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2015/02/19 07:33:24
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
Tell that to the occidentals, the rest of the world is quite humble in this aspect.
The vast majority of people in the world don't care who invented X first. It is a leisure argument.
Go look at any history books at occidental schools, The most stupidest claim......Columbus discover American! I guess the Vikings didn't count....how about the natives? The Indians been around for more than a 1000s years!
I just like to learn the truth, btw.....i am of mixed euro,asia, and natives american. I don't give a crap who invented first, just the truthiswhat I want in my brain. Because of my mixed background...I hate bias because the result is ignorance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bran Dawri wrote: I'm no historian, but isn't it possible that some of those discoveries made first by the Chines were in also made by Europeans independently at some later point in time?
Not talking about the obvious Greek/Babylonian/Egyptian civilizations' discoveries here, but the later ones like the printing press and things.)
I don't know for sure, but my theory is that Marco Polo or some traders from the Silk Road must have imported the 4 major discoveries to the west like: paper, printing press, gun powder, and pasta?
I think the oldest most advanced civilization were greek, Egyptian, Babylonian ...I think at around 3000 bc and China was around 2000 bc. Top of my head here.
The only civilization from ancient time that is still consider a powerful force in military and economy left is China. The restate gak now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/19 07:46:52
KMFDM
2015/02/19 07:58:54
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
Lordofhats does some good posts david, don't be so quick to judge, give him a bit of time he'll grow on you like fungas.
And then I sell you the anti-fungal spray. It's impossible not to make money
I'm no historian, but isn't it possible that some of those discoveries made first by the Chines were in also made by Europeans independently at some later point in time?
A good example is the Copernican model of the Heliocentric universe (how topical!). Tusi, who I mentioned early in the thread, produced a nearly identical model two centuries before Copernicus. The models are so similar some historians are utterly convinced that Copernicus had to have somehow had access to Tusi's work. Except no one can figure out how. There are no connections between the men to be drawn or any sign that Copernicus, his teachers or partners, had ever even heard of Tusi. Tusi, like Galileo, got laughed out of the room by everyone else and became an outcast, so his work until recently was very obscure. As far as the evidence goes, Tusi and Copernicus were just two guys who produced almost identical work completely independent of one another.
Another debatable example is the Law of Refraction. Ibn Sahl had created an solid mathematical proof in 984, which was popularized by his student Alhazen. Europeans wouldn't rediscover this law on their own for nearly 600 years, when Thomas Harriot produced a similar proof but never published it in 1601. The law as we know it today, Snell's Law, wouldn't be published until 1621. Snell and Harriot did not have access to the work of Ibn Sahl. All of his work was burned to the ground with the rest of Baghdad by the Mongols. The only examples we have of his work are in citations and copies of others, namely his student Alhazen (who was super obsessed with refraction).
EDIT: Then there's the radio, flight, photography. Independent discovery happens all the time. But there's also plenty of evidence for say, fire arms, and their migration from China, to the Middle East, and then to Europe. Paper making as well. Contact between Europe and China is a vague and unclear area of history. It is only recently that we learned Ancient Rome and the Han Dynasty were aware of the other existing. Aware enough that both had attempted to make contact with the other!
the printing press and things.)
Korea. While China had made use of Wood Block printing for production of tests like The Book of Han, and later developed moveable type themselves in the 11th century (about 100-150 years before Europeans began developing the same technology independently). But Korea had created a wooden moveable press system as early as the mid 9th century and then, for whatever baffling reason, they forgot about it! Moveable type wouldn't return until the 13th century when the Chinese brought their own system over.
*Contrary to popular belief, Gutenburg did not invent the Printing Press in Europe, just the first to create a metal moveable type system.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/02/19 08:13:43
All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.
My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.
What's really impressive here is the fact that you're claiming that the Quran said the earth was round 1000 years before Columbus, despite said texts not being in existence at that time.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2015/02/19 09:52:19
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.
My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.
What's really impressive here is the fact that you're claiming that the Quran said the earth was round 1000 years before Columbus, despite said texts not being in existence at that time.
Damnit, you beat me to it
Seems a bit nitpicky, but the Quran was begun un 610CE, and Columbus died in 1506.
Some quick wikipedia references too:
In ancient China, the prevailing belief was that the Earth was flat and square, while the heavens were round,[49] an assumption virtually unquestioned until the introduction of European astronomy in the 17th century.[50][51][52] The English sinologist Cullen emphasizes the point that there was no concept of a round Earth in ancient Chinese astronomy:
Chinese thought on the form of the earth remained almost unchanged from early times until the first contacts with modern science through the medium of Jesuit missionaries in the seventeenth century. While the heavens were variously described as being like an umbrella covering the earth (the Kai Tian theory), or like a sphere surrounding it (the Hun Tian theory), or as being without substance while the heavenly bodies float freely (the Hsüan yeh theory), the earth was at all times flat, although perhaps bulging up slightly.[53]
Ming China
As late as 1595, an early Jesuit missionary to China, Matteo Ricci, recorded that the Chinese say: "The earth is flat and square, and the sky is a round canopy; they did not succeed in conceiving the possibility of the antipodes."[57][114] The universal belief in a flat Earth is confirmed by a contemporary Chinese encyclopedia from 1609 illustrating a flat Earth extending over the horizontal diametral plane of a spherical heaven.[57]
In the 17th century, the idea of a spherical Earth spread in China due to the influence of the Jesuits, who held high positions as astronomers at the imperial court.[115]
The irony of this is that the person doing the criticising doesn't even want to look at wikipedia. I fear that this is the same sort of person that will make the fashionable claim so popular with my Year 8 students that wikipedia is not a reliable source.
Though guards may sleep and ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.
All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.
My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.
What's really impressive here is the fact that you're claiming that the Quran said the earth was round 1000 years before Columbus, despite said texts not being in existence at that time.
Nit picking here, but ok... it is the internet.
Columbus was around 1492 AD Quran was around 650 AD
So if you want to do the math you can... the point still stand. So it was about 850 years... point taken.
So the Cleric was wrong and his Islam religion even pointed out to him by his holy book over 1400 years ago (don't do the math here... just go with it). The Quran stated the round earth theory 850 before Columbus then. Happy
All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.
My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.
What's really impressive here is the fact that you're claiming that the Quran said the earth was round 1000 years before Columbus, despite said texts not being in existence at that time.
Damnit, you beat me to it
Seems a bit nitpicky, but the Quran was begun un 610CE, and Columbus died in 1506.
Some quick wikipedia references too:
In ancient China, the prevailing belief was that the Earth was flat and square, while the heavens were round,[49] an assumption virtually unquestioned until the introduction of European astronomy in the 17th century.[50][51][52] The English sinologist Cullen emphasizes the point that there was no concept of a round Earth in ancient Chinese astronomy:
Chinese thought on the form of the earth remained almost unchanged from early times until the first contacts with modern science through the medium of Jesuit missionaries in the seventeenth century. While the heavens were variously described as being like an umbrella covering the earth (the Kai Tian theory), or like a sphere surrounding it (the Hun Tian theory), or as being without substance while the heavenly bodies float freely (the Hsüan yeh theory), the earth was at all times flat, although perhaps bulging up slightly.[53]
Ming China
As late as 1595, an early Jesuit missionary to China, Matteo Ricci, recorded that the Chinese say: "The earth is flat and square, and the sky is a round canopy; they did not succeed in conceiving the possibility of the antipodes."[57][114] The universal belief in a flat Earth is confirmed by a contemporary Chinese encyclopedia from 1609 illustrating a flat Earth extending over the horizontal diametral plane of a spherical heaven.[57]
In the 17th century, the idea of a spherical Earth spread in China due to the influence of the Jesuits, who held high positions as astronomers at the imperial court.[115]
The irony of this is that the person doing the criticising doesn't even want to look at wikipedia. I fear that this is the same sort of person that will make the fashionable claim so popular with my Year 8 students that wikipedia is not a reliable source.
LOL. . . ..
I said Chinese as in a scientist from China. I mean... the west didn't consider the round theory in 1492 year... right? It was just Columbus. So yes, some Chinese scientist discover the round earth theory before 1492. Look it up yourself, too lazy.
Just as in the Greek example, they as in some scientist ( I don't have the names) discover in the BCs of the round earth theory.
I'm not getting paid to educate you, so look it up yourself. If you don't believe me, like I care right?
Your language to me is salty too, take a chill pill man. I didn't open up books and take down dates to report to you guys.. this is Dakka, I'm not doing an EXPOSE on the discovery.
However, most people who have some higher education knows the fact what I'm saying is true. My dates might be off, but like I said.. .who the F cares.. that I said Quran was off by 150 years. Again, not doing EXPOSE here.
You seems like the kind of guy who actually think that what you learned in school is correct and think that I am full of air.. so you went to Wikki. Good for you. Now do a bit more of that and find the names of the Chinese and the Greek who discover the round earth theory before Columbus and report to us.
BTW - another controversial subject of China discover Americas before Columbus by about 100 years is interesting. I'm not sure of this subject... but look up Gavin Menzies and his Map. I read about this over breakfast a few years back.. so I'm not saying it is fact... search it yourself.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/19 10:45:43
KMFDM
2015/02/19 11:01:45
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
Columbus was around 1492 AD Quran was around 650 AD
So if you want to do the math you can... the point still stand. So it was about 850 years... point taken.
So the Cleric was wrong and his Islam religion even pointed out to him by his holy book over 1400 years ago (don't do the math here... just go with it). The Quran stated the round earth theory 850 before Columbus then. Happy
Well, sure, aside from the places where it also says that the earth is "made for you the earth like a carpet spread out", which sounds pretty incompatible with round.
The ancient Greeks attribute a round earth theory to Pythagorias and Parmenides too. That was in the BC era, which would predate Galleo, Columbus, the Quran, and Leif Erikson. The only reason anyone really gives a damn about Columbus is that he "proved" it first, for some values of prove, and he had better PR on his side.
More importantly: What does it matter? Either way? There might have been some lost understanding that we still haven't recovered from back when the Middle East was actually a location of significant scientific research and thinking. There could still be amazing knowledge that was found there before their modern Dark Ages that we haven't even rediscovered yet.. What doesn't matter so much is who got there first, waving pennants for the home team, but what you actually DO with the knowledge.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/19 11:03:21
Columbus was around 1492 AD Quran was around 650 AD
So if you want to do the math you can... the point still stand. So it was about 850 years... point taken.
So the Cleric was wrong and his Islam religion even pointed out to him by his holy book over 1400 years ago (don't do the math here... just go with it). The Quran stated the round earth theory 850 before Columbus then. Happy
Well, sure, aside from the places where it also says that the earth is "made for you the earth like a carpet spread out", which sounds pretty incompatible with round.
The ancient Greeks attribute a round earth theory to Pythagorias and Parmenides too. That was in the BC era, which would predate Galleo, Columbus, the Quran, and Leif Erikson. The only reason anyone really gives a damn about Columbus is that he "proved" it first, for some values of prove, and he had better PR on his side.
More importantly: What does it matter? Either way? There might have been some lost understanding that we still haven't recovered from back when the Middle East was actually a location of significant scientific research and thinking. There could still be amazing knowledge that was found there before their modern Dark Ages that we haven't even rediscovered yet.. What doesn't matter so much is who got there first, waving pennants for the home team, but what you actually DO with the knowledge.
Preaching to the choir here. Somebody was trying to nit pick with me. If you read my post, it was off the cuff post about who came before Columbus... didn't expect that I had to go do an EXPOSE with dates here.
KMFDM
2015/02/19 11:11:10
Subject: Re:Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
daedalus wrote: To be fair, the last bit was directed as a general question to the floor, not just you.
No problem.
I'm not a religion scolar or Islam specialist at that. The Quran (about the round earth) was one of those ... so many Muslim have told me and show me the quotes and many Muslim believe that the earth is round kind of thing. This is why I was surprise that the Islamic Cleric was a Muslim ... so WTF? I don't give a crap about any holy books from 1,500 years or 2,000 years ago. To me it was all men writing gak and it was so vague that you can interprets it as anything.
Constantine made the bible in around 350AD right?
Did Islam got its' religion and the Quran together around 650AD. I mean it was all together right? Unlike Christian... where their Bible came almost 300 years later.
Is Islam old testament identical with the Bible old testament?
What I want to know is if Arabs were worshiping God (Allah) before Muhammad. And after Muhammad, they must know that the God (Allah) they are worshiping is the same God as the God of the Jews, the Christian and now Islam right?
BTW - not directing at you, unless you know about this topic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/19 11:32:59
KMFDM
2015/02/19 11:40:48
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It is not just the Middle East. I have read that the leader of Boko Haram in Africa also claims The Earth is flat, largely in defiance of western teachings. What I find most disturbing about this stuff is that, unlike evolution which happens very slowly, the motion of the stars an planets is something you can observe yourself. The observations of scientists can be empirically tested with little more than a sextant and some determination. This is made super easy with the assistance of stargazing apps. The fact that smart phones with sat-nav even exists should be evidence enough that the person who put the satellites there knows their gak.
I'm reminded of the (apocryphal) anecdote about Aristotle. His statement that flies have four legs was repeated in natural history texts for more than a thousand years, despite the fact that a little counting would have proven otherwise. Why take people's word when you can just check yourself?
Counties in the east were a great source of science thousands of years ago, they had mathematicians, scientists snd scholars. But there's no pride in any of these values because it doesn't suit the interests of clerics, religious leaders and those in power. That's why they don't believe in education or free expression and thought.
I think that door swings both ways. Are people made ignorant by the power of religious leaders, or are religious leaders made powerful by people's ignorance. I remember as a child (about 11) plotting the positions of nearby stars onto a map, with nothing but a protractor and a book by Patrick Moore that listed their declination and hour angle. Granted, I did have a book, but it wasn't part of my education, and certainly not something my parents were interested in, I just wanted to know for myself. When I look back at ancient people, I'm constantly in awe of what they were able to achieve with so little. Even the simple neolithic people that built Stonehenge had the mental capacity to make calenders and accurately predict the solstice. When I look at modern people I'm constantly amazed by how dumb they are. Most people I meet, even in the UK, don't know anything, and they're not interested in knowing anything. They stare all day at TVs, phones and computers, and it never occurs to them to find out how those things work, even though the answer is literally a click away. They don't know the words for trees or flowers, or understand why spiders aren't insects. When I moved house I had to endure a mandatory lecture by the estate agent about how mould spreads because it is a "kind of bacteria". I corrected him that mould is caused by fungus, but my words were just met with a dumb expression and went straight over his head. The real tragedy is not that people are stupid, but that not-stupid people can't get a safer distance away from them all.
The Chinese discover the earth was round before the west by a few 100s years.
Source on that? Seeing as Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, already knowing that the earth was round, we're talking so far back in time that records start becoming rather spotty.
Let's don't make this a race. If Columbus people still think that you can fall off the earth, then the discovery is not public knowledge.
You'd have a point if people actually thought that at the time. Their objection to Columbus's journey was that they felt he was underestimating the circumference of the Earth, based on, among other things, Eratosthenes's work, and they were RIGHT. So yeah, tell us all about dismissing people's achievements.
But what do I know? I'm just a "dirty Occidental"...
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2015/02/19 11:54:44
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
I'm just going to say that Columbus didn't discover the Earth is round, nor did he set off to prove it; it was a known fact then. They just thought Columbus was daft when he attempted to sail West to Asia because his maths were terrible, he over-estimated Europe's width, the distance between Japan and China and other things.
Since the Greeks first discovered it (IIRC Pythagoras was the one (or one of the ones) that first said/discovered that), Europe has never really forgotten. the 'Flat-Earth Myth' is just that, a myth. Even people in medieval times knew the Earth was round.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/19 12:09:22
2015/02/19 12:03:56
Subject: Re:Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
david choe wrote: Did Islam got its' religion and the Quran together around 650AD. I mean it was all together right? Unlike Christian... where their Bible came almost 300 years later.
The Quran was written after Muhammad's death, but not long after, and contrarily to the Bible, there is only one version of it that is commonly accepted by every Muslim regardless of its branch of Islam.
david choe wrote: Is Islam old testament identical with the Bible old testament?
Actually, the Bible (both testament) having been modified by men is supposedly the reason for the Quran, who is supposed to be protected against all and any modification or alteration. Yeah, it does not make sense, I know. But as a result, Islam's “old testament” is not supposed to be taken literally anyway. But yeah, it is the same.
david choe wrote: What I want to know is if Arabs were worshiping God (Allah) before Muhammad.
They had different religions. Tons of Jewish tribes, also a bunch of polytheistic religions.
david choe wrote: And after Muhammad, they must know that the God (Allah) they are worshiping is the same God as the God of the Jews, the Christian and now Islam right?
And the Baha'i too. But those are usually considered heretics and very harshly persecuted.
I hope you enjoyed this dirty unwashed ignorant westerner that knows nothing about other cultures explaining you about Islam and 7th century Arabia.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/02/19 12:09:30
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
Howard A Treesong wrote: There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It is not just the Middle East. I have read that the leader of Boko Haram in Africa also claims The Earth is flat, largely in defiance of western teachings. What I find most disturbing about this stuff is that, unlike evolution which happens very slowly, the motion of the stars an planets is something you can observe yourself. The observations of scientists can be empirically tested with little more than a sextant and some determination. This is made super easy with the assistance of stargazing apps. The fact that smart phones with sat-nav even exists should be evidence enough that the person who put the satellites there knows their gak.
I'm reminded of the (apocryphal) anecdote about Aristotle. His statement that flies have four legs was repeated in natural history texts for more than a thousand years, despite the fact that a little counting would have proven otherwise. Why take people's word when you can just check yourself?
Counties in the east were a great source of science thousands of years ago, they had mathematicians, scientists snd scholars. But there's no pride in any of these values because it doesn't suit the interests of clerics, religious leaders and those in power. That's why they don't believe in education or free expression and thought.
I think that door swings both ways. Are people made ignorant by the power of religious leaders, or are religious leaders made powerful by people's ignorance. I remember as a child (about 11) plotting the positions of nearby stars onto a map, with nothing but a protractor and a book by Patrick Moore that listed their declination and hour angle. Granted, I did have a book, but it wasn't part of my education, and certainly not something my parents were interested in, I just wanted to know for myself. When I look back at ancient people, I'm constantly in awe of what they were able to achieve with so little. Even the simple neolithic people that built Stonehenge had the mental capacity to make calenders and accurately predict the solstice. When I look at modern people I'm constantly amazed by how dumb they are. Most people I meet, even in the UK, don't know anything, and they're not interested in knowing anything. They stare all day at TVs, phones and computers, and it never occurs to them to find out how those things work, even though the answer is literally a click away. They don't know the words for trees or flowers, or understand why spiders aren't insects. When I moved house I had to endure a mandatory lecture by the estate agent about how mould spreads because it is a "kind of bacteria". I corrected him that mould is caused by fungus, but my words were just met with a dumb expression and went straight over his head. The real tragedy is not that people are stupid, but that not-stupid people can't get a safer distance away from them all.
The Chinese discover the earth was round before the west by a few 100s years.
Source on that? Seeing as Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, already knowing that the earth was round, we're talking so far back in time that records start becoming rather spotty.
Let's don't make this a race. If Columbus people still think that you can fall off the earth, then the discovery is not public knowledge.
You'd have a point if people actually thought that at the time. Their objection to Columbus's journey was that they felt he was underestimating the circumference of the Earth, based on, among other things, Eratosthenes's work, and they were RIGHT. So yeah, tell us all about dismissing people's achievements.
But what do I know? I'm just a "dirty Occidental"...
That is my point...
The Chinese (Scientist not the country)discover the round earth theory before Columbus.
You didn't post the post after this one, I stated.....
Chinese,
Greek
Quran
as before Columbus.
I didn't give names or dates just estimate years in 100s... to show how long it was before Columbus. The Greek that I forgot the names is not Eratosthenes, but it was some other greek before him. Looked it up.. Greek Pythagoras did it about 500 BC
The quote you stated support my point, so what are you complaining about?
The Chinese scientist discover the round earth before by a few 100s years...
List of all the culture who discover the round / spherical earth theory.
If that article is correct, then I was wrong about the Chinese and I stand corrected.
I must have got confuse with the Indian who discover it around 500AD.
Islamic astronomy and Muslim mathematicians discover this round spherical theory around 800AD
I stand corrected with the mixed of Chinese and India... but the East discover this way before Columbus.
I knew I remember that the meca of Maths and science was from the middle east and European were still dealing with the dark ages.
KMFDM
2015/02/19 12:13:06
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
Columbus didn't discover nor set out to prove the world was round, that fact was known at the time (and had been known since the Pythagoras and all that discovered it).
2015/02/19 12:13:39
Subject: Re:Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2015/02/19 12:16:33
Subject: Re:Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
david choe wrote: Did Islam got its' religion and the Quran together around 650AD. I mean it was all together right? Unlike Christian... where their Bible came almost 300 years later.
The Quran was written after Muhammad's death, but not long after, and contrarily to the Bible, there is only one version of it that is commonly accepted by every Muslim regardless of its branch of Islam.
david choe wrote: Is Islam old testament identical with the Bible old testament?
Actually, the Bible (both testament) having been modified by men is supposedly the reason for the Quran, who is supposed to be protected against all and any modification or alteration. Yeah, it does not make sense, I know. But as a result, Islam's “old testament” is not supposed to be taken literally anyway. But yeah, it is the same.
david choe wrote: What I want to know is if Arabs were worshiping God (Allah) before Muhammad.
They had different religions. Tons of Jewish tribes, also a bunch of polytheistic religions.
david choe wrote: And after Muhammad, they must know that the God (Allah) they are worshiping is the same God as the God of the Jews, the Christian and now Islam right?
And the Baha'i too. But those are usually considered heretics and very harshly persecuted.
I hope you enjoyed this dirty unwashed ignorant westerner that knows nothing about other cultures explaining you about Islam and 7th century Arabia.
well... thank you for your explaining it to me. A savage like me need to be educated by the barbarians of the west now and again.
What do you mean by "and contrarily to the Bible,"... you mean that there are many version of the bible and only one version of Quran?
So you are saying that the old testament in Torah is different from the Bible and Quran? So OT same in Bible and Quran and different from Torah? Or are you saying that all 3 books have the same OT in it? How can any OT be different from the Torah, if it had the original OT?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Columbus didn't discover nor set out to prove the world was round, that fact was known at the time (and had been known since the Pythagoras and all that discovered it).
What! During the middle ages... European were in the dark ages. They theory of Pythagoras was lost. In fact, Pythagoras was never a popular belief in the first place.
I don't know about this one.... maybe scholar and scientist few (in the whole world) might believe that the earth was round... but most sea captain and sailors and general populations of the world didn't buy this theory or fact un till about 1500s.
BTW - I know what you did, you change your stance of the flat earth as a myth. You deleted all of it. The flat earth theory was not a myth. It was people ignorance.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/19 12:39:15
KMFDM
2015/02/19 12:49:19
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
Though you are right, I did screw up the bit about them remembering the Greeks. Most of the knowledge was lost. That said, they still believed the Earth was round. (I misinterpreted a single sentence from another article, what it actually said was that they held the same belief of the Earth being round as the Greeks did)
And I didn't delete my early statement, I edited them so they made sense in the context of the thread (note that I also state the the myth is a myth, where as before I only implied it).
2015/02/19 12:56:25
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
Also, the Chinese civilization today is nowhere near the same as that of the Emperors in much the same way as Western Civilization is not the same as the Greek or Roman civilizations. At best there is more continuity in the evolution of the culture and its heritage
A great many important ideologies came from these ancient forebears (on both sides), but to claim one is still the same civilization while the other is not is disingenuous at best.
2015/02/19 13:03:49
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
Though you are right, I did screw up the bit about them remembering the Greeks. Most of the knowledge was lost. That said, they still believed the Earth was round. (I misinterpreted a single sentence from another article, what it actually said was that they held the same belief of the Earth being round as the Greeks did)
And I didn't delete my early statement, I edited them so they made sense in the context of the thread (note that I also state the the myth is a myth, where as before I only implied it).
Funny enough... in your article... it stated that The Chinese and Muslim might have discover America before Columbus.
At this point I don't freaking know any more lol. I was convince that Chinese discover before 1500. Then I did some research.. it shows that it was the India that in around 900AD.. then now this article stated that the Chinese might have discover America before Columbus.
You are claiming that Flat earth was a myth since 500BC. Yet in may historical claims that it was not the case. There were maps showing edge of the world with sea monsters.
My theory is that majority consider it was flat because how can it be round ... they don't know about gravity. Some "rogue" scientist or sailor might think that it was all connected and round... but majority no way. Most can't even read or right and are superstitious as hell... how can they understand an idea such as round earth like an orange and we are on it.
KMFDM
2015/02/19 13:19:43
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
Frazzled wrote: Actually the British helped them get there. Has no one watched Lawrence of Arabia in the last 50 years?
True, it's very interesting how much late 19th and early 20th century meddling by the British gets dumped on the US.
That said, at least in this case the British have a reasonable defence that nobody saw the rise of Saudi Arabia happening. The place was one of the poorest countries in the world, if it is controlled by a bunch of religious fanatics, well that's no biggie. Then they found oil.
This is true. Plus the British stuffed them somewhat vs. what they actually promised.
Its an interesting question. What would have happened if the Ottoman Empire had not been broken up. Either reduced (Africa is freed) or left alone?
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david choe wrote: The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.
Who cares? Texas invented Tex Mex and Mexico invented tequila. Thats really all that matters.
david choe wrote: The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.
Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.
Not to mention things invented by the Greeks and Roman, hell, even the Babylonians, way before China. Science is about sharing, not about who discovered what first.
why has no one mentioned the Egyptians, or the Olmecs, or even the Phonecians who were incredible sailors and traders whilst most of the world was still finding out where it's arse was?
Damn occidental bias i tell you.
Davids right on one thing though, the amount of eastern discoveries claimed by Europeans circa and after the reformation is quite honestly astounding.It's like the Éuropeans discovered the eastern libraries or something.
Lordofhats does some good posts david, don't be so quick to judge, give him a bit of time he'll grow on you like fungas.
While not related to the topic, this is true. Many societies invented similar things at different times. Frankly, its glorious to see how different groups of people managed to achieved great things in similar but unique ways.
From major stuff like pyramids to simple things like a one man unpowered pump (dragon pump in Asia, the simple dip pump in Egypt). Brilliant!
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Bran Dawri wrote: I'm no historian, but isn't it possible that some of those discoveries made first by the Chines were in also made by Europeans independently at some later point in time?
Not talking about the obvious Greek/Babylonian/Egyptian civilizations' discoveries here, but the later ones like the printing press and things.)
Indeed, if you lok in history its happened many times, often in the same region.
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Go look at any history books at occidental schools, The most stupidest claim......Columbus discover American! I guess the Vikings didn't count....how about the natives? The Indians been around for more than a 1000s years!
He did discover the Americas. So di the Norse, the Inuit, the Polynesians, and the Siberians.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/02/19 13:27:51
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2015/02/19 13:38:43
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
I agree that the commoner wouldn't know (because as you say the couldn't read or write) but certainly priests, scholars (well, the equivalent of scholars) and sailors knew.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese discovered America before Columbus, the Vikings did.
Also the 'Flat-Earth Myth' is not that from 500BC onwards we've known that the Earth is round but that in Medieval times onwards we've known.
From the 7th Century (during the Dark Ages) at least Medieval Europe had knowledge of the Earth being round, though the Muslims certainly estimated the circumference more accurately before Medieval Europe.
I can't really comment on the maps as I've never actually seen images (and haven't found any) of an actual medieval map that has the world end. I think (shady memory here) that 'here be monsters' basically meant 'we don't know what's here as no one we know has been there)'.
I do know that we have several 'world maps' from before Columbus set sail in the 15th century, and several finished before he returned (including a globe of the earth)
2015/02/19 14:07:07
Subject: Re:Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
Islam's “old testament” is not supposed to be taken literally anyway. But yeah, it is the same.
As a reader of both versions, have to say theirs is funner
david choe wrote: What I want to know is if Arabs were worshiping God (Allah) before Muhammad.
This is actually a really good question and a giant historical ?. Pre-Islamic Arabic religion was never written anywhere, and the first Muslims seemed pretty avid in forgetting it entirely. We know that some practiced Christianity, and oddly enough Judaism as well, but whether these were the predominant beliefs of the region is unclear. The Quaran and some Hadith make some references to a tribal Monotheistic faith before Mohammad.
david choe wrote: And after Muhammad, they must know that the God (Allah) they are worshiping is the same God as the God of the Jews, the Christian and now Islam right?
Yeah they did. Jesus Christ is a Prophet in the Islamic faith. Christians and Jews got special considerations from Muslims that Zorastrians, Ba'Hai, and other religions did not. Christians and Jews just had to pay some taxes and weren't allowed to own certain items (Horses, sometimes weapons etc). As odd as it might seem today, early Islamic Culture was one of the most tolerant of its time.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese discovered America before Columbus, the Vikings did.
There's pretty much only one guy who claims this, and Gavin Menzies is a complete quack (not to mention more than a little crazy). Never before have I read a text where someone makes a claim and then proceeds to spend the entire book talking about his personal life travels while listing off nonsensical information about one of China's best Naval innovators and explorers. Ancient Aliens guy was better at producing evidence and;
He has way cooler hair.
His second book (that China sparked the Renaissance by sending a fleet to Italy) is even crazier.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/19 14:11:50
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese discovered America before Columbus, the Vikings did.
There's pretty much only one guy who claims this, and Gavin Menzies is a complete quack (not to mention more than a little crazy). Never before have I read a text where someone makes a claim and then proceeds to spend the entire book talking about his personal life travels while listing off nonsensical information about one of China's best Naval innovators and explorers. Ancient Aliens guy was better at producing evidence and;
He has way cooler hair.
His second book (that China sparked the Renaissance by sending a fleet to Italy) is even crazier.
david choe wrote: The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.
Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.
Not to mention things invented by the Greeks and Roman, hell, even the Babylonians, way before China. Science is about sharing, not about who discovered what first.
Tell that to the occidentals, the rest of the world is quite humble in this aspect.
david choe wrote: But we are not speaking in Chinese here and the subject and context is so full of occidental bias that somebody had to bring the balancing scale that was very skewed and correct it with facts. You seems like a level headed guy, then there is no point at trying to correct something that is not needed to be corrected. I agree but again, who is doing the standing up for the truth here? Just me. The unpopular voice of DakkaDakka.
Really running with that victim complex aren't you
How about you never reply to me and leave it at that. Just put me on ignore, I do not respect your POV in any post and most of the time... well it is really a waste of time to read your post.
Well, I'm guessing you're gonna say the occidentals stole it from the Chinese, but the term "having an axe to grind" springs to mind
The irony of this is that the person doing the criticising doesn't even want to look at wikipedia. I fear that this is the same sort of person that will make the fashionable claim so popular with my Year 8 students that wikipedia is not a reliable source.
I'm never "allowed" to use wikipedia in my academic works (I am in school to become a history teacher)... but that doesn't mean that I don't head to wiki, find articles related to whatever I'm going to write about, and mine the references section for good stuff
2015/02/19 14:45:36
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
david choe wrote: My theory is that majority consider it was flat because how can it be round ... they don't know about gravity. Some "rogue" scientist or sailor might think that it was all connected and round... but majority no way. Most can't even read or right and are superstitious as hell... how can they understand an idea such as round earth like an orange and we are on it.
You can either accept that pretty much every major scholar of the day accepted that the Earth was round, as evidenced by the collected writings we still have access to, or you can make up your own "facts" and "truth" and go with it. Based on earlier examples in this thread, I wish you luck.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2015/02/19 14:57:02
Subject: Re:Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
sirlynchmob wrote: When you see his references, quite a few people have claimed it.
No. I've seen this before. Mr. Koufman is simply repeating the arguments of Betty Meggers, a woman who used her position at the Smithsonian in 1974 and 75 to push this theory. Only problem is all her evidence for a Olmec-Shang contact is actually 800-1000 years older than both civilizations. On the plus side, she made huge contributions to the archeological reconstruction of pottery so she wasn't all bad But that's kind of beside my point. A major symposium was held on this subject back in 1968, which resulted in a flurry of work on the subject throughout the 70's (and not oh look a lot of the sources are from the 70s including the illustrious Meggers). This ended abruptly in the mid 80's because the entire idea is bunk. There are today, many questions about Polynesian contact with the Americas and lots of questions that would be answered by it (like how Chicken and Sweet Potatoes got to South America), but there is today only one prominent work still advocating Chinese contact, and it comes from a crazy person. EDIT: A crazy person who I now see has written a third book about how ancient Minos was Atlantis and had a pan-Atlantic sea empire XD
As to the paper I read about to page two, where he blatantly misused Schneider* and stopped reading and skipped to the end. Then I saw Stephen Jett. This I had to check out. Fortunately I found the author of this drivel misusing Jett right after he misued Schneider, so I didn't have to look far. How on earth this guy could have read Jett and still think there any merit to their long dead idea boggles the mind. Hell he's citing John Sorenson. The guy who has wasted 30 years of potential brilliance trying to prove (historically, not religiously) that Jesus Christ came to North America to give some Indians some golden plates. I see at least 2 other names (Key and Lin) who I highly doubt actually support this idea. Especially Key. So Ima call it there and say this guy is misusing source material.
*Schneider never advocating pre-Columbian contact. In fact he thought it a stupid idea. His work on the subject was one of methodology, not evidence as he thought a lot of his compatriots fell back on bad arguments trying to disprove a stupid idea.
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Ensis Ferrae wrote: I'm never "allowed" to use wikipedia in my academic works
This is honestly how it should be. The problem with Wikipedia isn't accuracy (numerous tests have found it to be just as accurate if not more son than major printed Encyclopedias), the problem is that the point of being a student is to do your own research. For all intents and purposes, Wikipedia Articles are collaborative research papers compiled by non-professionals. This isn't a slam against them that they can't be trusted, but rather a statement that students should be engaging actual source material, not a product of source material. EDIT: One of my professors openly stated that he would check our papers against Wikipedia to see if all we did was rewrite the articles in our own words.
And yes, the reference section can often be very useful. It's where I go to get my reading list
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/02/19 15:07:00
david choe wrote: My theory is that majority consider it was flat because how can it be round ... they don't know about gravity. Some "rogue" scientist or sailor might think that it was all connected and round... but majority no way. Most can't even read or right and are superstitious as hell... how can they understand an idea such as round earth like an orange and we are on it.
You can either accept that pretty much every major scholar of the day accepted that the Earth was round, as evidenced by the collected writings we still have access to, or you can make up your own "facts" and "truth" and go with it. Based on earlier examples in this thread, I wish you luck.
You are award that there are many scholars that have stated that the earth was flat. You think I made this up? Based on your wrong greek scholar name...but I am aware that you didn't look it up like me. We both mentioned greek came up first. Are you claiming that since the greeksdiscovery in the BC, the rest of the world got emails about this discovery? Most European at this time were wearing furs and can't even build ships....
KMFDM
2015/02/19 15:22:18
Subject: Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun
david choe wrote: You are award that there are many scholars that have stated that the earth was flat.
Name one.
We both mentioned greek came up first.
Given that the Romans, Muslims, and Western Europeans all had massive hard ons for the Greek Philosophers, and the wide prominence of the work of Ptolemy (and Pliny) thanks to Hellenization, someone would have to try really hard to be educated in late Medieval Europe and not learn that the Greeks had calculated the Earth's circumference and believed it to be round. Thomas Aquinas, the father of Rationalism, calculated the Earth's circumference himself. The standard astronomical text book of the earliest Western Universities, takes it for granted that students knew the Earth was round.
The entire idea that Medieval Europeans thought the earth was flat is historical nonsense. It was popularized in the 19th century by scholars much less interested in history and much more interested in grinding an axe with the Catholic Church and created the myth out of whole cloth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/19 15:24:40
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese discovered America before Columbus, the Vikings did.
There's pretty much only one guy who claims this, and Gavin Menzies is a complete quack (not to mention more than a little crazy). Never before have I read a text where someone makes a claim and then proceeds to spend the entire book talking about his personal life travels while listing off nonsensical information about one of China's best Naval innovators and explorers. Ancient Aliens guy was better at producing evidence and;
He has way cooler hair.
His second book (that China sparked the Renaissance by sending a fleet to Italy) is even crazier.
When you see his references, quite a few people have claimed it.
Please no ancient aliens stuff. Oh hell no...not Olmec. If anything....I might consider that the Olmec might be related with Africans because of the faces looked African. But then again...I don't think African made any statues heads like Olmec.
I did mentioned to read it with a grain of salt...I read it during breakfast and I didn't buy it, but made me think.
If the South Americans natives came from the migration from the asian by the ice age theory of the ice bridge around Alaska and Siberia or they came by boat from the pacific or from Africa crossing Atlantic?
I mean, The eastern islander were so isolated and they got there by boats.
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