Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

david choe wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

david choe wrote:
My theory is that majority consider it was flat because how can it be round ... they don't know about gravity. Some "rogue" scientist or sailor might think that it was all connected and round... but majority no way. Most can't even read or right and are superstitious as hell... how can they understand an idea such as round earth like an orange and we are on it.

You can either accept that pretty much every major scholar of the day accepted that the Earth was round, as evidenced by the collected writings we still have access to, or you can make up your own "facts" and "truth" and go with it. Based on earlier examples in this thread, I wish you luck.

You are award that there are many scholars that have stated that the earth was flat. You think I made this up? Based on your wrong greek scholar name...but I am aware that you didn't look it up like me. We both mentioned greek came up first. Are you claiming that since the greeksdiscovery in the BC, the rest of the world got emails about this discovery? Most European at this time were wearing furs and can't even build ships....

I mentioned Eratosthenes, pointed out that he calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, and (crucially) THAT HE ALREADY KNEW THE EARTH WAS ROUND. Seriously, I cannot communicate with you if you don't read what I am actually writing. I was using the fact that Eratosthenes knew that the Earth was round in 240 BC to back up my statement that the time periods we are discussing is further back than that, making any records rather spotty at best. I've not used "the wrong Greek", because I never claimed he was the first to claim the Earth was round.

Seriously, it's all right there in my posts. There's no need to go all strawman on me.

Also, last time I checked, Greece was part of Europe.

For how much longer they'll be a part of the Euro and the Union is another matter though...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

david choe wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

david choe wrote:
My theory is that majority consider it was flat because how can it be round ... they don't know about gravity. Some "rogue" scientist or sailor might think that it was all connected and round... but majority no way. Most can't even read or right and are superstitious as hell... how can they understand an idea such as round earth like an orange and we are on it.

You can either accept that pretty much every major scholar of the day accepted that the Earth was round, as evidenced by the collected writings we still have access to, or you can make up your own "facts" and "truth" and go with it. Based on earlier examples in this thread, I wish you luck.

You are award that there are many scholars that have stated that the earth was flat. You think I made this up? Based on your wrong greek scholar name...but I am aware that you didn't look it up like me. We both mentioned greek came up first. Are you claiming that since the greeksdiscovery in the BC, the rest of the world got emails about this discovery? Most European at this time were wearing furs and can't even build ships....

I mentioned Eratosthenes, pointed out that he calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240 BC, and (crucially) THAT HE ALREADY KNEW THE EARTH WAS ROUND. Seriously, I cannot communicate with you if you don't read what I am actually writing. I was using the fact that Eratosthenes knew that the Earth was round in 240 BC to back up my statement that the time periods we are discussing is further back than that, making any records rather spotty at best. I've not used "the wrong Greek", because I never claimed he was the first to claim the Earth was round.

Seriously, it's all right there in my posts. There's no need to go all strawman on me.

Well then, don't nit pick my respond too. I did mentioned Greek so what is the problem here? Holy cow, I told all of you that Columbus was not the first and quote me here...

I said it was Chinese, the Quran, and Greeks discover the round earth before Columbus. As I already mentioned before that I stand corrected about Chinese because I got confuse with India. But the point was made that many discover before Columbus.

Here is a wikki article of Flat Earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

You can see that this is not a myth... it list so many many civilization who view the earth was flat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Also, last time I checked, Greece was part of Europe.

For how much longer they'll be a part of the Euro and the Union is another matter though...

???

Last I check Saudi Arabia is in Asia... so what?

Well Western Europe did forget the idea in the early middle ages. There are texts from that period that seem to support the flat earth theory, and others that just seem to assume it. But by the late Middle Ages, the Renaissance was kicking up and Europeans were reacquianting themselves with the work of the Greeks as well as getting into contact with the Muslim world (and the Islamic Golden Age, really loved its astronomy).

The idea that anyone by the time of Columbus believed the Earth was flat is ahistorical. It was taken for granted by then that the Earth was round. Europe loved reading Pliny, and his second volume contains Ptolemy's work on the solar system, including a round earth. Even if someone started reading him and didn't finish, they had to have read that part. It's the very first part of his encyclopedia.

Eastern Europe on the other hand under the Byzantine Empire never forgot.

Nobody even mentioned Columbus until you tried to use him as an example of how backwards us "dirty Occidentals" were. While we 're on the subject, China didn't get the knowledge until the 1600s, and then from Jesuit missionaries (there'd not be much of a "Middle Kingdom" otherwise, would it?). The only one with a blatantly obvious bias in this thread, despite protestations to the contrary, is you .

It can even be argued that great astronomers of India who dealt with the subject built on the teachings of Pythagoras and Aristotle, brought there by Alexander the Great.

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.

This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Nobody even mentioned Columbus until you tried to use him as an example of how backwards us "dirty Occidentals" were. While we 're on the subject, China didn't get the knowledge until the 1600s, and then from Jesuit missionaries (there'd not be much of a "Middle Kingdom" otherwise, would it?). The only one with a blatantly obvious bias in this thread, despite protestations to the contrary, is you .

It can even be argued that great astronomers of India who dealt with the subject built on the teachings of Pythagoras and Aristotle, brought there by Alexander the Great.

LOL.... yeah you really do read my post.

I rest my case with you buddy. Please just stop. You are debating with yourself and putting my name as the antagonist.

david choe wrote:


Well then, don't nit pick my respond too. I did mentioned Greek so what is the problem here? Holy cow, I told all of you that Columbus was not the first and quote me here...

I said it was Chinese, the Quran, and Greeks discover the round earth before Columbus. As I already mentioned before that I stand corrected about Chinese because I got confuse with India. But the point was made that many discover before Columbus.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Also, last time I checked, Greece was part of Europe.

For how much longer they'll be a part of the Euro and the Union is another matter though...

???

Last I check Saudi Arabia is in Asia... so what?

That the ancient Greeks were an occidental civilization. I also misread one of your previous posts, and thought you were claiming that in the days of ancient Greece Europeans were fur-clad savages. I was mistaken. Not important.

Also, Columbus never set out to prove that the earth was round, or to discover new land. That happened by accident. He set out to find a shorter route to India so merchants could stop having to make the perilous journey around Africa or the even more dangerous land route. Everybody knows that it's likely a bunch of other people discovered the Americas before him (including, but not limited to the Vikings, another occidental civilization).
But AFAIK (I'm no historian), Chinese ships of the time weren't very well-designed for journeys on deep seas, but were made for shallower waters to hug the coasts. I could be wrong.

david choe wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
And I'm sure the Saudi clergy's statements on astrophysics have a dramatic and damaging effect on your daily life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

david choe wrote:
Let's don't make this a race. If Columbus people still think that you can fall off the earth, then the discovery is not public knowledge.

I do not know who was the first who discover the round earth theory.

All I know is that
Quran stated that the earth was round, 1,000 years before Columbus
The Chinese thought it was round as well, before 1500s.... I don't remember when.
I think Ancient Greek also had a round earth theory.


My point was that the west likes to give itself credits and dismiss other cultures that discover the same thing before them.

Eratosthenes figured out that the Earth was round and measured its circumference to within fifteen percent of the actual value in 240 BC.

Western Europe and the US do love their "We did everything before all the unenlightened savages everywhere else in the world!" myths, don't they?

You can't be that blind and fall for this smear of the Saudi or Islam right? This is a propaganda to smear them. If the Quran already stated the round earth theory, then this idiot cleric is wrong and "solo" in this. Yet, this thread is full of Middle East rejecting facts discovered by the west. You ...turning this into a contest...lol

Either you actually fall for this propaganda or are using this as a propaganda for your ethnocentric ideology. I just see this as what it really is.... When the world saw that Duck dynasty show....we know that the show do not represent usa.

Wait, what?

 Eilif wrote:
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.

This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.

OK, right here guys... this is a perfect example of what I've been trying to tell you. This is a Perfect example of the Occidental propaganda victim or a propaganda pusher.

This nut cleric is not supported by majority of Saudi Arabia. He was a rare case in Saudi Arabia. He made news in Saudi Arabia because of his idiocy just like if some idiot preacher in USA were to make this kind of statement... he would be on CNN. Muslim majority are not idiots like this fool. Why is the West picking up on this news? Because it smear Islam and Saudi Arabia. It painted a negative narrative that the West enjoy mocking. This news clip is the poster boy for anti Islam and Saudi Arabia science.

This is like the case of where CNN news report about Duck Dynasty or Westboro Baptist Church and the rest of the world assume that Americans are as idiots as these fools.

If you must throw insults... please direct at this cleric..

 LordofHats wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
When you see his references, quite a few people have claimed it.

No. I've seen this before. Mr. Koufman is simply repeating the arguments of Betty Meggers, a woman who used her position at the Smithsonian in 1974 and 75 to push this theory. Only problem is all her evidence for a Olmec-Shang contact is actually 800-1000 years older than both civilizations.

Do you have a link for this?

You are aware that both had civilizations that dated long before europeans found them right? The chinese had a written language and history that proves the "god flooding the earth" was a hoax. Yet this doesn't stop many americans from claiming the earth is 6000 years old and there definitely was a global flood.

Like the flat earth at the time, everyone else knew it, but that didn't stop the europeans from denying it, until it was proven to them and that guy got the credit for it.

I'd assume the same will go for evolution, whoever can finally prove it to those that deny it, will get credit for discovering it. Then given enough time you'll have christians saying that christians believed in evolution since Darwin brought it up.

Is it plausible that europeans thought the earth was flat, absolutely, even today 1 out of 4 american christians either don't know the earth goes around the sun or deny it. So I highly doubt the flat earth was just a myth created by anyone to smear the church. It's highly likely the majority of them believed it. Scholars may have known otherwise, but since when does that influence the entire population. Biology takes for granted evolution is a real and provable fact, yet look at the large number of people who deny it.

Then we have the lost book of enoch, which is all about how flat the earth was, I know it's not canon now, but they did find parts of it with the dead sea scrolls.

The Book of Enoch was extant centuries before the birth of Christ and yet is considered by many to be more Christian in its theology than Jewish. It was considered scripture by many early Christians. The earliest literature of the so-called “Church Fathers” is filled with references to this mysterious book. The early second century “Epistle of Barnabus” makes much use of the Book of Enoch. Second and Third Century “Church Fathers” like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch “Holy Scripture”. The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official canon. It was widely known and read the first three centuries after Christ.

If you want to read it:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/enoch/1enoch01-60.htm

Chapter 18
1I then surveyed the receptacles of all the winds, perceiving that they contributed to adorn the whole creation, and to preserve the foundation of the earth.
2I surveyed the stone which supports the corners of the earth.
3I also beheld the four winds, which bear up the earth, and the firmament of heaven.
4And I beheld the winds occupying the exalted sky.
5Arising in the midst of heaven and of earth, and constituting the pillars of heaven.
6I saw the winds which turn the sky, which cause the orb of the sun and of all the stars to set; and over the earth I saw the winds which support the clouds.

Apparently when they got around to rewriting the bible and deciding canon, This was getting to much, even for them. but I'd bet they got rid of Enoch because he never died, he walked with god to heaven, which took away from Jesus and his 3 day parlor trick

Bran Dawri wrote:

But AFAIK (I'm no historian), Chinese ships of the time weren't very well-designed for journeys on deep seas, but were made for shallower waters to hug the coasts. I could be wrong.

You would be correct as far as anyone knows. The first (proven) ship we know of that could traverse the oceans was the Viking long ship, which led to the later European Cog, Carrack, and Caravel. But the Long ship could not cross straight across the Atlantic and needed to island hop to get to North America.

Given the amount of circumstantial evidence to back Polynesian and South American contact, we would have to accept something along the same lines was developed by the Polynesians if we wanted to support that idea. While the Kon-Tiki was kind of a rough experiment, it does at least give credence that such voyages were possible, and like the Viking long ship, something like the Kon-Tiki could island hop its way across the Pacific.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Do you have a link for this?

She's listed in the references of the paper itself. She's pretty prolific in the field of Archeology. She's also (sort of) the grandma of Environmental History.

The chinese had a written language and history that proves the "god flooding the earth" was a hoax. Yet this doesn't stop many americans from claiming the earth is 6000 years old and there definitely was a global flood.

I don't understand what this or the rest of your post has to do with anything...

but I'd bet they got rid of Enoch because he never died, he walked with god to heaven, which took away from Jesus and his 3 day parlor trick

Huh? Two people in the canon Bible as described outright as going straight to heaven. Jesus, and the Prophet Elijah*. So, I'm not sure why they would cut Enoch out for that. And that's just assuming they knew about Enoch. Enoch as far as anyone can tell was unknown to early Christians. Given the popularity of Eschatology in the early church and the quickly growing love interest many clerics had with Daniel and Revelation, it seems odd that none of them ever seem to talk about Enoch (the second half of which is all Eschatology). The earliest Christians had obviously read it because its quoted in Jude. But after the 3rd century, people just stop talking about it. Given the vast number of Christian writing in the early church, it's most likely that Enoch simply got drowned out rather than cast out.

*Elijah literally got to ride a chariot on the stairway to heaven

david choe wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.

This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.

OK, right here guys... this is a perfect example of what I've been trying to tell you. This is a Perfect example of the Occidental propaganda victim or a propaganda pusher.

This nut cleric is not supported by majority of Saudi Arabia. He was a rare case in Saudi Arabia. He made news in Saudi Arabia because of his idiocy just like if some idiot preacher in USA were to make this kind of statement... he would be on CNN. Muslim majority are not idiots like this fool. Why is the West picking up on this news? Because it smear Islam and Saudi Arabia. It painted a negative narrative that the West enjoy mocking. This news clip is the poster boy for anti Islam and Saudi Arabia science.

This is like the case of where CNN news report about Duck Dynasty or West Bureau Baptist Church and the rest of the world assume that Americans are as idiots as these fools.

If you must throw insults... please direct at this cleric..

I don't recall attacking Islam in my post (In fact I deliberately avoided doing so), but is anything I said in my post about Saudi Arabia untrue? My statements may feel insulting, but they do have the advantage of being true.

My point is simply that a country as backwards as Saudi Arabia is fertile ground for all manner of ridiculousness. I don't deny that we in the west have more than our share of nutjobs, but our female citizens are allowed to choose whether or not to drive and walk uncovered.

 Eilif wrote:

david choe wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.

This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.

OK, right here guys... this is a perfect example of what I've been trying to tell you. This is a Perfect example of the Occidental propaganda victim or a propaganda pusher.

This nut cleric is not supported by majority of Saudi Arabia. He was a rare case in Saudi Arabia. He made news in Saudi Arabia because of his idiocy just like if some idiot preacher in USA were to make this kind of statement... he would be on CNN. Muslim majority are not idiots like this fool. Why is the West picking up on this news? Because it smear Islam and Saudi Arabia. It painted a negative narrative that the West enjoy mocking. This news clip is the poster boy for anti Islam and Saudi Arabia science.

This is like the case of where CNN news report about Duck Dynasty or West Bureau Baptist Church and the rest of the world assume that Americans are as idiots as these fools.

If you must throw insults... please direct at this cleric..

I don't recall attacking Islam in my post (In fact I deliberately avoided doing so), but is anything I said in my post about Saudi Arabia untrue? My statements may feel insulting, but they do have the advantage of being true.

My point is simply that a country as backwards as Saudi Arabia is fertile ground for all manner of ridiculousness. I don't deny that we in the west have more than our share of nutjobs, but our female citizens are allowed to choose whether or not to drive and walk uncovered.

What you said in your post were not untrue but it was unnecessary related to the context of the cleric. It smeared Saudi Arabia and create the occidental propaganda that degrade Saudi Arabia.

It would be if I would equated the Duck Dynasty news to all the negative narrative of America such as mass shooting, drugs, and gangs. It would be out of context and unfair and blaming all the problems in America created Duck Dynasty.

Which is exactly what you did.

david choe wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.

This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.

OK, right here guys... this is a perfect example of what I've been trying to tell you. This is a Perfect example of the Occidental propaganda victim or a propaganda pusher.

Well, it is true that Saudi Arabia is an non-democratic monarchy with an egregious human right record. Is it not?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

david choe wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.

This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.

OK, right here guys... this is a perfect example of what I've been trying to tell you. This is a Perfect example of the Occidental propaganda victim or a propaganda pusher.

Well, it is true that Saudi Arabia is an non-democratic monarchy with an egregious human right record. Is it not?

Why are you asking me this? Why do I have to defend Saudi Arabia? The context of those statement has nothing to do with the Cleric.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

david choe wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is anyone really surprised? This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. One of the worlds last fascist states, with a command economy, no consistent rule of law, and to top it off an egregious human rights record that includes no religious freedom and systemic oppression of women.

This is not the place where religious figures are likely to be constrained by logic or reality.

OK, right here guys... this is a perfect example of what I've been trying to tell you. This is a Perfect example of the Occidental propaganda victim or a propaganda pusher.

Well, it is true that Saudi Arabia is an non-democratic monarchy with an egregious human right record. Is it not?

Hey! Those are just rumors. No one ever lived to tell the tale

david choe wrote:

I don't recall attacking Islam in my post (In fact I deliberately avoided doing so), but is anything I said in my post about Saudi Arabia untrue? My statements may feel insulting, but they do have the advantage of being true.

My point is simply that a country as backwards as Saudi Arabia is fertile ground for all manner of ridiculousness. I don't deny that we in the west have more than our share of nutjobs, but our female citizens are allowed to choose whether or not to drive and walk uncovered.

What you said in your post were not untrue but it was unnecessary related to the context of the cleric. It smeared Saudi Arabia and create the occidental propaganda that degrade Saudi Arabia.

It would be if I would equated the Duck Dynasty news to all the negative narrative of America such as mass shooting, drugs, and gangs. It would be out of context and unfair and blaming all the problems in America created Duck Dynasty.

Which is exactly what you did.

You may not like the context, but the truth doesn't have to be convenient. It's not "smear" or "propaganda" if it's objective truth backed up by fact. If Saudi Arabia is being "degrade"-ed by the truth, then it has only it's own self to blame.

Let's step past the the "occidental propaganda", "duck Dynasty', "unnecessary-related-to-context", etc doublespeak and get right to the point. Just to be clear…

Are you defending the fascism, oppression of women, lack of rule of law, totalitarianism and lack of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia?

…or...

Are you just annoyed to hear criticism of Saudi Arabia in a place you didn't expect?

 Eilif wrote:

david choe wrote:

I don't recall attacking Islam in my post (In fact I deliberately avoided doing so), but is anything I said in my post about Saudi Arabia untrue? My statements may feel insulting, but they do have the advantage of being true.

My point is simply that a country as backwards as Saudi Arabia is fertile ground for all manner of ridiculousness. I don't deny that we in the west have more than our share of nutjobs, but our female citizens are allowed to choose whether or not to drive and walk uncovered.

What you said in your post were not untrue but it was unnecessary related to the context of the cleric. It smeared Saudi Arabia and create the occidental propaganda that degrade Saudi Arabia.

It would be if I would equated the Duck Dynasty news to all the negative narrative of America such as mass shooting, drugs, and gangs. It would be out of context and unfair and blaming all the problems in America created Duck Dynasty.

Which is exactly what you did.

You may not like the context, but the truth doesn't have to be convenient.

Let's step past the the "occidental propaganda", "duck Dynasty', "unnecessary-related-to-context", etc doublespeak and get right to the point. Just to be clear…

Are you defending the fascism, oppression of women, lack of rule of law, totalitarianism and lack of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia?

…or...

Are you just annoyed to hear criticism of Saudi Arabia in a place you didn't expect?

I'm annoyed to hear criticism of saudi arabia in a place i didn't expect.

Because...

we are talking about a stupid cleric and discovery of science in the past.

david choe wrote:

I'm annoyed to hear criticism of saudi arabia in a place i didn't expect.

Because...

we are talking about a stupid cleric and discovery of science in the past.

In that case you'll just have to accept reading something you didn't expect.

The internet isn't ruled by Roberts Rules of Order and the dysfunction of Saudi society is certainly fair game for tangential discussion in a conversation related to a Saudi cleric.

 Eilif wrote:

david choe wrote:

I'm annoyed to hear criticism of saudi arabia in a place i didn't expect.

Because...

we are talking about a stupid cleric and discovery of science in the past.

In that case you'll just have to accept reading something you didn't expect.

The internet isn't ruled by Roberts Rules of Order and the dysfunction of Saudi society is certainly fair game for tangential discussion in a conversation related to a Saudi cleric.

Boy... I hate the King of Thailand and the current coup. I also hate the Yakuza in Japan. I also hate crimes in general.. Rapist and child molester and racist should be in my hate buckets too. Ugly Americans as in American tourist who act stupid and ethnocentric and not as in not attractive Americans. Mainland Chinese people who do not have travel experiences and do stupid things on the plane. I can go on.. but you get the idea.

We all can have a decent protocol of behaviors or we all can go anarchy....

I just didn't feel like hearing everybody bitching about the Saudis and turn this into a Saudi hate thread. I don't agree with many of their customs too.. but do you care about my feelings toward them? Do you need me to make you feel more reassure that you are not the only one who dislike Saudi Arabia's cultures? I really hate and annoyed having to listen to other people's emotional feeling about topics that has nothing to do with the discussion. Kind of like Grand Standing I guess.

I like you Choe, even if I disagree.

david choe wrote:

In that case you'll just have to accept reading something you didn't expect.

The internet isn't ruled by Roberts Rules of Order and the dysfunction of Saudi society is certainly fair game for tangential discussion in a conversation related to a Saudi cleric.

Boy... I hate the King of Thailand and the current coup. I also hate the Yakuza in Japan. I also hate crimes in general.. Rapist and child molester and racist should be in my hate buckets too. Ugly Americans as in American tourist who act stupid and ethnocentric and not as in not attractive Americans. Mainland Chinese people who do not have travel experiences and do stupid things on the plane. I can go on.. but you get the idea.

We all can have a decent protocol of behaviors or we all can go anarchy....

If you think that Thailand, Yakuza, ugly Americans, tourists and Chinese people are as related (or unrelated as the case may be) to an article about a Saudi cleric as Saudi society, then that's your business.

But you'd be wrong. The later is context, and an acceptable tangent. The former are drastically more unrelated.

It has already been pointed out that official RSAF documents refer to the common belief here (KSA) that the earth is flat.

david choe wrote:
Why do I have to defend Saudi Arabia?

Because you are annoyed by terrible anti-Saudi Arabia propaganda. Fight it by showing how Saudi Arabia is actually a so cool country. While I eat pop-corn and watch.

 Eilif wrote:

david choe wrote:

In that case you'll just have to accept reading something you didn't expect.

The internet isn't ruled by Roberts Rules of Order and the dysfunction of Saudi society is certainly fair game for tangential discussion in a conversation related to a Saudi cleric.

Boy... I hate the King of Thailand and the current coup. I also hate the Yakuza in Japan. I also hate crimes in general.. Rapist and child molester and racist should be in my hate buckets too. Ugly Americans as in American tourist who act stupid and ethnocentric and not as in not attractive Americans. Mainland Chinese people who do not have travel experiences and do stupid things on the plane. I can go on.. but you get the idea.

We all can have a decent protocol of behaviors or we all can go anarchy....

If you think that Thailand, Yakuza, ugly Americans, tourists and Chinese people are as related (or unrelated as the case may be) to an article about a Saudi cleric as Saudi society, then that's your business.

But you'd be wrong. The later is context, and an acceptable tangent. The former are drastically more unrelated.

Indeed.

This thread has Saudi Arabia, the Yakuza, and tourists. Talk about thread win!

 Eilif wrote:

david choe wrote:

In that case you'll just have to accept reading something you didn't expect.

The internet isn't ruled by Roberts Rules of Order and the dysfunction of Saudi society is certainly fair game for tangential discussion in a conversation related to a Saudi cleric.

Boy... I hate the King of Thailand and the current coup. I also hate the Yakuza in Japan. I also hate crimes in general.. Rapist and child molester and racist should be in my hate buckets too. Ugly Americans as in American tourist who act stupid and ethnocentric and not as in not attractive Americans. Mainland Chinese people who do not have travel experiences and do stupid things on the plane. I can go on.. but you get the idea.

We all can have a decent protocol of behaviors or we all can go anarchy....

If you think that Thailand, Yakuza, ugly Americans, tourists and Chinese people are as related (or unrelated as the case may be) to an article about a Saudi cleric as Saudi society, then that's your business.

But you'd be wrong. The later is context, and an acceptable tangent. The former are drastically more unrelated.

I don't know how you can equated women's rights abuse to a cleric who think the earth is flat. This kind of misplacement of responsibility and blames is the start of ignorance and "occidental bias". You misplace the blame and information on a guy who Saudi don't give a crap and consider that Cleric a JOKE. You become ignorant. You became a victim of a Propaganda to smear Saudi people and their culture. IF THIS CLERIC WAS THE ROYAL SAUDIS FAMILY, then you can draw the connection or at least see how stupid the royals are. This was a isolated incident and a funny news the Saudis reported for themselves to laugh at.

This is like my example of drawing conclusion of Westboro baptist church to other problems in America. It is annoying as hell to see misplacement of responsibility and just ignorance statement and drawing false conclusion.

You want to be sheep and be lead by FOX NEWS propaganda team to push their agenda? This is the type of stuff that FOX NEWS loves to put on and convince Americans that Saudi Clerics and the Saudis people are stupid. I don't like Saudis culture, but I don't want to be sheep. I rather see Saudis as who they really are and consider this Cleric as nothing more that a pop funny news of the week.

david choe wrote:
I don't like Saudis culture, but I don't want to be sheep. I rather see Saudis as who they really are and consider this Cleric as nothing more that a pop funny news of the week.

All right what is Saudi Arabia and who are the Saudis?

Clarify for us where my assessment is wrong.

I'm not picking on the Saudi's because I harbor a particular dislike for them or because I've been brainwashed by Fox News (I get my media from NPR). I'm picking on the Saudi's because they're systematically oppressing women and minorities. Further, they're doing so with breathtaking scope and medieval methods. The Saudi's may think that this cleric is a joke, but they (and I include the Royals in this) seem to think the same thing about (or at least give the same amount of respect for) women's rights, the rule of law and the rights of religious minorities. Pointing this out does not mean that I'm engaging in "occidental bias" "Propoganda" or whatever doublespeak term you choose to apply. I'm not the victim here, and neither is the Saudi state. The folks living under the threat of flogging, stoning, beheading or unjust imprisonment are the victims.

Saudi policy and leadership does not get a pass or even a "don't-mention-it-here" because they may or may not agree with a cleric who thinks the earth is the center of the universe.

david choe wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

david choe wrote:

In that case you'll just have to accept reading something you didn't expect.

The internet isn't ruled by Roberts Rules of Order and the dysfunction of Saudi society is certainly fair game for tangential discussion in a conversation related to a Saudi cleric.

Boy... I hate the King of Thailand and the current coup. I also hate the Yakuza in Japan. I also hate crimes in general.. Rapist and child molester and racist should be in my hate buckets too. Ugly Americans as in American tourist who act stupid and ethnocentric and not as in not attractive Americans. Mainland Chinese people who do not have travel experiences and do stupid things on the plane. I can go on.. but you get the idea.

We all can have a decent protocol of behaviors or we all can go anarchy....

If you think that Thailand, Yakuza, ugly Americans, tourists and Chinese people are as related (or unrelated as the case may be) to an article about a Saudi cleric as Saudi society, then that's your business.

But you'd be wrong. The later is context, and an acceptable tangent. The former are drastically more unrelated.

I don't know how you can equated women's rights abuse to a cleric who think the earth is flat. This kind of misplacement of responsibility and blames is the start of ignorance and "occidental bias". You misplace the blame and information on a guy who Saudi don't give a crap and consider that Cleric a JOKE. You become ignorant. You became a victim of a Propaganda to smear Saudi people and their culture. IF THIS CLERIC WAS THE ROYAL SAUDIS FAMILY, then you can draw the connection or at least see how stupid the royals are. This was a isolated incident and a funny news the Saudis reported for themselves to laugh at.

This is like my example of drawing conclusion of Westboro baptist church to other problems in America. It is annoying as hell to see misplacement of responsibility and just ignorance statement and drawing false conclusion.

You want to be sheep and be lead by FOX NEWS propaganda team to push their agenda? This is the type of stuff that FOX NEWS loves to put on and convince Americans that Saudi Clerics and the Saudis people are stupid. I don't like Saudis culture, but I don't want to be sheep. I rather see Saudis as who they really are and consider this Cleric as nothing more that a pop funny news of the week.

1) You're the first to bring up Fox News. No one else has mentioned them and/or their agenda and to assume we are because we disagree with you is insulting.

2) I find it funny it's totally okay to bash "occidentals" but turn it on Saudi Arabia and it's a step too far.

3) No one's called Saudi Arabia or their people stupid. Some of them I imagine are actually quite nice and probably very smart. Everyone here has been having a reasonmable discussion and you seem to have some emotional problem as you keep bringing up this "occidental bias". Seriously, I don't know what axe you're grinding, but its gotta be pretty fething sharp by now.