You became a victim of a Propaganda to smear Saudi people and their culture. IF THIS CLERIC WAS THE ROYAL SAUDIS FAMILY, then you can draw the connection or at least see how stupid the royals are. This was a isolated incident and a funny news the Saudis reported for themselves to laugh at.
This is like my example of drawing conclusion of Westboro baptist church to other problems in America. It is annoying as hell to see misplacement of responsibility and just ignorance statement and drawing false conclusion.
You want to be sheep and be lead by FOX NEWS propaganda team to push their agenda? This is the type of stuff that FOX NEWS loves to put on and convince Americans that Saudi Clerics and the Saudis people are stupid. I don't like Saudis culture, but I don't want to be sheep. I rather see Saudis as who they really are and consider this Cleric as nothing more that a pop funny news of the week.
david choe wrote: I don't like Saudis culture, but I don't want to be sheep. I rather see Saudis as who they really are and consider this Cleric as nothing more that a pop funny news of the week.
All right what is Saudi Arabia and who are the Saudis?
Clarify for us where my assessment is wrong.
I'm not picking on the Saudi's because I harbor a particular dislike for them or because I've been brainwashed by Fox News (I get my media from NPR). I'm picking on the Saudi's because they're systematically oppressing women and minorities. Further, they're doing so with breathtaking scope and medieval methods. The Saudi's may think that this cleric is a joke, but they (and I include the Royals in this) seem to think the same thing about (or at least give the same amount of respect for) women's rights, the rule of law and the rights of religious minorities. Pointing this out does not mean that I'm engaging in "occidental bias" "Propoganda" or whatever doublespeak term you choose to apply. I'm not the victim here, and neither is the Saudi state. The folks living under the threat of flogging, stoning, beheading or unjust imprisonment are the victims.
Saudi policy and leadership does not get a pass or even a "don't-mention-it-here" because they may or may not agree with a cleric who thinks the earth is the center of the universe.
In that case you'll just have to accept reading something you didn't expect.
The internet isn't ruled by Roberts Rules of Order and the dysfunction of Saudi society is certainly fair game for tangential discussion in a conversation related to a Saudi cleric.
Boy... I hate the King of Thailand and the current coup. I also hate the Yakuza in Japan. I also hate crimes in general.. Rapist and child molester and racist should be in my hate buckets too. Ugly Americans as in American tourist who act stupid and ethnocentric and not as in not attractive Americans. Mainland Chinese people who do not have travel experiences and do stupid things on the plane. I can go on.. but you get the idea.
We all can have a decent protocol of behaviors or we all can go anarchy....
If you think that Thailand, Yakuza, ugly Americans, tourists and Chinese people are as related (or unrelated as the case may be) to an article about a Saudi cleric as Saudi society, then that's your business.
But you'd be wrong. The later is context, and an acceptable tangent. The former are drastically more unrelated.
I don't know how you can equated women's rights abuse to a cleric who think the earth is flat. This kind of misplacement of responsibility and blames is the start of ignorance and "occidental bias". You misplace the blame and information on a guy who Saudi don't give a crap and consider that Cleric a JOKE. You become ignorant. You became a victim of a Propaganda to smear Saudi people and their culture. IF THIS CLERIC WAS THE ROYAL SAUDIS FAMILY, then you can draw the connection or at least see how stupid the royals are. This was a isolated incident and a funny news the Saudis reported for themselves to laugh at.
This is like my example of drawing conclusion of Westboro baptist church to other problems in America. It is annoying as hell to see misplacement of responsibility and just ignorance statement and drawing false conclusion.
You want to be sheep and be lead by FOX NEWS propaganda team to push their agenda? This is the type of stuff that FOX NEWS loves to put on and convince Americans that Saudi Clerics and the Saudis people are stupid. I don't like Saudis culture, but I don't want to be sheep. I rather see Saudis as who they really are and consider this Cleric as nothing more that a pop funny news of the week.
1) You're the first to bring up Fox News. No one else has mentioned them and/or their agenda and to assume we are because we disagree with you is insulting.
2) I find it funny it's totally okay to bash "occidentals" but turn it on Saudi Arabia and it's a step too far.
3) No one's called Saudi Arabia or their people stupid. Some of them I imagine are actually quite nice and probably very smart. Everyone here has been having a reasonmable discussion and you seem to have some emotional problem as you keep bringing up this "occidental bias". Seriously, I don't know what axe you're grinding, but its gotta be pretty fething sharp by now.
Here's a hint: if you're referring to the women of the Middle East as "their" women, you should probably think a bit about what that statement implies and why that is bad.
I said Chinese as in a scientist from China. I mean... the west didn't consider the round theory in 1492 year... right? It was just Columbus. So yes, some Chinese scientist discover the round earth theory before 1492. Look it up yourself, too lazy.
Just as in the Greek example, they as in some scientist ( I don't have the names) discover in the BCs of the round earth theory.
I'm not getting paid to educate you, so look it up yourself. If you don't believe me, like I care right?
Your language to me is salty too, take a chill pill man. I didn't open up books and take down dates to report to you guys.. this is Dakka, I'm not doing an EXPOSE on the discovery.
However, most people who have some higher education knows the fact what I'm saying is true. My dates might be off, but like I said.. .who the F cares.. that I said Quran was off by 150 years. Again, not doing EXPOSE here.
You seems like the kind of guy who actually think that what you learned in school is correct and think that I am full of air.. so you went to Wikki. Good for you. Now do a bit more of that and find the names of the Chinese and the Greek who discover the round earth theory before Columbus and report to us.
BTW - another controversial subject of China discover Americas before Columbus by about 100 years is interesting. I'm not sure of this subject... but look up Gavin Menzies and his Map. I read about this over breakfast a few years back.. so I'm not saying it is fact... search it yourself.
What an excellent example of why I avoid OTF. Thanks for the reminder.
David Choe has stated to me that he was being sarcastic in the post I deleted using the phrase "savages".
In general, please remember that tone is very hard to read over the internet and if a comment can be construed as racist, it would be much better just not to post it. Thanks.
If possible let's move the discussion on, please, or if not possible and the thread has reached the end of it's usefulness it will just be locked.
Bran Dawri wrote: I'm no historian, but isn't it possible that some of those discoveries made first by the Chines were in also made by Europeans independently at some later point in time?
Not talking about the obvious Greek/Babylonian/Egyptian civilizations' discoveries here, but the later ones like the printing press and things.)
Yes. You see this all the time. Pretty much every ancient culture discovered Pythagorean triples independently, for example.
Sounds to me like he is an essentialist, actually. His whole post about how Arabs (or Middle Eastern people, he is not clear on that) are different people and therefore human rights are maybe not what they need was very cringeworthy.
RiTides wrote: David Choe has stated to me that he was being sarcastic in the post I deleted using the phrase "savages".
I hope he's been being sarcastic in the rest of this all too, it sounds like he's spouting inflammatory rhetoric for the sake of being inflammatory.
Sounds to me like his hearts in the right place. But English not being his native language.
He's opening mouth inserting foot.
I don't know, I make a remark to the effect that this isn't really an issue worth getting pissed about and fill out a vague historical reference he made and he jumps down my throat for being blind and falling for propaganda that's pushing my ethnocentric philosophy? Insulting people out of left field for things that have absolutely nothing to do with their comments isn't something I normally ascribe to foot-in-mouth disease.
I might be being a bit generous, but he's a new poster from Thailand. and may have gotten his wires crossed so to speak.
For all we know, he could be using google translate. We will soon find out as he settles in.
david choe wrote: I mean... the west didn't consider the round theory in 1492 year... right? It was just Columbus. So yes, some Chinese scientist discover the round earth theory before 1492.
Bit of advice: if you're going to complain about other people not doing their research you should probably do a bit of research yourself. The idea that Columbus discovered that the earth was round is a myth based on a work of fiction and retold by teachers who don't know any better, it has nothing to do with reality. Every educated person in 1492 knew that the earth was round, it was Columbus who was an uninformed idiot. The objection to his proposed trip wasn't that he'd fall off the edge of the earth, it was that the westward trip to Asia was beyond the endurance of the ships of the time. And you know what? His opponents were absolutely correct, and Columbus probably would have died along with everyone else on his ships if he hadn't reached a previously-unknown continent by sheer blind luck.
I don't see the issue, this guy is clearly an idiot, and if he is allowed to teach others, then the people allowing it are idiots, im all for idiots holding themselves back technologically and culturally, it means they will never be in a position to threaten (in any meaningful way) any of the great nations of the world.
As to the Savages comment, yes the people in the middle east (and rest of the world) who rape, burn people alive, spout religious nonsense etc. ARE savages, and should not be treated with the same respect and civility that we treat each other, hate me and my comment all you like people, it doesn't change that black, white, Asian etc. if you are a sub human douche bag who condones or does this stuff, you need to be gotten rid of.
Formosa wrote: I don't see the issue, this guy is clearly an idiot, and if he is allowed to teach others, then the people allowing it are idiots, im all for idiots holding themselves back technologically and culturally, it means they will never be in a position to threaten (in any meaningful way) any of the great nations of the world.
And I suppose you don't have any sympathy for the innocent victims of the leaders holding their countries back, as long as it keeps those countries from being a threat to yours?
As to the Savages comment, yes the people in the middle east (and rest of the world) who rape, burn people alive, spout religious nonsense etc. ARE savages, and should not be treated with the same respect and civility that we treat each other, hate me and my comment all you like people, it doesn't change that black, white, Asian etc. if you are a sub human douche bag who condones or does this stuff, you need to be gotten rid of.
Do you understand the difference between criticizing the actions of people who do commit horrible crimes and declaring an entire region of the world to be "savages"? One is legitimate outrage, the other is blatant racism.
Formosa wrote: I don't see the issue, this guy is clearly an idiot, and if he is allowed to teach others, then the people allowing it are idiots, im all for idiots holding themselves back technologically and culturally, it means they will never be in a position to threaten (in any meaningful way) any of the great nations of the world.
As to the Savages comment, yes the people in the middle east (and rest of the world) who rape, burn people alive, spout religious nonsense etc. ARE savages, and should not be treated with the same respect and civility that we treat each other, hate me and my comment all you like people, it doesn't change that black, white, Asian etc. if you are a sub human douche bag who condones or does this stuff, you need to be gotten rid of.
It's long been speculated that the Saudis have a deal with Pakistan. Should Iran get nukes, The Saudi's will get theirs delivered.
... people still think lemmings throw themselves off cliffs in mass suicides based on a crappy video that Disney filmed once. It's not difficult to see how ideas get planted in people's heads, and then, because they feel that the source is credible, will just repeat it, spreading it far and wide, until it is believed to be factual... when (in this case of lemming suicide) it's entirely fabricated.
I've heard a lot of myths that just aren't true (some don't even hold up to common sense). There are a lot of them. Many fade as time goes on. Like the gladiator one near the top of that Wiki article I think has kind of become more commonly known as false, but others like the Flat Earth myth and that people before modern times died at 30 myth continue to persist in the popular mind.
Psienesis wrote: ... people still think lemmings throw themselves off cliffs in mass suicides based on a crappy video that Disney filmed once. It's not difficult to see how ideas get planted in people's heads, and then, because they feel that the source is credible, will just repeat it, spreading it far and wide, until it is believed to be factual... when (in this case of lemming suicide) it's entirely fabricated.
But if we don't cling to the stereotypes, I can't pretentiously point and say "Ten thousand lemmings can't be wrong!"
Formosa wrote: I don't see the issue, this guy is clearly an idiot, and if he is allowed to teach others, then the people allowing it are idiots, im all for idiots holding themselves back technologically and culturally, it means they will never be in a position to threaten (in any meaningful way) any of the great nations of the world.
This kind of lack of understanding is hardly unique to the middle east. In fact I would argue it is part of human nature. People often believe what feels "right" to them. Children get hyper from sugar, heavy objects fall faster than light object, goldfish have a 30 second memory, we only use 10% of our brains, gambler's fallacy. All things people "Know" that are wrong, but people people will argue with them all day long. Hell, doctors are massively over prescribing antibiotics because people KNOW that they will cure a cold and demand them. This is far more dangerous than someone who is confused by zeno's paradox. This guy may be wrong, but race or religion are nothing to do with it and he is hardly dangerous. Unlike "anti vaxxers" and people demanding antibiotics.
Except that in Saudi Arabia, the king is required by law to follow Sharia and the Ulema (body of religious leader) plays a direct role in government.
This is not to say that the leadership agrees with this particular cleric, but being a religions leader in Saudi Arabia is inseparable from politics and more serious than "just a religious leader".
Steve steveson wrote: Yes, thank you, I'm aware of that. The joke was about the fact that some people in the US vote for people with similarly unscientific ideas...
Steve steveson wrote: Yes, thank you, I'm aware of that. The joke was about the fact that some people in the US vote for people with similarly unscientific ideas...
What? Now that's just silly
Thats some top self contradiction their.
I wonder if he thinks the sun revolves around the earth?
At least everyone can agree that the earth is at the center of the universe.
Not the earth. Me. I am the center of the universe. When I get on a plane, the rest of you (well, everyone not on the plane with me) move under until the universe has moved so that the plane can land where I want to go.
david choe wrote: I mean... the west didn't consider the round theory in 1492 year... right? It was just Columbus. So yes, some Chinese scientist discover the round earth theory before 1492.
Bit of advice: if you're going to complain about other people not doing their research you should probably do a bit of research yourself. The idea that Columbus discovered that the earth was round is a myth based on a work of fiction and retold by teachers who don't know any better, it has nothing to do with reality. Every educated person in 1492 knew that the earth was round, it was Columbus who was an uninformed idiot. The objection to his proposed trip wasn't that he'd fall off the edge of the earth, it was that the westward trip to Asia was beyond the endurance of the ships of the time. And you know what? His opponents were absolutely correct, and Columbus probably would have died along with everyone else on his ships if he hadn't reached a previously-unknown continent by sheer blind luck.
I told him that on page two, so I guess you get to join the "dirty Occidental" club with me. If you fix the drinks, I'll fix the sandwiches!
Bran Dawri wrote: Not the earth. Me. I am the center of the universe. When I get on a plane, the rest of you (well, everyone not on the plane with me) move under until the universe has moved so that the plane can land where I want to go.
Futurama did a joke about this. The thrusters don't move the ship, they move the universe until the plane is where it wants to be
Formosa wrote: I don't see the issue, this guy is clearly an idiot, and if he is allowed to teach others, then the people allowing it are idiots, im all for idiots holding themselves back technologically and culturally, it means they will never be in a position to threaten (in any meaningful way) any of the great nations of the world.
And I suppose you don't have any sympathy for the innocent victims of the leaders holding their countries back, as long as it keeps those countries from being a threat to yours?
As to the Savages comment, yes the people in the middle east (and rest of the world) who rape, burn people alive, spout religious nonsense etc. ARE savages, and should not be treated with the same respect and civility that we treat each other, hate me and my comment all you like people, it doesn't change that black, white, Asian etc. if you are a sub human douche bag who condones or does this stuff, you need to be gotten rid of.
Do you understand the difference between criticizing the actions of people who do commit horrible crimes and declaring an entire region of the world to be "savages"? One is legitimate outrage, the other is blatant racism.
He is being allowed to hold his country back, if the people don't like it then they can do something about it, I know its not nice for such things to happen, but when a government becomes that corrupt or an ideology is holding you back, then it needs to change, its up to them to do so.
And yep I understand the difference, and I expanded upon it, I went on to say that ANYONE, REGARDLESS OF RACE OR CREED OR RELIGION (not shouting, just spelling out clearly for your sake) is a SAVAGE if they commit these offences, again, ANYONE, you clearly however don't know the difference between condemning these actions and not being racist.
example: All middle eastern people are savages (clearly racist)
Example: All people in the middle east and the rest of the world who act savagely are savages (Clearly not racist and not condoning animalistic behaviour)
So please next time before you attempt to jump down my neck, learn to read properly.
) who can not comprehend a slight difference in translating latitude and longitude to distance, and instead have to use spherical coordinates
).
