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Martel732 wrote:
I don't even understand the disagreement anymore.

My simple contention: Russ hulls are overpriced. Stop using things that are overpriced.

There's the issue. Most of the units in the book are overpriced. When you start looking at the units that aren't, you're left with little to work with.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't even understand the disagreement anymore.

My simple contention: Russ hulls are overpriced. Stop using things that are overpriced.

It's in some ways similar to the discussions about the CSM codex or any other codex.

When complaining about a codex, how much do you look at? Do you look at the codex itself alone? Allies? FW? Supplements?
Because where you make the line and say "no further" will change your outlook considerably.

Now they are arguing semantics about what is considered the codex alone between two armies because internet and bad charisma scores.


But yes, Russ is way overpriced. Most tanks are, since grav and Str D especially, but even before then tanks were way overpriced.
Even mutilators perform well against them, as do most walkers. That's saying something.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't even understand the disagreement anymore.

My simple contention: Russ hulls are overpriced. Stop using things that are overpriced.

There's the issue. Most of the units in the book are overpriced. When you start looking at the units that aren't, you're left with little to work with.

I think there are elements to the IG that are less overpriced than Russes. Also, blasts are super out of vogue in my meta unless it's an IA, which can trivially get ignores cover. IG should use that to their advantage. Artillery/foot lists don't care about haywire or Str D nearly as much.

Yoyoyo wrote:Maybe get back to the tactics and strategy gents.

MY PLASTIC SOLDIERMEN STRATEGIES ARE BETTER THAN YOU'RES!!1!
But yeah, let's try to not get too heated about this. I do not mean to mock anyone, just trying to lighten it up a bit.

Yoyoyo wrote:It's really not that complicated Kanluwen. Maelstrom objectives and ITC format requires speed and presence. You need to be aggressive and the primary mechanic is mobility. Look at the top LVO lists from the last two years - Outflank, Deepstrike, Infiltration, Drop Pod Assault, Jump/Jetpack/Bike units. That's not at all how mech Guard works. A generic 1850pt list might look like this:

Spoiler:

CAD
- Tank Commander (Pask - Punisher, Executioner)
- Meltavets w/Chimera
- Meltavets w/Chimera
- Meltavets w/Chimera
- Vulture
- Leman Russ
- Leman Russ
Arty Formation
- CCS w/Chimera
- Enginseer
- Manticore
- Wyvern
- Wyvern

The only unit that can move 12" and shoot properly is the Vulture. Nothing at all can be pushed onto objectives aggressively, and the entire list crumples in assault. If hustling to score VPs destroys your firepower, you don't have enough firepower to make VPs irrelevant, and you have nothing except firepower available to control the midfield, you are going to lose.

Unfortunately, RAW you have to take the Command and one of the Core choices for the formation to take the EWAC (at least IIRC). I would love to do the Artillery Company or Vets/Hellhound formation just as their own formation along with a CAD, without the 5 Leman Russ/170 Infantry tax+. I'm sure friendly, sportsmanlike opponents in a casual game would allow it, as the benefits are honestly not that major, but in a tournament, even the nicer players will probably sadly reiterate that it's technically not legal. Shame.

Kanluwen wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I agree with Kan that the new formations are band-aids...and not great ones either.

Honestly, I like most of them. I dislike the Ogryn one(it should require a lot less models and should allow you to mix 'n' match) and I feel like the ESIP/ESIC can feel a lot more accessible to players if you alter the "Minimum of 5 Infantry Squads" to "Minimum of 5 Squads with the Infantry Type".

The initial promo stuff we had for the ESIP had a Command Squad, three boxes of Cadians, and two Heavy Weapons Squad boxes--exactly 5 squads with the Infantry type.

I really hope that they'll change this, but for now we're stuck with gakloads of guardsmen per platoon; in another thread that I'll link (if I can bother myself to search for it) someone emailed GW about the the ESIP set claiming it contains enough for the ESIP formation, and GW replied "Ooh, nice catch! Thanks for letting us know!" and promptly removed "enough to field the ESIP" from the set's description.

Which reminds me, did all hopes of a new Guard codex just die or something with the new Mont'Ka book? There are some changes I feel the army honestly deserves, but I don't want other bad things to happen to the IG (I will cry bitter tears the day Rough Riders are finally cut loose, for as infrequently as I've used them). I'm pretty out of it with gaming news; what was released in January, if anything?

The problem is that everything is overpriced and the nonordnance Russ hulls are generally some of the least overpriced stuff, the alternatives are generally even worse

I mean...whats the alternative...a hellhound or basilisk? One only needs so many wyverns.

Martel732 wrote:


I think there are elements to the IG that are less overpriced than Russes.

Sure. But where's the line?

There's also the implication that even the less overpriced units are still overpriced in general. Which is still an issue for the codex.

*Edit* Ninja'd by Vaktathi.

Maybe I could field some Rough Riders and hope to win while my opponent is distracted laughing.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem is that everything is overpriced and the nonordnance Russ hulls are generally some of the least overpriced stuff, the alternatives are generally even worse

I mean...whats the alternative...a hellhound or basilisk? One only needs so many wyverns.

You will spam Wyverns and you will like it young man!
In my day we spammed Rhinos and we rushed them up the board! Both ways!

Akiasura wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem is that everything is overpriced and the nonordnance Russ hulls are generally some of the least overpriced stuff, the alternatives are generally even worse

I mean...whats the alternative...a hellhound or basilisk? One only needs so many wyverns.

You will spam Wyverns and you will like it young man!
In my day we spammed Rhinos and we rushed them up the board! Both ways!

"You kids have it so easy these days! Back in my day we had to pay for bonuses and transports and wargear!"

IG being bad is the best argument against the claim that GW writes rules trying to take money.

"So, we have an army that includes a huge number of infantry, tons of transports, plenty of tanks, and makes up for low stats with numbers. Oh, and we made it really bad, so nobody will play it."

I guess Orks are the same way...

"...And we had to WORK for the points in our lists! It took me weeks in the mines to field 500 points! And I already had the models!"

 Polonius wrote:
IG being bad is the best argument against the claim that GW writes rules trying to take money.

"So, we have an army that includes a huge number of infantry, tons of transports, plenty of tanks, and makes up for low stats with numbers. Oh, and we made it really bad, so nobody will play it."

I guess Orks are the same way...

Well, I suppose IG are the underdogs even in the fluff, so maybe we should've been prepared for this before we got stuck in this time.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
"...And we had to WORK for the points in our lists! It took me weeks in the mines to field 500 points! And I already had the models!"

You fancy younglins and your dang formations! Whats a formation anyway? Formations in my day were placing all your rhinos as forward as possible and praying to the emperor some made it through the starcannons.

You crazy kids and your data slates. Ain't no data in a slate I'll tell you what.

Gosh I read this thread and I feel so young again

 KommissarKiln wrote:
"...And we had to WORK for the points in our lists! It took me weeks in the mines to field 500 points! And I already had the models!"

 Polonius wrote:
IG being bad is the best argument against the claim that GW writes rules trying to take money.

"So, we have an army that includes a huge number of infantry, tons of transports, plenty of tanks, and makes up for low stats with numbers. Oh, and we made it really bad, so nobody will play it."

I guess Orks are the same way...

Well, I suppose IG are the underdogs even in the fluff, so maybe we should've been prepared for this before we got stuck in this time.

They shouldn't be. Before they go into battle, the enemy positions should be hit with so much artillery there is only one lonely plague marine left standing. GW fluff is stupid gak, and this is another good example of why.

Why sonny...I remember when you only had one detachement, the old FOC...or "CAD" as you whipper snappers call it now. All armies used it, and you could only run one! And allies...? I reckon only if you were running those Inquisition books from back in them thar 3rd ed days.

(I'd dearly love to go back to those days)

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

/fuelfortheflames

No. My line of reasoning for Forge World went beyond it being "approved". So not the same.

This makes no sense. Your claiming that a campaign book that costs money is valid for use for a guard army but a Imperial armor book for guard isn't. Both are supplements.

Akiasura wrote:
You fancy younglins and your dang formations! Whats a formation anyway? Formations in my day were placing all your rhinos as forward as possible and praying to the emperor some made it through the starcannons.

You crazy kids and your data slates. Ain't no data in a slate I'll tell you what.

The only data found in slate are the fossils we found working in the mines! But they only paid us for the coal.

On the topic of formations, it's too bad the IG formations really aren't at the caliber of other armies' formations, with maybe the exception of maybe the artillery one, but it's still probably not quite the same tier, and gosh dangit, we're still paying full points for everything! Including all of the other required choices to even unlock the auxiliary choices!

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

/fuelfortheflames

No. My line of reasoning for Forge World went beyond it being "approved". So not the same.

This makes no sense. Your claiming that a campaign book that costs money is valid for use for a guard army but a Imperial armor book for guard isn't. Both are supplements.

This is typical Jancoran for you. He insists that FW supplement books are illegal and not an option whilst claiming that a supplement book released by GW is.
Then again he also claims that foot blobguard is the ultimate in competitive settings so......

Martel732 wrote:

They shouldn't be. Before they go into battle, the enemy positions should be hit with so much artillery there is only one lonely plague marine left standing. GW fluff is stupid gak, and this is another good example of why.

This is something that I often wish was represented properly, something like the preliminary bombardment rules in Bolt Action. Something that lets me smash my opponent with gack tons of explosives before the game even begins. Actually it is, in a way, linked to another discrepancy that I have: Our vehicles main weapons often have a crazy range but the tiny boards that the game is played on effectively limits how well these units work. I want to be smaccking my opponent as soon as he enters my main guns range, hitting him long before his own guns can shoot. But apparently I have to let him get within range too and give him time to set up his guns and prepare them for firing before I am allowed to engage.

Guard could really benefit from a rule like the Alaitoc craftworld had in the Craftworld supplement.

Might have to change it so it doesn't work on deepstriking squads, but being able to fire before the game starts would make the artillery actually worth taking. Could shake up the meta too, although it'd be hard to write the rules since you'd have to figure out how many hits to give the blast weapons.

Akiasura wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

I want to thank you for making sure this conversation devolves into something completely off the rails. It'll be entertaining and wildly off topic

Question, so some tournaments locally limit the amount of books you can use when making an army. So does the Kauyon not count as a separate book, since it's now rolled into the Tau codex? Because I was unaware of this if so.
Does the IG book not work the same way? I don't play IG so ultimately it doesn't matter, just curious so I can know what to expect.


Edit; miss your last comment

I haven't seen a "book limit" at any tournaments. I know that the Detachment limit is common.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:


This makes no sense. Your claiming that a campaign book that costs money is valid for use for a guard army but a Imperial armor book for guard isn't. Both are supplements.

Actually...to be more accurate... I'm not engaging on the subject at all. If someone wants a thread on Forge World, we could do that again. Sure. Or we could not. Which is kind of the way I'm leaning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

This is typical Jancoran for you. He insists that FW supplement books are illegal and not an option whilst claiming that a supplement book released by GW is.
Then again he also claims that foot blobguard is the ultimate in competitive settings so......

Misquoting me is a poor way to make a point. Just saying.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

I want to thank you for making sure this conversation devolves into something completely off the rails. It'll be entertaining and wildly off topic

Question, so some tournaments locally limit the amount of books you can use when making an army. So does the Kauyon not count as a separate book, since it's now rolled into the Tau codex? Because I was unaware of this if so.
Does the IG book not work the same way? I don't play IG so ultimately it doesn't matter, just curious so I can know what to expect.


Edit; miss your last comment

I haven't seen a "book limit" at any tournaments. I know that the Detachment limit is common.

I've seen both, and a whole host of other limits. 40k tournaments are pretty heavily house ruled, although the ITC seems to have at least made them standard to some degree. It's not as bad as the AoS house rule set I was pointed to when I asked about signing up for one of their tournaments. I think it was over 200 pages.

I was just asking for my personal knowledge. Might benefit my Tau who are currently my weakest competitive army at those kind of tournaments.

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So ah...i take it your attitude on FW has changed then? Because the line of thinking your espousing here applies every bit as well to FW.

I want to thank you for making sure this conversation devolves into something completely off the rails. It'll be entertaining and wildly off topic

Question, so some tournaments locally limit the amount of books you can use when making an army. So does the Kauyon not count as a separate book, since it's now rolled into the Tau codex? Because I was unaware of this if so.
Does the IG book not work the same way? I don't play IG so ultimately it doesn't matter, just curious so I can know what to expect.


Edit; miss your last comment

I haven't seen a "book limit" at any tournaments. I know that the Detachment limit is common.

I've seen both, and a whole host of other limits. 40k tournaments are pretty heavily house ruled, although the ITC seems to have at least made them standard to some degree. It's not as bad as the AoS house rule set I was pointed to when I asked about signing up for one of their tournaments. I think it was over 200 pages.

I was just asking for my personal knowledge. Might benefit my Tau who are currently my weakest competitive army at those kind of tournaments.

Honestly I have nothing to offer inthe way of experience on this. I just have not run into a book limit. i can see how someoen might think that would make sesne, earlier on. But with the way the game is now presented and expanded, i just dunno.

I run a tournament in which you can only have a third detachment if one of them is a CAD. it removes a ton of abuse. We also don't count the "Super Formations" as a Formation towards or against that limit. So if you want a Decurion, fine. Two of your three detachments can be inside of it and the third will just have to be a CAD. Battle Companies? gone (though this was sort of an unintentional outcome and not one we knew would happen until that Codex dropped). War Convocation? Newp. There again, an unintentional consequence but a welcome one.

We don't do that at all the tournaments. None of the ones i play in have that. But as you say, limitations come in all kinds of forms and for all kinds of reasons.

I actually like that restriction since it does get a good amount of sillyness that is in the game right now

It helps a lot with some things, since you can't use too much of the weird stuff. I usually see it used when newer players are being introduced to the game.

It doesn't address the balance issues with the game however. It still leaves the top 4 codexes in a league all their own however.

Those changes just help Eldar. I'll pass.

Martel732 wrote:
Those changes just help Eldar. I'll pass.

Hehehe. If you say so. But I would point to the winning list at the LVO. SIX detachments. SIX. Seven if you count his Super Detachment (but why would you?)

I am sorry to say that I find SIX detachments in a force pretty much the reason why I agree with so many people about the need for T.O.' to be smart about whose lead they follow. If they follow the ITC's lead, you get SIX detachments winning the thing.

If that isn't silly I don't know what is.

Yes, six detachments is silly, but so is limiting others so the Eldar can field a CAD full of OP units. Eldar win the battle of CADs as well.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, six detachments is silly, but so is limiting others so the Eldar can field a CAD full of OP units. Eldar win the battle of CADs as well.

Martel...seriously... SERIOUSLY. An Eldar playr just fielded SIX and you're telling me that your Blood Angels (God love them) couldn't benefit from DISALLOWING that?

Come now.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, six detachments is silly, but so is limiting others so the Eldar can field a CAD full of OP units. Eldar win the battle of CADs as well.

Martel...seriously... SERIOUSLY. An Eldar playr just fielded SIX and you're telling me that your Blood Angels (God love them) couldn't benefit from DISALLOWING that?

Come now.

No, they can't. Because unit for unit, they're just that much better. Their TROOPS have S6 36" guns. I'm sure some other list might benefit, but BA are too far gone I think. But even then, Gladius is something marines have to give them a chance against Eldar. Taking that away seems silly to me.

Sigh.

Back to the Astra Militarum thing. Im gonna make you love them Angels again if it kills me bro.

So this has devolved from offering advice to a new IG player to arguing about Eldar again. Oh joy.