recently played a game where my opponent brought quite a tough army. We agreed on 1500 points and so I made a fun list thinking it was a friendly game as we never said we were bringing cheese.
What do you guys think, should I expect my opponent to give me a warning that he is bringing a stong list so I can make a strong list as well or should I just accpt that opponents will turn up to friendly games without giving warning?
insaniak wrote: The first question would be: Did he realise he was building a 'strong' list, or was he just using models that he liked?
And the second question would be: If he did purposely build a 'strong' list, was he purposely trying for an unfairly strong list...?
He doesn't necessarily feel that his 3 flyers and stompa are 'cheese, just because you do.
Well he said that he brought the list because he wanted to try the models but then later in the evening I heard him saying to another player that he brought the list because he saw me play the week before and saw what i brang and wanted to bring a list that would beat me eg tailoring his army to beat me.
But forget that he was building a list to win against my army, should any player when playing in a friendly game bring 3 flyers and a super heavy without first giving a polite notice to his oponent that hes bringing a tough list eg 3 flyers
champagne_socialist wrote: recently played a game where my opponent brought quite a tough army. We agreed on 1500 points and so I made a fun list thinking it was a friendly game as we never said we were bringing cheese. So I turn up to the game and he shows me his army list and he has 3 flyers and an Imperial Knight.
Would you turn up to a friendly game with 3 flyers and a knight without telling your opponent that you were gonna bring flyers or super heavies? I could understand turning iup with 1 flyer or just 1 knight and not saying anything but 3 flyers and a knight in the same army list.
What do you guys think, should I expect my opponent to give me a warning that he is bringing a stong list so I can make a strong list as well or should I just accpt that opponents will turn up to friendly games without giving warning?
1. Be clear about what game you want beforehand and see if compatible.
2. Tell your friend that you think he is being cheesy
3. Dont play if you dont want to
champagne_socialist wrote: recently played a game where my opponent brought quite a tough army. We agreed on 1500 points and so I made a fun list thinking it was a friendly game as we never said we were bringing cheese. So I turn up to the game and he shows me his army list and he has 3 flyers and an Imperial Knight.
Would you turn up to a friendly game with 3 flyers and a knight without telling your opponent that you were gonna bring flyers or super heavies? I could understand turning iup with 1 flyer or just 1 knight and not saying anything but 3 flyers and a knight in the same army list.
What do you guys think, should I expect my opponent to give me a warning that he is bringing a stong list so I can make a strong list as well or should I just accpt that opponents will turn up to friendly games without giving warning?
1. Be clear about what game you want beforehand and see if compatible.
2. Tell your friend that you think he is being cheesy
3. Dont play if you dont want to
i did make a point to tell him his list was cheesy and he should have said before tht he was spamming flyers and bringing a lord of war lol.
champagne_socialist wrote: But forget that he was building a list to win against my army, should any player when playing in a friendly game bring 3 flyers and a super heavy without first giving a polite notice to his oponent that hes bringing a tough list eg 3 flyers
In the current game?
Sure, why not?
That's just the nature of the current edition of 40K.
champagne_socialist wrote: But forget that he was building a list to win against my army, should any player when playing in a friendly game bring 3 flyers and a super heavy without first giving a polite notice to his oponent that hes bringing a tough list eg 3 flyers
In the current game?
Sure, why not?
That's just the nature of the current edition of 40K.
fair enough, i was under he impression in friendly games you would tell your oponent to bring a strong list if youre bringing a strong list to make the game fair because a few reasons, firstly its not fun on the oponent if he is tabled in turn 2 because he brought a fluffy fun list to a friendly game and you brought a super cheesy list and secondoly i cant imagine it is much fun for you if you have a super strong list and youre up against a much weaker list that can't do anything to you.
Fun and fluffy are not useful descriptors for a list.
Fun and fluffy are so incredibly broad and subjective it may as well desscribe every list.
Remember that in all of this its a two way street. If you expect your opponent to tone down their list, be prepared to meet them half way by toning up yours.
champagne_socialist wrote: firstly its not fun on the oponent if he is tabled in turn 2 because he brought a fluffy fun list to a friendly game and you brought a super cheesy list
So why is your choice to bring a less-effective list your opponent's fault?
and secondoly i cant imagine it is much fun for you if you have a super strong list and youre up against a much weaker list that can't do anything to you.
Probably not. Unless, of course, you enjoy tabling people in turn 2.
But ultimately, your opponent is only responsible for his own list. What you choose to put on the table is up to you.
champagne_socialist wrote: firstly its not fun on the oponent if he is tabled in turn 2 because he brought a fluffy fun list to a friendly game and you brought a super cheesy list
So why is your choice to bring a less-effective list your opponent's fault?
and secondoly i cant imagine it is much fun for you if you have a super strong list and youre up against a much weaker list that can't do anything to you.
Probably not. Unless, of course, you enjoy tabling people in turn 2.
But ultimately, your opponent is only responsible for his own list. What you choose to put on the table is up to you.
No one is saying dont bring 3 flyers and a super heavy I am saying should he have said 'hey I am going to be bringing quite a strog list so you might want to do the same'.
If you agreed to play a friendly game and you turned up and your opponent brought an unbound list of just riptides without telling you he was bringing a strong list how would you react?
Well... I would say your observation is a bit dualistic in nature...
On one hand, I completely understand how that looks. After all, this is sort of meant to be an infantry game, so, anything way way outside of that paradigm, probably is best to notify the person to whom you are playing - prior to making lists. I imagine hearing that your opponent was just tailor making a list to beat you was indeed a bit frustrating; it shows you what to expect from that player in the future. With these kinds of players, its probably best to just look at him like that brother that wants to up-one because its.... just the brotherly thing to do - to up-one
On the other hand, and this really kind of goes against the legalistic propensity I believe we are all engrained with, walking in with little to no expectations on how the lists should look like, will probably make for a more enjoyable game.
This doesn't mean you cannot chide at him humorously for obviously bringing the perfect counter vs your army - as long as you get him to laugh too
When it comes to Superheavies, everybody should ideally be a consenting adult. When organising a game, tell the opponent that you're planning on bringing one, so he can plan ahead or scream out a safeword and find someone less sick and twisted to play with.
I don't use Superheavies, but like to know if an opponent wants to use one so I can make a game that won't be over by turn 2. My SM list that I'm building for friendlies will not stand up to a Knight or Baneblade, but I can give them a decent fight with my Chaos list. That way we'll both have an enjoyable match, unless he's only there to stomp puppies. That said, I normally organise my games a week in advance- it'd be harder to sort out on a pick-up basis.
7th can be wildly unbalanced, and the only way to make a sensible "friendly" game is to work out some limitations beforehand. That is the nature of the plasticrack beast at the moment.
champagne_socialist wrote: If you agreed to play a friendly game and you turned up and your opponent brought an unbound list of just riptides without telling you he was bringing a strong list how would you react?
Unless we had specifically agreed to not play Unbound, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Again, it's the nature of the current game.
If I found that I didn't enjoy the game, I just wouldn't repeat the experience.
What it boils down to is: If you and your opponent don't agree to set boundaries on the sorts of lists you bring, then any list is fair game.
champagne_socialist wrote: you don't know my list, a fun and fluffy list just means a list designed for a friendly game eg no spamming of OP units.
A unit being overpowered doesn't automatically mean that including it isn't 'fluffy'...
champagne_socialist wrote: If you agreed to play a friendly game and you turned up and your opponent brought an unbound list of just riptides without telling you he was bringing a strong list how would you react?
Unless we had specifically agreed to not play Unbound, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Again, it's the nature of the current game.
If I found that I didn't enjoy the game, I just wouldn't repeat the experience.
What it boils down to is: If you and your opponent don't agree to set boundaries on the sorts of lists you bring, then any list is fair game.
champagne_socialist wrote: you don't know my list, a fun and fluffy list just means a list designed for a friendly game eg no spamming of OP units.
A unit being overpowered doesn't automatically mean that including it isn't 'fluffy'...
Well we obviously have very different interpretations of how games should be organised and played. If you think turning up to a game with a list as op and spamming as much op as possible to try and get a turn 1/2 table is fine then I'm glad you are not in my gaming circle .
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Zed wrote: When it comes to Superheavies, everybody should ideally be a consenting adult. When organising a game, tell the opponent that you're planning on bringing one, so he can plan ahead or scream out a safeword and find someone less sick and twisted to play with.
I don't use Superheavies, but like to know if an opponent wants to use one so I can make a game that won't be over by turn 2. My SM list that I'm building for friendlies will not stand up to a Knight or Baneblade, but I can give them a decent fight with my Chaos list. That way we'll both have an enjoyable match, unless he's only there to stomp puppies. That said, I normally organise my games a week in advance- it'd be harder to sort out on a pick-up basis.
7th can be wildly unbalanced, and the only way to make a sensible "friendly" game is to work out some limitations beforehand. That is the nature of the plasticrack beast at the moment.
Echoes my thoughts exactly. 40k is all about having fun and there is no fun in turning up to a game and finding out that your opponent has a super strong army where he has spammed op units or bought super heavies or spammed flyers and your army has nothing that can deal with it and the entire game (2 turns) is spent removing your models.
I do enjoy playing against tough armies but its nice to know in advance so I can prepare an army that will give someone a good game and hopefully make the night more fun for the both of us.
Zed wrote: When it comes to Superheavies, everybody should ideally be a consenting adult. When organising a game, tell the opponent that you're planning on bringing one, so he can plan ahead or scream out a safeword and find someone less sick and twisted to play with.
I don't use Superheavies, but like to know if an opponent wants to use one so I can make a game that won't be over by turn 2. My SM list that I'm building for friendlies will not stand up to a Knight or Baneblade, but I can give them a decent fight with my Chaos list. That way we'll both have an enjoyable match, unless he's only there to stomp puppies. That said, I normally organise my games a week in advance- it'd be harder to sort out on a pick-up basis.
7th can be wildly unbalanced, and the only way to make a sensible "friendly" game is to work out some limitations beforehand. That is the nature of the plasticrack beast at the moment.
Echoes my thoughts exactly. 40k is all about having fun and there is no fun in turning up to a game and finding out that your opponent has a super strong army where he has spammed op units or bought super heavies or spammed flyers and your army has nothing that can deal with it and the entire game (2 turns) is spent removing your models.
I do enjoy playing against tough armies but its nice to know in advance so I can prepare an army that will give someone a good game and hopefully make the night more fun for the both of us.
Great, however reading through the rest of the thread (and what insaniak said) it doesn't look like you discussed between you what models you could bring, how many detachments, superheavies, etc- in which case the Knight, 3 flyer bloke has done nothing wrong in bringing what he did. Which is his point- in 7th, you have to talk about these things.
For example, you could tell me we're playing 1750. I can bring some Crimson Fists (fluffy as hell, but not stunningly powerful and I'm new to the army), or Slaaneshi Chaos (also fluffy as hell, but a borderline-terrifying blend of strong units synergising well that I have right where I want it). Unless you tell me you're bringing something sub-optimal, I might default to Slaaneshis and annihilate your army.
The fault goes both ways- neither of you started the conversation.
I was recently participating in an escalation league.
First was a 200pt kill team, to which I brought a dark angel's tac squad with PG and PC. A bit TAC, nothing too bad. (you should have seen some of the other lists)
Next came 750pt, I brought more tacs, a lvl 2 libby, a razor back and a dakka pred. Once again, just for fun.
In the third week, after seeing people "cheese" their armies (barely winning my first games, only because I got lucky with opponents), I brought a chaplain on a bike with mace of redemption, and a 5 man ravening command squad with apothecary.
This list was more competitive, but with the base of what I had before, nothing "over the top".
That is not how my opponent saw it, nor the others watching out game. He brought a grav cent star, and still cried cheese the whole game, even more so once I killed them. I won, and had to constantly listen to how "dark angels are op!"
I didn't even know DA could even be op, and I saw nothing wrong with my list. But the other guys weren't just ing and being jerks. They just genuinely believed I had brought cheese.
What you see as cheese, someone else might see as fun or fluffy, and vice versa.
I think your opponent should specify if he's going to bring 3 Flyers and/or a SH. It's not something I would expect to show up in a normal game. I'd be up for playing against that list, but I'd want some notice ahead of time.
champagne_socialist wrote: If you think turning up to a game with a list as op and spamming as much op as possible to try and get a turn 1/2 table is fine then I'm glad you are not in my gaming circle .
There's a difference between thinking it's acceptable and doing it myself.
My own lists are generally built around the models that I want to use. I'll sometimes put some effort into making sure the list is going to be effective on the table, but for the most part I just want an army that I'm going to enjoy playing with.
But I accept that others don't necessarily approach list building with the same attitude as I do, and so as long as their list is legal (and again, assuming we haven't set any sort of limits beforehand) then I don't feel I have any legitimate reason to complain about what they bring.
If there are specific things that you don't want to face, just discuss that with your opponent when you're setting up the game. And then everyone is on the same page when you're actually standing at the table.
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jreilly89 wrote: I think your opponent should specify if he's going to bring 3 Flyers and/or a SH. It's not something I would expect to show up in a normal game..
Then you probably need to have another read of the rules for building an army list, to be honest.
It's not a list that you should have been expecting in 5th edition. In 7th, there is absolutely no reason to not expect an opponent to bring whatever they want, unless you agree to limitations beforehand... because the book makes it abundantly clear that this is the way they designed this edition, and what they expect players to do.
If you don't discuss beforehand what you consider an acceptable list to be playing with, then can you really blame someone for bringing what the rules allow them to? This guy could be on a different forum somewhere else saying "I had a terrible game the other day, I showed up for a fun friendly match and my opponent ran an army of entirely grots! I stomped all over him, it was terrible"
'Fun', 'Fluffy' and 'Friendly' are pretty useless descriptions for what kind of game you want to play. Tau Battlesuit-only is fluffy. 5 Flyrants is fun. Having a tough well-fought match is friendly.
If you want to show up with a particular list that you consider sub-optimal and have a close-fought game, you need to tell your opponent 'I'm going to play with an arm tied behind my back, but I'd still like to have a fair fight, so can you tie yours as well?'. (And you're still going to run in to disagreements when he shows up with a (comparatively easy) Tau gunline instead of Farsight Tau riptide spam.)
Yeah, cheese and fun are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Like my buddies and I have a weekly game night where we've agreed to bring the cheesiest unbound Apoc stuff. So we'll get like 5 Knights, 18 Riptides, 200 Necron warriors, Tau Tigersharks, 3 C'Tans, Harridan + Hierophant, etc.
jreilly89 wrote: I think your opponent should specify if he's going to bring 3 Flyers and/or a SH. It's not something I would expect to show up in a normal game..
Then you probably need to have another read of the rules for building an army list, to be honest.
It's not a list that you should have been expecting in 5th edition. In 7th, there is absolutely no reason to not expect an opponent to bring whatever they want, unless you agree to limitations beforehand... because the book makes it abundantly clear that this is the way they designed this edition, and what they expect players to do.
I'm sorry. What? I have read the rulebook, cover to cover, and never seen something along the lines of "surprise your opponent with whatever the feth you want". Rather, most of it is about Forging the Narrative and having a fun and friendly game.
Don't get me wrong, in a tournament or serious game, he's allowed to do whatever he wants. Hell, even a random PUG, this would semi-fly with me. But if I had a friend who intentionally brought this gak against me, with no warning, I'd be rather cheesed off. If I'm going to be running Flying Circus or all Daemon Summoning, I'd give my opponent fair warning, same as if I was bringing 3 Knights or a Lord of Skulls.
champagne_socialist wrote: recently played a game where my opponent brought quite a tough army. We agreed on 1500 points and so I made a fun list thinking it was a friendly game as we never said we were bringing cheese. So I turn up to the game and he shows me his army list and he has 3 flyers and an Imperial Knight.
Would you turn up to a friendly game with 3 flyers and a knight without telling your opponent that you were gonna bring flyers or super heavies? I could understand turning iup with 1 flyer or just 1 knight and not saying anything but 3 flyers and a knight in the same army list.
What do you guys think, should I expect my opponent to give me a warning that he is bringing a stong list so I can make a strong list as well or should I just accpt that opponents will turn up to friendly games without giving warning?
I had a friend that played Tyranids and knew I didn't like dealing with rush/horde armys, so he tailored his army to rush/horde (Thats not totally unique for a Tyranid army though, is it?), so I tailored my army to deal with that (adding Ogryns, deepstrike Kasrkin to take out hivemind etc.) and he adapted and so on, back and forth.
Some people might want to make an army to ruin your day to help you adapt and grow as a player, maybe thats it?
Although bringing a Lord of War is properly brie. A bit emmental.
CalSt23 wrote: Although bringing a Lord of War is properly brie. A bit emmental.
Whats the word?
Right, cheesey.
Yeah, I can't imagine playing against the kind of TFG who would bring a Malcador without asking their opponent for permission. Nobody is going to enjoy tabling that poor guy because he brought a tank that's worse than its points in LRBTs, so they should have the decency to inform their opponent in advance and allow that opponent to bring a weaker list that will make it a fair game instead of a massacre.
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jreilly89 wrote: I'm sorry. What? I have read the rulebook, cover to cover, and never seen something along the lines of "surprise your opponent with whatever the feth you want".
The point is that flyers and superheavies shouldn't be a surprise, just like you shouldn't think "WTF I can't believe you surprised me with a tactical squad". They're part of the standard game in 7th edition, despite the stubborn efforts of certain players to pretend that the 5th edition army construction rules are still in effect.
jreilly89 wrote: I'm sorry. What? I have read the rulebook, cover to cover, and never seen something along the lines of "surprise your opponent with whatever the feth you want".
The point is that flyers and superheavies shouldn't be a surprise, just like you shouldn't think "WTF I can't believe you surprised me with a tactical squad". They're part of the standard game in 7th edition, despite the stubborn efforts of certain players to pretend that the 5th edition army construction rules are still in effect.
According to who? GW has made it pretty clear that their "rules" are often a lot more like guidelines, what with Forging the Narrative. There is nothing in the rulebook requiring I play a game with SH or Flyers (although Flyers ahead of time is fine).
Besides, what makes part of the standard game? Few players at my LGS own a SH and I've rarely run in to more than two Flyers at a time, so I don't know where you're getting this information.
GW has made it pretty clear that their "rules" are often a lot more like guidelines, what with Forging the Narrative.
That doesn't change the fact that there's still a standard game that your house rules modify.
There is nothing in the rulebook requiring I play a game with SH or Flyers (although Flyers ahead of time is fine).
You're right, there isn't. But your choice to refuse to play against those things is a decision to enforce a "no flyers or superheavies" house rule. And you don't have the right to expect your opponents to notify you in advance that they're not going to be following your house rule.
Besides, what makes part of the standard game?
The fact that the rulebooks published by GW allow you to take flyers and superheavies without any mention of requiring special permission/alternate game types/whatever. They're just units like any other unit.
I was getting at is it more an alteration of their list to be malicious or to be helpful to the opponent.
Like, I wouldn't play a 10-0-0 formation in FIFA if I only needed to draw (aka- Doing a Chelsea or "Parking the bus") because that's just snide, I'd maybe approach a bit more cautious but not be a complete dick and make the game about me putting the ball in the corner and being dirty-
I still don't know about it being worse than its pts in LRBTs though, sure, you could bring along some vanquishers and go tank hunter on it, but whats the point? You'd be spending all your points because someones forced you to do that.
I hate the rules, Lords of War should've been kept for special occasions, not everyday games. OP should've probably laid down that Lords of War aren't in the battle, House rules. But that's just me.
super heavies these days are in codices same as anything else. is a new player who picked up the codex orks after 7th launched and took a stompa because it's just another unit in his codex to him being "that guy"?
BrianDavion wrote: super heavies these days are in codices same as anything else. is a new player who picked up the codex orks after 7th launched and took a stompa because it's just another unit in his codex to him being "that guy"?
You mean like a generation gap, with older players not used to Lords of Battle hating the new guys who see Lords of Battle as "Just another unit" ?
BrianDavion wrote: super heavies these days are in codices same as anything else. is a new player who picked up the codex orks after 7th launched and took a stompa because it's just another unit in his codex to him being "that guy"?
You mean like a generation gap, with older players not used to Lords of Battle hating the new guys who see Lords of Battle as "Just another unit" ?
Because that would make sense, at this point.
I was more thinking that we need to adapt, but now that you mention it a "generation gap" strikes me as very possiable. I used to play battletech until a few years back, and there was always a generation gap between those who insisted on the original 3025 technology, and those who accepted the new "star league era" and even clan tech.
I think it's worth noting that the clock never turned back. and those few people who refused to accept the new stuff basicly withered away, as they eaither adapted, or stopped playing. cause eventually they reached a point where they had to accept it
CalSt23 wrote: I still don't know about it being worse than its pts in LRBTs though, sure, you could bring along some vanquishers and go tank hunter on it, but whats the point? You'd be spending all your points because someones forced you to do that.
I think you missed the point there. The Malcador is a truly awful unit, despite being a superheavy tank. Any IG player that takes one would be better off taking LRBTs instead with those points. It doesn't matter what army you take to play against the Malcador, you have a better chance of winning because they included that "cheese" unit.
Well, there's nothing to say that you have to play at all, and what's someone going to do, hold a gun to your head? If you show up at a game expecting one thing, and the person has brought something else, you can simply say, "Dude, that's not what I'm expecting. We can meet up again, but this will be a waste of time."
CalSt23 wrote: I still don't know about it being worse than its pts in LRBTs though, sure, you could bring along some vanquishers and go tank hunter on it, but whats the point? You'd be spending all your points because someones forced you to do that.
I think you missed the point there. The Malcador is a truly awful unit, despite being a superheavy tank. Any IG player that takes one would be better off taking LRBTs instead with those points. It doesn't matter what army you take to play against the Malcador, you have a better chance of winning because they included that "cheese" unit.
Oooooh. Ok.
To be honest, you'd choose a Stormlord against Horde armies or a Banesword for anything else. If we're talking super heavy tanks, its the Baneblade family.
CalSt23 wrote: To be honest, you'd choose a Stormlord against Horde armies or a Banesword for anything else. If we're talking super heavy tanks, its the Baneblade family.
Yes, but that's the whole point: you can't say things like "LoW are cheese" when LoW units range from blatantly overpowered to so weak you're crippling your own list by taking them.
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Talys wrote: Well, there's nothing to say that you have to play at all, and what's someone going to do, hold a gun to your head? If you show up at a game expecting one thing, and the person has brought something else, you can simply say, "Dude, that's not what I'm expecting. We can meet up again, but this will be a waste of time."
Obviously you have a choice to enforce your house rule and refuse to play. The point is that you aren't being reasonable if you're expecting your opponent to read your mind and know that you demand advance warning for taking certain arbitrary classes of units. This isn't 5th edition anymore, superheavies and flyers are part of the normal game and it's entirely your fault if you're surprised by them. And if you feel so strongly about them that you need advance warning before anyone brings them to a game against you then you have the obligation to inform them in advance and allow them to make appropriate changes to their army (or just decide you're not worth the effort).
I'm sorry. What? I have read the rulebook, cover to cover, and never seen something along the lines of "surprise your opponent with whatever the feth you want". Rather, most of it is about Forging the Narrative and having a fun and friendly game.
The army building rules in the rulebook specifically mention players being free to use whatever models they have.
If you want to forge that narrative, and restrict the sorts of units that will be present in the game, that's totally fine. The point is simply that it is a little unreasonable to expect your opponent to know that you want to do that if the two of you don't discuss it prior to the game.
If you don't discuss any restrictions, then the default should always be to just use the rules in the dukedom. And that means that you shouldn't be any more surprised to see flyers or lords of war than any other type of unit.
if I had a friend who intentionally brought this gak against me, with no warning, I'd be rather cheesed off.
Flip that around. How would you feel if you show up to a game with a list that you think is perfectly reasonable, only to find that your friend is 'cheesed off' at your choice of armies because he didn't want to play against what you brought, but didn't bother to do you the courtesy of discussing it prior to the game and so is now annoyed at you for his own lack of communication?
I'm sorry. What? I have read the rulebook, cover to cover, and never seen something along the lines of "surprise your opponent with whatever the feth you want". Rather, most of it is about Forging the Narrative and having a fun and friendly game.
The army building rules in the rulebook specifically mention players being free to use whatever models they have.
If you want to forge that narrative, and restrict the sorts of units that will be present in the game, that's totally fine. The point is simply that it is a little unreasonable to expect your opponent to know that you want to do that if the two of you don't discuss it prior to the game.
If you don't discuss any restrictions, then the default should always be to just use the rules in the dukedom. And that means that you shouldn't be any more surprised to see flyers or lords of war than any other type of unit.
if I had a friend who intentionally brought this gak against me, with no warning, I'd be rather cheesed off.
Flip that around. How would you feel if you show up to a game with a list that you think is perfectly reasonable, only to find that your friend is 'cheesed off' at your choice of armies because he didn't want to play against what you brought, but didn't bother to do you the courtesy of discussing it prior to the game and so is now annoyed at you for his own lack of communication?
no one is denying thatyou can bring what you want, the point is that should an opponent give some warning before hand if he is intending on bringing a list spamming some op unit, you don't think he should I do think he should and thus I am glad I am not in your gaming circle.
If you turn up to your regular gaming club expecting a friendly game and your opponent has sammed any OP unit without giving you advance warning then yeh under the rules he has done nothing wrong but I know morally and under a 'gentlemans' agreement he has. It is the same as if an opponent has found out your exact army list and decided to tailor an army to beat it, he has broken no rules but morally what he is doing is not right.
We could compare it to FIFA which someone did previously. If I went online and wanted to play a friendly game with my friend and I picked a normal team and he picked his dream team where he has picked the best players in the world to be on that team, yes he has not broken any rules but we all know he should have said in advance he was going to be using his super team rather than a normal team.
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Talys wrote: Well, there's nothing to say that you have to play at all, and what's someone going to do, hold a gun to your head? If you show up at a game expecting one thing, and the person has brought something else, you can simply say, "Dude, that's not what I'm expecting. We can meet up again, but this will be a waste of time."
Easier said then done. Easy to say you will just cancel the game butyou don't know how long that player has spent travelling to his gaming club to play, how much money he has spent getting there, how reguarly he can play so when he would be able to play again in the future etc.
I hope you also give your opponent warning that you're bringing a weak list.
I'd also hardly call bringing three vendettas OP spam.
I like your moral high ground comment. You are not any more right in this situation than your opponent. If you expect a certain type of game, you have to make that abundantly clear. If you failed to do that, you're the only one to blame.
Blacksails wrote: I hope you also give your opponent warning that you're bringing a weak list.
I'd also hardly call bringing three vendettas OP spam.
I like your moral high ground comment. You are not any more right in this situation than your opponent. If you expect a certain type of game, you have to make that abundantly clear. If you failed to do that, you're the only one to blame.
Since when did I say I brought a weak list? I just never spammed OP units.
So what you are saying is players should turn up to friendly games with as much OP spam as possible without giving a polite notice to their opponent that their list is going to be competitive?
Since when did I say I brought a weak list? I just never spammed OP units.
From your posts, I gather you got tabled very early in the game, and seeing that Vendettas are not particularly OP, and that Knights are strong, but reasonable especially if there's only one, I'm going to assume one of two things. Either your opponent is leagues better than you, or your list lacked some fundamentals, thus making it a weak list.
You can twist that however you like, but being tabled before turn 4 in the face of three flyers and a Knight doesn't speak well to your list.
So what you are saying is players should turn up to friendly games with as much OP spam as possible without giving a polite notice to their opponent that their list is going to be competitive?
No, what I'm saying is that players should feel free to take whatever units their heart desires in whatever multiples they like without being told they're morally wrong. Unless you've made arrangements and clearly defined what kind of game you're looking for and restricted certain things or units, then you shouldn't be upset when someone brings an army better than yours. Likewise, your opponent could feel equally peeved with you for bringing such an underwhelming list and would be totally within sanity to ask that you make a better list.
Any requests, limitations, or changes you'd ask of your opponent, be prepared to do the same in return.
I'd say that if its a true "friendly" game, he would have given a "friendly" notice that he was. If both players agree and bring tough armies it can still be friendly.
I guess to me and my group keeping it friendly means leaving it a more level playing field. This doesn't stop our games from being competitive or having tough armies, but it does stop it from being lopsided. Cause no one enjoys a game like that, besides the f'n guy that brought all the swiss...
Since when did I say I brought a weak list? I just never spammed OP units.
From your posts, I gather you got tabled very early in the game, and seeing that Vendettas are not particularly OP, and that Knights are strong, but reasonable especially if there's only one, I'm going to assume one of two things. Either your opponent is leagues better than you, or your list lacked some fundamentals, thus making it a weak list.
You can twist that however you like, but being tabled before turn 4 in the face of three flyers and a Knight doesn't speak well to your list.
So what you are saying is players should turn up to friendly games with as much OP spam as possible without giving a polite notice to their opponent that their list is going to be competitive?
No, what I'm saying is that players should feel free to take whatever units their heart desires in whatever multiples they like without being told they're morally wrong. Unless you've made arrangements and clearly defined what kind of game you're looking for and restricted certain things or units, then you shouldn't be upset when someone brings an army better than yours. Likewise, your opponent could feel equally peeved with you for bringing such an underwhelming list and would be totally within sanity to ask that you make a better list.
Any requests, limitations, or changes you'd ask of your opponent, be prepared to do the same in return.
Don't assume I got tabled early on in the game or even tabled at all because I never said that.
So basically what you are saying is what I said earlier that you wouldn't follow any kind of moral code when you agree to a game, you would just turn up and spam whatever OP unit you desire without giving any kind of warning to your opponent that your list would be competitive.
So if I was to arrange a game with you your thought process and the convo would go like this:
Chamagne socialist: fancy a 1500 point game on sunday
blacksails: sure lets meet at 3pm
Champagne socialist thought process ' well it is just a friendly non-tournament game so even though I have 3 of these OP units and under the rules I can use all 3 I will just bring 1 because I want to keep the game friendly rather than turn it into a WAAC match.
Blacksails thought process: ' well he never asked if I was going to spam OP units and forget that it is a friendly game where the idea is to have fun so I am just going to bring whatever units I want without giving him any notice whatsoever that I am creating a cheese list, it's his own fault for not mentioning it in our conversation'.
So in essence your view is that unless your opponent specifically prohibits yo bringing cheese to a game you would bring as much cheese as possible and you would refuse to tell him before hand because he never asked. Major point being you would refuse to tell him before hand that you were going to be bringing an op cheese army so he could create a liost to give you a closer game and make the event far more fun for the both of you?
You seem fixated on "spamming op units."
It could be, "These units are awesome! I love 'em so I'll bring 'em."
Spam to one might not be spam to another. What's your definition of spam? Two? Three? Eight? Your definition might not be the same as your opponent's.
The fact that 40k isn't good for pick up games isn't either of yall's fault, but expecting a (close to) fair game with no discussion isn't going to happen.
Or in Dakka terms, you're hating the player instead of the appropriate target; the poorly balanced crap shoot that is 40k and the subsequent codex releases.
@champagne_socialist, are you trolling? Or is the looping hypocrisy accidental?
So your list wasn't weak? Then you shouldn't have struggled, because his list isn't that strong... vendettas are not a top tier unit anymore, and three is barely spamming (unless you think 3 Rhinos, 3 Chimeras, 3 Predators, 3 Stealth Suit squads etc spammy... which would be weird). If your list wasn't weak, as you keep implying, and if you weren't dominated, as you also keep insinuating, why the whine with the alleged cheese... can't have it both ways
.
What on earth was your friendly list... if your going to judge him so hard for his list, put it all on the table... his full list and yours. Not that it matters that much, because his is reasonable.
You didn't bring any anti flyer?
You didn't bring any anti armor?
You didn't plan for a big MC or SH?
If you did none of these things, you're just not building very wise lists. This is 40k now... you need those elements for just a pick up game. If you did have these... what's the complaint? That you lost? I don't see the issue here.
If nothing else, put on the big boy pants and see your role in this. You set no parameters at all, and are then upset that your opponent didn't read your mind on exactly the type of list you wanted to face? Are you a latch-key only child? What a completely unrealistic and unfair standard to hold someone to! Your imagined "good game", though not expressed, is what you expect people to match? Entitled much? Then, if your list is so weak against flyers AND an IK, say something before dice roll. Ask him to cut the Knight and you'll cut the same points from yours. You can't agree to play the game and then blast the guy on the internet when you didn't even take reasonable steps to let him balance his list a bit (though I still struggle to see what reasonable list can't handle either a SH or a few flyers).
I frequent 3 local clubs, know the meta of at least 4 others in IL, in all 7 of these, your opponents list is friendly enough. I don't condone list tailoring, but maybe you're just a little too predictable as a general. My opponents never see the same list twice (unless they ask to)... only an extra 500 points of alternates can really change the play style of a list in most Codices.
Three vendettas and an IK...I feel like it's just a matter of turtling at that point, that list has almost zero objective pressure at that point value. Just dump all your dudes out of any transports you've got, concentrate on wiping whatever he's got on the board that isn't the IK, if you remembered to bring some basic tactical flexibility in the form of deep strikers/out flankers or a solid high strength melee unit good on you you can gib the knight and it's game, if not just don't let the vehicles explode on anybody.
If I was gonna pick a flyer I hoped my opponent would bring, there are few options id place higher than a vendetta now that they only blow stuff up on a six. Just get your stuff into cover and bunker down.
I mean let's see an IK is like 350-400ish, and the flyers are somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 each, am I in the right ballpark here? That means he had 400 points actually on the board with the IK turn 1. If your list had NO anti heavy NO anti air then there's no reason for a single point of that to still be around turn 2.
If your infantry are spread 2" apart, and your vehicles are all parked in cover at the end of that turn 1 and he's got nothing or very little left to hold objectives, well that's pretty dang much game no matter what list you bring to the table.
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Martel732 wrote: 6 HPAV 13 is not exactly impervious to damage, either.
Yeah but if you're trying to fight it without a big damage spike you're unlikely to get it.
That's why pretty much every list I run has alt-deployment anti tank somewhere in it. There's generally gonna be something worth popping up behind and melta-ing/hay wiring the crap out of, doubly so if it's a Stupidheavy. Jump troops, outflanking fast squads, something. There's so many options for it and it makes the game so much more interesting, tbh if your fluffy list is so skewed you don't have even that bare minimum you're spamming too, just...worse.
Don't assume I got tabled early on in the game or even tabled at all because I never said that.
You didn't say it, but it was implied, especially when one of your examples was that being tabled on turn 2 isn't fun. That, and I'm sure you wouldn't be as upset about this if you weren't tabled.
So basically what you are saying is what I said earlier that you wouldn't follow any kind of moral code when you agree to a game, you would just turn up and spam whatever OP unit you desire without giving any kind of warning to your opponent that your list would be competitive.
First of all, a gaming moral code differs by person. What you're expecting is everyone to follow some arbitrary standard you've made up and not communicated.
Second of all, read what I wrote again. I said people should feel free to take whatever they like, unless a discussion was had that delineated what is acceptable and what isn't.
Third, 3 Vendettas and a Knight hardly classify as OP.
So if I was to arrange a game with you your thought process and the convo would go like this:
Chamagne socialist: fancy a 1500 point game on sunday
blacksails: sure lets meet at 3pm
If that's all you felt like discussing, sure. If you wanted to ensure further restrictions and have a detailed understanding of what power level is expected, than we'd talk more.
Champagne socialist thought process ' well it is just a friendly non-tournament game so even though I have 3 of these OP units and under the rules I can use all 3 I will just bring 1 because I want to keep the game friendly rather than turn it into a WAAC match.
Which is your decision to make. Nothing inherently right or wrong or superior about it.
Blacksails thought process: ' well he never asked if I was going to spam OP units and forget that it is a friendly game where the idea is to have fun so I am just going to bring whatever units I want without giving him any notice whatsoever that I am creating a cheese list, it's his own fault for not mentioning it in our conversation'.
No, because taking 3 Vendettas and a Knight are not cheese. In this scenario, my thought process would be along the lines of 'Gee, these are some cool units I'd love to use. Flyers are fairly common now, as are Knights, so my opponent probably made a list that covers the basics.'
That, and yes, it is your fault for not explaining you didn't want to face more than 1 flyer or superheavies.
Don't act morally superior for bringing a weak list.
So in essence your view is that unless your opponent specifically prohibits yo bringing cheese to a game you would bring as much cheese as possible and you would refuse to tell him before hand because he never asked. Major point being you would refuse to tell him before hand that you were going to be bringing an op cheese army so he could create a liost to give you a closer game and make the event far more fun for the both of you?
Again, cheese is incredibly subjective. I'd suggest you drop the term or this conversation isn't going to get anywhere. Further, vendettas are hardly overpowered, and Knights, while strong, should be a common consideration in list construction.
You're acting all indignant about list strength, but if I was in your opponent's shoe and read your thoughts about this scenario, I'd think pretty poorly of you. You're expecting people to conform to your arbitrary standard of fun/friendly lists without explaining what that is. I imagine the vast majority of people can't read minds, so the onus rests on your to explain to your opponent what kind of game you're looking for. Otherwise, build a better list that can handle things like Knights and Vendettas.
Maybe this is an opportunity for you to grow, rather than complain that people brought a strong list and you didn't.
OP: so you consider a Knight and 3 fliers 'cheese'. What makes you think your fried shares your opinion?
It's perfectly possible that simebody else has different standards for 'cheese' than you do. For example in the group where I play, a single knight and 3 fliers is definitely nothing to write home about.
Plus it is not like your opponent can do much. My most played opponent has a GK army, no matter what he takes he kills my army around turn 2-3 and makes it not work on turn1. Against a non IG army his GK are probably normal, for me they super unfun, but it is not his foult that GW decided to make a 4 units codex for him.
And he doesn't even tailor his list against me, his list is TAC.
I guess that w40k stoped being a game you could just pick up and play with someone and turned in to some sort of LARP where before playing you have to go through the process of you and your opponent buying and making armies the way any possible opponents may want to play. Good for good TAC armies or armies that are just good no matter what you take and bad for everyone else.
champagne_socialist wrote: recently played a game where my opponent brought quite a tough army. We agreed on 1500 points and so I made a fun list thinking it was a friendly game as we never said we were bringing cheese. So I turn up to the game and he shows me his army list and he has 3 flyers and an Imperial Knight.
Well he said that he brought the list because he wanted to try the models but then later in the evening I heard him saying to another player that he brought the list because he saw me play the week before and saw what i brang and wanted to bring a list that would beat me eg tailoring his army to beat me.
Problem: Complete lack of communication. You and your "buddy" did not have the same idea of what kind of game you're going to play. You need to discuss this in more detail in the future. Him tailoring his army is irrelevant to this particular encounter since you didn't clearly specify that you wanted a "fluffy" or "fun" game. That's 100% on you. You need to tell your opponent what kind of game you're looking for, but be much more specific than "fun". Fun to me is 2 painted armies and a friendly opponent, regardless of how good a general or how tough an army.
Solution: Open your pie hole for something other than ding-dongs. Come to an agreement on the kind of game to play. If you and your opponent can't, then shake his hand anyway and move on.
yeah, but let say OP tells his buddy he wants a fun and fluffy game. And his opponent brings the exact same list. Because what is unfluffy in IG with 3 valks and the knights codex clearly stats they fight alongside anyone. And what is unfun in winning games, so why not tailor if you can.
Makumba wrote: yeah, but let say OP tells his buddy he wants a fun and fluffy game. And his opponent brings the exact same list. Because what is unfluffy in IG with 3 valks and the knights codex clearly stats they fight alongside anyone. And what is unfun in winning games, so why not tailor if you can.
That is why you use better words than fluffy/fun. Further, if you agree to X and he doesn't do X, then don't play him anymore. You two obviously have different ideas of "fun". Nothing wrong with it, but don't waste time on games you don't enjoy.
Talys wrote: Well, there's nothing to say that you have to play at all, and what's someone going to do, hold a gun to your head? If you show up at a game expecting one thing, and the person has brought something else, you can simply say, "Dude, that's not what I'm expecting. We can meet up again, but this will be a waste of time."
Obviously you have a choice to enforce your house rule and refuse to play. The point is that you aren't being reasonable if you're expecting your opponent to read your mind and know that you demand advance warning for taking certain arbitrary classes of units. This isn't 5th edition anymore, superheavies and flyers are part of the normal game and it's entirely your fault if you're surprised by them. And if you feel so strongly about them that you need advance warning before anyone brings them to a game against you then you have the obligation to inform them in advance and allow them to make appropriate changes to their army (or just decide you're not worth the effort).
Hey, I'm with you in terms of what I consider "normal" behaviour. A person should be able to bring whatever legit units they want, and if you have any extraordinary requests (like no FMCs or no FW Knights, or whatever), you should make those clear -- or get a sense of their army first. However, if ther's a misunderstanding, and the other person's list is too cheesy, I might decline the game, which isn't a house rule; it's just my preference. I would also decline a game of golf against a group that plays at 4 under par, because it would be a really lousy game, and I'd just slow them down horribly, and I'd decline to ski with someone who wanted to do double diamonds, because, well, I'd kill myself. I don't think any of that is bad behaviour.
You probably didn't see my post in the other thread, but it's not all that different from the other person showing up with 2000 points of bare plastic. You'd give them a hard time; maybe some people wouldn't play with them -- I probably would, though I wouldn't be very happy about it, and would at least say something. Either way, RAW doesn't say, "models must be painted", so the other person isn't breaking any rules, or using an illegitimate model. They're just doing something that diminishes your enjoyment of 40k, and in my mind, if they do so, it's not within the realm of bad ettiquette to point it out (and potentially decline).
Don't assume I got tabled early on in the game or even tabled at all because I never said that.
You didn't say it, but it was implied, especially when one of your examples was that being tabled on turn 2 isn't fun. That, and I'm sure you wouldn't be as upset about this if you weren't tabled.
So basically what you are saying is what I said earlier that you wouldn't follow any kind of moral code when you agree to a game, you would just turn up and spam whatever OP unit you desire without giving any kind of warning to your opponent that your list would be competitive.
First of all, a gaming moral code differs by person. What you're expecting is everyone to follow some arbitrary standard you've made up and not communicated.
Second of all, read what I wrote again. I said people should feel free to take whatever they like, unless a discussion was had that delineated what is acceptable and what isn't.
Third, 3 Vendettas and a Knight hardly classify as OP.
So if I was to arrange a game with you your thought process and the convo would go like this:
Chamagne socialist: fancy a 1500 point game on sunday
blacksails: sure lets meet at 3pm
If that's all you felt like discussing, sure. If you wanted to ensure further restrictions and have a detailed understanding of what power level is expected, than we'd talk more.
Champagne socialist thought process ' well it is just a friendly non-tournament game so even though I have 3 of these OP units and under the rules I can use all 3 I will just bring 1 because I want to keep the game friendly rather than turn it into a WAAC match.
Which is your decision to make. Nothing inherently right or wrong or superior about it.
Blacksails thought process: ' well he never asked if I was going to spam OP units and forget that it is a friendly game where the idea is to have fun so I am just going to bring whatever units I want without giving him any notice whatsoever that I am creating a cheese list, it's his own fault for not mentioning it in our conversation'.
No, because taking 3 Vendettas and a Knight are not cheese. In this scenario, my thought process would be along the lines of 'Gee, these are some cool units I'd love to use. Flyers are fairly common now, as are Knights, so my opponent probably made a list that covers the basics.'
That, and yes, it is your fault for not explaining you didn't want to face more than 1 flyer or superheavies.
Don't act morally superior for bringing a weak list.
So in essence your view is that unless your opponent specifically prohibits yo bringing cheese to a game you would bring as much cheese as possible and you would refuse to tell him before hand because he never asked. Major point being you would refuse to tell him before hand that you were going to be bringing an op cheese army so he could create a liost to give you a closer game and make the event far more fun for the both of you?
Again, cheese is incredibly subjective. I'd suggest you drop the term or this conversation isn't going to get anywhere. Further, vendettas are hardly overpowered, and Knights, while strong, should be a common consideration in list construction.
You're acting all indignant about list strength, but if I was in your opponent's shoe and read your thoughts about this scenario, I'd think pretty poorly of you. You're expecting people to conform to your arbitrary standard of fun/friendly lists without explaining what that is. I imagine the vast majority of people can't read minds, so the onus rests on your to explain to your opponent what kind of game you're looking for. Otherwise, build a better list that can handle things like Knights and Vendettas.
Maybe this is an opportunity for you to grow, rather than complain that people brought a strong list and you didn't.
I think oit is common sense that if you are going to spam op units you let your oonent know.
I think oit is common sense that if you are going to spam op units you let your oonent know.
I think its common sense that if you are going to bring a weak list incapable of dealing with three not overpowered flyers and a Knight, you let your opponent know.
I think oit is common sense that if you are going to spam op units you let your oonent know.
That sort of depends on what the standard is for your gaming group. You can get around this in future by just asking what sort of list your opponent is bringing and any friendly restrictions you plan to impose. As has been pointed out, cheese is in the eye of the beholder, and one man's "fun themed list" is another's "cheese and spam sandwich". A brief conversation when you agree to the time and place of the game can help relieve these problems, even if it's as simple as "are we allowed to run formations? Are we going to bring LoWs?" For my own part, if I wanted to run a themed list that happened to include a lot of fliers or AV14 for example, I'd give my opponent fair warning in advance, but that's because I'm nice like that and not because I consider it mandatory behaviour unless asked. (I often send my opponent an outline of my list a day or two before the game, just so we don't wind up playing rock vs. paper and waste an evening of gaming on a game that's no fun.)
Another way you can help yourself is to change up your list from game to game, models permitting. It will be harder for an opponent to tailor his list against you in future if you do that. I'd say list tailoring is permissible, although someone that brings 45 burna boyz against a tyranid or blob guard army is being rather unsporting.
My group's rules are simple: no special characters without prior agreement, no superheavies without prior agreement, no "spam lists", and no proxying models for obvious advantage (no pretending your chimeras are wyverns so you can have three of them, for example, although proxying so you can try out a unit within reason is permitted on a case-by-case basis), formations need a warning though not necessarily permission, and unbound lists have to be approved before the game in their entirety.
We have a guy in our local area who brings cheese to every game. that is, he knows what everyone plays and exactly what models they own while he has a huge collection to choose from.
So he tailors his army with cheese that he knows his opponants are unable to counter. To every game and every game there is a "friendly" game as its just a bunch of us playing at one another's homes.
On top of this, he does not coach or give advice to the other players to help them become better players.
A while back, I spoke with one of the other players and told him that if it is not addressed, it will not change. So i brought a list with a knight a vendetta and a valkrie. I could have brought REAL cheese like a full knight army of 3 knights supported by a guard air brigade or something but I kept it medium just to give the guy competition and let them know i knew his number.
This was to demonstrate to the player i had spoken to that sometimes, when a player brings a cheese tourney style list to every single friendly game, you might have to tailor towards it to force him to lighten up or mix it up.
It could be that this is a similar case.
champagne_socialist wrote: If you turn up to your regular gaming club expecting a friendly game and your opponent has sammed any OP unit without giving you advance warning then yeh under the rules he has done nothing wrong but I know morally and under a 'gentlemans' agreement he has.
Why? Because he should have psychically devined what you consider unacceptable despite you not actually communicating this to him?
champagne_socialist wrote: So basically what you are saying is what I said earlier that you wouldn't follow any kind of moral code when you agree to a game, you would just turn up and spam whatever OP unit you desire without giving any kind of warning to your opponent that your list would be competitive.
No, what people are saying is that if you don't communicate with your opponent and agree on any sort of restrictions, then it's not unreasonable for your opponent to think that there are no restrictions in place on his choice of army.
'Morals' don't enter into it. You simply can't expect your opponent to know what you consider a fair and 'friendly' army if you don't actually discuss this with them.
It's unreasonable to expect your opponent to be a mind reader.
champagne_socialist wrote: Champagne socialist thought process ' well it is just a friendly non-tournament game so even though I have 3 of these OP units and under the rules I can use all 3 I will just bring 1 because I want to keep the game friendly rather than turn it into a WAAC match.
And this is your problem: you made a whole bunch of assumptions about how the game was going to work based on nothing more than the fact that there wasn't a cash prize, and you didn't bother to inform your opponent that you'd made these assumptions. If you want to play a game between armies of a certain power level (let's stop calling it "cheese" vs. "fun") then you need to clearly state that desire and negotiate with your opponent. If you just assume that they're going to bring the kind of army that you want to play against and get outraged if they don't then you are being unreasonable.
Warhammer 40k would be better off adopting smaller points games and two list pairs with character/unique wargear restrictions. And also ditching the "play to lose" mentality hidden inside the "Forge the Narrative" nonsense that people hitch their cart on.
It's an imbalanced game to the extreme. People playing a game will naturally want to play to win. The person calling "cheese" is playing to lose, or rather wants to win by their own definitions and expects other to follow that versus what's plainly in the rulebook. The failing is that the 40k rules gives those wafflers the power to pitch a fit to do so instead of being hard and fast like most other games and allowing diversion for anyone wanting to do so otherwise.
So no cheese exists. Until there's rules that specifically disallow spam, its part of the game. And in fact, the rules for 7E made that notion even more prevalent.
@OP: The answer is OF COURSE he should have asked or at least gave warning. The guy knew what he was up to, as evidenced by his later comments. Many of these replies imply that being a game-spoiling arse is okay because of 7th edition or whatever... Gimme a break.
What is "cheese"? Grav-Cent-Draigo-Loth-star? Wave-Serpent Spam? D-weapons with Ignore Cover? Reaver Titans?
I can understand some things not being fun to face when you're not expecting it, but 3 mediocre flyers and a single knight is far, far, far from "OP. Any decent list should be able to deal with it with a competent general.
A simple "sorry, dude I'm not going to play against that, I've got nothing in my list to deal with that. If you have another list on hand I'd be happy to play it, but I'd rather play against that guy over there." Goes a long way.
Sorry OP, but there is no reason why your opponent shouldn't have been allowed to take their list against yours if you didn't specify the limitations. They could've taken an all Riptide list, and you still wouldn't have been able to complain morally as, without further clarification and house ruling, that list is also legal.
Besides, I could make a fluffy high tier army that would be very fun to play as: All Titans army!
brendan wrote: @OP: The answer is OF COURSE he should have asked or at least gave warning. The guy knew what he was up to, as evidenced by his later comments. Many of these replies imply that being a game-spoiling arse is okay because of 7th edition or whatever... Gimme a break.
I think the consensus is that the actual list the OP's opponent brought was not really over-powered or cheesy, and that if the OP wanted to impose restrictions on army selection above what's included in the rules he should have explicitly said so in advance. It's not like the guy brought FW stuff or anything especially game-breaking. It was a list that the OP couldn't really deal with, but that doesn't make it cheesy. By all means, ask him to limit himself to units that won't just wipe you out turn two as a friendly compromise, but do so explicitly in advance. He's not being "that guy" by bringing three vendettas and a knight, units that are tough to deal with but by no means fundamentally unbalanced. It's not like he brought five wave serpents, or four flyrants, or three wraithknights, or three riptides, etc.
Bringing cheese to a game of only acceptable if you bring enough cheese and crackers along for everyone. Otherwise you should just leave and go have your picnic alone in the carpark.
In reality though, only take it if it's for a competition - otherwise you'll likely sour a good game for the opponent.
Here is a question, you might have assumed it was a game where you wouldn't bring powerful stuff. But your friend might have had the opposite assumption.
Also, a friendly game doesn't mean you aren't trying to win. It means two buddies are going to play a game they enjoy, which doesn't mean they won't bring their best list.
Yea it's true I might assume it's a game where you wouldn't bring powerful stuff and sure my friend might choose to bring some Stilton - but that's their choice and it just makes it clearer that they aren't as attune to what people think is relaxed or otherwise - I'd still play them. Either they will realise just how cheesy it is and choose something else in future, or they are a cheesemonger - in which case feel free to escalate.
That's why it helps to play people multiple times and get to know them.
That and talking through lists beforehand and coming up with a narrative / story for it that doesn't involve super heavies and their ilk (etc)
You're just coming from the assumption that that point of view is wrong. When you should also consider his position.
Maybe he wanted to have a more competitive game, and then you show up with this soft list that couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag. Thats not fun for either party, and you are both at fault.
You should clearly communicate what you want to play beforehand. And ditch the attitude that bringing competitive options is "beardy" "bad" or "wrong". Frankly, I think not bringing your absolute best is insulting to your opponent.
You're just coming from the assumption that that point of view is wrong. When you should also consider his position.
Maybe he wanted to have a more competitive game, and then you show up with this soft list that couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag. Thats not fun for either party, and you are both at fault.
You should clearly communicate what you want to play beforehand. And ditch the attitude that bringing competitive options is "beardy" "bad" or "wrong". Frankly, I think not bringing your absolute best is insulting to your opponent.
Telling me I'm wrong doesn't make you right.
You seem to be missing the point - I talk to my friends and we come up with what's acceptable together over time as we play with each other. You work out what someone likes to play by playing with them. Lists will change as people buy new models based on looks or stats.
I'll also say it now, making out that I have a bad attitude, that I assume being competitive is ''beardy, bad or wrong'' is really jerkish. You should read what you're writing to people and assess your tone as it's insulting.
You're just coming from the assumption that that point of view is wrong. When you should also consider his position.
Maybe he wanted to have a more competitive game, and then you show up with this soft list that couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag. Thats not fun for either party, and you are both at fault.
You should clearly communicate what you want to play beforehand. And ditch the attitude that bringing competitive options is "beardy" "bad" or "wrong". Frankly, I think not bringing your absolute best is insulting to your opponent.
Telling me I'm wrong doesn't make you right.
You seem to be missing the point - I talk to my friends and we come up with what's acceptable together over time as we play with each other. You work out what someone likes to play by playing with them. Lists will change as people buy new models based on looks or stats.
I'll also say it now, making out that I have a bad attitude, that I assume being competitive is ''beardy, bad or wrong'' is really jerkish. You should read what you're writing to people and assess your tone as it's insulting.
That attitude is common in 40k players though. "Wanting to win is bad!" That's a uniquely GW thing. You'll have to forgive him if he thought you were implying that because the OP kind of did.
Grey Templar wrote: Here is a question, you might have assumed it was a game where you wouldn't bring powerful stuff. But your friend might have had the opposite assumption.
Also, a friendly game doesn't mean you aren't trying to win. It means two buddies are going to play a game they enjoy, which doesn't mean they won't bring their best list.
No but it means if you are spamming op units to let the other player know so they can make an appropriate list.
champagne_socialist wrote: No but it means if you are spamming op units to let the other player know so they can make an appropriate list.
It means no such thing. All "friendly game" means is that we're going to play a game of 40k and there won't be any prize for the winner. It means absolutely nothing about the strength of our lists, so if you expect certain restrictions to be in place then you have the obligation to make those clear up front. It's entirely your fault if your opponent shows up with a list you don't like and you're "surprised" that they didn't read your mind and follow your arbitrary rules.
Any unit which can cause a lot of damage to a specific army and is extremely tough for that said army to deal any damage to it. Or in my case as my opponent knew my army list it would be any unit that can deal a lot of damage to that list and that list would find it hard to deal damage back.
champagne_socialist wrote: No but it means if you are spamming op units to let the other player know so they can make an appropriate list.
It means no such thing. All "friendly game" means is that we're going to play a game of 40k and there won't be any prize for the winner. It means absolutely nothing about the strength of our lists, so if you expect certain restrictions to be in place then you have the obligation to make those clear up front. It's entirely your fault if your opponent shows up with a list you don't like and you're "surprised" that they didn't read your mind and follow your arbitrary rules.
A friendly game means that you keep it FAIR and keeping it fair means informing your opponent that you wish to try out a competitive build so that he can create an appropriate list.
champagne_socialist wrote: No but it means if you are spamming op units to let the other player know so they can make an appropriate list.
It means no such thing. All "friendly game" means is that we're going to play a game of 40k and there won't be any prize for the winner. It means absolutely nothing about the strength of our lists, so if you expect certain restrictions to be in place then you have the obligation to make those clear up front. It's entirely your fault if your opponent shows up with a list you don't like and you're "surprised" that they didn't read your mind and follow your arbitrary rules.
A friendly game means that you keep it FAIR and keeping it fair means informing your opponent that you wish to try out a competitive build so that he can create an appropriate list.
Thats an odd definition of "friendly". If I go play a pick-up game, thats friendly to me. Doesn't matter what our lists are.
champagne_socialist wrote: Any unit which can cause a lot of damage to a specific army and is extremely tough for that said army to deal any damage to it. Or in my case as my opponent knew my army list it would be any unit that can deal a lot of damage to that list and that list would find it hard to deal damage back.
IOW, you don't have a clear definition for "overpowered unit" and you expect your opponent to read your mind about what kind of things you want them to bring.
A friendly game means that you keep it FAIR and keeping it fair means informing your opponent that you wish to try out a competitive build so that he can create an appropriate list.
No it doesn't. You keep imagining these rules about army construction, but they're still just your personal rules. If you want your next game to include a "warn me if you're bringing a competitive list" rule then you need to say "my list is pretty weak, could you try to match that power level" when you're arranging the game. If you don't make that desire explicit then you have only yourself to blame when your opponent doesn't follow your rules.
(And of course then you have the question of what a "competitive" list is, something few people will ever agree on.)
A friendly game means that you keep it FAIR and keeping it fair means informing your opponent that you wish to try out a competitive build so that he can create an appropriate list.
And yet you continue to ignore your contribution to the game.
Do you agree or disagree that you should equally inform your opponent you intend to bring a sub par list incapable of dealing some fairly basic units?
Once more, if you expect your opponent to change their list, you have to be ready to compromise and build a better list too.
champagne_socialist wrote: No but it means if you are spamming op units to let the other player know so they can make an appropriate list.
It means no such thing. All "friendly game" means is that we're going to play a game of 40k and there won't be any prize for the winner. It means absolutely nothing about the strength of our lists, so if you expect certain restrictions to be in place then you have the obligation to make those clear up front. It's entirely your fault if your opponent shows up with a list you don't like and you're "surprised" that they didn't read your mind and follow your arbitrary rules.
A friendly game means that you keep it FAIR and keeping it fair means informing your opponent that you wish to try out a competitive build so that he can create an appropriate list.
Thats an odd definition of "friendly". If I go play a pick-up game, thats friendly to me. Doesn't matter what our lists are.
It is not odd in the slightest, it is common sense. A friendly game means having a game for a bit of fun. How can you get the most fun out of 40k? that is by having a close game with 2 evenly matched sides and therefore if one player wants to bring a tournament style list he should inform the other.
A friendly game means that you keep it FAIR and keeping it fair means informing your opponent that you wish to try out a competitive build so that he can create an appropriate list.
And yet you continue to ignore your contribution to the game.
Do you agree or disagree that you should equally inform your opponent you intend to bring a sub par list incapable of dealing some fairly basic units?
Once more, if you expect your opponent to change their list, you have to be ready to compromise and build a better list too.
You don't know my list so your post is irrelevant.
Once again, read my post. The point and the question in it stand regardless of your list. If you are having difficulties understanding my posts, let me know and I'll clarify.
Here's the run down of my points:
1) Post your list so we can see how good or bad it is
2) If you expect your opponent to change their list to suit your needs, you need to compromise and change yours to suit theirs
3) Friendly is subjective, cheese is subjective
Once again, read my post. The point and the question in it stand regardless of your list. If you are having difficulties understanding my posts, let me know and I'll clarify.
Here's the run down of my points:
1) Post your list so we can see how good or bad it is
2) If you expect your opponent to change their list to suit your needs, you need to compromise and change yours to suit theirs
3) Friendly is subjective, cheese is subjective
My list is irrelevant to the question I asked which was should you expect your opponent to give you a polite warning if he is bringing a tournament styled list to a friendly non competition game...
Never said the opponent should change his army, just a bit of advance notice would be nice so I can create an approriate list. And yes that goes the other way as well if I was going to be running an army of servitors I would tell my opponent that i was bringing a weak list for a bit of a 'laugh' so that he could A) decide if he still wants to play and B) create an appropriate list so that the game we have is fun.
My list is irrelevant to the question I asked which was should you expect your opponent to give you a polite warning if he is bringing a tournament styled list to a friendly non competition game...
It is relevant, because from the knowledge we have, your opponent's list hardly sounds tournament style, which leads me to believe you brought a rather sub par list. Its relevant because had you brought a better list capable of dealing with two fairly common units you wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.
Never said the opponent should change his army, just a bit of advance notice would be nice so I can create an approriate list. And yes that goes the other way as well if I was going to be running an army of servitors I would tell my opponent that i was bringing a weak list for a bit of a 'laugh' so that he could A) decide if he still wants to play and B) create an appropriate list so that the game we have is fun.
Notice is fine, and really you should be having a discussion anyways if you're so concerned about power levels. I'm glad you finally answered my question.
CS, you're going off the assumption that weak fluffly lists are the norm and that competitive is the different variable that should be the exception.
He might have been going off the notion that competitive builds are the norm and if you were bringing a less than competitive build you should have warned him.
Once again, read my post. The point and the question in it stand regardless of your list. If you are having difficulties understanding my posts, let me know and I'll clarify.
Here's the run down of my points:
1) Post your list so we can see how good or bad it is
2) If you expect your opponent to change their list to suit your needs, you need to compromise and change yours to suit theirs
3) Friendly is subjective, cheese is subjective
My list is irrelevant to the question I asked which was should you expect your opponent to give you a polite warning if he is bringing a tournament styled list to a friendly non competition game...
Never said the opponent should change his army, just a bit of advance notice would be nice so I can create an approriate list. And yes that goes the other way as well if I was going to be running an army of servitors I would tell my opponent that i was bringing a weak list for a bit of a 'laugh' so that he could A) decide if he still wants to play and B) create an appropriate list so that the game we have is fun.
You seem to be latching on to a few people's comments and missing the great number of people giving you constructive advice for avoiding this situation in future. The consensus, I believe, is as follows:
1. Three vendettas and a knight is not overpowered or tournament-style, so you and your opponent just have a different understanding of "cheese". This isn't a case of your opponent being TFG, it appears to be a simple miscommunication
2. Tailoring a list to beat your list from last week isn't really unsporting if it's not ridiculous, which is difficult to determine without knowing your list
3. In order to avoid this situation in future, agree with your opponent in advance not to bring superheavies or whatever it is you don't like about his list.
What is it you're after here? Are you looking for a way to avoid this in future, or do you just want a bunch of people to agree with you that the other guy was being a jerk? I ask because realistically I think you're only going to get one of those here, and you've already got it.
For the first few games, I would say bring fluffy lists that you think are fun to play.
If they consistently come with tournament lists designed to utterly destroy the opposition as though their lives are at stake, you are left with a decision.
1. discontinue playing this person.
The story ends there but opponents can sometimes be hard to find....
2. play the game their way and "fight fire with fire". This way, you might be able to show them what its like and force them to tone it down OR they will see it as a challenge (you wont have to worry about them "amping it up" if they are already set at full world tourney mode.
In the case of the former, you continue playing and keeping an eye out. In the case of the latter, you get the chance to keep your skills sharpened for the time you do go to a tourney.
3. Sit down and talk with your opponent and discuss your different goals and approaches to the game and hammer out a set of house rules on these topics that you can both agree to.
Wulfmar wrote: Yea it's true I might assume it's a game where you wouldn't bring powerful stuff and sure my friend might choose to bring some Stilton - but that's their choice and it just makes it clearer that they aren't as attune to what people think is relaxed or otherwise ...
Why would you assume that, rather than that it makes it clearer that you aren't 'attuned' to what people think is relaxed or otherwise?
Wulfmar wrote: You seem to be missing the point - I talk to my friends and we come up with what's acceptable together over time as we play with each other. You work out what someone likes to play by playing with them. Lists will change as people buy new models based on looks or stats.
And that's exactly the point... The OP is expecting his opponent to know that he considers certain unit overpowered and that this means they shouldn't be taken in 'friendly' games without that communication taking place.
He's making the same assumption that you did in your previous post: Namely - 'My opponent has a different opinion to mine as to what's acceptable in a 'friendly' game... and so his opinion is wrong.'
When in reality, neither of you is 'wrong'... you just have different opinions of what is acceptable, and didn't take the time before the game to communicate and establish that fact and decide on a happy middle ground.
You can't just assume, without any communication, that your opponent is going to be expecting the same thing from the game as you are.
MWHistorian wrote: CS, you're going off the assumption that weak fluffly lists are the norm and that competitive is the different variable that should be the exception.
He might have been going off the notion that competitive builds are the norm and if you were bringing a less than competitive build you should have warned him.
Exactly. OP, you have no right to assume that lists of the same power level as yours are the default, and anyone who wants to deviate from that default needs to give advance warning. If you care so much about matching power level then you have the obligation to negotiate it.
You know I usually go with a mix of cheeses and some crackers, but what I think really works best for friendly games is maybe like a cheese and meat tray their inexpensive their not generally to messy and it avoids getting cracker crumbs on the table.
Wulfmar wrote: Yea it's true I might assume it's a game where you wouldn't bring powerful stuff and sure my friend might choose to bring some Stilton - but that's their choice and it just makes it clearer that they aren't as attune to what people think is relaxed or otherwise ...
Why would you assume that, rather than that it makes it clearer that you aren't 'attuned' to what people think is relaxed or otherwise?
Wulfmar wrote: You seem to be missing the point - I talk to my friends and we come up with what's acceptable together over time as we play with each other. You work out what someone likes to play by playing with them. Lists will change as people buy new models based on looks or stats.
And that's exactly the point... The OP is expecting his opponent to know that he considers certain unit overpowered and that this means they shouldn't be taken in 'friendly' games without that communication taking place.
He's making the same assumption that you did in your previous post: Namely - 'My opponent has a different opinion to mine as to what's acceptable in a 'friendly' game... and so his opinion is wrong.'
When in reality, neither of you is 'wrong'... you just have different opinions of what is acceptable, and didn't take the time before the game to communicate and establish that fact and decide on a happy middle ground.
You can't just assume, without any communication, that your opponent is going to be expecting the same thing from the game as you are.
I appreciate it took you a long time to write that Insaniak, but you've assumed my posts were to the OP and didn't read the thread. Those were comments directed elsewhere at a different poster.
Additionally frustrating is that you also said I'm making assumptions about the game because I'm not communicating, much like the poster I had originally written that for. Please read carefully what I posted as you will see clearly I am saying that I speak to the other player- you even quoted me on it.
People are getting to trigger happy at snapping at others on this thread.
Wulfmar wrote: I appreciate it took you a long time to write that Insaniak, but you've assumed my posts were to the OP and didn't read the thread. Those were comments directed elsewhere at a different poster.
Yes, I know. I read the thread.
I didn't assume your posts were to the OP. That would have made them largely nonsensical.
Additionally frustrating is that you also said I'm making assumptions about the game because I'm not communicating, much like the poster I had originally written that for. Please read carefully what I posted as you will see clearly I am saying that I speak to the other player- you even quoted me on it..
Indeed I did. The part about not communicating was directed more at the OP. The 'assumption' that I attributed to you was that the other guy is in the wrong because he doesn't have the same approach to the game as you do... because that's exactly what you said.
I think it is the norm to bring a balanced list to a friendly game and the abnorm to bring a super tourny styled op spam list or the abnorm to bring a super weak useless list and therefore if the opponent plans on bringing the abnorm he should inform the other player.
You state many times that my opponent might not know what is op and what is useless but if you play 40k you know what units are powerful and op.
champagne_socialist wrote: I think it is the norm to bring a balanced list to a friendly game and the abnorm to bring a super tourny styled op spam list or the abnorm to bring a super weak useless list and therefore if the opponent plans on bringing the abnorm he should inform the other player.
That's a norm that only exists in your own mind. It is not a universal truth that you can expect everyone else to follow.
champagne_socialist wrote: I think it is the norm to bring a balanced list to a friendly game and the abnorm to bring a super tourny styled op spam list or the abnorm to bring a super weak useless list and therefore if the opponent plans on bringing the abnorm he should inform the other player.
Then it would be a good idea for you to commicate this belief to prospective opponents.
If you don't, then you can't expect that they will believe in the same 'norm' that you do.
You state many times that my opponent might not know what is op and what is useless but if you play 40k you know what units are powerful and op.
If that were true, we wouldn't have so many threads from people asking if this unit or that unit is any good.
But. whether or not something is or isn't overpowered is only half of the issue. The other half is whether or not a unit being overpowered means you should check with your opponent before using it. You think it does... but regardless of how many times you may insist it's 'the norm', this simply isn't a universally-held belief.
You want your opponent to know what sort of game you want to play without you having to communicate with them. And that's simply not going to happen.
When I challenge someone to a game, all I expect to see is a coherent force. Your opponent brought an army with a single Faction, which is totally legal in the rules, is not particularly powerful in-game, and can be justified fluff-wise as a scalpel; a single high-power tool going out to fulfil a specific objective, which suddenly came across a foe it hadn't anticipated so radio'd for support. Naturally, the aircraft were the only things that could respond and mobilize to help with the threat in a reasonable timescale.
Did you consider playing to the opponent's weaknesses? A single scoring model is barely a threat in most missions. Tie it up with a blob and you're laughing.
In fairness, there are some Unbound lists that I would object to facing without warning; if someone brought two Flyrants, two Riptides and filled out with level 3 Heralds of Tzeentch at 1000, I would feel a bit peeved. I'd give it a go, though, I'd play to their weaknesses, and after the game I would discuss my expectations with the other player.
If, on the other hand, I brought a reasonable army, powerful but justifiably so (say a Daemon list with a Lord of Change, two Heralds of Tzeentch, two Horror squads and a Flesh Hound unit for early pressure) and my opponent brought a weak list with no way to deal with basic threats in the modern game such as a flying Psychic support unit, followed by him bitching about me behind my back for not playing to his apparent assumption that we wouldn't take anything that an average Tactical Squad isn't equipped to deal with... I'd also be peeved.
You're only presenting one side of the story. Why do you think we want you to post your list? For me, at least, it's a simple matter of finding out if your assumptions were reasonable. You also can't reasonably refuse to post your list, get annoyed at us for making false deductions abut it based on what you have said, and then expect us to take your corner.
This entire discussion is about communication, and your attitude in this thread demonstrates that you're as much to blame for a lack of clarity as yur opponent. This whole thing could have been avoided if you'd said "I prefer to play battleforged, and just to let you know I'll be bringing a comparatively soft list" - at that point, your opponent knows your assumptions (roughly) and that bringing something that's Unbound and tightly-focused is not what you're looking for. At that point, you have the right to be annoyed.
I'm nearly certain the OP is trolling, but I want to add my thoughts on this as a new player.
I only have 1000 points of space wolves and I've played 10 games. Before I play someone I let them know that I'm still learning the game and they usually bring stuff that isn't too tough. However, last week I played against tau and before the game the guy asked if he could bring a riptide, I said sure and we started the game. It was completely one-sided, I got wiped hard. But I still had fun and I learned from some mistakes I made and where my list needs improvement. I'm hoping to play against that same list soon and trying new tactics.
The point is if it's within the rules and there are no agreed restrictions before the game then there is nothing wrong with it. I read all the time on here about "cheese" and "friendly" games but really all I get when I hear that is you didn't bring a strong army.
champagne_socialist wrote: I think it is the norm to bring a balanced list to a friendly game and the abnorm to bring a super tourny styled op spam list or the abnorm to bring a super weak useless list and therefore if the opponent plans on bringing the abnorm he should inform the other player.
You state many times that my opponent might not know what is op and what is useless but if you play 40k you know what units are powerful and op.
1. You and your opponent did not come to an agreement on the type of game you wanted to play. Friendly or competitive
2. Throwing around labels like "Super Tourny" and "Super Weak" is useless. The list you described your opponent of taking is laughable in any competitive tournament.
3. Discuss the type of game you want before hand. If you and your opponent can't agree, then put on your big boy pants, shake his hand, and play someone else.
ing and being jerks. They just genuinely believed I had brought cheese.
