Hey mates just bought the Skyhammer Annihilation Force to get my Marines started. Thinking of going with either the Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, BT, or the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, as I will most likely run other Drop Pod units with this formation. These are some of the ideas that I had to go with the formation:

* Pedro Kantor w/ Honor Guard in a Drop Pod, 2x Tac Squads in Drop Pods. Just a start but would potentially allow me to have a very nasty Alpha Strike army, as I could go Hvy Bolters for the Devestators to capitalize the IF Chapter Tactic and throw in some Sternguard units for the anti-tank.

* BT: Squads in LRC 's would be a great support to this formation, you throw in the EC and some Crusader Squads to create a nasty list.

* Fire Hawks: Utilize the Assault Marines to there full potential, and can be supported by anything as well as the Devestators. A very flexible army Chapter Tactic.

Not sure how I would capitalize on the Raven Guard but advice is most welcome in that regard.

What about the First Company formation to get your Sternguard in pods with Pedro?

 Eldarain wrote:
What about the First Company formation to get your Sternguard in pods with Pedro?

That is another option as well lol. Holy crap I totally forgot about that one. Definitely makes it a super strong Alpha Strike list.

Raven Guard?

Hmmm....

Well if you took the formation as RG you would get those dudes a fat cover save if you arrived on turn 1. Not sure how Winged Deliverance stacks with the rules provided by the formation but I'm sure there has to be a gem in there.

Also, you could functionally use terminators. You can add in a CAD right? If your big fat T1 cover save gets ignored you still have your invul. Not sure points cost, but maybe an HQ in termie armour too? No point taking any transports, so...

Footslog them so people go yay termies! :toomuchdakka:

Laugh as they shoot your distraction and gobble them up with your formation, or laugh even harder as they focus on your formation and your terminators get to do something!

In a large game you could take all terminators in your elite slot, and kit two out with HQs.

Ally in Pedro and his ObSec Sternies. Score all the obeje...ojebe... objetcti...

... fail.


Lol, RG might be the fluffy option for this formation, or it could be the ultimate turn one alpha strike option...

Also!

In typical Raven Guard fashion, part of our CT is already represented by this formations rules, in that ASM may use their packs in movement and assault. However re-rolling to hit and wound gives the humble RG ASM a huuuge boost.

Upon further contemplation I realize that with RG you could field almost anything, and have the survive-ability to go second in a null deployment. It only gets worse and worse for the opponent if you get initiative! The only hope of defeating such a list would be the ability to go first, and have enough firepower to nearly table the opponent in one shooting phase. Then you must withstand the formation itself... Regardless of how you deploy this would still be the case.

Allies and double CAD only make this more insane.

hehehe! Take that White Scars!

(Though in reality WS probably still do it better)





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or be super cheap and use RG to Drop Pod Assault a metric ton of units on turn 1 that the enemy has no hope of killing or making a dent in.

It's pretty much, I brought RG and SAF, I win. Lets play a different list.

take overpowered nonsense formation then laugh at your opponents attempts to deal with it

I would hate to play you IRL

 Dakkamite wrote:

take overpowered nonsense formation then laugh at your opponents attempts to deal with it

I would hate to play you IRL

Me?

Lord no you'd love it!

I'm just pointing out the absolute absurdity of the beast, I'd never expect anyone to play that stuff seriously, unless the Chaos Gods were real and challenged you to a game! Then maybe you should run White Scars, just to be sure! (I remembered to emote!)

It's not so much about laughing at your opponent, in that you ought to both be laughing at the insanity playing out on the table. Call it cheese casserole and accept that it's hilarious.

I'm not advocating that this is what 40k should be, but hey? Maybe this is the way to balance? If everyone gets to pull stunts like the SAF then aren't we all enjoying the "added personality"?

Maaaybeee it's an unintentional return to the tongue in cheek satire of the 80s? Yeah, everything is grim and dark, so grim and dark its funny. You can't even play the game competitively because the tables would simply implode under the weight of all the grim dark cheese!

darkcloak wrote:


Me?

Lord no you'd love it!

I'm just pointing out the absolute absurdity of the beast, I'd never expect anyone to play that stuff seriously, unless the Chaos Gods were real and challenged you to a game! Then maybe you should run White Scars, just to be sure! (I remembered to emote!)

It's not so much about laughing at your opponent, in that you ought to both be laughing at the insanity playing out on the table. Call it cheese casserole and accept that it's hilarious.

I'm not advocating that this is what 40k should be, but hey? Maybe this is the way to balance? If everyone gets to pull stunts like the SAF then aren't we all enjoying the "added personality"?

Maaaybeee it's an unintentional return to the tongue in cheek satire of the 80s? Yeah, everything is grim and dark, so grim and dark its funny. You can't even play the game competitively because the tables would simply implode under the weight of all the grim dark cheese!

People aren't generally amused by having their army butchered and routed turn 1 with no ability to even fight back. It's not really fun, and it's not something I'd enjoy "having a laugh at". Whilst many a 40k player can enjoy losing, it stops being fun when you place your guys on the table and them immediately remove them again without getting to move, fire a shot, or do anything.

So far as everyone doing it.. Where's the Orc equivilent? The IG? How about CSM, where's there laugh-riot formation?

I don't have the new SM codex yet, but this formation really seems to synergize very well with Locator Beacons. What units have access to them? Scouts/Landspeeder Storm/Dark Angels (although they are getting a new book this month).

 morganfreeman wrote:


People aren't generally amused by having their army butchered and routed turn 1 with no ability to even fight back. It's not really fun, and it's not something I'd enjoy "having a laugh at". Whilst many a 40k player can enjoy losing, it stops being fun when you place your guys on the table and them immediately remove them again without getting to move, fire a shot, or do anything.

So far as everyone doing it.. Where's the Orc equivilent? The IG? How about CSM, where's there laugh-riot formation?

Just wait a few weeks apparently, lol!

And yeah dude, obviously I agree with you, but for the sake of having fun I'd gladly step around to the other side of the table. It's not like I haven't suffered those kinds of defeats in 6th! Maybe we would only move the Space Marines though? I mean, if it's over in turn 1 with no hope, then why don't we just move the Marines back and swap places, then you can put the toys where you want and I'll groan dramatically. We could even play it as a Maelstrom mission for extra lulz!

Then we can play that proppa grim dark 40k that we all love!

 Sarigar wrote:
I don't have the new SM codex yet, but this formation really seems to synergize very well with Locator Beacons. What units have access to them? Scouts/Landspeeder Storm/Dark Angels (although they are getting a new book this month).

Inquisitors with servo skulls...

People really need to stop crying about the new Formation, seriously all the whining and complaining non stop about this game is over the top. Its a one trick pony where the larger the point value the game is the less effective the list will become and if you know its coming its not that hard to prepare for.

Back to the OP's topic I vote Imperial Fists, Pedro giving +1 attack to everyone within 12 inches really would help boost your Assault Marines.

New things in general really. Some stuff is strong, but it's much better for discussion to figure out how to beat it instead of acting like the sky is falling every single time...

 gmaleron wrote:
People really need to stop crying about the new Formation, seriously all the whining and complaining non stop about this game is over the top. Its a one trick pony where the larger the point value the game is the less effective the list will become and if you know its coming its not that hard to prepare for.

Back to the OP's topic I vote Imperial Fists, Pedro giving +1 attack to everyone within 12 inches really would help boost your Assault Marines.

IF currently have the lead, as I do love the idea using Pedro with Sternguard from the first company and this formation. However the Templar in me likes the idea of charging in with Crusaders while the Assault Marines distract my opponents. I have some options so just depends on how things work out.

 n0t_u wrote:
New things in general really. Some stuff is strong, but it's much better for discussion to figure out how to beat it instead of acting like the sky is falling every single time...

I know right?! Its just easier to complain and whine and make ridiculous claims and demands. At least we don't have crybabies demanding we ban Space Marines in friendly games, that was pathetic.

We get it. You're feeling empowered because you can finally avenge your butthurt from all of the negative Eldar threads.

I'm a Marine player and I don't like this one bit. BS formations like this are not good for the overall health of the game.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
We get it. You're feeling empowered because you can finally avenge your butthurt from all of the negative Eldar threads.

I'm a Marine player and I don't like this one bit. BS formations like this are not good for the overall health of the game.

Can we stay on topic guys. And is it strong, yes but it can be countered. And this formation actually makes Assault Marines viable again, so I think it's a good formation overall.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
We get it. You're feeling empowered because you can finally avenge your butthurt from all of the negative Eldar threads.

I'm a Marine player and I don't like this one bit. BS formations like this are not good for the overall health of the game.

Seriously? You are completely overreacting to this Formation. At smaller point games this thing will be nasty but the larger the points its effectiveness will drop off significantly. And if anyone is butt hurt apparently its you not being able to get over these Formations, guess what its happening and sticking around. Instead of moaning about maybe think constructively about countering it.

A counter huh? I know I could give GW a lot more money!

 gmaleron wrote:
People really need to stop crying about the new Formation, seriously all the whining and complaining non stop about this game is over the top. Its a one trick pony where the larger the point value the game is the less effective the list will become and if you know its coming its not that hard to prepare for.

Why do Marines get a free pass where literally any other army getting something comparable to the Skyhammer would have them frothing? I mean I agree with you, but I don't like how it seems everyone suddenly changed their attitude when Marines got theirs.

If Eldar got this formation people would be livid, and complaining non-stop about how Eldar break all the rules and it takes no thought or skill to play them. "Your assault units are guaranteed to get into assault and I can't stop it! That's bullgak!"

Ok people stay on topic. Sick and tired of people whining over a game. If you don't like it don't play. As it stands please stay on topic.

 morganfreeman wrote:


People aren't generally amused by having their army butchered and routed turn 1 with no ability to even fight back. It's not really fun, and it's not something I'd enjoy "having a laugh at". Whilst many a 40k player can enjoy losing, it stops being fun when you place your guys on the table and them immediately remove them again without getting to move, fire a shot, or do anything.

So far as everyone doing it.. Where's the Orc equivilent? The IG? How about CSM, where's there laugh-riot formation?

None of those, but Tau are apparently coming, and with them more fun (tm) web-exclusive formations that can probably shoot you before you even deploy, all long before the OP will likely have had a chance to get its stuff painted. Welcome to 40K.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
People really need to stop crying about the new Formation, seriously all the whining and complaining non stop about this game is over the top. Its a one trick pony where the larger the point value the game is the less effective the list will become and if you know its coming its not that hard to prepare for.

Why do Marines get a free pass where literally any other army getting something comparable to the Skyhammer would have them frothing? I mean I agree with you, but I don't like how it seems everyone suddenly changed their attitude when Marines got theirs.

If Eldar got this formation people would be livid, and complaining non-stop about how Eldar break all the rules and it takes no thought or skill to play them. "Your assault units are guaranteed to get into assault and I can't stop it! That's bullgak!"

100% agree with this. It's the usual IoM bias

 gmaleron wrote:
People really need to stop crying about the new Formation, seriously all the whining and complaining non stop about this game is over the top. Its a one trick pony where the larger the point value the game is the less effective the list will become and if you know its coming its not that hard to prepare for.

Back to the OP's topic I vote Imperial Fists, Pedro giving +1 attack to everyone within 12 inches really would help boost your Assault Marines.

And what are people that play 1500pts suppose to do. I played against the dual version of this formation with some cad centurions, four times. Three times I was dead turn one, and one time I was dead turn 2, and only because my opponent had both bad rolls and decided to see what happens if he gives me a free turn doing objectives.

If you run fire hawks then you can get 3 flamers which have +1s on the turn you deepstrike which is awesome.


However since that would fry most opponents before you eassault them maybe just stick the Pedro and get that +1 attack

 Ironwolf45 wrote:
Ok would like to ask the moderator in charge of dakkadakka.com to close and delete this entire thread as people keep crying and complaining about this instead of staying on topic and actually answering my question. Please feel free to ban those who continue to derail this topic so they can vent and whine over a game.

That's not really how stuff works here. For one thing there's more than a single moderator, and the moderators aren't really "in charge" of Dakka. Two, straying off-topic in a thread isn't ban-worthy by itself, unless it happens continuously in the same thread despite repeated requests from the moderators to stop. Three, asking the moderators to ban people is probably just going to irritate them more than anything, they'll ban people when and if the situation calls for it. Four, this thread hasn't even made it past the first page yet, and from what I can tell there have been quite a few on-topic posts in between the off-topic ones, so it seems a bit premature to call for a thread lock and whine about "no one answering your question" when people have actually attempted to engage in discussion with you.

If you want the thread to remain on-topic then the best thing to do is ignore off-topic posts and try to steer things back on course yourself. You should probably expect some off-topic posts, however, simply because the Skyhammer formation is new and somewhat controversial. You're not going to get a thread with completely on-topic posts about something that's got people so worked up, it's just not happening.

As for your question, I can't answer because 1) I don't have the new codex and 2) know feth-all about Marines anyway and don't really care. I have about the same amount of contempt for them as people have for my Tau (and by extension me). Personally though everything in your first post sounds good to me, and it sounds like you kinda already have a good idea about what to do with the formation so I'm not sure what advice you could really use.

Ultramarines are the best chapter tactic for this formation. Anyone who says otherwise isn't ready to accept their spiritual liege. And is wrong, of course.

I also enjoy the irony of someone derailing a thread by crying about people derailing a thread.

Don't see how it's not being derailed when most of the peoples comments are complaining how op it is. And I heard Ultramarines a few times but I have never really could get behind them. Always have liked the Templars due to there fluff and recently started liking the Imperial Fists thank to the HH.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:
Hey mates just bought the Skyhammer Annihilation Force to get my Marines started. Thinking of going with either the Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, BT, or the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, as I will most likely run other Drop Pod units with this formation. These are some of the ideas that I had to go with the formation:

* Pedro Kantor w/ Honor Guard in a Drop Pod, 2x Tac Squads in Drop Pods. Just a start but would potentially allow me to have a very nasty Alpha Strike army, as I could go Hvy Bolters for the Devestators to capitalize the IF Chapter Tactic and throw in some Sternguard units for the anti-tank.

* BT: Squads in LRC 's would be a great support to this formation, you throw in the EC and some Crusader Squads to create a nasty list.

* Fire Hawks: Utilize the Assault Marines to there full potential, and can be supported by anything as well as the Devestators. A very flexible army Chapter Tactic.

Not sure how I would capitalize on the Raven Guard but advice is most welcome in that regard.

I'm honestly not sure how you want people to reply to this without derailing the thread.
There's no real question, apart from advice in how to use RG tactics, but most people say UM are best, followed by IF/CF or Star Phantoms if you use FW.
People are more than welcome to say their opinions of the formation, as there isn't really a guideline for them to follow in the first place.

Yeah if someone says they have the Skyhammer bs Force I'm telling them either they play those as normal CAD squads or I'm taking 600 points of free upgrades with mechanicum/IKs. We'll just play "whoever gets turn one wins" and then maybe we can play a real game after.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
People really need to stop crying about the new Formation, seriously all the whining and complaining non stop about this game is over the top. Its a one trick pony where the larger the point value the game is the less effective the list will become and if you know its coming its not that hard to prepare for.

Why do Marines get a free pass where literally any other army getting something comparable to the Skyhammer would have them frothing? I mean I agree with you, but I don't like how it seems everyone suddenly changed their attitude when Marines got theirs.

If Eldar got this formation people would be livid, and complaining non-stop about how Eldar break all the rules and it takes no thought or skill to play them. "Your assault units are guaranteed to get into assault and I can't stop it! That's bullgak!"

Marine players in general I've found never see anything their army can do as anything remotely obnoxious/game ruining/over powered...
Instead their codex is eternally "middle of the road at best" because Tactical Marines are unplayable apparently, while their cheap av11 transports always die to a stiff breeze, and Drop Pods are merely a way to get their models killed faster.

Can you imagine is Chaos Marines got a formation even half this godly? We'd easily have Loyalist players up in arms demanding that Chaos get banned from every tournament!

Marine butthurt & over entitlement is the driving force of 40k.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah if someone says they have the Skyhammer bs Force I'm telling them either they play those as normal CAD squads or I'm taking 600 points of free upgrades with mechanicum/IKs. We'll just play "whoever gets turn one wins" and then maybe we can play a real game after.

Or you can just play the way it's supposed to be played and not force someone else who wants to utilize the formation to do something else just because you don't like it.

 gmaleron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah if someone says they have the Skyhammer bs Force I'm telling them either they play those as normal CAD squads or I'm taking 600 points of free upgrades with mechanicum/IKs. We'll just play "whoever gets turn one wins" and then maybe we can play a real game after.

Or you can just play the way it's supposed to be played and not force someone else who wants to utilize the formation to do something else just because you don't like it.

In an 1700pts game or under, this formation is pretty much a Turn 1 auto-win for the Marine player.

Experiment 626 wrote:


In an 1700pts game or under, this formation is pretty much a Turn 1 auto-win for the Marine player.

Complete exaggeration and false, this will struggle against certain lists and it is very dependent upon Devastator loadout.

I mean, really, you've basically got the answer to your question already. UM are the best chapter to use this with, but it is of course, your choice, and it sounds like you're going to use one of the chapters in the OP.

Personally, I hate this formation, because it can literally table my army in one turn with no retaliation (assuming my Daemon Prince is killed by devastators and the marine player isn't stupid enough to charge it). On the other hand, I suppose once they've completely wiped the table with me, we might get another game where they don't use the formation, and that might be more fun.

People complaining how OP it is. People complaining that people aren't complaining how OP it is.

In the same thread.

Has everybody got everybody else on block or something?

Poly Ranger wrote:
People complaining how OP it is. People complaining that people aren't complaining how OP it is.

In the same thread.

Has everybody got everybody else on block or something?

They're not complaining hard enough

 gmaleron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah if someone says they have the Skyhammer bs Force I'm telling them either they play those as normal CAD squads or I'm taking 600 points of free upgrades with mechanicum/IKs. We'll just play "whoever gets turn one wins" and then maybe we can play a real game after.

Or you can just play the way it's supposed to be played and not force someone else who wants to utilize the formation to do something else just because you don't like it.

I'm not forcing them to do anything. I'm giving them a choice between both of us playing something enjoyable or both is us playing something that guarantees no fun will be had.

Either we can play a balanced game or we can play a game where, if he goes first, he auto-deletes half my army and if I go first I demolish whatever he starts on the board then I turn on army wide stealth/shrouded and his formation will fail to kill enough and I auto- win.

His choice. We play "roll a single die to see who gets tabled top of turn 2" or we play 40k. Sorry, not sorry.


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Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
People really need to stop crying about the new Formation, seriously all the whining and complaining non stop about this game is over the top. Its a one trick pony where the larger the point value the game is the less effective the list will become and if you know its coming its not that hard to prepare for.

Why do Marines get a free pass where literally any other army getting something comparable to the Skyhammer would have them frothing? I mean I agree with you, but I don't like how it seems everyone suddenly changed their attitude when Marines got theirs.

If Eldar got this formation people would be livid, and complaining non-stop about how Eldar break all the rules and it takes no thought or skill to play them. "Your assault units are guaranteed to get into assault and I can't stop it! That's bullgak!"

Marine players in general I've found never see anything their army can do as anything remotely obnoxious/game ruining/over powered...
Instead their codex is eternally "middle of the road at best" because Tactical Marines are unplayable apparently, while their cheap av11 transports always die to a stiff breeze, and Drop Pods are merely a way to get their models killed faster.

Can you imagine is Chaos Marines got a formation even half this godly? We'd easily have Loyalist players up in arms demanding that Chaos get banned from every tournament!

Marine butthurt & over entitlement is the driving force of 40k.

I mean there is the Charybdis/Zerkers one. More of a points investment just to delete one heavy target and get one unavoidable charge but it's the same obnoxious principle.

Seriously stop whining and suck it up. I have gone against some of the most top tier army lists to date with Sisters of Battle and my Militarum Tempestus army and I have not only been competitive in a few games, I actually beat a few as well. Nothing wrong with a challenge but if people are going to pull this crap good luck getting any games. If someone takes the time to put together a certain list they want to run then no one should have the right to deny them a game. If you don't want to play the game or against that particular army then don't, there is no point complaining about it then.

...think you quoted the wrong person lol

the_scotsman wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah if someone says they have the Skyhammer bs Force I'm telling them either they play those as normal CAD squads or I'm taking 600 points of free upgrades with mechanicum/IKs. We'll just play "whoever gets turn one wins" and then maybe we can play a real game after.

Or you can just play the way it's supposed to be played and not force someone else who wants to utilize the formation to do something else just because you don't like it.

I'm not forcing them to do anything. I'm giving them a choice between both of us playing something enjoyable or both is us playing something that guarantees no fun will be had.

Either we can play a balanced game or we can play a game where, if he goes first, he auto-deletes half my army and if I go first I demolish whatever he starts on the board then I turn on army wide stealth/shrouded and his formation will fail to kill enough and I auto- win.

His choice. We play "roll a single die to see who gets tabled top of turn 2" or we play 40k. Sorry, not sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
People really need to stop crying about the new Formation, seriously all the whining and complaining non stop about this game is over the top. Its a one trick pony where the larger the point value the game is the less effective the list will become and if you know its coming its not that hard to prepare for.

Why do Marines get a free pass where literally any other army getting something comparable to the Skyhammer would have them frothing? I mean I agree with you, but I don't like how it seems everyone suddenly changed their attitude when Marines got theirs.

If Eldar got this formation people would be livid, and complaining non-stop about how Eldar break all the rules and it takes no thought or skill to play them. "Your assault units are guaranteed to get into assault and I can't stop it! That's bullgak!"

Marine players in general I've found never see anything their army can do as anything remotely obnoxious/game ruining/over powered...
Instead their codex is eternally "middle of the road at best" because Tactical Marines are unplayable apparently, while their cheap av11 transports always die to a stiff breeze, and Drop Pods are merely a way to get their models killed faster.

Can you imagine is Chaos Marines got a formation even half this godly? We'd easily have Loyalist players up in arms demanding that Chaos get banned from every tournament!

Marine butthurt & over entitlement is the driving force of 40k.

I mean there is the Charybdis/Zerkers one. More of a points investment just to delete one heavy target and get one unavoidable charge but it's the same obnoxious principle.

I'd argue that the Kharybdis/Khorne Berzerker Formation (KKBF for short ) doesn't have most of the problems that this formation has. Being able to charge after Deep Striking isn't really the main issue, in my opinion. Skyhammer allows you to shoot at up to four units, 1st turn, then pull some stupid rules out which mean that either the units which have been shot at go to ground (50% chance of this happening) or you stay where you are but can't fire overwatch. Then you get the charge, and your units are fethed. KKBF, on the other hand, is literally limited to a single unit (and transport, if you aim for it, but then the Kharybdis is immobilised). It's also around 550pts, so unless you're trying to wipe out a TH/SS Terminator squad in a Land Raider, there's no guarantee that you'll make your points back. It also doesn't do anything about overwatch, so unless you're charging a dedicated close combat squad, a couple of Berzerkers will probably die on the way.

Just because I don't take the strongest moneygrab formations for my armies out of respect for my opponents and a desire to have fun games both players can win makes me the donkey-cave?

Look, this is not hard. I'm not gonna refuse a game with anyone, but if they want to use the strongest game-legal rules available to their faction, I'm not holding back either. They're getting 600 points of free upgrades and universal canticles to the face if they want to run the douche formation for their faction. Theirs is a web-only exclusive formation, mine is exactly the same.

Is the alternative me just bringing my slowed formation army to EVERY game so I stand a chance against people who want to do that? Because I think somehow that would get me fewer games than running a balanced list and kicking it up to 11 only if my opponents want to bring tourney-list crap to a casual game.

Then why are you just focusing on this formation then? Seriously, To Run 5x Devestators w/4x Grav Cannons in a Drop Pod, that's nearly 250 points right there. There are Drawbacks to this formation and I would think being able to run 2x Demi Companies and get free transports would be something people would be more upset about.

Again suck it up and don't play it. Then you have no reason to complain at all.

What are the drawbacks of this formation?

 Blacksails wrote:
What are the drawbacks of this formation?

None. Well, without its synergy ASM are pretty bad. But it's designed for rapid tabling.

Oh I'm aware there are no drawbacks, I just want to hear from our dear friend Ironwolf what he/she thinks the drawbacks are.

I've played SM since 3rd. This formation is insanely overpowered. There is no tax. The benefits far outweigh any tiny semblance of risk. I will never buy or use this formation, not even with proxies for a giggle. It promotes uninteresting gameplay and will make your opponent resent you every single time you plop your models down at the start of turn one. This formation is basically the pure distilled essence of WAAC TFG-ness. Don't try to pretend like it isn't just because Wraithknights and +4 RP Decurion/Canoptek Harvest formations exist. We as a community should just not accept this level of cheese.

I have the components to create a seriously unfun douchey tournament list. Ordinarily my list is nowhere near that level because thankfully I have more of a collector/fluff player meta of people who have played for 20 years and don't care what's hot this week or newer people who don't know. But unlike most people whose choice is play and lose/refuse and don't play, I have a third option

-present the above choice and have either a fun game, or an unfun game I have an exactly 50% chance of winning.

-refuse and have them go find a PUG with someone else. Which means they'll probably wind up stomping a new player, a newcomer to the club or a younger player. Most of the vets use the club forum to set up games since they like having balanced matches. So it's likely that Joe Douchecanoe would be turning someone away who would never come back and might even tell people not to play there.

I'm not expecting him to take me up on the offer, from my experience people who play all out alpha strike lists hate having a 50% chance at winning, they're just there to stomp as efficiently as possible. I'm not going to tailor my list to 100% crush an alpha strike (which again, I probably could since I've got access to a lot of models) I'm just going to do the exact same thing he's doing.

And it'd be exactly the same if he were running Scatbikes and Wraithknights, or a Screamerstar, or 20 free razorbacks, or a Decurion+Harvest.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:
Then why are you just focusing on this formation then? Seriously, To Run 5x Devestators w/4x Grav Cannons in a Drop Pod, that's nearly 250 points right there. There are Drawbacks to this formation and I would think being able to run 2x Demi Companies and get free transports would be something people would be more upset about.

Again suck it up and don't play it. Then you have no reason to complain at all.

If it's no big deal, why can't everybody auto-deepstrike first turn, charge and/or fire relentless?

Seems odd to limit it to just one formation, if it apparently makes no difference to game-balance, whether you can charge/fire heavy weapons on a turn-1 deepstrike or have to wait for turn 2-4 for a no-heavy-weapon, no-charge deep strike.

When you play 40k you have to respect that it's a frickin expensive hobby and not everyone has the cash to keep up with the joneses. Some people have played IG since third ed and can't just drop 1000$ on a new army when yours unexpectedly gets sweet new rules that let them table his IG turn 1. This isn't a video game like League of Legends where a meta shift can be handled by playing a different free character. "Just adapt lol" comes with a MINIMUM 300$ price tag for the other guy.

I have zero respect for the guy who will not tone his list down for a more even matchup when it literally costs him 0$ To do so. Because for every one of those guys that's a regular at a club, 5-10 will get turned away. I cringe every time they show up and cheer every time they leave because they're just toxic to the health of the game.

 Blacksails wrote:
What are the drawbacks of this formation?

It costs points, I guess.

That seals it then. Its worthless.

If GW honestly expects me to pay points for this, they have another thing coming.

I will be sending an e-mail shortly demanding they amend this formation to a free attachment.

Ok so OP you want a helpful post without it being mentioned how OP it is.

Pick UMs CT. Load up on grav cannons on both devestator squads, take combi-grav on the sarges. Go bare on the AM squads. Take everything as 10 man.

Against 3+ armour saves (and assuming t4 for the boltguns) you will be causing 39.3 wounds (after saves from boltguns), across 4 units if you combat squad. So almost the equivalent of 4 full strength tac squads dead in one turn for only 580pts.

Your grav cannons are weak against horde with low saves. But not to worry, those hordes tend to be low leadership so if you shoot them with the devs (maybe 5 bolter guys as you don't really want to waste grav on horde), your assault marines will be rerolling to hit and wound and also get an automatic st4 hit at I10. So they cause 48.75 wounds alltogether on average against ws4 t4 (eg ork) hordes before saves, even better against ws3 and/or t3.

An opponent who can't afford to lose that many models in one turn without reply is a very very rare one indeed so you should by that point have almost surely won the game.

Just in case though you still have 930pts of other units in a 1850game to help scrape off the rest.

Would be better for all concerned if people dialled it down a notch and did stick a wee bit more closely to the topic.

Thank you.


Formation does seem daft , almost beyond belief.

They spent ages pretty much removing altogether the ability to assault after arriving from reserve -- which was annoying for a lot of units but long as this rule was across the board least it was somewhat fair, least you knew that you too would have a turn to deal with any reinforcements before they smashed into your lines.

But this ..??!!??

God.

To me smacks as being a kewl idea that was never really playtested and knocked out to help push the new kits with no regard to how this affects of influences the game.

Congratulations on feeding the monster.

That'll teach 'em to keep writing gakky rules, overcharging for their product, and continue treating their customer base like gak.

But hey, you got yours, right?

Good Job.

Ravenguard CT's don't allow cover save bonuses from shrouded to marines that have left a vehicle. The only bonus you get would be from Winged Deliverance, which are the rerolls of the to wound for Hammer of Wrath.

Has anyone actually played this or played against it yet?????

OP. Don't let folks get you down; dakkadakka has become notorious for it. If your group or club is fine with it, it matters very little what others think.

Last month was the lynchmob mentality over the Eldar codex. This month appears to be this formation. This forrhas great potential and is scarily close to fluff.

For options, you need to figure out how to minimize scatter. Teleport Homers won't work. I am also looking at options with this formation. UM CT seem great as well as Pedro; need to build lists and playtest.

Oh yeah... Right RG can't do anything right anymore...

But all that stuff I said about shrouded Termies could still apply, there is just no point taking the formation as RG because it's like saying "I'll take the Marines, but not a CT".

Buddy brings up a good point about deepstriking those AsMs. Chink in the armour?

I can see a Jamming Beacon doing wonders against this type of assault.

As far as this formation being weak at higher points levels? Take 2. Or any of the other formations in the book. Shore it up with more DPA and ObSec, maybe even some summoning with the Librarius Conclave?

It is not weak at higher points levels. If it is OP for 930pts (forgot the pods above) in a 1500pt or 1850pt game it is still OP for 930pts in your 3000pt list. As it is stronger than any 930pt equivalent and then you still have 2030pts to spend on the rest of your list.
The whole "well it will be poor in a larger game" is a fallacy. It is either OP for its points or its not.

 Sarigar wrote:
This forrhas great potential and is scarily close to fluff.

You could say the same thing about Necrons and Eldar, though.

 gmaleron wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


In an 1700pts game or under, this formation is pretty much a Turn 1 auto-win for the Marine player.

Complete exaggeration and false, this will struggle against certain lists and it is very dependent upon Devastator loadout.

Take Grav Cannons. Problem solved, The type of target becomes irrelevant.

Doesn't matter what you shoot them at then. Tanks? Dead. Heavy Infantry? Dead. Light infantry? force that go-to-ground test and have the AM's mop up (and likely still kill ~8 putzes if you've got 6 bolters to throw in). MC's? Dead.

It's not an exaggeration at all to say that this formations is absolutely capable of deciding a game on turn 1.

 Vaktathi wrote:

It's not an exaggeration at all to say that this formations is absolutely capable of deciding a game on turn 1.

Well then, the formation is aptly named.

Agreeing with a previous poster, if GW provided a similar formation for CSMs the community would be outraged.

The community is outraged. There are three threads directly discussing how OP it is in just one day.

But that's the beauty of the Devs now!

You don't need to waste those grav shots on sub-optimal targets, just aim boltguns at them. Literally, the rule say any unit "targeted".

You were throwing the ASM at infantry anyways right? I say Combat Squad the Devs and let the bolter boys do some work.

Funny thing about this thing too... The formation calls for 2 Dev Squads, and 2 ASM Squads right? You get 20 ASM, but only 10 of the new Devs and the rest are just Tacs!

GW can't even let you have extra Dev weapons. Also, half your Devs will be missing the big boots! And be on different size bases! Or did they at least give you enough of the same size bases?

Apparently we're not raging hard enough to satisfy the offended Eldar players.

This formation is gross. Pure and simple. I don't see how anything approaching a good game can be played with this formation. I played a pod list back in 4th edition. When pods were random. If the pods showed up on turn two in mass, the game was over and I can tell you none of my opponents had fun in those games. Between skyhammer and drop pod assault these won't even be called games. Just you doing stuff to your opponent. So look for an opponent with strong masochistic tendencies or someone who enjoys setting up the game, but not playing.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
This forrhas great potential and is scarily close to fluff.

You could say the same thing about Necrons and Eldar, though.

Possibly, but I am not one that complains about things being overpowered. However, Scatterlasers on Jetbikes still don't feel fluffy to me.

What this formation affords me as a more fluff based player is avoiding some of the extreme combo-hammer and mixed match models cobbled into an army in order to play a competitive game.

Just for the lolz I need to try this with Flesh Tearers as follows:

Skyhammer with full bodies and grav cannons, assault squads with flamers. From BA/Flesh Tearers 3 Fragnaughts in pods, scout squad with ccw's, sang priest and assault squad with flamers, one extra pod.

Turn 1 drop formation's 4 pods and 3 fragnoughts. Fragnoughts should be able to eat interceptor. By combat squading that's quite a many threats turn 1 right in the face of the enemy.

darkcloak wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

take overpowered nonsense formation then laugh at your opponents attempts to deal with it

I would hate to play you IRL

Me?

Lord no you'd love it!

I'm just pointing out the absolute absurdity of the beast, I'd never expect anyone to play that stuff seriously, unless the Chaos Gods were real and challenged you to a game! Then maybe you should run White Scars, just to be sure! (I remembered to emote!)

It's not so much about laughing at your opponent, in that you ought to both be laughing at the insanity playing out on the table. Call it cheese casserole and accept that it's hilarious.

I'm not advocating that this is what 40k should be, but hey? Maybe this is the way to balance? If everyone gets to pull stunts like the SAF then aren't we all enjoying the "added personality"?

Maaaybeee it's an unintentional return to the tongue in cheek satire of the 80s? Yeah, everything is grim and dark, so grim and dark its funny. You can't even play the game competitively because the tables would simply implode under the weight of all the grim dark cheese!

If they'd started this nonsense with 7th instead of finally releasing an Ork dex after most of a decade, having it be gak, and then pumping out overpowered dex after overpowered dex, then sure I'd be laughing right along with you.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:
Hey mates just bought the Skyhammer Annihilation Force to get my Marines started. Thinking of going with either the Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, BT, or the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, as I will most likely run other Drop Pod units with this formation. These are some of the ideas that I had to go with the formation:

* Pedro Kantor w/ Honor Guard in a Drop Pod, 2x Tac Squads in Drop Pods. Just a start but would potentially allow me to have a very nasty Alpha Strike army, as I could go Hvy Bolters for the Devestators to capitalize the IF Chapter Tactic and throw in some Sternguard units for the anti-tank.

* BT: Squads in LRC 's would be a great support to this formation, you throw in the EC and some Crusader Squads to create a nasty list.

* Fire Hawks: Utilize the Assault Marines to there full potential, and can be supported by anything as well as the Devestators. A very flexible army Chapter Tactic.

Not sure how I would capitalize on the Raven Guard but advice is most welcome in that regard.

I'd say pick whatever tactics match the color scheme you most enjoy painting....cause that's all you are going to be doing with it after you realize quickly that no one is going to play against you with it.

darkcloak wrote:
Just wait a few weeks apparently, lol!

And yeah dude, obviously I agree with you, but for the sake of having fun I'd gladly step around to the other side of the table. It's not like I haven't suffered those kinds of defeats in 6th! Maybe we would only move the Space Marines though? I mean, if it's over in turn 1 with no hope, then why don't we just move the Marines back and swap places, then you can put the toys where you want and I'll groan dramatically. We could even play it as a Maelstrom mission for extra lulz!

Then we can play that proppa grim dark 40k that we all love!

I'm with darkcloak on this one. If someone wants to field their Skyhammer Annihilation Force, I'll play 'em once for fun, why not? If it's someone that I'd play with anyhow, we'll just play something else after I lose all my good stuff by T2 in a hilariously short game. Then we can laugh, and play a game with something else.

If someone doesn't want to play anything else, they wouldn't be a player I'd play with anyhow, so no loss for me!

@ Dakkamite

In all honesty I can't see Orks keeping that book for very long. And why would they? GW can pretty much release 8th edition right now and everyone would pile on the cart.

I'm not trying to put you down man, I'm just saying that if GW wants to drown us in cheese we ought to just ignore it, or have a good laugh and call it a day. Like I said there is nothing stopping me from taking the Skyhammer of Doomy Death Doom and not being a jerk with it. I'm sure that the OP is going to be able to find ways to run that formation fairly too, if he so chose.

Just give the game another year and everybody will be summoning daemonic Knight Castellans with SOB Priestess of Pricegouge and a Skaven Warlord riding on top! The hard counter to that? I dunno, a SupaDupaStompa Formation with the new Jelly Donut Ork Clan?

Literally dude, take your pick out of any zany thing you can think of and it's probably already in the works.

darkcloak wrote:
Literally dude, take your pick out of any zany thing you can think of and it's probably already in the works.

Balanced rules and reasonable pricing? Or is that a different type of zany

lustigjh wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
Literally dude, take your pick out of any zany thing you can think of and it's probably already in the works.

Balanced rules and reasonable pricing? Or is that a different type of zany

Whoa now let's not get crazy here.

 quickfuze wrote:

 Ironwolf45 wrote:
Hey mates just bought the Skyhammer Annihilation Force to get my Marines started. Thinking of going with either the Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, BT, or the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, as I will most likely run other Drop Pod units with this formation. These are some of the ideas that I had to go with the formation:

* Pedro Kantor w/ Honor Guard in a Drop Pod, 2x Tac Squads in Drop Pods. Just a start but would potentially allow me to have a very nasty Alpha Strike army, as I could go Hvy Bolters for the Devestators to capitalize the IF Chapter Tactic and throw in some Sternguard units for the anti-tank.

* BT: Squads in LRC 's would be a great support to this formation, you throw in the EC and some Crusader Squads to create a nasty list.

* Fire Hawks: Utilize the Assault Marines to there full potential, and can be supported by anything as well as the Devestators. A very flexible army Chapter Tactic.

Not sure how I would capitalize on the Raven Guard but advice is most welcome in that regard.

I'd say pick whatever tactics match the color scheme you most enjoy painting....cause that's all you are going to be doing with it after you realize quickly that no one is going to play against you with it.

Man, I really hope this is not the general attitude out at Ft Bragg. If so, the 40K scene has really gone downhill. After 10 years there and leaving in 2013, that is the type of attitude I never encountered.

 Sarigar wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
I'd say pick whatever tactics match the color scheme you most enjoy painting....cause that's all you are going to be doing with it after you realize quickly that no one is going to play against you with it.

Man, I really hope this is not the general attitude out at Ft Bragg. If so, the 40K scene has really gone downhill. After 10 years there and leaving in 2013, that is the type of attitude I never encountered.

Well, it's not the general attitude around here. There's a pretty healthy number of people who genuinely enjoy the game, and play it in the spirit of fun and entertainment that I think 40k was authored. We don't really have problems with people going totally overboard taking the craziest list possible; the people who have models to support such things have the decency and restraint to play different lists that are more suitable against less competitive opponents.

End of the day, it's a game, and no different than any other game or sport, you can play it competitively, play it for fun, or play ruin it for your opponent. I'm pretty good at tennis (was competitive when I as young!); if I'm playing against someone who is rusty or isn't that good, I'm not going for an ace every serve. Coz, you know, I like to keep my friends

I'd only have a real problem playing against Skyhammer if it's all you brought every freakin' time. But I'd never field one myself. No matter how useful it'd make my 3rd-4th ed assault marines.

lustigjh wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
Literally dude, take your pick out of any zany thing you can think of and it's probably already in the works.

Balanced rules and reasonable pricing? Or is that a different type of zany

Heresy!

Blam!

Now that I've thought about it all day...

If both players were into it, this formation could be played fairly. Really, if you designed the rest of your list in a non-crunchy way the main thing the opponent would have to worry about is surviving your initial onslaught. Which, honestly, if you have the models, wouldn't be impossible or even that hard. The main thing though is both parties being ready to play this sort of game. You'd also have to agree to leave the ruthless whiz in the cupboard, but it could be played and it might even be fun.



I could see this being fun in that the game gets going right from T1 and could actually be done before T6. Sure it's brutal and you have to be ready for it, but I think the SAF could be fun. It just heavily depends on both players.

Interesting...it's Monday and the SAF is not for sale on the GW US website.......

Probably sold out. They were only limited to like 200 or some stupid number like that. Limited edition "Pay to Win" rules.

 darkcloak wrote:

lustigjh wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
Literally dude, take your pick out of any zany thing you can think of and it's probably already in the works.

Balanced rules and reasonable pricing? Or is that a different type of zany

Heresy!

Blam!

Now that I've thought about it all day...

If both players were into it, this formation could be played fairly. Really, if you designed the rest of your list in a non-crunchy way the main thing the opponent would have to worry about is surviving your initial onslaught. Which, honestly, if you have the models, wouldn't be impossible or even that hard. The main thing though is both parties being ready to play this sort of game. You'd also have to agree to leave the ruthless whiz in the cupboard, but it could be played and it might even be fun.



I could see this being fun in that the game gets going right from T1 and could actually be done before T6. Sure it's brutal and you have to be ready for it, but I think the SAF could be fun. It just heavily depends on both players.

My BA could not survive 39 average casualties on the drop just from the dev squads. This formation makes games an impossibility for many dexes without allies.

General Hobbs wrote:


Interesting...it's Monday and the SAF is not for sale on the GW US website.......

It was there on the US site. I ordered it from that site.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Probably sold out. They were only limited to like 200 or some stupid number like that. Limited edition "Pay to Win" rules.

I for one am going to try out the formation (my housemate is quite happy playing cheese lists at least once, after all).

It won't cost me anything (already have the models, and the rules have been comprehensively spoiled).

I agree, it's pretty powerful. More experienced players than myself are however not convinced the sky is falling just yet (assault marines suck, it's a lot of points, you can counter deploy, coteaz, interceptor, etc.)

zerosignal wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Probably sold out. They were only limited to like 200 or some stupid number like that. Limited edition "Pay to Win" rules.

I for one am going to try out the formation (my housemate is quite happy playing cheese lists at least once, after all).

It won't cost me anything (already have the models, and the rules have been comprehensively spoiled).

I agree, it's pretty powerful. More experienced players than myself are however not convinced the sky is falling just yet (assault marines suck, it's a lot of points, you can counter deploy, coteaz, interceptor, etc.)

Assault Marines aren't the most effective but they are a solid choice, especially depending on which Chapter Tactic you give them. I personally like the Fire Hawks Chapter Tactic as it buffs them pretty well.

It turns out the way people were getting the Skyhammer rule "leaks" was simply reading the JPG off the Games Workshop website. LOL.

So save it and print it and have your own (legal, by any definition) copy of the formation.

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99020101090_SkyhammerAnnihilationForce02.jpg

Proxying in dreadclaws, havocs, and raptors.

There, fixed Codex: CSM.

I'll be honest. I'm considering buying it.

But i wonder if i should save my money for when the dark angels "pay to win" formation gets released

 Ashiraya wrote:
Proxying in dreadclaws, havocs, and raptors.

There, fixed Codex: CSM.

Are you kidding, if Chaos Marines ever got anything half this good there'd be calls by Loyalist players to burn all copies of our codex for daring to even think we're worthy of drinking from the Kool-Aid...

Hell, CSM players still get grief for fielding "Cheesedrakes".

Just look at the whw fomrations. csm got all confused when they saw the light for a split second. Then they looked back at the ultrasmurf equivalent and they went back to shaming themselves.

I would absolutely play a formation like this. And just as soon not play it when my opponent asks me not to. It really is that simple. As for CT, I really can only recommend trying them each out a handful of times and seeing which you like best or synergies well with the rest of your army.

I can't wait for the new da codex. I hope it gets just a bit of Wtf cheese. That way I can bring it to play all the (insert army and insult here) that roflstomped me for the last decade, then shelve it when playing decent human beings.

A friend fo mine pointed out interested thing the formation doesn't say you need to take assault marines and devastator marines from the same codex. Someone could take normal sm codex devastators to get grav cannons and BA assault space marines as those are called the same thing in their codex.

Makumba wrote:
A friend fo mine pointed out interested thing the formation doesn't say you need to take assault marines and devastator marines from the same codex. Someone could take normal sm codex devastators to get grav cannons and BA assault space marines as those are called the same thing in their codex.

I'm preeetty sure that's implied, if not expressly spelled out in the SM codex. I would definitely take issue with someone trying to pull this one.

Makumba wrote:
A friend fo mine pointed out interested thing the formation doesn't say you need to take assault marines and devastator marines from the same codex. Someone could take normal sm codex devastators to get grav cannons and BA assault space marines as those are called the same thing in their codex.

Wrong. The rulebook tells you that all models in a formation come from the same codex/faction.

Further, Blood angels data sheets have a blood angels symbol on the, just so:



And the SAF clearly has a Space Marines logo on top, just so:





Faction symbols: http://i.imgur.com/MY4Mo.jpg

 j31c3n wrote:

Makumba wrote:
A friend fo mine pointed out interested thing the formation doesn't say you need to take assault marines and devastator marines from the same codex. Someone could take normal sm codex devastators to get grav cannons and BA assault space marines as those are called the same thing in their codex.

I'm preeetty sure that's implied, if not expressly spelled out in the SM codex. I would definitely take issue with someone trying to pull this one.

I would have agreed with you -- would have bet my next box of minis on it -- but it's possible to play the devil's advocate.

BRB p.118 - FACTIONS

A unit's Faction applies regardless of how you choose your army, but is especially relevant to Detachments because many state you can only include units of a particular Faction.

Since it says, "many", that implies that some allow you to take units from more than one Faction. If you look at Baal Strike Force, for instance, it says, RESTRICTIONS: All units in this Detachment must have the Blood Angels Faction (or be Fortifications). In Codex Space Marines, it gives page numbers of the units under Restrictions.

P. 121 of BRB states, "RESTRICTIONS - This section of the Detachment lists any additional restrictions that apply to the units you can include as part of this Detachment. If an Army List Entry doesnot adhere to a particular restriction, it cannot be included as part of this particular Detachment. For example, in order to include a Combined Arms Detachment, all of its Army List Entries must have the same Faction.

P.122 BRB, "COMBINED ARMS DETACHMENT - RESTRICTIONS - All units must have the same Faction (or have no Faction)."

On the other hand, this would really f*ck up the game, because, Angel's Fury (and any number of other Formations listed in White Dwarf or in Supplements), for instance, could be run by vanilla space marines, by the same logic. I would have sworn that it read somewhere in BRB that all units in a detachment have to be from the same Faction, but I cannot find such a rule.

 Talys wrote:


On the other hand, this would really f*ck up the game, because, Angel's Fury (and any number of other Formations listed in White Dwarf or in Supplements), for instance, could be run by vanilla space marines, by the same logic. I would have sworn that it read somewhere in BRB that all units in a detachment have to be from the same Faction, but I cannot find such a rule.

Datasheets list the allowed faction on top.

The Angels Fury datasheet clearly has a blood angels logo on top, just so:



There is no argument for allowing it's use with the Space Marine, Space Wolves, or Dark Angels codex.

@kronk - I agree, they list the faction on top.

But there's no rule explicitly stating that a blood angels formation can only take blood angels models. And because SOME formations state restrictions to factioned units, one could make the argument that the OTHER formations are not restricted to factioned units. Especially since the BRB says that only some detachments are faction-restricted.

On the other hand, I think doing this is stupid, and I don't think any reasonable player would do so. It falls into "common sense" for me. I'm just playing devil's advocate, here.

Makumba wrote:
A friend fo mine pointed out interested thing the formation doesn't say you need to take assault marines and devastator marines from the same codex. Someone could take normal sm codex devastators to get grav cannons and BA assault space marines as those are called the same thing in their codex.

Yeah......... he's wrong.

The formation is specifically for the space marines faction

Blood angels are a different faction.

The SM codex also requires all units in a detachment or formation to have the same chapter tactics. So no mixing those either


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man... ive gotta start refreshing more often

What does the cross-faction formation of Admech/Skitarii/Knights have at the top? All three?

 Eldarain wrote:
What does the cross-faction formation of Admech/Skitarii/Knights have at the top? All three?

It specifically states that all units within count as "cult mechanicus" units IIRC.

You could not run the Skyahmmer Assault Formation with Blood Angel Rules as it is specifically a Codex Space Marine Adeptus Astartes Formation. However you could take a Blood Angel CAD/Formation and then run this Formation with it, just pick a Chapter Tactic that best fits with the BA Fluff.

 jokerkd wrote:

Makumba wrote:
A friend fo mine pointed out interested thing the formation doesn't say you need to take assault marines and devastator marines from the same codex. Someone could take normal sm codex devastators to get grav cannons and BA assault space marines as those are called the same thing in their codex.

Yeah......... he's wrong.

The formation is specifically for the space marines faction

Blood angels are a different faction.

The SM codex also requires all units in a detachment or formation to have the same chapter tactics. So no mixing those either

But in the restiction it doesn't say you have to pick models from codex. The rules only say space marine devastators, drop pods and assault marines. And all those 3 are in the BA book and have the same name. Now if they were called blood angels space marine devastators etc, then yes, it would stop people from taking them in the formation.
And as far as the faction goes, in the rule book they mention IoM as faction. Someone could just say that that is his faction and not space marines or blood angels. And IoM includes both, so there would be no exclusivity clasule broken.

The Skyfalling formation is tough.

Makumba wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

Makumba wrote:
A friend fo mine pointed out interested thing the formation doesn't say you need to take assault marines and devastator marines from the same codex. Someone could take normal sm codex devastators to get grav cannons and BA assault space marines as those are called the same thing in their codex.

Yeah......... he's wrong.

The formation is specifically for the space marines faction

Blood angels are a different faction.

The SM codex also requires all units in a detachment or formation to have the same chapter tactics. So no mixing those either

But in the restiction it doesn't say you have to pick models from codex. The rules only say space marine devastators, drop pods and assault marines. And all those 3 are in the BA book and have the same name. Now if they were called blood angels space marine devastators etc, then yes, it would stop people from taking them in the formation.
And as far as the faction goes, in the rule book they mention IoM as faction. Someone could just say that that is his faction and not space marines or blood angels. And IoM includes both, so there would be no exclusivity clasule broken.

pretty sure the brb doesn't say IOM is a faction. i believe it says that all the listed factions count as IOM for the allies matrix.

not sure about the blood angels book, but the C;SM has an explanation of a datasheet before the unit entries. the first point states that all units with this symbol have the SM faction


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just checked C;BA and it says the same thing

This thread is amazing.. o0

Obviously this is a very strong formation, and obviously it should NOT be played in a casual game. Just like you shouldn't play multiple canoptek harvests, spam wraithknights or IKs, drown your enemy in scatterbikes, etc. etc.
Should you however belong to the group of gamers that actually likes playing hypercompetitive lists, this formation is just another thing amongst many. Just assume you field this formation and end up playing against daemons. Their 2++/3++ reroll ones army laughs at your grav shots and trashes your army after the drop. Assume you play against canoptek harvest, your 40 grav shots will kill an average of 2.5 wraiths before they proceed to wipe your army.

If you think this formation is overpowered, you like casual games, and that is fine! I am also sure OP fixes beforehand which level of competitiveness his opponent prefers. Now stop whining and posting in this thread, because it is clearly not about you and your games -.-

All of this said, LE rules are wrong.

Make them available in a book or $5 download, or feth off.

 kronk wrote:
All of this said, LE rules are wrong.

Make them available in a book or $5 download, or feth off.

Oh God Kronk, please don't give them encouragement on the $5 download idea!

In all honesty though, I see that as the direction they're going. Expect the best and most powerful formations to be sold online for $5- $10 for the "page" of rules (ie rules represent five short lines of text, the rest of the page is a bad-ass picture of all of the miniatures assembled. Oh yeah!)

 Accolade wrote:

 kronk wrote:
All of this said, LE rules are wrong.

Make them available in a book or $5 download, or feth off.

Oh God Kronk, please don't give them encouragement on the $5 download idea!

They already have that idea. Remember all of the Countdown to Christmas bundles? Some were rules/units, like Bel'Acorn, Cypher, etc.

Ushtarador wrote:
This thread is amazing.. o0

Obviously this is a very strong formation, and obviously it should NOT be played in a casual game. Just like you shouldn't play multiple canoptek harvests, spam wraithknights or IKs, drown your enemy in scatterbikes, etc. etc.
Should you however belong to the group of gamers that actually likes playing hypercompetitive lists, this formation is just another thing amongst many. Just assume you field this formation and end up playing against daemons. Their 2++/3++ reroll ones army laughs at your grav shots and trashes your army after the drop. Assume you play against canoptek harvest, your 40 grav shots will kill an average of 2.5 wraiths before they proceed to wipe your army.

If you think this formation is overpowered, you like casual games, and that is fine! I am also sure OP fixes beforehand which level of competitiveness his opponent prefers. Now stop whining and posting in this thread, because it is clearly not about you and your games -.-

Yes, it is. You think casual players never play pick up games against people with competitive/semi-competitive lists? Must we now play competitive games in order to have an opinion about the power level of formations?

Would this formations count as one of the formations that an be used for a Gladius Strike Force?

 kronk wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

 kronk wrote:
All of this said, LE rules are wrong.

Make them available in a book or $5 download, or feth off.

Oh God Kronk, please don't give them encouragement on the $5 download idea!

They already have that idea. Remember all of the Countdown to Christmas bundles? Some were rules/units, like Bel'Acorn, Cypher, etc.

Ohh yeah, I forgot about those. Well, some of those were for single models, perhaps this new series will be for big units they sell (particularly ones that perform worse, ie Assault Marines)?

Also, I've never heard of that particular demon but he sounds terrifying

It's Bel'Akor's brother. He got dropped on his head.

 koooaei wrote:
The Skyfalling formation is tough.

This formation is obviously a joke. ... right? .... No?

GW busts their asses for 2 or 3 years to remove assault from reserves and now, bang, reintroduces it with a ton of rules breaking abilities. I can't imagine this formation would be played in any other situation than just have fun with a friend that would play the role of punching bag while this formation is being used. (Fun as in laugh at the absurdity of this formation)

Anyways, I can definitivelly say that I won't use this formaiton with my friends and I would be very surprised if this ended up being accepted in tournaments.
At least not until all codexes are updated with over the top rules like the Eldars, Necrons and now Space marines.

I will treat the free transport formation, and this formation, like I treaded the introduction of flyers. As soon as an opponent had access to them, I permited myself to use them agains that particular player. I will do the same with OP formations I guess.

My 2 cents.

 -Shrike- wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:
This thread is amazing.. o0

Obviously this is a very strong formation, and obviously it should NOT be played in a casual game. Just like you shouldn't play multiple canoptek harvests, spam wraithknights or IKs, drown your enemy in scatterbikes, etc. etc.
Should you however belong to the group of gamers that actually likes playing hypercompetitive lists, this formation is just another thing amongst many. Just assume you field this formation and end up playing against daemons. Their 2++/3++ reroll ones army laughs at your grav shots and trashes your army after the drop. Assume you play against canoptek harvest, your 40 grav shots will kill an average of 2.5 wraiths before they proceed to wipe your army.

If you think this formation is overpowered, you like casual games, and that is fine! I am also sure OP fixes beforehand which level of competitiveness his opponent prefers. Now stop whining and posting in this thread, because it is clearly not about you and your games -.-

Yes, it is. You think casual players never play pick up games against people with competitive/semi-competitive lists? Must we now play competitive games in order to have an opinion about the power level of formations?

If you play games with formations like this one, you are clearly on the competitive side of the hobby - at least that's the only way I can justify the whining of people saying they would never play against it. Yes the powerlevel of this formation is too high for casual games, but I can list you at least 10 armies off the top of my head that would make for an even worse experience.
Of course there's an important distinction between casual games and casual players but if you pick up a game versus a competitive tournament player, you should not be surprise if your casual ork list gets stomped turn 2. At least in my area we always agree on the competitiveness of our games before we play, it makes sure both players have an enjoyable game.

Anyways, I can definitivelly say that I won't use this formaiton with my friends and I would be very surprised if this ended up being accepted in tournaments.

There's so many things that can be considered broken in tournaments, this one does not particularly stick out.

If you play games with formations like this one, you are clearly on the competitive side of the hobby - at least that's the only way I can justify the whining of people saying they would never play against it. Yes the powerlevel of this formation is too high for casual games, but I can list you at least 10 armies off the top of my head that would make for an even worse experience.
Of course there's an important distinction between casual games and casual players but if you pick up a game versus a competitive tournament player, you should not be surprise if your casual ork list gets stomped turn 2. At least in my area we always agree on the competitiveness of our games before we play, it makes sure both players have an enjoyable game.

I think your using the wrong names for lists here. Casual lists are list played outside of tournaments, non casual ones are those for tournaments. But your mixing them up with good and bad lists. Why do you think that someone who doesn't play tournaments will not buy good units, and go and buy the bad ones?

Well, for me a casual list is a list where I try to field a fluffy army, where I throw together some of the units I like. I will play some tactical termies, my sanguinary guard, maybe Cpt. Tycho.. things like that. It's not a bad list per se, and it will make for good games, but something like a full grav skyhammer force will probably wipe it off the table. Competitive lists are the ones tailored to win, spamming some unit type and allying in specific units for maximum effect. It's a completely different approach to warhammer.
I like both types of games once in a while. However, everyone complaining how OP this formation is clearly belongs to the former group. This formation is not for them, so they should let people who like fielding competitive armies discuss it in peace.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Proxying in dreadclaws, havocs, and raptors.

There, fixed Codex: CSM.

Are you kidding, if Chaos Marines ever got anything half this good there'd be calls by Loyalist players to burn all copies of our codex for daring to even think we're worthy of drinking from the Kool-Aid...

Hell, CSM players still get grief for fielding "Cheesedrakes".

By whom? I haven't seen anything but pity for CSM by other players for the past year and I haven't heard anyone whine about the drake for two.

Ushtarador wrote:
Well, for me a casual list is a list where I try to field a fluffy army, where I throw together some of the units I like. I will play some tactical termies, my sanguinary guard, maybe Cpt. Tycho.. things like that. It's not a bad list per se, and it will make for good games, but something like a full grav skyhammer force will probably wipe it off the table. Competitive lists are the ones tailored to win, spamming some unit type and allying in specific units for maximum effect. It's a completely different approach to warhammer.
I like both types of games once in a while. However, everyone complaining how OP this formation is clearly belongs to the former group. This formation is not for them, so they should let people who like fielding competitive armies discuss it in peace.

Fluffy and weak are no longer mutually inclusive terms, and that is becoming more and more apparent as the edition goes on.

Many of the new formations that are "fluffy" are also very powerful and I'd even say Skyhammer falls into that category of being fluffy and powerful. You might not want to play it in a "casual" game with a weak army that is also fluffy and expect a good game since you don't even really need to spam the grav, it's still fairly brutal. But I don't think it's fair to say that a Skyhammer formation isn't fluffy just because it's very strong.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:
Well, for me a casual list is a list where I try to field a fluffy army, where I throw together some of the units I like. I will play some tactical termies, my sanguinary guard, maybe Cpt. Tycho.. things like that. It's not a bad list per se, and it will make for good games, but something like a full grav skyhammer force will probably wipe it off the table. Competitive lists are the ones tailored to win, spamming some unit type and allying in specific units for maximum effect. It's a completely different approach to warhammer.
I like both types of games once in a while. However, everyone complaining how OP this formation is clearly belongs to the former group. This formation is not for them, so they should let people who like fielding competitive armies discuss it in peace.

Fluffy and weak are no longer mutually inclusive terms, and that is becoming more and more apparent as the edition goes on.

Many of the new formations that are "fluffy" are also very powerful and I'd even say Skyhammer falls into that category of being fluffy and powerful. You might not want to play it in a "casual" game with a weak army that is also fluffy and expect a good game since you don't even really need to spam the grav, it's still fairly brutal. But I don't think it's fair to say that a Skyhammer formation isn't fluffy just because it's very strong.

Exactly... The new Gladius formation for Vanillas for example is incredibly fluffy as it calls on players to field an actual Codex Battle Co. Now if you were to take it in it's true 'fluffy' form, you'd end up having most/all squads at 10 strong, as typically an under-strength squad will have received replacements from one of the relevant Reserve Companies, prior to setting off on their newest mission/campaign.
That's not to say that perhaps 2-3 out of the company's 10 squads could end up being under strength, but typically, that's only more likely to happen if the Battle Company in question is re-deployed from one warzone to the next immediately, without the opportunity to return to the Chapter's homeworld/fleet HQ.

However, there's nothing to stop this super fluffy formation from being cheesed out to the max, by taking only the absolute minimum squads & spamming all the best upgrades, shoving it all in free Drop Pods, and wrecking face in non-tournament games.


It all comes down to why is one's opponent fielding these new, powerful formations. If they're doing it without heavily abusing the crap out of them, then fine. It'll be a tough challenge still, especially for certain armies to adapt, but (hopefully) you can still have a decent game.
If on the other hand an opponent is just using something like Skyhammer in casual games to steamroll their opponents within 1 turn, because... "Winning", then them. It's toy soliders, if you really need to jack your ego that badly, there's a bathroom for that sort of thing.

 kronk wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

 kronk wrote:
All of this said, LE rules are wrong.

Make them available in a book or $5 download, or feth off.

Oh God Kronk, please don't give them encouragement on the $5 download idea!

They already have that idea. Remember all of the Countdown to Christmas bundles? Some were rules/units, like Bel'Acorn, Cypher, etc.

Dark Angels Librarius Conclave...

Which it looks like they might not even get in their new book; having lost it to the Codex Greedy Marines...