So Top tier would be something like Craftworld Eldar/Necrons
Upper Middle would be something along the lines of Space Marines/Tau
Lower middle would be Blood Angels
Bottom Tier would be Tyrnids/CSM.
Wyzilla wrote: Considering that IIRC they swept several tournaments, I'd rate them above CSM and Tyranids. Although, everything is above C:CSM by default.
Ghaz... why do you think your codex is weak. .. are you just trying to justify getting a new army? Seriously competitive orc builds are ridiculous just gotta look past what every one says
Thyhadras wrote: Ghaz... why do you think your codex is weak. .. are you just trying to justify getting a new army? Seriously competitive orc builds are ridiculous just gotta look past what every one says
Im not going to take anything you say seriously thyhadras, especially about my army when you can't even spell its name correctly. As I pointed out before its ORK not ORC. Orc is JRR Tolkien ffs
Wyzilla wrote: Considering that IIRC they swept several tournaments, I'd rate them above CSM and Tyranids. Although, everything is above C:CSM by default.
where was this?
During the Eldar release. Ork lists wiped out the Eldar and won the game. They aren't weak, people just don't know how to play them well or have really, really gakky rolls.
Wyzilla wrote: Considering that IIRC they swept several tournaments, I'd rate them above CSM and Tyranids. Although, everything is above C:CSM by default.
where was this?
During the Eldar release. Ork lists wiped out the Eldar and won the game. They aren't weak, people just don't know how to play them well or have really, really gakky rolls.
That was a single tourny and it was the same week or within 2 weeks of the Eldar release. Don't get me wrong the FW Biker army is good, and the green tide can be useful against low model count armies but thats about it.
I am sorry and am done with you. .. cry that your codex sucks when it seems that you are too stuck to learn how to adapt to play it in the new edition. .. just know that there are numerous ork players who have great success. .. also auto correct changes it. .. my only goal was to help you see how you could make your army better but instead I am just fine knowing you will lose most games you play and will simply cry about it being your sub par rules...
I will just go about finishing my chapter of marines and enjoying the game and attempting to help people who are willing to be helped
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ghaz after your last post I an going to have to assume you are a plant to convince people not to play orks. .. seriously now the green tide is good against low model count armies only. ....
Anyway, Orks have their good stuff but they aren't a competitive army. They don't need to be. Their best units and Formations aren't going to compete against Scatbike Spam or Pentyrant (which makes me wonder how you think Tyranids are bottom tier but whatever), but Orks have things like Lootas and Tank Bustas to really lay down their own fire and deal damage in a more relaxed meta.
Orks are in a pretty weird spot. Being numerous and naturally melee-inclined makes them very good against the typical tournament decurion. (Rec legion-harvest-D cult.) That build is nutso durable against everyone else, but orks have the right combo of numbers and melee strength to occupy the canoptek units while others go sweep the warriors, destroyers, and immortals. Also to crons, a trukk may as well be a leman Russ for all the good armor does in the matchup, so the trukks are great value against them. You aren't paying for armor that just gets ignored.
They fight pretty well against most battle companies, being able to match the number of units most of them bring, which is one of the battleco's best strengths in objective based tournies like ITC. (Mine performs quite a bit better against orks since I go crazy with number of units and end up with tons of anti-infantry firepower.)
I've never seen an ork v. War convo match, so I can't comment there.
Flyrant spam is kind of a coin flip. I've seen lootas and bustas knock out a couple on t1 and the orks win massively, and I've seen them whiff and lose.
The other few top table lists like the 50 flavors of eldar tend to knock them out, but really, no army lacks bad matchups. What puts them in a weird spot is that even though they can go toe to toe with several top table lists, a bunch of mid table lists can wreck them, weird as it is.
With that in mind it's hard to call where I'd throw them in tournament strength. Definitely above BA, AM, and chaos marines. Even though the orks might lose directly to a list from one of those, they don't have a leg to stand on if they find themselves staring at the top table lists that orks can handle like decurions and such.
Same level as tau, Nids, daemons. Ie: one or two competitive level builds that feature just them and useful as supplemental allies.
Top tier is SM, Eldar: Multiple Competitive builds.
Middle tier (one core competitive list with variation): Mechanicus Tau Grey Knights Tyranids Daemons Orks Necrons dark angels Space Wolves
Low Tier (no lists that center around them, only supplemental): blood angels, guard, dark Eldar, harlequins, knights, assassins, inquisition, chaos marines, Khorne Daemonkin
Orks are in and solidly better than most middle tier armies, in that they have one core list (green tide) but with more variation than most mid tier armies, like tau or yes, Necrons, do.
That is the reality of the competitive scene at the moment. I know everyone likes to believe orks are useless but that is simply not reality.
vipoid wrote: Are there specific ork builds that tend to be very competitive?
There are two. Green tide-based lists is one, Bully Boyz+Blitz Brigade is another. Both of those are extremely competitive and give you freedom to go a lot of different places with them.
I like to think of orks as gatekeepers these days. They do decent but not good enough to get top marks. And any decent army has to pass the test of the orks. They can be a decent hard counter to competitive builds.
the_scotsman wrote: Same level as tau, Nids, daemons. Ie: one or two competitive level builds that feature just them and useful as supplemental allies.
Top tier is SM, Eldar: Multiple Competitive builds.
Middle tier (one core competitive list with variation): Mechanicus Tau Grey Knights Tyranids Daemons Orks Necrons dark angels Space Wolves
Low Tier (no lists that center around them, only supplemental): blood angels, guard, dark Eldar, harlequins, knights, assassins, inquisition, chaos marines, Khorne Daemonkin
Orks are in and solidly better than most middle tier armies, in that they have one core list (green tide) but with more variation than most mid tier armies, like tau or yes, Necrons, do.
That is the reality of the competitive scene at the moment. I know everyone likes to believe orks are useless but that is simply not reality.
Necrons only middle tier? Uh, nah bro. This list is messed up in a few ways.
On topic, Orks are like Tyranids. In a casual setting, most of their stuff is meh and other armies can do it better, or at least just as good. In a competitive setting, they can be devastating, but only because they have 1-2 builds that really work, and that's it. You utilize maybe 1/8th of the codex.
They perform well in tournament, against specific type of army. In casual game, when you play against player that doenst rock whatever flavour of the month list, I always found them a bit underwhelming.
I voted Lower Mid.
Wyzilla wrote: Considering that IIRC they swept several tournaments, I'd rate them above CSM and Tyranids. Although, everything is above C:CSM by default.
where was this?
During the Eldar release. Ork lists wiped out the Eldar and won the game. They aren't weak, people just don't know how to play them well or have really, really gakky rolls.
What a great example to give. And I know just which one your talking about too! One of the only ones left that majirly scores painting by yourself only allowed, actually uses voted army composition, and highly values points for sportsmanship! Who could have guessed?
the_scotsman wrote: Same level as tau, Nids, daemons. Ie: one or two competitive level builds that feature just them and useful as supplemental allies.
Top tier is SM, Eldar: Multiple Competitive builds.
Middle tier (one core competitive list with variation): Mechanicus Tau Grey Knights Tyranids Daemons Orks Necrons dark angels Space Wolves
Low Tier (no lists that center around them, only supplemental): blood angels, guard, dark Eldar, harlequins, knights, assassins, inquisition, chaos marines, Khorne Daemonkin
Orks are in and solidly better than most middle tier armies, in that they have one core list (green tide) but with more variation than most mid tier armies, like tau or yes, Necrons, do.
That is the reality of the competitive scene at the moment. I know everyone likes to believe orks are useless but that is simply not reality.
Necrons only middle tier? Uh, nah bro. This list is messed up in a few ways.
On topic, Orks are like Tyranids. In a casual setting, most of their stuff is meh and other armies can do it better, or at least just as good. In a competitive setting, they can be devastating, but only because they have 1-2 builds that really work, and that's it. You utilize maybe 1/8th of the codex.
I was ranking the armies based on how many separate builds they have that can really work on a top competitive level. (I mean cores to the build as most competitive builds will have around 1000ish points where you basically make no decisions then you can play around).
Orks have two. Green tide, big Bosspole Warboss, CAD with Dok, and Bully Boyz+Blitz Brigade. Beyond that there are a few wild cards like Stompa/Squiggoth builds, Trukk spam etc but you see mostly green tide in top tables.
Necrons have decurion backed up by a Deathstar. That's roughly the same amount or less variation.
In terms of "power" it's hard to rank due to how different the formats are for each big tournament. In wild Wild West 40k, the power of Eldar is increased but the power of Space Marines are lessened. There are no high level tourneys that allow stuff like unlimited detachments or unbound so who knows.
At any level it's clear they're near or at the top of the predecurion dexes, and they have solid answers to many post decurion builds.
i have played nearly every combination of Ork armies and all of them tend to do ok. I even did an entire army with only flamers (minus 2 units of grots) and i almost won.
I think Orks are solidly upper middle tier. The big thing is that Orks, unlike many armies, have so many variable builds that its hard to really pinpoint them down compared to more one-dimensional armies like Imperial Guard or CSM. If Orks are good at one thing, its saturating the table with threats that force the opponent to actually think on what to shoot and often psychologically feths them over when more things get across then they planned. We have MANZ missiles, we have Snikrot's Kommandos, we have roving deffkoptas and a high chance of mass infiltrating with the finkin' cap, the battlewagon blitz brigade in particular forces the opponent to deal with all the threats in his face at once. Orks can certainly gang up on enemy units the best and I think it fits the army entirely as Orks are not known for their individual prowess but their ability to bully their lessers into submission through numbers both in shooting and assaulting.
It was a tough call between upper and lower mid, but I went for lower in the end. If Eldar, Space Marines and Daemons are top tier then that would put Necrons and Knights at the bottom of top tier and Tau/Tyranids in upper-mid (Pentyrant is actually a top-tier build, but the codex is bottom-tier with any other build so...). That would put all the non-vanilla marines, Deldar, orks and Sisters in lower-mid and CSM and Imperial Guard in bottom-tier. That's a pretty accurate tiering, imo.
The thing about Orks is that they're basically counter-meta. Green Tide+ Void-shield generators throws a wrench in most of high-meta builds, but it isn't strong enough to actually let ork players take GT's. So they're a fairly decent knock-out faction, but that's about it.
One problem is that they do CC better than most armies out there and yet are the only army that actually cares about Fear.
Still, there are some good builds out there, so it's not completely trash. I'd say lower-mid, but only because they aren't consistent enough to be upper-mid and you've left out a mid-tier option.
BlaxicanX wrote: The thing about Orks is that they're basically counter-meta. Green Tide+ Void-shield generators throws a wrench in most of high-meta builds, but it isn't strong enough to actually let ork players take GT's. So they're a fairly decent knock-out faction, but that's about it.
So in other words, Orks have the fluffiest performance on the field. They're tough and numerous enough to feth up everyone else's plans, but too uncoordinated and random to really take everything over.
Before the Age of Decurion (aka before taking the brakes off the "OP rules to sell models" train) Orks where a solid mid tier army along with most of the armies. Now they are slipping down into lower mid tier as they don't have enough free power to keep up with everything the 2015 releases have gotten. Still the most fun army to play as/against which makes them the best Codex for making a fun game.
I want Zogwort, Wazdakka (even though i never fielded him) and old Cybork back. That is my number 1 complaint, no melee Invuln save, i still cant figure out what they where thinking.
As for Zogwort, i get it, turning ICs to squigs was "OP" but it was also hilarious. Zogworts record with me is, several captains (including a few named characters), multiple Necron Overlords, a Tau Battlesuit commander, and more Commissars than i care to remember. For the record noone got angry when this happened, they just got a look of "That just happened" and then we'd laugh about a squig in SM armor/Necrom Metal/ or Mecha Squig (battlesuit).
I'd say Orks are bottom mid. They can be honestly a powerhouse, but if you want that power youre really going to be stuck with only a handful of options. I have units besides tankbustas and grot guns you know GW?
I really hate the fact we were the first codex out the gate. I really do. It feels like being first inline for free comicbook day and you get an issue of 'Howard the Duck' and then everyone after you keeps getting better and better books till the 5th guy inline is getting a signed Jack Kirby 'X-Men'.
they have their own special spot in the rankings, they seem to have a knack for being able to take down big lists..they just take a little more finess as they don't have crazy formations or anything
Actually, I can ignore anything not in the BA codex when rating the BA codex. Funny that. Just because Codex Skitarri is good doesn't make BA good just because they can ally them in. I'm talking about BA, not the IoM.
Martel732 wrote: Actually, I can ignore anything not in the BA codex when rating the BA codex. Funny that. Just because Codex Skitarri is good doesn't make BA good just because they can ally them in. I'm talking about BA, not the IoM.
Are allies in the rulebook? Yes. Therefore they are legal to use and should be considered when evaluating their competitiveness.
Martel732 wrote: Actually, I can ignore anything not in the BA codex when rating the BA codex. Funny that. Just because Codex Skitarri is good doesn't make BA good just because they can ally them in. I'm talking about BA, not the IoM.
Are allies in the rulebook? Yes. Therefore they are legal to use and should be considered when evaluating their competitiveness.
Nope. Not when evaluating C:BA. The good units are not in that codex. The real question is why anyone would voluntarily even bother with C:BA in the first place. I can get all the units you describe without touching C:BA. Allying in grav cents just shows that the vanilla codex is good, it does not make C:BA good. Especially since vanilla marines would be strictly better off not messing around with BA units at all.
Not to distract too much from the point of the post... but why are Tyranids bottom tier?
They have the Flying Hive Tyrant, they can put tons more fliers in the sky, they have some great units like Biovores and Exocrines and Hive Guard...
My Orks always have a really hard time beating them.
I can understand Space Marines might just chomp them alive by spamming grav weapons? But really are Tyranids THAT weak? They seem pretty dang strong to me.
Murrdox wrote: Not to distract too much from the point of the post... but why are Tyranids bottom tier?
They have the Flying Hive Tyrant, they can put tons more fliers in the sky, they have some great units like Biovores and Exocrines and Hive Guard...
My Orks always have a really hard time beating them.
I can understand Space Marines might just chomp them alive by spamming grav weapons? But really are Tyranids THAT weak? They seem pretty dang strong to me.
Tyranids are in a weird place. They have one very strong build and then a bunch of builds that get mowed down like practice dummies by 7th ed firepower.
I rate Orks Mid to top tier because as an ork player ONLY certain builds give me issues ..IG artillery is my worst night mare..everything else can be beat ..eldar and necrons are fun to play against (50/50 win or lose) others are less fun just to easy to win against ..skitarii and adeptus mechanicus are unkown to me atm ..no clue how they hold up as have not faced them with a solid player using them yet.
morfydd wrote: I rate Orks Mid to top tier because as an ork player ONLY certain builds give me issues ..IG artillery is my worst night mare..everything else can be beat ..eldar and necrons are fun to play against (50/50 win or lose) others are less fun just to easy to win against ..skitarii and adeptus mechanicus are unkown to me atm ..no clue how they hold up as have not faced them with a solid player using them yet.
So after a day of voting about 83% of the players believe that the Ork Codex is lower mid to bottom tier codex while 14% think its upper mid tier and lastly, 4 individuals or 3% think that the Ork Codex is top tier.
So with that in mind is their any chance we can now stop having the handful of people yelling and screaming at people talking of ways to improve the Ork Codex? Every single thread I have read about changing the Ork codex has 1-3 individuals who run in and immediately yell that the Orks are OP and if you can't win every game with them then L2P.
Orks have similar problems to BA in that they want to assault in 7th ed. Any proposed changes that give assault a chance to work is going to be met with a lot of resistance.
Ghazkuul wrote: So after a day of voting about 83% of the players believe that the Ork Codex is lower mid to bottom tier codex while 14% think its upper mid tier and lastly, 4 individuals or 3% think that the Ork Codex is top tier.
So with that in mind is their any chance we can now stop having the handful of people yelling and screaming at people talking of ways to improve the Ork Codex? Every single thread I have read about changing the Ork codex has 1-3 individuals who run in and immediately yell that the Orks are OP and if you can't win every game with them then L2P.
how about it folks?
I find that the whole "screaming and yelling" only occurs (with only a select few members) when the premise of the thread implies that the Ork codex is garbage rather than something that requires some fine tuning and tweaking. Orks are certainly not OP, but some of the suggestions on changing them that makes other Ork players like me miffed is the suggestion to be put on the same level as Necrons/Eldar with ridiculous claims on how much Ork Boyz suck and how all the changes with the recent codex is seen as awful. I don't think people remember how our 4th ed. dex, although it aged quite gracefully compared to many other dexes, was on its last legs by the time 6th ed. ended. Our KFF was ignored by an increasing amount of weapons, and short of boyz in battlewagonz and lootas there was few units left that were able to trudge through the tide of eldar and tau at the time. The new dex, although it has its flaws, has revitalized our codex in allowing several units to shine again. Warbikers are the clearest example and green tide was given new life with the formation. Even Dred Mob was brought back a bit with the newer formation and although its not a top-tier build its a great way to saturate the field with ork walkers beyond what we could do previously outside of unbound. Tankbustas became usable and reliable with the old glory hogs gone. The Blitza Bomma could actually do something, deffkoptas gained that much more traction in their cheaper price point for weapons and with the changes to objective grabbing with Maelstrom of War. We gained better big gunz. Widespread access to painboyz gave us a way to make boyz units survive the fusillade of dakka that is out there nowadays and mitigate mob rule. WAAAGH! and 'Ere We Go! revamped our ability to charge. Overall short of a few hiccups and issues (didn't fix the issue with Nobz and the unnecessary change to cybork bodies, overpricing the new nauts and killa kanz, weird stuff like Zagstruk and Badrukk being HQ) it gave Orks a new lease on life. It really just needs a clean up rather than the super buff that people think they need and I'd rather not become the next hated army to face. Orks can put enough fight out as is, wouldn't you prefer an army that makes you think how to synergize units rather than faceroll in no-brainer formations like the Decurion?
Also given that this is a forum, where free speech and voicing opinions (within reason) is allowed, I don't think the backlash against a good deal of your threads are going to stop anytime soon.
Martel732 wrote: Everyone wants to be Necrons/Eldar so they have a chance of beating Necrons/Eldar.
I wouldn't say everyone, and as an Ork player I have some measure of consideration for my opponent's enjoyment when playing the game. I laugh as much as my opponent when my boyz bonk each other on the head or when I roll double 1's for my Shokk Attack Gun. Necron RP are about as interactive as punching a brick wall. Although it'll never happen (cause da $$$), I still think its better to tone down OP things than try to raise everyone else to that level, it only highlights the issues of the armies "no-brainers" even moreso than fixing it (do you see any foot eldar lists going around? I just see people playing primarily with jetbikes and wraithknights). Even then some other faction's "OPness" will be better than another's. Look at Dark Angels right now. Ravenwing is seen as the only the good "competitive" build.
Martel732 wrote: Everyone wants to be Necrons/Eldar so they have a chance of beating Necrons/Eldar.
I wouldn't say everyone, and as an Ork player I have some measure of consideration for my opponent's enjoyment when playing the game. I laugh as much as my opponent when my boyz bonk each other on the head or when I roll double 1's for my Shokk Attack Gun. Necron RP are about as interactive as punching a brick wall. Although it'll never happen (cause da $$$), I still think its better to tone down OP things than try to raise everyone else to that level, it only highlights the issues of the armies "no-brainers" even moreso than fixing it (do you see any foot eldar lists going around? I just see people playing primarily with jetbikes and wraithknights). Even then some other faction's "OPness" will be better than another's. Look at Dark Angels right now. Ravenwing is seen as the only the good "competitive" build.
actually Yes, I have seen a fair amount of Footdar lists, and they kicked the crap out of who they were playing. Why? because even footdar got stupid huge buffs and now its harder to play against the "garbage" eldar units then ever before. So since the current trend is to buff every single unit in the game then why shouldn't every codex receive that treatment. And you can go on about how its better to tone things down but since that won't happen because GW made money off the Eldar/Necron model I don't see it as being useful.
Martel732 wrote: Everyone wants to be Necrons/Eldar so they have a chance of beating Necrons/Eldar.
I wouldn't say everyone, and as an Ork player I have some measure of consideration for my opponent's enjoyment when playing the game. I laugh as much as my opponent when my boyz bonk each other on the head or when I roll double 1's for my Shokk Attack Gun. Necron RP are about as interactive as punching a brick wall. Although it'll never happen (cause da $$$), I still think its better to tone down OP things than try to raise everyone else to that level, it only highlights the issues of the armies "no-brainers" even moreso than fixing it (do you see any foot eldar lists going around? I just see people playing primarily with jetbikes and wraithknights). Even then some other faction's "OPness" will be better than another's. Look at Dark Angels right now. Ravenwing is seen as the only the good "competitive" build.
actually Yes, I have seen a fair amount of Footdar lists, and they kicked the crap out of who they were playing. Why? because even footdar got stupid huge buffs and now its harder to play against the "garbage" eldar units then ever before. So since the current trend is to buff every single unit in the game then why shouldn't every codex receive that treatment. And you can go on about how its better to tone things down but since that won't happen because GW made money off the Eldar/Necron model I don't see it as being useful.
Then let me ask you this. If another Ork codex comes in and they stay roughly the same in terms of tier (i.e. behind Eldar/Necrons), would you still bother playing Orks? Do you still have fun playing with them currently? I understand the desire for a better-written book but the desire for effective "OP"ness makes it seem as if though you care more about gaining access to an easier way of winning, rather than the army itself getting fixed up on its certain hang-ups and figuring out how to work past its weaknesses.
Martel732 wrote: Everyone wants to be Necrons/Eldar so they have a chance of beating Necrons/Eldar.
I wouldn't say everyone, and as an Ork player I have some measure of consideration for my opponent's enjoyment when playing the game. I laugh as much as my opponent when my boyz bonk each other on the head or when I roll double 1's for my Shokk Attack Gun. Necron RP are about as interactive as punching a brick wall. Although it'll never happen (cause da $$$), I still think its better to tone down OP things than try to raise everyone else to that level, it only highlights the issues of the armies "no-brainers" even moreso than fixing it (do you see any foot eldar lists going around? I just see people playing primarily with jetbikes and wraithknights). Even then some other faction's "OPness" will be better than another's. Look at Dark Angels right now. Ravenwing is seen as the only the good "competitive" build.
actually Yes, I have seen a fair amount of Footdar lists, and they kicked the crap out of who they were playing. Why? because even footdar got stupid huge buffs and now its harder to play against the "garbage" eldar units then ever before. So since the current trend is to buff every single unit in the game then why shouldn't every codex receive that treatment. And you can go on about how its better to tone things down but since that won't happen because GW made money off the Eldar/Necron model I don't see it as being useful.
Then let me ask you this. If another Ork codex comes in and they stay roughly the same in terms of tier (i.e. behind Eldar/Necrons), would you still bother playing Orks? Do you still have fun playing with them currently? I understand the desire for a better-written book but the desire for effective "OP"ness makes it seem as if though you care more about gaining access to an easier way of winning, rather than the army itself getting fixed up on its certain hang-ups and figuring out how to work past its weaknesses.
Yes, I love my Orks, I spent so much time collecting, fixing and painting them and I love how they look. I love playing my orks and everything about them. What I hate is that I go to play a game and unless im playing against 2 or so other Codex's which are just as weak I know that I am immediately at a disadvantage. I was super excited by the idea of a new codex, I thought they would fix a lot of the problems with our 4th edition codex. Instead they made it worse. Warbikers got a bit better, but to make up for it they made Nob bikers useless. They ruined so much of the old codex that the new one is a completely new entity with 2-3 units that are worth a damn.
I don't want an easy mode button like the Eldar have, What I want though is to have my units not roll over and die to a stiff breeze.
Martel732 wrote: Everyone wants to be Necrons/Eldar so they have a chance of beating Necrons/Eldar.
I wouldn't say everyone, and as an Ork player I have some measure of consideration for my opponent's enjoyment when playing the game. I laugh as much as my opponent when my boyz bonk each other on the head or when I roll double 1's for my Shokk Attack Gun. Necron RP are about as interactive as punching a brick wall. Although it'll never happen (cause da $$$), I still think its better to tone down OP things than try to raise everyone else to that level, it only highlights the issues of the armies "no-brainers" even moreso than fixing it (do you see any foot eldar lists going around? I just see people playing primarily with jetbikes and wraithknights). Even then some other faction's "OPness" will be better than another's. Look at Dark Angels right now. Ravenwing is seen as the only the good "competitive" build.
actually Yes, I have seen a fair amount of Footdar lists, and they kicked the crap out of who they were playing. Why? because even footdar got stupid huge buffs and now its harder to play against the "garbage" eldar units then ever before. So since the current trend is to buff every single unit in the game then why shouldn't every codex receive that treatment. And you can go on about how its better to tone things down but since that won't happen because GW made money off the Eldar/Necron model I don't see it as being useful.
Then let me ask you this. If another Ork codex comes in and they stay roughly the same in terms of tier (i.e. behind Eldar/Necrons), would you still bother playing Orks? Do you still have fun playing with them currently? I understand the desire for a better-written book but the desire for effective "OP"ness makes it seem as if though you care more about gaining access to an easier way of winning, rather than the army itself getting fixed up on its certain hang-ups and figuring out how to work past its weaknesses.
Yes, I love my Orks, I spent so much time collecting, fixing and painting them and I love how they look. I love playing my orks and everything about them. What I hate is that I go to play a game and unless im playing against 2 or so other Codex's which are just as weak I know that I am immediately at a disadvantage. I was super excited by the idea of a new codex, I thought they would fix a lot of the problems with our 4th edition codex. Instead they made it worse. Warbikers got a bit better, but to make up for it they made Nob bikers useless. They ruined so much of the old codex that the new one is a completely new entity with 2-3 units that are worth a damn.
I don't want an easy mode button like the Eldar have, What I want though is to have my units not roll over and die to a stiff breeze.
Fair enough, though I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on how bad the current one is. Either way I'm looking forward to a better codex, just one I hope not nearly as overdone as Necrons or Eldar.
Orks are very good as is once you learn how to play the game, plain and simple.
I don't understand what lists or tactics people are using, but I can't think of a bad matchup for a solid built list. Any Yes, Bullyboys and Greentide are very good, but even using just the codex they are very powerful if built and played correctly.
I think most of the problems people seem to have stem from thinking "ORKS ARE GOOD AT ASSAULT, SO I NEED TO BE THERE ASAP AT ALL COSTS" which just isn't true anymore.
Btothefnrock wrote: Orks are very good as is once you learn how to play the game, plain and simple.
I don't understand what lists or tactics people are using, but I can't think of a bad matchup for a solid built list. Any Yes, Bullyboys and Greentide are very good, but even using just the codex they are very powerful if built and played correctly.
I think most of the problems people seem to have stem from thinking "ORKS ARE GOOD AT ASSAULT, SO I NEED TO BE THERE ASAP AT ALL COSTS" which just isn't true anymore.
Dude i run pure Shoota boys, and i get wrecked with this new dex. My KFF doesnt cover me properly anymore and i dont have an Invuln in melee, which is super important. Oh and i run like 30 Lootas, so not a ton of Assault here and i cant run the Grotsnik bomb anymore.
Ghazkuul wrote: So after a day of voting about 83% of the players believe that the Ork Codex is lower mid to bottom tier codex while 14% think its upper mid tier and lastly, 4 individuals or 3% think that the Ork Codex is top tier.
So with that in mind is their any chance we can now stop having the handful of people yelling and screaming at people talking of ways to improve the Ork Codex? Every single thread I have read about changing the Ork codex has 1-3 individuals who run in and immediately yell that the Orks are OP and if you can't win every game with them then L2P.
how about it folks?
There will always be people who make outrageous claims because they don't understand anecdotal evidence. "My Tau list consists of nothing but kroot units and Aun'shi... and I'm undefeated in my FLGS! Kroot are OP!"
Aggregate data is the only empirical evidence worth anything in discussions like these because a large enough sample size will account for anomalies like... the other players in your group being gak, for example. Or you just being a genius.
Thus, the importance of aggregate tournament results. Though with the amount of heavy house-ruling that's been going on at most GT's since the advent of 7th, even tournament results aren't very reliable anymore.
varies on what kind of environment we are in and what kind of player you are, if your a super cheesy tournament runner than no. the ork codex is grade A awful argueably the worst codex currently available (omitting the militarium tempestus codex cause.. tempestus). the orks are in serious need of an overhaul if they want to put in work there.
if your a casual shmuck who plays with other casual shmucks on his weekends at the flgs with some rather random armies then you can roll some less than stellar lists that will do okay. if i had to put a number on how many times youd win it would probably be statistically 38/100 matches which isnt that bad when you consider the fact thae the norm for an army that needs a pick me up badly right is something like 41-43/100 like the dark eldar or the sisters of battle.
orks biggest problem is that so many things need to get reworked to be more practical. the codex is litered with impractical thinking on the part of the rules writers, and the supplement is an impracticality unto itself. everytime you read a rule, a unit datasheet, a formation explanation all you think it "this is impractical" and your forced to reach around anf fish out the units that are the least impractical and make an army from it. it makes me think their codex was a hardcore out the door rush job, its a good framework but a lot of essential components are missing to a good codex. i feel that if they get a codex update before a new BRB edition comes out the book will be considerably better and will probably rival the current marine codex or the current dark angels codex in terms of functionality and usefulness
Btothefnrock wrote: Orks are very good as is once you learn how to play the game, plain and simple.
I don't understand what lists or tactics people are using, but I can't think of a bad matchup for a solid built list. Any Yes, Bullyboys and Greentide are very good, but even using just the codex they are very powerful if built and played correctly.
I think most of the problems people seem to have stem from thinking "ORKS ARE GOOD AT ASSAULT, SO I NEED TO BE THERE ASAP AT ALL COSTS" which just isn't true anymore.
So the fact that over 80% of this gaming community thinks your wrong and that the Ork Codex is one of the bottom tiers (Low mid to bottom) doesn't change your opinion huh? nor does the facts that we have shown time and again. Also as pointed out to you before, saying things like L2P isn't considered friendly on this forum so please stop.
Look. Here's the truth of it: the orks are absolutely not in Necron/Eldar tier. No doubt about it, they are only on the level of Dark Angels when it comes to post-decurion dexes. But at the same time, you're both wearing rose-tinted lenses when it comes to the old Dex and playing the things that were strong last edition that you JUST said got Nerfed...and expecting to win.
What got weaker in the Ork Codex: Nobz, KFF Meks, Biker Nobz, Killa Kanz, Shoota Boyz, Trukks, Deffrollas. The only thing that escaped the purge was Lootas.
What got stronger: Warbikes, Tankbustas, Deffcoptas, Mek Gunz, Meganobz, Warbosses (with Da lucky Stikk), Deffbuggies, Doks, Ard Boyz, Flash Gitz
Orks gained the ability to be one of the best footslogging board-flood armies that currently exists, maybe the only one in the game at the moment. There were definite negatives and positives of the new edition. And just playing what got Nerfed and whining about it to nobody that can actually do anything (because believe me, NOOOOOOOOOBODY at GW knows or cares this forum exists) doesn't solve any of your problems.
We don't say "learn to play" because it will solve all your problems with a subpar codex. We say "learn to play" because beyond house ruling, it's the only way you'll be happier than you are with the game.
the_scotsman wrote: Look. Here's the truth of it: the orks are absolutely not in Necron/Eldar tier. No doubt about it, they are only on the level of Dark Angels when it comes to post-decurion dexes. But at the same time, you're both wearing rose-tinted lenses when it comes to the old Dex and playing the things that were strong last edition that you JUST said got Nerfed...and expecting to win.
What got weaker in the Ork Codex: Nobz, KFF Meks, Biker Nobz, Killa Kanz, Shoota Boyz, Trukks, Deffrollas. The only thing that escaped the purge was Lootas.
What got stronger: Warbikes, Tankbustas, Deffcoptas, Mek Gunz, Meganobz, Warbosses (with Da lucky Stikk), Deffbuggies, Doks, Ard Boyz, Flash Gitz
Orks gained the ability to be one of the best footslogging board-flood armies that currently exists, maybe the only one in the game at the moment. There were definite negatives and positives of the new edition. And just playing what got Nerfed and whining about it to nobody that can actually do anything (because believe me, NOOOOOOOOOBODY at GW knows or cares this forum exists) doesn't solve any of your problems.
We don't say "learn to play" because it will solve all your problems with a subpar codex. We say "learn to play" because beyond house ruling, it's the only way you'll be happier than you are with the game.
I kind of agree with this. The 3 Ork players in my club have either quit the game or switched armies because what they enjoyed playing wasn't quite as good, or was somewhat different. They played the same, unoptimized lists all the time, expecting different outcomes. They never tried any of the new stuff, and I hate to say it, with a new codex comes the purchases of new models.
the_scotsman wrote: Look. Here's the truth of it: the orks are absolutely not in Necron/Eldar tier. No doubt about it, they are only on the level of Dark Angels when it comes to post-decurion dexes. But at the same time, you're both wearing rose-tinted lenses when it comes to the old Dex and playing the things that were strong last edition that you JUST said got Nerfed...and expecting to win.
What got weaker in the Ork Codex: Nobz, KFF Meks, Biker Nobz, Killa Kanz, Shoota Boyz, Trukks, Deffrollas. The only thing that escaped the purge was Lootas.
What got stronger: Warbikes, Tankbustas, Deffcoptas, Mek Gunz, Meganobz, Warbosses (with Da lucky Stikk), Deffbuggies, Doks, Ard Boyz, Flash Gitz
Orks gained the ability to be one of the best footslogging board-flood armies that currently exists, maybe the only one in the game at the moment. There were definite negatives and positives of the new edition. And just playing what got Nerfed and whining about it to nobody that can actually do anything (because believe me, NOOOOOOOOOBODY at GW knows or cares this forum exists) doesn't solve any of your problems.
We don't say "learn to play" because it will solve all your problems with a subpar codex. We say "learn to play" because beyond house ruling, it's the only way you'll be happier than you are with the game.
I kind of agree with this. The 3 Ork players in my club have either quit the game or switched armies because what they enjoyed playing wasn't quite as good, or was somewhat different. They played the same, unoptimized lists all the time, expecting different outcomes. They never tried any of the new stuff, and I hate to say it, with a new codex comes the purchases of new models.
Once you get to a certain point in your collection, a new codex doesn't even really mean you'll have to buy new models... Once you've got 2500-3000+ pts, you should have enough toys to start re-giggling your lists and trying out new/different things when a new codex drops.
the_scotsman wrote: Look. Here's the truth of it: the orks are absolutely not in Necron/Eldar tier. No doubt about it, they are only on the level of Dark Angels when it comes to post-decurion dexes. But at the same time, you're both wearing rose-tinted lenses when it comes to the old Dex and playing the things that were strong last edition that you JUST said got Nerfed...and expecting to win.
What got weaker in the Ork Codex: Nobz, KFF Meks, Biker Nobz, Killa Kanz, Shoota Boyz, Trukks, Deffrollas. The only thing that escaped the purge was Lootas.
What got stronger: Warbikes, Tankbustas, Deffcoptas, Mek Gunz, Meganobz, Warbosses (with Da lucky Stikk), Deffbuggies, Doks, Ard Boyz, Flash Gitz
Orks gained the ability to be one of the best footslogging board-flood armies that currently exists, maybe the only one in the game at the moment. There were definite negatives and positives of the new edition. And just playing what got Nerfed and whining about it to nobody that can actually do anything (because believe me, NOOOOOOOOOBODY at GW knows or cares this forum exists) doesn't solve any of your problems.
We don't say "learn to play" because it will solve all your problems with a subpar codex. We say "learn to play" because beyond house ruling, it's the only way you'll be happier than you are with the game.
I kind of agree with this. The 3 Ork players in my club have either quit the game or switched armies because what they enjoyed playing wasn't quite as good, or was somewhat different. They played the same, unoptimized lists all the time, expecting different outcomes. They never tried any of the new stuff, and I hate to say it, with a new codex comes the purchases of new models.
Once you get to a certain point in your collection, a new codex doesn't even really mean you'll have to buy new models... Once you've got 2500-3000+ pts, you should have enough toys to start re-giggling your lists and trying out new/different things when a new codex drops.
Well, my friends had 2000+ points worth of stuff, but didn't feel like buying the new Mek Gun kits, or any more vehicles (my friend ran lists using only 1 trukk, and a blob of Ard boys running down the board. Like, just....ugh). So, I guess the root of it was just they didn't want to spend more money on a hobby, especially when they felt their codex wasn't worth it anymore.
Ghazkuul wrote: So after a day of voting about 83% of the players believe that the Ork Codex is lower mid to bottom tier codex while 14% think its upper mid tier and lastly, 4 individuals or 3% think that the Ork Codex is top tier.
So with that in mind is their any chance we can now stop having the handful of people yelling and screaming at people talking of ways to improve the Ork Codex? Every single thread I have read about changing the Ork codex has 1-3 individuals who run in and immediately yell that the Orks are OP and if you can't win every game with them then L2P.
how about it folks?
"I took a biased poll from a website where people think BA and tyranids are bottom tier armies, look at my results"
Orks arent eldar, but they are a strong book with the ability to hold their own against other lists when played well.
I however cannot and will not be able to change whatever mental block you have or whatever your lived experiences are, but i know from seeing games be played and playing almoat every day, that orks are much better of of a codex then the internet or ork players want to admit.
Ghazkuul wrote: So Top tier would be something like Craftworld Eldar/Necrons
Upper Middle would be something along the lines of Space Marines/Tau
Lower middle would be Blood Angels
Bottom Tier would be Tyrnids/CSM.
I don't want to derail the thread with a who's who of the most sucky army, but owning both large BA and CSM armies, I can assure you that it is far easier to build a more effective CSM army than a BA one. Maulerfiends and Plague Hulks (not that I own either) are far better than any dread BA can field, JuggerLords, Nurgle Biker Lords and DPs are miles better than any BA characters, the Dreadclaw is way cheaper than a Landraider and also more effective, Havocs can take spec weapons as well as heavies, Oblits, cheaper Termis with combi-weapon option, Nurgle Spawn, Nurgle and Khorne marks on bikers, Daemon Weapons, Helldrakes, Hellblades, conversion beamer Rapiers and Giant Spawn make for many decent choices.
I'm struggling far more with my BA than with my CSM's and would rate BA and CSM on the same tier if not then CSM being higher than BA. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying CSM are great or even good, but they are noticably better than BAimo.
Purely talking mono-build here. Some people may contradict me by using the taxi service example or various imperial allies... before you do, the OPs examples include things like 'Blood Angels', 'CSM', 'Necrons' etc... he did not say 'BA with skitarri allies', 'Eldar with Dark Eldar allies'. So based on the OP we are talking mono-builds.
I am really missing something I guess... I saw some one talk about kustom force field, which is not a great thing anymore... but I have heard not a single Ork player (other than btothefn) mention Mad doc grotsnik.
Look, if I took my marine army and I ran all tactical marines and scouts it would be a TERRIBLE army, and if I refused to listen and try something different, then it would continue to be a terrible army. What I have seen from reading through the ork player posts is that most of you are hammering the strength of the ENTIRE codex based on the Decurion formation, Scatter bike, and Gladius Strike force... So, essentially you are upset that your entire codex can not stand up against THREE builds, thats it, three...
However, when given ideas of things to try all you reply is that it doesn't matter they are bad and it won't matter. However, I do not believe that Marines in any mono-codex style can beat a competitive ork army.
To the guy running the mob of shoota boys, if that is the only scary thing on the board then it is a non-issue... however, drop Doc in it, then put some other serious threats on the board and you will start presenting problems... The goal of the ork army should be to create an impossible target priority scenario, because the lists that you are mentioning are not going to have the numbers to deal with 4-5 real threats. (I will give it to you, not sure what to do about a wraith knight, stompa maybe but I am really not sure, and the stompa costs twice as much).
As far as learning to play comments... that is not the right way to say it... We should be telling you to learn how to play your army better... which is something everyone needs... so if that is offensive then I am sorry, and I would assume you grew up getting trophies even when you came in last place.
So before you even reply... get out of your head... go play a game in the next day or so with some of the changes that have been recommended and play it with the open mind of it is going to work. Furthermore, I think a lot of players in this game shut them selves down mentally more than anything or other player could... just keep it open minded and think that you can win... try new strategies, play numerous games with the strategies... and here is an idea... ASK for advice... do not just come on here thinking you have the worst codex on earth when there are numerous players who are having fun and winning games...
Ghazkuul wrote: So after a day of voting about 83% of the players believe that the Ork Codex is lower mid to bottom tier codex while 14% think its upper mid tier and lastly, 4 individuals or 3% think that the Ork Codex is top tier.
So with that in mind is their any chance we can now stop having the handful of people yelling and screaming at people talking of ways to improve the Ork Codex? Every single thread I have read about changing the Ork codex has 1-3 individuals who run in and immediately yell that the Orks are OP and if you can't win every game with them then L2P.
how about it folks?
"I took a biased poll from a website where people think BA and tyranids are bottom tier armies, look at my results"
Orks arent eldar, but they are a strong book with the ability to hold their own against other lists when played well.
I however cannot and will not be able to change whatever mental block you have or whatever your lived experiences are, but i know from seeing games be played and playing almoat every day, that orks are much better of of a codex then the internet or ork players want to admit.
the_scotsman wrote: Look. Here's the truth of it: the orks are absolutely not in Necron/Eldar tier. No doubt about it, they are only on the level of Dark Angels when it comes to post-decurion dexes. But at the same time, you're both wearing rose-tinted lenses when it comes to the old Dex and playing the things that were strong last edition that you JUST said got Nerfed...and expecting to win.
What got weaker in the Ork Codex: Nobz, KFF Meks, Biker Nobz, Killa Kanz, Shoota Boyz, Trukks, Deffrollas. The only thing that escaped the purge was Lootas.
What got stronger: Warbikes, Tankbustas, Deffcoptas, Mek Gunz, Meganobz, Warbosses (with Da lucky Stikk), Deffbuggies, Doks, Ard Boyz, Flash Gitz
Orks gained the ability to be one of the best footslogging board-flood armies that currently exists, maybe the only one in the game at the moment. There were definite negatives and positives of the new edition. And just playing what got Nerfed and whining about it to nobody that can actually do anything (because believe me, NOOOOOOOOOBODY at GW knows or cares this forum exists) doesn't solve any of your problems.
We don't say "learn to play" because it will solve all your problems with a subpar codex. We say "learn to play" because beyond house ruling, it's the only way you'll be happier than you are with the game.
While this is vaild, over half my boyz where shoota boyz, i have no Meganobz (and i really dont wanna get any as good lord their expensive), no Warbikes (i dont like them), no Deffkoptas, no Buggies, and only 1 Dok. I would pretty much have to rebuild my frelling army, and i really dont want to do that.
Also the Grotsnik bomb no longer works properly because of the changes to Cybork body, the Invuln save is what made them stupid durable.
Sadly GW is a modeling company that makes a set of rules to go with the models that they make. The bikes are probably one of the best things in your codex (but they are expensive dollar wise), so it sounds to me like if you want to make changes to the outcomes of your games (since you do not want to build your army out for the good models in the codex, which I understand as it is an expensive endeavor) then perhaps the answer is to talk to your opponent and have them build their list down to the comp level of yours...
Such as if I played you I would definitely rock out with less powerful stuff, like assault squads and tact marines... captain would just be a captain with nothing on him and so on...
The game is all about fun, and obviously you do not think you are going to show up to play at hard core tourney's, so just talk to your opponent and let them know you are looking for a good, fun, and fluffy game. If they are not willing to oblige then I would honestly say to play someone else... plus, if they are running hyper competitive lists because they want to test them, as them how they are testing it against yours when they already know the outcome (barring some crazy dice rolling).
Also, look at running two combat arms detachments in order to double up on your HQ choices that can be very brutal... I do not remember the last time I played against an ork army with 2 HQ's (4 being the standard)
Plus Mad Doc still works, he just has to go some where else, such as deep in the boys and allows them to be much more durable... however, he needs to be in a mob of 20-30... any less than that an it is a waste... and again, other threats keep them protected.
Ghazkuul wrote: So after a day of voting about 83% of the players believe that the Ork Codex is lower mid to bottom tier codex while 14% think its upper mid tier and lastly, 4 individuals or 3% think that the Ork Codex is top tier.
So with that in mind is their any chance we can now stop having the handful of people yelling and screaming at people talking of ways to improve the Ork Codex? Every single thread I have read about changing the Ork codex has 1-3 individuals who run in and immediately yell that the Orks are OP and if you can't win every game with them then L2P.
how about it folks?
"I took a biased poll from a website where people think BA and tyranids are bottom tier armies, look at my results"
Orks arent eldar, but they are a strong book with the ability to hold their own against other lists when played well.
I however cannot and will not be able to change whatever mental block you have or whatever your lived experiences are, but i know from seeing games be played and playing almoat every day, that orks are much better of of a codex then the internet or ork players want to admit.
BA are a bottom tier army. Who is worse?
Martel I've just read the debate you had where some posters said BA can ally with other IoM armies, so BA can't be considered poor. If anyone does that in future, just remind them that Nids can ally with IKs, Tau can ally with Skitarri, Orks can ally with Eldar, CSM can ally with Mechanicus. In fact, anyone can ally with anyone, so if we use their logic, EVERYONE is a top tier dex.
Martel732 wrote: I read your post about CSM vs BA. Both enlightening and depressing.
Yeh, because there there has been a common consensus for a while that CSMs are the worst, it has kind of stuck as a given on the internet. IA:13 did a lot to change that, benefitting CSMs a lot more than IA:2 benefitted BA. CSMs aren't great but they are playable, whereas BA are struggling in the current meta even more than CSMs due to grav, other low ap weapons, high cost of fast fragile assault units (in the past 2-3 months SG have become unplayable... once again), lack of fast beatsticks outside of Dante and inability to deal with the main assault units of the game (TWC, Lychguard, Necron Wraiths, IKs, Wraithknights etc) through either close combat prowess or tarpitting (the latter doesn't exist).
What I have seen from reading through the ork player posts is that most of you are hammering the strength of the ENTIRE codex based on the Decurion formation, Scatter bike, and Gladius Strike force... So, essentially you are upset that your entire codex can not stand up against THREE builds, thats it, three...
No, I don't think that's true. I don't think Ork players want to be unbalanced powerful like the Decurion. We just want to be able to win games. I'm not upset at ALL that my Ork army can't compete against Gladius, Scatter bike and Decurion... because other than Decurion, I've never PLAYED against those lists.
I play CASUAL games, man. My Tyranid friend tends to be a bit "competitive" but he doesn't throw tournament level lists at me most of the time. Here's the last few armies I played against as my Orks:
Eldar (Gave my friend my Eldar models to use.... trust me it's not an optimized Eldar list)
Necrons (Decurion, Flayed Ones, Annihilation barges, couple other things)
Tyranids (couple flying hive tyrants, a tervigon, a mawloc, a bunch of gaunts, a Malenthrope...)
Tau (Fire Warriors, some devil fish, hammerhead, Riptide, some crisis suits, pathfinders, kroot...)
Space Marines (Before the latest codex - a few tactical squads, some devastaors, some terminators, bikes, etc)
Do any of those lists sound competitive? Necrons don't have to TRY to be competitive, they just bring the Decurion and can win. So I won't even talk about that one. The only game out of all those games that I won was one game against the Tyranids. The only reason I won it was because of a trifecta of good luck: I rolled lucky with my Maelstrom objectives, we were playing a Maelstrom game that favored my deployment, and his Hive Tyrants had to waste time shooting at my Grots that were holding objectives because I was racking up so many points.
Besides that game, I've had multiple losses to all those armies, taken in various mixes. Other than the Tyranid game mentioned above, I had a statistical tie with 6th Edition Necrons. Most of the time when I lose, it's not even close. The game is over by turn 3 or 4.
The fact is that my opponents can put pretty much whatever they want on the table. They can just put down an "all-comers" list, and do really well against my Orks. As Orks? I have to list-tailor like there's no tomorrow, and squeeze my codex for every tactical advantage I can get out of, and I still lose. About the only thing I haven't done is field Bully Boyz or Green Tide.
We're not judging the strength of the Ork Codex against top tournament lists or anything like that. It's just a plain FACT that the Ork codex is not as powerful as most of the other codexes out there. I wish I still had a Chaos Space Marine player to play against, we'd probably have some really cool close games!
Back in 5th Edition, Orks were awesome. I won about as often as I lost, and either way, we had LOTS of cool games that came right down to the wire at the end of turn 6 or turn 7, with both sides only having a few units left on the board. That's the kind of experience I want to get back.
Tell ya what, I would love to play you then, because I have not had a positive record against orks for about 3 editions now... granted... I play against Mega Nobs, bikes, multiple war bosses, boys spam, almost always Mad Doc...
I am actually really surprised the one you won was against a very strong nid list (2 flyrants is pretty beast)...
I still stand that the current Ork codex is very strong, and if I have to rank it on the above poll scale, it would very easily in the Upper Mid Tier, or even in Top honestly.
I'd be more than happy to share any tactics/advice that I can to help anyone out that is having trouble winning games, but Orks stand a chance against any codex out there very easily IMHO.
Btothefnrock wrote: I still stand that the current Ork codex is very strong, and if I have to rank it on the above poll scale, it would very easily in the Upper Mid Tier, or even in Top honestly.
I'd be more than happy to share any tactics/advice that I can to help anyone out that is having trouble winning games, but Orks stand a chance against any codex out there very easily IMHO.
Which units do you use? Do you use one of the formations from Waaagh! Ghazghkull?
He goes back and forth between green tide and bully boys... and uses mega nobs and large shoota boy squads as well as doc and bikes and warboss on bike and war boss in mega armor with lucky stick
I typically play straight from the Codex, but I've also like using the Bully Boys and Green Tide from W!G from time to time.
My builds straight from the codex at the 1500-1850 range that work very well are based from something like this-
Start by knowing you NEED two CAD's. Orks do not function well above 1000pts without more HQ slots. I'm just posting the basis, so I would need to fill in the 2 other troop choices and fill out the rest of the list from here.
My 3 main units.
Warboss- Bike, PK, Finkin' Kap.
Painboy- Bike
3 Warbikers- Nob PKBP
Warboss- MA, DLS 20 Shoota Boys- Nob PKBP
Mad Doc
20 Shoota Boys- Nob PK
Like I said, obviously this is just the beginning of a list, but if you start from here and build outward, you have an INCREDIBLY strong base to build from. I tend to add a Mek to both Boys squads, and maybe an Ork or a few to Grotsniks squad, but the key here is to put enough of a threat on the table while keeping points costs down. 5+ FNP paired with any cover you can muster works exceedingly well against many opponents.
Plenty of people are going to look at this and think "But hey, none of those squads are that great". But what you have to look at is the board control, the difficulty factor of removing these guys, and the power they do have. Every unit is capable of taking on Light infantry. Every unit can fight a MC if needed. Every unit can fend off walkers, and destroy AV14 vehicles. Its redundancy which wins Orks games, and these three units are capable of winning you games by themselves.
Sheer small arms fire will remove most "elite" units from the table, as well as the benefit that most of your opponents expensive weapons upgrades are all but worthless against these guys.
The Warboss's are capable of breaking off and destroying other threats if needed. The Staying power of the two blobs are incredible honestly- Many people say you should upgrade the boys to ArdBoys, but at 2/3 the cost of another boy, I'd rather have more bodies. You also have (effectively) 3 Warboss's. No, they aren't going to be taking on SM Chapter masters 1v1 and winning often, but they will nearly always cause your side to win any combat, which is how I play it. Don't drive headlong into their deathstar units unless its the only option, and if it is, hit it with more than one of these squads and you will often be surprised how long you tarpit them, or end up winning. Overwatch can go very well with ~40 shots (not often, but hey, its fun when you kill half of a TAS)
As for other units, I typically field 2+ MANz missiles (distractions/deadly. DONT FIELD JUST ONE, or it will never make combat), some lootas, one or two SINGLE deffkoptas (objective grabbers), one or two SINGLE Lobba's (also for camping objectives), sometimes min units of gretchin, sometimes 12 shoota boys (NO Nob) in trukks (objective guys), units of KMK or other Mek Guns.
Most of the other units in the codex are just not very good in a competitive manor. (Tankbustas can be great if spammed, but tricky to play well). Kans, Dreads, Flashgits, Nobs, Wagons, etc... they just aren't very good for their points, and tend to be easily destroyed before doing anything. Think about it like this- your opponent has a devistator squad w 4 LC... would you rather lose a 35pt Trukk or a 100+ Wagon, because both are likely to die from that one squad shooting at it. Yes, Trukks are AV10, and can be killed by basically looking at them... but the fact is you start just over 24" away from the enemy, so if you can block LOS or be out of range of most of their AT guns, you will get to move at least ONE time (which is all the MANz will ever need, hehehe)
I also strongly recommend against taking any upgrades on trukks other than the Ram, or any upgrades on ANYTHING that isn't necessary for the function of the unit for that matter- take more bodies instead.
I normally have the two large blobs middle/offset middle, and the biker squad on one flank, MAN's on the opposite (depending on opponent/terrain). I send the bikers to deal with easy to kill targets first normally, aka artillery, tanks, small squads, basically anything that I should be able to take few causalities from, and will help my blobs stay alive as well as. Warboss on bike is pretty resilient against most anything other than massed small arms fire.
Sorry for veering off topic thru that a bit, let me know if I left something vague or if you have any other questions about it.
Crablezworth wrote: There was sadly no hot garbage option so I put bottom tier.
This codex made me sell 4000+ points worth of lovingly converted and fully painted orks, I'll leave it at that.
Made you? It held a shoot a to your head? Why on earth would you do that? Its so irrational.
The rate they are redoing codexes you had maybe a 2 year wait on the outside, and they are still reasonably crunchy in 3 or 4 builds. What a rash decision.
Crablezworth wrote: There was sadly no hot garbage option so I put bottom tier.
This codex made me sell 4000+ points worth of lovingly converted and fully painted orks, I'll leave it at that.
Made you? It held a shoot a to your head? Why on earth would you do that? Its so irrational.
The rate they are redoing codexes you had maybe a 2 year wait on the outside, and they are still reasonably crunchy in 3 or 4 builds. What a rash decision.
The codex is so bad it even inappropriately groped my house plant and generally made a mess of things.
Crablezworth wrote: There was sadly no hot garbage option so I put bottom tier.
This codex made me sell 4000+ points worth of lovingly converted and fully painted orks, I'll leave it at that.
Made you? It held a shoot a to your head? Why on earth would you do that? Its so irrational.
The rate they are redoing codexes you had maybe a 2 year wait on the outside, and they are still reasonably crunchy in 3 or 4 builds. What a rash decision.
maybe he got fed up with the lack of Feths given to the Orks since he started playing. We had a codex in 4th edition and finally got a new one in 7th edition. And instead of fixing a lot of hte problems with the older codex they nerfed the good units and increased the usefulness of some of the weaker units. They also gave us 1 new unit that is great (Mek Gunz) and then 2 that sucked (Naughts and flash gitz)
Crablezworth wrote: There was sadly no hot garbage option so I put bottom tier.
This codex made me sell 4000+ points worth of lovingly converted and fully painted orks, I'll leave it at that.
Made you? It held a shoot a to your head? Why on earth would you do that? Its so irrational.
The rate they are redoing codexes you had maybe a 2 year wait on the outside, and they are still reasonably crunchy in 3 or 4 builds. What a rash decision.
maybe he got fed up with the lack of Feths given to the Orks since he started playing. We had a codex in 4th edition and finally got a new one in 7th edition. And instead of fixing a lot of hte problems with the older codex they nerfed the good units and increased the usefulness of some of the weaker units. They also gave us 1 new unit that is great (Mek Gunz) and then 2 that sucked (Naughts and flash gitz)
Stop making excellent points and bringing facts into this ghaz. clearly it's my personal failure for expecting to enjoy playing with the army I've sunk hundreds of hours into birthing into this world. I'm just a bad person and should feel bad
There are some very capable Ork builds, but they also have some rather very powerful hardcounters. Overall, I'd rate them "solidly mid tier", with some potential to be stronger, but an average that's often lower.
But definitely far below the top tier armies in the game by far when considering a rather typical Ork army.
Btothefnrock wrote: I don't find it fair to say they are lowered "considering a rather typical army"
In that logic, SM are terrible too, because if you don't play Gladius, white scars, Steel Rhein, etc, they are terrible.
except that your average SM army will typically bring centurions with Grav weapons or failing that they will bring Biker grav weapons which makes the army as a whole pretty good.
Compared to the ork equivalent, Mek Gunz...yeah we get to pay a very good price for a S8 AP2 small blast that can Get Hot and scatter a feth ton.
Martel732 wrote: Biker grav only gets you so far. BA can do it and are still really bad.
thats because you didn't get half the stuff that Codex SM got. You dont get better dreads or cheaper terminators (why you would use them i dont know) nor do you benefit from all the other upgrades that SM's got.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The point I was making was in regards to Bto who said that SM essentially suck unless you take them in one of 3 formations.
Martel732 wrote: Biker grav only gets you so far. BA can do it and are still really bad.
thats because you didn't get half the stuff that Codex SM got. You dont get better dreads or cheaper terminators (why you would use them i dont know) nor do you benefit from all the other upgrades that SM's got.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The point I was making was in regards to Bto who said that SM essentially suck unless you take them in one of 3 formations.
They don't suck per se, but they certainly are much weaker.
I consider the Orks to be a mid tier codex. I still stubbornly hold that the extra layer of randomness they Orks bring to the table makes them just as unreliable at being a bottom tier army as it does with being a top tier army.
The randomness aside. I'm actually happy we can count a few units and formations as competitive in of themselves because in general I don't see the Ork army as the type of army that has an assortment of good and bad to cherry pick out of. They are all boyz with different toyz for different jobs and none are really spectacular. The strength I see, is as someone else has put it, is the Orks ability to really mess with target priorities of the opponant. We can afford to field redundancy, and redundancy we should field. Lost a trukk? Got 4 more. Lost 30 boyz? Got 90 More. Lost a tankbusta unit? Got another tankbusta unit of 15 etc... Orks have the ability to field units large enough and with so much wounds that it takes multiple units from the enemy to dish out that many wounds and in some case like the Green Tide with 101-301 models or Vulcha Skwad with 16-91 model. But even then the amount of 30 model blob we can field can leave the opponant wishing he/she brought more heavy bolters.
ProwlerPC wrote: I consider the Orks to be a mid tier codex. I still stubbornly hold that the extra layer of randomness they Orks bring to the table makes them just as unreliable at being a bottom tier army as it does with being a top tier army. The randomness aside. I'm actually happy we can count a few units and formations as competitive in of themselves because in general I don't see the Ork army as the type of army that has an assortment of good and bad to cherry pick out of. They are all boyz with different toyz for different jobs and none are really spectacular. The strength I see, is as someone else has put it, is the Orks ability to really mess with target priorities of the opponant. We can afford to field redundancy, and redundancy we should field. Lost a trukk? Got 4 more. Lost 30 boyz? Got 90 More. Lost a tankbusta unit? Got another tankbusta unit of 15 etc... Orks have the ability to field units large enough and with so much wounds that it takes multiple units from the enemy to dish out that many wounds and in some case like the Green Tide with 101-301 models or Vulcha Skwad with 16-91 model. But even then the amount of 30 model blob we can field can leave the opponant wishing he/she brought more heavy bolters.
So you think that Killa Kanz, Dreads, Stompas, Morkanauts, Gorkanauts, Nobz, Nob bikers, Burna boyz, Flash gitz, Ghazghkuul thraka and Storm boyz (thats about 2/3rds the codex) are upper mid or even just plain middle tier? I personally dont think Mega nobz are good because they are expensive and have no way of dealing with AP2 besides taking the wound, unless god forbid it was S8 or higher. But i didn't throw them in because people like them. SO please explain to me why they are mid tier.
Orks aren't exactly 'top tier', but they aren't nearly as bad as a lot of people seem to think. I've had to reevaluate my look on the army recently, and realized as far as armies go, our book is pretty well rounded.
What makes Orks feel so 'bottom tier' is two primary things. Our ballistic skill, and how congested some of our slots are. In an edition that favors heavy shooting, Orks still struggle to hit their mark, despite volume of shots. This hurts a lot when we rely on our rather solid weapon options to cripple things for the melee-centric units to finish them off.
I think if we had a form of Mek Gun that had more shots to take advantage of the rare BS 3 in our book, we'd be a lot better off. As it is, our Lootas are just a bit too unreliable with random shot output and a BS2 on top of the random...
Which goes into our congested slots. The choice between heavy transports, heavy artillery, or heavy sniping units in addition to our various walkers or the still confusing Flash Gitz, it makes it rough sometimes to find proper balance in our ranged support. Our HQ slots are also competing for room because our generic HQs are all really solid all around. Especially the fantastic Painboy.
Our army on a COMPETITIVE level suffers because of comp systems. If we're allowed multi detachments, that is where Orks begin to shine. We are an army of redundancy. If we are denied having extras of what we need...well...it's just an uphill struggle.
I rarely get squished without a massive fight in my games. Then again, I never ever play just one detachment. I'll fill out two if I have too. I know I need those extra painboyz. I know i'll need a boss/b. mek or two to get the job done. I know if I'm running a walker army, I'll need lots of Kanz to support the Dreads, while also needing to pack artillery to hammer things while my tin cans waddle up the field.
So you think that Killa Kanz, Dreads, Stompas, Morkanauts, Gorkanauts, Nobz, Nob bikers, Burna boyz, Flash gitz, Ghazghkuul thraka and Storm boyz (thats about 2/3rds the codex) are upper mid or even just plain middle tier? I personally dont think Mega nobz are good because they are expensive and have no way of dealing with AP2 besides taking the wound, unless god forbid it was S8 or higher. But i didn't throw them in because people like them. SO please explain to me why they are mid tier.
You are right on (other than the Manz, they are great) about all of these guys being the suck. I would also add Kommandos and Big Mek to that list. And Storm Boys might be ok, but I've never had great luck with them.
Lots of codices have multiple low tier units though- For exmple SM have Honor Guard, Vanguard Veterans, Centurion Assault Squads, Assault Squads, Land Speeder Storm (I actually love these things), Hunter, Stalker, Whirlwind, Predator, Land Raider, Land Raider Redeemer, and a majority of their characters (though some are very good). Not to mention that most SM players complain about scouts and Tactical Squads being terrible compared to other armies troops.
It still comes down to list building and play style no matter which army someone is playing.
Consider this guys:
You are playing a game against your friend who owns Space Marines. He loves the way the Honor Guard models look, and uses a bunch of them. He also likes the idea of 6 Land Speeder Storms swooping across the field, with scouts repelling down and taking objectives/etc. The rest of his list is Hunters and a Chaplain. How powerful is this guys army going to be vs someone playing a proper Gladius list?
This is what I see happening with ork players- "Oh I want to field a KFF Mek on bike to protect my two units of 15 Burnas in the 2 battle wagons kitted out" because they like the idea of it working.
Point is, there are "bad" units in every codex, and bad builds that are easily made. Therefore, its unfair to compare anything but the "cream of the crop" lists from each Codex, else you are comparing Apples to Oranges.
Point is, there are "bad" units in every codex, and bad builds that are easily made. Therefore, its unfair to compare anything but the "cream of the crop" lists from each Codex, else you are comparing Apples to Oranges.
Ther problem for me is there are far more lists/direction/themes with marines that can still work for the most part to varying degrees effectiveness, I simply don't think that's true for the latest iteration of orks. The old codex, I could comfortable do about 3 builds that I liked, the latest dex offers me none of the prior 3 and anything that works to some baseline degree of effectiveness isn;t fun to play with (oh look, tankbustas in battlewagons).
You know, these recent Ork threads have literally been Bizarro World threads about Eldar. They go almost EXACTLY the same.
Eldar threads go -
Non Eldar Player: X is broken
Eldar Player: Nah, they aren't cuz X
and the cycle goes on and on with the 'that guy' Eldar player never really conceding that his book is good. He instead proceeds to counter every single valid point with a 'yeah but' statement and no one can convince him the book is near busted.
These Ork threads have been the EXACT opposite.
Ork Player: Our book sucks!
Non Ork; Nah dude, seriously, you got x, x, x, x going for you! It's not that bad.
Ork player then proceeds to counter every point with anecdotals like the Eldar player or over blows the weaknesses of x, x, x and x. No matter how many valid points the Non Ork players (or even Ork players) make in favor of the book, the complaining Ork player will never concede that his book isn't as bad as he says it is and can always find new ways that their book sucks.
Edited to fix spelling
Edited to add on
While on the topic:
I personally am glad we aren't a power house army. I'm glad we are quite easily middle of the pack right now. Wanna know why? Because aspiring to be the newest Eldar/Cron/Marine dex isn't fun. Being the army that everyone groans/rolls their eyes at...isn't fun. You see how badly these players get treated, no matter how fluffy/casual/waac these particular individuals play. I am not eager to be on that end of the hate train simply for having an army I love, yet suddenly everyone turns their back on because we got a few busted things.
Do I wish our book had a FEW extra little touches, or wished a few changes HADN'T happened. Durr. Of course I do. But as it stands, my book is still super fun to play. Everyone state wide has no qualms about playing my Orks, and people ENJOY the games we play. It's never an eye roll fest to the point where your eyes actually HURT. The book still has some great tools in it, some new good tools, and can typically put up a solid fight outside of cheese fests (Which ANY army is going to struggle against.
Melevolence wrote: You know, these recent Ork threads have literally been Bizarro World threads about Eldar. They go almost EXACTLY the same.
Eldar threads go -
Non Eldar Player: X is broken
Eldar Player: Nah, they aren't cuz X
and the cycle goes on and on with the 'that guy' Eldar player never really conceding that his book is good. He instead proceeds to counter every single valid point with a 'yeah but' statement and no one can convince him the book is near busted.
These Ork threads have been the EXACT opposite.
Ork Player: Our book sucks!
Non Ork; Nah dude, seriously, you got x, x, x, x going for you! It's not that bad.
Ork player then proceeds to counter every point with anecdotals like the Eldar player or over blows the weaknesses of x, x, x and x. No matter how many valid points the Non Ork players (or even Ork players) make in favor of the book, the complaining Ork player will never concede that his book isn't as bad as he says it is and can always find new ways that their book sucks.
Edited to fix spelling
Edited to add on
While on the topic:
I personally am glad we aren't a power house army. I'm glad we are quite easily middle of the pack right now. Wanna know why? Because aspiring to be the newest Eldar/Cron/Marine dex isn't fun. Being the army that everyone groans/rolls their eyes at...isn't fun. You see how badly these players get treated, no matter hoaw fluffy/casual/waac these particular individuals play. I am not eager to be on that end of the hate train simply for having an army I love, yet suddenly everyone turns their back on because we got a few busted things.
Do I wish our book had a FEW extra little touches, or wished a few changes HADN'T happened. Durr. Of course I do. But as it stands, my book is still super fun to play. Everyone state wide has no qualms about playing my Orks, and people ENJOY the games we play. It's never an eye roll fest to the point where your eyes actually HURT. The book still has some great tools in it, some new good tools, and can typically put up a solid fight outside of cheese fests (Which ANY army is going to struggle against.
The just compared Eldar to Orks.....
Anyway, im glad your local meta lets you be relatively competitive. The area im in is filled with FW shenanigans and Eldar shenanigans, Green Tide doesn't work because of the Bike spam which eats swathes of my models every turn, Gun line doesn't work because....were orks. And the most success I have had is being sneaky with Bikes, trukkz and BW's filled with boyz.
I don't want our dex to be the next Eldar dex, what i want is GW to make a balanced game that allows me to play with more of the units in my fething codex and not have to start at a distinct disadvantage.
Melevolence wrote: You know, these recent Ork threads have literally been Bizarro World threads about Eldar. They go almost EXACTLY the same.
Eldar threads go -
Non Eldar Player: X is broken
Eldar Player: Nah, they aren't cuz X
and the cycle goes on and on with the 'that guy' Eldar player never really conceding that his book is good. He instead proceeds to counter every single valid point with a 'yeah but' statement and no one can convince him the book is near busted.
These Ork threads have been the EXACT opposite.
Ork Player: Our book sucks!
Non Ork; Nah dude, seriously, you got x, x, x, x going for you! It's not that bad.
Ork player then proceeds to counter every point with anecdotals like the Eldar player or over blows the weaknesses of x, x, x and x. No matter how many valid points the Non Ork players (or even Ork players) make in favor of the book, the complaining Ork player will never concede that his book isn't as bad as he says it is and can always find new ways that their book sucks.
Edited to fix spelling
Edited to add on
While on the topic:
I personally am glad we aren't a power house army. I'm glad we are quite easily middle of the pack right now. Wanna know why? Because aspiring to be the newest Eldar/Cron/Marine dex isn't fun. Being the army that everyone groans/rolls their eyes at...isn't fun. You see how badly these players get treated, no matter hoaw fluffy/casual/waac these particular individuals play. I am not eager to be on that end of the hate train simply for having an army I love, yet suddenly everyone turns their back on because we got a few busted things.
Do I wish our book had a FEW extra little touches, or wished a few changes HADN'T happened. Durr. Of course I do. But as it stands, my book is still super fun to play. Everyone state wide has no qualms about playing my Orks, and people ENJOY the games we play. It's never an eye roll fest to the point where your eyes actually HURT. The book still has some great tools in it, some new good tools, and can typically put up a solid fight outside of cheese fests (Which ANY army is going to struggle against.
The just compared Eldar to Orks.....
Anyway, im glad your local meta lets you be relatively competitive. The area im in is filled with FW shenanigans and Eldar shenanigans, Green Tide doesn't work because of the Bike spam which eats swathes of my models every turn, Gun line doesn't work because....were orks. And the most success I have had is being sneaky with Bikes, trukkz and BW's filled with boyz.
I don't want our dex to be the next Eldar dex, what i want is GW to make a balanced game that allows me to play with more of the units in my fething codex and not have to start at a distinct disadvantage.
Melevolence wrote: You know, these recent Ork threads have literally been Bizarro World threads about Eldar. They go almost EXACTLY the same.
Eldar threads go -
Non Eldar Player: X is broken
Eldar Player: Nah, they aren't cuz X
and the cycle goes on and on with the 'that guy' Eldar player never really conceding that his book is good. He instead proceeds to counter every single valid point with a 'yeah but' statement and no one can convince him the book is near busted.
These Ork threads have been the EXACT opposite.
Ork Player: Our book sucks!
Non Ork; Nah dude, seriously, you got x, x, x, x going for you! It's not that bad.
Ork player then proceeds to counter every point with anecdotals like the Eldar player or over blows the weaknesses of x, x, x and x. No matter how many valid points the Non Ork players (or even Ork players) make in favor of the book, the complaining Ork player will never concede that his book isn't as bad as he says it is and can always find new ways that their book sucks.
Edited to fix spelling
Edited to add on
While on the topic:
I personally am glad we aren't a power house army. I'm glad we are quite easily middle of the pack right now. Wanna know why? Because aspiring to be the newest Eldar/Cron/Marine dex isn't fun. Being the army that everyone groans/rolls their eyes at...isn't fun. You see how badly these players get treated, no matter how fluffy/casual/waac these particular individuals play. I am not eager to be on that end of the hate train simply for having an army I love, yet suddenly everyone turns their back on because we got a few busted things.
Do I wish our book had a FEW extra little touches, or wished a few changes HADN'T happened. Durr. Of course I do. But as it stands, my book is still super fun to play. Everyone state wide has no qualms about playing my Orks, and people ENJOY the games we play. It's never an eye roll fest to the point where your eyes actually HURT. The book still has some great tools in it, some new good tools, and can typically put up a solid fight outside of cheese fests (Which ANY army is going to struggle against.
I read an article once that hits on what you're getting at. I'll link it, as it's some interesting stuff...
I am not an Ork player, but I thought I would piggyback a question here to those who are.
My first thought about Orks and seventh edition was: "damn, overwatch must suck!". Everybody in the game outshoots Orks, so they presumably want to get into combat instead, but overwatch would brutalise them (lots of shots, enough wounds, no saves). I wish I could have used my Sisters' Flamers to kill of charging Orks back in fifth edition!
The only game I have played against them in seventh was running a melee-heavy Nids list, so overwatch was less of a concern than 'who gets the bonus attacks for charging'
Well Overwatch is a great idea, but flawed when it comes to the tabletop because there is literally no downside to firing it.
Anyhoo, my only quarrel with the Ork Codex is that every other 7th Codex released in 2014 seemed to be balanced against each other, right up until the new CEO came in and gave us the Decurion and the power creep ramped up ten-fold.
I'd rather the perceived OP Codexes/formations be toned down to the level of the 2014 Codexes. I agree with Ghazkuul that I'd like to see Codexes released all at the same time with the new edition (just don't want to see an Age of the Emporer approach to it).
With the supplement you can get some good builds, but the codex on its own? Definitely Lower mid tier.
Honestly I'd rather use the 4th ed codex, it's actually better in some ways. Still I wish we got a 7.5 codex, though knowing GW it'll be another 7 years before we get a new one.
To see the relative power of Orks vs. marines, just look at what 11 points buys you:
Ork boy witch 'eavy armor and shoota and stikkbombz
Space Marine scout with bolter, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades
Both have 4+ save, same WS, W, and T. Both are troops. Guns are similar, although a shoota may be slightly better.
But whereas Orks get Ld 7 and Mob Rule, the scout gets Ld 8 and ATSKNF.
The Ork gets +1A. The Scout gets +2BS, +1S, +2I.
The Ork gets 'Ere We Go. Scout gets Infiltrate, Scout, Move Through Cover, and Chapter Tactics. (The Ork gets Furious Charge, but that still only makes them the same S as a scout only if they get the charge.)
A scout is almost universally equal or better across the board, right?
I feel like points should balance all units and armies and the same 11 points seems to buy a more versatile and effective marine unit.
When you do the same exercise comparing scouts and kommandos (infiltrators for both armies), the results favor the Scout even more strongly, in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong. I love Orks and I have never collected any other army. I actually win at Maelstrom more than I lose (and lose at Eternal War far more than I win). I think the Ork dex is flavorful, fun, and competitive. I just don't understand how the points values are calculated to "balance" our units with those of some other factions.
the_scotsman wrote: You also get the ability to take a mob up to 30, cheap force multiplier units, and assault transports.
Fair points, but scouts have access to an assault skimmer transport (for smaller units, but still a similar option). But scouts also get more weapon and equipment options like camo cloaks. I'm not saying Ork boyz are lousy by any means, but can you honestly say you would not trade one attack and 'Ere We Go for +2BS, +1S, +2Ini, +1Ld and trade Mob Rule for ATSKNF? I think most Ork players would take that trade for their shoota boyz in a heartbeat!
To me, the only big advantages of 30-boy blobs are that it helps you pass mob rule (but you wouldn't have to worry about the morale of MSU if you had ATSKNF) and that you can really get a big boost from your Painboyz.
But like I said, I love Orks and think they can be used effectively in the current Codex. I think they are harder to use successfully than some other armies like Marines or Necrons because our units are really only effective at one or two things and you have to have the right mix maneuvered into the right place at the right time to be effective. You have to have good timing, your units have to support each other and set each other up. You have to plan two turns ahead. The army can be unforgiving of poor deployment and turn 1 movement choices.
I think there is a steep learning curve and that is why you see such disagreement on how effective the codex is. In the right hands with the right list, it is very powerful. But in the average player's hands (like me!) and with a list that is limited by our painted models (many of us don't have 15 MANz, 100+ Boyz for Green Tide, or five battlewagons), it can be very hit-or-miss depending on the mission, terrain, opponent, etc.
What I find is I tend to win close games and my losses are often absolute blow-outs where I get crushed. I don't ever roll over anyone, but Orks can be very effective in Maelstrom games due to our board control.
happened" and then we'd laugh about a squig in 
that can be very brutal... I do not remember the last time I played against an ork army with 2 
