Right you inglorious lot, I am having a slight issue with a friend of mine.
I play IG and he play's Space Marines. Now even though my codex is the weaker we do get some close battles.

The problem is that he is trying to limit me on the number of tanks I can bring. He keeps telling me that I can bring no more than 2 or 3 or 4 as he "hates fighting tanks" whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

For this Monday's game I made a gentlemans agreement that I would not bring more than three tanks if he did not bring more than three psyker levels (I hate fighting psykers).
He agreed, then promptly said he would be bringing that new Libraius Conclave formation with 5 level 2 Librarians. And told me it was tough.

So, here are the options:

>Go along with having my already bottom tier army neutered even further.
>He only specified Heavy Support Tanks, so bring a command tank and two escorts, a Thunderer and a Destroyer.
>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.
>Enter the Shadowsword.

 master of ordinance wrote:

>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.

This.

 master of ordinance wrote:
he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

this cannot be for real!

No more than three tanks?

Bring three baneblade variants.

 jokerkd wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

this cannot be for real!

Sadly it was.

We both use home brews every now and again, just to add some diversity and some fluffiness. Unfortunately in recent months his have been taking a gradual curve towards this style. In this case the first thing I knew was when he was deployed and damn near raped half my army. In the end it did not matter too much as I succeeded in working around this and finishing off the rest of his force, sacrificing units to delay the monster for a turn at a time and in the end the only units left on the board where my three tank command squadron, the surviving Exterminator and this primarch level monster.
Apparently this was a play test to see how well he performed and if he needed a points boost at the end of it.

I think the problem is that he does not have an external balancing force. Where I stick my stuff on Dakka and listen to the feedback he has only himself to moderate the balance.

I know what I would say to someone who wanted to play home brewed made up Uber powerful character from with an already strong book and then asked me to tone down legit options from my lower tier codex. Bad words.

I had something similar with an Eldar player who spammed WS against my 6th ed DA. He didn't like my rwcs/rwbk and asked me to only bring one unit of either, not even one of each. I asked him to only bring one WS. "But that's my favorite unit. I build my list around it". So I bought more rwbk.

A gentleman's agreement only works if both sides act like gentlemen

 welshhoppo wrote:
No more than three tanks?

Bring three baneblade variants.

Sadly my only Super Heavy at the moment is my Shadowsword/Banehammer/etc.But yes, if these homebrews are there this is coming out.

Is he your little teen brother or something?

'cause if he's a grown up it's too much even for a power fantasy type player.

Anyhow, surprise Armoured Battlegroup for S&G

Tell him he cannot use his home brewed characters, first off.

Then tell him that you will bring a tank for every point of mastery level he has. Ten mastery levels combined? well, that's three squadrons of leman Russ!

Oh, and find a new friend to play with, if possible. This guy sounds like a tool.

Grimdark wrote:Is he your little teen brother or something?

'cause if he's a grown up it's too much even for a power fantasy type player.

Anyhow, surprise Armoured Battlegroup for S&G

Sadly not. He actually 4 years my senior.

Crazyterran wrote:Tell him he cannot use his home brewed characters, first off.

Then tell him that you will bring a tank for every point of mastery level he has. Ten mastery levels combined? well, that's three squadrons of leman Russ!

Oh, and find a new friend to play with, if possible. This guy sounds like a tool.

I dont really want to start an arguement, and it would be hypocritical as I do enjoy using my own two (A tank commander and a Commissar themed one)

However, the tank per mastery level thing is something I was already intending to do, the only problem being that I have run out of tanks... Though thanks to Warlords Games I can get more fast

He is actually a really good friend. it's only on the tabletop that things like this start happening.

 pwntallica wrote:
A gentleman's agreement only works if both sides act like gentlemen

This. It sounds like he wants all of his shiny toys, but not to deal with yours. Especially after agreeing to tone down librarians, and then bringing the conclave. I’d suggest a temporary ban on homebrew. Bring it back to the basic game. If he wants you to take less of something you are entitled to (tanks) he should respond in kind (librarians). Once you hammer out a way for both of you to enjoy the game, you can start tweaking it.

And if he wants to field his home-brewed demigod, make sure you are OK with the points, not just him. Ask for a breakdown of how he got to that point cost, and see if you agree with his reasoning. If he can’t give a decent accounting on how he got the points without a “I’m stealing a cookie” look on his face, go back and adjust things.

Two options (well, three, but "don't play him" doesn't sound like an option you'd prefer).

1) Tell him it's straight codex, no outside options for both of you. The codexes are 'balanced' (less so with the older AM vs. new SM), so they're geared towards a roughly even fight. (Why's everyone laughing at that?)

2) Next time you two come to table, and have lists prepped, tell him you'll be playing his list and him yours - but using his rules on tanks and psykers and home brew characters. Show him how 'fun' such restrictions are when on the receiving end.

Your friend seems to be a scrub. Good luck with him.

+1 to the "gentlemen agreement" issue explained earlier, you may demand some concessions from your opponent (i.e. "don't bring more than 3 whatever") if you're ready to make some concessions yourself. If he's upset by an IG player fielding many tanks, I'd suggest him to go and fetch some melta guns. Seriously, what does he expect? An IG opponent not relying heavily on tanks?

They come in squadrons?!?
Branch out into fortifications. See what you can find in the Stronghold Assault book. It was mostly written with IG in mind.

It's entirely possible to like someone without liking to play them. If you enjoy playing him, make it clear that the tanks=mastery levels rule will be in full effect, and if he says 'tough,' then so will you.

If you DON'T enjoy playing 40k with him, then just stop. I've had to tell friends before that we could still hang out, I just didnt want to play 40k with them, and it wasnt a big deal.

Try and help balance his characters. Homebrewed characters sound fun, but not when they're horribly powerful like that. I don't think the character you mentioned it anywhere near the power of Calgar or Logan Grimnar.

Imperial Guard have a heavy focus on tanks compared to other codexes. It's not entirely fair to remove what is one of the most important units in the codex. Continue to use them as is appropriate.

If the Space Marine player doesn't have a super heavy or similar, I would advise against bringing your own super heavy. They simply aren't balanced enough for normal games. If you resolve the problems with his OP characters then you should be fine.

Are these characters for roleplaying, for personalizing his army with a character he made himself, or are they intended to be overpowered and win?

If you guys are really good friends, you should be able to work out a way you can both enjoy playing games with one another. There do appear to be some hurdles, however.

First off, you both need to get over what you DON'T like about each other's army. You hate facing Psykers, but space marines can be pretty great in the psychic phase. He hates tanks, but you play IG. Sure, he could quit playing psyker units, but what are you supposed to do...pick an entire new army? People get into IG because they like tanks! The good news is you both have ways to counter the things you don't like. You hate psykers? Ally in a culexus assassin (almost mandatory these days). He's having tank issues? Space Marines have a lot of anti tank options...

Second, realize that non-tournament 40k is a game you play WITH your opponent rather than against. If you're going to stand across a table with someone for 2 to 4 hours, it behooves you both to try to kill one another in the nicest, most supportive way possible. Did he just down your Vendetta with a lucky snap-firing lascannon shot? Do your best to let him enjoy the moment! Be happy for him...it is a dice game, after all, and hopefully you'll get your moment in the sun as well.

Finally, unless you can somehow agree upon their power level / points cost without either side feeling slighted, I'd recommend getting rid of your home-brew characters. Not because I'm against home-brew, per say, but only because your particular story seems like it's heading towards an arms race that's going to end in bad feelings.

Good luck!

If he deploys a home-brewed nonsense character with+7 to every stat I want you to literally take a small hammer out of your pocket and smash his model flat. What a total jerk. Homebrew can be fun sometimes but that's just flat absurd.

simple solution....bring one tank....a home-brewed one, that seems to be allowed. Make it absolutely OP and ridiculous.

Make a home-brew Psyker for your guard. But instead of being a Psyker, he's a Null.

Meaning, he absorbs or nullify's any Psyker Warp-related powers occurring within his aura's area of influence.

Oh, his AOI is 36". Because why not.

This means all Psyker powers can only go off on 6+, and the roll to deny is done at a 3+.

Once during the game he can focus his power to completely nullify a character (wipe out both Psyker abilities and Force weapons.)

Forging the Narrative!

This tank is actually an Inqusitorial Cyclonic torpedo. Its my turn. I'm detonating it. Table flip.

Yeah I'd just stop playing him. If people get arsy over rules, get angry over dice rolls, complain about my list because they have had to remove a single figure when I've taken off twenty, or call my codex op whilst running every cheese tactic theirs has to offer, I never play them again. I've been known to shake hands and pack up on turn one. There are loads of other gamers and clubs around. If he asks why you've stopped arranging games with him, just be honest and tell him what's been bothering you.

 master of ordinance wrote:
...whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

Well, first of all, that character sounds as good as, if not better than, Lorgar (Word Bearers Primarch), and he costs 450 points with his psychic powers boosted, and he's still only ML3. I get that people want to create their own unique characters and such to personalize their armies, but they need to do so rationally, using preexisting rules as a template to gauge accurate points costs.

Simply put, if he gets to use units/models that he has made up on his own, then he does not get to enforce limitations on what you can use from an actual codex.

I've been in a similar situation with a friend who didn't like me using Leman Russes. You know what happened though? He bucked up and learn to deal with it. No offence but your friend sounds like a cheat, expecting a Guard player to severely handicap his army like that is ridiculous. Take as many tanks as you want and if he doesn't like it tell him to find another person to play with.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Right you inglorious lot, I am having a slight issue with a friend of mine.
I play IG and he play's Space Marines. Now even though my codex is the weaker we do get some close battles.

The problem is that he is trying to limit me on the number of tanks I can bring. He keeps telling me that I can bring no more than 2 or 3 or 4 as he "hates fighting tanks" whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

For this Monday's game I made a gentlemans agreement that I would not bring more than three tanks if he did not bring more than three psyker levels (I hate fighting psykers).
He agreed, then promptly said he would be bringing that new Libraius Conclave formation with 5 level 2 Librarians. And told me it was tough.

So, here are the options:

>Go along with having my already bottom tier army neutered even further.
>He only specified Heavy Support Tanks, so bring a command tank and two escorts, a Thunderer and a Destroyer.
>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.
>Enter the Shadowsword.

I...this...go with option 3.

I've been a similar situation before, we had a guy in my FLGS who would come in and only play "normal 1850 games" against people. What that meant was that if you were playing him, you could only use models from your army's codex with no allies of any kind (meaning as a Tyranid player, I could only use units from Codex: Tyranids, nothing from Levithan, nothing from Forge World). Meanwhile, he would whine and back out of a game if anyone complained about his "super hero", a Space Marine model with T6, 6 wounds, 2+/3++, Mastery Level 4 on a bike. Way we dealt with him? I played his "1850 normal game" with 3 CA detachments with a total of 6 Flyrants and beat him into the ground with it.

Of course, this guy was not a friend of mine but if someone's going to whine like that, bring the pain on them. Beat them down with their own rules. For his formation bring a Clixsus Assassin and watch him bring those Librarians down.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Right you inglorious lot, I am having a slight issue with a friend of mine.
I play IG and he play's Space Marines. Now even though my codex is the weaker we do get some close battles.

The problem is that he is trying to limit me on the number of tanks I can bring. He keeps telling me that I can bring no more than 2 or 3 or 4 as he "hates fighting tanks" whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

For this Monday's game I made a gentlemans agreement that I would not bring more than three tanks if he did not bring more than three psyker levels (I hate fighting psykers).
He agreed, then promptly said he would be bringing that new Libraius Conclave formation with 5 level 2 Librarians. And told me it was tough.

So, here are the options:

>Go along with having my already bottom tier army neutered even further.
>He only specified Heavy Support Tanks, so bring a command tank and two escorts, a Thunderer and a Destroyer.
>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.
>Enter the Shadowsword.

So, he gets to make up rules (units he is allowed to take, or make up on the spot), and wants you constrained from playing up to the potential of the written rules.

Find a new friend. Heck, find a person who actually fits the definition of "friend".

Nevelon wrote:

 pwntallica wrote:
A gentleman's agreement only works if both sides act like gentlemen

This. It sounds like he wants all of his shiny toys, but not to deal with yours. Especially after agreeing to tone down librarians, and then bringing the conclave. I’d suggest a temporary ban on homebrew. Bring it back to the basic game. If he wants you to take less of something you are entitled to (tanks) he should respond in kind (librarians). Once you hammer out a way for both of you to enjoy the game, you can start tweaking it.

And if he wants to field his home-brewed demigod, make sure you are OK with the points, not just him. Ask for a breakdown of how he got to that point cost, and see if you agree with his reasoning. If he can’t give a decent accounting on how he got the points without a “I’m stealing a cookie” look on his face, go back and adjust things.

Thanks, this sounds like a really good idea. Going back to basics is something I have been wanting to do for a while now.

Carlson793 wrote:Two options (well, three, but "don't play him" doesn't sound like an option you'd prefer).

1) Tell him it's straight codex, no outside options for both of you. The codexes are 'balanced' (less so with the older AM vs. new SM), so they're geared towards a roughly even fight. (Why's everyone laughing at that?)

2) Next time you two come to table, and have lists prepped, tell him you'll be playing his list and him yours - but using his rules on tanks and psykers and home brew characters. Show him how 'fun' such restrictions are when on the receiving end.

+1 again for pure Codex. Given that I only field two homebrews and they are only minor parts of my army I am more than happy with this, and it should give us time to balance things out.

I also like the idea of swapping armies, it would be nice to be doing the hammering for once, rather than getting hammered

Colehkxix wrote:Try and help balance his characters. Homebrewed characters sound fun, but not when they're horribly powerful like that. I don't think the character you mentioned it anywhere near the power of Calgar or Logan Grimnar.

Imperial Guard have a heavy focus on tanks compared to other codexes. It's not entirely fair to remove what is one of the most important units in the codex. Continue to use them as is appropriate.

If the Space Marine player doesn't have a super heavy or similar, I would advise against bringing your own super heavy. They simply aren't balanced enough for normal games. If you resolve the problems with his OP characters then you should be fine.

Are these characters for roleplaying, for personalizing his army with a character he made himself, or are they intended to be overpowered and win?

Didnt think of helping him, thanks for that one. I have been hinting that he should get a Dakka account and post them here... Maybe it is time to suggest it fully?

Aye, thanks for the confidence boost, I will continue to do so

I wont bring a SH vehicle.... Provided no demigod characters are fielded. That is a personal promise I have made to myself.

I am honestly not sure, the back story of the above mentioned one was literally "He lives in space and is the lord of it". Fluff does seem minimal but I do want to restrain myself from crying WAAC at everything.

Voidwraith wrote:If you guys are really good friends, you should be able to work out a way you can both enjoy playing games with one another. There do appear to be some hurdles, however.

First off, you both need to get over what you DON'T like about each other's army. You hate facing Psykers, but space marines can be pretty great in the psychic phase. He hates tanks, but you play IG. Sure, he could quit playing psyker units, but what are you supposed to do...pick an entire new army? People get into IG because they like tanks! The good news is you both have ways to counter the things you don't like. You hate psykers? Ally in a culexus assassin (almost mandatory these days). He's having tank issues? Space Marines have a lot of anti tank options...

Second, realize that non-tournament 40k is a game you play WITH your opponent rather than against. If you're going to stand across a table with someone for 2 to 4 hours, it behooves you both to try to kill one another in the nicest, most supportive way possible. Did he just down your Vendetta with a lucky snap-firing lascannon shot? Do your best to let him enjoy the moment! Be happy for him...it is a dice game, after all, and hopefully you'll get your moment in the sun as well.

Finally, unless you can somehow agree upon their power level / points cost without either side feeling slighted, I'd recommend getting rid of your home-brew characters. Not because I'm against home-brew, per say, but only because your particular story seems like it's heading towards an arms race that's going to end in bad feelings.

Good luck!

Thanks, ill need it

I dont actually have any problems with him fielding psykers though when there are 20+ levels on the table in a 2000 point army it does get frustrating. I am quite happy to accept that his army does psykers and other stuff that my army does not.
In all honesty I am against these restrictions and would gladly play without him, the afore mentioned Gentlemans agreement was just an attempt to balance things out a bit, and make it fair for me as well as him.
The fact is I need my tanks, they are one of the few viable units in my current codex and limiting them is like presenting me with an 'I Lose' button and expecting me to smile and press it.

The Homebrews armsrace.... I cant say it has not been tempting, but that is a path that I want to avoid. Nothing good can come of it. Getting rid of them does seem the most viable option right now.

bullyboy wrote:simple solution....bring one tank....a home-brewed one, that seems to be allowed. Make it absolutely OP and ridiculous.

Mr.Omega wrote:This tank is actually an Inqusitorial Cyclonic torpedo. Its my turn. I'm detonating it. Table flip.

please do not tempt me

Tannhauser42 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
...whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

Well, first of all, that character sounds as good as, if not better than, Lorgar (Word Bearers Primarch), and he costs 450 points with his psychic powers boosted, and he's still only ML3. I get that people want to create their own unique characters and such to personalize their armies, but they need to do so rationally, using preexisting rules as a template to gauge accurate points costs.

Simply put, if he gets to use units/models that he has made up on his own, then he does not get to enforce limitations on what you can use from an actual codex.

Aye, as soon as I saw the stats I knew I was facing a primarch level character. Sadly by then it was too late to do anything about it.

Signet-Powers wrote: I've been in a similar situation with a friend who didn't like me using Leman Russes. You know what happened though? He bucked up and learn to deal with it. No offence but your friend sounds like a cheat, expecting a Guard player to severely handicap his army like that is ridiculous. Take as many tanks as you want and if he doesn't like it tell him to find another person to play with.

Thank you, this is exactly how I feel. In all honesty if he wants me to change my list on the night I know of two others whom are going and are good opponents to face. And I will happily face down Wolves and GK instead.

Its never too late to say no to beard.

Stop playing him if he's going to be a douchebag about it. Simple as that. Otherwise, take whatever you want. Additionally, look at his army list, including any "homebrewed" characters before starting the match. If it seems overpowered compared to other in game characters at that point level, demand he up the points or not use the homebrew.

Wonder if he will agree to proxy say a warlord titan ;-)

Furyou Miko wrote:Its never too late to say no to beard.

It is when it is turn two :/

troa wrote:Stop playing him if he's going to be a douchebag about it. Simple as that. Otherwise, take whatever you want. Additionally, look at his army list, including any "homebrewed" characters before starting the match. If it seems overpowered compared to other in game characters at that point level, demand he up the points or not use the homebrew.

That is pretty much what I am going to start doing if this keeps up.

jhe90 wrote:Wonder if he will agree to proxy say a warlord titan ;-)

..... I have my little brother and a lot of tinfoil

Each player has different expectations of what they want from the game.

I get a little suspicious when people start messing with rules right from the beginning.
I push for "straight up" games at first where possible.
Any changes need to be agreed to and written down before hand.

It was good advice of establishing a cost system if you are both set on having "special" characters.
I have a friend who makes it a rule for himself to give a system and reasoning for a change and getting buy-in before fielding it.
I tend to harass him on what is his motivation for the change, it leads to interesting hemming and hawing but he is honest about it.
Balance in points is important even if it is GW...

I have a very competitive (other) friend where a favorite statement of his is "Do not tell me what I can or can not play with.".
He has a right.
I have to remind him however his unhappiness with me fielding vehicles (he is DE) runs very close to telling me what I could or could not play and hypocrisy is not cool.
I have found, you do not hold back you must field your best to the max with him: he would not do any less.

I find the easiest way to achieve "balance" is to design a scenario and get agreement to participate.
There are so many ways to add variation to the game (random draw objectives of table "events") and keeps both players from optimizing for a set scenario.
This has been the justification for many Maelstrom missions to prevent the sit back and blast each other confrontations.

Your friend sounds like he really wants to gain advantage to the point of infringing on your fun... not the best trait of a good friend: you may have to make fun of him a few times to keep him honest. I could only see that he could feel some limitations would be needed if his army is much smaller than yours and he does not have much to choose from at this time.

I think it was mentioned the "scrub", this web site is quite interesting for defining the true "playing to win" and how the "scrub" mindset prevents proper problem solving:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

My unofficial poll: what condition are his models?
Barely assembled,
Primed,
Painted a couple colours,
Fully painted?

Just curious, I find most people who like to game in general make at an attempt to get some painting done because they like the look of the game the spectacle of it.
Those who like to play to win (possibly at "all costs"?) as their main motivation from my personal experience may not even have the models fully assembled because they mean little more than chess pieces.

Good luck!

 master of ordinance wrote:
Right you inglorious lot, I am having a slight issue with a friend of mine.
I play IG and he play's Space Marines. Now even though my codex is the weaker we do get some close battles.

The problem is that he is trying to limit me on the number of tanks I can bring. He keeps telling me that I can bring no more than 2 or 3 or 4 as he "hates fighting tanks" whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

For this Monday's game I made a gentlemans agreement that I would not bring more than three tanks if he did not bring more than three psyker levels (I hate fighting psykers).
He agreed, then promptly said he would be bringing that new Libraius Conclave formation with 5 level 2 Librarians. And told me it was tough.

So, here are the options:

>Go along with having my already bottom tier army neutered even further.
>He only specified Heavy Support Tanks, so bring a command tank and two escorts, a Thunderer and a Destroyer.
>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.
>Enter the Shadowsword.

Your opponent doesn't sound particularly fun to play against.

Likewise, I try never to field less than a dozen vehicles in an IG army if I can help it, I like to typically run at least 15 in an 1850/2000pt army.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Right you inglorious lot, I am having a slight issue with a friend of mine.
I play IG and he play's Space Marines. Now even though my codex is the weaker we do get some close battles.

The problem is that he is trying to limit me on the number of tanks I can bring. He keeps telling me that I can bring no more than 2 or 3 or 4 as he "hates fighting tanks" whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

For this Monday's game I made a gentlemans agreement that I would not bring more than three tanks if he did not bring more than three psyker levels (I hate fighting psykers).
He agreed, then promptly said he would be bringing that new Libraius Conclave formation with 5 level 2 Librarians. And told me it was tough.

So, here are the options:

>Go along with having my already bottom tier army neutered even further.
>He only specified Heavy Support Tanks, so bring a command tank and two escorts, a Thunderer and a Destroyer.
>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.
>Enter the Shadowsword.

Your opponent doesn't sound particularly fun to play against.

Likewise, I try never to field less than a dozen vehicles in an IG army if I can help it, I like to typically run at least 15 in an 1850/2000pt army.

^ This. I absolutely LOVE mechanized armies. They are awesome to look at and a blast to play too.

 Talizvar wrote:
Each player has different expectations of what they want from the game.

I get a little suspicious when people start messing with rules right from the beginning.
I push for "straight up" games at first where possible.
Any changes need to be agreed to and written down before hand.

It was good advice of establishing a cost system if you are both set on having "special" characters.
I have a friend who makes it a rule for himself to give a system and reasoning for a change and getting buy-in before fielding it.
I tend to harass him on what is his motivation for the change, it leads to interesting hemming and hawing but he is honest about it.
Balance in points is important even if it is GW...

I have a very competitive (other) friend where a favorite statement of his is "Do not tell me what I can or can not play with.".
He has a right.
I have to remind him however his unhappiness with me fielding vehicles (he is DE) runs very close to telling me what I could or could not play and hypocrisy is not cool.
I have found, you do not hold back you must field your best to the max with him: he would not do any less.

I find the easiest way to achieve "balance" is to design a scenario and get agreement to participate.
There are so many ways to add variation to the game (random draw objectives of table "events") and keeps both players from optimizing for a set scenario.
This has been the justification for many Maelstrom missions to prevent the sit back and blast each other confrontations.

Your friend sounds like he really wants to gain advantage to the point of infringing on your fun... not the best trait of a good friend: you may have to make fun of him a few times to keep him honest. I could only see that he could feel some limitations would be needed if his army is much smaller than yours and he does not have much to choose from at this time.

I think it was mentioned the "scrub", this web site is quite interesting for defining the true "playing to win" and how the "scrub" mindset prevents proper problem solving:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

My unofficial poll: what condition are his models?
Barely assembled,
Primed,
Painted a couple colours,
Fully painted?

Just curious, I find most people who like to game in general make at an attempt to get some painting done because they like the look of the game the spectacle of it.
Those who like to play to win (possibly at "all costs"?) as their main motivation from my personal experience may not even have the models fully assembled because they mean little more than chess pieces.

Good luck!

His army is:
Assembled: Yes
Primed: Yes
Painted a couple of colours: Yes
Fully Painted: I believe he has yes, though a 'Thin your Paints' meme would be appropriate.

As for army sizes, well he has over twice the amount of stuff I have to draw from.

I have an established cost system for my homebrews - I price them as I see fit then post them on Dakka. If I get good feedback they stay, if I get told they are too cheap/OP they change

Thanks for the luck


As I post this I feel I should also mention the scenario he wants to play for our next game after this one. I have been trying to push for a bunker assault as with the old 4th edition rules (good times ), but he wasnt having it. Then suddenly out of the blue this appeared:

I have 2000 points and a single bunker (no extra weapons, just a 3+ cover save)
He has 3000 points but may take no more than 30 models (yes that is 300 points/model, something tells me I wont be enjoying this) and yes a Primarch is confirmed.
At the end of the game if I still control it I get 3VP. If he controls it or destroys it he gets 3VP.

Right now I feel like telling him either a straight up NO, or that I will be purchasing units at half cost. Oh, and I shall be bringing my Karl Gerat (Banehammer).

[EDIT]
And I am limited to 5 tanks

You really need to stand up for yourself. He refuses to play anything you want, and insists on always playing things massively stacked in his favor. Great friend...

How 'bout this instead

You:2,000 points

Him:3,000 points



All infantry troop models you have gain the "send in the next wave!" rule where if the unit is destroyed you may place an identical unit( including upgrades) into reserves that automatically walk on your board edge next turn.


Victory can only be attained by capturing the fortification you control.



The Fortification is treated as an" superheavy" building with 12hps with a transport capacity of 25 and can add 4 heavy bolter sponsons for 20pts.



Half of his army must begin the game in reserves, and any flyers he has( if any) can only come in on turn 3.



Any SM homebrew characters have a max cap of ML3 and may only ever pick power from the Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis tables , max T of 5 (if Independent Character) or 6 (if just a character). Max number of wounds allowed is 3. Invul save can be no greater than 4+


Primarch is only allowed if the entire army follows 30k rules and no other custom characters of is are on the battlefield.

 master of ordinance wrote:

>He only specified Heavy Support Tanks, so bring a command tank and two escorts, a Thunderer and a Destroyer.
>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.
>Enter the Shadowsword.

It's a new formation:

Bring ten vehicles, get a Shadowsword for free.

Totes fair. If he complains, "tuff".

Ah, good that he has made an attempt to pretty up his models so he does have some art in his soul.

Not cool the guy has more to draw from than you and he still wants to limit what you can bring.

Was the email phrased as a "how does this sound?" or "this is what we are doing"?
Destroying a bunker is easy, the "gotcha" is capture OR destroy, he could just sit back and shoot at it.
Must be a mighty fine bunker for 1000pts, you should be fielding two or three of these:


From the points he is suggesting it is most likely some Centurions and Terminators to suck-up that many points down to 30 models.
Oh wait, "30 models" I wonder if he is going to play some heavy formations like the 3 Vindicator combo with the apocalyptic blast.
I take it force organization is out the window right?

It is just when one person dictates terms like this it just feels like a "setup".
Not inviting any say in the matter just comes across as selfish or at least thoughtless.

I am sorry, but what I read so-far I would be looking for more "competitive" games that have more balance to play against this guy, 40k is a bad choice because he will always leverage it to his advantage.

Whatever you do, just try to enjoy and have fun.

CaptainSuperglue wrote:
Well go the other way with it, honestly there is more to Imperial Guard than tanks, and then you might actually have a fun game instead of a 4 hour long argument, as much fun as being bloody minded is.

Typically I find when someone is rather controlling in this regard, springing ANYTHING unexpected on them will end in a 4 hour argument of being "cheap" and OP and anything that springs to mind.

How many infantry guard do you have? Blobs of fearless 30 men with orders can do some crazy things. Use ADLs, assassins, prists, commys and Inquisition.

Do not forget command squads (Orders) and having a Master of Ordinance can drop a few templates

Do you have inquisitor 'counts as' models? Ally them in and go crazy with the psychic powers yourself! Nobody does psychics quite like the imperial guard, you can have double his warp charges for about 1/3 the price if you make a good list.

Yeah, a few primaris psykers can ruin his day.

Shut down his psychic phase completely by turn 2 with some summoned pink horrors flooding the warp pool...

Model availability might be a problem here BUT the OP's avatar gives hope.

Beat him at his own game and show him why you hate playing psychics so much, when there are double his points in summoned demons on the table and no leman russes to be seen....

Now that is being bloody minded.

For extra lols tell him you're bringing a tank heavy army before hand, then say 'nar I was kidding, you said not to!' and watch his las cannons kill your 5 point per model men.

But now that is doing the bait and switch, the gloves would be off then.

I just have a problem of limiting vehicles with Imperial Guard, it is just blatantly unfair.
Any heavy choices, what is left?
Fast Attack: Cannot use walkers (usually want 3 so only 5 remember)? Really not much left here either unless you get cavalry out. Flyers allowed or is that a given not to use?
Elites: Largely garbage BUT you could deep strike in some 5 man Scions suicide squads with melta.
HQ: Use your tank choices here and field Pask just to make a point (Dance baby dance!).
Troops: Really? Transports are usually needed to at least protect the odd platoon squad.

Yes, there are some excellent ways to try to turn the tables but I suspect there will be much yelling and "next time" it will be "You get 1000 pts, I get 3000 and your are deployed in dangerous terrain with no cover save (quick-sand), no deep strike and I get first turn with no stealing the initiative.".

Bring all the tanks you like man, if he whines tell him to deal with it, Sounds to me he just wants an "epic movie marines curb stomping the little guardsmen" game. fun for him. and hell with the right rules maybe you could even have some fun with that (Maybe track down the movie marine rules and see if he's up to having some fun with those, layer your set up so your guardsmen return to the game table once destroyed after a turn or two, and make a game of "how long the space marines can hold out against the hoards" not something you'd wanna do with every game, but could be a fun thing to try once in awhile)


what it comes down too is, he as a SM player can easily match and deal with your tanks.

you as an IG player can ALSO deal with his psykers (ally in the anti-psyker assasin is one option) I mean IGs have access to a fair bit of psykic power if they so choose to use it.

so to my way of thinking these are not problems. the big problem, as I see it is stuff like his custom character etc. which is just absolutely mind bogglingly STUPID. particuklarly as not even some of the scariest SM characters in the offical game have straight 7 stats. I don't mind the idea of custom characters (although I'd argue that the intent with the default captain, etc with relics and customization is to allow you to make your own character) but not if they're like that.

Use the shadowsword...

...by sticking it up his exhaust port...

...sideways...

...with the worst paint job possible...

Bring in the shadowsword
Watch his face as you (potentially) 1 shot his home-brew character
Or play angry marines and call in the 'orbital strike cruiser' SD,AP2,apocalyptic mega blast,+1 to D table (1=2,3=4)

 djphranq wrote:
Use the shadowsword...
...by sticking it up his exhaust port...
...sideways...
...with the worst paint job possible...

I think that would be the "dip" method.

 jhe90 wrote:
Wonder if he will agree to proxy say a warlord titan ;-)

Even better, a homebrew Imperator. Keep it in reserve and bring it in turn 2. At this point reveal your glorious tinfoil Imperator outfit hidden under your clothes and proceed to climb on the table followed by "I forgo shootting phase and shall now assault. Time to use my stomp."

But in all seriousness, confront him. If he's a real friend he'll understand. Just be firm, dont give him the business but draw your line in the sand.

To the OP: in both the examples you have given, i would have taken that as a direct insult.

He enjoys winning and is stacking the odds in his favour by cheating. (making a custom character and NOT showing your opponent his stats and rules until the game is already underway)

You need a better friend who understands points costs.

FYI: There is a 'player finder' feature at the top of the 'find a game' sub-forum in 'general discussion' on the main forum page.

I'm in support of the "trade armies" idea. Especially since it sounds like he's your main opponent. Trading armies lets him see exactly why you might be inclined to make certain suggestions regarding the price or power of his homebrewed stuff. It also might give you a chance to understand new drawbacks that make him reluctant to implement such changes. "Oh wow. Now that I'm controlling this guy, I realize how vulnerable he is to small arms fire," or whatever.

To play devil's advocate, I also strongly dislike facing heavily mechanized forces. Unless you tailor to kill lots of tanks or play certain armies (which, to be fair, he does), mech spam basically says to your opponent, "Oh, no. All those models in your army without anti-tank guns basically don't get to do anything meaningful." Now that said, 3 or 4 guardsman tanks probably aren't crossing that line. Especially if one remembers that basic marines have krak grenades. >_>

I know a lot of people are anti-homebrew or pro-"pure" codex games, but a well done homebrew can add some cool, flavorful changes to the game and add a sense of ownership to one's army rules. And it's not like "pure" rules aren't prone to poor balance either. *That* said, it sounds like he really just wants to play a game where he has a huge advantage and gets to smash face, and a great cure for that is trading armies so you can show him just how much fun that is for the other person who spends 3+ hours moving models around the table.

EDIT: Wait, just read your post in the small games thread. How many points do you normally play at, Master of Ordinance? Because lots of tanks at low points *does* kind of neuter most armies.

SirDonlad wrote:To the OP: in both the examples you have given, i would have taken that as a direct insult.

He enjoys winning and is stacking the odds in his favour by cheating. (making a custom character and NOT showing your opponent his stats and rules until the game is already underway)

You need a better friend who understands points costs.

FYI: There is a 'player finder' feature at the top of the 'find a game' sub-forum in 'general discussion' on the main forum page.

There are other people at my club thankfully and I have made arrangements with two others in case.

commander dante wrote:Bring in the shadowsword
Watch his face as you (potentially) 1 shot his home-brew character
Or play angry marines and call in the 'orbital strike cruiser' SD,AP2,apocalyptic mega blast,+1 to D table (1=2,3=4)

Its in the 'If he brings yet another underpriced demigod' list and is priced at 1/2points.

BrianDavion wrote:Bring all the tanks you like man, if he whines tell him to deal with it, Sounds to me he just wants an "epic movie marines curb stomping the little guardsmen" game. fun for him. and hell with the right rules maybe you could even have some fun with that (Maybe track down the movie marine rules and see if he's up to having some fun with those, layer your set up so your guardsmen return to the game table once destroyed after a turn or two, and make a game of "how long the space marines can hold out against the hoards" not something you'd wanna do with every game, but could be a fun thing to try once in awhile)


what it comes down too is, he as a SM player can easily match and deal with your tanks.

you as an IG player can ALSO deal with his psykers (ally in the anti-psyker assasin is one option) I mean IGs have access to a fair bit of psykic power if they so choose to use it.

so to my way of thinking these are not problems. the big problem, as I see it is stuff like his custom character etc. which is just absolutely mind bogglingly STUPID. particuklarly as not even some of the scariest SM characters in the offical game have straight 7 stats. I don't mind the idea of custom characters (although I'd argue that the intent with the default captain, etc with relics and customization is to allow you to make your own character) but not if they're like that.

Im getting that assassin as soon as possible - however IG psykers are on the pricey side with the only one really affordable being the Astropath upgrade to the command squad.

Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

>He only specified Heavy Support Tanks, so bring a command tank and two escorts, a Thunderer and a Destroyer.
>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.
>Enter the Shadowsword.

It's a new formation:

Bring ten vehicles, get a Shadowsword for free.

Totes fair. If he complains, "tuff".

If only I had 10 tanks to bring... currently sitting at 2 Battletanks, an Eradicator, 2 Exterminators, a Thunderer and a Destroyer plus the Shadowsword.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:How 'bout this instead

You:2,000 points

Him:3,000 points



All infantry troop models you have gain the "send in the next wave!" rule where if the unit is destroyed you may place an identical unit( including upgrades) into reserves that automatically walk on your board edge next turn.


Victory can only be attained by capturing the fortification you control.



The Fortification is treated as an" superheavy" building with 12hps with a transport capacity of 25 and can add 4 heavy bolter sponsons for 20pts.



Half of his army must begin the game in reserves, and any flyers he has( if any) can only come in on turn 3.



Any SM homebrew characters have a max cap of ML3 and may only ever pick power from the Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis tables , max T of 5 (if Independent Character) or 6 (if just a character). Max number of wounds allowed is 3. Invul save can be no greater than 4+


Primarch is only allowed if the entire army follows 30k rules and no other custom characters of is are on the battlefield.

This sounds a good idea and shall be sprung asap. There will be no flyers (thankfully) as he cant transport them and I have non.

Wyldhunt wrote:I'm in support of the "trade armies" idea. Especially since it sounds like he's your main opponent. Trading armies lets him see exactly why you might be inclined to make certain suggestions regarding the price or power of his homebrewed stuff. It also might give you a chance to understand new drawbacks that make him reluctant to implement such changes. "Oh wow. Now that I'm controlling this guy, I realize how vulnerable he is to small arms fire," or whatever.

To play devil's advocate, I also strongly dislike facing heavily mechanized forces. Unless you tailor to kill lots of tanks or play certain armies (which, to be fair, he does), mech spam basically says to your opponent, "Oh, no. All those models in your army without anti-tank guns basically don't get to do anything meaningful." Now that said, 3 or 4 guardsman tanks probably aren't crossing that line. Especially if one remembers that basic marines have krak grenades. >_>

I know a lot of people are anti-homebrew or pro-"pure" codex games, but a well done homebrew can add some cool, flavorful changes to the game and add a sense of ownership to one's army rules. And it's not like "pure" rules aren't prone to poor balance either. *That* said, it sounds like he really just wants to play a game where he has a huge advantage and gets to smash face, and a great cure for that is trading armies so you can show him just how much fun that is for the other person who spends 3+ hours moving models around the table.

EDIT: Wait, just read your post in the small games thread. How many points do you normally play at, Master of Ordinance? Because lots of tanks at low points *does* kind of neuter most armies.

My list in that game (which was against Grey Knights) consisted of a Command Tank (Battle Tank) an Eradicator and another Battle Tank, a Company Command Squad with an MOO and camo gear and a pair of Veteran Squads, each with a Heavy Bolter and Forward Sentries. It was a really close game and both of us enjoyed it.

My usual size these days is 1.5K to 2.5K, averaging out at 2K.



Im building my list, and will post it here soon.

OP: does the homebrew model have eternal warrior?

commander dante wrote:
OP: does the homebrew model have eternal warrior?

Yes, sadly. S: D was something that I had thought about.

 master of ordinance wrote:

commander dante wrote:
OP: does the homebrew model have eternal warrior?

Yes, sadly. S: D was something that I had thought about.

Eternal warrior doesnt effect S: D
Hmm
I got it!
Play skitarii
Have allies with CONCUSSIVE weapons (grav-guns ect)
Take the 'phase taser' relic
Concuss the beefcake homebrew model
Charge it with the phase taser
If you cause a wound, the model is instantly removed from play (he has to take an initative test, but he is I1 so auto fails)
Laugh and show him the rules
???
Profit

Or just use S: D and get lucky

Does the Imperial Guard REALLY need to be capped? I play Orks, and in the four games I've had this year against pure Guard lists (Including one with more Wyverns than you can count with one hand) I've ended up nearly tabling my foe.

As things stand now the Guard needs more help than handicaps.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Does the Imperial Guard REALLY need to be capped? I play Orks, and in the four games I've had this year against pure Guard lists (Including one with more Wyverns than you can count with one hand) I've ended up nearly tabling my foe.

As things stand now the Guard needs more help than handicaps.

When an Ork player is saying your army needs help you know things really have got dire :(


Anyway, here is my list, including one Homebrew character (rules and fluff in spoilers)

Command troop

Darjeeling
Battletank
Artificer Hull
Extra Armour
Coaxial Heavy Stubber
Armoured track Guards
Camo Netting
Recovery Gear


Battle Tank
Artificer Hull
Coaxial Heavy Stubber
Armoured Track Guards
Camo netting
Recovery Gear
Pintle Mount

Eradicator
Artificer Hull
Coaxial Heavy Stubber
Armoured Track Guards
Camo netting
Recovery Gear
Extra Armour

Troop 1
Exterminator
Pintle mount
Veteran Crew
Recovery Gear

Exterminator
Pintle Mount
Veteran Crew
Recovery Gear

Assault Gun troop
Thunderer
Pintle Mount
Veteran Crew
Grenade Mesh
Camo Netting

Tank Destroyer Troop
Deimos Vindicator Destroyer
Pintle Mount
Camo Gear
(I know this is technically an SM unit but I am damned if I am paying 30 points more for less BS and less shots)

Command Section
MOO
MOF
Medic
Krak Grenades
Camo Gear

Section 1
Veterans
Heavy Bolter
Krak Grenades
Forward Sentries

Section 2
Veterans
Heavy Bolter
Krak Grenades
Forward Sentries

Total: 1596 (96 over, but it wont matter much)
this list (as you can probably tell) is themed around the British armed forces organisation during Normandy, 1944, with a hint of Germany thrown in for spice. The command section are Warlords Games Churchill VII's (with the Eradicator converted to a VIII) and the Infantry are Warlords British Infantry (apart from the command section whom are Perry Brothers Dads Army miniatures).

In addition to this I am thinking about preparing an 'Equaliser force' in case he wants to play his characters (I know he is bringing some of them, I am not sure which though) but dosnt want to increase the points cost of them. Am I fair in doing this?

The mission is an objectives one with Night Fighting in place. In addition we are allowed to pick 4 special rules for 4 units, but with no duplicates of the rule. (as he has a Landraider Terminus Ultra I think he will be taking that with Armour Bane)

You talked to him about his homebrew units being undercosted and he doesn't want to fix it?

Why do you play with this guy again?

Take the Leman Russ Rediculanator

Av15 all round (Precedent - Mighty Bulwarks)
HP 9
Has a 4++ on every face but rear
Immune to the special effects of melta, lance and haywire
Typhon seige cannon (st10 ap1 primary weapon ignores cover 7" blast) with co-axel autocannon
2 quad laser destroyer (2 tl st9 ap1 ordnance shots each) sponsoons
Command tank granting bs4 and the option to auto grant a guard order to ANY unit a turn, infanty, artillery or vehicles. These orders can be from the officers orders or the tank commander orders.
Warlord trait - gives every friendly unit within 18" rending and monster hunter/tank hunter.

300pts

If he wants to pay silly low amounts on homebrew stuff, well then, you also need a battle to 'check out' if this needs a points increase from 300pts right? Make a point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh forgot to mention - the rediculanator is a SH.

I think that Darjeeling girl will do, really. If that doesn't curbstomp anything in her path, nothing would

Play a Culexus Assassin when he wants to pull out 10 Levels of Psy mastery..., fun times ahead...

And a Vindicare, also fun...

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
I think that Darjeeling girl will do, really. If that doesn't curbstomp anything in her path, nothing would

Actually during her playtest she proved to be really balanced, if maybe 10 points to cheap.... I should note that the tank is not free with her, you have to purchase the tank with those upgrades THEN buy her for it. Im not that big of an donkey-cave

I actually REALLY like that tank character.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
I think that Darjeeling girl will do, really. If that doesn't curbstomp anything in her path, nothing would

Actually during her playtest she proved to be really balanced, if maybe 10 points to cheap.... I should note that the tank is not free with her, you have to purchase the tank with those upgrades THEN buy her for it. Im not that big of an donkey-cave

Well, I thought it was your answer to his unstoppable custom character. Now I've given her rules a good read, I see they aren't that OP. Despite the squadron-wide buffs, it's not like she's making your tanks Monstrous Creatures or something. The vulnerability of tanks to close combat, grav and point-blank melta shots remains.

Space Marines have enough tools in their arsenal to deal with that and greater threats. Which brings us back to line one... why capping your army at all? People are strange, really.

FacebookJunkie wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.

This.

+ no more home brew characters from him.

Honest question: why do you keep playing with this person? You're putting a lot of effort into figuring out how to appease them and still have a decent game when the real answer is to say "sorry, I'm not playing 40k with you until you stop being a ".

Also, your custom tank character is a textbook example of how most people are bad at game design. You've got way too many special rules, so even if the final point cost is balanced the character is still a bloated mess. One of the lessons you have to learn to be a good game designer is that you don't need to represent every possible aspect of a character with explicit rules. It adds excessive complexity and it buries the important elements of the character in all the clutter of marginally-relevant rules. For example, your gunner's ability triggers once every few games, so why include it at all? Get rid of the wasted text and let the reader focus on the most important elements of the character.

Give him a taste of his own Medicine.


Leman Russ Dominator- Heavy Assault Variant.

200

14/14/12

HP 5
BS 3

Weapons

Turret Mounted Super charged Battle cannon.
St 9 Ap 2 Large blast, heavy 72 inchs.
(Buster round) St 10 Ap 1 48 inchs blast ordinance.

Hull mounted TL lascannon

Sponson TL Autocannons.

2 x Hunter killer missile.

Pintle mount Heavy Bolter.

War gear: Extra Armor, Spotlight, Unditching gear, track guards, smoke launchers, fire barrels.

Extra rules:
Unstable Power Source: The Dominator runs on an overloaded plasma reactor. If the Tank is "Exploded" the explosion is ST 7 Ap 2 starting 3 inchs away adding the D6 for the explosion distance.


That or go wild and make a "Super Baneblade" hehehe

 Engine of War wrote:
Give him a taste of his own Medicine.

That would mean making a few changes to your proposed rules:



I think this should be a fair compromise.

Peregrine wrote:Honest question: why do you keep playing with this person? You're putting a lot of effort into figuring out how to appease them and still have a decent game when the real answer is to say "sorry, I'm not playing 40k with you until you stop being a ".

Also, your custom tank character is a textbook example of how most people are bad at game design. You've got way too many special rules, so even if the final point cost is balanced the character is still a bloated mess. One of the lessons you have to learn to be a good game designer is that you don't need to represent every possible aspect of a character with explicit rules. It adds excessive complexity and it buries the important elements of the character in all the clutter of marginally-relevant rules. For example, your gunner's ability triggers once every few games, so why include it at all? Get rid of the wasted text and let the reader focus on the most important elements of the character.

Its partly a pride thing, but more so its that he does not really have many other friends whom play and at the club the only people whom he games against are myself and a Space Puppy playing friend whom has less of a problem he just outflanks and massacres everything (as all Space Pups do).
That said I may just tell him im going to be giving things a break until he calms down with the curbstomp units a bit. Thankyou Peregrine for this, its a good suggestion and if he wont listen then I will be forced to do so.

Ill think about dropping some of the rules. In all honesty those two where just in there for a bit of fun, and the off chance that a trained and experienced crew could really bring the hurt every now and again.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
I think that Darjeeling girl will do, really. If that doesn't curbstomp anything in her path, nothing would

Actually during her playtest she proved to be really balanced, if maybe 10 points to cheap.... I should note that the tank is not free with her, you have to purchase the tank with those upgrades THEN buy her for it. Im not that big of an donkey-cave

Well, I thought it was your answer to his unstoppable custom character. Now I've given her rules a good read, I see they aren't that OP. Despite the squadron-wide buffs, it's not like she's making your tanks Monstrous Creatures or something. The vulnerability of tanks to close combat, grav and point-blank melta shots remains.

Space Marines have enough tools in their arsenal to deal with that and greater threats. Which brings us back to line one... why capping your army at all? People are strange, really.

Thanks, I wasnt trying to go for an OP character - as I said before an escalating arms race is the last thing really on my mind. If it ended up like that how long would it really take for a tableflip/friendship breakdown?
Anyway, I have chosen not to listen to his rules capping, all 5 of my tanks, my assault gun and my tank destroyer will be seeing the field this Monday.

If he cant deal with them then that is is own hard lookout, as you said there are many, many ways in which the SM codex can hard counter tanks, hell I can think of 21 straight off the top of my head without even thinking into it. If he cant handle them then I will be genuinely surprised.

Engine of War wrote:Give him a taste of his own Medicine.


Leman Russ Dominator- Heavy Assault Variant.

200

14/14/12

HP 5
BS 3

Weapons

Turret Mounted Super charged Battle cannon.
St 9 Ap 2 Large blast, heavy 72 inchs.
(Buster round) St 10 Ap 1 48 inchs blast ordinance.

Hull mounted TL lascannon

Sponson TL Autocannons.

2 x Hunter killer missile.

Pintle mount Heavy Bolter.

War gear: Extra Armor, Spotlight, Unditching gear, track guards, smoke launchers, fire barrels.

Extra rules:
Unstable Power Source: The Dominator runs on an overloaded plasma reactor. If the Tank is "Exploded" the explosion is ST 7 Ap 2 starting 3 inchs away adding the D6 for the explosion distance.


That or go wild and make a "Super Baneblade" hehehe

Oooh, dont tempt me


Anyway, I have come up with a counter of sorts: A reservist force as it where. I will bring a number of extra units and, upon inspecting his list, I shall play a number of these equal in points value to what his things should actually be. For instance, if he brings the afore mentioned primarch level character and he is still at 270 points I will deploy an extra 230 points worth of models. If it comes to it I shall even bring my Banehammer out, if needs must to balance the books.

How does this sound? Fair or not?

 master of ordinance wrote:


The problem is that he is trying to limit me on the number of tanks I can bring. He keeps telling me that I can bring no more than 2 or 3 or 4 as he "hates fighting tanks" whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

This right here is why homebrew rules are a slippery slope. Your "friend" basically made a discount primarch for half the points.

IMO he should be able to tailor an anti-armor list as long as you give him a gentlemanly heads up "Hey, I'm bringing a lot of armor."

She's quite powerful for her points. Is she 40 points ontop of a tank commander or just 40 points?

Getting an option to upgrade to a 6+ invuln for 5 points, or a 5+ invuln for 10 points is pretty huge. Especially considering camo gear is 15 points for a 6+ and is still worth it on high cost vehicles like tanks.

Getting a second shot from the battle cannon seems fine, as it's on a double 1.

BS5 is quite high, Pask is BS4 and he's supposed to be one of the best. Humans aren't really supposed to get better than BS4 iirc.

Allowing all tanks in your entire army to become BS4 for 10 points is also quite powerful.

So is using an order that succeeds 11/12 times to force anything to reroll saves.

Just out of interest: What do you think is wrong with Pask right now?

 master of ordinance wrote:
Its partly a pride thing, but more so its that he does not really have many other friends whom play and at the club the only people whom he games against are myself and a Space Puppy playing friend whom has less of a problem he just outflanks and massacres everything (as all Space Pups do).

So what? You have no obligation to ensure that he is able to play 40k. If nobody wants to play him because of his poor behavior then he has only himself to blame. You don't need to martyr yourself to save him from the shame of having to admit that he has been a and ask people to give him another chance.

Since you are into using Homebrew rules, I cannot believe you haven't thought of this:

1) Have Creed as your Warlord.
2) On the beginning of Turn 2, deploy 2000 points of Necrons into your opponent's backfield.
3) Chomp on your cigar and grin as he goes "CREEEEEEEEED!"

 Psienesis wrote:
Since you are into using Homebrew rules, I cannot believe you haven't thought of this:

1) Have Creed as your Warlord.
2) On the beginning of Turn 2, deploy 2000 points of Necrons BEINBLEHDS into your opponent's backfield.
3) Chomp on your cigar and grin as he goes "CREEEEEEEEED!"

There is a time for tact. This isn't it. Crush him. Use your anger, but don't let it control you. If I agree to have some fun and then they go and act like I was trying and they had some great victory. I have to come and correct people. Hell most of the people I play with wouldn't be as good as they are without me. At least here. Doesn't matter if its family, friend, or someone from the FLGS. Pissing me off is the worst thing you can do. It takes a lot to piss me off. Thankfully I don't have to do that too often. Most people I play with are cool.

CWDub wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:


The problem is that he is trying to limit me on the number of tanks I can bring. He keeps telling me that I can bring no more than 2 or 3 or 4 as he "hates fighting tanks" whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

This right here is why homebrew rules are a slippery slope. Your "friend" basically made a discount primarch for half the points.

IMO he should be able to tailor an anti-armor list as long as you give him a gentlemanly heads up "Hey, I'm bringing a lot of armor."

He knows I bring armour and im fine with tailored lists. Its the homebrew shenanigans that are getting to me.

Colehkxix wrote:She's quite powerful for her points. Is she 40 points ontop of a tank commander or just 40 points?

Getting an option to upgrade to a 6+ invuln for 5 points, or a 5+ invuln for 10 points is pretty huge. Especially considering camo gear is 15 points for a 6+ and is still worth it on high cost vehicles like tanks.

Getting a second shot from the battle cannon seems fine, as it's on a double 1.

BS5 is quite high, Pask is BS4 and he's supposed to be one of the best. Humans aren't really supposed to get better than BS4 iirc.

Allowing all tanks in your entire army to become BS4 for 10 points is also quite powerful.

So is using an order that succeeds 11/12 times to force anything to reroll saves.

Just out of interest: What do you think is wrong with Pask right now?

Pask? he costs 70 points in total for the ability to reroll 1's on the to hit rolls. His turret ability is underwhelming, unless mounted in a Punisher and quite frankly he is massively over priced for what he does.

The 6+ is for 5 points, and the 5+ is reserved to the command tank, not other tanks can get it.
BS4 for +10 points on to an already 120+ point tank is not that bad, as Veterans get it and +1 LD for 1 point a model.
11/12? True, maybe it does need toning down a bit.
Camo gear gives Stealth - +1 to the cover save.

The cost may seem low, but look at the conditions. It HAS to be a Battletank and it HAS to have those upgrades. In total, including the tank, she costs 245 points. Not that powerful, all things given.

Peregrine wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Its partly a pride thing, but more so its that he does not really have many other friends whom play and at the club the only people whom he games against are myself and a Space Puppy playing friend whom has less of a problem he just outflanks and massacres everything (as all Space Pups do).

So what? You have no obligation to ensure that he is able to play 40k. If nobody wants to play him because of his poor behavior then he has only himself to blame. You don't need to martyr yourself to save him from the shame of having to admit that he has been a and ask people to give him another chance.

You are right.
tonight I am going to give this ultimatum: Either all homebrew rules are posted on Dakka and modifications are made as per feedback or we play vanilla codex. Or we just do not play at all.

Psienesis wrote:Since you are into using Homebrew rules, I cannot believe you haven't thought of this:

1) Have Creed as your Warlord.
2) On the beginning of Turn 2, deploy 2000 points of Necrons into your opponent's backfield.
3) Chomp on your cigar and grin as he goes "CREEEEEEEEED!"

This would be suggested mere days after I sold 3K points of Necrons

Gamgee wrote:There is a time for tact. This isn't it. Crush him. Use your anger, but don't let it control you. If I agree to have some fun and then they go and act like I was trying and they had some great victory. I have to come and correct people. Hell most of the people I play with wouldn't be as good as they are without me. At least here. Doesn't matter if its family, friend, or someone from the FLGS. Pissing me off is the worst thing you can do. It takes a lot to piss me off. Thankfully I don't have to do that too often. Most people I play with are cool.

Agreed. Im fed up of him claiming victory when in reality it was these overpowered characters/units that carried the game. usually it is only these that are left at the end.

Sounds like this is less tactics on how to beat what a player has and more how to "manage" a player.

The slippery slope is already done: permission to change the rules of play has happened. Good luck in getting any kind of understanding of what he will field. 40k is unbalanced but at least what can be sent against you is known.

Oddly, I had a "friend" who sounded a lot like this guy and he "really" liked playing me... until I started winning. Now I can never seem to get a game in with him.

 Talizvar wrote:
Sounds like this is less tactics on how to beat what a player has and more how to "manage" a player.

The slippery slope is already done: permission to change the rules of play has happened. Good luck in getting any kind of understanding of what he will field. 40k is unbalanced but at least what can be sent against you is known.

Oddly, I had a "friend" who sounded a lot like this guy and he "really" liked playing me... until I started winning. Now I can never seem to get a game in with him.

So you dont think that the 'It gets vetoed by the dakka community or it sees not the battle board' may not work?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I have just heard, as well as the conclave he is bringing a demi company.

 master of ordinance wrote:
So you dont think that the 'It gets vetoed by the dakka community or it sees not the battle board' may not work?

I doubt an "appeal to authority" argument would mean much to this person.
"Yeah, I talked this out on Dakka dakka and they figure you are out of line."
That would go over real well, especially if he goes and looks it up.

Oh, and I have just heard, as well as the conclave he is bringing a demi company.

I assume he is bringing two for all the benefits that entails.
Prepare to drown in a sea of marines and vehicles.
I assume he has a bunch of drop pods, rhinos and razorbacks?
The Librarian conclave is just being a pain, the question is are they going to be in terminator armor or not.
Since they need to be close together some templates may be in order.

Anyway, the shenanigans will continue.
Learn to lose well and he will be happy.
Make strong attempts to win and manage that and he will no longer want to play you or will double-down on new unfair "rules".
You have a choice.

 Talizvar wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
So you dont think that the 'It gets vetoed by the dakka community or it sees not the battle board' may not work?

I doubt an "appeal to authority" argument would mean much to this person.
"Yeah, I talked this out on Dakka dakka and they figure you are out of line."
That would go over real well, especially if he goes and looks it up.

Oh, and I have just heard, as well as the conclave he is bringing a demi company.

I assume he is bringing two for all the benefits that entails.
Prepare to drown in a sea of marines and vehicles.
I assume he has a bunch of drop pods, rhinos and razorbacks?
The Librarian conclave is just being a pain, the question is are they going to be in terminator armor or not.
Since they need to be close together some templates may be in order.

Anyway, the shenanigans will continue.
Learn to lose well and he will be happy.
Make strong attempts to win and manage that and he will no longer want to play you or will double-down on new unfair "rules".
You have a choice.

The librarians, from what I have seen (and that is all of them) consist of three terminator psykers and a two in Power Armour. Im planning on dropping a Demolisher cannon on them if possible.

By vetoed on Dakka I dont mean im telling him about this, I mean I will expect him to post the character/formation/unit on the Proposed Rules forum and actually listen to the feedback. And i dont intend to lose. If he wants to keep trying to inflict penalties to my army then too bad, im not having it any more. If one of the "Holy trinity" codexes, the most powerful there is, can not handle one of the weakest, one that even Ork players can handle reliably well, then it is too bad.
If this means we stop playing then so be it.

I know he has several Rhinos and Razorbacks, but im coming prepared for this anyway.

Get the 4 assassins. They will murder his conclave nicely and even be able to handle his homebrew.

 Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Since you are into using Homebrew rules, I cannot believe you haven't thought of this:

1) Have Creed as your Warlord.
2) On the beginning of Turn 2, deploy 2000 points of Necrons BEINBLEHDS into your opponent's backfield.
3) Chomp on your cigar and grin as he goes "CREEEEEEEEED!"

Really though, that guy sounds like he was being a tool. Even if he isn't one outside of 40k.
Honestly as far as homebrew goes it should always be a "let them see it all and get their permission" thing. Like I have a bit of a concept for a custom Space Marine chapter but if I EVER wanted to field that for real, I'd send my opponent the whole Codex AND my planned army list first.
Then again I'd be close to doing that for actual armies anyway, so I suppose I just want to make absolutely sure my opponents won't be upset with me. Better than the opposite, I suppose.

Okay, so this is how it went.
I rolled up and managed to persuade him to drop his homebrew assault squad of S and T 6 multi attack, rage, shred, soulblaze (I think), etc, etc squad on the premise that if they where on the table my Super Heavy would also be.

In total in a 1.5K game he had:
Librarian conclave - 5 level 2's in power armour.
three Vindicators in a squadron
2 Rhino's and a Razorback.
Some homebrew LotD captain with 4 wounds and masses of abilities incluing the ability to bring anyone he killed back as a LotD trooper - but a notable lack of invulnerability to Exterminator fire (cost 200 points)
2 full 10 man tactical squads, one with a Plasma gun and Plasma pistol and one with a Flamer
2 5 man LotD squads, one with a Melta and multi Melta and one with a Flamer and Heavy Flamer
a five man assault squad with Boltpistols (im not sure what else, they died in cannon fire before they could assault)
5 man tactical squad
Telion and about 8 scouts
A Vindicare assassin
Primarch Vulkan
Rhino
Rhino
Razorback

I had:
Darjeeling in her tank
another Battletank with Artificer hull, coaxial and pintle heavy stubbers, camo netting and armoured track guards
An Eradicator with Extra armour, artificer hull armoured track guards camo netting and a coaxial heavy stubber

2 Exterminators with pintle heavy stubbers and veteran crews

1 Thunderer with extra armour and a pintle heavy stubber

1 Deimos Laser Destroyer with a pintle heavy stubber and camo netting

CC squad with an MoO and MoF

2 veteran squads with Heavy Bolters and Forward Sentries

1 Veteran squad with Forward Sentries and a Melta

1 Veteran Squad with Forward Sentries and 2 Meltas

Lord Commissar

(The last three where hastily thrown in after seeing the special character)

End result: I won. All my squads - barring 5 from the double Melta squad - , my Thunderer and my Deimos where lost, one Battletank was immobilised by terrain and one by an unlucky Meltabomb attack. Everything he had, barring his Primarch was wiped. The Primarch was reduced to two wounds but IWND back to three.


End result:
I think he is starting to come round. Certainly there was less - actually none of the "IG tanks are OP" complaints. The game was fun and several times hinged on the balance such as when three troops assaulted a tank each (the captain, the surviving LotD sarge and a surviving Tactical Marine Sarge) only to whiff with the melta bombs and the captains sword only take two out of the three HP from the tank.
The only kicker was the primarch suddenly emerging from the wreck of the Razorback. I had not expected a Primarch.

 Gamgee wrote:
There is a time for tact. This isn't it. Crush him. Use your anger, but don't let it control you. If I agree to have some fun and then they go and act like I was trying and they had some great victory. I have to come and correct people. Hell most of the people I play with wouldn't be as good as they are without me. At least here. Doesn't matter if its family, friend, or someone from the FLGS. Pissing me off is the worst thing you can do. It takes a lot to piss me off. Thankfully I don't have to do that too often. Most people I play with are cool.

You posted a TCW video. That is goooooood. OP: bring the shadowsword, aim it right at his stupid homebrew and say: Witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational shadowsword!

Wow...

This is still going on?

I am hard up for a game, but I'd never play the OPs friend more than once!

Really though competitive rivalry is a good thing, but this doesn't sound like that at all. Sounds like this guy is taking advantage of your friendliness.

Maybe time to darkcloak him? And by that I mean tell him flat out you think he is being a douchebag.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Spoiler:

Okay, so this is how it went.
I rolled up and managed to persuade him to drop his homebrew assault squad of S and T 6 multi attack, rage, shred, soulblaze (I think), etc, etc squad on the premise that if they where on the table my Super Heavy would also be.

In total in a 1.5K game he had:
Librarian conclave - 5 level 2's in power armour.
three Vindicators in a squadron
2 Rhino's and a Razorback.
Some homebrew LotD captain with 4 wounds and masses of abilities incluing the ability to bring anyone he killed back as a LotD trooper - but a notable lack of invulnerability to Exterminator fire (cost 200 points)
2 full 10 man tactical squads, one with a Plasma gun and Plasma pistol and one with a Flamer
2 5 man LotD squads, one with a Melta and multi Melta and one with a Flamer and Heavy Flamer
a five man assault squad with Boltpistols (im not sure what else, they died in cannon fire before they could assault)
5 man tactical squad
Telion and about 8 scouts
A Vindicare assassin
Primarch Vulkan
Rhino
Rhino
Razorback

I had:
Darjeeling in her tank
another Battletank with Artificer hull, coaxial and pintle heavy stubbers, camo netting and armoured track guards
An Eradicator with Extra armour, artificer hull armoured track guards camo netting and a coaxial heavy stubber

2 Exterminators with pintle heavy stubbers and veteran crews

1 Thunderer with extra armour and a pintle heavy stubber

1 Deimos Laser Destroyer with a pintle heavy stubber and camo netting

CC squad with an MoO and MoF

2 veteran squads with Heavy Bolters and Forward Sentries

1 Veteran squad with Forward Sentries and a Melta

1 Veteran Squad with Forward Sentries and 2 Meltas

Lord Commissar

(The last three where hastily thrown in after seeing the special character)

End result: I won. All my squads - barring 5 from the double Melta squad - , my Thunderer and my Deimos where lost, one Battletank was immobilised by terrain and one by an unlucky Meltabomb attack. Everything he had, barring his Primarch was wiped. The Primarch was reduced to two wounds but IWND back to three.


End result:
I think he is starting to come round. Certainly there was less - actually none of the "IG tanks are OP" complaints. The game was fun and several times hinged on the balance such as when three troops assaulted a tank each (the captain, the surviving LotD sarge and a surviving Tactical Marine Sarge) only to whiff with the melta bombs and the captains sword only take two out of the three HP from the tank.
The only kicker was the primarch suddenly emerging from the wreck of the Razorback. I had not expected a Primarch.

Are you sure you were both playing 1.5k?

Off the top of my head, that marine list your opponent fielded is pushing 2k. Vulkan alone is ~450ish, plus the homebrew captain at 200, plus the vindis is already 1010.

feth it, I'll just add it all up.

Vulkan ~450ish
Libbies 450
Homebrew captain 200
2x 10-man Tacs + Rhinos 350
Scouts + Telion ~105
2x 5-man LotD 250
Razorback 55
Whatever the assassin costs

Total of ~1850 plus wargear and assassin.

If you were playing with 1500 points as the agreed upon value, you got fethed man. Do not play people like that. Don't even entertain the idea. Tell this person to stop cheating. Do not play him. Seriously.

I'm trusting your list was 1500pts without adding it all up.

*Edit* Forgot the assault squad. Easily puts him over 2k.

Seriously. Stop playing this guy. Sort him out or ignore him.

 darkcloak wrote:
Wow...

This is still going on?

I am hard up for a game, but I'd never play the OPs friend more than once!

Really though competitive rivalry is a good thing, but this doesn't sound like that at all. Sounds like this guy is taking advantage of your friendliness.

Maybe time to darkcloak him? And by that I mean tell him flat out you think he is being a douchebag.

I have run into a few players where after 1 game I decided there would not be a 2nd. one of them challenged me to a game at FLGS (RiP) in front of pretty much anyone, "Hey {TAK} want to play a game?" "No" followed by all the people around who knew I hated him, getting a good laugh.

Yeah...I had it around 2K without the Primarch (you also forgot the 3 vindicators and possibly the rhinos), and am extremely confused as to why the OP thinks his "friend" is starting to "come round" when it sounded as if he surprised him with the Primarch (at least that's what it sounded like from his description of what happened during the game).

It just sounds like an extremely disfunctional situation, but hey...they had fun that last game, who am I to judge?

Ah, you're right. In my haste I forgot to add in the vindis. Even more ridiculous then.

Thanks!

I just feel like there is a Slayer song that could sum up this whole situation...

Like watching a car crash.

 master of ordinance wrote:
I had not expected a Primarch.

Stop playing games with this guy where you just deploy some models and trust him to be honest about his list. You need to tell him to show you a printed copy of his army list, complete with points for every unit, before you put a single model on the table. And if he refuses he's continuing to be TFG and you should stop giving him more chances.

 master of ordinance wrote:
End result: I won. All my squads - barring 5 from the double Melta squad - , my Thunderer and my Deimos where lost, one Battletank was immobilised by terrain and one by an unlucky Meltabomb attack. Everything he had, barring his Primarch was wiped. The Primarch was reduced to two wounds but IWND back to three.


End result:
I think he is starting to come round. Certainly there was less - actually none of the "IG tanks are OP" complaints. The game was fun and several times hinged on the balance such as when three troops assaulted a tank each (the captain, the surviving LotD sarge and a surviving Tactical Marine Sarge) only to whiff with the melta bombs and the captains sword only take two out of the three HP from the tank.
The only kicker was the primarch suddenly emerging from the wreck of the Razorback. I had not expected a Primarch.

Assuming that your list was actually a 1500 pt list then he might have some real gaming deficiency. I mean, seriously his list was about 2500 pts if it really was the primarch Vulkan and not He'stan. How do you possibly manage to lose in that situation? I know that people react to this kind of stuff in different ways but at this point I'd really give this guy some sort of an ultimatum to play by the rules, show your army list beforehand, no surprise primarchs, no unkillable homebrew units or characters. I know that all of those things, house rulings, list imbalance in a certain scenario, special characters etc. can be completely fine. They just have to be agreed on in a friendly game. I just don't consider it all that friendly if you try to pull off stunts like you've mentioned here... I mean, The Emperor character you mentioned in your opening post at 270 pts? With sevens across the board and a lvl 4 psyker mastery with all the goodies 720 points would be a lot closer. If your opponent isn't happy to let you field an exact copy of their homebrew character right there, right now then there's something wrong.

This... This I find utterly repulsive. In my standard KDK army I utilize 4 tanks per game. To think that somewhere an imperial guard player has less tanks than me is saddening. He may be a good friend, but tell him to man up and that the world isn't all about him and your enjoyment matters too.

Blacksails wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Spoiler:

Okay, so this is how it went.
I rolled up and managed to persuade him to drop his homebrew assault squad of S and T 6 multi attack, rage, shred, soulblaze (I think), etc, etc squad on the premise that if they where on the table my Super Heavy would also be.

In total in a 1.5K game he had:
Librarian conclave - 5 level 2's in power armour.
three Vindicators in a squadron
2 Rhino's and a Razorback.
Some homebrew LotD captain with 4 wounds and masses of abilities incluing the ability to bring anyone he killed back as a LotD trooper - but a notable lack of invulnerability to Exterminator fire (cost 200 points)
2 full 10 man tactical squads, one with a Plasma gun and Plasma pistol and one with a Flamer
2 5 man LotD squads, one with a Melta and multi Melta and one with a Flamer and Heavy Flamer
a five man assault squad with Boltpistols (im not sure what else, they died in cannon fire before they could assault)
5 man tactical squad
Telion and about 8 scouts
A Vindicare assassin
Primarch Vulkan
Rhino
Rhino
Razorback

I had:
Darjeeling in her tank
another Battletank with Artificer hull, coaxial and pintle heavy stubbers, camo netting and armoured track guards
An Eradicator with Extra armour, artificer hull armoured track guards camo netting and a coaxial heavy stubber

2 Exterminators with pintle heavy stubbers and veteran crews

1 Thunderer with extra armour and a pintle heavy stubber

1 Deimos Laser Destroyer with a pintle heavy stubber and camo netting

CC squad with an MoO and MoF

2 veteran squads with Heavy Bolters and Forward Sentries

1 Veteran squad with Forward Sentries and a Melta

1 Veteran Squad with Forward Sentries and 2 Meltas

Lord Commissar

(The last three where hastily thrown in after seeing the special character)

End result: I won. All my squads - barring 5 from the double Melta squad - , my Thunderer and my Deimos where lost, one Battletank was immobilised by terrain and one by an unlucky Meltabomb attack. Everything he had, barring his Primarch was wiped. The Primarch was reduced to two wounds but IWND back to three.


End result:
I think he is starting to come round. Certainly there was less - actually none of the "IG tanks are OP" complaints. The game was fun and several times hinged on the balance such as when three troops assaulted a tank each (the captain, the surviving LotD sarge and a surviving Tactical Marine Sarge) only to whiff with the melta bombs and the captains sword only take two out of the three HP from the tank.
The only kicker was the primarch suddenly emerging from the wreck of the Razorback. I had not expected a Primarch.

Are you sure you were both playing 1.5k?

Off the top of my head, that marine list your opponent fielded is pushing 2k. Vulkan alone is ~450ish, plus the homebrew captain at 200, plus the vindis is already 1010.

feth it, I'll just add it all up.

Vulkan ~450ish
Libbies 450
Homebrew captain 200
2x 10-man Tacs + Rhinos 350
Scouts + Telion ~105
2x 5-man LotD 250
Razorback 55
Whatever the assassin costs

Total of ~1850 plus wargear and assassin.

If you were playing with 1500 points as the agreed upon value, you got fethed man. Do not play people like that. Don't even entertain the idea. Tell this person to stop cheating. Do not play him. Seriously.

I'm trusting your list was 1500pts without adding it all up.

*Edit* Forgot the assault squad. Easily puts him over 2k.

Seriously. Stop playing this guy. Sort him out or ignore him.

Thankyou for confirming this. I had thought there was something fishy when he started going on about how I didnt want to pop the razorback and what was in there was really nasty but when that entered the field I was sore pushed to believe it was within the points limit. That said, by this point all but one of the Vindicators where out of commission and the Primarchs escorting honour guard had ended up on the wrong side of my Tank Destroyer. One of the Tac squads was down to half strength and pinned behind the wreckage of its Rhino and the other was down to one man left alive. And the LotD flamer squad had vanished. And the Scouts had wound up on the wrong end of my Eradicator.

darkcloak wrote:Wow...

This is still going on?

I am hard up for a game, but I'd never play the OPs friend more than once!

Really though competitive rivalry is a good thing, but this doesn't sound like that at all. Sounds like this guy is taking advantage of your friendliness.

Maybe time to darkcloak him? And by that I mean tell him flat out you think he is being a douchebag.

There is an idea I have had, see the bottom of this post

Voidwraith wrote:Yeah...I had it around 2K without the Primarch (you also forgot the 3 vindicators and possibly the rhinos), and am extremely confused as to why the OP thinks his "friend" is starting to "come round" when it sounded as if he surprised him with the Primarch (at least that's what it sounded like from his description of what happened during the game).

It just sounds like an extremely disfunctional situation, but hey...they had fun that last game, who am I to judge?

Peregrine wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I had not expected a Primarch.

Stop playing games with this guy where you just deploy some models and trust him to be honest about his list. You need to tell him to show you a printed copy of his army list, complete with points for every unit, before you put a single model on the table. And if he refuses he's continuing to be TFG and you should stop giving him more chances.

Im going to have too it seems

Lammikkovalas wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
End result: I won. All my squads - barring 5 from the double Melta squad - , my Thunderer and my Deimos where lost, one Battletank was immobilised by terrain and one by an unlucky Meltabomb attack. Everything he had, barring his Primarch was wiped. The Primarch was reduced to two wounds but IWND back to three.


End result:
I think he is starting to come round. Certainly there was less - actually none of the "IG tanks are OP" complaints. The game was fun and several times hinged on the balance such as when three troops assaulted a tank each (the captain, the surviving LotD sarge and a surviving Tactical Marine Sarge) only to whiff with the melta bombs and the captains sword only take two out of the three HP from the tank.
The only kicker was the primarch suddenly emerging from the wreck of the Razorback. I had not expected a Primarch.

Assuming that your list was actually a 1500 pt list then he might have some real gaming deficiency. I mean, seriously his list was about 2500 pts if it really was the primarch Vulkan and not He'stan. How do you possibly manage to lose in that situation? I know that people react to this kind of stuff in different ways but at this point I'd really give this guy some sort of an ultimatum to play by the rules, show your army list beforehand, no surprise primarchs, no unkillable homebrew units or characters. I know that all of those things, house rulings, list imbalance in a certain scenario, special characters etc. can be completely fine. They just have to be agreed on in a friendly game. I just don't consider it all that friendly if you try to pull off stunts like you've mentioned here... I mean, The Emperor character you mentioned in your opening post at 270 pts? With sevens across the board and a lvl 4 psyker mastery with all the goodies 720 points would be a lot closer. If your opponent isn't happy to let you field an exact copy of their homebrew character right there, right now then there's something wrong.

It was most definitely Vulkan, the model and the stats. My army was originally 1.5K but after seeing that character and looking at the stats I added in the bottom two sections and the LC as it was massively under priced. Still only took me to around 1750 though.
The reason I won is, I believe, down to tactics. I used to be a Space Marine player in 5th and I learned the strengths and weaknesses then. After that I took up Imperial Guard but I lacked tanks or the money to get them. From here I adapted historical tank hunting techniques as used in WW2 to destroy enemy tank heavy lists, hiding my Infantry and luring the enemy vehicles closer until they were within Melta range. Fromhere I also developed countermeasures and when I first acquired tanks (an Exterminator and a Thunderer converted from a totalled Rhino chassis) I used my knowledge of these, along with my studies of actual WW2 combined armed tactics to use them to great effect.

Fast forward a couple of years and I can pretty much hold my own against Space Marines performing a disordered assault.
Well, that is pretty much what it was. There was one Rhino coming up the left centre of the board, on in the centre, the Vindicators coming up the right with the Razorback containing Vulkan hitting me from the far right. Stopping it was pretty simple, and for some reason he chose not to run his Assault Marines for cover despite having them out in the open, instead he chose to rely on the fact that Nightfighting was in effect and hope I did not illuminate them (Spoiler, I illuminated them with a Battletank) and the LotD.... Well one ate two sections and an entire tank's worth of firepower and the other assaulted my CCS and ended up stuck there for over four game turns as my Warmington on sea first section refused to give any ground, with Captain Mainwering personally duelling the Sargent for three turns.

Oh, I forgot to mention the Devestators. There where also 5 devestators, a Sarge and four marines with Missile Launchers. I forgot about them earlier as they did almost nothing besides stun my Destroyer once before the combined wrath of one of my Battletank's and the MOO's bombardment finished them.

Anyway, He has agreed to play a 6th ed bunker assault but has said he will be bringing an unbound army and has told me I am limited to three tanks in a 2K game. I have told him (and he has not replied yet) that ou can not limit the heavy tanks in the Imperial Guard army.
If he complains I will tell him that if he wants to play against none tank armies he should challenge someone else. There is a Space Wolf player whom is always up for a game and there is also a Grey Knight player whom I know who playes a GK list allied with DA and uses the DA to set up a teleportation network around the battlefield, allowing his units to rapidly reposition.
Of these the former only uses a couple of tanks and the latter uses none. Think they will be suitable?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Thankyou for confirming this. I had thought there was something fishy when he started going on about how I didnt want to pop the razorback and what was in there was really nasty but when that entered the field I was sore pushed to believe it was within the points limit. That said, by this point all but one of the Vindicators where out of commission and the Primarchs escorting honour guard had ended up on the wrong side of my Tank Destroyer. One of the Tac squads was down to half strength and pinned behind the wreckage of its Rhino and the other was down to one man left alive. And the LotD flamer squad had vanished. And the Scouts had wound up on the wrong end of my Eradicator.

Look, its pretty commendable (or sad on his end, combo of both perhaps) that you managed a win despite his blatant cheating, but I really don't see why you didn't check his list, or just flat out deny him the game.

I suppose if you're having fun then go for it, but someone who cheats probably isn't enjoyable to be around during the game either. I just don't see what you're getting out of this other than some misplaced pride (which should be satisfied now anyways after the win).

Oh, I forgot to mention the Devestators. There where also 5 devestators, a Sarge and four marines with Missile Launchers. I forgot about them earlier as they did almost nothing besides stun my Destroyer once before the combined wrath of one of my Battletank's and the MOO's bombardment finished them.

Absolutely absurd. He's literally playing you with a 1000 extra points. Unless you agreed to such a lopsided game and both had copies of the army lists with all point values clear and added correctly, stop playing this cheating filth.

Do it for everyone else that may ever have to play him. Someone needs to sort out this donkey-cave.

Anyway, He has agreed to play a 6th ed bunker assault but has said he will be bringing an unbound army and has told me I am limited to three tanks in a 2K game. I have told him (and he has not replied yet) that ou can not limit the heavy tanks in the Imperial Guard army.

The real question is...

Why are you still wanting to play him!? Especially after the last game where he brought nearly 1000 extra points, and keeps trying to impose rules on you.

Just move on man. You'll be happier, trust me.

If he complains I will tell him that if he wants to play against none tank armies he should challenge someone else. There is a Space Wolf player whom is always up for a game and there is also a Grey Knight player whom I know who playes a GK list allied with DA and uses the DA to set up a teleportation network around the battlefield, allowing his units to rapidly reposition.
Of these the former only uses a couple of tanks and the latter uses none. Think they will be suitable?

No one is suitable to play him because he's not suitable to play anyone. Don't let anyone play him until its explained to him that he's a cheating filty liar and an donkey-cave for imposing restrictions on other players while bringing home made nonsense himself. People like this will continue to cheat and act terribly until someone stands up to them and tells them the consequences and follow through.

Completely unnacceptable behaviour.

Ah, these topics of abusive behavior always is interesting.
Hard to understand what makes these people tick.

First, read this and understand there IS a problem:
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/guys-here-are-16-warning-signs-youre-in-an-abusive-friendship-hesaid/

Next understanding the freakish animal that is a narcissist:
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.ca/search/label/How%20to%20Spot%20a%20Narcissist Pretty in-depth.

I had a parent like this, no time in my life for people of this nature, it will cost you far more than it is worth.
Cut ties, it will only get better so they can be allowed to get worse.

I hate to say this.... but your friend sounds like he is a cheater and a liar who's ego is too big for him to handle losing in a fair battle.

Also somehow he is so inept at the game ( or you might be one of the most impressive players in the world)
that he can't beat an 1500pt army with 2500pts of illegally taken, broken units.

I recommend that you don't play with this person again, and that you tell him that you don't enjoy being treated wrongly. You might also want to make an analysis of how he treats you in other areas of your life. If he acts like this over a game then he very likely acts similarly about everyday things, and it could actually be HARMFUL for you to be friends with him.

Talizvar wrote:Ah, these topics of abusive behavior always is interesting.
Hard to understand what makes these people tick.

First, read this and understand there IS a problem:
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/guys-here-are-16-warning-signs-youre-in-an-abusive-friendship-hesaid/

Next understanding the freakish animal that is a narcissist:
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.ca/search/label/How%20to%20Spot%20a%20Narcissist Pretty in-depth.

I had a parent like this, no time in my life for people of this nature, it will cost you far more than it is worth.
Cut ties, it will only get better so they can be allowed to get worse.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:I hate to say this.... but your friend sounds like he is a cheater and a liar who's ego is too big for him to handle losing in a fair battle.

Also somehow he is so inept at the game ( or you might be one of the most impressive players in the world)
that he can't beat an 1500pt army with 2500pts of illegally taken, broken units.

I recommend that you don't play with this person again, and that you tell him that you don't enjoy being treated wrongly. You might also want to make an analysis of how he treats you in other areas of your life. If he acts like this over a game then he very likely acts similarly about everyday things, and it could actually be HARMFUL for you to be friends with him.

Nah, he is a great person outside of the game. Its just in the game.

I'd then recommend going for a pint, and calmly explaining you won't be playing him until he sorts out his gaming persona.