In other words, why the hell is everyone in the future white? Do they explain this in the fluff anywhere?

I would imagine after tens of thousands of years the human race would look a bit more... tan from generation after generation mixing and stirring the pot.

There is plenty of racial diversity in the Imperium. There are around a million imperial worlds. That means, at minimum, you have a million different ethnicities. Probably 10-12 million because many planets will have multiple ethnicities.

But nobody cares about the color of your skin or the shape of your face in the 41st millennium. They only care if you are human or not.

It is just a result of white, British artists painting/drawing what they are familiar with. The Imperium is a very diverse Empire with a wide variety of environments within a wide variety of planets. There are people of every skin tone.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It is just a result of white, British artists painting/drawing what they are familiar with. The Imperium is a very diverse Empire with a wide variety of environments within a wide variety of planets. There are people of every skin tone.

I had figured this for the most part. Are their racially diverse SM's as well?

Of course. The Marine's genes do get altered, but he'll still have some vestiges of his original ethnicity. Although this will be minor, he'll bear more resemblance to the Chapter's unique physical characteristics. Which will be a mix of their primarch as well as the natural genetic drift and the influence of the previous marines who had that geneseed.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It is just a result of white, British artists painting/drawing what they are familiar with. The Imperium is a very diverse Empire with a wide variety of environments within a wide variety of planets. There are people of every skin tone.

This is the laziest, please don't bypass the language filter like this. reds8n excuse for GW's weird reluctance to paint black people. As if there aren't any black folk in Nottingham and no one at GW has ever seen someone who isn't white. Yes, it's the UK but its the Uk in 2015 not 1910.

I suspect it may be more of an issue of getting dark skin to look realistic from a painting standpoint.
That said, I do wonder if the majority of Imperial citizens are pale skinned anyway - from living far away from natural light in massive hive cities or polluted forge worlds. Is 40 thousand years of melanoma deficiency long enough to overcome natural skin colouring, do we think?

Thats exactly it.

People paint what they are familiar with. Plus as someone who has painted various skin tones, its tough to paint realistic skin thats anything but some shade of light skin without it looking like Black Face.

GW just doesn't want to bother painting dark skin. There is a ton of diversity in the Imperium, just read through some of the novels and you'll see that there is, the game just doesn't properly represent this


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GW just doesn't want to bother painting dark skin. There is a ton of diversity in the Imperium, just read through some of the novels and you'll see that there is, the game just doesn't properly represent this

Ive seen some colored Imperial Guardsmen before, usually Catachan, and i agree that its hard to do darker skin tones well, but once you figure it out it gets easy. Also isnt there a Imp Guard regiment that is basically in Samurai Flak armor?

Well, when you live in a white majority town with whites being the majority in practically all mediums in the place you live white skin tones become the "default" with darker skin tones being an "exception". This is hardly unique to GW at all. It plagues fantasy as well. All Elves/Dwarves are white while humans are predominately white except for some minor factions. Fantasy fiction with a ethnically diverse set of characters are rare.

If you read enough BL books you'll quickly realize that for the most part the human characters aren't exactly what we would consider white...

Just forge dem narrative and if you like paint ur guys with darken colors saying their planet environment requires more melanine to be produced solved look at salamanders 99% of them have obsidian skin tone cause of it, white scars are on the otherside quite asian. No1 forces you to paint stuff how you see on the boxes, interwebs or white dwarf.

Oh, please.

Are there many tyranids in Nottingham then? Orks? Evil space daemons?

.... you can just give them a dark skin tone.....

 Aben Zin wrote:
I suspect it may be more of an issue of getting dark skin to look realistic from a painting standpoint.
That said, I do wonder if the majority of Imperial citizens are pale skinned anyway - from living far away from natural light in massive hive cities or polluted forge worlds. Is 40 thousand years of melanoma deficiency long enough to overcome natural skin colouring, do we think?

Most Imperial worlds aren't Hive Worlds, or even heavily-industrialized worlds. The people on them will have whatever skin-pigmentation is a result of the exposure to whatever kind of star it is their planet circles. Who knows? Maybe people who live on a world in a binary star-system with a red sun and a blue sun will have mauve skin.

Also worth adding that there ARE some examples, even if some aren't done brilliantly.
Moreover, nothing stopping you from painting a different skin tone if you want to.

*Cough Cough Inquisitor Toth Cough Cough*

Its not a matter of me painting my models different skin tones, its just I've never seen any examples in art or from the little fluff I have read seen anything but white males who typically even have the same face.

Certain depictions of IG artwork would lead one to believe regular guardsmen are all cloned from the same John Doe.

More like all the artwork you see is of Cadians. Who are indeed lighter skinned. Although they have purple eyes

As far as the Imperium is concerned, they might be.

That said, there's nothing stopping you from painting your models any way you like. God knows I introduce all kinds of strange and unusual human cultures in my DH games as the Retinue travels from planet to planet.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
In other words, why the hell is everyone in the future white?
Eugenics.
Do they explain this in the fluff anywhere?
"Suffer Not The Mutant To Live"
I would imagine after tens of thousands of years the human race would look a bit more... tan...
Bunkers and Tech Heresy.

Look through some of the Catachan box art.

Because slaanesh stole most of everyone else including the evil Glen quagmire

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
Its not a matter of me painting my models different skin tones, its just I've never seen any examples in art or from the little fluff I have read seen anything but white males who typically even have the same face.

Read more?

From what I see all you want us to say is "Bad bad imperialist British toy company being fascist" We all give you lots of arguments. It's toys play it how you want it and paint how you want it in fluff there's plenty of big names which aren't Caucasian. Just stop trying to play race card bs when it's bout toys.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Aben Zin wrote:
I suspect it may be more of an issue of getting dark skin to look realistic from a painting standpoint.
That said, I do wonder if the majority of Imperial citizens are pale skinned anyway - from living far away from natural light in massive hive cities or polluted forge worlds. Is 40 thousand years of melanoma deficiency long enough to overcome natural skin colouring, do we think?

Most Imperial worlds aren't Hive Worlds, or even heavily-industrialized worlds. The people on them will have whatever skin-pigmentation is a result of the exposure to whatever kind of star it is their planet circles. Who knows? Maybe people who live on a world in a binary star-system with a red sun and a blue sun will have mauve skin.

Most worlds might not be hive worlds, but given the relative population densities I'd say the majority of imperial citizens tend to live on them. Agri-worlds would be sparsely populated, to allow more room for agriculture, Forge worlds always appear in the fluff to be so heavily polluted that the citizens probably ought to remain indoors anyway and death worlds... well it's in the name really. Of course there are other world, feudal worlds, garden worlds and so on, but the hive worlds are where the bulk of the population live.
It is a good point about other types of stars though. Would people's skin tan differently under other stars than ours?

No idea, we can't exactly test it... and 40K and Real Science would not recognize one another if they passed in the street anyway.

Just paint people of different ethnicities. And I have no idea where the "dark skin tone is harder to paint!" argument comes from. I actually started with painting dark skinned folks for my Space Marines because I found it easier.

the imperium is as diverse as you paint it.

Asterios wrote:
the imperium is as diverse as you paint it.

Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

Asterios wrote:
the imperium is as diverse as you paint it.

Exalted sir. Plus there is a humongous range of 3rd party stuff out there if you want your guys to be a bit more equal opportunities friendly.

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:
the imperium is as diverse as you paint it.

Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

actually the Dark Angels I always considered dark Skin (either that or they have some serious tans), plus there are the mongol riders and so forth, to say there is no diversity is, well not thinking, me thinks.

furthermore I have never seen GW refer to a certain skin color on any of the characters, to insinuate that would be racist in and of itself.

ever hear of the sisters of battle?

furthermore just because some artists paint their peeps white does not make it so.

Hey anyone heard of the salamanders? White scares? There is plenty of diversity I just think GW centers on the white chapters.


Salamanders (who are the only chapter really driven to protect the weak) are all ebony.

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:
the imperium is as diverse as you paint it.

Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

actually the Dark Angels I always considered dark Skin (either that or they have some serious tans), plus there are the mongol riders and so forth, to say there is no diversity is, well not thinking, me thinks.

That's a nice fist of straws you've grasped. There is a dumb lack of diversity in the official paint jobs. Seriously, you could probably count the images of non white human models in all the codeces on two hands. If that. It's juvenile.

Edit: you really wanna go there on salamanders? The dudes with coal black skin and RED PUPIL-LESS EYES?

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:
the imperium is as diverse as you paint it.

Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

actually the Dark Angels I always considered dark Skin (either that or they have some serious tans), plus there are the mongol riders and so forth, to say there is no diversity is, well not thinking, me thinks.

That's a nice fist of straws you've grasped. There is a dumb lack of diversity in the official paint jobs. Seriously, you could probably count the images of non white human models in all the codeces on two hands. It's juvenile.

Edit: you really wanna go there on salamanders? The dudes with coal black skin and RED PUPIL-LESS EYES?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/04 19:31:35

actually thats particular artists perspective, not GW's and as I have always said only a racist would find racism where there is none.

GW has never said a certain race is a certain color only the painters do that, its not GW's fault the minis they show are done by artists who paint their factions white, on the few heads that are shown.

I didn't bring up salamanders since I don't really think of them as human even

The Salamanders are not African-black, they are asphalt black. They are white dudes with jet-black skin and glowing red eyes because of an environmental reaction in their geneseed.

There is one Sister of Battle in one bit of artwork who is obviously Black.

The Inq from DoW. but that's entirely third-party so doesn't really count.

All that aside, I don't think GW is doing it out of maliciousness or embedded racism, I think they're just lazy. Caucasian Skin Tone paint is the default.

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:
the imperium is as diverse as you paint it.

Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

actually the Dark Angels I always considered dark Skin (either that or they have some serious tans), plus there are the mongol riders and so forth, to say there is no diversity is, well not thinking, me thinks.

That's a nice fist of straws you've grasped. There is a dumb lack of diversity in the official paint jobs. Seriously, you could probably count the images of non white human models in all the codeces on two hands. It's juvenile.

Edit: you really wanna go there on salamanders? The dudes with coal black skin and RED PUPIL-LESS EYES?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/04 19:31:35

actually thats particular artists perspective, not GW's and as I have always said only a racist would find racism where there is none.

GW has never said a certain race is a certain color only the painters do that, its not GW's fault the minis they show are done by artists who paint their factions white, on the few heads that are shown.

I didn't bring up salamanders since I don't really think of them as human even

That's absurd to the point that I think you may be trolling. GW has 100% control over how their miniatures are displayed in official channels.

Do GW have a paint range for anything other than bronze and pale skin (fantastic colour ranges excepted)?

That is true.

Now there are many reasons they aren't depicting people of color. Malice and deliberate non-representation are only one of the reasons, and not very likely IMO.

To address your post -

 Las wrote:
Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

Read more?

-answers you quite nicely. Your ignorance and craving to make up things to be offended aren't GW's fault.

I smell troll.

At this point your just standing on box ignoring everyone and demanding we agree that GW is evil because a black cadian isn't front and center in the codex. Thats juvenile.

Painting the models with darker skin tones doesn't do much, as they are sculpted with traditionally Caucasian features. I never really noticed until I painted Barker Zosa from the sedition wars box, who was sculpted specifically as a black guy. It makes a massive difference to the final piece.

It does bring back memories of the days where the Emperor was suggested to have been a certain German dictator who experimented with genetic engineering to create a master race. Maybe that's why they're all white...

 Bookwrack wrote:
To address your post -

 Las wrote:
Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

Read more?

-answers you quite nicely. Your ignorance and craving to make up things to be offended aren't GW's fault.

Waiting for all the photos of non white human depictions from official GW sources. Show me the dazzlingly diverse demographics of the far future that you seem to think exists.

Oh boy, the "but who's the REAL racist" are starting. This ain't gonna go well.

Anyway, on topic; look, let's not pretend that GW's official art isn't lacking when it comes to diversity. People have pointed out why that is, and they're right. Unfortunately, the artists (being predominantly white) tend to think of themselves and people like them as the norm. Sure, the Sisters of Battle exist and there's female Eldar models, but otherwise everything else is male and (usually) white.

Except the orks, and even then you have to use Transformers logic to figure out why, despite being genderless, they refer to each other as "he."

That said, I think this is where the community can come in. Modelling gives players an opportunity to fix what they think is broken about official stuff, and as someone very rightly pointed out there's a lot of third party conversion kits out there that can help you in that aim. I'm certainly not planning on having an army of samey white dudes, and if that means I have to look up tips on skin painting online then so be it.

EDIT: wow, funny how a single typo can change the whole meaning of a sentence, huh?

 Las wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:
To address your post -

 Las wrote:
Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

Read more?

-answers you quite nicely. Your ignorance and craving to make up things to be offended aren't GW's fault.

Waiting for all the photos of non white human depictions from official GW sources. Show me the dazzlingly diverse demographics of the far future that you seem to think exists.

Read the friggin Black Library.

There are tons of characters with different skin colors in there.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Las wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:
To address your post -

 Las wrote:
Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

Read more?

-answers you quite nicely. Your ignorance and craving to make up things to be offended aren't GW's fault.

Waiting for all the photos of non white human depictions from official GW sources. Show me the dazzlingly diverse demographics of the far future that you seem to think exists.

Read the friggin Black Library.

There are tons of characters with different skin colors in there.

Yeah, dude, I'm not talking about the "friggin Black Library."

It's weird and creepy how defensive some on this board get when it is suggested that the game might be improved by having depictions of people who aren't TOUGH WHITE GUYS. To the point that people call you a racist for suggesting it somehow.

I should also mention that this sort of thread has popped up lots of times.. and always gets bogged down with silly arguments.

 JamesY wrote:
It does bring back memories of the days where the Emperor was suggested to have been a certain German dictator who experimented with genetic engineering to create a master race. Maybe that's why they're all white...

Tbh I thought that may have been the case...

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I should also mention that this sort of thread has popped up lots of times.. and always gets bogged down with silly arguments.

Strongly held beliefs and the anonymous-ish aggression of the internet don't mix well. :/

 Las wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Las wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:
To address your post -

 Las wrote:
Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

Read more?

-answers you quite nicely. Your ignorance and craving to make up things to be offended aren't GW's fault.

Waiting for all the photos of non white human depictions from official GW sources. Show me the dazzlingly diverse demographics of the far future that you seem to think exists.

Read the friggin Black Library.

There are tons of characters with different skin colors in there.

Yeah, dude, I'm not talking about the "friggin Black Library."

You do realize that the Black Library is an official GW source.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Las wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Las wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:
To address your post -

 Las wrote:
Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

Read more?

-answers you quite nicely. Your ignorance and craving to make up things to be offended aren't GW's fault.

Waiting for all the photos of non white human depictions from official GW sources. Show me the dazzlingly diverse demographics of the far future that you seem to think exists.

Read the friggin Black Library.

There are tons of characters with different skin colors in there.

Yeah, dude, I'm not talking about the "friggin Black Library."

You do realize that the Black Library is an official GW source.

Read my post. I'm talking photos. Official visual representation would have you believe that the imperium is 99% white males. Why? It's stupid.

So, despite overall GW sources showing a very diverse Imperium, because they haven't met your artificial quota of showing black people in photos specifically you think they are somehow racist?

Dude, just stop. Thats a ridiculous stance to take.

 Grey Templar wrote:
So, despite overall GW sources showing a very diverse Imperium, because they haven't met your artificial quota of showing black people in photos specifically you think they are somehow racist?

Dude, just stop. Thats a ridiculous stance to take.

"Hey, why are all the people in the 40k universe I see on boxes, in codeces on the website white guys?"

"There's black people in the novels gawd! Don be ridiculous! The art department are British time travellers! They've never seen a black dude before!"

It's because GW is incapable of perceiving most women and people of color, ok? Seriously, did you not know? Once you enter the Nottingham HQ, you become subject to a strange Warp effect where everyone everywhere takes on the visual appearance of a mid-40s Caucasian male. How could you not know this?

So, here you are, in a hobby where you're free to make your own art, paint your own models, create your own armies however the feth you please, and you gotta come onto a fansite and make fun of the poor, disabled artists at GW... who, incidentally, don't paint their own pictures, they actually hire people right off DeviantArt, thus extending the corruptive influence of the Warp.

All those pictures? Like, Star Trek Utopia levels of gender and race diversity. There were even a few Space Marines in wheelchairs in prominent places. Then that Warp effect kicked in (if you can't see the diversity, you've been corrupted) and turned everyone into a middle-aged white dude.

Tragic, really, and here you are, making fun of people with disabilities. The feth is wrong with you?

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:
the imperium is as diverse as you paint it.

Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

actually the Dark Angels I always considered dark Skin (either that or they have some serious tans), plus there are the mongol riders and so forth, to say there is no diversity is, well not thinking, me thinks.

That's a nice fist of straws you've grasped. There is a dumb lack of diversity in the official paint jobs. Seriously, you could probably count the images of non white human models in all the codeces on two hands. It's juvenile.

Edit: you really wanna go there on salamanders? The dudes with coal black skin and RED PUPIL-LESS EYES?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/04 19:31:35

actually thats particular artists perspective, not GW's and as I have always said only a racist would find racism where there is none.

GW has never said a certain race is a certain color only the painters do that, its not GW's fault the minis they show are done by artists who paint their factions white, on the few heads that are shown.

I didn't bring up salamanders since I don't really think of them as human even

That's absurd to the point that I think you may be trolling. GW has 100% control over how their miniatures are displayed in official channels.

GW contracts artist who do the painting, GW does not tell them how to p[aint them, since no respecting artist would work that way, they just say paint me some Cadians, or some Space Marines and the artist does the that. and they do it in their perspective, how many black artists you see painting white people? or mexican people? or how many artists you see painting white people or black people or asians?

you want diversity get some black artists into the mix, problem is most black artists are into the music scene not painting. and ther in lies the problem most artists are white predominantly so yes they will influence the type of work they do. they are not familiar with painting a black person and would probably make a mockery of it if not a complete failure and i would rather they paint what they know then to offend someone painting what they do not know.

also you say I may be trolling i say you may be racist, your point?

As far as I am aware I assume just speaking for terra that almost everyone on terra(Earth) is now of one race. It would make sense. We can presume that their is more diversity among all of the starts than ever before though. Race can change if you live in a new type of area for a long period of time. For example if you and your family lived in a desert for thousands of years I am assuming your eumelanin would eventually become black.

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:
the imperium is as diverse as you paint it.

Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

actually the Dark Angels I always considered dark Skin (either that or they have some serious tans), plus there are the mongol riders and so forth, to say there is no diversity is, well not thinking, me thinks.

That's a nice fist of straws you've grasped. There is a dumb lack of diversity in the official paint jobs. Seriously, you could probably count the images of non white human models in all the codeces on two hands. It's juvenile.

Edit: you really wanna go there on salamanders? The dudes with coal black skin and RED PUPIL-LESS EYES?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/04 19:31:35

actually thats particular artists perspective, not GW's and as I have always said only a racist would find racism where there is none.

GW has never said a certain race is a certain color only the painters do that, its not GW's fault the minis they show are done by artists who paint their factions white, on the few heads that are shown.

I didn't bring up salamanders since I don't really think of them as human even

That's absurd to the point that I think you may be trolling. GW has 100% control over how their miniatures are displayed in official channels.

GW contracts artist who do the painting, GW does not tell them how to p[aint them, since no respecting artist would work that way, they just say paint me some Cadians, or some Space Marines and the artist does the that. and they do it in their perspective, how many black artists you see painting white people? or mexican people? or how many artists you see painting white people or black people or asians?

you want diversity get some black artists into the mix, problem is most black artists are into the music scene not painting. and ther in lies the problem most artists are white predominantly so yes they will influence the type of work they do. they are not familiar with painting a black person and would probably make a mockery of it if not a complete failure and i would rather they paint what they know then to offend someone painting what they do not know.

also you say I may be trolling i say you may be racist, your point?

Just because they contract their art doesn't mean they don't have total control over how their brand is portrayed. If they wanted to show a diverse range of ethnicities in their IP they could do it easily. The fact is that they don't, and I'm a racist for asking why?

What do you even think a racist is?

Woah, wait a second. Did you just say "most black artists are into the music scene?" Are you a hundred and three?

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:
the imperium is as diverse as you paint it.

Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

actually the Dark Angels I always considered dark Skin (either that or they have some serious tans), plus there are the mongol riders and so forth, to say there is no diversity is, well not thinking, me thinks.

That's a nice fist of straws you've grasped. There is a dumb lack of diversity in the official paint jobs. Seriously, you could probably count the images of non white human models in all the codeces on two hands. It's juvenile.

Edit: you really wanna go there on salamanders? The dudes with coal black skin and RED PUPIL-LESS EYES?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/04 19:31:35

actually thats particular artists perspective, not GW's and as I have always said only a racist would find racism where there is none.

GW has never said a certain race is a certain color only the painters do that, its not GW's fault the minis they show are done by artists who paint their factions white, on the few heads that are shown.

I didn't bring up salamanders since I don't really think of them as human even

That's absurd to the point that I think you may be trolling. GW has 100% control over how their miniatures are displayed in official channels.

GW contracts artist who do the painting, GW does not tell them how to p[aint them, since no respecting artist would work that way, they just say paint me some Cadians, or some Space Marines and the artist does the that. and they do it in their perspective, how many black artists you see painting white people? or mexican people? or how many artists you see painting white people or black people or asians?

you want diversity get some black artists into the mix, problem is most black artists are into the music scene not painting. and ther in lies the problem most artists are white predominantly so yes they will influence the type of work they do. they are not familiar with painting a black person and would probably make a mockery of it if not a complete failure and i would rather they paint what they know then to offend someone painting what they do not know.

also you say I may be trolling i say you may be racist, your point?

Just because they contract their art doesn't mean they don't have total control over how their brand is portrayed. If they wanted to show a diverse range of ethnicities in their IP they could do it easily. The fact is that they don't, and I'm a racist for asking why?

What do you even think a racist is?

you think they are racist because their painters do not know how to paint black people properly or any other race, would you rather they did them and had them looking like a caricature? lets face it maybe one in 100 players are black, maybe one in a thousand painters are black, what are the odds we are going to see a black SM on any product? there are a few game stores around me and I have seen only one black player in all of them, and he had no problem with there being no black SM's yet you have a problem so it makes me wonder why ? if you want diversity paint up some drawings of black SM's and present them to GW or find an accredited artist who contraacts with GW who is willing to paint a black SM and present it to GW.

if the work is not presented to GW they cannot use it.

 Las wrote:

Woah, wait a second. Did you just say "most black artists are into the music scene?" Are you a hundred and three?

how many music artists you know are black?

and how many painting artists who paint GW stuff are black?

NUFF said !

I'm getting trolled, right? Is anyone else seeing this garbage or am I having a fever dream?

 Las wrote:
I'm getting trolled, right? Is anyone else seeing this garbage or am I having a fever dream?

I think many might think your the troll trying to start something by posting these posts.

 Yarium wrote:
Just paint people of different ethnicities. And I have no idea where the "dark skin tone is harder to paint!" argument comes from. I actually started with painting dark skinned folks for my Space Marines because I found it easier.

Well, there are a bunch of paints for specifically white people skin, but haven't seen any for others, seems you'd need to mix your own.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Salamanders are not African-black, they are asphalt black. They are white dudes with jet-black skin and glowing red eyes because of an environmental reaction in their geneseed.

That's basically my issue with them, would be totally fine with the Salamanders if they just happened to be black people but as it is... They're basically a whole chapter of blackface minstrels, and it's basically scared me away form playing them for fear of being called a racist...

I find it amusing that people seem to get so rilled about this subject, paint your army in whatever skintone you desire. And if you feel that GW is being racial ignorant well then thats your point of view, and a point you are entiteled to.

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:
I'm getting trolled, right? Is anyone else seeing this garbage or am I having a fever dream?

I think many might think your the troll trying to start something by posting these posts.

Do you really believe that white people can't paint black people? Do you really think contracting art is just someone submitting whatever they want to a company and the company has to use it, with no input or control over the depiction? Do you really believe there are no black people painting because they're all too busy "in the music scene?"

No. No, you must be fething with me.

 Trondheim wrote:
I find it amusing that people seem to get so rilled about this subject, paint your army in whatever skintone you desire. And if you feel that GW is being racial ignorant well then thats your point of view, and a point you are entiteled to.

Right, and this is a thread specifically about that hence were letting that opinion be known and discussed. Why is this blowing your mind?

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:
I'm getting trolled, right? Is anyone else seeing this garbage or am I having a fever dream?

I think many might think your the troll trying to start something by posting these posts.

Do you really believe that white people can't paint black people? Do you really think contracting art is just someone submitting whatever they want to a company and the company has to use it, with no input or control over the depiction? Do you really believe there are no black people painting because they're all too busy "in the music scene?"

No. No, you must be fething with me.

then tell me how many painting artists you know are black? how many artists who do drawings of GW stuff are black? would you rather I say sports or basketball? or such? most people only paint what they know, and the world being politically correct the way it is, people are afraid to paint what they do not know and disrespect someone.

GW's input is SM's thats it.

 Trondheim wrote:
I find it amusing that people seem to get so rilled about this subject, paint your army in whatever skintone you desire. And if you feel that GW is being racial ignorant well then thats your point of view, and a point you are entiteled to.

No.
If it's true, that's a problem that needs to be solved.
If it's not, saying that is basically slander.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:
I find it amusing that people seem to get so rilled about this subject, paint your army in whatever skintone you desire. And if you feel that GW is being racial ignorant well then thats your point of view, and a point you are entiteled to.

No.
If it's true, that's a problem that needs to be solved.
If it's not, saying that is basically slander.

Oh really? And what proof do we have that GW is a company run by some gaggle of racial ignorant people? Personaly I just put this all down to people looking for problems where there are none

Then refer to the last sentence I posted.

 Las wrote:
I'm getting trolled, right? Is anyone else seeing this garbage or am I having a fever dream?

To be honest you just sound like you are trying very hard to care.... about skin colour art... to the point you are frothing at the mouth (not really, but dude you are lashing out).

Did you know there is a Sci Fi trope where pale white (usually British... but sometimes southern American) males are commonly depicted in a an evil regime.

Starwars has white British men oppressing Aliens and Americans which, due to screen time, look like minorities. Avatar has Southern White men edging to slaughter Natives which include women (the bad guys have women until the killing starts). It is a really common theme in Sci Fi to have the bad guys a lot whiter than the good guys and if all are white then the bad guys turn into Southerners or (usually posh) British.

It is likely the Imperial Guard was created with this Trope in mind because... all the humans look like pasty white British people who happen to be apart of the most oppressive regime they could think of. In my opinion this is why most of them are portrayed as white, because we westerners respond well to thinking only X group of white people are bad.

Of course, you are correct. The Art portrays mostly white dudes, which is hardly surprising, an oppressive regime needs a lot of soldiers and in order to look oppressive they tend to have to look white for some reason.

So maybe you will feel better knowing it's because of "reverse racism" or something...

Way back 8 or so years ago, a white Dwarf came out talking about this. The guy got Tallarn Models because he wanted to show black people in 40k a bit more (maybe the guy was black, I can't remember his reasons) and so he had a cool feature showing off his army of darker skinned models, with how to paint it. This was the first time I saw Tallarn models and as a result I see them as tanned and black whenever I remember them directly because of that article. But I doubt GW will ever do something like that again because they like Cadians so much.

Something to be upset about? Maybe. Should you be angry few people care? Probably not. But it doesn't have to be Black People. In fact the bit where you mostly talk about black people lacking makes it hard to take you seriously. Id rather see lots more cultures like the old GW used to have.

I have an old Imperial Guard book that had Arabic Tallarn art (black and white) and mongol soldiers on horse art (black and white) and it also has about 56 different and culturally diverse Guardsmen in there. It used to be the vision the guard would be a coalition of cultures all forced together in the struggle for survival. But that's not grim dark enough maybe? I know before hand they where white and like the Starship troopers, but this changed in like 3rd edition to lots of cultures, then reverted back to what we have today.

 Las wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It is just a result of white, British artists painting/drawing what they are familiar with. The Imperium is a very diverse Empire with a wide variety of environments within a wide variety of planets. There are people of every skin tone.

This is the laziest, shittiest excuse for GW's weird reluctance to paint black people. As if there aren't any black folk in Nottingham and no one at GW has ever seen someone who isn't white. Yes, it's the UK but its the Uk in 2015 not 1910.

Nottingham only has a 7.5% Black Population according to the demographics on wikipedia. In that kind of environment, and growing up in the 50's, 60's, and 70's when that statistic was even lower, it's understandable to not really have many black characters in 40k. It just doesn't pop into their brains, and GW is probably correct in that their consumer base is predominately white.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:

 Las wrote:

Asterios wrote:
the imperium is as diverse as you paint it.

Yeah, everyone knows this. The problem is GW's refusal to include non-white people in their make believe space fantasy. It's weird enough that there are almost no women in the game, do they all have to be white too because "reasons?"

actually the Dark Angels I always considered dark Skin (either that or they have some serious tans), plus there are the mongol riders and so forth, to say there is no diversity is, well not thinking, me thinks.

furthermore I have never seen GW refer to a certain skin color on any of the characters, to insinuate that would be racist in and of itself.

ever hear of the sisters of battle?

furthermore just because some artists paint their peeps white does not make it so.

Wuuut.

Dark Angels are white dude. The Native American fluff (thank the emperor) stopped being a thing a veeeeery long while ago.

Your Dark Angels are white. His might be NatAm. Mine are Orange. Like, for real for real. Orange.

I am now considering a Sistas of Battle army that marches with the hymns of Saint Franklin....

Well yeah, you can paint them whatever you want, but by canon they're Anglo Arthurian Knights with Catholic and Hebrew names. The Codex doesn't leave much up for imagination at all.



Also, orange? Your Dark Angels are the offspring of Donald Trump?

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also, orange? Your Dark Angels are the offspring of Donald Trump?

As it turns out, the Dark Angels were hiding something much worse than some of their kin falling to Chaos.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Well yeah, you can paint them whatever you want, but by canon they're Anglo Arthurian Knights with Catholic and Hebrew names. The Codex doesn't leave much up for imagination at all.

Spoiler:

Also, orange? Your Dark Angels are the offspring of Donald Trump?

No, no.

It's *much* worse than that:

As has been said countless times before-- there is racial diversity... within the lore. When painting and having art done, however, GW is just so full of lazy old white men who don't really think about what it is they produce. It's not malicious racism of someone who hates or dislikes, it's the thoughtless subconscious racism of someone who doesn't really pay much attention to what they're doing and just produces things that look like them.

tl;dr: it's not a conscious decision. It's laziness.

I paint my Crimson Fists with dark tan skin tone, brown eyes, and dark brown hair. They are Hispanic in fiction, so I am running with it. My Blood Angels are all blond hair, blue eyes, because that is the fiction. If I had White Scars, I would paint them with an obvious Chinese/Mongolian bent. If I had a successor chapter I wanted to look African, I would paint them with dark brown skin, Brown eyes, and dark brown hair (not sure if I could model the curled hair many Africans possess). If I made a White Scars successor, I would actually model them to be Arabic in appearance, because that would be awesome. I also kinda want to make a stereotypical Irish successor in green armor with red hair and green eyes, because it would be pretty cool looking. Hmmm.

Honestly, much of the Space Marine art is pretty diverse, it just doesn't happen to be African in nature. I wish there was more, but just because there is not does not automatically make it racist.

 Las wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Las wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It is just a result of white, British artists painting/drawing what they are familiar with. The Imperium is a very diverse Empire with a wide variety of environments within a wide variety of planets. There are people of every skin tone.

This is the laziest, shittiest excuse for GW's weird reluctance to paint black people. As if there aren't any black folk in Nottingham and no one at GW has ever seen someone who isn't white. Yes, it's the UK but its the Uk in 2015 not 1910.

Well, when you live in a white majority town with whites being the majority in practically all mediums in the place you live white skin tones become the "default" with darker skin tones being an "exception". This is hardly unique to GW at all. It plagues fantasy as well. All Elves/Dwarves are white while humans are predominately white except for some minor factions. Fantasy fiction with a ethnically diverse set of characters are rare.

Oh, please.

Are there many tyranids in Nottingham then? Orks? Evil space daemons?

What? What are you talking about? Do you pay attention to the world around you or do you just enjoy grossly oversimplifying racial issues so that you can get offended?

As someone else said, this fictitious universe is as diverse as you paint it to be.

However,

Keep in mind that the cultural elements of the Imperium play off western civilization a lot. There may be fringe elements, but in sum, they don't weigh out the mainstream, overly oppressive intentionally racist/xenophobic overtones (that makes up the mood of the imperium). Furthermore, this universe is bent on the notion of eugenics, which is, the thing that leads to crap like Nazism - thus it makes sense we get something like the Imperium.

I'd wager that the Imperium's view on equality would probably be much more oppressive when it comes to skin tone and gender - it just makes sense that they'd be that 'pragmatic'; the more categories/classifications you have of people, the more you can control them.

The subtle absence of this logical course within the lore probably has more to do with the perceived offense it would make for those overly sensitive though.

In essence, the imperium is a bunch of Roman Space Nazis. I'd imagine 'white' would be the super majority in that train of thought.

 kveldulf wrote:


In essence, the imperium is a bunch of Roman Space Nazis. I'd imagine 'white' would be the super majority in that train of thought.

I disagree, heres a story about a bunch of fanatics who go off on crusades destroying the heretic, and torturing them, worshiping a dead man like hes an immortal god, and torturing and killing all those who do not worship him how they are supposed to, and they have warrior monks and priests who go about enforcing their laws and worship, oh wait thats not this game thats the catholic church around the middle ages during the Spanish inquisition and crusades

Asterios wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:


In essence, the imperium is a bunch of Roman Space Nazis. I'd imagine 'white' would be the super majority in that train of thought.

I disagree, heres a story about a bunch of fanatics who go off on crusades destroying the heretic, and torturing them, worshiping a dead man like hes an immortal god, and torturing and killing all those who do not worship him how they are supposed to, and they have warrior monks and priests who go about enforcing their laws and worship, oh wait thats not this game thats the catholic church around the middle ages during the Spanish inquisition and crusades

*Tips Fedora...

You can worship the emperor any way you want as long as worship is to the emperor. I could behead every 3rd daughter in the name of the emperor on my planet and it would be fine.

again good sir, *tips fedora, carry on enlightening the world!

 Melissia wrote:
As has been said countless times before-- there is racial diversity... within the lore. When painting and having art done, however, GW is just so full of lazy old white men who don't really think about what it is they produce. It's not malicious racism of someone who hates or dislikes, it's the thoughtless subconscious racism of someone who doesn't really pay much attention to what they're doing and just produces things that look like them.

tl;dr: it's not a conscious decision. It's laziness.

I wouldn't even say it is subconscious racism. It is PURE laziness. No one wants to take the time and effort to make each soldier look individual when there are just so many of them.

I do agree that there should be more diversity - and not just current-day Earth diversity, but 40,000 CE Galactic diversity - for official painted example models.

However, I've been thinking that there may be a reason why so many Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum squads are painted alike. From what I've read, most regiments are recruited from a single planet, so its members would of course reflect a single [or two] environment, and the resulting physiology and appearance.

Mixed-homeworld regiments or even squads are comparatively rare. The only official example is Schaeffer's Last Chancers, which is the only example I could find on the current GW website for diverse humans. [Of course, there'd be more examples for older official models, like the Attilan Rough Riders].

This would tie in to it being easier to paint a regiment of entirely lighter-skinned guys, than a regiment entirely of any other skin color or mutation.

As if clogging the internet with professional victimhood isn't bad enough SJWs continue their crusade into fictional sci-fi settings. Onward Sarkeesian soldiers!

Asterios wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:


In essence, the imperium is a bunch of Roman Space Nazis. I'd imagine 'white' would be the super majority in that train of thought.

I disagree, heres a story about a bunch of fanatics who go off on crusades destroying the heretic, and torturing them, worshiping a dead man like hes an immortal god, and torturing and killing all those who do not worship him how they are supposed to, and they have warrior monks and priests who go about enforcing their laws and worship, oh wait thats not this game thats the catholic church around the middle ages during the Spanish inquisition and crusades

So you're saying the Imperium has more to do with the spanish inquisition and crusading mentality? I don't disagree entirely; that's a big part of 40k, but that's also two different elements of history amongst other borrowed historical things compiled in the 40k universe. I guess I could have pointed this out?

There is the matter as to what part of the setting in the dark future we're talking about. I prefer 30k over 40k more so, and so, that's usually where I'm coming from - my bad. Though with either setting, it doesn't subtract the fundamental points that I made: they're built upon ideals akin to elitism - which utilizes things such as racism/bigotry.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I wouldn't even say it is subconscious racism. It is PURE laziness.

Subconscious racism and laziness are quite well intertwined.

MarsNZ wrote:
As if clogging the internet with professional victimhood isn't bad enough SJWs continue their crusade into fictional sci-fi settings. Onward Sarkeesian soldiers!

It's only a matter of time before each boxed set has every ethnicity, disability & gender combination available.

It'll indeed be a sad, yet funny sight to see guardsman in motorized wheelchairs - at least the orks can have their grins once they loot em.

Nobody cares what you think about "SJWs", whatever that might mean this particular minute to you. That's not the topic of discussion.

 kveldulf wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
As if clogging the internet with professional victimhood isn't bad enough SJWs continue their crusade into fictional sci-fi settings. Onward Sarkeesian soldiers!

It's only a matter of time before each boxed set has every ethnicity, disability & gender combination available.

It'll indeed be a sad, yet funny sight to see guardsman in motorized wheelchairs - at least the orks can have their grins once they loot em.

No one wants this. People want appropriate representation of other types of people besides white men. A more inclusive 40k is a better 40k.

 Melissia wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
I wouldn't even say it is subconscious racism. It is PURE laziness.

Subconscious racism and laziness are quite well intertwined.

Uh, subconscious rascism? intertwined with laziness?

Whatever happened to the matter of racism (which is a product of irrationality) being a matter of choice than being classified as some mental illness?

I guess I don't 'believe' in subconcious racism. I do believe that there is a cultural imprint, and that there is a propensity to lean on items that identify you with that. In natural terms this infers skin colour and, there is nothing wrong with preferring one culture over another, though, it is wrong/illogical to judge a culture or person of skin colour alone.

Preferring one skin colour over another isn't bad if its associated to cultural/sociological preferences (which i suppose it inherently is).

Pluralism can be good, but shaming those who don't agree with it is counter to its own mission/logic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
As if clogging the internet with professional victimhood isn't bad enough SJWs continue their crusade into fictional sci-fi settings. Onward Sarkeesian soldiers!

It's only a matter of time before each boxed set has every ethnicity, disability & gender combination available.

It'll indeed be a sad, yet funny sight to see guardsman in motorized wheelchairs - at least the orks can have their grins once they loot em.

No one wants this. People want appropriate representation of other types of people besides white men. A more inclusive 40k is a better 40k.

What is appropriate to some isn't appropriate to others. As to who's more correct is a matter of belief but they can't both be right.

Being progressively inclusive isn't selling the fiction, its selling a product.

True great works are not determined by a majority.

becuase it doesn't matter, all that matters is that you are a non-mutant human. Alternatively, they are your models, paint them however you want. White scars are Mongolian, Salamanders are technically black (literally), you chapter can be whatever you want, it's really a nonissue unless someone is looking for a reason to get offended.

 kveldulf wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
I wouldn't even say it is subconscious racism. It is PURE laziness.

Subconscious racism and laziness are quite well intertwined.

Uh, subconscious rascism? intertwined with laziness?

Whatever happened to the matter of racism (which is a product of irrationality) being a matter of choice than being classified as some mental illness?

I guess I don't 'believe' in subconcious racism. I do believe that there is a cultural imprint, and that there is a propensity to lean on items that identify you with that. In natural terms this infers skin colour and, there is nothing wrong with preferring one culture over another, though, it is wrong/illogical to judge a culture or person of skin colour alone.

Pluralism can be good, but shaming those who don't agree with it is counter to its own mission/logic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
As if clogging the internet with professional victimhood isn't bad enough SJWs continue their crusade into fictional sci-fi settings. Onward Sarkeesian soldiers!

It's only a matter of time before each boxed set has every ethnicity, disability & gender combination available.

It'll indeed be a sad, yet funny sight to see guardsman in motorized wheelchairs - at least the orks can have their grins once they loot em.

No one wants this. People want appropriate representation of other types of people besides white men. A more inclusive 40k is a better 40k.

What is appropriate to some isn't appropriate to others. As to who's more correct is a matter of belief but they can't both be right.

Being progressively inclusive isn't selling the fiction, its selling a product.

True great works are not determined by a majority.

Having Cadian kits being all male is an innaccurate representation of the Cadian Shock Troops. Men and women are both inducted into the guard so there is no reason to not have female guardsmen. I would say in this case female representation is entirely appropriate.

In addition, how is 40K being more inclusive not appropriate to others? I get female Space Marines being out the window (I am a proponent of an all-male Astartes order) but why should a fiction not being all about white bald men be some kind of exception? Why would 40K compromise it's integrity as a artistic body of work (as if the retcons to sell models didn't already do that)?

I'm guessing a large chunk of it is because white cultures advanced their military to be standardized first in the industrial/modern era and other cultures basically adopted the uniforms as they were functional, so there isn't as much to draw from in terms of modeling when making futuristic looking armour.

I mean look at the Imperial Guard, the units that stand out the most are the Vostroyan/Valhallan and Tallarn, which both mostly do so because of their head gear. The Vostroyan having those Russian hates and the Tallarn (specifically Al'Rahem) feature a more Arabic look with the Saudi hat.

Heck, even the Steel Legion is unique because of their style of helmet and gas mask, more than anything. I mean what gear would you put on a model to make it more easily identifiable as a different race as in those examples?

As for fluff in general, well yea they could diversify it a bit more and it wouldn't hurt. Though I don't know much about it, so for all I know there might be more diversity than I think.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Just paint people of different ethnicities. And I have no idea where the "dark skin tone is harder to paint!" argument comes from. I actually started with painting dark skinned folks for my Space Marines because I found it easier.

Well, there are a bunch of paints for specifically white people skin, but haven't seen any for others, seems you'd need to mix your own.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Salamanders are not African-black, they are asphalt black. They are white dudes with jet-black skin and glowing red eyes because of an environmental reaction in their geneseed.

That's basically my issue with them, would be totally fine with the Salamanders if they just happened to be black people but as it is... They're basically a whole chapter of blackface minstrels, and it's basically scared me away form playing them for fear of being called a racist...

the old Citadel paint Dark Flesh was a great base for an African skintone...

i don't even know what to say about calling the Salamanders "blackface minstrels"...
that is a hell of a stretch...
since they switched the skintone, it makes the juxtaposition of the Salamanders being the Chapter that cares the most about humanity, yet looks the most demonic of all the Space Marines, very interesting and striking...
anyone who would call you a racist for painting Marines with coal black skin and red eyes is probably not someone you want to be hanging out with anyway...

ironically, Salamanders were originally painted with dark skintones, and where never painted as Caucasian...
combine that with their volcanic planet and their love of fire, and it has always made me think that they were Hawaiian...
unlike Psienesis's claim, there is nothing in the fluff that says they are white to begin with...
the normal people of the planet could very easily have a Polynesian skintone, that goes coal black with the Geneseed implant...


@Wyzilla: i really liked the Native American representation of the Dark Angels in Deathwing...
they were written as complete badasses, so i don't see why it is a good thing that their character was changed to be just another group of European knights...
whenever i get around to painting a DA Termie squad, they will definitely be an homage to Two-Heads Talking and his homies...

@the OP: there is definitely some racial diversity in the Imperium, but it wouldn't hurt to have more...
although, it seems that GW is moving away from real world influences in the Imperium, which ends up making it seem way more homogenized than it used to be, sadly...

cheers
jah

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
I wouldn't even say it is subconscious racism. It is PURE laziness.

Subconscious racism and laziness are quite well intertwined.

Uh, subconscious rascism? intertwined with laziness?

Whatever happened to the matter of racism (which is a product of irrationality) being a matter of choice than being classified as some mental illness?

I guess I don't 'believe' in subconcious racism. I do believe that there is a cultural imprint, and that there is a propensity to lean on items that identify you with that. In natural terms this infers skin colour and, there is nothing wrong with preferring one culture over another, though, it is wrong/illogical to judge a culture or person of skin colour alone.

Pluralism can be good, but shaming those who don't agree with it is counter to its own mission/logic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
As if clogging the internet with professional victimhood isn't bad enough SJWs continue their crusade into fictional sci-fi settings. Onward Sarkeesian soldiers!

It's only a matter of time before each boxed set has every ethnicity, disability & gender combination available.

It'll indeed be a sad, yet funny sight to see guardsman in motorized wheelchairs - at least the orks can have their grins once they loot em.

No one wants this. People want appropriate representation of other types of people besides white men. A more inclusive 40k is a better 40k.

What is appropriate to some isn't appropriate to others. As to who's more correct is a matter of belief but they can't both be right.

Being progressively inclusive isn't selling the fiction, its selling a product.

True great works are not determined by a majority.

Having Cadian kits being all male is an innaccurate representation of the Cadian Shock Troops. Men and women are both inducted into the guard so there is no reason to not have female guardsmen. I would say in this case female representation is entirely appropriate.

In addition, how is 40K being more inclusive not appropriate to others? I get female Space Marines being out the window (I am a proponent of an all-male Astartes order) but why should a fiction not being all about white bald men be some kind of exception? Why would 40K compromise it's integrity as a artistic body of work (as if the retcons to sell models didn't already do that)?

First, to let you know, I am that guy that believes that there is such a thing as bad/awful art. I am that guy that will tell you that there is such a thing as horrible 'music' - Just to give you an idea where I'm coming from.

In reality, I don't agree with women serving in combat roles, but that doesn't mean in a fake universe that even those fake people on those fake worlds hold my same ideal to be true - granted. Unfortunately the effect of their choice magically working is what I usually have reservation with (not just 40k) - I think it actually takes away from the reality it plays on - thus the story becomes less interesting in ways (at least for the sane reader). I am more prone to believe that something like this comes from 'politicalness' being asserted into the lore (rather than inserted).

Even with Cadia standing on the brink, why on earth would you put the one resource you have in jeopardy? (Bodies - Mothers happen to produce & raise these ) I can understand maybe in a militia/pdf but if it got to that point, being refugees would be more advantageous so to not risk 'stock'. Its a very callous view, but you're talking about a very callous people, that surely would think of these things.

If the people of cadia were vat grown, I suppose it would reduce the logical problem I see there. However, why vat grow women to be warriors when you could have the biological/mental advantage men have in warfare?

Plus, the imperial guard plastics are sort of the standard general template for the Astra Militarum abroad - not just the cadians. So, if you want diversity in them, ok - let's make it an upgrade kit. /shrug.

 jah-joshua wrote:

combine that with their volcanic planet and their love of fire, and it has always made me think that they were Hawaiian...

You know, I was going to say I disagreed with the Hawaiian part as they reminded me of Tosh from SC2 and Ronon from Stargate: Atlantis, due to some of their artwork... But I looked it up and the guy who played Ronon (Jason Momoa) is actually Hawaiian.

So yea, totally see it now.

Edit: On a side note, wow is Jason Momoa talented. I had no idea he played Khal Drogo.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Having Cadian kits being all male is an innaccurate representation of the Cadian Shock Troops. Men and women are both inducted into the guard so there is no reason to not have female guardsmen. I would say in this case female representation is entirely appropriate.

Again, pure laziness. The current Cadian kit is from 5th ed and is the same models from even earlier than that, they just reboxed them. They must be some of the oldest plastics in the game now. If we got a new kit for them then there might be some women in there and they might not all have the same potato face.




As for lazy = racist, feel free to go ahead and actually explain how that works instead of just stating it as if it were fact.

In reality, I don't agree with women serving in combat roles, but that doesn't mean in a fake universe that even those fake people on those fake worlds hold my same ideal to be true - granted. Unfortunately the effect of their choice magically working is what I usually have reservation with (not just 40k) - I think it actually takes away from the reality it plays on - thus the story becomes less interesting in ways (at least for the sane reader). I am more prone to believe that something like this comes from 'politicalness' being asserted into the lore (rather than inserted).

women don't do combat in western armies not because they are worse soldiers, but because western man have the tendency to protect them and line units with women have a higher death toll, because of it as soldiers do stuff they wouldn't do for male soldiers. But if you have a sociaty that does not care what your gender is at all, but only if you can get off those 4 precise shots within a minute with your overheating lasgun, then a female soldier makes sense.

In africa they use children and teens of both sex as soldiers. Very effective at pacification and not much worse, then regular local troops. In vietnam and china there were ton of female combatants too.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Having Cadian kits being all male is an innaccurate representation of the Cadian Shock Troops. Men and women are both inducted into the guard so there is no reason to not have female guardsmen. I would say in this case female representation is entirely appropriate.

Again, pure laziness. The current Cadian kit is from 5th ed and is the same models from even earlier than that, they just reboxed them. They must be some of the oldest plastics in the game now. If we got a new kit for them then there might be some women in there and they might not all have the same potato face.




As for lazy = racist, feel free to go ahead and actually explain how that works instead of just stating it as if it were fact.

Female models existed before the Cadians were sculpted. Hell, if I'm not mistaken there were female Guardsmen too. Saying "they're old" isn't a good excuse for the lack of women in the kit. I would accept "They did it to make all parts interchangeable" as female models would require different bodies.

Laziness is just another word for subconscious discrimination. On page 1 I gave a break down of this to Las but, in summation, white older men* work on 40k. White 30 year old men paint the miniatures, draw the artwork and do the sculpts. These white, older men grew up in a culture where white men is considered the default. You can see this is countless works of fiction produced by "Western" culture. In their minds, "White heterosexual adult man" is the default while qualities such as "Gay, woman or different skin color" are exceptions. This is one manifestation of subconscious discrimination or racism if we are using the 21st century usage of the term. This is why a faction that features women as much as if not more than women is an exceptional case. If that subconscious discrimination weren't there we would have ~50% females in our miniatures. Same goes for race. We would see all kinds of skin tones amongst Eldar, humans and any other humanoid race.

On a tangent, is it more or are Elves as a whole "Mighty whitey" made manifest?

@kveldulf

Well, not all Cadian army personnel are on the front line serving (read: dying) for the Emperor. Cadian regiments cycle in and out of the Cadian Interior Guard giving any Guardswomen time to rear children for the state. Additionally, they still produce bodies for the Shock Troops. White Shields are the sons and daughters of Guardsmen who are eager to prove themselves worthy of the title "Guardsmen". There are also the tons of Cadians still at their home world fulfilling jobs like engineering, services and other civilian tasks. Not all people in the army are on the front line after all.

Whatever physical differences between the genders is moot in the Imperial Guard. LAsguns have so little recoil old people and children could fire them straight and Cadians are trained from birth to operate them. It doesn't take a macho man to stand in a trench and fire flashlight at those Ork boyz before they chop you to pieces.

*Disclaimer: I am not a proponent of identity politics. I think it is intellectual cancer and I hope it dies soon.

 jonolikespie wrote:


As for lazy = racist, feel free to go ahead and actually explain how that works instead of just stating it as if it were fact.

It's a stupid American thing. I mean we are the country that censored the words "Naega" (I/myself) and "Nega" (you) in K-pop songs on the radio because it was too close to a racial slur when sung... Yea...

There is censorship in the US

 Tinkrr wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:


As for lazy = racist, feel free to go ahead and actually explain how that works instead of just stating it as if it were fact.

It's a stupid American thing. I mean we are the country that censored the words "Naega" (I/myself) and "Nega" (you) in K-pop songs on the radio because it was too close to a racial slur when sung... Yea...

Sadly it is a mentality spreading here in Australia as well.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:


As for lazy = racist, feel free to go ahead and actually explain how that works instead of just stating it as if it were fact.

It's a stupid American thing. I mean we are the country that censored the words "Naega" (I/myself) and "Nega" (you) in K-pop songs on the radio because it was too close to a racial slur when sung... Yea...

Sadly it is a mentality spreading here in Australia as well.

Oh hey, you have it worse. At first glance I saw a Brit flag but yea Australia is pretty awful with some of the gaming stuff in particular.

Really, I think it just comes down to how you approach a topic when it comes to views of human mentality. It's sort of like pessimism and optimism, except with maliciousness and not-maliciousness, actually it's exactly pessimism and optimism because it depends on how you view the outlook of others. It's just weird to me that more and more people assume general oversight or whatever else is a result of malicious nature instead of anything else.

Just going back to the OP for a sec, I got the impression that the question was more about the fluff rather than the artwork or GWs studio paintjobs, to which I would say read a book. BL books are full of that since, well, they actually add some depth to the worlds and cultures of the imperium where the codexs kind of just prop up poor caricatures and tend to be a good introduction to an army but a terrible introduction to a race.

Makumba wrote:
There is censorship in the US

Oh, yeah, tons of it. It's really strange too. Bloody violence is alright but nudity/sex? Think of the Children! What would little Johnny and Timmy do if they saw a nipple?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Makumba wrote:
There is censorship in the US

Oh, yeah, tons of it. It's really strange too. Bloody violence is alright but nudity/sex? Think of the Children! What would little Johnny and Timmy do if they saw a nipple?

A chest, not just a nipple... I've worked a bunch of conventions and the weirdest thing I've encountered was a group of male FF(something) coseplayers being told by building security their bear chest was not allowed. They were not allowed to just cover the nipple area and go about their way either, but luckily the cosplay staff that was part of the convention and not the venue helped them make "chest-shirts" that fit their cosplay.

That is crazy, well I guess you can't be a great country without it.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Makumba wrote:
There is censorship in the US

Oh, yeah, tons of it. It's really strange too. Bloody violence is alright but nudity/sex? Think of the Children! What would little Johnny and Timmy do if they saw a nipple?

I caught the Jeopardy episode that Penn Jillette did (where they could SHOW the WORD "Bull****" but bleeped out him SAYING it.).

Nothing illustrates that dichotomy of right/wrong and crazy mindset better.

Given 38,000 years of further "blending" (because us whiteys HAVE appeared in the last 40,000 years for the most part), who knows what humans will actually look like? The "cradle of mankind" was Africa, right, where "we" began, right? But the caucasian types only manifested after northern migration to an area with a cooler climate?

Unless planets are settled by entire geno and pheno-types, so you might get the planet of the all-dark-skinned people and the planet of the all-pale-skinned people - but even then, if the environment is different to the conditions that allowed that set of changes to manifest on Earth, it will change anyway. So to maintain the groups "as is" they would have to settle worlds that resemble their home environs and NOT move to other parts of it. The monoclimate planet. Hoth, Tattooine (which doesn't even have icecaps), etc.

 chromedog wrote:
But the caucasian types only manifested after northern migration to an area with a cooler climate?

The white race is really messy to be honest and based on who you ask it could include anyone from just Europeans to Europeans, Japanese, Chinese, Mongols, and Arabs. Oh and in some cases Indians.

Also, if you ask some people, they find it offensive that "Caucasian" is used for white people because most white people aren't from the Caucasus mountain region. I've known Armenians to be particularly touchy on the subject.

Edit: Oh, and don't get me started on us Russians... We're messed up.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Just paint people of different ethnicities. And I have no idea where the "dark skin tone is harder to paint!" argument comes from. I actually started with painting dark skinned folks for my Space Marines because I found it easier.

Well, there are a bunch of paints for specifically white people skin, but haven't seen any for others, seems you'd need to mix your own.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Salamanders are not African-black, they are asphalt black. They are white dudes with jet-black skin and glowing red eyes because of an environmental reaction in their geneseed.

That's basically my issue with them, would be totally fine with the Salamanders if they just happened to be black people but as it is... They're basically a whole chapter of blackface minstrels, and it's basically scared me away form playing them for fear of being called a racist...

What's funny is that they were before.
Apparently, that was a misunderstanding, and they were always supposed to be jet black with red eyes.
Which is an odd mutation; I understand the jet black skin, but where did the glowing red eyes come from?

Makumba wrote:

In reality, I don't agree with women serving in combat roles, but that doesn't mean in a fake universe that even those fake people on those fake worlds hold my same ideal to be true - granted. Unfortunately the effect of their choice magically working is what I usually have reservation with (not just 40k) - I think it actually takes away from the reality it plays on - thus the story becomes less interesting in ways (at least for the sane reader). I am more prone to believe that something like this comes from 'politicalness' being asserted into the lore (rather than inserted).

women don't do combat in western armies not because they are worse soldiers, but because western man have the tendency to protect them and line units with women have a higher death toll, because of it as soldiers do stuff they wouldn't do for male soldiers. But if you have a sociaty that does not care what your gender is at all, but only if you can get off those 4 precise shots within a minute with your overheating lasgun, then a female soldier makes sense.

In africa they use children and teens of both sex as soldiers. Very effective at pacification and not much worse, then regular local troops. In vietnam and china there were ton of female combatants too.

The most ideal soldier is male /shrug. That's just what nature shows us. If you disagree with that go talk to God or the universe, matter, whatever you believe, to get more justification than what is already made evident.
Men are made differently than females and the way they are made indicate an aptitude for labor/resilience; its just apparent from science. Even the brains are biologically different. There may be outliers but I would even hold most of them guilty of some political foofoo. Even then, the exceptional case doesn't change the natural generality/course.

Please don't confuse my words with me saying: men>women. I can see some people going there, and that's not at all where I'm coming from. Men are simply made differently to fulfill certain tasks better than women as women have the same counter - that they can do certain things better than men.

And yea, sure you can pop a weapon in any persons hands, but that doesn't mean they're the most ideal person for war. Usually warfare means more than running out there with a weapon - it usually means things like humping hills with 60+ lbs of gear among other physical/psychological trials. In the matter of unit cohesion, it's fundamentally based on less differences than more; ones gender incorporates many polarizing differences from the effect of physical body appearance, hormonal levels, and inadvertent sociological attachments to additional overhead requirements to facilitate multiple genders. These differences are utterly profound and is more the antithesis to cohesion. Unfortunately, most people don't like thinking of this line of reasoning because its easier to equivocate everything that discern the truth of the matter.

Anyone disagreeing with me on this I don't think really is disagreeing with me; but really the purpose of what nature/natures God makes obvious.

OMG why are we having this discussion again? lol.

 kveldulf wrote:

The most ideal soldier is male /shrug. That's just what nature shows us. If you disagree with that go talk to God or the universe, matter, whatever you believe.

Oh boy, I want to reply to this before you get lynched basically.

To start off, yes males were better as soldiers when it was a matter of physical strength, and that was a large part of our history. However, as technology becomes more advanced the male and female dynamic becomes less of an issue of physical ability, and more of mental one. After all, shield slamming someone, or wielding many melee weapons in the past favoured men in combat due to their physical aptitude, but things such as guns really made it accessible for the average woman to participate as it didn't matter as much when it came to physical build.

You do make a point about the weight of gear, but remember this is far in the future, where technology is far evolved and we have lighter metals, in addition to cybernetics, so more and more women would be able to enter the fighting force. That's not to even talk about any planet that might favour females in terms of evolution and as such make them better combatants. It's just kind of silly to look at historical aspects when people have robotic parts that allow them to surpass current human strength significantly.

So yea, while I get why you believe what you do, I don't agree with you. In a world of super advanced robots and magic (psykers and more) you can't really bring in historical aspects that favoured men over women, especially when in our modern age they're becoming amazingly irrelevant. I mean even if you want to argue that women still are somehow less suited for combat, what about the super awesome female aircraft pilot, or tank driver, or anything else that doesn't depend on the things you mentioned? There's a reason they call it the "chair force", instead of the air force, these days, even if it's insulting you can imagine how much future advancement would make it easier.

So yea, I read your whole post and I just disagree with you. I don't think your view on the matter is fair, as technology really allows us to break the bearers of gender for the most part, even today. I'm just trying to approach your views in a reasonable and polite manner.

The very first depiction of Salamanders was with dark African skin tones.

(thesixth picture in this blog post)

Then, the next depiction in 1992 was a white chap:
[url=http://m1.paperblog.com/i/158/1584145/battle-for-armageddon-chaos-attack-L-UN0Nk0.jpeg]

Codex: Armageddon in 2000 showed them as reasonably racially diverse (a white sergeant and an African-looking captain, although he still had the blond 'do from the 80s painting guide).

By the time of the 5th edition we had the jet-black skin and red eyes, although I don't know if that was actually introduced in the 4th edition. I'm going to put the "they were always supposed to be coal-black" up there with "I always intended there to be nine Star Wars films, right from the beginning".

The "Dark Flesh" paint was useful, although it was quite reddish, rather than properly "black". Vallejo Model Color has a dark flesh colour, and the Perry Miniatures website has a method of painting dark, central African skin tones which works well.

I did hear a rumour once that the lack of non-white faces was due to more than just laziness, but I've only ever heard it from one source, so I don't give it much credence.

It's not just the painting, though; all the miniatures have European facial features, and just painting them black looks odd; I tried it once, and what I actually ended up with was an army of Indians rather than Africans.

Saying "but all Imperial Guardsmen in a regiment will look the same because they're from the one planet" makes no sense; just look around you for the counter-evidence. You might end up with something odd, though (the Honor Harrington novels have a planet that was populated by colonists of African descent, but who have lost their skin pigmentation due to the low light levels on their planet; they have pasty white skin and blond hair, but their features and kinky hair are still African).

I could see black Space Wolves working (If it's good enough for Heimdall ...); fatty fish are a good source of Vitamin D, so dark skin shouldn't be a detriment even in the winters.

Any in-universe discussion isn't ultimately a reason, though. Basically, no-one chose to commission or approve visual artwork, for whatever reason. I agree with the OP that it's something that should be rectified. It's not something I'm going to do anything about, but I don't understand the backlash.

 Tinkrr wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:

The most ideal soldier is male /shrug. That's just what nature shows us. If you disagree with that go talk to God or the universe, matter, whatever you believe.

Oh boy, I want to reply to this before you get lynched basically.

To start off, yes males were better as soldiers when it was a matter of physical strength, and that was a large part of our history. However, as technology becomes more advanced the male and female dynamic becomes less of an issue of physical ability, and more of mental one. After all, shield slamming someone, or wielding many melee weapons in the past favoured men in combat due to their physical aptitude, but things such as guns really made it accessible for the average woman to participate as it didn't matter as much when it came to physical build.

You do make a point about the weight of gear, but remember this is far in the future, where technology is far evolved and we have lighter metals, in addition to cybernetics, so more and more women would be able to enter the fighting force. That's not to even talk about any planet that might favour females in terms of evolution and as such make them better combatants. It's just kind of silly to look at historical aspects when people have robotic parts that allow them to surpass current human strength significantly.

So yea, while I get why you believe what you do, I don't agree with you. In a world of super advanced robots and magic (psykers and more) you can't really bring in historical aspects that favoured men over women, especially when in our modern age they're becoming amazingly irrelevant. I mean even if you want to argue that women still are somehow less suited for combat, what about the super awesome female aircraft pilot, or tank driver, or anything else that doesn't depend on the things you mentioned? There's a reason they call it the "chair force", instead of the air force, these days, even if it's insulting you can imagine how much future advancement would make it easier.


So yea, I read your whole post and I just disagree with you. I don't think your view on the matter is fair, as technology really allows us to break the bearers of gender for the most part, even today. I'm just trying to approach your views in a reasonable and polite manner.

Even in a fantastical universe with high tech, fundamentals still need to be paid attention to or you risk running a string of fouls that will make things convoluted. If the universe is meant to be solely a 'magical' appearance, that's fine, but that's not 40k.

Also, physical strength isn't just some thing to poo on (marginalize) with fancy tech. Strength is sort of a generic term anyway as it could mean multiple things. For men, physical brawn is one of some distinct differences/strengths: the digestive system, the circulatory system, greater activation of the Hypothalamus-Pituitary, hormonal advantage, neural connections are different - with advantages associated to them etc.

Sociological basics can only be abandoned so much in a setting before it becomes some sort of propaganda in the lore (good), or to the reader (bad). Sure, okay, there may be a female pilot, driver etc. That isn't the point. Just because women can do these things doesn't make them the most ideal person to do it - particularly in warfare, where physical ability is only one parameter (as important as that is). Uniformity in a military is paramount for morale, command. The more you deviate from this the more problematic command becomes. Gender differences in a military cause more problems than they 'solve'.

I'd suspect that even the 'chair force' is operated on less than ideal parameters - to facilitate political musings the public demands. Sure you can portray that in a universe, and maybe even done in some believable sense, but generally speaking, its counter to what we understand to the already efficient things nature has made clear.

If equal rights is really the issue you're getting at, go talk to the enforcer over nyah and see how much he cares about your qualms of the child quota you need to meet. Pretty grim eh?
I sure wouldn't want to imagine actually living through that.... so I just remember that its intentionally awful and not meant to be a feel good LOTR land. Less grim is less warhammer eh?

This again...

No-one is stopping you from creating your own ethnicity models. GW Gestapo won't come round your house and smash your models if you do. Same with females. No-one is stopping you. Do it. I'd like to see you make a non-offensive version.

With regards to female Guardsmen, have you actually looked at any of FFG's female guardsmen in Only War? They're there. Female Mordians, Cadians, Vostroyans, Catachans etc. So don't use any BS of saying there is no GW art of female guardsmen. A decent reason why the models don't show this is because: HAVE YOU TRIED LOOKING AT IMAGES OF WOMEN IN FULL BATTLE ATTIRE? They look indistinguishable. To prove:
Doesn't look too different, does it?

As for different ethnicities, I'll echo what others have said. The artists draw what they like. Look at images of White Scars as an asian example. Easily done, with models too. I also have the pleasure of living fairly close (30 mins) away from GW Central, and I can easily say that the vast (as in, there are hardly any exception) majority of people in there are pasty-faced caucasians. Myself included. As in, it's pretty much needle in the haystack otherwise. Can you blame them for only drawing what they see every day? As for freelance artists, they have less excuse, why don't you pester them instead of GW? And Black Library? ITS CANON. Mersadie Oliton, heard of her? Jonah Orion? Jajjo? Midas and Medea Betancore?

 Melissia wrote:
Nobody cares what you think about "SJWs", whatever that might mean this particular minute to you. That's not the topic of discussion.

And yet you're pretty quick to jump to conclusions (always either racism or sexism) about people's motivations to paint models that you don't own as if people cared. Welcome to forums, feel free to get offended by everything.

Man, some of you really remind me of how gakky nerds can be. "Don't get your coloured people/women in my White dude power fantasy game you rabid SJW! You can take our jobs but you can't take my damn space marines!"

 Las wrote:
Man, some of you really remind me of how gakky nerds can be. "Don't get your coloured people/women in my White dude power fantasy game you rabid SJW! You can take our jobs but you can't take my damn space marines!"

Yup. Definitely voting you are a troll, since NO ONE has said this. Or anything remotely close to this.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I should also mention that this sort of thread has popped up lots of times.. and always gets bogged down with silly arguments.

la plus ca change.