The first template is in base contact of the Stomper, while the following the possible templates are placed within so many inches of it. No restriction is made for the placement to be made on the unit the Stomper is Engaged with.
The first template is in base contact of the Stomper, while the following the possible templates are placed within so many inches of it. No restriction is made for the placement to be made on the unit the Stomper is Engaged with.
Well, can it position the templates to hit/kill units that aren't in combat with it?
The first template is in base contact of the Stomper, while the following the possible templates are placed within so many inches of it. No restriction is made for the placement to be made on the unit the Stomper is Engaged with.
Well, can it position the templates to hit/kill units that aren't in combat with it?
Yes, because there are no restrictions, just instructions on how to place each marker.
acme2468 wrote: Note however that most Tournaments rule you can't target units out of the combat.
I like when people say this, as if they've been involved in sufficiently large a number of totally-representative tournaments to be able to make such a claim.
The first template is in base contact of the Stomper, while the following the possible templates are placed within so many inches of it. No restriction is made for the placement to be made on the unit the Stomper is Engaged with.
Well, can it position the templates to hit/kill units that aren't in combat with it?
Yes, because there are no restrictions, just instructions on how to place each marker.
SJ
So, to clarify, if an IK is engaged with an infantry squad, I can't shoot it because I might hit the infantry models who don't even reach its knees. However, it is free to make melee attacks against unengaged models up to 15" away. There is no middle finger big enough.
vipoid wrote: So, to clarify, if an IK is engaged with an infantry squad, I can't shoot it because I might hit the infantry models who don't even reach its knees. However, it is free to make melee attacks against unengaged models up to 15" away. There is no middle finger big enough.
Stomp Attacks are not Melee Attacks. They are a special type of attack called Stomp Attacks.
col_impact wrote: Which wound allocation rules do we use to resolve Stomp attacks? The rules in the shooting phase or the rules in the fight sub-phase?
The Wound Allocation rules in the Stomp Attack. They state it right in there.
col_impact wrote: Which wound allocation rules do we use to resolve Stomp attacks? The rules in the shooting phase or the rules in the fight sub-phase?
The Wound Allocation rules in the Stomp Attack. They state it right in there.
I am not seeing any wound allocation rules in the Stomp rules. Can you quote what you are referring to?
col_impact wrote: Which wound allocation rules do we use to resolve Stomp attacks? The rules in the shooting phase or the rules in the fight sub-phase?
The Wound Allocation rules in the Stomp Attack. They state it right in there.
I am not seeing any wound allocation rules in the Stomp rules. Can you quote what you are referring to?
Look at the chart.
2-5
Non-vehicle Target - Kerr-runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.
6
Non-vehicle Target - Overrun: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker is removed as a casualty.
col_impact wrote: Which wound allocation rules do we use to resolve Stomp attacks? The rules in the shooting phase or the rules in the fight sub-phase?
The Wound Allocation rules in the Stomp Attack. They state it right in there.
I am not seeing any wound allocation rules in the Stomp rules. Can you quote what you are referring to?
Look at the chart.
2-5
Non-vehicle Target - Kerr-runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.
6
Non-vehicle Target - Overrun: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker is removed as a casualty.
acme2468 wrote: Note however that most Tournaments rule you can't target units out of the combat.
I like when people say this, as if they've been involved in sufficiently large a number of totally-representative tournaments to be able to make such a claim.
Most (there's that word again) tournaments tend to use a third-party FAQ of some kind to create consistency with other events being played in the community. There are a half dozen of these 3rd party FAQ's around.
Its entirely possible that some people play in a corner of the world that doesn't have the internet to find these FAQs, or is so isolated that they don't need to conform to what the wider community is doing, or are so stubborn that they want to run events their way regardless of what everyone else is doing... but I'd wager the tournaments those people play at are few and far between.
I'd wager that most tournaments in your area use this FAQ: https://www.facebook.com/Australian-New-Zealand-Warhammer-40000-FAQ-710773455688407/ . Which coincidentally DOES follow the RAW and allow you to hit models outside of combat (the AUSNZ-FAQ tends to be very literal in its rulings due to being combined with community comp most of the time).
col_impact wrote: Which wound allocation rules do we use to resolve Stomp attacks? The rules in the shooting phase or the rules in the fight sub-phase?
The Wound Allocation rules in the Stomp Attack. They state it right in there.
I am not seeing any wound allocation rules in the Stomp rules. Can you quote what you are referring to?
Look at the chart.
2-5
Non-vehicle Target - Kerr-runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.
6
Non-vehicle Target - Overrun: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker is removed as a casualty.
That's not a rule for allocating wounds.
Don't be snide, how would you term it?
If a unit is hit, Wounds are allocated based on criteria of the Attack. However, in this case, models are hit, and so any resultant Wounds would be allocated to them. The 2-5 result could be LOS!, of course, since it Wounds, but in the end it is just a way of reallocating Wounds.
Stomp Attacks are not Melee Attacks. They are a special type of attack called Stomp Attacks.
They are a type of attack that is only usable in melee and which involve the model physically attacking the models. Sorry but that is most definitely a melee attack.
Stomp Attacks are not Melee Attacks. They are a special type of attack called Stomp Attacks.
They are a type of attack that is only usable in melee and which involve the model physically attacking the models. Sorry but that is most definitely a melee attack.
Excep close combat attacks are well defined. This does not got that definition. So is not a close combat attack. Your opinion is noted
As defined by the game. Or do you think a "shooting attack" as defined by someone not playing 40k would involve the use of dice, a to-hit chart and the concept of an armour save?
nosferatu1001 wrote: As defined by the game. Or do you think a "shooting attack" as defined by someone not playing 40k would involve the use of dice, a to-hit chart and the concept of an armour save?
I think they'd define it as using a gun or other ranged weapon.
Stomp Attacks are not Melee Attacks. They are a special type of attack called Stomp Attacks.
They are a type of attack that is only usable in melee and which involve the model physically attacking the models. Sorry but that is most definitely a melee attack.
Timing and position are the only ways to define it. Indeed, aside from those factors, there is absolutely nothing to define them as Melee Attacks. They do not use the WS or A characteristics. They do not use Melee Attacks Wound Allocation. They can hit units that are not Engaged in the same combat. They can hit units Engaged in a completely different combat.
So, there is nothing to define them as Melee Attacks. This has been gone through before, and there was nothing found but timing and position to relate them to Melee Attacks, and there was nothing found that made those things the exclusive definition of Melee Attacks.
vipoid wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote: As defined by the game. Or do you think a "shooting attack" as defined by someone not playing 40k would involve the use of dice, a to-hit chart and the concept of an armour save?
I think they'd define it as using a gun or other ranged weapon.
And guns and ranged weapons in the rulebook are defined as providing Shooting Attacks in the Weapon section, while Weapons with the Melee Type are only used in Melee. We do have to use the rulebook definitions where they are provided.
col_impact wrote: Which wound allocation rules do we use to resolve Stomp attacks? The rules in the shooting phase or the rules in the fight sub-phase?
The Wound Allocation rules in the Stomp Attack. They state it right in there.
I am not seeing any wound allocation rules in the Stomp rules. Can you quote what you are referring to?
Look at the chart.
2-5
Non-vehicle Target - Kerr-runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.
6
Non-vehicle Target - Overrun: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker is removed as a casualty.
That's not a rule for allocating wounds.
Don't be snide, how would you term it?
If a unit is hit, Wounds are allocated based on criteria of the Attack. However, in this case, models are hit, and so any resultant Wounds would be allocated to them. The 2-5 result could be LOS!, of course, since it Wounds, but in the end it is just a way of reallocating Wounds.
So what you are saying is that Stomps have no rules for allocating wounds in the Stomp rules themselves.
However, the Fight Sub-phase rules govern wound allocation for Attacks at Initiative Steps. Is a Stomp Attack an Attack at a particular Initiative Step during the Fight Sub-phase?
col_impact wrote: Which wound allocation rules do we use to resolve Stomp attacks? The rules in the shooting phase or the rules in the fight sub-phase?
The Wound Allocation rules in the Stomp Attack. They state it right in there.
I am not seeing any wound allocation rules in the Stomp rules. Can you quote what you are referring to?
Look at the chart.
2-5
Non-vehicle Target - Kerr-runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.
6
Non-vehicle Target - Overrun: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker is removed as a casualty.
That's not a rule for allocating wounds.
Don't be snide, how would you term it?
If a unit is hit, Wounds are allocated based on criteria of the Attack. However, in this case, models are hit, and so any resultant Wounds would be allocated to them. The 2-5 result could be LOS!, of course, since it Wounds, but in the end it is just a way of reallocating Wounds.
So what you are saying is that Stomps have no rules for allocating wounds in the Stomp rules themselves.
However, the Fight Sub-phase rules govern wound allocation for Attacks at Initiative Steps. Is a Stomp Attack an Attack at a particular Initiative Step during the Fight Sub-phase?
What's this nonsense?
Stomp doesn't need wound allocation rules because it wounds models, not units.
However, the Fight Sub-phase rules govern wound allocation for Attacks at Initiative Steps. Is a Stomp Attack an Attack at a particular Initiative Step during the Fight Sub-phase?
I believe it happens at initiative step 1. I could be wrong.. but pretty sure.
However, as others have stated stomp attacks have their own specific rules which as discussed.. place blast... roll d6.. follow what the table says... It even makes sense "fluff" wise that if a Gargantuan walker is stomping around on the battlefield its probably gonna cause some collateral damage.
However, as others have stated stomp attacks have their own specific rules which as discussed.. place blast... roll d6.. follow what the table says... It even makes sense "fluff" wise that if a Gargantuan walker is stomping around on the battlefield its probably gonna cause some collateral damage.
What doesn't make sense, however, is that a gargantuan creature can stomp around without actually moving.
Similarly, it's rather annoying that you're not allowed to shoot said 3-story monstrosity, for fear of hitting the infantry it's currently scraping off its boots.
However, the Fight Sub-phase rules govern wound allocation for Attacks at Initiative Steps. Is a Stomp Attack an Attack at a particular Initiative Step during the Fight Sub-phase?
I believe it happens at initiative step 1. I could be wrong.. but pretty sure.
However, as others have stated stomp attacks have their own specific rules which as discussed.. place blast... roll d6.. follow what the table says... It even makes sense "fluff" wise that if a Gargantuan walker is stomping around on the battlefield its probably gonna cause some collateral damage.
The specific rules of Stomp only put hits on models, exactly like a Template does. However, templates have their wounds allocated in the Shooting Sequence.
Stomp is an Attack made while engaged in combat and executed at an Initiative Step and as such it follows the Fight Sub-phase rules. Those rules indicate that Attacks at Initiative steps have their wounds allocated. I can find no reason why Stomp Attacks would not have their wounds allocated per the Fight Sub-phase rules. The Stomp rules themselves state "Stomp attacks are resolved during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 1 step" and the Fight sub-phase contains rules for allocating wounds and applying saving throws. This brings up another issue. The Stomp rules themselves make no mention of what saving throws are allowed to be taken against a Stomp Attack. If we follow the Fight Sub-phase rules, models get armor, invul, but not cover saves.
vipoid wrote: Am I right in thinking models can still LoS stomp wounds?
Look out, Sir! requires the wounds to be allocated. I am trying to determine if Stomp Attacks wounds are allocated and if so by what rules. The Stomp rules themselves do not provide rules for allocating wounds, which is not surprising since Template rules do not provide wound allocation rules either - those are found in the Shooting Sequence. I see no reason why you would not use the wound allocation rules for the Fight Sub-phase since Stomp Attacks are Attacks executed at Initiative during the Fight Sub-phase and are resolved using those rules.
Do you see the word 'wound' anywhere in the Stomp rules? The models under the blast markers suffer a hit, just like the models under a Template do.
Yes but that's the issue right there. The MODEL suffers the hit, not the unit. Wound allocation rules only come into affect when the UNIT receives wounds. The best way to think about it is that if 4 models are stomped, it's not 1 wound pool against the unit. Its 4 separate wound pools, each specifically paired with the model stomped.
As for stomps being close comabt attacks. I think they definitely are, a close comabt attack is never even specifically defined in the rule book. The rules simply say "in close comabt, both players models fight.Attacks in close combat work like shooting..." It never specifically identifies close comabt attacks as anything other than an attack during the fight subphase, which a stomp is, even though its different and separate from normal attacks. It is still in the fight subphase and still at an initiative step. So it is a close combat attack, or an attack in close comabt which are the same things.
col_impact wrote:The specific rules of Stomp only put hits on models, exactly like a Template does. However, templates have their wounds allocated in the Shooting Sequence.
Stomp is an Attack made while engaged in combat and executed at an Initiative Step and as such it follows the Fight Sub-phase rules. Those rules indicate that Attacks at Initiative steps have their wounds allocated. I can find no reason why Stomp Attacks would not have their wounds allocated per the Fight Sub-phase rules. The Stomp rules themselves state "Stomp attacks are resolved during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 1 step" and the Fight sub-phase contains rules for allocating wounds and applying saving throws. This brings up another issue. The Stomp rules themselves make no mention of what saving throws are allowed to be taken against a Stomp Attack. If we follow the Fight Sub-phase rules, models get armor, invul, but not cover saves.
The stomp table does tho.. as someone posted. 1 dodge lucky break. 2-5 a s6 ap4 wound.. so you would get all your saves a 6 is remove as a casualty.. as this does not allocate a wound no saves are taken. its removed.
vipoid wrote:Am I right in thinking models can still LoS stomp wounds?
Could be wrong, gonna go out on a limb and say no because it says.. any models under or partially under the blast are effected by the table roll.
col_impact wrote:The specific rules of Stomp only put hits on models, exactly like a Template does. However, templates have their wounds allocated in the Shooting Sequence.
Stomp is an Attack made while engaged in combat and executed at an Initiative Step and as such it follows the Fight Sub-phase rules. Those rules indicate that Attacks at Initiative steps have their wounds allocated. I can find no reason why Stomp Attacks would not have their wounds allocated per the Fight Sub-phase rules. The Stomp rules themselves state "Stomp attacks are resolved during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 1 step" and the Fight sub-phase contains rules for allocating wounds and applying saving throws. This brings up another issue. The Stomp rules themselves make no mention of what saving throws are allowed to be taken against a Stomp Attack. If we follow the Fight Sub-phase rules, models get armor, invul, but not cover saves.
The stomp table does tho.. as someone posted. 1 dodge lucky break. 2-5 a s6 ap4 wound.. so you would get all your saves a 6 is remove as a casualty.. as this does not allocate a wound no saves are taken. its removed.
The Stomp table mentions "hit" and not "wound".
Spoiler:
2-5
Non-vehicle Target - Kerr-runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.
So the Stomp rules have no wound allocation in the Stomp rules themselves. However, I see no reason why the Fight Sub-phase wound allocation rules would not be in effect since the Stomp rules indicate Stomps are resolved using those rules.
Models are permitted to take saves against shooting attacks (armor, invul, cover) in the shooting phase and close combat attacks (armor and invul) in the Fight Sub-phase. Special attacks specify what kind of saves can be taken against them. Stomp attacks make no mention of what saves are applicable. If it's a close combat attack, then we know armor and invul saves can be taken.
2-5
Non-vehicle Target - Kerr-runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.
So the Stomp rules have no wound allocation in the Stomp rules themselves. However, I see no reason why the Fight Sub-phase wound allocation rules would not be in effect since the Stomp rules indicate Stomps are resolved using those rules.
Models are permitted to take saves against shooting attacks (armor, invul, cover) in the shooting phase and close combat attacks (armor and invul) in the Fight Sub-phase. Special attacks specify what kind of saves can be taken against them. Stomp attacks make no mention of what saves are applicable. If it's a close combat attack, then we know armor and invul saves can be taken.
Sorry, that doesn't fly, and Ignores everything stated in this rule, while putting your opinion in place of actual written rules
It is never stated to be a Melee Attack any more than a Shooting Attack. This allows the Attacks to hit Engaged models as well as models outside its Engagement.
The models take the hit, not the units, with Stomp Attacks. Review how Blast and Template USRs are written, they put Hits on units based on the number of models underneath. This is very different to Stomp's rules.
If the model takes the hit, process it as described, which is Str 6, AP4. T 3 models will be ID'd, and only 3+ or better Armour Saves are allowed, while Cover and Invulnerability Saves are unaffected. If Unsaved, the model loses a Wound.
The unit is not involved, so differentiating between models in the unit to allocate the Wounds to is beyond the scope of the instructions. As to LOS!, that is allowed in Assault and not limited to Melee, so as soon as the Str 6 makes a successful Wound, but before the Save attempt is made, the attempt to reallocate it can be made.
2-5
Non-vehicle Target - Kerr-runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.
So the Stomp rules have no wound allocation in the Stomp rules themselves. However, I see no reason why the Fight Sub-phase wound allocation rules would not be in effect since the Stomp rules indicate Stomps are resolved using those rules.
Models are permitted to take saves against shooting attacks (armor, invul, cover) in the shooting phase and close combat attacks (armor and invul) in the Fight Sub-phase. Special attacks specify what kind of saves can be taken against them. Stomp attacks make no mention of what saves are applicable. If it's a close combat attack, then we know armor and invul saves can be taken.
Sorry, that doesn't fly, and Ignores everything stated in this rule, while putting your opinion in place of actual written rules
It is never stated to be a Melee Attack any more than a Shooting Attack. This allows the Attacks to hit Engaged models as well as models outside its Engagement.
The models take the hit, not the units, with Stomp Attacks. Review how Blast and Template USRs are written, they put Hits on units based on the number of models underneath. This is very different to Stomp's rules.
If the model takes the hit, process it as described, which is Str 6, AP4. T 3 models will be ID'd, and only 3+ or better Armour Saves are allowed, while Cover and Invulnerability Saves are unaffected. If Unsaved, the model loses a Wound.
The unit is not involved, so differentiating between models in the unit to allocate the Wounds to is beyond the scope of the instructions. As to LOS!, that is allowed in Assault and not limited to Melee, so as soon as the Str 6 makes a successful Wound, but before the Save attempt is made, the attempt to reallocate it can be made.
I am not saying it's a Melee Attack and nowhere am I providing my opinion over rules. There just is no wound allocation in the Stomp rules themselves. Models take the hit and not the unit themselves with regards to Template attacks. Just consider a Template that overshoots and hits models that aren't in the target unit. A hit is generated on those models just the same. And the shooting rules allocate the wounds generated by Template hits.
I am asking if we use the Fight Sub-phase rules or not to resolve Stomp Attacks?
If we are not using the Fight Sub-phase rules then how does a Stomp Attack even resolve?
If we are using the Fight Sub-phase rules then Stomp Attacks would qualify for the wound allocation that happens at each Initiative Step in the Fight Sub-phase since they are Attacks that happen at a particular Initiative step.
col_impact wrote: Which wound allocation rules do we use to resolve Stomp attacks? The rules in the shooting phase or the rules in the fight sub-phase?
The Wound Allocation rules in the Stomp Attack. They state it right in there.
I am not seeing any wound allocation rules in the Stomp rules. Can you quote what you are referring to?
Look at the chart.
2-5
Non-vehicle Target - Kerr-runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.
6
Non-vehicle Target - Overrun: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker is removed as a casualty.
That's not a rule for allocating wounds.
Wound allocation is pretty simple - every model takes a str 6 ap4 hit on a 2-5. on a 1, there's no effect, and on a 6, all die.
So, of 6 boyz, 5 with shootas and one with a big shoota, and a nob get stomped, and it's a 2-5 result, each boy and the nob take a hit. Resolve special model's hits on their own (unique weapons, characters, etc).
So, roll for the 5 shoota boyz, roll once for the big shoota boy, and once for the nob, and see who gets wounded.
col_impact wrote: Which wound allocation rules do we use to resolve Stomp attacks? The rules in the shooting phase or the rules in the fight sub-phase?
The Wound Allocation rules in the Stomp Attack. They state it right in there.
I am not seeing any wound allocation rules in the Stomp rules. Can you quote what you are referring to?
Look at the chart.
2-5
Non-vehicle Target - Kerr-runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.
6
Non-vehicle Target - Overrun: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker is removed as a casualty.
That's not a rule for allocating wounds.
Wound allocation is pretty simple - every model takes a str 6 ap4 hit on a 2-5. on a 1, there's no effect, and on a 6, all die.
So, of 6 boyz, 5 with shootas and one with a big shoota, and a nob get stomped, and it's a 2-5 result, each boy and the nob take a hit. Resolve special model's hits on their own (unique weapons, characters, etc).
So, roll for the 5 shoota boyz, roll once for the big shoota boy, and once for the nob, and see who gets wounded.
Can you find me the rules in the BRB where this process you describe is discussed? Otherwise, it seems you are acting upon a "default wound allocation method" that doesn't actually exist anywhere in the rules. This is problematic.
col_impact wrote: I am not saying it's a Melee Attack and nowhere am I providing my opinion over rules. There just is no wound allocation in the Stomp rules themselves.
And yet, the rules for Melee Attacks on a unit are all the that the Fight Sub-Phase addresses, and that leads to part of the problem.
col_impact wrote: Models take the hit and not the unit themselves with regards to Template attacks. Just consider a Template that overshoots and hits models that aren't in the target unit. A hit is generated on those models just the same. And the shooting rules allocate the wounds generated by Template hits.
Fair point about the Template USR, I misremembered that one. Where does it say to allocate the Wounds by the shooting rules in Template hits? I guess we go back to General Principles:
Spoiler:
A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template or blast marker.
Which then would apply to the Stomp Attacks as well.
col_impact wrote: I am not saying it's a Melee Attack and nowhere am I providing my opinion over rules. There just is no wound allocation in the Stomp rules themselves.
And yet, the rules for Melee Attacks on a unit are all the that the Fight Sub-Phase addresses, and that leads to part of the problem.
The Fight Sub-phase addresses 'Attacks at Intiative steps'. Stomp Attacks are Attacks that happen at Initiative steps in addition to the normal Attacks.
Also, what set of rules are we using when we convert Stomp hits to wounds? Where is the permission to make a Roll To Wound roll against toughness granted for Stomps? In the Shooting Sequence or the Fight Sub-phase? If I am not mistaken, the permission to take a To Wound roll is only granted in either the Shooting Sequence or the Fight Sub-phase. So which of these grants the Roll To Wound for Stomps?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph wrote: Fair point about the Template USR, I misremembered that one. Where does it say to allocate the Wounds by the shooting rules in Template hits?
Template weapons are identified as shooting weapons and so use the Shooting Sequence, which includes wound allocation.
Spoiler:
Range
If the weapon’s range contains a ‘-’, it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon. If it
contains a number, or ‘Template’ or ‘Hellstorm’, it is a shooting weapon.
col_impact wrote: I am not saying it's a Melee Attack and nowhere am I providing my opinion over rules. There just is no wound allocation in the Stomp rules themselves.
And yet, the rules for Melee Attacks on a unit are all the that the Fight Sub-Phase addresses, and that leads to part of the problem.
The Fight Sub-phase addresses 'Attacks at Intiative steps'. Stomp Attacks are Attacks that happen at Initiative steps in addition to the normal Attacks.
It also addresses everything in there as striking blows, and a few other pithy words to describe using WS and A Charactericstics. Hardly glowing reccomendations.
col_impact wrote: Also, what set of rules are we using when we convert Stomp hits to wounds? Where is the permission to make a Roll To Wound roll against toughness granted for Stomps? In the Shooting Sequence or the Fight Sub-phase? If I am not mistaken, the permission to take a To Wound roll is only granted in either the Shooting Sequence or the Fight Sub-phase. So which of these grants the Roll To Wound for Stomps?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph wrote: Fair point about the Template USR, I misremembered that one. Where does it say to allocate the Wounds by the shooting rules in Template hits?
Template weapons are identified as shooting weapons and so use the Shooting Sequence, which includes wound allocation.
Spoiler:
Range
If the weapon’s range contains a ‘-’, it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon. If it contains a number, or ‘Template’ or ‘Hellstorm’, it is a shooting weapon.
Not terribly pertinent, really, as the General Principles I quoted already addresses the issue for both Stomp and Templates, and neither really start to conflict with it, over all.
The only time a USR rule actually states to use anything else is either Precision Shot/Strike or Barrage.
And just to help you out, here is what I'm saying:
Hits caused by templates are applied to the unit in general unless the rule specifically states the Wound only applies to the models covered. Wound Allocation is handled via the Phase as normal until otherwise directed. Stomp does not direct it otherwise, so the nearest model will still go through the Wound process by a Str 6 AP 4 as if it was hit by a Chaplain. The 6 Result and the Vehicle Hits are a slightly different story.
as the General Principles I quoted already addresses the issue for both Stomp and Templates, and neither really start to conflict with it, over all.
The only time a USR rule actually states to use anything else is either Precision Shot/Strike or Barrage.
And just to help you out, here is what I'm saying:
Hits caused by templates are applied to the unit in general unless the rule specifically states the Wound only applies to the models covered. Wound Allocation is handled via the Phase as normal until otherwise directed. Stomp does not direct it otherwise, so the nearest model will still go through the Wound process by a Str 6 AP 4 as if it was hit by a Chaplain. The 6 Result and the Vehicle Hits are a slightly different story.
Where in the BRB are you quoting General Principles from?
Also, we are agreed that Wound Allocation is handled via the Phase as normal so we use the Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation.
This means that Stomps on a roll of 2-5 will not affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with. Stomps with a roll of 6 can still affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
That is all great and dandy but consider the following.. same unit.. so ignore half this debate
Your first stomp and 2nd roll 1s. Now your third stomp which is say 4" away from your base and over the IC that you wanted to take out rolls a 6.
Even though in stomp rules it says models under the blast take the are removed.. your saying nope.. it's still comes from the closest model.
I disagree with that, I think in general we are all splitting hairs for arguments sake here... I have never tried stomping out of combat but if a blast can scatter onto combat and wound.. I view this similarly..
Also someone asked about majority toughness etc. Remember technically speaking you should be rolling ever dice individually to begin with, and it does say the model under the blast takes the hit. So it's resolved at that specific models toughness.
col_impact wrote:Where in the BRB are you quoting General Principles from?
From General Principles, the section at the front of the book before it talks about The Turn. It includes things like the rules on Characteristics, Modifiers, Line of Sight, the Most Important Rule, and Templates.
Also, we are agreed that Wound Allocation is handled via the Phase as normal so we use the Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation.
This means that Stomps on a roll of 2-5 will not affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with. Stomps with a roll of 6 can still affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
That is true for when the fight only affects the two units, however, if another unit is involved that is no longer the case.
For multiple combats:
Spoiler:
Directing Attacks
In multiple combats, during a model’s Initiative step, the following extra rules apply:
...
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
Also remember that Fight sub-Phase Wound Pools do not have a Range like Shooting Wound Pools do. Range questions are only applied when attempting to hit.
Grizzyzz wrote:That is all great and dandy but consider the following.. same unit.. so ignore half this debate
Your first stomp and 2nd roll 1s. Now your third stomp which is say 4" away from your base and over the IC that you wanted to take out rolls a 6.
Even though in stomp rules it says models under the blast take the are removed.. your saying nope.. it's still comes from the closest model.
I disagree with that, I think in general we are all splitting hairs for arguments sake here... I have never tried stomping out of combat but if a blast can scatter onto combat and wound.. I view this similarly..
Also someone asked about majority toughness etc. Remember technically speaking you should be rolling ever dice individually to begin with, and it does say the model under the blast takes the hit. So it's resolved at that specific models toughness.
A roll of #6 doesn't involve Hits, though. Hits are applied to the unit for Wound processing, the direct remove from play does not apply Wounds or Hits, it just removes models. Since the unit is hit and Wounded, Wound Allocation proceeds as normal through what is classified as the nearest model.
col_impact wrote:
Also, we are agreed that Wound Allocation is handled via the Phase as normal so we use the Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation.
This means that Stomps on a roll of 2-5 will not affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with. Stomps with a roll of 6 can still affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
That is true for when the fight only affects the two units, however, if another unit is involved that is no longer the case.
For multiple combats:
Spoiler:
Directing Attacks
In multiple combats, during a model’s Initiative step, the following extra rules apply:
...
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
Also remember that Fight sub-Phase Wound Pools do not have a Range like Shooting Wound Pools do. Range questions are only applied when attempting to hit.
Nope. My point still stands and I have indicated in red on your spoiler. Stomps that roll 2-5 can only affect units that it is locked in combat with. Your spoiler covers the case when a GMC is locked in combat with more than one unit. So if you intentionally direct your Stomp Attacks at units that your GMC is not locked in combat with, Stomp results of 2-5 are effectively null effect against those units. Only Stomp rolls of 6 will affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vipoid wrote: So, not only can Stomps affect unengaged models, they can also snipe characters? Outstanding.
Only Stomp Attacks that roll a 6 can affect unengaged models and snipe characters. Stomp Attacks that roll a 2-5 can only affect units that the GMC is locked in combat with and the wounds allocated (using the Fight Sub-phase rules) from those attacks can be Look Out, Sir!-ed and will otherwise be allocated to the nearest model.
col_impact wrote:
Also, we are agreed that Wound Allocation is handled via the Phase as normal so we use the Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation.
This means that Stomps on a roll of 2-5 will not affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with. Stomps with a roll of 6 can still affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
That is true for when the fight only affects the two units, however, if another unit is involved that is no longer the case.
For multiple combats:
Spoiler:
Directing Attacks
In multiple combats, during a model’s Initiative step, the following extra rules apply:
...
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
Also remember that Fight sub-Phase Wound Pools do not have a Range like Shooting Wound Pools do. Range questions are only applied when attempting to hit.
Nope. My point still stands and I have indicated in red on your spoiler. Stomps that roll 2-5 can only affect units that it is locked in combat with. Your spoiler covers the case when a GMC is locked in combat with more than one unit. So if you intentionally direct your Stomp Attacks at units that your GMC is not locked in combat with, Stomp results of 2-5 are effectively null effect against those units. Only Stomp rolls of 6 will affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with.
Not quite. Stomp overrides all of that portion by virtue of how it determines hits. If it was only to affect Engaged models, it would either explicitly state as such or it would not allow the Blast Marker to be out of the base's range. Instead, the Blast Marker can be set anywhere within 3" of the previous Marker's placement and is explicitly stated as not required to be in base contact of the Stomper. The Fight Sub-Phase rules kick in after this point to resolve Wounding, etc, just as Blast and Template USRs replace the To-Hit rules and then revert back to the Shooting Sequence's rules after finishing that. Barrage creates an additional modification to the Wound Allocation process as well, but it is also clearly noted.
col_impact wrote:
Also, we are agreed that Wound Allocation is handled via the Phase as normal so we use the Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation.
This means that Stomps on a roll of 2-5 will not affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with. Stomps with a roll of 6 can still affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
That is true for when the fight only affects the two units, however, if another unit is involved that is no longer the case.
For multiple combats:
Spoiler:
Directing Attacks
In multiple combats, during a model’s Initiative step, the following extra rules apply:
...
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
Also remember that Fight sub-Phase Wound Pools do not have a Range like Shooting Wound Pools do. Range questions are only applied when attempting to hit.
Nope. My point still stands and I have indicated in red on your spoiler. Stomps that roll 2-5 can only affect units that it is locked in combat with. Your spoiler covers the case when a GMC is locked in combat with more than one unit. So if you intentionally direct your Stomp Attacks at units that your GMC is not locked in combat with, Stomp results of 2-5 are effectively null effect against those units. Only Stomp rolls of 6 will affect units that the GMC is not locked in combat with.
Not quite. Stomp overrides all of that portion by virtue of how it determines hits. If it was only to affect Engaged models, it would either explicitly state as such or it would not allow the Blast Marker to be out of the base's range. Instead, the Blast Marker can be set anywhere within 3" of the previous Marker's placement and is explicitly stated as not required to be in base contact of the Stomper. The Fight Sub-Phase rules kick in after this point to resolve Wounding, etc, just as Blast and Template USRs replace the To-Hit rules and then revert back to the Shooting Sequence's rules after finishing that. Barrage creates an additional modification to the Wound Allocation process as well, but it is also clearly noted.
Sure Stomp will generate hits on units out of combat, but you cannot allocate wounds to those units per the Fight Sub-phase rules and so those hits are lost.
Sure Stomp will generate hits on units out of combat, but you cannot allocate wounds to those units per the Fight Sub-phase rules and so those hits are lost.
Sure Stomp will generate hits on units out of combat, but you cannot allocate wounds to those units per the Fight Sub-phase rules and so those hits are lost.
That is not at all true.
There is not any rule that states what you claim.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
Sure Stomp will generate hits on units out of combat, but you cannot allocate wounds to those units per the Fight Sub-phase rules and so those hits are lost.
That is not at all true.
There is not any rule that states what you claim.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
And that is under the assumption that only one unit is hit. Indeed, the process detailed before that states as such.
However, if muiltiple units are involved, the rules change as I have already provided.
Sure Stomp will generate hits on units out of combat, but you cannot allocate wounds to those units per the Fight Sub-phase rules and so those hits are lost.
That is not at all true.
There is not any rule that states what you claim.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
And that is under the assumption that only one unit is hit. Indeed, the process detailed before that states as such.
However, if muiltiple units are involved, the rules change as I have already provided.
Incorrect! Stomp Attacks can only wound multiple units if the units are locked in combat. Are you reading carefully the rules you are quoting? This is the second time I have corrected you on this.
Spoiler:
Directing Attacks
In multiple combats, during a model’s Initiative step, the following extra rules apply:
...
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
col_impact wrote: Incorrect! Stomp Attacks can only wound multiple units if the units are locked in combat. Are you reading carefully the rules you are quoting? This is the second time I have corrected you on this.
Spoiler:
Directing Attacks
In multiple combats, during a model’s Initiative step, the following extra rules apply:
...
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
col_impact wrote: Incorrect! Stomp Attacks can only wound multiple units if the units are locked in combat. Are you reading carefully the rules you are quoting? This is the second time I have corrected you on this.
Spoiler:
Directing Attacks
In multiple combats, during a model’s Initiative step, the following extra rules apply:
...
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
Is the Stomp an Attack, or an attack?
Both. The BRB is not consistent in application of case.
Spoiler:
The Stomp attack is made in addition to the Super-heavy Walker’s normal attacks.
Col - the fight sub phase allocation rules only trigger when you are allocating wounds to a unit. Stomp never allocated to a unit, or never even hits a unit. It hits, and wounds, a model. It's similar to gets hot in that regard.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col - the fight sub phase allocation rules only trigger when you are allocating wounds to a unit. Stomp never allocated to a unit, or never even hits a unit. It hits, and wounds, a model. It's similar to gets hot in that regard.
Point to the rules for the To Wound roll and the Wound Allocation rules that we are supposed to use then.
Gets Hot! makes it clear in the rules for Gets Hot! themselves how to handle the wound
Spoiler:
For each roll of a 1, the
weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single
Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be
allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt
to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule.
Stomp Attacks make no specification so we are to use rules already provided. So kindly point to them. If there are none to point to then the ones for the Fight Sub-phase are to be used.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col - the fight sub phase allocation rules only trigger when you are allocating wounds to a unit. Stomp never allocated to a unit, or never even hits a unit. It hits, and wounds, a model. It's similar to gets hot in that regard.
Point to the rules for the To Wound roll and the Wound Allocation rules that we are supposed to use then.
Gets Hot! makes it clear in the rules for Gets Hot! themselves how to handle the wound
Spoiler:
For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule.
Stomp Attacks make no specification so we are to use rules already provided. So kindly point to them. If there are none to point to then the ones for the Fight Sub-phase are to be used.
Show me how to resolve a 1 on the Perils of the Warp table since the Wound Rules are not in that section.
Your argument is flawed in that GW commonly allows wounding in phases without defining wounding in those phases.. Vector Strike for movement phase as well. Your literal translation fails under context.
Sure Stomp will generate hits on units out of combat, but you cannot allocate wounds to those units per the Fight Sub-phase rules and so those hits are lost.
That is not at all true.
There is not any rule that states what you claim.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
And that is under the assumption that only one unit is hit. Indeed, the process detailed before that states as such.
However, if muiltiple units are involved, the rules change as I have already provided.
Incorrect! Stomp Attacks can only wound multiple units if the units are locked in combat. Are you reading carefully the rules you are quoting? This is the second time I have corrected you on this.
Spoiler:
Directing Attacks
In multiple combats, during a model’s Initiative step, the following extra rules apply:
...
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
This is not true. Stomp attacks are NOT close combat attacks and thus are not limited to those wounding those locked in close combat with the GMC
Even better, may a super-heavy make stomp attacks when it's engaged with another super-heavy that cannot be hurt by stomps? And use those to stomp off on another unit?
I don't see anything preventing this. It says that other super-heavies cannot be hurt by stomps, but it doesn't say the attacks cannot be made.
Charistoph wrote: And that is under the assumption that only one unit is hit. Indeed, the process detailed before that states as such.
However, if muiltiple units are involved, the rules change as I have already provided.
Incorrect! Stomp Attacks can only wound multiple units if the units are locked in combat. Are you reading carefully the rules you are quoting? This is the second time I have corrected you on this.
Spoiler:
Directing Attacks In multiple combats, during a model’s Initiative step, the following extra rules apply: ... •A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
You apparently do not realize that Stomp Attacks overwrites that section you highlighted (and a little after) when it states that the blast marker does not need to be placed in base contact with the Stomper, just as much as the Blast and Template rules overwrite the To-Hit rules listed in the Shooting Sequence.
Attacks from a Stomp Attack are determined by first the D3 roll for number, and then by placing the marker where desired, with the restriction that the first be in base contact, and any subsequent marker placements be within 3" of the previous. Hits are factored after that by determining the models underneath, and rolling a 2-5 on said units Stomp results. Once Hits are determined, we go to the To-Wound process, which is not directly changed by the Stomp rules. However, the possibility of multiple units being hit by it takes us to the determinations brought to us by Multiple Combats.
Or to put it another way, the red goes against how the Stomp Rules are stated, while the Green is where it picks up (and a little before, there's a step missing between them that talks about actually Wounding).
Spoiler:
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
Sure Stomp will generate hits on units out of combat, but you cannot allocate wounds to those units per the Fight Sub-phase rules and so those hits are lost.
That is not at all true.
There is not any rule that states what you claim.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated before moving on to the next pool of Wounds. Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first. To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows: • A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate, the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to. Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary). • If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty (if necessary). In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit, wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those that are not engaged.
That does not say what you think it says.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col - the fight sub phase allocation rules only trigger when you are allocating wounds to a unit. Stomp never allocated to a unit, or never even hits a unit. It hits, and wounds, a model. It's similar to gets hot in that regard.
100% this.
axisofentropy wrote: Even better, may a super-heavy make stomp attacks when it's engaged with another super-heavy that cannot be hurt by stomps? And use those to stomp off on another unit?
I don't see anything preventing this. It says that other super-heavies cannot be hurt by stomps, but it doesn't say the attacks cannot be made.
Why wouldn't they be able to?
You can use Stomp attacks when the initiative comes around to use stomp attacks. you just follow the rules for Stomp and if you cover a SHW you dont resolve those hits due to the rules for stomp but you can hit other units as normal.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col - the fight sub phase allocation rules only trigger when you are allocating wounds to a unit. Stomp never allocated to a unit, or never even hits a unit. It hits, and wounds, a model. It's similar to gets hot in that regard.
Point to the rules for the To Wound roll and the Wound Allocation rules that we are supposed to use then.
Gets Hot! makes it clear in the rules for Gets Hot! themselves how to handle the wound
Spoiler:
For each roll of a 1, the
weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single
Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be
allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt
to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule.
Stomp Attacks make no specification so we are to use rules already provided. So kindly point to them. If there are none to point to then the ones for the Fight Sub-phase are to be used.
Show me how to resolve a 1 on the Perils of the Warp table since the Wound Rules are not in that section.
Your argument is flawed in that GW commonly allows wounding in phases without defining wounding in those phases.. Vector Strike for movement phase as well. Your literal translation fails under context.
Did you read the Perils of the Warp table?
Spoiler:
For Wound allocation purposes, assume the
attack is coming from the Psyker that suffered Perils of the Warp.
Did you read Vector Strike?
Spoiler:
Unless stated otherwise,
Vector Strike hits are resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength and AP2, using
Random Allocation.
Spoiler:
Random Allocation
On occasion, it will be impossible to determine which model is closest to an attack for
Wound allocation purposes, usually because the attack doesn’t originate from an enemy
unit, but from a lethal environmental hazard such as man-eating forests or lightning bolts
lancing down from the sky. If you cannot determine the direction of an attack to
work out which model in a unit is closest, or if a special rule refers to Random
Allocation, do the following: randomly determine a model in the unit – that
model is treated as being the closest model to the attack and remains so until
either the attack ends or the model is slain. For the purposes of determining if the
model is obscured, imagine the attack is coming from directly above its unit. If the model
is slain and there are still Wounds left to allocate, simply randomise again if needs be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph wrote: You apparently do not realize that Stomp Attacks overwrites that section you highlighted (and a little after) when it states that the blast marker does not need to be placed in base contact with the Stomper, just as much as the Blast and Template rules overwrite the To-Hit rules listed in the Shooting Sequence.
Attacks from a Stomp Attack are determined by first the D3 roll for number, and then by placing the marker where desired, with the restriction that the first be in base contact, and any subsequent marker placements be within 3" of the previous. Hits are factored after that by determining the models underneath, and rolling a 2-5 on said units Stomp results. Once Hits are determined, we go to the To-Wound process, which is not directly changed by the Stomp rules. However, the possibility of multiple units being hit by it takes us to the determinations brought to us by Multiple Combats.
Or to put it another way, the red goes against how the Stomp Rules are stated, while the Green is where it picks up (and a little before, there's a step missing between them that talks about actually Wounding).
Spoiler:
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
Stomp only provides rules for generating hits on models, just like the Template rules provide. We still fully adhere to the wound allocation rules in the Fight Sub-phase unless someone here successfully points to some other rules we are to use.
So until someone provides something different than the Fight Sub-phase, these are the wound allocation rules that we use.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
So, what would those rules mean for stomps? If you roll 2-5 on a unit outside of combat, would those hits be lost, or would they just be allocated to models engaged with the IK?
Col - hand waving away the difference between model and unit is crass
You are told that the model is hit, and never the unit. You have no targeting of a unit. You may onky allocate wound that model, nothing else has any permission
Over to you. Show how rules that require a unit target may be used when you have a model target. Page and graph. Precise, cited rules, no hand waving away.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col - hand waving away the difference between model and unit is crass
You are told that the model is hit, and never the unit. You have no targeting of a unit. You may onky allocate wound that model, nothing else has any permission
Over to you. Show how rules that require a unit target may be used when you have a model target. Page and graph. Precise, cited rules, no hand waving away.
I am not handwaving the difference between model and unit. Any model on the battlefield is in a unit.
Stomp attacks generate hits on models just like Templates do. In the case of Templates, the Shooting rules apply and permit a To Wound Roll,Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
If you are not using the Fight Sub-phase rules in the case of Stomp attacks, then you lack rules permitting a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
The burden is actually on you to provide rules for Stomp attacks that permit a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
So Nosferatu, feel free to point to the rules in the BRB that permit a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds in the case of Stomps. If you are permitting a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds on Stomp hits without rule justification then that sure is one big whomping house rule you got there. I will stick with RAW and please only bug me when you are prepared to discuss RAW.
So, what would those rules mean for stomps? If you roll 2-5 on a unit outside of combat, would those hits be lost, or would they just be allocated to models engaged with the IK?
Those hits would be lost. Rolls of 6 would still be fully effective on a unit outside of combat.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Col - hand waving away the difference between model and unit is crass
You are told that the model is hit, and never the unit. You have no targeting of a unit. You may onky allocate wound that model, nothing else has any permission
Over to you. Show how rules that require a unit target may be used when you have a model target. Page and graph. Precise, cited rules, no hand waving away.
I am not handwaving the difference between model and unit. Any model on the battlefield is in a unit.
Stomp attacks generate hits on models just like Templates do. In the case of Templates, the Shooting rules apply and permit a To Wound Roll,Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
If you are not using the Fight Sub-phase rules in the case of Stomp attacks, then you lack rules permitting a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
The burden is actually on you to provide rules for Stomp attacks that permit a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
So Nosferatu, feel free to point to the rules in the BRB that permit a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds in the case of Stomps. If you are permitting a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds on Stomp hits without rule justification then that sure is one big whomping house rule you got there. I will stick with RAW and please only bug me when you are prepared to discuss RAW.
So, what would those rules mean for stomps? If you roll 2-5 on a unit outside of combat, would those hits be lost, or would they just be allocated to models engaged with the IK?
Those hits would be lost. Rolls of 6 would still be fully effective on a unit outside of combat.
Dude you are wrong. Face it. Every single person is telling you that you are wrong.
Yes, all ldeles belong to units. Again, please explain how you can apply rules pertaining to allocating sounds to units to a single model. Page olease, since you're discussing raw supposedly you will be able to back it up with an actual page ref.
I'll "bug you" until you can be bothered to apply the tenets of this forum and back up your argument.
So, can you? Or are you making a huge assumptive leap that because all models are in units, that rules pertaining to units can be applied to models without any text stating so?
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes, all ldeles belong to units. Again, please explain how you can apply rules pertaining to allocating sounds to units to a single model. Page olease, since you're discussing raw supposedly you will be able to back it up with an actual page ref.
I'll "bug you" until you can be bothered to apply the tenets of this forum and back up your argument.
So, can you? Or are you making a huge assumptive leap that because all models are in units, that rules pertaining to units can be applied to models without any text stating so?
Stomp attacks generate hits on models just like Templates generate hits on models. The rules that we have for Wound Allocation are in the Shooting Sequence rules or in the Fight Sub-phase rules. Templates use the Shooting Sequence rules for wound allocation. Stomp attacks use the Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation since the Stomp attack rules provide no other specific alternative to the one that is being provided generally for attacks in close combat that use Initiative steps.
If you know of some more specific alternative than the Fight Sub-phase rules that Stomp attacks are to use for Wound Allocation then feel free to share it. Otherwise, the Fight Sub-phase To Wound Roll, Saves, and Wound Allocation is the only option and the general option the rules provide. Failure on your part to point to a more specific alternative is a concession on your part that the general rules of the Fight Sub-phase are in effect for Stomp attacks.
If you are proceeding to Roll To Wound, apply Saves, and Allocate Wounds by some made up procedure that is no where found in the rules then you are obviously house ruling. That is fine. Just label your suggestion as HYWPI.
So, what would those rules mean for stomps? If you roll 2-5 on a unit outside of combat, would those hits be lost, or would they just be allocated to models engaged with the IK?
Those hits would be lost. Rolls of 6 would still be fully effective on a unit outside of combat.
Sorry if this is a silly question, but why can't they just be allocated to units in combat with the knight?
Charistoph wrote: You apparently do not realize that Stomp Attacks overwrites that section you highlighted (and a little after) when it states that the blast marker does not need to be placed in base contact with the Stomper, just as much as the Blast and Template rules overwrite the To-Hit rules listed in the Shooting Sequence.
Attacks from a Stomp Attack are determined by first the D3 roll for number, and then by placing the marker where desired, with the restriction that the first be in base contact, and any subsequent marker placements be within 3" of the previous. Hits are factored after that by determining the models underneath, and rolling a 2-5 on said units Stomp results. Once Hits are determined, we go to the To-Wound process, which is not directly changed by the Stomp rules. However, the possibility of multiple units being hit by it takes us to the determinations brought to us by Multiple Combats.
Or to put it another way, the red goes against how the Stomp Rules are stated, while the Green is where it picks up (and a little before, there's a step missing between them that talks about actually Wounding).
Spoiler:
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
Stomp only provides rules for generating hits on models, just like the Template rules provide. We still fully adhere to the wound allocation rules in the Fight Sub-phase unless someone here successfully points to some other rules we are to use.
Right, and just like the Template and Blast rules, if a unit other than the target is hit, those hits are processed against the units hit. Stomp changes none of this. Fight Sub-Phase Rules do not change this if one takes in to account the Multiple Combat rules. Remember, your counterargument for this quote.
col_impact wrote:So until someone provides something different than the Fight Sub-phase, these are the wound allocation rules that we use.
Spoiler:
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
That's one way to ignore Fight Sub-Phase for Multiple Combats. Because if you recognize the Attacks can hit units not Engaged with the Stomper (and there is no argument tos support they cannot), than you must recognize the changes that Multiple Combats rules provide just as much as being Charged by another unit after Charging a first.
So, no, Wounds do not just transfer from one unit to another, nor do they just disappear because they are "out of range".
nosferatu1001 wrote:Col - hand waving away the difference between model and unit is crass
You are told that the model is hit, and never the unit. You have no targeting of a unit. You may onky allocate wound that model, nothing else has any permission
Over to you. Show how rules that require a unit target may be used when you have a model target. Page and graph. Precise, cited rules, no hand waving away.
Actually, I pointed them out in General Principles. Units take the hits for models covered by the blast marker. It makes no note as to which type of Attack the maker is generated from. Look it up at the beginning under Blast Markers and Templates. It is in bold, so hard to miss.
If you are not using the Fight Sub-phase rules in the case of Stomp attacks, then you lack rules permitting a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
The burden is actually on you to provide rules for Stomp attacks that permit a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
Show the rules from the Psychic and Movement phases. Which page are those charts on ? You haven't provide that yet.
If you are not using the Fight Sub-phase rules in the case of Stomp attacks, then you lack rules permitting a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
The burden is actually on you to provide rules for Stomp attacks that permit a To Wound Roll, Saves, and the Allocation of Wounds.
Show the rules from the Psychic and Movement phases. Which page are those charts on ? You haven't provide that yet.
Not needed. I have already shown you that 1 for Perils of the Warp and Vector Strike specify how to allocate wounds in their rules. Please take note of what I show you.
Fragile wrote: Your response had nothing. You are obviously confused about the rules.
You are now just being intentionally obtuse.
Don't bug me until you are ready to actively participate in the RAW discussion and have read and are prepared to respond in a constructive manner to what I already showed you.
For Wound allocation purposes, assume the
attack is coming from the Psyker that suffered Perils of the Warp.
This rule gives the direction the attack is coming from. It has nothing to do with how to allocate the S6 AP1 wounds. Show me a chart to figure out whether the unit is wounded or not.
Did you read Vector Strike?
Spoiler:
Unless stated otherwise,
Vector Strike hits are resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength and AP2, using
Random Allocation.
Again, your told to use a Strength characteristic and an AP, but no chart in the Movement Phase to figure out whether the target unit is wounded. Looks like that Flying Hive Tyrant cannot hurt anything by flying over it.
Spoiler:
Random Allocation
On occasion, it will be impossible to determine which model is closest to an attack for
Wound allocation purposes, usually because the attack doesn’t originate from an enemy
unit, but from a lethal environmental hazard such as man-eating forests or lightning bolts
lancing down from the sky. If you cannot determine the direction of an attack to
work out which model in a unit is closest, or if a special rule refers to Random
Allocation, do the following: randomly determine a model in the unit – that
model is treated as being the closest model to the attack and remains so until
either the attack ends or the model is slain. For the purposes of determining if the
model is obscured, imagine the attack is coming from directly above its unit. If the model
is slain and there are still Wounds left to allocate, simply randomise again if needs be.
Again, your confused. We are not talking about Where the attack comes from. That is for allocating wounds. You still have not shown a rule to generate a wound pool in the Psychic or Movement Phases. Only Shooting and Assault phases have those.
So until you find a chart to generate a wound pool, you are wrong.
Charistoph wrote: You apparently do not realize that Stomp Attacks overwrites that section you highlighted (and a little after) when it states that the blast marker does not need to be placed in base contact with the Stomper, just as much as the Blast and Template rules overwrite the To-Hit rules listed in the Shooting Sequence.
Attacks from a Stomp Attack are determined by first the D3 roll for number, and then by placing the marker where desired, with the restriction that the first be in base contact, and any subsequent marker placements be within 3" of the previous. Hits are factored after that by determining the models underneath, and rolling a 2-5 on said units Stomp results. Once Hits are determined, we go to the To-Wound process, which is not directly changed by the Stomp rules. However, the possibility of multiple units being hit by it takes us to the determinations brought to us by Multiple Combats.
Or to put it another way, the red goes against how the Stomp Rules are stated, while the Green is where it picks up (and a little before, there's a step missing between them that talks about actually Wounding).
•A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect.
Stomp only provides rules for generating hits on models, just like the Template rules provide. We still fully adhere to the wound allocation rules in the Fight Sub-phase unless someone here successfully points to some other rules we are to use.
Right, and just like the Template and Blast rules, if a unit other than the target is hit, those hits are processed against the units hit. Stomp changes none of this. Fight Sub-Phase Rules do not change this if one takes in to account the Multiple Combat rules. Remember, your counterargument for this quote.
col_impact wrote:So until someone provides something different than the Fight Sub-phase, these are the wound allocation rules that we use.
Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
To determine how many casualties are caused at a particular Initiative step, you will need
to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. If
several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the Attacks must decide
in which order they are allocated. All Wounds from a single pool must be allocated
before moving on to the next pool of Wounds.
Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in
the Shooting phase. However, as you’ll often have many models in base contact with
the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a
model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate,
the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative
step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If
two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models
being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty
(if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged.
That's one way to ignore Fight Sub-Phase for Multiple Combats. Because if you recognize the Attacks can hit units not Engaged with the Stomper (and there is no argument tos support they cannot), than you must recognize the changes that Multiple Combats rules provide just as much as being Charged by another unit after Charging a first.
So, no, Wounds do not just transfer from one unit to another, nor do they just disappear because they are "out of range".
nosferatu1001 wrote:Col - hand waving away the difference between model and unit is crass
You are told that the model is hit, and never the unit. You have no targeting of a unit. You may onky allocate wound that model, nothing else has any permission
Over to you. Show how rules that require a unit target may be used when you have a model target. Page and graph. Precise, cited rules, no hand waving away.
Actually, I pointed them out in General Principles. Units take the hits for models covered by the blast marker. It makes no note as to which type of Attack the maker is generated from. Look it up at the beginning under Blast Markers and Templates. It is in bold, so hard to miss.
Templates and Stomp attacks may be able to generate hits on units that are not the target unit but that does not mean that wounds will be allocated. Templates and Stomp attacks still have to abide by the restrictions of wound allocation.
The Shooting Sequence rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated on models that are "out of range" (does not apply in the case of Template since the Template is the range) or "out of sight". For shooting you cannot wound what you cannot reach and/or what you cannot see.
The Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated onto models that are not locked in combat.
Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to multiple units but each of these has to be locked in combat with the stomping GMC.
For Wound allocation purposes, assume the
attack is coming from the Psyker that suffered Perils of the Warp.
This rule gives the direction the attack is coming from. It has nothing to do with how to allocate the S6 AP1 wounds. Show me a chart to figure out whether the unit is wounded or not.
Did you read Vector Strike?
Spoiler:
Unless stated otherwise,
Vector Strike hits are resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength and AP2, using
Random Allocation.
Again, your told to use a Strength characteristic and an AP, but no chart in the Movement Phase to figure out whether the target unit is wounded. Looks like that Flying Hive Tyrant cannot hurt anything by flying over it.
Spoiler:
Random Allocation
On occasion, it will be impossible to determine which model is closest to an attack for
Wound allocation purposes, usually because the attack doesn’t originate from an enemy
unit, but from a lethal environmental hazard such as man-eating forests or lightning bolts
lancing down from the sky. If you cannot determine the direction of an attack to
work out which model in a unit is closest, or if a special rule refers to Random
Allocation, do the following: randomly determine a model in the unit – that
model is treated as being the closest model to the attack and remains so until
either the attack ends or the model is slain. For the purposes of determining if the
model is obscured, imagine the attack is coming from directly above its unit. If the model
is slain and there are still Wounds left to allocate, simply randomise again if needs be.
Again, your confused. We are not talking about Where the attack comes from. That is for allocating wounds. You still have not shown a rule to generate a wound pool in the Psychic or Movement Phases. Only Shooting and Assault phases have those.
So until you find a chart to generate a wound pool, you are wrong.
Both of those rules point to explicit permission for Wound Allocation to happen. Wound Allocation rules exist in 2 places in the BRB - in the context of the Shooting Sequence and in the context of the Fight Sub-phase. So the rules give explicit permission to access one of those sections directly to do Wound Allocation. The player is not explicitly told which of the two Wound Allocation rules to use. The Psychic phase rules indicate that it models itself after shooting so they very strongly 'hint' to use the Wound Allocation rules in the Shooting Sequence and Vector Strike/Random Allocation similarly 'hints' to use the Wound Allocation in the Shooting Sequence.
col_impact wrote: Templates and Stomp attacks may be able to generate hits on units that are not the target unit but that does not mean that wounds will be allocated. Templates and Stomp attacks still have to abide by the restrictions of wound allocation.
Already addressed under the auspices of Multiple Combat. Unless you can prove that this is NOT a case of Multiple Combat?
Let's see, what is the description of that again?
Spoiler:
Combats that involve more than two units are called multiple combats (see the diagram opposite for an example). These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units, or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat. Because of the extra complexity, they need some additional rules.
So, Stomps Attacks hitting multiple units will be involving more than two units, and so follow their rules.
col_impact wrote: The Shooting Sequence rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated on models that are "out of range" (does not apply in the case of Template since the Template is the range) or "out of sight". For shooting you cannot wound what you cannot reach and/or what you cannot see.
There is no pertinence to the discussion in this, really. Stomps are not Shooting Attacks, nor part of the Shooting Phase.
col_impact wrote: The Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated onto models that are not locked in combat.
Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to multiple units but each of these has to be locked in combat with the stomping GMC.
Only if you ignore Multiple Combat rules:
Spoiler:
A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect).
The highlighted part is what is pertinent at this point. The previous portion of allocating Attacks is taken care of with Stomp's rules with the Blast Marker.
And no, Wounds are never tossed out for being outside of the initial target's scope. Attacks and hits might be, but that is resolved before the actual Wounding process. The only time Wounds are tossed in the Fight sub-Phase is if there is nothing left to Wound (or datasheet rule specifically stating such).
col_impact wrote: Templates and Stomp attacks may be able to generate hits on units that are not the target unit but that does not mean that wounds will be allocated. Templates and Stomp attacks still have to abide by the restrictions of wound allocation.
Already addressed under the auspices of Multiple Combat. Unless you can prove that this is NOT a case of Multiple Combat?
Let's see, what is the description of that again?
Combats that involve more than two units are called multiple combats (see the diagram opposite for an example). These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units, or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat. Because of the extra complexity, they need some additional rules.
So, Stomps Attacks hitting multiple units will be involving more than two units, and so follow their rules.
col_impact wrote: The Shooting Sequence rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated on models that are "out of range" (does not apply in the case of Template since the Template is the range) or "out of sight". For shooting you cannot wound what you cannot reach and/or what you cannot see.
There is no pertinence to the discussion in this, really. Stomps are not Shooting Attacks, nor part of the Shooting Phase.
col_impact wrote: The Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated onto models that are not locked in combat.
Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to multiple units but each of these has to be locked in combat with the stomping GMC.
Only if you ignore Multiple Combat rules:
A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect).
The highlighted part is what is pertinent at this point. The previous portion of allocating Attacks is taken care of with Stomp's rules with the Blast Marker.
And no, Wounds are never tossed out for being outside of the initial target's scope. Attacks and hits might be, but that is resolved before the actual Wounding process. The only time Wounds are tossed in the Fight sub-Phase is if there is nothing left to Wound (or datasheet rule specifically stating such).
Please identify and make clear what case you are talking about.
If a GMC is locked in combat with multiple units there is no question that Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to all of those units.
However, the Fight Sub-phase rules do not allow a GMC to allocate wounds to a unit that it is not locked in combat with.
col_impact wrote: Templates and Stomp attacks may be able to generate hits on units that are not the target unit but that does not mean that wounds will be allocated. Templates and Stomp attacks still have to abide by the restrictions of wound allocation.
Already addressed under the auspices of Multiple Combat. Unless you can prove that this is NOT a case of Multiple Combat?
Let's see, what is the description of that again?
Combats that involve more than two units are called multiple combats (see the diagram opposite for an example). These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units, or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat. Because of the extra complexity, they need some additional rules.
So, Stomps Attacks hitting multiple units will be involving more than two units, and so follow their rules.
col_impact wrote: The Shooting Sequence rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated on models that are "out of range" (does not apply in the case of Template since the Template is the range) or "out of sight". For shooting you cannot wound what you cannot reach and/or what you cannot see.
There is no pertinence to the discussion in this, really. Stomps are not Shooting Attacks, nor part of the Shooting Phase.
col_impact wrote: The Fight Sub-phase rules for wound allocation will throw out wounds attempting to be allocated onto models that are not locked in combat.
Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to multiple units but each of these has to be locked in combat with the stomping GMC.
Only if you ignore Multiple Combat rules:
A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect).
The highlighted part is what is pertinent at this point. The previous portion of allocating Attacks is taken care of with Stomp's rules with the Blast Marker.
And no, Wounds are never tossed out for being outside of the initial target's scope. Attacks and hits might be, but that is resolved before the actual Wounding process. The only time Wounds are tossed in the Fight sub-Phase is if there is nothing left to Wound (or datasheet rule specifically stating such).
Please identify and make clear what case you are talking about.
If a GMC is locked in combat with multiple units there is no question that Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to all of those units.
However, the Fight Sub-phase rules do not allow a GMC to allocate wounds to a unit that it is not locked in combat with.
I love how you are stuck on this one point when it has been explained to you multipole time already.
You also skip over rebutting every single example given to you.
col_impact wrote: Please identify and make clear what case you are talking about.
If a GMC is locked in combat with multiple units there is no question that Stomp attacks can allocate wounds to all of those units.
However, the Fight Sub-phase rules do not allow a GMC to allocate wounds to a unit that it is not locked in combat with.
Incorrect. I have already explained this and you have nothing to support it without adding rules and ignoring a set of the rules.
Normally, the Fight Sub-Phase does not allow a Stomper to allocate Attacks to a unit that it is not locked in combat with. No Attacks hitting a unit, not Wounds.
However, the Stomp rules ignore the Fight Sub-Phase's rules in allocating Attacks. Indeed, there is nothing that requires the Blast Marker to stay in base contact with the Stomper nor require it only be placed over models they are Engaged with. For a Stomp Attack to hit, you place the Blast Marker in base contact, and you don't even have to place it on the unit you are Engaged with! Then you place any further Markers within 3" of the one before. This can cause the Stomp Attack to hit units the Stomper is not Engaged with and even units that are not Engaged at all.
These are calculated as hits in the Assault Phase, and more specifically, the Fight Sub-Phase. And if the Attacks manage to hit another unit, that unit can easily be said to be involved in that combat. Queue the Multiple Conflicts definition:
Spoiler:
Combats that involve more than two units are called multiple combats (see the diagram opposite for an example). These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units, or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat. Because of the extra complexity, they need some additional rules.
So we have the Stomper, the unit the Stomper is Engaged with that allows the Stomp Attacks to occur, and any units that have been hit by the Stomp Attack. Having established this, we continue with the Stomps rules. Now, for sake of the discussion applying to the situation we're going to assume that 3 units have been hit, and all receive a 2-5 result on the Stomp chart. 1 basically ignores the Attack, and 6 just removes models without Wounding, meaning both are pointless for the discussion at hand. Unit 1 is Engaged with the Stomper, Unit 2 is right behind them, but not fighting anyone, and Unit 3 is even further back fighting someone else.
So, the 3 units receive attempts to Wound them with Str 6, AP 4, based on how many models were under the base. Unit 1 gets 1 Wound, Unit 2 gets 2 Wounds, and Unit 3 gets unlucky with 3 Wounds. So, we look at how we are supposed to allocate them:
Spoiler:
To resolve casualty removal, allocate each Wound as follows:
• A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step. If there is more than one eligible candidate, the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to. Roll the model’s saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
• If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model locked in that combat. If two or more models are equidistant from the attack, the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model is closest. Take any save and remove the casualty (if necessary).
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit, wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those that are not engaged....
Spoiler:
Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect).
So, the Wounds get Save attempts with the ones in Base Contact first, and then they go one to the nearest to the Stomper, but only for the units that still have Wound Pools on them. Unit 1 attempts 1 Save, and it would be one in base contact if Unit 1 is Engaged with the Stomper. Unit 2 would then attempt 2 Saves, starting with the model nearest the Stomper. Unit 3 would then attempt 3 Saves, starting with the model nearest the Stomper, even though they are Engaged in another Combat that may even be on its other side.
"These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units..."
Nope.
"..., or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat."
Also no.
Those are the only two instances in which you are permitted to use the rules for multiple combats. Since neither apply, you cannot use the rules for multiple combats.
vipoid wrote: How are you using the multiple combats rules?
"These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units..."
Nope.
"..., or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat."
Also no.
Those are the only two instances in which you are permitted to use the rules for multiple combats. Since neither apply, you cannot use the rules for multiple combats.
"Combats that involve more than two units are called multiple combats (see the diagram opposite for an example)."
vipoid wrote: Except that two criteria are provided for how that can occur, and a knight stomping out of combat meets neither of them.
But they are not restricted to only them
Yes they are. It is an exhaustive list. There is no leeway given for alternate/similar situations.
Again, there are exactly two scenarios specified, and if neither are applicable than you are not permitted to use the Multiple Combats rule.
So it doesn't happen when another unit does not Charge? Such as the turn following the last unit Charged? An exhaustive list would be one that gave no leeway, such as "are only considered during x events". It just states when it occurs under normal circumstances, and does not forbid other circumstances from occuring.
The only practicable solution is that Stomp overrides this conflict due to its ability to involve others in the Fight than what are Engaged, unless you can point out how the Stomp cannot affect those unEngaged with the Stomper.
So it doesn't happen when another unit does not Charge? Such as the turn following the last unit Charged?
What do you mean?
The unit still charged in the previous turn, and Multiple Combats doesn't dictate that the charge must have occurred in the current turn.
Charistoph wrote: An exhaustive list would be one that gave no leeway, such as "are only considered during x events".
Which is exactly what this is. It gives you exactly 2 scenarios when the rules for Multiple Combats apply. You have no permission whatsoever to fabricate additional ones.
The only practicable solution is that Stomp overrides this conflict due to its ability to involve others in the Fight than what are Engaged, unless you can point out how the Stomp cannot affect those unEngaged with the Stomper.
Nope, sorry, that's far from the only practical solution.
If you want to house rule it that way in your group, fine. Just don't pretend that doing so is somehow following the rules.
The Fight Sub-phase rules are clear that they only allocate wounds to models that are 'in combat' with the GMC.
While a Stomp attack might be able to collaterally generate hits on a unit that it is not in combat with, generating those hits does not change that affected unit to being 'in combat'.
Thus, Stomp attacks allocate no wounds to units that are not 'in combat' with the GMC.
col_impact wrote: The Fight Sub-phase rules are clear that they only allocate wounds to models that are 'in combat' with the GMC.
While a Stomp attack might be able to collaterally generate hits on a unit that it is not in combat with, generating those hits does not change that affected unit to being 'in combat'.
Thus, Stomp attacks allocate no wounds to units that are not 'in combat' with the GMC.
You are being purposefully obtuse. It is obvious that the units not in combat will still be hit and people have given you proof and you still fail to see it. No one cares if the "sub-fight phase" has no way to allocate wounds to those other units. Examples like vector strike which damage during the movement phase have been give. That also has no wound allocation method in that phase.
col_impact wrote: The Fight Sub-phase rules are clear that they only allocate wounds to models that are 'in combat' with the GMC.
While a Stomp attack might be able to collaterally generate hits on a unit that it is not in combat with, generating those hits does not change that affected unit to being 'in combat'.
Thus, Stomp attacks allocate no wounds to units that are not 'in combat' with the GMC.
You are being purposefully obtuse. It is obvious that the units not in combat will still be hit and people have given you proof and you still fail to see it. No one cares if the "sub-fight phase" has no way to allocate wounds to those other units. Examples like vector strike which damage during the movement phase have been give. That also has no wound allocation method in that phase.
I am simply following the rules that the BRB lays before me. If you want to actually counter my argument you are going to have to provide alternate rules for Wound Allocation than the rules that I have general permission to follow (the Fight Sub-phase rules).
If you have been making up rules in the way that you play Stomp, that is fine. Simply mark your proposed house rule alternative as HYWPI. We are focusing on RAW in this discussion.
col_impact wrote: The Fight Sub-phase rules are clear that they only allocate wounds to models that are 'in combat' with the GMC.
While a Stomp attack might be able to collaterally generate hits on a unit that it is not in combat with, generating those hits does not change that affected unit to being 'in combat'.
Thus, Stomp attacks allocate no wounds to units that are not 'in combat' with the GMC.
You are being purposefully obtuse. It is obvious that the units not in combat will still be hit and people have given you proof and you still fail to see it. No one cares if the "sub-fight phase" has no way to allocate wounds to those other units. Examples like vector strike which damage during the movement phase have been give. That also has no wound allocation method in that phase.
I am simply following the rules that the BRB lays before me. If you want to actually counter my argument you are going to have to provide alternate rules for Wound Allocation than the rules that I have general permission to follow (the Fight Sub-phase rules).
If you have been making up rules in the way that you play Stomp, that is fine. Simply mark your proposed house rule alternative as HYWPI. We are focusing on RAW in this discussion.
So skipping over the vector strike example again are ya? You keep doing that. Every time someone makes a point you cannot address, you just ignore it and tell the other person they are wrong.
col_impact wrote: The Fight Sub-phase rules are clear that they only allocate wounds to models that are 'in combat' with the GMC.
While a Stomp attack might be able to collaterally generate hits on a unit that it is not in combat with, generating those hits does not change that affected unit to being 'in combat'.
Thus, Stomp attacks allocate no wounds to units that are not 'in combat' with the GMC.
You are being purposefully obtuse. It is obvious that the units not in combat will still be hit and people have given you proof and you still fail to see it. No one cares if the "sub-fight phase" has no way to allocate wounds to those other units. Examples like vector strike which damage during the movement phase have been give. That also has no wound allocation method in that phase.
I am simply following the rules that the BRB lays before me. If you want to actually counter my argument you are going to have to provide alternate rules for Wound Allocation than the rules that I have general permission to follow (the Fight Sub-phase rules).
If you have been making up rules in the way that you play Stomp, that is fine. Simply mark your proposed house rule alternative as HYWPI. We are focusing on RAW in this discussion.
So skipping over the vector strike example again are ya? You keep doing that. Every time someone makes a point you cannot address, you just ignore it and tell the other person they are wrong.
I addressed Vector strike some time ago in the thread.
Spoiler:
Both of those rules point to explicit permission for Wound Allocation to happen. Wound Allocation rules exist in 2 places in the BRB - in the context of the Shooting Sequence and in the context of the Fight Sub-phase. So the rules give explicit permission to access one of those sections directly to do Wound Allocation. The player is not explicitly told which of the two Wound Allocation rules to use. The Psychic phase rules indicate that it models itself after shooting so they very strongly 'hint' to use the Wound Allocation rules in the Shooting Sequence and Vector Strike/Random Allocation similarly 'hints' to use the Wound Allocation in the Shooting Sequence.
acme2468 wrote: Note however that most Tournaments rule you can't target units out of the combat.
I like when people say this, as if they've been involved in sufficiently large a number of totally-representative tournaments to be able to make such a claim.
Well ITC doesn't allow you to hit units your not engaged with and that is a decent representative of a lot of major events. Of course it doesn't cover the more numerous small scaled events.
acme2468 wrote: Note however that most Tournaments rule you can't target units out of the combat.
I like when people say this, as if they've been involved in sufficiently large a number of totally-representative tournaments to be able to make such a claim.
Well ITC doesn't allow you to hit units your not engaged with and that is a decent representative of a lot of major events. Of course it doesn't cover the more numerous small scaled events.
ITC, as well as most other tournaments, just puts out a list of house rules. How they rule things might be interesting for a house rule discussion, but has very little impact on how the rules are actually written or intended to be played.
col_impact wrote: The Fight Sub-phase rules are clear that they only allocate wounds to models that are 'in combat' with the GMC.
While a Stomp attack might be able to collaterally generate hits on a unit that it is not in combat with, generating those hits does not change that affected unit to being 'in combat'.
Thus, Stomp attacks allocate no wounds to units that are not 'in combat' with the GMC.
You are being purposefully obtuse. It is obvious that the units not in combat will still be hit and people have given you proof and you still fail to see it. No one cares if the "sub-fight phase" has no way to allocate wounds to those other units. Examples like vector strike which damage during the movement phase have been give. That also has no wound allocation method in that phase.
I am simply following the rules that the BRB lays before me. If you want to actually counter my argument you are going to have to provide alternate rules for Wound Allocation than the rules that I have general permission to follow (the Fight Sub-phase rules).
If you have been making up rules in the way that you play Stomp, that is fine. Simply mark your proposed house rule alternative as HYWPI. We are focusing on RAW in this discussion.
So skipping over the vector strike example again are ya? You keep doing that. Every time someone makes a point you cannot address, you just ignore it and tell the other person they are wrong.
I addressed Vector strike some time ago in the thread.
Spoiler:
Both of those rules point to explicit permission for Wound Allocation to happen. Wound Allocation rules exist in 2 places in the BRB - in the context of the Shooting Sequence and in the context of the Fight Sub-phase. So the rules give explicit permission to access one of those sections directly to do Wound Allocation. The player is not explicitly told which of the two Wound Allocation rules to use. The Psychic phase rules indicate that it models itself after shooting so they very strongly 'hint' to use the Wound Allocation rules in the Shooting Sequence and Vector Strike/Random Allocation similarly 'hints' to use the Wound Allocation in the Shooting Sequence.
Ok gotcha. So how about you mark YOUR post a HYWPI as you are now agreeing that psychic and vector strikes do not actually say but only "strongly hint". Who is making up rules now?
col_impact wrote: The Fight Sub-phase rules are clear that they only allocate wounds to models that are 'in combat' with the GMC.
While a Stomp attack might be able to collaterally generate hits on a unit that it is not in combat with, generating those hits does not change that affected unit to being 'in combat'.
Thus, Stomp attacks allocate no wounds to units that are not 'in combat' with the GMC.
You are being purposefully obtuse. It is obvious that the units not in combat will still be hit and people have given you proof and you still fail to see it. No one cares if the "sub-fight phase" has no way to allocate wounds to those other units. Examples like vector strike which damage during the movement phase have been give. That also has no wound allocation method in that phase.
I am simply following the rules that the BRB lays before me. If you want to actually counter my argument you are going to have to provide alternate rules for Wound Allocation than the rules that I have general permission to follow (the Fight Sub-phase rules).
If you have been making up rules in the way that you play Stomp, that is fine. Simply mark your proposed house rule alternative as HYWPI. We are focusing on RAW in this discussion.
So skipping over the vector strike example again are ya? You keep doing that. Every time someone makes a point you cannot address, you just ignore it and tell the other person they are wrong.
I addressed Vector strike some time ago in the thread.
Spoiler:
Both of those rules point to explicit permission for Wound Allocation to happen. Wound Allocation rules exist in 2 places in the BRB - in the context of the Shooting Sequence and in the context of the Fight Sub-phase. So the rules give explicit permission to access one of those sections directly to do Wound Allocation. The player is not explicitly told which of the two Wound Allocation rules to use. The Psychic phase rules indicate that it models itself after shooting so they very strongly 'hint' to use the Wound Allocation rules in the Shooting Sequence and Vector Strike/Random Allocation similarly 'hints' to use the Wound Allocation in the Shooting Sequence.
Ok gotcha. So how about you mark YOUR post a HYWPI as you are now agreeing that psychic and vector strikes do not actually say but only "strongly hint". Who is making up rules now?
I am not making up any rules. Psychic and Vector strikes have EXPLICIT permission to access the Wound Allocation in the sections of the book that provide rules for Wound Allocation (Shooting phase and Fight Sub-phase). The player is only left to his own devices sorting out which of those will actually make sense to implement (and it actually winds up being a no-brainer sorting out which to use), but permission to use those rules has been granted.
So it doesn't happen when another unit does not Charge? Such as the turn following the last unit Charged?
What do you mean?
The unit still charged in the previous turn, and Multiple Combats doesn't dictate that the charge must have occurred in the current turn.
And your point? It did not happen in the subsequent turns, so they must not be multiple Combats. But they do fit the first requirement.
vipoid wrote:
Charistoph wrote: An exhaustive list would be one that gave no leeway, such as "are only considered during x events".
Which is exactly what this is. It gives you exactly 2 scenarios when the rules for Multiple Combats apply. You have no permission whatsoever to fabricate additional ones.
Stomp gives the permission. I have no permission to deny it when another, more advanced rule comes along to change it.
The only practicable solution is that Stomp overrides this conflict due to its ability to involve others in the Fight than what are Engaged, unless you can point out how the Stomp cannot affect those unEngaged with the Stomper.
Nope, sorry, that's far from the only practical solution.
If you want to house rule it that way in your group, fine. Just don't pretend that doing so is somehow following the rules.
It is the only practical solution that considers all aspects of the points brought up so far. It accounts for Wound Allocation in the Fight Sub-Phase. It accounts for how hits are handled with blast markers. It accounts for how multiple units can be Wounded and have those Wounds applied to them in an orderly fashion.
The other alternative would be to treat Stomps and Flamers use no Wound Allocation and only apply to what is covered (a possibility, I grant, but requires Wounding and Saving rules to take its Special Attack aspect in to account, namely the difference in how Cover Saves are allowed). Col_impact's blind assertion is impossible, though.
col_impact wrote:The Fight Sub-phase rules are clear that they only allocate wounds to models that are 'in combat' with the GMC.
Fight Sub-Phase rules under the same string also are clear that Attacks can only be used against those you are Engaged with, too. So, unless you can show me where Stomp Attacks are so restricted, this dies on the vine due to a fail of proper processing.
col_impact wrote:While a Stomp attack might be able to collaterally generate hits on a unit that it is not in combat with, generating those hits does not change that affected unit to being 'in combat'.
Thus, Stomp attacks allocate no wounds to units that are not 'in combat' with the GMC.
Again, I disagree. By simply allocating Attacks to a unit you are not Engaged with, you break the string which follows the same requirements.
So, either you must use the Multiple Combat Rules in order to continue using the Fight Sub-Phase Wound Allocation rules, OR you must concede that they do not use any normal system like any other out-of-phase Wounding system like the Vector Strike.
Charistophe, you are far too creative with your RAW reasoning, to the point where you adding permissions out of the blue.
Just because Stomps allow you to generate hits on a unit out of combat, that does not give you permission to re-write the wound allocation rules in the Fight Sub-phase to allow wounds on units out of combat.
The chips fall where they may and you must strictly adhere exactly to the permissions you have.
Following strict RAW, Stomp attacks can generate hits on a unit out of combat, but the wound allocation you have permission to follow throws out the wounds on those units that you are not in combat with.
col_impact wrote: Charistophe, you are far too creative with your RAW reasoning, to the point where you adding permissions out of the blue.
Just because Stomps allow you to generate hits on a unit out of combat, that does not give you permission to re-write the wound allocation rules in the Fight Sub-phase to allow wounds on units out of combat.
The chips fall where they may and you must strictly adhere exactly to the permissions you have.
Following strict RAW, Stomp attacks can generate hits on a unit out of combat, but the wound allocation you have permission to follow throws out the wounds on those units that you are not in combat with.
I'm being creative? With your method, you have to ignore numerous paths in order to reach your point, not the least of which is the fact that the Attacks are also to be against those same units it can allocate Wounds to.
I'm being creative? With your method, you have to ignore numerous paths in order to reach your point, not the least of which is the fact that the Attacks are also to be against those same units it can allocate Wounds to.
You strictly follow the paths you are provided. The Stomp rules overrule the normal manner in which hits are generated but they do not overrule Wound allocation.
I'm being creative? With your method, you have to ignore numerous paths in order to reach your point, not the least of which is the fact that the Attacks are also to be against those same units it can allocate Wounds to.
You strictly follow the paths you are provided. The Stomp rules overrule the normal manner in which hits are generated but they do not overrule Wound allocation.
And I covered that, too, but I guess you weren't paying attention.
And your point? It did not happen in the subsequent turns, so they must not be multiple Combats.
Please quote where it says the charge must occur each turn for it to still count as a multiple combat.
Spoiler:
These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units, or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat.
According to these sentences it happens when a Charge occurs. No Charge occurs in the subsequent turns unless more come Charging in, so I guess that does not count?
Stomp gives the permission. I have no permission to deny it when another, more advanced rule comes along to change it.
Nope, sorry. You need specific permission to override it, which Stomp doesn't give you.
Stomp give permission by giving permission to attack units not initially involved in the Combat, at which point they are now "involved". Unless we can provide evidence that the Stomp does not use Wound Allocation at all (which I would actually prefer).
It is the only practical solution that considers all aspects of the points brought up so far.
Let me put it a different way, if you're going with this argument then you're admitting it's RAI and not RAW
No, it is using the RAW to find a practicable solution. Not everything in this game is straightforward, and there is even more not even addressed.
What we do have addressed is how Combat is resolved when multiple units are involved, and Stomp can involve multiple units during Combat. We do not have any Wounding directions in the Stomp rules presented so far (Profile is insufficient and incomplete), but we do for the Phase it is used in. So, unless we can find directions for Hits which do not have a specified Wounding process, that is the RAW we are stuck using.
And your point? It did not happen in the subsequent turns, so they must not be multiple Combats.
Please quote where it says the charge must occur each turn for it to still count as a multiple combat.
Spoiler:
These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units, or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat.
According to these sentences it happens when a Charge occurs. No Charge occurs in the subsequent turns unless more come Charging in, so I guess that does not count? Again, why? Combats (multiple or otherwise) are ongoing, and the charges that initiated them still happened in the previous turn(s). You are inserting arbitrary time limits where none exist in the rules.
And I still don't see an "only" in that sentence. Why does there need to be? The "or" fulfils the same purpose (along with the lack of any "etc." or anything else to indicate that other scenarios can result in a multiple combat). It gives you exactly 2 scenarios where multiple combats apply, and no permission to use the rules in any other scenarios.
Stomp gives the permission. I have no permission to deny it when another, more advanced rule comes along to change it.
Nope, sorry. You need specific permission to override it, which Stomp doesn't give you.
Stomp give permission by giving permission to attack units not initially involved in the Combat, Actually, it gives no such permission. It's technically possible to do so, but this possibility isn't even acknowledged in the rules - and they certainly don't give you any special permission to do so. Moreover, you definitely aren't given permission to override any other rules of the combat phase - including the restrictions of wounding models outside of combat. at which point they are now "involved". So, do they count as being engaged? Can they can make melee attacks against the knight? Not that I accept this anyway, but you're opening a real can of worms with this. Unless we can provide evidence that the Stomp does not use Wound Allocation at all (which I would actually prefer).
It is the only practical solution that considers all aspects of the points brought up so far.
Let me put it a different way, if you're going with this argument then you're admitting it's RAI and not RAW
No, it is using the RAW to find a practicable solution. But you're not finding a RAW solution - that's the point. You're just making up whatever permissions you like and claiming them as RAW.Moreover, it woud be just as practical (if not more so) to instead say that the Knight can't place the templates on models outside of combat. No, it isn't RAW, but neither is what you're saying. Not everything in this game is straightforward, and there is even more not even addressed.
What we do have addressed is how Combat is resolved when multiple units are involved, and Stomp can involve multiple units during Combat. We do not have any Wounding directions in the Stomp rules presented so far (Profile is insufficient and incomplete), but we do for the Phase it is used in. So, unless we can find directions for Hits which do not have a specified Wounding process, that is the RAW we are stuck using. Sorry, no. You can't just fill in gaps in the rules with whatever you like, and then pass it off as RAW.
EDIT: Actually, I've just been rereading the rules for multiple combats, and I'm not sure they'd help your case even if we did apply them. Specifically:
Spoiler:
In multiple combats, during a model’s Initiative step, the following extra rules apply:
• A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit.
• A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect).
Put simply, the IK does not have permission to direct attacks against units it isn't engaged with, and any wounds against units it hasn't directed attacks against are lost.
And your point? It did not happen in the subsequent turns, so they must not be multiple Combats.
Please quote where it says the charge must occur each turn for it to still count as a multiple combat.
Spoiler:
These occur when one unit charges two or more enemy units, or when a unit charges into an ongoing combat.
According to these sentences it happens when a Charge occurs. No Charge occurs in the subsequent turns unless more come Charging in, so I guess that does not count?
Again, why? Combats (multiple or otherwise) are ongoing, and the charges that initiated them still happened in the previous turn(s). You are inserting arbitrary time limits where none exist in the rules.
And you are not setting other arbitrary limits? The sentence states literally "when", not "after", not "starting with", just "when".
Why does there need to be? The "or" fulfils the same purpose (along with the lack of any "etc." or anything else to indicate that other scenarios can result in a multiple combat). It gives you exactly 2 scenarios where multiple combats apply, and no permission to use the rules in any other scenarios.
You claim that it is an exhaustive list, another way of saying no other way is available, but since "only" is not listed (nor any similar language), it is not limited to just this instance and other possibilities may occur. Therefore, not exhaustive. The rulebook does not make this claim, why do you, unless you choose?
Stomp give permission by giving permission to attack units not initially involved in the Combat,
Actually, it gives no such permission. It's technically possible to do so, but this possibility isn't even acknowledged in the rules. You certainly aren't given permission to override any other rules of the combat phase - including the restrictions of wounding models outside of combat.
By not requiring the Blast Marker to be placed only on Engaged models, and indeed by allowing it to be placed anywhere within 3" of the previous, it gives permission to attack other units. By attacking other units, they become involved. By being involved, they are included in the combat and can be Wounded, even when not Engaged.
So, do they count as being engaged? Can they can make melee attacks against the knight? You're opening a real can of worms there.
I never said Engaged, just "involved" in the Combat. Wounds can be Allocated to models not Engaged in the Fight Sub-Phase, so long as Attacks were allocated to the units in question. It is the second bullet of Wound Allocation for both single Combat and Multiple Combat. The base rules for the Fight Sub-Phase are for single Combat, so do not take in to account Attacks being allocated to any unit but the sole one the Attacker is Engaged with. Stomp overrides this capacity by allowing Attacks to be placed on unEngaged units, therefore bypassing this restriction.
No, it is using the RAW to find a practicable solution.
But you're not finding a RAW solution - that's the point. You're just making up whatever permissions you like and claiming them as RAW.Moreover, it woud be just as practical (if not more so) to instead say that the Knight can't place the templates on models outside of combat. No, it isn't RAW, but neither is what you're saying.
The rules are there, I have quoted them and referenced them. Just because you do not like where it goes does not mean the rules are not there. You want to see made up rules, review how Super-Heavies do their targeting of multiple units, there is absolutely nothing on it. Anything on it is a House Rule. This situation, at least has rules that can address it, so long as you do not self-limit yourself.
Charistoph wrote: What we do have addressed is how Combat is resolved when multiple units are involved, and Stomp can involve multiple units during Combat. We do not have any Wounding directions in the Stomp rules presented so far (Profile is insufficient and incomplete), but we do for the Phase it is used in. So, unless we can find directions for Hits which do not have a specified Wounding process, that is the RAW we are stuck using.
Sorry, no. You don't get to just say "well these rules are close enough, so we'll use them." You can't just fill in gaps in the rules with whatever you like, and then pass it off as RAW.
Not quite. This is not like Super-Heavy targeting which has nothing to address it with. We have Attacks in the Fight Sub-Phase. These Attacks are not noted as using another Wound Allocation process unless we can find a rule on hitting models directly (some help here would be nice if any can find it) like Random Allocation references the Shooting Sequence's for Vector Strike. These Attacks can involve multiple units at which point multiple units are involved the rules for multiple combat are invoked as we have no other outlet to pursue and we can use this one. Attacks are allocated and Wounds are allocated appropriately.
And you are not setting other arbitrary limits? The sentence states literally "when", not "after", not "starting with", just "when".
By that line of reasoning, a multiple combat can never take place as the resolution will always take place after a charge, and at that point (according to you) it's apparently not a multiple combat any more.
You claim that it is an exhaustive list, another way of saying no other way is available, but since "only" is not listed (nor any similar language), it is not limited to just this instance and other possibilities may occur. Therefore, not exhaustive. The rulebook does not make this claim, why do you, unless you choose?
No, sorry, that isn't how English works. You are given exactly two scenarios. In order for the list to be non-exhaustive, you need something to indicate such. Examples being:
- Use of the word "usually" (or a similar word) - i.e. if Multiple Combats said "This will usually occur when..." or "These will most commonly occur when..." or somesuch.
- Ending with "ect." or any other word or phrase that indicates there are further possible examples which, for whatever reason, aren't being included (e.g. somesuch as above).
- Specifically saying that it's a non-exhaustive list.
etc.
Since none of these are present, we must assume that it is an exhaustive list.
By not requiring the Blast Marker to be placed only on Engaged models, and indeed by allowing it to be placed anywhere within 3" of the previous, it gives permission to attack other units.
It also doesn't say that I can't stomp enemy models by hitting them with a sledgehammer, so I guess that's legal too.
This is a permissive ruleset, not a restrictive one. Stomp gives no specific permission to attack units outside of combat. It is possible to place the templates over unengaged units, but the rules give no permission to do this.
It's the difference between being specifically allowed to do something, and not being able to find any rules actually forbidding it.
Charistoph wrote: By being involved, they are included in the combat and can be Wounded, even when not Engaged.
Nope. You're given no permission to override the rules of the fight subphase in which these attacks are occuring.
And, as above, not finding specific rules against something is not the same as being granted permission to do it.
I never said Engaged, just "involved" in the Combat.
"Involved" is a useless term because it has no in-game meaning. Either they are engaged (and can attack and have attacks and wounds allocated to them), or they're not (and so can't suffer wounds from the combat). Please come back when you've decided what the stomped unit counts as.
Charistoph wrote: Wounds can be Allocated to models not Engaged in the Fight Sub-Phase, so long as Attacks were allocated to the units in question.
Nope, that's a violation of the rules.
Charistoph wrote: It is the second bullet of Wound Allocation for both single Combat and Multiple Combat.
And you do not have permission to allocate attacks against models you're not in base-contact with or engaged to.
Charistoph wrote: The base rules for the Fight Sub-Phase are for single Combat, so do not take in to account Attacks being allocated to any unit but the sole one the Attacker is Engaged with. Stomp overrides this capacity by allowing Attacks to be placed on unEngaged units, therefore bypassing this restriction.
Nope, because you're given no special permission to do that, let alone special permission to wound units outside of combat. 40k is a permissive ruleset - you need specific permission to override rules, which Stomp simply doesn't give you.
The rules are there, I have quoted them and referenced them.
You referenced rules and then proceeded to break them. Furthermore, the permissions you keep quoting for stomp do not exist - you are literally making them up.
Charistoph wrote: Just because you do not like where it goes does not mean the rules are not there.
I think you're the one who needs to read this, because you're fabricating rules to try and make stomping unengaged units legal.
Not quite. This is not like Super-Heavy targeting which has nothing to address it with. We have Attacks in the Fight Sub-Phase. These Attacks are not noted as using another Wound Allocation process unless we can find a rule on hitting models directly (some help here would be nice if any can find it) like Random Allocation references the Shooting Sequence's for Vector Strike. These Attacks can involve multiple units at which point multiple units are involved the rules for multiple combat are invoked as we have no other outlet to pursue and we can use this one. Attacks are allocated and Wounds are allocated appropriately.
But that's the point - even if you use the multiple combats rule, you're still breaking those rules to make this work.
And you are not setting other arbitrary limits? The sentence states literally "when", not "after", not "starting with", just "when".
By that line of reasoning, a multiple combat can never take place as the resolution will always take place after a charge, and at that point (according to you) it's apparently not a multiple combat any more.
You claim that it is an exhaustive list, another way of saying no other way is available, but since "only" is not listed (nor any similar language), it is not limited to just this instance and other possibilities may occur. Therefore, not exhaustive. The rulebook does not make this claim, why do you, unless you choose?
No, sorry, that isn't how English works. You are given exactly two scenarios. In order for the list to be non-exhaustive, you need something to indicate such. Examples being:
- Use of the word "usually" (or a similar word) - i.e. if Multiple Combats said "This will usually occur when..." or "These will most commonly occur when..." or somesuch.
- Ending with "ect." or any other word or phrase that indicates there are further possible examples which, for whatever reason, aren't being included (e.g. somesuch as above).
- Specifically saying that it's a non-exhaustive list.
etc.
Since none of these are present, we must assume that it is an exhaustive list.
Okay, so you say that we must "assume that it is an exhaustive list", yet say it is RAW to treat it as an exhaustive list?
Googling the adjective and noun indicates, "British English: exhaustive If you describe a study, search, or list as exhaustive, you mean that it is very thorough and complete." No statement of completion, and finding another situation which can "involve" other units counts as exhaustive? But hey, we can count the To-Hit and To-Wound process in the Shooting Sequence as exhaustive from that paradigm, too, except they aren't.
By not requiring the Blast Marker to be placed only on Engaged models, and indeed by allowing it to be placed anywhere within 3" of the previous, it gives permission to attack other units.
It also doesn't say that I can't stomp enemy models by hitting them with a sledgehammer, so I guess that's legal too.
This is a permissive ruleset, not a restrictive one. Stomp gives no specific permission to attack units outside of combat. It is possible to place the templates over unengaged units, but the rules give no permission to do this.
It's the difference between being specifically allowed to do something, and not being able to find any rules actually forbidding it.
Not quite. Permission is granted due to the allowance of placement involved with no further restrictions and the rules regarding Blast Markers. You are assuming a lack of permission when permission was already granted.
Charistoph wrote: By being involved, they are included in the combat and can be Wounded, even when not Engaged.
Nope. You're given no permission to override the rules of the fight subphase in which these attacks are occuring.
And, as above, not finding specific rules against something is not the same as being granted permission to do it.
Fine, then show the restriction of placing it on models on Engaged units instead of just placing it anywhere, and then counter the Stomp's rule that these same units the Blast Marker covers are hit, and these hits do not count as Attacks in the Fight Sub-Phase and ignore the rules from there.
I never said Engaged, just "involved" in the Combat.
"Involved" is a useless term because it has no in-game meaning. Either they are engaged (and can attack and have attacks and wounds allocated to them), or they're not (and so can't suffer wounds from the combat). Please come back when you've decided what the stomped unit counts as.
"Involved" is a general term which can be used from the standard English definition without further usage to refine it. Demonstrate how a unit that is hit by an Attack is not "involved".
Charistoph wrote: Wounds can be Allocated to models not Engaged in the Fight Sub-Phase, so long as Attacks were allocated to the units in question.
Nope, that's a violation of the rules.
Quite incorrect. Reread the second bullet for both the standard Fight Sub-Phase rules and Multiple Combat rules regarding Wound Allocation. For a standard Attack string against a single unit, the Wounds are allocated to Unengaged models if no other models in the unit are Engaged. This is under the assumption that the unit in question is Engaged.
For Multiple Combat, Attacks are first parceled out to Engaged units (which Stomp Attacks bypass by their nature of generating hits). Wounds generated for these Attacks may only be Allocated to the units the Attacks were allocated to and may not be parceled out to other units that were Attacked. This Allocation may continue to be allocated to models that are not Engaged.
Charistoph wrote: It is the second bullet of Wound Allocation for both single Combat and Multiple Combat.
And you do not have permission to allocate attacks against models you're not in base-contact with or engaged to.
And I never said as such. The first bullet is forbidding Attacks against UNITs you are not Engaged with, which the Stomp Attack rules bypass just like the Blast rules bypass a whole host of rules for the Shooting Sequence such as hitting Engaged units or units in your army.
Charistoph wrote: The base rules for the Fight Sub-Phase are for single Combat, so do not take in to account Attacks being allocated to any unit but the sole one the Attacker is Engaged with. Stomp overrides this capacity by allowing Attacks to be placed on unEngaged units, therefore bypassing this restriction.
Nope, because you're given no special permission to do that, let alone special permission to wound units outside of combat. 40k is a permissive ruleset - you need specific permission to override rules, which Stomp simply doesn't give you.
Show the requirement in the Stomp's rules. I can place it ANYWHERE within 3" of the previous Marker, and those units get hit. No other restriction at this point exists, and one has been bypassing the standard Attack allocation rules at the point the Stomp rules are initiated.
The rules are there, I have quoted them and referenced them.
You referenced rules and then proceeded to break them. Furthermore, the permissions you keep quoting for stomp do not exist - you are literally making them up.
How do Stomp Attacks generate hits? Answer that and show which I have broken.
Charistoph wrote: Just because you do not like where it goes does not mean the rules are not there.
I think you're the one who needs to read this, because you're fabricating rules to try and make stomping unengaged units legal.
Placing a Marker anywhere and generating hits against those units is fabricating rules? Show the prohibition against Stomping doing so.
Not quite. This is not like Super-Heavy targeting which has nothing to address it with. We have Attacks in the Fight Sub-Phase. These Attacks are not noted as using another Wound Allocation process unless we can find a rule on hitting models directly (some help here would be nice if any can find it) like Random Allocation references the Shooting Sequence's for Vector Strike. These Attacks can involve multiple units at which point multiple units are involved the rules for multiple combat are invoked as we have no other outlet to pursue and we can use this one. Attacks are allocated and Wounds are allocated appropriately.
But that's the point - even if you use the multiple combats rule, you're still breaking those rules to make this work.
Just because it is possible for Stomp attacks to generate hits on units that are not in combat with the GMC, that does not give permission to re-write the rules for Wound allocation. The Wound allocation rules only allow wounds to be allocated to units in combat with the GMC. Changing the Wound allocation rules without a specific override from the Stomp rules is house ruling and not doing things by RAW.
If you persist in insisting that you can allocate Wounds to units not in combat with the GMC, then simply mark your argument HYWPI because you are adding permissions to the Wound allocation rules that do not exist in the rules. The Stomp rules provide no specific override to the Wound allocation rules - they don't even mention Wound allocation.
I will stick with a RAW argument for myself and mark my argument RAW. It is exceedingly clear in the rules that wounds can only be allocated to units in combat with the GMC and nothing in the Stomp rules overrides that.
And you are not setting other arbitrary limits? The sentence states literally "when", not "after", not "starting with", just "when".
By that line of reasoning, a multiple combat can never take place as the resolution will always take place after a charge, and at that point (according to you) it's apparently not a multiple combat any more.
You claim that it is an exhaustive list, another way of saying no other way is available, but since "only" is not listed (nor any similar language), it is not limited to just this instance and other possibilities may occur. Therefore, not exhaustive. The rulebook does not make this claim, why do you, unless you choose?
No, sorry, that isn't how English works. You are given exactly two scenarios. In order for the list to be non-exhaustive, you need something to indicate such. Examples being:
- Use of the word "usually" (or a similar word) - i.e. if Multiple Combats said "This will usually occur when..." or "These will most commonly occur when..." or somesuch.
- Ending with "ect." or any other word or phrase that indicates there are further possible examples which, for whatever reason, aren't being included (e.g. somesuch as above).
- Specifically saying that it's a non-exhaustive list.
etc.
Since none of these are present, we must assume that it is an exhaustive list.
Okay, so you say that we must "assume that it is an exhaustive list", yet say it is RAW to treat it as an exhaustive list?
Yes - because you have no permission to do otherwise. There is no leeway for similar situations, alternate situations or any such. If you insert any, then you are changing the rules.
Googling the adjective and noun indicates, "British English: exhaustive If you describe a study, search, or list as exhaustive, you mean that it is very thorough and complete." No statement of completion, and finding another situation which can "involve" other units counts as exhaustive? But hey, we can count the To-Hit and To-Wound process in the Shooting Sequence as exhaustive from that paradigm, too, except they aren't.
By not requiring the Blast Marker to be placed only on Engaged models, and indeed by allowing it to be placed anywhere within 3" of the previous, it gives permission to attack other units.
It also doesn't say that I can't stomp enemy models by hitting them with a sledgehammer, so I guess that's legal too.
This is a permissive ruleset, not a restrictive one. Stomp gives no specific permission to attack units outside of combat. It is possible to place the templates over unengaged units, but the rules give no permission to do this.
It's the difference between being specifically allowed to do something, and not being able to find any rules actually forbidding it.
Not quite. Permission is granted due to the allowance of placement involved with no further restrictions and the rules regarding Blast Markers. You are assuming a lack of permission when permission was already granted.
No, that isn't the same at all. Permission is when the ruleset specifically grants you permission to do something. You are assuming permission where none exist.
Charistoph wrote: By being involved, they are included in the combat and can be Wounded, even when not Engaged.
Nope. You're given no permission to override the rules of the fight subphase in which these attacks are occuring.
And, as above, not finding specific rules against something is not the same as being granted permission to do it.
Fine, then show the restriction of placing it on models on Engaged units instead of just placing it anywhere, and then counter the Stomp's rule that these same units the Blast Marker covers are hit, and these hits do not count as Attacks in the Fight Sub-Phase and ignore the rules from there. Why? I haven't claimed this.
That said, it might depend on how you interpret "attack". e.g. in the multiple combat rules, you're told that if you're in combat with one unit, you have to attack that unit. Or, if you're in combat with multiple units, you can split your attacks between them. This could easily apply to Stomp attacks - meaning you'd have to place the template over the unit you're attacking.
Provide evidence of your argument. You first. You've yet to provide a shred of evidence to support your point. All you've done so far is fabricate rules.
I never said Engaged, just "involved" in the Combat.
"Involved" is a useless term because it has no in-game meaning. Either they are engaged (and can attack and have attacks and wounds allocated to them), or they're not (and so can't suffer wounds from the combat). Please come back when you've decided what the stomped unit counts as.
"Involved" is a general term which can be used from the standard English definition without further usage to refine it. Demonstrate how a unit that is hit by an Attack is not "involved".
You've made this claim, ergo the burden of proof is on you to find the evidence in the rules to prove it. It is not up to me to disprove your increasingly ludicrous claims.
Charistoph wrote: Wounds can be Allocated to models not Engaged in the Fight Sub-Phase, so long as Attacks were allocated to the units in question.
Nope, that's a violation of the rules.
Quite incorrect. Reread the second bullet for both the standard Fight Sub-Phase rules and Multiple Combat rules regarding Wound Allocation. For a standard Attack string against a single unit, the Wounds are allocated to Unengaged models if no other models in the unit are Engaged. This is under the assumption that the unit in question is Engaged.
For Multiple Combat, Attacks are first parceled out to Engaged units (which Stomp Attacks bypass by their nature of generating hits). Wounds generated for these Attacks may only be Allocated to the units the Attacks were allocated to and may not be parceled out to other units that were Attacked. This Allocation may continue to be allocated to models that are not Engaged.
I don't even know what you're talking about any more. You seem to have moved out of the rulebook entirely.
Charistoph wrote: It is the second bullet of Wound Allocation for both single Combat and Multiple Combat.
And you do not have permission to allocate attacks against models you're not in base-contact with or engaged to.
And I never said as such. The first bullet is forbidding Attacks against UNITs you are not Engaged with, which the Stomp Attack rules bypass just like the Blast rules bypass a whole host of rules for the Shooting Sequence such as hitting Engaged units or units in your army.
Irrelevant - the second point explicitly says that wounds can't be inflicted on a unit you didn't allocate attacks against - so any hits generated on such units are moot.
Charistoph wrote: The base rules for the Fight Sub-Phase are for single Combat, so do not take in to account Attacks being allocated to any unit but the sole one the Attacker is Engaged with. Stomp overrides this capacity by allowing Attacks to be placed on unEngaged units, therefore bypassing this restriction.
Nope, because you're given no special permission to do that, let alone special permission to wound units outside of combat. 40k is a permissive ruleset - you need specific permission to override rules, which Stomp simply doesn't give you.
Show the requirement in the Stomp's rules. I can place it ANYWHERE within 3" of the previous Marker, and those units get hit. No other restriction at this point exists, and one has been bypassing the standard Attack allocation rules at the point the Stomp rules are initiated.
40k is not a restrictive ruleset. I don't need to show you rules specifically forbidding something, you need to show me rules specifically permitting it.
The rules are there, I have quoted them and referenced them.
You referenced rules and then proceeded to break them. Furthermore, the permissions you keep quoting for stomp do not exist - you are literally making them up.
How do Stomp Attacks generate hits? Answer that and show which I have broken.
40k is not a restrictive ruleset. I don't need to show you rules specifically forbidding something, you need to show me rules specifically permitting it.
Charistoph wrote: Just because you do not like where it goes does not mean the rules are not there.
vipoid wrote: I think you're the one who needs to read this, because you're fabricating rules to try and make stomping unengaged units legal.
Charistoph wrote: Placing a Marker anywhere and generating hits against those units is fabricating rules? Show the prohibition against Stomping doing so.
40k is not a restrictive ruleset. I don't need to show you rules specifically forbidding something, you need to show me rules specifically permitting it.
Not quite. This is not like Super-Heavy targeting which has nothing to address it with. We have Attacks in the Fight Sub-Phase. These Attacks are not noted as using another Wound Allocation process unless we can find a rule on hitting models directly (some help here would be nice if any can find it) like Random Allocation references the Shooting Sequence's for Vector Strike. These Attacks can involve multiple units at which point multiple units are involved the rules for multiple combat are invoked as we have no other outlet to pursue and we can use this one. Attacks are allocated and Wounds are allocated appropriately.
But that's the point - even if you use the multiple combats rule, you're still breaking those rules to make this work.
Indeed I am not. Again, quote the relevance.
Well, for a start, there's this: "Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect)." Since Stomps are attacks, you'd have to direct them at one or more engaged units. Meaning wounds generated by those Stomp Attacks couldn't be transferred to unengaged units.
I seem to have buggered up the quotes at the end, so apologies for that.
Just because it is possible for Stomp attacks to generate hits on units that are not in combat with the GMC, that does not give permission to re-write the rules for Wound allocation. The Wound allocation rules only allow wounds to be allocated to units in combat with the GMC. Changing the Wound allocation rules without a specific override from the Stomp rules is house ruling and not doing things by RAW.
That is only required for single combats, not a situation involving two or more units hit. In order to even hit multiple units in the Fight Sub-Phase, it needs to be a Multiple Combat. Mutliple Combat works on a different allocation level, as I have pointed out.
col_impact wrote:If you persist in insisting that you can allocate Wounds to units not in combat with the GMC, then simply mark your argument HYWPI because you are adding permissions to the Wound allocation rules that do not exist in the rules. The Stomp rules provide no specific override to the Wound allocation rules - they don't even mention Wound allocation.
I have shown how they can using the rules.
Multiple Combat Wound Allocation does not require the units to be in Combat, only the Attacks are required to be directed to those in combat, a requirement not included in the Stomp Attack rules.
Spoiler:
A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit, even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect).
See how nothing is stated regarding Combat at all in this section?
col_impact wrote:I will stick with a RAW argument for myself and mark my argument RAW. It is exceedingly clear in the rules that wounds can only be allocated to units in combat with the GMC and nothing in the Stomp rules overrides that.
What RAW? You assume one thing, but do not follow it through both ways. If you allow Attacks to be directed at anything but unit(s) you are Engaged with in the Fight Sub-Phase, you do not follow standard Wound Allocation. Make up your mind.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Stomp unlike a normal blast shooting weapon, does not target units. Given this, how are you allocating wounds at all?
Technically speaking, targeting is not involved in the Fight Sub-Phase, Attacks are directed. In normal Fight scenarios, they can only be directed against units you are Engaged with. Stomp Attacks are different, though:
Spoiler:
A Stomp attack consists of D3 Stomps. To make the first Stomp, place a blast marker so that it is touching, but not over, the Super-heavy Walker model (or the Super-heavy Walker model’s base, if it has one). Each unit that has at least one model even partially under the marker is stomped. For each unit that is stomped, roll on the Stomp table (see right) to determine what happens to it. Each subsequent Stomp is made in the same manner as the first, except that the blast marker does not have to be placed touching the Super-heavy Walker. Instead, it must be placed so that it is at least partially within 3" of where the last blast marker was placed, and not over the Super-heavy Walker. This allows you to ‘Stomp forward’ into the enemy! Note that the Super-heavy Walker is not moved – we assume it stomps about but ends up more or less where it started.
They involve using a Blast Marker to direct Attacks made. From those Attacks, hits are made against models, and subsequently, units as described in General Principles:
Spoiler:
The templates and blast markers are used as a way of determining how many models have been hit by an attack that has an area of effect or blast radius. When an attack uses a template or blast marker, it will explain how the template is positioned, including any kind of scatter that might occur (scatter is discussed more completely next in this section). To work out the number of hits, you normally need to hold the template or blast marker over an enemy unit or a particular point on the battlefield, and then look underneath (or through, if using a transparent template) to see how many models lie partially or completely underneath. A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template or blast marker. Remember that a model’s base is counted as being part of the model itself, so all a template or blast marker has to do to cause a hit is to cover any part of the target’s base.
*No emphasis added.
The Stomp rules do not give us a method for Wounding only models hit in a unit to direct any resolution. There are no other rules to govern just models hit by an Attack in a unit, either. Closest is Random Allocation, but we are not directed to use those. Since it does not direct any other changes, we continue to use the pattern of the Phase we are in, which is to apply Wounds against models Engaged with the Stomper, and then the nearest to the Stomper from there. If Attacks are directed at multiple units, they follow the same pattern of Engaged first, nearest next, but only can have Wounds allocated to the units based on the successful Attacks directed against them.
There are only two possible arguments against this direction:
1) Stomp Attacks as Attacks in the Fight Sub-Phase cannot be directed against any unit not Engaged with the Stomper. -How the Stomp rules are written to determine hits indicate otherwise. They themselves carry no such restriction, and Melee Attacks cannot even have a chance to be directed at anything else but what the unit is Engaged with.
2) There are rules that govern when models are hit. -I'm wanting to find this one, as it would toss out the need to use the Fight Sub-Phase Wound Allocation rules. It would override the quoted section from General Principles. It would also change how Template Weapon Types are processed in normal shooting as well, since they, too, also just hit the models underneath.
The thing is though, Stomp doesn't specifically override the normal targetting of attacks, if you see what I mean. So, whilst the Stomp rules themselves place no restrictions on where the markers can be place, you're still be bound by the normal rules of only being able to direct attacks against engaged units. But, even this is weird because of how templates work, and what counts as 'directing' them.
It doesn't help that the RAI isn't clear either. it's possible that the designers intended for Stomps to be able to affect unengaged units, but equally possible that not only did they not intend that, they didn't even consider the possibility of such (hence why the rules make no mention of it).
Multiple Combat Wound Allocation does not require the units to be in Combat, only the Attacks are required to be directed to those in combat, a requirement not included in the Stomp Attack rules.
Spoiler:
A model that is in base contact with, or engaged with, more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling To Hit. Wounds from Attacks that have been directed against a unit in a multiple combat cannot be transferred to another unit , even if the original target unit is completely destroyed (in this case, any excess Wounds are simply discounted and have no further effect).
See how nothing is stated regarding Combat at all in this section?
Charistophe, it looks like you fail at reading. Please read carefully the rules that you post. You cannot participate in a RAW discussion without careful reading.
That rule mandates that you "split your attacks" for your GMC model between "those units" that you are "in base contact with, or engaged" (this requires of course the GMC to be in combat with "those units").
Each unit in "those units" at which you will "split your attacks" is further identified as a "unit in a multiple combat".
So, this rule has the unintended negative consequence for you. The rule debunks your argument and helps further cement my RAW argument. The rule mandates that the GMC split its attacks (direct its attacks) between "those units" that it is "in base contact with, or engaged with", (ie, in combat with) and mandates that the wounds generated from those attacks that have been directed at "those units" (that have been directed at a "a unit in a multiple combat") "cannot be transferred to another unit".
The rule just further reinforces that Stomps cannot wound models that the GMC is not in combat with.
