I'm thinking probably grey Knights.

What do you guys think?

In what arena and setting, against who and with how much time for preparation? Also, what does 'power' mean in this context? Physical power or something more generalist?

The Ultramarines. They are the greatest of all Astartes.

Assuming fluffwise, it is Grey Knights, and it is not even close. Grey Knights utterly wipe the floor with other Astartes.

Gamewise, probably Ultramarines. They have Tigurius and their tactics synergise well with Skyhammer and grav centurions.

Fluff wise-Grey knights
Rules wise- Red scorpions (FNP on tac squads, Carab culln giving everyone LD10...Oh and Sevrin Loth, He would Stomp tigirus in a 1v1 (Picks Psychic powers and activates 2++ invun))

Is this 1v1 Grey Knights versus other chapter? If not, Grey Knights don't win out by that much. Their main strength is as daemonhunters. Apart from that and their psychic potential, they are pretty much just psychically warded Terminators. But then I'm going GK vs Dark Angels (who are pretty much a legion in their own right) or UM (calling on their descendants to aid them) or Space Wolves (who did actually fend off the GK in the aftermath of the 1st Armageddon War.)

I'd give the BA an edge over GK fluff-wise because Dante is a military genius. And fluff-wise, BA like to field a lot of weapons that crack terminator armor easily.

In terms of current tabletop power? basic Space Marines win.

In terms of background material? GK's as far as a single unique flavor goes.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd give the BA an edge over GK fluff-wise because Dante is a military genius. And fluff-wise, BA like to field a lot of weapons that crack terminator armor easily.

To be fair,, supposedly every SM chapter master is made out to be some sort of military super genius, and GK Grand Masters used to have very powerful special rules to back that up with their "Grand Strategy" thingy. Also, lots of SM's field lots of "terminator cracking" weapons.

This is the reason I wanted a setting. UM are better at most tactics, but a Black Templar would win most challengers in one-on-one ritualized close combat. Which of them is the more powerful?

" every SM chapter master is made out to be some sort of military super genius"

But to whom do they cede command to when the gak hits the fan? Just sayin'. I think GK are too specialized to be effective against non-daemons myself.

Martel732 wrote:
" every SM chapter master is made out to be some sort of military super genius"

But to whom do they cede command to when the gak hits the fan? Just sayin'.

Depends on the author and codex/book

I think GK are too specialized to be effective against non-daemons myself.

They're effective against lots of things, a Force Weapon will kill a Carnifex or Warboss dead just as easily as it will a Daemon Prince. They're just a lot choosier in what they'll fight against.

I think GK are too specialized to be effective against non-daemons myself.

They're effective against lots of things, a Force Weapon will kill a Carnifex or Warboss dead just as easily as it will a Daemon Prince. They're just a lot choosier in what they'll fight against.

GK are largely specialised for killing demons, they would struggle in larger wars

Individually imma say Sons of Antaeus

 The Wise Dane wrote:

Well that's exactly the problem. Against one Carnifex, a single regular Grey Knight has a higher chance than any other Space Marine to kill it, but then again, a Terminator with a Thunder Hammer could propably also do a lot of damage, if not outright kill it. Even a Centurion with drills could mush it up... And we're still talking one marine.¨

Aye, but other chapters aren't full of 1000 Terminators or 1000 Centurions, each GK has a Force Weapon.

Your point isn't invalid, but at the same time, we're talking about extremely tiny forces in general here, particularly on any sort of galactic scale.

GAdvance wrote:
GK are largely specialised for killing demons, they would struggle in larger wars

All Space Marine chapters would struggle in long wars.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd give the BA an edge over GK fluff-wise because Dante is a military genius. And fluff-wise, BA like to field a lot of weapons that crack terminator armor easily.

GK are also very overstrength, possibly by as many as 2000 brothers. I don't see any way the BA win that one. Yeah Dante is cool but Draigo has performed open heart surgery on a primarch before, so I'd call that one a wash.

 Silverthorne wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd give the BA an edge over GK fluff-wise because Dante is a military genius. And fluff-wise, BA like to field a lot of weapons that crack terminator armor easily.

GK are also very overstrength, possibly by as many as 2000 brothers. I don't see any way the BA win that one. Yeah Dante is cool but Draigo has performed open heart surgery on a primarch before, so I'd call that one a wash.

Draigo is lost in the warp isn't he? I've also always assumed chapter strength to be at least 1,000,000 regardless of the numbers in the fluff just so marines make any difference in a galactic theater at all. They'd likely need more like 1,000,000,000 space marines for each chapter to mean a thing.

I'm going to say a Chaos Space Marine Mutilator. I bet they could win any arm wrestling challenge. That's obviously the most powerful.

Well, in the fluff the GK are described to outclass regular Astartes pretty hard individually. They also have the nigh unlimited resources, basically getting any weaponry... or pretty much anything they require to do their duty from the Imperium. Psykers are described to be some of the most powerful beings there are, and all of them are Psykers, too.

Personally I kinda have a feeling that your average Astartes would just roll over and whimper before the duel would even begin, while the GK just stands there with his hand glowing all blue and stuff. Knowing only the Hammerhand psychic power ingame is merely descriptive ( and for gaming purposes ) - I got a strong feeling they can assault a mind with ease, as in vaurious books such tricks have been made by psykers far less competent than a GK, and they have taken down an Astartes with said psychic assault.

But, the regular Astartes would probably win, as the GK's brothers would instantly kill him for attacking another Astartes. The regulars brothers would instead wonder who the feck that steel armoured warrior was, as GK are pretty much a myth to everyone except themselves and rarely witnessed even by other Astartes.

I see a lot of people saying GK. Bammmmmm logan grimnar just decapitated you.

The answer is always the Adeptus Custodes. I don't care that they aren't Space Marines; they're better than Space Marines.

I think fluff wise it would be Minotaurs as I hardly count gk as marines and more as inquisition. However Minotaurs excel in eradication of renegade chapters as they tend to call themselves emperor's executioners.

Well, the GK are all psykers, that's pretty awesome. But I can't see them doing as well against a siege as the Imperial Fists or as well as a flanking force than the White Scars, etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:
All Space Marine chapters would struggle in long wars.

There are chapters dedicated to seige warfare, something the GK's with only landraiders and conversion beamers for proper heavy weaponry would struggle to deal with

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I'm thinking probably grey Knights.

Why?

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I'm thinking probably grey Knights.

Why?

Because their recruitment is more brutal, they all are psykers, and they get the best equipment in the imperium.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I'm thinking probably grey Knights.

What do you guys think?

adeptus custodes, technically they are space marines, and to put things plainly.

One on one, a iron hand veteran?

By the end there killer cyborgs with intelligence of as marine, extreme strength through cybernetics and upgrades.

Plus they have a very good relationship with Mars, and it has some very powerful weapons and armour available aty its discretion

The obvious answer to "who is the most powerful Space Marine?" is Sly Marbo.

The minotaurs chapter probably as they are all about beating up other marines. That or the Deathwatch as they draw the best of all the chapters and give them tons of awesome gear.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I'm thinking probably grey Knights.

Why?

Because their recruitment is more brutal, they all are psykers, and they get the best equipment in the imperium.

They get maybe the fourth or fifth best. The Adeptus Mechanicus and the Custodes have technology the Grey Knights could only dream of. (The Custodes still have a fleet of grav vehicles at year 40,000.) The difference is that the Grey Knight's tech is specialized for daemon hunting and nothing else.

The Lamenters... they aaaaalways win!

Wow, what a mess going on in here. Time for some cleaning.

 DarkHound wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I'm thinking probably grey Knights.

Why?

Because their recruitment is more brutal, they all are psykers, and they get the best equipment in the imperium.

They get maybe the fourth or fifth best. The Adeptus Mechanicus and the Custodes have technology the Grey Knights could only dream of. (The Custodes still have a fleet of grav vehicles at year 40,000.) The difference is that the Grey Knight's tech is specialized for daemon hunting and nothing else.

People still believe this?

Again.

Codex Grey Knights wrote:Of all the armies of the Imperium, the Grey Knights can boast to have the most technologically advanced and murderously efficient weaponry under their command.

There. Question resolved. GK tech > Mechanicus tech. The codex is full of quotes like that, by the way, and it's really a pick and choose.

As for the thread.

To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight -- an altogether more superlative warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Astartes are above the common run of Mankind.

Also from the codex, Terminator entry.

GKs are best at fighting daemons, but this specialisation does not come at the cost of adaptability. They are especially good at fighting daemons, but they will still beat up just about anything else.
They are often depicted as attacking targets of opportunity when returning from priority daemonic targets, as well as fighting other foes when they block the way. And they excel at it.

/thread

 Ashiraya wrote:
Wow, what a mess going on in here. Time for some cleaning.

 DarkHound wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I'm thinking probably grey Knights.

Why?

Because their recruitment is more brutal, they all are psykers, and they get the best equipment in the imperium.

They get maybe the fourth or fifth best. The Adeptus Mechanicus and the Custodes have technology the Grey Knights could only dream of. (The Custodes still have a fleet of grav vehicles at year 40,000.) The difference is that the Grey Knight's tech is specialized for daemon hunting and nothing else.

People still believe this?

Again.

Codex Grey Knights wrote:Of all the armies of the Imperium, the Grey Knights can boast to have the most technologically advanced and murderously efficient weaponry under their command.

There. Question resolved. GK tech > Mechanicus tech. The codex is full of quotes like that, by the way, and it's really a pick and choose.

As for the thread.

To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight -- an altogether more superlative warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Astartes are above the common run of Mankind.

Also from the codex, Terminator entry.

GKs are best at fighting daemons, but this specialisation does not come at the cost of adaptability. They are especially good at fighting daemons, but they will still beat up just about anything else.
They are often depicted as attacking targets of opportunity when returning from priority daemonic targets, as well as fighting other foes when they block the way. And they excel at it.

/thread

Spoiler:

As for custodes, it's possible their obscene combat skills may match the GK psychic powers, but it doesn't matter because custodes are not space marines.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I'm thinking probably grey Knights.

Why?

Dat 5E Codex.

We all saw that one, right?

Tbh, I was hoping this would turn out to be one of those "my Chapter Master could beat up your Chapter Master!" threads. Those are hilarious and rage-inducing in equal measure.

So grey knights are the most powerful space marines then.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
So grey knights are the most powerful space marines then.

Only based off some dubious fluff. From their job description, they should be one of the weakest vs non-daemons.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
So grey knights are the most powerful space marines then.

It is not up for debate. The Codex states it in black and white all over the place.

It also can't be propaganda because the GK are fething secret. You can't have propaganda about secrets, if you do they are no longer secret. Unless you believe High Lord X wrote the codex as propaganda for High Lord Y. And I really, seriously doubt that, because High Lord Y knows everything High Lord X knows.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
So grey knights are the most powerful space marines then.

It is not up for debate. The Codex states it in black and white all over the place.

It also can't be propaganda because the GK are fething secret. You can't have propaganda about secrets, if you do they are no longer secret. Unless you believe High Lord X wrote the codex as propaganda for High Lord Y. Yeah. Totally.

I find myself not caring what the Grey Knight codex has to say, though. As I said, some dubious fluff says they are, but in any kind of rational setting, it doesn't make sense.

GK are so secret I fought them constantly in 5th ed, lol.

Martel732 wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
So grey knights are the most powerful space marines then.

Only based off some dubious fluff. From their job description, they should be one of the weakest vs non-daemons.

No, they are simply even better at killing Daemons than they are at killing everything else.

Martel732 wrote:
I find myself not caring what the Grey Knight codex has to say, though. As I said, some dubious fluff says they are, but in any kind of rational setting, it doesn't make sense.

Rational setting? 40k? wtf

And if you don't care what the codex says, then why should we care what the BA or SM or SW or DA codex says?

 Ashiraya wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
So grey knights are the most powerful space marines then.

Only based off some dubious fluff. From their job description, they should be one of the weakest vs non-daemons.

No, they are simply even better at killing Daemons than they are at killing everything else.

I'm not buying it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just because GW is not rational doesn't mean I have to be irrational.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not buying it.

You don't have to. It doesn't become less true because Martel732 doesn't believe it.

You don't have to believe the sun is bigger than Earth either, but it is.

"then why should we care what the BA or SM or SW or DA codex says?"

Good question. I can say this: If we pretend there are millions of space marines instead of hundreds, then those stories begin to become rational. GK fluff, as far as I can tell, is a bunch of fanboi fanfic that makes little sense. It all comes to down to personal preference I suppose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not buying it.

You don't have to. It doesn't become less true because Martel732 doesn't believe it.

You don't have to believe the sun is bigger than Earth either, but it is.

Except the sun isn't some nonsense GW vomited forth to sell models.

No way. The sun is like... 4 inches across. I see it every day.

I don't really have anything more to say. I have given you my position, and I have given you evidence to back it up. Disregard it if you desire, it doesn't really matter.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't really have anything more to say. I have given you my position, and I have given you evidence to back it up. Disregard it if you desire, it doesn't really matter.

No, it doesn't. To be honest, I really hate GW's fluff and setting anyway. I personally really hate the GK, so I'm prone to disregard whatever crazy claims GW makes about them. I'm my mind, they are cowardly pretender gimps. Which, to me, makes more sense than what they actually wrote, which is pathetic fiction writing.

I'm gonna reason Ultramarines - we all know they have the most faith in Teh Emprah and Teh Kodecs Asstarts.

And as we can see in all BL novels, the more of either of those you have, the better you are.

Really, unless you ignore the fluff anyway the space marines don't matter at all since there are too few of them to ever matter.

Why do you hate GK so much? Models are dope, and they're the purist of heart.

Also canonically, are the most powerful astartes

GK covered in SoB blood > SoB > GK > All other SM

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Why do you hate GK so much? Models are dope, and they're the purist of heart.

Also canonically, are the most powerful astartes

They're johnny-come-lates that allegedly trump all the other marines. Whatever. They also were packing force weapons when all the demons had eternal warrior. Brilliant guys, just brilliant.

"they're the purist of heart. "

You mean the most brainwashed.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Why do you hate GK so much? Models are dope, and they're the purist of heart.

I don't like Mary Sues very much. Ultramarines are the Chief Sue in 40k. And GK are High Lord Commanders of all Mary Sues.

 Selym wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Why do you hate GK so much? Models are dope, and they're the purist of heart.

I don't like Mary Sues very much. Ultramarines are the Chief Sue in 40k. And GK are High Lord Commanders of all Mary Sues.

I guess that's a better way to say it. Mary Sues.

There. Question resolved. GK tech > Mechanicus tech. The codex is full of quotes like that, by the way, and it's really a pick and choose.

You're misreading that quote.

Codex Grey Knights wrote:Of all the armies of the Imperium, the Grey Knights can boast to have the most technologically advanced and murderously efficient weaponry under their command.

The AdMech isn't an army of the Imperium. While it possesses its own military resources, those resources are its to do with as it pleases. Usually, these goals line up with those of the Imperium... but, when they do not, the AdMech is not required to send Titans to support a campaign they do not agree with. They are an empire within the Imperium... and, as empires go, are far older than the Imperium itself.

The distinction is irrelevant because you are almost but not quite right. Mechanicus armed forces are armies of the imperium.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus

Read the first part of the overview. It is only -almost- a separate mini-imperium; it is still part of the main thing.

How are they Mary Sues? They slaughter surviving allies after the battle is won so they remain secretive. If I was a guardsmen or even a ultramarine, if I saw GK drop from the heavens I'd probably poo a little.

GK are fairly marty stu yeah, but it's irrelevant to the topic.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
How are they Mary Sues? They slaughter surviving allies after the battle is won so they remain secretive. If I was a guardsmen or even a ultramarine, if I saw GK drop from the heavens I'd probably poo a little.

Until they lose to said allies. Very Mary Sue.

Martel732 wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
How are they Mary Sues? They slaughter surviving allies after the battle is won so they remain secretive. If I was a guardsmen or even a ultramarine, if I saw GK drop from the heavens I'd probably poo a little.

Until they lose to said allies. Very Mary Sue.

They eat those allies alive!

In the game, the GK losing in that situation is a plausible outcome.

In the fluff, I have yet to find any examples of such an occurence.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
How are they Mary Sues? They slaughter surviving allies after the battle is won so they remain secretive. If I was a guardsmen or even a ultramarine, if I saw GK drop from the heavens I'd probably poo a little.

Until they lose to said allies. Very Mary Sue.

They eat those allies alive!

And wear them as hats. Because:

Blood Sacrifice + Marty Stu = Anti-Khorne Weapon

Apparently.

Grey Knights may be the best, but they aren't everywhere.

No single force in the Imperium could beat all others. None. So yeah, sure Grey Knights are the best Space Marines. But there are only ~1000 of them. Not sure if the OP is trying to make a point or not, it sounds like they are, but bear in mind that Grey Knights still rely on having Guardsmen to occupy worlds and act as a buffer force, Space Marines to be there more times than the Grey Knights ever were, Adeptus Mechanicus to create munitions and equipment, Inquisition to find these heretical cults and whatnot, Imperial Navy to keep the stars cleanish, Sisters of Battle to root out heretics and guard the Ministorum, Ministorum to keep the Guardsmen placated, so on, so forth.

The Grey Knights need everything else, but the Imperium could still endure without the Grey Knights.

Let's be generous and say there's 1,000,000 GKs. That's still barely enough to hold a front on one continent of one planet. And a smart opponent would just nuke them anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
Really, unless you ignore the fluff anyway the space marines don't matter at all since there are too few of them to ever matter.

Correct, when you use IRL logic.
Incorrect when you use 40k logic, which has a mind of its own. And we don't need to go in depth into 40k logic in this thread.

Martel732 wrote:
Let's be generous and say there's 1,000,000 GKs. That's still barely enough to hold a front on one continent of one planet. And a smart opponent would just nuke them anyway.

The same can be said of all the other ~1,000,000 actual marines.

Even 2,000,000 would have the same issue.

It is irrelevant how well a chapter would do against the rest of the Imperium. The topic is which Space Marines are the most powerful.

Terminator invulnerable save would block the nuke IMO.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Really, unless you ignore the fluff anyway the space marines don't matter at all since there are too few of them to ever matter.

Correct, when you use IRL logic.
Incorrect when you use 40k logic, which has a mind of its own. And we don't need to go in depth into 40k logic in this thread.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It is irrelevant how well a chapter would do against the rest of the Imperium. The topic is which Space Marines are the most powerful.

Which I believe we have conclusively found out. Much to my personal dislike of GK, but they are by technicality, the most powerful.

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Let's be generous and say there's 1,000,000 GKs. That's still barely enough to hold a front on one continent of one planet. And a smart opponent would just nuke them anyway.

The same can be said of all the other ~1,000,000 actual marines.

Even 2,000,000 would have the same issue.

That's why there must be billions of them, contrary to the fluff.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
It is irrelevant how well a chapter would do against the rest of the Imperium. The topic is which Space Marines are the most powerful.

Which I believe we have conclusively found out. Much to my personal dislike of GK, but they are by technicality, the most powerful.

Woot!

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Terminator invulnerable save would block the nuke IMO.

5++. The nuke kills 2/3 of all Terminators. But apparently, nukes aren't used in 40k (save Deathstrike Missiles) so this isn't necessary.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Terminator invulnerable save would block the nuke IMO.

5++. The nuke kills 2/3 of all Terminators. But apparently, nukes aren't used in 40k (save Deathstrike Missiles) so this isn't necessary.

No, a nuke would be a D weapon that always rolls a "6". Terminator armor is actually quite poor.

Martel732 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Terminator invulnerable save would block the nuke IMO.

5++. The nuke kills 2/3 of all Terminators. But apparently, nukes aren't used in 40k (save Deathstrike Missiles) so this isn't necessary.

No, a nuke would be a D weapon that always rolls a "6". Terminator armor is actually quite poor.

Deathstrike Missiles are nukes. They should have D, but seeing as they currently don't, we can't really say that.
Still sucks though.

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Let's be generous and say there's 1,000,000 GKs. That's still barely enough to hold a front on one continent of one planet. And a smart opponent would just nuke them anyway.

The same can be said of all the other ~1,000,000 actual marines.

Even 2,000,000 would have the same issue.

That's why there must be billions of them, contrary to the fluff.

Or, we just accept that ~1000 Marines does what they do in fluff and forget how ridiculous GW fluff is.
I'd rather just accept GW fluff with a "just because it does" than break that fluff.
Ignorance is bliss, they do say.

I'd have to think in honesty that the most powerful chapter would be the Dark Angels, since they engage in Legion building and are much, much larger in that way than any other force of Marines.

"Or, we just accept that ~1000 Marines does what they do in fluff and forget how ridiculous GW fluff is. "

I can't do that. 1000 marines is physically incapable of doing anything they claim in any of the fluff. They couldn't even take a present day Earth city, I'd wager.

"Deathstrike Missiles are nukes. They should have D, but seeing as they currently don't, we can't really say that. . "

Yeah, I can, because I know what nukes really do. And they do way more than what Deathstrike missiles do in the game.

"I'd rather just accept GW fluff with a "just because it does" than break that fluff. "

Nope. Because it is terrible fiction anyway.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Or, we just accept that ~1000 Marines does what they do in fluff and forget how ridiculous GW fluff is.
I'd rather just accept GW fluff with a "just because it does" than break that fluff.
Ignorance is bliss, they do say.

GW stuff requires a lot of handwaving and suspension of disbelief. But... There are times whee even my Disbelief cannot be Suspended:

I, in general, refuse to suspend my disbelief for anything. I don't accept hand waving, either.

 j31c3n wrote:
I'd have to think in honesty that the most powerful chapter would be the Dark Angels, since they engage in Legion building and are much, much larger in that way than any other force of Marines.

But that isn't the Dark Angels. That's Dark Angels and successors.
Rules as written, Dark Angels still only number around 1000 marines, as per codex astartes.

Martel732 wrote:
I, in general, refuse to suspend my disbelief for anything. I don't accept hand waving, either.

So how do you greet people?

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I, in general, refuse to suspend my disbelief for anything. I don't accept hand waving, either.

So how do you greet people?

I accept physical hand waving, but not intellectual.

Martel732 wrote:
I, in general, refuse to suspend my disbelief for anything. I don't accept hand waving, either.

That's your opinion, which is fine, but holds no place in a fluff argument, regardless of your headcanons or personal beliefs.
I don't like GK either, or 40k's wacked-out scale, but it is the fluff, and the fluff is law.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I, in general, refuse to suspend my disbelief for anything. I don't accept hand waving, either.

That's your opinion, which is fine, but holds no place in a fluff argument, regardless of your headcanons or personal beliefs.
I don't like GK either, or 40k's wacked-out scale, but it is the fluff, and the fluff is law.

If the fluff were law, then terminators wouldn't be terrible. Whacked-out scale doesn't fly no matter what they print in their over-priced books. So it's not my law, certainly. I usually consider tabletop >>> fluff anyway, which makes the marines an ever bigger joke. Eldar would lay waste to a dozen chapters in a week.

Martel732 wrote:
If the fluff were law, then terminators wouldn't be terrible. Whacked-out scale doesn't fly no matter what they print in their over-priced books. So it's not my law, certainly.

If fluff were law, players couldn't build min-maxed armies in the first place!

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the fluff were law, then terminators wouldn't be terrible. Whacked-out scale doesn't fly no matter what they print in their over-priced books. So it's not my law, certainly.

If fluff were law, players couldn't build min-maxed armies in the first place!

GW's fluff has always been a joke and will always be a joke. At least in my mind. Where's you fluff when the Eldar are packing dozens of scatterlasers? Nowhere, that's where.

 j31c3n wrote:
I'd have to think in honesty that the most powerful chapter would be the Dark Angels, since they engage in Legion building and are much, much larger in that way than any other force of Marines.

The Dark Angels Legion would win, yes. Formally they are not one, however.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
I'd have to think in honesty that the most powerful chapter would be the Dark Angels, since they engage in Legion building and are much, much larger in that way than any other force of Marines.

The Dark Angels Legion would win, yes. Formally they are not one, however.

What about the Templars?

We all know that the only reason GW retconned their numbers was so that they could call them codex-adherent. There's probably quite a few large crusades out there, with possible offshoot crusades, too.

No idea, because we do not know how many they are.

I think it's pretty bull to just accept that GK's are the best because the codex says they are just so amazing without actually listing their capabilities, how do they deal with armour... worse than pretty much every chapter, how do they deal with being shot... same as any normal space marine

They are pretty clearly a specialised force for fighting demons that happen to be space marines with a limited but powerful armoury

You list game mechanics. Psycannons and daemonhammers deal with vehicles just fine in the fluff, as do their own armoured support.

There is no bull about it.

Dread knights are pretty awesome against armor too. So is are 9 ap2 Draigo with hammer hand.

No game mechanics please.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Ultramarines. They are the greatest of all Astartes.

Old school Thousand Sons. All the advantages of every other space marine, plus as much psyker juice as they could handle.

Fluffwise 40K grey knights aren't even all that good at dealing with daemons, but they're the best of what's available.

I was never talking about rules, i mean organisationally they cannot fight armour

The chapter simply doesn't carry weapons for dealing with armoured forces en masse, they have enough to deal with them in a limited way but a daemonhammer only goes so far

Psycannons don't kill Leman Russes in the fluff do they?

GAdvance wrote:
I was never talking about rules, i mean organisationally they cannot fight armour

The chapter simply doesn't carry weapons for dealing with armoured forces en masse, they have enough to deal with them in a limited way but a daemonhammer only goes so far

Psycannons don't kill Leman Russes in the fluff do they?

Of course they do. As do daemon hammers in fluff, and dread Knights, oh and melta bombs too. Oh an their psychic vortex of doom. List goes on.

Yeah, psykers are toned down in the game for balance but in the background they are hideously powerful. They can throw around tanks like dolls, whereas the most powerful can fly up through the atmosphere and cleave a starship with their sword.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, psykers are toned down in the game for balance but in the background they are hideously powerful. They can throw around tanks like dolls, whereas the most powerful can fly up through the atmosphere and cleave a starship with their sword.

Always thought it'd be cooler if Psychic powers were Fantasy-grade powerful. Right now, they are a lot weaker than most weapons...

Some are amazing. Force, sanctuary, invisibility, prescience, iron arm.

 heshman wrote:
Old school Thousand Sons. All the advantages of every other space marine, plus as much psyker juice as they could handle.

This if we speak per marine. But in 40K and by chapter maybe Dark Angels. Because they command their successors too and are superb keeping secrets.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Some are amazing. Force, sanctuary, invisibility, prescience, iron arm.

True - But more destructive stuff. Something like the Comet of Cassandra or the Purple Sun of Xerecexerex or whatever.

I agree, that would be awesome. Tone down on silly buffs like Invisibility, make Psykers expensive, and give them fireworks to play with.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, psykers are toned down in the game for balance but in the background they are hideously powerful. They can throw around tanks like dolls, whereas the most powerful can fly up through the atmosphere and cleave a starship with their sword.

Nnnnoooooooo.

No.

Not all psykers are the same; and even telekines are rarely powerful enough to throw around tanks (though I say rarely, they're still probably more common than Space Marines and certainly more common than Librarians). Many psykers have other specialties, such as pyrokines, biomancers, diviners, etc. It varies based upon the soul of the psyker in question. The only thing common to all psykers would be daemon contracts / daemon summoning, because daemons are non-discriminatory soulsuckers.

One interesting idea would be to use the idea from FFG about different levels of caution-- fettered, unfettered, and push. The former has no risks, but you can generally only cast basic powers; the second has basic risk, and you can cast most powers. The latter, Push, is very risky, but allows you to cast your most powerful poewrs, and even your weaker ones become more powerful.

I'd swing forwards Black Templar. Because In all I have read they always take on ridiculous challenges, like absolutely zero chance challenges and generally do a pretty damn good job.

Or Iron Fist, they aren't very susceptible to pskers since they are half machine and because of their reinforced body's I would think they would fair extremely well again a regular marine.

Echo0455 wrote:
I'd swing forwards Black Templar. Because In all I have read they always take on ridiculous challenges, like absolutely zero chance challenges and generally do a pretty damn good job.

Or Iron Fist, they aren't very susceptible to pskers since they are half machine and because of their reinforced body's I would think they would fair extremely well again a regular marine.

I'd assume that the reason BT usually win challanges with sure a low success rate is mainly plot armour. Or the challenge wasn't that hard anyway.

Iron Hands (I think this was who you were referring to) are slightly more durable than a standard marine, yes, but any standard power armoured astartes will struggle against a Grey Knight due to the vastly different loadout Grey Knights receive as standard.

Regular Marine:


vs

Grey Knight:


Not really a fair fight, but hey, it is a typical Grey Knight's wargear.

Psychic ability is wargear now?

And Terminator Armour is standard?

The average grey knights physic ability is actually pretty heavily curtailed so they are more easily controllable as well, i really don't buy that they are so clearly individually superior to all other astartes in all situations, and they DO clearly lack the weapons for large scale combats that other chapters have as standard

BT's are a good bet though, they have higher numbers a wide variety of worlds applicants so stronger marines and very dangerous training methods more so than usual, they are a little... one track though, they aren't exactly smart

I am assuming fluff.

1. Grey Knights or Space Wolves: feats are equal
2. Iron Hands: mentioned that their bionics increase their strength threefold, are more durable, etc.
3. Minotaurs: Dedicated Space Marine killers, have as many relics as a Founding Chapter.
4. Salamanders: Artisans of wargear, when you got two people of equal strength the gear you have matters.

-Blood Angels don't make top 5 because of the Black Rage, too much of a liability.
-Ultramarines are Jack-of-all-trades and besides Titus are supposedly by the codex. This can be exploited.
-Dark Angels if we count their links to the successors would be amazing, but then Ultramarines would be better still.
-Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, don't have enough feats to rank properly. Rather we have individuals from those codices that are focused on.

Custodes... aren't really Space Marines, they're better, and there are 10,000 of them.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
And Terminator Armour is standard?

For GK, it is.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
And Terminator Armour is standard?

For GK, it is.

I mean, yeah, they have a lot of them, but their standard equipment is still Aegis Power Armour.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
And Terminator Armour is standard?

For GK, it is.

I mean, yeah, they have a lot of them, but their standard equipment is still Aegis Power Armour.

Nope. The Terminators are the backbone of the army, with PA troops used as specialists or when extra mobility is required. It is explained in their codex entry.

GK can outfit everyone in Terminator armor. In fact, originally (RT/2E/early 3E) they didn't have power armor units at all.

Holy hell... And to think I played Grey Knights once.

The second you finish Initiation as a Grey Knight you get a suit of Terminator Armor, Storm Bolter, and Force weapon. You have to get approval from the Justicar or whomever is in charge of the operation to wear Power Armor.

I wish I could put Purifiers in Termie armor,would be awesome..

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Deathstrike Missiles are nukes.

They're tomahawks at best.

On Topic: CSM are best SM.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Deathstrike Missiles are nukes.

They're tomahawks at best.

Well, they can be given a number of different warheads, conventional, vortex, chemical, etc.

I am going to say Black Templars over GKs. They are resistant to psykers, boast impressive numbers, and killing one only makes the others more angry. A BT zergrush is probably impossible to deal with. As for the fluff changing to the number of marines in the chapter, that is fething stupid and they are better when even chapter command has no idea how many Crusades are running around. Honestly, even the current fluff allows for that. Helbrecht probably has no clue as to how many Templars are out there.

 Melissia wrote:
non-discriminatory soulsuckers.

At last, a goal that Bankers can reasonably be expected to aspire to!

 The Wise Dane wrote:
And Terminator Armour is standard?

Draigowing. The GK probably have more suits of Termie armour than the BT are reputed to have marines.

GAdvance wrote:

BT's are a good bet though, they have higher numbers a wide variety of worlds applicants so stronger marines and very dangerous training methods more so than usual, they are a little... one track though, they aren't exactly smart

They're smart, but they sometimes go waaay to far with the whole crusading/honour schtick. They do seem to have the skill to match it though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am going to say Black Templars over GKs. They are resistant to psykers, boast impressive numbers, and killing one only makes the others more angry. A BT zergrush is probably impossible to deal with. As for the fluff changing to the number of marines in the chapter, that is fething stupid and they are better when even chapter command has no idea how many Crusades are running around. Honestly, even the current fluff allows for that. Helbrecht probably has no clue as to how many Templars are out there.

Yeah. It's sorta still current fluff that crusades keep picking up new recruitment worlds, and the crusades probably all have orders that if they lose contact with the other crusades, they are to assume they are the only remaining Templars, and to bring their numbers back up to 1000+.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am going to say Black Templars over GKs. They are resistant to psykers, boast impressive numbers, and killing one only makes the others more angry. A BT zergrush is probably impossible to deal with. As for the fluff changing to the number of marines in the chapter, that is fething stupid and they are better when even chapter command has no idea how many Crusades are running around. Honestly, even the current fluff allows for that. Helbrecht probably has no clue as to how many Templars are out there.

Fluff wise how many humans does it take to really kill a space marine? not to mention a GK? the crusaders are just gonna be a pain in the ass at most and delay the inevitable. and they might be resistant to psykers but cleansing flame is still cleansing flame.

A GK is no more surviveable than an average marine, weaker than a fair few actually like sons of Antaeus

GAdvance wrote:
A GK is no more surviveable than an average marine, weaker than a fair few actually like sons of Antaeus

Actually, Terminator Armour and psychic abilities would go a long way in mitigating that.

Fluffwise, I'm going with Thousand sons. Let's compare them to grey knights because a lot of people in this thread seem to favor them as the strongest.

Grey knights are strong psykers, but so are Thousand sons. I'd argue them to be even stronger because the rubric of Ahriman augmented every psyker's power (that did not turn into a Rubric) immensely. Even before the Rubric, Thousand sons had some of the most powerful psykers in the imperium, so I think it's safe to assume (non-rubric) thousand sons are vastly more potent than Grey knights as psykers.
In addition to this, Chaos sorcerers in general are not held back by the doctrines of the imperium that binds the use of psychic powers. Some novels illustrate psykers becoming more powerful after turning traitor because living under the rule of the Imperium means repressing your psychic potential to a certain boundry.

Rubric marines are know to tank through shots from the most powerful anti-tank weaponry known to man. They're more durable than the Sons Antaeus. So again it's a safe assumption they're more durable than GK, even if GK sport Terminator armour. And a dead Rubric marine is not by definition dead. Thousand sons can resurrect their fallen rubrics by trapping the souls of their dead into corpses, transforming them into Rubricae again.

Speaking of Terminator armour, Thousand sons don't give a sod about that since their inferno bolts (not to confuse with the Imperial inferno bolts) ignore any mundane armour and destroy the target's soul. And this is just speculation but if their bullets ignore any form of physical armour, wouldn't their bullets penetrate vehicles as well, killing the crew operating it?
Bear in mind that standard terminator armour does not have a force field as would be indicated by the tabletop.

Grey knights are said to have been trained to be the best of the best, but we all know training only gets you so far. Real battlefield experience is just as valuable, if not more so than training. Commander Dante is believed to be the oldest living loyalist space marine, being 1.300 years old. However, some (if not most) Thousand sons should be around 10.000 years old. They have far more experience than regular astartes and even Grey knights. And this assumptions again, but their combat prowess should be up to par with Grey knights. If you can live through the warp for thousands of years, I think you'd be able to live through any training the imperium can throw at you.

Thousand sons are some of the most prominent practitioners of divination, meaning they could foresee the flow of the battle and adapt accordingly. Can you win against an opponent that knows what you're going to do before you're doing it?

There would be two disadvantages for Thousand sonscompared to Grey knights and I'm on the fence for both of them because we have no numerical values to compare. First comes the fact that their 'legion' is a bunch of warbands with a few hundred sorcerers controlling thousands of automatons. This is a disadvantage because in order to greatly reduce the combat effectiveness of the Rubricae, you only need to kill the sorcerer's.
Secondly, it is said that a Sorcerer can easily control a whole squad of them, but it is not specified how big "a whole squad" is.

An average Grey knight is also quite limited in their pyscic power, it's only a very small number of them with the training to do much more than active force weapons and some other combat basic

Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

 Camundongo wrote:
Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

Rubric Dreadnought? Yes please! Though now that Chaos Dreads are all Helbrutes now, I wonder how that works.

I miss Tsons Terminators, such a cool concept, that GW has appeared to go out of its way to pretend don't exist for the last 8 years

 Vaktathi wrote:
I miss Tsons Terminators, such a cool concept, that GW has appeared to go out of its way to pretend don't exist for the last 8 years

How about Cult Terminators in general? GOD the last CSM codex was crap...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I miss Tsons Terminators, such a cool concept, that GW has appeared to go out of its way to pretend don't exist for the last 8 years

How about Cult Terminators in general? GOD the last CSM codex was crap...

The last two really

It's like GW has been going out of its way to not provide what Chaos Players have actually been asking for, despite that it would be a license to print money.

Fluff wise the most powerful space marines are the custodes on terra. The only space marines more powerful then them are the primarchs.

Way far behind them are grey Knights
And grey Knights are like the seal team 6 of basic space marines.

Custodes are not Astartes.

We also don't know their power compared to Grey Knights. I'd assume Custodes possess superior combat skills but they lack the psychic ability. I'd consider them on par with one another, but with different specialities (daemonhunting vs bodyguarding)

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:
Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

Rubric Dreadnought? Yes please! Though now that Chaos Dreads are all Helbrutes now, I wonder how that works.

Most are, but IA13 gives you the rules for Ferrus Infernus Dreadnoughts, which are essentially ancient Chaos versions of SM dreads, with none of the fleshmetal stuff.

 Camundongo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:
Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

Rubric Dreadnought? Yes please! Though now that Chaos Dreads are all Helbrutes now, I wonder how that works.

Most are, but IA13 gives you the rules for Ferrus Infernus Dreadnoughts, which are essentially ancient Chaos versions of SM dreads, with none of the fleshmetal stuff.

Hmmm. Interesting. Though it makes me wonder what a TSons Helbrute would look like. Probably would have to be a Psyker I guess.

Anyway...

Rainbow Warriors, duh.

GAdvance wrote:
An average Grey knight is also quite limited in their pyscic power, it's only a very small number of them with the training to do much more than active force weapons and some other combat basic

Page 6 of the Codex: "all Grey Knights are trained to bend the powers of the Warp to their will, and each one is a powerful psyker." and "Even the Librarians of other Chapters cannot match the psychic mastery of the Grey Knights".

Would appear then that the average Librarian can barely activate their force weapons

Grey Knights all can do the anti-daemon powers, they also choose a specialty within the normal disciplines and train in them.

Hyperion was a pyro-specialist himself.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:
Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

Rubric Dreadnought? Yes please! Though now that Chaos Dreads are all Helbrutes now, I wonder how that works.

Most are, but IA13 gives you the rules for Ferrus Infernus Dreadnoughts, which are essentially ancient Chaos versions of SM dreads, with none of the fleshmetal stuff.

Hmmm. Interesting. Though it makes me wonder what a TSons Helbrute would look like. Probably would have to be a Psyker I guess.

Anyway...

They apparently look like this...

So just as fleshy as other Helbrutes...

"Even the Librarians of other Chapters cannot match the psychic mastery of the Grey Knights".

That does not mean that ALL Grey Knights are more powerful than Librarians. More like the Grey Knights as a whole.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:
Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

Rubric Dreadnought? Yes please! Though now that Chaos Dreads are all Helbrutes now, I wonder how that works.

Most are, but IA13 gives you the rules for Ferrus Infernus Dreadnoughts, which are essentially ancient Chaos versions of SM dreads, with none of the fleshmetal stuff.

Hmmm. Interesting. Though it makes me wonder what a TSons Helbrute would look like. Probably would have to be a Psyker I guess.

Anyway...

They apparently look like this...

Spoiler:

So just as fleshy as other Helbrutes...

Doesn't that totally ruin the fluff though? Or did they retcon the part where the TSons were just dust in animated suits?

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Camundongo wrote:
Thousand Sons used to have Terminators, but I don't know if they've quietly been led out back, shot and then dumped into a ditch of discontinuity.Which is a shame, because a Rubric Terminator would be ungodly tough.

Although in IA13 it's suggested a dreadnought might actually be a Rubric (he hasn't spoken in 10,000 years, ever since the Rubric was cast), so... maybe?

Rubric Dreadnought? Yes please! Though now that Chaos Dreads are all Helbrutes now, I wonder how that works.

Most are, but IA13 gives you the rules for Ferrus Infernus Dreadnoughts, which are essentially ancient Chaos versions of SM dreads, with none of the fleshmetal stuff.

Hmmm. Interesting. Though it makes me wonder what a TSons Helbrute would look like. Probably would have to be a Psyker I guess.

Anyway...

They apparently look like this...

Spoiler:

So just as fleshy as other Helbrutes...

Doesn't that totally ruin the fluff though? Or did they retcon the part where the TSons were just dust in animated suits?

I don't think so, could simply be that materialized Chaos comes out as flesh and tissue - That's my take on it, anyway. Makes a lot of the newer designs make more sense.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Custodes are not Astartes.

We also don't know their power compared to Grey Knights. I'd assume Custodes possess superior combat skills but they lack the psychic ability. I'd consider them on par with one another, but with different specialities (daemonhunting vs bodyguarding)

That's just not true at least according to thier lore. They are not space marines but they are the most powerful legion created by the emperor.
" The Custodes are the greatest group of physiologically and psychologically-enhanced troops the Emperor had ever created; they are the best trained, most disciplined and most vigilant watchmen in the Imperium."

 Skinnereal wrote:

"Even the Librarians of other Chapters cannot match the psychic mastery of the Grey Knights".

That does not mean that ALL Grey Knights are more powerful than Librarians. More like the Grey Knights as a whole.

Makes more sense to me to point out that each Grey Knight is X powerful, rather than say "An entire chapter is more powerful than a single individual".

"Even the Chapter Masters of other Chapters cannot match the combat mastery of the Black Templar" - yes. yes I do believe that a single Chapter Master would find it hard to beat out ~1,000 marines.

Forthe record, a gousand sons dreadnought looks like this: http://skaystore.ru/images/detailed/69/Thousons1.jpg?t=1436486787

The most powerful space marine is Jim Raynor and the Raynor's Raiders.

Ken52682 wrote:
The most powerful space marine is Jim Raynor and the Raynor's Raiders.

True that!