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Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, I am on about Codex Space Smurf Marines whom are in every way shape and form superior to a Guardsman for what they cost. I know that the BA are in a bad place right now and I understand your frustration but please do not take my words out of context.

About the Taurox Prime, I seem to have made a couple of mistakes regarding its stats. Well I am glad that it does not need to have to pay to become fast and it actually has a semi decent BS but what it still costs more than it is worth. If it was AV11/11/10 and cost 70 points then maybe it would be a viable choice but as it is the Prime is too soft for what it costs. Maybe a future codex will increase its viability but that is a question for another day.

The actual marines are the same, though. So aren't the problem. In fact, they lose ground on guardsmen every time GW publishes a 7.5 codex.

Taurox Primes sound a lot like BA razor backs. Which I have largely stopped using.

If that is the case then why are Imperial Guard players calling for buffs?

Same reason BA players are calling for buffs. Although the things in the IG that need buffed aren't the guardsmen. Almost all of your problems are linked to vehicle rules in 7th. Guardsmen + misfortune + FRFSF is better firepower than anything in the BA codex and probably better than anything in the marine codex except grav cents.

If you are running blobguard yes, at which point you suffer the problem that is keeping the blob alive long enough to make effective contact with the enemy as just about everything out there will eat 50 Guardsmen in a few turns. Several blasts and heavy weapon barrages followed up with bolter fire will wipe out a blob section before it can even fire a shot.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Same reason BA players are calling for buffs. Although the things in the IG that need buffed aren't the guardsmen. Almost all of your problems are linked to vehicle rules in 7th. Guardsmen + misfortune + FRFSF is better firepower than anything in the BA codex and probably better than anything in the marine codex except grav cents.

Actually yes, Guardsmen do need buffs. We pay Marine prices for Special/Heavy Weapons on a far far far less reliable platform. Add in the fact that if you want to utilize Orders you're essentially having to play Psyker with a tiny range and it becomes a real issue.

Well Imperial heavy weapons are a lost cause in general. So I guess that those and the special could use a discount for guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, I am on about Codex Space Smurf Marines whom are in every way shape and form superior to a Guardsman for what they cost. I know that the BA are in a bad place right now and I understand your frustration but please do not take my words out of context.

About the Taurox Prime, I seem to have made a couple of mistakes regarding its stats. Well I am glad that it does not need to have to pay to become fast and it actually has a semi decent BS but what it still costs more than it is worth. If it was AV11/11/10 and cost 70 points then maybe it would be a viable choice but as it is the Prime is too soft for what it costs. Maybe a future codex will increase its viability but that is a question for another day.

The actual marines are the same, though. So aren't the problem. In fact, they lose ground on guardsmen every time GW publishes a 7.5 codex.

Taurox Primes sound a lot like BA razor backs. Which I have largely stopped using.

If that is the case then why are Imperial Guard players calling for buffs?

Same reason BA players are calling for buffs. Although the things in the IG that need buffed aren't the guardsmen. Almost all of your problems are linked to vehicle rules in 7th. Guardsmen + misfortune + FRFSF is better firepower than anything in the BA codex and probably better than anything in the marine codex except grav cents.

If you are running blobguard yes, at which point you suffer the problem that is keeping the blob alive long enough to make effective contact with the enemy as just about everything out there will eat 50 Guardsmen in a few turns. Several blasts and heavy weapon barrages followed up with bolter fire will wipe out a blob section before it can even fire a shot.

I've seen it happen a lot, though. Against good lists, too. Also, if your opponent has bolters, thank the Emperor, because that could have been a real weapon. Lots of lists aren't using blasts anymore, because MCs laugh at blasts. Play counter meta. The IG can, the BA, not so much. It's not like there aren't a lot of other units you can add to guard blob. It costs about as much as a SG death star and is so very much better.

Furthermore, if you run enough psykers to get a couple misfortune dudes, you'll probably have the 4++ power, which makes your blob basically immortal.

IG needs to suck it up and leave all the Leman Russes at home. D weapons, haywire, hull points, and lack of behemoth have ruined them. Bring the things that work now. Quit spending big points on liabilities. Yeah, it's annoying, but this is coming from someone who has had 85% of a codex wallpapered. (Borrowing a card game term)

Theres not too much alternative, the (non ordnance)Russ tanks are the most capable things in the book for the most part, it largely goes downhill from there. Theres not terribly much "counter meta" one can do. BA's arent great, but lets not make it out like theyre any more helpless than IG are, theyre both actually pretty balanced against each other, and id take either over CSM's or a MT list in a tournament.

I'm struggling these days to think of what a strong Guard (and only Guard) list would look like.

Arty formation with a standard CAD CCS+Mechvets? Armoured Company with Arty formation? Ally in the FW ABG Beast-HunterQuisher?

If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

A strong Guard list is Skitarii.

I really hate to say that, but Skitarii? They're what Guard SHOULD be with this edition. Army-wide buffs rather than "Dave tells Infantry Squad 236 to look left! IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE!" styled Orders.

 Kanluwen wrote:
A strong Guard list is Skitarii.

I really hate to say that, but Skitarii? They're what Guard SHOULD be with this edition. Army-wide buffs rather than "Dave tells Infantry Squad 236 to look left! IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE!" styled Orders.

I started laughing, now I'm crying.

Oh man, the Skitarii are great infantry, and the Vanguards are everything I always wanted Stormtroopers to ever be.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm struggling these days to think of what a strong Guard (and only Guard) list would look like.

Arty formation with a standard CAD CCS+Mechvets? Armoured Company with Arty formation? Ally in the FW ABG Beast-HunterQuisher?

If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

I'd start with lots of divination psykers. I don't know the specifics. It seems to be that orders + divinations buffs + tons of shots seems better than anything BA or CSM could hope to field.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm struggling these days to think of what a strong Guard (and only Guard) list would look like.

Arty formation with a standard CAD CCS+Mechvets? Armoured Company with Arty formation? Ally in the FW ABG Beast-HunterQuisher?

If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

Well the new formations create another opportunity to look at it anew, right? The Cadian Battlegroup makes a blob more scary although honestly the loss of Objective Secured bothers me too much to take advantage of that so i might still keep the blob in a CAD. The Emperors Wrath Artillery Company is truly fearsome. Twin-linked artillery with orders? Yes please? And the Enginseers as I pointed out in my recnt blog entry can effectively let Wyverns or Hydras to split their fire up, devastating a much larger number of targets.
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/01/astra-militarum-enginseers-for-win.html

I feel as if the blob in a CAD and the Emperors Wrath Artillery Company would be a serious contender for inclusion in a strong IG list.

 Blacksails wrote:
If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

I don't know the list itself but I know what you need:

- Deployment options
- Reserves manipulation
- Mobility
- Firepower
- Board Presence (MSU or summoning)
- Resiliency (in some form)

I think a lot of Guard players have had trouble adjusting to Maelstrom, Pask/Meltavets/Tanks is too slow and Blobs have their own problems.

I'd definitely look at those Renegades lists to see what they're doing right.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

I don't know the list itself but I know what you need:

- Deployment options
- Reserves manipulation
- Mobility
- Firepower
- Board Presence (MSU or summoning)
- Resiliency (in some form)

I think a lot of Guard players have had trouble adjusting to Maelstrom, Pask/Meltavets/Tanks is too slow and Blobs have their own problems.

It's not a question of Maelstrom. It's a question of the mechanics of the army as a whole.

Guard Infantry are paying an obscene amount of points for Heavy Weapons Teams and Special Weapons on models. Guard armor isn't reliable anymore. Guard Orders are impressive on paper, terrible in practice(LD checks are dumb for benefits that should be army-wide or something of that nature and needing to be declared in advance) and don't apply to vehicles.

The list goes on.

I'd definitely look at those Renegades lists to see what they're doing right.

Most of the Renegades lists, from my understanding, take advantage of the fact that Renegades have access to "Recycling" units and a great many of things that Guard don't.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

I don't know the list itself but I know what you need:

- Deployment options
- Reserves manipulation
- Mobility
- Firepower
- Board Presence (MSU or summoning)
- Resiliency (in some form)

I think a lot of Guard players have had trouble adjusting to Maelstrom, Pask/Meltavets/Tanks is too slow and Blobs have their own problems.

It's not a question of Maelstrom. It's a question of the mechanics of the army as a whole.

Guard Infantry are paying an obscene amount of points for Heavy Weapons Teams and Special Weapons on models. Guard armor isn't reliable anymore. Guard Orders are impressive on paper, terrible in practice(LD checks are dumb for benefits that should be army-wide or something of that nature and needing to be declared in advance) and don't apply to vehicles.

The list goes on.

I'd definitely look at those Renegades lists to see what they're doing right.

Most of the Renegades lists, from my understanding, take advantage of the fact that Renegades have access to "Recycling" units and a great many of things that Guard don't.

The orders actually CAN affect vehicles when Pask or when you use the new Formation. Take a look at it.

Guard are impressive in reality as well as on paper because its just hard to get enough TIME to kill them all. they're like a wave of humanity which challenges you to even have enough bullets left at the end to kill them all.

If you keep trying tochest up to enemies with large scale models like Chimera spam, and LemanRuss walls, you're going to leasrn the most painful lesson anyone in 7E ever learns: melee isn't dead.

To wit: my friend who is a casual player brought his wall of iron and also SIX...yes SIX... huge artillery barrages that he can fire and you cant stop them. some Forge World thing. just choose any spot and scatter away.

What he learned by tuyrn two is that units can sneak up on you from reserves while others rush you and prepare.The Wall of Iron simply cant kill everything. And then the multiassaults happen and all of a sudden: no more Leman Russ tanks.

Trying to play that game with Guard just isn't the path to victory. sure, there will be good matches. but dang... The Tau Empire sincerely hope you plan on using armor to attack them. Sincerely.

that's WHY I gravitated so much to more bodies. I find that in the absolute worst of circumstances, I am at minimum difficult to remove and in an objective based game, this is a win. And i am also plenty of firepower to end the MOST powerful thing they have. i might not be able to drop ALL their most powerful things in one go but i can take one down and one counts for a lot if its in the ITC.

I also find that i can be more places when i don't commit to armor. Armor is good and if its a Taurox Prime it can be very fast and once I can GET places, I'm good to go.

I find that reserves help me make certain the enemy's superior firepower doesn't have enough time to do its grisly work. I use the math against them and say to them "Given enough time you might have tabled me...so i am stealing time from you".

I find that with Guard, as compared to guards armor, i can protect my firepower longer.

So for a lot of reasons, the massive guardsman and some speedy Taurox Primes has become a really effective way to play for me.

in a normal straight up Guard army, I dedicate myself to two blobs and Coteaz joins the party as an ally.

Wyverns definitely deserve to be in any Guard list. They are just awesome sauce. I think a Manticore is a must given that they can kill multi-wound models like fast moving Spawn, Grotesques especially and also Beast Packs, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and the list goes on. They can hit an enormous footprint on a good day. So it's just a good solid unit with a utility you don't really have anywhere else in the unit.

That's why I am attracted to this new Artillery Formation. You thought a Wyvern or Manticore were useful before? Psh. and the Enginseers in the unit can really spread the love and make better use of your secondary weapons that would otherwise be wasted.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
If you were to write the strongest Guard only (but FW variants are cool) list, what would you field?

I don't know the list itself but I know what you need:

- Deployment options
- Reserves manipulation
- Mobility
- Firepower
- Board Presence (MSU or summoning)
- Resiliency (in some form)

I think a lot of Guard players have had trouble adjusting to Maelstrom, Pask/Meltavets/Tanks is too slow and Blobs have their own problems.

It's not a question of Maelstrom. It's a question of the mechanics of the army as a whole.

Guard Infantry are paying an obscene amount of points for Heavy Weapons Teams and Special Weapons on models. Guard armor isn't reliable anymore. Guard Orders are impressive on paper, terrible in practice(LD checks are dumb for benefits that should be army-wide or something of that nature and needing to be declared in advance) and don't apply to vehicles.

The list goes on.

I'd definitely look at those Renegades lists to see what they're doing right.

Most of the Renegades lists, from my understanding, take advantage of the fact that Renegades have access to "Recycling" units and a great many of things that Guard don't.

The orders actually CAN affect vehicles when Pask or when you use the new Formation. Take a look at it.

Read the Guard codex. Pask is not able to issue Orders beyond what a Leman Russ Commander has access to from the "Tank Orders" on page 32.
BTW: We're discussing GUARD. Not the Cadian Detachment or Relics; which are very specific. As great as Kabe's Herald and the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company are--they're not in the main Codex, which is what most people are going to refer to.

Additionally? Those are all bandaids covering an issue, not actually fixing it.

Guard are impressive in reality as well as on paper because its just hard to get enough TIME to kill them all. they're like a wave of humanity which challenges you to even have enough bullets left at the end to kill them all.

Who needs bullets when you have blast templates?

The rest of your post is not really worth replying to as it's a nonsensical mess of anecdotes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Read the Guard codex. Pask is not able to issue Orders beyond what a Leman Russ Commander has access to from the "Tank Orders" on page 32.
BTW: We're discussing GUARD. Not the Cadian Detachment or Relics; which are very specific. As great as Kabe's Herald and the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company are--they're not in the main Codex, which is what most people are going to refer to.

Additionally? Those are all bandaids covering an issue, not actually fixing it.

Who needs bullets when you have blast templates?

The rest of your post is not really worth replying to as it's a nonsensical mess of anecdotes.

You disagree with me by agreeing with me? Lol. Yes I know he "only" gets those orders. So what. He gets them. And the Artillery Batteries can get them now too. So your point is moot. IN fact.

The Cadian Detachment is in fact a thing, so saying we're "talking about Guard" without talking about ALL of Guard is pointless and pedantic.

And you CALL them Band-Aids but the actual fact is they are ACTUALLY canon parts of the Codex now...Just like Mont'ka and Kauyon are for Tau,. Yup. Truuuuuue story.

The people who need bullets are the ones who fire blast templates at spread out guard with 4+ invuls, since you ask. Blasts aren't the entire answer, and in a five round tournament, I imagine you wont see an enormous concentration of blast weapons, but if you do, the answer is the same.

And "anecdotes" is what someone says when they want to ignore actualized results. So you can say what you like but you're off base here.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Read the Guard codex. Pask is not able to issue Orders beyond what a Leman Russ Commander has access to from the "Tank Orders" on page 32.
BTW: We're discussing GUARD. Not the Cadian Detachment or Relics; which are very specific. As great as Kabe's Herald and the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company are--they're not in the main Codex, which is what most people are going to refer to.

Additionally? Those are all bandaids covering an issue, not actually fixing it.

Who needs bullets when you have blast templates?

The rest of your post is not really worth replying to as it's a nonsensical mess of anecdotes.

You disagree with me by agreeing with me? Lol. Yes I know he "only" gets those orders. So what. He gets them. And the Artillery Batteries can get them now too. So your point is moot. IN fact.

"Tank Commander Orders" aren't Orders in the sense that most Guard players think of them. They're affecting the Tank Commander and his mandatory tank bodyguard.

Artillery Batteries cannot get Orders. They can only receive them as part of Emperor's Wrath.

The Cadian Detachment is in fact a thing, so saying we're "talking about Guard" without talking about ALL of Guard is pointless and pedantic.

Is it in the Astra Militarum Codex?

No. Supplemental material is just that: supplemental material.

And you CALL them Band-Aids but the actual fact is they are ACTUALLY canon parts of the Codex now...Just like Mont'ka and Kauyon are for Tau,. Yup. Truuuuuue story.

The material in Kau'yon for Tau is in their new Codex, which is (truuuuuue story) an updated Codex. Mont'ka is a supplement for Codex: Tau Empire.

"Canon" has no meaning in this conversation.

The Cadian Battle Group is its own unique Detachment. You can also, at any point in time, declare that your CAD is a Cadian Detachment and use the Relics.

The people who need bullets are the ones who fire blast templates at spread out guard with 4+ invuls, since you ask. Blasts aren't the entire answer, and in a five round tournament, I imagine you wont see an enormous concentration of blast weapons, but if you do, the answer is the same.

4+ invuls can still be failed on a 1, 2, or 3.

And if someone's playing the new Cadian Battle Group, there's only so much room that they will have in their deployment zone if taking an ESIC as their Core choice.

And "anecdotes" is what someone says when they want to ignore actualized results. So you can say what you like but you're off base here.

"Anecdotes" is what someone says when replying to a rambling story that has very little merit for the purposes of a discussion.

I agree with Kan that the new formations are band-aids...and not great ones either.

I also agree that a string of anecdotes doesn't really add much.

That said, at least the arty formation is worth using, though I'm going to explore those renegade options that seemed to appear near the top of the LVO results. The latest renegades list is Siege of Vraks 2nd Ed, right?

 Blacksails wrote:
I agree with Kan that the new formations are band-aids...and not great ones either.

Honestly, I like most of them. I dislike the Ogryn one(it should require a lot less models and should allow you to mix 'n' match) and I feel like the ESIP/ESIC can feel a lot more accessible to players if you alter the "Minimum of 5 Infantry Squads" to "Minimum of 5 Squads with the Infantry Type".

The initial promo stuff we had for the ESIP had a Command Squad, three boxes of Cadians, and two Heavy Weapons Squad boxes--exactly 5 squads with the Infantry type.

That said, at least the arty formation is worth using, though I'm going to explore those renegade options that seemed to appear near the top of the LVO results. The latest renegades list is Siege of Vraks 2nd Ed, right?

I think the latest Renegades list is in IA13, "War Machines of the Lost and the Damned".

 Kanluwen wrote:


"Tank Commander Orders" aren't Orders in the sense that most Guard players think of them. They're affecting the Tank Commander and his mandatory tank bodyguard.

Artillery Batteries cannot get Orders. They can only receive them as part of Emperor's Wrath.

.

So...again...Im right...and you're arguing with me by agreeing. Again. Lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Supplemental material is just that: supplemental material.

Again: irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:


The material in Kau'yon for Tau is in their new Codex, which is (truuuuuue story) an updated Codex. Mont'ka is a supplement for Codex: Tau Empire.
.

You're actually wrong again! Have you even looked? LOOK in your Tau Codex. Now LOOK in your Kauyon book. Now tell me what ISN'T in the Tau codex. Then come and apologize for again being wrong.

It's really not that complicated Kanluwen. Maelstrom objectives and ITC format requires speed and presence. You need to be aggressive and the primary mechanic is mobility. Look at the top LVO lists from the last two years - Outflank, Deepstrike, Infiltration, Drop Pod Assault, Jump/Jetpack/Bike units. That's not at all how mech Guard works. A generic 1850pt list might look like this:

CAD
- Tank Commander (Pask - Punisher, Executioner)
- Meltavets w/Chimera
- Meltavets w/Chimera
- Meltavets w/Chimera
- Vulture
- Leman Russ
- Leman Russ
Arty Formation
- CCS w/Chimera
- Enginseer
- Manticore
- Wyvern
- Wyvern

The only unit that can move 12" and shoot properly is the Vulture. Nothing at all can be pushed onto objectives aggressively, and the entire list crumples in assault. If hustling to score VPs destroys your firepower, you don't have enough firepower to make VPs irrelevant, and you have nothing except firepower available to control the midfield, you are going to lose.

Its sad that maelstrom is the new standard. What an awful game mode.

Thanks Kan, I'll look into it.

 Blacksails wrote:
Its sad that maelstrom is the new standard. What an awful game mode.

Thanks Kan, I'll look into it.

You don't like Maelstrom? It's my favorite mode, but I don't think it makes as much sense in Tournaments. certain armies like Astra Militarum do indeed have to work a little harder to get to far flung places. I think that tournaments may wish to use the Eternal War missions more than the ITC ones.

And an ITC tournament does NOT have to use ITC missions. So I mean: T.O.'s are free to decide what they wanna' do.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


"Tank Commander Orders" aren't Orders in the sense that most Guard players think of them. They're affecting the Tank Commander and his mandatory tank bodyguard.

Artillery Batteries cannot get Orders. They can only receive them as part of Emperor's Wrath.

.

So...again...Im right...and you're arguing with me by agreeing. Again. Lol.

Wyvern, Hydra, Manticores, and Deathstrikes only can receive orders as part of the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company(read: Artillery COMPANY, not Artillery BATTERIES).

Ordnance BATTERIES are something specific from FW's IA1. They cannot receive Orders. They consist of Basilisks, Griffons, Medusas, or Colossi.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Supplemental material is just that: supplemental material.

Again: irrelevant.

You're the one trying to nitpick here, bud. It's perfectly relevant when you're wrong.

 Kanluwen wrote:


The material in Kau'yon for Tau is in their new Codex, which is (truuuuuue story) an updated Codex. Mont'ka is a supplement for Codex: Tau Empire.
.

You're actually wrong again!

Kauyon pg 56 wrote:As well as containing the brand new Fortification rules, this chapter of the book is designed to be used in conjunction with Codex: Tau Empire(2012) to provide players with all of the new rules found in Codex: Tau Empire(2015). The following rules in Codex: Tau Empire(2012) have also been updated to reflect changes introduced by the new codex:

Got an anecdote about that? Because yeah, it's pretty clear that Kauyon was intended to be an update for the previous Tau Codex so players didn't have to buy the book again if they didn't want to.

Mont'ka does not do the same for Guard, just like Kauyon did not do it for Space Marines.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's really not that complicated Kanluwen. Maelstrom objectives and ITC format requires speed and presence. You need to be aggressive and the primary mechanic is mobility. Look at the top LVO lists from the last two years - Outflank, Deepstrike, Infiltration, Drop Pod Assault, Jump/Jetpack/Bike units. That's not at all how mech Guard works.

the problem is that its not how guard works in general (not just mech guard), the army has terrible mobility, and when it can muster mobility, it lacks both resiliency and killing power (e.g. MT, Elysians)

A large part of that is by design, the army isnt meant to be fast, its supposed to overwhelm with numbers and firepower. The problem there is that their numbers arent particularly impressive anymore or can be actively used against them (KP's) and their firepower is thoroughly mediocre, equalled or openly outmatched by far more versatile and less firepower dependent armies.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Wyvern, Hydra, Manticores, and Deathstrikes only can receive orders as part of the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company(read: Artillery COMPANY, not Artillery BATTERIES).

Ordnance BATTERIES are something specific from FW's IA1. They cannot receive Orders. They consist of Basilisks, Griffons, Medusas, or Colossi.
s.

Im literally stunned that you think this pendantism is going to in any way change what I said. A barttery can be a battery of one dude. You're grasping. hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:


You're the one trying to nitpick here, bud. It's perfectly relevant when you're wrong.

...but I'm not! so the hilarity continues. You are literally saying something that isnt true! Those rules are 100% Astra militarum rules, useable in ANY game you choose. So no one gives a flying chicken whether you think so or not.

Maybe get back to the tactics and strategy gents.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Got an anecdote about that? Because yeah, it's pretty clear that Kauyon was intended to be an update for the previous Tau Codex so players didn't have to buy the book again if they didn't want to.

Mont'ka does not do the same for Guard, just like Kauyon did not do it for Space Marines.

Yeah I do actually have something to say to that smart guy: It DID update the IG EXACTLY like Kauyon did.

Kauyon has information that neither the new nor the old Tau codex contains. Same as the IG.

If you CHOOSE not to include the new information at your disposal, then choose not to comment further since you will be complaining about a faction whose rules have improved, an improvement you apparently seem unwilling to acknowledge. That's your call. but do not pretend that this spurious argument of yours in any way influences the actual usefulness of these new resources.

So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

/fuelfortheflames

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

/fuelfortheflames

No. My line of reasoning for Forge World went beyond it being "approved". So not the same.

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

I want to thank you for making sure this conversation devolves into something completely off the rails. It'll be entertaining and wildly off topic

Question, so some tournaments locally limit the amount of books you can use when making an army. So does the Kauyon not count as a separate book, since it's now rolled into the Tau codex? Because I was unaware of this if so.
Does the IG book not work the same way? I don't play IG so ultimately it doesn't matter, just curious so I can know what to expect.


Edit; miss your last comment

I don't even understand the disagreement anymore.

My simple contention: Russ hulls are overpriced. Stop using things that are overpriced.