I would love some full art/lore books inside Sigmaron and other places in the realms. It's hard to understand from that photo what that place would look like on the ground. It's got mountains, pyramids, flaming statues, seemingly you're able to walk on all sides of that place?? Crazy. The Old World burning in the middle looks hot.
It's unclear, or at least the information is not easily located, but the previous page has an image of Azyrheim which shows part of the red comet (or is that Mallus, the remains of the Old World?) and ring (along with the tiny planetoid with the star above it - I think that planetoid is Sigmarion, the celestial stronghold of Sigmar above which shines the High Star Sigendil). It mentions Azyrheim has mountains, so it would appear that it isn't the ring itself. It's possible that the ring is Sigmaron.
I legitimately can't make heads or tails out of it, and I have no idea what it going on in that picture.
My impression was Azyrheim is the city at the bottom of the celestial realm (I.e. actually built on land) and that Sigmaron was this space station floating around mallus, and sigmarion is? Erm yeah, its confusing. And even further out there are the slann flying around space in their empty space-temples dreaming of the skinks and sauruses. And beyond that is the star-drake hanging out, admiring the necklace Sigmar crafted for him (or wait is the necklace the mortal realms?)
The feeling I get from AoS, at least at this point in the fluff, is a bit of a fever dream. The explosion of the old world with all the winds of magic created some warp plane on the edge of a black hole or something, with realms popping up and things blinking in and out of reality and no one except maybe Sigmar/the gods really understanding what the heck is going on. I somewhat think all of the realms could be on the same planet, or all be the same planet, but for example you could be in the UK of Aqshy and take a realm gate and be in the UK of Ghur or whatever names they are. I think there's a picture somewhat like this in one of the campaign books, between metal and fire?
coldgaming wrote: I think there's a picture somewhat like this in one of the campaign books, between metal and fire?
I know the one you mean - that is a link by Realmgate.
I _think_ the Realms are each their own universe, with each having their own planets and moons. The real question may be whether they are infinite or not...
Does anyone have an idea what kind of scale Sigmaron is? Like, is it big enough for the different human cultures to each have their own kingdom like they did in the old world? Or are they all jumbled up together?
Well, it's surrounding Mallus which is the same size as the Earth... Or was until it got destroyed. Maybe that's just the molten core? Each spire looks like it could be the size of a skyscraper but then again those globes could be moon sized satellites.
In the beginning it says centuries have gone by and nations and civilizations began. So im assuming they live in the realm where they lived when the world was shattered
It is a magic realm of infinite extent, according to what I have gleaned from the fluff.
That would seem to fly in the face of it being a space station arced around the dead planet, but perhaps the other realms extend into alternate dimensions, like in "The Long Earth" by Terry Pratchet. If it was a space station of the form shown in the picture, gravity would draw it into the planet.
Anyway, it's magic and doesn't have to obey logic and rules of physical law. I think also the picture has to be regarded as an artistic interpretation or perhaps an allegory of the true state of affairs.
Only the Slann, in their orbiting battle stations, would be able to see the whole scene from a distance.
Tainted wrote: Does anyone have an idea what kind of scale Sigmaron is? Like, is it big enough for the different human cultures to each have their own kingdom like they did in the old world? Or are they all jumbled up together?
Tainted wrote: Does anyone have an idea what kind of scale Sigmaron is? Like, is it big enough for the different human cultures to each have their own kingdom like they did in the old world? Or are they all jumbled up together?
I assumed it was Ringworld scale?
I am not sure there's enough information on this yet, but I haven't read the AoS fluff in depth.
Matt, can you help us with this? *Signals the Mongoose*
I am not sure there's enough information on this yet, but I haven't read the AoS fluff in depth.
Matt, can you help us with this? *Signals the Mongoose*
Hey, what, pardon?
There hasn't been a great deal written on this, and I am not sure there will ever be detailed info on the place as a whole (as opposed to specific areas of it), in much the same way as Terra is never really explained in 40k.
There was an article in White Dwarf that suggested some of the structures were BIG. As in 40k big. But total size? I don't think we will ever know. Once things go beyond the tabletop, GW get pretty vague about specifics (rightly so, in my opinion, I have seen what quantifying everything does for a gaming setting). Even the sizes of ships in Battlefleet Gothic have been fairly loose, and there are models for those...
However, we can see that this places rings the core of a dead world. Not sure how literal we can take that to be, but if we assume the World That Was used to be the same size as the Earth (a reasonable assumption) and assume that it was geologically similar (looser assumption with Chaos and magic present) and assume that what we are looking at in the picture above is the actual solid inner core (assuming, again, that the World That Was went through a similar process of differentiation when it was created), then it is about 1.217 x 10^3 km in radius (sue me, currently doing a degree in Planetary Science ).
Ah, just remembered that this core is not iron and nickel but Sigmarite.
Yeah, that may change things.
We know iron exists in the World That Was (from what weapons and armour were made from), but we also can presume from decent anecdotal evidence that Sigmarite is a denser material, so iron would have risen upwards.
Okay, the magnetic field of the World That Was might be a bit weird.
Kilkrazy wrote: It is a magic realm of infinite extent, according to what I have gleaned from the fluff.
That would seem to fly in the face of it being a space station arced around the dead planet, but perhaps the other realms extend into alternate dimensions, like in "The Long Earth" by Terry Pratchet. If it was a space station of the form shown in the picture, gravity would draw it into the planet.
Anyway, it's magic and doesn't have to obey logic and rules of physical law. I think also the picture has to be regarded as an artistic interpretation or perhaps an allegory of the true state of affairs.
Only the Slann, in their orbiting battle stations, would be able to see the whole scene from a distance.
I think you're getting mixed up with Sigmaron and Azyr. Azyr is the celestial realm which is infinite, and Sigmaron is merely a place in the Azyr realm where things like Stormcast are forged. This might be an artistic impression as you say, though. Because it begs the question of how it was built and how people travel from Sigmaron to Azyrheim (or if that is even possible).
That is, for me, the Big Question: Are the Mortal Realms infinite?
I think it is probably more useful to talk about 'accessible' Realms, because all sorts of issues start cropping up with infinite space (I mentioned in another thread that, if this were the case then, somewhere, a pre-End Times World That Was exists).
To keep things sensible, it might be better to talk about a specific area of the Realms, such as a planet (though we have already seen that at least one area of the Realm of Metal does not work that way), continent or (as in the Realm of Fire) peninsula.
It just makes things manageable without closing off other avenues for the future.
The white dwarfs for the Seraphon mentioned that every realm has its own starry sky, so in that respect they are all infinite because space is.
If the land mass is infinite I don't know. Don't the realms bleed into eachother in places? Or maybe it's like minecraft in that it's finite, but when someone reaches the edge it expands, and that expansion can be infinite...
Yes, Azyrheim is quite huge. I remember seeing an artwork of one "city door" and it was titan size. Like, titan in 40k. There are a lot of similarities with 40k "excessiveness".
That's still the core of the World That Was, and yeah it's the only source of Sigmarite. Fluff says it's becoming thinner as Sigmar uses even more Sigmarite to "forge" his Stormcast Eternals and their weapons.
So that may be the weakness of Sigmar's armies; seems like once there is no Sigmarite left, he will not be able to (re)forge any warrior again.
That is, for me, the Big Question: Are the Mortal Realms infinite?
I think it is probably more useful to talk about 'accessible' Realms, because all sorts of issues start cropping up with infinite space (I mentioned in another thread that, if this were the case then, somewhere, a pre-End Times World That Was exists).
To keep things sensible, it might be better to talk about a specific area of the Realms, such as a planet (though we have already seen that at least one area of the Realm of Metal does not work that way), continent or (as in the Realm of Fire) peninsula.
It just makes things manageable without closing off other avenues for the future.
I perfectly understand this, and it's better for narrative campaign purposes (the campaign for the X peninsula or the Y citadel in Azyr) so that some degree of sanity can be maintained.
The thing is, however, if the true goal of Chaos/Sigmar/etc is to conquer X or Y realm - and let's just keep it at one realm for now - and said realm is infinite... well that isn't gonna ever happen, now is it? How do you conquer something that is infinite?
The metaplot implications of a possible infinity are... very frightening as it can reduce any engagement, no matter the size (it could involve millions of combatants, or billions!) to nothing more than petty squabbles since nothing can ever be truly gained.
Yes, Azyrheim is quite huge. I remember seeing an artwork of one "city door" and it was titan size. Like, titan in 40k. There are a lot of similarities with 40k "excessiveness".
That's still the core of the World That Was, and yeah it's the only source of Sigmarite. Fluff says it's becoming thinner as Sigmar uses even more Sigmarite to "forge" his Stormcast Eternals and their weapons.
So that may be the weakness of Sigmar's armies; seems like once there is no Sigmarite left, he will not be able to (re)forge any warrior again.
We don't know much more about it, though.
That Sigmarite shortage thing sounds pretty much the AoS Astartes gene-seed issue equivalent, so you can conveniently wave it away as in 40k no really profound implication has ever come from such shortage in 10,000 years.
Bottle wrote: so in that respect they are all infinite because space is.
That is an unproven assumption
Bottle wrote: If the land mass is infinite I don't know. Don't the realms bleed into eachother in places?
We haven't seen that yet, I don't think, though there are clearly links (not that people like Chaos, the Seraphon and small numbers of Stormcast need them).
That's still the core of the World That Was, and yeah it's the only source of Sigmarite. Fluff says it's becoming thinner as Sigmar uses even more Sigmarite to "forge" his Stormcast Eternals and their weapons.
So that may be the weakness of Sigmar's armies; seems like once there is no Sigmarite left, he will not be able to (re)forge any warrior again.
Not sure that is a factor.
If the core is comparable to Earth's, with a radius of 1.217 x 10^3 km and it is all/mostly composed of Sigmarite, then there is 5.097 x 10^3 km^3 of it - if that were iron, that would be equivalent to about 40 million trillion tons (someone can check my powers, I normally miss one off somewhere ).
I don't think Sigmar is going to run out of Sigmarite any time soon
Don't forget we don't know the time Sigmar spent to forge his armies. And we also don't know how many "chapters" were made. Since it's similar to some kind of mythology, it may be thousand of years. Fluff says the core was way bigger at the beginning and it was quite clear it will not last forever.
Since it's all about magic and myths, with a lot of symbolism, I think we can throw comparisons with real planets and space out of the window for Age of Sigmar.
About other realms "bleeding" over others, it's difficult to answer. Since there are portals linking them, it may be very possible the energy of the other realm can have an effect on its immediate surroundings - in quite a small scale, certainly.
What we know is that Chaos can easily corrupt the realms it is invading. May we assume it's actually the power of Chaos Realms melting into them, making a twisted reflection of what it was? Hmmmm.
Since it's all about magic and myths, with a lot of symbolism, I think we can throw comparisons with real planets and space out of the window for Age of Sigmar.
Sarouan wrote: Don't forget we don't know the time Sigmar spent to forge his armies. And we also don't know how many "chapters" were made. Since it's similar to some kind of mythology, it may be thousand of years. Fluff says the core was way bigger at the beginning and it was quite clear it will not last forever.
Since it's all about magic and myths, with a lot of symbolism, I think we can throw comparisons with real planets and space out of the window for Age of Sigmar.
About other realms "bleeding" over others, it's difficult to answer. Since there are portals linking them, it may be very possible the energy of the other realm can have an effect on its immediate surroundings - in quite a small scale, certainly.
What we know is that Chaos can easily corrupt the realms it is invading. May we assume it's actually the power of Chaos Realms melting into them, making a twisted reflection of what it was? Hmmmm.
Presumably it's about 2,000 years because he started about the time that Chaos blew up Earth and began his "Take back the Mortal Realms" campaign 2,000 years later.
But I have to say I am completely confused about the set up.
Azyr is a magic realm in an sort of alternate reality, or side-band of reality? Sigmaron is inside Azyr, is it? Where are the Mortal Realms? If Azyr is infinite, why does anyone need to fight about it?
What is this chaos emblem shaped space station surrounding the exploded Earth's core? Where are the Slann's orbital battle stations? Is there a sun or does the physical space station-planet system float in free space, and if so, where does light and heat come from?
Isn't it a bit funny that something like this is not nailed down yet in the fluff? Seems kinda important to nail down the visuals. This is all the foundation of the game universe. Literally.
AegisGrimm wrote: Isn't it a bit funny that something like this is not nailed down yet in the fluff? Seems kinda important to nail down the visuals. This is all the foundation of the game universe. Literally.
All the fluff is hearsay and propaganda. Wait... wrong epic fantasy universe.
What is this chaos emblem shaped space station surrounding the exploded Earth's core?
To be honest, I didn't think "it's a Chaos symbol!" when I saw for the first time the picture for Azyrheim. To me, it was just some kind of "space city" all around something that looked like a very small sun not very active.
Yeah, may look like one if you look at it from "above", but to me it's more like seeing shapes of known objects/persons in clouds.
There are still questions left unanswered. GW loves that kind of thing that may or may be not described in future books.
But to me, it's a "mythological - High Fantasy" setting. A lot of things seem impossible or excessive, but that's the point. That has nothing to do with SF, because nothing can be explained with "science". It's magical, and that's all you need to know.
The "infinite" or "vast" part, I believe it's to have some place for our own stories. So, it doesn't really bother me on that part - you can imagine your own factions or your own towns in these wide realms. And you can, of course, play your own campaigns. Sure, you can still follow the official ones, but I believe the strenght of GW games is still that you can make your own army if you want, with their own characters and their own story.
When there are "holes" in the fluff, that's something you can fill with your own imagination. That's the strenght of "loose" fluff, IMHO. That's something I can see in other games as well.
Of course, more fluff is always good to read if it brings something new. But yeah, since I feel AoS is more a "reboot" than a true "continuation" of the old WFB, given its relative youth, I believe there is still time.
I _think_ the Realms are each their own universe, with each having their own planets and moons. The real question may be whether they are infinite or not...
I was pretty sure that one of the early books mentioned that you could see Sigendil or sigmarendil (or whatever they call that star) which is in Azyr in she sky of one of the other realms, which implies that they occupy somewhat the same physical space, and are just far apart. (and therefore not infinite). Or there could be some weird dimension-y stuff going on.
But Bottle wrote:
the white dwarfs for the Seraphon mentioned that every realm has its own starry sky
which means that they are partially contradicting themselves.
I just reread the entire Seraphon white dwarf, and couldn't find mention of the different starscapes... So just like the Saurus warriors it might have been just a figment of my imagination...
For me, it's simple: the Mortal Realms all exist on the same plane but are different planets in a universe that can only be crossed by Slann space ships or through magical means (such as the Realmgates and Sigmar's First Storm that brought the Stormcast Eternals to Aqshy in "The Gates of Azyr" book). The Realmgates were open during the Age of Myth, and Chaos spread freely from its Realm (planet) to the others (except for Azyr, which was sealed by Sigmar). The universe wherein all nine Mortal Realms (planets) are located could be infinite, but it has no bearing on the setting because other planets do not have Realmgates.
Now, I think it's possible that, in the distant, distant future, we could see a new "tenth" Realm appear. Maybe the Slann will discover a habitable planet with its own life forms and build a Realmgate there so that it can be accessed from the other nine Realms (planets). But for now, we are stuck with only nine named Mortal Realms, in addition to the Realms we come up with for our own games.
As far as the Empire living in a space station? I honestly think the Empire and Bretonians died with the old Warhammer setting. Along with Elves and Dwarves and all of the other old factions that were given AoS rules, if they return to the official lore, they'll return as all-new factions not to be compared with their 8th Edition counterparts. They were able to pull of the Seraphon as being "remembered" back to life by the Slann, but I doubt they'll be able to do something similar for every one of the old factions.
Granted, I've only read the Age of Sigmar primer that comes in the starter box and about half of The Gates of Azyr. So there's probably a lot I don't know yet about this game setting haha.
Las wrote: God this is the worst setting ever. This is like dust bin trash fantasy paperback level.
I can't help but wonder if I could go down to my used book store, grab 3 random books I've never heard of off the fantasy shelf, and get three much better fleshed out settings than AoS. Not saying better settings, but I think I could get 3 better established, more 'living' and fleshed out settings.
To be fair, Age of Sigmar is a very new setting - the game is what? 6 months old? - and some areas need to be left vague enough for creative teams and writers to work with later on.
You can't honestly expect to get a world as developed as, say, the old Warhammer setting, which had - what? 30+ years of fluff to go with it? Age of Sigmar is a new game, and for me, that's part of what has me excited about this setting. I get to be here and follow the development of this world from the very beginning and see where it goes.
Lots of games like AoS "should" have rulebooks that should include a good number of pages on the world setting, and then a good handful of pages for each individual faction in the game, with the goal that even the newest novice player gains a connection to the setting as a whole.
Otherwise you get a game where six months after release, players don't even know how or where very main parts of the game setting "world" work or where they even are in relation to each other.
The Stormcast is one of the main two factions in the game so far, and people don't even know the in's and outs of where in this setting they come from/are based out of?
AegisGrimm wrote: Lots of games like AoS "should" have rulebooks that should include a good number of pages on the world setting, and then a good handful of pages for each individual faction in the game, with the goal that even the newest novice player gains a connection to the setting as a whole.
Otherwise you get a game where six months after release, players don't even know how or where very main parts of the game setting "world" work or where they even are in relation to each other.
The Stormcast is one of the main two factions in the game so far, and people don't even know the in's and outs of where in this setting they come from/are based out of?
That's true, but then, for Age of Sigmar, these rulebooks aren't a required purchase to play the game. I think the information is out there though; it's just locked away in $74 USD hardcover rulebooks and digital short stories that none of us have bothered to buy and read lol.
Who are these people who don't know where the Stormcast Eternals come from? Do they play the game or are we talking about the AoS-bashers who get on forums like Dakka to complain about a game they don't even play and are willfully ignorant of the game setting? I'll grant there's some legitimate criticisms about holes in AoS fiction, but anyone who's picked up the starter box and read the primer inside knows that the Stormcast Eternals are heroes taken from the midst of battle in the Age of Chaos by Sigmar and reforged into his celestial warriors. They're based in Azyrheim, Sigmar's city in the the Realm of Azyr, and they're sent via Realmgate or Sigmar-storm to the other Realms to fight Chaos and avenge the fallen. There's more to it than that, but as it's summarized, I think we have a pretty adequate explanation of who the Stormcast Eternals are, where they come from and why they fight.
Atolyr wrote: To be fair, Age of Sigmar is a very new setting - the game is what? 6 months old? - and some areas need to be left vague enough for creative teams and writers to work with later on.
You can't honestly expect to get a world as developed as, say, the old Warhammer setting, which had - what? 30+ years of fluff to go with it? Age of Sigmar is a new game, and for me, that's part of what has me excited about this setting. I get to be here and follow the development of this world from the very beginning and see where it goes.
There is a very big difference between leaving room to fill things in later and the emptiness that is aos fluff.
There is no excuse imo for there not to have been a page of fluff overview for each faction avaliable in some format on release, just like every previous edition of Warhammer and 40k has had (actually I can't speak to the really old editions, but certainly at least within 'modern' GW).
Simple fact is that the KoW rulebook tells me more about the setting and the races in it than AoS does, and it is a game I have seen people in this sub commenting about, saying they did not know if there was fluff to go with it.
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Atolyr wrote: They're based in Azyrheim, Sigmar's city in the the Realm of Azyr,
Quick question, Azyrheim is that ring thing built around the core of thenold world in space yes?
jonolikespie wrote: There is a very big difference between leaving room to fill things in later and the emptiness that is aos fluff.
You're absolutely right. I'm relatively new to the hobby and the only other game I'm really familiar with is Warmachine/Hordes, and there is a BIG difference between the Warmachine fiction and the Age of Sigmar fiction. But I think it has to do with a difference in genre.
Warmachine - and, I would wager, most wargames and fantasy fiction - go for realism, which necessitates detail and characterization. They feature character-driven plots and the kind of gritty realness that makes it easy to imagine yourself in the setting. I think Age of Sigmar goes for a different approach. The setting is less "real," and more mythical. They have an obvious debt to Norse myth, for one. But the characters and the story are so epic in scale, so intentionally awe-inspiring, it actually feels remote - the way that mythology feels remote to us today. If you're looking for the usual trademarks of "good" background fiction - the character-driven plots and gritty realness - in Age of Sigmar, you're going to come up empty-handed and with the impression that the setting is underdeveloped. But if you approach from the mythological angle, I think you'll find the setting is very rich with the makings of epic battles and larger-than-life characters - which is perfect for a fantasy wargame like Age of Sigmar.
So there is an emptiness in the fluff, but I think it's an illusion caused by an expectation for something that Age of Sigmar just isn't going to deliver on.
Otherwise you get a game where six months after release, players don't even know how or where very main parts of the game setting "world" work or where they even are in relation to each other.
After 40 years of playing in the old world I still couldn't have told you where the factions were in relation to each other. The game itself never required that. You just slapped down your armies and played. My knowledge was roughly that there was a gunpowder/germanic empire that was invaded every year by chaos, there were some aztec lizard men on 'lustria' wherever that was, Undead were somewhere and presumably on the border of the empire, elves of various description I have no idea how they fit in nor where the dwarves were, skaven presumably come out the sewers and beastmen probably just live in the wild areas.
KOW is supposedly a good tourney game that WFB players have jumped ship to. Does it have a setting at all? (I really don't know having only played via the free rules). Do the tourney style players really care that much - the odd 'tourney player' I've known has never struck me as the sort who cares too much about that. I can tell you where Parthia was and where Gaul was and that still doesn't stop historical players having a battle between those two, so did it matter that they knew the fluff.
Obviously some people really want the whole setting etc, some just want a game they can enjoy, with some nice looking minis.
Despite what I said above, I do hope they develop the setting. Setting may not be that key for me, but it clearly helps get players involved. Plus I never read any of the black library stuff at all in the past (be it fantasy or 40k), but some of the talk about AOS did prompt me to go out and buy War Storm to get an idea of what people were banging on about. It was £45 for the AOS book or £15 for the novel, so I went the novel. It was hardly a literary winner, but it was good enough for getting some idea of what is going on. Its been a while since I bought new fiction and I can see myself buying the next couple of books for some light reading.
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Simple fact is that the KoW rulebook tells me more about the setting and the races in it than AoS does, and it is a game I have seen people in this sub commenting about, saying they did not know if there was fluff to go with it.
Otherwise you get a game where six months after release, players don't even know how or where very main parts of the game setting "world" work or where they even are in relation to each other.
After 40 years of playing in the old world I still couldn't have told you where the factions were in relation to each other. The game itself never required that. You just slapped down your armies and played. My knowledge was roughly that there was a gunpowder/germanic empire that was invaded every year by chaos, there were some aztec lizard men on 'lustria' wherever that was, Undead were somewhere and presumably on the border of the empire, elves of various description I have no idea how they fit in nor where the dwarves were, skaven presumably come out the sewers and beastmen probably just live in the wild areas.
Did you never look at the maps in the Army books? :-)
Automatically Appended Next Post: My first experience with wargaming was 2nd Edition 40k. There was a book in the set called Codex Imperalis which detailed the entire setting. This book enthralled me and basically made me the life long fan of GW games that I am, overnight.
My second experience was Necromunda. There was a book in the set called the 'sourcebook' which was a neat 50/50 split between the background setting and campaign rules. The expansion Outlanders followed a similar set up.
These books explained the entire universe to me for each game and most importantly they inspired me with ideas for my own stories and miniatures. Age of Sigmar is just too vague to do any of that, I only have loose ideas of what is possible and what is not, and when you're trying to make a narrative game with another person the setting is one of the most powerful tools at your disposal. It doesn't matter if the game has been out only 6 months, the setting should have been fleshed out on release.
Did you never look at the maps in the Army books? :-)
Not really, I don't even remember seeing any. I just pulled down the 2 army books next to me (moderately recent ones). The ogres has some map which basically is just mountains. VC has a better map of Sylvania, if I look at it I can see some empire sounding names which is probably why I was thinking they were near the empire - my sub conscious probably took that in when I was looking through it. I had a lizard man army book somewhere. I'm not sure what other army books I would have had over the years (There would have been another couple,but I never got them all by any means).
Back in 1st edition there were no army books, so I started with WFB not being a setting specific game (same with RPGs back then). That is possibly why I never really took in the setting even when I had army books on getting back into it later. Even with AoS the setting doesn't bother me, we will be playing with our old armies (or new armies in my case) but in a setting that we want. Fantasy wargames have always been like that with me - what is the game like and do minis look nice, after that then they are like RPGs of old where you just make your own imagi-nations, or simply ignore setting and just play games.
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,but I never got them all by any means
Actually on looking in the garage I had quite a few more than I thought. My memory is bad. I assume I bought them just to know what I was facing in games, rather than to absorb any background.
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My first experience with wargaming was 2nd Edition 40k. There was a book in the set called Codex Imperalis which detailed the entire setting. This book enthralled me and basically made me the life long fan of GW games that I am, overnight.
Interestingly 40k was a bit like that for me. After decades of not being bothered by the sci-fi looking game (because I was never into sci-fi minis games) I gave it a go whilst in a GW shop and bought the rule book just to have a gander. It was the setting that got me into that game (well to a certain extent). The whole future dark ages with technology that people don't understand and humanity descending into some religious personality cult, there being so many of us that whole regiments get sent to some planet and then forgotten about in some utter over the top bureaucracy just really grabbed me.
So the game I played I really didn't like the setting (gunpowder empire, annual chaos etc). Yet the setting I do really like I barely play. Odd eh!
If you're a fan of the elves/mortal humans/orcs/other armies not mentioned much yet, I definitely see how you'd have a problem with the setting so far. It's readily apparent those people were left in the lurch with this launch, and I'm not surprised a fair chunk of them were put off and not sure if they wanted to dive in.
As a general fan of the game, though, I do like the unfolding narrative style. I'm discovering the world along with everyone else, all the factions and armies at the same time.
I get most of my fluff/narrative/etc. from the models and war scrolls, to be honest. Those are what evoke my fluff bunny and daydreaming more than anything.
jonolikespie wrote: Quick question, Azyrheim is that ring thing built around the core of thenold world in space yes?
I am not certain but I believe that is Sigmaron, Sigmar's fortress that floats high above Azyrheim, where the Stormcast Eternals are garrisoned.
I think this perfectly sums up the problem, honestly. You say you've read the fluff, you're defending that it's not completely empty, but even you can't say for sure what that picture actually is of.
The fluff is so vague, the details so lacking that someone can't even look a picture of a giant space station circling the remains of a planet's core and say, "yes, that is this thing."
I don't know about you, but I would think that it wouldn't be that hard to distinguish it from other parts, when it's a freaking space station in a fantasy setting.
I know it can be hard sometimes to perfectly match art with descriptions, every artist has a different take and all that. But I've never had the problem of looking at the artwork in the older books and go, "that's a picture of Naggaroth, that's a picture of Nuln, that's a picture of Ulthan."
Each culture had rather distinctive architecture and each city had it's landmarks that would be given form by different artists without changing the whole thing.
As it stands right now, no one is sure if that's Azyrheim or Sigmaron, or even where exactly it's supposed to be. Is it really supposed to be a space station, for example.
GW hasn't left holes to fill in later, or spots for you to build your own thing, the old world had that. The edges of the map were fuzzy, there were plenty of areas of "don't go there, no one does" even in the center of the Empire. AoS has almost exactly the opposite, instead of giving you a map with uncertain edges and areas, they've instead given you a very few points on the map, and left the rest blank.
To make a rather weird analogy, the Old World was a coloring book. You could see what was going on, but you could make it your own.
AoS is connect the dots. They give you a hint of something, and leave the rest of the work up to you.
Atolyr wrote:Granted, I've only read the Age of Sigmar primer that comes in the starter box and about half of The Gates of Azyr. So there's probably a lot I don't know yet about this game setting haha.
Deadawake1347 wrote:I think this perfectly sums up the problem, honestly. You say you've read the fluff, you're defending that it's not completely empty, but even you can't say for sure what that picture actually is of. The fluff is so vague, the details so lacking that someone can't even look a picture of a giant space station circling the remains of a planet's core and say, "yes, that is this thing."
I don't know about you, but I would think that it wouldn't be that hard to distinguish it from other parts, when it's a freaking space station in a fantasy setting
As I said above, I've only read a small fraction of the available background for AoS. So maybe I'm not the best person to be answering questions about the setting haha. I apologize; I'm only going off of what I've read so far and there's still a lot I don't know. I do own the first few novels though and also found some scans of the rulebooks, so I'll be sure to read up on the background some more before I say anything further about the setting. This thread has definitely made me more interested in the fluff; I want to find answers to some of these questions and find out for myself just how developed this game world really is.
But I did find that image in my scan of the Age of Sigmar rulebook, and I can say with certainty that it is Sigmaron, or at least Sigmaron and the surrounding palaces built around the Broken World. To quote from the text on the same page as that image: "A ring was built round the Broken World; where sat the celestial palaces built of stone; high standing, the blocks so large only a Gighemoth could heft them. So did Sigmar's fastness grow...In Sigmaron, great stronghold of Sigmar, the palace of the Heavens; there shines Sigendil, the High Star; and dark Dharroth glooms there also. Loud ring the forges of the Six Smiths; great armies are built, awaiting only the call to battle."
It's right there, on the same page as the image. So as I said before, the information is definitely there; it's just in those expensive hardcover rulebooks that none of us are buying/reading
Atolyr wrote: To be fair, Age of Sigmar is a very new setting - the game is what? 6 months old? - and some areas need to be left vague enough for creative teams and writers to work with later on.
You can't honestly expect to get a world as developed as, say, the old Warhammer setting, which had - what? 30+ years of fluff to go with it? Age of Sigmar is a new game, and for me, that's part of what has me excited about this setting. I get to be here and follow the development of this world from the very beginning and see where it goes.
I don't see why not. GW supposedly have been working on AoS for over two years. (Personally I don't believe this theory.)
If true, it doesn't take two years to come up with a detailed in-depth fantasy setting if you have a design team of 100+ supplemented by freelancers including if you want, professional fantasy novelists.
Consider that AoS-Land is built on the wreckage of WHFB. All the old races and factions are still there, and the only new faction GW had to invent was the Sigmarines (who clearly are based on Space Marines and Valhalla.)
Apart from that, all GW have had to do is invent some silly names like Blood Secretor and Procurator, to enable them to TM the new units, and write a bit of generic stuff about Realms and "fair Sigmaron" so on.
I meant we're six months into the release schedule. Even if the setting is already fully developed, we're not going to be able to fully appreciate the depth of the game world until we're farther into the release schedule and have seen more of the campaign books, faction books, etc. So far, with the Realmgate Wars releases, all we're really seeing are Stormcast Eternals and their allies fighting Chaos. I think there's going to be more to Age of Sigmar than sigmarines and skulls. I think once we get past this initial story arc, as more factions crop up and the focus of the setting shifts and pans out, we'll see a game setting as rich and with as much depth as any other.
But then again, I'm new to Warhammer and haven't been let down by Games Workshop as I'm sure I will be at some point haha. So I guess I'm putting a lot of blind faith into GW, but I just think AoS has so much potential!
Atolyr wrote: To be fair, Age of Sigmar is a very new setting - the game is what? 6 months old? - and some areas need to be left vague enough for creative teams and writers to work with later on.
You can't honestly expect to get a world as developed as, say, the old Warhammer setting, which had - what? 30+ years of fluff to go with it? Age of Sigmar is a new game, and for me, that's part of what has me excited about this setting. I get to be here and follow the development of this world from the very beginning and see where it goes.
Bad excuse. Presumably AoS would've had to be in development for AT LEAST a year. It's a lazy, horridly underdeveloped setting. It's a writing room meeting idea that never got past the brain storming stage. Tons of other brand new settings (video game, TT or otherwise) manage to put out good settings on similar timetables. They may not be as rich as a 30+ year old IP, but they at least show effort and promise.
Drip feeding your customers information about your setting is not a smart move, you need to get them the basics ASAP so that they can know what's going on and be drawn into your setting.
AoS would have been worked on for a while behind the scenes, presumably at least a year given the End Times and the lead up to that.
If not, and it was rushed to save a dying game, then they released it before it was ready.
Any way you slice it I find it a bad move and am bewildered as to why GW let it happen.
People easily understood the basics of the Olde World because it was a fantasy version of early Renaissance Earth.
Trying to look at the Azyr setting objectively, it may be a clever long-term project to develop a completely original high fantasy setting over a period of years, but it is indistinguishable from a rushed out sketch intended to justify renaming everything to put a TM on the end.
For example, it's difficult to understand why there aren't more novels available that would flesh out the setting for players and provide ongoing income for GW separate to model releases.
Kilkrazy wrote: For example, it's difficult to understand why there aren't more novels available that would flesh out the setting for players and provide ongoing income for GW separate to model releases.
According to the BL website, currently 5 novels and 14 quickreads.
That's roughly 3 publications a month since release, alongside 2 big books and soon to be 4 Battletomes.
jonolikespie wrote: Seriously, it's short stories and ebook crap like that which has killed so much interest in BL books and turned the N&R thread into a wasteland.
This.
I lost pretty much all my interest in the Horus Heresy stuff once they cranked up the damned ebook and short story milking machine.
Fair enough, but the stuff is still there. Otherwise, it's like me claiming that I don't think the Wheel of Time universe is very well realised because I haven't bought any of the books.
RoperPG wrote: Fair enough, but the stuff is still there. Otherwise, it's like me claiming that I don't think the Wheel of Time universe is very well realised because I haven't bought any of the books.
Soo... where is the Dwarf, Orc and Elf fluff is all those moneygrabs... errr I mean fine pieces of fiction
I kinda feel like AoS is between a rock and a hard place. If you look at it as the sequel to WHFB you start asking where the other races are and it feels empty and poorly thought out.
If you look at it as it's own game, you ignore the elves, dwarves, etc, but then the whole setting is 8 infinite realms that are basically entirely owned by chaos and the sigmarines are now fighting them. With so few factions it feels empty and poorly thought out.
RoperPG wrote: Fair enough, but the stuff is still there. Otherwise, it's like me claiming that I don't think the Wheel of Time universe is very well realised because I haven't bought any of the books.
It's there except it isn't. You can't lay the foundations of a massive new Fantasy universe with short stories. I would have expected at least one massive trilogy available at launch, and a novel a month to follow up, featuring different factions and giving a wide view of the situation.
No, the foundations are there.
Even in WFB the majority of the BL releases were 'historical' rather than contemporary.
It's obvious that AoS is running on a contemporary style of publication - current events with the equivalent of flashbacks to cover previous relevant details and events, with the narrative focus on whatever forces are in the limelight at that point.
Yes, it's very likely a large part of this is to drive interest in sales of whatever's new.
But given the basic difference between the settings of AoS and WFB - everything to play for vs. almost perpetual 2 minutes to midnight - you can't publish in the same way.
Fully appreciate that we don't know exactly how former High Elves store their crockery on Sundays, but what are people expecting, exactly? A battle setting or an RPG setting?
All comparisons I've seen have started with WFB as the baselines, a setting that had 3 decades of perpetual development to furnish the details.
AoS is a continuation of that, but as people are also always keen to point out - it's gone, blown up, dead. The fog of War is everywhere.
I'm waiting for the releases in Jan/Feb to see how GW handle an actual society of people. But at this point I'm hopeful.
RoperPG wrote: Yes, it's very likely a large part of this is to drive interest in sales of whatever's new.
How can you say this and then defend that the foundations for the entire setting are there?
RoperPG wrote: But given the basic difference between the settings of AoS and WFB - everything to play for vs. almost perpetual 2 minutes to midnight - you can't publish in the same way.
Yes, yes you can. You can release a first book (or trilogy, as mentioned) explaining the general (that is: all the factions) mythos - bridging the background with the exploded rock that was before - and then go from there.
Think Silmarillion. How hard would it be for GW to do something like that?
Answer: not at all.
RoperPG wrote: Fully appreciate that we don't know exactly how former High Elves store their crockery on Sundays, but what are people expecting, exactly? A battle setting or an RPG setting?
"Truly! Damn those customers who actually want to know something about their faction. How dare they not want to buy the books and miniatures we are cramming out for half a year that only cover a sixth of the entire faction list - they should be groveling with the battle setting (what the hell is this anyway?) awesomeness that we provide, even if it's got nothing to do with their factions! And especially those Bretonnia players, not even knowing if their faction has survived at all!"
RoperPG, 30 years ago GW was starting something from scratch - they didn't have 30 years of player/customer base to keep interested and to manage the expectations of. If you have players that play Humans, Orcs, Elves,Dwarves, Ogres... that have helped you become what you are, and want to keep them interested, focusing on two factions - one of them sparkly brand fething new - is not the way to do it.
Wanna guess what happens when a company doesn't keep their customers interested? Check the Yearly Reports.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:Soo... where is the Dwarf, Orc and Elf fluff is all those moneygrabs... errr I mean fine pieces of fiction
jonolikespie wrote:I kinda feel like AoS is between a rock and a hard place. If you look at it as the sequel to WHFB you start asking where the other races are and it feels empty and poorly thought out.
If you look at it as it's own game, you ignore the elves, dwarves, etc, but then the whole setting is 8 infinite realms that are basically entirely owned by chaos and the sigmarines are now fighting them. With so few factions it feels empty and poorly thought out.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:If you have players that play Humans, Orcs, Elves,Dwarves, Ogres... that have helped you become what you are, and want to keep them interested, focusing on two factions - one of them sparkly brand fething new - is not the way to do it.
Solid points here. The absence of aelves, duardin, orruks, etc. in the initial story arc leaves some of us with a lot of questions about those factions, which definitely isn't good for the game. The campaign book Quest for Ghal Maraz is listed as book #1 in what is assumed to be a series of campaign books, the Realmgate Wars. So Age of Sigmar is likely going to be featuring the Stormcast Eternals vs Chaos conflict for a while yet. I think GW assumed most of their new AoS players would buy the starter set, and would want to hear more about the Stormcast Eternals and Khorne Bloodbound inside. And then they would slowly phase in other factions as time went on.
Whether this approach was the best for introducing their new setting is certainly debatable. I think for veteran players, it is entirely unsatisfactory; these players probably want to know where their WHFB armies fit in the new setting, and the fiction isn't answering their questions at all. But for players new to Warhammer, like myself, who picked up the starter box, I think it is adequate. I, for one, like hearing about the Stormcast Eternals and Khorne Bloodbound because those are the models I own, and I'm excited to see what comes next, to watch the setting unfold as new factions are phased in and tangent storylines developed. But if you don't care about either of these first two factions, this setting as we've seen it so far, is going to be dead to you. Simple as that.
In my opinion the setting should be at least half way between where it is now and what you would consider an "RPG setting".
I'm reading the Ritual Battleplan and one of the ideas is to stop a Nurgle cult unleashing a plague on a city.
What cities? Do they mean Azyrheim because my impression is that is the only city in all the realms. Nothing in the setting has suggested otherwise (discounting BL books which I don't read - a game should cover the setting in source books).
When I've got no idea if the stakes of a battle are even possible (why defend a city if there are none?), the setting is too vague. Too vague for a narrative game.
Bottle wrote: I'm reading the Ritual Battleplan and one of the ideas is to stop a Nurgle cult unleashing a plague on a city.
What cities? Do they mean Azyrheim because my impression is that is the only city in all the realms. Nothing in the setting has suggested otherwise (discounting BL books which I don't read - a game should cover the setting in source books).
When I've got no idea if the stakes of a battle are even possible (why defend a city if there are none?), the setting is too vague. Too vague for a narrative game.
It's just one idea for a scenario; at most, it's a minor inconsistency and I wouldn't let it ruin the whole setting for me. If the defend-the-city idea doesn't work for you, use one of the other ideas.
Anyway, Azyrheim is the last of the "great" cities, untarnished by the Age of Chaos. In my mind, other cities still exist - even some of the great cities of the Age of Myth - but they're hollow, ruined visions of their former glory. Remember, at the start of the Age of Sigmar, the dominion of Chaos is "almost" complete. There can still be pockets of civilization in the realms and free people fighting to survive. I think we haven't heard much of those civilizations because they aren't important yet to the greater story of Sigmar's war against the forces of Chaos, but as the Stormcast Eternals continue to liberate the realms, we'll see more of the culture and civilization of the people they're avenging.
@Lithlandis - I've seen more than enough in my local area to indicate that your view is by no means universal.
YOU want this stuff. That's fine.
Others don't need / want it to be able to play or enjoy the drip feed approach.
I'm not saying the approach GW has taken is 'right' but I can see the logic of it.
It all boils down to the fact that GW's opinion on that is the one that matters, because it's their schedule and planning. You can either accept/put up with it, or drop out completely. Again, your choice.
The foundations *are* there. What's missing is the wiring, plumbing and plasterwork.
RoperPG wrote: @Lithlandis - I've seen more than enough in my local area to indicate that your view is by no means universal.
YOU want this stuff. That's fine.
Others don't need / want it to be able to play or enjoy the drip feed approach.
And I've seen more in my local area and elsewhere to indicate that yours is the same - see how I can do it too?
Yes, yes you can. You can release a first book (or trilogy, as mentioned) explaining the general (that is: all the factions) mythos - bridging the background with the exploded rock that was before - and then go from there.
Think Silmarillion. How hard would it be for GW to do something like that?
Mmm - the first book of a trilogy, using an example of something that was posthumously published after the books it was describing the mythos for.
Maybe that is what GW are in fact doing. Do the 'now' stuff then later release the 'first' book, just like the Silmarillion.
Bottle wrote: I'm reading the Ritual Battleplan and one of the ideas is to stop a Nurgle cult unleashing a plague on a city.
What cities? Do they mean Azyrheim because my impression is that is the only city in all the realms. Nothing in the setting has suggested otherwise (discounting BL books which I don't read - a game should cover the setting in source books).
When I've got no idea if the stakes of a battle are even possible (why defend a city if there are none?), the setting is too vague. Too vague for a narrative game.
It's just one idea for a scenario; at most, it's a minor inconsistency and I wouldn't let it ruin the whole setting for me. If the defend-the-city idea doesn't work for you, use one of the other ideas.
Anyway, Azyrheim is the last of the "great" cities, untarnished by the Age of Chaos. In my mind, other cities still exist - even some of the great cities of the Age of Myth - but they're hollow, ruined visions of their former glory. Remember, at the start of the Age of Sigmar, the dominion of Chaos is "almost" complete. There can still be pockets of civilization in the realms and free people fighting to survive. I think we haven't heard much of those civilizations because they aren't important yet to the greater story of Sigmar's war against the forces of Chaos, but as the Stormcast Eternals continue to liberate the realms, we'll see more of the culture and civilization of the people they're avenging.
I want there to be cities. I want there to be towns, cities and villages all over the place. And if they are coming then - great! I can't wait! I can't wait so much that it's frustrating to have to wait! Haha. I am ready to love Age of Sigmar - see my plog - I've already put together an army and have plans for another 3 - just tell me about the mortals - the Aelves the Duardin and the little humans - put it all in a giant sourcebook and I would buy the limited edition.
There hasn't been much fluff on the mortal races because GW want the stormcast to be the big heroes of the setting. It's such a shame really, because I'd much rather hear about some heroic human character that I can relate to, and all we have at the minute are the stories of Sigmar's godly warriors from above. So far they haven't paid much attention to the setting itself, so I have no idea what they're all fighting over.
RoperPG wrote: @Lithlandis - I've seen more than enough in my local area to indicate that your view is by no means universal.
YOU want this stuff. That's fine.
Others don't need / want it to be able to play or enjoy the drip feed approach.
And I've seen more in my local area and elsewhere to indicate that yours is the same - see how I can do it too?
No. You made an empirical statement. You were expressing opinion as fact. I demonstrated it wasn't.
Sure, the WHFB setting is 30 years old. That also means GW should have 30 yeara of experience at writing a good setting. The amount of written material so far for AoS should be more than adequate for there not to be questions about where hugely important places in the game even exist.
AegisGrimm wrote: Sure, the WHFB setting is 30 years old. That also means GW should have 30 yeara of experience at writing a good setting. The amount of written material so far for AoS should be more than adequate for there not to be questions about where hugely important places in the game even exist.
Are we referring to the image on the first page of this thread? I thought it had already been said - that's Sigmaron, floating above Azyrheim in the Realm of Azyr.
AegisGrimm wrote: Sure, the WHFB setting is 30 years old. That also means GW should have 30 yeara of experience at writing a good setting. The amount of written material so far for AoS should be more than adequate for there not to be questions about where hugely important places in the game even exist.
It's not just experience here, it's volume of work.
After the last end times book, GW were in a position to publish an entire encyclopaedia on the Old World, running from macro timelines down to the general temperament of canine companions for rodent removal specialists...
There's essentially two 'anti' arguments for the AoS setting - one, it's too fantastical.
This is entirely legitimate. Some like that kind of thing, some don't. One of the more unique factors in the Old World setting was it's grittiness. It's now gone a bit discworld, with magic seemingly a requirement for its' existence, rather than an interesting diversion.
This won't change, so people who don't buy it now won't buy it later.
The second is that it isn't detailed enough, and this is the one that only time can fix.
Just looking at what was available in the last edition of WFB. The BRB was around half background. Each army.book similar. Plus you had novels covering each of the major players in detail, etc. etc. That's a /massive/ amount of typeface.
There are people who have background libraries running into the thousands of £, amassed over years. If GW had done the same for AoS, that would be great for some, but massively daunting for others - where do you even start?!
It would also be baiting IP issues - say they'd released a book detailing the history of the Duardin Steamheads and the Aelfs. Great. The book details a battle that features a Duardin Drakeguard vs. An Aelf Shadowknife. Without physical products with those names attached, there's no TM to defend and anyone could start producing stuff with those names - meaning GW facing possible legal action over something they invented.
It's not an approach I particularly agree with - but I can understand the logic for a company that has repeatedly had its' fingers burnt in IP/TM land.
Yes, yes you can. You can release a first book (or trilogy, as mentioned) explaining the general (that is: all the factions) mythos - bridging the background with the exploded rock that was before - and then go from there.
Think Silmarillion. How hard would it be for GW to do something like that?
Mmm - the first book of a trilogy, using an example of something that was posthumously published after the books it was describing the mythos for.
Maybe that is what GW are in fact doing. Do the 'now' stuff then later release the 'first' book, just like the Silmarillion.
Cute, but I used the Silmarillion as an example of the book's content, not its timing. If you wanna say opening a new brand with so much "fiction" (quickreads... pfff) pointing at just two directions while ignoring the other 10 or so i good well... feel free.
If you truly believe that was a good idea for supporting the setting as a whole - yeah, I kinda rest my case there.
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RoperPG wrote: There are people who have background libraries running into the thousands of £, amassed over years. If GW had done the same for AoS, that would be great for some, but massively daunting for others - where do you even start?!
You start just like you started with FB/40k - you pick up the book(s? nah, that'd be too much for GW, clearly) that details the general mythos (aka gives a moderate attention to ALL factions) and then one that goes in depth with the faction you chose to play with.
Taking into account the "bloody stormy" originality of the fluff released so far, GW could (conceivably but you can never tell with them) push out a consistent general mythos book followed by a single fluff book - it doesn't have to be overly long, just enough to flesh out what happened to the race you played in - to keep you hooked. It could even be something cheap for once (15£?).
A book for the heavenly stormy marines, one for the skully bloody chaoses, one for the celestial sunny seraphon, for the lighty highly elvies, for the grumpy angry dwarves, etc etc etc....
Chances are AoS would've had better fluff support and GW would have made more cash.
Actually, I'm not even sure how any of the mortal races are supposed to have survived the destruction of the Old World. The planet was reduced to its molten core, that sounds like a situation somewhat hostile to life.
Ok, if the Empire is centered on a space station now, I'd like to dub it the Death Star
But from the picture, that's a Ringworld.
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Crimson wrote: Actually, I'm not even sure how any of the mortal races are supposed to have survived the destruction of the Old World. The planet was reduced to its molten core, that sounds like a situation somewhat hostile to life.
Maybe if you jump at the right time, and miss the ground, you don't fall into the magma/lava?
What isn't clear is whether the realms existed prior to the death of the Old World. Sigmar was 'stranded' until the big dragon showed him the mortal realms (IIRC).
I don't think they did, and my impression is that the 'rift' split up the essence of the Old world into winds of magic in physical form, a bit like a prism refracting white light into separate colours.
So the realms winked into existence with versions of the races of the Old world in situ. The older gods/elementals being brought to the realms by Sigmar (or just turning up, in Chaos' case) provided the narrative history link to the past, which accounts - for example - how there are humans and Dwarfs living in Azyr who 'maintain the ways and traditions of the past'. They aren't the *same* people, but they've recovered their history.
But that's all just my theory that meets the existing facts.
The thing is, I don't really believe that GW knows the answers to the questions they've brought up. Here's an example from the past:
- When they decided to write a background for the Necrons, Andy Chambers said he was happy that not all of the loose ends were tied up in the fluff, and he could use this tiny mention about the C'tan and create a background for the Necrons around that.
That tells us two things.
- First lesson- GW's fluff writers had no qualms about creating mysteries without knowing their answers.
When they introduced the Necron race, they didn't have a plan for their fluff. The first wave of fluff was basically "Their story is shrouded in mystery." And Chambers admitted that they did not know the answers to the mysteries at the time.
- Second- they let their fluff writers run free with a philosophy that it is better to create lots of the loose ends, and just leave space for future fluff writers to fill in.
So, when we're introduced to a new setting that seems to be made of untied loose ends, I honestly don't feel like GW has it all planned out. Maybe their philosophy has changed, but it sure doesn't look like it to me.
I hope that doesn't mean the Empire or free people's are still nothing but a loose end. I originally made this thread because I thought the writers had made a mistake... Surely they meant Azyrheim rather than Sigmaron??
Bottle wrote: I'm reading the Ritual Battleplan and one of the ideas is to stop a Nurgle cult unleashing a plague on a city.
What cities? Do they mean Azyrheim because my impression is that is the only city in all the realms. Nothing in the setting has suggested otherwise (discounting BL books which I don't read - a game should cover the setting in source books).
When I've got no idea if the stakes of a battle are even possible (why defend a city if there are none?), the setting is too vague. Too vague for a narrative game.
It's just one idea for a scenario; at most, it's a minor inconsistency and I wouldn't let it ruin the whole setting for me. If the defend-the-city idea doesn't work for you, use one of the other ideas.
Anyway, Azyrheim is the last of the "great" cities, untarnished by the Age of Chaos. In my mind, other cities still exist - even some of the great cities of the Age of Myth - but they're hollow, ruined visions of their former glory. Remember, at the start of the Age of Sigmar, the dominion of Chaos is "almost" complete. There can still be pockets of civilization in the realms and free people fighting to survive. I think we haven't heard much of those civilizations because they aren't important yet to the greater story of Sigmar's war against the forces of Chaos, but as the Stormcast Eternals continue to liberate the realms, we'll see more of the culture and civilization of the people they're avenging.
I want there to be cities. I want there to be towns, cities and villages all over the place. And if they are coming then - great! I can't wait! I can't wait so much that it's frustrating to have to wait! Haha. I am ready to love Age of Sigmar - see my plog - I've already put together an army and have plans for another 3 - just tell me about the mortals - the Aelves the Duardin and the little humans - put it all in a giant sourcebook and I would buy the limited edition.
There are lots of towns, cities, villages etc, but unfortunately for you this stuff is mostly in the novels. Most of the featured ones are conquered by Chaos, some very recently, and they are usually described in general terms at least. There is an example in the most recent book of a small village on the outskirts of a conquered town, where the inhabitants (presumably being so insignificant that Chaos can't be bothered to kill them just yet) have taken to some sort of semi-Chaos worship, by donning masks made of scrap, pathetically trying to ape the horrific faces of their new masters. It had a Polynesian vibe to it which I found interesting. In another story a Nurgle warband comes across a fortress monastery in the middle of a forest, where survivors of Chaos attacks have gathered and built up a ramshackle town on and around the structure. These are all normal humans living in these places.
It sounds promising. As I don't read the novels (and don't plan to), I can only hope they begin putting this sort of background in the source books too.
I have high hopes for the Fyre slayer book. Let's hope it reveals the mortal side of the forces of Order at last.
Another interesting thing to consider is that the new chaos knights lore snippets mention that even mortal lords and kings fear them.
So amongst the vastness of the realms there is a strong possibility that some minor kingdoms remain untouched since chaos may have been too busy fighting amongst themselves.
i think it could make sense to have Empire and Bretonnia survivors living in Sigmaron (the "space station"). They are the remnants of warlike people, filled with desire of vengeance and retribution. And Sigmaron seems like the place of Azyr devoted to the preparation of war: the forges, the quarters of the Stormcast...
It's true that Duardin and Aelfs are said to inhabit Azyrheim, and they should be as warlike as these people or more. But I got the impression Azyrheim was the "civilian" city of the Realm.
I just imagine that the Warhammer setting is like Alara in Magic: The Gathering.
One world shattered into eight fragments. So Aqshy is the Old World as viewed through the Wind of Fire. Azyr is the Old World as viewed through the Wind of Heavens. Ulgu is the Old World as viewed through the Wind of Shadow.
So Malerion's realm in Ulgu is Athel Loren but shadowy and Alariel's ream in Ghyran is Athel Loren but vibrant . You could step into a Realmgate on one plane and step out of one on the other in approximately the same place but in another world. Then the All Points would be the actual ruins of the Old World.
So Ghyran might be the "Emerald Dream" (to use Warcraft) equivalent for the world, what it would be like if nature had been left alone. Whereas Chamon is metal infused (Mirrodin from MTG). Shyish is death infused (Innistrad from MTG.) The All Points could be a shattered "Outland" (again to use Warcraft) fragments of the World That Was held together in the void by gravity and magic.
So Azyrheim would be a massively sprawling rebuilt Altdorf as it would exist in the Realm of Heavens. Sigmaron can be Sigmar's city on the moon.
Col. Tartleton wrote: I just imagine that the Warhammer setting is like Alara in Magic: The Gathering.
One world shattered into eight fragments. So Aqshy is the Old World as viewed through the Wind of Fire. Azyr is the Old World as viewed through the Wind of Heavens. Ulgu is the Old World as viewed through the Wind of Shadow.
So Malerion's realm in Ulgu is Athel Loren but shadowy and Alariel's ream in Ghyran is Athel Loren but vibrant. You could step into a Realmgate on one plane and step out of one on the other in approximately the same place but in another world. Then the All Points would be the actual ruins of the Old World.
So Azyrheim would be a massively sprawling rebuilt Altdorf as it would exist in the Realm of Heavens. Sigmaron can be Sigmar's city on the moon.
So just to clarify;
The realm of Azyr is Sigmar's realm, and when Sigmar retreated into self imposed exile all the realmgates were closed, and it has been cleansed.
(Part of the Stormcast fluff is that prior to the attacks on the realm of fire, the Stormcast were tasked with wiping out anything with even a whiff of Chaos to it in Azyr).
It's big, contains a number of cities and towns and villages, as well as other terrain - Castellants have to wander in the wilderness of a specific mountain range as part of their initiation.
Broadly the poluace of Azyr is human, but there are remnants of all the mortal 'good' races living there.
Azyrheim is the 'capital' city of the realm of Azyr, and is vast, and Dwarfs, Elves and humans - the proper retro ones, able to trace direct lineage to the world that was - live alongside mortals from the realms.
There are entire *armies* of each race living and training within Azyrheim's walls, alongside families, merchants, etc...
Sigmaron is the crescent thingy around the remnants of the world-that-was, is Sigmar's palace and workshop, it's where the Stormcast get reforged, are barracked and trained. There are also communities of other races in parts of it too. So Sigmar and the Stormcasts live on a space station with a few friends.
(One of my earlier posts had an incorrect theory on where the mortal races cane from)
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