Yes its that time again people. We're in the end of and start of the Walking Dead and Fear the Walking. Also the coming series of Containment
So its time for mental gymnastics.
Top ten places to survive the Apocalypse
10. Arlington, VA
9. Little Rock, AR
8. Virginia Beach, VA
7. Boise City, ID 6. Huntsville, AL 5. Lubbock, TX
4. Stamford, CT 3. Anchorage, AK
2. Tampa, FL
1. Columbia, MO
I know I will not be anywhere near DC of the East coast near the DC
This I hope will be different for if you make a suggestion. You have to back up that suggestion
I throw in these babies.....carrier deck can be used to farm crops, hangar bay live stocks. Pier can be launching point for netting fish.
Expandibility to another carrier
Easily defendable. They have to go down the pier to get to carrier EECP. Access to water. being it "rains" here a bit.
National Guard armory will have weapons. JBLM has a huge AHA (Ammunition Holding Area)
Road access
"Island" of the carrier can be used at a LP/OP
Waaay too many warm areas for that to be a good list. ID and AK are the only ones I would agree with.
Were not getting traditional zombies that can beat the freezing point of water somehow in real life, were getting 28 days later but smarter and stab-happier zombies if it ever happens. So I will take my tundra thank you all very much.
Instead of Zombies though. Lets go with a strain that makes people bat crap crazy and infects anyone with body fluid transfer.
You mean the series Crossed (can't find a SFW picture to post...)? Heh, which deliberately goes out of its way to point out that no matter how good a fortress you have, things'll break down eventually. Hmn, though the infected in that vary from 28 Days Later "I'm gonna eat 'cha" to "let's catapult an infected baby over your wall with a blanket, shoot it in the air, and let its infected remains rain down on the defenders..."
On topic, as good as a place is to defend, the examples so far come across as being defensible for a short term. What about food and logistics for access to the outside? Any place where you're going to survive for a long time's going to need arable land. Bonus points if the farms aren't obvious as hell, though I guess the whole thing's a balancing act.
There's some good old castles in England. Not entirely comfey but often walls are metres of stonework, designed for defence and often have large internal aareas for crops and storage.
Old but they have stop some for 900 years against various invaders in various forms. The sited are often easily defended and designed for smaller garrions s to hold vs superior numbers. Gates can be thick oak reinforced with metal plates etc. Nice and solid with a massive timber bar behind to keep shut.
Us wise, norad hq... Its a mega bunker designed to take nukes.
What is the infection and zombification rate?
How long do zombie bodies remain active and dangerous without decaying into carrion?
How many survivors go 'feral' and become amoral marauders?
If the infection/conversion rate is very high but the decay rate of the zombified corpses is realistic, then you could expect within a month of the outbreak that 90% or more of the population had died and pretty much decayed to at worst nasty messes and skeletons.
If you managed to survive that long, there would be plenty of food in tins, dry storage, livestock, deer, fruit and nuts, depending on time of year, plus houses and vehicles and all sorts of equipment that would be easy to make use of with a bit of technical knowledge. With a bit of survival knowledge you probably could live for years.
During that first month the danger of zombies obviously would be greatest in high population density locations, so logically you should head out to remote countryside to hide, and return to more built-up areas in a logical progression. Move first from your remote farmhouse to a small village, observe local conditions, then move to a small town, and so on. Your main worry would be coming into contact with other survivors who had gone feral, though against this, you would also hope to be able to band together with survivors who remained civilised.
In the longer term, cities would be abandoned in favour of small towns with easy access to farmland as well as useful facilities such as rivers, mechanical workshops, storehouses and so on.
Of course in many zombie scenarios like the Walking Dead, the zombies defy normal processes of decay to remain a serious danger for months or years. If the zombies tend to move about the country, nowhere that provided facilities might be safe. Who wants to live on top of a mountain for years?
in 28 Days Later, though, it's clear that the infected victims starve to death fairly rapidly.
in 28 Days Later, though, it's clear that the infected victims starve to death fairly rapidly.
Specifically I think this thread's referring to infected of the 28 Days Later kind.
Re: infection, and to bring up Crossed again as it seems like a good fit. The infected there are all dead in the followup series which takes place 100 years later. They're too self destructive to survive. Those that don't kill themselves either die from infections or Aids within the decade. Any who do survive are eventually too old and infirm to do much against the younger survivors who are savvy enough to take them down.
As has been said, best case would be an intact castle with decent farming space. The issue with that's finding one. At least here in Scotland a load of the existing castles which haven't been converted into homes are in a bad state. Naturally you could patch them up however. Considering that they were designed in a time without all the fancy gizmos a post-apocalyptic scenario would lack, they seem suitable. As ever, there's there issue of opposing non-infected groups.
I guess it also depends on the country in question. In the UK sure you can pick up a gun from a Reservist armoury, but by and large most people aren't going to be toting a firearm. In the US you'd have to worry about that kind of thing more. ...Or, if you live in the Southern States, the occasional recreational artillery piece (how someone'd wheel those to your base through the infected is another question. ...Though by the same token if the military's mobilized you could be facing armour re: the Walking Dead).
I hadn't heard of Crossed but a quick Google shows that efffectively it turns the victims into feral survivors without killing them. This is a far worse case than 28 Days Later, since the 28 Days infected lose nearly all instincts, can't feed themselves and will die of starvation or thirst in a fairly short time.
If you want to defend against Crossed 'zombies', your best plan is to band together with other survivors and learn the weaknesses of the Crossed and how to exploit those. For example, a lack of instinct for self-preservation is very anti-survival, so it might be possible to lure them into situations where they easily can be killed en masse. Alternatively, simple isolation from the Crossed people would lead to them turning on each other and reducing their numbers through attrition.
Probably the worst thing would be a passive defence of occupying a fortress, as this would give the Crossed a focus for their aggression that might enable them to organise more effectively. Though perhaps the castle could be turned into a mass killing trap.
Pretty much my default idea for all outbreak scenarios. I mean my old home state of Michigan has plenty of islands in the great lakes that would make for prefect spots to hold up in. Hop in a boat and pretend its a weird LARP of One Piece. Islands all ways seemed to me like the best place to survive this kind of crap, I mean as long as you got some experience sailing or repairing marine engines you are really golden.
Jihadin wrote: Yes its that time again people. We're in the end of and start of the Walking Dead and Fear the Walking. Also the coming series of Containment
So its time for mental gymnastics.
Top ten places to survive the Apocalypse
10. Arlington, VA
9. Little Rock, AR
8. Virginia Beach, VA
7. Boise City, ID 6. Huntsville, AL 5. Lubbock, TX
4. Stamford, CT 3. Anchorage, AK
2. Tampa, FL
1. Columbia, MO
I know I will not be anywhere near DC of the East coast near the DC
This I hope will be different for if you make a suggestion. You have to back up that suggestion
I throw in these babies.....carrier deck can be used to farm crops, hangar bay live stocks. Pier can be launching point for netting fish.
Expandibility to another carrier
Easily defendable. They have to go down the pier to get to carrier EECP. Access to water. being it "rains" here a bit.
National Guard armory will have weapons. JBLM has a huge AHA (Ammunition Holding Area)
Road access
"Island" of the carrier can be used at a LP/OP
Lets roll with it
So lets get cracking
Whoever came up with that list is good as dead.
When one approaches the subject of a hypothetical zombie apocalypse, or outbreak of a pandemic that turns the living into insane killing machines, you have to do it in the same way as you would any other man-made or natural upheaval.
One of the key points is LOCATION. Any location with a population greater than 50,000 is a potential hot zone. Same goes for any place within 30 to 50 miles of a major city, or 100 miles from a major metropolis. And if you're right on top of a major Interstate or near a military reservation, you're asking for trouble.
Let's look at that list, shall we?
Arlington, Virginia: Population as of 2014-229,302. Is in a highly populated region of the United States, has a large transient population, and is a hop, skip, jump from the District of Columbia.
Little Rock, Arkansas: Population as of 2013: 724,385. Is part of the Little Rock Statistical Area in Central Arkansas, with a combined population of nearly one million. It's a major tourist destination, cultural center, college town, and key industrial center in the South (i.e. large transient population)
Virginia Beach, Virginia: Population as of 2013: 448,479. Close to the Norfolk/Newport News/Smithfield area. It's the 39th most populous city in the United States, an important media hub, and a major tourist/retirement spot in the Commonwealth of Virginia. It's also in a highly populated area of the State known as "America's First Region", made up of several independent cities and towns dating back to colonial times.
Boise, Idaho: Population as of 2013: 214,237. While the area from Redding in Northern California to the mountains of Washington State offer many great places to lay low, the city of Boise is not one of them. It's part of the Boise-Nampa Metropolitan Area (aka Treasure Valley-Total population 664,422). It's a regional culture center, home to some major industry (including branches of the giants Hewlett Packard and Microsoft), a major communication hub (over 20 call centers, including those owned by a Xerox subsidiary, T-Mobile, and DIRECTV), and a major college town.
Huntsville, Alabama: Population as of 2014: 441,000 (Huntsville Metro Area). Second largest city in Alabama, core of the five county Huntsville-Decatur Combined Statistical Area, and next door to the United States Army's Redstone Arsenal. Major historical tourist attraction (with the ever-popular U.S. Space & Rocket Center, Space Camp, and Marshall Space Flight Center). It's also a major college town and biotech center second only to North Carolina's Research Triangle. Huntsville also boasts the largest and most well-equipped medical facilities in the region.
Lubbock, Texas: Population as of 2014: 305,644. Lubbock is a growing "Hub City", being the economic, education, and health care hub of the multi-county region in Texas. Combined with a modest tourist trade, and being home to a couple of small colleges, Lubbock has a significant transient population. Like Huntsville, if the gak hit the fan, and people started getting sick in droves, Lubbock is the first place people familiar with the area are going to in order to seek medical aid.
Stamford, Connecticut: Population as of 2014: 128,278, not including a HUGE daily transient population: Possibly one of the WORST places on that list. I won't get into specifics on this one. All somebody needs to know is that the city is 30 freakin' miles from Manhattan Island (i.e. New York City). Stamford is in the Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk Metro Area, which is considered part of the Greater New York Metropolitan Area. When you start hearing weird reports of people presumed dead getting up, or numerous reports of cannibalism, don't dick around. Pack your glad-rags and get the feth out of Stamford. Fast.
Anchorage, Alaska: Population as of 2013: 396,142. Hey, it's Alaska, right? I watch all of them shows on cable. Small population and in the middle of nowhere! Not so fast there, kudzu. Alaska may still be mostly snow, ice, and wilderness. But Anchorage is still a major, modern population center. In fact, 40% of Alaska's total population live in Anchorage (only New York exceeds it in terms of percentage of total State residents living in it's most populous city). Sure, it may seem isolated compared to other major American cities. But it's the site of a major U.S. airport (Anchorage is 9 1/2 hours from 90% of the world's locations) and a key hub for FedEx's global shipping network. The U.S. Military's Joint Base Elmendorf–Richardson is also in the area. Anchorage is also a major international port and one of the points of the "Railway Belt" between it and Fairbanks (the most populated area of the State). Anchorage, being the headquarters of much of Alaska's petroleum industry, hosts a large transient population. You're better off out in the boondocks with the Polar Bears and Kodiaks. At least you won't turn into a flesh-eating cannibal or homicidal maniac if bitten.
Tampa, Florida: Population as of 2011: 346,037. Not no, but HELL NO. Tampa is one more bad location in a State full of 'em. Not only is the city's permanent population figures too high for comfort, but because it's a major hub for finance, retail, healthcare, insurance, shipping by air and sea, national defense, professional sports, tourism, and real estate, it's transient population is also too high. Many of your major cruise lines have permanent berths in Tampa. And the medical facilities, like those of other well equipped facilities in other big areas like Jacksonville and Miami-Dade, will be swamped and will be major vectors of infection. If you are in Tampa when Z-Day rolls around, make a run for it before you become Zed chow.
Columbia, Missouri: Population as of 2014: 116, 906. The fact that it's population is a bit on the high side for any self-respecting survivalist, and that Interstate 70 (along with major State thoroughfares) is too close for comfort, is enough to make Columbia less than ideal. It being a major college town means that, like resort areas, fleabags are going to flock to it like flies to gak. The concentration of medical professionals (one of the highest in the United States) and medical facilities, will prove a ripe breeding ground for the infection to spread.
Another reason to avoid Columbia in a hypothetical doomsday scenario (like Zeds swarming around like Tyranids looking for OM NOMS) is it's politics and culture. Columbia is considered a "progressive" city, with a emphasis on "progressive" causes. You have a large artsy-fartsy, hipster scene with indie film festivals, an indie music scene, and hipster/neo-beatnik bars and arts centers. The majority political climate ranges from run of the mill liberal/traditionally progressive to neo-progressive/post-modernist (what netzians would call "social justice warriors"). In general, these kind of people tend to be slower than most on accepting reality, have an aversion to weapons (especially firearms), and find comfort in the self-delusional belief that "the government will do something". While the average liberal/progressive will eventually wake up and smell the roses (hopefully before they get OM NOMmed), I don't hold much hope for most of the so-called "SJWs". They'll spend more time griping about Twitter being down so they can't start up #ZombieUnlivesMatter.
You're better off elsewhere if you value your odds of survival.
The ideal location would be a rural or wilderness area, with a low population density. If you feel the need to be in a population center, go with small towns. The lower the population, the better (under 50,000 at worst). Preferably one without one dominate religious denomination or charismatic religious/political leader(s), hard working, industrious types (a pawn shop on every corner is a good indicator that the town lacks these folks), low crime/drug problem, good or cordial race relations, a good cross-section of skills, and law enforcement that isn't elected/politically appointed. Make sure you have a useful skill to barter your way in, since the residents are unlikely to just let people in out of the goodness of their hearts (and would have no problem killing you if you or your group try to force your way in).
I would prefer to avoid small towns myself. But I still would want a group that is versatile and willing to act like adults in order to survive. Because the lone wolf dies alone. A group that can run silent, lay low, and stay off of the radar with no problem. The last thing you need is a Duke Nuke'em getting "commando fever", and launch a Black Templar style crusade against the undead. Those types are good in a fight, but can get you killed otherwise (since escape and evasion should be your mantra, fighting as a last resort).
Relying on scavenging shouldn't be your primary means of resources, except as a last resort, or if on the move constantly for whatever reason. But there is nothing wrong with the practice as a supplemental means (i.e. adding more resources to your survival tool box/cache). But only do so when it's advantageous to the group. Scavenging in unsafe situations should only be done in the direst of circumstances. It's also a good idea if you are mobile, and are haunting a given area for a while, to have hidden caches in various locations.
Defense is mostly common sense. Be alert, be observant, and stay as quiet as possible. If you are based somewhere, make it as inconspicuous as possible, but with a good field of view. Know the terrain around your abode. Range cards for fixed positions are not a bad idea. Your defensive perimeter should also be inconspicuous, and patrols should remain small, have radio communication, and run quiet. If you run generators, construct a sound proofed structure for them if possible. Also, black out the windows of any structure(s) you are using to prevent any kind of light from giving you away to any jackals that would be happy to take what is yours, or the undead. Minimize the use of power tools or powered equipment (like tractors).
On the subject of weapons: There are ideal choices. But any gun is better than no gun at all. Just because you are "stuck" with a bolt-action Savage or Marlin .22lr autoloader, instead of an AR-15 or M1A, doesn't mean you are doomed. As long as you can hit what you shoot at, and are proficient with the weapon, you will be fine with it. Remember, avoiding trouble, escape, and evasion are the order of the day. Not going out of your way to get into firefights with unwashed, larcenous types, or waging a campaign of extermination against all the Zeds in the country.
If you are based, and come under siege, your group should have a defense plan. Layered defense in concentric rings, using your knowledge of the terrain, traps, and backed up by support from sharpshooters, is one way to go. Always have an escape route/plan (it's worked for burrowing rodents for millions of years) if your defense fails and your base is on the verge of being overrun. Me, personally, would go for a little scorched earth, and deny the attackers as much as possible if forced to retreat. This is when hidden emergency caches will be especially useful.
Expansion is something that should only be done when (or if) things level off enough to make it safe enough to do so, with manageable risk from the undead or hostile living. Survival is your first priority. Save the rebuilding of functioning societies for a time when the dead are reduced as a threat, and the hyenas are ready to come back from the caves.
Offense is a big no-no when survival is at stake. Sure, the best defense is a strong offense. But only as an absolute, last resort (i.e. retreat and evasion isn't an option). If you have to go on the offensive, other than clearing out a few Zeds here and there, then you've failed as a survivalist by violating some of the key rules. Particularly the ones that involve remaining inconspicuous, keeping a low profile, and thinking defensively. You're trying to stay alive, not start wars with other survivors.
I love these kind of discussions and "what ifs" Because I won't lie. I'm a prepper. I have a small stock of food, OTC medications, ammo, water, and other necessities. I have a "bug-out bag" and emergency plans. I have training in first aid and life saving techniques from my time in the military and law enforcement. For some folks who might feel daunted or silly over prepping, preparing for a "zombie apocalypse" is a fun way of learning basic survival skills that can be useful in any natural or man-made disaster.
I would hide out in a walmart or similiar big department store, preferable one of those in the middle of nowhere.
Food
Dirt and tools to grow food.
Large enough not to get bored
Recreational activity.
Easily defend-able
you can have a small society grow in there.
Heck, with some intelligence, it can be farely self-sustaining
If I wasn't a scrawny 14-year old I'd totally steal one of my scout clubs sailboats, tell one of my friends to follow me and stock up on canned food and survival equipment before sailing away. I guess fishing would be a good way of getting food. There are lots of houses on smaller islands in the swedish archipelago we could loot. We wouldn't have a lot of things to defend ourselves with, but why would we need to do that out on the open sea?
IIRC, the World War Z book, make of it as you will, had a few stories where being in cold environments like Northern Canada, were extremely beneficial as you only had to deal with Zombies during the warmer months when everything wasn't covered in ice. Not sure if this would be a valid strategy, but it would seem to be a good start.
Start with smaller islands and clear the zombies off them (burning the bodies). This gives you a base to start island hopping. Cuba may be problematic because of its size and population but the other islands should be easy enough.
Soon you'll have enough ground cleared that you can farm, use small boats as transport, and even have ready made quarantines for new arrivals or those who get sick later. Sharks and other sea life should be able to handle any floaters that decide to come visit.
Thinking against about the Crossed 'zombies', the problem for them is that there isn't more than a few weeks stored food to scavenge in any modern nation.
Clearly a load of violent psychopaths aren't going to be much use at operating infrastructure and the agricultural system, so they will starve or murder themselves in fairly short order.
The danger will be getting caught before the number of Crossed falls low enough to make them easy to kill off by co-operating against them.
Have to think how many other people has the same idea
Island
Mall
Walmart
etc etc
I threw in the carriers because one its
1. Insane but cool
2. flight deck = farm land
3. Hand cranes to haul in the goods.
4. defensible
5. Harden steel target
Raven though hit. Its in the middle of a population area.
Tundra. Will Extreme cold weather survival.....I bank on a oil rig up there. Out in the water. Resource gathering be a pain in the butt though.
My place. It has the precious booze reserves we'll need to fortify ourselves after a hard week's work of cleansing Texas.
We'll decide whether to save the rest of the world, depending on how much the Pyrat rum and 12 year Tulamore Dew hold out. And if I have to break into the last two shot's of the TBone Reserve I will go berserk and eat the heart of every last zombie in the Americas. Do not test me on this Zombie peoples!
Jihadin wrote: All I can think now is Frazz living in a fuel air bomb structure.....
I wish. The wife gets annoyed with my "I just want a bunker is that too much to ask?" daydreams.
After a bought of Mexican food, there's definitely a fuel bomb around...
Kilkrazy wrote: Thinking against about the Crossed 'zombies', the problem for them is that there isn't more than a few weeks stored food to scavenge in any modern nation.
Clearly a load of violent psychopaths aren't going to be much use at operating infrastructure and the agricultural system, so they will starve or murder themselves in fairly short order.
The danger will be getting caught before the number of Crossed falls low enough to make them easy to kill off by co-operating against them.
Not to go OT with the Crossed stuff (damn, shouldn't have mentioned that series...).
The first days of the Infection involve just mass murder. As time goes on there's less non-infected to kill, so the Crossed, as the series puts it, go from acting like children in a candy store to being more tactful. The Crossed are sadists, but get off on most any taboo, so they don't really kill each other unless they're really bored, because where's the fun in killing someone who enjoys it?
But yes, the majority die due to illness, exposure to the elements (put on some damn clothes...), starvation and attrition. 100 years later they're *thought* to be extinct. Well bar hillbilly families of inbreds who have learned not to kill their children.
In the context of this thread we're talking about dumb 28 Days Later style infected, which would result in The Walking Dead style scenarios. As the Crossed are regular people who just don't know restraint they're altogether more dangerous, though how easily led or ingenious they are depends on the plot at the time of the comics (which besides Wish you Were Here and +100 are straight gore porn, those two are good post-apocalypse reads regardless however. The prequel The Fatal Englishman, involving Gordon Brown is good too, seeing as it deals with concepts, again, rather than gore porn).
On topic, we're discussing the 28 Days later style of Infected.
Instead of Zombies though. Lets go with a strain that makes people bat crap crazy and infects anyone with body fluid transfer.
I suggested that the above fits the Crossed. However as pointed out, that's far too skewed.
In a perfect world you could just disappear to Easter Island or the Falklands, though my original note about arable land would be brought up in those cases.
I dont recall can 28 day zombies operate simple equipment like vehicles? or are they far gone?
If i was forced to do local survival then id try to go to the closest mountains probably big bear. quietly attempt to farm things like potatoes and use snow for a water source. dont want no contaminated ground water.
if zombies b zombies then they should all rot away within a year or so. if walking dead zombies then probably 3-5 years.
edit: im not a navel man. but do air carriers have water purification systems? also i beleive most are run on nuclear power too so you would need to know how to run those systems which could be a problem
Those carriers are mothballed. Though I understand that the elevators and stuff are still powered from a outside source. So figure generators. I know where 60K generators are located. Except I would move it inside and operate the elevators and cranes with a secure power source. Also moving fuel tanks inside.
Desubot wrote: I dont recall can 28 day zombies operate simple equipment like vehicles? or are they far gone?
If i was forced to do local survival then id try to go to the closest mountains probably big bear. quietly attempt to farm things like potatoes and use snow for a water source. dont want no contaminated ground water.
if zombies b zombies then they should all rot away within a year or so. if walking dead zombies then probably 3-5 years.
edit: im not a navel man. but do air carriers have water purification systems? also i beleive most are run on nuclear power too so you would need to know how to run those systems which could be a problem
otherwise as a man made island maybe not bad.
every ship in the navy has purifiers to take in salt water and make it fresh water. But as those carriers look like they've been drydocked/mothballed, they'd take a huge overhaul and influx of equipment to get to operate in the simpliest of capacities. For other ships that have been mothballed, there's a good chance they won't have any engines either, which you'd need to make power. Go figure, the worlds greatest navy rents it's engines.
but they are highly secure areas to live in, unless the zombies can climb ropes. Just one way in or out, and that can be removed manually with enough people. Then you can have living areas sectioned off by water tight doors that the dumber zombies could never open, but that can also leave you trapped inside with no way out. Always have an escape plan.
If you can find a ship that had been operation, yet got abandoned during the outbreak, you'd have all the manuals to run all the systems of the ship. And while that would be fun for about a week, once the fuel is gone you're dead in the water.
My plan remains the same, hide up in the attic for a week til my supplies run low. Mainly to see if the army/police can get a handle on the situation. During that week, I'm breaking into all the connecting town houses and making a path to the roof. After that it really depends on what I can see, if it looks clear I'll drive to costco (a 3k trip). A wherehouse with 1 main entrance which can be blocked off and a inner fence and garage doors. Mine has a huge propane tank, I'd assume it has a backup generator as they store food there, so by the time I get there the food should still be good. Then it's all about the garden on the roof, hammocks high enough they can't be reached, and a good supply of books & games to keep me amused while passing the time.
if the place is swarmed with zombies, then it's still the same plan, but setting off diversions and heading the other way. The whole 3k trip is a shopping spree for hiding locations. drug stores, bars, convenience stores, and a mall. the mall is 2k away, and it has the GW store, so that could be a good spot to hang out a while
Desubot wrote: I dont recall can 28 day zombies operate simple equipment like vehicles? or are they far gone?
If i was forced to do local survival then id try to go to the closest mountains probably big bear. quietly attempt to farm things like potatoes and use snow for a water source. dont want no contaminated ground water.
if zombies b zombies then they should all rot away within a year or so. if walking dead zombies then probably 3-5 years.
edit: im not a navel man. but do air carriers have water purification systems? also i beleive most are run on nuclear power too so you would need to know how to run those systems which could be a problem
otherwise as a man made island maybe not bad.
every ship in the navy has purifiers to take in salt water and make it fresh water. But as those carriers look like they've been drydocked/mothballed, they'd take a huge overhaul and influx of equipment to get to operate in the simpliest of capacities. For other ships that have been mothballed, there's a good chance they won't have any engines either, which you'd need to make power. Go figure, the worlds greatest navy rents it's engines.
but they are highly secure areas to live in, unless the zombies can climb ropes. Just one way in or out, and that can be removed manually with enough people. Then you can have living areas sectioned off by water tight doors that the dumber zombies could never open, but that can also leave you trapped inside with no way out. Always have an escape plan.
If you can find a ship that had been operation, yet got abandoned during the outbreak, you'd have all the manuals to run all the systems of the ship. And while that would be fun for about a week, once the fuel is gone you're dead in the water.
My plan remains the same, hide up in the attic for a week til my supplies run low. Mainly to see if the army/police can get a handle on the situation. During that week, I'm breaking into all the connecting town houses and making a path to the roof. After that it really depends on what I can see, if it looks clear I'll drive to costco (a 3k trip). A wherehouse with 1 main entrance which can be blocked off and a inner fence and garage doors. Mine has a huge propane tank, I'd assume it has a backup generator as they store food there, so by the time I get there the food should still be good. Then it's all about the garden on the roof, hammocks high enough they can't be reached, and a good supply of books & games to keep me amused while passing the time.
if the place is swarmed with zombies, then it's still the same plan, but setting off diversions and heading the other way. The whole 3k trip is a shopping spree for hiding locations. drug stores, bars, convenience stores, and a mall. the mall is 2k away, and it has the GW store, so that could be a good spot to hang out a while
Mmm only reason i want to avoid those super stores is because for the most part, they would probably be completely ransacked as well any other retail shops.
Id be mostly concerned with water, food, then safety. making sure i have clean drinking water that isnt contaminated by zombines, enough non perishable food to survive at least a year (assuming decomposition still works) and a location that can be well defended or hidden (from other people as well) with a good escape route. not many places really have that in one go. certainly one or two. but all 3 might be difficult unless you are lucky enough to have one of those coldwar fallout shelter handy
it also depends on how many people are left, and how many are going full raider.
im kinda thinking farms or small towns with an available water tower maybe. otherwise possibly a hydro electric power plant. if you could run it, you could divert all the power into making hydrogen and oxygen for pure water. you could find salt and stuff around as i could assume people wouldnt bother with that kinda stuff.
28 Days Later zombies are good at running around and can go up and down stairs. They can't open doors or dismantle simple barricades. When not disturbed they seem to go into a state of torpor, and are aroused by noise and light.
Naval vessels take a feth-ton of maintenance to keep operational. You're not going to have that after the zombies start rampaging. Then there's the fact that the military won't let you take their carriers from them.
They may, however, allow people on. They military's main goal in this sort of senario would be to save as many people as possible. Mass transport to un-infected areas would be a good use for any carrier not currently used for fighting.
Well, I was more talking carriers in general. Although tge decommissioned ones might be good for housing refugees in a safe place before transport arrives.
Although not for farming as was originally suggested. I'm not sure how you're going to get that much topsoil loaded aboard in the middle of a global emergency.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Although not for farming as was originally suggested. I'm not sure how you're going to get that much topsoil loaded aboard in the middle of a global emergency.
...Not to keep bringing it up. Crossed had the folks go out and scavenge a canal dredger for their soil. Unless the waterways are blocked (and watch out for bridges), you can up sticks and transport your soil wherever you like. In the end fuel's an issue, but the intent with one of those is to eventually find a safe island, etc and then just dump all the dirt. The intent in that comic was to dump it all on some colonial fort in the Caribbean ...but dredgers aren't really suited for hugging a couple of thousand miles of coastline.
I live and work in a 17th century building with 3 feet thick walls and its only period armoury (plus my own swords) - friends often joke they are coming to me when the Zombies rise...... I might even let them in.................
During a zombie apocalypse I would just go to the nearest LARGE military base. Because regardless of every Sci-Fi book/movie/TV show says they will be the safest place. Why? because guns and ......more guns and tanks and artillery and close air support and did I mention the guns?
TWD and FTWD all make there characters into these indestructible zombie killing machines that slay zombies with knives faster then you can blink an eye. And yet the US military, all armed with M16s, M4s, M240s, M249s and M2s (not getting into heavier ordinance) can't kill zombies before they are over run?
My favorite scene in FTWD is when the army guys go into the building and you hear lots of shooting and then something like 2 of them walk out and the rest are all dead and the zombies won somehow, flash forward a few episodes and the zombies over run the military installation but the civilians somehow survive and out fight the military.
If this ever were to happen then you better believe that the Military would lay waste to hundreds of thousands of zombies, not to mention that most major military installations are VERY secluded. Camp Lejeune is in Jacksonville NC, a city with a population of about 70,000, where as Camp Lejeune at any given point has around 40-47,000 Marines and Sailors on deck.
So every Scifi story involving zombies in America is saying is that 70,000 braindead zombies some how manage to over run and kill 40-47k trained Marines who all have easy access to arms, not to mention the tanks/artillery/CAS they can easily use.
Body wave....only goes down from head shots. Logistical train to support your 40-47K Marine trigger pullers at Camp Lejeune. I can see a task force coming down off the beaches of Lejuene and going out by sea. Shrinking the perimeter little by little as all resources are carted off or secured. If this is turning into a Zombie war.
Let's change it up.
NC, SC, Lower VA
Assemble the military and clear out those states. Securing two major bases. SC Charleston for a certain port there (bullet boat and AHA there). 10th Mountain secures a huge footprint in NY...
SemperMortis wrote: During a zombie apocalypse I would just go to the nearest LARGE military base. Because regardless of every Sci-Fi book/movie/TV show says they will be the safest place. Why? because guns and ......more guns and tanks and artillery and close air support and did I mention the guns?
TWD and FTWD all make there characters into these indestructible zombie killing machines that slay zombies with knives faster then you can blink an eye. And yet the US military, all armed with M16s, M4s, M240s, M249s and M2s (not getting into heavier ordinance) can't kill zombies before they are over run?
My favorite scene in FTWD is when the army guys go into the building and you hear lots of shooting and then something like 2 of them walk out and the rest are all dead and the zombies won somehow, flash forward a few episodes and the zombies over run the military installation but the civilians somehow survive and out fight the military.
If this ever were to happen then you better believe that the Military would lay waste to hundreds of thousands of zombies, not to mention that most major military installations are VERY secluded. Camp Lejeune is in Jacksonville NC, a city with a population of about 70,000, where as Camp Lejeune at any given point has around 40-47,000 Marines and Sailors on deck.
So every Scifi story involving zombies in America is saying is that 70,000 braindead zombies some how manage to over run and kill 40-47k trained Marines who all have easy access to arms, not to mention the tanks/artillery/CAS they can easily use.
the military is taught to aim for center mass, not head shots. so when they get in over their head and start to panic, they rely on their training, Center mass.
SemperMortis wrote: During a zombie apocalypse I would just go to the nearest LARGE military base. Because regardless of every Sci-Fi book/movie/TV show says they will be the safest place. Why? because guns and ......more guns and tanks and artillery and close air support and did I mention the guns?
TWD and FTWD all make there characters into these indestructible zombie killing machines that slay zombies with knives faster then you can blink an eye. And yet the US military, all armed with M16s, M4s, M240s, M249s and M2s (not getting into heavier ordinance) can't kill zombies before they are over run?
My favorite scene in FTWD is when the army guys go into the building and you hear lots of shooting and then something like 2 of them walk out and the rest are all dead and the zombies won somehow, flash forward a few episodes and the zombies over run the military installation but the civilians somehow survive and out fight the military.
If this ever were to happen then you better believe that the Military would lay waste to hundreds of thousands of zombies, not to mention that most major military installations are VERY secluded. Camp Lejeune is in Jacksonville NC, a city with a population of about 70,000, where as Camp Lejeune at any given point has around 40-47,000 Marines and Sailors on deck.
So every Scifi story involving zombies in America is saying is that 70,000 braindead zombies some how manage to over run and kill 40-47k trained Marines who all have easy access to arms, not to mention the tanks/artillery/CAS they can easily use.
the military is taught to aim for center mass, not head shots. so when they get in over their head and start to panic, they rely on their training, Center mass.
But civilians with no weapons training and most having never fired a gun can somehow hit that many head shots? and you keep forgetting...TANKS! how the hell do zombies deal with tanks? that is never really explained in any kind of way. Hell just make a fortified position with high walls and a double gate that allows tanks in and out and in between kills the zombies that come in with the doors opening. The 120mm isn't going to be as useful per say but it still has a 7.62 Cupola Machine gun on that thing, not to mention Crushing zombies under its treads as it goes along.
SemperMortis wrote: During a zombie apocalypse I would just go to the nearest LARGE military base. Because regardless of every Sci-Fi book/movie/TV show says they will be the safest place. Why? because guns and ......more guns and tanks and artillery and close air support and did I mention the guns?
TWD and FTWD all make there characters into these indestructible zombie killing machines that slay zombies with knives faster then you can blink an eye. And yet the US military, all armed with M16s, M4s, M240s, M249s and M2s (not getting into heavier ordinance) can't kill zombies before they are over run?
My favorite scene in FTWD is when the army guys go into the building and you hear lots of shooting and then something like 2 of them walk out and the rest are all dead and the zombies won somehow, flash forward a few episodes and the zombies over run the military installation but the civilians somehow survive and out fight the military.
If this ever were to happen then you better believe that the Military would lay waste to hundreds of thousands of zombies, not to mention that most major military installations are VERY secluded. Camp Lejeune is in Jacksonville NC, a city with a population of about 70,000, where as Camp Lejeune at any given point has around 40-47,000 Marines and Sailors on deck.
So every Scifi story involving zombies in America is saying is that 70,000 braindead zombies some how manage to over run and kill 40-47k trained Marines who all have easy access to arms, not to mention the tanks/artillery/CAS they can easily use.
the military is taught to aim for center mass, not head shots. so when they get in over their head and start to panic, they rely on their training, Center mass.
But civilians with no weapons training and most having never fired a gun can somehow hit that many head shots? and you keep forgetting...TANKS! how the hell do zombies deal with tanks? that is never really explained in any kind of way. Hell just make a fortified position with high walls and a double gate that allows tanks in and out and in between kills the zombies that come in with the doors opening. The 120mm isn't going to be as useful per say but it still has a 7.62 Cupola Machine gun on that thing, not to mention Crushing zombies under its treads as it goes along.
Also, artillery. You don't need to get headshots when you can just annihilate zombies with artillery shells from miles away.
The problem with fortified positions is delt with in almost all zombie apoc stories. Infected or rising dead will turn inside your compound at some point and the quickly spread, causing rioting and mass death from within.
It's how the evacuation centers were wiped out in Dawn of the Dead and The Walking Dead.
The idea of military training was delt with in the WWZ novel. They where using weapons designed to kill, not maim or dismember, but to pierce through the body, and aimed for center mass. So they failed because the zombie can keep going with a bullet hole.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not to mention what kind of people you would want in your zombie apocalypse team
1: Soldiers and Fighters obviously
2: People who can grow food. I would say go almost completely Vegan in a zombie apocalypse. Why? You dont know about the disease and if animals can carry is, but not be infected? What if that cow got bite by a zombie and is carrying the thing?
3: Laborers. people to do lifting, to plant food.
4: Psych counselors, Seriously, this will mess people up, you need someone there
5: Logistical Team: People to delegate supplies, food rations ammo, people whose whole job its it to do that stuff. Like a quatermaster kinda.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The idea of military training was delt with in the WWZ novel. They where using weapons designed to kill, not maim or dismember, but to pierce through the body, and aimed for center mass. So they failed because the zombie can keep going with a bullet hole.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not to mention what kind of people you would want in your zombie apocalypse team 1: Soldiers and Fighters obviously 2: People who can grow food. I would say go almost completely Vegan in a zombie apocalypse. Why? You dont know about the disease and if animals can carry is, but not be infected? What if that cow got bite by a zombie and is carrying the thing? 3: Laborers. people to do lifting, to plant food. 4: Psych counselors, Seriously, this will mess people up, you need someone there 5: Logistical Team: People to delegate supplies, food rations ammo, people whose whole job its it to do that stuff. Like a quatermaster kinda.
Im sorry I can't take this seriously, in World War Z they used weapons designed to kill not maim or dismember and that explains why the military isn't effective? And yet every movie/film/book has the survivors who are capable of killing thousands of zombies by themselves, equipped with the same M16s, M4s and 9mm.
In the military they do a thing called "Failure to stop drill" which is two to the chest and one to the head, so the idea that the military isn't trained to shoot at the head is...well false. Nor does it make sense that a fortified position gets over run because infection gets in. Yes they show it in every single zombie film and book but they always give half baked reasons how the zombies get in. *Carl gets bit, hides the bite, gets in the base, dies and infects everyone* failing to realize that the second a base compromised it would go on lock down and the zombies would be quickly contained. QRFs are always on standby so a large group of soldiers/marines would always be armed at any given point so there goes that theory as well.
I understand its fun to think about the whole idea of surviving a zombie apocalypse but in reality it would never happen because the military, even though the movie industry likes to disagree frequently, is more then capable of handling a situation like that. I would put my family's safety in the hands of 47,000 trained US Marines a lot more readily then a handful of civilians who can over power hordes of zombies with a knife.....
hotsauceman1 wrote: Go read WWz and you will see what I mean and why the military wasnt effective on the homefront.
So for my opinion based on facts,research into weapons, and military tactics to be more valid I have to read a fictional book that claims to know why the military would fail in a zombie apocalypse. The author of WWZ is Mel Brooks kid and has no military training, though he apparently got a BA in history.....god knows how because it also says he dropped out.
The military in a zombie apocalypse would win in its local areas, from there who knows, massed hordes of zombies aren't especially scary though because god loves us and provided the world with Napalm and the A-10 Warthog. However, rooting out all traces of the infection would be costly and take years if not decades, but I really don't foresee a scenario where the military would lose, unless the military was the ones who all became zombies, IE injected around the same time with the new flue vaccine that turns them all into zombies. then good luck to you
Ok no. the wwz zombies are not shambling undead. they are fast zombies. with hordes of numbers. it specifically says they have a hard time because their tactics and training are meant against thinking foes.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Ok no. the wwz zombies are not shambling undead. they are fast zombies. with hordes of numbers. it specifically says they have a hard time because their tactics and training are meant against thinking foes.
Well yes and no, the tactics side is meant to out think your opponent but the author places little to zero faith in the fact that the military is capable of rapidly changing tactics. If flanking and suppressing fire doesn't work, then good old lead walls work.
a Well supplied infantry fire team can pump out literally a thousand rounds a minute of aimed 5.56mm. I understand in WWZ the zombies moved fast and what not, but if 4 guys in a fire team can put out that much dakka and every squad has 3 fire teams and every platoon has 3 squads then a single platoon can put out something like 9,000 rounds a minute, and thats not including support from the Weapons companies who are usually attached to the line companies. And again, nobody has yet to answer me how zombies are capable of cracking open a Tank. Or for that matter how they intend to over run buildings such as Armories/SCIFs that when the doors are shut are basically impregnable unless you have some explosives. And in the case of the armories they still have fire points (the armored windows that a human can't fit through)
So if only 1 out of every 50 shots is a head shot they are still dropping 180 zombies a minute thats a lot of dead bodies and pretty soon the zombies are going to be spending more time climbing over the dead then running forward.
Shatter a leg bine, knee etc, no running.
Arm broken, one armed attack.
Shrapnal wound to eye, vision damaged.
You can reduce combat effectiveness
Zombie still human to a degree. Sever say a spinal cord....
Not so powerful.
Bradley apc has a 25mm he cannon. No issue there. .50 cal rounds hit like trucks, and while banned, exp ammo and dumdums suddenly are not vs the undead.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Ok no. the wwz zombies are not shambling undead. they are fast zombies. with hordes of numbers. it specifically says they have a hard time because their tactics and training are meant against thinking foes.
So according to the book, in real life, the best chance to survive against soldiers is just running straight towards them
Long story short, if you want to survive, better stick with mercen...private military contractors.
Seriously, though, that entire "soldiers aren't effective" thing is bullcrap. "Shoot their head!" " WE CAN'T SIR! WE'RE TRAINED TO SHOOT CENTER MASS!" "THE HEADS! AIM AT THE HEADS!" "WE CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN'T!"
...yeah. It's not just about military efficiency / weapons handling, it's also about discipline. Soldiers are less prone to panic, can handle danger situations more efficiently, need less supplies and sleep to work properly etc. All kind of military personnel is best to stick to in any sort of crisis.
This, however, has a price: you. If you are a civilian, you gotta make yourself useful. Dead weight is just that: dead. The most important thing in a zombie apocalypse is cardio, cardio, cardio. Running fast over a long time is the most important skill, perfect it with parcour skills. Paramilitar training also helps a lot.
If a zombie outbreak occurred, I'd be getting the hell out of Stamford. Not being in it. That's where I work. That's an awful place to survive a zombie attack. You'd suck and die.
Say...you wonder if the person writing the article knows something we don't and wants to clear out the stupid people who listen to him/her by going to these locations to being Z-food?
I'd end up rushing to Grayling, Michigan. There's a military base and the base and town are both seriously remote. And it's got one of the Great Lakes just a bit to the north, so that direction is mostly cut down from potential attacks. There's like 1 decent sized (for Michigan) city above it, everything else is from the south. Yup. That's where I'd go.
People don't think things through enough in scenarios like this.
For example: I live in a relatively low-populated part of West Michigan (the Kalamazoo-Grand Rapids freeway corridor). Everything from farming to weapons scavenging to fortifying with local resources (i.e. easily harvestible trees for motte-and bailey defences of a settlement) are covered. Problem is, we also get nasty winters to live through.
And even more damning of all---I am within the 100 "feth you" zone miles of the Palisades Nuclear Plant on the lakeshore to the west, which unless someone heroically thinks to shut it down properly, kills the lower quarter of the state if something goes wrong after it stops being attended to.
Winter and nuke plant failures are two things many scenarios gloss over.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The idea of military training was delt with in the WWZ novel. They where using weapons designed to kill, not maim or dismember, but to pierce through the body, and aimed for center mass. So they failed because the zombie can keep going with a bullet hole.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not to mention what kind of people you would want in your zombie apocalypse team
1: Soldiers and Fighters obviously
2: People who can grow food. I would say go almost completely Vegan in a zombie apocalypse. Why? You dont know about the disease and if animals can carry is, but not be infected? What if that cow got bite by a zombie and is carrying the thing?
3: Laborers. people to do lifting, to plant food.
4: Psych counselors, Seriously, this will mess people up, you need someone there
5: Logistical Team: People to delegate supplies, food rations ammo, people whose whole job its it to do that stuff. Like a quatermaster kinda.
I think you should go with only farmers and soldiers and people who have skills that support farming (you will need blacksmiths, carpenters etc.) Growing enough food to survive is already a hard enough task if everyone in the community devotes his/her entire life to it (that is what medieval peasants did, and they still suffered famine etc. whenever a harvest went bad for some reason or another) so you want to keep any extra mouths to feed to the bare minimum. The only people that are really 100% necessary beside farmers are people to protect the farmers. Of course, I suppose you could teach psych counselors and others to be able to farm or use a gun as well. But everyone in the group should be able to at least farm or fight.
Essentially, you would have to return to a Dark Ages society where everyone is a full-time farmer and all other jobs and skills are only done part-time whenever farming leaves enough time for them.
Of course, that is only in the event the military for some reason is unable to destroy the zombies. Realistically, the best option is to just go to your local military base and wait for the soldiers to clean up the mess. Tanks are OP vs zombies. There is nothing better against zombies than tanks. Except an Apache helicopter. An Apache helicopter has machine guns and missiles.
SemperMortis wrote: During a zombie apocalypse I would just go to the nearest LARGE military base. Because regardless of every Sci-Fi book/movie/TV show says they will be the safest place. Why? because guns and ......more guns and tanks and artillery and close air support and did I mention the guns?
TWD and FTWD all make there characters into these indestructible zombie killing machines that slay zombies with knives faster then you can blink an eye. And yet the US military, all armed with M16s, M4s, M240s, M249s and M2s (not getting into heavier ordinance) can't kill zombies before they are over run?
My favorite scene in FTWD is when the army guys go into the building and you hear lots of shooting and then something like 2 of them walk out and the rest are all dead and the zombies won somehow, flash forward a few episodes and the zombies over run the military installation but the civilians somehow survive and out fight the military.
If this ever were to happen then you better believe that the Military would lay waste to hundreds of thousands of zombies, not to mention that most major military installations are VERY secluded. Camp Lejeune is in Jacksonville NC, a city with a population of about 70,000, where as Camp Lejeune at any given point has around 40-47,000 Marines and Sailors on deck.
So every Scifi story involving zombies in America is saying is that 70,000 braindead zombies some how manage to over run and kill 40-47k trained Marines who all have easy access to arms, not to mention the tanks/artillery/CAS they can easily use.
the military is taught to aim for center mass, not head shots. so when they get in over their head and start to panic, they rely on their training, Center mass.
But civilians with no weapons training and most having never fired a gun can somehow hit that many head shots? and you keep forgetting...TANKS! how the hell do zombies deal with tanks? that is never really explained in any kind of way. Hell just make a fortified position with high walls and a double gate that allows tanks in and out and in between kills the zombies that come in with the doors opening. The 120mm isn't going to be as useful per say but it still has a 7.62 Cupola Machine gun on that thing, not to mention Crushing zombies under its treads as it goes along.
Everyone becoming a instant marksman the minute a zombie is spotted and a gun is held for the first time has always irritated me.
Tanks need fuel, and bullets, and odds are when the zombies hit the fan the middle east will stop shipping oil to the US. Ethanol is only good for about 90 days. Jp5 is only 18 months, diesel is 2 years if properly stored. So while everyone has switched to being farmers, the fuel is drying up fast.
The greatest weakness of the military has always been the supply lines. They don't grow their own food, they can't make replacement parts, and if they take in refugees, the food won't last a month. How long do the troops remain at their posts when their food is gone, when they wonder what's happening to their family many states away while they protect a different city, in a different state. Morale, the second greatest weakness of the military.
I know the discussion has moved beyond this now, but I just read the OP and I find it very interesting that my hometown is #1 on safe places to be in a zombie apocalypse. I also find it highly unrealistic given the aforementioned political climate of this city.
Back on the current discussion, the oil would be less of a problem than people think. The US is only using foreign oil because we would rather use that than use up our own reserves. When we eventually deplete the oil in the Middle East, the idea is that America will still have some and other nations will pay US good money for it. Or so I've heard, I don't claim to be an expert on the subject. America does have its own oil, so being cut off by the Middle East would not screw us completely.
As for the supply lines, that has been a problem for military campaigns for as long as humans have had armies. Someone wisely said "an army marches on its stomach." I know morale can be directly related to the integrity of said supply lines, as well. Towards the end of the American Civil War a fair number of Confederate troops deserted because they were sick of being stuck on the battlefield fighting for a losing cause and starving to death while they were worried about how their families were doing. Keeping morale up during a zombie war would be even worse, as soldiers would fear that perhaps their families had been infected and turned into the very enemy they are fighting.
Zombies won't wreck the infrastructure so there's no reason why modern civilisation cannot carry on after a Zopocalypse providing the surviving population can destroy the zombies quickly and retains enough technicians to restart the equipment before it starts to decay for lack of maintenance.
This also applies to farming. 100 years ago, countries like the UK employed 20% of their labour force in agriculture. It's now only 2%, thanks to efficiency gains. With modern farming methods a reduced population could easily be fed, as long as you can get past the problem of the first season following the event.
SemperMortis wrote: During a zombie apocalypse I would just go to the nearest LARGE military base. Because regardless of every Sci-Fi book/movie/TV show says they will be the safest place. Why? because guns and ......more guns and tanks and artillery and close air support and did I mention the guns?
TWD and FTWD all make there characters into these indestructible zombie killing machines that slay zombies with knives faster then you can blink an eye. And yet the US military, all armed with M16s, M4s, M240s, M249s and M2s (not getting into heavier ordinance) can't kill zombies before they are over run?
My favorite scene in FTWD is when the army guys go into the building and you hear lots of shooting and then something like 2 of them walk out and the rest are all dead and the zombies won somehow, flash forward a few episodes and the zombies over run the military installation but the civilians somehow survive and out fight the military.
If this ever were to happen then you better believe that the Military would lay waste to hundreds of thousands of zombies, not to mention that most major military installations are VERY secluded. Camp Lejeune is in Jacksonville NC, a city with a population of about 70,000, where as Camp Lejeune at any given point has around 40-47,000 Marines and Sailors on deck.
So every Scifi story involving zombies in America is saying is that 70,000 braindead zombies some how manage to over run and kill 40-47k trained Marines who all have easy access to arms, not to mention the tanks/artillery/CAS they can easily use.
the military is taught to aim for center mass, not head shots. so when they get in over their head and start to panic, they rely on their training, Center mass.
But civilians with no weapons training and most having never fired a gun can somehow hit that many head shots? and you keep forgetting...TANKS! how the hell do zombies deal with tanks? that is never really explained in any kind of way. Hell just make a fortified position with high walls and a double gate that allows tanks in and out and in between kills the zombies that come in with the doors opening. The 120mm isn't going to be as useful per say but it still has a 7.62 Cupola Machine gun on that thing, not to mention Crushing zombies under its treads as it goes along.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hotsauceman1 wrote: if you have the ability to ignore pain and alot of injuries.
Tanks, large trucks, tractors. Being dead is actually a serious disadvantage... Remember WWZ was written by Mel Brooks' kid. Its not exactly a serious military study of how to handle an attack of zombies. Give your troops simple motorcycle leathers and they are invulnerable to the zombie menace and can hack away with their Lobos (WWZ reference) to their heart's content.
Simple Kraals of circled vehicles provide an effective barrier for you to employ your Lobos. If its good enough to stop Zulu Impis in their tracks, and horse archers, its good enough for the zombies.
Kilkrazy wrote: Zombies won't wreck the infrastructure so there's no reason why modern civilisation cannot carry on after a Zopocalypse providing the surviving population can destroy the zombies quickly and retains enough technicians to restart the equipment before it starts to decay for lack of maintenance.
This also applies to farming. 100 years ago, countries like the UK employed 20% of their labour force in agriculture. It's now only 2%, thanks to efficiency gains. With modern farming methods a reduced population could easily be fed, as long as you can get past the problem of the first season following the event.
There's a great chance they'll destroy the infrastructure. Think about it, you hear the dead are walking, you work in a refinery that provides fuel to the military, do you risk going outside and leaving your family at home to go to work?
Those assuming oil will be a problem have never been on a military base its everywhere. Even with that said, the military is believe it or not, capable of shooting things in the head. I have a very vivid mental image of a particularly Jihadi with a new mouth hole in his forehead.
But anyway, the military is capable of head shots, they have tracked vehicles that can run over zombies in their hundreds, they have vehicles like the MRAP that are capable of the same feats, not to mention that conventional bombers could destroy large concentrations before they even got to a military base.
No, in a zombie apocalypse the entire thing would end in a few days while the clean up, and tracking down of the last handful of zombies might take months. But this would not be a serious event in human history. According to a lot of bumper stickers and T-shirts I have seen, it will be a holiday for a lot of people.
SemperMortis wrote: Those assuming oil will be a problem have never been on a military base its everywhere. Even with that said, the military is believe it or not, capable of shooting things in the head. I have a very vivid mental image of a particularly Jihadi with a new mouth hole in his forehead.
But anyway, the military is capable of head shots, they have tracked vehicles that can run over zombies in their hundreds, they have vehicles like the MRAP that are capable of the same feats, not to mention that conventional bombers could destroy large concentrations before they even got to a military base.
No, in a zombie apocalypse the entire thing would end in a few days while the clean up, and tracking down of the last handful of zombies might take months. But this would not be a serious event in human history. According to a lot of bumper stickers and T-shirts I have seen, it will be a holiday for a lot of people.
Contrary to all those zombie movies im pretty sure 99% of the time the military will be able to deal with it no issue. besides maybe the crossed or corporation supported one like Resident evil.
but id pose the question what would happen if the military was the one that turned into zombies, ether by large scale vaccinations gone wild or something else that takes a very long time to incubate.
SemperMortis wrote: Those assuming oil will be a problem have never been on a military base its everywhere. Even with that said, the military is believe it or not, capable of shooting things in the head. I have a very vivid mental image of a particularly Jihadi with a new mouth hole in his forehead.
But anyway, the military is capable of head shots, they have tracked vehicles that can run over zombies in their hundreds, they have vehicles like the MRAP that are capable of the same feats, not to mention that conventional bombers could destroy large concentrations before they even got to a military base.
No, in a zombie apocalypse the entire thing would end in a few days while the clean up, and tracking down of the last handful of zombies might take months. But this would not be a serious event in human history. According to a lot of bumper stickers and T-shirts I have seen, it will be a holiday for a lot of people.
Contrary to all those zombie movies im pretty sure 99% of the time the military will be able to deal with it no issue. besides maybe the crossed or corporation supported one like Resident evil.
but id pose the question what would happen if the military was the one that turned into zombies, ether by large scale vaccinations gone wild or something else that takes a very long time to incubate.
The deal is, its not like the flu. Its carrier vectors would be incredibly different and easier to deal with. Even if very transmissable (lets assume as fast as any virus known) its still not going to create instant armies of zombie/rabies people overnight. Further, humans are really crappy at surviving without our brains. Take that away and we're literally dead meat. The dead can't rise, and any rabies guys who forget how to use a faucet or get to a river are going to be gone in a few days.
SemperMortis wrote: Those assuming oil will be a problem have never been on a military base its everywhere. Even with that said, the military is believe it or not, capable of shooting things in the head. I have a very vivid mental image of a particularly Jihadi with a new mouth hole in his forehead.
But anyway, the military is capable of head shots, they have tracked vehicles that can run over zombies in their hundreds, they have vehicles like the MRAP that are capable of the same feats, not to mention that conventional bombers could destroy large concentrations before they even got to a military base.
No, in a zombie apocalypse the entire thing would end in a few days while the clean up, and tracking down of the last handful of zombies might take months. But this would not be a serious event in human history. According to a lot of bumper stickers and T-shirts I have seen, it will be a holiday for a lot of people.
Contrary to all those zombie movies im pretty sure 99% of the time the military will be able to deal with it no issue. besides maybe the crossed or corporation supported one like Resident evil.
but id pose the question what would happen if the military was the one that turned into zombies, ether by large scale vaccinations gone wild or something else that takes a very long time to incubate.
The deal is, its not like the flu. Its carrier vectors would be incredibly different and easier to deal with. Even if very transmissable (lets assume as fast as any virus known) its still not going to create instant armies of zombie/rabies people overnight. Further, humans are really crappy at surviving without our brains. Take that away and we're literally dead meat. The dead can't rise, and any rabies guys who forget how to use a faucet or get to a river are going to be gone in a few days.
Its quite true, its really hard to believe that the military cant deal with zombies. and even then the weather and time alone will kill off all the zombies eventually. its still why i fear the crossed zombies :/ they still retain intellegence and can operate vehicles and stuff but are completely psychotic and gave into their primal instincts. (its fethed up yo)
Its quite true, its really hard to believe that the military cant deal with zombies. and even then the weather and time alone will kill off all the zombies eventually. its still why i fear the crossed zombies :/ they still retain intellegence and can operate vehicles and stuff but are completely psychotic and gave into their primal instincts. (its fethed up yo)
Its quite true, its really hard to believe that the military cant deal with zombies. and even then the weather and time alone will kill off all the zombies eventually. its still why i fear the crossed zombies :/ they still retain intellegence and can operate vehicles and stuff but are completely psychotic and gave into their primal instincts. (its fethed up yo)
So they are Dark Eldar...or Vegas.
Vegas except its contagious. unless they just kill you.
SemperMortis wrote: Those assuming oil will be a problem have never been on a military base its everywhere. Even with that said, the military is believe it or not, capable of shooting things in the head. I have a very vivid mental image of a particularly Jihadi with a new mouth hole in his forehead.
But anyway, the military is capable of head shots, they have tracked vehicles that can run over zombies in their hundreds, they have vehicles like the MRAP that are capable of the same feats, not to mention that conventional bombers could destroy large concentrations before they even got to a military base.
No, in a zombie apocalypse the entire thing would end in a few days while the clean up, and tracking down of the last handful of zombies might take months. But this would not be a serious event in human history. According to a lot of bumper stickers and T-shirts I have seen, it will be a holiday for a lot of people.
Contrary to all those zombie movies im pretty sure 99% of the time the military will be able to deal with it no issue. besides maybe the crossed or corporation supported one like Resident evil.
but id pose the question what would happen if the military was the one that turned into zombies, ether by large scale vaccinations gone wild or something else that takes a very long time to incubate.
The deal is, its not like the flu. Its carrier vectors would be incredibly different and easier to deal with. Even if very transmissable (lets assume as fast as any virus known) its still not going to create instant armies of zombie/rabies people overnight. Further, humans are really crappy at surviving without our brains. Take that away and we're literally dead meat. The dead can't rise, and any rabies guys who forget how to use a faucet or get to a river are going to be gone in a few days.
Its quite true, its really hard to believe that the military cant deal with zombies. and even then the weather and time alone will kill off all the zombies eventually. its still why i fear the crossed zombies :/ they still retain intellegence and can operate vehicles and stuff but are completely psychotic and gave into their primal instincts. (its fethed up yo)
The military takes time to mobilize and plan, and the article I posted earlier shows how in 3 hours, a large section from north carolina to mass, and out to the Appalachia mountains would be zombie land. That's also ignoring the outbreak in chicago. The military does not have the forces to contain that large of an area, nor set up that large of a perimeter in 3 hours. I doubt a day would be enough time to even make a decent attempt at it. By the time the government realizes there's a problem, to organizing the military to defend against it, all the major cities could have fallen.
SemperMortis wrote: Those assuming oil will be a problem have never been on a military base its everywhere. Even with that said, the military is believe it or not, capable of shooting things in the head. I have a very vivid mental image of a particularly Jihadi with a new mouth hole in his forehead.
But anyway, the military is capable of head shots, they have tracked vehicles that can run over zombies in their hundreds, they have vehicles like the MRAP that are capable of the same feats, not to mention that conventional bombers could destroy large concentrations before they even got to a military base.
No, in a zombie apocalypse the entire thing would end in a few days while the clean up, and tracking down of the last handful of zombies might take months. But this would not be a serious event in human history. According to a lot of bumper stickers and T-shirts I have seen, it will be a holiday for a lot of people.
Contrary to all those zombie movies im pretty sure 99% of the time the military will be able to deal with it no issue. besides maybe the crossed or corporation supported one like Resident evil.
but id pose the question what would happen if the military was the one that turned into zombies, ether by large scale vaccinations gone wild or something else that takes a very long time to incubate.
The deal is, its not like the flu. Its carrier vectors would be incredibly different and easier to deal with. Even if very transmissable (lets assume as fast as any virus known) its still not going to create instant armies of zombie/rabies people overnight. Further, humans are really crappy at surviving without our brains. Take that away and we're literally dead meat. The dead can't rise, and any rabies guys who forget how to use a faucet or get to a river are going to be gone in a few days.
Its quite true, its really hard to believe that the military cant deal with zombies. and even then the weather and time alone will kill off all the zombies eventually. its still why i fear the crossed zombies :/ they still retain intellegence and can operate vehicles and stuff but are completely psychotic and gave into their primal instincts. (its fethed up yo)
The military takes time to mobilize and plan, and the article I posted earlier shows how in 3 hours, a large section from north carolina to mass, and out to the Appalachia mountains would be zombie land. That's also ignoring the outbreak in chicago. The military does not have the forces to contain that large of an area, nor set up that large of a perimeter in 3 hours. I doubt a day would be enough time to even make a decent attempt at it. By the time the government realizes there's a problem, to organizing the military to defend against it, all the major cities could have fallen.
Then you sir have no idea about the USMC. At any given point in time they have 2-3 MEU's on standby in the US who are ready for deployment overseas in 24 hours, seeing as they don't have to board ship or do anything else except walk to the firing line I think 3 hours is more then enough time. on top of that you seem to think it would take a long time to mobilize...it wouldn't. If it happened during the day then 95% of the military on these bases would be at work and ready to go, it would be a simple matter of issuing weapons at the armories and handing out ammunition which in an emergency is relatively easy. We had a 12 man squad assigned to the benghazi relief that was ready to deploy over seas (weapons issued and shots updated) in less then 8 hours.
SemperMortis wrote: Those assuming oil will be a problem have never been on a military base its everywhere. Even with that said, the military is believe it or not, capable of shooting things in the head. I have a very vivid mental image of a particularly Jihadi with a new mouth hole in his forehead.
But anyway, the military is capable of head shots, they have tracked vehicles that can run over zombies in their hundreds, they have vehicles like the MRAP that are capable of the same feats, not to mention that conventional bombers could destroy large concentrations before they even got to a military base.
No, in a zombie apocalypse the entire thing would end in a few days while the clean up, and tracking down of the last handful of zombies might take months. But this would not be a serious event in human history. According to a lot of bumper stickers and T-shirts I have seen, it will be a holiday for a lot of people.
Contrary to all those zombie movies im pretty sure 99% of the time the military will be able to deal with it no issue. besides maybe the crossed or corporation supported one like Resident evil.
but id pose the question what would happen if the military was the one that turned into zombies, ether by large scale vaccinations gone wild or something else that takes a very long time to incubate.
The deal is, its not like the flu. Its carrier vectors would be incredibly different and easier to deal with. Even if very transmissable (lets assume as fast as any virus known) its still not going to create instant armies of zombie/rabies people overnight. Further, humans are really crappy at surviving without our brains. Take that away and we're literally dead meat. The dead can't rise, and any rabies guys who forget how to use a faucet or get to a river are going to be gone in a few days.
Its quite true, its really hard to believe that the military cant deal with zombies. and even then the weather and time alone will kill off all the zombies eventually. its still why i fear the crossed zombies :/ they still retain intellegence and can operate vehicles and stuff but are completely psychotic and gave into their primal instincts. (its fethed up yo)
The military takes time to mobilize and plan, and the article I posted earlier shows how in 3 hours, a large section from north carolina to mass, and out to the Appalachia mountains would be zombie land. That's also ignoring the outbreak in chicago. The military does not have the forces to contain that large of an area, nor set up that large of a perimeter in 3 hours. I doubt a day would be enough time to even make a decent attempt at it. By the time the government realizes there's a problem, to organizing the military to defend against it, all the major cities could have fallen.
Then you sir have no idea about the USMC. At any given point in time they have 2-3 MEU's on standby in the US who are ready for deployment overseas in 24 hours, seeing as they don't have to board ship or do anything else except walk to the firing line I think 3 hours is more then enough time. on top of that you seem to think it would take a long time to mobilize...it wouldn't. If it happened during the day then 95% of the military on these bases would be at work and ready to go, it would be a simple matter of issuing weapons at the armories and handing out ammunition which in an emergency is relatively easy. We had a 12 man squad assigned to the benghazi relief that was ready to deploy over seas (weapons issued and shots updated) in less then 8 hours.
I do know about the USMC, those Navy guys are great. but would that 12 man team be able to issolate all of new york and keep any zombies from getting out? 8 hours is a long time, when you can lose new york city in 3. I know the US military is top notch, but they don't have the man power to quarantine new york. Or keep them supplied with enough bullets. there's only 182,000 active duty marines in the world, most of them are overseas, and you think that's enough to hold off 8,550,405 new yorker zombies?
and are 182,000 marines enough to cover a boarder of at a very minimum:
New York's width is about 320 mi (515 km) E-W, not including Long Island, which extends an additional 118 mi (190 km) SW-NE; the state's maximum N-S extension is about 310 mi (499 km). New York State is shaped roughly like a right triangle: the line from the extreme NE to the extreme SW forms the hypotenuse, with New York City as the right angle.
I don't think so, then in some location they'll run out of bullets, and have to fall back, allowing the zombies to claim more territory. You can see why no one would even order the military to try such an operation, when it's easier to set up defensive positions and consolidate your resources.
Frazzled wrote: I'm confused, is the argument now that several states can be suddenly overrun in three hours with no warning?
Even CREEEEEEED and the IOM couldn't do that (Unless he had a Crassus armored transport tee hee).
one person couldn't do it, but a self replicating army could. scroll up a bit to where I linked a huffington post link and a zombie simulator.
Simulators also have the mantra GIGO.
Just the distance alone. Please inform me how a person runs several hundred miles in three hours. Someone set the program to "Ridiculous Stupid" To achieve that Zombies would have to have access to massive air support, so they could drop all along the axis of advance to begin infecting people (Band of Zombies-101st The Moaning Zombies-Dead from Above!).
Again that works if the outbreak had actually swept the globe before and everyone is now spontaneously com busting as it were, or proverbial End Times, but in a scenario of rabies variant that can't happen with physics. People with rabies aren't suddenly, The Flash.
I was going to make the same point. A zombie might shamble at a constant 1 mile an hour, not needing any rest but also having problems getting around obstacles and choke points, and occasionally stopping to eat some humans.
It would take a zombie in Brooklyn a couple of weeks to walk out of New York state and start infecting new areas. This also assumes that zombies actually will want to wander about all over the place. They might just stay near the place hey died, unless motivated by something.
However, if you assume that the speed of advance of the zombie plague is quite slow, days rather than minutes, then it's possible for infected people to get out of New York using fast transport and create new sources of infection in remote ares. However in this scenario, the fact that zombification takes a long time reduces the rate and number of people that get turned into zombies.
Pretty much, if we're going with the standard has to bite someone to spread the disease scenario, we aren't talking a spread like occured in The Stand.
Someone may get bitten early on before cordons are established, freak, and drive 500 miles before he turns, but even then he'll only hit an isolated area. The government by that point will be on the alert for such and will be able to react quickly.
The only way we should end up seeing a total collapse is if it turns out to be something like Walking Dead, where everyone somehow gets infected, and it required getting dead to activate the disease.
The example I made was that with no prior warning my unit of 100-120 individuals was able to prepare a 12 man team for a prolonged overseas deployment in that short amount of time. Another example would be the MEU that was sent to Haiti after the natural disaster there, those marines were on leave after coming off a prolonged float, within 24 hours of recall the unit deployed. And in that example the marines were on leave around the United States.
could 12 Marines hold NY? no but I never made that argument and yours is rather foolish to even think that. the USMC is 180-190k strong, Camp Lejeune has about 45k Marines (Not counting the massive amounts of IIR and retired Marines who would voluntarily come back to service in the local area alone) If NY was suddenly plunged into a zombie apocalypse it would take days if not weeks for the zombies to get to NC. By that point in time the area would have been secured against such an outbreak and the military would have been bombing the gak out of the Zombies the entire way, so that by the time they got there it would be nothing to stop the handful left over.
The Idea of a zombie outbreak is fun but unrealistic, just like 40k is fun, but unrealistic.
I imagine if there were multiple million zombies heading out from Yonkers (WWZ reference) and couldn't be stopped by massed air strikes, you'd see KT sized nukes deployed.
ORRRRR
Just run through them with a line of APCs, tanks, and common tractors. Enough Crush and Grind to make Zhukov drink a shot.
Unless... Zombie Patton were leading them.
"moannn" Translation: "We will wade into them! We are going to grab them by the nose and kick them in the ass! We are going to go through them like crap through a Goose! Dog you know I almost feel sorry for the bastards."
Frazzled wrote: I imagine if there were multiple million zombies heading out from Yonkers (WWZ reference) and couldn't be stopped by massed air strikes, you'd see KT sized nukes deployed.
No, they would just start carpet bombing. Trust me, some B52s and all the other conventional aircraft are more then capable of laying waste to the entirety of NYC in a few days. Plus you have to factor in fires. Drop firebombs and that whole city (without a Fire department) is going to go up in a matter of a day at most. Most zombies would be crispy and the ones that escaped could be hunted down by conventional aircraft and QRFs from the NY National Guard and other military units sent to help. Again, Zombie apocalypse fun to think about, but bordering on the impossible.
by actual magic,
or wierd strength enhancing and mutating viruses,
alien tech or whatever....
Otherwise corpses wouldn't last, would have little to no strength or even ability to move, very quickly loose any chance of pentetrating flesh with their teeth never mind, clothes or leather. They might get you whilst you slept - if you left the doors open and slept naked in the porch.
They vary too much to have a coherent plan to work against All Zombies..............
I kinda want to make a comedy movie now about nerds who wanted to prepare for zombies, but then an actual zombie apocalypse happens and their misadventures.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I kinda want to make a comedy movie now about nerds who wanted to prepare for zombies, but then an actual zombie apocalypse happens and their misadventures.
SemperMortis wrote: The example I made was that with no prior warning my unit of 100-120 individuals was able to prepare a 12 man team for a prolonged overseas deployment in that short amount of time. Another example would be the MEU that was sent to Haiti after the natural disaster there, those marines were on leave after coming off a prolonged float, within 24 hours of recall the unit deployed. And in that example the marines were on leave around the United States.
could 12 Marines hold NY? no but I never made that argument and yours is rather foolish to even think that. the USMC is 180-190k strong, Camp Lejeune has about 45k Marines (Not counting the massive amounts of IIR and retired Marines who would voluntarily come back to service in the local area alone) If NY was suddenly plunged into a zombie apocalypse it would take days if not weeks for the zombies to get to NC. By that point in time the area would have been secured against such an outbreak and the military would have been bombing the gak out of the Zombies the entire way, so that by the time they got there it would be nothing to stop the handful left over.
The Idea of a zombie outbreak is fun but unrealistic, just like 40k is fun, but unrealistic.
I was just going with your example, you claim it takes 8 hours to deploy just a 12 man team. And now you've given up on containment from the start and are securing NC. Which gives the zombies more time to grow their numbers and disrupt the infrastructure. Wouldn't that be something, during the zombie apoc, america bombs the world trade centers ground zero memorial. jet fuel doesn't last long when in constant use and when you allow the zombies to disrupt the places that make the fuel, and block off routes to get you the fuel. Or your own jets bombed the bridges trying to keep the zombies out, and cut off any hope of bringing in new supplies.
I was just going with your example, you claim it takes 8 hours to deploy just a 12 man team. And now you've given up on containment from the start and are securing NC. Which gives the zombies more time to grow their numbers and disrupt the infrastructure. Wouldn't that be something, during the zombie apoc, america bombs the world trade centers ground zero memorial. jet fuel doesn't last long when in constant use and when you allow the zombies to disrupt the places that make the fuel, and block off routes to get you the fuel. Or your own jets bombed the bridges trying to keep the zombies out, and cut off any hope of bringing in new supplies.
Well my example was taking 12 guys literally out of weekend libo, getting them ready for a prolonged OCONUS deployment and getting them to Cherry point to await a flight out.
IF it was as simple as keeping Marines in the US and fighting it would be significantly easier and could be done on a massively larger scale. On top of that I never said I would contain NYC, my scenario revolved around securing the local area, NC has the entire 2nd MEF as well as Fort Bragg (82nd Airborne and a few other divisions) as well as Seymoor Johnson Airbase, MCAS Cherry Point not to mention New River Air station as well as the local state units. So it would be entirely feasible to establish a cordon in that state and move out to secure other states.
Frazzled wrote: I imagine if there were multiple million zombies heading out from Yonkers (WWZ reference) and couldn't be stopped by massed air strikes, you'd see KT sized nukes deployed.
No, they would just start carpet bombing. Trust me, some B52s and all the other conventional aircraft are more then capable of laying waste to the entirety of NYC in a few days. Plus you have to factor in fires. Drop firebombs and that whole city (without a Fire department) is going to go up in a matter of a day at most. Most zombies would be crispy and the ones that escaped could be hunted down by conventional aircraft and QRFs from the NY National Guard and other military units sent to help. Again, Zombie apocalypse fun to think about, but bordering on the impossible.
By the time the USAF gets around to doing just that, it will be too late. It will be a case of bolting the barn door after the horse has escaped.
Governments are the WORST when it comes to dealing with major disasters, for a variety of reasons. All you have to do is look at real-life examples like Hurricanes Andrew and Katrina. When the Los Angeles Riots broke out and got going full swing, just as with the Newark and Watts Riots back in the 1960's, the only thing they could do is contain it until it burned it self out.
That's how it will be handled at first. The authorities primary goal, at first, is to maintain order. Mostly by means that will do more harm than good in the long run. By the time the full scope of what's happening becomes apparent, the military itself will go into panic mode and finally scramble to deal with the real problem. But, like I said before, it will be too late. Things will be out of hand.
There are over 300 million people in the United States, with most of the population highly concentrated. The infection will spread fast enough that you will have major problems by the time people get out that "HURR DURR" state. You also have to contend with the living, which will accelerate the breakdown of order, in the forms of panic and civil unrest. Civilian emergency services and institutions, especially the police, will be overwhelmed between 3 days and one week. That will put excessive strain on the National Guard and sooner or later, they will also break.
Some States still have State Militias. But most of them haven't been used for emergencies in decades, becoming nothing more than taxpayer-funded "social clubs" and window dressing, not to mention "politically incorrect" by the 1990's. Because of that, most of them will be useless when things get really bad, if called up (and it's members answer the call) to begin with.
Knowing history, and being ex-military myself, it's a sad fact that active duty troops make poor law enforcers and peacekeepers on the home front. The rules of engagement will be different for Federal troops when called into action to deal domestic emergencies, as opposed to overseas warfighting, peacekeeping, and nation-building. When you have a group whose major reason to exist is to kill people and break things, that ties their hands significantly.
Sophisticated military hardware requires a substantial civilian support base to continue to function in the long term. That's why strategic total war doctrines are so effective. Troops can't build Abrams MBTs and Bradleys. BB Stackers can't fabricate Mk. 82s. The more sophisticated the equipment, the quicker it will break down without the civilian element in logistics and it's tech/industrial/resource base. Add in the fact that critical industry and tech firms are located in high population areas, and you have serious issues with long term sustainability of a major, modern military's capacity for warfighting. In other words, those B-52s might not be in operational condition for long enough to be effective against a widespread outbreak.
Destroying an infection with fire, as it were, only works if you have people that know how to make fire, or the means to keep the torches burning. If you don't, then burning the bodies isn't going to help in the slightest in stopping the spread of infection. Europeans learned this during the Black Death. The same principle applies to our modern, technological society.
In the end,the best way to deal with this hypothetical scenario is to nip it in the bud in the earliest stages, and take measures to slow/prevent the spread. However, politicians and their appointees are only Human. Politics, self-interests, emotion, and just plain incompetence will be the order of the day. So, you can scratch that. That's why if you rely on "the government" to come in and "do something", you will, at best, be disappointed.
Your best bet is to look after yourself and fellow group members, and go with a worst case scenario. Be self-sufficient and smart to survive. Don't wait for a bunch of bureaucrats to do it for you, because the odds are against them.
You best bet is to look after yourself and fellow group members, and go with a worst case scenario. Be self-sufficient and smart to survive. Don't wait for a bunch of bureaucrats to do it for you, because the odds are against them.
Remember, no prepper outside of Texas ever survives the Zombie games, because they forget the best defense is offense!
Frazzled wrote: I imagine if there were multiple million zombies heading out from Yonkers (WWZ reference) and couldn't be stopped by massed air strikes, you'd see KT sized nukes deployed.
No, they would just start carpet bombing. Trust me, some B52s and all the other conventional aircraft are more then capable of laying waste to the entirety of NYC in a few days. Plus you have to factor in fires. Drop firebombs and that whole city (without a Fire department) is going to go up in a matter of a day at most. Most zombies would be crispy and the ones that escaped could be hunted down by conventional aircraft and QRFs from the NY National Guard and other military units sent to help. Again, Zombie apocalypse fun to think about, but bordering on the impossible.
By the time the USAF gets around to doing just that, it will be too late. It will be a case of bolting the barn door after the horse has escaped.
Governments are the WORST when it comes to dealing with major disasters, for a variety of reasons. All you have to do is look at real-life examples like Hurricanes Andrew and Katrina. When the Los Angeles Riots broke out and got going full swing, just as with the Newark and Watts Riots back in the 1960's, the only thing they could do is contain it until it burned it self out.
That's how it will be handled at first. The authorities primary goal, at first, is to maintain order. Mostly by means that will do more harm than good in the long run. By the time the full scope of what's happening becomes apparent, the military itself will go into panic mode and finally scramble to deal with the real problem. But, like I said before, it will be too late. Things will be out of hand.
There are over 300 million people in the United States, with most of the population highly concentrated. The infection will spread fast enough that you will have major problems by the time people get out that "HURR DURR" state. You also have to contend with the living, which will accelerate the breakdown of order, in the forms of panic and civil unrest. Civilian emergency services and institutions, especially the police, will be overwhelmed between 3 days and one week. That will put excessive strain on the National Guard and sooner or later, they will also break.
Some States still have State Militias. But most of them haven't been used for emergencies in decades, becoming nothing more than taxpayer-funded "social clubs" and window dressing, not to mention "politically incorrect" by the 1990's. Because of that, most of them will be useless when things get really bad, if called up (and it's members answer the call) to begin with.
Knowing history, and being ex-military myself, it's a sad fact that active duty troops make poor law enforcers and peacekeepers on the home front. The rules of engagement will be different for Federal troops when called into action to deal domestic emergencies, as opposed to overseas warfighting, peacekeeping, and nation-building. When you have a group whose major reason to exist is to kill people and break things, that ties their hands significantly.
Sophisticated military hardware requires a substantial civilian support base to continue to function in the long term. That's why strategic total war doctrines are so effective. Troops can't build Abrams MBTs and Bradleys. BB Stackers can't fabricate Mk. 82s. The more sophisticated the equipment, the quicker it will break down without the civilian element in logistics and it's tech/industrial/resource base. Add in the fact that critical industry and tech firms are located in high population areas, and you have serious issues with long term sustainability of a major, modern military's capacity for warfighting. In other words, those B-52s might not be in operational condition for long enough to be effective against a widespread outbreak.
Destroying an infection with fire, as it were, only works if you have people that know how to make fire, or the means to keep the torches burning. If you don't, then burning the bodies isn't going to help in the slightest in stopping the spread of infection. Europeans learned this during the Black Death. The same principle applies to our modern, technological society.
In the end,the best way to deal with this hypothetical scenario is to nip it in the bud in the earliest stages, and take measures to slow/prevent the spread. However, politicians and their appointees are only Human. Politics, self-interests, emotion, and just plain incompetence will be the order of the day. So, you can scratch that. That's why if you rely on "the government" to come in and "do something", you will, at best, be disappointed.
Your best bet is to look after yourself and fellow group members, and go with a worst case scenario. Be self-sufficient and smart to survive. Don't wait for a bunch of bureaucrats to do it for you, because the odds are against them.
Some States still have State Militias. But most of them haven't been used for emergencies in decades, becoming nothing more than taxpayer-funded "social clubs" and window dressing, not to mention "politically incorrect" by the 1990's. Because of that, most of them will be useless when things get really bad, if called up (and it's members answer the call) to begin with.
Thats why they have National Guards now. While I agree that the government is slow to do much of anything, I believe that a true national emergency like this would have the same effect as pearl harbor or September 11th, IE they were looking for targets within hours. Katrina was a disaster as we all know but that is because FEMA became a dumping ground for political appointees and campaign supporters. The Military is more then capable of laying waste to a city like NYC in a matter of a day. As far as burning them out? If we can't make Napalm and other combustibles then the world is lost already because that is literally in the handbook.
Anyway I still say a zombie out break would be over in days and the purging would continue for a few months depending on how far it spread before it was quashed.
Yeah, "government" responses depend a lot on the actual people involved. A lot of times you don't really even hear about the successes, because that is situation normal and the problem is cut off before it ever goes anywhere. Ebola was neutered pretty quick.
A lot of time the slow response is because we are a free society and the situations involve individual action. You can tell people to evacuate, calm down, or whatever, but it's a lot tougher to force them. And with forces of nature, you aren't stopping it- you are just hoping to minimize casualties and rebuild. And even in Katrina, NO was repaired and rebuilt. Certainly much better than the responses to the Black Plague! But yeah, if everybody decides to act let a gak head or wait for "someone else to do it", nothing works; that is the very definition of societal breakdown.
Any problem so immense it cripples the US nationally probably is a cataclysm level catastrophe that all the prep in the world isn't going to help with. That's the problem with zombies/nuke/whatever scenarios. Either we can deal with them or we can't. And if it's so severe we can't, it doesn't really matter anyway.
You best bet is to look after yourself and fellow group members, and go with a worst case scenario. Be self-sufficient and smart to survive. Don't wait for a bunch of bureaucrats to do it for you, because the odds are against them.
Remember, no prepper outside of Texas ever survives the Zombie games, because they forget the best defense is offense!
Like that blond gal said in Diary of the Dead, "Don't Mess With Texas", huh?
Frazzled wrote: I imagine if there were multiple million zombies heading out from Yonkers (WWZ reference) and couldn't be stopped by massed air strikes, you'd see KT sized nukes deployed.
No, they would just start carpet bombing. Trust me, some B52s and all the other conventional aircraft are more then capable of laying waste to the entirety of NYC in a few days. Plus you have to factor in fires. Drop firebombs and that whole city (without a Fire department) is going to go up in a matter of a day at most. Most zombies would be crispy and the ones that escaped could be hunted down by conventional aircraft and QRFs from the NY National Guard and other military units sent to help. Again, Zombie apocalypse fun to think about, but bordering on the impossible.
By the time the USAF gets around to doing just that, it will be too late. It will be a case of bolting the barn door after the horse has escaped.
Governments are the WORST when it comes to dealing with major disasters, for a variety of reasons. All you have to do is look at real-life examples like Hurricanes Andrew and Katrina. When the Los Angeles Riots broke out and got going full swing, just as with the Newark and Watts Riots back in the 1960's, the only thing they could do is contain it until it burned it self out.
That's how it will be handled at first. The authorities primary goal, at first, is to maintain order. Mostly by means that will do more harm than good in the long run. By the time the full scope of what's happening becomes apparent, the military itself will go into panic mode and finally scramble to deal with the real problem. But, like I said before, it will be too late. Things will be out of hand.
There are over 300 million people in the United States, with most of the population highly concentrated. The infection will spread fast enough that you will have major problems by the time people get out that "HURR DURR" state. You also have to contend with the living, which will accelerate the breakdown of order, in the forms of panic and civil unrest. Civilian emergency services and institutions, especially the police, will be overwhelmed between 3 days and one week. That will put excessive strain on the National Guard and sooner or later, they will also break.
Some States still have State Militias. But most of them haven't been used for emergencies in decades, becoming nothing more than taxpayer-funded "social clubs" and window dressing, not to mention "politically incorrect" by the 1990's. Because of that, most of them will be useless when things get really bad, if called up (and it's members answer the call) to begin with.
Knowing history, and being ex-military myself, it's a sad fact that active duty troops make poor law enforcers and peacekeepers on the home front. The rules of engagement will be different for Federal troops when called into action to deal domestic emergencies, as opposed to overseas warfighting, peacekeeping, and nation-building. When you have a group whose major reason to exist is to kill people and break things, that ties their hands significantly.
Sophisticated military hardware requires a substantial civilian support base to continue to function in the long term. That's why strategic total war doctrines are so effective. Troops can't build Abrams MBTs and Bradleys. BB Stackers can't fabricate Mk. 82s. The more sophisticated the equipment, the quicker it will break down without the civilian element in logistics and it's tech/industrial/resource base. Add in the fact that critical industry and tech firms are located in high population areas, and you have serious issues with long term sustainability of a major, modern military's capacity for warfighting. In other words, those B-52s might not be in operational condition for long enough to be effective against a widespread outbreak.
Destroying an infection with fire, as it were, only works if you have people that know how to make fire, or the means to keep the torches burning. If you don't, then burning the bodies isn't going to help in the slightest in stopping the spread of infection. Europeans learned this during the Black Death. The same principle applies to our modern, technological society.
In the end,the best way to deal with this hypothetical scenario is to nip it in the bud in the earliest stages, and take measures to slow/prevent the spread. However, politicians and their appointees are only Human. Politics, self-interests, emotion, and just plain incompetence will be the order of the day. So, you can scratch that. That's why if you rely on "the government" to come in and "do something", you will, at best, be disappointed.
Your best bet is to look after yourself and fellow group members, and go with a worst case scenario. Be self-sufficient and smart to survive. Don't wait for a bunch of bureaucrats to do it for you, because the odds are against them.
Some States still have State Militias. But most of them haven't been used for emergencies in decades, becoming nothing more than taxpayer-funded "social clubs" and window dressing, not to mention "politically incorrect" by the 1990's. Because of that, most of them will be useless when things get really bad, if called up (and it's members answer the call) to begin with.
Thats why they have National Guards now. While I agree that the government is slow to do much of anything, I believe that a true national emergency like this would have the same effect as pearl harbor or September 11th, IE they were looking for targets within hours. Katrina was a disaster as we all know but that is because FEMA became a dumping ground for political appointees and campaign supporters. The Military is more then capable of laying waste to a city like NYC in a matter of a day. As far as burning them out? If we can't make Napalm and other combustibles then the world is lost already because that is literally in the handbook.
Anyway I still say a zombie out break would be over in days and the purging would continue for a few months depending on how far it spread before it was quashed.
The National Guard is Federal. They are over 90% trained, equipped, and supported by the Federal Government, and can be Federalized (which is what will happen at some point in a major, nationwide emergency). They are also part of the Army and Airforce's active reserve component, and subject to regulation and oversight by the Departments of the Army and Air Force. But I do get your point.
FEMA wasn't the only one who dropped the ball with New Orleans after Katrina. A racist, politically motivated black mayor, an appointee police chief who was dumb as a stump, a corrupt police force, corrupt city government, corruption in city services, and slow action by the State of Louisiana all played a major role as well.
The problem with 9/11 and Pearl Harbor comparisons is range of the disasters, and the fact that we knew who the enemy was (Imperial Japan and a terrorist group). And there were contingencies/preparations in place to deal with them on the Federal level. The only real surprise was the use of aircraft as flying bombs by the jihadists. The range of those disasters were mostly local, with most of the loss of life and damage concentrated in relatively small areas.
A hypothetical zombie apocalypse will be more along the lines of a global pandemic in scale, dwarfing even the worst of past pandemics. Sure, there will be the physical carriers of the disease that can be targeted. But by the time the military is authorized to use maximum force (the last resort option), then it will be too late. Even if you take the extreme step of targeting major cities with thermonuclear weapons. It will just be too widespread by then to be contained by straight forward military force, no matter how much firepower you have.
IF it was as simple as keeping Marines in the US and fighting it would be significantly easier and could be done on a massively larger scale. On top of that I never said I would contain NYC, my scenario revolved around securing the local area, NC has the entire 2nd MEF as well as Fort Bragg (82nd Airborne and a few other divisions) as well as Seymoor Johnson Airbase, MCAS Cherry Point not to mention New River Air station as well as the local state units. So it would be entirely feasible to establish a cordon in that state and move out to secure other states.
Uh, no. Bragg has a Division, the 82nd. There are other units there (HQ FORSCOM, HQ XVIII Corp, JFK Special Warfare School, associated support units...) but just one combat division, generally short a BCT which is deployed (operational or to training).
And NYC is a BIG city. We used about a divisions worth of troops to cordon off Fallujah and then clear it in a very slow deliberate manner....
IF it was as simple as keeping Marines in the US and fighting it would be significantly easier and could be done on a massively larger scale. On top of that I never said I would contain NYC, my scenario revolved around securing the local area, NC has the entire 2nd MEF as well as Fort Bragg (82nd Airborne and a few other divisions) as well as Seymoor Johnson Airbase, MCAS Cherry Point not to mention New River Air station as well as the local state units. So it would be entirely feasible to establish a cordon in that state and move out to secure other states.
Uh, no. Bragg has a Division, the 82nd. There are other units there (HQ FORSCOM, HQ XVIII Corp, JFK Special Warfare School, associated support units...) but just one combat division, generally short a BCT which is deployed (operational or to training).
And NYC is a BIG city. We used about a divisions worth of troops to cordon off Fallujah and then clear it in a very slow deliberate manner....
I could have sworn Bragg had another division, the damned place is massive. I was only ever there when my Nephew came back from Afghanistan back in 2012. But anyway, yeah Im operating under the Walking dead scenario where zombies will be drawn to noise. So once we set up defensive line they will just run into our lines of fire like they do in most zombie movies. Anyway, NC, Texas, New Mexico those are relatively safe states. :
If it starts in NYC, any state West of a major river is pretty safe. The Mississippii alone would be an insurmountable barrier.
The Appalachians alone would be almost impassable. Without water and food most of the zombie plague wouldn't last long.
Then NYC floods because all the sewers and subways are constantly running pumps. If there's nobody to maintain those Manhattan would be under water.
...Which I guess would stop your zombie problem. Unless they can ignore the current like that one film where the zombies could walk under water somehow.
IF it was as simple as keeping Marines in the US and fighting it would be significantly easier and could be done on a massively larger scale. On top of that I never said I would contain NYC, my scenario revolved around securing the local area, NC has the entire 2nd MEF as well as Fort Bragg (82nd Airborne and a few other divisions) as well as Seymoor Johnson Airbase, MCAS Cherry Point not to mention New River Air station as well as the local state units. So it would be entirely feasible to establish a cordon in that state and move out to secure other states.
Uh, no. Bragg has a Division, the 82nd. There are other units there (HQ FORSCOM, HQ XVIII Corp, JFK Special Warfare School, associated support units...) but just one combat division, generally short a BCT which is deployed (operational or to training).
And NYC is a BIG city. We used about a divisions worth of troops to cordon off Fallujah and then clear it in a very slow deliberate manner....
I could have sworn Bragg had another division, the damned place is massive. I was only ever there when my Nephew came back from Afghanistan back in 2012. But anyway, yeah Im operating under the Walking dead scenario where zombies will be drawn to noise. So once we set up defensive line they will just run into our lines of fire like they do in most zombie movies. Anyway, NC, Texas, New Mexico those are relatively safe states. :
82nd
18th Airborne Corp (support units)
One Special Forces Group
One Spook unit with a bunch of guys call operators.
Bragg is joined at the hip with Pope AFB
IF it was as simple as keeping Marines in the US and fighting it would be significantly easier and could be done on a massively larger scale. On top of that I never said I would contain NYC, my scenario revolved around securing the local area, NC has the entire 2nd MEF as well as Fort Bragg (82nd Airborne and a few other divisions) as well as Seymoor Johnson Airbase, MCAS Cherry Point not to mention New River Air station as well as the local state units. So it would be entirely feasible to establish a cordon in that state and move out to secure other states.
Uh, no. Bragg has a Division, the 82nd. There are other units there (HQ FORSCOM, HQ XVIII Corp, JFK Special Warfare School, associated support units...) but just one combat division, generally short a BCT which is deployed (operational or to training).
And NYC is a BIG city. We used about a divisions worth of troops to cordon off Fallujah and then clear it in a very slow deliberate manner....
I could have sworn Bragg had another division, the damned place is massive. I was only ever there when my Nephew came back from Afghanistan back in 2012. But anyway, yeah Im operating under the Walking dead scenario where zombies will be drawn to noise. So once we set up defensive line they will just run into our lines of fire like they do in most zombie movies. Anyway, NC, Texas, New Mexico those are relatively safe states. :
82nd
18th Airborne Corp (support units)
One Special Forces Group
One Spook unit with a bunch of guys call operators.
Bragg is joined at the hip with Pope AFB
It isn't even Pope AFB any more...
It is now Pope Field and Army run. Was there a few weeks ago to get finger prints done for my clearance renewal.
IF it was as simple as keeping Marines in the US and fighting it would be significantly easier and could be done on a massively larger scale. On top of that I never said I would contain NYC, my scenario revolved around securing the local area, NC has the entire 2nd MEF as well as Fort Bragg (82nd Airborne and a few other divisions) as well as Seymoor Johnson Airbase, MCAS Cherry Point not to mention New River Air station as well as the local state units. So it would be entirely feasible to establish a cordon in that state and move out to secure other states.
Uh, no. Bragg has a Division, the 82nd. There are other units there (HQ FORSCOM, HQ XVIII Corp, JFK Special Warfare School, associated support units...) but just one combat division, generally short a BCT which is deployed (operational or to training).
And NYC is a BIG city. We used about a divisions worth of troops to cordon off Fallujah and then clear it in a very slow deliberate manner....
I could have sworn Bragg had another division, the damned place is massive. I was only ever there when my Nephew came back from Afghanistan back in 2012. But anyway, yeah Im operating under the Walking dead scenario where zombies will be drawn to noise. So once we set up defensive line they will just run into our lines of fire like they do in most zombie movies. Anyway, NC, Texas, New Mexico those are relatively safe states. :
82nd
18th Airborne Corp (support units)
One Special Forces Group
One Spook unit with a bunch of guys call operators.
Bragg is joined at the hip with Pope AFB
It isn't even Pope AFB any more...
It is now Pope Field and Army run. Was there a few weeks ago to get finger prints done for my clearance renewal.
I drove through it 3 days ago and they still haven't changed the signs it still says Pope AFB. Though I know your right that it belongs to the Army now.
It is now Pope Field and Army run. Was there a few weeks ago to get finger prints done for my clearance renewal.
I drove through it 3 days ago and they still haven't changed the signs it still says Pope AFB. Though I know your right that it belongs to the Army now.
Yeah, the old check point (when you turn off of Butner onto Armistead) which used to be manned by Air Force SPs isn't even manned. Signs there now read Pope Army Airfield.
i know one thing for sure when I transported prisoners from Bragg to Camp Lejeune. The number of deer on Camp Lejeune could feed the base for years if they ran out of food. I have never seen anything like it driving from the main gate to the Brig.
I know on my property I have deer, rabbits (damned things nested in my hay storage), geese, fishing in the river and ponds, and in a worst case scenario the land lord's cattle and our pet goats. We can also throw up a trench backed by a berm pretty quick with the land lord's equipment, set up abatis on main avenues of approach, and have lots of barbed wire and other fencing material which could be moved around as needed.
I feel pretty good I can hold off the dead and live threats that would emerge (or just the love ones if we are talking a more realistic Bad Event).
