I stopped playing wh40k around the time Daemon Hunters were released, and I found them odd already then. The Emperor made the Adeptus Astartes gene-seed from the Primarchs' DNA, and within these Primarchs must be genes for things that don't exist normally in the human genomes, like the mucranoid gland to the more out there omophagea. Of course, some I have no trouble with being made from human DNA already present, like the second hearts and lungs. Assuming the Primarchs had something akin to these organs, if not identical, but enough that the genes were the same, Adeptus Astartes would not be a problem. There are some phenotypic peculiarities, like Alpha Legionnaires being taller than most, whilst their Primarchs being small than the others, but that can easily be explained by a feed-back loop that prevents growth over a certain height in both, with the genes being inherent to the ossmodula. In a universe of space magic and armies of Captain Americas, suspension of disbelief on these matters is a rather simple thing.

So my assumptions are:
- The Emperor created or modified genes and organs so different from the original human (or other sources) ones that their original genes (if they were human) would be very difficult or impossible to recognise.
- The Primarchs had some variant of these organs and genes, whilst the Adeptus Astartes got modified versions derived from their respective Primarch's genome.
- The Emperor did not have these genes or organs originally, as the only source referring to his birth is Realm of Chaos from 1988, states he was born in the 8th century BC.

So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

I would assume that, much like the lore would suggest, the Emperor's physical form was chimeric and subject to his whim. I assume he played psychic surgeon with himself for millennia until he reasoned he had made his shell as strong as it could be.

Maybe it isn't actually his DNA? It could be that he just created a generic geneseed not derived from any of the primarchs and then gave it some of his essence, similar to how the Chaos Gods empower their daemons.

 Shidank wrote:


I would assume that, much like the lore would suggest, the Emperor's physical form was chimeric and subject to his whim. I assume he played psychic surgeon with himself for millennia until he reasoned he had made his shell as strong as it could be.

I doubt his genome was chimeric as he was born naturally, rather that he was just an extra powerful psyker (put bluntly) created by the Shamans. Could he alter his actual physical DNA, and not just his form? Seems very odd, and if he could do that, making Primarchs would've been a walk in the park it seems to me.

 Orblivion wrote:
Maybe it isn't actually his DNA? It could be that he just created a generic geneseed not derived from any of the primarchs and then gave it some of his essence, similar to how the Chaos Gods empower their daemons.

Well, the current assumption is the Grey Knights' got their gene-seed directly from the Emperor. That's what I'm addressing, because to me, that doesn't seem like they're playing by their own rules.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


I would assume that, much like the lore would suggest, the Emperor's physical form was chimeric and subject to his whim. I assume he played psychic surgeon with himself for millennia until he reasoned he had made his shell as strong as it could be.

I doubt his genome was chimeric as he was born naturally, rather that he was just an extra powerful psyker (put bluntly) created by the Shamans. Could he alter his actual physical DNA, and not just his form? Seems very odd, and if he could do that, making Primarchs would've been a walk in the park it seems to me.

 Orblivion wrote:
Maybe it isn't actually his DNA? It could be that he just created a generic geneseed not derived from any of the primarchs and then gave it some of his essence, similar to how the Chaos Gods empower their daemons.

Well, the current assumption is the Grey Knights' got their gene-seed directly from the Emperor. That's what I'm addressing, because to me, that doesn't seem like they're playing by their own rules.

Creating the primarchs required more than genetics. As they are beings both of the warp and of the physical plane, they would require MUCH more than a knowledge of genetics to engineer.

He either did alter his own physiology and regarded it as no more than how we might a particularly nice suit of armor, which would lend credence to the theory that he just handed over a fistfull of genetic material for Grey Knights...

OR...

He Emprah handwaved some basic geneseed he made out of loose carpet trimmings and old newspapers and called it divine.

 Shidank wrote:


Creating the primarchs required more than genetics. As they are beings both of the warp and of the physical plane, they would require MUCH more than a knowledge of genetics to engineer.

He either did alter his own physiology and regarded it as no more than how we might a particularly nice suit of armor, which would lend credence to the theory that he just handed over a fistfull of genetic material for Grey Knights...

OR...

He Emprah handwaved some basic geneseed he made out of loose carpet trimmings and old newspapers and called it divine.

Can you source that the statement that the Primarchs were beings of the physical plane AND the Warp?

Edit - Found that Warp knowledge was involved, but that they were being of the Warp (e.g. Daemons).

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


Creating the primarchs required more than genetics. As they are beings both of the warp and of the physical plane, they would require MUCH more than a knowledge of genetics to engineer.

He either did alter his own physiology and regarded it as no more than how we might a particularly nice suit of armor, which would lend credence to the theory that he just handed over a fistfull of genetic material for Grey Knights...

OR...

He Emprah handwaved some basic geneseed he made out of loose carpet trimmings and old newspapers and called it divine.

Can you source that the statement that the Primarchs were beings of the physical plane AND the Warp?

I'll refer you to all of the Horus Heresy series. I'm not sure there's been a book where the Primarch written hasn't shown an affinity for the immaterium.

It's like asking for a source for bolter shells being hard.

 Shidank wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


Creating the primarchs required more than genetics. As they are beings both of the warp and of the physical plane, they would require MUCH more than a knowledge of genetics to engineer.

He either did alter his own physiology and regarded it as no more than how we might a particularly nice suit of armor, which would lend credence to the theory that he just handed over a fistfull of genetic material for Grey Knights...

OR...

He Emprah handwaved some basic geneseed he made out of loose carpet trimmings and old newspapers and called it divine.

Can you source that the statement that the Primarchs were beings of the physical plane AND the Warp?

I'll refer you to all of the Horus Heresy series. I'm not sure there's been a book where the Primarch written hasn't shown an affinity for the immaterium.

It's like asking for a source for bolter shells being hard.

Not at all. I completely disagree they were Daemons/creatures of the Warp. Was there Warp knowledge involved in their creation? Sure. And showing affinity for the Warp doesn't make you a creature of it.

A very unique form, but essentially.

 Shidank wrote:
A very unique form, but essentially.

Once again, I'm gonna have to ask you for sources

Hell, there could be certain genes or mutations that make people psychic in wh40k.

I'm not trying to be an ass, I just want to actually figure out how the Grey Knights got their gene-seed, because I'm struggling to see how they got it from the Emperor.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
A very unique form, but essentially.

Once again, I'm gonna have to ask you for sources

Hell, there could be certain genes or mutations that make people psychic in wh40k.

I'm not trying to be an ass, I just want to actually figure out how the Grey Knights got their gene-seed, because I'm struggling to see how they got it from the Emperor.

As with much of 40k, you'll have to assemble your own sense of reason through the dozens of books and hundreds of short stories that fill the genre. I recommend starting with IG stories since stepping backwards and doing them later can be dull.

 Shidank wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
A very unique form, but essentially.

Once again, I'm gonna have to ask you for sources

Hell, there could be certain genes or mutations that make people psychic in wh40k.

I'm not trying to be an ass, I just want to actually figure out how the Grey Knights got their gene-seed, because I'm struggling to see how they got it from the Emperor.

As with much of 40k, you'll have to assemble your own sense of reason through the dozens of books and hundreds of short stories that fill the genre. I recommend starting with IG stories since stepping backwards and doing them later can be dull.

I've read quite extensively, so no need for that. No need to be patronising either, I'm just asking you for quotes

Not patronizing, just unsure of how you haven't arrived at this same conclusion if you've read as extensively as you claim.

Let's take a concrete example presented in universe such as Geneseed. Geneseed is fabricated using the genetics of a Primarch. Geneseed can pass a number of physical traits, but has been shown to pass on traits beyond the rationally explained. A firm example, the black rage. The genetic material itself ties to the warp and allows this same madness to infect marines across a variety of successor chapters.

Wasn't the emperor a corpse by the time the grey knights got into the swing of things?

Did he leave behind notes and the inquisition complete to job or what?

 CShaffer wrote:
Wasn't the emperor a corpse by the time the grey knights got into the swing of things?

Did he leave behind notes and the inquisition complete to job or what?

Yes, but only because Malcador had hidden them away for several hundred years while they studied demons and fighting.

 Shidank wrote:
Not patronizing, just unsure of how you haven't arrived at this same conclusion if you've read as extensively as you claim.

Let's take a concrete example presented in universe such as Geneseed. Geneseed is fabricated using the genetics of a Primarch. Geneseed can pass a number of physical traits, but has been shown to pass on traits beyond the rationally explained. A firm example, the black rage. The genetic material itself ties to the warp and allows this same madness to infect marines across a variety of successor chapters.

Of course the Black Rage is psychic in source, but that could be Sanguinius' own psychic imprint on his descendants. The Black Rage doesn't necessarily stem from the genetic code, unlike the Red Thirst.

But again, gene-seed is made from the DNA of Primarchs, who got their DNA from new genes (Or genes so different from their original ones they might as well be). If the Emperor could change his DNA at will rather than his body through psychic powers, that means the whole Primarch research project and the supposed deals with Chaos were complete and utter wastes of time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CShaffer wrote:
Wasn't the emperor a corpse by the time the grey knights got into the swing of things?

Did he leave behind notes and the inquisition complete to job or what?

The Emperor planned the Grey Knights before he died, and effectively handed the project over to Malcador prior to the Siege of Terra, after apparently stocking up Titan with recruits and gene-seed. After that, like Shidank said, Malcador hid Titan, and thus them, away in the Warp until the Second Founding, when they emerged, having started with only 12 members and a moon full of recruits just a few years earlier as time had flowed much faster in the Warp, they were a fully fledged Chapter. It's in the Grey Knights 5th codex

The point made was that the Black Rage isn't genetic. It is a warp influence carried by the genetic legacy of Sanguinius, a being who's genes are of the material and immaterial.

The Emperor feasibly used his knowledge to change his body. I'm not sure what about that sticks in your craw, but it's not only highly probable, it's all but admitted in that his physical stature is that of a primarch's. This does not negate the importance or difficulty in the Primarch project.

To be fair, you asked, and I've provided a probable answer in the form of the Emperor providing geneseed from his own manufactured body that would(also) be partly infused with the warp and would carry his own legacy of incorruptibility.


Read Scars if you'd like literature on a Primarch admitting that they're all of the warp. It's honestly a pretty good read anyway.

 Shidank wrote:
The point made was that the Black Rage isn't genetic. It is a warp influence carried by the genetic legacy of Sanguinius, a being who's genes are of the material and immaterial.

The Emperor feasibly used his knowledge to change his body. I'm not sure what about that sticks in your craw, but it's not only highly probable, it's all but admitted in that his physical stature is that of a primarch's. This does not negate the importance or difficulty in the Primarch project.

To be fair, you asked, and I've provided a probable answer in the form of the Emperor providing geneseed from his own manufactured body that would(also) be partly infused with the warp and would carry his own legacy of incorruptibility.


Read Scars if you'd like literature on a Primarch admitting that they're all of the warp. It's honestly a pretty good read anyway.

I'm not saying everything is purely genetic; in a world of magic there's obviously gonna be crossovers. I'm just struggling to see how the Emperor would bother with Betcher's Gland etc. The Emperor, while born of natural methods, is thousands of reincarnated psykers, which is how he's so incredibly powerful.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just find that particular theory difficult to believe

I guess I'm not understanding the nature of your question now that we've hopped to spitting acid. Could you phrase it better and I'll try and understand where you're coming from?

 Shidank wrote:
I guess I'm not understanding the nature of your question now that we've hopped to spitting acid. Could you phrase it better and I'll try and understand where you're coming from?

From OP:
So my assumptions are:
- The Emperor created or modified genes and organs so different from the original human (or other sources) ones that their original genes (if they were human) would be very difficult or impossible to recognise.
- The Primarchs had some variant of these organs and genes, whilst the Adeptus Astartes got modified versions derived from their respective Primarch's genome.
- The Emperor did not have these genes or organs originally, as the only source referring to his birth is Realm of Chaos from 1988, states he was born in the 8th century BC.

So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

Edit- realised the Grey Knights part was missing.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
I guess I'm not understanding the nature of your question now that we've hopped to spitting acid. Could you phrase it better and I'll try and understand where you're coming from?

From OP:
So my assumptions are:
- The Emperor created or modified genes and organs so different from the original human (or other sources) ones that their original genes (if they were human) would be very difficult or impossible to recognise.
- The Primarchs had some variant of these organs and genes, whilst the Adeptus Astartes got modified versions derived from their respective Primarch's genome.
- The Emperor did not have these genes or organs originally, as the only source referring to his birth is Realm of Chaos from 1988, states he was born in the 8th century BC.

So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

Edit- realised the Grey Knights part was missing.

While no geneticist, I took the new organs to be based on the Emperor's own immensely complex(through his own work)genetic template and for a being other than himself to survive with these organs, he invented the geneseed to regulate all of the implants. It's not so much creating a new species as it was creating more genetic possibility within the boundaries of humanity. He could have taken cues from all of history he had observed and specifically tinkered to create these organs to manufacture a perfect soldier. While baseline mankind's DNA would be the foundation, his more impressive cellular structure would be the brick and mortar.

1) They would be human, but the material of certain organs would be more sketchy.
2) The Primarchs were more like the emperor in that they needed no geneseed to regulate.
3) The Emperor did not. He made improvements. He's cool like that.

Well... I've never read the novel, but I know in Deliverance Lost, Corax got the original genetic materials used in creating the Primarchs from a sealed library on terra, under the guidance of the Emperor. At the end, we know Alpha Legion's got the complete data on the genetic materials. And since with the Alpha Legion any thing can happen, the data could have ended up in Malcador's hand, somehow. And Malcador might have been able to make superior geneseed for the GK.

Edit: Someone else in another Thread raised this hypothesis. I can't seem to find out who did, but I thought the whole "AL stealing Primarch Genetic materials and dicking Fabius Bile" thing is a really strange plot point left unsolved. IMO it has to come up at some point.

That would be an interesting theory to think about

I dont have a source, but I would think that the Emperor's DNA was a part of the geneseed. they have states in places that there are certain genes that make people psykers (The Astropath and navigation genes) With this in mind I would assume that being a gestalt psychic being as he was, the emperor had literal millennia to perfect his genecraft. He would first figure out his own DNA, then look at humans and then eventually animals. I haven’t done much research but I’d bet that all of the space marine organs have some sort of analogue in an animal or other part of the natural world. As far as where he got the gene seed, I was under the impression that the original geneseed he used for the Primarch was derived from his DNA, which is why he called them his sons, unlike the thunder warriors whom he just created out of modified human DNA. IF all of the assumptions (a very dangerous word) are correct then it would not have been hard for him to create un-altered geeneseed from himself, that was very corruption resistant, including organs that bear his DNA signature and set them up in an gene bank for later use. Malcador could have taken this bank to Titan when he created the Grey Knights. Again this is all speculation and assumption on my part, so if someone finds hard, contradictory evidence I would defer to it.

 Shidank wrote:


While no geneticist, I took the new organs to be based on the Emperor's own immensely complex(through his own work)genetic template and for a being other than himself to survive with these organs, he invented the geneseed to regulate all of the implants. It's not so much creating a new species as it was creating more genetic possibility within the boundaries of humanity. He could have taken cues from all of history he had observed and specifically tinkered to create these organs to manufacture a perfect soldier. While baseline mankind's DNA would be the foundation, his more impressive cellular structure would be the brick and mortar.

1) They would be human, but the material of certain organs would be more sketchy.
2) The Primarchs were more like the emperor in that they needed no geneseed to regulate.
3) The Emperor did not. He made improvements. He's cool like that.

Right, 'cause I am a geneticist

What do you mean the gene-seed regulates? The gene-seed exists in the progenoid glands and develops into proto-implants.

The Primarch's genome was derived in part from the Emperor's own, and had genes deleted. However, I'm wondering what further tinkering (read: extra genes added and modified) was done, as Leman Russ had wolf genes as well, suggesting DNA separate from the Emperor's was added to the Primarchs' genomes. So, if the Emperor had the genetic material required for all the extra glands, Betcher's gland, the omophagae etc. I don't see a problem at all, though I find it utterly bizarre that the Shaman council would have the required genetic knowledge to be able to reincarnate into the Emperor with said genetic template.

I find it far more likely that the Emperor, having some sort of superior genome, while deleting many of his own genes, did modify lready existing ones and adding new ones. E.g. he might have modified a "Psyker" gene in Magnus' case, and we know Leman Russ had extra wolf DNA added.

Then when creating the Adeptus Astartes, he created partially new genes and organs from scratch, like Betcher's gland and the omophaegae.

The geneseed makes the organs function in harmony. The Thunder Warriors had no such saving grace.

I doubt the shaman cared for genetics and we can thank the Emperor and his tens of thousands of years of life for his own knowledge and dickery with his own body. It's entirely possible that the amalgamated presence of the shaman made his genes unique and he spent a great deal of time unlocking that potential and passing it on, however.

 ChazSexington wrote:

The Primarch's genome was derived in part from the Emperor's own, and had genes deleted. However, I'm wondering what further tinkering (read: extra genes added and modified) was done, as Leman Russ had wolf genes as well, suggesting DNA separate from the Emperor's was added to the Primarchs' genomes. So, if the Emperor had the genetic material required for all the extra glands, Betcher's gland, the omophagae etc. I don't see a problem at all, though I find it utterly bizarre that the Shaman council would have the required genetic knowledge to be able to reincarnate into the Emperor with said genetic template.

I find it far more likely that the Emperor, having some sort of superior genome, while deleting many of his own genes, did modify lready existing ones and adding new ones. E.g. he might have modified a "Psyker" gene in Magnus' case, and we know Leman Russ had extra wolf DNA added.

Then when creating the Adeptus Astartes, he created partially new genes and organs from scratch, like Betcher's gland and the omophaegae.

In the risk of being called a fanboi again, I will say this about Leman Russ: he is unlikely to have any sort of canis genes or the sorts in him.

I say this because first: in A Thousand Sons, Magnus explained to Ahriman that Canis Helix, the gene seed component that initiates all the wolfy transformations in a Space Wolf Aspirant, is a product of ancient engineering of unknown origins found only on Fenris. And the genes that lead to the Fenrisian natives' toughness and hardiness are a result of that gene passing down in them. Now you are the expert here, But I doubt Canis genes can be spliced into human genes to produce Werewolves. So let's just take it as the "Word of God", so we know that's the cause of Wulfens.

Magnus claimed that the Fenrisian Wolves are the results of the genetic experiments done on the human population of Fenris, that turned some population into feral, wolf-like creatures. And the suggestion seems to be that Canix Helix is an extract of that gene intended to be used on Space Wolves initiatives only. (Also note that even during the Great Crusade, the Space Wolves Legion was already trying to recruit exclusively from Fenris, according to Bjorn from Scars, possibly because of genetic incompatibilities or whatever that is called, as what would then happen to the Wolf Brothers.). So the Canix Helix is not a part of the original gene-seed.

And secondly, in A Thousand Sons and the Burning of Prospero, contrary to the Space Wolf legionaries, Leman Russ is never depicted nor described to have fangs. In other words, Leman Russ doesn't have Canis Helix in him because Canis Helix is the reason Space Wolves even grow elongated fangs and long furs and whatever wolfy things they grow in the first place. Now I can't say for certain here but Leman Russ's personality is always described to be wearing a savage mask, and is more than it seems. He himself is probably still a non-fenrisian, only raised as one.

Thanks for the useful information! I never knew this is where the wolves came from originally, just that the helix had made them of SW aspirants.

 lcmiracle wrote:


In the risk of being called a fanboi again, I will say this about Leman Russ: he is unlikely to have any sort of canis genes or the sorts in him.

I say this because first: in A Thousand Sons, Magnus explained to Ahriman that Canis Helix, the gene seed component that initiates all the wolfy transformations in a Space Wolf Aspirant, is a product of ancient engineering of unknown origins found only on Fenris. And the genes that lead to the Fenrisian natives' toughness and hardiness are a result of that gene passing down in them. Now you are the expert here, But I doubt Canis genes can be spliced into human genes to produce Werewolves. So let's just take it as the "Word of God", so we know that's the cause of Wulfens.

Magnus claimed that the Fenrisian Wolves are the results of the genetic experiments done on the human population of Fenris, that turned some population into feral, wolf-like creatures. And the suggestion seems to be that Canix Helix is an extract of that gene intended to be used on Space Wolves initiatives only. (Also note that even during the Great Crusade, the Space Wolves Legion was already trying to recruit exclusively from Fenris, according to Bjorn from Scars, possibly because of genetic incompatibilities or whatever that is called, as what would then happen to the Wolf Brothers.). So the Canix Helix is not a part of the original gene-seed.

And secondly, in A Thousand Sons and the Burning of Prospero, contrary to the Space Wolf legionaries, Leman Russ is never depicted nor described to have fangs. In other words, Leman Russ doesn't have Canis Helix in him because Canis Helix is the reason Space Wolves even grow elongated fangs and long furs and whatever wolfy things they grow in the first place. Now I can't say for certain here but Leman Russ's personality is always described to be wearing a savage mask, and is more than it seems. He himself is probably still a non-fenrisian, only raised as one.

It's in Deliverance Lost. Russ has wolf DNA, confirmed by Raven Guard apothecaries. Though it is still entirely possible he didn't have the Canis helix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:
The geneseed makes the organs function in harmony. The Thunder Warriors had no such saving grace.

I doubt the shaman cared for genetics and we can thank the Emperor and his tens of thousands of years of life for his own knowledge and dickery with his own body. It's entirely possible that the amalgamated presence of the shaman made his genes unique and he spent a great deal of time unlocking that potential and passing it on, however.

I'm not entirely sure on that. Genetically modifying every single cell in your body, possibly thousands of times over...

However, it's mentioned in Deliverance Lost that the Primarchs had extra genes added, so it's likely that some or all glands were included.

Huh, that's interesting. I must say though, that is incredibly kind of the Gods of Chaos to send a Primarch with Wolf genes to a planet full of wolf-men. But I digress.

In fear of hi-jacking another thread, I don't suppose it is only legends that the GK has Emperor's own genetic materials in their gene-seeds? If it is just legends then it's possible for the gene-seeds to come from loyalist and traitor legions' gene-seeds held on Terra at that time.

I must admit right now is too early to say how the Grey Knights gene-seeds were created. We will just have to wait when and if the BL writers ever decide to resolve this plot point.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Huh, that's interesting. I must say though, that is incredibly kind of the Gods of Chaos to send a Primarch with Wolf genes to a planet full of wolf-men. But I digress.

In fear of hi-jacking another thread, I don't suppose it is only legends that the GK has Emperor's own genetic materials in their gene-seeds? If it is just legends then it's possible for the gene-seeds to come from loyalist and traitor legions' gene-seeds held on Terra at that time.

I must admit right now is too early to say how the Grey Knights gene-seeds were created. We will just have to wait when and if the BL writers ever decide to resolve this plot point.

The whole sending of the different Primarchs to the specific planets is mostly Deus Ex Machina, but can be also be the Emperor fighting back, resulting in the Primarchs ending up on planets more or less suited to them. However, it could also have been the Chaos Gods plans all along.

It's all but confirmed, but obviously it could be untrue! However, when the original Grey Knights (Iacton Qruze etc) arrived on Titan, the recruits were already there and the gene-seed was already made.

I was always more of the opinion that the Grey Knights were made from traitor legion geneseed, but that theory is getting thinner and thinner by the day.

 ChazSexington wrote:
I stopped playing wh40k around the time Daemon Hunters were released, and I found them odd already then. The Emperor made the Adeptus Astartes gene-seed from the Primarchs' DNA, and within these Primarchs must be genes for things that don't exist normally in the human genomes, like the mucranoid gland to the more out there omophagea. Of course, some I have no trouble with being made from human DNA already present, like the second hearts and lungs. Assuming the Primarchs had something akin to these organs, if not identical, but enough that the genes were the same, Adeptus Astartes would not be a problem. There are some phenotypic peculiarities, like Alpha Legionnaires being taller than most, whilst their Primarchs being small than the others, but that can easily be explained by a feed-back loop that prevents growth over a certain height in both, with the genes being inherent to the ossmodula. In a universe of space magic and armies of Captain Americas, suspension of disbelief on these matters is a rather simple thing.

So my assumptions are:
- The Emperor created or modified genes and organs so different from the original human (or other sources) ones that their original genes (if they were human) would be very difficult or impossible to recognise.
- The Primarchs had some variant of these organs and genes, whilst the Adeptus Astartes got modified versions derived from their respective Primarch's genome.
- The Emperor did not have these genes or organs originally, as the only source referring to his birth is Realm of Chaos from 1988, states he was born in the 8th century BC.

So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

The Emperor made the Primarchs from his own genetic material. Marines are made from the Primarchs.

Thus its hardly unreasonable that he could have skipped the middle step. Cloning is also not involved, its more like taking his own "perfect" DNA and then genetically manipulating it with artificial genes to create something new.

With enough knowledge of genetics you could create totally artificial genes to create entirely new organs with new functions. And since he already knew how to make space marines duplicating the process would have been easy. And he could use anything learned from the failures of Space Marines, and his own special super psyker genes, to make the GKs better.

 Shidank wrote:
I was always more of the opinion that the Grey Knights were made from traitor legion geneseed, but that theory is getting thinner and thinner by the day.

Aye, but it's still not impossible. Several of the original ones were from Traitor Legions, and there's even a theory Omegon is Janus, one of the founding Grey Knights. Recent thread.w

 Grey Templar wrote:

The Emperor made the Primarchs from his own genetic material. Marines are made from the Primarchs.

Thus its hardly unreasonable that he could have skipped the middle step. Cloning is also not involved, its more like taking his own "perfect" DNA and then genetically manipulating it with artificial genes to create something new.

With enough knowledge of genetics you could create totally artificial genes to create entirely new organs with new functions. And since he already knew how to make space marines duplicating the process would have been easy. And he could use anything learned from the failures of Space Marines, and his own special super psyker genes, to make the GKs better.

Aye, but the Grey Knights would be far more removed from the Emperor than Adeptus Astartes from their Primarchs.

Current Codex lore states that the geneseed of the Grey Knights is directly taken from the Emperor, Himself, which is why they are immune to Warp Corruption.

 Psienesis wrote:
Current Codex lore states that the geneseed of the Grey Knights is directly taken from the Emperor, Himself, which is why they are immune to Warp Corruption.

Does it state it outright?

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Current Codex lore states that the geneseed of the Grey Knights is directly taken from the Emperor, Himself, which is why they are immune to Warp Corruption.

Does it state it outright?

Yes it does.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
The point made was that the Black Rage isn't genetic. It is a warp influence carried by the genetic legacy of Sanguinius, a being who's genes are of the material and immaterial.

The Emperor feasibly used his knowledge to change his body. I'm not sure what about that sticks in your craw, but it's not only highly probable, it's all but admitted in that his physical stature is that of a primarch's. This does not negate the importance or difficulty in the Primarch project.

To be fair, you asked, and I've provided a probable answer in the form of the Emperor providing geneseed from his own manufactured body that would(also) be partly infused with the warp and would carry his own legacy of incorruptibility.


Read Scars if you'd like literature on a Primarch admitting that they're all of the warp. It's honestly a pretty good read anyway.

I'm not saying everything is purely genetic; in a world of magic there's obviously gonna be crossovers. I'm just struggling to see how the Emperor would bother with Betcher's Gland etc. The Emperor, while born of natural methods, is thousands of reincarnated psykers, which is how he's so incredibly powerful.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just find that particular theory difficult to believe

The Emperor essentially had the power of a lesser God of Chaos, only he was tethered the physical realm. You think that he'd risk getting killed and being devoured by the major Chaos Gods? No! Any idiot would change his body to be stronger, faster, tougher, etc. in order to be able to survive things that would otherwise kill them. What, you think the Emperor just got smacked in the face by the Void Dragon and survived because of magic? No! He made himself superhuman, just like anybody else would, had they had the power to do so and were living forever.


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 Grey Templar wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
I stopped playing wh40k around the time Daemon Hunters were released, and I found them odd already then. The Emperor made the Adeptus Astartes gene-seed from the Primarchs' DNA, and within these Primarchs must be genes for things that don't exist normally in the human genomes, like the mucranoid gland to the more out there omophagea. Of course, some I have no trouble with being made from human DNA already present, like the second hearts and lungs. Assuming the Primarchs had something akin to these organs, if not identical, but enough that the genes were the same, Adeptus Astartes would not be a problem. There are some phenotypic peculiarities, like Alpha Legionnaires being taller than most, whilst their Primarchs being small than the others, but that can easily be explained by a feed-back loop that prevents growth over a certain height in both, with the genes being inherent to the ossmodula. In a universe of space magic and armies of Captain Americas, suspension of disbelief on these matters is a rather simple thing.

So my assumptions are:
- The Emperor created or modified genes and organs so different from the original human (or other sources) ones that their original genes (if they were human) would be very difficult or impossible to recognise.
- The Primarchs had some variant of these organs and genes, whilst the Adeptus Astartes got modified versions derived from their respective Primarch's genome.
- The Emperor did not have these genes or organs originally, as the only source referring to his birth is Realm of Chaos from 1988, states he was born in the 8th century BC.

So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

The Emperor made the Primarchs from his own genetic material. Marines are made from the Primarchs.

Thus its hardly unreasonable that he could have skipped the middle step. Cloning is also not involved, its more like taking his own "perfect" DNA and then genetically manipulating it with artificial genes to create something new.

With enough knowledge of genetics you could create totally artificial genes to create entirely new organs with new functions. And since he already knew how to make space marines duplicating the process would have been easy. And he could use anything learned from the failures of Space Marines, and his own special super psyker genes, to make the GKs better.

Yes, but that begs the question of "why don't the Grey Knights have more power than ordinary Space Marines?" If Grey Knights came directly from the Emperor and the Primarchs came directly from the Emperor, wouldn't the Grey Knights be just a little bit faster, stronger, bigger, etc. than your standard Space Marines?

Not necessarily. Their focus was on psychic abilities while retaining the physical perfection of a Space Marine. At that they're undeniably successful.

The Daemonhunter codex also did in fact say that GKs are better than normal Marines in general.

Well we can definitely say they're stronger. They all get the Hammerhand psychic power.

 DarkLink wrote:
The Daemonhunter codex also did in fact say that GKs are better than normal Marines in general.

Yes, well, "better" is a matter of opinion. For instance, I could say that the GK reliance upon close combat makes them worse than other Chapters who are well-balanced. I could say that their focus on Daemons makes them worse than, say, the UM who have are skilled in combating Xenos and Daemon alike. It's all a matter of perspective, IMO.

I wouldn't say they're reliant on close combat. Their basic standard issue equipment is better than what a regular marine gets.

Regular Marine: Bolter, Pistol, Combat Knife, Grenades.

Grey Knight: Stormbolter, Nemesis Force Weapon, Grenades.

Grey Knights are also explicitly trained in other foes, because anyone could have a daemonic artifact or cause a daemonic incursion. Thus the GKs have to be prepared to face anyone and anything, in addition to Daemons.

dusara217, you're misunderstanding. The Daemonhunters codex (and really, both newer GK codices) literally explicitly stated that GKs were physically superior, better trained in both marksmanship and hand to hand combat, and basically straight up better than normal Space Marines. Not "well, they're better against daemons", not at all. In fact, contrary to a lot of popular belief the GK fluff goes to great length to explain why they fight stuff other than daemons and are still extremely effective against everything. I could dig up some quotes.


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"The most advanced psycho surgery and bioengineering isused to condition the aspirants into the mightiest warriors in the galaxy, immune to fear and sights that would blast the sanity of even 'normal' Space Marines'."

There's a lengthy quote I'm too lazy to type up about how Grey Knight Terminators are each individually psykers surpassing the power of most Librarians. There are some similar quotes about other aspects, such as their equipment and ships being similarly superior. And that's just the Daemonhunters codex.

 DarkLink wrote:
dusara217, you're misunderstanding. The Daemonhunters codex (and really, both newer GK codices) literally explicitly stated that GKs were physically superior, better trained in both marksmanship and hand to hand combat, and basically straight up better than normal Space Marines. Not "well, they're better against daemons", not at all. In fact, contrary to a lot of popular belief the GK fluff goes to great length to explain why they fight stuff other than daemons and are still extremely effective against everything. I could dig up some quotes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"The most advanced psycho surgery and bioengineering isused to condition the aspirants into the mightiest warriors in the galaxy, immune to fear and sights that would blast the sanity of even 'normal' Space Marines'."

There's a lengthy quote I'm too lazy to type up about how Grey Knight Terminators are each individually psykers surpassing the power of most Librarians. There are some similar quotes about other aspects, such as their equipment and ships being similarly superior. And that's just the Daemonhunters codex.

I see. Well, I'm in the bandwagon of them be Empeorr's Geneseed, then

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say they're reliant on close combat. Their basic standard issue equipment is better than what a regular marine gets.

Regular Marine: Bolter, Pistol, Combat Knife, Grenades.

Grey Knight: Stormbolter, Nemesis Force Weapon, Grenades.

Grey Knights are also explicitly trained in other foes, because anyone could have a daemonic artifact or cause a daemonic incursion. Thus the GKs have to be prepared to face anyone and anything, in addition to Daemons.

and only GKs bother to issue grenades to their terminators

The selection process is a big difference as well. GKs are far more selective than any other SM chapter for those who even get to try to be one. The selection process itself is far more brutal due to the additional constraints of the psyker training and the exposure to chaos and the warp. Some SM chapters will even take their most promising psychic recruits and send them over to the GKs. So you get a better pool of candidates, more rigorous training, etc, you're going to end up with a stronger Marine. The possibility of the Emperor's geneseed is just part of it.

So when someone says the Gk fluff is "Space Marines but better", they're not being sarcastic . And that wasn't Mat Ward's doing, either.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Current Codex lore states that the geneseed of the Grey Knights is directly taken from the Emperor, Himself, which is why they are immune to Warp Corruption.

Does it state it outright?

Yes it does.

And my fortune cookies say Made in America.

 Shidank wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Current Codex lore states that the geneseed of the Grey Knights is directly taken from the Emperor, Himself, which is why they are immune to Warp Corruption.

Does it state it outright?

Yes it does.

And my fortune cookies say Made in America.

Funny, because most Fortune Cookies are made in America and contrary to popular belief, did not originate from China.

 Grimskul wrote:


Funny, because most Fortune Cookies are made in America and contrary to popular belief, did not originate from China.

And the award for missing the joke goes to...!

Lol I'm teasing. It would only make sense to make a statement like "Derived from the Emperor" for an institution like the Grey Knights. To think you would find another claim in fluff is ridiculous.

Surely you see the irony in staking a belief on a claim made in a fictional history of a society that regularly employs lies, dogmatism, and blatant propaganda to achieve its ends?

It's almost too obvious that they Grey Knights are not of the Emperor's geneseed, yet I find that theory as viable as any given the information we have.

My problem is the genetic aspect of this.

Either the Emperor's genome included gene-seed organs (or something quite close), or the Grey Knights are VERY distantly related to the Emperor.

 ChazSexington wrote:
My problem is the genetic aspect of this.

Either the Emperor's genome included gene-seed organs (or something quite close), or the Grey Knights are VERY distantly related to the Emperor.

My problem with this view is that it's like looking at a suburban development and saying the houses were always there.

The Emperor's genome may have made these things possible, but it does not mean he had these brilliantly contrived biological implants.

The development of those organs requires the gene-seed, all of which originates from the Emperor in the first place, but the Emperor, himself, did not need or require the organs.

For most Space Marines, the genetic line goes something like this:

Emperor > Primarch > 10,000 years of re-cloning geneseed > Space Marine

For the Grey Knights, it goes like this:

Emperor > Fully-stocked banks of pristine geneseed > Grey Knight.

 Psienesis wrote:
The development of those organs requires the gene-seed, all of which originates from the Emperor in the first place, but the Emperor, himself, did not need or require the organs.

For most Space Marines, the genetic line goes something like this:

Emperor > Primarch > 10,000 years of re-cloning geneseed > Space Marine

For the Grey Knights, it goes like this:

Emperor > Fully-stocked banks of pristine geneseed > Grey Knight.

They are going to extract the Progenoids and replace them the same way as the normal Astartes though, so they aren't fully stocked anymore I can imagine. So as a second founding Chapter they have new stock and it's as close to the original source, if it is the Emperor, as possible. Not degraded by the techniques used by the original Legions to increase mass production.

There's only 1000 GK at any one time, at most. They don't die all that often, and they live for centuries. If you have a gene-seed bank that has enough gene-seed for a billion Marines, it will last a good long time.

 Psienesis wrote:
There's only 1000 GK at any one time, at most. They don't die all that often, and they live for centuries. If you have a gene-seed bank that has enough gene-seed for a billion Marines, it will last a good long time.

True, but we don't know how many sets they made. They might have only made 1000.

The quote we're given is something like "fully-stocked banks of pristine geneseed, the Emperor's genetic legacy" in the current GK Codex. I don't have it right here in front of me, unfortunately.

But, even if they only had 1000 sets, they still have one up on the other Space Marines. Their geneseed was cultivated directly from the Emperor, rather than cultivated from the Emperor, chopped up, put in a blender, then separated into different things for the twenty Primarchs, and then put into another blender, mixed with some scraps and filler he had laying around the lab, and then, finally, put into production for the Legions, since the Primarchs got thrown into the Warp.

It is this direct genetic imprint that is implied to be "perfect", which is why GK geneseed does not suffer mutation or degradation of any kind.

 Psienesis wrote:
The quote we're given is something like "fully-stocked banks of pristine geneseed, the Emperor's genetic legacy" in the current GK Codex. I don't have it right here in front of me, unfortunately.

But, even if they only had 1000 sets, they still have one up on the other Space Marines. Their geneseed was cultivated directly from the Emperor, rather than cultivated from the Emperor, chopped up, put in a blender, then separated into different things for the twenty Primarchs, and then put into another blender, mixed with some scraps and filler he had laying around the lab, and then, finally, put into production for the Legions, since the Primarchs got thrown into the Warp.

It is this direct genetic imprint that is implied to be "perfect", which is why GK geneseed does not suffer mutation or degradation of any kind.

Which is what I said, that it doesn't suffer from the same degradation as the original Legions. But say they don't have an amazing large gene-bank that hasn't been depleted, then they would still need to use the same methods as the other Chapters to replenish ranks.

Not if they can cultivate a brand-new set of progenoids from the usual slave-stock that other Chapters do, or do so entirely in a sterile lab. That way, you go straight from the original imprint to the organs to be implanted. You don't intermingle it with successive "generations" of Space Marines, from progenoid to progenoid. While most Chapters hold that this leads to better Space Marines, inheriting some of the experience and skill of whoever's progenoid they're getting, this is also a cause of genetic degradation.

 Psienesis wrote:
Not if they can cultivate a brand-new set of progenoids from the usual slave-stock that other Chapters do, or do so entirely in a sterile lab. That way, you go straight from the original imprint to the organs to be implanted. You don't intermingle it with successive "generations" of Space Marines, from progenoid to progenoid. While most Chapters hold that this leads to better Space Marines, inheriting some of the experience and skill of whoever's progenoid they're getting, this is also a cause of genetic degradation.

Exactly.

It all depends on how they replace it, which to my knowledge we don't know.

 Psienesis wrote:
The development of those organs requires the gene-seed, all of which originates from the Emperor in the first place, but the Emperor, himself, did not need or require the organs.

For most Space Marines, the genetic line goes something like this:

Emperor > Primarch > 10,000 years of re-cloning geneseed > Space Marine

For the Grey Knights, it goes like this:

Emperor > Fully-stocked banks of pristine geneseed > Grey Knight.

Which is where I get hung up in the detail. The Emperor is reincarnated from loads of psykers, but his genome is still based off the human one to a large degree. Now it's been suggested that he changes his genetic code at will, but I find that odd. Now unless this is contradicted in the fluff, I find it much more likely that during the Primarch Project the Emperor and his scientists made entirely novel organs from either entirely novel genes or changed genes to a massive degree, giving the Primarchs at the very minimum a switched-off variant. Then during the creation of the Grey Knights, he added in the same novel organs to their genome, whilst basing parts of it off himself (whilst adding or keeping the parts of his genome which grants them the Chaos vaccine).

I'll admit, you've lost me. Of COURSE the Emperor invented organs and changed genetics in creating the Legions. Can you please explain your concerns in a more concise fashion?

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


Creating the primarchs required more than genetics. As they are beings both of the warp and of the physical plane, they would require MUCH more than a knowledge of genetics to engineer.

He either did alter his own physiology and regarded it as no more than how we might a particularly nice suit of armor, which would lend credence to the theory that he just handed over a fistfull of genetic material for Grey Knights...

OR...

He Emprah handwaved some basic geneseed he made out of loose carpet trimmings and old newspapers and called it divine.

Can you source that the statement that the Primarchs were beings of the physical plane AND the Warp?

I'll refer you to all of the Horus Heresy series. I'm not sure there's been a book where the Primarch written hasn't shown an affinity for the immaterium.

It's like asking for a source for bolter shells being hard.

Not at all. I completely disagree they were Daemons/creatures of the Warp. Was there Warp knowledge involved in their creation? Sure. And showing affinity for the Warp doesn't make you a creature of it.

The Emperor directly stole knowledge from Chaos to create the Primarchs, and all of the Primarchs are highly psychic entities.

 Shidank wrote:
I'll admit, you've lost me. Of COURSE the Emperor invented organs and changed genetics in creating the Legions. Can you please explain your concerns in a more concise fashion?

Because I can't see how the novel organs the Space Marines receive from the novel genes can arise from the Emperor, seen as his genome, to an extent, is human, without most of the genetic foundation required for gene-seed, e.g. you can't take a human genome and make gene-seed from him. When you then say the gene-seed is taken from the Emperor... well, what did they take? I just don't get it. With the Primarchs there's no problem due to the Emperor hase modified the Primarch's DNA to include genes, possible the genes for the different gene-seed implants, thus meaning the Adeptus Astartes are derived from the Primarchs.

Now I get the Emperor is different on a genetic level, but where did they get the DNA for non-human organs?

 Wyzilla wrote:

The Emperor directly stole knowledge from Chaos to create the Primarchs, and all of the Primarchs are highly psychic entities.

Cheers, but isn't that about their spiritual engineering or something? Not about Betcher's gland et al?

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
I'll admit, you've lost me. Of COURSE the Emperor invented organs and changed genetics in creating the Legions. Can you please explain your concerns in a more concise fashion?

Because I can't see how the novel organs the Space Marines receive from the novel genes can arise from the Emperor, seen as his genome, to an extent, is human, without most of the genetic foundation required for gene-seed, e.g. you can't take a human genome and make gene-seed from him. When you then say the gene-seed is taken from the Emperor... well, what did they take? I just don't get it. With the Primarchs there's no problem due to the Emperor hase modified the Primarch's DNA to include genes, possible the genes for the different gene-seed implants, thus meaning the Adeptus Astartes are derived from the Primarchs.

Now I get the Emperor is different on a genetic level, but where did they get the DNA for non-human organs?

 Wyzilla wrote:

The Emperor directly stole knowledge from Chaos to create the Primarchs, and all of the Primarchs are highly psychic entities.

Cheers, but isn't that about their spiritual engineering or something? Not about Betcher's gland et al?

Ah, you want an evolutionary pathway in the DNA to make these organs naturally possible? I don't have the expertise to say whether or not that's outright impossible, but I will say it's beyond our science to be able to explain in a practical way. I imagined the organs were vatgrown lego builds of cells that do not at all match up to human dna that are governed, incorporated, and regulated by the fantasy of the geneseed, an essentially deus ex organ made of stem cells and nervous systems. The inherent magic of warpcraft in the Primarchs means we can build their organ stories out of handwavium.

my guess is the emperor used his own DNA as a basis and then built upon it. I'm given the impression that the gene seed of space Marines, requires, among other things, a degree of the "essence" of a powerful "Primarch figure" rather then using the Primarchs the emperor instead granted the GK Gene seed a degree of his own "essence"

for lack of a better term.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
I'll admit, you've lost me. Of COURSE the Emperor invented organs and changed genetics in creating the Legions. Can you please explain your concerns in a more concise fashion?

Because I can't see how the novel organs the Space Marines receive from the novel genes can arise from the Emperor, seen as his genome, to an extent, is human, without most of the genetic foundation required for gene-seed, e.g. you can't take a human genome and make gene-seed from him. When you then say the gene-seed is taken from the Emperor... well, what did they take? I just don't get it. With the Primarchs there's no problem due to the Emperor hase modified the Primarch's DNA to include genes, possible the genes for the different gene-seed implants, thus meaning the Adeptus Astartes are derived from the Primarchs.

Now I get the Emperor is different on a genetic level, but where did they get the DNA for non-human organs?

 Wyzilla wrote:

The Emperor directly stole knowledge from Chaos to create the Primarchs, and all of the Primarchs are highly psychic entities.

Cheers, but isn't that about their spiritual engineering or something? Not about Betcher's gland et al?

That's the point. The Primarchs are wrought from the warp.

 Wyzilla wrote:


That's the point. The Primarchs are wrought from the warp.

Not entirely though, handwaving "magic" might work for some of it, but then all the scientists and the genetics research would be utterly useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:

Ah, you want an evolutionary pathway in the DNA to make these organs naturally possible? I don't have the expertise to say whether or not that's outright impossible, but I will say it's beyond our science to be able to explain in a practical way. I imagined the organs were vatgrown lego builds of cells that do not at all match up to human dna that are governed, incorporated, and regulated by the fantasy of the geneseed, an essentially deus ex organ made of stem cells and nervous systems. The inherent magic of warpcraft in the Primarchs means we can build their organ stories out of handwavium.

Precisely, and we're agreeing here! Creating them in the distant future may be possible (bar maybe the omophagea) in the real world!

When they then take the Primarch's gene-seed (genetics), it would only apply to the Adeptus' implants, because, afaik, that's all they get. Sure, they can vat-grow organs separately, but unless they're derived from the Primarchs' genome they're not related. So unless the Emperor has the genes required for the gene-seed, it makes no sense to derive gene-seed from the Emperor. To me, it seems like someone done goofed on the Grey Knights from a genetic fluff perspective

The Primarchs' genetic code is likewise derived from the Emperor. They are, in effect, clones of him... simply structured so that each of the Primarchs embodies certain traits over others, mixed with a bit of Warp-stuff to make it work.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
I guess I'm not understanding the nature of your question now that we've hopped to spitting acid. Could you phrase it better and I'll try and understand where you're coming from?

From OP:
So my assumptions are:
- The Emperor created or modified genes and organs so different from the original human (or other sources) ones that their original genes (if they were human) would be very difficult or impossible to recognise.
- The Primarchs had some variant of these organs and genes, whilst the Adeptus Astartes got modified versions derived from their respective Primarch's genome.
- The Emperor did not have these genes or organs originally, as the only source referring to his birth is Realm of Chaos from 1988, states he was born in the 8th century BC.

So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

Edit- realised the Grey Knights part was missing.

I think you can view it like this.
Primarch genes seed = Space Marines
Emperor genes seed = Grey Knights

I wouldn't consider Emperor or Grey Knights are better than Space Marines... So Emperor wanted different marines for different tasks.

The New Man was born in 8,000 BC and 38,000 years later he became the Emperor. He had 38,000 years to change many forms and his DNA and genes can be modify to his choosing. I'm not sure why you are asking why it was impossible for him to change his DNA. We know he took many guises (more than likely... over 1,000 identities) before his final guise as the Emperor... so he was very capable of changing his DNA.

Taking guises and psychically changing/masking his form doesn't neccesarily mean his DNA changed.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Taking guises and psychically changing/masking his form doesn't neccesarily mean his DNA changed.

This is fiction, it is possible and why not? If the New Man was born as Turkish (I don't know his race... so lets just go with it) in 8,000BC and in 3,000BC he took the guises as an Egypt Pharaoh... his height, weight, pigment, etc... has changed so much his DNA has changed. I think the issue here is that you think that his masking is an illusion. I think it was morphing or total physically changed. Not an Illusion. Also, his last guise as the giant man with halo name Emperor is also a physically changed.. none of his identities were illusion.

Remember the New Man was a powerful psychic with 1,000s of shaman identities and souls fused into one soul... they had the power of reincarnation... shape shifting or DNA manipulation should be one of his basic powers.

 david choe wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Taking guises and psychically changing/masking his form doesn't neccesarily mean his DNA changed.

This is fiction, it is possible and why not? If the New Man was born as Turkish (I don't know his race... so lets just go with it) in 8,000BC and in 3,000BC he took the guises as an Egypt Pharaoh... his height, weight, pigment, etc... has changed so much his DNA has changed. I think the issue here is that you think that his masking is an illusion. I think it was morphing or total physically changed. Not an Illusion. Also, his last guise as the giant man with halo name Emperor is also a physically changed.. none of his identities were illusion.

Remember the New Man was a powerful psychic with 1,000s of shaman identities and souls fused into one soul... they had the power of reincarnation... shape shifting or DNA manipulation should be one of his basic powers.

But there's no evidence that he physically changed his DNA. Again, you need to stop arguing your opinions so strongly as if they're fact. Me thinking differently to you isn't 'an issue'. Shape Shifting clearly is one of his powers, but that doesn't mean he physically changes his DNA. More than likely he psychically masks his appearance. His powers are psychic powers, DNA manipulation would be a physical power.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Taking guises and psychically changing/masking his form doesn't neccesarily mean his DNA changed.

This is fiction, it is possible and why not? If the New Man was born as Turkish (I don't know his race... so lets just go with it) in 8,000BC and in 3,000BC he took the guises as an Egypt Pharaoh... his height, weight, pigment, etc... has changed so much his DNA has changed. I think the issue here is that you think that his masking is an illusion. I think it was morphing or total physically changed. Not an Illusion. Also, his last guise as the giant man with halo name Emperor is also a physically changed.. none of his identities were illusion.

Remember the New Man was a powerful psychic with 1,000s of shaman identities and souls fused into one soul... they had the power of reincarnation... shape shifting or DNA manipulation should be one of his basic powers.

But there's no evidence that he physically changed his DNA. Again, you need to stop arguing your opinions so strongly as if they're fact. Me thinking differently to you isn't 'an issue'. Shape Shifting clearly is one of his powers, but that doesn't mean he physically changes his DNA. More than likely he psychically masks his appearance. His powers are psychic powers, DNA manipulation would be a physical power.

Listen.. I've notice that every time I post my PO and somebody expressed their PO and somehow I must concede. Why?

Why is your PO correct and why are you so strongly convicted on this issue? I never said you were wrong did I? Why must you be right when we both are expressing theory... are we not? Unless you have facts, it is just your PO.

So what or how should I reply?

1 - You are right. I was mistaken, The New Man psychic power can not change his DNA because you said so.

OR

2 - I think I am still right because if your were a Black Man... and now you a White Woman ... you can't have the same DNA. The whole power of his psychic ability is to change his DNA and the result of this ability is the different human being identities. You are going backward by changing his guise and the DNA stays the same. You should look at it from biology POV. His power changed his DNA and the result is different looking people.

He's just projecting a psychic mask over himself, why does that need to change his DNA? If I put a mask on, my DNA doesn't chnage does it?

You can express a theory all you want. That's not what you're doing. You're saying other people are wrong (usually when they have evidence) because it goes against your opinion. It's a two way street my friend.

@david choe

Please stop trying to de-rail threads with your unfounded circular logic about the Emperor's nature and your weird obsession (and misinterpretation) of guises. You've already ruined multiple threads, don't spread it here as well.

 ImAGeek wrote:
He's just projecting a psychic mask over himself, why does that need to change his DNA? If I put a mask on, my DNA doesn't chnage does it?

You can express a theory all you want. That's not what you're doing. You're saying other people are wrong (usually when they have evidence) because it goes against your opinion. It's a two way street my friend.

Mask is a Mask.. not going to disagree with you. He had that power too.

He also has the ability to change as a whole too. It is fiction so maybe ...his true form is 6ft Turkish man...He changed to MLK during 1950s True change down to DNA.... and as MLK... he walked in to white areas and choose to just Mask as a white person to avoid confrontation. Then take off the Mask and back to MLK. Maybe DNA change takes times like days or hours and Mask is right a way... who knows.

Again, I think there are many times in 40K games and stories where psychic, Chaos gifts, game psychic power that change the actual biology of the being. We must assume that the DNA was effected when we see Chaos SM with freaking lizard tail! That is not and illusion or a Mask. It was a blessing from Chaos. You don't think The New Man who i possessed the most powerful psychic power in the galaxy can't change a simple DNA? He must Mask it?

LOL, go look up the past 3 posts my friend. You came to rebuttal me. To disagree with me, is telling me I am wrong. I defend my position. Yet, I still never say you are wrong. You are making stuff up about me. This is a warning, if you keep this up I will report you. BTW - I don't even mind if you disagree... this is a discussion. However, I have not tell anybody they are wrong. You are.

Disagreeing with someone's argument, including asserting that their conclusion is wrong, is not against the rules.

 Grimskul wrote:
@david choe

Please stop trying to de-rail threads with your unfounded circular logic about the Emperor's nature and your weird obsession (and misinterpretation) of guises. You've already ruined multiple threads, don't spread it here as well.

LOL, you guys are the same people who follows me and tries to start something.

I haven't derail anything. It is you who is derailing.

We are talking about the New Man ability to change his DNA which is part of this discussion.


Please, stop this or I will report you. This is the only way for you guys to stop derail this and stay on topic.

If you think I am wrong, I have post my position and you can disprove it with facts. What you are doing is character attacking and has no facts at all. Show me proof of what I've stated on this post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Disagreeing with someone's argument, including asserting that their conclusion is wrong, is not against the rules.

MOD, did I say to him that he was wrong as he was claiming? Was my PO telling everybody to back off? I am expressing my thought just like other people. What is the different here?

Please show me where I stated that he was wrong as he was claiming.

What is clamming?

 Manchu wrote:
What is clamming?

LOL, i hate auto correction.

I didn't mean here in particular. I meant your posts in general.

Did you mean claiming?

The thing is, we don't know much about the Emperor. There is no reason to assume that he has the ability to change his own DNA. If he looks differently from time to time, surely we can ascribe that to his psychic powers. And seeing how those powers are essentially magical (i.e., as a literary device, they intentionally defy rational explanation) we cannot even assume they operate according to material logic, e.g., DNA modification.

Yes. That's exactly what I was trying to get at, but as usual better written.

 Manchu wrote:
Did you mean claiming?

The thing is, we don't know much about the Emperor. There is no reason to assume that he has the ability to change his own DNA. If he looks differently from time to time, surely we can ascribe that to his psychic powers. And seeing how those powers are essentially magical (i.e., as a literary device, they intentionally defy rational explanation) we cannot even assume they operate according to material logic, e.g., DNA modification.

ahhh but this would be your PO. I mean in the end... we are talking about "Magic".

But lets study this concept a bit from science POV.

What if his power in scientific term is DNA manipulation. The result will be all the humanoid forms he can shape into. Almost like Mystique from X-men.

To me it explain everything. The Magic did it has more validity when the Magic changed the DNA and the result is the different identities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't mean here in particular. I meant your posts in general.

Oh so you are character attacking me... you have oracle power to predict the future and wanted to act like judge and jury and get MOD to attack me before I did anything?

You can't see the irony in this? You are the one who is derailing and borderline breaking rule #1

It is a fact, and not merely my "PO," that psychic power -- as a literary device -- is magic, i.e., it defies rational explanation.

The idea that psychic power can change DNA is not a bad theory. For example, it is said the Emperor used sorcery (which I have always interpreted to mean a kind of psychic power) to engineer the Primarchs. But I am not aware of any evidence that the Emperor ever changed his own DNA.

 david choe wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Did you mean claiming?

The thing is, we don't know much about the Emperor. There is no reason to assume that he has the ability to change his own DNA. If he looks differently from time to time, surely we can ascribe that to his psychic powers. And seeing how those powers are essentially magical (i.e., as a literary device, they intentionally defy rational explanation) we cannot even assume they operate according to material logic, e.g., DNA modification.

ahhh but this would be your PO. I mean in the end... we are talking about "Magic".

But lets study this concept a bit from science POV.

What if his power in scientific term is DNA manipulation. The result will be all the humanoid forms he can shape into. Almost like Mystique from X-men.

To me it explain everything. The Magic did it has more validity when the Magic changed the DNA and the result is the different identities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't mean here in particular. I meant your posts in general.

Oh so you are character attacking me... you have oracle power to predict the future and wanted to act like judge and jury and get MOD to attack me before I did anything?

You can't see the irony in this? You are the one who is derailing and borderline breaking rule #1

Seriously, this is the last im gonna say because I'm probably pissing the mods off as much as you are now, no where did I 'get a mod to attack you'. They're free thinking individuals, not my Attack dogs. Seeing as you've got about three threads locked at this point, I don't actually think I'm the issue here. But that's it, I'm done arguing with you about this.

Manchu, apologies for going off topic, and I know I haven't exactly helped the situation. Sorry.

No worries -- let's all of us get back on-topic ...

... which is

 ChazSexington wrote:
So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

But I am not really sure why OP assumes the necessary genes are missing.

 Manchu wrote:
It is a fact, and not merely my "PO," that psychic power -- as a literary device -- is magic, i.e., it defies rational explanation.

The idea that psychic power can change DNA is not a bad theory. For example, it is said the Emperor used sorcery (which I have always interpreted to mean a kind of psychic power) to engineer the Primarchs. But I am not aware of any evidence that the Emperor ever changed his own DNA.

I know it is Magic and I am not disagreeing with you.

I don't think there is any evidence that the Emperor ever changed his own DNA. But at the same time, there has never been any evidence to contradict.

So we just have to assume if he can or can not based on our own PO.

However, I would like you to consider that the Emperor was the most powerful psychic in the galaxy.
1. if Chaos powers can "bless" or Mutant exist... and I think there is one psychic power in the game in biomancy that give you +1 T and +1 S to represent the change in your biology structure... I assume that during that period.. your DNA is changed too. I mean you are bigger and tougher.
2. The New Man, according to old fluff ... he was like Jesus and he healed to sick and even did some miracle healing... this is heavy biology stuff. I just see him being able to fix DNA so he can heal or grow limp or whatever.

Among the many hats the Emperor wore, "Super-Scientist" was at least forty of them. Changing, splicing, creating, adding and subtracting genetic data from the human genome (and, possibly, that of other species) is certainly within his abilities, as we see in his Primarch Project, as well as the Thunder Warriors, the Custodes, and who-knows-how-many other manipulations of Mankind throughout future-history.

After all, the guy had nearly 40,000 years to study any sciences he damn well wanted to study... and when you're sitting on the ruins of Earth with nothing to do but butcher other techno-barbarians, you can get a whole lot of reading done.

1. if Chaos powers can "bless" or Mutant exist... and I think there is one psychic power in the game in biomancy that give you +1 T and +1 S to represent the change in your biology structure... I assume that during that period.. your DNA is changed too. I mean you are bigger and tougher.

This is a physiological change, not a genetic change. You can get bigger and tougher by working out regularly, but this doesn't change your genetic structure.

 Psienesis wrote:
Among the many hats the Emperor wore, "Super-Scientist" was at least forty of them. Changing, splicing, creating, adding and subtracting genetic data from the human genome (and, possibly, that of other species) is certainly within his abilities, as we see in his Primarch Project, as well as the Thunder Warriors, the Custodes, and who-knows-how-many other manipulations of Mankind throughout future-history.

After all, the guy had nearly 40,000 years to study any sciences he damn well wanted to study... and when you're sitting on the ruins of Earth with nothing to do but butcher other techno-barbarians, you can get a whole lot of reading done.

1. if Chaos powers can "bless" or Mutant exist... and I think there is one psychic power in the game in biomancy that give you +1 T and +1 S to represent the change in your biology structure... I assume that during that period.. your DNA is changed too. I mean you are bigger and tougher.

This is a physiological change, not a genetic change. You can get bigger and tougher by working out regularly, but this doesn't change your genetic structure.

Depends on how you view this change. I view it as this normal man has some bear DNA like in him to make him stronger and tougher. There is no way a human DNA muscle and bones can change enough to be that much stronger. Just like SM +1T +1S is by changing DNA of man. Again, I view changing is first down the the scientific level first... DNA and the result is what we get... stronger, tougher, etc... The "magic" changed everything in biological level.

S3 or S4?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafthór_Júlíus_Björnsson
He didn't change his DNA at all.
I have not doubt the Emperor could change his genetic make up, but what's the point if he could just alter his appearance and strength via psychic powers.
I also have horrible visions of a psyker modifying their own DNA to remove the psyker gene by accident.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
S3 or S4?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafthór_Júlíus_Björnsson
He didn't change his DNA at all.
I have not doubt the Emperor could change his genetic make up, but what's the point if he could just alter his appearance and strength via psychic powers.
I also have horrible visions of a psyker modifying their own DNA to remove the psyker gene by accident.

I didn't understand your post at all. I'm not even sure if it was directed at me.

Sorry, the first part was a reply to your Biomancy statement that +1ing your strength involves DNA changes, and that the man I linked could be counted as S4 without altering his DNA.

The second and third part were just on record.

Alright let's try to move onto things. The original question is how does the emperor as a genefather for the spacemarines work, when he's not a geneticly engineered primarch and is, presumably, just a man.

David's proposed the theory that the Emperor with his vast psykic powers, not only could apper differnt, but could actually change his very make up.
It's an intreasting eneugh theory, although there is simply no evidance, eaither way, to support or deny it.

I'm gonna present a differnt theory. ok, we know that the Astartes project came after the Primarchs and the Emperor built on the Primarch project to acheive it. HOWEVER, I'm gonna guess that by time he had mastered it, Primarch genetic material, wasn't, strictly speaking, essential. he had pretty much perfected it. I'm gonna guess that following the 1st founding, the Emperor reached a point where he could make geneseed from scratch.

Essentially he didn't need to by the end, filter it through a Primarch (although that made it easier) he could make the stuff raw and "untainted", however as with the primarch project, this meant the basic "Starter cells" he used, where his own. cause he needed something to start with and hey... he had lots of toe nail clippings.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Primarchs' genetic code is likewise derived from the Emperor. They are, in effect, clones of him... simply structured so that each of the Primarchs embodies certain traits over others, mixed with a bit of Warp-stuff to make it work.

Yet we know he modified, added to, and deleted parts of their genome. While they are clones, they are very heavily modified clones, and I presume that's where the DNA for gene-seed came in.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Taking guises and psychically changing/masking his form doesn't neccesarily mean his DNA changed.

That's what I've understood as well. Magnus' DNA doesn't change instantaneously to reflect whatever shape he took I think either. I've only just viewed it as psychic powers.

 david choe wrote:

We know he took many guises (more than likely... over 1,000 identities) before his final guise as the Emperor... so he was very capable of changing his DNA.

That doesn't mean he had the ability to change his DNA, just his outward appearance. If he had this power, the Primarch Project would've been pointless, as he could just turn himself into Horus, Sanguinius etc in order and clone that DNA before changing into a new Primarch. A man who has his penis chopped off, inverted and turned into a vagina and given plastic boobs is still genetically a man, however much the lady doth protest.

I can't believe I just compared the Emperor to a transgender.

 Manchu wrote:
No worries -- let's all of us get back on-topic ...

... which is

 ChazSexington wrote:
So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

But I am not really sure why OP assumes the necessary genes are missing.

Because they are, according to Deliverance Lost.

 Psienesis wrote:
Among the many hats the Emperor wore, "Super-Scientist" was at least forty of them. Changing, splicing, creating, adding and subtracting genetic data from the human genome (and, possibly, that of other species) is certainly within his abilities, as we see in his Primarch Project, as well as the Thunder Warriors, the Custodes, and who-knows-how-many other manipulations of Mankind throughout future-history.

After all, the guy had nearly 40,000 years to study any sciences he damn well wanted to study... and when you're sitting on the ruins of Earth with nothing to do but butcher other techno-barbarians, you can get a whole lot of reading done.

1. if Chaos powers can "bless" or Mutant exist... and I think there is one psychic power in the game in biomancy that give you +1 T and +1 S to represent the change in your biology structure... I assume that during that period.. your DNA is changed too. I mean you are bigger and tougher.

This is a physiological change, not a genetic change. You can get bigger and tougher by working out regularly, but this doesn't change your genetic structure.

Precisely, I've always seen it as physiological change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Alright let's try to move onto things. The original question is how does the emperor as a genefather for the spacemarines work, when he's not a geneticly engineered primarch and is, presumably, just a man.

David's proposed the theory that the Emperor with his vast psykic powers, not only could apper differnt, but could actually change his very make up.
It's an intreasting eneugh theory, although there is simply no evidance, eaither way, to support or deny it.

I'm gonna present a differnt theory. ok, we know that the Astartes project came after the Primarchs and the Emperor built on the Primarch project to acheive it. HOWEVER, I'm gonna guess that by time he had mastered it, Primarch genetic material, wasn't, strictly speaking, essential. he had pretty much perfected it. I'm gonna guess that following the 1st founding, the Emperor reached a point where he could make geneseed from scratch.

Essentially he didn't need to by the end, filter it through a Primarch (although that made it easier) he could make the stuff raw and "untainted", however as with the primarch project, this meant the basic "Starter cells" he used, where his own. cause he needed something to start with and hey... he had lots of toe nail clippings.

I definitely assumed he can make gene-seed from scratch; it seems somewhat trivial after the Primarch Project. Either way, he did make Grey Knights from supposedly his own DNA. Essentially, did the DNA for the gene-seed (for the non-human organs) derive mainly from non-Emperor DNA, or elsewhere? Because making an extra heart or lung is no problem, but Betcher's gland and the omophagea seem impossible unless you take the existing genes and modify them to such an extent they're virtually unrecognisable as of human origin, thus taking them so far away from the Emperor's genetic template they might as well be made from scratch.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 david choe wrote:

We know he took many guises (more than likely... over 1,000 identities) before his final guise as the Emperor... so he was very capable of changing his DNA.

That doesn't mean he had the ability to change his DNA, just his outward appearance. If he had this power, the Primarch Project would've been pointless, as he could just turn himself into Horus, Sanguinius etc in order and clone that DNA before changing into a new Primarch. A man who has his penis chopped off, inverted and turned into a vagina and given plastic boobs is still genetically a man, however much the lady doth protest.

I can't believe I just compared the Emperor to a transgender.

It doesn't mean he didn't had this ability also.

The Primarch project was not pointless. He needed the "mother" to keep making the seeds for those legions and most important of all, he need their leadership. He wanted his sons as his generals.

LOL, the plastic boobs is not the same as real boob that the New Man or the Emperor can create.

Remember he was the smartest human and the most power psyker in the galaxy... I think he can change DNA.

I guess ... lets look at one of Emperor muscle cell that carry his DNA... when that muscle cell transformed into a larger muscle cell or smaller (whatever he was transforming into) ... the Nucleolus, the cell membrane , the mitochondria, etc... must changed too... why not the DNA inside those as well. I don't get why the fantasy of this psychic power or "magic" has to stop at the micro cells level, but not smaller to the DNA level. It's all Sci-fi magic did it to me.

Chaz raised a good point there though, if the Emperor could change his DNA, then the fact that he has missing genes required for his Primarch project wouldn't have been an issue. He didn't mean the Primarch project was pointless in that way, he meant there was no need for all the genetic tinkering the Emperor did in his labs, as he could've just changed his DNA into what he wanted and then cloned that, as opposed to spending years in his labs under Terra working on the genetics for the Primarchs.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Chaz raised a good point there though, if the Emperor could change his DNA, then the fact that he has missing genes required for his Primarch project wouldn't have been an issue. He didn't mean the Primarch project was pointless in that way, he meant there was no need for all the genetic tinkering the Emperor did in his labs, as he could've just changed his DNA into what he wanted and then cloned that, as opposed to spending years in his labs under Terra working on the genetics for the Primarchs.

How do we know that "tinkering" in the lab isn't using his psychic power to change DNA? Maybe he did just that, he cloned a stem cell of his.. .then using psychic to change the DNA in the cell to make the Primarchs or the start of GreyKnight seeds. May be he didn't need to morph into Horus to get Horus DNA. All he needed to do was get one of his hair and modify the DNA of his hair and make Horus from there. I don't think we have the details of what he was doing in the lab. I just think that he was so powerful that this DNA thing was not a big issue. I think even man in the future can manipulate DNA as little as under 1,000 years because of the Genome Project. Soon we can identified inferior DNA and modified people (as unethical as that sound)... Gattaca movie comes to mind.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
No worries -- let's all of us get back on-topic ...

... which is

 ChazSexington wrote:
So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

But I am not really sure why OP assumes the necessary genes are missing.

Because they are, according to Deliverance Lost.

I took it that they were missing intentionally and not provided by the Emperor. The Emperor only gave Corax enough know how so that he could rebuild his chapter, not go and create brand new Legions. Will have to go and dig out Deliverance Lost .... Thanks Chaz!

 david choe wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Chaz raised a good point there though, if the Emperor could change his DNA, then the fact that he has missing genes required for his Primarch project wouldn't have been an issue. He didn't mean the Primarch project was pointless in that way, he meant there was no need for all the genetic tinkering the Emperor did in his labs, as he could've just changed his DNA into what he wanted and then cloned that, as opposed to spending years in his labs under Terra working on the genetics for the Primarchs.

How do we know that "tinkering" in the lab isn't using his psychic power to change DNA? Maybe he did just that, he cloned a stem cell of his.. .then using psychic to change the DNA in the cell to make the Primarchs or the start of GreyKnight seeds. May be he didn't need to morph into Horus to get Horus DNA. All he needed to do was get one of his hair and modify the DNA of his hair and make Horus from there. I don't think we have the details of what he was doing in the lab. I just think that he was so powerful that this DNA thing was not a big issue. I think even man in the future can manipulate DNA as little as under 1,000 years because of the Genome Project. Soon we can identified inferior DNA and modified people (as unethical as that sound)... Gattaca movie comes to mind.

Because that's changing the fluff to suit the idea. I could say the human scientists were really Eldar Banshee cheerleaders, cheering for the Emperor's psychic powers, as well, but that's changing the established fluff, which imho we don't have the authority to do.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


I took it that they were missing intentionally and not provided by the Emperor. The Emperor only gave Corax enough know how so that he could rebuild his chapter, not go and create brand new Legions. Will have to go and dig out Deliverance Lost .... Thanks Chaz!

Sorry about being a bit terse there, btw! Did not mean to! It was just late and I was trying to reply to all the posts

Headcanon warning, but somebody might find it interesting. I'll start by quoting myself (comments on these old posts in red).


From a thread discussing why the Primarchs have yet to be cloned:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I think the logic is the same as a Space Marine - their DNA is fundamentally human and their superhuman abilities come from modifications thereafter. Just because it's biotechnology doesn't mean that their DNA has to be specifically altered, in the same sense that a cyborg's DNA is not.

I think perhaps that it wasn't so simple as genetically engineering them and that The Emperor only altered their DNA so far as to make them receptive to the processes and implants that would follow.

Also, without sorcery to move souls around, cloning is not resurrection. It is possible that the clones of Horus were crazy because they were attempting to implant Horus' actual soul into cloned bodies and failed, but it's also possible that that engineered DNA (the "base" of a Primarch, so to speak) doesn't result in anything that could be considered a normal human. And certainly not a Primarch or Horus himself.

 Psienesis wrote:
There is also the fact that what the Primarchs were... that is, the people that we know them as... were products of the various planets they were tossed to as infants. We don't have any "blank slate" Primarchs, so it is impossible to determine how much of what they were was Nature versus how much of them was Nurture.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It's not impossible. Most of the stuff that their homes changed is cosmetic - skin, hair, eye colour - and their personalities. We know that The Emperor created them to be big and strong.

By "base", I mean that The Emperor designed and engineered an altered human genome. These altered humans yes, even before they were "born" would then be subjected to a number of procedures (if we assume they are like Space Marines, which is logical, then this would involve a great deal of artificial organ implantation) that would endow them with the ability to grow as big and strong as he wanted. So a Primarch would be created by implanting the "blank" superhuman with superior versions of Space Marine organs, causing them to grow into the Primarchs we know.

This is really the only suitable explanation as to why you can't just clone a Primarch. If The Emperor engineered their DNA just to be Primarchs, then cloning them would be easy. Even assuming that Primarchs have all these Warp-powers doesn't make sense, because he would have to have engineered that in the beginning (we know that Warp-power can be genetic, as there have been multiple instances of xenos with natural Warp powers). If The Emperor created "Primarch DNA", it would be a simple matter of just copying his work.

As for The Emperor's own DNA, well, I have a few things to say on that. First and foremost, changing your physical appearance by means of magic is no way related to changing your DNA. DNA codes for the transcription of amino acids. If, instead of shapeshifting outright, The Emperor were to alter the DNA of every cell in his body, he wouldn't change because that's just not how it works. He would need to revert himself to a single (altered) zygote, then use magic to fast-grow that one cell into a complete body again. Why would he do that, even if capable? He's clearly capable of massive feats of psychic ability. Altering his physical shape by means of Warp power seems trivial in comparison, and far more effective than altering his DNA. He is also not omniscient. DNA is extraordinarily complex. While The Emperor may be able to perfectly imagine a physical form of his choosing and then actualise it with psychic power, knowing the exact genetic structure of the form he wishes to take implies, well, omniscience, unless he can only take the shape of other people by sampling then rapidly copying their DNA like The Thing.

Before I go on, I need to mention another element of my headcanon, which explains a number of things. The Warp is able to alter the laws of physics. The more the Warp is used to "push" against reality, the more it "pushes" back. For example, one of the most basic things in physics is that you can't spontaneously generate anything. With the Warp, you can - a psyker can shoot a 5GJ lightning bolt from their face. The amount of psychic power needed to alter reality is directly proportional to the level to which reality is being altered; firing a 1GJ lightning bolt from your face requires approximately 1/5 of firing a 5GJ. Other factors, such as controlling the arc of this spontaneously generated energy, require yet more Warp-power. This is why Ork technology does function to a certain extent, and why Daemons have flesh-and-blood bodies; both of these rely on Warp power to fiddle with reality to make them work. Using the Waaagh to make an almost-functional device function takes far less power than, say, a Boy picking up a solid piece of metal and it performing exactly like a Shoota. For Daemons, manifesting into a physical form requires them to expend far less of their precious power in merely existing in the Materium at all. A Bloodthirster has wings which it must flap in order to fly, even though they couldn't possibly lift it. With the addition of their Warp power, those wingflaps are suddenly capable of lifting them - much less Warp-energy is expended than by simply defying gravity outright like Superman. So, finally, on to why this is relevant.

I believe that the "Warp knowledge" part was in manufacturing, or at least altering (assuming that souls manifest automatically), their souls. The genetics part was a purely scientific endeavour, but physical form was not the only factor in creating what were essentially miniature versions of himself. He couldn't just make more Emperors, even if he wanted to; he'd need 1000 Shamans in ritual suicide for that. Instead, he used science to create a superhuman framework that was explicitly designed for two things - to be bonded with a special soul (giving them power beyond their physical form), and to produce gene-seed through which specific artificial organs could be cultivated for the purpose of creating Space Marines (who are, like Dark Eldar, not genetically modified).

To what actual purpose he used his own DNA is uncertain. How The Emperor's unmodified DNA would express itself naturally, without any psychic powers involved, is also uncertain. What we do know is that he used his DNA to create the Primarchs. That doesn't mean he merely scraped off a few DNA samples and grew babies from them, however. Just because his DNA was the starting point doesn't mean that, after all manner of alterations through technology, it was recognisable as his DNA any more. It certainly seems logical that he did it for physical attributes alone, simply because he is a big, strong guy and so are all the Primarchs, but there are a number of reasons it has to be something else (see above). Perhaps it was because his genes were inherently tied to his psychic power, that his unique physiological composition is what allowed his unique psychic ability to remain tied to his body, and that the special souls of his sons would be far easier to bind to a physical form based on his own.

That's why it's relevant to Grey Knights. Like with the Primarchs, using his own DNA to create their gene-seed has some effect on their relationship with the Warp. Of course the Primarchs weren't incorruptible, but Grey Knights, being born human and augmented into an Astartes, don't have special souls like the Primarchs did. I think it likely that, somehow, the augmentations that create a Space Marine are capable (and designed as such) of producing a sort of empathic effect between an Astartes and his Primarch (explaining the Black Rage). If such a trait exists, then it seems most likely that this was meant to further the purpose of a Primarch as a commander. If such a thing were established between an Astartes and The Emperor, instead, it could explain their "purity" and their various unique psychic powers along that theme (although these would be integrated into their design and not just a side-effect of bearing "Emperor gene-seed").

Finally, in line with what I said about The Emperor's genetics and how they (don't) relate to his physiology, I don't think that the Grey Knights are physically superior to other Marines due to The Emperor being their "Primarch". Rather, I think it is because he designed them to be that way; individually superior but harder to produce, just like the Custodes. So while the average Space Marine is inferior to a Grey Knight or Custodian, the Legions (at least in the design plan) are a superior force due to their numeracy. It's kind of like the difference between the Space Marines and the Imperial Guard, though on a much smaller scale.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


I took it that they were missing intentionally and not provided by the Emperor. The Emperor only gave Corax enough know how so that he could rebuild his chapter, not go and create brand new Legions. Will have to go and dig out Deliverance Lost .... Thanks Chaz!

Sorry about being a bit terse there, btw! Did not mean to! It was just late and I was trying to reply to all the posts

No need to apologise, I was just complaining that I would have to go and revisit Deliverance Lost. So actually, an apologise is necessary thinking about it again.

It should be pointed out that if you're going with Shaman origin Emperor then he had special DNA from the get go. His true sons, the Sensei, inherited it from him and they were even said to be the genetic counterparts to the Space Marines in many ways.

So, we're all still just going off the Emperor being the progenitor for the Grey Knights?

We're just going to drink the koolaid and be done with it?

Since that's what the GK Codex flat-out says, yeah. Any other version is "head-canon". You're free to make up whatever origin story you like for them (and any other aspect of 40K), but that's the official version of the story.

That wasn't the end all to me, that was the reported "koolaid" fluff that's simply always been around with absolutely nothing to back it up.

You can discredit the absolutely reasonable suspicion that it's bunk, but it does nothing to make the argument for the Emperor being the official progenitor for the GK any more credible.

Ok.

 Shidank wrote:
That wasn't the end all to me, that was the reported "koolaid" fluff that's simply always been around with absolutely nothing to back it up.

You can discredit the absolutely reasonable suspicion that it's bunk, but it does nothing to make the argument for the Emperor being the official progenitor for the GK any more credible.

Don't you know by now that if it is in print.. you get to not think.

There has been some of the stupidest fluff in print that will make you go ....

My favorite is "Nurgle is the creator of ALL THE PLAGUES IN THE UNIVERSE"...note.. not Galaxy.. but the UNIVERSE!

There is nothing you can do to argue against GW bible thumping fanbois... because they will get you with the ...if it is in print.

GW bible thumping has a place. It's important to reign in the crazy, but if you thump too hard and refuse to build on the foundations the universe has given you, you're just being obstinate.

You're not attempting to build on it, you're attempting to re-write it. That makes it your personal view of the setting, which is fine, but there's nothing to debate there. It's how you view it, but not how I view it. Neither of us are wrong, but there's nothing to debate on the topic.

Kind of renders the corrective stabs in threads more unnecessary and snide than helpful, if that's your genuine view.

Still, I suppose it takes all sorts to put together a universe as large and comprehensive as 40k. That will have to include the fanbase. The fluff writers aren't immortal and their legacy is only as permanent as those who fill their seats will let it be.

you may not like the "emperor is the father of the GKs" but it's pretty clearly spelled out in multiple sources. Honestly at this point given how little we know of how geneseed was made from the primarchs, we honestly don't know how possiable or not that is.

True enough!

Given the time it would have taken, I suppose we could consider that the Emperor founded a small chapter's worth of geneseed and had it in cold storage long before the Heresy began. It smacks of stuffing the pillow to say so.

 Shidank wrote:
That wasn't the end all to me, that was the reported "koolaid" fluff that's simply always been around with absolutely nothing to back it up.

You can discredit the absolutely reasonable suspicion that it's bunk, but it does nothing to make the argument for the Emperor being the official progenitor for the GK any more credible.

Well, I think that Sanguinius is the progenitor of the Salamanders, and a secret Tyranid. If you disagree, you're being an "obstinate GW bible-thumper".

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
That wasn't the end all to me, that was the reported "koolaid" fluff that's simply always been around with absolutely nothing to back it up.

You can discredit the absolutely reasonable suspicion that it's bunk, but it does nothing to make the argument for the Emperor being the official progenitor for the GK any more credible.

Well, I think that Sanguinius is the progenitor of the Salamanders, and a secret Tyranid. If you disagree, you're being an "obstinate GW bible-thumper".

Actually, friend, you seem to be more of a snide and thread-wasting troll! Tough mistake to make so early in the week, but you'll bounce back. I believe in you, lil guy!

I quoted your own words, so are you calling yourself a troll, or are you just in the habit of discrediting absolutely everything different without any kind of reasonable discussion?

Seems like the latter, seeing how you called Psiensis "snide" as well, and referred to disagreeing with you as "just drinking the koolaid" and stated that your belief is "absolutely reasonable" while the Codex statement "does nothing to make it more credible".

In short, you're saying "agree with me or you're just being an obstinate GW Bible-thumper and a troll".

Oh, I'm sorry but I won't be feeding the troll today. Please find somewhere else to try and flame things up.

Ignoring the last couple of irrelevant posts by Frozen, what would the timeline be for the Emperor to have created genestock before the Heresy? Was the original purpose even for the Grey Knights? Were the webway project to be successful, he wouldn't have needed a unit LIKE the Grey Knights, so what would he have made them for?

I'm confused here, because Frozen Ocean has a point. I mean the codex literally States that the Emperor is the progenitor for the GK, if you're just gonna ignore that 'because following it is being an obstinate GW bible-thumper', then Sanguinius could be a secret Tyranid, if we're just ignoring what's written.

Fair enough if you don't like a bit of fluff, but if it's written in a codex, it's correct, and anything you say otherwise is headcanon. Nothing wrong with headcanon, but that's exactly what it is.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm confused here, because Frozen Ocean has a point. I mean the codex literally States that the Emperor is the progenitor for the GK, if you're just gonna ignore that 'because following it is being an obstinate GW bible-thumper', then Sanguinius could be a secret Tyranid, if we're just ignoring what's written.

Fair enough if you don't like a bit of fluff, but if it's written in a codex, it's correct, and anything you say otherwise is headcanon. Nothing wrong with headcanon, but that's exactly what it is.

I think going back through every post and requoting the progression of the discussion would be both moot(since anyone is welcome to go back and read for themselves) and derail the thread even more than Frozen or Psi.

Now! Let's look at this like the functional alcoholic adults that we are, eh?

The Emperor can't have made the Grey Knights after the heresy: Reasonable to assume
The Emperor would have had to create this magically convenient stock of geneseed before or during the heresy(can't be much during since he spent most of that battling under the Golden Throne): Extremely reasonable to assume
The Emperor created this geneseed for a purpose other than Grey Knights: Probable in that he would likely have started this project with the webway still under construction and wouldn't have considered such a chapter necessary.
The Emperor likely created them for one of two reasons; Security within the webway/backup plan if the webway failed: While this is feasible, I wouldn't say the Emperor proved to be very great at backup plans.

This plot armor some people are having trouble burrowing through is the blanket statement "made from the Emperor" when, loosely, that same quote can be applied to any marine descendant from a Primarch. The statement is not specific, it is(honestly I'm not being unreasonable here) extremely ambiguous.


To get this thread back on track, let's move forward from here unless someone has something altogether different they would like to contribute. I think the derail can be considered done now unless someone feels the need to continue. In that event, I invite you to PM me rather than spam the thread.

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm confused here, because Frozen Ocean has a point. I mean the codex literally States that the Emperor is the progenitor for the GK, if you're just gonna ignore that 'because following it is being an obstinate GW bible-thumper', then Sanguinius could be a secret Tyranid, if we're just ignoring what's written.

Fair enough if you don't like a bit of fluff, but if it's written in a codex, it's correct, and anything you say otherwise is headcanon. Nothing wrong with headcanon, but that's exactly what it is.

I think going back through every post and requoting the progression of the discussion would be both moot(since anyone is welcome to go back and read for themselves) and derail the thread even more than Frozen or Psi.

Now! Let's look at this like the functional alcoholic adults that we are, eh?

The Emperor can't have made the Grey Knights after the heresy: Reasonable to assume
The Emperor would have had to create this magically convenient stock of geneseed before or during the heresy(can't be much during since he spent most of that battling under the Golden Throne): Extremely reasonable to assume
The Emperor created this geneseed for a purpose other than Grey Knights: Probable in that he would likely have started this project with the webway still under construction and wouldn't have considered such a chapter necessary.
The Emperor likely created them for one of two reasons; Security within the webway/backup plan if the webway failed: While this is feasible, I wouldn't say the Emperor proved to be very great at backup plans.

This plot armor some people are having trouble burrowing through is the blanket statement "made from the Emperor" when, loosely, that same quote can be applied to any marine descendant from a Primarch. The statement is not specific, it is(honestly I'm not being unreasonable here) extremely ambiguous.


To get this thread back on track, let's move forward from here unless someone has something altogether different they would like to contribute. I think the derail can be considered done now unless someone feels the need to continue. In that event, I invite you to PM me rather than spam the thread.

However, your theories are all trumped by the Grey Knights Codex though. Sure, your own fluff, no problem, it's in your head, but it's not relevant here. We have to assume the fluff isn't 100% wrong.

I understand your frustration if you're refusing to read, but tell me specifically what it says to counter the 4 points in the post you quoted. PM me if you like or post it here if you're bringing in new knowledge we can all benefit from.

***Also, it really seems like you aren't reading my posts. I'll ask that you do so, please. Helps with communication and all that.

 Shidank wrote:
I understand your frustration if you're refusing to read, but tell me specifically what it says to counter the 4 points in the post you quoted. PM me if you like or post it here if you're bringing in new knowledge we can all benefit from.

***Also, it really seems like you aren't reading my posts. I'll ask that you do so, please. Helps with communication and all that.

It's not new, it's stated in the codex

Lol alright, well if you're just stating "it's in the codex" and not replying to posts, I think we can call that matter concluded and move on.


New point that you may sink your teeth into?

Assuming the Emperor began work on the Grey Knights(or at least a chapter's strength inventory of unique geneseed) before the Heresy, what could that purpose have been?

I guess what I'm asking is, with the Emperor assuming the webway would be a success and that daemonic incursion in the Imperium would be relegated to a minor matter, what was the original purpose of the Grey Knights? What was the geneseed for?

could be the emperor foresaw a need for a unique dedicated force to clear the webway. which we know has deamons infesting it.

it's also possiable the Grey Knight Geneseed is simply "pure" stuff that hasn't had a Primarchs DNA mated to it, and it was just back up in case any legion suddenly suffered a disaster and needed to recover quickly. we've had a few cases of this in the great crusade timeline already, I could see the Emperor deciding that he needs some sort of "easily useable back up"

I like the blank slate idea! That there could even exist a stock of universally compatible geneseed on Terra opens a lot of doors for thought.

 Shidank wrote:
I like the blank slate idea! That there could even exist a stock of universally compatible geneseed on Terra opens a lot of doors for thought.

well I imagine it's all been repurposed for the Grey Knights. still. it certinly puts some pespective on the amount of geneseed they have. it's presumably a "Legion's worth of geneseed" so we figure 100,000 to 200,000.

which is eneugh to last the GKs a looong time

So as far as the Emperor laying claim to the GKs, could it be he took that blank template and mashed his magic thumb on it (in a manner of speaking) and called it good?

Could they feasibly support the creation of new geneseed or would the lack of new material from the Emperor have shut that down long ago?

 Shidank wrote:
So as far as the Emperor laying claim to the GKs, could it be he took that blank template and mashed his magic thumb on it (in a manner of speaking) and called it good?

Could they feasibly support the creation of new geneseed or would the lack of new material from the Emperor have shut that down long ago?

far as we know only the emperor had the knowledge to create the stuff. it's possiable I suppose. if I was gonna lay money on anyone individual figuring out how to, it'd be Fabius Bile

 Shidank wrote:

I guess what I'm asking is, with the Emperor assuming the webway would be a success and that daemonic incursion in the Imperium would be relegated to a minor matter, what was the original purpose of the Grey Knights? What was the geneseed for?

Nobody knows.

Possibly they were meant to be a legion for him to lead into the Webway and clear it out. Maybe even take over the Black Library, destroy Cegorach and the Harliquins, and eliminate the Eldar.

Hell maybe he stockpiled the stuff in advance with the idea of maybe, eventually, giving Ormegon his own Legion

 Shidank wrote:
Lol alright, well if you're just stating "it's in the codex" and not replying to posts, I think we can call that matter concluded and move on.


New point that you may sink your teeth into?

Assuming the Emperor began work on the Grey Knights(or at least a chapter's strength inventory of unique geneseed) before the Heresy, what could that purpose have been?

I guess what I'm asking is, with the Emperor assuming the webway would be a success and that daemonic incursion in the Imperium would be relegated to a minor matter, what was the original purpose of the Grey Knights? What was the geneseed for?

That's also in the GK codex, actually.

In his infinite wisdom the Emperor foresaw that even should he prevail against Horus the threat of Chaos would remain. He knew that of all the Imperium’s many foes, the daemonic was the greatest threat, and so he created a brotherhood of incorruptible warriors to fight Daemons. These were the Grey Knights, and they would stand as the Emperor’s ultimate weapon against the Gods of Chaos.

[...]

The Grey Knights were born in the final bloody days of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor knew that the time was coming when he would have to face his traitorous son Horus and that he might well not survive. However, he foresaw that, even if Horus and his armies were defeated, the power of Chaos would remain a constant threat to Humanity. His greatest warriors, the Space Marines, had proven fallible to the temptations of the Dark Gods and so the Emperor set out to create a new soldier in his bid to protect Mankind. This new breed of Space Marine would be stronger of will than his brothers, and unwavering in his loyalty to Humanity, able to stand naked before the power of the Warp and survive unscathed.

Essentially, they were nothing more than Plan B.

 Shidank wrote:
I understand your frustration if you're refusing to read, but tell me specifically what it says to counter the 4 points in the post you quoted. PM me if you like or post it here if you're bringing in new knowledge we can all benefit from.

***Also, it really seems like you aren't reading my posts. I'll ask that you do so, please. Helps with communication and all that.

At best, it is your headcanon and at worst, you discover plot holes or broken fluff.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Lol alright, well if you're just stating "it's in the codex" and not replying to posts, I think we can call that matter concluded and move on.


New point that you may sink your teeth into?

Assuming the Emperor began work on the Grey Knights(or at least a chapter's strength inventory of unique geneseed) before the Heresy, what could that purpose have been?

I guess what I'm asking is, with the Emperor assuming the webway would be a success and that daemonic incursion in the Imperium would be relegated to a minor matter, what was the original purpose of the Grey Knights? What was the geneseed for?

That's also in the GK codex, actually.

In his infinite wisdom the Emperor foresaw that even should he prevail against Horus the threat of Chaos would remain. He knew that of all the Imperium’s many foes, the daemonic was the greatest threat, and so he created a brotherhood of incorruptible warriors to fight Daemons. These were the Grey Knights, and they would stand as the Emperor’s ultimate weapon against the Gods of Chaos.

[...]

The Grey Knights were born in the final bloody days of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor knew that the time was coming when he would have to face his traitorous son Horus and that he might well not survive. However, he foresaw that, even if Horus and his armies were defeated, the power of Chaos would remain a constant threat to Humanity. His greatest warriors, the Space Marines, had proven fallible to the temptations of the Dark Gods and so the Emperor set out to create a new soldier in his bid to protect Mankind. This new breed of Space Marine would be stronger of will than his brothers, and unwavering in his loyalty to Humanity, able to stand naked before the power of the Warp and survive unscathed.

Essentially, they were nothing more than Plan B.

My beef with this is the timeline. It's the equivalent of saying Obama defeated the Nazis. It doesn't play. That it's written specifically to look like propaganda means GW may have(for once) trusted us to be more clever than we're acting here. He would have created the geneseed long before the "bloody days" of the Horus Heresy. That he repurposed it is not in question. The original purpose is.

 Shidank wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Lol alright, well if you're just stating "it's in the codex" and not replying to posts, I think we can call that matter concluded and move on.


New point that you may sink your teeth into?

Assuming the Emperor began work on the Grey Knights(or at least a chapter's strength inventory of unique geneseed) before the Heresy, what could that purpose have been?

I guess what I'm asking is, with the Emperor assuming the webway would be a success and that daemonic incursion in the Imperium would be relegated to a minor matter, what was the original purpose of the Grey Knights? What was the geneseed for?

That's also in the GK codex, actually.

In his infinite wisdom the Emperor foresaw that even should he prevail against Horus the threat of Chaos would remain. He knew that of all the Imperium’s many foes, the daemonic was the greatest threat, and so he created a brotherhood of incorruptible warriors to fight Daemons. These were the Grey Knights, and they would stand as the Emperor’s ultimate weapon against the Gods of Chaos.

[...]

The Grey Knights were born in the final bloody days of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor knew that the time was coming when he would have to face his traitorous son Horus and that he might well not survive. However, he foresaw that, even if Horus and his armies were defeated, the power of Chaos would remain a constant threat to Humanity. His greatest warriors, the Space Marines, had proven fallible to the temptations of the Dark Gods and so the Emperor set out to create a new soldier in his bid to protect Mankind. This new breed of Space Marine would be stronger of will than his brothers, and unwavering in his loyalty to Humanity, able to stand naked before the power of the Warp and survive unscathed.

Essentially, they were nothing more than Plan B.

My beef with this is the timeline. It's the equivalent of saying Obama defeated the Nazis. It doesn't play. That it's written specifically to look like propaganda means GW may have(for once) trusted us to be more clever than we're acting here. He would have created the geneseed long before the "bloody days" of the Horus Heresy. That he repurposed it is not in question. The original purpose is.

Well, the Codex does state they were created when the Emprah foresaw he might die to Horus, but still prevail, so he started it after that. The Horus Heresy lasted about 7 years, so maybe a total of 6 years devoted to readying the stores and recruits. With the vast resources at his disposal I'm pretty sure the Emprah was capable of rounding up thousands of recruits and readying the gene-seed for Malcador. It's a rush, but it's possible.

He did this while fighting under the Golden Throne? I wasn't aware he stepped out of that hellhole unless it was absolutely necessary. Still, if you're wanting to read the fluff as a bible and not as faux propaganda, I can't stop you.

We'll just picture a mini-emprah...

Just...working his little golden bottom off producing a stock of utterly unique and stable geneseed with only his genetic marker on it.

 Shidank wrote:
He did this while fighting under the Golden Throne? I wasn't aware he stepped out of that hellhole unless it was absolutely necessary. Still, if you're wanting to read the fluff as a bible and not as faux propaganda, I can't stop you.

We'll just picture a mini-emprah...

Just...working his little golden bottom off producing a stock of utterly unique and stable geneseed with only his genetic marker on it.

Well, excuse me for adhering to the Codex Grey Knights

Lol sorry, sorry

I write and that just stuck out as an intentionally vague statement that falls apart under any scrutiny. It's fairly obvious that the GK were intended to have a fair amount of intrigue, their genetic source being one of them.

Their geneseed origin is actually the least vague thing about them.

The 2 previous codices have heavily implied they were created directly from the Emperor and the most recent Codex just flat out says it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Their geneseed origin is actually the least vague thing about them.

The 2 previous codices have heavily implied they were created directly from the Emperor and the most recent Codex just flat out says it.

I was very tempted to do a "hurr durr" but as this isn't YouTube, I'll just advise you backtrack and catch up.

I've been following everything. You're just flat out refusing to acknowledge what the codex says.

I'm pointing out legitimate holes in it and you're covering them up with handwavium plot armor.

I may be tenacious, but you're being a bit obstinate.

I'll tell you what, since I don't need this degenerating into a p***ing match, I'll make some points and you make counterpoints. Sound good?

1. Made from the Emperor: So are all Marines. The Geneseed that regulates the SM implants is of the Emperor's genetic stock. Even if it wasn't, every Primarch is his genetic son and has imprinted their DNA on the geneseed of the marines that followed. This is a worthless statement.
2. Were made as a plan B: Well, since the geneseed stock would have needed to have been made before Magnus broke the webway, no. I argue that this stock had an entirely different purpose and it was changed in the aftermath of the HH to fit the immediate need.

There. Now we can begin a formal discussion.

What legitimate holes?

There is plenty of time for the Emperor to make a new geneseed store prior to the Heresy. The GKs were obviously repurposed what whatever the original idea was, but whatever it was they were intended to fight daemons.

They were made from the Emperor directly, that isn't debatable. The only thing up for debate is what the original purpose may have been.

You are the one being obstinate in refusing to accept their geneseed was directly from the Emperor.

 Shidank wrote:
I'm pointing out legitimate holes in it and you're covering them up with handwavium plot armor.

I may be tenacious, but you're being a bit obstinate.

I'll tell you what, since I don't need this degenerating into a p***ing match, I'll make some points and you make counterpoints. Sound good?

1. Made from the Emperor: So are all Marines. The Geneseed that regulates the SM implants is of the Emperor's genetic stock. Even if it wasn't, every Primarch is his genetic son and has imprinted their DNA on the geneseed of the marines that followed. This is a worthless statement.
2. Were made as a plan B: Well, since the geneseed stock would have needed to have been made before Magnus broke the webway, no. I argue that this stock had an entirely different purpose and it was changed in the aftermath of the HH to fit the immediate need.

There. Now we can begin a formal discussion.

Sorry, looks as if this edit hit after your post. Otherwise, you probably wouldn't lead your argument with the emperor bit.

ImAGeek wrote:He's just projecting a psychic mask over himself, why does that need to change his DNA? If I put a mask on, my DNA doesn't chnage does it?

You can express a theory all you want. That's not what you're doing. You're saying other people are wrong (usually when they have evidence) because it goes against your opinion. It's a two way street my friend.

Grimskul wrote:@david choe

Please stop trying to de-rail threads with your unfounded circular logic about the Emperor's nature and your weird obsession (and misinterpretation) of guises. You've already ruined multiple threads, don't spread it here as well.

I'm sorry, I understand that you guys said this a week ago, but you're pissing me the feth off. He is stating his opinion and supporting his argument with logic. He is doing nothing wrong and is arguing why he believes the Grey Knights have the Emperor's Gene-seed. You are immediately assuming that he is attacking you and de-railing the thread like you do in every thread where somebody disagrees with you. I am calmly asking you to accept the fact that your opinion is not the ultimate source of wisdom and knowledge and everybody else is wrong because reasons. Now, here is the evidence that David Choe is correct:

1.) The Emperor is a powerful Warp entity composed of thousands of Psykers (ultra-powerful), and Warp entities have changed DNA in the pass (see: anything written about Chaos in the history of ever), so why should the Emperor not be able to do so?

2.) The Emperor's Warp power is at least the equivalent of the physical power of a C'tan, who is literally a star god. If the Emperor has at least as much power as a Star God, would he not have the power to change his DNA at will, like any other Warp Entity? (see: Mechanicum)

3.) You're being ignorant, please cease to do so, argue your point, provide evidence, give citations, support your argument with fluff or don't argue it at all.

1) Geneseed itself is not directly from the Emperor, but it was made using his genetics as a base. He doesn't have geneseed(which refers to the implants all marines receive) itself as that is totally artificial. The rest of their genetics are from him. It means he took his own DNA, then altered it and made the geneseed. Instead of taking his DNA, altering it into a Primarch, and then altering that Primarch's DNA into geneseed. Its only one step of alteration.

Unlike every other space marine, Grey Knights don't have a Primarch step separating them from the Emperor. This makes their connection far more pure as even that single generation, and the obvious tinkering and customization each primarch underwent to make them unique, will experience degradation.

2) Thats not in contention. They were obviously meant to do something else, but that got changed when the Heresy happened.

 dusara217 wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:He's just projecting a psychic mask over himself, why does that need to change his DNA? If I put a mask on, my DNA doesn't chnage does it?

You can express a theory all you want. That's not what you're doing. You're saying other people are wrong (usually when they have evidence) because it goes against your opinion. It's a two way street my friend.

Grimskul wrote:@david choe

Please stop trying to de-rail threads with your unfounded circular logic about the Emperor's nature and your weird obsession (and misinterpretation) of guises. You've already ruined multiple threads, don't spread it here as well.

I'm sorry, I understand that you guys said this a week ago, but you're pissing me the feth off. He is stating his opinion and supporting his argument with logic. He is doing nothing wrong and is arguing why he believes the Grey Knights have the Emperor's Gene-seed. You are immediately assuming that he is attacking you and de-railing the thread like you do in every thread where somebody disagrees with you. I am calmly asking you to accept the fact that your opinion is not the ultimate source of wisdom and knowledge and everybody else is wrong because reasons. Now, here is the evidence that David Choe is correct:

1.) The Emperor is a powerful Warp entity composed of thousands of Psykers (ultra-powerful), and Warp entities have changed DNA in the pass (see: anything written about Chaos in the history of ever), so why should the Emperor not be able to do so?

2.) The Emperor's Warp power is at least the equivalent of the physical power of a C'tan, who is literally a star god. If the Emperor has at least as much power as a Star God, would he not have the power to change his DNA at will, like any other Warp Entity? (see: Mechanicum)

3.) You're being ignorant, please cease to do so, argue your point, provide evidence, give citations, support your argument with fluff or don't argue it at all.

Completely unnecessary. Point to where my logic has flaws. Stop being antagonistic and have a discussion. All I'm hearing is one sentence repeated in a codex written to appear like propaganda. Stop acting as if your entire hobby is being assailed and engage in a dialogue speculating a subject that is ONLY speculation at its very core, as it is fiction.

To be more succinct: Calm down and engage me as an adult, please.

Why are you telling me to cease doing something like a week and a half at least after I ceased doing so... What was the point in dragging up something that's done and forgotten about.

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) Geneseed itself is not directly from the Emperor, but it was made using his genetics as a base. He doesn't have geneseed(which refers to the implants all marines receive) itself as that is totally artificial. The rest of their genetics are from him. It means he took his own DNA, then altered it and made the geneseed. Instead of taking his DNA, altering it into a Primarch, and then altering that Primarch's DNA into geneseed. Its only one step of alteration.

Unlike every other space marine, Grey Knights don't have a Primarch step separating them from the Emperor. This makes their connection far more pure as even that single generation, and the obvious tinkering and customization each primarch underwent to make them unique, will experience degradation.

2) Thats not in contention. They were obviously meant to do something else, but that got changed when the Heresy happened.

Thank you for being literally the first person to actually address that second point. I had all but abandoned trying to spark speculation on the geneseed and had moved on to purpose when you came cannon-balling back in with the codex quotes.


At any rate, this thread would serve better if it were closed.

Completely unnecessary. Point to where my logic has flaws. Stop being antagonistic and have a discussion. All I'm hearing is one sentence repeated in a codex written to appear like propaganda. Stop acting as if your entire hobby is being assailed and engage in a dialogue speculating a subject that is ONLY speculation at its very core, as it is fiction.

Arguing head-canon is a fruitless endeavor.

The Emperor had plenty of time during the Heresy (and before it) to undertake this project. He wasn't in the Web-way fighting Daemons (that's what his Custodes were doing), he had retired to his laboratories on Terra after naming Horus the Warmaster. What was he doing in those labs? We don't know... probably this, building Geneseed v4.

Unlike the first few times, the Emperor already knew what he was doing. He'd built the Thunder Warriors, he'd built the Primarchs, and he'd built the Legions Astartes. He already possessed a clear road-map of the process, already had bajillions of test cases for study, and plenty of field testing to see where improvements could be made. He logically deduced that the genetic link between Primarch and Marine was the weak link (as provided to us in the Codex quote), and so removed that link, tying what would become the Grey Knights directly to himself and his perfect genetic code.

Was this his original plan for this material? We don't know. We'll probably never know. In the end, however, it doesn't matter. The closest thing to a "Primarch" you can claim for the GK is the Emperor, Himself.

 Psienesis wrote:

Completely unnecessary. Point to where my logic has flaws. Stop being antagonistic and have a discussion. All I'm hearing is one sentence repeated in a codex written to appear like propaganda. Stop acting as if your entire hobby is being assailed and engage in a dialogue speculating a subject that is ONLY speculation at its very core, as it is fiction.

Arguing head-canon is a fruitless endeavor.

The Emperor had plenty of time during the Heresy (and before it) to undertake this project. He wasn't in the Web-way fighting Daemons (that's what his Custodes were doing), he had retired to his laboratories on Terra after naming Horus the Warmaster. What was he doing in those labs? We don't know... probably this, building Geneseed v4.

Unlike the first few times, the Emperor already knew what he was doing. He'd built the Thunder Warriors, he'd built the Primarchs, and he'd built the Legions Astartes. He already possessed a clear road-map of the process, already had bajillions of test cases for study, and plenty of field testing to see where improvements could be made. He logically deduced that the genetic link between Primarch and Marine was the weak link (as provided to us in the Codex quote), and so removed that link, tying what would become the Grey Knights directly to himself and his perfect genetic code.

Was this his original plan for this material? We don't know. We'll probably never know. In the end, however, it doesn't matter. The closest thing to a "Primarch" you can claim for the GK is the Emperor, Himself.

He said specifically he was working on the webway, but your point is still valid. Given the time he had before all hell broke loose, he likely had created this batch beforehand. We had boiled down to fruitless speculation that is nonetheless rewarding.

I'm starting to differentiate between the creative users, the overly creative users, and hardline users, and the super hardline users. Makes for better communication.

For instance, I would never expect speculation out of you and I would never expect anything but speculation from david choe. lol

Oh, I speculate all the time. My personal head-canon is a radical departure from the material presented about the setting, at least in regards to certain aspects of it. To such a point that it would be unrecognizable to the vast majority of 40K fans.

However, I don't use my personal head-canon as a point of debate on the forums, because that's fruitless. That's simply arguing opinions, which goes nowhere.

Though it's true that there's no such thing as "canon" in 40K, most fans follow the information provided in a Codex as the "most accurate" or "closest thing to canon" as exists in the setting. So when a question like "Where did the GK geneseed come from?" comes up, what's stated in a Codex is generally believed to be the closest thing to "the absolute truth" as you're going to find, especially when there's very little room in what the Codex says for interpretation.

 Psienesis wrote:
Oh, I speculate all the time. My personal head-canon is a radical departure from the material presented about the setting, at least in regards to certain aspects of it. To such a point that it would be unrecognizable to the vast majority of 40K fans.

However, I don't use my personal head-canon as a point of debate on the forums, because that's fruitless. That's simply arguing opinions, which goes nowhere.

Though it's true that there's no such thing as "canon" in 40K, most fans follow the information provided in a Codex as the "most accurate" or "closest thing to canon" as exists in the setting. So when a question like "Where did the GK geneseed come from?" comes up, what's stated in a Codex is generally believed to be the closest thing to "the absolute truth" as you're going to find, especially when there's very little room in what the Codex says for interpretation.

I'll always want more out of content meant to drive such a large universe and feel honestly that it was meant to be taken in such a way. Oh well, some will follow the letter, some the spirit, and some won't play at all.

 Shidank wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Completely unnecessary. Point to where my logic has flaws. Stop being antagonistic and have a discussion. All I'm hearing is one sentence repeated in a codex written to appear like propaganda. Stop acting as if your entire hobby is being assailed and engage in a dialogue speculating a subject that is ONLY speculation at its very core, as it is fiction.

Arguing head-canon is a fruitless endeavor.

The Emperor had plenty of time during the Heresy (and before it) to undertake this project. He wasn't in the Web-way fighting Daemons (that's what his Custodes were doing), he had retired to his laboratories on Terra after naming Horus the Warmaster. What was he doing in those labs? We don't know... probably this, building Geneseed v4.

Unlike the first few times, the Emperor already knew what he was doing. He'd built the Thunder Warriors, he'd built the Primarchs, and he'd built the Legions Astartes. He already possessed a clear road-map of the process, already had bajillions of test cases for study, and plenty of field testing to see where improvements could be made. He logically deduced that the genetic link between Primarch and Marine was the weak link (as provided to us in the Codex quote), and so removed that link, tying what would become the Grey Knights directly to himself and his perfect genetic code.

Was this his original plan for this material? We don't know. We'll probably never know. In the end, however, it doesn't matter. The closest thing to a "Primarch" you can claim for the GK is the Emperor, Himself.

He said specifically he was working on the webway, but your point is still valid. Given the time he had before all hell broke loose, he likely had created this batch beforehand. We had boiled down to fruitless speculation that is nonetheless rewarding.

I'm starting to differentiate between the creative users, the overly creative users, and hardline users, and the super hardline users. Makes for better communication.

For instance, I would never expect speculation out of you and I would never expect anything but speculation from david choe. lol

What am I, out of curiosity?

A gentleman and a scholar? Lol

You seem much more receptive of speculation with a respectable knowledge of the canon.

Haha, just nice to know (sometimes...) what people think of you. That sounds about right, I'm open to speculation, my knowledge dries up post heresy though, and im always learning stuff here, especially from the older fluff.

It's the newer fluff that cripples me.

Well, that and my aversion to pirating e-books.

 Shidank wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Completely unnecessary. Point to where my logic has flaws. Stop being antagonistic and have a discussion. All I'm hearing is one sentence repeated in a codex written to appear like propaganda. Stop acting as if your entire hobby is being assailed and engage in a dialogue speculating a subject that is ONLY speculation at its very core, as it is fiction.

Arguing head-canon is a fruitless endeavor.

The Emperor had plenty of time during the Heresy (and before it) to undertake this project. He wasn't in the Web-way fighting Daemons (that's what his Custodes were doing), he had retired to his laboratories on Terra after naming Horus the Warmaster. What was he doing in those labs? We don't know... probably this, building Geneseed v4.

Unlike the first few times, the Emperor already knew what he was doing. He'd built the Thunder Warriors, he'd built the Primarchs, and he'd built the Legions Astartes. He already possessed a clear road-map of the process, already had bajillions of test cases for study, and plenty of field testing to see where improvements could be made. He logically deduced that the genetic link between Primarch and Marine was the weak link (as provided to us in the Codex quote), and so removed that link, tying what would become the Grey Knights directly to himself and his perfect genetic code.

Was this his original plan for this material? We don't know. We'll probably never know. In the end, however, it doesn't matter. The closest thing to a "Primarch" you can claim for the GK is the Emperor, Himself.

He said specifically he was working on the webway, but your point is still valid. Given the time he had before all hell broke loose, he likely had created this batch beforehand. We had boiled down to fruitless speculation that is nonetheless rewarding.

I'm starting to differentiate between the creative users, the overly creative users, and hardline users, and the super hardline users. Makes for better communication.

For instance, I would never expect speculation out of you and I would never expect anything but speculation from david choe. lol

Speculation =/= Rejection of codex statements.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
No worries -- let's all of us get back on-topic ...

... which is

 ChazSexington wrote:
So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

But I am not really sure why OP assumes the necessary genes are missing.

Because they are, according to Deliverance Lost.

I took it that they were missing intentionally and not provided by the Emperor. The Emperor only gave Corax enough know how so that he could rebuild his chapter, not go and create brand new Legions. Will have to go and dig out Deliverance Lost .... Thanks Chaz!

Ok so I went back to Deliverance Lost

p165
There were areas left blank though, intentionally he assumed. Details of the parts of the Emperors own Genetic strand that were employed in the creation of the Primarchs. Obviously the Emperor did not trust Corax that much.

'You have given me the secrets of the Primarch Project?' said Corax, his voice a whisper of amazement. 'The parts that were relevant to the creation of the Legions, yes,' said the Emperor.

So I was wrong in part, but the Emperor did hold back some information.

There is more involving the Emperors genetic material, the unsullied genes used to create the Primarchs themselves. I was going to get these quotes but I had to go to work.

So there is untainted Geneseed left lying around on Terra. Material that was used to create the Primarchs.

As a source on Gene seed Deliverance Lost delivers

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Completely unnecessary. Point to where my logic has flaws. Stop being antagonistic and have a discussion. All I'm hearing is one sentence repeated in a codex written to appear like propaganda. Stop acting as if your entire hobby is being assailed and engage in a dialogue speculating a subject that is ONLY speculation at its very core, as it is fiction.

Arguing head-canon is a fruitless endeavor.

The Emperor had plenty of time during the Heresy (and before it) to undertake this project. He wasn't in the Web-way fighting Daemons (that's what his Custodes were doing), he had retired to his laboratories on Terra after naming Horus the Warmaster. What was he doing in those labs? We don't know... probably this, building Geneseed v4.

Unlike the first few times, the Emperor already knew what he was doing. He'd built the Thunder Warriors, he'd built the Primarchs, and he'd built the Legions Astartes. He already possessed a clear road-map of the process, already had bajillions of test cases for study, and plenty of field testing to see where improvements could be made. He logically deduced that the genetic link between Primarch and Marine was the weak link (as provided to us in the Codex quote), and so removed that link, tying what would become the Grey Knights directly to himself and his perfect genetic code.

Was this his original plan for this material? We don't know. We'll probably never know. In the end, however, it doesn't matter. The closest thing to a "Primarch" you can claim for the GK is the Emperor, Himself.

He said specifically he was working on the webway, but your point is still valid. Given the time he had before all hell broke loose, he likely had created this batch beforehand. We had boiled down to fruitless speculation that is nonetheless rewarding.

I'm starting to differentiate between the creative users, the overly creative users, and hardline users, and the super hardline users. Makes for better communication.

For instance, I would never expect speculation out of you and I would never expect anything but speculation from david choe. lol

Speculation =/= Rejection of codex statements.

Rather than try to start up a flame, I recommend matching the tone of the most recent posts. If you have nothing to contribute, simply don't post. If you want to appear stubborn, you've succeeded. That'll show me. :p

Moving on in a more constructive light, Pilau's find in DL was pretty great as far as where the stock came from. This would lend a mighty air to the original purpose simply having been overproduction in the early stages of creating the Legions.

 Shidank wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


Speculation =/= Rejection of codex statements.

Rather than try to start up a flame, I recommend matching the tone of the most recent posts. If you have nothing to contribute, simply don't post. If you want to appear stubborn, you've succeeded. That'll show me. :p

Moving on in a more constructive light, Pilau's find in DL was pretty great as far as where the stock came from. This would lend a mighty air to the original purpose simply having been overproduction in the early stages of creating the Legions.

I'm not though. There's no ambiguity to the origins, nor the original purpose, of the Grey Knights. Ad hominem attacks on Psiensis, or me for that matter, for regarding what the codices say is odd. We have to, for the sake of any wh40k-related argument, presume the codices are correct. Our gripe here is the premise of your argument is disregarding established codex (and other fluff) info for head-canon, which is useless as far as debating the fictional universe of wh40k.

Can things be retconned? Sure, but then the argument's premises change. If a new GK book or codex (I think codices trump BL) states that the GK's gene-seed originator is unknown, then we can have a debate as to who we think is their gene-father.

No matter how much you call a Cultist a Howling Banshee, it's still a Cultist, so until the CSM codex changes the Cultist entry to read Howling Banshee, it's a Cultist.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


Speculation =/= Rejection of codex statements.

Rather than try to start up a flame, I recommend matching the tone of the most recent posts. If you have nothing to contribute, simply don't post. If you want to appear stubborn, you've succeeded. That'll show me. :p

Moving on in a more constructive light, Pilau's find in DL was pretty great as far as where the stock came from. This would lend a mighty air to the original purpose simply having been overproduction in the early stages of creating the Legions.

I'm not though. There's no ambiguity to the origins, nor the original purpose, of the Grey Knights. Ad hominem attacks on Psiensis, or me for that matter, for regarding what the codices say is odd. We have to, for the sake of any wh40k-related argument, presume the codices are correct. Our gripe here is the premise of your argument is disregarding established codex (and other fluff) info for head-canon, which is useless as far as debating the fictional universe of wh40k.

Can things be retconned? Sure, but then the argument's premises change. If a new GK book or codex (I think codices trump BL) states that the GK's gene-seed originator is unknown, then we can have a debate as to who we think is their gene-father.

No matter how much you call a Cultist a Howling Banshee, it's still a Cultist, so until the CSM codex changes the Cultist entry to read Howling Banshee, it's a Cultist.

Your objections have been noted, as has your knack for ignoring my own questions by blathering on with simple repetitive rhetoric. Your anger comes from being unwilling to actually consider my own questions on the matter, and that's fine. You don't have to respect me. You should however, maintain at least a modicum of self-respect on your own post.

Your lack of willingness to engage here and need to continue on despite the several times the argument has been dropped has shown a clear disregard for members commenting on your thread and the conduct becoming a user.

I ask again that you simply do not respond or that a MOD close the thread. Nothing but block quotes and repeated posts are coming from you now.

I'm sorry a more fruitful discussion could not be reached.

Why can't we all just be friends :(

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why can't we all just be friends :(

Chaz has a need to be right that supersedes our want of delightful discussion.

There are other threads. Let us away! INTO THE NIGHT!

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why can't we all just be friends :(

I'll be your friend, brother! Even though you ranked the Dark Angels last!

 Shidank wrote:
There are other threads. Let us away! INTO THE NIGHT!

Yea, it'd probably be best if we moved on from this topic. Though I have to admit I have no idea what it's about anymore

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why can't we all just be friends :(

I'll be your friend, brother! Even though you ranked the Dark Angels last!

Hopefully that's forgivable after my reasoning...? I can always put them at 17th instead?

 ImAGeek wrote:
Hopefully that's forgivable after my reasoning...? I can always put them at 17th instead?

Honestly, I really don't mind that much. People have different tastes anyway.

Plus you're pretty neutral about them in discussions so I can respect that!

And wow I'm not typing straight anymore, probably done posting for today lol

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Hopefully that's forgivable after my reasoning...? I can always put them at 17th instead?

Honestly, I really don't mind that much. People have different tastes anyway.

Plus you're pretty neutral about them in discussions so I can I respect that!

You two are fine men. Truly, scholars and gentlemen both.

Let us depart for the shore to sup on colorful roasted birds that we may remark upon their textures like an Emperor's Children Marine of old.

The bromance is real in this thread. Wowza.

I can't, I've got my helmet on! But are your jet packs fueled and ready? The feast awaits! Let us depart, brothers! To the shores of plenty!

 Shidank wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


Speculation =/= Rejection of codex statements.

Rather than try to start up a flame, I recommend matching the tone of the most recent posts. If you have nothing to contribute, simply don't post. If you want to appear stubborn, you've succeeded. That'll show me. :p

Moving on in a more constructive light, Pilau's find in DL was pretty great as far as where the stock came from. This would lend a mighty air to the original purpose simply having been overproduction in the early stages of creating the Legions.

I'm not though. There's no ambiguity to the origins, nor the original purpose, of the Grey Knights. Ad hominem attacks on Psiensis, or me for that matter, for regarding what the codices say is odd. We have to, for the sake of any wh40k-related argument, presume the codices are correct. Our gripe here is the premise of your argument is disregarding established codex (and other fluff) info for head-canon, which is useless as far as debating the fictional universe of wh40k.

Can things be retconned? Sure, but then the argument's premises change. If a new GK book or codex (I think codices trump BL) states that the GK's gene-seed originator is unknown, then we can have a debate as to who we think is their gene-father.

No matter how much you call a Cultist a Howling Banshee, it's still a Cultist, so until the CSM codex changes the Cultist entry to read Howling Banshee, it's a Cultist.

Your objections have been noted, as has your knack for ignoring my own questions by blathering on with simple repetitive rhetoric. Your anger comes from being unwilling to actually consider my own questions on the matter, and that's fine. You don't have to respect me. You should however, maintain at least a modicum of self-respect on your own post.

Your lack of willingness to engage here and need to continue on despite the several times the argument has been dropped has shown a clear disregard for members commenting on your thread and the conduct becoming a user.

I ask again that you simply do not respond or that a MOD close the thread. Nothing but block quotes and repeated posts are coming from you now.

I'm sorry a more fruitful discussion could not be reached.

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why can't we all just be friends :(

Chaz has a need to be right that supersedes our want of delightful discussion.

There are other threads. Let us away! INTO THE NIGHT!

Hahaha, what the Hell?

As you dodge the question, I'll flat out ask you two yes/no questions.

Do you accept the codex-stated information that
- the Grey Knights' gene-seed is derived directly from the Emperor, as stated in the codex?
and
- the Grey Knights' original purpose, as stated in the codex, was to be a back-up plan to fight Chaos if the Emperor was incapacitated during the Heresy?

Now judging from your earlier replies, you do not believe so. Pick n' mixing fluff isn't the basis for the fictional universe discussion.

 Shidank wrote:
Lol alright, well if you're just stating "it's in the codex" and not replying to posts, I think we can call that matter concluded and move on.


New point that you may sink your teeth into?

Assuming the Emperor began work on the Grey Knights(or at least a chapter's strength inventory of unique geneseed) before the Heresy, what could that purpose have been?

I guess what I'm asking is, with the Emperor assuming the webway would be a success and that daemonic incursion in the Imperium would be relegated to a minor matter, what was the original purpose of the Grey Knights? What was the geneseed for?

 Shidank wrote:
I was always more of the opinion that the Grey Knights were made from traitor legion geneseed, but that theory is getting thinner and thinner by the day.

I invite whatever MOD is willing to close this thread.

The original questions look to have been answered to a reasonable degree and speculation is being blocked. Debate and discussion are being shut down instead of encouraged. Rather than allow this to continue as a contest of who can quote the most from a codex, I would say it's a fair point to say the discussion is dead.

You don't have to post here anymore if you don't want to debate with Chaz. It seems a little odd that you want to lock it down so badly when it's Chaz's thread not yours.

 Grimskul wrote:
You don't have to post here anymore if you don't want to debate with Chaz. It seems a little odd that you want to lock it down so badly when it's Chaz's thread not yours.

Yea, it is his thread. I guess if the discussion hasn't been satisfactorily resolved for the OP and there's still room for discussion, then there's no legitimate reason to close it.

The original purpose for the Grey Knights sounds to me like they were made to guard the Webway from Daemon incursions. Has this already been brought up in the thread? Sounds reasonable, no? They didn't need a Primarch to lead them, plus they were made after the Primarchs had alreay been created.

They needed to be pure and without the influence of a Primarch, with devotion only to the Emperor. Sort of like the Custodes, except over tne entire Webway.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
You don't have to post here anymore if you don't want to debate with Chaz. It seems a little odd that you want to lock it down so badly when it's Chaz's thread not yours.

Yea, it is his thread. I guess if the discussion hasn't been satisfactorily resolved for the OP and there's still room for discussion, then there's no legitimate reason to close it.

The original purpose for the Grey Knights sounds to me like they were made to guard the Webway from Daemon incursions. Has this already been brought up in the thread? Sounds reasonable, no? They didn't need a Primarch to lead them, plus they were made after the Primarchs had alreay been created.

They needed to be pure and without the influence of a Primarch, with devotion only to the Emperor. Sort of like the Custodes, except over tne entire Webway.

That's a definite possibility, given the fact that the Emperor became increasingly withdrawn from the rest of the Primarchs and other Imperial forces, his outright silence on the project implies he didn't really trust (or care to inform) anyone with the full scale of his plans and needed a direct response force under him to cover the expansion of the Imperial Webway sans fuss by having a completely separate and new organization. The Grey Knights were probably even a potential precursor to what the SM could have evolved into after the Great Crusade given the Emperor's supposed role and motivation in facilitating mankind's psychic potential.