Just wondering about what the Emperor knew about Omegon (if he knew anything) and how it all comes together. Please elaborate on your thoughts.
My opinion (for what it's worth) is that he was not intentionally created, he was scattered and the Emperor didn't know about them. Think about it, why would the Emperor create a split Primarch? Why didn't he inform loyalists with the valuable piece of information about the Alpha Legion that is their greatest secret? You know "They have two Primarchs" or "If there is an Alpha, there must be an Omega" or "Why do you think their symbol is a Hydra?" etc.
I chose that the emporer knew about him (looked in the tank and saw two), though did not intentionally create him (why would he split one Primarch on purpose?), and he was scattered (The emporer would have made him a general otherwise).
natpri771 wrote: Just wondering about what the Emperor knew about Omegon (if he knew anything) and how it all comes together. Please elaborate on your thoughts.
I choose Emperor didn't know about him and he was scatted. Some how Emperor didn’t know of his creation … maybe Chaos cultist or Chaos gods abducted it from the beginning… who knows.
natpri771 wrote: Just wondering about what the Emperor knew about Omegon (if he knew anything) and how it all comes together. Please elaborate on your thoughts.
I choose Emperor didn't know about him and he was scatted. Some how Emperor didn’t know of his creation … maybe Chaos cultist or Chaos gods abducted it from the beginning… who knows.
There is a part in the Horus Heresy trilogy where a second presense is felt inside the 20th legions tank. personally I think we can deduce from this, that the Emporer would have known about there being two Primarchs. That and when Alpharius was picked up, the Emporer would probably have known instantly
I personally cant believe the Emperor didnt know about him. About 50/50 on the intent, could see it being on purpose but cant see solid motive/benefit for creating a split primarch instead of just making a 21st. Also assume he was scattered with the rest of his brothers unless....
natpri771 wrote: Just wondering about what the Emperor knew about Omegon (if he knew anything) and how it all comes together. Please elaborate on your thoughts.
I choose Emperor didn't know about him and he was scatted. Some how Emperor didn’t know of his creation … maybe Chaos cultist or Chaos gods abducted it from the beginning… who knows.
There is a part in the Horus Heresy trilogy where a second presense is felt inside the 20th legions tank. personally I think we can deduce from this, that the Emporer would have known about there being two Primarchs. That and when Alpharius was picked up, the Emporer would probably have known instantly
Well then the OP need to be more clear about the point of Emperor's thought.
I don't know ... if he knew about it, it was never stated. He might have had a hunch... he was a psychic after all and if he detected only one soul...and saw two? His intention was to make one ... so this is debatable. It could have been an illusion or something from his POV... he needed more time to figure it out... then it all disappeared.
Is the OP talking Omegon or 2nd Primarch in the tube? Meaning that E knows about the identity of O. Yes, Emperor finally knows about the existence of Omegon during the Great Crusade (I think), but why... didn't he tell the other loyalist Primach during the Horus Heresy?
natpri771 wrote: Just wondering about what the Emperor knew about Omegon (if he knew anything) and how it all comes together. Please elaborate on your thoughts.
I choose Emperor didn't know about him and he was scatted. Some how Emperor didn’t know of his creation … maybe Chaos cultist or Chaos gods abducted it from the beginning… who knows.
There is a part in the Horus Heresy trilogy where a second presense is felt inside the 20th legions tank. personally I think we can deduce from this, that the Emporer would have known about there being two Primarchs. That and when Alpharius was picked up, the Emporer would probably have known instantly
Well then the OP need to be more clear about the point of Emperor's thought.
I don't know ... if he knew about it, it was never stated. He might have had a hunch... he was a psychic after all and if he detected only one soul...and saw two? His intention was to make one ... so this is debatable. It could have been an illusion or something from his POV... he needed more time to figure it out... then it all disappeared.
Is the OP talking Omegon or 2nd Primarch in the tube? Meaning that E knows about the identity of O. Yes, Emperor finally knows about the existence of Omegon during the Great Crusade (I think), but why... didn't he tell the other loyalist Primach during the Horus Heresy?
Because the Emperor didn't tell the loyal Primarchs anything during the Heresy. He was sorting out the mess Magnus had made. The only person he spoke to I think was Corax, and only briefly. I don't even know if Malcador spoke to him.
natpri771 wrote: Just wondering about what the Emperor knew about Omegon (if he knew anything) and how it all comes together. Please elaborate on your thoughts.
I choose Emperor didn't know about him and he was scatted. Some how Emperor didn’t know of his creation … maybe Chaos cultist or Chaos gods abducted it from the beginning… who knows.
There is a part in the Horus Heresy trilogy where a second presense is felt inside the 20th legions tank. personally I think we can deduce from this, that the Emporer would have known about there being two Primarchs. That and when Alpharius was picked up, the Emporer would probably have known instantly
Well then the OP need to be more clear about the point of Emperor's thought.
I don't know ... if he knew about it, it was never stated. He might have had a hunch... he was a psychic after all and if he detected only one soul...and saw two? His intention was to make one ... so this is debatable. It could have been an illusion or something from his POV... he needed more time to figure it out... then it all disappeared.
Is the OP talking Omegon or 2nd Primarch in the tube? Meaning that E knows about the identity of O. Yes, Emperor finally knows about the existence of Omegon during the Great Crusade (I think), but why... didn't he tell the other loyalist Primach during the Horus Heresy?
Because the Emperor didn't tell the loyal Primarchs anything during the Heresy. He was sorting out the mess Magnus had made. The only person he spoke to I think was Corax, and only briefly. I don't even know if Malcador spoke to him.
Seriously, any topics about the Alpha legion and their Primach(s) are pointless because GW made it so mysterious that you can interpreted any way you want. Omegon was a new edition to the fluff about 8 years ago?...Before that ... this was not even a part of the mystery.
Seriously, any topics about the Alpha legion and their Primach(s) are pointless because GW made it so mysterious that you can interpreted any way you want.
While a 'definitive' answer may now be difficult and may in fact never be given, I'd say that discussion about the Alpha Legion and there background is about as far from 'pointless' now more than ever!
Is the OP talking Omegon or 2nd Primarch in the tube? Meaning that E knows about the identity of O. Yes, Emperor finally knows about the existence of Omegon during the Great Crusade (I think), but why... didn't he tell the other loyalist Primach during the Horus Heresy?
Perhaps because Omegon was meant to be a double agent inside the Alpha Legion by that point, and you don't usually want people knowing who your spies are. That and during a good portion of the Heresy, they weren't sure who among the loyalists were actually loyal. Vengeful Spirit has Malcador makes a remark that 'It seems the Warriors of the Lion stand with us.' clearly they dont know where the others stand, and I believe both sides of the War were eagerly waiting for the White Scars to chose a side. So like I was saying, when you aren't sure if the Loyalists are Loyal, you don't want to give away things.
That or Omegon wasn't a spy, but the Emps hoped his sons would be smart enough to notice there are two guys that are more remarkably like Primarchs than all the Marines that are trying to imitate Primarchs. That's the one thing about the Alpha Legion at present that is odd to me, the warriors doing their whole look like Alpharius thing, when there is clearly a size difference.
beast_gts wrote: Didn't Horus find Alpharius (& Omegon) rather than E?
We don't know. There's three origin stories for Alpharius in Extermination, and it says they're all lies. So whether one is true, they're all true, they're all lies... We don't know.
Seriously, any topics about the Alpha legion and their Primach(s) are pointless because GW made it so mysterious that you can interpreted any way you want.
While a 'definitive' answer may now be difficult and may in fact never be given, I'd say that discussion about the Alpha Legion and there background is about as far from 'pointless' now more than ever!
You mean as in very beneficial, sensible, and meaningful? This is really about subjective entertainment and thought-provoking.
beast_gts wrote: Didn't Horus find Alpharius (& Omegon) rather than E?
We don't know. There's three origin stories for Alpharius in Extermination, and it says they're all lies. So whether one is true, they're all true, they're all lies... We don't know.
Or Horus Found him after the Emperor never released him and Omegon was always with him but they were also lost through the warp and Horus found them first while the Emperor was busy never losing them to begin with.
That or Omegon wasn't a spy, but the Emps hoped his sons would be smart enough to notice there are two guys that are more remarkably like Primarchs than all the Marines that are trying to imitate Primarchs. That's the one thing about the Alpha Legion at present that is odd to me, the warriors doing their whole look like Alpharius thing, when there is clearly a size difference
Remember that Alpha Legion also produced quite a few larger than average astartes. In Legion, Sheed Ranko is indicated to being very close to the same height as Alpharius (actually Omegon) if not the same and in The Serpent Beneath Sheed Ranko is clearly of a stature similar enough that whilst helmeted, other Legionnaires are convinced he's Omegon.
Also, Seventh Serpent seems to indicate that Alpharius is only slightly taller than the average astartes as indicated when he's imitating Meduson.
The imitation game amongst the Alpha Legion probably works best when working with or against regular humans of whom the vast majority have never seen an astartes before so wouldn't exactly know the difference between a primarch and an astartes.
Seriously, any topics about the Alpha legion and their Primach(s) are pointless because GW made it so mysterious that you can interpreted any way you want.
While a 'definitive' answer may now be difficult and may in fact never be given, I'd say that discussion about the Alpha Legion and there background is about as far from 'pointless' now more than ever!
You mean as in very beneficial, sensible, and meaningful? This is really about subjective entertainment and thought-provoking.
Seriously, any topics about the Alpha legion and their Primach(s) are pointless because GW made it so mysterious that you can interpreted any way you want.
While a 'definitive' answer may now be difficult and may in fact never be given, I'd say that discussion about the Alpha Legion and there background is about as far from 'pointless' now more than ever!
You mean as in very beneficial, sensible, and meaningful? This is really about subjective entertainment and thought-provoking.
No kidding?
Please continue to enjoy the beneficial and meaningful of Omegon mystery discussion.
That or Omegon wasn't a spy, but the Emps hoped his sons would be smart enough to notice there are two guys that are more remarkably like Primarchs than all the Marines that are trying to imitate Primarchs. That's the one thing about the Alpha Legion at present that is odd to me, the warriors doing their whole look like Alpharius thing, when there is clearly a size difference
Remember that Alpha Legion also produced quite a few larger than average astartes. In Legion, Sheed Ranko is indicated to being very close to the same height as Alpharius (actually Omegon) if not the same and in The Serpent Beneath Sheed Ranko is clearly of a stature similar enough that whilst helmeted, other Legionnaires are convinced he's Omegon.
Also, Seventh Serpent seems to indicate that Alpharius is only slightly taller than the average astartes as indicated when he's imitating Meduson.
The imitation game amongst the Alpha Legion probably works best when working with or against regular humans of whom the vast majority have never seen an astartes before so wouldn't exactly know the difference between a primarch and an astartes.
And then there's elevator shoes
Fair point.
I'd still however suspect that other Primarchs should be able to tell the difference, though that is questionable as well considering the questionable events surrounding Alpharius' death. From what I am gathering through a little digging, it seems that Omegon has been subtly working against Alpharius. I wonder if any of the other Alphas are helping with that.
Also apparently there is a theory that Omegon is Janus of the Grey Knights.
That or Omegon wasn't a spy, but the Emps hoped his sons would be smart enough to notice there are two guys that are more remarkably like Primarchs than all the Marines that are trying to imitate Primarchs. That's the one thing about the Alpha Legion at present that is odd to me, the warriors doing their whole look like Alpharius thing, when there is clearly a size difference
Remember that Alpha Legion also produced quite a few larger than average astartes. In Legion, Sheed Ranko is indicated to being very close to the same height as Alpharius (actually Omegon) if not the same and in The Serpent Beneath Sheed Ranko is clearly of a stature similar enough that whilst helmeted, other Legionnaires are convinced he's Omegon.
Also, Seventh Serpent seems to indicate that Alpharius is only slightly taller than the average astartes as indicated when he's imitating Meduson.
The imitation game amongst the Alpha Legion probably works best when working with or against regular humans of whom the vast majority have never seen an astartes before so wouldn't exactly know the difference between a primarch and an astartes.
And then there's elevator shoes
Fair point.
I'd still however suspect that other Primarchs should be able to tell the difference, though that is questionable as well considering the questionable events surrounding Alpharius' death. From what I am gathering through a little digging, it seems that Omegon has been subtly working against Alpharius. I wonder if any of the other Alphas are helping with that.
Also apparently there is a theory that Omegon is Janus of the Grey Knights.
I recommend Seventh Serpent
Spoiler:
There's a group of loyalist Alpha Legionnaires that Alpharius is hunting down. Some of the language seems to imply that these loyalists work under Omegon
That or Omegon wasn't a spy, but the Emps hoped his sons would be smart enough to notice there are two guys that are more remarkably like Primarchs than all the Marines that are trying to imitate Primarchs. That's the one thing about the Alpha Legion at present that is odd to me, the warriors doing their whole look like Alpharius thing, when there is clearly a size difference
Remember that Alpha Legion also produced quite a few larger than average astartes. In Legion, Sheed Ranko is indicated to being very close to the same height as Alpharius (actually Omegon) if not the same and in The Serpent Beneath Sheed Ranko is clearly of a stature similar enough that whilst helmeted, other Legionnaires are convinced he's Omegon.
Also, Seventh Serpent seems to indicate that Alpharius is only slightly taller than the average astartes as indicated when he's imitating Meduson.
The imitation game amongst the Alpha Legion probably works best when working with or against regular humans of whom the vast majority have never seen an astartes before so wouldn't exactly know the difference between a primarch and an astartes.
And then there's elevator shoes
Fair point.
I'd still however suspect that other Primarchs should be able to tell the difference, though that is questionable as well considering the questionable events surrounding Alpharius' death. From what I am gathering through a little digging, it seems that Omegon has been subtly working against Alpharius. I wonder if any of the other Alphas are helping with that.
Also apparently there is a theory that Omegon is Janus of the Grey Knights.
I recommend Seventh Serpent
Spoiler:
There's a group of loyalist Alpha Legionnaires that Alpharius is hunting down. Some of the language seems to imply that these loyalists work under Omegon
Oh, very nice. I picked it up (along with a couple other items, like that Archaon 'Lord of Chaos' print) but I havent started it yet. Does it rely on reading some of the other HH Stories? Cause I've kinda been jumping around with them since I fell behind.
That or Omegon wasn't a spy, but the Emps hoped his sons would be smart enough to notice there are two guys that are more remarkably like Primarchs than all the Marines that are trying to imitate Primarchs. That's the one thing about the Alpha Legion at present that is odd to me, the warriors doing their whole look like Alpharius thing, when there is clearly a size difference
Remember that Alpha Legion also produced quite a few larger than average astartes. In Legion, Sheed Ranko is indicated to being very close to the same height as Alpharius (actually Omegon) if not the same and in The Serpent Beneath Sheed Ranko is clearly of a stature similar enough that whilst helmeted, other Legionnaires are convinced he's Omegon.
Also, Seventh Serpent seems to indicate that Alpharius is only slightly taller than the average astartes as indicated when he's imitating Meduson.
The imitation game amongst the Alpha Legion probably works best when working with or against regular humans of whom the vast majority have never seen an astartes before so wouldn't exactly know the difference between a primarch and an astartes.
And then there's elevator shoes
Fair point.
I'd still however suspect that other Primarchs should be able to tell the difference, though that is questionable as well considering the questionable events surrounding Alpharius' death. From what I am gathering through a little digging, it seems that Omegon has been subtly working against Alpharius. I wonder if any of the other Alphas are helping with that.
Also apparently there is a theory that Omegon is Janus of the Grey Knights.
I recommend Seventh Serpent
Spoiler:
There's a group of loyalist Alpha Legionnaires that Alpharius is hunting down. Some of the language seems to imply that these loyalists work under Omegon
Oh, very nice. I picked it up (along with a couple other items, like that Archaon 'Lord of Chaos' print) but I havent started it yet. Does it rely on reading some of the other HH Stories? Cause I've kinda been jumping around with them since I fell behind.
It's the sequel to Angel Exterminatus (which is also a good read) BUT, you don't really need to have read Angel Exterminatus for Seventh Serpent, aside from some further understanding and backstory of the characters that are in both.
Personally, I read Seventh Serpent before Angel Exterminatus. I didn't get lost anywhere in the story, it just drove me to finally get around to reading Angel Exterminatus
Is the OP talking Omegon or 2nd Primarch in the tube? Meaning that E knows about the identity of O. Yes, Emperor finally knows about the existence of Omegon during the Great Crusade (I think), but why... didn't he tell the other loyalist Primach during the Horus Heresy?
Perhaps because Omegon was meant to be a double agent inside the Alpha Legion by that point, and you don't usually want people knowing who your spies are. That and during a good portion of the Heresy, they weren't sure who among the loyalists were actually loyal. Vengeful Spirit has Malcador makes a remark that 'It seems the Warriors of the Lion stand with us.' clearly they dont know where the others stand, and I believe both sides of the War were eagerly waiting for the White Scars to chose a side. So like I was saying, when you aren't sure if the Loyalists are Loyal, you don't want to give away things.
That or Omegon wasn't a spy, but the Emps hoped his sons would be smart enough to notice there are two guys that are more remarkably like Primarchs than all the Marines that are trying to imitate Primarchs. That's the one thing about the Alpha Legion at present that is odd to me, the warriors doing their whole look like Alpharius thing, when there is clearly a size difference.
There is some variance in size, but aren't O and A only slightly larger than an average marine? Abaddon was huge for a marine and likely larger than both of them. I bet there were enough Alpha legion marines roughly their size to get the job done.
After all, we see Arnold Schwarzenegger in dozens of movies and thousands of photos, yet there is active and lively debate over whether he is 5'10" and 6'2". If one of the biggest celebrities of the last thirty years is of generally unknown height, how would people know exactly how tall legendarily secretive primarchs are?
Is the OP talking Omegon or 2nd Primarch in the tube? Meaning that E knows about the identity of O. Yes, Emperor finally knows about the existence of Omegon during the Great Crusade (I think), but why... didn't he tell the other loyalist Primach during the Horus Heresy?
Perhaps because Omegon was meant to be a double agent inside the Alpha Legion by that point, and you don't usually want people knowing who your spies are. That and during a good portion of the Heresy, they weren't sure who among the loyalists were actually loyal. Vengeful Spirit has Malcador makes a remark that 'It seems the Warriors of the Lion stand with us.' clearly they dont know where the others stand, and I believe both sides of the War were eagerly waiting for the White Scars to chose a side. So like I was saying, when you aren't sure if the Loyalists are Loyal, you don't want to give away things.
That or Omegon wasn't a spy, but the Emps hoped his sons would be smart enough to notice there are two guys that are more remarkably like Primarchs than all the Marines that are trying to imitate Primarchs. That's the one thing about the Alpha Legion at present that is odd to me, the warriors doing their whole look like Alpharius thing, when there is clearly a size difference.
There is some variance in size, but aren't O and A only slightly larger than an average marine? Abaddon was huge for a marine and likely larger than both of them. I bet there were enough Alpha legion marines roughly their size to get the job done.
After all, we see Arnold Schwarzenegger in dozens of movies and thousands of photos, yet there is active and lively debate over whether he is 5'10" and 6'2". If one of the biggest celebrities of the last thirty years is of generally unknown height, how would people know exactly how tall legendarily secretive primarchs are?
Because the Warmaster (at least when/if he meet Alphy first) and other Primarchs had met Alpharius, or Omegon at some point.
My thoughts have always been simple on this;
Alpharius split into twins while being made, something the emperor hadn't expected and didn't have time to figure out before the primarchs were scattered. A and O were together from the start, having been in the same pod the whole time, and were together after they were found/put in charge of the legion.
All the other details along the way I keep to speculation
Flame-Rage wrote: My thoughts have always been simple on this;
Alpharius split into twins while being made, something the emperor hadn't expected and didn't have time to figure out before the primarchs were scattered. A and O were together from the start, having been in the same pod the whole time, and were together after they were found/put in charge of the legion.
All the other details along the way I keep to speculation
That's what I think too. I don't think the Emperor could've not known, as there's a couple of mentions in the books (I think, one definitely) of one of the pods having 2 beings in it. But I don't think he planned for two.
I imagine Omegon was an accidental creation, as he and Alpharius make up on Primarch. They aren't two primarchs but two halves of one whole.
I also imagine that the Emperor knew of Omegon, despite he and Alpharius' attempts to mask his existence. I believe the Emperor would have allowed them to maintain the illusion of secrecy, as not to wound their joint pride.
Is the OP talking Omegon or 2nd Primarch in the tube? Meaning that E knows about the identity of O. Yes, Emperor finally knows about the existence of Omegon during the Great Crusade (I think), but why... didn't he tell the other loyalist Primach during the Horus Heresy?
Perhaps because Omegon was meant to be a double agent inside the Alpha Legion by that point, and you don't usually want people knowing who your spies are. That and during a good portion of the Heresy, they weren't sure who among the loyalists were actually loyal. Vengeful Spirit has Malcador makes a remark that 'It seems the Warriors of the Lion stand with us.' clearly they dont know where the others stand, and I believe both sides of the War were eagerly waiting for the White Scars to chose a side. So like I was saying, when you aren't sure if the Loyalists are Loyal, you don't want to give away things.
That or Omegon wasn't a spy, but the Emps hoped his sons would be smart enough to notice there are two guys that are more remarkably like Primarchs than all the Marines that are trying to imitate Primarchs. That's the one thing about the Alpha Legion at present that is odd to me, the warriors doing their whole look like Alpharius thing, when there is clearly a size difference.
There is some variance in size, but aren't O and A only slightly larger than an average marine? Abaddon was huge for a marine and likely larger than both of them. I bet there were enough Alpha legion marines roughly their size to get the job done.
After all, we see Arnold Schwarzenegger in dozens of movies and thousands of photos, yet there is active and lively debate over whether he is 5'10" and 6'2". If one of the biggest celebrities of the last thirty years is of generally unknown height, how would people know exactly how tall legendarily secretive primarchs are?
Because the Warmaster (at least when/if he meet Alphy first) and other Primarchs had met Alpharius, or Omegon at some point.
Sure, but with the amount of trickery credited to the twins and their legion, finding a couple other convincing looking marines to play their role isn't far fetched. SIze certainly wouldn't be a limiting factor.
Is the OP talking Omegon or 2nd Primarch in the tube? Meaning that E knows about the identity of O. Yes, Emperor finally knows about the existence of Omegon during the Great Crusade (I think), but why... didn't he tell the other loyalist Primach during the Horus Heresy?
Perhaps because Omegon was meant to be a double agent inside the Alpha Legion by that point, and you don't usually want people knowing who your spies are. That and during a good portion of the Heresy, they weren't sure who among the loyalists were actually loyal. Vengeful Spirit has Malcador makes a remark that 'It seems the Warriors of the Lion stand with us.' clearly they dont know where the others stand, and I believe both sides of the War were eagerly waiting for the White Scars to chose a side. So like I was saying, when you aren't sure if the Loyalists are Loyal, you don't want to give away things.
That or Omegon wasn't a spy, but the Emps hoped his sons would be smart enough to notice there are two guys that are more remarkably like Primarchs than all the Marines that are trying to imitate Primarchs. That's the one thing about the Alpha Legion at present that is odd to me, the warriors doing their whole look like Alpharius thing, when there is clearly a size difference.
There is some variance in size, but aren't O and A only slightly larger than an average marine? Abaddon was huge for a marine and likely larger than both of them. I bet there were enough Alpha legion marines roughly their size to get the job done.
After all, we see Arnold Schwarzenegger in dozens of movies and thousands of photos, yet there is active and lively debate over whether he is 5'10" and 6'2". If one of the biggest celebrities of the last thirty years is of generally unknown height, how would people know exactly how tall legendarily secretive primarchs are?
Because the Warmaster (at least when/if he meet Alphy first) and other Primarchs had met Alpharius, or Omegon at some point.
Sure, but with the amount of trickery credited to the twins and their legion, finding a couple other convincing looking marines to play their role isn't far fetched. SIze certainly wouldn't be a limiting factor.
They wouldnt have had the Marines with them when they were first encountered by the Warmaster, just whomever made up their fleet, who would likely have not been on par with Astartes or even a diminutive Primarch and his Twin. Basically every Luna Wolf would have been able to tell.
Hasn't GW reversed on that and said that the BL books are NOT cannon?
But in regards to this issue, haven't A and O been using that whole substitution thing after they met Horus? Are we specifically speaking purely about when Horus met them the first time?
Rippy wrote: I chose that the emporer knew about him (looked in the tank and saw two), though did not intentionally create him (why would he split one Primarch on purpose?), and he was scattered (The emporer would have made him a general otherwise).
Hmmm... Would Omegon just be another primarch? Every tube can only hold one.
If anyone has ever seen the movie The Prestige and you should watch it, this is basically what I imagine Alpharius and Omegon to be , relationship wise.
We were previously told that Alpharius was almost as tall as Horus, and that Alpha Legionnaires were also unusually tall - like their Primarch.
Then Alpharius got a twin, and lost some height.
Probably so that they could do the whole "I am Alpharius" shtick but then they could have done that with everyone being really tall too...
But then we've also been told that everything (Almost!) is canon still too...
Fair point.
PhillyT wrote:Hasn't GW reversed on that and said that the BL books are NOT cannon?
But in regards to this issue, haven't A and O been using that whole substitution thing after they met Horus? Are we specifically speaking purely about when Horus met them the first time?
I don't remember them coming out and saying that.
I think we are just trying to find a base for A and O being able to do that, and my point was simply that Horus would have been there before they took over the Legion. Also, I would think that a Primarch, who should have high attention to detail and perfect recall like their Astartes would be able to tell Twins apart, even ones as freaky alike as A and O. There are always subtle differences in movement and how one twin carries themselves compared to another. You then take this and Magnify it for those Primarchs that have Psyker Abilities and for the Emperor, because they would be able to tell through the Warp.
GW's never gonna say BL books aren't canon. they're not stupid. they want us to buy these books. and they actually do support the BL stuff a fair bit, pay attention and you'll find referances to the novels in various codices. (the most obvious one being Uriel Ventriss mentioned by NAME in Codex: Tyranids)
However I imagine they're also not going to feel bound by BL. so you're never gonna see a case of "well we can't do/say this because of a single sentence said in some 10 year old novel"
I think the wording was that this is BL specific interpretation of the 40k Universe and not "official" according to the continuity.
Dan Abnett said something to the effect in a Black Library interview when he stated:
"40K fiction is not an interpretation of the game universe, the game universe being the ‘true’ or ‘definitive’ one; 40K fiction and the game are BOTH interpretations of a definitive universe unavailable to us."
As long as the Emperor wasn't blind, I think he must've known about Omegon, judging from Deliverance Lost. Whether he was on purpose, I have no idea. Incidentally, in vitro fertilisation results in a much higher chance of twins.
ChazSexington wrote: As long as the Emperor wasn't blind, I think he must've known about Omegon, judging from Deliverance Lost. Whether he was on purpose, I have no idea. Incidentally, in vitro fertilisation results in a much higher chance of twins.
What happened in Deliverance Lost that leads you to say that?
Please continue to enjoy the beneficial and meaningful of Omegon mystery discussion.
I will?
And since you've made your 'point', please don't continue to spam it in this thread.
It was a rhetorical, but yes.. you have made your meaningful point.
Back to topic.
Alpha Legion are true traitor or member of Chaos legion correct? I have heard that they are working for the Emperor or for the Imperium or working to destroyed Chaos from within.
How so? To be part of Chaos (not Renegade), you must give your souls. How can AL start Chaos Cultist if they are not part of Chaos themselves? This tells me that AL (Alpharius and Omegon ) soul (together) have pledged themselves to Chaos.
I don't think there have ever been a case of traitor or spy to the Chaos, I mean... back stabbing is one thing... but a Loyalist pretend to be in a Chaos Cult and worshiping gods .. is impossible right? Because once you do... you belong to them.
Alpha Legion are true traitor or member of Chaos legion correct? I have heard that they are working for the Emperor or for the Imperium or working to destroyed Chaos from within.
How so? To be part of Chaos (not Renegade), you must give your souls. How can AL start Chaos Cultist if they are not part of Chaos themselves? This tells me that AL (Alpharius and Omegon ) soul (together) have pledged themselves to Chaos.
I don't think there have ever been a case of traitor or spy to the Chaos, I mean... back stabbing is one thing... but a Loyalist pretend to be in a Chaos Cult and worshiping gods .. is impossible right? Because once you do... you belong to them.
Not all of them have to be tainted for them to create Chaos Cults, the Alpha Legion itself tends to have an aversion to dedicating themselves to Chaos (much like the Night Lords) they use it as a tool to achieve their goal. So, worship of the Gods was not something they started out doing.
Chaos itself isn't as simple as just giving your soul to it anyway, sure there are those that do willingly embrace the Runic Powers, but there are several instances of people not willingly giving themselves to it and still being shaped by it. The Warp doesn't need your consent to spread to you and twist you. Through this a number of Alpha Legionnaires have been fully subverted to Chaos, and others still do in time accept it of their own volition to further their own cause.
The Cabal does say that they have abandoned the Alpha Legion ploy to defeat Chaos, by having them assist Horus in winning the Civil War, for reasons. Their plan was to have the Alpha Legion side with Horus to ensure that Chaos was Triumphant so that it would burn itself out like a fire that burns long enough. Eventually the victors would kill everyone, and then start killing each other and then chaos would lose power from the loss of emotional turmoil. At least that's their theory.
Alpha Legion are true traitor or member of Chaos legion correct? I have heard that they are working for the Emperor or for the Imperium or working to destroyed Chaos from within.
How so? To be part of Chaos (not Renegade), you must give your souls. How can AL start Chaos Cultist if they are not part of Chaos themselves? This tells me that AL (Alpharius and Omegon ) soul (together) have pledged themselves to Chaos.
I don't think there have ever been a case of traitor or spy to the Chaos, I mean... back stabbing is one thing... but a Loyalist pretend to be in a Chaos Cult and worshiping gods .. is impossible right? Because once you do... you belong to them.
Not all of them have to be tainted for them to create Chaos Cults, the Alpha Legion itself tends to have an aversion to dedicating themselves to Chaos (much like the Night Lords) they use it as a tool to achieve their goal. So, worship of the Gods was not something they started out doing.
Chaos itself isn't as simple as just giving your soul to it anyway, sure there are those that do willingly embrace the Runic Powers, but there are several instances of people not willingly giving themselves to it and still being shaped by it. The Warp doesn't need your consent to spread to you and twist you. Through this a number of Alpha Legionnaires have been fully subverted to Chaos, and others still do in time accept it of their own volition to further their own cause.
The Cabal does say that they have abandoned the Alpha Legion ploy to defeat Chaos, by having them assist Horus in winning the Civil War, for reasons. Their plan was to have the Alpha Legion side with Horus to ensure that Chaos was Triumphant so that it would burn itself out like a fire that burns long enough. Eventually the victors would kill everyone, and then start killing each other and then chaos would lose power from the loss of emotional turmoil. At least that's their theory.
I understand the degree of tainted by Chaos. I am talking about the whole legion. They are one heart with many heads. Chaos won’t allow the one heart if half is loyalist and half is Chaos.... that is not one heart at all.. it is split.
If say there are 10 AL. 3 are loyalist (working for the Emperor) 3 are Renegade (working to destroyed Chaos from with in / ally of the Imperium) and 3 Chaos allies (using Chaos as tools to destroyed Imperium) and 1 Chaos worshiper (souls and working for Chaos), that can’t be possible.
The 1 Chaos worshiper will try to convert the rest or tries to destroy the Loyalist in the legion.
The whole freaking legion will end up killing each other or fracture into warbands.
What I am saying is AL can’t exist at this as permanent stage of the legion.
All traitor legions started out like this, some Death Guard and many other traitor legions were fighting against the rebellion with in the legion. All of them are either dead or escape to join their loyalist brothers back in 30K.
AL is still acting like they are back 10,000 years ago. By now, they must either be part of Chaos faction or not. Seems like they are. You can’t pretend to be working for Chaos for 10,000 years with out being part of it. AL can pretend they are not with Chaos to recruit new members of loyalist… but their hearts are with Chaos… even if they are using Chaos as tools.
I understand the degree of tainted by Chaos. I am talking about the whole legion. They are one heart with many heads. Chaos won’t allow the one heart if half is loyalist and half is Chaos.... that is not one heart at all.. it is split.
If say there are 10 AL. 3 are loyalist (working for the Emperor) 3 are Renegade (working to destroyed Chaos from with in / ally of the Imperium) and 3 Chaos allies (using Chaos as tools to destroyed Imperium) and 1 Chaos worshiper (souls and working for Chaos), that can’t be possible.
The 1 Chaos worshiper will try to convert the rest or tries to destroy the Loyalist in the legion.
The whole freaking legion will end up killing each other or fracture into warbands.
What I am saying is AL can’t exist at this as permanent stage of the legion.
All traitor legions started out like this, some Death Guard and many other traitor legions were fighting against the rebellion with in the legion. All of them are either dead or escape to join their loyalist brothers back in 30K.
AL is still acting like they are back 10,000 years ago. By now, they must either be part of Chaos faction or not. Seems like they are. You can’t pretend to be working for Chaos for 10,000 years with out being part of it. AL can pretend they are not with Chaos to recruit new members of loyalist… but their hearts are with Chaos… even if they are using Chaos as tools.
Now you are assuming that all heads of the Hydra are working together. They are as you have pointed out, individual Warbands. Even in the Heresy, they were diveded enough that the corruption of one would not affect the other. They are a truly autonomous force, and have always been, they unite to strike at one location on occasion, but still operate individually of one another. You even see that with Alpharius and Omegon, they are operating against one another.
Even their Cultists can be different, one band maybe un-dedicated to Chaos and just use Anti-Imperial Revolutionaries, and another Chaos Cultists. That doesn't mean the Revolutionaries wont find Chaos on their own though.
Remember, only Five of the Legions are entirely (as in every member) dedicated to Chaos, the Emperor's Children, Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Word Bearers. The Black and Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Night Lords all have varrying degrees of dedication, with the Black Legion having more Legionnaires that have dedicated themselves to Chaos, and the latter three having significantly less.
Also as for only having half of a Legion, I present to you the argument of The Fallen Angels, chaos only got a chunk of the First Legion.
I understand the degree of tainted by Chaos. I am talking about the whole legion. They are one heart with many heads. Chaos won’t allow the one heart if half is loyalist and half is Chaos.... that is not one heart at all.. it is split.
If say there are 10 AL. 3 are loyalist (working for the Emperor) 3 are Renegade (working to destroyed Chaos from with in / ally of the Imperium) and 3 Chaos allies (using Chaos as tools to destroyed Imperium) and 1 Chaos worshiper (souls and working for Chaos), that can’t be possible.
The 1 Chaos worshiper will try to convert the rest or tries to destroy the Loyalist in the legion.
The whole freaking legion will end up killing each other or fracture into warbands.
What I am saying is AL can’t exist at this as permanent stage of the legion.
All traitor legions started out like this, some Death Guard and many other traitor legions were fighting against the rebellion with in the legion. All of them are either dead or escape to join their loyalist brothers back in 30K.
AL is still acting like they are back 10,000 years ago. By now, they must either be part of Chaos faction or not. Seems like they are. You can’t pretend to be working for Chaos for 10,000 years with out being part of it. AL can pretend they are not with Chaos to recruit new members of loyalist… but their hearts are with Chaos… even if they are using Chaos as tools.
Spoiler:
Now you are assuming that all heads of the Hydra are working together. They are as you have pointed out, individual Warbands. Even in the Heresy, they were diveded enough that the corruption of one would not affect the other. They are a truly autonomous force, and have always been, they unite to strike at one location on occasion, but still operate individually of one another. You even see that with Alpharius and Omegon, they are operating against one another.
Even their Cultists can be different, one band maybe un-dedicated to Chaos and just use Anti-Imperial Revolutionaries, and another Chaos Cultists. That doesn't mean the Revolutionaries wont find Chaos on their own though.
Remember, only Five of the Legions are entirely (as in every member) dedicated to Chaos, the Emperor's Children, Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Word Bearers. The Black and Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Night Lords all have varrying degrees of dedication, with the Black Legion having more Legionnaires that have dedicated themselves to Chaos, and the latter three having significantly less.
Also as for only having half of a Legion, I present to you the argument of The Fallen Angels, chaos only got a chunk of the First Legion.
I understand what you mean, but let me explain again.
The other Chaos legions like Black, NL, Iron, etc… are Chaos Proxies. They are Chaos allies. Which is not the same as AL if they are still loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in. If AL is a loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in, this is out right Chaos enemy… the very worst kind … a traitor of Chaos.
Let me give you an analogy. (no need for anybody to get their panties in a bunch here, this is just fiction)
USA – is the Imperium
ISIS/ ISIL – AL Islam – Chaos
Christianity – god Emperor
In our real world it is clear the ISIS is anti USA and pro Islam. It would be impossible for ISIS to be a double agent organization who is actually working for USA and are Christians. Yes, a few ISIS might be agent for USA. But no way can an organization as a whole be USA puppet.
This is AL. How can the whole legion be working for the Imperium or trying to destroy Chaos? There is no way that can be possible considering all the war crimes they have done to the Imperium and all the riots and Chaos cult they have created. AL is just another Chaos Proxies is my point.
Last – if they are warband, then they are not a Legion anymore. They are many heads working TOGETHER, means that their goals are the same. Again, using ISIL example…they have terror cells everywhere and working independently or as lone wolf…but ISIL goals are the same. If AL is working against each other as a ploy… and their goals are the same, then it is ok. What is their goal or loyalty then? Chaos or loyalist? We don’t know…. Or do we?
Actions suggested that they have turned to Chaos a long long time ago…. In this galaxy not so far far away.
I understand what you mean, but let me explain again.
The other Chaos legions like Black, NL, Iron, etc… are Chaos Proxies. They are Chaos allies. Which is not the same as AL if they are still loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in. If AL is a loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in, this is out right Chaos enemy… the very worst kind … a traitor of Chaos.
Let me give you an analogy. (no need for anybody to get their panties in a bunch here, this is just fiction)
USA – is the Imperium
ISIS/ ISIL – AL Islam – Chaos
Christianity – god Emperor
In our real world it is clear the ISIS is anti USA and pro Islam. It would be impossible for ISIS to be a double agent organization who is actually working for USA and are Christians. Yes, a few ISIS might be agent for USA. But no way can an organization as a whole be USA puppet.
This is AL. How can the whole legion be working for the Imperium or trying to destroy Chaos? There is no way that can be possible considering all the war crimes they have done to the Imperium and all the riots and Chaos cult they have created. AL is just another Chaos Proxies is my point.
Last – if they are warband, then they are not a Legion anymore. They are many heads working TOGETHER, means that their goals are the same. Again, using ISIL example…they have terror cells everywhere and working independently or as lone wolf…but ISIL goals are the same. If AL is working against each other as a ploy… and their goals are the same, then it is ok. What is their goal or loyalty then? Chaos or loyalist? We don’t know…. Or do we?
Actions suggested that they have turned to Chaos a long long time ago…. In this galaxy not so far far away.
Except I would say the ISIL Alpha Legion comparison would be wrong, very wrong. So wrong that I am just gonna simplify it to one point. ISIL are religious fanatics, the Alpha Legion are not.
The Alpha Legion has been described many times as many heads that SOMETIMES work together, not always. Each group has conflicting intrests, each group goes for a different thing. Has their questionable 'still loyal' thing been skewed, most certainly. But not all of the Alpha Legion work against each other as a ploy, the do it legitimately. There are so many heads to the Hydra that it would be literally impossible to bunch them together and say the are all working for the same goal. Do they all want the Imperium brought down? Clearly no as was pointed out in the thread earlier, it would seem that there is an Omegon faction that is trying to fight for the Imperium. But those that are trying to bring it down? I would say no, they aren't all Chaos, as each cell would have their own methods, and not all would be Chaos Proxies, as some would be bringing them down with out the use of Chaos, or they would use it as a tool. And a tool doesn't instantly make you a follower.
Additionally, saying that the Night Lords are servants of Chaos is wrong, for the most part. The majority of the Legion scorn the Gods and their gifts. Are there exceptions? Most certainly.
Also, Chaos does have a group that is Chaos against Chaos. Its Malice, a lesser god who used to be called Malal.
I understand what you mean, but let me explain again.
The other Chaos legions like Black, NL, Iron, etc… are Chaos Proxies. They are Chaos allies. Which is not the same as AL if they are still loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in. If AL is a loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in, this is out right Chaos enemy… the very worst kind … a traitor of Chaos.
Let me give you an analogy. (no need for anybody to get their panties in a bunch here, this is just fiction)
USA – is the Imperium
ISIS/ ISIL – AL Islam – Chaos
Christianity – god Emperor
In our real world it is clear the ISIS is anti USA and pro Islam. It would be impossible for ISIS to be a double agent organization who is actually working for USA and are Christians. Yes, a few ISIS might be agent for USA. But no way can an organization as a whole be USA puppet.
This is AL. How can the whole legion be working for the Imperium or trying to destroy Chaos? There is no way that can be possible considering all the war crimes they have done to the Imperium and all the riots and Chaos cult they have created. AL is just another Chaos Proxies is my point.
Last – if they are warband, then they are not a Legion anymore. They are many heads working TOGETHER, means that their goals are the same. Again, using ISIL example…they have terror cells everywhere and working independently or as lone wolf…but ISIL goals are the same. If AL is working against each other as a ploy… and their goals are the same, then it is ok. What is their goal or loyalty then? Chaos or loyalist? We don’t know…. Or do we?
Actions suggested that they have turned to Chaos a long long time ago…. In this galaxy not so far far away.
Except I would say the ISIL Alpha Legion comparison would be wrong, very wrong. So wrong that I am just gonna simplify it to one point. ISIL are religious fanatics, the Alpha Legion are not.
The Alpha Legion has been described many times as many heads that SOMETIMES work together, not always. Each group has conflicting intrests, each group goes for a different thing. Has their questionable 'still loyal' thing been skewed, most certainly. But not all of the Alpha Legion work against each other as a ploy, the do it legitimately. There are so many heads to the Hydra that it would be literally impossible to bunch them together and say the are all working for the same goal. Do they all want the Imperium brought down? Clearly no as was pointed out in the thread earlier, it would seem that there is an Omegon faction that is trying to fight for the Imperium. But those that are trying to bring it down? I would say no, they aren't all Chaos, as each cell would have their own methods, and not all would be Chaos Proxies, as some would be bringing them down with out the use of Chaos, or they would use it as a tool. And a tool doesn't instantly make you a follower.
Additionally, saying that the Night Lords are servants of Chaos is wrong, for the most part. The majority of the Legion scorn the Gods and their gifts. Are there exceptions? Most certainly.
Also, Chaos does have a group that is Chaos against Chaos. Its Malice, a lesser god who used to be called Malal.
You are missing the point of ISIL example, it is not about the religion.. .it is the unity of their organization for the same goal was my point.
AL is an organization (in fact, they are one of the best). Every organization must have a mission or a goal. It is very simple; either AL is for or against Imperium. The methods to accomplish its’ mission is a different discussion (which include, double agent, misdirection, using Chaos, etc…).
What is AL mission and ultimate goal then? What are they risking their lives for the past 10,000 years for? The goal of the legion must be the same. It is all or nothing. They are a legion and united or not? What you are suggesting doesn’t sounds like they are a Hydra at all, it sounds more like two or even three hydras. If that is the case, they are now many chapter-like or warbands using the Alpha legion only for the name.
Yes, NL is Chaos Proxies or allies …you think Chaos are letting NL using their demons or resources for free? They let NL live and use Chaos resources because NL is their proxies, they are hurting Imperium or hurting enemy of Chaos. They are both each other “tools”. Also, I never say NL is Chaos servant. Proxies means very differently.
Your example of Chaos Malice is an example of Chaos traitor. Are they not killed on site by the other legions? They share the same names as in “Chaos” but of course there are many factions. Emperor Children is enemy with World Eaters. We know this.
To get back to the point before you and I get off track. I am saying that Alpha Legion as a Legion shared the same goals. We as the reader do not know what that goal is, but as Hydra has many heads and one body… they are working together for one body.
I understand what you mean, but let me explain again.
The other Chaos legions like Black, NL, Iron, etc… are Chaos Proxies. They are Chaos allies. Which is not the same as AL if they are still loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in. If AL is a loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in, this is out right Chaos enemy… the very worst kind … a traitor of Chaos.
Let me give you an analogy. (no need for anybody to get their panties in a bunch here, this is just fiction)
USA – is the Imperium
ISIS/ ISIL – AL Islam – Chaos
Christianity – god Emperor
In our real world it is clear the ISIS is anti USA and pro Islam. It would be impossible for ISIS to be a double agent organization who is actually working for USA and are Christians. Yes, a few ISIS might be agent for USA. But no way can an organization as a whole be USA puppet.
This is AL. How can the whole legion be working for the Imperium or trying to destroy Chaos? There is no way that can be possible considering all the war crimes they have done to the Imperium and all the riots and Chaos cult they have created. AL is just another Chaos Proxies is my point.
Last – if they are warband, then they are not a Legion anymore. They are many heads working TOGETHER, means that their goals are the same. Again, using ISIL example…they have terror cells everywhere and working independently or as lone wolf…but ISIL goals are the same. If AL is working against each other as a ploy… and their goals are the same, then it is ok. What is their goal or loyalty then? Chaos or loyalist? We don’t know…. Or do we?
Actions suggested that they have turned to Chaos a long long time ago…. In this galaxy not so far far away.
Except I would say the ISIL Alpha Legion comparison would be wrong, very wrong. So wrong that I am just gonna simplify it to one point. ISIL are religious fanatics, the Alpha Legion are not.
The Alpha Legion has been described many times as many heads that SOMETIMES work together, not always. Each group has conflicting intrests, each group goes for a different thing. Has their questionable 'still loyal' thing been skewed, most certainly. But not all of the Alpha Legion work against each other as a ploy, the do it legitimately. There are so many heads to the Hydra that it would be literally impossible to bunch them together and say the are all working for the same goal. Do they all want the Imperium brought down? Clearly no as was pointed out in the thread earlier, it would seem that there is an Omegon faction that is trying to fight for the Imperium. But those that are trying to bring it down? I would say no, they aren't all Chaos, as each cell would have their own methods, and not all would be Chaos Proxies, as some would be bringing them down with out the use of Chaos, or they would use it as a tool. And a tool doesn't instantly make you a follower.
Additionally, saying that the Night Lords are servants of Chaos is wrong, for the most part. The majority of the Legion scorn the Gods and their gifts. Are there exceptions? Most certainly.
Also, Chaos does have a group that is Chaos against Chaos. Its Malice, a lesser god who used to be called Malal.
You are missing the point of ISIL example, it is not about the religion.. .it is the unity of their organization for the same goal was my point.
AL is an organization (in fact, they are one of the best). Every organization must have a mission or a goal. It is very simple; either AL is for or against Imperium. The methods to accomplish its’ mission is a different discussion (which include, double agent, misdirection, using Chaos, etc…).
What is AL mission and ultimate goal then? What are they risking their lives for the past 10,000 years for? The goal of the legion must be the same. It is all or nothing. They are a legion and united or not? What you are suggesting doesn’t sounds like they are a Hydra at all, it sounds more like two or even three hydras. If that is the case, they are now many chapter-like or warbands using the Alpha legion only for the name.
Yes, NL is Chaos Proxies or allies …you think Chaos are letting NL using their demons or resources for free? They let NL live and use Chaos resources because NL is their proxies, they are hurting Imperium or hurting enemy of Chaos. They are both each other “tools”. Also, I never say NL is Chaos servant. Proxies means very differently.
Your example of Chaos Malice is an example of Chaos traitor. Are they not killed on site by the other legions? They share the same names as in “Chaos” but of course there are many factions. Emperor Children is enemy with World Eaters. We know this.
To get back to the point before you and I get off track. I am saying that Alpha Legion as a Legion shared the same goals. We as the reader do not know what that goal is, but as Hydra has many heads and one body… they are working together for one body.
They did, to start with. They're already fracturing during the heresy, let alone in 40k. Now they're just a bunch of cells spread through the Galaxy with their own goals and ambitions.
I understand what you mean, but let me explain again.
The other Chaos legions like Black, NL, Iron, etc… are Chaos Proxies. They are Chaos allies. Which is not the same as AL if they are still loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in. If AL is a loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in, this is out right Chaos enemy… the very worst kind … a traitor of Chaos.
Let me give you an analogy. (no need for anybody to get their panties in a bunch here, this is just fiction)
USA – is the Imperium
ISIS/ ISIL – AL Islam – Chaos
Christianity – god Emperor
In our real world it is clear the ISIS is anti USA and pro Islam. It would be impossible for ISIS to be a double agent organization who is actually working for USA and are Christians. Yes, a few ISIS might be agent for USA. But no way can an organization as a whole be USA puppet.
This is AL. How can the whole legion be working for the Imperium or trying to destroy Chaos? There is no way that can be possible considering all the war crimes they have done to the Imperium and all the riots and Chaos cult they have created. AL is just another Chaos Proxies is my point.
Last – if they are warband, then they are not a Legion anymore. They are many heads working TOGETHER, means that their goals are the same. Again, using ISIL example…they have terror cells everywhere and working independently or as lone wolf…but ISIL goals are the same. If AL is working against each other as a ploy… and their goals are the same, then it is ok. What is their goal or loyalty then? Chaos or loyalist? We don’t know…. Or do we?
Actions suggested that they have turned to Chaos a long long time ago…. In this galaxy not so far far away.
Except I would say the ISIL Alpha Legion comparison would be wrong, very wrong. So wrong that I am just gonna simplify it to one point. ISIL are religious fanatics, the Alpha Legion are not.
The Alpha Legion has been described many times as many heads that SOMETIMES work together, not always. Each group has conflicting intrests, each group goes for a different thing. Has their questionable 'still loyal' thing been skewed, most certainly. But not all of the Alpha Legion work against each other as a ploy, the do it legitimately. There are so many heads to the Hydra that it would be literally impossible to bunch them together and say the are all working for the same goal. Do they all want the Imperium brought down? Clearly no as was pointed out in the thread earlier, it would seem that there is an Omegon faction that is trying to fight for the Imperium. But those that are trying to bring it down? I would say no, they aren't all Chaos, as each cell would have their own methods, and not all would be Chaos Proxies, as some would be bringing them down with out the use of Chaos, or they would use it as a tool. And a tool doesn't instantly make you a follower.
Additionally, saying that the Night Lords are servants of Chaos is wrong, for the most part. The majority of the Legion scorn the Gods and their gifts. Are there exceptions? Most certainly.
Also, Chaos does have a group that is Chaos against Chaos. Its Malice, a lesser god who used to be called Malal.
You are missing the point of ISIL example, it is not about the religion.. .it is the unity of their organization for the same goal was my point.
AL is an organization (in fact, they are one of the best). Every organization must have a mission or a goal. It is very simple; either AL is for or against Imperium. The methods to accomplish its’ mission is a different discussion (which include, double agent, misdirection, using Chaos, etc…).
What is AL mission and ultimate goal then? What are they risking their lives for the past 10,000 years for? The goal of the legion must be the same. It is all or nothing. They are a legion and united or not? What you are suggesting doesn’t sounds like they are a Hydra at all, it sounds more like two or even three hydras. If that is the case, they are now many chapter-like or warbands using the Alpha legion only for the name.
Yes, NL is Chaos Proxies or allies …you think Chaos are letting NL using their demons or resources for free? They let NL live and use Chaos resources because NL is their proxies, they are hurting Imperium or hurting enemy of Chaos. They are both each other “tools”. Also, I never say NL is Chaos servant. Proxies means very differently.
Your example of Chaos Malice is an example of Chaos traitor. Are they not killed on site by the other legions? They share the same names as in “Chaos” but of course there are many factions. Emperor Children is enemy with World Eaters. We know this.
To get back to the point before you and I get off track. I am saying that Alpha Legion as a Legion shared the same goals. We as the reader do not know what that goal is, but as Hydra has many heads and one body… they are working together for one body.
except there isn't this unity. ISIS is very much a unified movement, but they are also based almost entirely in a single geo-physical area. the Alpha legion operates via a cell based network across the galaxy. very very VERY differnt things. a cell based network isn't in contact often with the "head office" (beyond maybe one contact person) the rest are kept in the dark etc. Honestly a good example of a cell based structure can be found in Star Wars Rebels. where the protagionists didn't even realize until the season finalle they where just a cell in a larger orginization
At this point, what is obvious is that the Alpha Legion is quite splintered - and this started during the Heresy.
What we've seen of the 'modern' Legion remains mostly 'traitor'.
We have a few instances of Legionaries working 'For the Emperor" but even if there are still 'loyal' Alpha Legion cells, they'd have to work in secret as everyone pretty much believes they are The Enemy.
While I'm on the subject - let's stick to fictional sources and not try to draw parallels to real world despicable organizations.
At best, it is a weak attempt at being provocative and at worst, it is outright trolling.
They did, to start with. They're already fracturing during the heresy, let alone in 40k. Now they're just a bunch of cells spread through the Galaxy with their own goals and ambitions.
According to the fluff, current Alpha Legion internal organization is unknown. However, the Legion is still working together even with splinter cells. The cells (heads) do report to the body of the Hydra.
They are a traitor legion and they are working for themselves, but yes… there are warbands. Those warbands are not part of the legion anymore, but you would be mistaken if you think Alpha Legion is a broken up legion like World Eaters.
except there isn't this unity. ISIS is very much a unified movement, but they are also based almost entirely in a single geo-physical area. the Alpha legion operates via a cell based network across the galaxy. very very VERY differnt things. a cell based network isn't in contact often with the "head office" (beyond maybe one contact person) the rest are kept in the dark etc. Honestly a good example of a cell based structure can be found in Star Wars Rebels. where the protagionists didn't even realize until the season finalle they where just a cell in a larger orginization
You are talking about the method of AL operation. I am talking about who the legion is loyal too. From the fluff that I’ve been reading, it is clear that AL is a traitor legion working for their legion. The legion’s motive seems to be to destroy the Imperium. Hatred of Imperium seems to be the motivation. They seems to be doing this not for power or wealth, just hatred.
They did, to start with. They're already fracturing during the heresy, let alone in 40k. Now they're just a bunch of cells spread through the Galaxy with their own goals and ambitions.
According to the fluff, current Alpha Legion internal organization is unknown. However, the Legion is still working together even with splinter cells. The cells (heads) do report to the body of the Hydra.
They are a traitor legion and they are working for themselves, but yes… there are warbands. Those warbands are not part of the legion anymore, but you would be mistaken if you think Alpha Legion is a broken up legion like World Eaters.
except there isn't this unity. ISIS is very much a unified movement, but they are also based almost entirely in a single geo-physical area. the Alpha legion operates via a cell based network across the galaxy. very very VERY differnt things. a cell based network isn't in contact often with the "head office" (beyond maybe one contact person) the rest are kept in the dark etc. Honestly a good example of a cell based structure can be found in Star Wars Rebels. where the protagionists didn't even realize until the season finalle they where just a cell in a larger orginization
You are talking about the method of AL operation. I am talking about who the legion is loyal too. From the fluff that I’ve been reading, it is clear that AL is a traitor legion working for their legion. The legion’s motive seems to be to destroy the Imperium. Hatred of Imperium seems to be the motivation. They seems to be doing this not for power or wealth, just hatred.
Dunno where you have gotten this, but as Alpharius says (our Alpharius, not the Primarch...unless they are one and the same ) you seem to have gotten this from lore that isn't widely distributed/available or (rather poor) fanfiction
They did, to start with. They're already fracturing during the heresy, let alone in 40k. Now they're just a bunch of cells spread through the Galaxy with their own goals and ambitions.
According to the fluff, current Alpha Legion internal organization is unknown. However, the Legion is still working together even with splinter cells. The cells (heads) do report to the body of the Hydra.
They are a traitor legion and they are working for themselves, but yes… there are warbands. Those warbands are not part of the legion anymore, but you would be mistaken if you think Alpha Legion is a broken up legion like World Eaters.
except there isn't this unity. ISIS is very much a unified movement, but they are also based almost entirely in a single geo-physical area. the Alpha legion operates via a cell based network across the galaxy. very very VERY differnt things. a cell based network isn't in contact often with the "head office" (beyond maybe one contact person) the rest are kept in the dark etc. Honestly a good example of a cell based structure can be found in Star Wars Rebels. where the protagionists didn't even realize until the season finalle they where just a cell in a larger orginization
You are talking about the method of AL operation. I am talking about who the legion is loyal too. From the fluff that I’ve been reading, it is clear that AL is a traitor legion working for their legion. The legion’s motive seems to be to destroy the Imperium. Hatred of Imperium seems to be the motivation. They seems to be doing this not for power or wealth, just hatred.
Dunno where you have gotten this, but as Alpharius says (our Alpharius, not the Primarch...unless they are one and the same ) you seem to have gotten this from lore that isn't widely distributed/available or (rather poor) fanfiction
Maybe I'm not sure what MOD Alpharius and you are saying then.
ChazSexington wrote: As long as the Emperor wasn't blind, I think he must've known about Omegon, judging from Deliverance Lost. Whether he was on purpose, I have no idea. Incidentally, in vitro fertilisation results in a much higher chance of twins.
What happened in Deliverance Lost that leads you to say that?
I can't remember!
I checked it again now; the primarchs were incubated in glass cases.
ChazSexington wrote: As long as the Emperor wasn't blind, I think he must've known about Omegon, judging from Deliverance Lost. Whether he was on purpose, I have no idea. Incidentally, in vitro fertilisation results in a much higher chance of twins.
What happened in Deliverance Lost that leads you to say that?
I can't remember!
I checked it again now; the primarchs were incubated in glass cases.
Maybe I'm not sure what MOD Alpharius and you are saying then.
That we aren't sure where it is you are getting that the Legion remains a unified force dedicated to single goal when all other evidence seems to be to the contrary. If they were still on the same page, they would act more decisively, you don't need ten thousand years to set up a plan to tear down an already crumbling Imperium.
Maybe I'm not sure what MOD Alpharius and you are saying then.
That we aren't sure where it is you are getting that the Legion remains a unified force dedicated to single goal when all other evidence seems to be to the contrary. If they were still on the same page, they would act more decisively, you don't need ten thousand years to set up a plan to tear down an already crumbling Imperium.
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
Shidank wrote:
Oh, I was lost because I didn't know anyone could still try and argue the Emperor didn't know there were two.
There will always be multiple sides to any discussion.
Alpharius wrote:Hmmm...
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
I think it could be a case of multiple different descriptions by several authors over multiple novels, there's bound to be overlap.
The split being because of Chaos could be interesting, a plan of their that back fires.
I'd also almost suggest that perhaps after the loss of the Primarchs, and their rediscovery, due to the time it was taking to locate Alpharius. The Emperor could have chosen to create Omegon from the left over Primarch material to replace Alpharius. Though that would imply that the Emperor knew when he'd find the Primarchs, and that he didn't know Alpharius would be found.
Shidank wrote:
Oh, I was lost because I didn't know anyone could still try and argue the Emperor didn't know there were two.
There will always be multiple sides to any discussion.
Alpharius wrote:Hmmm...
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
I think it could be a case of multiple different descriptions by several authors over multiple novels, there's bound to be overlap.
The split being because of Chaos could be interesting, a plan of their that back fires.
I'd also almost suggest that perhaps after the loss of the Primarchs, and their rediscovery, due to the time it was taking to locate Alpharius. The Emperor could have chosen to create Omegon from the left over Primarch material to replace Alpharius. Though that would imply that the Emperor knew when he'd find the Primarchs, and that he didn't know Alpharius would be found.
The two AL Primarchs were together in the pod though, going by First Heretic.
Shidank wrote:
Oh, I was lost because I didn't know anyone could still try and argue the Emperor didn't know there were two.
There will always be multiple sides to any discussion.
Alpharius wrote:Hmmm...
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
I think it could be a case of multiple different descriptions by several authors over multiple novels, there's bound to be overlap.
The split being because of Chaos could be interesting, a plan of their that back fires.
I'd also almost suggest that perhaps after the loss of the Primarchs, and their rediscovery, due to the time it was taking to locate Alpharius. The Emperor could have chosen to create Omegon from the left over Primarch material to replace Alpharius. Though that would imply that the Emperor knew when he'd find the Primarchs, and that he didn't know Alpharius would be found.
The two AL Primarchs were together in the pod though, going by First Heretic.
Wasnt that a vision induced by the Runic Powers though? They are hardly a reliable narrator.
Shidank wrote:
Oh, I was lost because I didn't know anyone could still try and argue the Emperor didn't know there were two.
There will always be multiple sides to any discussion.
Alpharius wrote:Hmmm...
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
I think it could be a case of multiple different descriptions by several authors over multiple novels, there's bound to be overlap.
The split being because of Chaos could be interesting, a plan of their that back fires.
I'd also almost suggest that perhaps after the loss of the Primarchs, and their rediscovery, due to the time it was taking to locate Alpharius. The Emperor could have chosen to create Omegon from the left over Primarch material to replace Alpharius. Though that would imply that the Emperor knew when he'd find the Primarchs, and that he didn't know Alpharius would be found.
The two AL Primarchs were together in the pod though, going by First Heretic.
Wasnt that a vision induced by the Runic Powers though? They are hardly a reliable narrator.
Well yeah but of all the things they would lie about in that vision, that seems like a silly thing.
Maybe I'm not sure what MOD Alpharius and you are saying then.
That we aren't sure where it is you are getting that the Legion remains a unified force dedicated to single goal when all other evidence seems to be to the contrary. If they were still on the same page, they would act more decisively, you don't need ten thousand years to set up a plan to tear down an already crumbling Imperium.
I think the same about the other positions. Where are they getting the information? Just reading the Wikia, Lex, and CSM codex stated that they are a legion and they have cells all over the galaxy. I want to use real life example, but MOD didn’t think it was a good idea because we are too sensitive I guess.
Please don’t laugh. I got no choice here.
So I will use Cobra from G.I. Joe. Cobra has secret bases all over earth and they all are working together at times and at other times working on their own projects or plans. Example, we could assume that Cobra in India is trying to overthrow the government and put one of their commanders in charge. While Destro and the Baroness are working together trying to kidnap Duke in USA. However, Cobra mission is World domination. Infighting among Cobra members is common, especially when World Domination victory is with in their grasps. Storm Shadow (the white Ninja) at times, work as a rogue agent and sometime seems to be working with G.I. Joe because honor and pride. However, as Splinter as Cobra is at time … they all answer to Cobra Commander.
That is pretty much Alpha Legion.
Alpha Legion is only one legion. Imperium is freaking 1,000,000 planets. It is not an easy task to defeat that power. Yeah… it has been 10,000 years. They are still alive… to me that is a freaking victory.
One would guess that, to beat the Imperium is not by Wars, but by politics. Alpha Legion must have been putting their agents in power position in the Imperium and slowly kills it from with in. If you think the Imperium is crumbling, I think Alpha Legion was part of that.
Nah. Come on down to Molech. We've got something to show you.
I don't know.
ImAGeek wrote: Well yeah but of all the things they would lie about in that vision, that seems like a silly thing.
Because its in their nature to lie. Though, if Omegon was created to replace Alpharius, that does seem like something you'd say to entice a Primarch. That your 'father' was creating replacements for x reason.
But if I remember right the vision was shown to the Gal Vorbak wasn't it?
Maybe I'm not sure what MOD Alpharius and you are saying then.
That we aren't sure where it is you are getting that the Legion remains a unified force dedicated to single goal when all other evidence seems to be to the contrary. If they were still on the same page, they would act more decisively, you don't need ten thousand years to set up a plan to tear down an already crumbling Imperium.
I think the same about the other positions. Where are they getting the information? Just reading the Wikia, Lex, and CSM codex stated that they are a legion and they have cells all over the galaxy. I want to use real life example, but MOD didn’t think it was a good idea because we are too sensitive I guess.
Please don’t laugh. I got no choice here. So I will use Cobra from G.I. Joe. Cobra has secret bases all over earth and they all are working together at times and at other times working on their own projects or plans. Example, we could assume that Cobra in India is trying to overthrow the government and put one of their commanders in charge. While Destro and the Baroness are working together trying to kidnap Duke in USA. However, Cobra mission is World domination. Infighting among Cobra members is common, especially when World Domination victory is with in their grasps. Storm Shadow (the white Ninja) at times, work as a rogue agent and sometime seems to be working with G.I. Joe because honor and pride. However, as Splinter as Cobra is at time … they all answer to Cobra Commander.
That is pretty much Alpha Legion.
Alpha Legion is only one legion. Imperium is freaking 1,000,000 planets. It is not an easy task to defeat that power. Yeah… it has been 10,000 years. They are still alive… to me that is a freaking victory.
One would guess that, to beat the Imperium is not by Wars, but by politics. Alpha Legion must have been putting their agents in power position in the Imperium and slowly kills it from with in. If you think the Imperium is crumbling, I think Alpha Legion was part of that.
Our sources are the Horus Heresy series of novels, and the Forge World Horus Heresy books, and the Siege of Vraks book. Heck even the codex says that its not for certain, and Im sure there are a number of other books that support our theory.
The Cobra comparison is a pretty decent one, but I'd think they are less formalized than that after 10k years.
Additionally, they may just be one Legion, but they have completely subverted entire chapters into going renegade, same with guardsmen and planetary populations, and that is one cell at a time. If they were organized they could handle it all, it would take them a couple thousand years maybe, but not 10k.
The Imperium was crumbling the moment the Heresy started, and it hasn't recovered, if anything the Alphas have only slowly being working at the foundation. Their progression is so minute that it may as well have stagnated in the grand scheme of things.
ImAGeek wrote:
Well yeah but of all the things they would lie about in that vision, that seems like a silly thing.
Because its in their nature to lie. Though, if Omegon was created to replace Alpharius, that does seem like something you'd say to entice a Primarch. That your 'father' was creating replacements for x reason.
But if I remember right the vision was shown to the Gal Vorbak wasn't it?
I suppose, but the whole thing was staged for them to turn the Word Bearers so any lies would be to further that goal, and like you say it almost doesn't. But you're right, we don't know, so I guess Omegon could've been made afterwards.
And yeah. Well, it was shown to the marines that became the Gal Vorbak.
ImAGeek wrote:
Well yeah but of all the things they would lie about in that vision, that seems like a silly thing.
Because its in their nature to lie. Though, if Omegon was created to replace Alpharius, that does seem like something you'd say to entice a Primarch. That your 'father' was creating replacements for x reason.
But if I remember right the vision was shown to the Gal Vorbak wasn't it?
I suppose, but the whole thing was staged for them to turn the Word Bearers so any lies would be to further that goal, and like you say it almost doesn't. But you're right, we don't know, so I guess Omegon could've been made afterwards.
And yeah. Well, it was shown to the marines that became the Gal Vorbak.
Sometimes the lie is to just fill additional details that would need to be there for the whole lie to work. It was just a theory anyway, likely he was created at the same time.
Our sources are the Horus Heresy series of novels, and the Forge World Horus Heresy books, and the Siege of Vraks book. Heck even the codex says that its not for certain, and Im sure there are a number of other books that support our theory.
The Cobra comparison is a pretty decent one, but I'd think they are less formalized than that after 10k years.
Additionally, they may just be one Legion, but they have completely subverted entire chapters into going renegade, same with guardsmen and planetary populations, and that is one cell at a time. If they were organized they could handle it all, it would take them a couple thousand years maybe, but not 10k.
The Imperium was crumbling the moment the Heresy started, and it hasn't recovered, if anything the Alphas have only slowly being working at the foundation. Their progression is so minute that it may as well have stagnated in the grand scheme of things.
Granted that I never read most of those books that you mentioned, but I've browsed them and communicated with people who have read them. I didn’t get the impression that the Legion is dead and they are broken apart or there is no more central commander.
They say that in any search for truth in 40K fluff, there are 3 phases.
Phase 1 – They denied it.
Phase 2 – It conflicted with their version of the books they have read.
Phase 3 – They know it all alone.
So, just to make sure that I know what contradiction you are talking about, why don’t you state it.
You know my position, what part is it that you think is not correct?
Our sources are the Horus Heresy series of novels, and the Forge World Horus Heresy books, and the Siege of Vraks book. Heck even the codex says that its not for certain, and Im sure there are a number of other books that support our theory.
The Cobra comparison is a pretty decent one, but I'd think they are less formalized than that after 10k years.
Additionally, they may just be one Legion, but they have completely subverted entire chapters into going renegade, same with guardsmen and planetary populations, and that is one cell at a time. If they were organized they could handle it all, it would take them a couple thousand years maybe, but not 10k.
The Imperium was crumbling the moment the Heresy started, and it hasn't recovered, if anything the Alphas have only slowly being working at the foundation. Their progression is so minute that it may as well have stagnated in the grand scheme of things.
Granted that I never read most of those books that you mentioned, but I've browsed them and communicated with people who have read them. I didn’t get the impression that the Legion is dead and they are broken apart or there is no more central commander.
They say that in any search for truth in 40K fluff, there are 3 phases.
Phase 1 – They denied it.
Phase 2 – It conflicted with their version of the books they have read.
Phase 3 – They know it all alone.
So, just to make sure that I know what contradiction you are talking about, why don’t you state it.
You know my position, what part is it that you think is not correct?
What is your position?
The contradition is in the books, while you think they dedicate themselves to Chaos, they have been shown working against other forces of Chaos. In the Horus Heresy Book 3, Horus is furious to discover the Forge World Alpharius has been sent to take will require Horus to station men there, in order to keep it compliant. He demands an explanation from Alpharius who simply responds "The Devil is not Mocked." Showing the Alpha's are not working in Chaos' best interests (going with the Cabal's abandoning of the Alpha Legion Gambit). The Seventh Serpent show Alpharius hunting his own men for being "loyalists" which would then imply that they have sided with Chaos. Everything about the Legion is contradictions. And in the 41st Millennium next to nothing is known about their goals and operations other than it seems they are against the Imperium, and that they operate in independent Cells that sometimes loosely coordinate with each other.
My position is that the Legion is not a unified as you think, and that they are not as a whole dedicated to the Ruinous Powers. Personally I think all the heads are doing their own thing, some work more closely with others, while others are out on their own.
The contradition is in the books, while you think they dedicate themselves to Chaos, they have been shown working against other forces of Chaos. In the Horus Heresy Book 3, Horus is furious to discover the Forge World Alpharius has been sent to take will require Horus to station men there, in order to keep it compliant. He demands an explanation from Alpharius who simply responds "The Devil is not Mocked." Showing the Alpha's are not working in Chaos' best interests (going with the Cabal's abandoning of the Alpha Legion Gambit). The Seventh Serpent show Alpharius hunting his own men for being "loyalists" which would then imply that they have sided with Chaos. Everything about the Legion is contradictions. And in the 41st Millennium next to nothing is known about their goals and operations other than it seems they are against the Imperium, and that they operate in independent Cells that sometimes loosely coordinate with each other.
My position is that the Legion is not a unified as you think, and that they are not as a whole dedicated to the Ruinous Powers. Personally I think all the heads are doing their own thing, some work more closely with others, while others are out on their own.
I’m glade you wrote this out and stated your position.
If you go back and read my post, there is no contradiction from what you are saying to me.
You are saying that the legion is not as unified as you think. What does that means?
I said that the legion is a legion with a central command. They have many cells (head) working for the body (central command, the Legion). That is exactly what you are saying. You just put in an excerpt that some work closely than others. Which I never mentioned, but it must be understood… that some cells have 5 guys and some might have 1,000 in that network.
I never said that they were dedicated to Ruinous Powers. I said they must be part of Chaos or it’s proxies. That doesn’t mean that they are worshiping Chaos. Proxies just mean they are fighting on behalf of Chaos at times, and AL are NOT doing it for FREE. I am sure AL gets a lot in return.
Excerpt from Lexicaum.
While these cells operate independently of one another and destroying one will not effect the effort of their overall mission, the Legion still loosely coordinates its actions across the Galaxy. Who is coordinating these efforts and how they are doing so is largely a mystery to the Imperium, but many believe they achieve this through "Operatives". These figures are apparently human, but have undergone limited psycho-hypnotic therapy to make them absolutely loyal to the Legion. These operatives, fully infiltrated into Imperial society, act as the link between Alpha Legion cells and Cultists, and are their primary method of galaxy-wide communication.
This is why I say that AL is still a Legion. United. Sure some have broken off to form their Warban or went Chaos lunatic, but over all AL is strong. They are far far away from Emperor’s Children or World Eaters broken up.
Again, I stated …
Alpha Legion – still a legion with central command. Not broken up.
Alpha Legion (as a whole legion) is not Chaos pawns, but a proxies or allies or trading partners. They are “friendly” to each other.
Alpha Legion - they work for themselves, they answer to their central commander. Who ever that is.
Alpha Legion – They are not part of Imperium. They are trying to destroy the Imperium.
I’m glade you wrote this out and stated your position.
If you go back and read my post, there is no contradiction from what you are saying to me.
You are saying that the legion is not as unified as you think. What does that means? I said that the legion is a legion with a central command. They have many cells (head) working for the body (central command, the Legion). That is exactly what you are saying. You just put in an excerpt that some work closely than others. Which I never mentioned, but it must be understood… that some cells have 5 guys and some might have 1,000 in that network.
I never said that they were dedicated to Ruinous Powers. I said they must be part of Chaos or it’s proxies. That doesn’t mean that they are worshiping Chaos. Proxies just mean they are fighting on behalf of Chaos at times, and AL are NOT doing it for FREE. I am sure AL gets a lot in return.
Excerpt from Lexicaum.
While these cells operate independently of one another and destroying one will not effect the effort of their overall mission, the Legion still loosely coordinates its actions across the Galaxy. Who is coordinating these efforts and how they are doing so is largely a mystery to the Imperium, but many believe they achieve this through "Operatives". These figures are apparently human, but have undergone limited psycho-hypnotic therapy to make them absolutely loyal to the Legion. These operatives, fully infiltrated into Imperial society, act as the link between Alpha Legion cells and Cultists, and are their primary method of galaxy-wide communication.
This is why I say that AL is still a Legion. United. Sure some have broken off to form their Warban or went Chaos lunatic, but over all AL is strong. They are far far away from Emperor’s Children or World Eaters broken up.
Again, I stated … Alpha Legion – still a legion with central command. Not broken up. Alpha Legion (as a whole legion) is not Chaos pawns, but a proxies or allies or trading partners. They are “friendly” to each other. Alpha Legion - they work for themselves, they answer to their central commander. Who ever that is. Alpha Legion – They are not part of Imperium. They are trying to destroy the Imperium.
The Ruinous Powers are Chaos, to be Chaos is to be dedicated to them. I'm saying that they may fight along side of Chaos, but that they are not Chaos. Not all of them anyway. Which up until recently I was getting from your posts that they were Chaos, not just occasional allies. To that end, Alpha Legion will ally with anyone to accomplish their goals. If creating a Chaos Cult furthers their goals they will create one, if working with the Tau or Dark Eldar will help them they would do the same, that doesn't make them part of the Greater Good. So yes, they work for themselves, but ally with anyone, not just Chaos.
I would agree that they are not apart of the Imperium, the majority anyway. Many are trying to bring it down by any means necessary, but it has been established, that atleast in the Heresy there were Alpha Legionnaires fighting for the Imperium. There is no reason there can't be Alpha Legionnaires doing the same thing now, but having to do it from the outside, or while imitating an Imperial Agency.
Loose affiliation and coordination, doesn't make a Legion united. The Night Lords are loosely affiliated and at times loosely coordinate, but that doesn't make them a unified Legion. Yes they are on a surface level less fragmented than the Emperor's Children and World Eaters, but they are still fragmented. Some of them answer to the 'central command'.
Or it could be more like Hydra, where Baron von Strucker is doing his own thing separate from the group of Hydra that took over SHIELD. Both still trying to take over the world? Yep. Both still Hydra? Yeah. Both working together? Only when they have to.
The problem with david choe here is, among other things, that he is speaking with an air of authority and expertise that he doesn't actually possess - mostly because it doesn't exist!!
Call it sloppy and lazy writing, call it brilliant, or maybe the writers have just lost their way...
Maybe there's a grand design that will eventually be revealed - the Ultimate Long Game?
Alpharius wrote: The problem with david choe here is, among other things, that he is speaking with an air of authority and expertise that he doesn't actually possess - mostly because it doesn't exist!!
Call it sloppy and lazy writing, call it brilliant, or maybe the writers have just lost their way...
Maybe there's a grand design that will eventually be revealed - the Ultimate Long Game?
Guys! We've been deceived this whole time! Look below. Also take my exalts. My exalts are Alpharius and Alpharius is the exalts.
Er... I think that makes sense? I feel like trying to figure out the Alpha legion is like trying to find out what happened to Half Life 3. Am I on the mod's list now for figuring out your plans to confuse us?
Alpharius wrote: The problem with david choe here is, among other things, that he is speaking with an air of authority and expertise that he doesn't actually possess - mostly because it doesn't exist!!
Call it sloppy and lazy writing, call it brilliant, or maybe the writers have just lost their way...
Maybe there's a grand design that will eventually be revealed - the Ultimate Long Game?
I certainly hope so!
Hey man, that is very personal and very insulting. You are the MOD here, act like one.
I am speaking with conviction and passion with proof if need be.
If you want to get back to the discussion and show me the proof, then be an adult like the rest of us.
There is no game, you are clearly speaking with ego.
Alpharius wrote: The problem with david choe here is, among other things, that he is speaking with an air of authority and expertise that he doesn't actually possess - mostly because it doesn't exist!!
Call it sloppy and lazy writing, call it brilliant, or maybe the writers have just lost their way...
Maybe there's a grand design that will eventually be revealed - the Ultimate Long Game?
I certainly hope so!
Hey man, that is very personal and very insulting. You are the MOD here, act like one.
I am speaking with conviction and passion with proof if need be.
If you want to get back to the discussion and show me the proof, then be an adult like the rest of us.
There is no game, you are clearly speaking with ego.
Why is nobody seeing this?
Nothing he said was that insulting. He's a mod, he knows his rules. People have shown you proof already.
The contradition is in the books, while you think they dedicate themselves to Chaos, they have been shown working against other forces of Chaos. In the Horus Heresy Book 3, Horus is furious to discover the Forge World Alpharius has been sent to take will require Horus to station men there, in order to keep it compliant. He demands an explanation from Alpharius who simply responds "The Devil is not Mocked." Showing the Alpha's are not working in Chaos' best interests (going with the Cabal's abandoning of the Alpha Legion Gambit). The Seventh Serpent show Alpharius hunting his own men for being "loyalists" which would then imply that they have sided with Chaos. Everything about the Legion is contradictions. And in the 41st Millennium next to nothing is known about their goals and operations other than it seems they are against the Imperium, and that they operate in independent Cells that sometimes loosely coordinate with each other.
My position is that the Legion is not a unified as you think, and that they are not as a whole dedicated to the Ruinous Powers. Personally I think all the heads are doing their own thing, some work more closely with others, while others are out on their own.
which is from the books, which are a better source than Lexicanum.
Another question I am curious as I am a bit behind on my BL novels and fluff, is the Cabal still active and do they still have involvement with the Alpha Legion? I know Rowboat killed Alpharius, (plot twist they have Alpharius in the stasis,) however, that leaves Omegon. So... is the cabal still involved with him due to the whole Alpharius accepting it and Omegon not? I know little to jack about the legion.
Alpharius wrote: The problem with david choe here is, among other things, that he is speaking with an air of authority and expertise that he doesn't actually possess - mostly because it doesn't exist!!
Call it sloppy and lazy writing, call it brilliant, or maybe the writers have just lost their way...
Maybe there's a grand design that will eventually be revealed - the Ultimate Long Game?
I certainly hope so!
Hey man, that is very personal and very insulting. You are the MOD here, act like one.
I am speaking with conviction and passion with proof if need be.
If you want to get back to the discussion and show me the proof, then be an adult like the rest of us.
There is no game, you are clearly speaking with ego. What is Rule #1?
Why is nobody seeing this?
On the 'Air of Authority' discussion too much, I'd like to say that many of us may have spoken with the same 'tone'. We have numerous times shown proof other than what is simply on the wiki, and have used the wiki for our own benefit and interpretation.
I for example am trying to present my case as the option that I personally believe true, while I am getting from your specific 'tone' a very matter of fact point of view, that holds its the only way to be right.
The comment that you are speaking with a tone of authority and expertise you don't have isn't him saying you don't know what you are talking about, its that none of us are an authority on the subject. You just seem to put off an air that you are trying to be.
Alpharius wrote:Exactly - I suspect that there's a fair amount of 'trolling' in a LOT of your posts, actually.
Anyway, does anyone remember if it was Alpharius or Omegon who ended up shooting a Cabal member out of an airlock?
IIRC it was Omegon, while Alpharius shot the Commander of the Imperial Army group. Or I am mixing up my books.
Ugh, sorry all. I've been up for a few days, getting to that derpy point of being awake. I also put my vote, which is
"The Emperor Knew About Him, He Was Not Intentionally Created & Was Scattered."
I edited my question to make sense of what I was trying to ask. Since this is about Omegon, I figured it'd be okay to ask a general question about him. I think it got caught up in the last page though, oops.
Alpharius wrote: The problem with david choe here is, among other things, that he is speaking with an air of authority and expertise that he doesn't actually possess - mostly because it doesn't exist!!
Call it sloppy and lazy writing, call it brilliant, or maybe the writers have just lost their way...
Maybe there's a grand design that will eventually be revealed - the Ultimate Long Game?
I certainly hope so!
Hey man, that is very personal and very insulting. You are the MOD here, act like one.
I am speaking with conviction and passion with proof if need be.
If you want to get back to the discussion and show me the proof, then be an adult like the rest of us.
There is no game, you are clearly speaking with ego. What is Rule #1?
Why is nobody seeing this?
On the 'Air of Authority' discussion too much, I'd like to say that many of us may have spoken with the same 'tone'. We have numerous times shown proof other than what is simply on the wiki, and have used the wiki for our own benefit and interpretation.
I for example am trying to present my case as the option that I personally believe true, while I am getting from your specific 'tone' a very matter of fact point of view, that holds its the only way to be right.
The comment that you are speaking with a tone of authority and expertise you don't have isn't him saying you don't know what you are talking about, its that none of us are an authority on the subject. You just seem to put off an air that you are trying to be.
Am I trolling with you? Are we not having a discussion about AL? Maybe show me how I should have write one one of my reply to you where I am not being the authority. I don't even know what that is? Should I reply to you where you are the authority?
It was between us right? Did you feel I was aggressive or did anything to you? MOD came out of no where and attack me.
Alpharius wrote: The problem with david choe here is, among other things, that he is speaking with an air of authority and expertise that he doesn't actually possess - mostly because it doesn't exist!!
Call it sloppy and lazy writing, call it brilliant, or maybe the writers have just lost their way...
Maybe there's a grand design that will eventually be revealed - the Ultimate Long Game?
I certainly hope so!
Hey man, that is very personal and very insulting. You are the MOD here, act like one.
I am speaking with conviction and passion with proof if need be.
If you want to get back to the discussion and show me the proof, then be an adult like the rest of us.
There is no game, you are clearly speaking with ego. What is Rule #1?
Why is nobody seeing this?
On the 'Air of Authority' discussion too much, I'd like to say that many of us may have spoken with the same 'tone'. We have numerous times shown proof other than what is simply on the wiki, and have used the wiki for our own benefit and interpretation.
I for example am trying to present my case as the option that I personally believe true, while I am getting from your specific 'tone' a very matter of fact point of view, that holds its the only way to be right.
The comment that you are speaking with a tone of authority and expertise you don't have isn't him saying you don't know what you are talking about, its that none of us are an authority on the subject. You just seem to put off an air that you are trying to be.
Am I trolling with you? Are we not having a discussion about AL? Maybe show me how I should have write one one of my reply to you where I am not being the authority. I don't even know what that is? Should I reply to you where you are the authority?
It was between us right? Did you feel I was aggressive or did anything to you? MOD came out of no where and attack me.
Please stay on topic, if you have a grievance with someone then message them directly.
Am I trolling with you? Are we not having a discussion about AL? Maybe show me how I should have write one one of my reply to you where I am not being the authority. I don't even know what that is? Should I reply to you where you are the authority?
It was between us right? Did you feel I was aggressive or did anything to you? MOD came out of no where and attack me.
Neither of us are the authority on the topic and that is the point. The fact that you think you are, is one of the things he is (presumably) referring to as a trolling matter. An authority on the subject would be a game designer or author for Games Workshop and the Black Library.
His job as a mod is to watch for anything that can be preceved as hostile and prevent it from escalating, obviously he saw something, so commented. My only real issue was the comparison to ISIS, which isn't because of a knee jerk reaction that its ISIS. But because it is a clearly out of place comparison, and irrelivant to the topic. Too me it was just a grab for attention by using a poor comparison, but I moved past it.
Back to the general topic of the thread, since we have diverted it from the original discussion of Omegon and if the Emperor was aware of him to one on the very nature of the Alpha Legion.
I am keenly interested in seeing where they decide to take the hidden feud between Alpharius and Omegon, and how that will continue to shape the most elusive Legion.
Alpharius wrote: Exactly - I suspect that there's a fair amount of 'trolling' in a LOT of your posts, actually.
Anyway, does anyone remember if it was Alpharius or Omegon who ended up shooting a Cabal member out of an airlock?
Omegon I believe
I just can't remember myself - so thanks!
If it is indeed Omegon, and I've no reason to doubt you, it certainly is another ''clue" towards which side on the "Cabal Question" he came down on.
Maybe the rift is in fact due to Alpharius 'blindly' accepting the Cabal's vision, whereas Omegon didn't.
I still think that the biggest problem with the Alpha Legion is the whole 'too clever by half' thing - they thought they saw a 'third way' out - save the Emperor and Humanity, defeat Chaos and Horus, AND stymy the Cabal.
It remains to be seen - and I just hope that the BL writers do in fact have a 'grand plan' that they're working from and towards still!
Alpharius wrote: Exactly - I suspect that there's a fair amount of 'trolling' in a LOT of your posts, actually.
Anyway, does anyone remember if it was Alpharius or Omegon who ended up shooting a Cabal member out of an airlock?
Omegon I believe
I just can't remember myself - so thanks!
If it is indeed Omegon, and I've no reason to doubt you, it certainly is another ''clue" towards which side on the "Cabal Question" he came down on.
Maybe the rift is in fact due to Alpharius 'blindly' accepting the Cabal's vision, whereas Omegon didn't.
I still think that the biggest problem with the Alpha Legion is the whole 'too clever by half' thing - they thought they saw a 'third way' out - save the Emperor and Humanity, defeat Chaos and Horus, AND stymy the Cabal.
It remains to be seen - and I just hope that the BL writers do in fact have a 'grand plan' that they're working from and towards still!
I would hope they have a plan as well, and that they aren't just leading us around to do nothing with it.
Alpharius wrote: Exactly - I suspect that there's a fair amount of 'trolling' in a LOT of your posts, actually.
Anyway, does anyone remember if it was Alpharius or Omegon who ended up shooting a Cabal member out of an airlock?
Omegon I believe
I just can't remember myself - so thanks!
If it is indeed Omegon, and I've no reason to doubt you, it certainly is another ''clue" towards which side on the "Cabal Question" he came down on.
Maybe the rift is in fact due to Alpharius 'blindly' accepting the Cabal's vision, whereas Omegon didn't.
I still think that the biggest problem with the Alpha Legion is the whole 'too clever by half' thing - they thought they saw a 'third way' out - save the Emperor and Humanity, defeat Chaos and Horus, AND stymy the Cabal.
It remains to be seen - and I just hope that the BL writers do in fact have a 'grand plan' that they're working from and towards still!
I would hope they have a plan as well, and that they aren't just leading us around to do nothing with it.
I'd love a mega-fracture to occur during/post-heresy, like the Legion sunders below their two warring Primarchs. That's be groovy as!
NO WAY Black Library is going to miss out on a Civil War between the only two actual real brothers during the Galactic Civil War that is...The Horus Heresy!
NO WAY Black Library is going to miss out on a Civil War between the only two actual real brothers during the Galactic Civil War that is...The Horus Heresy!
In a Brotherhood of Brothers, two Brothers will leave their bonds of Brotherhood in a Bitter Battle between Blood Brothers!
Alpharius wrote: Exactly - I suspect that there's a fair amount of 'trolling' in a LOT of your posts, actually.
Anyway, does anyone remember if it was Alpharius or Omegon who ended up shooting a Cabal member out of an airlock?
Omegon I believe
I just can't remember myself - so thanks!
If it is indeed Omegon, and I've no reason to doubt you, it certainly is another ''clue" towards which side on the "Cabal Question" he came down on.
Maybe the rift is in fact due to Alpharius 'blindly' accepting the Cabal's vision, whereas Omegon didn't.
I still think that the biggest problem with the Alpha Legion is the whole 'too clever by half' thing - they thought they saw a 'third way' out - save the Emperor and Humanity, defeat Chaos and Horus, AND stymy the Cabal.
It remains to be seen - and I just hope that the BL writers do in fact have a 'grand plan' that they're working from and towards still!
I would hope they have a plan as well, and that they aren't just leading us around to do nothing with it.
I'd love a mega-fracture to occur during/post-heresy, like the Legion sunders below their two warring Primarchs. That's be groovy as!
Alpharius wrote:Oh, that's definitely happening!
NO WAY Black Library is going to miss out on a Civil War between the only two actual real brothers during the Galactic Civil War that is...The Horus Heresy!
Yeah it has to happen, its too good of an opportunity to miss out on. Plus I am imagining when FW gets their hands on it, Alpharus and Omegon dueling. Trying to out maneuver one another's forces.
NO WAY Black Library is going to miss out on a Civil War between the only two actual real brothers during the Galactic Civil War that is...The Horus Heresy!
In a Brotherhood of Brothers, two Brothers will leave their bonds of Brotherhood in a Bitter Battle between Blood Brothers!
Now there's a good secondary title for the next Alpha Legion HH book!
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Yeah it has to happen, its too good of an opportunity to miss out on. Plus I am imagining when FW gets their hands on it, Alpharus and Omegon dueling. Trying to out maneuver one another's forces.
I have to admit - I didn't even think about FW putting the two brothers into a diorama together, fighting each other! Too obvious, so much so that I missed it?!?
Of course HH3 didn't even actually admit to the existence of Omegon, so I think we've got a ways to go before we see an Omegon model, sadly!
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Yeah it has to happen, its too good of an opportunity to miss out on. Plus I am imagining when FW gets their hands on it, Alpharus and Omegon dueling. Trying to out maneuver one another's forces.
I have to admit - I didn't even think about FW putting the two brothers into a diorama together, fighting each other! Too obvious, so much so that I missed it?!?
Of course HH3 didn't even actually admit to the existence of Omegon, so I think we've got a ways to go before we see an Omegon model, sadly!
Sometimes the most obvious thing is easiest to miss.
I'm sure we will be getting more details of the XXth Legion as the series goes on, I mean heck, they are already getting more Word Bearers stuff out in the next book, and there are still Legions they haven't introduced. I think the Alphas will make their next major appearance when they bring in the White Scars.
Maybe Omegon will become more common knowledge later in the Heresy, if there's a big schism, and then I could see there being rules for him. At the moment I can see why he's not mentioned, he wasn't known about and they're written like history books, but if he's revealed at some point then...
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
It's page 238 in Deliverance Lost However, it could be your right, though they refer to the "glass casing" as "open."
A split may have happened after; "Alpharius" notices pod XX is the same size as the other pods.
ImAGeek wrote: Maybe Omegon will become more common knowledge later in the Heresy, if there's a big schism, and then I could see there being rules for him. At the moment I can see why he's not mentioned, he wasn't known about and they're written like history books, but if he's revealed at some point then...
A little part of me hopes they keep him shrouded in mystery, and not release much more on Alpha legion.
NO WAY Black Library is going to miss out on a Civil War between the only two actual real brothers during the Galactic Civil War that is...The Horus Heresy!
In a Brotherhood of Brothers, two Brothers will leave their bonds of Brotherhood in a Bitter Battle between Blood Brothers!
Now there's a good secondary title for the next Alpha Legion HH book!
If the latest ones are anything to go by, I'm guessing Slithering Serpent Snake Silently.
NO WAY Black Library is going to miss out on a Civil War between the only two actual real brothers during the Galactic Civil War that is...The Horus Heresy!
In a Brotherhood of Brothers, two Brothers will leave their bonds of Brotherhood in a Bitter Battle between Blood Brothers!
Now there's a good secondary title for the next Alpha Legion HH book!
If the latest ones are anything to go by, I'm guessing Slithering Serpent Snake Silently.
Dont forget there is a whole slew of Serpents they can use in addition to the Hydras they use.
Just imagine Codex: Alpha Legion; The Serpent's Fangs, the Scales of the Viper, what ever of the Ouroboros, Hydra's magic pencil.
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
It's page 238 in Deliverance Lost However, it could be your right, though they refer to the "glass casing" as "open."
A split may have happened after; "Alpharius" notices pod XX is the same size as the other pods.
You are indeed correct, however on p239
Deliverance Lost
Each of the incubators was numbered on its side. Corax quickly sought out number 19, his own chamber. He realised something was wrong as he approached. The incubator was incomplete, its insides missing like a tomb with no coffin withing
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
It's page 238 in Deliverance Lost However, it could be your right, though they refer to the "glass casing" as "open."
A split may have happened after; "Alpharius" notices pod XX is the same size as the other pods.
You are indeed correct, however on p239
Deliverance Lost
Each of the incubators was numbered on its side. Corax quickly sought out number 19, his own chamber. He realised something was wrong as he approached. The incubator was incomplete, its insides missing like a tomb with no coffin withing
Weird, not in mine! Mine's paperback and it's near the bottom.
Have a gender when you get in, it's on the opposite page to where the glass is mentioned I think.
Derr, I was looking at this:
Corax recognised them immediately: the incubators of the primarchs. They were empty of their artificial amniotic fluids, their glass cases raised open.
Have a gender when you get in, it's on the opposite page to where the glass is mentioned I think.
Derr, I was looking at this:
Corax recognised them immediately: the incubators of the primarchs. They were empty of their artificial amniotic fluids, their glass cases raised open.
It does raise the question though, how did the Glass remain intact when the Chaos Gods ripped them from the Laboratory and how did Horus gaze into the tank with glass in the way?
If the Primarchs retain their allegedly perfect memory, why wouldn't they be able to look back now and remember their births in the pods? Previously, they could have written it off as a strange dream. With the coming of the Emperor and Great Crusade, surely they gave those dreams more thought.
Fulgrim admits in VS that Primarch memories can be tampered with, so it's possible that the warp influence in scattering them also corrupted these memories.
It does raise the question though, how did the Glass remain intact when the Chaos Gods ripped them from the Laboratory and how did Horus gaze into the tank with glass in the way?
I might have misread things, but I got the impression from the Forge World writeup of the Alpha Legion that they might have inherited one (or both) of the Primarchs from the 'lost' legions.
There's also a little hint in there that one of the lost legions went bad because of 'tainted' recruits being used rather than a flaw with the Primarch.
) you seem to have gotten this from lore that isn't widely distributed/available or (rather poor) fanfiction
