Saudi cleric says Earth doesn’t revolve around sun

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**jreilly89**

Psienesis wrote:
There's still a lot of Americans who claim the Moon landing never happened. It's not just a Middle East thing.

Religious extremism often has an anti-science/anti-intellectual angle to it... Islam isn't alone in that, we have plenty of Christian fundamentalists here in the US making similar statements, apparently now including a group who believes that dinosaurs were never real.

People also claim the Holocaust was a hoax, that doesn't make them any less stupid.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Oh, did we step back into the Medieval Ages? Thank God I'm white

There was a great standup bit about this - I think Louis CK - about how one of the benefits of being white - white privilege, as it were; is free access to enjoying time travel, whereas a black guy is going to be like "um.... No, nothing really before 1970 or so, thanks."

"Oh, we're definitely going to get our come uppance, but for now, wheeee!!"

**Frazzled**

Fair point.

**nels1031**

david choe wrote:

You can't be that blind and fall for this smear of the Saudi or Islam right? This is a propaganda to smear them.

This was reported initially on Al Arabiya, a Saudi owned English/Arabic news site.

**david choe**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
david choe wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
david choe wrote:
Smacks wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
There is some distinctly anti-science beliefs from the Middle East, not based on evidence but apparently rooted in defiance of anything western.
It is not just the Middle East. I have read that the leader of Boko Haram in Africa also claims The Earth is flat, largely in defiance of western teachings. What I find most disturbing about this stuff is that, unlike evolution which happens very slowly, the motion of the stars an planets is something you can observe yourself. The observations of scientists can be empirically tested with little more than a sextant and some determination. This is made super easy with the assistance of stargazing apps. The fact that smart phones with sat-nav even exists should be evidence enough that the person who put the satellites there knows their gak.

I'm reminded of the (apocryphal) anecdote about Aristotle. His statement that flies have four legs was repeated in natural history texts for more than a thousand years, despite the fact that a little counting would have proven otherwise. Why take people's word when you can just check yourself?

Counties in the east were a great source of science thousands of years ago, they had mathematicians, scientists snd scholars. But there's no pride in any of these values because it doesn't suit the interests of clerics, religious leaders and those in power. That's why they don't believe in education or free expression and thought.
I think that door swings both ways. Are people made ignorant by the power of religious leaders, or are religious leaders made powerful by people's ignorance. I remember as a child (about 11) plotting the positions of nearby stars onto a map, with nothing but a protractor and a book by Patrick Moore that listed their declination and hour angle. Granted, I did have a book, but it wasn't part of my education, and certainly not something my parents were interested in, I just wanted to know for myself. When I look back at ancient people, I'm constantly in awe of what they were able to achieve with so little. Even the simple neolithic people that built Stonehenge had the mental capacity to make calenders and accurately predict the solstice. When I look at modern people I'm constantly amazed by how dumb they are. Most people I meet, even in the UK, don't know anything, and they're not interested in knowing anything. They stare all day at TVs, phones and computers, and it never occurs to them to find out how those things work, even though the answer is literally a click away. They don't know the words for trees or flowers, or understand why spiders aren't insects. When I moved house I had to endure a mandatory lecture by the estate agent about how mould spreads because it is a "kind of bacteria". I corrected him that mould is caused by fungus, but my words were just met with a dumb expression and went straight over his head. The real tragedy is not that people are stupid, but that not-stupid people can't get a safer distance away from them all.

The Chinese discover the earth was round before the west by a few 100s years.

Source on that? Seeing as Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, already knowing that the earth was round, we're talking so far back in time that records start becoming rather spotty.

Let's don't make this a race. If Columbus people still think that you can fall off the earth, then the discovery is not public knowledge.

You'd have a point if people actually thought that at the time. Their objection to Columbus's journey was that they felt he was underestimating the circumference of the Earth, based on, among other things, Eratosthenes's work, and they were RIGHT. So yeah, tell us all about dismissing people's achievements.

I wasing making a claim who was first. However, the "west" in this context is based on 1500s discovery.

Also, I think there were other Greeks before Eratosthenes by a few 100s years. I would not say to you that you are "dismissing people's achievement" just to jab at your ego.

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nels1031 wrote:
david choe wrote:

You can't be that blind and fall for this smear of the Saudi or Islam right? This is a propaganda to smear them.

This was reported initially on Al Arabiya, a Saudi owned English/Arabic news site.

Yeah...it was not a big deal. That is my point. Like my comparison of CNN reporting Duck Dynasty. People will pull any article to use as a propaganda tool for their agenda.

Some of you on this thread seems to fall for the propaganda or use it to push your agenda is my point.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Agenda. Scary word of scariness.

**Frazzled**

Some of you on this thread seems to fall for the propaganda or use it to push your agenda is my point.

This from the guy who doesn't think Duck Dynasty is an accurate portrayal of American life, and that Texans don't have oil wells in the back yards? Sorry but all your opinions are suspect now. Next you'll be making up asinine statements like cat people got a reason to live and the pending Zombie apocalypse is not a reason to get all giddy and excited like the night before Christmas.

**loki old fart**

Hey lads lighten up, It's been a fun thread so far.

**Frazzled**

loki old fart wrote:
Hey lads lighten up, It's been a fun thread so far.

This guy is clearly a cat lover. I have it on good information that cat lovers suspect the earth really is flat.

**squidhills**

Frazzled wrote:
loki old fart wrote:
Hey lads lighten up, It's been a fun thread so far.

This guy is clearly a cat lover. I have it on good information that cat lovers suspect the earth really is flat.

That's just racist. We don't think it's flat, we think it's donut shaped.

**david choe**

Frazzled wrote:
loki old fart wrote:
Hey lads lighten up, It's been a fun thread so far.

This guy is clearly a cat lover. I have it on good information that cat lovers suspect the earth really is flat.

Well....my daddy is can beat up your daddy.

**Co'tor Shas**

Frazzled wrote:
Actually the British helped them get there. Has no one watched Lawrence of Arabia in the last 50 years?

Kind of late, but that is an amazing movie.

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Frazzled wrote:
loki old fart wrote:
Hey lads lighten up, It's been a fun thread so far.

This guy is clearly a cat lover. I have it on good information that cat lovers suspect the earth really is flat.

I like cats and dogs, does that mean I think the earth is hollow?

**Frazzled**

david choe wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
loki old fart wrote:
Hey lads lighten up, It's been a fun thread so far.

This guy is clearly a cat lover. I have it on good information that cat lovers suspect the earth really is flat.

Well....my daddy is can beat up your daddy.

Pftt. My wiener dogs can eat your daddy.

Besides we all know the earth isn't flat or round. Its trapezoid!

**loki old fart**

Well my cats think the world is shaped like a tin of pilchards.
My dog doesn't think, because he's got a ball, And it needs throwing.

**Frazzled**

loki old fart wrote:
Well my cats think the world is shaped like a tin of pilchards.
My dog doesn't think, because he's got a ball, And it needs throwing.

your dog is wise. In the words of TBone Greatest of all Dogs:

**loki old fart**

I think I know why so many wargamers have cats. They just go to sleep on your lap, and get covered in paint.
Dogs expect you to put your brushes down, and throw the ball.

**david choe**

Back to topic.

The funny part... This cleric actually use this example to proof that the earth is not round...
If we are in air and just stays still, then China should rotate to us.

I thought of something like this when I was a little kid...
When I jump up...the earth rotate a bit..so when I landed...I was a bit forward. This theory explain why I jumped forward or backward, in reality (I thought) I was just jumping straight up!

**Howard A Treesong**

All the cleric is demonstrating is a total lack of understanding as to what inertia is. By his logic, if you were on an aeroplane and tried to jump on the spot, you'd go plummeting towards the back wall of the aircraft at 500mph.

**Haight**

Frazzled wrote:
Actually the British helped them get there. Has no one watched Lawrence of Arabia in the last 50 years?

Yeah, i'm often amazed at how people that speak of current events in the middle east can't be bothered to investigate the social and political fallout of post world war I and its ramifications on the region.

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Frazzled wrote:
loki old fart wrote:
Hey lads lighten up, It's been a fun thread so far.

This guy is clearly a cat lover. I have it on good information that cat lovers suspect the earth really is flat.

Hey i'm a cat lover. And we don't suspect it's flat. We, just like our cats, can't be bothered to explain it to all the lesser beings around us. // cat mode off.

(fair being fair i'm a dog lover too. I have a black lab foxhound that is the best fething dog ever. My rescue cat is also aces.

).

**sebster**

Frazzled wrote:
Actually the British helped them get there. Has no one watched Lawrence of Arabia in the last 50 years?

True, it's very interesting how much late 19th and early 20th century meddling by the British gets dumped on the US.

That said, at least in this case the British have a reasonable defence that nobody saw the rise of Saudi Arabia happening. The place was one of the poorest countries in the world, if it is controlled by a bunch of religious fanatics, well that's no biggie. Then they found oil.

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AnomanderRake wrote:
Eratosthenes figured out that the Earth was round and measured its circumference to within fifteen percent of the actual value in 240 BC.

Western Europe and the US do love their "We did everything before all the unenlightened savages everywhere else in the world!" myths, don't they?

Of course, the irony here is that this little side conversation was kicked off by someone dubiously trying to claim the Chinese did something before anyone else. ie "we did everything before all the unenlightened savages" is not a uniquely Western thing.

**david choe**

The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.

**sebster**

david choe wrote:
The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.

Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.

**jreilly89**

sebster wrote:
david choe wrote:
The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.

Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.

Not to mention things invented by the Greeks and Roman, hell, even the Babylonians, way before China. Science is about sharing, not about who discovered what first.

**david choe**

sebster wrote:
david choe wrote:
The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.

Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.

But we are not speaking in Chinese here and the subject and context is so full of occidental bias that somebody had to bring the balancing scale that was very skewed and correct it with facts. You seems like a level headed guy, then there is no point at trying to correct something that is not needed to be corrected. I agree but again, who is doing the standing up for the truth here? Just me. The unpopular voice of DakkaDakka.

In short it went like this.
West did everything and middle east hate it.
I pointed they didn't and east did this and I mentioned that the West has too many occidental bias and the ME do not hate.. just this stupid Cleric.
Then You - The east is just as bad at clamming credits.
OK, then.

**LordofHats**

david choe wrote:
But we are not speaking in Chinese here and the subject and context is so full of occidental bias that somebody had to bring the balancing scale that was very skewed and correct it with facts. You seems like a level headed guy, then there is no point at trying to correct something that is not needed to be corrected. I agree but again, who is doing the standing up for the truth here? Just me. The unpopular voice of DakkaDakka.

Really running with that victim complex aren't you

**david choe**

jreilly89 wrote:
sebster wrote:
david choe wrote:
The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.

Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.

Not to mention things invented by the Greeks and Roman, hell, even the Babylonians, way before China. Science is about sharing, not about who discovered what first.

Tell that to the occidentals, the rest of the world is quite humble in this aspect.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:
david choe wrote:
But we are not speaking in Chinese here and the subject and context is so full of occidental bias that somebody had to bring the balancing scale that was very skewed and correct it with facts. You seems like a level headed guy, then there is no point at trying to correct something that is not needed to be corrected. I agree but again, who is doing the standing up for the truth here? Just me. The unpopular voice of DakkaDakka.

Really running with that victim complex aren't you

How about you never reply to me and leave it at that. Just put me on ignore, I do not respect your POV in any post and most of the time... well it is really a waste of time to read your post.

**Bullockist**

jreilly89 wrote:
sebster wrote:
david choe wrote:
The Chinese invented too may stuff to listed here, everybody every day use something invented by the Chinese. Of course, the dirty occidentals would not give the east credits.

Yes, the Chinese invented loads of stuff, and achieved lots of other things first on top of that. But then on top of there's also a whole bunch of stuff the Chinese claim they did first that's total bs. Because, just like the West, China is at least as interested in pleasing their own nationalism as they are in actual history.

Not to mention things invented by the Greeks and Roman, hell, even the Babylonians, way before China. Science is about sharing, not about who discovered what first.

why has no one mentioned the Egyptians, or the Olmecs, or even the Phonecians who were incredible sailors and traders whilst most of the world was still finding out where it's arse was?

Damn occidental bias i tell you.

Davids right on one thing though, the amount of eastern discoveries claimed by Europeans circa and after the reformation is quite honestly astounding.It's like the Éuropeans discovered the eastern libraries or something.

Lordofhats does some good posts david, don't be so quick to judge, give him a bit of time he'll grow on you like fungas.

**daedalus**

Bullockist wrote:

Lordofhats does some good posts david, don't be so quick to judge, give him a bit of time he'll grow on you like fungas.

Hehe, "fun gas".

**dogma**

david choe wrote:

Tell that to the occidentals, the rest of the world is quite humble in this aspect.

The vast majority of people in the world don't care who invented X first. It is a leisure argument.

**Bran Dawri**

I'm no historian, but isn't it possible that some of those discoveries made first by the Chines were in also made by Europeans independently at some later point in time?
Not talking about the obvious Greek/Babylonian/Egyptian civilizations' discoveries here, but the later ones like the printing press and things.)

**TseGuevara**

I will just leave this here

Saudi Arabia opens top-notch laser lab