UPDATE: It was a National Guardsman and Airman, not Marines.
djones520 wrote: We need an update to the thread title. It was a US Airmen, and a National Guardsmen (no word if Army or Airforce) that detained the man. There was no Marines involved. The Airman was the man who initially attacked the guy, but received multiple lacerations from the the knife the attacker had.
Just heard about this now. Thank god for the US Marine Corps. And its a relief that one of these unpredictable 'lone wolf' attacks was averted for once.
France train shooting: Three hurt and man arrested
An armed man has injured three people on a train between Amsterdam and Paris before being overpowered by two American passengers, officials say.
The incident happened on the high-speed Thalys service near Arras, and the assailant was arrested at its station.
Two of the victims, said to be an American and a Briton, were seriously injured - one had a gunshot wound, the other a knife wound, reports said.
The reports said the man arrested was of North African origin.
One of his weapons was said to be a Kalashnikov.
Le Monde said the man also had an automatic pistol and had so far refused to talk to police in Arras.
French actor Jean-Hugues Anglade was also lightly wounded when breaking glass to sound the alarm.
Local official Fabienne Buccio praised the passengers for showing "great composure".
The UK Foreign Office said it was aware of the reports of shots being fired and that was in touch with French authorities, urgently seeking information.
The attack took place at about 18:00 local time (16:00 GMT).
Images shared on social media appeared to show a man being restrained on the station platform in Arras.
"The situation is under control, the travellers are safe. The train stopped and the emergency services are on site," the Thalys official Twitter account tweeted.
French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve was heading to Arras in the wake of the attack, his ministry said.
Interior ministry spokesman Pierre Henry Brandet added: "Talking about a terrorist motive would be premature at the moment."
However, anti-terrorist officers have now taken over the investigation, the Paris prosecutor's office said.
Hordini wrote: It's not the first time Marines have saved Paris.
I'll assume for a moment this will have rather less of an impact on the French gene-pool, though
On a more serious note, Dutch news is reporting both marines were rushed to hospitals in 'critical condition'; one with a bullet wound, the other with a knife-inflicted injury.
Don't really have the time or inclination to try and source it more thoroughly but it seems news reports are conflicted on the nationalities of the injured. In any case, the BBC reports that the UK foreign office states that initial reports of a British citizen being injured are incorrect and in fact no citizens of the UK were harmed, so the report in the OP is probably inaccurate on that count.
Heard this on the news. Lucky that those marines happened to be on the train. I also heard they were injured. Whatever the case, those guys are heroes.
Hordini wrote: It's not the first time Marines have saved Paris.
Instant Exalt
Also Its "OORAH!" not Hoorah. I have no idea who the feth says Hoorah I understand im naturally biased because I am a US Marine but why do about half the news stories for this reference "Soldier" and not Marine? They are not the same.
Hordini wrote: It's not the first time Marines have saved Paris.
Instant Exalt
Also Its "OORAH!" not Hoorah. I have no idea who the feth says Hoorah I understand im naturally biased because I am a US Marine but why do about half the news stories for this reference "Soldier" and not Marine? They are not the same.
Because most "news" organisations seem to have little interest in educating themselves (or anyone else) on their subject matter and using accurate terminology.
Edit: Oh, and well done to those Marines! Glad someone was there who was willing and able to confront the threat.
When I was in Paris some weeks ago I noticed a lot of armed police and soldiers patrolling the stations. Perhaps they're expecting attacks of this sort. Good job someone was able to stop an attacker when they struck though.
Latest reports sounds like they weren't Marines but rather National Guard and Air Force, and there were a third American who was tending to the injured while the others took the guy down.
We need an update to the thread title. It was a US Airmen, and a National Guardsmen (no word if Army or Airforce) that detained the man. There was no Marines involved. The Airman was the man who initially attacked the guy, but received multiple lacerations from the the knife the attacker had.
djones520 wrote: We need an update to the thread title. It was a US Airmen, and a National Guardsmen (no word if Army or Airforce) that detained the man. There was no Marines involved. The Airman was the man who initially attacked the guy, but received multiple lacerations from the the knife the attacker had.
Yeah was about to say, they werent Marines lol. Apparrently the Jarhead Propaganda Machine is so good that theyre getting credit for what the other services do now (oh wait, thats been the case for years).
chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah was about to say, they werent Marines lol. Apparrently the Jarhead Propaganda Machine is so good that theyre getting credit for what the other services do now (oh wait, thats been the case for years).
chaos0xomega wrote: Maybe just a little, the Corps idiotic tattoo policy precludes me from going to OCS.
don't get me wrong, it is incredibly hard, but their is a waiver for everything. You just have to have 2 things going for you. Being a top tier officer recruit AND knowing an officer recruiter who will go to bat for you. Congressmen/High ranking marine endorsements help.
As an E-3, yeah he'll probably get a Commendation Medal. The military is still stupid about that stuff.
I served here as a SWO NCOIC for a 7 battalion JOINT brigade, covering 54 aircraft, over a thousand Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen, spread across 4 bases across the entire country, in a unit that provides 70% of ISR for the entire war, and was told that my job didn't cover enough scope to warrant an MSM.
The military just has its head up its ass regarding medals and rank.
A couple quotes from the Brit I just have to post.
First a little AF pride
"Spencer, though wounded, went to help the passenger who was cut in his neck, applying pressure to stop the bleeding"
Second
""My thought was, 'OK, I'm probably going to die anyway, so let's go.' I'd rather die being active, trying to get him down, then simply sit in the corner and be shot."
Logically he was right, still doesn't change the courage it took.
djones520 wrote: As an E-3, yeah he'll probably get a Commendation Medal. The military is still stupid about that stuff.
I served here as a SWO NCOIC for a 7 battalion JOINT brigade, covering 54 aircraft, over a thousand Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen, spread across 4 bases across the entire country, in a unit that provides 70% of ISR for the entire war, and was told that my job didn't cover enough scope to warrant an MSM.
The military just has its head up its ass regarding medals and rank.
Deployed I spent 2 months developing a target and finally found out everything about him, such as his name, residence, and where in the chain of command he was in the Taliban, (Assistant SDG) Convinced our British allies to launch a night raid on him and they killed him and his entire taliban cell with a few well placed helicopters. I got told to stop wasting my time by my Lieutenant, because when they killed him he was in the British AO and not ours. Got thanked profusely by GCHQ because they had dropped intel on this guy months before and was responsible for the deaths of several British soldiers.
And at the same time after our deployment I got a LOC (Letter of Commendation) and our idiot Motor T Chief got a NAC (Naval Achievement Medal) For keeping our vehicles running.
The AK has a legendary reputation for reliably, and it's mostly well-earned, but it's just a machine. It's not some magic rod that never, ever fails. It could have been badly made, badly maintained, damaged, bad ammo, a case could have gotten stuck in the chamber, or any one of the many other reasons any other gun can jam.
Ouze wrote: The AK has a legendary reputation for reliably, and it's mostly well-earned, but it's just a machine. It's not some magic rod that never, ever fails. It could have been badly made, badly maintained, damaged, bad ammo, a case could have gotten stuck in the chamber, or any one of the many other reasons any other gun can jam.
Amateur user, poor ammunition, dirt.
There was an unnamed Frenchman who was from some reports the first to tackle the terrorist, alone, in a different carriage, and got fethed up for it, or so it appears.
At least on my AK, with some magazines it can be a little finicky to seat the magazine properly. So yeah, inexperienced user is surely a strong possibility.
I guess inexperienced help is an occupational hazard with suicide attackers.
Freakazoitt wrote: It heard, AK was jammed after several shots. How it is possbile?
In the US, it's surprisingly common for guns recovered from criminals have magazines containing ammunition that is either inserted backwards or of the wrong caliber for the weapon. It could be the case here.
Freakazoitt wrote: It heard, AK was jammed after several shots. How it is possbile?
In the US, it's surprisingly common for guns recovered from criminals have magazines containing ammunition that is either inserted backwards or of the wrong caliber for the weapon. It could be the case here.
How...is that possible?
Isn't it obvious that the bullets go towards the muzzle?
How...is that possible?
Isn't it obvious that the bullets go towards the muzzle?
If the scumbag was stupid enough to think to try and ask for his gun back from his intended victims, inserting bullets incorrectly sounds more logically plausible than that.
Freakazoitt wrote: It heard, AK was jammed after several shots. How it is possbile?
In the US, it's surprisingly common for guns recovered from criminals have magazines containing ammunition that is either inserted backwards or of the wrong caliber for the weapon. It could be the case here.
How...is that possible?
Isn't it obvious that the bullets go towards the muzzle?
To you and I, yes. But to gang-bangers still flying high off their last hit maybe not so much.
I've read several articles in firearm/self-defense publications that talk about recovered criminal armament and police evidence lockers full of jam-o-matics, improvised/home-made firearms, improperly repaired/maintained guns and incompatible caliber/weapon match-ups. Apparently getting your gat from larry the crackhead doesn't always net you a reliable shooter, even amongst weapon types noted for reliability.
There are people that think raising the rear leaf sight all the way increases the power of the bullet, so putting cartridges the wrong way around in the magazine seems plausible in comparison...
I distinctly remember going to the range to fire a CMP course (combat marksmanship) and we had nothing but Marines (obviously) who had finished boot camp and MCT (Marine Combat Training). So they had at the very least been on the range practicing with weapons for about a month. And yet even with this we had two females and a particularly stupid boot who were all attempting to load magazines backwards. We also Had a really stupid boot who thought that Condition 4 meant having a round in the chamber but not a magazine inserted.
I think this is where hazing would have been a good remedial action for these tool bags.
Freakazoitt wrote: It heard, AK was jammed after several shots. How it is possbile?
magazines containing ammunition that is inserted backwards
I can't even comprehend such stupidity. That is on the same level as pointing the wrong end of the gun towards the enemy, or looking into the barrel to see why the gun isn't firing I guess it is easier with a straight mag than with a curved one, but still.
This is hilarious.
Ghazkuul wrote: I distinctly remember going to the range to fire a CMP course (combat marksmanship) and we had nothing but Marines (obviously) who had finished boot camp and MCT (Marine Combat Training). So they had at the very least been on the range practicing with weapons for about a month. And yet even with this we had two females and a particularly stupid boot who were all attempting to load magazines backwards. We also Had a really stupid boot who thought that Condition 4 meant having a round in the chamber but not a magazine inserted.
I think this is where hazing would have been a good remedial action for these tool bags.
When I went through boot camp we had about a 30% attrition rate. For no reason known to me, we had one recruit, who was dumber than a box of rocks, graduate. As Series Secretary I happened to notice his reports on the DI's desk and he was literally listed in the report as so stupid he was dangerous to himself and others.
Freakazoitt wrote: It heard, AK was jammed after several shots. How it is possbile?
- Poor ammunition
- Magazine inserted incorrectly
- Faulty magazine
- old ammo
- faulty primer
- Mechanical fault with the rifle
- Improperly maintained
- Interference with the charging handle during operation preventing a new round being fully chambered, or bolt not returning to battery
The AK series of rifles is reliable, but that does not make it flawless
How...is that possible? Isn't it obvious that the bullets go towards the muzzle?
Oh, it can happen....
German engineering at its finest. The bullet clearly circulates from behind and enters the firing chamber
According to one source, the gun in that picture is a Sig Sauer. I don't know much about pistol brands, so I wouldn't know. I just know the basic mechanics of a fire arm.
Not Darwin Award, but I saw the pictures and it may have hurt a wee bit. When striking the pin with the round the primer was set off, and outside of the chamber of a firearm rated for 12.7x99mm rounds the detonation caused significant damage to the hand.
I've seen pictures on that dude that tried to beat the 50's flex mount pins in place with a 50 round. Mangled his hand pretty good the dingbat.
I knew a guy that dropped a 5.56 round on the ground, it must of landed just right because it went off. Fired the round straight at him, hit him in mag pouches and got stopped by a magazine.
BrotherGecko wrote: I knew a guy that dropped a 5.56 round on the ground, it must of landed just right because it went off. Fired the round straight at him, hit him in mag pouches and got stopped by a magazine.
It probably wouldn't haven't done much damage even if it hit him on bare skin. A bullet that didn't go through a barrel has almost no velocity. The case is probably more dangerous in that situation.
Ouze wrote: It probably wouldn't haven't done much damage even if it hit him on bare skin. A bullet that didn't go through a barrel has almost no velocity. The case is probably more dangerous in that situation.
Yup. Because there isn't a chamber to channel the pressure and the bullet the case is typically what travels the furthest, and poses the greatest hazard. I had read a story (google-fu is failing) about someone who found a log where holes had been drilled and rounds inserted into the holes, with the bullet facing out. The alleged idea was that this log would find its way into a camp fire, the log would heat up, the round would detonate, and the log would hold the case allowing the bullet to travel.
A guy in New Zealand who was protecting his firewood in the 70's. Hopefully the idea of someone leaving logs like that with the intention of people finding them an urban myth from this as it is just frightening!
- Interference with the charging handle during operation preventing a new round being fully chambered, or bolt not returning to battery.
I do this all the time, especially with my target air rifle. Under the stress of a difficult shot it is too easy for me to be concentrating on my shot to much and forget to ensure that I have fully closed the bolt. That thunk and puff of air in my face is fething annoying! I could quite see how some wannabe jihadists who has hardly used a rifle could do something like that. Fortunately most of them are dumb and not well trained. That's why they worry me far less than the IRA did or someone like Anders Breivik. Most of them are dumbasses playing at soldiers with anger issues.
Because most robbers are known for shooting up their victims before trying to rob them.....
It's not a totally unreasonable claim. A French passenger spotted him and tried to disarm him, shots were fired and people started running. Maybe he panicked? It wouldn't be the first robber who lost his script when things didn't go as he planned.
But great job disarming the man, and extra respect for helping the wounded even when you've received injuries yourself. This is almost as epic as that lone gurkha on a train with a score of robbers. ;-)
As for an AK rifle jamming it can happen if you've been sloppy loading the magazine (or it's a crappy magazine) or manage to catch the charging handle on something when running around in tight quarters. You might have dirt in the gas blowback hole which means the bolt won't cycle properly. And ofc, some models don't take too well to surplus military ammo (or it might be bad ammo). .
Because most robbers are known for shooting up their victims before trying to rob them.....
It's not a totally unreasonable claim. A French passenger spotted him and tried to disarm him, shots were fired and people started running. Maybe he panicked? It wouldn't be the first robber who lost his script when things didn't go as he planned.
Which is totally why he took 8 magazines, a pistol and a knife.
He certainly wasn't planning on using them
Because most robbers are known for shooting up their victims before trying to rob them.....
It's not a totally unreasonable claim. A French passenger spotted him and tried to disarm him, shots were fired and people started running. Maybe he panicked? It wouldn't be the first robber who lost his script when things didn't go as he planned.
But great job disarming the man, and extra respect for helping the wounded even when you've received injuries yourself. This is almost as epic as that lone gurkha on a train with a score of robbers. ;-)
As for an AK rifle jamming it can happen if you've been sloppy loading the magazine (or it's a crappy magazine) or manage to catch the charging handle on something when running around in tight quarters. You might have dirt in the gas blowback hole which means the bolt won't cycle properly. And ofc, some models don't take too well to surplus military ammo (or it might be bad ammo). .
Or it's not actually a kalashnikov but a cheap version made in Nigeria or Pakistan from tinfoil and coke cans.
Ouze wrote: In OP's defense, it was reported everywhere yesterday as Marines.
Because that's how reporting now works.
This is why I usually wait to give a frack when news breaks, the info is ALWAYS incorrect. Sometimes by so much the whole story is different from yesterday to today
Ouze wrote: In OP's defense, it was reported everywhere yesterday as Marines.
Because that's how reporting now works.
This is why I usually wait to give a frack when news breaks, the info is ALWAYS incorrect. Sometimes by so much the whole story is different from yesterday to today
I really hate that though, and its not the left wing news nor the right wing news and its not the unbiased news. ITS ALL NEWS. what happened to the days of responsible reporting, when if they didn't know a fact they would just omit that piece of information until it was found out one way or the other? Wouldn't a better title for that news release (Before it was found out wtf was going on) have been "Possible terror attack averted" and then when they found out who did what and when they could have changed it. Why name Marines on day 1, Army day two and then for us to find out it was an airmen and a national guardsmen who did it
When was this day of supposed responsible reporting? Go back to major events-the Kennedy shooting are en excellent example. The reporting is always garbage initially, and sometimes just garbage.
Yellow journalism has gotten us into one war (Spanish American War) and potentially two others (Serbia, Iraq 1)
Frazzled wrote: When was this day of supposed responsible reporting? Go back to major events-the Kennedy shooting are en excellent example. The reporting is always garbage initially, and sometimes just garbage.
Yellow journalism has gotten us into one war (Spanish American War) and potentially two others (Serbia, Iraq 1)
Serbia?
I remember seeing the new footage playing on TV about Mogadishu and feel news media influence heavily into that decision for the UN and Clinton decision.
Serbia? Get mixed up with Bosnia and Kosovo?
Frazzled wrote: When was this day of supposed responsible reporting? Go back to major events-the Kennedy shooting are en excellent example. The reporting is always garbage initially, and sometimes just garbage.
Yellow journalism has gotten us into one war (Spanish American War) and potentially two others (Serbia, Iraq 1)
Serbia?
I remember seeing the new footage playing on TV about Mogadishu and feel news media influence heavily into that decision for the UN and Clinton decision.
Serbia? Get mixed up with Bosnia and Kosovo?
Considering it was Serbia being bombed, I call it Serbia.
Frazzled wrote: When was this day of supposed responsible reporting? Go back to major events-the Kennedy shooting are en excellent example. The reporting is always garbage initially, and sometimes just garbage. )
Yeah, I'd like to say that that it's a modern phenomenon since it seems to have gotten worse in the last decade. But then I think....
So is nobody going to give credit to a College Senior and a Professor for also taking part in this? Seriously, all of the headlines are screaming 'TWO US SERVICEMEN (and often misnaming their branches!) SAVE TRAIN' without noting that the college student, their friend, was every bit a part of this, and two others (including an American Professor) were also involved in seizing the gun.
Killionaire wrote: So is nobody going to give credit to a College Senior and a Professor for also taking part in this? Seriously, all of the headlines are screaming 'TWO US SERVICEMEN (and often misnaming their branches!) SAVE TRAIN' without noting that the college student, their friend, was every bit a part of this, and two others (including an American Professor) were also involved in seizing the gun.
Those others also recieved the Legion d'honneur, so I'd say that someone is giving them credit.
Just goes to show that the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is four good guys who will take his gun by force, repeatedly beat said bad guy over the head with the gun, and then hog tie him.
Well, maybe not the only thing, but it's definitely one of the most awesome methods.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Steve steveson wrote: Or it's not actually a kalashnikov but a cheap version made in Nigeria or Pakistan from tinfoil and coke cans.
I'm guessing a very large proportion of AK-47s in terrorist hands are not actually Kalashnikovs, but gakky copies. Actual Russian-made Kalashnikovs are probably relatively expensive.
Ahtman wrote: I read this entire thread. Perhaps I too should get some sort of recognition, being the hero that I am, having kept up with this discussion.
You're right. I award you the Legion d'inteurnettes!
I was talking to an Airmen today at the gym and he found it hilarious that France awarded their highest honor to these guys. Different countries different award requirements I guess, don't get me wrong, im well aware a lot of this is due to politics and international politics, but still. Would we give these guys the Medal of Honor if they did this in America? probably not, they would definitely get a bronze star, maybe even a silver star but I don't see them even getting the Navy cross let alone the CMH.
The Medal can't even be won by an American civilian, let alone a foreigner.
Also, to point out - while this is the 'highest honor' France awards; this is at the lowest grade. There are four grades above chevalier at which this can be assigned.
Freakazoitt wrote: It heard, AK was jammed after several shots. How it is possbile?
I've had my '74 hiccup on Vympel factory 5.45mm ammunition before, two stuck cases and a third where the case-head got torn off. It's possible to jam an AK, just harder than a lot of other designs and usually a lot easier to clear.
The Legion d'honneur is a general purpose award for merit that can be given for military or civilian actions. It is normally only given to French citizens.
The awards this time to four foreigners are a significant thanks for the prevention of another gun massacre by (presumably) Islamist extremists.
Kilkrazy wrote: The Legion d'honneur is a general purpose award for merit that can be given for military or civilian actions. It is normally only given to French citizens.
The awards this time to four foreigners are a significant thanks for the prevention of another gun massacre by (presumably) Islamist extremists.
I'm guessing nobody here is buying the suspect's "I'm a homeless man who found a case in a park with an AK-47 inside. I wanted to rob a train" story lol.
Because most robbers are known for shooting up their victims before trying to rob them.....
It's not a totally unreasonable claim. A French passenger spotted him and tried to disarm him, shots were fired and people started running. Maybe he panicked? It wouldn't be the first robber who lost his script when things didn't go as he planned.
Which is totally why he took 8 magazines, a pistol and a knife.
He certainly wasn't planning on using them
He also waited until the train crossed the French border, has known Islamist leanings and was a vocal supporter of Jihad on the watch list of several; intelligence agencies.
He also stripped ogff much of his clothing which would make a getaway less plausible.
Frazzled wrote: I love the whole "er yea I just found this AK."
In Belgium, no less.
I was not aware soviet-era assault rifles with spare ammunition were scattered all around Brussels.
It's not "soviet-era". AK47 variants are still made today around the world. They are favored by many groups of freedom fighters and terrorists along with quite a few third world governments. The reason being that the AK47 is easy to make, easy to work on and a reliable design, which still remains usable even when poorly made or maintained. The government of the USSR basically gave the design to any country who asked with vaguely communist leanings, and many of those (including the USSR) handed the guns out like candy to anyone who they thought would support them. After a while the design was so widely available, and so easy to back engineer, that they are made all over the world, of greater or lesser quality. It is estimated that 1 in 5 of ALL firearms in the world at the moment is some Kalashnikov variant.
Is it possible that he found it? Yes, I would say so. AK's are not exactly rare guns, and are used allot by terrorists and organized crime. Is it likely? Well, I guess that it will be easy to pull apart his story through background investigation.
Kilkrazy wrote: The Legion d'honneur is a general purpose award for merit that can be given for military or civilian actions. It is normally only given to French citizens.
The awards this time to four foreigners are a significant thanks for the prevention of another gun massacre by (presumably) Islamist extremists.
Very nice of them. Good on everyone involved for preventing what could have been a horrible tragedy.
Steve steveson wrote: Is it possible that he found it? Yes, I would say so. AK's are not exactly rare guns
Don't forget that he also found a pistol, magazines for the firearms, ammo, and a box cutter.
It's quite possible that he found weapons that intended for someone else. If someone had done a dead drop between terrorist cells for example. Homeless guy comes along, searching bins or whatever, and finds them. Unlikely, but not beyond the realms of possibility. If that is discounted then so is the possibility that there could be another person intent on harm who will just need to obtain more weapons.
Hopefully the police do a thorough investigation and are not swayed too much by the media or the conviction that he must be a terrorist.
Steve steveson wrote: Is it possible that he found it? Yes, I would say so. AK's are not exactly rare guns
Don't forget that he also found a pistol, magazines for the firearms, ammo, and a box cutter.
It's quite possible that he found weapons that intended for someone else. If someone had done a dead drop between terrorist cells for example. Homeless guy comes along, searching bins or whatever, and finds them. Unlikely, but not beyond the realms of possibility. If that is discounted then so is the possibility that there could be another person intent on harm who will just need to obtain more weapons.
Hopefully the police do a thorough investigation and are not swayed too much by the media or the conviction that he must be a terrorist.
I guess it is equally as likely that said homeless guy is on the terror watch lists of a couple different countries and also that he decides to take his newly found-by-chance weapons and rob a train instead of holding up a liquor store or drug dealer or random person in the area he typically hangs out in.
Kilkrazy wrote: The Legion d'honneur is a general purpose award for merit that can be given for military or civilian actions. It is normally only given to French citizens.
The awards this time to four foreigners are a significant thanks for the prevention of another gun massacre by (presumably) Islamist extremists.
I'm guessing nobody here is buying the suspect's "I'm a homeless man who found a case in a park with an AK-47 inside. I wanted to rob a train" story lol.
While its certainly possible, it would be a case of truth being way stranger than fiction and I doubt any Jury would buy that story unless there was like video surveillance of him stumbling across the guncase. And even then, it would be pretty easy to just say he was picking up the gun from a deaddrop and has an accomplice out there.
Steve steveson wrote: It's quite possible that he found weapons that intended for someone else.
Anything is possible, and if the standard for things was "is it possible?" no one would ever be found guilty of anything. I don't mind speculation but you did leave a lot out of what was found, which is what I was referring to; he didn't just find an AK.
Steve steveson wrote: Hopefully the police do a thorough investigation and are not swayed too much by the media or the conviction that he must be a terrorist.
Shouldn't that be true of pretty much any instance?
Ouze wrote: I once found $20 on the floor at the mall, on the food court.
Ah but did you also find a $10, a $5, and a $1 also at the same place at the same time?
One of the American guys is coming back to the states and apparently lives one town over from me. Going by what I've seen on social media, that guy is about to be avalanched in booty propositions.
Its good to have heroes, even if its just for a little while.
Hopefully the police do a thorough investigation and are not swayed too much by the media or the conviction that he must be a terrorist.
If you go on a train and shoot unarmed civilians (which this guy did) and slash up unarmed civilians with a blade (which this guy did), then you are a terrorist. Period. Full stop.
Hopefully the police do a thorough investigation and are not swayed too much by the media or the conviction that he must be a terrorist.
If you go on a train and shoot unarmed civilians (which this guy did) and slash up unarmed civilians with a blade (which this guy did), then you are a terrorist. Period. Full stop.
No. Just no. Terrorism requires intent, if a crazy dude walks onto a train and shoots a bunch of people that doesn't make him a terrorist. There has to be an intent to terrorize the populace (hence the name).
Steve steveson wrote: It's quite possible that he found weapons that intended for someone else.
Anything is possible, and if the standard for things was "is it possible?" no one would ever be found guilty of anything. I don't mind speculation but you did leave a lot out of what was found, which is what I was referring to; he didn't just find an AK.
.
Asking if something is possible is part of the legal system and how we test "beyond reasonable doubt". If something is a possible alternative then you have reasonable doubt. If you base it on speculation, which is all the terrorist claims were at the time (more evidence has since come out) then that is a very bad legal system.
Steve steveson wrote: Hopefully the police do a thorough investigation and are not swayed too much by the media or the conviction that he must be a terrorist.
Shouldn't that be true of pretty much any instance?
It should be, but it isn't. Look at some of the witch hunts we have had.
Hopefully the police do a thorough investigation and are not swayed too much by the media or the conviction that he must be a terrorist.
If you go on a train and shoot unarmed civilians (which this guy did) and slash up unarmed civilians with a blade (which this guy did), then you are a terrorist. Period. Full stop.
"terrorism
ˈtɛrərɪzəm/
noun
the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."
Peter Wiggin wrote: One of the American guys is coming back to the states and apparently lives one town over from me. Going by what I've seen on social media, that guy is about to be avalanched in booty propositions.
Its good to have heroes, even if its just for a little while.
Hopefully the police do a thorough investigation and are not swayed too much by the media or the conviction that he must be a terrorist.
If you go on a train and shoot unarmed civilians (which this guy did) and slash up unarmed civilians with a blade (which this guy did), then you are a terrorist. Period. Full stop.
It only makes you a terrorist if you are bent on some socio-political agenda. You can be a violent criminal (mental issue? Who knows? I'm not qualified to speak on that) and do something like this. History is full of mass murderers and serial killers without a political agenda.
Hopefully the police do a thorough investigation and are not swayed too much by the media or the conviction that he must be a terrorist.
If you go on a train and shoot unarmed civilians (which this guy did) and slash up unarmed civilians with a blade (which this guy did), then you are a terrorist. Period. Full stop.
"terrorism
ˈtɛrərɪzəm/
noun
the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
There's a reason the term "narcoterrorism" exists.
In its original context, narcoterrorism is understood to mean the attempts of narcotics traffickers to influence the policies of a government or a society through violence and intimidation, and to hinder the enforcement of anti-drug laws by the systematic threat or use of such violence. Pablo Escobar's violence in his dealings with the Colombian government is probably one of the best known and best documented examples of narcoterrorism.
Kanluwen wrote: There's a reason the term "narcoterrorism" exists.
Terrorism does not strictly equate to politics.
Yeah, but... you're using a different word to explain how the original word has multiple meanings... which actually solidifies the case that the original word has a specific meaning.
Absent the rationale for why he tried to do what he tried to, it seems a little early to bust out the T word. Wait, the other T word.
Sure it has side effects of political changes, by the ultimate goal is to further the drug business, not cause any political changes for the sake of political change.
Sure it has side effects of political changes, by the ultimate goal is to further the drug business, not cause any political changes for the sake of political change.
The drug business was impacted by political actions. The Traficantes wanted to change those political actions to further their business. Thus, narcoterrorism. It is explicitly a targeted action in order to drive political change.
Kanluwen wrote: There's a reason the term "narcoterrorism" exists.
Terrorism does not strictly equate to politics.
Yeah, but... you're using a different word to explain how the original word has multiple meanings... which actually solidifies the case that the original word has a specific meaning.
Most words that are politically charged have "multiple meanings". To pull from strictly Dictionary.com, here are the definitions of terrorism:
noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
There is also a British dictionary definition for terrorism:
noun
1.
systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve some goal
2.
the act of terrorizing
3.
the state of being terrorized
The reason I bring up the term "narcoterrorism" is because that while there is a bit of a political element to narcoterrorism--law enforcement generally defines narcoterrorism in a different manner than what it seems some here are under the impression it means.
Page 23 "Terrorism and Organized Hate Crime: Intelligence Gathering, Analysis, and Investigations" 2nd Edition by Michael R. Ronczkowski wrote:
Narcoterrorism---Terrorist acts conducted in an attempt to divert attention from illegal drug and narcotic operations. This term is usually applied to groups that use the drug trade to fund terrorism.
Steve steveson wrote: Asking if something is possible is part of the legal system and how we test "beyond reasonable doubt". If something is a possible alternative then you have reasonable doubt. If you base it on speculation, which is all the terrorist claims were at the time (more evidence has since come out) then that is a very bad legal system.
As you say it can't just be doubt it has to be a reasonable doubt, and accidentally finding all those weapons and then going after people on a train isn't really all that reasonable. It is possible, just not reasonably so.
Steve steveson wrote: Asking if something is possible is part of the legal system and how we test "beyond reasonable doubt". If something is a possible alternative then you have reasonable doubt. If you base it on speculation, which is all the terrorist claims were at the time (more evidence has since come out) then that is a very bad legal system.
As you say it can't just be doubt it has to be a reasonable doubt, and accidentally finding all those weapons and then going after people on a train isn't really all that reasonable. It is possible, just not reasonably so.
Add in he was on more than one watch lists and had been watching Jihad videos (including one right before he did this) and I submit if you have a doubt you're unreasonable.
Today authorities in France said El-Khazzani had watched a radical Islamic video just before he threatened to shoot, as they opened the case against him.
The armed man accused of attacking an Amsterdam-to-Paris train last week watched a YouTube video calling for Jihad before boarding the train, officials said today.
Alleged gunman Ayoub El-Khazzani watched the video on his cellphone, they added, which was activated the same day of the attack.
I wonder if he found that new phone with the guns and activated it then accidentally watched the jihad video while surfing for videos of kittens?
The man was placed on a watch list by French authorities after their Spanish counterparts flagged up his involvement with radical Islamists in February 2014.
I understand im naturally biased because I am a US Marine but why do about half the news stories for this reference "Soldier" and not Marine? They are not the same.
