Brennonjw wrote:
before I comment, are these added or removed, or the base of what the mode becomes?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Why did you increase Tigerius' points he was fine IMO.

I've noticed a few things that I like:
For instance cheaper pistols and combi-weapons, but you still didn't let terminators take 2 heavy weapons per 5 models which has been a concern for them for awhile.


Info fact, 2 special/heavy per5 should be adopted by most units(like tacs) codex wide.

I like alot of this though: Good job

 koooaei wrote:
Don't you want to rework shield eternal?

Traditio wrote:
I generally agree with the reduction of combiweapon costs, but the way that you currently have them still don't make sense. Why should a combimelta cost 10 points? That's as much as a meltagun. Why should a combiflamer cost 5 points? That's as much as a flamer.

The better solution is to make combiweapons cost one half, rounded up to the nearest point, of what the actual weapon costs. Thus, 3 points for a combiflamer, 5 points for a combimelta and 8 points for a combiplasma.

Zagman wrote:I wanted to reduce their costs, but not in a way that proved overpowering for units like aster guard. Usually it's the first shot with a Melta or Flamer that does the most damage and this is a way to get in that single shot. They're they bring overwhelming force, when you need it, option and that premium is the points differential.

How many times does a Melta usually fire? 1-2 times per game, when it counts, that's why IMO. And it isn't like people didn't find the costs acceptable before.

I actually buffed Legion of the Damned, dropped their cost by 1ppm, 5pts cheaper Plasma Gun, and 5pts cheaper Power Weapon in like with the other changes.

Traditio wrote:

Zagman wrote:I wanted to reduce their costs, but not in a way that proved overpowering for units like aster guard. Usually it's the first shot with a Melta or Flamer that does the most damage and this is a way to get in that single shot. They're they bring overwhelming force, when you need it, option and that premium is the points differential.

How many times does a Melta usually fire? 1-2 times per game, when it counts, that's why IMO. And it isn't like people didn't find the costs acceptable before.

This amounts to 32 points for a sternguard with a combimelta that he can shoot once. It's worthy of note that the previous space marines codex (5th edition?) priced all sternguard combiweapons at 5 points. You might say that 5 points is too cheap, but I still say that there's no way that one should have to pay full price for a weapon that he gets to use once. Maybe 8 points instead?

I actually buffed Legion of the Damned, dropped their cost by 1ppm, 5pts cheaper Plasma Gun, and 5pts cheaper Power Weapon in like with the other changes.

I realized that afterwards.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I think devastators' should be able to take up to 4 heavy OR specials.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Typically heavy weapons/ specials are interchangeable I believe.

It provides an alternative to loading up on sternguard specials and lets you use their SIU more fully.

Also it gives a wider variety of roles for devastors to fill.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Ok how about 2 specials or 4 heavies?

Also sternguard lose the ability to take special/heavy.

Tactical Marines
If the squad numbers ten models, two Space Marines may choose from either the Special Weapons or the Heavy Weapons List.

It was Sternguard, not Vanguard Vets that can take two.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

It was Sternguard, not Vanguard Vets that can take two.

That's what I said...

 koooaei wrote:
So, you get Honor guard - veterans 2+ armor and power weapons for 20 pt a piece? Basically, 2 pt over VV for power weapons and 2+ armor?

Calgar doesn't need a pt drop as he's allready good.

I also think you underprice heavy weapons. HB for 5 pt is too cheap. I'd like to see it become Salvo 2/3. Will add to variety and it'll find a place in tac squads even for 10 pts. And HB marines look cool.

Think you're underpricing weapons. combi-plasma should cost 10 pt as it is. So is plasma pistol. +1 attack and a s7 ap2 shot is well worth 10 pt on combat characters. Completely agree with combi-flamers and grav weaponry. But lazcannons for 15 pt and ML for 15 is way too cheap.

Centurion assault squad needs something more going on for them rather than a simple price drop.

Terminator Assault Squad: 150pts, 30pts/model
Any Model may Replace Lightning Claws for a Thunderhammer and a Stormshield: 10pts/model

Martel732 wrote:
Overall, I like what you have here. I think there are some inescapable problems, so I won't be so harsh.

Assault marines are still bad. No, I don't have any bright ideas with the corner GW has painted them into. But this dovetails into... BA.

BA are an assault list with a poor model count that relies on armor saves in a game full of AP 2 and wound spam. Oh, and they have to be the ones to get off an assault or they are basically just chumpo marines. Intimidated yet?

I don't want to have a reflex reaction of proposing a bunch of nonsense here, and so I have surprisingly few ideas of what to do when the entire GAME is slanted against what your list is supposed to be able to do.

Before I forget though, I think Stormravens are overcosted at 200 pts.

Maybe I'll think of some BA stuff here eventually. But as I said, the entire game is pretty much geared against them now.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
For BA, give them back their Scouting Baal Predators. It is the only way to make it worth its points. Also, Flamestorm Cannons (both the Redeemer and Baal Pred variants) should be Torrent.

EDIT: Honestly, I think BA should have access to the Stormtalon, Land Speeder Storm, and the Hunter/Stalker. The Hunter or Stalker would be pretty cool to see with Overcharged Engines.

Bharring wrote:Flamestorm + Torrent + Scout is probably a bit too much combined.

For BA, if other variants get Heavy Flamers, Furious Charge might not be enough. Perhaps we should go through what they get (per Zagmans)? Off the top of my head
-FC
-Infernus Pistols
-Hand Flamers
-Specials on assault Squads
-Some Fast vehicles

Some nice stuff, sure. Perhaps add a d3" move upon Deep Striking via Jetpacks (Not a run)? Would make it easier to bring a lot of their ASM options to bear.

Reducing scatter by d6 for all deep strikers might be a bit much. Perhaps only on JPs, but I think it'd be better to not monkey with DS rules.

I don't think they need anything amazing on top of the above compared to Vanilla, but I wouldn't necessarily be opposed.

Martel732 wrote:"-FC
-Infernus Pistols
-Hand Flamers
-Specials on assault Squads
-Some Fast vehicles "

Really? Compared to grav cents, Tiggy, TFCs, and Stormtalons?

And everyone wants to give BA deep strike shenanigans when I have even tried deep striking since 5th? Because it sucks?

"Assault Marines got better, 3pts for Jump Pack and swap Bolter for CCW. That's pretty standard and fair compared to a Tactical marine. What they did get is a cheaper Seargent, Cheaper Plasma Weapons(Will be 10pt Melta and 10pts Plasma Gun for BA), and cheaper upgrades for the Sergeant. "

None of that makes them better at assaulting. Which is in their name.

"IMO the Stormraven is costed appropriately. Compared to the other Flyers it has similar and usually much firepower, but is AV12. AV12 on a Flyer with Melta resistance is pretty hard to come by, especially with Transport capacity. "

It starts in reserve. Strike one. Its transport capacity is useless because of the crash rules. Strike two. Its firepower/pt is actually rather low. Strike three. AP1/2 nerf in 7th ed: Strike 4. At its current cost, I would never use this thing, ever. Its only real use was shooting down helldrakes with low AP weapons, but it can't even do that anymore.

I say the problems with BA are inescapable because they are marines trying to assault people in a game where low AP, high ROF is very common. Furthermore, once the survivors get to range, all the opponent needs to do is assault the BA to take away all their bonuses. It's frankly pretty pathetic. How do you appropriately costed a concept that just fails in the context of the core rule set?

For this to be a truly balancing errata, you need to make BA and DA not perma-second class citizens in the realm of meqs. Which they still are, as far as I can tell from this errata.

Martel732 wrote:
I wasn't referring to you with that, but rather, Bharring's comments.

DS is risky, but with no real pay off. That's why I never do it without a drop pod.

Sorry for being hostile, but Bharring's non-chalant attitude of everything being fine in BA land is really grating. Especially from an Eldar player. Who basically flop themselves onto the board with whatever units and win against BA.

Bharring wrote:Seeing as I also play SM, and of all the things you listed, only own one StormTalon, dismissing me as just an Eldar player seems off.

BA aren't fine compared to Eldar. I really don't think I have ever said that.

All the changes to SM stuff that BA have too will clearly transfer to BA. And for custom stuff, Zag will obviously try to balance them.

My comments on Chapter Tactics were about Chapter Tactics. I was trying to compare the differences between units that both use - Tacs, ASMs, Rhinos, etc - to try to get to a baseline for what BA need.

In that regard, things like SM Tacs getting Grav Guns and pistols as an option vs BA Tacs getting Hand Flamers (and do they get Infernus Pistols?) should probably factor in. I'd think we'd want SM Tacs/Devs/ASMs to be roughly equal, but somewhat different. I was considering the whole of the differences in those respects to be effectively Chapter Tactics.

Things like Tiggy, Cents, TFC, etc versus Dante, Sanguinary Guard, etc I'd rather not fully factor into Chapter Tactics. Sure, BA get the short end RAW right now. I assumed Zag would address them, and hoped he'd do it without making one side's standard Battle Company stuff better than the other.

Sorry if it can across as sounding like 'BA need nerfs'. Not my intent. My post was short sighted.

Two potential sticking points are ASM specials and fast vehicles. I'd think ASM specials would be considered part of chapter flavor, and possibly chapter tactics, but i can see the counterargument (3xMelta Pods aren't the same as a skirmisher ASM squad). As for Fast vehicles, seems to be in the same vein as IWND vehicles or getting to Scout because the unit inside has Scout. For "free" would be too much, but I don't know how much it'd cost.

Martel732 wrote:I don't really care if other chapters have melta or not on ASMs, because it's not really making BA ASMs good, because melta is not that good anymore. Only when you get lucky vs high value vehicles. Melta is total crap against MCs due to poor range and lack of ROF. All the things BA DO get, I'm fine with everyone having them, because they aren't doing us any good as it is. Chapter flavor doesn't matter when it's a big ball of fail.

Bharring wrote:I would love Melta on my ASMs, but it feels like a BA thing to me.

I hope I'm not just channeling the ' BA are the ASM chapter' concept, because that was terrible.

BAs do need to not be a big ball of fail. What that entails is a very complex question. Most of the top end has been toned down. Most of the Battle Company stuff has also received minor buffs. Hopefully the right balance can be hit. I hope their Tacs aren't buffed into strictly-superior just to balance out things like Storm Talons and TFCs. That balance should, IMO, come elsewhere.

Martel732 wrote:
Sanguinary guard, for example, are super frustrating because on paper they are really good, but in practice, AP 2 weapons just end up owning them. Really badly.

This is because players are savvy and most bring a solid mix of ROF wound spam and cheap AP2 just in case there is something like a Dreadknight that needs killing. At least, those players that are playing lists that can do this.

Marines really struggle with high S wound spam, but can bring plenty of AP 2, albeit short range. But unfortunately for Sang Guard, they have to get to short range.

Come to think of it, Sang Guard suck compared to say, Broadsides, another 2+ armor unit for the same reason the Dreadknight is child's play compared to a Riptide. Units that are only effective at short range have to charge into all the most deadly weapons in the game, while long range units have to contend with very few threats.

So how to price this unit? Use its "on paper" value, or its value as the game is actually played? As they stand now, I would never use this unit because they are just going to get smoked.

"I have no doubt its possible to re-balance BA, give them some flavor, and make them roughly an equal but different and flavorful option to normal SM. "

I'm glad someone thinks this, because charging expensive models at gun lines, or worse, mobile heavy weapon platforms, in a futile attempt to get into assault range is the current BA job description. BA firepower is poor, because melta is now poor, so transports are also a serious problem. Yes, you can use them other ways, and that's when we get into C:SM -1 or C:SM -2 territory.

I'm glad someone thinks this, because charging Overcosted models at gun lines, or worse, mobile Undercostedheavy weapon platforms, in a futile attempt to get into assault range is the current BA job description.

Martel732 wrote:
It's hard for me, because all I ever take on are gold standards.

Martel732 wrote:
I guess we should do an inventory of what BA lose and gain, but that probably belongs in the actual BA thread. Protip: even with your changes to grav cents, they are still better than any BA special unit by a long shot.

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess we should do an inventory of what BA lose and gain, but that probably belongs in the actual BA thread. Protip: even with your changes to grav cents, they are still better than any BA special unit by a long shot.

This will be the BA thread. One entire thread per Dex was anusive to the forum, so I decided to group them as best as I could. IoM PA guys got this thread, plus their discussions are relevant to each other.

Grav Cents aren't bad when the aren't stuck in borrowed Pods or in a Cent Star.

Grav Cents are 5pts cheaper(Searent Upgrade) but have lost 20% of their firepower. They no longer can borrow pods due to BB being Allies of Convenience. The only star that is left is Tiggy, or other Libbies. The need Gate, so that means no Invisibikity. No Gate Driago Tank. And Tiggy costs 20pts more. That has gone a very long way to balancing Grav Cents.

Martel732 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess we should do an inventory of what BA lose and gain, but that probably belongs in the actual BA thread. Protip: even with your changes to grav cents, they are still better than any BA special unit by a long shot.

This will be the BA thread. One entire thread per Dex was anusive to the forum, so I decided to group them as best as I could. IoM PA guys got this thread, plus their discussions are relevant to each other.

Grav Cents aren't bad when the aren't stuck in borrowed Pods or in a Cent Star.

Grav Cents are 5pts cheaper(Searent Upgrade) but have lost 20% of their firepower. They no longer can borrow pods due to BB being Allies of Convenience. The only star that is left is Tiggy, or other Libbies. The need Gate, so that means no Invisibikity. No Gate Driago Tank. And Tiggy costs 20pts more. That has gone a very long way to balancing Grav Cents.

I understand that, but they are still way better than DC, Sang Guard, Furiosos and the like.

Martel732 wrote:
I have actually NEVER seen a footslogging grav cent. Actually, I can't remember the last time I took on a non-invis grav star. I really hate that forge world arse hole librarian.

"Hard to do direct comparisons."

But we have to, because we have to consider what BA gain and lose vis a vis vanilla marines.

Martel732 wrote:
My problem is that I have no clue how BA would fare against these grav centurions. Sounds silly, but I really don't. Better, sure, but how much better?

Martel732 wrote:
I'll try to find someone.

Martel732 wrote:
I looked at the Tau thread. In general, I like it, but with reduced centurions, I'm not sure how marines ever kill Riptides. I didn't see the FNP option for them removed, nor the nova shield.

 Aenarel wrote:
What a surprise! I was myself working on some erratas for 40k and was planning to post them on the forum soon to get some thoughts and help but you were faster than me! Since we share the same goal I'll just post a link to download my version of the Space marines codex, unfortunately it's only in french for the moment and isn't quite as finished as I would like it to be since I kinda froze the project when I learnt that GW was making a new one. I hope you won't mind me posting my stuff here but I'd find it pretty redundant to have multiples topic on the same subject of balancing 40k. Keep in mind that it's only half finished and that a lot of things are imbalanced at the moment (sternguard are a bit too much imo in my version).

http://www.partage-fichiers.com/upload/6xfq32ft/

Here's some screens for people who don't want to DL the whole thing :

Spoiler:

I'm currently working on an unpdate on the chaos space marines codex and I'll post a more detailed comment again later since I need to go at the moment.

Keep the good work man.

Very interesting, though I don't know if you can have those posted due to IP rigth ad images as such. But, once this project gets further I'd hope to find someone with your skill to make pretty looking Erratas, very well done. Our Tactical Squad modifications are spot on, though I don't know if you changed Special and Melee WEapon prices at all.

And I'd worry about how your Captian on a Bike with THunderhammer and Stormshield and artificer armor would be. Definitaly got cheaper, don't know if that was needed on the base Captain.

Martel732 wrote:
"You nerfed the grav weapons which is good and needed but I don't think it's in a good way since they're still better plasma gun imo and have the same niche. Make them AP3 and remove the ridiculous auto immobilised dammage on the vehicles. "

Then 2+ armor MCs have to go.

Aenarel wrote:

Very interesting, though I don't know if you can have those posted due to IP rigth ad images as such. But, once this project gets further I'd hope to find someone with your skill to make pretty looking Erratas, very well done. Our Tactical Squad modifications are spot on, though I don't know if you changed Special and Melee WEapon prices at all.

And I'd worry about how your Captian on a Bike with THunderhammer and Stormshield and artificer armor would be. Definitaly got cheaper, don't know if that was needed on the base Captain.

Actually my version cost the same as it is in the GW codex since I changed the bike price to 30 points to balance the points drop of the captain. My thought was that a foot captain is pretty bad at the moment and was worthy of a point reduction. On the other hand the biker captain was okay so I didn't change the final cost. It's listed in the pdf that you can donwload in my previous post. The 3 pictures I posted are only a very small part of the thing, my codex is 60 pages long so it's a bit much to post directly in the forum. Download it if you're curious, most of the changes are tentative changes (and in french unfortunately) but some feedbacks are definitely welcomed (on the balance or the design).

In your erratas I noticed that you changed the White Scars tactics but didn't touch the others. According to me the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Salamanders tactics are perfectly fines as it is but the the Black Templars, Iron Hands and Raven Guard ones are underwhelming imo. I don't really like what you did to the White Scars (it's still too strong imo, I'd prefer to let them keep Skilled Riders and remove Hit and Run). Though honestly I don't really know what to do witt them, maybe give Hit and Run to jumpack units of the Raven Guards (and perhaps a 4th Fast attack choice). I tried giving the Black Templars a rule that allowed them to make a bonus 1D6 movement when they suffer a loss during the ennemy psychic or shooting phase in the direction of an ennemy unit but that could be abused to flee from units trying to charge you and restricting the movement to the closet ennemy would be abused by shooting army. So I came to a dead end.

You nerfed the grav weapons which is good and needed but I don't think it's in a good way since they're still better plasma gun imo and have the same niche. Make them AP3 and remove the ridiculous auto immobilised dammage on the vehicles.

I'd also like to see the chainsword get a PA5 and maybe make the assault canon a bit more badass with a Heavy 5 or even 6 profile (with the according point cost of course). I liked what you did with the heavy bolter, I made them Salvo 2/4 in my version (but still 10 points) but yours is fine too. And make the assault bolter Assault 3!

Making the dreadnought HP 4 is something I didn't think of but that's actually a pretty nice idea!

What do you think about making the assault terminators, vanguard veterans and honour guard WS5? I think that would help them a bit and would reflect their experience in close combat since as it stand they're as skilled as a devastator which is something I always found odd.

Assault Centurions also need a major rework according to me since at the moment they have more or less the exact same role as the terminators but I'm clueless about what to do with them.


And don't hesitate to ask if you need to give your rules some graphics, I used InDesign to do mine. Took me 10 days to do 60 page so it's quite fast in the end.

Martel732 wrote:"You nerfed the grav weapons which is good and needed but I don't think it's in a good way since they're still better plasma gun imo and have the same niche. Make them AP3 and remove the ridiculous auto immobilised dammage on the vehicles. "

Then 2+ armor MCs have to go.

Aenarel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"You nerfed the grav weapons which is good and needed but I don't think it's in a good way since they're still better plasma gun imo and have the same niche. Make them AP3 and remove the ridiculous auto immobilised dammage on the vehicles. "

Then 2+ armor MCs have to go.

That wouldn't actually be a problem since there is only the Riptide and maybe an upgraded Daemon prince who are 2+ MCs if I recall correctly. As it stands I feel the gravitron is just too good at everything. His only real weakness are tough models with a gakky save but that's not really something you see a lot this days (except chaos spawn). Killing terminators or things like that should be the plasma's job but the gravitron actually does it better and can still destroy any vehicles pretty decently (two 6 = 3 hull points).

Martel732 wrote:
"There is plenty of of AP2 out there for the two 2+ MCs, and only the Dreadnight is competent in assault. "

But you need so much against the Riptide. And the Riptide is far from incompetent in assault, assuming you can ever catch the thing before it kills you.

Martel732 wrote:
"Once the Nova is factored in the Riptide is less durable than the Dreadnight on the table. Why so much hate for the Riptide?"

Because it easily avoids CC and easily stays out of the range of most weapons that can engage it effectively. It can't be compared to the Dreadknight because the Dreadknight always moves into the teeth of the opponent's guns, whereas the Riptide is nice and safe out at lascannon range. In my experience, Dreadknights die MUCH faster than Ritpides. No option for FNP, no access to 3++, and as I mentioned earlier, has to move within plasma, grav, melta, bladestorm, and wraith cannon range to be effective. So mathematically you may be right, but no Tau player is going to expose the Riptide to the kinds of threats that the Dreadknight must face.

"The Rriptide has to avoid everything that isn't a naked tactical or vehicle on assault."

Not exactly. The Riptide is far from helpless in CC, as it is an MC, GW's favored unit for the last two editions. It gets free AP2 and is almost impervious to common melee attacks. Marine assault squads can't handle it, either. I guess they can tarpit it, but that's far different from being helpless.

I think 2+ armor MCs are overpowered in general, but the Riptide is super bad because it is a long-range firing platform. With pie plates of doom.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't have much to say about the Dreadknight. Never had any problems with them. They shunt in, and get killed. A lot. Maybe they should be a little cheaper. I hear Xeno players complain about it a lot, though. Hard to say.

" T6 3+ isn't good."

Beats the hell out of anything the BA have.

Martel732 wrote:
Putting Tau comments in the Tau thread.

I say that for the Dreadknight only because of its near-suicide mission description. The 2+ armor on the Ritpide is far, far FAR more abusive.

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Putting Tau comments in the Tau thread.

I say that for the Dreadknight only because of its near-suicide mission description. The 2+ armor on the Ritpide is far, far FAR more abusive.

Double standar, and I said we can make a 165pts Shooting Dreadknight that is as effective as the HBC Riptide. You discount this comparison which is a double standard. The fact that no GK player finds having their Dreadknight sit back and shoot its Heavy Psycannon All game as effecient use of points is very telling actually.

Martel732 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Putting Tau comments in the Tau thread.

I say that for the Dreadknight only because of its near-suicide mission description. The 2+ armor on the Ritpide is far, far FAR more abusive.

Double standar, and I said we can make a 165pts Shooting Dreadknight that is as effective as the HBC Riptide. You discount this comparison which is a double standard. The fact that no GK player finds having their Dreadknight sit back and shoot its Heavy Psycannon All game as effecient use of points is very telling actually.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I find the Riptide incredibly difficult to deal with compared to the Dreadknight due to range and speed issues. The Dreadknight practically serves itself up for me every game. Maybe they should sit back against BA. I don't know. It's not like a typical BA can take them out at range.

Martel732 wrote:
"Having their DK Rush you may just take enough pressure off the rest of their army to really help them make it to Czc."

The thing about GK is that they have no way to enter close combat on their terms against BA. They shunt up close, they get assaulted. If I'm using Baal STrike force, they just lost. They shunt up outside assault range, I move back to where they can't assault me to set up an assault the next turn. The DK is just a victim of these circumstances. The DK's HTH capability means very, very little to me because it will never catch me in time. Just like it will never catch a Riptide. I mean, they will catch every grav shot and crumple before they can assault more than likely. Mobility is at least one thing that BA have. Unfortunately, that mobility is actually more useful for running away than catching something like a Riptide, because it's even faster.

The Riptide should be able to outrun a Daemon or TMC I would think. The probably is that greedy Tau players who play all IA have crippled themselves against lists with MCs while stomping meqs into the dirt. But BA have no MCs to take advantage of this. We just lose.

Even EWO means nothing to me, because why would they fire their IA with no support after my movement? BA firepower is not that great, so they are better off just letting me shoot and then firing in normal mode on their turn.

EWO, to me, was a thing with the old school Vanguard because getting to assault from DS was huge against Tau. Now I'm dropping in what? Triple melta ASM? Fragnoughts? Maybe Sternguard? The Riptide cares not for these and the other units will likely be bubblewrapped with Kroot, Riptides or terrain.

"Maybe against BA the Riptide is really tough to kill, but balance is about all the armies in scope."

So who can easily deal with a Riptide other than a grav star? Maybe Wraiths and TWC? Who is engaging in a shoot out and not just getting crushed? Even scatter bikes will struggle mightily wounding on 4+ and trying to get through 2+/5+++

Martel732 wrote:
" You believe the Dreadknight is balanced? Or should it be cheaper, just because your BA are well suited to dealing with them?"

I believe there are lots of lists that can smoke a 2+ armor MC that is 12" away from. So I guess I'd call that balanced. I still don't like 2+ armor MCs at all, and I think they should be 3+ armor, with whatever points reduction that gives them.

I don't really have that many suggestions for BA units, because I think they are a failed concept in 7th ed. I think that firepower is still king by far and BA, conceptually, fare poorly at that game. They don't have the numbers and power armor is not enough protection to get them into HTH anymore. What's left to do? They are enslaved to costs in the main marine book, who can fall back on superior shooting. Even discounted sanguinary guard will be targeted by AP 2 and eliminated before they can do much damage, because they don't need the AP 2 guns to kill the rest of the BA list.

A list needs Wraiths or TWC to be an assault threat, and there's no tweaking BA to get something like that. They're just hordes of meq losers that will be gunned down by the kings of 40K: the firepower lists. An assault list now needs both speed and true resiliency, not fake power armor resiliency.

Martel732 wrote:
The SM are still packing more efficient air units, grav cents (even nerfed they are better than anything the BA can field by far), TFCs, better chapter tactics, better FW support, better special characters, and biker troops.

Let me look at the SM changes again very carefully here.

I don't see any price drops on the stuff I usually use. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't have my marine book in front of me. I guess maybe I'd start using some of the stuff I don't use now? But giving a marine even a 5 pt upgrade really increases how much you lose when it gets fragged. I'm still finding that my marine units are dying too quickly to get good use out of what upgrades I do give them. I never use pistols or power weapons as it is, and I'm not sure I'd start even at these prices. I'm not seeing the 10% reduction on the stuff that I use.

I'm still seeing lists built around grav cents, which BA just don't have. And let's not forget the poor DA in all of this. They have nearly all the problems of the BA plus a couple more.

Martel732 wrote:
"What have you been using? "

I haven't been using ASM at all. Because they are bad. And even if I did, I certainly wouldn't arm them with rapid fire weapons.

". Like I said, pretty much the best Grav Star left is a Tigerious one and it's more fragile and has to decide between likely getting Gat or likely getting a lower powered Invisibility. "

I'm just saying that while it is very much nerfed, it's still much better than anything the BA have.

Maybe give the BA their FNP bubble back on priests. That way we can pretend to be almost as good as Necrons. Except without wraiths or Gauss. Or flying transports.

Martel732 wrote:
"Also, moved ASM back to Troops. "

Oh, really? That actually changes things quite a bit, there. That's more jump pack bodies or triple-special in a Rhino bodies.

Assault Squad: 70pts, 14pts/model *Moved From Fast Attack
Wargear: Remove Jump Pack
The entire squad may take Jump Packs... 3pts/model
Up to two Space Marines may replace their Bolt Pistols with one of the following... Flamer: 5pts; Hand Flamer: 5pts; Plasma Pistol: 7pts; Meltagun: 10pts; Plasma Gun: 10pts; Inferno Pistol: 10pts;
May upgrade the Space Marine Sergean to a Veteran Sergeant... 5pts;
Dedicated Transport: The unit may select a Drop Pod, Rhino, or Razorback as a Dedicated Transport.
*Remove "The entire squad may remove their jump packs...."

Martel732 wrote:
Get rid of the free transport; just make the bonus 3pts/model. Not that anyone will ever use a 10 man ASM squad when 5 of them get a three special weapon alpha strike.

I hate tactical marines so much. I wish there was a way to make them remotely fearsome, but I have given up on this for the sake of the overall balance of the game.

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Get rid of the free transport; just make the bonus 3pts/model. Not that anyone will ever use a 10 man ASM squad when 5 of them get a three special weapon alpha strike.

I hate tactical marines so much. I wish there was a way to make them remotely fearsome, but I have given up on this for the sake of the overall balance of the game.

I just made them packless for 3pts/model discount, purchase a transport as needed or upgraded to ASM with Jump Packs. Same effect, but cleaner to implement. The free Pod/Rhino was problematic because a five man was only giving up 15pts worth of Jump Packs for a 35pt transport.

I think Tacticals got better with their ability to field 2 specials or 2 heavies in a ten man squad and those specials and heavies being more cost effective. Ten marines and two heavy weapons combat squaded isn't terrible and good for back field objectives, even gives a Razorback for some more ranged punch for a price tag just north of 200pts. They do MSU at range pretty good. Hell, even combat squadding with two heavy Weapon in a Rhino with cover isn't terrible. Gives one footslogging objective grabber and a pair of heavy weapons in a metal box.

For BA, Tacticals would rarely ever be better than ASM, with the only reason being access to Heavy weapons and backfield support. For Regular marines I feel they'll get more band for their buck now, and Obsec marines are a pain when combat squadding, three units for 175ps +Special/Heavy weapons is fairly cheap and durable units. 2x5 Marines out of a pod each with a different special weapons is significantly better than 2x5 out of a pod with one special weapon.

Martel732 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Get rid of the free transport; just make the bonus 3pts/model. Not that anyone will ever use a 10 man ASM squad when 5 of them get a three special weapon alpha strike.

I hate tactical marines so much. I wish there was a way to make them remotely fearsome, but I have given up on this for the sake of the overall balance of the game.

I just made them packless for 3pts/model discount, purchase a transport as needed or upgraded to ASM with Jump Packs. Same effect, but cleaner to implement. The free Pod/Rhino was problematic because a five man was only giving up 15pts worth of Jump Packs for a 35pt transport.

I think Tacticals got better with their ability to field 2 specials or 2 heavies in a ten man squad and those specials and heavies being more cost effective. Ten marines and two heavy weapons combat squaded isn't terrible and good for back field objectives, even gives a Razorback for some more ranged punch for a price tag just north of 200pts. They do MSU at range pretty good. Hell, even combat squadding with two heavy Weapon in a Rhino with cover isn't terrible. Gives one footslogging objective grabber and a pair of heavy weapons in a metal box.

For BA, Tacticals would rarely ever be better than ASM, with the only reason being access to Heavy weapons and backfield support. For Regular marines I feel they'll get more band for their buck now, and Obsec marines are a pain when combat squadding, three units for 175ps +Special/Heavy weapons is fairly cheap and durable units. 2x5 Marines out of a pod each with a different special weapons is significantly better than 2x5 out of a pod with one special weapon.

I agree they got better, but it's just depressing that the method of improvement was just more AP 2 shots or templates. The way the game works out, the grenades, S, and WS are all mostly wasted.

Martel732 wrote:
The single heavy weapon is never going to fit into a tac squad, I think. That's one of their big failings, conceptually.

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The single heavy weapon is never going to fit into a tac squad, I think. That's one of their big failings, conceptually.

I agree, that is why I made it 2 Specials or Heavies on a ten member squad. The flexibility it offers seems to be the fix they need.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Breaking into the discussion a bit, the Black Templar characters could use some tweaks. Both Grimaldus and the Emperor's Champion need some serious help.

The Emperor's Champion either needs a massive buff (he's 10 points cheaper than a Captain with the Burning Blade and AA under your updated rules) or he needs to have his points cost slashed more or less in half.

Suggestion:

Make the Black Sword S:User+2, AP2, Instant Death. You're still paying 140 points for a 2-wound low-A model, but at least now he'll scare the living hell out of big things, the very targets he should be going after.

Helbrecht is sort-of fine as he is, my only beef is that the Sword of the High Marshals isn't a Relic Blade. If there's one weapon in the Codex that ought to be, it's that. Upping its S to 6 wouldn't break Helbrecht, since he'd still be AP3, but it'd mean he'd at least have better than a 50/50 chance at wounding marines.

Grimaldus is... I don't even know where to start. Chaplains in general need so much help that it's silly.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Helbrecht could probably stay at 180 with the S6 change, it's not like he's going to break the game, what with needing to actually get to CC and being AP3 and all.

An Emperor's Champion with S6 AP2 Instant Death (and an extra attack from the sword going one-handed) would, in my opinion, probably not be broken at 140 points. He still only has 2 wounds and does nothing for your army other than kill things in close combat. For example, Khan, an HQ choice of comparable price at 150 (is that with or without bike BTW? You haven't specified). He gives Scout to more or less your entire army, and unlocks Bikes as Troops to boot if he's on Moondrakkan. A 140-point Emperor's Champion with 4 attacks on the charge at S6 AP2 ID would be dangerous, sure, but he has to actually get to where he's going, and if he gets swarmed by mooks, he's toast.

Regarding Grimaldus, and Chaplains in general really, the changes needed are probably outside the scope of what you're trying to do. Even at 100 points, an 85-point decrease, Grimaldus would still be so-so at best. The old BT book had its issues, but at least you could take 3-wound Chaplains with some groovy wargear and kill people dead.

Renesco P. Blue wrote:If I can throw in my two cents as far as grey knights go.

Return of their "true grit" special rule where their stormbolters counted as pistols in close combat. although they could change the name to something like "titan pattern stormbolters" as they look very different from other storm bolters, being wrist mounted and all.

either introduce actual heavy weapons or give grey knights grav webs so their purgation squads can treat their special weapons as rapid fire or assault or something. right now purgation squads are pointless next to purifiers and paladins

all units get 6++ if they do not already have an invulnerable save. yeah I know it's a sisters thing, but grey knights are supposed to be marines +1 and i think this would make them that without it being too OP

 Mara wrote:
Firstly, I want to thank you Zagman for the huge amount of work you have done in your valiant efforts to bring the utterly broken game closer to a balanced state. I've been thinking of something like this for quite a good time myself, but haven't had the time on my hands to start it, nor the needed knowledge to do it for all the armies. I like what you're doing, evening the gaps both inside the codices and between them. Keep up the good work!

Here's a list of my thoughts concerning the balance errata of SM/BA, mostly the latter as it is my main army.

...

I think that Captain Tycho is currently somewhat obsolete at 130pts (DC version +15pts), as he has lost his ld buff and S:User AP2 armorbane melee attacks, and now only totes his relic combi-melta and digital weapons - not even a chainsword to give him a +1A in combat. He could be discounted further (at least digital weapons went down 5pts), or be given back his old badass melee attacks (he's still footslogging), in which case I would even be fine with a price increase (up to 150pts I think).

Chaplain Lemartes should be at least be made similiar to many other unit leader characters - if he is taken alongside a unit of Death Company, he shouldn't take up a whole elites slot by himself. Pointswise I think he is fine when given the same price drop as the regular Chaplains (good bye Reclusiarchs ).

Astorath the Grim would be in order for the chaplain price drop too, also because his axe is no longer S6 AP2, two handed, forcing re-rolls on invulnerable saves, but rather just a power axe, two handed, with the instant death USR on a roll of '6' to hit, decreasing his reliability against characters with a proper invulnerable save and average strenght when hitting. The axe could be S:+2 AP2, two handed, with either the old inv. re-rolling or the current ID on '6' to hit. Or maybe a regular power axe, but two handed and with ID USR - would that be too good?

I think that Sanguinary Priests should be able to upgrade to terminator armor for equal cost as other characters.

Also, I would suggest that the regular Terminator Squad would be given the option to carry the Company Standard for the regular price, replacing a power fist (no, you don't hold stuff with those fists )

Why is Baal Predator 110pts, while a regular Predator stands at 75pts (with overcharged engines)? I feel like this is an oversight on the pricing, because I don't think that the upgrade from autocannon to TL assault cannon is really worth the 35pts when TL lascannon is only 15pts. I think the Baal Predator's cost should be further cut (95-100pts) to be more in line with the regular predator, unless it was given back Scout USR. Even then the price difference feels a bit steep.

On another note, I think either Baal Predator or Storm Raven should be moved from HS to FA to give more options on the FA choices, especially now that the Assult Marines were moved back to the Troops section.

I'm not sure how the Command Squads will be handled in the coming marine codices, but I feel like they should be available 1/HQ choice without taking a slot, like they used to. Not that they'd be an overly used unit anyway, but now they compete with the rest of the army's great melee infantry, and the whole lot better Chapter Banner toters, the Sanguinary Guard.

Also techmarines could be made "slotless" HQ choices again in the marine codices, maybe 0-2/3 per detachment. HQ choice with 1W just doesn't seem appropriate for a full slot.

Should Scout Sergeants be given access to all the special pistols instead of just plasma, as the heavy flamer was freed up to all units able to choose from heavy weapons? Also, regarding heavy flamer, I think it might be wise to restrict them to a 0-1 upgrade for tactical squads, as otherwise the upgrade completely invalidates the regular flamer upgrade for the unit. Sternguards are okay with that I think, and Devastators could turn out to be pretty interesting choice with 4 heavy flamers when podded at the enemy (might want to exclude them from Devastators, or?).

I would also like to address some of the Blood Angels' relics:

In the light of your points revision, I believe that the Valour's Edge (AP2 power sword) should cost 15pts instead of 20pts, as the lowered AP is only worth 5pts while the sword itself is currently 15pts, as opposed to your suggested 10pts. Or maybe make the sword MC at 20pts.

Also, as you see jump packs worth 10pts instead of current 15pts, I would see a point in bringing Angel's Wings down to 20pts from 25pts.

As the worst offender in the relics section of the codex, I think that the Fury of Baal (MC plasma pistol with no gets hot! USR) is in need of big change at 25pts. Would it be too good if it was a MC inferno pistol with 12" (or 9") range at 20pts, as you suggest 10pts base for the inferno pistols? I don't feel plasma fits BA that well, feels more like a DA relic to me as it is currently (plasma relic + it is bad ).

There's a few relics in need of tweaking in the Shield of Baal: Exterminatus too, on the BA side I think - but let's stick to the codices now.

...

I may come up with other thoughts for this and other balance erratas. Hopefully my "re-balancing" suggestions are at least somewhat sensible. Also, sorry for the long post.