The people who have zero interest in the actual boardgame and toss the contents / sell on ebay?

I feel like it's a dis-service to the actual boardgame and it is actually pretty good. But no some people are not open to trying out new things.

Do you feel this is right?

"Right" has nothing to do with it. They bought it, they can do whatever they want with it.

Fine by me. If they're not interested and it can both recoup some costs while getting the game to someone who doesn't want the minis all the better.

They are smart people?

You bought some cool marines and got a board game as well. Paint them well and play.

Why would I have any thoughts on it? It's nothing to do with me, what people choose to do with the things they buy.


If someone just wants the models, and discards the rest, that's entirely up to them.

People stand in line to buy brand new electronics devices only to make videos of them lighting them on fire or throwing them from the tops of tall buildings. Other people's money has a way of getting spent whether you approve of the expenditure or not. I just hope all these Horus Heresy guys keep buying Space Marines with slightly different helmet styles so the rest of us can occasionally see cool stuff like AdMech and Harlequins getting produced.

My dad buys picture frames to build fish tanks out of them.

People buy things with specific intentions in mind, and there's really nothing to say on the matter unless they're using the products for harmful purposes (like buying plumbing hardware to make pipe bombs. That is an issue).

Whether or not the buyer intends to play the new boardgame is irrelevant. If they are spending money on the product, they can do whatever they want with the product. Great looking minis at a very affordable price? Seems like a pretty good deal.

Honestly, it's their problem, not yours. Betrayal at Calth is a fun thing to play to have a little something else in between. If they're not using 100% of the product they bought, that's their problem.

However, not everyone likes everything and people are not obligated to use it and there is no right or wrong there. BoC is a great deal even if you disregard the boardgame.
I've actually thought about buying one of those boards from ebay in order to have a bigger board, but there's probably going to be expansions and I decided to wait for those.

As someone who did just this I could tell you that Betrayal at Calth was, to me, affordable Horus Heresy tacticals in plastic first and a board game like... tenth. Before Betrayal at Calth 30 Mk. IV tactical marines would run you $300 alone. Now it's only $150 plus 5 multipart plastic cataphracti terminators, two HQs and a Contemptor dread. For a Horus Heresy player Betrayal at Calth was a huge load off of the wallet.

So, yeah, it isn't surprising that people only care about the minis when you consider the context in which the game was released.

Good for them and all the more power to them. If they can get a hook-up for the plasti-crack on the cheap? They can go with their bad selves. I have no qualms at all with someone who goes that route.

Hell, when the re-release of BFG comes out, I'm buying it for the ship models, not the game. Those models (and possible the board itself) will be incredible in a game of Rogue Trader.

Did the same and will do so again. I read through the fluff and then discarded the rest. I use every one of the marines and terminators but I have at least 2 contemptors I will be selling on ebay. Really don't need that many contemptors. As long as GW gets its money and has a winning product they will continue to put out such products(in theory).

If you like the game then great. I just had no interest in it.

It's different from when people bought execution force to get early access to the assassin's.

The game isn't what interested people it was just a great deal for the minis compared to the resin versions.

Who are you to judge others for doing what they want with their property, it's not your money they spent.

I bought it only for the models. I mean, I'm keeping the board game as well, but I'm also planning on using the entire set of models to make a big World Eaters army instead of part Ultramarines part Word Bearers. I have the FW Angron model as well. After I finish up painting my Skyhammer Annihilation Force, I might just start on painting the World Eaters (pre-heresy colors).

SG

DorianGray wrote:
Do you feel this is right?

They bought it, they can do what they like with it. "Right" and "Wrong" don't factor in to it one tiny bit.

I’m not opposed to playing the game. It actually looks fun and well done. But I bought it for the minis. They are all going to be painted to join my Ultras. If/when I play the game, my old dusty BAs will stand in for the WBs.

I haven't yet played the game, but I'm not going to dismiss it just yet; pooling the minis into one army makes playing the BaC game with just the contents difficult, but if I get around to building a traitor set or just a small traitor or CSM warband, I'd like to give it a go at least once or twice.

I'm also not getting rid of those awesome tiles. BaC+Space Hulk+maybe what's in the new Deathwatch game= awesome Zone Mortalis setup...

People actually cared about the boardgame?

I don't know anyone that bought it for the "boardgame", the "boardgame" was there as a marketing freebie to help drive sales of the models, and GW will probably be the first to tell you that.

DorianGray wrote:
The people who have zero interest in the actual boardgame and toss the contents / sell on ebay?

I feel like it's a dis-service to the actual boardgame and it is actually pretty good. But no some people are not open to trying out new things.

Do you feel this is right?

?? Disservice to an inanimate object? It's their property, who cares what they decide to do with it.

Does the ork player that buys space marine vehicles feel bad because they are not using them as space marines? is that a dis-service?
For BaC I got 2 sets to start my Sons of Horus. I am keeping the board tiles to make a large zone mortalis board. I do not feel bad at all for doing this. to paraphrase Cartman "IT'S MY MODELS I DO WHAT I WANT!"

Imagine Tesla produced a box package- it contained a Tesla Roadster and a ticket to enter their brand new Electric Car racing event somewhere you have never heard of or care to go.

It is marketed as an eRacer starter kit and costs 3000 dollarydoos.

Would you begrudge people who bought the box, used the car and did not compete in the race?

I think they are smart. Pretty sexy too.

Each morning I look at one in the mirror and damn is he handsome. I am no expert but I can spot awesomeness when I see it.

 Vaktathi wrote:
People actually cared about the boardgame?

I don't know anyone that bought it for the "boardgame", the "boardgame" was there as a marketing freebie to help drive sales of the models, and GW will probably be the first to tell you that.

The board game as such is totally uninteresting.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
I think they are smart. Pretty sexy too.

Each morning I look at one in the mirror and damn is he handsome. I am no expert but I can spot awesomeness when I see it.

Same. I bought one copy and got a second for Christmas, split a third with a friend. I've now got a space marine company, some cellophane wrapped cardboard tiles and dice I'll never use. No interest in the game at all.

They are just as bad as the people who bought it just for the rules?

This is a strange thread, people get offended for strange reasons.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
This is a strange thread, people get offended for strange reasons.

I find that offensive!


jk.

Its a pretty legal question.
I guess GW tried to get new gamers (aka painters and collectors) into the system.

I bought two just for the models as a cheap way into 30, and will probably buy more down the road, just for more armies.

I have no interest in the board game and had no interest in it when they said it would be a board game. The tiles are nice though, I'll give them that.

The basic point of BaC is to provide 30K-appropriate marines in plastic for a lower price than FW does, so that more people will give it a try and maybe pick up some resin upgrade kits or a tank or two that they otherwise wouldn't (or dreadnought weapons!). The boardgame, whether it's decent or not, is simply a way of selling the set to people who won't play 30K anyway.

It's pretty clever, really. Even if I would like just a set of plastic miniatures and skip the cost of the board and cards and such, it makes some sense for GW to do this.

The "Board game" aspect was likely so that GW could pull the plug on further Heresy miniatures if it didn't sell well. If you look at the options on the Tactical Squads and Terminator squads, it's clear that they were cut with the intention of being standalone box sets. Hell even Forge World has jumped on the bandwagon and are offering starter sets with conversion kits, pretending like the game aspect didn't even exist.

If GW would like to ride on the wave of HH, they should make it easier to get products from FW. But this is (outside of UK) rather expensive.

It comes with a Board Game?

All jokes aside. The reason i'm sure 90% of the people who bought Betrayal at Calth was to gain access to cheap plastic HH marines that they would otherwise have to sell a kidney to get from Forgeworld. Thats why I did it. And thats why 20 other people in my gaming group are now building up 5000 point HH armies. See how that works?

It's the same reason people bought Space Hulk and the Assassin game thing. Models. Thats it. The extra content is a bonus. And thats the main reason why Dreadfleet didn't sell, there were no models included that you could use in Fantasy.

Well...Space Hulk people actually play, I've never seen anyone play Dreadfleet, the Assassins game, or Betrayal at Calth, but I have seen many people play Space Hulk, and I'll play it myself every once in a while

Space Hulk is actually a pretty cool game

And the Terminators are kinda bad to use in 40k, namely because they don't actually fit into squad coherencies all that well (you have basically 2 Assault Termies among an odd number of normal termies).

I've only seen people really use it for the Blood Angel Terminators and Librarian, or the Genesteelers.

That was before the new Blood Angel Terminator Box though too. TBH I think the Space Hulk ones still look better than the new box though.

I use it for the Genestealers.

Because that broodlord is boss. So boss.

I think to myself "well there is someone who knows the value of money and savings". Which is why I bought the thing for the marines, termies, characters, dread, and will probably never play the board game or miss it.

Are we really advocating product misuse shaming?

Their loss. We get cheap Minis

So people didn't buy Assassinorum for the new plastic assassins and fairly nice, unique Chaos models?

Damn.

But please, BaC was meant to be a plasticrack gateway drug into premium Forge World resincrack, nothing more.


Though I did make my third alternate Sicarius from it so, hey.

£95 is an insane price for a gateway product, BaC was a great deal for existing customers but it drives away new customers.

I've only seen people really use it for the Blood Angel Terminators and Librarian, or the Genesteelers.

That was before the new Blood Angel Terminator Box though too. TBH I think the Space Hulk ones still look better than the new box though.

Nah, we do other things

After buying the Assassin game and playing it a bit, then playing the BaC game when a guy at my FLGS bought it, I can saftely ponder...

Who bought these sets for the games?! These games are awful. If ever you needed proof that GW can't write decent rules anymore just look at these two games.

Models are great though. Love my new assassins.

My thoughts?

They can do whatever they want with the product they bought.

No judging either way. As it should be.

BaC was worth it just for the models alone. Whether you're a 40k player, or a 30k one the box was just worth it for the models alone. For me it was an expansion for my Ultramarines first, and a boardgame last. What people do with their money (and the models they might get with it) is their business. Not ours.

Execution force was a decent game but I mostly bought it for the models. I have more Tactical Marines than I need so I have little interest but If i was about to start a marine army it's a great deal.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Execution force was a decent game but I mostly bought it for the models. I have more Tactical Marines than I need so I have little interest but If i was about to start a marine army it's a great deal.

It's a great deal for Space Marine players, it's a great deal for 30k players, heck, it's even a great deal for CSM players (some kitbashing may be required). It's just a great deal in general if you're a MEQ player.

The boardgame is really good and fun though.

GW had people design the rules and boardgame so people could play it.

Sure your main purpose of buying it could have been for the models but why not play the boardgame too?

Because they might not be interested in playing a board game?

In my case I will eventually get around to playing it (probably once I finally get my 2nd box) but for now it is fulfilling its main purpose (in my eyes): being a good core for my Word Bearers.

If they want to play it they can, if not, why in the world should anybody really care?

I'm just amused by my mental image of a bunch of space marines who thought they were being sent to fight each other on Calth being really confused by why they're suddenly part of the same army as each other and why they're suddenly 10,000 years in the future.

DorianGray wrote:
The boardgame is really good and fun though.

GW had people design the rules and boardgame so people could play it.

Sure your main purpose of buying it could have been for the models but why not play the boardgame too?

some of us don't play any games at all, neither board games nor tabletop wargames...
all of my free-time is spent painting...
why play a game when i could be surfing???

i'm a huge fan of the box, though, and can't wait to get a little time in my paint queue to do some 30K painting...
i love the HH books, art, and minis, but have zero interest in gaming of any sort...
i don't see why that would be an issue for anyone...
mkiv is my favorite armor, and now i have enough guys to try my hand at all the Legion schemes!!!

cheers
jah

I bought Betrayal at Calth on EBay. Just the game, no models. For the price I paid I figured I might as well check the game out, using proxies that I already have.

So what do I think of people that bought the game just for the models? Fine by me, as it let me pick up the game cheap.

DorianGray wrote:The people who have zero interest in the actual boardgame and toss the contents / sell on ebay?

I feel like it's a dis-service to the actual boardgame and it is actually pretty good. But no some people are not open to trying out new things.

Do you feel this is right?

My thoughts are. Anybody got a spare Calth Chapy? I need a second one for my Imperial Fists..

Jokes aside. People will buy what they want, for their own reasons and as long as it's not for illegal or harmful reasons or intent? Who cares. I bought a Calth Box to compare their quality with that of my ForgeWorld Marines and things. And that said I'm going to try and pick up a second and sell off the fugly Mono-pose contemptor to give my firsts more tactical Support.

hobojebus wrote:
£95 is an insane price for a gateway product, BaC was a great deal for existing customers but it drives away new customers.

3x Tac Marine Squads.... 75 quid. (Which, given the Crusade List can make 4 different squad types)
Dreadnought (unfair to compare it to FW because it's monopose)... 28 quid.
Terminator Captain ... 12 (ish) quid
Chaplain ... 11 quid
Terminators (Easy to convert to modern termies if you're a stickler for bolter patterns) ... 28 quid


And it's all of similar quality to Forge World (Except Leg-naught). Add up the price in resin and calth suddenly is worth 3x more than what you paid for!

With the new boardgame coming out: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/02/40k-deathwatch-genestealer-broodkin-pics-spotted.html

How many of you guys are going to be buying the boardgame only for the models and throwing out the cardboard in the game?

Disgusting. Shakes head*

Considering, unlike Betrayal At Calth, there isn't as much of a use for the miniatures outside of the game itself... not as many people.

Certainly a lot of people will be buying it for the models first though, rather than for the actual game itself.

Your mad that in a game about cool minis that people bought cool minis at a discount?

hobojebus wrote:
£95 is an insane price for a gateway product, BaC was a great deal for existing customers but it drives away new customers.

Not for WH40K it isn't. That's a fething steal.

DorianGray wrote:
With the new boardgame coming out: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/02/40k-deathwatch-genestealer-broodkin-pics-spotted.html

How many of you guys are going to be buying the boardgame only for the models and throwing out the cardboard in the game?

Disgusting. Shakes head*

why would anybody throw out the cardboard???
even for someone like me, who doesn't play, i can appreciate the artistry that goes into designing the tiles and stuff...
plus, us hobbyists don't really ever throw anything out...
there is always a cunning plan for the future...
sure, i'll personally be buying the Deathwatch game to paint the models, but i'll sell it as a whole package....

hell, with BaC, plenty of people bought just the game, on the cheap, from others who just wanted the models...

cheers
jah

Is this even a real post? Did you seriously just tell 100k people that they're having fun wrong? Sorry I'm still trying to make sense of what I just read because it's so asinine I have a hard time taking it seriously.

It was probably a slow day and he needed something to post.

If I did not already have an excess of SM/CSM minis, I would have bought BAC for the minis and sold the "game".

Unfortunately this is what has happened to every GW board game ever made, that's why intact games like the original HeroQuest and Space Hulk require you to take out a second mortgage to buy. (Okay it's not THAT bad but still.)

On the flip side, if you can get a hold of the rulebook, most of these games work just fine with standard GW models.

DorianGray wrote:
The people who have zero interest in the actual boardgame and toss the contents / sell on ebay?

I feel like it's a dis-service to the actual boardgame and it is actually pretty good. But no some people are not open to trying out new things.

Do you feel this is right?

The entirety of my thoughts on the subject: Meh. Not even worth a value judgement either way.

When every single response on a 3 page thread disagrees with the OP, then the OP is clearly a troll.

If I had the cash to spare, I would pick up BaC, but it would not be for the game.

I wouldn't judge anyone for whether they wanted the game or the models or both - their money = their choice.

 Reavsie wrote:
When every single response on a 3 page thread disagrees with the OP, then the OP is clearly a troll.

People disagreeing with them does not make the OP a troll...

If I still bought anything from GW and wanted to have more Space Marines, I would probably get BaC for the models. I may still keep the game rather than selling it as tiles and things are always handy for other games.

 Psienesis wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
£95 is an insane price for a gateway product, BaC was a great deal for existing customers but it drives away new customers.

Not for WH40K it isn't. That's a fething steal.

Yeah but compare it to non GW starter kits it's a huge asking price for a game you may not even like.

£25 gets you the x-wing starter it's a cheap introduction and if you don't like it you haven't wasted £95.

It's great only compared to other GW intro products but they Arnt a gamers only option.

It's a great buy if your into 30k just not a way to pull in New players.

I'm under no illusion that betrayal at Calth was a 30k starter kit in all but name, and that's why I and my housemate bought it. The game is nice and all, but not one part of me believes that GW intended it to be the next space hulk and not a cheap 30k starter.

I'm not a troll.

I bought BaC when I only play XENOS and have zero interest in 30k, spent the time to paint EVERYTHING, purely to only play the boardgame with friends.

That is dedication.

I will be doing the same for the new OVERKILL DEATHWATCH boardgame when I don't play Space Marines or Tyranids.

So how about that?

I think you're taking all this way too seriously.

You're definitely taking it way too seriously. Congrats on being a hardcore board game fan or whatever I guess? Not everyone is, and most people used it to start or bolster a 30k force. The models are still being used, there's not even a complaint here. You just seem annoyed that people have fun differently to you.

DorianGray wrote:
I'm not a troll.

I think all people who bought the games without any interest in playing them and only for the miniatures should be put to death.

Now THIS is trolling.

I'm curious about something: if I bought a Betrayal at Calth boxed set, started a fire with the cardstock pieces, then melted down the sprues to make some knick knack that I thought was cool, would you call me foolish? The OP's simply asking the same question in a different way. Paying money for a product that contains pieces for a game, then either discarding or not using those pieces is sorta foolish, isn't it?

I agree, people can do with their possessions what they will, but that doesn't preclude me for thinking they're an idiot for doing so.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
I think they are smart. Pretty sexy too.

Each morning I look at one in the mirror and damn is he handsome. I am no expert but I can spot awesomeness when I see it.

How you doin?

It does not bother me in the least, I'm one of those people. I was super excited for plastic Heresy era models and have no desire for the board game itself.

DorianGray wrote:
I'm not a troll.

I bought BaC when I only play XENOS and have zero interest in 30k, spent the time to paint EVERYTHING, purely to only play the boardgame with friends.

That is dedication.

I will be doing the same for the new OVERKILL DEATHWATCH boardgame when I don't play Space Marines or Tyranids.

So how about that?

i paint six hours a day, seven days a week...
i'd say that is pretty dedicated...
i don't get why you are putting people down who have different priorities than you do...
we are all here for a love of the hobby, right???

@the_Armyman: really, calling people idiots for having fun in a different way than you do???
how is it foolish to make a living off of painting minis???
the time that could be spent gaming is spent perfecting painting techniques instead...
i don't think that is foolish at all...
it sure beats getting a real job...

cheers
jah

For £95 British you get the equvilent of nearly £500 of FW stuff, which can easily fill into 30k and 40k armies as Tacticals, Sternguard, Venerable Dreadnoughts, Tactical or Assault Terminators, a Captain and a Chaplain/Chaplain Grimaldus. With a multitude of bits left over include heresy-style Combat Knives, Sharkfin missile launchers, Heavy bolters with a drum mag, Power swords, bolters, couple leftover MkIV helmets, etc, etc. Literally £500 of stuff for a fraction of the price. No guilt whatsoever.

 jah-joshua wrote:

@the_Armyman: really, calling people idiots for having fun in a different way than you do???
how is it foolish to make a living off of painting minis???
the time that could be spent gaming is spent perfecting painting techniques instead...
i don't think that is foolish at all...
it sure beats getting a real job...

I think what you fail to realize that people can think you're an idiot without having a valid reason But, seriously, if all you wanted was the minis, couldn't you simply wait for the inevitable flood of eBayers and only buy what you really wanted/needed? Even if it still cost $150 just to get the minis, isn't that the same thing?

I also think that, while the OP painted with a broad brush, the vast majority of people are buying BaC for "cheap" 30K; which itself is flawed logic. It's cheap when only viewed through the distorted lens of Forgewod's prices. You may be one of the few exceptions to that rule, so taking offense that he lumped you in is sort of baseless.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

@the_Armyman: really, calling people idiots for having fun in a different way than you do???
how is it foolish to make a living off of painting minis???
the time that could be spent gaming is spent perfecting painting techniques instead...
i don't think that is foolish at all...
it sure beats getting a real job...

I think what you fail to realize that people can think you're an idiot without having a valid reason But, seriously, if all you wanted was the minis, couldn't you simply wait for the inevitable flood of eBayers and only buy what you really wanted/needed? Even if it still cost $150 just to get the minis, isn't that the same thing?

I also think that, while the OP painted with a broad brush, the vast majority of people are buying BaC for "cheap" 30K; which itself is flawed logic. It's cheap when only viewed through the distorted lens of Forgewod's prices. You may be one of the few exceptions to that rule, so taking offense that he lumped you in is sort of baseless.

If you want all of the miniatures it's cheaper to buy the box set. Also, how is it flawed logic? BaC IS cheap 30k compared to the Forge World prices and Forge World was previously the only legitimate way to get 30k miniatures. Sure, a mantic army box is reasonably priced by industry standards but you don't get Horus Heresy miniatures with them. People are buying more than just plastic/resin when they get 30k stuff, y'know. They're buying into the setting.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

If you want all of the miniatures it's cheaper to buy the box set. Also, how is it flawed logic? BaC IS cheap 30k compared to the Forge World prices and Forge World was previously the only legitimate way to get 30k miniatures. Sure, a mantic army box is reasonably priced by industry standards but you don't get Horus Heresy miniatures with them. People are buying more than just plastic/resin when they get 30k stuff, y'know. They're buying into the setting.

I know there is no possible way I can convince you that what you just said is wrong, but I want you to consider an example of how I view that type of thinking:

Aquafina is bottled by Coca-Cola from municipal water supplies in Atlanta, GA. People in Atlanta, GA purchase Aquafina water and drink it, even though, barring a few minor mineral additions, it is still just tap water.

You view 30K miniatures as necessary to "legitimately" playing 30K, when 30K is really just reskinned 40K, being sold to you by a company called Forgeworld which is really just Games Workshop. In your mind, a marine in Mk7 armor is not the same as a marine in Mk3 armor, even though they have the exact same statline and carry the exact same gear. FW has convinced you that their tactical marines are superior to GW's tactical marines mainly through pricing.

We have well and truly gone down a rabbit hole that I never intended, but there it is. And I'm not even defending the OP's premise

I don't play Horus Heresy for the stats. I play it for the awesome setting and fluff. And in that awesome setting Mk. 7 power armor was not used until the very last year of the Horus Heresy and even then only for like one battle. I don't pay extra for Mk. 4, Cataphractii or Sicarans because some guy managed to convince me that they are somehow better. If I wanted an optimal army a 40k Space Marine force with Grav spam would do it better and for probably less. I buy this stuff to build a thematic army that represents my chosen army at that particular point in time. But if you can't see the appeal of models beyond statline I guess I can't really convince you why people think BaC was a great value.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

@the_Armyman: really, calling people idiots for having fun in a different way than you do???
how is it foolish to make a living off of painting minis???
the time that could be spent gaming is spent perfecting painting techniques instead...
i don't think that is foolish at all...
it sure beats getting a real job...

I think what you fail to realize that people can think you're an idiot without having a valid reason But, seriously, if all you wanted was the minis, couldn't you simply wait for the inevitable flood of eBayers and only buy what you really wanted/needed? Even if it still cost $150 just to get the minis, isn't that the same thing?

I also think that, while the OP painted with a broad brush, the vast majority of people are buying BaC for "cheap" 30K; which itself is flawed logic. It's cheap when only viewed through the distorted lens of Forgewod's prices. You may be one of the few exceptions to that rule, so taking offense that he lumped you in is sort of baseless.

i think what you fail to realize, is that calling people idiots for enjoying themselves is rude, especially when we are all here to enjoy toy soldiers...
the whole point of buying the box was that i wanted all of the minis...
then there is the fact that 25% off was readily available for preorders, so no, waiting for eBayers would not have been the same...

i wasn't offended by the OP, but i was offering a non-gamer's perspective on the subject...
keep in mind, i work very hard to be one of the exceptions...
it's not like it is easy to develop the skills, name, and style to stand-out in a hobby of thousands of great painters...
i have to bust my ass to earn my money...
it's not like the ability to make a living off of painting was just handed to me on a silver platter, so yeah, i feel like my opinion is just as valid as any gamer's...

as for your response to TheCustomLime, i get that you are jaded about pricing, but there is a huge aesthetic difference between mkvii and mkiii...
for some people, that difference is pointless...
for others, it's huge, and as he said, it's about the setting just as much as it is about the style of the little plastic pieces...
the whole point of painting is to bring the setting to life on the tabletop, which is where 99% of my minis end up...
you seem to think that people who enjoy the setting have been hoodwinked...
over 30 years of fun and stimulated imagination is something to embrace and be happy about...

cheers
jah

I am amazed at how many people have commented on this thread considering past threads the op has started including the ever so ridiculous "Eldar are the greatest threat to the Imperium and thus need to be taken out first" thread.

This thread - like the aforementioned thread - only seemingly served to show that the Dakka dakka community at large can come together and nigh unanimously disagree with the op.

Why does it matter what people spend their money on OP?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Why does it matter what people spend their money on OP?

Beat me to it. What people decide to spend their money on is their business. Unless you know, they're planning to buy guns to kill people or various other criminal activities.

If someone's more interested in the models than they are the game, that's fine.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Why does it matter what people spend their money on OP?

Exactly. This box set is perfect to make the core of your 30k Army. MANY people are doing this and are excited about this opportunity to get into the HH style of play. The new models look great, if you like MKIV armor. I prefer MKIII, but that's beside the point.

When the HH books came out, I bought the MKIII minis, the MKIII shoulder pads, the special pattern bolters, and based them on Secret Weapon Miniature resin bases because I want my Horus Heresy army that I was super-stoked about to look bitchin'.

That isn't about FW brainwashing me.

It's about me taking pride in my HH army.

Rock out with your cock out, Sons of Dorn!

 the_Armyman wrote:


I think what you fail to realize that people can think you're an idiot without having a valid reason But, seriously, if all you wanted was the minis, couldn't you simply wait for the inevitable flood of eBayers and only buy what you really wanted/needed? Even if it still cost $150 just to get the minis, isn't that the same thing?

I also think that, while the OP painted with a broad brush, the vast majority of people are buying BaC for "cheap" 30K; which itself is flawed logic. It's cheap when only viewed through the distorted lens of Forgewod's prices. You may be one of the few exceptions to that rule, so taking offense that he lumped you in is sort of baseless.

Its not even just cheap by comparison to FW, its cheap compared to most box sets coming out from Games Workshop themselves. The same number of Tac Squads and Terminators would cost $220, the price jumps over $300 Dollars if you add in a Chaplain, Terminator Captain and Dreadnaught.

So no, I'll buy the 150 dollar box and ignore the boardgame components beyond looking at them and going, well that is some nice quality.

DorianGray wrote:
The people who have zero interest in the actual boardgame and toss the contents / sell on ebay?

I feel like it's a dis-service to the actual boardgame and it is actually pretty good. But no some people are not open to trying out new things.

Do you feel this is right?

I think you are welcome to your opinion, however snobbish and exclusive.

 the_Armyman wrote:
I'm curious about something: if I bought a Betrayal at Calth boxed set, started a fire with the cardstock pieces, then melted down the sprues to make some knick knack that I thought was cool, would you call me foolish? The OP's simply asking the same question in a different way. Paying money for a product that contains pieces for a game, then either discarding or not using those pieces is sorta foolish, isn't it?

I agree, people can do with their possessions what they will, but that doesn't preclude me for thinking they're an idiot for doing so.

This is a ridiculous premise.

It's foolish to buy something when you don't want all of the contents even if buying that package is cheaper than just buying the things that you want?

You'd better tell that to all of the people that have been buying the getting started bundles despite not wanting all of the contents.

 the_Armyman wrote:
I'm curious about something: if I bought a Betrayal at Calth boxed set, started a fire with the cardstock pieces, then melted down the sprues to make some knick knack that I thought was cool, would you call me foolish? The OP's simply asking the same question in a different way. Paying money for a product that contains pieces for a game, then either discarding or not using those pieces is sorta foolish, isn't it?

I agree, people can do with their possessions what they will, but that doesn't preclude me for thinking they're an idiot for doing so.

My Prius came with airbags. Am I a fool for not using them yet?

That's how silly you sound.

I couldn't give a monkey's about the 'game'. got two boxes never even looked at the rules/tiles/etc. same with Assassinorum and I'll do the same with Deathwatch. Don't have time to spend on all the various offshoot games! Minis are cheaper in this format so thanks GW.

I don't get why this is really even an issue?

It got to four pages. I'm still kind of lost. Like is this just a cry for help in getting more people to play the game inside the box? Because wouldn't it be easier to just ask someone to play it with you once or twice and get a little group going instead of the hue and cry over the fact that they showed no interest initially?

Just seems like it's not worth this much angst.

Why do you care what other people do with their kits? It literally has nothing to do with you and isn't doing anyone a diservice. Gw got their money and the customer paid for what they perceived to be of value. What else matters?

I would have bought BAC for my 30k army if I didn't have so many unpainted things already.

I have nothing to say about what a person does with the contents of something that they have bought.... and neither should you.

Is this a troll thread?

I get it that OP likes the game and wants to see more players playing it, but that doesn't give them the right to pass judgement on what other people do with their product once bought. It sounds more to me that what's really eating OP is that either they can't afford to buy multiple sets like the people they are seeing or no one is really into the game despite the sets flying off the shelves around them. What they hoped for was more board game players, what they got was more 30k players. Else wise, this post just sounds like an eight year old crying about how the world doesn't conform to their own views about it.

DorianGray wrote:
The people who have zero interest in the actual boardgame and toss the contents / sell on ebay?

I feel like it's a dis-service to the actual boardgame and it is actually pretty good. But no some people are not open to trying out new things.

Do you feel this is right?

You may feel it's a dis-service to the board game.

But I feel it's about £300 of 30k miniatures for a third of the price.

Really, the board sections, dice and rulebook are just added extras as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure the game is fun in its own way, if that's what you want.

But you also have to realise that BaC and Space Hulk sold like hotcakes because the miniatures appealed to the actual 40k players. Dreadfleet...well, it still hasn't sold out

What's the difference? Space Hulk, BaC and Deathwatch all have models that can be used outside the game itself and are distinct enough to be respectable characters and whatnot in their own right. Furthermore the relative cost of these models is fairly low for what you are getting. A lot of people are saying DW is expensive...but I look at each of those Marines, for the most part as characters - you get a Librarian, you get what is easily 3-4 Captain equivalents, you get what a lot of people are probably going to use as a Khan on Bike model. Going by GW's 'standard' pricing model for clampack characters... that's £110 on those guys alone. Not including the others or the Genestealer Cult in the cost.

Wait, there's a board game that came with my 60 Tacticals, some odd supports (others are going to be mixed with invictarii pieces and turned into Sternguard for 40k) 10 Terminators, 5 fulmentarii, Contemptor Talon and Characters for 30k and 40k?

News to me!

 the_Armyman wrote:
I'm curious about something: if I bought a Betrayal at Calth boxed set, started a fire with the cardstock pieces, then melted down the sprues to make some knick knack that I thought was cool, would you call me foolish? The OP's simply asking the same question in a different way. Paying money for a product that contains pieces for a game, then either discarding or not using those pieces is sorta foolish, isn't it?

I agree, people can do with their possessions what they will, but that doesn't preclude me for thinking they're an idiot for doing so.

If your bonfire can only use that kind of cardstock and you must have that type of plastic for your trinkets, then no, it's not foolish. Your comparison lacked something; there isn't a better alternative.

Quite frankly if there was a cheaper alternative for MK4 armor marines (or hell, marines in general) then it would be foolish to buy BaC for the miniature content alone (although not by much, considering it is still a discount). As it stands, it's the cheapest way to assemble a battle demi-company on the cheap or get started on a 30k army. It is also the only source of plastic cataphractii armor and Contemptor Dreads, and not everyone likes working with resin (much less paying the price). And those units do have functionally different rules than their 40k counterparts.

Will everyone here only buy deathwatch for the minis and chuck out the game?

Why does GW even bother designing interesting boardgames? The buying customer doesn't deserve them they only care about the minis.

DorianGray wrote:
Will everyone here only buy deathwatch for the minis and chuck out the game?

Why does GW even bother designing interesting boardgames? The buying customer doesn't deserve them they only care about the minis.

GW arenself-advertised as "Minis first, games second." These board games are a sure-fire way to get these models moving. If they simply made these models as kits and sold them at normal prices there'd be price outrage. Give the people these highly discounted versions as they did with Black Reach, Dark Vengeance, etc, and they'll sell like hotcakes. Now people have a handful of Heresy minis and will want more to further the collection, sending them to forgeworld, or to GW's eventual same-price plastics.

However to start the discount, they need to justify it. If they released these minis solo, just as a box, no game, then released normal priced versions, people would be outraged at the huge price leap, so GW must therefore sell them as board pieces in this boardgame called Betrayal at Calth/Deathwatch/Space Hulk (which also led to these games through its popularity and nostalgia).

DorianGray wrote:
Will everyone here only buy deathwatch for the minis and chuck out the game?

Why does GW even bother designing interesting boardgames? The buying customer doesn't deserve them they only care about the minis.

It was entirely GWs choice to develop the board game part of it too. Some people just aren't interested, which I'm sure GW are well aware. It's not like people asked for a board game to then disregard. I doubt there's someone at GW crying because 'imageek on the forum isn't playing the board game I made, he's just going to use the models for his 30k forces'.

If I get Deathwatch, I will probably try the board game. However, Betrayal at Calth, the second you use all the models for one heresy force, you're left with a board game where both sides are painted the same colour, which doesn't really work. But if someone's gonna get more enjoyment out of it using it for 30k, then more power to them. It makes more sense for them to not bother with the board game.

It's a marketing technique, they don't really care if you play the game...

-Assassinorum: New plastic assassin models, sold like hotcakes.
-Calth: Gateway to ForgeWorld which is GW's biggest money spinner,
-Deathwatch: Has new genestealers, Deathwatch with rules and people can look to expand with the £15.50 upgrade sprue.

The game isn't to please people, ot's a vehicle for shipping products.


They made Skyhammer op because Devvies and Assault Squads were getting no sales despite being new kits.

DorianGray wrote:
I'm not a troll.

I bought BaC when I only play XENOS and have zero interest in 30k, spent the time to paint EVERYTHING, purely to only play the boardgame with friends.

That is dedication.

I will be doing the same for the new OVERKILL DEATHWATCH boardgame when I don't play Space Marines or Tyranids.

So how about that?

Um, congratulations?

DorianGray wrote:
Will everyone here only buy deathwatch for the minis and chuck out the game?

Why does GW even bother designing interesting boardgames? The buying customer doesn't deserve them they only care about the minis.

First one no, but I will probably do so with the second one I buy. I will even butcher the marines from the second one I buy because I legally cannot use duplicates of them in either games.

I've never seen the forums this united.

GW is a miniature company not a games company, so people buying it for the models are more correct than buying it for the game.

/facetious sarcasm.

Betrayal at Calth is the best game never played.

Seriously, I don't get why people think either of these games are worth the money...

I love board games, have closets full of the things, and both the Assassin game and BaC are two games that are so mediocre it hurts. The Assassin game is ludicrously easy even when you try and make it more challenging with the "achievements" listed in the back. BaC is decent enough, not to great, not to bad, but the huge problem I have with it is the fact that it only has 5 missions, might be wrong I am not looking at it right now, and very little in the way of options for more missions.

The best part of these boxes are the models by far.

DorianGray wrote:
Will everyone here only buy deathwatch for the minis and chuck out the game?

Why does GW even bother designing interesting boardgames? The buying customer doesn't deserve them they only care about the minis.

All I know is all the eBay GSC I have coming from people who are breaking up the contents have motivated me to pull out my classic GSC models from mothballs and revisit them alongside the new stuff. GSC was one of my first armies WAY back in 2nd edition days and I feel like having waited this long for GW to show some love to one of their coolest ideas ever that I'm entitled timeo whatever I please, how I please.

II'm thrilled to use them (GSC) again in actual 40k/zone Mortalis/kill team!!!

I wish people would Please stop trying to piss on other people's nostalgia fueled hobby joy. It comes across as very petty...

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Seriously, I don't get why people think either of these games are worth the money...

I love board games, have closets full of the things, and both the Assassin game and BaC are two games that are so mediocre it hurts. The Assassin game is ludicrously easy even when you try and make it more challenging with the "achievements" listed in the back. BaC is decent enough, not to great, not to bad, but the huge problem I have with it is the fact that it only has 5 missions, might be wrong I am not looking at it right now, and very little in the way of options for more missions.

The best part of these boxes are the models by far.

I've actually said that these are boardgames only in the strictest academic sense. In reality, they're vehicles to sell miniatures to existing customers for a "discount." People who play boardgames don't want multipart, monochrome plastic playing pieces that they have to assemble and paint. Most of the boardgame players that have reviewed these games have found them to have lackluster rules, poor replayability, and many of them have purchased the game board pieces and rules from eBay and used simple colored chits to play the game.

Betrayal at Calth is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad in olden times armor should cost $60. Deathwatch: Overkill is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad of characters should cost $30 each. Then its easy to see all those cardstock pieces as free!

 the_Armyman wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Seriously, I don't get why people think either of these games are worth the money...

I love board games, have closets full of the things, and both the Assassin game and BaC are two games that are so mediocre it hurts. The Assassin game is ludicrously easy even when you try and make it more challenging with the "achievements" listed in the back. BaC is decent enough, not to great, not to bad, but the huge problem I have with it is the fact that it only has 5 missions, might be wrong I am not looking at it right now, and very little in the way of options for more missions.

The best part of these boxes are the models by far.

I've actually said that these are boardgames only in the strictest academic sense. In reality, they're vehicles to sell miniatures to existing customers for a "discount." People who play boardgames don't want multipart, monochrome plastic playing pieces that they have to assemble and paint. Most of the boardgame players that have reviewed these games have found them to have lackluster rules, poor replayability, and many of them have purchased the game board pieces and rules from eBay and used simple colored chits to play the game.

Betrayal at Calth is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad in olden times armor should cost $60. Deathwatch: Overkill is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad of characters should cost $30 each. Then its easy to see all those cardstock pieces as free!

Lets avoid hyperbole, we all know GW prices are on the high side but Calth is a solid deal if your into 30k and even 40k. It's 150. The modern cost of a tac squad is 40. So it be 120 for three, plus the HQ choices, a FW only Dreadnaught and some cool looking terminators plus a game. I have little interest since I have enough marines but execution Force was a fun game and DeathWatch introduced two more factions to the game.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Lets avoid hyperbole, we all know GW prices are on the high side but Calth is a solid deal if your into 30k and even 40k. It's 150. The modern cost of a tac squad is 40. So it be 120 for three, plus the HQ choices, a FW only Dreadnaught and some cool looking terminators plus a game. I have little interest since I have enough marines but execution Force was a fun game and DeathWatch introduced two more factions to the game.

Where was the hyperbole? BaC marines are plastic ports of resin FW minis. If I had compared them to $40 Tactical Squads, someone would have simply come in and told me that I can't compare 40K Tactical Squads to 30K Tactical Squads. Therefore, by other people's belief that Mk4 Marines are more valuable than Mk7 Marines, my example is fair. To me, a marine is just a marine, but to others it makes a huge difference, hence the premium price tag.

Discussing pricing with some of you is truly a merry-go-round of logic.

DorianGray wrote:
The people who have zero interest in the actual boardgame and toss the contents / sell on ebay?

I feel like it's a dis-service to the actual boardgame and it is actually pretty good. But no some people are not open to trying out new things.

Do you feel this is right?

I feel like people don't want to be shafted by GW/FW's utterly ridiculous pricings.

BaC is the most cost-efficient kit GW has ever produced.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Betrayal at Calth is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad in olden times armor should cost $60. Deathwatch: Overkill is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad of characters should cost $30 each. Then its easy to see all those cardstock pieces as free!

Let's break it down for 40K equivalents, then:

Betrayal at Calth costs $180 Cdn. It comes with the following:

3 Tactical Squads ($50 each) - $150
5 Terminators - $60
1 Dreadnought - $55.50
1 Character in Terminator Armour - $21.75-$37
1 Chaplain/ Dark Apostle - $19.75-$21.75

Totaling $307 worth of miniatures alone on the low end. Simply put, it's ridiculous and thick-headed to try and claim it not to be a good deal.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Betrayal at Calth is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad in olden times armor should cost $60. Deathwatch: Overkill is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad of characters should cost $30 each. Then its easy to see all those cardstock pieces as free!

Let's break it down for 40K equivalents, then:

Betrayal at Calth costs $180 Cdn. It comes with the following:

3 Tactical Squads ($50 each) - $150
5 Terminators - $60
1 Dreadnought - $55.50
1 Character in Terminator Armour - $21.75-$37
1 Chaplain/ Dark Apostle - $19.75-$21.75

Totaling $307 worth of miniatures alone on the low end. Simply put, it's ridiculous and thick-headed to try and claim it not to be a good deal.

You've proven my point: you have been convinced that all of these sprues are worth exactly what GW tells you they're worth. You see the contents of a box of cardstock and plastic sprue as worth $307 dollars, therefore it's a steal at $180. I love 40K, but GW can never convince me that what they sell is worth the price they charge. I'll also never buy a product marketed as one thing with a sly wink and a nod. It's like walking into the throne room of the Wizard of Oz, and willfully ignoring the man behind the curtain.

Tbh I would price the dreadnought at 15 dollars, considering it's basically the same as the Helbrute from DV with 1 extra option (as opposed to a full sprue kit like the rest of the set).

Still though, the tactical marines and Terminators more than justify the cost, as even if you literally toss everything else out of the box, that's still 30 CAD of savings right there.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Betrayal at Calth is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad in olden times armor should cost $60. Deathwatch: Overkill is a great deal if you're convinced that a Tactical Squad of characters should cost $30 each. Then its easy to see all those cardstock pieces as free!

Let's break it down for 40K equivalents, then:

Betrayal at Calth costs $180 Cdn. It comes with the following:

3 Tactical Squads ($50 each) - $150
5 Terminators - $60
1 Dreadnought - $55.50
1 Character in Terminator Armour - $21.75-$37
1 Chaplain/ Dark Apostle - $19.75-$21.75

Totaling $307 worth of miniatures alone on the low end. Simply put, it's ridiculous and thick-headed to try and claim it not to be a good deal.

You've proven my point: you have been convinced that all of these sprues are worth exactly what GW tells you they're worth. You see the contents of a box of cardstock and plastic sprue as worth $307 dollars, therefore it's a steal at $180. I love 40K, but GW can never convince me that what they sell is worth the price they charge. I'll also never buy a product marketed as one thing with a sly wink and a nod. It's like walking into the throne room of the Wizard of Oz, and willfully ignoring the man behind the curtain.

Your argument is a straw-man. No one has claimed that BaC is a good deal in a vacuum, the only assertion people have made is that it is a good deal in comparison to Games Workshop's other price-points.

Let's price BAC against the 2004 GW prices:
3 Tactical Squads @ $30 ea = $90
1 Terminator Squad @ $30
1 Dreadnought @ $35
2 Characters @ $8 ea = $16
= $170 USD MSRP total
= $135 after a -20% discount

So that's $20 for the game itself?

Seems fair to me.

BAC is a good deal for space marine players, so if people buy the game only for the mini's that is ok IMHO.

@JohnHwangDD

I think 2004 forgeworld prices would be more appropriate as these models were not for sale in plastic or metal at that time.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
BAC is a good deal for space marine players, so if people buy the game only for the mini's that is ok IMHO.

Or if you want to play CSM without mutations and spikes.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Your argument is a straw-man. No one has claimed that BaC is a good deal in a vacuum, the only assertion people have made is that it is a good deal in comparison to Games Workshop's other price-points.

Talk about damning with faint praise, then. I'm sure that stepping on nails doesn't hurt as much as stepping on a landmine but that doesn't really mean much.

 the_Armyman wrote:
You've proven my point: you have been convinced that all of these sprues are worth exactly what GW tells you they're worth. You see the contents of a box of cardstock and plastic sprue as worth $307 dollars, therefore it's a steal at $180. I love 40K, but GW can never convince me that what they sell is worth the price they charge. I'll also never buy a product marketed as one thing with a sly wink and a nod. It's like walking into the throne room of the Wizard of Oz, and willfully ignoring the man behind the curtain.

Dude, what the feth are you even talking about? When did the disagreement here change from "what people are willing to pay for something" to "what the_Armyman will pay for something"? Thousands of people in the hobby will pay $50 for a box of Tactical Marines. There are sales numbers out there to prove that. Hundreds of people will pay whatever FW charges for 10 Tactical Marines. The "value" of anything is exactly what people will pay for it.

So do you not put gas in your car because you don't want to "pay what the gas stations tell you it's worth"? Stop changing the goal posts, I don't even remember what your point is by now. Is it that GW is expensive? Yes, it is. I can't and won't dispute that. But when I'm paying $180 for something I'd normally pay $280 for, how exactly am I not getting a deal?

Ohhhh, right because I'm a sheep just doing what GW tells me...

The board game is boring borderline trash. I already have far more interesting boardgames/games in my cupboard that also do not require me to paint the miniatures different schemes to keep track of them instead of for a single army. Meanwhile as I got BaC for just $112 or so, I got 30 MK IV tacs, 5 Cata termies, 1 contemptor (with a solid loadout), and 2 HQ. All in relic armor.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I would have bought BAC for my 30k army if I didn't have so many unpainted things already.

I am in the same canoe.

 kronk wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I would have bought BAC for my 30k army if I didn't have so many unpainted things already.

I am in the same canoe.

Then start paddling

Rosebuddy wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Your argument is a straw-man. No one has claimed that BaC is a good deal in a vacuum, the only assertion people have made is that it is a good deal in comparison to Games Workshop's other price-points.

Talk about damning with faint praise, then. I'm sure that stepping on nails doesn't hurt as much as stepping on a landmine but that doesn't really mean much.

To keep that metaphor going: it probably means an awful lot to the folks who've lost an entire leg to landmines.

Hmm, maybe for some people's sanity, I probably should refrain from mentioning how I am buying the Betrayal at Calth terminators to add to my old 4th ed. 13th company force so I can have fluff-logical Wolf Guard in terminator armor, which even when being repaired off the battlefield with scrounged Chaos equipment would be of Heresy-era style, because technically both Chaos and 13th company would still be nursing along Heresy-era Marks of suits.

Not that the old rules for 13th company would allow Wolf Guard at all, much less in Terminator armor, but it'll look too damn cool to pass up for fun games.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The board game is boring borderline trash. I already have far more interesting boardgames/games in my cupboard that also do not require me to paint the miniatures different schemes to keep track of them instead of for a single army. Meanwhile as I got BaC for just $112 or so, I got 30 MK IV tacs, 5 Cata termies, 1 contemptor (with a solid loadout), and 2 HQ. All in relic armor.

God, nothing is more boring than a boardgame snob. And, I am one. BaC is fast, fun, and sophisticated. And, you got it for free in your amazing deal. And, I'll bet you've never played it. Be advised, it is not a multiplayer game where you gather sheep and wood.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
You've proven my point: you have been convinced that all of these sprues are worth exactly what GW tells you they're worth. You see the contents of a box of cardstock and plastic sprue as worth $307 dollars, therefore it's a steal at $180. I love 40K, but GW can never convince me that what they sell is worth the price they charge. I'll also never buy a product marketed as one thing with a sly wink and a nod. It's like walking into the throne room of the Wizard of Oz, and willfully ignoring the man behind the curtain.

Dude, what the feth are you even talking about? When did the disagreement here change from "what people are willing to pay for something" to "what the_Armyman will pay for something"? Thousands of people in the hobby will pay $50 for a box of Tactical Marines. There are sales numbers out there to prove that. Hundreds of people will pay whatever FW charges for 10 Tactical Marines. The "value" of anything is exactly what people will pay for it.

So do you not put gas in your car because you don't want to "pay what the gas stations tell you it's worth"? Stop changing the goal posts, I don't even remember what your point is by now. Is it that GW is expensive? Yes, it is. I can't and won't dispute that. But when I'm paying $180 for something I'd normally pay $280 for, how exactly am I not getting a deal?

Ohhhh, right because I'm a sheep just doing what GW tells me...

I would ignore him at this point, he's been on a rant like that in other threads as well and seems to only want to enrage people for some unspecified reason.