So I am starting an Astra Militarum army, and I had some general questions.

-Is Creed worth taking as your Warlord if I am just running a Infantry heavy list?
-Is there really any reason to play Militarum Tempestus over Astra Militarum?
-Why does there seem to be such a dislike of Taurox?
-I found a Baneblade at a garage sale and fixed the missing bits, can I use it in normal games now?
-With the new rules, can the Master of Ordnance fire his Orbital Bombardment every turn, rather than once per game?

 Paint Servitor wrote:
-Is Creed worth taking as your Warlord if I am just running a Infantry heavy list?

Not usually. Most of the time it's better to just get a second CCS.

-Is there really any reason to play Militarum Tempestus over Astra Militarum?

No. Their "codex" is a joke.

-Why does there seem to be such a dislike of Taurox?

Because it's a painfully ugly model and nobody wants the shame of having to admit they own one.

-I found a Baneblade at a garage sale and fixed the missing bits, can I use it in normal games now?

Yes.

-With the new rules, can the Master of Ordnance fire his Orbital Bombardment every turn, rather than once per game?

You've been able to use it every turn since 5th edition, if not earlier.

The Taurox isn't a mobile command vehicle meaning you can't give orders from it.

 Paint Servitor wrote:

-Is Creed worth taking as your Warlord if I am just running a Infantry heavy list?

If you are using the Emperor's Shield Company (has 170 guardsmen in the list) in the Cadian Supplement, then yes.

Thanks for all the help guys!

 Paint Servitor wrote:


So I am starting an Astra Militarum army, and I had some general questions.

-Is Creed worth taking as your Warlord if I am just running a Infantry heavy list?
-Is there really any reason to play Militarum Tempestus over Astra Militarum?
-Why does there seem to be such a dislike of Taurox?
-I found a Baneblade at a garage sale and fixed the missing bits, can I use it in normal games now?
-With the new rules, can the Master of Ordnance fire his Orbital Bombardment every turn, rather than once per game?

Welcome to the Guard, son! Grab your lasgun & flak jacket, we've got some Xenos to kill!

I know some have answered your questions already, but let me expand some if I may

-Creed is situationally useful but unless you're using the new infantry formation you're better served running a second Company Command Squad. One fun alternative is Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken, as he is actualy pretty beastly in close combat, though expensive, if you want to run just one CCS, Straken can be a nice surprisingly tough HQ model in your CCS.

-Not really. Tempestus Scions can deep strike in without having to pay for a flying transport to put them in (Valkyrie or Vendetta) but they're little more than Veteran Guardsman with Carapace built in and ever so sligtly better equipment on their standard line infantry and fewer options on the squad as a whole (No heavy weapon and only two special weapons versus three per squad on the veterans.). Stick with the guard and ally in Tempestus Scions if you want to try them.

-Mostly, the Taurox is kind of ugly model with only slightly better armor than an Ork Trukk. It's also not a command vehicle so you cannot issue orders if you have an officer embarked onboard, It's a cheaper (points wise) alternative to a Chimera, but the Chimera at least has AV:12 on the front and two weapons, one in the turret & one in the hull, plus the Chimera is a command vehicle as well.

-You can indeed field a Baneblade as your Lord of War slot. It's a pretty beastly tank. Just be sure you get the most up to date rules for it so you can refer to them while gaming & show your opponent if they have any questions.

-Yes, Master of Ordinance can Orbital Bombard every turn, provided he did not move. Also, no matter what, your shot will scatter at least some even if you roll a 'hit' on the scatter dice. Refer to the rules on MoO to see exactly how it works, but it is a fun option to run for sure.

Let me ask, what regiment are you planing on running, and do you have a theme you plan on using for your list (Beyond infantry heavy)?

If you want any help with your list or need any questions answered, please feel free to shoot me a PM and I'll try my best to help you out.

Best of luck, and take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

The guard has some good things to it.... It also has some terrible.... (Ogryns) commissar Yarrick is a fun character to run in either a blob or a unit of conscripts.... They won't retreat, you will Literally need a bucket to hold all the dice when you roll to hit, meat shields for everything else in your army, meat shields for Yarrick when your opponent tries to shoot him, and Yarrick is the most trolliest warlord to try to kill for the slay the warlord traits because he gets a reanimation roll.

When you play the imperial guard you play against long odds so either be smart or be reckless

 Paint Servitor wrote:


So I am starting an Astra Militarum army, and I had some general questions.

-Is Creed worth taking as your Warlord if I am just running a Infantry heavy list?
-Is there really any reason to play Militarum Tempestus over Astra Militarum?
-Why does there seem to be such a dislike of Taurox?
-I found a Baneblade at a garage sale and fixed the missing bits, can I use it in normal games now?
-With the new rules, can the Master of Ordnance fire his Orbital Bombardment every turn, rather than once per game?

Creed is worth taking if you take an infantry heavy army. Straken is actually one of my more successful choices when doing it but Creed is just fine.

I play Militarum Tempestus with IG Allies and also Astra Militarum plain. Militarum Tempestus on its own is a finesse army so it's not for the faint of heart. Most will find the Astra Militarum to be much easier to use. However Militarum Tempestus with IG allies has been serving me esceedingly well.

No one knows why people like or dislike things. Thats just humans for you. May as well as kwhy people dont like pancakes. They just do.

Baneblade can be used i nnormal games

Master of Ordinance can fire it every turn following his rules. Its not a very good upgrade but if you get to the END and i mean the END of list building and just cant FIND another use for the points? okay. Take him then.

My problem with the taurox is it doesn't really serve any purpose. The Chimera is pretty much better in every way and I believe one of the forge world books lets you take an AC turret

HoundsofDemos wrote:
My problem with the taurox is it doesn't really serve any purpose. The Chimera is pretty much better in every way and I believe one of the forge world books lets you take an AC turret

Taurtox, or Taurox Prime?

The Taurox Prime packs more firepower and is Fast. I have gotten considerable mileage from both realities.

The Prime seems decent though I think it's over costed. The normal one just doesn't do it for me. If it had the mobile command rule it be an ok choice but as it stands I think the 15 for the Chimera is worth it, Though I still think the the 10 point price increase GW did last time was unneeded especially since they nerfed it. Thankfully the Inquisition codex still gets the old version.

Yeah, the prime is comically expensive and limited.

At 20pta cheaper I'd maybe consider using one, but even a 65ptz chimera is a tough pill to swallow.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The Prime seems decent though I think it's over costed. The normal one just doesn't do it for me. If it had the mobile command rule it be an ok choice but as it stands I think the 15 for the Chimera is worth it, Though I still think the the 10 point price increase GW did last time was unneeded especially since they nerfed it. Thankfully the Inquisition codex still gets the old version.

Extensive use has taught me two things about the Taurox Prime.

1. The speed upgrade is super worth the points.
2. That firepower is mean.

I average 5 HITS a round with that thing on Infantry, wounding on 2's. there aren't many weapons that have that kind of range and pop AND can move. Its a deadly combination.

The hull can be breached but its range protects it from being deluged with lower end fire so the enemy ends up committing fair amount of resources to kill it and its speed sort of forces enemies to kill it. But by then the Tempestus are where they need to be.

The Ground Attack Formation for the Militarum Tempestus Twin-links you when you disembark which is like getting a free order for every embarked unit! On top of that, you have your normal orders. So all in all, it is potent for that reason as well.

i am impressed with the Taurox Primes performance. There is no arguing that it is a lighter vehicle but it also comes with the advantages you'd demand of one. it's like an Eldar Raider. A bit more than you wish you had to pay, but its ability to get you there and to offer enough offense offsets it.

This is my opinion after many battles with them.

My thoughts in the Taurox:

It's ugly...really ugly. It was unasked for. It fills no role or niche that the chimera cant do as well or better, and usually points itself out as the obvious weak spot in an armored list of otherwise solid AV12 or AV14 wall.

As for the Prime, similar problems. Very ugly, too expensive for what it does. 80pts base just doesnt work. It's got decent firepower and speed, but should probably be 20pts cheaper with each of its weapons upgrade options cut in price by half. Also needs Smoke Launchers as base wargear. The fact that its only available to Scion units and CCS's also limits the utility that being Fast might otherwise offer.

Basically they were half baked additions in terms of functionality, and the models are just really ugly and dont fit in with any other vehicle in the IG line visually.

"ugly"... and "unasked for"... those are actually arguments in your mind? I don't rememebr "asking" for Ghostkeels.

Hoboy.

You can get in them with anything you want. So Im not sure I even see that point.

I can say one thing: It's not cheap and you're not wrong there. But it delivers value and I guess unless you're using them to get places and still fire, you can't really appreciate it.

Last time I checked, side armor wasnt hard to get to on a Chimera by the way...so i am not too sure I'd waste time focusing on that advantage either.

Ugly is absolutley a thing. This is a game of toys, if something looks awful and doesnt match the aesthetic of the rest of thr model line, thats going to kill its interest. Much like the Medusa V CSM Possessed marine models that nobody bought or used.

As for Unasked for, the basic Taurox was Unasked for in the sense that the Taurox doesnt offer a meaningful new purpose that the Chinera wasnt already doing. If you wanted a transport with an autocannon, the Chimera had that option, and aside from that (which is a very secondary concern) it does the same thing the Chimera does. A venom offers capbilities that a Raider does not. A Razorback offers capabilities that a Rhino does not. A basic Taurox doesnt offer much in the way of substantial abilities that the Chimera does not already do.

A Prime does...but is really expensive, especially after kit, for what it does and what it carries. Other similarly priced transports get a lot more for such an investment.

Yes, you can get into a Prime with whatever you want, but not every unit can buy one or start in them, and playing chinese fire drill on the first turn is extremely problematic, as IG cannot buy them as FA units.

Side armor on a chimera is not impossible to get to, but this can be mitigated through deployment and maneuver to a good extent, and the frontal armor, especially on turns 1 and 2, matters a whole lot more.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ugly is absolutley a thing. .

Eh...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:


As for Unasked for, the basic Taurox was Unasked for in the sense that the Taurox doesnt offer a meaningful new purpose.

yet...faster...yet...more firepower...so....uh...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:


Side armor on a chimera is not impossible to get to, but this can be mitigated through deployment... .

Kay

Jancoran wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

As for Unasked for, the basic Taurox was Unasked for in the sense that the Taurox doesnt offer a meaningful new purpose.

yet...faster...yet...more firepower...so....uh...

I bolded the part you missed.

The part where it is not faster or has more firepower.

*Editing because quoting is hard apparently.

The Prime is faster and offers more firepwoer, but not the Basic Taurox, which is what i was referring to when I mentioned that.


EDIT: Thank you Blacksails

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Prime is faster and offers more firepwoer, but not the Basic Taurox, which is what i was referring to when I mentioned that.


EDIT: Thank you Blacksails

The basic Taurax has less fire power than the Chimera and the Chimera can get the same weapon, plus a secondary, has a better firing port, and I can issue orders out it. The basic Taurax sucks cause it has no place in the army.

The prime can only be taken by storm troopers who are themselves over costed. Seems to me like your throwing good money after bad.

The basic Tarox is only redeemed ever so slightly by being a few hairs cheaper than a Chimera. It's where the Chimera should be on the point scale, and the basic Taurox should be 40 points base in my opinion. Not even touching on the fact that it's just not an attractive looking model (to me) though the Victoria Miniatures half-track conversion kit has sorely tempted me to pick one up and make it into a resource truck kind of model. I just can't justify spending the money on it. The aesthetic is just off, and I can't reconcile the look with the rest of my Vostroyan guard and their tanks.

That said, I own three Chimeras, and no Tauroxes (Tauroxi?) if that tells you anything.

The Prime is,... well..., it's just not good. Three Tarox Primes, after upgrades, are pushing 300 points. They're overcosted to the point of hilarity to me, as I can get three Chimera transports for 195 points that all have smoke launchers and two weapons built in, plus the lasgun arrays, are command vehicles and are even amphibious. So they're not fast, that doesn't really matter, as the entire army isn't fast save for the hellhound variant tanks and flyers.

I already pay a 10 point tax on all my Blood Angels transports for being fast vehicles, which I don't mind doing as rhinos are cheap to begin with, and Razorbacks aren't *horrible* either, though I prefer to not run Razorbacks personally. At least both the Blood Angels Razorback and Rhino come with everything you need as part of the base package without needing to spend MORE points to give them what they need (Smoke Launchers, Search Light, etc).

Fast vehicles are pretty swanky though, I will admit that, but wheeled/tracked transports, be they standard or fast, need to be sub-70 points base, especially if no facing on it is higher than AV:11 or 12.

Just my thoughts, I hope in the next IG codex they address the cost issues of many (....all) of the tanks.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Couldn't agree more Red.

Blacksails:



Consider yourself Brofisted.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Another thing I will ding the Tarox is that its not a tank so it can't bully units around the table.

THe Taurox, aside from being fugly as hell, suffers from being overpriced. Hell, that is not to say that the Chimera or indeed all other Guard units are not overpriced (they really are) but the Taurox is special.

You see, it does exactly what the Chimera does, only it is a little cheaper and a lot worse. Those 10 points are costing you your Amphibious capacity (not much these days but nice to have when your opponent is using a river to guard his flank), the Lasgun arrays (once again not much but every little helps), the Command Vehicle ability (a really big decision maker when it comes to deciding on your CCS's pimpmobile) and most of all you also lose a point of frontal armour.
Now the Chimer'a armour is not exactly stellar at 12/10/10 it can be murdered by most basic infantry if they get flank shots (thanks again for the crappy HP mechanic G'dubs) but at least it has a fairly respectable front AV of 12. However the Taurox lacks this, having only AV11 on the front. Rhino's (the swanky transports for GW's favourite mary sues) at least get AV11 at the side too but nooooooo, not the Guard. AV11/10/10 thank you sir. And your Taurox costs 20 points more to boot.

Now there is an arguement for the Taurox Prime which has more firepower and can be faster faster. However this transport is not only limited to command sections and Storm Troops (woo. Not.) but it still lacks the Command Vehicle perk and costs a whopping 80 points to boot! If you want it to go fast you have to pay 10 points more, making it 90 points..... For a transport I would rather have a Chimera. Its dependable, rugged, well armed, has decent frontal armour and is all out better than the Taurox.
And it looks good too.

PS, take everything Jancoran says with a wee pinch of salt. I am sure we all remember the super kill all Infantry blob list of his.

 master of ordinance wrote:
THe Taurox, aside from being fugly as hell, suffers from being overpriced. Hell, that is not to say that the Chimera or indeed all other Guard units are not overpriced (they really are) but the Taurox is special.

You see, it does exactly what the Chimera does, only it is a little cheaper and a lot worse. Those 10 points are costing you your Amphibious capacity (not much these days but nice to have when your opponent is using a river to guard his flank), the Lasgun arrays (once again not much but every little helps), the Command Vehicle ability (a really big decision maker when it comes to deciding on your CCS's pimpmobile) and most of all you also lose a point of frontal armour.
Now the Chimer'a armour is not exactly stellar at 12/10/10 it can be murdered by most basic infantry if they get flank shots (thanks again for the crappy HP mechanic G'dubs) but at least it has a fairly respectable front AV of 12. However the Taurox lacks this, having only AV11 on the front. Rhino's (the swanky transports for GW's favourite mary sues) at least get AV11 at the side too but nooooooo, not the Guard. AV11/10/10 thank you sir. And your Taurox costs 20 points more to boot.

Now there is an arguement for the Taurox Prime which has more firepower and can be faster faster. However this transport is not only limited to command sections and Storm Troops (woo. Not.) but it still lacks the Command Vehicle perk and costs a whopping 80 points to boot! If you want it to go fast you have to pay 10 points more, making it 90 points..... For a transport I would rather have a Chimera. Its dependable, rugged, well armed, has decent frontal armour and is all out better than the Taurox.
And it looks good too.

PS, take everything Jancoran says with a wee pinch of salt. I am sure we all remember the super kill all Infantry blob list of his.

Exactly. Well said also.

Also, I 'ed at the last part.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I also agree with what Master has to say Red. Although I will say that I've had some success with the Tauraox, I ultimately prefer the good ol' Chimera

 War Kitten wrote:
I also agree with what Master has to say Red. Although I will say that I've had some success with the Tauraox, I ultimately prefer the good ol' Chimera

Oh yea War, it's not that the Taurox is shall we say 'bad' at being what it is. It's just the Chimera does the job better and with more benefits over the Taurox. (The basic one, not touching on the Taurox Prime, which IMO is kind of a joke.)

Like anything, it fills it's role like any other transport. It's just a less capable one compared to the other option available.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Thanks guys

I just wanted to drop by and mention one last thing: There are three changes that I want to see made to the Chimera in the new Codex:
1) The price drops by ten points
2) Autocannons are a free weapon choice and in the codex (helps prevent whiners complainingg about your Chimera having a FW weapon option when it is not from a FW list)
3) And most of all I want to see the side armour increased to 11. That way Marines are other basic infantry will no longer be able to murder my APC's when they get flank shots.

As someone who plays both Marines and Guard I would also like the side armor to be bumped up to 11. Half the time I'm scared to move my Chiemeras because they can be glanced to death by basic bolters. I'm also fine with a price drop, but the auto cannon I'm indifferent towards (I wouldn't mind getting it but I would usually just run the multi-laser anyway)

I kind of agree with you MoO, with one caveat.

If they leave the Chimera alone, it needs to have it's point cost reduced by 10 points, returning it to it's original point cost. No questions asked.

However, if they change the armor value of the sides from 10, to 11, then it needs to stay at it's present point cost, or if there is a reduction, reduce the cost of the tank by only 5 points.

That being said, I do also agree that there should be an Autocannon turret option on the Chimera by default. Make it a five point upgrade and call it a day. That way people who have the turret from FW can use them or people who want to convert one up can do so.

Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I'm fine with it dropping back to 55 but if you stay at 55 I'm not feeling the increase in armor. As a marine player I'm paying 55 for a razorback with HB, no fire points and 6 capacity. For 55 points to get a vehicle that has two weapons, 12 capacity, can give orders and fire points and independent las arrays seems and more armor than a rhino/Razorback seems two cheap

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm fine with it dropping back to 55 but if you stay at 55 I'm not feeling the increase in armor. As a marine player I'm paying 55 for a razorback with HB, no fire points and 6 capacity. For 55 points to get a vehicle that has two weapons, 12 capacity, can give orders and fire points and independent las arrays seems and more armor than a rhino/Razorback seems two cheap

And it is also transporting guys with a base line of 4 for their stats and 3+ saves.
Besides, we in the Guard really need a boost right now.

"And it is also transporting guys with a base line of 4 for their stats and 3+ saves. "

Don't kid yourself. This doesn't mean that much anymore. Power armor hasn't been this bad since 2nd. Don't let people list tailor to your list, and then laugh as all that AP 2 goodness hits guardsmen.

I don't think it's fair to balance a transport based on what might be in it. These days that is a complicated question due to allies

No thats a fair assessment. how many rhinos/Razorbacks/landraders do you see that have gaurdsmen popping out the back? None because if you play a marine army you aren't going to handicap yourself by brining gaurdsmen. Not to mention if a space marine transport blows up the marines inside typically do just fine.... The gaurdsmen however need to be cleaned up with a mop and bucket as the rest of the squad makes a hasty retreat....

Transports almost never explode anymore. It's all about hp scrubbing.

I cannot imagine running the Taurox Prime with the intention of using it as a transport.

It's a fast fire platform -- comparing it to a Chimera isn't productive. It's a lot more like a LS Typhoon or Ravager.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I cannot imagine running the Taurox Prime with the intention of using it as a transport.

It's a fast fire platform -- comparing it to a Chimera isn't productive. It's a lot more like a LS Typhoon or Ravager.

He's not wrong although I do use mine for transport. Obsec everywhere is very cool and you cannot ignore what the Taurox Prime does for your troops when disembarking. Safer than a deep Strike and way more flexible. Serves as terrain later as well!

If you're going to use Stormtroopers why wouldn't you go for the new Emperors Spear formation? You're practically guaranteed to get at least 2 in turn 2 especially if you bring MOF, you get no scatter deep strike basically anywhere on the board, and instead of wonky 11/10/10 craptracks you get Valkyries or Vendettas who go around smashing tanks after they're done dropping off their boyz.

the_scotsman wrote:
If you're going to use Stormtroopers why wouldn't you go for the new Emperors Spear formation? You're practically guaranteed to get at least 2 in turn 2 especially if you bring MOF, you get no scatter deep strike basically anywhere on the board, and instead of wonky 11/10/10 craptracks you get Valkyries or Vendettas who go around smashing tanks after they're done dropping off their boyz.

Well Deep Striking isn't that dangerous for Militarum Tempestus. They don't worry about terrain effects.

Also: the Orders for the Militarum Tempestus are the bomb. They really are what make the army worth playing. Have at least three Command Squads. Strong advice.

Also: air-cav is cool but way more expensive. waaaaay more. So it isn't that its not cool. Its just that I can already get 4 twin linked Lascannons in my army the way I do it now that dont start in reserve and can't be one shot'd. so for all kinds of reasons I prefer the Ground Attack Formation or CAD's.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I cannot imagine running the Taurox Prime with the intention of using it as a transport.

It's a fast fire platform -- comparing it to a Chimera isn't productive. It's a lot more like a LS Typhoon or Ravager.

Except the Typhoon and the Ravager both have more firepower and are skimmers and they can jink and they have a better BS and they still do not cost as much......

@the_scotsman:
Storm Troopers are, quite frankly, a joke. They cost as much as a Tactical Marine, bring less to the board than a basic Scout does and have crappy LD and overall stats and their gun has a terrible range and is still considered Rapid Fire., making it a useless weapon. At best they can make a semi reliable suicide unit for killing a unit of PA guys. If they can put enough wounds on them that is. Usually though they will die without ever performing any significant role. Do yourself a favour and hire on an Inquisitor with Acolyte henchmen - you can give Acolytes Power Armour and a Hellgun and they will only cost 5 points more than your Storm Trooper does. And they have the same stats and can be accompanied by a Jokero to improve them still further and a pair of Crusaders to act as the tanks and an Inquisitor to deal even more damage and buff their morale.
What would you rather have:
14 points for what is essentially a Veteran in Carapace with a Hellgun
or
19 points for what is essentially a Veteran in Power Armour with a Hellgun (or 15 if you want a bolter or 14 if you want a Lasgun or 13 if you want a Hellgun and Carapace) with the option to take multiple buffs and improvements

Your choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"And it is also transporting guys with a base line of 4 for their stats and 3+ saves. "

Don't kid yourself. This doesn't mean that much anymore. Power armor hasn't been this bad since 2nd. Don't let people list tailor to your list, and then laugh as all that AP 2 goodness hits guardsmen.

Well Martel:
A) Marines are generally a hell of a lot better than Guardsmen
B) Marines tend not to pay for their transports
C) Marines transports are far better than Guard ones anyway - they are immune to small arms and are cheap

All I want to see is the Chimera brought down to 55 points and given AV 12/11/10, as it really should be.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Except the Typhoon and the Ravager both have more firepower and are skimmers and they can jink and they have a better BS and they still do not cost as much......

Wrong again, bud, mostly...

1) They don't have much more firepower; and they generally have less range
2) They have exactly the same BS (BS4);
3) Jink is valid, you have to get your cover saves elsewhere
4) The Ravager can't fire all 3x weapons at full BS if it moves 12"; a LS only has 2HP
5) They aren't transports
6) They don't have Obsec
7) They don't reroll dangerous terrain
8) Costing: 3x DL Ravager - 125pts, ML/HB Land Speeder - 70pts, ML/AC Taurox Prime - 100pts

Don't get me wrong. Ravagers and Land Speeders aren't power units, neither is a Taurox Prime. But it stacks up ok against them in most respects. The only thing I feel that's really missing is Tank Shock.

Welcome to the Guard. Plenty of good advice above from all these guys.

Fun food for thought is the Chimera, with a turret heavy bolter, a hull heavy bolter, and a pintle mounted heavy stubber. I think someone on this website refers to it as the "dakka bus".

Guard is full of fun and useful variety, just find what matches your play style.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Except the Typhoon and the Ravager both have more firepower and are skimmers and they can jink and they have a better BS and they still do not cost as much......

Wrong again, bud, mostly...

1) They don't have much more firepower; and they generally have less range

The Taurox hardly has a decent range for its guns.

2) They have exactly the same BS (BS4);

The Prime is BS4? That is news to me although as I make a point of avoiding the worst units in my codex I have never used them.

3) Jink is valid, you have to get your cover saves elsewhere

Jink is a massive buff to any Skimmer unit

4) The Ravager can't fire all 3x weapons at full BS if it moves 12"; a LS only has 2HP

The Taurox Prime cannot fire all its weapons at full BS if it moves unless you pay the upgrade to make your already expensive vehicle fast

5) They aren't transports

Neither do they cost as much as a tank whilst having the firepower and armour of an APC

6) They don't have Obsec

Obsec is not really an issue in 7th seeing as all units can claim objectives. Obsec just lets you 'steal' an objective from a none obsec enemy unit.

7) They don't reroll dangerous terrain

No, they just ignore all terrain that they move over because, you know, Skimmer's. Of course if you choose to land in dangerous terrain then that is our own fault.

8) Costing: 3x DL Ravager - 125pts, ML/HB Land Speeder - 70pts, ML/AC Taurox Prime - 100pts

I apologise, the Prime costs more than the Landspeeder, not the Ravager.

Don't get me wrong. Ravagers and Land Speeders aren't power units, neither is a Taurox Prime. But it stacks up ok against them in most respects. The only thing I feel that's really missing is Tank Shock.

The thing is though, the Prime does not stack up well at all. It cannot jink if it is caught in the open, it is still slower than the other two and its pathetic amour of 11/10/10 means that anything heavier than a Bolter can hurt it. And its firepower is the same as a Chimeras unless you are willing to shed out on the points. It is also unavailable for Veterans and regular Infantry sections. Of the two units that are allowed it, one is a massively overpriced Elites choice that, even in casual games, is almost never used and the other is the Company Command Section whom will still take a Chimera as they can issue orders from a Chimera whilst they cannot issue orders from a Taurox.

 master of ordinance wrote:


The Taurox hardly has a decent range for its guns.

The Prime is BS4? That is news to me

The Taurox Prime cannot fire all its weapons at full BS if it moves unless you pay the upgrade to make your already expensive vehicle fast


Obsec is not really an issue in 7th seeing as all units can claim objectives.

And its firepower is the same as a Chimeras unless you are willing to shed out on the points. I.

Well i can see someone has not tried using them or doesnt know the rules. "Hardly decent" range? 48" is "hardly decent"?

You're criticising it without even knowing its BS4?

The Taurox Prime doesnt PAY for an upgrade to make it fast! PRIMES ARE FAST! So I am soconfused by this post. Stop replying and actually read the rules and THEN come back and have this discussion because its annoying to hear people post wrong things repeatedly as if they were some great counterpoint.

It isnt that everything you said is wrong. But this is basic stuff here. You're intnetionally minimizing things to make things sound worse than they are.

If you don't like the Prime, I'm fine with that but at least know what you're talking about.

I've used the Prime a few times before, and it being fast makes a world of difference. It can zip around and shoot stuff up without having to slow down. Unfortunately only my Stormtroopers can take it as a DT (which is unfortunate). At the end of the day I still prefer the good ol' Chimera, but the Prime has it's uses.

I honestly will step out away from the loving warmth of peer consensus to defend the Taurox, mainly in light of the small but every present nerfs to the Chimera.

I have one Chimera and one Taurox. My Taurox will carry veterans (typically melta vets) 100% of the time. The extra fire points allows you to actually use all of your special weapon slots for the squad whilst embarked, and it's NOT going to be immobilized as it scoots through ruins right into the enemy's flank (well, there was that one time, but the exception proves the rule right? ) Plus, if you pay for a Chimera's worth of points, you can slap camo netting on the thing and, assuming you use the Taurox wisely and keep it skirting through terrain (preferably ruins), you can get that wonderful 3+ cover save, and you can laugh maniacally when your opponent suffers severe consternation when your paper-thin DT just won't die. Until you play Tau. Then you're dead, regardless of which units you take.

My Chimera will take a CCS whenever I actually have a CCS in my list; I've never seen anybody waste the Command Vehicle special rule, and I won't be the first. But if I had no CCS, and I had a second squad of veterans, I would essentially lose a lot of utility from taking a 3rd special weapon/heavy weapon, as only two weapons can fire out the top hatch. Granted, you'll have a multilaser and a heavy bolter and a bunch of lasguns, but those dedicated anti-TEQ or anti-armor weapons will get fewer shots, and I personally can't get behind bringing only two special weapons. The Chimera has a significantly higher chance of getting stuck somewhere if you were hoping to get it a cover save (water features are an exception of course, but how is water getting you a cover save...?).

In a hypothetical environment where your DT has no saves, I see very little difference between front armor 11 and 12, especially when they both have SA/RA 10. I tend to get just a little more out of TL autocannons than ML + HB, you can get a cheaper transport/free camo netting with a Taurox, AND extra fire points. IMO, the Taurox fills the "short range mech vets" niche more amply than the Chimera, but the Chimera will always be the go-to tank for command squads.

Yes, people think the Taurox is ugly. I personally don't fully agree. I understand that complaint, but the fact that it is a smaller model tends to help. I am aptly naming my Taurox "The Ugly Truckling", and I am getting a kick out of it.

Now I digress: the Prime is grossly overcosted for BS4 and Fast. And is limited to stormies. When stormies are typically pretty well off just Deep Striking. I will not be taking Primes very soon.



TL;DR Taurox is underrated and can fill the mech vet niche. Chimera is still good, ofc, just a little less so than last edition. The Prime for me is "Do not want!"

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
I cannot imagine running the Taurox Prime with the intention of using it as a transport.

It's a fast fire platform -- comparing it to a Chimera isn't productive. It's a lot more like a LS Typhoon or Ravager.

Except the Typhoon and the Ravager both have more firepower and are skimmers and they can jink and they have a better BS and they still do not cost as much......

@the_scotsman:
Storm Troopers are, quite frankly, a joke. They cost as much as a Tactical Marine, bring less to the board than a basic Scout does and have crappy LD and overall stats and their gun has a terrible range and is still considered Rapid Fire., making it a useless weapon. At best they can make a semi reliable suicide unit for killing a unit of PA guys. If they can put enough wounds on them that is. Usually though they will die without ever performing any significant role. Do yourself a favour and hire on an Inquisitor with Acolyte henchmen - you can give Acolytes Power Armour and a Hellgun and they will only cost 5 points more than your Storm Trooper does. And they have the same stats and can be accompanied by a Jokero to improve them still further and a pair of Crusaders to act as the tanks and an Inquisitor to deal even more damage and buff their morale.
What would you rather have:
14 points for what is essentially a Veteran in Carapace with a Hellgun
or
19 points for what is essentially a Veteran in Power Armour with a Hellgun (or 15 if you want a bolter or 14 if you want a Lasgun or 13 if you want a Hellgun and Carapace) with the option to take multiple buffs and improvements

Your choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"And it is also transporting guys with a base line of 4 for their stats and 3+ saves. "

Don't kid yourself. This doesn't mean that much anymore. Power armor hasn't been this bad since 2nd. Don't let people list tailor to your list, and then laugh as all that AP 2 goodness hits guardsmen.

Well Martel:
A) Marines are generally a hell of a lot better than Guardsmen
B) Marines tend not to pay for their transports
C) Marines transports are far better than Guard ones anyway - they are immune to small arms and are cheap

All I want to see is the Chimera brought down to 55 points and given AV 12/11/10, as it really should be.

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, this is a thread about the Guard. We don't care how bad BA are. The comparison made was in reference to marines in general, in which they can easily get free transports.

The shittyness of the BA isn't relevant.

As usual, Martel will take EVER. SINGLE. OPPORTUNITY. To b*tch and moan about BA. It's comical at this point.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Blacksails wrote:
Martel, this is a thread about the Guard. We don't care how bad BA are. The comparison made was in reference to marines in general, in which they can easily get free transports.

The shittyness of the BA isn't relevant.

Then it's free transports he should complain about, not meqs. Because meqs are target dummies. To be more clear, BA (and CSM) specifically refutes every such claim about meqs in this edition. Superfriends is good. Gladius is good, in spite of meqs, not because of them. Skyhammer is good in spite of meqs, not because of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
As usual, Martel will take EVER. SINGLE. OPPORTUNITY. To b*tch and moan about BA. It's comical at this point.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Glad to be of service. Read the above to see why you're wrong in this case.

To start putting the pieces together:

 Vaktathi wrote:
[A Taurox Prime] points itself out as the obvious weak spot in an armored list of otherwise solid AV12 or AV14 wall...

 War Kitten wrote:
Half the time I'm scared to move my Chimeras because they can be glanced to death by basic bolters...

 KommissarKiln wrote:
The Chimera has a significantly higher chance of getting stuck somewhere if you were hoping to get it a cover save...

I've never seen anybody waste the Command Vehicle special rule, and I won't be the first...

The problem with the Taurox Prime is not firepower, they are as shooty against 3+ as Plasma Vets, Grav Cannon Tacs and Scatterbikes. None of those units are exactly paragons of survivability either. But the Prime is pretty much an anti-Chimera, so it just doesn't play well in the same kind of IG build.

 master of ordinance wrote:
19 points for what is essentially a Veteran in Power Armour with a Hell Gun

Scions are 12ppm, not 14ppm like Marines. The idea of giving up BS4, MTC, Deepstrike, Obsec, Obsec Transports, Command Squads with Clarion Vox and Orders, access to Volleyguns, and Frag/Krak Grenades for Acolytes in PA -- that cost 7ppm more -- is bonkers. Yes with Joakero, Inquisitors and Crusaders it's a tougher squad. But those aren't free either.

Martel732 wrote:

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, I am on about Codex Space Smurf Marines whom are in every way shape and form superior to a Guardsman for what they cost. I know that the BA are in a bad place right now and I understand your frustration but please do not take my words out of context.

About the Taurox Prime, I seem to have made a couple of mistakes regarding its stats. Well I am glad that it does not need to have to pay to become fast and it actually has a semi decent BS but what it still costs more than it is worth. If it was AV11/11/10 and cost 70 points then maybe it would be a viable choice but as it is the Prime is too soft for what it costs. Maybe a future codex will increase its viability but that is a question for another day.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, I am on about Codex Space Smurf Marines whom are in every way shape and form superior to a Guardsman for what they cost. I know that the BA are in a bad place right now and I understand your frustration but please do not take my words out of context.

About the Taurox Prime, I seem to have made a couple of mistakes regarding its stats. Well I am glad that it does not need to have to pay to become fast and it actually has a semi decent BS but what it still costs more than it is worth. If it was AV11/11/10 and cost 70 points then maybe it would be a viable choice but as it is the Prime is too soft for what it costs. Maybe a future codex will increase its viability but that is a question for another day.

The actual marines are the same, though. So aren't the problem. In fact, they lose ground on guardsmen every time GW publishes a 7.5 codex.

Taurox Primes sound a lot like BA razor backs. Which I have largely stopped using.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, I am on about Codex Space Smurf Marines whom are in every way shape and form superior to a Guardsman for what they cost. I know that the BA are in a bad place right now and I understand your frustration but please do not take my words out of context.

About the Taurox Prime, I seem to have made a couple of mistakes regarding its stats. Well I am glad that it does not need to have to pay to become fast and it actually has a semi decent BS but what it still costs more than it is worth. If it was AV11/11/10 and cost 70 points then maybe it would be a viable choice but as it is the Prime is too soft for what it costs. Maybe a future codex will increase its viability but that is a question for another day.

The actual marines are the same, though. So aren't the problem. In fact, they lose ground on guardsmen every time GW publishes a 7.5 codex.

Taurox Primes sound a lot like BA razor backs. Which I have largely stopped using.

If that is the case then why are Imperial Guard players calling for buffs?

The basic Taurax has less fire power than the Chimera and the Chimera can get the same weapon, plus a secondary, has a better firing port, and I can issue orders out it. The basic Taurax sucks cause it has no place in the army.

Don't forget the cargo capacity. The Taurox only carries 10 instead of 12.

The worst thing about it is it's name, though. Why name something Taurox, when you already have a Tauros in your lineup?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, I am on about Codex Space Smurf Marines whom are in every way shape and form superior to a Guardsman for what they cost. I know that the BA are in a bad place right now and I understand your frustration but please do not take my words out of context.

About the Taurox Prime, I seem to have made a couple of mistakes regarding its stats. Well I am glad that it does not need to have to pay to become fast and it actually has a semi decent BS but what it still costs more than it is worth. If it was AV11/11/10 and cost 70 points then maybe it would be a viable choice but as it is the Prime is too soft for what it costs. Maybe a future codex will increase its viability but that is a question for another day.

The actual marines are the same, though. So aren't the problem. In fact, they lose ground on guardsmen every time GW publishes a 7.5 codex.

Taurox Primes sound a lot like BA razor backs. Which I have largely stopped using.

If that is the case then why are Imperial Guard players calling for buffs?

Same reason BA players are calling for buffs. Although the things in the IG that need buffed aren't the guardsmen. Almost all of your problems are linked to vehicle rules in 7th. Guardsmen + misfortune + FRFSF is better firepower than anything in the BA codex and probably better than anything in the marine codex except grav cents.

Martel732 wrote:

Same reason BA players are calling for buffs. Although the things in the IG that need buffed aren't the guardsmen. Almost all of your problems are linked to vehicle rules in 7th. Guardsmen + misfortune + FRFSF is better firepower than anything in the BA codex and probably better than anything in the marine codex except grav cents.

Actually yes, Guardsmen do need buffs. We pay Marine prices for Special/Heavy Weapons on a far far far less reliable platform. Add in the fact that if you want to utilize Orders you're essentially having to play Psyker with a tiny range and it becomes a real issue.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, I am on about Codex Space Smurf Marines whom are in every way shape and form superior to a Guardsman for what they cost. I know that the BA are in a bad place right now and I understand your frustration but please do not take my words out of context.

About the Taurox Prime, I seem to have made a couple of mistakes regarding its stats. Well I am glad that it does not need to have to pay to become fast and it actually has a semi decent BS but what it still costs more than it is worth. If it was AV11/11/10 and cost 70 points then maybe it would be a viable choice but as it is the Prime is too soft for what it costs. Maybe a future codex will increase its viability but that is a question for another day.

The actual marines are the same, though. So aren't the problem. In fact, they lose ground on guardsmen every time GW publishes a 7.5 codex.

Taurox Primes sound a lot like BA razor backs. Which I have largely stopped using.

If that is the case then why are Imperial Guard players calling for buffs?

Same reason BA players are calling for buffs. Although the things in the IG that need buffed aren't the guardsmen. Almost all of your problems are linked to vehicle rules in 7th. Guardsmen + misfortune + FRFSF is better firepower than anything in the BA codex and probably better than anything in the marine codex except grav cents.

If you are running blobguard yes, at which point you suffer the problem that is keeping the blob alive long enough to make effective contact with the enemy as just about everything out there will eat 50 Guardsmen in a few turns. Several blasts and heavy weapon barrages followed up with bolter fire will wipe out a blob section before it can even fire a shot.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Same reason BA players are calling for buffs. Although the things in the IG that need buffed aren't the guardsmen. Almost all of your problems are linked to vehicle rules in 7th. Guardsmen + misfortune + FRFSF is better firepower than anything in the BA codex and probably better than anything in the marine codex except grav cents.

Actually yes, Guardsmen do need buffs. We pay Marine prices for Special/Heavy Weapons on a far far far less reliable platform. Add in the fact that if you want to utilize Orders you're essentially having to play Psyker with a tiny range and it becomes a real issue.

Well Imperial heavy weapons are a lost cause in general. So I guess that those and the special could use a discount for guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, I am on about Codex Space Smurf Marines whom are in every way shape and form superior to a Guardsman for what they cost. I know that the BA are in a bad place right now and I understand your frustration but please do not take my words out of context.

About the Taurox Prime, I seem to have made a couple of mistakes regarding its stats. Well I am glad that it does not need to have to pay to become fast and it actually has a semi decent BS but what it still costs more than it is worth. If it was AV11/11/10 and cost 70 points then maybe it would be a viable choice but as it is the Prime is too soft for what it costs. Maybe a future codex will increase its viability but that is a question for another day.

The actual marines are the same, though. So aren't the problem. In fact, they lose ground on guardsmen every time GW publishes a 7.5 codex.

Taurox Primes sound a lot like BA razor backs. Which I have largely stopped using.

If that is the case then why are Imperial Guard players calling for buffs?

Same reason BA players are calling for buffs. Although the things in the IG that need buffed aren't the guardsmen. Almost all of your problems are linked to vehicle rules in 7th. Guardsmen + misfortune + FRFSF is better firepower than anything in the BA codex and probably better than anything in the marine codex except grav cents.

If you are running blobguard yes, at which point you suffer the problem that is keeping the blob alive long enough to make effective contact with the enemy as just about everything out there will eat 50 Guardsmen in a few turns. Several blasts and heavy weapon barrages followed up with bolter fire will wipe out a blob section before it can even fire a shot.

I've seen it happen a lot, though. Against good lists, too. Also, if your opponent has bolters, thank the Emperor, because that could have been a real weapon. Lots of lists aren't using blasts anymore, because MCs laugh at blasts. Play counter meta. The IG can, the BA, not so much. It's not like there aren't a lot of other units you can add to guard blob. It costs about as much as a SG death star and is so very much better.

Furthermore, if you run enough psykers to get a couple misfortune dudes, you'll probably have the 4++ power, which makes your blob basically immortal.

IG needs to suck it up and leave all the Leman Russes at home. D weapons, haywire, hull points, and lack of behemoth have ruined them. Bring the things that work now. Quit spending big points on liabilities. Yeah, it's annoying, but this is coming from someone who has had 85% of a codex wallpapered. (Borrowing a card game term)

Theres not too much alternative, the (non ordnance)Russ tanks are the most capable things in the book for the most part, it largely goes downhill from there. Theres not terribly much "counter meta" one can do. BA's arent great, but lets not make it out like theyre any more helpless than IG are, theyre both actually pretty balanced against each other, and id take either over CSM's or a MT list in a tournament.

I'm struggling these days to think of what a strong Guard (and only Guard) list would look like.

Arty formation with a standard CAD CCS+Mechvets? Armoured Company with Arty formation? Ally in the FW ABG Beast-HunterQuisher?

If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

A strong Guard list is Skitarii.

I really hate to say that, but Skitarii? They're what Guard SHOULD be with this edition. Army-wide buffs rather than "Dave tells Infantry Squad 236 to look left! IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE!" styled Orders.

 Kanluwen wrote:
A strong Guard list is Skitarii.

I really hate to say that, but Skitarii? They're what Guard SHOULD be with this edition. Army-wide buffs rather than "Dave tells Infantry Squad 236 to look left! IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE!" styled Orders.

I started laughing, now I'm crying.

Oh man, the Skitarii are great infantry, and the Vanguards are everything I always wanted Stormtroopers to ever be.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm struggling these days to think of what a strong Guard (and only Guard) list would look like.

Arty formation with a standard CAD CCS+Mechvets? Armoured Company with Arty formation? Ally in the FW ABG Beast-HunterQuisher?

If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

I'd start with lots of divination psykers. I don't know the specifics. It seems to be that orders + divinations buffs + tons of shots seems better than anything BA or CSM could hope to field.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm struggling these days to think of what a strong Guard (and only Guard) list would look like.

Arty formation with a standard CAD CCS+Mechvets? Armoured Company with Arty formation? Ally in the FW ABG Beast-HunterQuisher?

If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

Well the new formations create another opportunity to look at it anew, right? The Cadian Battlegroup makes a blob more scary although honestly the loss of Objective Secured bothers me too much to take advantage of that so i might still keep the blob in a CAD. The Emperors Wrath Artillery Company is truly fearsome. Twin-linked artillery with orders? Yes please? And the Enginseers as I pointed out in my recnt blog entry can effectively let Wyverns or Hydras to split their fire up, devastating a much larger number of targets.
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/01/astra-militarum-enginseers-for-win.html

I feel as if the blob in a CAD and the Emperors Wrath Artillery Company would be a serious contender for inclusion in a strong IG list.

 Blacksails wrote:
If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

I don't know the list itself but I know what you need:

- Deployment options
- Reserves manipulation
- Mobility
- Firepower
- Board Presence (MSU or summoning)
- Resiliency (in some form)

I think a lot of Guard players have had trouble adjusting to Maelstrom, Pask/Meltavets/Tanks is too slow and Blobs have their own problems.

I'd definitely look at those Renegades lists to see what they're doing right.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

I don't know the list itself but I know what you need:

- Deployment options
- Reserves manipulation
- Mobility
- Firepower
- Board Presence (MSU or summoning)
- Resiliency (in some form)

I think a lot of Guard players have had trouble adjusting to Maelstrom, Pask/Meltavets/Tanks is too slow and Blobs have their own problems.

It's not a question of Maelstrom. It's a question of the mechanics of the army as a whole.

Guard Infantry are paying an obscene amount of points for Heavy Weapons Teams and Special Weapons on models. Guard armor isn't reliable anymore. Guard Orders are impressive on paper, terrible in practice(LD checks are dumb for benefits that should be army-wide or something of that nature and needing to be declared in advance) and don't apply to vehicles.

The list goes on.

I'd definitely look at those Renegades lists to see what they're doing right.

Most of the Renegades lists, from my understanding, take advantage of the fact that Renegades have access to "Recycling" units and a great many of things that Guard don't.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

I don't know the list itself but I know what you need:

- Deployment options
- Reserves manipulation
- Mobility
- Firepower
- Board Presence (MSU or summoning)
- Resiliency (in some form)

I think a lot of Guard players have had trouble adjusting to Maelstrom, Pask/Meltavets/Tanks is too slow and Blobs have their own problems.

It's not a question of Maelstrom. It's a question of the mechanics of the army as a whole.

Guard Infantry are paying an obscene amount of points for Heavy Weapons Teams and Special Weapons on models. Guard armor isn't reliable anymore. Guard Orders are impressive on paper, terrible in practice(LD checks are dumb for benefits that should be army-wide or something of that nature and needing to be declared in advance) and don't apply to vehicles.

The list goes on.

I'd definitely look at those Renegades lists to see what they're doing right.

Most of the Renegades lists, from my understanding, take advantage of the fact that Renegades have access to "Recycling" units and a great many of things that Guard don't.

The orders actually CAN affect vehicles when Pask or when you use the new Formation. Take a look at it.

Guard are impressive in reality as well as on paper because its just hard to get enough TIME to kill them all. they're like a wave of humanity which challenges you to even have enough bullets left at the end to kill them all.

If you keep trying tochest up to enemies with large scale models like Chimera spam, and LemanRuss walls, you're going to leasrn the most painful lesson anyone in 7E ever learns: melee isn't dead.

To wit: my friend who is a casual player brought his wall of iron and also SIX...yes SIX... huge artillery barrages that he can fire and you cant stop them. some Forge World thing. just choose any spot and scatter away.

What he learned by tuyrn two is that units can sneak up on you from reserves while others rush you and prepare.The Wall of Iron simply cant kill everything. And then the multiassaults happen and all of a sudden: no more Leman Russ tanks.

Trying to play that game with Guard just isn't the path to victory. sure, there will be good matches. but dang... The Tau Empire sincerely hope you plan on using armor to attack them. Sincerely.

that's WHY I gravitated so much to more bodies. I find that in the absolute worst of circumstances, I am at minimum difficult to remove and in an objective based game, this is a win. And i am also plenty of firepower to end the MOST powerful thing they have. i might not be able to drop ALL their most powerful things in one go but i can take one down and one counts for a lot if its in the ITC.

I also find that i can be more places when i don't commit to armor. Armor is good and if its a Taurox Prime it can be very fast and once I can GET places, I'm good to go.

I find that reserves help me make certain the enemy's superior firepower doesn't have enough time to do its grisly work. I use the math against them and say to them "Given enough time you might have tabled me...so i am stealing time from you".

I find that with Guard, as compared to guards armor, i can protect my firepower longer.

So for a lot of reasons, the massive guardsman and some speedy Taurox Primes has become a really effective way to play for me.

in a normal straight up Guard army, I dedicate myself to two blobs and Coteaz joins the party as an ally.

Wyverns definitely deserve to be in any Guard list. They are just awesome sauce. I think a Manticore is a must given that they can kill multi-wound models like fast moving Spawn, Grotesques especially and also Beast Packs, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and the list goes on. They can hit an enormous footprint on a good day. So it's just a good solid unit with a utility you don't really have anywhere else in the unit.

That's why I am attracted to this new Artillery Formation. You thought a Wyvern or Manticore were useful before? Psh. and the Enginseers in the unit can really spread the love and make better use of your secondary weapons that would otherwise be wasted.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

I don't know the list itself but I know what you need:

- Deployment options
- Reserves manipulation
- Mobility
- Firepower
- Board Presence (MSU or summoning)
- Resiliency (in some form)

I think a lot of Guard players have had trouble adjusting to Maelstrom, Pask/Meltavets/Tanks is too slow and Blobs have their own problems.

It's not a question of Maelstrom. It's a question of the mechanics of the army as a whole.

Guard Infantry are paying an obscene amount of points for Heavy Weapons Teams and Special Weapons on models. Guard armor isn't reliable anymore. Guard Orders are impressive on paper, terrible in practice(LD checks are dumb for benefits that should be army-wide or something of that nature and needing to be declared in advance) and don't apply to vehicles.

The list goes on.

I'd definitely look at those Renegades lists to see what they're doing right.

Most of the Renegades lists, from my understanding, take advantage of the fact that Renegades have access to "Recycling" units and a great many of things that Guard don't.

The orders actually CAN affect vehicles when Pask or when you use the new Formation. Take a look at it.

Read the Guard codex. Pask is not able to issue Orders beyond what a Leman Russ Commander has access to from the "Tank Orders" on page 32.
BTW: We're discussing GUARD. Not the Cadian Detachment or Relics; which are very specific. As great as Kabe's Herald and the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company are--they're not in the main Codex, which is what most people are going to refer to.

Additionally? Those are all bandaids covering an issue, not actually fixing it.

Guard are impressive in reality as well as on paper because its just hard to get enough TIME to kill them all. they're like a wave of humanity which challenges you to even have enough bullets left at the end to kill them all.

Who needs bullets when you have blast templates?

The rest of your post is not really worth replying to as it's a nonsensical mess of anecdotes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Read the Guard codex. Pask is not able to issue Orders beyond what a Leman Russ Commander has access to from the "Tank Orders" on page 32.
BTW: We're discussing GUARD. Not the Cadian Detachment or Relics; which are very specific. As great as Kabe's Herald and the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company are--they're not in the main Codex, which is what most people are going to refer to.

Additionally? Those are all bandaids covering an issue, not actually fixing it.

Who needs bullets when you have blast templates?

The rest of your post is not really worth replying to as it's a nonsensical mess of anecdotes.

You disagree with me by agreeing with me? Lol. Yes I know he "only" gets those orders. So what. He gets them. And the Artillery Batteries can get them now too. So your point is moot. IN fact.

The Cadian Detachment is in fact a thing, so saying we're "talking about Guard" without talking about ALL of Guard is pointless and pedantic.

And you CALL them Band-Aids but the actual fact is they are ACTUALLY canon parts of the Codex now...Just like Mont'ka and Kauyon are for Tau,. Yup. Truuuuuue story.

The people who need bullets are the ones who fire blast templates at spread out guard with 4+ invuls, since you ask. Blasts aren't the entire answer, and in a five round tournament, I imagine you wont see an enormous concentration of blast weapons, but if you do, the answer is the same.

And "anecdotes" is what someone says when they want to ignore actualized results. So you can say what you like but you're off base here.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Read the Guard codex. Pask is not able to issue Orders beyond what a Leman Russ Commander has access to from the "Tank Orders" on page 32.
BTW: We're discussing GUARD. Not the Cadian Detachment or Relics; which are very specific. As great as Kabe's Herald and the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company are--they're not in the main Codex, which is what most people are going to refer to.

Additionally? Those are all bandaids covering an issue, not actually fixing it.

Who needs bullets when you have blast templates?

The rest of your post is not really worth replying to as it's a nonsensical mess of anecdotes.

You disagree with me by agreeing with me? Lol. Yes I know he "only" gets those orders. So what. He gets them. And the Artillery Batteries can get them now too. So your point is moot. IN fact.

"Tank Commander Orders" aren't Orders in the sense that most Guard players think of them. They're affecting the Tank Commander and his mandatory tank bodyguard.

Artillery Batteries cannot get Orders. They can only receive them as part of Emperor's Wrath.

The Cadian Detachment is in fact a thing, so saying we're "talking about Guard" without talking about ALL of Guard is pointless and pedantic.

Is it in the Astra Militarum Codex?

No. Supplemental material is just that: supplemental material.

And you CALL them Band-Aids but the actual fact is they are ACTUALLY canon parts of the Codex now...Just like Mont'ka and Kauyon are for Tau,. Yup. Truuuuuue story.

The material in Kau'yon for Tau is in their new Codex, which is (truuuuuue story) an updated Codex. Mont'ka is a supplement for Codex: Tau Empire.

"Canon" has no meaning in this conversation.

The Cadian Battle Group is its own unique Detachment. You can also, at any point in time, declare that your CAD is a Cadian Detachment and use the Relics.

The people who need bullets are the ones who fire blast templates at spread out guard with 4+ invuls, since you ask. Blasts aren't the entire answer, and in a five round tournament, I imagine you wont see an enormous concentration of blast weapons, but if you do, the answer is the same.

4+ invuls can still be failed on a 1, 2, or 3.

And if someone's playing the new Cadian Battle Group, there's only so much room that they will have in their deployment zone if taking an ESIC as their Core choice.

And "anecdotes" is what someone says when they want to ignore actualized results. So you can say what you like but you're off base here.

"Anecdotes" is what someone says when replying to a rambling story that has very little merit for the purposes of a discussion.

I agree with Kan that the new formations are band-aids...and not great ones either.

I also agree that a string of anecdotes doesn't really add much.

That said, at least the arty formation is worth using, though I'm going to explore those renegade options that seemed to appear near the top of the LVO results. The latest renegades list is Siege of Vraks 2nd Ed, right?

 Blacksails wrote:
I agree with Kan that the new formations are band-aids...and not great ones either.

Honestly, I like most of them. I dislike the Ogryn one(it should require a lot less models and should allow you to mix 'n' match) and I feel like the ESIP/ESIC can feel a lot more accessible to players if you alter the "Minimum of 5 Infantry Squads" to "Minimum of 5 Squads with the Infantry Type".

The initial promo stuff we had for the ESIP had a Command Squad, three boxes of Cadians, and two Heavy Weapons Squad boxes--exactly 5 squads with the Infantry type.

That said, at least the arty formation is worth using, though I'm going to explore those renegade options that seemed to appear near the top of the LVO results. The latest renegades list is Siege of Vraks 2nd Ed, right?

I think the latest Renegades list is in IA13, "War Machines of the Lost and the Damned".

 Kanluwen wrote:


"Tank Commander Orders" aren't Orders in the sense that most Guard players think of them. They're affecting the Tank Commander and his mandatory tank bodyguard.

Artillery Batteries cannot get Orders. They can only receive them as part of Emperor's Wrath.

.

So...again...Im right...and you're arguing with me by agreeing. Again. Lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Supplemental material is just that: supplemental material.

Again: irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:


The material in Kau'yon for Tau is in their new Codex, which is (truuuuuue story) an updated Codex. Mont'ka is a supplement for Codex: Tau Empire.
.

You're actually wrong again! Have you even looked? LOOK in your Tau Codex. Now LOOK in your Kauyon book. Now tell me what ISN'T in the Tau codex. Then come and apologize for again being wrong.

It's really not that complicated Kanluwen. Maelstrom objectives and ITC format requires speed and presence. You need to be aggressive and the primary mechanic is mobility. Look at the top LVO lists from the last two years - Outflank, Deepstrike, Infiltration, Drop Pod Assault, Jump/Jetpack/Bike units. That's not at all how mech Guard works. A generic 1850pt list might look like this:

CAD
- Tank Commander (Pask - Punisher, Executioner)
- Meltavets w/Chimera
- Meltavets w/Chimera
- Meltavets w/Chimera
- Vulture
- Leman Russ
- Leman Russ
Arty Formation
- CCS w/Chimera
- Enginseer
- Manticore
- Wyvern
- Wyvern

The only unit that can move 12" and shoot properly is the Vulture. Nothing at all can be pushed onto objectives aggressively, and the entire list crumples in assault. If hustling to score VPs destroys your firepower, you don't have enough firepower to make VPs irrelevant, and you have nothing except firepower available to control the midfield, you are going to lose.

Its sad that maelstrom is the new standard. What an awful game mode.

Thanks Kan, I'll look into it.

 Blacksails wrote:
Its sad that maelstrom is the new standard. What an awful game mode.

Thanks Kan, I'll look into it.

You don't like Maelstrom? It's my favorite mode, but I don't think it makes as much sense in Tournaments. certain armies like Astra Militarum do indeed have to work a little harder to get to far flung places. I think that tournaments may wish to use the Eternal War missions more than the ITC ones.

And an ITC tournament does NOT have to use ITC missions. So I mean: T.O.'s are free to decide what they wanna' do.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


"Tank Commander Orders" aren't Orders in the sense that most Guard players think of them. They're affecting the Tank Commander and his mandatory tank bodyguard.

Artillery Batteries cannot get Orders. They can only receive them as part of Emperor's Wrath.

.

So...again...Im right...and you're arguing with me by agreeing. Again. Lol.

Wyvern, Hydra, Manticores, and Deathstrikes only can receive orders as part of the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company(read: Artillery COMPANY, not Artillery BATTERIES).

Ordnance BATTERIES are something specific from FW's IA1. They cannot receive Orders. They consist of Basilisks, Griffons, Medusas, or Colossi.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Supplemental material is just that: supplemental material.

Again: irrelevant.

You're the one trying to nitpick here, bud. It's perfectly relevant when you're wrong.

 Kanluwen wrote:


The material in Kau'yon for Tau is in their new Codex, which is (truuuuuue story) an updated Codex. Mont'ka is a supplement for Codex: Tau Empire.
.

You're actually wrong again!

Kauyon pg 56 wrote:As well as containing the brand new Fortification rules, this chapter of the book is designed to be used in conjunction with Codex: Tau Empire(2012) to provide players with all of the new rules found in Codex: Tau Empire(2015). The following rules in Codex: Tau Empire(2012) have also been updated to reflect changes introduced by the new codex:

Got an anecdote about that? Because yeah, it's pretty clear that Kauyon was intended to be an update for the previous Tau Codex so players didn't have to buy the book again if they didn't want to.

Mont'ka does not do the same for Guard, just like Kauyon did not do it for Space Marines.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's really not that complicated Kanluwen. Maelstrom objectives and ITC format requires speed and presence. You need to be aggressive and the primary mechanic is mobility. Look at the top LVO lists from the last two years - Outflank, Deepstrike, Infiltration, Drop Pod Assault, Jump/Jetpack/Bike units. That's not at all how mech Guard works.

the problem is that its not how guard works in general (not just mech guard), the army has terrible mobility, and when it can muster mobility, it lacks both resiliency and killing power (e.g. MT, Elysians)

A large part of that is by design, the army isnt meant to be fast, its supposed to overwhelm with numbers and firepower. The problem there is that their numbers arent particularly impressive anymore or can be actively used against them (KP's) and their firepower is thoroughly mediocre, equalled or openly outmatched by far more versatile and less firepower dependent armies.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Wyvern, Hydra, Manticores, and Deathstrikes only can receive orders as part of the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company(read: Artillery COMPANY, not Artillery BATTERIES).

Ordnance BATTERIES are something specific from FW's IA1. They cannot receive Orders. They consist of Basilisks, Griffons, Medusas, or Colossi.
s.

Im literally stunned that you think this pendantism is going to in any way change what I said. A barttery can be a battery of one dude. You're grasping. hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:


You're the one trying to nitpick here, bud. It's perfectly relevant when you're wrong.

...but I'm not! so the hilarity continues. You are literally saying something that isnt true! Those rules are 100% Astra militarum rules, useable in ANY game you choose. So no one gives a flying chicken whether you think so or not.

Maybe get back to the tactics and strategy gents.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Got an anecdote about that? Because yeah, it's pretty clear that Kauyon was intended to be an update for the previous Tau Codex so players didn't have to buy the book again if they didn't want to.

Mont'ka does not do the same for Guard, just like Kauyon did not do it for Space Marines.

Yeah I do actually have something to say to that smart guy: It DID update the IG EXACTLY like Kauyon did.

Kauyon has information that neither the new nor the old Tau codex contains. Same as the IG.

If you CHOOSE not to include the new information at your disposal, then choose not to comment further since you will be complaining about a faction whose rules have improved, an improvement you apparently seem unwilling to acknowledge. That's your call. but do not pretend that this spurious argument of yours in any way influences the actual usefulness of these new resources.

So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

/fuelfortheflames

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

/fuelfortheflames

No. My line of reasoning for Forge World went beyond it being "approved". So not the same.

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

I want to thank you for making sure this conversation devolves into something completely off the rails. It'll be entertaining and wildly off topic

Question, so some tournaments locally limit the amount of books you can use when making an army. So does the Kauyon not count as a separate book, since it's now rolled into the Tau codex? Because I was unaware of this if so.
Does the IG book not work the same way? I don't play IG so ultimately it doesn't matter, just curious so I can know what to expect.


Edit; miss your last comment

I don't even understand the disagreement anymore.

My simple contention: Russ hulls are overpriced. Stop using things that are overpriced.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't even understand the disagreement anymore.

My simple contention: Russ hulls are overpriced. Stop using things that are overpriced.

There's the issue. Most of the units in the book are overpriced. When you start looking at the units that aren't, you're left with little to work with.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't even understand the disagreement anymore.

My simple contention: Russ hulls are overpriced. Stop using things that are overpriced.

It's in some ways similar to the discussions about the CSM codex or any other codex.

When complaining about a codex, how much do you look at? Do you look at the codex itself alone? Allies? FW? Supplements?
Because where you make the line and say "no further" will change your outlook considerably.

Now they are arguing semantics about what is considered the codex alone between two armies because internet and bad charisma scores.


But yes, Russ is way overpriced. Most tanks are, since grav and Str D especially, but even before then tanks were way overpriced.
Even mutilators perform well against them, as do most walkers. That's saying something.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't even understand the disagreement anymore.

My simple contention: Russ hulls are overpriced. Stop using things that are overpriced.

There's the issue. Most of the units in the book are overpriced. When you start looking at the units that aren't, you're left with little to work with.

I think there are elements to the IG that are less overpriced than Russes. Also, blasts are super out of vogue in my meta unless it's an IA, which can trivially get ignores cover. IG should use that to their advantage. Artillery/foot lists don't care about haywire or Str D nearly as much.

Yoyoyo wrote:Maybe get back to the tactics and strategy gents.

MY PLASTIC SOLDIERMEN STRATEGIES ARE BETTER THAN YOU'RES!!1!
But yeah, let's try to not get too heated about this. I do not mean to mock anyone, just trying to lighten it up a bit.

Yoyoyo wrote:It's really not that complicated Kanluwen. Maelstrom objectives and ITC format requires speed and presence. You need to be aggressive and the primary mechanic is mobility. Look at the top LVO lists from the last two years - Outflank, Deepstrike, Infiltration, Drop Pod Assault, Jump/Jetpack/Bike units. That's not at all how mech Guard works. A generic 1850pt list might look like this:

Spoiler:

CAD
- Tank Commander (Pask - Punisher, Executioner)
- Meltavets w/Chimera
- Meltavets w/Chimera
- Meltavets w/Chimera
- Vulture
- Leman Russ
- Leman Russ
Arty Formation
- CCS w/Chimera
- Enginseer
- Manticore
- Wyvern
- Wyvern

The only unit that can move 12" and shoot properly is the Vulture. Nothing at all can be pushed onto objectives aggressively, and the entire list crumples in assault. If hustling to score VPs destroys your firepower, you don't have enough firepower to make VPs irrelevant, and you have nothing except firepower available to control the midfield, you are going to lose.

Unfortunately, RAW you have to take the Command and one of the Core choices for the formation to take the EWAC (at least IIRC). I would love to do the Artillery Company or Vets/Hellhound formation just as their own formation along with a CAD, without the 5 Leman Russ/170 Infantry tax+. I'm sure friendly, sportsmanlike opponents in a casual game would allow it, as the benefits are honestly not that major, but in a tournament, even the nicer players will probably sadly reiterate that it's technically not legal. Shame.

Kanluwen wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I agree with Kan that the new formations are band-aids...and not great ones either.

Honestly, I like most of them. I dislike the Ogryn one(it should require a lot less models and should allow you to mix 'n' match) and I feel like the ESIP/ESIC can feel a lot more accessible to players if you alter the "Minimum of 5 Infantry Squads" to "Minimum of 5 Squads with the Infantry Type".

The initial promo stuff we had for the ESIP had a Command Squad, three boxes of Cadians, and two Heavy Weapons Squad boxes--exactly 5 squads with the Infantry type.

I really hope that they'll change this, but for now we're stuck with gakloads of guardsmen per platoon; in another thread that I'll link (if I can bother myself to search for it) someone emailed GW about the the ESIP set claiming it contains enough for the ESIP formation, and GW replied "Ooh, nice catch! Thanks for letting us know!" and promptly removed "enough to field the ESIP" from the set's description.

Which reminds me, did all hopes of a new Guard codex just die or something with the new Mont'Ka book? There are some changes I feel the army honestly deserves, but I don't want other bad things to happen to the IG (I will cry bitter tears the day Rough Riders are finally cut loose, for as infrequently as I've used them). I'm pretty out of it with gaming news; what was released in January, if anything?

The problem is that everything is overpriced and the nonordnance Russ hulls are generally some of the least overpriced stuff, the alternatives are generally even worse

I mean...whats the alternative...a hellhound or basilisk? One only needs so many wyverns.

Martel732 wrote:


I think there are elements to the IG that are less overpriced than Russes.

Sure. But where's the line?

There's also the implication that even the less overpriced units are still overpriced in general. Which is still an issue for the codex.

*Edit* Ninja'd by Vaktathi.

Maybe I could field some Rough Riders and hope to win while my opponent is distracted laughing.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem is that everything is overpriced and the nonordnance Russ hulls are generally some of the least overpriced stuff, the alternatives are generally even worse

I mean...whats the alternative...a hellhound or basilisk? One only needs so many wyverns.

You will spam Wyverns and you will like it young man!
In my day we spammed Rhinos and we rushed them up the board! Both ways!

Akiasura wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem is that everything is overpriced and the nonordnance Russ hulls are generally some of the least overpriced stuff, the alternatives are generally even worse

I mean...whats the alternative...a hellhound or basilisk? One only needs so many wyverns.

You will spam Wyverns and you will like it young man!
In my day we spammed Rhinos and we rushed them up the board! Both ways!

"You kids have it so easy these days! Back in my day we had to pay for bonuses and transports and wargear!"

IG being bad is the best argument against the claim that GW writes rules trying to take money.

"So, we have an army that includes a huge number of infantry, tons of transports, plenty of tanks, and makes up for low stats with numbers. Oh, and we made it really bad, so nobody will play it."

I guess Orks are the same way...

"...And we had to WORK for the points in our lists! It took me weeks in the mines to field 500 points! And I already had the models!"

 Polonius wrote:
IG being bad is the best argument against the claim that GW writes rules trying to take money.

"So, we have an army that includes a huge number of infantry, tons of transports, plenty of tanks, and makes up for low stats with numbers. Oh, and we made it really bad, so nobody will play it."

I guess Orks are the same way...

Well, I suppose IG are the underdogs even in the fluff, so maybe we should've been prepared for this before we got stuck in this time.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
"...And we had to WORK for the points in our lists! It took me weeks in the mines to field 500 points! And I already had the models!"

You fancy younglins and your dang formations! Whats a formation anyway? Formations in my day were placing all your rhinos as forward as possible and praying to the emperor some made it through the starcannons.

You crazy kids and your data slates. Ain't no data in a slate I'll tell you what.

Gosh I read this thread and I feel so young again

 KommissarKiln wrote:
"...And we had to WORK for the points in our lists! It took me weeks in the mines to field 500 points! And I already had the models!"

 Polonius wrote:
IG being bad is the best argument against the claim that GW writes rules trying to take money.

"So, we have an army that includes a huge number of infantry, tons of transports, plenty of tanks, and makes up for low stats with numbers. Oh, and we made it really bad, so nobody will play it."

I guess Orks are the same way...

Well, I suppose IG are the underdogs even in the fluff, so maybe we should've been prepared for this before we got stuck in this time.

They shouldn't be. Before they go into battle, the enemy positions should be hit with so much artillery there is only one lonely plague marine left standing. GW fluff is stupid gak, and this is another good example of why.

Why sonny...I remember when you only had one detachement, the old FOC...or "CAD" as you whipper snappers call it now. All armies used it, and you could only run one! And allies...? I reckon only if you were running those Inquisition books from back in them thar 3rd ed days.

(I'd dearly love to go back to those days)

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

/fuelfortheflames

No. My line of reasoning for Forge World went beyond it being "approved". So not the same.

This makes no sense. Your claiming that a campaign book that costs money is valid for use for a guard army but a Imperial armor book for guard isn't. Both are supplements.

Akiasura wrote:
You fancy younglins and your dang formations! Whats a formation anyway? Formations in my day were placing all your rhinos as forward as possible and praying to the emperor some made it through the starcannons.

You crazy kids and your data slates. Ain't no data in a slate I'll tell you what.

The only data found in slate are the fossils we found working in the mines! But they only paid us for the coal.

On the topic of formations, it's too bad the IG formations really aren't at the caliber of other armies' formations, with maybe the exception of maybe the artillery one, but it's still probably not quite the same tier, and gosh dangit, we're still paying full points for everything! Including all of the other required choices to even unlock the auxiliary choices!

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

/fuelfortheflames

No. My line of reasoning for Forge World went beyond it being "approved". So not the same.

This makes no sense. Your claiming that a campaign book that costs money is valid for use for a guard army but a Imperial armor book for guard isn't. Both are supplements.

This is typical Jancoran for you. He insists that FW supplement books are illegal and not an option whilst claiming that a supplement book released by GW is.
Then again he also claims that foot blobguard is the ultimate in competitive settings so......

Martel732 wrote:

They shouldn't be. Before they go into battle, the enemy positions should be hit with so much artillery there is only one lonely plague marine left standing. GW fluff is stupid gak, and this is another good example of why.

This is something that I often wish was represented properly, something like the preliminary bombardment rules in Bolt Action. Something that lets me smash my opponent with gack tons of explosives before the game even begins. Actually it is, in a way, linked to another discrepancy that I have: Our vehicles main weapons often have a crazy range but the tiny boards that the game is played on effectively limits how well these units work. I want to be smaccking my opponent as soon as he enters my main guns range, hitting him long before his own guns can shoot. But apparently I have to let him get within range too and give him time to set up his guns and prepare them for firing before I am allowed to engage.

Guard could really benefit from a rule like the Alaitoc craftworld had in the Craftworld supplement.

Might have to change it so it doesn't work on deepstriking squads, but being able to fire before the game starts would make the artillery actually worth taking. Could shake up the meta too, although it'd be hard to write the rules since you'd have to figure out how many hits to give the blast weapons.

Akiasura wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

I want to thank you for making sure this conversation devolves into something completely off the rails. It'll be entertaining and wildly off topic

Question, so some tournaments locally limit the amount of books you can use when making an army. So does the Kauyon not count as a separate book, since it's now rolled into the Tau codex? Because I was unaware of this if so.
Does the IG book not work the same way? I don't play IG so ultimately it doesn't matter, just curious so I can know what to expect.


Edit; miss your last comment

I haven't seen a "book limit" at any tournaments. I know that the Detachment limit is common.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:


This makes no sense. Your claiming that a campaign book that costs money is valid for use for a guard army but a Imperial armor book for guard isn't. Both are supplements.

Actually...to be more accurate... I'm not engaging on the subject at all. If someone wants a thread on Forge World, we could do that again. Sure. Or we could not. Which is kind of the way I'm leaning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

This is typical Jancoran for you. He insists that FW supplement books are illegal and not an option whilst claiming that a supplement book released by GW is.
Then again he also claims that foot blobguard is the ultimate in competitive settings so......

Misquoting me is a poor way to make a point. Just saying.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

I want to thank you for making sure this conversation devolves into something completely off the rails. It'll be entertaining and wildly off topic

Question, so some tournaments locally limit the amount of books you can use when making an army. So does the Kauyon not count as a separate book, since it's now rolled into the Tau codex? Because I was unaware of this if so.
Does the IG book not work the same way? I don't play IG so ultimately it doesn't matter, just curious so I can know what to expect.


Edit; miss your last comment

I haven't seen a "book limit" at any tournaments. I know that the Detachment limit is common.

I've seen both, and a whole host of other limits. 40k tournaments are pretty heavily house ruled, although the ITC seems to have at least made them standard to some degree. It's not as bad as the AoS house rule set I was pointed to when I asked about signing up for one of their tournaments. I think it was over 200 pages.

I was just asking for my personal knowledge. Might benefit my Tau who are currently my weakest competitive army at those kind of tournaments.

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

I want to thank you for making sure this conversation devolves into something completely off the rails. It'll be entertaining and wildly off topic

Question, so some tournaments locally limit the amount of books you can use when making an army. So does the Kauyon not count as a separate book, since it's now rolled into the Tau codex? Because I was unaware of this if so.
Does the IG book not work the same way? I don't play IG so ultimately it doesn't matter, just curious so I can know what to expect.


Edit; miss your last comment

I haven't seen a "book limit" at any tournaments. I know that the Detachment limit is common.

I've seen both, and a whole host of other limits. 40k tournaments are pretty heavily house ruled, although the ITC seems to have at least made them standard to some degree. It's not as bad as the AoS house rule set I was pointed to when I asked about signing up for one of their tournaments. I think it was over 200 pages.

I was just asking for my personal knowledge. Might benefit my Tau who are currently my weakest competitive army at those kind of tournaments.

Honestly I have nothing to offer inthe way of experience on this. I just have not run into a book limit. i can see how someoen might think that would make sesne, earlier on. But with the way the game is now presented and expanded, i just dunno.

I run a tournament in which you can only have a third detachment if one of them is a CAD. it removes a ton of abuse. We also don't count the "Super Formations" as a Formation towards or against that limit. So if you want a Decurion, fine. Two of your three detachments can be inside of it and the third will just have to be a CAD. Battle Companies? gone (though this was sort of an unintentional outcome and not one we knew would happen until that Codex dropped). War Convocation? Newp. There again, an unintentional consequence but a welcome one.

We don't do that at all the tournaments. None of the ones i play in have that. But as you say, limitations come in all kinds of forms and for all kinds of reasons.

I actually like that restriction since it does get a good amount of sillyness that is in the game right now

It helps a lot with some things, since you can't use too much of the weird stuff. I usually see it used when newer players are being introduced to the game.

It doesn't address the balance issues with the game however. It still leaves the top 4 codexes in a league all their own however.

Those changes just help Eldar. I'll pass.

Martel732 wrote:
Those changes just help Eldar. I'll pass.

Hehehe. If you say so. But I would point to the winning list at the LVO. SIX detachments. SIX. Seven if you count his Super Detachment (but why would you?)

I am sorry to say that I find SIX detachments in a force pretty much the reason why I agree with so many people about the need for T.O.' to be smart about whose lead they follow. If they follow the ITC's lead, you get SIX detachments winning the thing.

If that isn't silly I don't know what is.

Yes, six detachments is silly, but so is limiting others so the Eldar can field a CAD full of OP units. Eldar win the battle of CADs as well.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, six detachments is silly, but so is limiting others so the Eldar can field a CAD full of OP units. Eldar win the battle of CADs as well.

Martel...seriously... SERIOUSLY. An Eldar playr just fielded SIX and you're telling me that your Blood Angels (God love them) couldn't benefit from DISALLOWING that?

Come now.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, six detachments is silly, but so is limiting others so the Eldar can field a CAD full of OP units. Eldar win the battle of CADs as well.

Martel...seriously... SERIOUSLY. An Eldar playr just fielded SIX and you're telling me that your Blood Angels (God love them) couldn't benefit from DISALLOWING that?

Come now.

No, they can't. Because unit for unit, they're just that much better. Their TROOPS have S6 36" guns. I'm sure some other list might benefit, but BA are too far gone I think. But even then, Gladius is something marines have to give them a chance against Eldar. Taking that away seems silly to me.

Sigh.

Back to the Astra Militarum thing. Im gonna make you love them Angels again if it kills me bro.

So this has devolved from offering advice to a new IG player to arguing about Eldar again. Oh joy.

You don't take away the gladius, it's a 2 book limit. They can still use it.
It stops things like formation 1, formation 2, allies, then another formation kinda stuff.

I'm not claiming it balances the game perfectly. The best 4 codexes are still the best 4, it just makes the game a little easier to learn and handle for newer players.

That's all I claimed it did and what the purpose is.

 War Kitten wrote:
So this has devolved from offering advice to a new IG player to arguing about Eldar again. Oh joy.

Of course it did, War Kitten.

The trolls are out in force tonight, and for those of you following along at home, we all know whom I'm referring to here.

There's a reason I stopped replying at page 3.

Lastly, as a personal aside, if we allow supplements, formations, and decurions et-al, then there's literally no reason to disallow Forgeworld stuff to a point. Limit it as needed, but if I as a guard player want to field a pair of Griffon heavy mortar tanks, or a Medusa, or a Lightning fighter, then I should be allowed to do so, tournament or not. It's just asinine to say forgeworld/Imperial Armor units are off limits but formations and supplemental rules are somehow ok. That's childish.

If you're worried about someone bringing a LoW titan or superheavy, then limit the max number of hull points any one unit or squadron can have while you're making up whatever arbitrary tournament restrictions you want to put into place.

Just my opinion. Can't wait to see how much further this devolves before finally getting locked.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Vaktathi wrote:
the problem is that its not how guard works in general... the army isnt meant to be fast, its supposed to overwhelm with numbers and firepower... their numbers arent particularly impressive anymore... and their firepower is thoroughly mediocre, equalled or openly outmatched by far more versatile and less firepower dependent armies.

Fair point, and forgive me for editing you. I do think Wyverns, Vultures, Punishers, and even Lasguns can be pretty decent in terms of wound stacking but you still need enablers like Prescience and Misfortune. Psykana has a lot of potential for Guard on that front.

- Battle Group Command : CCS, Chimera
- Armored Company : Tank Commander w/2x Vanquishers, 3x Punishers, 5x Lascannons, 3x Enginseers
- Psykana Division : Primaris Psyker (ML2), 3x Wyrdvanes, 3x Commissars

Special Rules:
- Orders on 3D6, pick two lowest values (global)
- 3x Orders on CCS, 24" range
- BS4 tanks within 12" of command tank
- Reroll Pen hits within 12" of Enginseer
- Tank shock modifiers (-1 LD and +1 Str)
- Primaris Psyker gains 1x ML and knows powers for every Wrydvanes within 12"
- Wyrdvanes with attached Commissar harness on 2+, removes model on Perils

Abilities:
- 3x Orders (CCS)
- Tank Orders (Tank Command)
- 3x PotMS, 3x Repair (Enginseer)
- 8WC with special casting rules (Psykers)
- Summary Execution (Commissars)

That's a pretty decent psychic and shooting phase. What's lacking is any capability in the movement and assault phase, to efficiently take objectives and screen vulnerable flanks. I guess the next step is Obsec troops. If you want to max MSU can get a supporting CAD with a LC and 70x Infantry (2x PCS, 6x Infantry Squad). You have 65pts left for something. A Wyvern maybe? So the total firepower is:

- 2x Vanquisher Cannons, 5x Lascannons (3x firing independently with PotMS)
- 60x S5 Punisher shots
- 2x Stormshard shots (S4 AP6, Heavy 2, 3" Barrage, Ignores Cover, Shred)
- 60x S3 Lasgun shots (doubled at 12")
- 25x S3 Laspistol shots
- 1x Force Axe, 3x Servo-Arms (2x Str, AP1)

So 5x Russ hulls, 2x Chimeras hulls, 98x bodies of which 70x are Obsec, and tons of Psychic potential to make key units more resilient or more dangerous.

That actually seems be a pretty fluffy build as far as Guard goes. Firepower is good, presence is are good, lots of orders, lots of enablers, lots of special rules. But of course CAD Obsec is going to fall short against something like Battle Company. If you had something like 300+ points for free Lascannons/Meltabombs/Power Axes and it would seem a lot more fair.

 Yoyoyo wrote:
If you had something like 300+ points for free Lascannons/Meltabombs/Power Axes and it would seem a lot more fair.

New Formation: Administratum Error.
Build a regular army from the selected guard units.
When you arrive in store, find another guard game in progress and borrow up to half the units now in play.

His game continues as normal and you play with the extra units who are treated as Allies of convenience.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Yoyoyo wrote:
If you had something like 300+ points for free Lascannons/Meltabombs/Power Axes and it would seem a lot more fair.

New Formation: Administratum Error.
Build a regular army from the selected guard units.
When you arrive in store, find another guard game in progress and borrow up to half the units now in play.

His game continues as normal and you play with the extra units who are treated as Allies of convenience.

Nice, though I would just settle for an extra 50% of free points per game. Hell, I might actually stand a chance if I had that.