Hi,

Do you have any favorite compositions for a squad of Devastators? I recently built quite a few of them, and would like to field 2 - 3 squads in a single Dark Angels 1500-point list for fun, not for a tournament. I'm having hard time picking which weapon options to go for. I don't have any drop pods, unfortunately. Should probably get a couple.

I was thinking maybe:

- 2 Grav Cannons, 2 Multi-Meltas, 1 combi-grav
- 2 Plasma Cannons, 2 Heavy Bolters, 1 combi-plasma
- 2 Lascannons, 2 Missile Launchers

Or would I be better off going with 4 of the same weapon in each squad? Although 4 grav's cost too much I think.

I don't know much about SM, but I would recommend sticking with the same 4 guns, as different guns have different range.

Thanks for the suggestion. However I did combine the 2+2 guns in the OP that both have the same range, e.g. Grav and Multi-Melta both have 24", Plasma Cannon and Heavy Bolter both have 36", and Lascannon and Missile Launcher both have 48".

Perhaps the combi-weapon is a waste of points, it does have shorter range.

I'd say go for Lascannons and MLs. If you have the weapon model (and 10 more points) i'd go full lascannon, keep in mind that a 5 man squad in quite fragile though. So, after losing the Sarge, you lose 34 points every casualty.

Multi-Melta works best at close range so I wouldn't advise it on devastators. Also every gun works in different way, each is suited for a specific task and has drawbacks (HB is suited for light infantry, PC for heavy infantry/light vehicle, LC for long range tank hunting, GC for low armor save models and skimmers). If you want flexibility just go with 4 Missile Launchers. If you have the points for it, go for 4 of the same. If you don't have or you want 2+2 guns, just split the unit in two so you could have two units of the same weapons.

That's an interesting point about splitting the units. I could go for 2+2 weapons, add some padding and split a 10-man unit into two 5 man squads with 2 heavy weapons each.

Hmm, I could make six of those squads with weapons as per the original post for 630 pts (with no combi-weapons for sarges). Sensible? Surely not. Fun? Quite likely!

I still think 4 of the same is the way to go. I'd probably opt for either ML or Las, ML still gives some flexibility but Las is good as a dedicated tank hunter.

D

Outside of Skyhammer formation, 4 lascannon and a few bolter meatshield, then put them in some high rise ruins (towers, etc.) is the best way to use Devastator. Bouns if you also take a TFC and boost defence.

Yeah outside of skyhammer they aren't very viable. But in skyhammer I'd go 8 melta guns. Cheap, and gives you a nice method of eliminating super heavies or critical vehicles on the drop. Even against a tooled eldar list that leans on a Wraith Knight you can peel open the d sythe serpent then dump assault marines in then without overwatch.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. The Skyhammer is not an option since I play Dark Angels. I guess I could play them as vanilla marines on occasion if I wanted to, but for now I'm looking at DA tactics. I often face Eldar with a Wraithknight, a Wraithlord, + some Wraithguard, and Chaos Daemons with a Bloodthirster and a Daemon Prince.

Any suggestions as to which weapon loadouts would be most useful against the aforementioned?

5 Duders, 2x Lascannons, Armorium Cherub [if you can take them] and a Rhino. Put them in cover, and you have a tough outer shell that gets a cover save, and you can still fire the two weapons from the top.

Fewer weapons means that the benefit of the Signum goes farther, and with the Marine's high BS, you'll probably only need to use the ArCh once in the first three turns, by which point they should have done some damage.


Otherwise, I'd probably suggest a pair of Plasma Cannon or MultiMelta, with ArCh, depending on how aggressive your opponent approaches them. If you can boost a Ruin, then leaving them on foot is another option, but a Rhino with an MEQ cover save is nothing to sneeze at.

For the Eldar, having low AP high strength weapons is handy to deal with the Ghosts, but also to deal with their Vehicles, and Jetbikes. For Daemons, the high strength is most important since their Invul is going to neuter the AP value.

I do the same thing, plasma cannon heavy bolter, lascannon missile launcher and it has always worked out fine for me (also DA player) and gives you a bit of tactical flexibility to boot. But then again I play for fun, if this is for a competitive list then I may not be the best with advice

a unit of 10 split into 2 combat squads.

Sit them in a tac marine squadss rhinos for Obj sec?

Thanks again for many suggestions, some good ideas there. I might try the 2 Lascannon in a Rhino option and a second squad with the 2+2 combo like I planned.

AT - 4 grav cannons
AA - 4 Grav cannons
AI - 4 Grav Cannons
Orks and daemons? - 4 grav cannons still out performs all the other options.

Las Cannons as a maybe for IF guys

Grav for generics (but can get expensive)

MM for Skyhammer Devs (because Drop Pod into melta)

Even drop pod into melta range, the Grav Cannon out preforms however they are much more expensive.

 Nadir wrote:
I don't know much about SM, but I would recommend sticking with the same 4 guns, as different guns have different range.

Never mix guns in devastator squads, booze (If you start with beer, never finish with tequila), or your ex's name with your current fling.

4x missile launchers is my go-to.

I prefer missile launchers for most squads, never a mix of guns though, and no upgrade on sgt. Sgt is just there to eat a wound so my heavy weapons can survive longer.

Missile launchers are so bad, though.

4x missile launchers. Give them flakk.

It's a massive headache for an opponent if they have flyers. Especially if you have a cheap prescience libby with them. Even if your opponent doesn't have flyers, missile launchers are so flexible being able to take out light to medium armour and hordes with their blasts.

I think missile launchers are hugely underrated. If your opponent does have flyers, watch him waste a turn of shooting trying to focus them down in turn 1. Keeping them in cover or behind an aegis defence line is crucial.

Except that small blasts don't take out hordes. And krak missiles can't engage 2+ armor. So much for your flexibility.

Devastators have 2 uses really IMO: 1) in a display cabinet looking pretty 2) Skyhammer. If you use option two here have one squad with gravcannons and one with multi-meltas.

Martel732 wrote:
Except that small blasts don't take out hordes. And krak missiles can't engage 2+ armor. So much for your flexibility.

To be fair, 2+ doesn't come up THAT often. I agree with the first statement though to an extent.

2+ doesn't come up often? Really? Smashbane, centurions, Riptides, DKs, assault terminators, broadsides?

Who cares about Assault Terminators and Broadsides?

Its not like no one uses them though. To be fair, if assault termies are used 99% of the time its a 3++ because more or less everyone uses THSS.

Back on topic, I always use 4 of the same. That means you always are optimized for the job the squad is required to do.

I rarely use devs in favour of centurions. Even if you don't want to use grav cannons on them, they always seem better in mostly every way.

Dark angels don't have cents so stuck with devs.

I like the classic combo even if I know its not the best (I find its fun to roll all the scatters)

4 x plasma cannons (and a divination libby to givem twin linked)

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
Devastators have 2 uses really IMO: 1) in a display cabinet looking pretty 2) Skyhammer. If you use option two here have one squad with gravcannons and one with multi-meltas.

You forgot option 3) Pretending to be tacticals to unlock battle demi-companies. I've written up more than a couple of lists with two devastator squads, each with no heavies at all and a transport of some description.

There's definitely something to be said for cheap 5-man devastator squads with free Razorbacks or Rhinos. I'd be inclined to add 3-4 missile launchers or lascannons to the former squad, or 2 multimeltas or grav cannons to the latter.

I don't think I've ever considered missile launchers to be bad. They're not as versatile as grav but they will find something to shoot at, right? More often than bolters will? So bring 'em, if you can't afford something better.

I think if you're running Imperial Fists, missile Launchers are a very viable option as Tank Hunters give them a good chance to hurt vehicles.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I think if you're running Imperial Fists, missile Launchers are a very viable option as Tank Hunters give them a good chance to hurt vehicles.

Maybe. But I really hesitate to bring a heavy support unit that can neither a) engage hordes or b) crack 2+ armor.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I think if you're running Imperial Fists, missile Launchers are a very viable option as Tank Hunters give them a good chance to hurt vehicles.

He's not using Imperial Fists though.

For hordes do you all prefer heavy bolters or plasma cannons?

Exalbaru wrote:
For hordes do you all prefer heavy bolters or plasma cannons?

TFCs and Whirlwinds. Both have built-in ignores cover. The only devastators I'd even entertain are 4Xlascannon or 4Xgrav.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
4x missile launchers. Give them flakk.

It's a massive headache for an opponent if they have flyers. Especially if you have a cheap prescience libby with them. Even if your opponent doesn't have flyers, missile launchers are so flexible being able to take out light to medium armour and hordes with their blasts.

I think missile launchers are hugely underrated. If your opponent does have flyers, watch him waste a turn of shooting trying to focus them down in turn 1. Keeping them in cover or behind an aegis defence line is crucial.

That set up all told costs more than a fire raptor, which could easily eat it in one turn, then pivot and start devouring the rest of your army


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Martel732 wrote:

Exalbaru wrote:
For hordes do you all prefer heavy bolters or plasma cannons?

TFCs and Whirlwinds. Both have built-in ignores cover. The only devastators I'd even entertain are 4Xlascannon or 4Xgrav.

What this guy said. Whirlwinds are crazy cheap, also. Like cheap as an unupgraded combat squad of tacs

I run 3ML and 1LC, and run a libby near by. I'll typically confer the signum to the the LC.

Martel732 wrote:

Exalbaru wrote:
For hordes do you all prefer heavy bolters or plasma cannons?

TFCs and Whirlwinds. Both have built-in ignores cover. The only devastators I'd even entertain are 4Xlascannon or 4Xgrav.

Valid, I don't have access to TFC in any of my armies, but I really do love whirlwinds. Plus nobody ever is expecting you to pull one out.

I'm a fan of either 4x missile launchers or 4x lascannons

Exalbaru wrote:
For hordes do you all prefer heavy bolters or plasma cannons?

My PCs tend to disappoint me all the time. HBs, while overall a little lackluster, do have the duel advantages of costing peanuts and looking cool. So given the choice between them, the bolters win out.

But as others have pointed out, if you are using a HS slot and need anti-horde firepower, there are much better options. For the cost of a HB dev squad you can have a pair of WWs. WWs are basically HB’ing everything under a large blast, so a pair of them is going to do more damage for the most part.

Keeping the same guns in a Dev squad is primary. Really, any combinations will work but here's my thoughts:

Plasma Cannons: good for anti-horde/Termie killers, but can get pricey and no snapshots.

Missile Launchers: really good for anything.

Lascannons: long range AP2 and tank hunters.

Grav Cannons: can get pricey, but really good all around. Devs kind of get beat out by Grav Centurions/Grav Attack Bikes, but still good.

Heavy Bolters: meh, not bad, but overcosted for their points. Really good if you have Iron Fists for re-rolling 1's.

Multi Melta: best in Drop Pods and especially good in the Skyhammer formation.

Some chapter tactics can make some of the options better.

MM- are great in drop pods, esp. skyhammer [as many have said]

Heavy bolters- are not terrible, they are pretty much the worst option however. I wish they would make heavy bolters 36" salvo 4/6 or something..but that's a different matter.

Grav- Grav is amazing in every department except range. Devs don't have relentless normally or slow and purposeful so 24" salvo 3/5 is rough- although you can drop pod them in and get results where as most other things your snap shotting.

Missile launcher- I think this is the best all rounder for non skyhammer non drop pod devs. You can do anti infantry, you can do anti tank, you can do anti flyer from 48" Some people dislike missiles because AP3 and no melta, but with the ongoing shift away from armor save 2 models (most new MCs and GCs do not have armor save 2, few teq models are usually on a table) missiles are a lot better than people give credit for.

blaktoof wrote:
Some chapter tactics can make some of the options better.

MM- are great in drop pods, esp. skyhammer [as many have said]

Heavy bolters- are not terrible, they are pretty much the worst option however. I wish they would make heavy bolters 36" salvo 4/6 or something..but that's a different matter.

Grav- Grav is amazing in every department except range. Devs don't have relentless normally or slow and purposeful so 24" salvo 3/5 is rough- although you can drop pod them in and get results where as most other things your snap shotting.

Missile launcher- I think this is the best all rounder for non skyhammer non drop pod devs. You can do anti infantry, you can do anti tank, you can do anti flyer from 48" Some people dislike missiles because AP3 and no melta, but with the ongoing shift away from armor save 2 models (most new MCs and GCs do not have armor save 2, few teq models are usually on a table) missiles are a lot better than people give credit for.

Agreed on all points. I also think Grav Centurions/Grav Attack bikes are better than Grav Devs by far.

Why does anyone think the missile launcher is good at all? It fails at every task assigned to it.

Martel732 wrote:
Why does anyone think the missile launcher is good at all? It fails at every task assigned to it.

How? It's 10 points for a S8 AP3 48" range or a S4 AP5 Blast at 48". Sure, it's not amazing, but that's a pretty damn good default weapon.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why does anyone think the missile launcher is good at all? It fails at every task assigned to it.

How? It's 10 points for a S8 AP3 48" range or a S4 AP5 Blast at 48". Sure, it's not amazing, but that's a pretty damn good default weapon.

It'd be good if it was 10pts, but at 15pts its subpar at best.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why does anyone think the missile launcher is good at all? It fails at every task assigned to it.

How? It's 10 points for a S8 AP3 48" range or a S4 AP5 Blast at 48". Sure, it's not amazing, but that's a pretty damn good default weapon.

It'd be good if it was 10pts, but at 15pts its subpar at best.

Ah right, sorry, 15. Still, I think it's not bad for what it does (looking at you Heavy Bolter)

It is bad, because it does very little. The AP 3 kills the versatility of the krak missile, and small blasts are awful in general. I wouldn't pay 5 pts for it, because it's still a wasted heavy slot and the cost to field the meq to carry it.

"Sure, it's not amazing, but that's a pretty damn good default weapon."

No, it's actually awful. Quit thinking like an Imperial. Compare this thing to a scatterlaser.

Dev squads can't take scatter lasers.

Plasma Cannons are the best weapon per point when you hit 2 models or more with the blast. Otherwise, take the meltas.

remember that 2 can shoot from a Rhino, so you can do a rhino, 5 guys, 2 of them with Plasma or melta for decently cheap. Or Grav, since 2 of them isn't as crazy of an investment as 4. 4Grav dev squads are worthless (unless skyhammer, but still, just no)

nareik wrote:
Dev squads can't take scatter lasers.

Which is why you generally don't take dev squads.

God, if I'm hearing the word "Scatterlaser" again I'm gonna puke.

Go play Eldar if you want those fething lasers.
No, marines don't have scatterlasers, 3+/4++/4+++, D weapons, 18"+ movement every turn or any shenanigan Tau will come up with.

Please, every thread i read degenerates in "But it's not scatterlaser!!11!!1!".

Yes, they are broken, no marines don't have it.

Not everyone plays cuttthroat games, someone plays under-efficient units (like devs) because -gasp- they like it!
Or maybe the meta is so different/casual they actually work.
Plus as specified in OT he wants a FUN AND CASUAL LIST. he won't (hopefully) play agains AdLance, GravStars, Superfriends, Decuricrons, 5 Flyrants, Scatterbike spam and other gak 40k is practically full of.
Don't try to "ruin" everyone's view of the game because not everyone plays at the top tables of a tournament. Some pro-tips are reeeeally good, i admit, but we should try to tone down all this OP-nonsense that's around.

After all we need at least a friend to play this game.

P.S.
For my Imperial Fists I go with 4 Lascannons, or 10 men with 4 LC to split them up.

I've definitely changed my mind on missile launchers now everyone has pointed out they are only AP3. After all, most armies I face these days are composed entirely of 2+ saves...

Wait.

2+ COVER save :p


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Usually I play devs to do part of my anti tank, so lascannons, with their higher strength and lower ap they can 'splode something.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

nareik wrote:
Dev squads can't take scatter lasers.

Which is why you generally don't take dev squads.

Zodfrey wrote:
Do you have any favorite compositions for a squad of Devastators?

The question is what to take on devs, not whether to take them.

If you (collectively) really must so strongly suggest scatter lasers, perhaps suggest just take regular bolt guns on the devastator squads and used the points spared from heavy weapons for some scatterbike allies, but I think we both know that isn't the kind of answer the OP is looking for!

3 missile launchers.

For gins, 10 man squad with 2 plasma cannons and 2 lascannons and combat squad them! Yay, expensive as hell unit!

nareik wrote:
Dev squads can't take scatter lasers.

Irrelevant to the efficacy of the missile launcher compared to the field.


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 Lammikkovalas wrote:

nareik wrote:
Dev squads can't take scatter lasers.

Which is why you generally don't take dev squads.

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mathaius90 wrote:
God, if I'm hearing the word "Scatterlaser" again I'm gonna puke.

Go play Eldar if you want those fething lasers.
No, marines don't have scatterlasers, 3+/4++/4+++, D weapons, 18"+ movement every turn or any shenanigan Tau will come up with.

Please, every thread i read degenerates in "But it's not scatterlaser!!11!!1!".

Yes, they are broken, no marines don't have it.

Not everyone plays cuttthroat games, someone plays under-efficient units (like devs) because -gasp- they like it!
Or maybe the meta is so different/casual they actually work.
Plus as specified in OT he wants a FUN AND CASUAL LIST. he won't (hopefully) play agains AdLance, GravStars, Superfriends, Decuricrons, 5 Flyrants, Scatterbike spam and other gak 40k is practically full of.
Don't try to "ruin" everyone's view of the game because not everyone plays at the top tables of a tournament. Some pro-tips are reeeeally good, i admit, but we should try to tone down all this OP-nonsense that's around.

After all we need at least a friend to play this game.

P.S.
For my Imperial Fists I go with 4 Lascannons, or 10 men with 4 LC to split them up.

Pardon me for wanting a heavy weapon that actually is worth a feth. Imperial heavy weapons suck. Except grav.

"Please, every thread i read degenerates in "But it's not scatterlaser!!11!!1!". "

Because that weapon sets the bar for other weapons in the game. Whether casual players want to admit it or not. It's a mathematical reality.

Martel732 wrote:

nareik wrote:
Dev squads can't take scatter lasers.

Irrelevant to the efficacy of the missile launcher compared to the field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

nareik wrote:
Dev squads can't take scatter lasers.

Which is why you generally don't take dev squads.

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mathaius90 wrote:
God, if I'm hearing the word "Scatterlaser" again I'm gonna puke.

Go play Eldar if you want those fething lasers.
No, marines don't have scatterlasers, 3+/4++/4+++, D weapons, 18"+ movement every turn or any shenanigan Tau will come up with.

Please, every thread i read degenerates in "But it's not scatterlaser!!11!!1!".

Yes, they are broken, no marines don't have it.

Not everyone plays cuttthroat games, someone plays under-efficient units (like devs) because -gasp- they like it!
Or maybe the meta is so different/casual they actually work.
Plus as specified in OT he wants a FUN AND CASUAL LIST. he won't (hopefully) play agains AdLance, GravStars, Superfriends, Decuricrons, 5 Flyrants, Scatterbike spam and other gak 40k is practically full of.
Don't try to "ruin" everyone's view of the game because not everyone plays at the top tables of a tournament. Some pro-tips are reeeeally good, i admit, but we should try to tone down all this OP-nonsense that's around.

After all we need at least a friend to play this game.

P.S.
For my Imperial Fists I go with 4 Lascannons, or 10 men with 4 LC to split them up.

Pardon me for wanting a heavy weapon that actually is worth a feth. Imperial heavy weapons suck. Except grav.

"Please, every thread i read degenerates in "But it's not scatterlaser!!11!!1!". "

Because that weapon sets the bar for other weapons in the game. Whether casual players want to admit it or not. It's a mathematical reality.

Martel, again, SM suck. Eldar are the only thing to play. Thank you very much. You say this in every thread.

Now how about some actual discussion relative to the OP?

Actually, the marines have some advantages relative to Eldar. Vanilla marines, SW, and DA, of course, not BA. But non-grav heavy weapon selection is not one of them.

I already said 4 X grav or 4 X lascannon and nothing else. No ML. No HB. No PC. Those weapons are all awful. I'm just giving a reason why. Even the lascannon is pretty meh. But 48" S9 AP 2 does have its uses.

The scatterlaser sums up everything that is broken about Eldar nicely. It's cheaper and better than everyone else's guns.

But will OP encounter them en masse?
Probably not, so your comparison does not have any sense to exist in this contest.
MTG example : if I play T2 i don't prepare (or for what matters compare other T2 cards) for Force Of Will or UWr Miracles deck, because those belong to another format, Legacy.

Bonus example:
Obviously I won't go to Motogp with a scooter.

Scatterlasers and eldar are Motogp.
Martel plays in Motogp.

OP runs in the local circuit with his friends, have beers after the race and pass an afternoon having fun.
OP DOES NOT NEED A MOTOGP BIKE.

Martel732 wrote:
I already said 4 X grav or 4 X lascannon and nothing else. No ML. No HB. No PC. Those weapons are all awful. I'm just giving a reason why. Even the lascannon is pretty meh. But 48" S9 AP 2 does have its uses.

This is basically my assessment as well. Lascannons are decent because you can reliably cause wounds against high T or high AV targets from 48" away. Gravcannons are decent because you can cause tons of wounds at 36" away, or lots of wounds at 18" away + giving your devastators mobility. ML, HB and PC will just struggle to get their points back. Remember that each heavy weapon also has a 14pt marine attached to it, so even a HB devastator costs 70% of the points of a Lascannon Devastator.

Multimeltas are a special case. They work well as part of a Skyhammer formation, or as part of Salamander's detachment with Vulkan, but you wouldn't want to take them otherwise (range is just too low).

Forgot MMs, but they are so much better on attack bikes or speeders. They have a place (maybe) in skyhammer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mathaius90 wrote:
But will OP encounter them en masse?
Probably not, so your comparison does not have any sense to exist in this contest.
MTG example : if I play T2 i don't prepare (or for what matters compare other T2 cards) for Force Of Will or UWr Miracles deck, because those belong to another format, Legacy.

Bonus example:
Obviously I won't go to Motogp with a scooter.

Scatterlasers and eldar are Motogp.
Martel plays in Motogp.

OP runs in the local circuit with his friends, have beers after the race and pass an afternoon having fun.
OP DOES NOT NEED A MOTOGP BIKE.

The scatterlaser makes casual Eldar lists monstrous vs other casual lists. The gulf is even bigger, I think, than with competitive lists because the non-Eldar player likely can't silence the guns nearly fast enough. The fact that scatterlasers kill infantry, transports and MCs still blows my mind.


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Oh, and I'll quit talking about the scatterlaser when I quit getting tabled by it. And others quit getting crushed by it.

That's weird, because I have yet to see one scatterbike, we have fun without cheesy lists where every unit can have a role. Heck, the resident chaos player uses warp talons and a land raider and has a good chance of winning. Because we set ourselves some limit on units, since we acknowledged the existence of interpersonal relationships and agreed to have fun together, not one at a time.

Surely we must be getting something wrong then.

But you're right and everybody's wrong, ok.
_____

Maybe you should kit the devastators to complement the rest of your army, but they really shine in the AV compartment.

Grav cannons are the way to go. IMO

Either that or Lascannons,

Pretty much every Imperial Heavy weapon could take a 5 pt price drop and still be underwhelming.

Except Grav. Grav is amazing.

Las Cannons are better on other platforms though. I would much rather take a predator or a dreadnaught than a devastator squad. The ML is ok but Flak missiles are over costed. The main problem is that everything they do is done better by another unit

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Las Cannons are better on other platforms though. I would much rather take a predator or a dreadnaught than a devastator squad. The ML is ok but Flak missiles are over costed. The main problem is that everything they do is done better by another unit

That makes them bad.


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 mathaius90 wrote:
That's weird, because I have yet to see one scatterbike, we have fun without cheesy lists where every unit can have a role. Heck, the resident chaos player uses warp talons and a land raider and has a good chance of winning. Because we set ourselves some limit on units, since we acknowledged the existence of interpersonal relationships and agreed to have fun together, not one at a time.

Surely we must be getting something wrong then.

But you're right and everybody's wrong, ok.
_____

Maybe you should kit the devastators to complement the rest of your army, but they really shine in the AV compartment.

"

Just because you guys aren't playing with good lists doesn't make bad units good.

No but doesn't make everything scatterlaser either.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Las Cannons are better on other platforms though. I would much rather take a predator or a dreadnaught than a devastator squad.

Predators Annihilators and Devastator Squads with Lascanons are similar in efficiency. Devastators cost 7% more for 20% more firepower, and can easily take advantage of 4+ cover saves. Predators have better mobility, as well as immunity to S6 weapons if you can point the hull in the right direction.

Power-level wise, neither is a top-tier choice. There's a reason Grav Cents and Thunderfire Cannons overshadow them in competitive play.

I prefer the pred since i play mechanized marines. More tanks means target saturation. My HS is usually two auto cannon las cannon preds, a stalker, and a TFC

I see no reason to take weapons other than MM, PC, or Grav.. in that order of being worth taking.

Multi Melta are nasty against vehicles and are cheap. Yeah, they are short ranged, but it keeps vehicles out of a bubble of the map. They keep the unit very cheap and pose as a great Distraction Carnifex type of unit.

Plasma Cannons because they are also fairly cheap, and give you an AP2 BLAST, which again may not be the most devastating thing, but cause your opponent to think twice about placing models.

Grav are cool, but far too expensive on Devastators. leave Grav to Bikers and centurions where it is much better. (again, maybe cool in the skyhammer, but too expensive)

ML kinda suck at everything
HB are ok, but not needed by most marine armies (in devs that is)
LC is too expensive for something that MM do better. Yes, they have the range, but MM have the killing power. If LC were AP1, they would be killer.

Lascannons and MM are in a totally difference class of area denial - one denies a 12" bubble, the other denies almost everything on the table within LOS.

My favorite devestator composistion was a rework hybriding of bethovens fifth, and the March of the Valkyries.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Lascannons and MM are in a totally difference class of area denial - one denies a 12" bubble, the other denies almost everything on the table within LOS.

Technically, the bubble is 24" for 2d6 range and 48" for being able to hit something. On a 4x6 board, and assuming you can deploy usually 12" into that 4' area means you can deny a significant portion of the board properly deployed MMs.

 Green is Best! wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Lascannons and MM are in a totally difference class of area denial - one denies a 12" bubble, the other denies almost everything on the table within LOS.

Technically, the bubble is 24" for 2d6 range and 48" for being able to hit something. On a 4x6 board, and assuming you can deploy usually 12" into that 4' area means you can deny a significant portion of the board properly deployed MMs.

MM only has a max range of 24", so 12" of 2d6

I think one of you is talking RADIUS, the other DIAMETER.

Yeah. So, another way of thinking about it:

Lascannons can cover an area of 50 ft²
Multimeltas can cover an area of 12 ft² at their max range, and 3 ft² at melta range.

The difference overall board coverage is dramatic.

Although when you consider that the table is only 24 sq ft, the other argument is that lascannons are massive overkill, and that multimeltas will do fine as long as you get their positioning, and the positioning of the objectives, just right.

(Personally I am still marginally more likely to get lascannons if I can, but I think it's important to compare apples to apples!)

Lascannons also has the potential to hit something and be relatively safe of retaliation, multimeltas can be shot at by bolters the next turn.

But i think it's slightly harder to screw with LOS for multimeltas, since they are very central in the board.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Although when you consider that the table is only 24 sq ft, the other argument is that lascannons are massive overkill, and that multimeltas will do fine as long as you get their positioning, and the positioning of the objectives, just right.

(Personally I am still marginally more likely to get lascannons if I can, but I think it's important to compare apples to apples!)

Your devastators will almost always be set back fairly far from the center of the table, so coverage matters. And seeing as how Multimeltas only have an advantage in penetration power within that tiny 3 square foot bubble, the Lascanons will be able to successfully cause glances and penetrating hits against vehicles in a greater variety of situations. I would argue that in actual practice, Lascannons will cause quite a bit more damage than Multimeltas (even relative to the MM's lower price).

I'm not just bullshitting with mathhammer, my experience has been absolutely that Lascannons are a more generally useful choice, to the point where I even use them in my Vulkan Salamanders army to fill out the demicompany's mandatory devastator slot (since I hate using Grav Cents). There are just so many cases where my MM devastators would sit around for a turn doing nothing for lack of decent targets... whereas Lascannon devastators are rarely at loss for something to shoot at, or else are dramatically influencing the enemy's movement choices by forcing them to hid behind LOS blocking terrain.

Devastators are of questionable value anyhow; there's no sense in hampering a mediocre unit with poor equipment choices. Kit them up with Lascannons or Gravcannons, and actually kill stuff.

MMs go on attack bikes, not devastators.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Yeah. So, another way of thinking about it:

Lascannons can cover an area of 50 ft²
Multimeltas can cover an area of 12 ft² at their max range, and 3 ft² at melta range.

The difference overall board coverage is dramatic.

Right... all of that sounds good an all.....



But on a 4x6 table, and when deployment zones are only 24" from each other.......

Though MM are 1 less Str (meaning slightly less overall amount of glance/pen hits) it has better AP value, which means you have a better chance of destroying said vehicle with each pen. Becomes MUCH higher obviously when within 12".


If you are arguing this point and have never tried fielding a squad with 4 of them, do yourself a favor and try it. Yes, they are easier to kill than Lascannon devs since they will be more aggressively deployed, but they also cause the opponent to rethink deployment/movements since they know the range is shorter.

If I have 4 MM slightly offset to one side of the board, would you rather set your vehicles on that side, or the other? Its amazing what this unit can do to make the opponent make poor tactical decisions.

And 8 Melta Bombs of points cheaper. Seems like a good choice to me. But it all depends on your play style and what you prefer. This is just something from my experiences over decades of playing 40k.

I don't give a crap about your 4 MM. I can cripple the squad from outside 24" with spare heavy bolter fire. Your AP 1 is useless 83% of the time in the 12"-24" bracket against say a Baal pred anyway. Which will turn your dev squad into sushi.

Surely your MM devs are only 2 to a 5-man squad, and go in rhinos, as part of a Lion's Blade or Gladius, because you couldn't quite afford grav cannons? I don't think anyone is suggesting sticking an unprotected 5-man squad with 4 multimeltas in the middle of the board...

I think Grav/Multi Melta/Lascannons/Heavy Bolter could work in Skyhammer, using either Ultramarine Doc for the first two, or Imperial fists for the latter.

For regular Devs, two Grav cannons in a Rhino with White Scars seems a popular one or 4 Lascannons with Imperial Fists, sitting in the back.

Personally, i'm using Raptor Chapter tactics and with Lias Issodon granting infiltrate right, left and center, + Heavy 1 Rendering Boltguns, it kind of opens the field to multi meltas and grav cannons as you can get them within 24 inches without moving and not totally waste the bolters. Thus i'll be using a 10 man Dev squad with two Grav Cannons. But that is pretty specialised and out of the norm.

nareik wrote:
I think one of you is talking RADIUS, the other DIAMETER.

Bingo

So, getting back to the actual thread topic of devastator loadouts, I played a couple of games today with my Dark Angels, using the Lion's Blade Strike Force. My required devastator squad was kitted out as follows: 10 men, 2x Gravcannon w/Gravamp, 2x Lascannon, Rhino. I combat squadded them, putting the grav guys in the Rhino and keeping the lascannons in the backfield. It worked really well, as my opponent's Dreadknights melted to my grav cannons, and he had a hard time getting to my las guys. I lost both of the games we played, but that was more due to the maelstrom cards screwing me than me having a bad list. I am definitely running this loadout for my devs again, it worked very well.

Generally speaking with Dev squads:

1) Don't mix weapons, keep the squad focused
2) Take 1-2 red shirt marines to soak bullets
3) Don't take combi weapons unless you are a drop-podding grav unit, the average range of Devs is 48", combis are 24" at best, bad idea.

Weapons:

Lascannon: Tried and true Armour buster, TEQ eraser and MC killer. These will be shot of the board though.

Missile Launcher: Some say rubbish, some say awesome. It's a very versatile weapon and a way to get cheap S8 onto the field. (Small blast templates generally suck though). Oh and never, ever ever, buy Flakk missiles. Its one shot, not twin linked and rubbish. A dread with 2xTL Autocannons does a better job at shooting fliers.

Multi-Melta: Bad on a dev squad. Just plain bad.

Plasma Cannon: Small blasts are rubbish, fluffy for some, but still rubbish.

Heavy Bolter: You are space marines, you already have crap-loads of anti-infantry firepower, why would you take more (and the stock Predator with HB sponsons does it better, for cheaper)

Grav-Cannons: Flexible since you can move and shoot (deadly in a Drop Pod), useless against low armour infantry though.

Izural wrote:
Grav-Cannons: Flexible since you can move and shoot (deadly in a Drop Pod), useless against low armour infantry though.

Here's some fun mathhammer:

You'd think that Heavy Bolters would be a better choice against 4+ armor infantry, but they only cause ~10% wounds-per-point-spent compared to a devastator with a Gravcannon (the effect of the grav-amp is magnified). It's only when you get to 5+ armor infantry that the Heavy Bolter outperforms Grav Cannons in any meaningful way. And even then, the HB is dramatically outperformed by... regular bolters.

Hehe, this thread has veered off course a few times, but similarly more than a few times it has been brought back on course.

I do appreciate all suggestions and they have given me a lot to think about. I do wish I could field Grav-cents, but since DA can't, I can only do Devs. I'm aware that they are not particularly competitive, but I like them, they look cool, and I enjoy converting and painting them. Whether I win the match or not doesn't really matter as long as it's enjoyable. And I can imagine it could be enjoyable to see the look on my opponents face if I get lucky dice rolls while firing a full salvo of grav on his MC's.

Speaking of an all-grav squad, to me it sounds risky because it's so expensive to take four of them. You might want to pad the squad a little to soak up wounds, but then it would be even more risky.

I have the models for 4 ML, 3 Plas, 3 HB, 2 Las, 2 Grav, 2 Multimelta. Probably need to make more to be able to make full squads of a single weapon, although I guess I'll never field 4 HB or 4 MM, just doesn't seem like a good idea.

Zodfrey wrote:


I do appreciate all suggestions and they have given me a lot to think about. I do wish I could field Grav-cents, but since DA can't, I can only do Devs. I'm aware that they are not particularly competitive, but I like them, they look cool, and I enjoy converting and painting them. Whether I win the match or not doesn't really matter as long as it's enjoyable. And I can imagine it could be enjoyable to see the look on my opponents face if I get lucky dice rolls while firing a full salvo of grav on his MC's.

Just bring an allied detachment of C:SM with you. Tigurius, CCW Scouts, Pod and 3 gravcents is 495 points. Just paint them green and say that it's a smurf successor chapter that just looks conspicuously like Dark Angels.

I also like a cheap 'sky hammer formation' devastator unit with only 1 grav + 1 combi grav. with first turn relentless + devastator doctrine you still got 8 grav shots with reroll to hit (and 5 reroll to wound..)..

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

Just bring an allied detachment of C:SM with you. Tigurius, CCW Scouts, Pod and 3 gravcents is 495 points. Just paint them green and say that it's a smurf successor chapter that just looks conspicuously like Dark Angels.

That's a worthy thought indeed. Would mean though that I'd have to spend about a hundred quid. Anyway, Cents would be nice.

For now, I'll roll with either 2 Las + 2 ML, or 4 ML, and stick Grav Cannons into tactical squads with Grav Guns, and maybe even Combi-Grav if I have points to spare.

Sorry for necromancing this old thread, but what weapon loadouts are you guys running in your Devastator squads now in 8th?

And please don't say that you don't run Devastators! Never mind tournaments etc., the rule of cool says you gotta have some dedicated heavy weapons squads!!

2x Lascannon, 1x Missile Launcher, 1x Plasma Cannon, or some variation of the above. Signum means your plasma is immune to overheating (most of the time), cherub means first turn you can either put a dent in hordes, blow up a valuable vehicle, or lay some serious firepower into an elite infantry unit. I run as many ablative wounds as heavy weapons in the squad. I’ve been finding a squad with 4 lascannons and 8 wounds generally last longer for me than running predators ever has for me, and running 100% infantry lists means enemy AT is wasted plinking down 18 point intercessors instead of 180-200 point vehicles.

Zodfrey wrote:
Sorry for necromancing this old thread, but what weapon loadouts are you guys running in your Devastator squads now in 8th?

And please don't say that you don't run Devastators! Never mind tournaments etc., the rule of cool says you gotta have some dedicated heavy weapons squads!!

In the most recent list I built, I dropped my 2 Tac Squads with heavy bolters and just grabbed a Devastator squad with 2 heavy bolters. You don't need to max it out (and probably shouldn't, since you'd want some ablative wounds to keep your heavy guns in the fight) and you can just use it as a Tactical Squad that loses Objsec but gains more good dakka.

Honestly, I don't think anything besides Heavy Bolters and Lascannons are worth it. Storm Bolter should go on the sergeant, and always take the cherub. You can allocate a wound to it if you know a marine is going to die anyway, and if you're crazy you can even revive it with an Apothecary.

Thanks for the tips! I didn't realize you can allocate a wound to the floating diaper-baby, that's a worthy consideration.

Also good point about using 4 x las + ablative wounds in place of a Las Predator.

I like the suggestion about running non-maxed out weapon loads out as well in place of Tac squads. I must try that.

Zodfrey wrote:
Thanks for the tips! I didn't realize you can allocate a wound to the floating diaper-baby, that's a worthy consideration.

Also good point about using 4 x las + ablative wounds in place of a Las Predator.

I like the suggestion about running non-maxed out weapon loads out as well in place of Tac squads. I must try that.

I should also point out if you are gonna be that kinda guy about it, outside of Raven Guard and Salamanders Lascannon Devastators don't match up to Lascannon Predators, and while a Predator will die faster to things that can shoot it from far away (most anti-vehicle), Devastators will collapse from a stiff breeze - but usually people have to get in close to do that, so it's a trade off.

Mix and match, do some test battles, and figure out what works for you.

When I build my list I ask myself... am I doing all infantry, all tank, or a mix. The answer is usually all infantry so I use Devastators. I don't like all tank lists so that is not a concern for me, which means the only time I use vehicles is if I want to pull anti-tank weapon fire away from things like centurions, terminators, or Primaris guys (Read: just Primaris because the others are terrible). If I am doing that I will take Dreads over Preds. Mortis Dread is usually a better bet depending on your Chapter Tactic. The only time I use Preds now is if I am planning on using the stratagem for them.

That being said all of the Heavy Weapons have their place.

The most universal are the Heavy Bolter and Lascannon.

Missiles are great against flyers, or as a filler. For instance I use it when I have a balance of anti-tank (Lascannons) and anti-infantry (Heavy Bolters) and want to add more, but can't add an equal amount. This is a decent hybrid weapon that has the stratagem which can be good too.

Grav-cannons are actually still really good. The problem is their cost and range. They do more against tanks than a Lascannon on average but at half the range. They do more than a Heavy Bolter but at almost 3x the cost. They are a good Hybrid as well, but only if you have delivery. Strike from the Shadows, Lias, or a transport.

Plasma Cannons are great for 1 per squad if they are stationary because of the Signum, or if you run Dark Angels. Otherwise, I skip them.

Multi-meltas I think are the worst of the lot. They are only better than Lascannons in very limited circumstances and IMHO not enough so to warrant the lack of flexibility. If you use them only use them with Lias, Strike from the Shadows, or a transport.

Hope that helped. I run minimum 2 squads of Devs in every list, and one of my lists runs 5 of them. I do run 4 heavy weapons and a minimum of 4 ablative wounds (including the sergeant and cherub). Typically I just do full 10 man units though since that makes them pretty tough as RG in cover, and they need less babysitting against infantry deep striking on them.

I've just made a spearhead detachment containing 3 devastator squad's for my BA. 2 have 1 LC and 2 ML and a cherub, sarge just has a bolter and signum. This gives me flexibility because of the ML's and some dedicated anti-tank due to the LC's, signum and cherubs and a bit of redundancy due to having 2. The 3rd squad has 3 grav cannon's or heavy flamer's and a storm bolter on the sarge. They ideally move up in a rhino or pod or toddle along with something else usually a plasma tactical squad or 2 and aim for heavy infantry which I face a lot of. This is usually lead by a lieutenant for the re-roll on wound's. I swear by a red-shirt for the unit it just helps so much.

I don't agree on having the same weapon's in a squad necessarily, range definitely. A cherub is almost mandatory for non DA plasma cannon's and a unit with 1 of anything you may rely on I would suggest. Maybe if you're only having one squad then fair enough but that's an easy target that can get focused out quite quickly IMHO.

I love the idea of having 2 squad's of dev's in a pod. 4 with grav, 4 with multi-melta. It may cost a bomb but drop it in with a captain or a Dante and it's at least 2 big unit's in bit's.

I've been having fun peppering in a squad with 3 HB's, a ML, and a SB on the Sarge to utilize stratagems along side my 2 las dev squads. Tossing out 2d3 mortal wounds (3d3 once per game) for 2 CP in addition to some cheap anti-infantry has yet to feel wasteful.

With the rule of 3 in effect, I cannot see doing more than one squad this way.

If they're Dark Angels:

4 plasma cannons, armorium cherub.

Cast signum on one plasma cannon, use armorium cherub on the same model.

Cast Weapons of the Dark Age for an average 10 shots, 4 of them at BS2+, rerolling all 1's due to Chapter Tactic. Overcharge for 3 damage per shot if enemy doesn't have any hit modifiers.

Other squad should be 4 Lascannons or 4 Heavy Bolters.

These units should sit at back field while your captain does work with the forward elements.
Conversely, you could group them with Azrael for full rerolls and a 4+ invulnerable save bubble.

I've been using the 3xact same composition, Vortenger, and I love it. Often doesnt attract too mich fire if you manage range well, and adds some desperately needed MWs to my lists.

I like cheap devastators with HB. But the mortis dreadnought it costs almost the same with the same loadout. Who's best as cheap dakka?