In the age of Scat Bikers, Tau's gundam wing, hell even the firewarriors, Necron warriors with 4+RP and what not the Ork boyz seem to have fallen pretty far to the wayside. Back in the day the old Ork Mantra was "Boyz Before Toyz" but now? I don't think that strategy is feasible, even with the new Orkurion that gives boyz fearless which negates the problem of mob rule they are still to fragile a bit to expensive for the current META where S6 is throw around like candy and weapons with 3 or more shots each are becoming standard. All of this teamed with the poor game design (IE GW designers throwing on Weapon AP to justify points cost or to give it a slight buff) pretty much negates the orks basic armor save about 90%+ of the time.
Personally I believe that Orks should be base cost 5, they shouldn't pay to change weapons to shootas because they suck anyway, and that Eavy Armor should be a 2, at most 3pt upgrade.
Any suggestions besides this? or do you think boyz are fine as is?
SemperMortis wrote:Personally I believe that Orks should be base cost 5, they shouldn't pay to change weapons to shootas because they suck anyway, and that Eavy Armor should be a 2, at most 3pt upgrade.
Any suggestions besides this? or do you think boyz are fine as is?
If you make them 5 ppm, then you are asserting that an ork boy is points equivalent to an imperial guardsman with a lasgun.
Personally, I'm in favor of giving them a totally awesome formation that can be run at 1000 points or more.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Formation: Oi, lets go for a ride!
1 warboss on a bike
5 units of warbikers
10 units of boys
All units of boys may take a trukk for free. Upgrades must be purchased as normal.
All units gain objective secured.
I don't think trukk boyz are the answer, since I generally see those as bad. I think some other unique rule would benefit them more. Their main issue is surviving long enough to get into combat. Short of a battlewagon, that isn't easy. Therefore, either make them tougher or faster. To make things less broken, I'd go for the second option with a rule that goes something like this.
Stampede: In the shooting phase, any unit of boyz may run 2d6 rather than 1d6. However, on a roll of doubles, the unit deals 1d6 S4 AP- wounds to itself to simulate the disorganized orks trampling each other while trying to get to the fight. Wounds cannot be allocated to characters.
Maybe throw in some other penalties like they can only make snap shots in their next shooting phase.
Maybe make this a special rule in a formation or something, but I think giving them a better footslogging speed would make actual footslogging lists viable. Combine this with a waagh! and you've got yourself some speedy orks.
Yeah, but rhinos can't be glanced to death by bolter fire, is less prone to exploding, and their occupants are more likely to survive the explosion. Plus, a rhino is better armed. I never put boyz in trukks anymore since they're just going to get blown up, then fail their fear test and run away. Put things like MANz in them and you're fine.
Vitali Advenil wrote: Yeah, but rhinos can't be glanced to death by bolter fire, is less prone to exploding, and their occupants are more likely to survive the explosion. Plus, a rhino is better armed. I never put boyz in trukks anymore since they're just going to get blown up, then fail their fear test and run away. Put things like MANz in them and you're fine.
That's supposed to happen. Orks are supposed to blow up. A lot.
That's literally how orks reproduce themselves.
Orks are a horde army that's supposed to take heavy casualties, but overwhelm the enemy in the end...if they made poor tactical decisions.
SemperMortis wrote:Personally I believe that Orks should be base cost 5, they shouldn't pay to change weapons to shootas because they suck anyway, and that Eavy Armor should be a 2, at most 3pt upgrade.
Any suggestions besides this? or do you think boyz are fine as is?
If you make them 5 ppm, then you are asserting that an ork boy is points equivalent to an imperial guardsman with a lasgun.
Personally, I'm in favor of giving them a totally awesome formation that can be run at 1000 points or more.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Formation: Oi, lets go for a ride!
1 warboss
2 units of ork bikers
10 units of boys with at least 15 boys in each unit
All units of boys may take a trukk for free. Upgrades must be purchased as normal.
All units gain objective secured.
So your answer to boyz sucking in the current meta is to give them a formation that fixes none of their problems, so if you want to field boyz at all you have to take your formation. Secondly none of the boyz will be able to ride in their Trukkz because the max size is 12in a trukk.
Vitali Advenil wrote: Yeah, but rhinos can't be glanced to death by bolter fire, is less prone to exploding, and their occupants are more likely to survive the explosion. Plus, a rhino is better armed. I never put boyz in trukks anymore since they're just going to get blown up, then fail their fear test and run away. Put things like MANz in them and you're fine.
That's supposed to happen. Orks are supposed to blow up. A lot.
That's literally how orks reproduce themselves.
Orks are a horde army that's supposed to take heavy casualties, but overwhelm the enemy in the end...if they made poor tactical decisions.
This is a poorly thought out argument. Ork Boyz suck because they need to suck and lose half their army because...reasons. Not trying to be provocative but I want to make them competitive not fit into GW's fluff that Orks always lose to the hero's, the Space elves and the Terminators.
Trukks are too much of a deathtrap, though, and it spreads them too thin. You blow up a truk with 10 boys, you'll lose on average 4-ish, 3-ish with heavy armor. That leaves a squad of 6 or 7 boyz. Those boyz aren't going to get any work done; they're just too small of a unit to do any real damage. Honestly, I don't take squads of anything less than 15. I feel even 10 boyz isn't much of a threat.
And it's true that orks can take heavy casualties, but you should be all means avoid it. Don't be afraid of throwing some of your boyz into the fire, but if you spread them all out in trukks, they'll never be able to get to the enemy. That's why an option like giving them a footslogging speedboost would be beneficial. They can still make use of cover and won't explode when a S5 weapon looks at them funny. Mass trukks just doesn't work well for them.
SemperMortis wrote:So your answer to boyz sucking in the current meta is to give them a formation that fixes none of their problems, so if you want to field boyz at all you have to take your formation. Secondly none of the boyz will be able to ride in their Trukkz because the max size is 12in a trukk.
1. I edited the formation. See the original post to which you responded.
2. It's directly analogous to the battle company granting free rhinos.
Orks, like all armies, should have determinate strengths and weaknesses. Those weaknesses should be exploitable.
This is a poorly thought out argument. Ork Boyz suck because they need to suck and lose half their army because...reasons. Not trying to be provocative but I want to make them competitive not fit into GW's fluff that Orks always lose to the hero's, the Space elves and the Terminators.
They suck and they need to suck individually because you can get a bunch of them for a relatively small number of points per model. That's the trade off. You're not playing marines, eldar or necrons.The answer isn't to make boys stronger. The answer is to let you bring more stuff so that, even if you sustain heavy losses, you still have the numbers to win.
Vitali Advenil wrote: Trukks are too much of a deathtrap, though, and it spreads them too thin. You blow up a truk with 10 boys, you'll lose on average 4-ish, 3-ish with heavy armor. That leaves a squad of 6 or 7 boyz. Those boyz aren't going to get any work done; they're just too small of a unit to do any real damage. Honestly, I don't take squads of anything less than 15. I feel even 10 boyz isn't much of a threat.
And it's true that orks can take heavy casualties, but you should be all means avoid it. Don't be afraid of throwing some of your boyz into the fire, but if you spread them all out in trukks, they'll never be able to get to the enemy. That's why an option like giving them a footslogging speedboost would be beneficial. They can still make use of cover and won't explode when a S5 weapon looks at them funny. Mass trukks just doesn't work well for them.
Then don't put the orks in the free trukks. Use the trukks as mobile cover and footslog the boys. Support with artillery.
Ten units of boyz is kind of ridiculous, though. Hell, I've talked crap about the current formations that require only six units of boyz because, like I've said, small ork squads don't work.
Also, I agree with you that ork boyz shouldn't be as strong as a marine, necron warrior, etc,. but I don't think the solution is just taking a gakload of them. With taking that many, you're forced to keep them in tiny squads if you want to put them in the trukks. The solution is giving them their own thing that would set them apart with a different play style. Keep them fragile, but make them faster to give them a bigger threat range. The issue is the only current ways to make them faster are with trukks, which are deathtraps which limit squad sizes, or battlewagons, which are expensive. Upgrade their footspeed and that solves a lot of their issues.
Then don't put the orks in the free trukks. Use the trukks as mobile cover and footslog the boys. Support with artillery.
Alright, that could work out a bit better I suppose, but 10 units of boyz is still insane. Plus, this still doesn't fix the issue of speed. Plus, if the trukks are dedicated transports, I'm pretty sure the boyz have to start out in them.
Vitali Advenil wrote: Ten units of boyz is kind of ridiculous, though. Hell, I've talked crap about the current formations that require only six units of boyz because, like I've said, small ork squads don't work.
Also, I agree with you that ork boyz shouldn't be as strong as a marine, necron warrior, etc,. but I don't think the solution is just taking a gakload of them.
That's literally how an ork army is supposed to play. Don't you read the stuff in italics?
Keep them fragile, but make them faster to give them a bigger threat range.
That potentially would make Orks too much of a threat in a way that would be strongly imbalanced against shooting armies.
SemperMortis wrote:So your answer to boyz sucking in the current meta is to give them a formation that fixes none of their problems, so if you want to field boyz at all you have to take your formation. Secondly none of the boyz will be able to ride in their Trukkz because the max size is 12in a trukk.
1. I edited the formation. See the original post to which you responded.
2. It's directly analogous to the battle company granting free rhinos.
Orks, like all armies, should have determinate strengths and weaknesses. Those weaknesses should be exploitable.
This is a poorly thought out argument. Ork Boyz suck because they need to suck and lose half their army because...reasons. Not trying to be provocative but I want to make them competitive not fit into GW's fluff that Orks always lose to the hero's, the Space elves and the Terminators.
They suck and they need to suck individually because you can get a bunch of them for a relatively small number of points per model. That's the trade off. You're not playing marines, eldar or necrons.The answer isn't to make boys stronger. The answer is to let you bring more stuff so that, even if you sustain heavy losses, you still have the numbers to win.
Like the Russians.
Except that in the example you just gave, the SM player doesn't take rhinos, he takes Razorbacks and upgrades the guns a bit or he takes drop pods which are infinitely better then trukkz. If I could drop 100 Boyz in your backfield in little squads without having to worry about them blowing up,dying to Deep strike rules or anything like that, hell yeah I would take that option. But trukkz suck compared to Razorbacks or Drop pods so your example isn't that fair.
You don't really get a ton of boyz for cheap because when you factor in their ability to survive, your paying for it down the line when your unit loses in CC because you only had 3 models get into B2B.
Vitali Advenil wrote:Alright, that could work out a bit better I suppose, but 10 units of boyz is still insane.
It really isn't. It's a 600 point commitment. The entire formation I proposed is less than 1000 points without upgrades.
Plus, this still doesn't fix the issue of speed. Plus, if the trukks are dedicated transports, I'm pretty sure the boyz have to start out in them.
No, that's not how dedicated transports work. Dedicated transport means that only that unit can start out in the vehicle. They don't have to, though.
and a squad of boyz without a nob with a Power Klaw isn't a threat. So your 600 point commitment realistically just jumped to 850. And having played games with that many boyz before (Green tide) it is a massive pain in the butt and slows the game down tremendously.
Traditio wrote: How about if orks had the ability to auto-run 6 inches?
That would help a tiny bit but your still not addressing the problem that they get shot off the table regardless. And a 6in Run doesn't change the game at all in general. Turn 1: Orks get shot or orks move up 6, run D6 (or 6) . Turn 2 They get shot at again or if they got to go first they call waaagh, Move 6, run 6 and attempt an assault.
I want Ork Boyz able to survive or at least not suck as much. and 6in run isn't helping that as much as necessary
to update for your update
Orks already have the ability to Run AND assault. In most armies it happens on turn 2 (waaagh) But the new, overly garbage Orkurion with ghaz allows you to run and assault on the 1st turn but its not that big of a deal and still doesn't fix how garbage ork boys are.
Vitali Advenil wrote: Ten units of boyz is kind of ridiculous, though. Hell, I've talked crap about the current formations that require only six units of boyz because, like I've said, small ork squads don't work.
Also, I agree with you that ork boyz shouldn't be as strong as a marine, necron warrior, etc,. but I don't think the solution is just taking a gakload of them.
That's literally how an ork army is supposed to play. Don't you read the stuff in italics?
I don't care how GW thinks my army is "supposed" to play; it just doesn't work. Yes, we can take more models than any other army, but doing that blindly will only result in failure. The italics are for flavor only, and should have absolutely no impact on how you take your army.
Vitali Advenil wrote: Keep them fragile, but make them faster to give them a bigger threat range.
That potentially would make Orks too much of a threat in a way that would be strongly imbalanced against shooting armies.
I disagree. They'd still be very squishy, and it would actually let orks get into goddamn combat against gunlines. Orks vs gunlines should be a thrilling battle of seeing how many orks the gunline can kill before the orks get there, and then having to deal with the broken line. It should not be the ork player praying that he actually manages to get a single unit into CC so the fight wasn't a complete waste.
SemperMortis wrote:I want Ork Boyz able to survive or at least not suck as much. and 6in run isn't helping that as much as necessary
Actually, it would be more like, if my fix were proposed:
Turn 1: Wall of trukks advance. Orks autorun 6. Half the trukks explode.
Turn 2: Wall of trukks advance. Orks autorun 6. Moar trukks explode.
You won't have enough orks on turn 3 to charge?
No you wouldn't for several reasons, indirect fire (IDF), the fact that trukkz don't block LOS only provide a 5+ cover save (rule specifically shooting through enemy units) and lastly, depending on how far those boyz are from those trukks the exploding trukks could take out 2-3 boyz in each little blob forcing a morale test and more dead boyz through the stupid Mob Rule.
SemperMortis wrote:I want Ork Boyz able to survive or at least not suck as much. and 6in run isn't helping that as much as necessary
Actually, it would be more like, if my fix were proposed:
Turn 1: Wall of trukks advance. Orks autorun 6. Half the trukks explode.
Turn 2: Wall of trukks advance. Orks autorun 6. Moar trukks explode.
You won't have enough orks on turn 3 to charge?
Best case scenario, sure, they can charge, but in my experience, squads of 10 boyz will not do much work against any army that isn't guard or tau. Hell, at times, even my squads of 20 or so orks, with 'eavy armor, don't do so well against a squad of marines- not until the powerklaws come in, at least. Honestly, this formation idea isn't horrible, it's just the scale. Town it down to like 3 squads of boyz that get free trukks, and you have to take a warboss on a bike and two bike squads. Then it could have some promise.
SemperMortis wrote:No you wouldn't for several reasons, indirect fire (IDF), the fact that trukkz don't block LOS only provide a 5+ cover save (rule specifically shooting through enemy units) and lastly, depending on how far those boyz are from those trukks the exploding trukks could take out 2-3 boyz in each little blob forcing a morale test and more dead boyz through the stupid Mob Rule.
1. Trukks aren't big enough to block LOS?
2. Keep the boys at least 4 inches behind the trukks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vitali Advenil wrote:Best case scenario, sure, they can charge, but in my experience, squads of 10 boyz will not do much work against any army that isn't guard or tau. Hell, at times, even my squads of 20 or so orks, with 'eavy armor, don't do so well against a squad of marines- not until the powerklaws come in, at least. Honestly, this formation idea isn't horrible, it's just the scale. Town it down to like 3 squads of boyz that get free trukks, and you have to take a warboss on a bike and two bike squads. Then it could have some promise.
A squad of 10 boyz with a nob and power claw is going to eat a tactical squad alive in close combat.
SemperMortis wrote:No you wouldn't for several reasons, indirect fire (IDF), the fact that trukkz don't block LOS only provide a 5+ cover save (rule specifically shooting through enemy units) and lastly, depending on how far those boyz are from those trukks the exploding trukks could take out 2-3 boyz in each little blob forcing a morale test and more dead boyz through the stupid Mob Rule.
1. Trukks aren't big enough to block LOS?
2. Keep the boys at least 4 inches behind the trukks.
Trukks have so many holes in them that no they don't block LOS like Rhinos or other tanks/transports would. Furthermore theres no way to block LOS for every enemy unit so they are still sniping boyz out of the squads and remember they only need to kill 3 boyz to force a morale test and boom even more dead boyz, by the time these guys get into combat and lose 1-2 models from over watch they will not be able to do their intended task.
Trukks have a lot of empty space, so the only way to obscure the boyz would be to press right up against the trukks and hope the enemy it on enough of an angle that they can't see the boyz' feet underneath.
If they're 4 inches behind then you can easily see more than 50% of the mob.
SemperMortis wrote:Trukks have so many holes in them that no they don't block LOS like Rhinos or other tanks/transports would. Furthermore theres no way to block LOS for every enemy unit so they are still sniping boyz out of the squads and remember they only need to kill 3 boyz to force a morale test and boom even more dead boyz, by the time these guys get into combat and lose 1-2 models from over watch they will not be able to do their intended task.
Ok. I thought of a hilarious idea:
To my formation proposals, I add the following special rule:
Orks are the trickiest and the sneakiest: At the beginning of the game, choose one model (may not be a LOW or an HQ choice) that your opponent controls. All of your units of boys and their trukks gain all of the special rules possessed by that unit.
If you play against marines, you just got ATSKNF and chapter tactics.
SemperMortis wrote:No you wouldn't for several reasons, indirect fire (IDF), the fact that trukkz don't block LOS only provide a 5+ cover save (rule specifically shooting through enemy units) and lastly, depending on how far those boyz are from those trukks the exploding trukks could take out 2-3 boyz in each little blob forcing a morale test and more dead boyz through the stupid Mob Rule.
1. Trukks aren't big enough to block LOS?
2. Keep the boys at least 4 inches behind the trukks.
Trukks have so many holes in them that no they don't block LOS like Rhinos or other tanks/transports would. Furthermore theres no way to block LOS for every enemy unit so they are still sniping boyz out of the squads and remember they only need to kill 3 boyz to force a morale test and boom even more dead boyz, by the time these guys get into combat and lose 1-2 models from over watch they will not be able to do their intended task.
A squad of 10 boyz with a nob and power claw is going to eat a tactical squad alive.
Standard Marine load out of a tactical squad, 1 sergeant with pistol CCW, 1 Missile Launcher, 1 Flamer and 7 bolters.
Overwatch, Wall of Death 2 wounds 1 dead Ork boy. Sergeant switches to bolter, so 8 bolters - 16 shots + ML = 2-3 hits 1-2 more dead boyz = 2-3 dead orks, so lets say 2
7 boyz left alive now keep that in mind. Marines strike first, 11 CC attacks 5-6 hits 2-3 wounds. 2-3 more dead boyz so lets say 2 for your scenario.
5 boyz left alive = 20 attacks 10 hits 5 wounds 1-2 dead Marines, Nob swings for 4 attacks 2 hits and 2 dead marines. Best case average scenario the Marines lose combat, and either stay in combat if they are unlucky, or best case they fall back and get to regroup and shoot the boyz off the table because they only have a couple models left.
So no, a 10 man tac squad EATS a 10 man Ork squad even with a Nob/PK because they should based purely on points costs.
SemperMortis wrote:Standard Marine load out of a tactical squad, 1 sergeant with pistol CCW, 1 Missile Launcher, 1 Flamer and 7 bolters.
Overwatch, Wall of Death 2 wounds 1 dead Ork boy. Sergeant switches to bolter, so 8 bolters - 16 shots + ML = 2-3 hits 1-2 more dead boyz = 2-3 dead orks, so lets say 2
7 boyz left alive now keep that in mind. Marines strike first, 11 CC attacks 5-6 hits 2-3 wounds. 2-3 more dead boyz so lets say 2 for your scenario.
5 boyz left alive = 20 attacks 10 hits 5 wounds 1-2 dead Marines, Nob swings for 4 attacks 2 hits and 2 dead marines. Best case average scenario the Marines lose combat, and either stay in combat if they are unlucky, or best case they fall back and get to regroup and shoot the boyz off the table because they only have a couple models left.
So no, a 10 man tac squad EATS a 10 man Ork squad even with a Nob/PK because they should based purely on points costs.
1. That fight is practically never going to happen. Combat squads is a thing.
2. It's not points comparable.
The fair comparison is 9 boys and a nob with power klaw (101 points) vs. 6 marines (5 with bolters and 1 with a rocket launcher) (99 points)
Orks charge. Marines overwatch: 10 X 1/6 X 1/2 casualties (10/12) are dealt, presupposing your opponent isn't using IF chapter tactics. You should have 8 boys and a nob vs. those 6 marines.
Marines strike and deal 6 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 5/6 (30/24) casualties.
You strike with 7 boys and a nob.
Boys deal: 28 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 (28/12) casualties. Let's round that to 2 casualties.
The nob deals: 4 X 1/2 X 5/6 (20/12) casualties. Let's round that to 2 casualties.
At the end of that round you have 7 boys and a nob left, and I have 2 marines left. Unless I successfully fail the leadership test and don't get forced to remain in combat because of ATSKNF, on my turn, I remain locked in combat and can't shoot your boys.
Chances are, you should be able to kill my 2 tacs on my assault phase, unless I charge something else in.
SemperMortis wrote:Standard Marine load out of a tactical squad, 1 sergeant with pistol CCW, 1 Missile Launcher, 1 Flamer and 7 bolters.
Overwatch, Wall of Death 2 wounds 1 dead Ork boy. Sergeant switches to bolter, so 8 bolters - 16 shots + ML = 2-3 hits 1-2 more dead boyz = 2-3 dead orks, so lets say 2
7 boyz left alive now keep that in mind. Marines strike first, 11 CC attacks 5-6 hits 2-3 wounds. 2-3 more dead boyz so lets say 2 for your scenario.
5 boyz left alive = 20 attacks 10 hits 5 wounds 1-2 dead Marines, Nob swings for 4 attacks 2 hits and 2 dead marines. Best case average scenario the Marines lose combat, and either stay in combat if they are unlucky, or best case they fall back and get to regroup and shoot the boyz off the table because they only have a couple models left.
So no, a 10 man tac squad EATS a 10 man Ork squad even with a Nob/PK because they should based purely on points costs.
1. That fight is practically never going to happen. Combat squads is a thing.
2. It's not points comparable.
The fair comparison is 9 boys and a nob with power klaw (101 points) vs. 6 marines (5 with bolters and 1 with a rocket launcher) (99 points)
Orks charge. Marines overwatch: 10 X 1/6 X 1/2 casualties (10/12) are dealt, presupposing your opponent isn't using IF chapter tactics. You should have 8 boys and a nob vs. those 6 marines.
Marines strike and deal 6 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 5/6 (30/24) casualties.
You strike with 7 boys and a nob.
Boys deal: 28 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 (28/12) casualties. Let's round that to 2 casualties.
The nob deals: 4 X 1/2 X 5/6 (20/12) casualties. Let's round that to 2 casualties.
At the end of that round you have 7 boys and a nob left, and I have 2 marines left. Unless I successfully fail the leadership test and don't get forced to remain in combat because of ATSKNF, on my turn, I remain locked in combat and can't shoot your boys.
Chances are, you should be able to kill my 2 tacs on my assault phase, unless I charge something else in.
So those 9 Ork boyz and Nob just walked up the field without getting hurt? no, they took a 30pt trukk with a 5pt ram. So throw in those extra 3 Marines into the equation. Also YOU said tactical squad you didn't say combat squad. If your going to change the useless scenario thats your prerogative but don't mess with the numbers after the fact.
Go take an Ork Trukk army and play it against most SM armies, who wins? if you think its Orks your lying to yourself.
getting back on topic, none of the suggestions you have made have helped in any way, in fact many are already available to orks and haven't helped make the Orks anymore competitive.
Trukks don't work and so many tournaments and Bat Reps have shown as much.
I think that either a point reduction or an increase in durability is needed in order to make them playable.
Why are all suggestions to 'improve' the balance all just more power creep. Orks don't need fixing. Eldar, Tau, spamming multi-shot S6+ AP2/3 need fixing.
Whittlesey40k wrote: Why are all suggestions to 'improve' the balance all just more power creep. Orks don't need fixing. Eldar, Tau, spamming multi-shot S6+ AP2/3 need fixing.
Because as much as I would love for that to happen, the power creep has gone on for so long that Orks have already waited about 2-3 years for the power creep to reverse. Even longer if you count the 6th Edition Shenanigans so in reality, I think I speak for most Ork Players when I say we are tired of deploying our forces only to pack the up about an hour later, having lost without doing to much.
And the problem is that AP2/3 don't bother Orks as much as they bother MEQ armies. Orks problem is that almost every gun in the game negates their garbage 6+ T-shirt save so we are at the point now where if you don't take Eavy Armor (which is a Over Priced option) you aren't able to stand up to about 90% of fire.
And please don't give me the BS "But it fits the fluff, orks are supposed to die in droves" if we are playing a game where the fluff matches the game Play then SM players should only be able to field 5-10 tactical Marines in a 1,500pt game and Eldar shouldn't play at all except once every 20-30 visits to the game store.
SO basically we either BUFF the stat line of the orks with better armor, Strength and such or we reduce the point value of them so that they don't effect the game as much when they are removed in the droves that you guys all want to see.
Whittlesey40k wrote: Why are all suggestions to 'improve' the balance all just more power creep. Orks don't need fixing. Eldar, Tau, spamming multi-shot S6+ AP2/3 need fixing.
Because as much as I would love for that to happen, the power creep has gone on for so long that Orks have already waited about 2-3 years for the power creep to reverse. Even longer if you count the 6th Edition Shenanigans so in reality, I think I speak for most Ork Players when I say we are tired of deploying our forces only to pack the up about an hour later, having lost without doing to much.
And the problem is that AP2/3 don't bother Orks as much as they bother MEQ armies. Orks problem is that almost every gun in the game negates their garbage 6+ T-shirt save so we are at the point now where if you don't take Eavy Armor (which is a Over Priced option) you aren't able to stand up to about 90% of fire.
And please don't give me the BS "But it fits the fluff, orks are supposed to die in droves" if we are playing a game where the fluff matches the game Play then SM players should only be able to field 5-10 tactical Marines in a 1,500pt game and Eldar shouldn't play at all except once every 20-30 visits to the game store.
SO basically we either BUFF the stat line of the orks with better armor, Strength and such or we reduce the point value of them so that they don't effect the game as much when they are removed in the droves that you guys all want to see.
I totally agree that Orks need help. I play against them and they're fun, but they do need to be more competitive. I just think that if we're wishing for fixes, wish for the power creep to stop. It's not like anything we say here is going to make any difference to what GW does, so if we're going to wish for changes that'll never happen, my preference is to tone it all back. That'll fix a lot more problems - not just Orks - then everyone wins. But hey, we're not GW...
SemperMortis wrote:Personally I believe that Orks should be base cost 5, they shouldn't pay to change weapons to shootas because they suck anyway, and that Eavy Armor should be a 2, at most 3pt upgrade.
Any suggestions besides this? or do you think boyz are fine as is?
If you make them 5 ppm, then you are asserting that an ork boy is points equivalent to an imperial guardsman with a lasgun.
Personally, I'm in favor of giving them a totally awesome formation that can be run at 1000 points or more.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Formation: Oi, lets go for a ride!
1 warboss on a bike
5 units of warbikers
10 units of boys
All units of boys may take a trukk for free. Upgrades must be purchased as normal.
All units gain objective secured.
An ork boy squad is equivalent to a imperial guardsman squad with a lasgun and the sergeant. And it's not like guardsmen are killing it right now either.
I agree with the above posters suggestion.
I'd even suggest having the nob be automatic free inclusion. So 50pts for 10 boyz and nob with or without shootas. 70pts with eavy armour.
I wouldn't take Traditio's input too seriously guys, this is the same person who thinks that Fire Warriors are OP compared to marines and that marines should be like "in the fluff" and curbstomp everyone because they're so-called demigods of war, even though Orks, like many xenos species, can beat the bajeezus out of marines like in the Beast Arises series or during the Great Crusade where one was even able to threaten the Emperor.
The issue with boyz is, as everyone noticed, their issue with delivery and making it to the enemy somewhat intact. I feel this is less on the boyz themselves and more on their transports.
Trukks should have a capacity of 15, and the ramshackle rule should be altered to give it a 5+ invuln. against all attacks that aren't armourbane, melta, ordnance or destroyer weapons, (since the main issues aren't one shot anti-tank weapons but rather the plethora of S6-7 shooting nowadays) which should honestly just be an Orky standard vehicle rule. Either that or ramshackle changes it so that any explodes result gets downgraded to the vehicle just becoming wrecked on a 3+. That way it doesn't do nearly as much damage to our boyz.
Battlewagons just need to cost the same they did before, roughly 90 maybe 80 points given how weak vehicles are in this edition, to make it so boarding planks are actually feasible as an upgrade.
IMO Ork boyz only really need to have somewhat more variety in what we can take to deal with the increasing amounts of threats with GMC and SHW without just relying on the klaw. Something along the lines of a super-stikkbomb (or hell if we're lazy just tankbusta bombs) for every 5 orks in the unit can be taken, followed by things like burnas or big choppas to give them more oomph in combat that can't be challenged out. Also, as mentioned previously, make shootas a free trade given how little small arms play a role nowadays in today's meta.
I also agree with the sentiment that eavy armour should be cheaper, 2-3 points given how little it does with AP4 shooting everywhere.
Vitali Advenil wrote: Trukks are too much of a deathtrap, though, and it spreads them too thin. You blow up a truk with 10 boys, you'll lose on average 4-ish, 3-ish with heavy armor. That leaves a squad of 6 or 7 boyz. Those boyz aren't going to get any work done; they're just too small of a unit to do any real damage. Honestly, I don't take squads of anything less than 15. I feel even 10 boyz isn't much of a threat.
And it's true that orks can take heavy casualties, but you should be all means avoid it. Don't be afraid of throwing some of your boyz into the fire, but if you spread them all out in trukks, they'll never be able to get to the enemy. That's why an option like giving them a footslogging speedboost would be beneficial. They can still make use of cover and won't explode when a S5 weapon looks at them funny. Mass trukks just doesn't work well for them.
I think trukks are great for boyz except when they blow up which is all to common of an occurance. My suggestion is go back to something similar to the old ramshackle rules where all or most penetrating hits are reduced to glancing or just -2 to the roll on the pen table which basically means it's near impossible to explode the trukk. They will still be easy to destroy but they provide some protection and speed to Orks. If you want something more survivable that's what the battlewagon is for which is really just another transport and not really a tank equivalent.
I'd say mob rules isn't a bad idea either however the actual d6 chart is just poorly thought out.
Martel732 wrote: Make boyz 5 pts and guardsmen 3 pts. No more formation fixes.
Deal.
I also like the idea of the squad getting a free nob. A mob of boyz without a leader doesn't seem right. They should have a gang mentality, rallying around a boss. And if the boss dies, either a new one takes over or the mob disbands and joins another one. So yeah, make the basic squad consist of a Nob boss (character) and 9 boyz for 50-60pts. Heavy armour 2pts a boy.
Another thing that orcs could use are medics. In my opinion, all 40k armies need more medics. There's the pain boss yes, but if he is the Doc equivalent to a Big Mek, then you guys need an ordinary Mek equivalent. Giving the mobs feel no pain would help more of them survive long enough to get into fights. Using my experience of the IG, I'd say let an ork player take 0-3 Docs (Pain Boys?) as a single HQ choice that doesn't take up a FOC slot (there should also be the same option for ordinary meks and weird boys too). Sat wise, they'd be an ork slugga boy with docs tools, urty syringes and the option to take grot orderlies.
As for ramshackle, I think trukks, buggies and war tracks should all get it. And what I would do is say that when rolling to penetrate the vehicle, the enemy has to roll an extra dice, and discard the highest.
let orks deploy from the midline it sounds broken, but with all the ridiculous shooting and special rules packages flying around that two editions ago would have sounded ludicrous all sorted around shooting and shooting units its not that far off the page. and you cant deny it would make them silly competitive anf force your opponents in other armies to really go back to the drawing board on fighting orks. getting totally bogged down in cc's turn 1-2 basically ruins your ability to shoot so hard. and with so many armies out there focused on it to the point of obsession it would be a real changing of the winds in 40k. specifically on the tournament level.
you might even see people just gamble on not fighting orks which would make for great youtube video submissions. watching jetbike spam with wave serpents getting charged on turn 1 and moved down by the "comedy regiment" fitted for war with claws and choppas and killsaws murdering their way to the other side of the table with total abandon because the other guy neglected to even consider an ork charge that early
Indeed. First thing first is making the orks able to make it into close combat against an enemy with a strong ranged game. In practice get the game designers to play orks and have the orks reach the eldar/tau line with enough meat to have an interesting game.
Different Ways to do This:
-Give boyz FnP(5) or (6).
-Let ramshackle force opponent to roll two dice and pick the lowest result. (Good one there FWC.)
-Cheaper boyz. Free transports or free upgrades will achieve that. Nobz will look interesting if this becomes a thing.
Upping the powerlevel will eschew the balance. Just like any of the top codexii you can build below top notch lists if you want.
Regarding fnp I think the painboss and painboy idea like the big Mek and Mek is a good answer. I also think cybork bodies should be +1 fnp if it doesn't go back to 5+ invul.
Fnp has its own limitations that doesn't make it to strong on Orks. Str 8 weapons will still kill Orks outright, and a few other specials.
I'm not so sure about the half table deployment rules that's basically just a better version of army wide infiltrate that can charge turn 1. That seems to be a bit much beyond what should be allowed.
The ork Bossboy formation has pretty cool rule. Give D3 ork units outflank and acute senses. The formation itself kind of sucks because it's essentially a 5 hq tax for it. Just give the codex detachment that rule instead of the dumb and entirely worthless Hammer of Wrath rule and you'll see a ton of Orky gak that's fallen behind become semi usefully again. (Large Boy Mobs, Deff Dreads, G&M nauts, killa kans, burna boyz.)
Alternatively, the Renengades have the horde rule where any unit of however many models it was is destroyed they instead enter ongoing reserve.
Fluff wise, It's almost impossible to keep tabs on an Ork Waaagh which is constantly splintering off and rejoining itself. Either of these rules would work representing that as well as making orks competitive without an entirely new book.
Importantly, FNP on T4 models means that to ID them you need weapons that can't be spammed. This is why it'd be much more useful on Orks than it is on, say, Dark Eldar. (Where it's already not too bad...)
I also propose the WHEEEEE! and I think I can; I think I can! special rule for all ork vehicles:
WHEEEE!: If this model should be removed from play due to rolling a result of "Explodes!" on the vehicle damage table, place the scatter die at some point within x inches from this model prior to it being removed, where x is the number rolled for the distance of the explosion. Place the embarked unit there. Roll the scatter dice to determine where they land. These models take explosion hits as normal. Should a mishap result, simply move the unit the least distance required to avoid it.
I think I can; I think I can!: Roll 1d6 prior to rolling the scatter die for the WHEEEE! special rule. On a 1-3 result, the ork player may choose the direction of the scatter (even on a HIT result, he may choose to ignore the HIT result, choose a direction, and move the unit full scatter). On a 4-6, he may reroll the scatter dice.
Being a bit conservative - whatever fix it is should have the clear aim of providing an equal game against shooty armies out there.
The formation suggested is good, with something free thrown in, for easy GW math. Be it free upgrades (ard boyz everywhere and nobz with PK gets repetitive though), free weapon upgrades (PK everywhere, practically just a 25 pts rebate on units) or transports (10-12 boyz = free trukk; 15-20 boyz = free battle wagon). 5 units of bikes with ObSec is also really nice.
+12" deployment zone would go a long way to help boyz mobs on the table.
JimOnMars wrote: 5ppm, shoota is free, st=4, 4+ = 3pts, Nobz LD8, disordered charge with no penalty (ALL Ork charges are disordered!)
S5 boyz on the charge would not only be fun it would make sense against MEQ shooty armies, yeah your better at ranged combat, but when we get close, on our assault phase we are S5.
S4 Boyz and no disorganized charge penalty would make ork boyz almost playable again, and giving them a 1pt reduction in price yeah your hitting the nail on the head now, this would give a huge bump to the ork codex and make it competitive again.
SemperMortis wrote:S5 boyz on the charge would not only be fun it would make sense against MEQ shooty armies, yeah your better at ranged combat, but when we get close, on our assault phase we are S5.
Why should they be stronger than space marines on the charge?
It makes sense to make them all S4 (they're naturally stronger than gaurdsmen regardless) and remove the furious charge special rule.
JimOnMars wrote: 5ppm, shoota is free, st=4, 4+ = 3pts, Nobz LD8, disordered charge with no penalty (ALL Ork charges are disordered!)
S5 boyz on the charge would not only be fun it would make sense against MEQ shooty armies, yeah your better at ranged combat, but when we get close, on our assault phase we are S5.
S4 Boyz and no disorganized charge penalty would make ork boyz almost playable again, and giving them a 1pt reduction in price yeah your hitting the nail on the head now, this would give a huge bump to the ork codex and make it competitive again.
Yep. Make the ork boyz as good at their specialty as Fire Warriors are at theirs.
SemperMortis wrote:S5 boyz on the charge would not only be fun it would make sense against MEQ shooty armies, yeah your better at ranged combat, but when we get close, on our assault phase we are S5.
Why should they be stronger than space marines on the charge?
It makes sense to make them all S4 (they're naturally stronger than gaurdsmen regardless) and remove the furious charge special rule.
Furious charge doesn't imply that they suddenly gain strength, that is just a fault of the mechanic. It just means they get a mini-hammer of wrath because they are running so fast.
Also, Ork Biceps > Space Marine Biceps. Jes Sayin'.
JimOnMars wrote:Yep. Make the ork boyz as good at their specialty as Fire Warriors are at theirs.
For their points cost, they basically already are. That's a 2 in the attacks section of the statline.
Not to mention that an ork boy costs fewer points than a fire warrior.
4+ armored boy is 10. FW is 10. For that, they have worse st (3 to 5) and worse leadership.
# of Attacks is no more superior than the pulse rifle's range, so those are already functionally equivalent.
FW exceeds orks with ST and Leadership at the same cost.
1. It's S4 on the charge for orks.
2. The actual number of attacks, even not on the charge, is 3 for an ork boy (2+1 for dual wielding), 4 on the charge.
Consider vs. a marine. Let us assume rapidfire range:
A fire warrior has a 2 X 1/2 X 2/3 X 1/3 (4/18 or 2/9) chance of killing a space marine.
An ork boy has a 4 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 (4/12 or 1/3) chance of killing a space marine on the charge.
An ork boy on the charge (discounting overwatch) is slightly more dangerous than a firewarrior within rapidfire range.
Personally, if you want to go that route, I'd propose removing furious charge, changing the ork boy statline to S4 and adding the rage special rule.
JimOnMars wrote:Yep. Make the ork boyz as good at their specialty as Fire Warriors are at theirs.
For their points cost, they basically already are. That's a 2 in the attacks section of the statline.
Not to mention that an ork boy costs fewer points than a fire warrior.
4+ armored boy is 10. FW is 10. For that, they have worse st (3 to 5) and worse leadership.
# of Attacks is no more superior than the pulse rifle's range, so those are already functionally equivalent.
FW exceeds orks with ST and Leadership at the same cost.
1. It's S4 on the charge for orks.
2. The actual number of attacks, even not on the charge, is 3 for an ork boy (2+1 for dual wielding), 4 on the charge.
Consider vs. a marine. Let us assume rapidfire range:
A fire warrior has a 2 X 1/2 X 2/3 X 1/3 (4/18 or 2/9) chance of killing a space marine.
An ork boy has a 4 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 (4/12 or 1/3) chance of killing a space marine on the charge.
An ork boy on the charge (discounting overwatch) is slightly more dangerous than a firewarrior within rapidfire range.
Personally, if you want to go that route, I'd propose removing furious charge, changing the ork boy statline to S4 and adding the rage special rule.
The part about this that is wrong is that for those Orks to get into CC against those SM's they have to wade through the SM's fire for 2 turns, or 1 turn if they get the 1st turn. In contrast for the SMs to inflict any casualties on those FW's shooting them they need to move 6 inches INTO range of the Firewarriors.
So when you factor in the casualties the orks will sustain from ranged weapons before they get to assault you will see that FWs are significantly better at what they do then Ork Boyz. Making Ork boyz S5 on the charge makes sense, Ork boys should have been S4 from the start and anyone who plays the game or reads the fluff knows this.
JimOnMars wrote:Yep. Make the ork boyz as good at their specialty as Fire Warriors are at theirs.
For their points cost, they basically already are. That's a 2 in the attacks section of the statline.
Not to mention that an ork boy costs fewer points than a fire warrior.
4+ armored boy is 10. FW is 10. For that, they have worse st (3 to 5) and worse leadership.
# of Attacks is no more superior than the pulse rifle's range, so those are already functionally equivalent.
FW exceeds orks with ST and Leadership at the same cost.
1. It's S4 on the charge for orks.
2. The actual number of attacks, even not on the charge, is 3 for an ork boy (2+1 for dual wielding), 4 on the charge.
Consider vs. a marine. Let us assume rapidfire range:
A fire warrior has a 2 X 1/2 X 2/3 X 1/3 (4/18 or 2/9) chance of killing a space marine.
An ork boy has a 4 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 (4/12 or 1/3) chance of killing a space marine on the charge.
An ork boy on the charge (discounting overwatch) is slightly more dangerous than a firewarrior within rapidfire range.
Personally, if you want to go that route, I'd propose removing furious charge, changing the ork boy statline to S4 and adding the rage special rule.
Completely ignoring the 30" range argument, nice job. The fire warrior gets to shoot multiple times in complete safety from the ork boy. Also "discounting overwatch". If you "Discount Pulse Rifles", the firewarior is actually pretty weak. LOL.
Completely ignoring the 30" range argument, nice job. The fire warrior gets to shoot multiple times in complete safety from the ork boy. Also "discounting overwatch". If you "Discount Pulse Rifles", the firewarior is actually pretty weak. LOL.
If you discount ork's having to get into CC to be effective they are really strong.
Likewise if you discount Orks inability to survive any kind of shooting in the current edition they are amazingly powerful, probably the most OP unit in the game
All orks could have furious charge and counter attack. An orks mentality should be attack attack attack imo. With this, either on the charge or not, orks will have very high numbers of attacks in the first turn of fighting.
There was another thread around here that suggested Clan specific special rules that I quite liked. +1 Strength for Goffs, +1 FNP save for Snake Bites etc. They would definitely improve the boyz.
Completely ignoring the 30" range argument, nice job. The fire warrior gets to shoot multiple times in complete safety from the ork boy. Also "discounting overwatch". If you "Discount Pulse Rifles", the firewarior is actually pretty weak. LOL.
If you discount ork's having to get into CC to be effective they are really strong.
Likewise if you discount Orks inability to survive any kind of shooting in the current edition they are amazingly powerful, probably the most OP unit in the game
Yep. Or since fire warriors can shoot 30", let ork boyz charge 5d6.
All orks could have furious charge and counter attack. An orks mentality should be attack attack attack imo. With this, either on the charge or not, orks will have very high numbers of attacks in the first turn of fighting.
There was another thread around here that suggested Clan specific special rules that I quite liked. +1 Strength for Goffs, +1 FNP save for Snake Bites etc. They would definitely improve the boyz.
Except nobody in their right mind charges a squad of Ork Boyz unless they already know they are going to win. IE the boyz are already down to a minimum or the attacker is TWC
So Counter-attack would be about as useful as Stickbomb chuckas on a trukk.
SemperMortis wrote:The part about this that is wrong is that for those Orks to get into CC against those SM's they have to wade through the SM's fire for 2 turns, or 1 turn if they get the 1st turn. In contrast for the SMs to inflict any casualties on those FW's shooting them they need to move 6 inches INTO range of the Firewarriors.
So when you factor in the casualties the orks will sustain from ranged weapons before they get to assault you will see that FWs are significantly better at what they do then Ork Boyz. Making Ork boyz S5 on the charge makes sense, Ork boys should have been S4 from the start and anyone who plays the game or reads the fluff knows this.
1. I fully agree that ork boys should be base S4. Again, I think it's pretty daft to think that ork muscles = imperial guard muscles. I mean, it's kind of a joke, isn't it? About how Orks think that the humies are fragile and tiny?
2. I generally agree with the rest of your assessment.
However, these are basically the problems that I'm having:
1. Ork boys cost 1 more point than an imperial guardsman. By right, ork boys should be 1/5th better than an average guardman. They should be a little less than half as good as a space marine. Thus the reason I'm averse to ramping them up too much (aside, of course, from formations).
2. The gist of the ork complaint that I'm getting is: "We take a lot of casualties trying to get into close combat, and we're a close combat army."
Yes, that's true. But it omits a key word: "We're a close combat horde army."
It's a really fine line. As it stands, you get mowed down trying to cross the field, especially against tau and eldar.
But if you ramp up ork mobility too much, then all of a sudden, there's the distinct possibility that my marines end up getting tabled turn 2 or 3 by an overwhelming ork hord.
Ramp up ork mobility too much, and you face the prospect of orks tabling pretty much any shooting army that doesn't rely on superheavies on turn 2 or 3.
Same problem with making orks too durable.
How do you toe that line between making orks terrible and making orks OP? I suppose that's the flip side of asking how you toe the line between making tau terrible and making tau OP.
Personally, I think that free trukks approaches the line, even if it doesn't quite step on it.
I personally agree with Base s4, and rage instead of furious charge. Also counter-attack. Would certainly make Ork boys scary for any mid-tier army, which is fine since most of us would like to see the top tier brought down to about mid tier.
1: Trukkz are Garbage, suicide boxes that generally incapacitate any Mob stupid enough to get in it. EXAMPLE: When (Not if) the trukk explodes it causes about 50% Casualties from the explosion and the follow on Mob rule tests. So now they are useless in CC because they won't survive and might not even be able to hide the Nob/PK.
2: Giving free trukks away is forcing you to make your "HORDE" Army into a MSU troops army that relies completely on AV10 vehicles, in an edition where vehicles in general are under powered Gak.
3: Giving Ork boyz trukkz for free doesn't alleviate the key problem, a lack of durability.
You contradict yourself in your assessment by saying that they are a HORDE army and your answer to their problems is to make them into an MSU army. Trukk boyz haven't been competitive in any real way for a long time. MSU boyz aren't good because again they have no durability so they get gunned down, fail leadership and either get swept in CC or lose D6 boyz to mob rule further reducing their CC ability.
When I run a couple squads of 30 Ork blobs (HORDE) they shouldn't be killed in a single turn unless they are getting focus fired by multiple units. A handful of Scat bikers shouldn't be able to destroy them.
Reducing price helps because that gives their loss of durability at least a breathing space, making them S4base allows them to not suck in CC after the 1st turn, Rage is ok, but it would be nice to have the ability to hurt higher Toughness models and AV11 vehicles with boyz, that would make them more playable as well. Finally though, I think Eavy armor should be cheaper, this will allow me to take it without feeling like I could have almost doubled the number of boyz for hte same price.
TRUKKZ ARE NEVER THE ANSWER, unless they are full of deff dredz, then MORE TRUKKZ!
SemperMortis wrote: Except nobody in their right mind charges a squad of Ork Boyz unless they already know they are going to win. IE the boyz are already down to a minimum or the attacker is TWC
So Counter-attack would be about as useful as Stickbomb chuckas on a trukk.
Actually, that's the best way to beat orks- deny their charge. If you charge orks, you deny them their +1 str and attack, and you get at minimum an extra attack for the charge. I hate being charged as orks, because I know I have a damn good chance of losing, even to a barebones maines squad. It's a funny secret that a lot of veteran players know about. Orks love to charge, but they hate being charged. That's why making them S4 all the time and giving them counter attack would be fantastic.
SemperMortis wrote:When I run a couple squads of 30 Ork blobs (HORDE) they shouldn't be killed in a single turn unless they are getting focus fired by multiple units. A handful of Scat bikers shouldn't be able to destroy them.
This isn't just an ork problem. Eldar and Tau are OP in general. The goal, in my view, should be to give orks equal footing to a space marine battle company (of the non OP variety), not to make them as OP as the most OP codices in the game. Those codices should be nerfed.
Reducing price helps because that gives their loss of durability at least a breathing space, making them S4base allows them to not suck in CC after the 1st turn, Rage is ok, but it would be nice to have the ability to hurt higher Toughness models and AV11 vehicles with boyz, that would make them more playable as well. Finally though, I think Eavy armor should be cheaper, this will allow me to take it without feeling like I could have almost doubled the number of boyz for hte same price.
Two points:
1. Giving them furious charge, while upgrading them to S4, would step on the toes of marines. Why should a boy have a chance to wound a wraithknight when my genetically altered super soldier demigod can't?
2. Again, there's still the matter of points costs. At the end of the day, a gaurdsman costs 5 ppm and is equipped with a lasgun, 5+ armor and a solid statline of 3s.
Yes, ork boys should be better. But they still only cost 6 ppm.
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Did you like my WHEEE! and I think I can; I think I can proposal for trukks?
SemperMortis wrote:When I run a couple squads of 30 Ork blobs (HORDE) they shouldn't be killed in a single turn unless they are getting focus fired by multiple units. A handful of Scat bikers shouldn't be able to destroy them.
This isn't just an ork problem. Eldar and Tau are OP in general. The goal, in my view, should be to give orks equal footing to a space marine battle company (of the non OP variety), not to make them as OP as the most OP codices in the game. Those codices should be nerfed.
Reducing price helps because that gives their loss of durability at least a breathing space, making them S4base allows them to not suck in CC after the 1st turn, Rage is ok, but it would be nice to have the ability to hurt higher Toughness models and AV11 vehicles with boyz, that would make them more playable as well. Finally though, I think Eavy armor should be cheaper, this will allow me to take it without feeling like I could have almost doubled the number of boyz for hte same price.
Two points:
1. Giving them furious charge, while upgrading them to S4, would step on the toes of marines. Why should a boy have a chance to wound a wraithknight when my genetically altered super soldier demigod can't?
2. Again, there's still the matter of points costs. At the end of the day, a gaurdsman costs 5 ppm and is equipped with a lasgun, 5+ armor and a solid statline of 3s.
Yes, ork boys should be better. But they still only cost 6 ppm.
Did you like my WHEEE! and I think I can; I think I can proposal for trukks?
No, anything to do with trukks I hate. I have played far to many games where my trukks just explode because my opponent looked at them funny.. Boyz durability is a problem. Trukks durability is a HUGE problem. Everything about this current edition and codex made Trukkz weaker.
you can now hit models inside trukkz with flamers
models now suffer S4 hits instead of S3
Trukkz lost Ramshackle rule and got a stupid 6+ instead.
No thank you, I would rather footslog 15boyz then take 10 in a trukk.
In the current meta - give all Orks (not gretchin) free FnP, which stacks with cybork and/or doks. Standard armour should be +5 save. Maybe revert to previous edition's Mob rules.
Ideally, I would prefer to see the current meta toned down - superheavies should be restricted to games at 3k points or higher, revamp power levels of armies, remove OP formations. Formations should give benefits and drawbacks, not free benefits with no drawbacks.
They suck and they need to suck individually because you can get a bunch of them for a relatively small number of points per model. That's the trade off. You're not playing marines, eldar or necrons.The answer isn't to make boys stronger. The answer is to let you bring more stuff so that, even if you sustain heavy losses, you still have the numbers to win.
Like the Russians.
I disagree. That is what the Imperial Guard and Tyranids are for. Orks should be more intimidating opponents, able to easily shrug off hits that would kill a man, and absolutely devastating if they manage to get in close combat. They should still be a horde army of course, and individual Ork boyz should be no threat to the likes of a Space Marine or Eldar Aspect Warrior, but the fluff definitely justifies them as being stronger than they are now.
Also, your comment about Russians is really offensive and ignorant. Please bother to educate yourself before you write things like that.
I think that ork boyz being 5 ppm is an absolute minimum.
Furthermore, I don't think it's at all unreasonable, as orks were 6 ppm in the last codex, but could take stikkbombs for 1 ppm.
Now, they get stikkbombs included (which are useless), but are still 6ppm.
If they gave me 5 ppm boyz with the option to take stikkbombs for 1ppm (which I'd continue to never take), and a free swap to shootas, it would be a start.
But apart from that......
I don't think it's boyz that are the problem (apart from slight overcosting). I think it's mob rule. Especially for small unit sizes (trukk boyz).
If boyz didn't have to kill each other in droves to pass a test they could have passed for free in the last codex, I think they would be a hell of a lot more effective.
As it is......I find boyz pretty lackluster, but they're something you really have to take.
Still, though. Large amount of trukks (4+) or big blobs with sufficient ranged support can still be effective.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Army-wide 6+ FNP would help (kind of), and would be fluffy (orks are supposed to be tough) but would kick ass if a painboy stacked with it, giving his squad 4+ FNP.
The next question is obvious: Have any of you lads had succes in a competitive environment with footsloggers? I haven't. If you have then go along and explain how it works out. If not there is no reason to pursue this line of "fix".
Also, your comment about Russians is really offensive and ignorant. Please bother to educate yourself before you write things like that.
He was probably referring to was Russian infantry battles in world war II, rather than modern-day Russian military tactics. That being said, comparing ork boyz to WWII Russian soldiers is insensitive, especially since this is an international forum.
I am curious, though. I'm neither Russian, nor a WWII history scholar, but is it inaccurate to say that in WWII, Russian infantry in battles like Stalingrad were treated by their superiors as, for want of a better term, expendable?
It has been portrayed that way in American popular culture (Movies/TV), so I'm honestly interested in the answer.
For what it's worth, I did try to educate myself a bit, and according to Wikipedia, soviet losses in Stalingrad were about 32% higher than axis ones, which is especially significant since they were also defending. That being said, I am curious to know a Russian's thoughts on the topic.
Free Trukks (if there are a lot of them) is actually a pretty good deal. Just make sure they are given free Rams and run them straight at the enemy, empty.
If they can get within an inch of enemy position they will need to either run away or risk getting caught in the explosion.
If some of them survive, tank shock with them.
If nothing else, they've diverted fire from the boyz.
If any formation gave me free trukks I would jump on it.
Kap'n Krump wrote:He was probably referring to was Russian infantry battles in world war II, rather than modern-day Russian military tactics.
Yes. Or, at the very least, how such battles are portrayed in American media.
My understanding is that it's something to the effect of: "Hey, you 10 guys? You're a squad. Here's a gun. He dies? One of you 9 pick it up and keep going! "
That being said, comparing ork boyz to WWII Russian soldiers is insensitive, especially since this is an international forum.
I meant no offense.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JimOnMars wrote: Free Trukks (if there are a lot of them) is actually a pretty good deal. Just make sure they are given free Rams and run them straight at the enemy, empty.
If they can get within an inch of enemy position they will need to either run away or risk getting caught in the explosion.
If some of them survive, tank shock with them.
If nothing else, they've diverted fire from the boyz.
If any formation gave me free trukks I would jump on it.
Vitali Advenil wrote: Stampede: In the shooting phase, any unit of boyz may run 2d6 rather than 1d6. However, on a roll of doubles, the unit deals 1d6 S4 AP- wounds to itself to simulate the disorganized orks trampling each other while trying to get to the fight. Wounds cannot be allocated to characters.
Maybe throw in some other penalties like they can only make snap shots in their next shooting phase.
I really really like this rule. My suggestion would be to port over the current Mob Rule table to the Stampede ability, where any result of doubles would count as a breakout of the Orks fighting among themselves: a failed Leadership check and the Orks go nowhere.
Then change the Mob Rule ability back to what it used to be, with even Fearless units of Orks still testing for their failed Stampede checks at a maximum of Leadership 10. I'd probably also give all Ork Boyz Hammer of Wrath for free, and have the Ork Horde Detachment bonus give them HoW at Str 5 if they charge over 10 inches.
I'd like to sum my (extended) ideas again, just in case they got lost in the thread.
Give all Orks Counter Attack, because its in their nature to blindly attack.
Change Mob Rule back to a bonus for taking bigger units. Here's my suggestion:
For every 10 models in a unit with the Mob Rule, the unit adds +1 to its Leadership. In addition, if a unit with the Mob Rule is within 6" of a friendly unit with the Mob Rule, it adds + 1 to its Leadership. If their Leadership raises above 10, the unit gains the Fearless special rule. I hope this isn't too complicated. This rewards you for spamming Orks.
Change Ramshackle to: when rolling to penetrate a vehicle with this special rule, roll 2 dice and discard the highest. Give this rule to Trukks, Buggies and Wartraks.
- Drop eavy armor to 3 ppm - Nobz are leadership 8 and have 4+ armor by default
- Mob Rule completely redone. [1-3] result dealing D6 hits to non characters, [4-5] auto pass, [6] gain zealot.
- Return the old Ramshackle on death causing [1-2] explodes [3-4] breaks apart [5-6] scatters in a direction for 12" then falls apart.
This would be a big step in the right direction for trukk boyz and fix a large amount of Ork's bad leadership issues (which plagues boyz a lot).
Vankraken wrote: - Drop eavy armor to 3 ppm - Nobz are leadership 8 and have 4+ armor by default
- Mob Rule completely redone. [1-3] result dealing D6 hits to non characters, [4-5] auto pass, [6] gain zealot.
- Return the old Ramshackle on death causing [1-2] explodes [3-4] breaks apart [5-6] scatters in a direction for 12" then falls apart.
This would be a big step in the right direction for trukk boyz and fix a large amount of Ork's bad leadership issues (which plagues boyz a lot).
even at 3ppm eavy armor is to expensive, and the reason for that is the absolute plethora of weapons in this game that ignore 4+ armor.
Mob rule I agree with except for zealot, the game designers would have a conniption fit if orks got a bonus from one of their random roll tables.
If all models in a unit have this special rule, roll a D6 when the unit fails a Morale check or Pinning test (after any rerolls). If the unit contains more than 15 models, add +1 to the result:
1: Cowardly Gitz: The unit fails the Morale check or Pinning test as normal.
2-3: Squabble: The unit suffers D6 Strength 4 AP - hits, and is then treated as having passed the Morale check or Pinning test. These hits are Randomly Allocated.
4-5: Breaking Heads: For every Ork character in the unit, it suffers 1 Strength 4 AP - hit, and is then treated as having passed the Morale check or Pinning test. These hits are Randomly Allocated. If there are no Ork Characters in the unit, they Squabble instead.
6: Born To Fight: If the unit is locked in combat, it is treated as having passed the Morale check or Pinning test. If the unit is not locked in combat, it immediately moves 2D6 inches towards the nearest enemy unit, but must stop if it comes to within 1" of an enemy unit.
Bosspoles: If a unit contains a model with a Bosspole, it adds +1 to the result of any Mob Rule tests.
With this system, there's only a small chance your boyz will actually run away or go to ground. And there's a small chance they might plough straight towards the enemy, all the better to assault them in their own turn. And Ork units above 15 models now become almost fearless (but at a small price).
I do think Ork units should be at risk of attacking themselves, due to their nature. They just shouldn't be too penalised for it.
If all models in a unit have this special rule, roll a D6 when the unit fails a Morale check or Pinning test (after any rerolls). If the unit contains more than 15 models, add +1 to the result:
1: Cowardly Gitz: The unit fails the Morale check or Pinning test as normal.
2-3: Squabble: The unit suffers D6 Strength 4 AP - hits, and is then treated as having passed the Morale check or Pinning test. These hits are Randomly Allocated.
4-5: Breaking Heads: For every Ork character in the unit, it suffers 1 Strength 4 AP - hit, and is then treated as having passed the Morale check or Pinning test. These hits are Randomly Allocated. If there are no Ork Characters in the unit, they Squabble instead.
6: Born To Fight: If the unit is locked in combat, it is treated as having passed the Morale check or Pinning test. If the unit is not locked in combat, it immediately moves 2D6 inches towards the nearest enemy unit, but must stop if it comes to within 1" of an enemy unit.
Bosspoles: If a unit contains a model with a Bosspole, it adds +1 to the result of any Mob Rule tests.
With this system, there's only a small chance your boyz will actually run away or go to ground. And there's a small chance they might plough straight towards the enemy, all the better to assault them in their own turn. And Ork units above 15 models now become almost fearless (but at a small price).
I do think Ork units should be at risk of attacking themselves, due to their nature. They just shouldn't be too penalised for it.
What do you think?
This is absolute garbage, I hate it and I wouldn't want to play with this rule. And yet it is still better then what GW did.
The old mob rule was 10+ models = fearless, anything less and you count that as your leadership, bosspoles allowed you to reroll failed leadership checks at the cost of the nob smacking a random ork in the head, IE 1 ONE!!!! Strength 4 hit AP- not D6.
Why, in an edition that is really bad for assault, and with a codex that is bottom tier at best, are you still trying to penalize the boyz with lots of D6 hits to boyz who have 6+ armor? This is just a stupid mechanic that some idiot at GW wrote down because he never played orks in his entire life and either really hates them or is an incompetent buffoon who shouldn't be allowed to write rules.
Sorry for my rage, but seriously Ork Boyz SUCK in this edition, its rare for me to be able to get them across the board into assault, let alone WIN the assault. Hell I had some boyz assault some Tau Broadsides, by the time they got to the unit the broadsides won the CC because the boyz didn't have enough bodies left to sustain the fight and the Nob whiffed badly.
Boyz need buffs right now, not more complex rules that force them into more D6 random wounds
I still think that mob rule should count wounds, not models (so it helps things like nobz), and should the total wounds involved in a combat.
So, 2 squads of trukk boyz charge the same unit, their 'mob rule' amount counts as 24, not two groups of 12.
If you did that, and made mob rule affect fear tests, and tone it down to D3 hits, it would still be kinda crappy, but workable. Current one is just awful.
That's a great idea actually. It would really help small units of nobz a lot. I could go with D3 hits for squabble as well.
That with free nobs for the squads, cheap heavy armour (flat 20pts for a squad?), counter attack, and hammer of wrath at +1 strength to match their furious charge, things might be going in the right direction.
What was wrong with a variation on the old Mob Rule?
An Ork mob with 12+ wounds left, automatically pass morale tests.
An Ork mob with under 12 wounds left MAY use the number of wounds they have left instead of their LD value.
Ork mobs of the same type, may mob up , (join together to make a bigga mob.)If they pass an unmodified LD test.
Grots do not benefit from Mob rule or mob up.(They are far to weedy and cowardly.)
Old mob rule. Shoota boys should cost the same, as its a side-grade at best. Big shootas are free.
I think ork boyz aren't too much of a problem, I think its the fact that things like scatterbikes took over and horde armies aren't worth it. Eldar should be getting the bike and weapon restriction, not ork boyz getting buffed.
Orks have other problems like KFF being gak and nobs being too expensive. Or Flashgits having short range AP useless guns.
I'm no genius at rules, but this is what I would like to see in my Boyz profile:
60 pts
9 Boyz (+20 at 6 pts per Boy)
Choppa+Slugga / Shoota (free)
"Eavy Armor (2 pts per Boy)
S4 T4 WS4 BS2 A2 I2 W1 Sv 5+
1 Nob
free 'Eavy Armor
Choppa+Slugga
Big Choppa (5 pts) S+2 AP4 Two-Handed
Power Klaw (20 pts)
Boss Pole (5 pts)
S4 T5 WS4 BS2 A2 I2 W2 sv 4+
May take Looted Wagon (WD version) as Dedicated Transport (30 pts)
May take Battlewagon (90 pts with Reinforced Ram, 1 Big Shoota and Armor Plates stock) as Dedicated Transport if unit totals 20 models
Rules:
Mob Rule (10+ Fearless)
'Ere we Go
Furious Charge
Counter Attack
Feel No Pain 6+
As for the Trukk, it could be made into an upgrade for a Warbuggy Squad with the option to load up some non-Troops Boyz with 6+ Sv and Shootas, Big Shootas, or Rokkits. Maybe?
Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote: I'm no genius at rules, but this is what I would like to see in my Boyz profile:
60 pts
9 Boyz (+20 at 6 pts per Boy)
Choppa+Slugga / Shoota (free)
"Eavy Armor (2 pts per Boy)
S4 T4 WS4 BS2 A2 I2 W1 Sv 5+
1 Nob
free 'Eavy Armor
Choppa+Slugga
Big Choppa (5 pts) S+2 AP4 Two-Handed
Power Klaw (20 pts)
Boss Pole (5 pts)
S4 T5 WS4 BS2 A2 I2 W2 sv 4+
May take Looted Wagon (WD version) as Dedicated Transport (30 pts)
May take Battlewagon (90 pts with Reinforced Ram, 1 Big Shoota and Armor Plates stock) as Dedicated Transport if unit totals 20 models
Rules:
Mob Rule (10+ Fearless)
'Ere we Go
Furious Charge
Counter Attack
Feel No Pain 6+
As for the Trukk, it could be made into an upgrade for a Warbuggy Squad with the option to load up some non-Troops Boyz with 6+ Sv and Shootas, Big Shootas, or Rokkits. Maybe?
Seems a bit much honestly. Nobz should be their current profile except have 4+ armor by default and leadership 8. There could be an upgrade for Nob squads called something like "meaner and greener" or something that gives +1 toughness if they aren't on bikes but regular squad nobz should still be T4. Nobz have 3 attacks base.
I would love to see Big Choppas become amazing (considering Wulfen gets a 2 handed +3 str AP2 melee weapon that can swing at initiative on the charge for less than 10 points then why must Big Choppas be such gak). Not sure what to give them but melee weapons across the entire 40k rule set are overpriced except for things like the previously mentioned Wulfen. Extra hits, wounds, or rending on 6s sounds like something a big choppa would do. Lets make Big Choppas great again!
Orks shouldn't have Counter Attack. Generally Orks are too disorganized to mount a proper defense to properly counter attack. Might be a good rule for Blood Axes (who value tactics and umie like organization) or Goffs (who are always ready to get stuck in). Furious charge with S4 base seems a bit much on boyz. Maybe have the WAAAAGH allow Orks to gain the benefit from Furious Charge and the extra charge attack even when locked into combat, charged, or making multi charges. This would sorta do the same thing but also tie it into the WAAAGH mechanic which is the iconic Ork ability.
What if all Orks had Hammer Of Wraith, and Here We Go is changed to:
Models can reroll one dice when charging and add +1 to the strength of hammer of wraith attacks.
So when an Ork boy unit charges, the enemy unit would have to withstand a barrage of strength 4 (5 for the nob) attacks before they strike. Then the orks will hit them with a ton of strength 4 attacks due to furious charge. With big enough units that should do some damage.
And after I had along think about it, increase boys armour to 5+. If catachans can claim a flak armour save then so can orks. For choppas and big choppas, give them this stat:
Choppa: Range: Melee Strength: User AP: 5
Big Choppa: Range: Melee Strength: User +2 AP: 4
So when compared to shoota boyz, they will much better in assault, and will straight up butcher guardsmen, guardians, gaunts and other orks. Meanwhile, big choppas will butcher marine scouts, fire warriors, elite guardsmen etc. Might be worth it in the end.
Just half the point cost for boyz and powerklaws. Simple and effective.
It would perfectly fit the role GW has chosen for orks. And it would make footslogging boyz units suddenly not that bad at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This would make a boy squad of 30 + nob wth powerclaw ~118 points. This seems about right and I would gladly play a few of those units.
Vankraken wrote:
Seems a bit much honestly. Nobz should be their current profile except have 4+ armor by default and leadership 8. There could be an upgrade for Nob squads called something like "meaner and greener" or something that gives +1 toughness if they aren't on bikes but regular squad nobz should still be T4. Nobz have 3 attacks base.
I would love to see Big Choppas become amazing (considering Wulfen gets a 2 handed +3 str AP2 melee weapon that can swing at initiative on the charge for less than 10 points then why must Big Choppas be such gak). Not sure what to give them but melee weapons across the entire 40k rule set are overpriced except for things like the previously mentioned Wulfen. Extra hits, wounds, or rending on 6s sounds like something a big choppa would do. Lets make Big Choppas great again!
Orks shouldn't have Counter Attack. Generally Orks are too disorganized to mount a proper defense to properly counter attack. Might be a good rule for Blood Axes (who value tactics and umie like organization) or Goffs (who are always ready to get stuck in). Furious charge with S4 base seems a bit much on boyz. Maybe have the WAAAAGH allow Orks to gain the benefit from Furious Charge and the extra charge attack even when locked into combat, charged, or making multi charges. This would sorta do the same thing but also tie it into the WAAAGH mechanic which is the iconic Ork ability.
Ah, my mistake. It is 3 attacks for the Nob. I do like the Counter Attack for Blood Axes (not that I'm biased or anything ). I'm more than a little upset at the current setup for the Big Choppa. I mean come on! If it's big enough that a larger than average Ork has to use two hands to swing it, shouldn't it actually cut something? I own Regicide (a 40k chess game) and the Ork king (a Warboss naturally) uses a Big Choppa and routinely eviscerates and bursts the helmeted heads of Space Marines. The "Meaner n' Greener" rule sounds very good. I think Nobs should have 1 higher Toughness than Boyz because they're bigger and, well...tougher, even if it costs a few extra points. I love the WAAAGH! granting Furious Charge because that's exactly what it is: a furious charge!
I've also been thinking about giving Boyz squads "Grit yer Teef" that gives them +1 to FNP (so a Painboy makes it 5+) and/or Stubborn. This, and a much revised Mob Rule table, would replace their Fearless at 11+ models.
Mob Rule, if under no circumstances it cannot do Fearless (because we can't have armies that don't actually fear the Emprah's "genetically augmented demigods of war." I hate Imperial propaganda), should at least be fun and not dreaded. If the player if afraid to take his basic Troops because they'll implode, how is the army even supposed to get off the ground?
I've been putting together a compilation of home-made rulez to use in my own games because I've decided players know most and GW knows bupkis about writing rules anymore (if they ever did) so I'm probably going to steal more than a few ideas from here!
Orks shouldn't have Counter Attack. Generally Orks are too disorganized to mount a proper defense to properly counter attack. Might be a good rule for Blood Axes (who value tactics and umie like organization) or Goffs (who are always ready to get stuck in). Furious charge with S4 base seems a bit much on boyz. Maybe have the WAAAAGH allow Orks to gain the benefit from Furious Charge and the extra charge attack even when locked into combat, charged, or making multi charges. This would sorta do the same thing but also tie it into the WAAAGH mechanic which is the iconic Ork ability.
Orks SHOULD have counter attack. What is counter attack? It is being charged by an enemy and instead of being scared or preparing a defense you run up and slap the guy in the face with your choppa...That sounds Orky to me.
Choppa: Range: Melee Strength: User AP: 5
Big Choppa: Range: Melee Strength: User +2 AP: 4
So when compared to shoota boyz, they will much better in assault, and will straight up butcher guardsmen, guardians, gaunts and other orks. Meanwhile, big choppas will butcher marine scouts, fire warriors, elite guardsmen etc. Might be worth it in the end.
See what you just did there? You don't want to make the Orks to good so you give them a handful of gifts that aren't good but will help with "Some" armies. Here is the problem with that, the only armies that routinely use 5+ and 6+ armor are the GARBAGE armies that Orks don't need help beating. Tyranids, Orks, Imperial Guard are easy to kill with orks. It is the higher level Nonsense that orks have a problem with.
one of the biggest problems in 40k is the gradual ruination of anything not super elite, snow flakey. By that I mean, every weapon getting to the point where it will ignore Ork, Imperial Guard, Tyranid and Dark Elf (sorry Eldar) armor saves. "Ohh we don't want Scatter lasers to be over the fething top stupid OP, instead of giving them AP3 or 4 lets just give them AP6, that way to doesn't sound as bad, unless your an Ork player who only has a fething 6+ armor save". Every time they pass out new and improved weapons and rules they always give them a freebie that makes it easier to kill the weaker armies in the game. FFS Space Marines standard weapon defeats 1/3 of the games armor. AP should be a rarity not something given out for fun to every weapon in the game.
This thread cracks me up. Eldar get cheap D weapons like candy, SMs get double digit warp dice, Tyranids get half a dozen FMCs, Tau can ignore whatever save they like but god forbid Orks get some of the perks they had as recently as the last codex when they were still a joke, that would just be game breaking!
Future War Cultist wrote: You must have missed my point about +1 Strength Hammer Of Wraith Attacks for all orks and giving them flak armor too.
Glad you changed your mind about Counter Attack though.
No we didnt. But HoW is a joke rule to give us. Half the times in my games I get into close combat with only about 6 guys. The rest trail on backwards. Adding +1 S won't help those 6 attacks very much. Now if mobs were given their own version of HoW that allowed every model to make the attack regardless of making base to base and +1 S, it would go a long way.
mhalko1 wrote: Now if mobs were given their own version of HoW that allowed every model to make the attack regardless of making base to base and +1 S, it would go a long way.
What if the Strength bonus were based on the number of models in the mob? i.e- 10 or more is +1, 15 or more is +2 and 20 or more is +3? Space Marines doing a poor job of thinning a mob before it hits could end up getting a helping of Strength 6 hits against them before any blows are even struck, and a mob could actually threaten weak armour facings on vehicles if they hit with enough force (I'd picture it like them rocking the vehicle onto its roof rioting mob style).
We may be making this more complicated than it needs to be. We don't need to make them overly-complicated with HoW shenanigans. Orks are meant to be very points efficient: cheap-as-chips T4 models. Make Shootas free, 'Eavy Armor 2 points per Ork Boy, and let them take Burnas for 10 points and Looted Wagons as Dedicated Transports. "Eavy Armor would stay at 4 for Nobz and higher-stat models, because it takes more material to cover a larger Ork. Tougher Boyz, tougher transports. Easy fix. Orks aren't weak, they're just too expensive for what they do.
Also, squads for Deff Dreads and Jets/Bombas would be fantastic. We get to field more stuff and GW sells more models. Everybody wins. But that's not for this thread.
Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote: We may be making this more complicated than it needs to be. We don't need to make them overly-complicated with HoW shenanigans. Orks are meant to be very points efficient: cheap-as-chips T4 models. Make Shootas free, 'Eavy Armor 2 points per Ork Boy, and let them take Burnas for 10 points and Looted Wagons as Dedicated Transports. "Eavy Armor would stay at 4 for Nobz and higher-stat models, because it takes more material to cover a larger Ork. Tougher Boyz, tougher transports. Easy fix. Orks aren't weak, they're just too expensive for what they do.
.
Totally agree there with you. We don't need no semi useless buffs that will make them more killy if they don't get shot before they reach combat. Nor do we need to make them any faster to be there. We just need them to be priced correctly.
Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote: We may be making this more complicated than it needs to be. We don't need to make them overly-complicated with HoW shenanigans. Orks are meant to be very points efficient: cheap-as-chips T4 models. Make Shootas free, 'Eavy Armor 2 points per Ork Boy, and let them take Burnas for 10 points and Looted Wagons as Dedicated Transports. "Eavy Armor would stay at 4 for Nobz and higher-stat models, because it takes more material to cover a larger Ork. Tougher Boyz, tougher transports. Easy fix. Orks aren't weak, they're just too expensive for what they do.
I'm good with that, although I would really like it if Ork Boyz don't suffer from disordered charges because their charges are always disordered...No loss of attack bonus or furious charge.
Can't help but think this thread is getting rather messy. The problem should be simple to solve, really.
The biggest problem with Boyz is that they struggle for relevance, and haven't scaled along with the other basic troops in the game.
Stat changes, I think, are unhelpful. The most compelling suggestions I've seen are the '+1S' and 'army-wide 6+ FnP' ones, but I think these could easily be accomplished by just modifying the 'Ere we go' and 'Waaagh' rules.
'Ere we go: Units comprised entirely of models with this special rule may always roll an additional D6 when determining Run and Charge moves. In addition, units that include more than 20 models with this rule benefit from a 6+ Feel No Pain save.
WAAAGH!: When it charges into combat, a unit comprised entirely of models with this special rule count as having the Hammer of Wrath special rule. In addition, units that include more than 20 models with this rule inflict their HoW hits at +1 Strength.
The other change I might suggest is that Choppas be given their own profile again. I've often argued that Chainswords and Mono-edged blades should be Ap5, and I'd be inclined to include Choppas in that.
It must be said, though, that the biggest barrier to the success of Boyz is laziness. Five of the six Ork players I know just can't be bothered to paint that many basic models. It's a shame that such a thing should matter, but them's the breaks. Perhaps selling Boyz in bigger, cheaper, snap-fit sets as standard is a partial solution, as they do get jolly expensive.
It must be said, though, that the biggest barrier to the success of Boyz is laziness. Five of the six Ork players I know just can't be bothered to paint that many basic models. It's a shame that such a thing should matter, but them's the breaks. Perhaps selling Boyz in bigger, cheaper, snap-fit sets as standard is a partial solution, as they do get jolly expensive.
I have 300+ painted boyz.I can assure you that just running them n b;obz no longer is successfully.
It must be said, though, that the biggest barrier to the success of Boyz is laziness. Five of the six Ork players I know just can't be bothered to paint that many basic models. It's a shame that such a thing should matter, but them's the breaks. Perhaps selling Boyz in bigger, cheaper, snap-fit sets as standard is a partial solution, as they do get jolly expensive.
I have 300+ painted boyz.I can assure you that just running them n b;obz no longer is successfully.
Yeah. Since 4th Edition the average weapon on the 40k battlefield has gained strength, gained shots and gained Ignores Cover - but Boyz have remained the same. THAT is what's so harsh these days.
Yeah. I used to run blobs of 30 boyz, and they're so damn slow that they just get whittled down before they can get anywhere. I still bring a lot of boyz to the table though, around 70 or so, but that number is becoming smaller and smaller as I gain more options.
Spineyguy wrote: Can't help but think this thread is getting rather messy. The problem should be simple to solve, really.
The biggest problem with Boyz is that they struggle for relevance, and haven't scaled along with the other basic troops in the game.
Stat changes, I think, are unhelpful. The most compelling suggestions I've seen are the '+1S' and 'army-wide 6+ FnP' ones, but I think these could easily be accomplished by just modifying the 'Ere we go' and 'Waaagh' rules.
'Ere we go: Units comprised entirely of models with this special rule may always roll an additional D6 when determining Run and Charge moves. In addition, units that include more than 20 models with this rule benefit from a 6+ Feel No Pain save.
WAAAGH!: When it charges into combat, a unit comprised entirely of models with this special rule count as having the Hammer of Wrath special rule. In addition, units that include more than 20 models with this rule inflict their HoW hits at +1 Strength.
The other change I might suggest is that Choppas be given their own profile again. I've often argued that Chainswords and Mono-edged blades should be Ap5, and I'd be inclined to include Choppas in that.
It must be said, though, that the biggest barrier to the success of Boyz is laziness. Five of the six Ork players I know just can't be bothered to paint that many basic models. It's a shame that such a thing should matter, but them's the breaks. Perhaps selling Boyz in bigger, cheaper, snap-fit sets as standard is a partial solution, as they do get jolly expensive.
The problem with all those "buffs" and I hate to use that word, is that smaller scale units don't benefit at all, so trukk boyz (the most common type of boy atm) remain garbage. Furthermore, +1 strength for HoW doesn't help anything, realistically how many models can you get in base to base with an enemy unit? usually 1-6, with 6+ being rather hard to get, So those S4 AP - don't really help to much. And 6+ FNP doesn't do anything at all. Thats basically giving boyz back their 6+ armor save, because it used to be weapons with AP were rare, now its handed out like candy.
And AP5 Choppas doesn't help boyz with the units we currently have problems with, it just makes it easier to beat up the crappy armies in the game (Orks, IG, Nids, hell even Chaos (cultists)) more then we already do.
Orks need a REAL buff not something half arsed that is only good in certain situations (IE 20+ Blobs) because realistically if im foot slogging 30 boyz I expect to lose 15 per squad before they even get close to the enemy. There goes my buffs
So I had a game yesterday where a 30 man squad of boys charged a blood thirster with 2 wounds left. It was the D thirster. He held that unit up for 5 turns. Mainly because HoW couldn't hurt him due to some war gear he had that made all attacks -1 S. And after the first turn not 1 ork boy could hurt T 6 due to -1S. Now I killed it Turn 5 ( my brother being my opponent knows the ork struggle and saw how I was starting to get tabled refused to issue a challenge) that S7 power klaw finally got the final wound removed. Boys are gak and don't mean anything in this game.
I would have liked to think that they could deal 2 wounds but no. Everything has rerollable saves nowadays. Whether it's armor, invuln, jink. Orks can't do enough wounds when they can be rerolled.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest Rending for both little and big choppas. Everyone is afraid of Rending. Rending damages the front of Dreadnaughts and kills MCs dead. With Rending Orks could literally chop anything to death, and getting into an assault with them will be a bad idea.
If the unit has a painboy they add +1 to fnp rolls.
Any model with cybork adds +1 to xml rolls.
A painboy can remove a grot orderly to allow the unit to reroll fnp rolls against a wound pool but must reroll all the dice and accept the new results.
Alternatively, or also make ork unit costs non linear.
Ie 10 orks is 60pts, each additional ork is 4 pts.
mhalko1 wrote: Everything has rerollable saves nowadays. Whether it's armor, invuln, jink. Orks can't do enough wounds when they can be rerolled.
Is it just me or does anyone else think jink should be removed? I thought the benefit of being a jetbike/skimmer was that you moved faster/better, not somehow more resilient to bullets. The tactic for Eldar in the earlier editions was to not get caught out in the open like an idiot.
EDIT: has anyone tried playing 7th edition without jink?
mhalko1 wrote: Everything has rerollable saves nowadays. Whether it's armor, invuln, jink. Orks can't do enough wounds when they can be rerolled.
Is it just me or does anyone else think jink should be removed? I thought the benefit of being a jetbike/skimmer was that you moved faster/better, not somehow more resilient to bullets.
That is not what Jink does. Jink is supposed to be your fast movement means people miss you. The fact that the rules are....poor at showing that means jink needs fixing not removing.
mhalko1 wrote: Everything has rerollable saves nowadays. Whether it's armor, invuln, jink. Orks can't do enough wounds when they can be rerolled.
Is it just me or does anyone else think jink should be removed? I thought the benefit of being a jetbike/skimmer was that you moved faster/better, not somehow more resilient to bullets.
That is not what Jink does. Jink is supposed to be your fast movement means people miss you. The fact that the rules are....poor at showing that means jink needs fixing not removing.
So then a to-hit modifier would make more sense.....if 40k did hit modifiers.
mhalko1 wrote: Everything has rerollable saves nowadays. Whether it's armor, invuln, jink. Orks can't do enough wounds when they can be rerolled.
Is it just me or does anyone else think jink should be removed? I thought the benefit of being a jetbike/skimmer was that you moved faster/better, not somehow more resilient to bullets.
That is not what Jink does. Jink is supposed to be your fast movement means people miss you. The fact that the rules are....poor at showing that means jink needs fixing not removing.
So then a to-hit modifier would make more sense.....if 40k did hit modifiers.
If to hit modifiers weren't a pain the backside.....
It made more sense before when the save changed depending on how fast you went.
My suggestion for how to improve green tide style lists would be to have painboys available as a unit upgrade.
my current get around for this is to run mogrok's boss boys for my 'HQs' and then have painboys on the horde detachment its just about doable at 1250pts giving me 90 boys with FNP.
this makes them a massive amount more resilient in my experience and means i usually get around 20 from each blob into combat
Jdregius wrote: My suggestion for how to improve green tide style lists would be to have painboys available as a unit upgrade.
my current get around for this is to run mogrok's boss boys for my 'HQs' and then have painboys on the horde detachment its just about doable at 1250pts giving me 90 boys with FNP.
this makes them a massive amount more resilient in my experience and means i usually get around 20 from each blob into combat
Thats not a bad suggestion, but its hopelessly expensive and hard to do for MSU style lists. My goal is to try and bring Boyz back as a relevant unit, regardless of size.
Thats not a bad suggestion, but its hopelessly expensive and hard to do for MSU style lists. My goal is to try and bring Boyz back as a relevant unit, regardless of size.
the thing is we have the tools to make them effective at the other sizes,
sub 12 you run trukks and make use of them as cover, distractions and tank shocks,
12 - 20 you run them in battlewagons, we have a formation that allows us to take 5 of them!
20 plus is where they come unstuck to me unless you can cram in enough painboys or KFF meks
the thing is is that boys are not an island no unit is, run a full list of tactical squads you wont get too far in a competetive game, you need to use all the tools available to make any list work.
Lootas will pull fire away from boys, as will deffkoptas warbuggies Kans and grot tanks.
use any of these make them seem important and dangerous people will throw enough at them to give boys a chance
While I'm still fairly new to 40k (only started playing right near the end of 6th edition), if we are talking on just how to make Boyz better, some of my ideas would be:
- A special rule that allows them to run a fixed extra distance. Someone earlier suggested 2D6 with doubles causing some wounds, but I feel that would obliterate the purpose of trucks, making them 100% useless. So, instead, allow them to run a bit faster for when you run big blobs.
- Retool the Mob Rule rule so leadership isn't virtually non-existent.
- Make shoota a free upgrade. Not much of a change, but they are merely OK at best and with how fast Boyz die, and how close you need to be in order to use them...they are often wasted points EVERY time they are taken.
- Make 'Eavy Armor cheaper.
- Make the Boyz Nob upgrades a little less expensive. Especialy Power Klaws. It's a great weapon, but it's not worth the same price on a Nob as it is on a Warboss. Even making it 20 points as opposed to 25 would help in the long run.
- Increase the amount of special weapons Boyz can use. Only 1 per 10 feels quite unorky overall, and only getting three feels like a big waste considering our crappy BS. Even upping it to 2 specials per 10 would be a lot better IMO.
I know some of these have been suggested, and not all should be applied. Just some of the ones that come to mind right away.
I'd also love it if Grots weren't total buns. I'm still sore we never got a Grot sniper crew of some kind to let us make even more use of that rare BS3.
Kavish wrote: That new ork-curion is actually pretty good. It gives you turn one charges and fearless. You just can't use it at less than 1850.
The Orkuion with just the required slots (barring auxiliaries) costs something stupid like 1100 points or more I can't remember. And that is without upgrades. On top of that your only getting some mildly OK units and at the end of the day the biggest threat is coming from S3 boyz,
Kavish wrote: That new ork-curion is actually pretty good. It gives you turn one charges and fearless. You just can't use it at less than 1850.
The Orkuion with just the required slots (barring auxiliaries) costs something stupid like 1100 points or more I can't remember. And that is without upgrades. On top of that your only getting some mildly OK units and at the end of the day the biggest threat is coming from S3 boyz,
The 6 units of 10 fearless boys blobs are not the biggest threat in the Orkorion it's ghazskulls mini deathstar with its multiple warlord powerklaws blob. The problem is as you said the 6 units of boyz even with str4 on charge and hammer of wraith don't do much especially when they are not objective secured. Orks need some point cost reductions across the board to make the Orkorion and most ork units viable. Right now the only competitve units we have are warbikers and various warbosses, a few specialized units like Mek guns and tankbustas being ok with lootas being good but still costly.
Kavish wrote: That new ork-curion is actually pretty good. It gives you turn one charges and fearless. You just can't use it at less than 1850.
The Orkuion with just the required slots (barring auxiliaries) costs something stupid like 1100 points or more I can't remember. And that is without upgrades. On top of that your only getting some mildly OK units and at the end of the day the biggest threat is coming from S3 boyz,
The 6 units of 10 fearless boys blobs are not the biggest threat in the Orkorion it's ghazskulls mini deathstar with its multiple warlord powerklaws blob. The problem is as you said the 6 units of boyz even with str4 on charge and hammer of wraith don't do much especially when they are not objective secured. Orks need some point cost reductions across the board to make the Orkorion and most ork units viable. Right now the only competitve units we have are warbikers and various warbosses, a few specialized units like Mek guns and tankbustas being ok with lootas being good but still costly.
A warboss in mega armor = 100pts
A Warboss in Eavy Armor with a PK = 89pts......
Mek Gunz are about the only thing in the entire codex that is priced correctly. And even then they could use a buff of some sort, because realistically when do you see Mek gunz not used as KMKs or Traktor Kannons?
Tankbustas are meh at best, they shine in our codex because we have feth all else that is decent. And Lootas? They would be worth it if they shot D3+1 shots and were able to either increase the strength or rate of fire of their weapons. That teamed with not dying when someone sneezes at them.
I saw a battle report where the ork-curion was used against a white scars battle company. Lost by a small margin and nearly tabled the space marines. Fearless orks are nothing to sniff at. Yes I agree, the codex needs a real update.
Kavish wrote: I saw a battle report where the ork-curion was used against a white scars battle company. Lost by a small margin and nearly tabled the space marines. Fearless orks are nothing to sniff at. Yes I agree, the codex needs a real update.
No offense to the white scar player but he must have failed miserably on a lot of important saves. At no point should a white scars player be caught with his pants down by an Orkurion. Hell you can nerf it to a normal list simply by killing Ghaz, or make him irrelevant by killing his transport (probably a BW, but still doable) Then watch as his "Death Star" has to walk around the board 6-12 inches at a time.
One does not simply kill Ghazghkull. 2++ T5 eternal warrior you know. Yea the white Scars player deployed aggressively. That's a mistake. Against all trucks and battlewagons in an ork-curion you should line up along your table edge to avoid that turn one charge.
Kavish wrote: One does not simply kill Ghazghkull. 2++ T5 eternal warrior you know. Yea the white Scars player deployed aggressively. That's a mistake. Against all trucks and battlewagons in an ork-curion you should line up along your table edge to avoid that turn one charge.
And after the initial rush you blow up the trukks because they are easy to destroy and then you can pick off the boyz at will because they will never be able to catch you. And if they come close then just assault them because on bikes you shouldn't worry about boyz (S3 vs T5 = Wounding on 6s)
Orkurion is a joke at best and an insult at worst. GW got tired of the massive number of hate e-mails they were receiving every day in regards to GW screwing the Orks for the entirety of 7th edition so they published a "New and improved" Ork supplement that is just the same garbage with a bit more garbage thrown in to make it look less like garbage.
Here's hoping that 8th edition orks get some kind of buffs. maybe make boyz have 20 base attacks that might be enough to help them out
Just for fun, I've been putting together my own Ork codex with ideas I've liked from around Dakka and other sites. Here's a sample: the section on Boyz, plus my own version of some of the rules so the stat changes make sense.
Troops
Ork Boyz 60 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv6+
Infantry
10 Ork Boyz
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
Rules:
-'Ere We Go!
-Mob Rule
Options:
-May include up to 20 addition Boyz...6 pts each
-The entire mob may replace their Sluggas with Shootas...free
-The entire mob may take 'Eavy Armor...2 pts per model
-For every 6 models in the unit, one model may replace their ranged weapon with:
Big Shoota...5 pts
Rokkit Launcha...5 pts
Burna...10 pts
-One model may be upgraded to:
Boss Nob...10 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W2 I3 A3 Ld8 Sv4+
Infantry (Character)
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
-'Eavy Armor
Rules:
-'Ere We Go
-Mob Rule
Options:
-Boss Nob may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and Orky-Know-wots lists (may not take awarbike).
-Unit may select a Trukk or Looted Wagon as a Dedicated Transport.
(Since my version of Nobz come stock with 'Eavy Armor, you don't pay 2 pts for the Boy'z armor and then upgrade, but rather the Nob upgrade comes first.)
Trukk 25 pts
BS2 AV10/10/10 HP3
Vehicle (Fast, Open-topped, Transport)
1 Trukk
Wargear
-Big Shoota
Rules
-Jink
-Dakka Dakka WAAAGH!
Fire an additional shot when a WAAAGH! is called.
-Ramshackle
Vehicles with the Ramshackle rule only Explode at S3 AP-. Furthermore, if the vehicle suffers an Explode results, roll a D6.
1-2 the vehicle Explodes normally
3-4, the vehicle only suffers a Wrecked result instead.
5-6, the vehicle moves D6+6" (If possible. If the vehicle encounters Impassable Terrain or another vehicle that is not a flyer, it can go no farther) straight forward in the direction is was facing. It then Explodes.
-Hotrod
A model with this rule may elect to add D3" to Combat Speed, Cruising Speed, and moving Flat Out.
Transport:
-Transport Capacity: 15 models.
Options:
-May replace Big Shoota with
Rokkit Launcha...free
Twin-linked Dakkagun...5 pts
Deffgun...10 pts
-May take items from the Ork Vehicle Equipment list.
-'Ere We Go!
If every model in a unit has this special rule, the unit can make Run moves of D3+3" and can re-roll a single dice when determining its charge range.
-Mob Rule
If Every model in a unit has this special rule, and the unit fails a Morale check or Pinning test (after any re-rolls they may have), roll immediately on the following table:
1: If the unit is locked in combat or within shooting range with ranged weapons, it is treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. Otherwise it fails normally.
2-4: If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D3 Strength 4 AP- hits and passes the Morale check or Pinning test. If there are no Characters in the unit, it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits instead, but still passes. Saves against these hits are allowed.
5-6: If the unit has 10 or more models, it gains Fearless until the end of the Ork Player's next turn. Otherwise it fails normally.
Add +1 to the results on this table for every five models in this unit after ten.
WAAAGH! grants Furious Charge and Counter Attack in addition to its normal effects.
Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote: Just for fun, I've been putting together my own Ork codex with ideas I've liked from around Dakka and other sites. Here's a sample: the section on Boyz, plus my own version of some of the rules so the stat changes make sense.
Troops
Ork Boyz 60 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv6+
Infantry
10 Ork Boyz
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
Rules:
-'Ere We Go!
-Mob Rule
Options:
-May include up to 20 addition Boyz...6 pts each
-The entire mob may replace their Sluggas with Shootas...free
-The entire mob may take 'Eavy Armor...2 pts per model
-For every 6 models in the unit, one model may replace their ranged weapon with:
Big Shoota...5 pts
Rokkit Launcha...5 pts
Burna...10 pts
-One model may be upgraded to:
Boss Nob...10 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W2 I3 A3 Ld8 Sv4+
Infantry (Character)
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
-'Eavy Armor
Rules:
-'Ere We Go
-Mob Rule
Options:
-Boss Nob may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and Orky-Know-wots lists (may not take awarbike).
-Unit may select a Trukk or Looted Wagon as a Dedicated Transport.
(Since my version of Nobz come stock with 'Eavy Armor, you don't pay 2 pts for the Boy'z armor and then upgrade, but rather the Nob upgrade comes first.)
Trukk 25 pts
BS2 AV10/10/10 HP3
Vehicle (Fast, Open-topped, Transport)
1 Trukk
Wargear
-Big Shoota
Rules
-Jink
-Dakka Dakka WAAAGH!
Fire an additional shot when a WAAAGH! is called.
-Ramshackle
Vehicles with the Ramshackle rule only Explode at S3 AP-. Furthermore, if the vehicle suffers an Explode results, roll a D6.
1-2 the vehicle Explodes normally
3-4, the vehicle only suffers a Wrecked result instead.
5-6, the vehicle moves D6+6" (If possible. If the vehicle encounters Impassable Terrain or another vehicle that is not a flyer, it can go no farther) straight forward in the direction is was facing. It then Explodes.
-Hotrod
A model with this rule may elect to add D3" to Combat Speed, Cruising Speed, and moving Flat Out.
Transport:
-Transport Capacity: 15 models.
Options:
-May replace Big Shoota with
Rokkit Launcha...free
Twin-linked Dakkagun...5 pts
Deffgun...10 pts
-May take items from the Ork Vehicle Equipment list.
-'Ere We Go!
If every model in a unit has this special rule, the unit can make Run moves of D3+3" and can re-roll a single dice when determining its charge range.
-Mob Rule
If Every model in a unit has this special rule, and the unit fails a Morale check or Pinning test (after any re-rolls they may have), roll immediately on the following table:
1: If the unit is locked in combat or within shooting range with ranged weapons, it is treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. Otherwise it fails normally.
2-4: If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D3 Strength 4 AP- hits and passes the Morale check or Pinning test. If there are no Characters in the unit, it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits instead, but still passes. Saves against these hits are allowed.
5-6: If the unit has 10 or more models, it gains Fearless until the end of the Ork Player's next turn. Otherwise it fails normally.
Add +1 to the results on this table for every five models in this unit after ten.
WAAAGH! grants Furious Charge and Counter Attack in addition to its normal effects.
For the most part this is simply giving the orks back what they had back in 6th edition. Specifically the S3 explosions would be probably one of the best buffs for orks...which is kind of pathetic.
A lot of good ideas here. I especially like the "no disordered charge" rule.
One thing that drives me crazy is when I get a big blob squad into melee, they win in one round, and are rewarded by becoming sitting ducks for rapid fire and flamers. How about this to help with that issue:
Whenever Orks can make a consolidate move, they can choose to charge instead. The enemy can fire overwatch as normal, and if the Orks make the charge, they are locked in combat, but neither side gets to swing until the next assault phase and the orks do not get any bonuses for charging.
It used to be...and it was bananas. Remember, if we win but don't sweep, the retreating unit (if it doesn't leave the board) will still have to snap fire, and they can't use flamers. Other units can, but it is up to the orkies to make sure the other units are otherwise occupied, i.e. still in combat.
If you 're counting on a single ork unit to chain-assault and win the game, you're not playing orks as intended...IMHO.
Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote: Just for fun, I've been putting together my own Ork codex with ideas I've liked from around Dakka and other sites. Here's a sample: the section on Boyz, plus my own version of some of the rules so the stat changes make sense.
Troops
Ork Boyz 60 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv6+
Infantry
10 Ork Boyz
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
Rules:
-'Ere We Go!
-Mob Rule
Options:
-May include up to 20 addition Boyz...6 pts each
-The entire mob may replace their Sluggas with Shootas...free
-The entire mob may take 'Eavy Armor...2 pts per model
-For every 6 models in the unit, one model may replace their ranged weapon with:
Big Shoota...5 pts
Rokkit Launcha...5 pts
Burna...10 pts
-One model may be upgraded to:
Boss Nob...10 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W2 I3 A3 Ld8 Sv4+
Infantry (Character)
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
-'Eavy Armor
Rules:
-'Ere We Go
-Mob Rule
Options:
-Boss Nob may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and Orky-Know-wots lists (may not take awarbike).
-Unit may select a Trukk or Looted Wagon as a Dedicated Transport.
(Since my version of Nobz come stock with 'Eavy Armor, you don't pay 2 pts for the Boy'z armor and then upgrade, but rather the Nob upgrade comes first.)
Trukk 25 pts
BS2 AV10/10/10 HP3
Vehicle (Fast, Open-topped, Transport)
1 Trukk
Wargear
-Big Shoota
Rules
-Jink
-Dakka Dakka WAAAGH!
Fire an additional shot when a WAAAGH! is called.
-Ramshackle
Vehicles with the Ramshackle rule only Explode at S3 AP-. Furthermore, if the vehicle suffers an Explode results, roll a D6.
1-2 the vehicle Explodes normally
3-4, the vehicle only suffers a Wrecked result instead.
5-6, the vehicle moves D6+6" (If possible. If the vehicle encounters Impassable Terrain or another vehicle that is not a flyer, it can go no farther) straight forward in the direction is was facing. It then Explodes.
-Hotrod
A model with this rule may elect to add D3" to Combat Speed, Cruising Speed, and moving Flat Out.
Transport:
-Transport Capacity: 15 models.
Options:
-May replace Big Shoota with
Rokkit Launcha...free
Twin-linked Dakkagun...5 pts
Deffgun...10 pts
-May take items from the Ork Vehicle Equipment list.
-'Ere We Go!
If every model in a unit has this special rule, the unit can make Run moves of D3+3" and can re-roll a single dice when determining its charge range.
-Mob Rule
If Every model in a unit has this special rule, and the unit fails a Morale check or Pinning test (after any re-rolls they may have), roll immediately on the following table:
1: If the unit is locked in combat or within shooting range with ranged weapons, it is treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. Otherwise it fails normally.
2-4: If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D3 Strength 4 AP- hits and passes the Morale check or Pinning test. If there are no Characters in the unit, it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits instead, but still passes. Saves against these hits are allowed.
5-6: If the unit has 10 or more models, it gains Fearless until the end of the Ork Player's next turn. Otherwise it fails normally.
Add +1 to the results on this table for every five models in this unit after ten.
WAAAGH! grants Furious Charge and Counter Attack in addition to its normal effects.
I'd be more on board with these suggestions if these changes were priced accordingly. But as it is, you just gave Boyz a free S upgrade, lowered a few costs for upgrades and allowed more special weapons (something I'd honestly like is more specials per squad). But it makes little sensse. The Nob in the group is still S4. That now makes zero sense if Boyz are going to be baseline 4S. Nobs are supposed to be stronger. So in making Boyz better, you continue the trend of making Nobs totally useless. I'd NEVER take Nobs if Boyz were base S4.
As for the Trukk, again...you made the base cost cheaper but GAVE it free add ons. You gave it Jink in addition to the old ramshackle...for 5 less points -.-
And that's not even going into the other changes. It's not how you balance things. I know the top dogs are broken, but I'd rather us Orks be weaker and be FAIR. Last thing I ever want to hear is Orks are op/broken/etc.
Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote: Just for fun, I've been putting together my own Ork codex with ideas I've liked from around Dakka and other sites. Here's a sample: the section on Boyz, plus my own version of some of the rules so the stat changes make sense.
Troops
Ork Boyz 60 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv6+
Infantry
10 Ork Boyz
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
Rules:
-'Ere We Go!
-Mob Rule
Options:
-May include up to 20 addition Boyz...6 pts each
-The entire mob may replace their Sluggas with Shootas...free
-The entire mob may take 'Eavy Armor...2 pts per model
-For every 6 models in the unit, one model may replace their ranged weapon with:
Big Shoota...5 pts
Rokkit Launcha...5 pts
Burna...10 pts
-One model may be upgraded to:
Boss Nob...10 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W2 I3 A3 Ld8 Sv4+
Infantry (Character)
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
-'Eavy Armor
Rules:
-'Ere We Go
-Mob Rule
Options:
-Boss Nob may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and Orky-Know-wots lists (may not take awarbike).
-Unit may select a Trukk or Looted Wagon as a Dedicated Transport.
(Since my version of Nobz come stock with 'Eavy Armor, you don't pay 2 pts for the Boy'z armor and then upgrade, but rather the Nob upgrade comes first.)
Trukk 25 pts
BS2 AV10/10/10 HP3
Vehicle (Fast, Open-topped, Transport)
1 Trukk
Wargear
-Big Shoota
Rules
-Jink
-Dakka Dakka WAAAGH!
Fire an additional shot when a WAAAGH! is called.
-Ramshackle
Vehicles with the Ramshackle rule only Explode at S3 AP-. Furthermore, if the vehicle suffers an Explode results, roll a D6.
1-2 the vehicle Explodes normally
3-4, the vehicle only suffers a Wrecked result instead.
5-6, the vehicle moves D6+6" (If possible. If the vehicle encounters Impassable Terrain or another vehicle that is not a flyer, it can go no farther) straight forward in the direction is was facing. It then Explodes.
-Hotrod
A model with this rule may elect to add D3" to Combat Speed, Cruising Speed, and moving Flat Out.
Transport:
-Transport Capacity: 15 models.
Options:
-May replace Big Shoota with
Rokkit Launcha...free
Twin-linked Dakkagun...5 pts
Deffgun...10 pts
-May take items from the Ork Vehicle Equipment list.
-'Ere We Go!
If every model in a unit has this special rule, the unit can make Run moves of D3+3" and can re-roll a single dice when determining its charge range.
-Mob Rule
If Every model in a unit has this special rule, and the unit fails a Morale check or Pinning test (after any re-rolls they may have), roll immediately on the following table:
1: If the unit is locked in combat or within shooting range with ranged weapons, it is treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. Otherwise it fails normally.
2-4: If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D3 Strength 4 AP- hits and passes the Morale check or Pinning test. If there are no Characters in the unit, it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits instead, but still passes. Saves against these hits are allowed.
5-6: If the unit has 10 or more models, it gains Fearless until the end of the Ork Player's next turn. Otherwise it fails normally.
Add +1 to the results on this table for every five models in this unit after ten.
WAAAGH! grants Furious Charge and Counter Attack in addition to its normal effects.
I'd be more on board with these suggestions if these changes were priced accordingly. But as it is, you just gave Boyz a free S upgrade, lowered a few costs for upgrades and allowed more special weapons (something I'd honestly like is more specials per squad). But it makes little sensse. The Nob in the group is still S4. That now makes zero sense if Boyz are going to be baseline 4S. Nobs are supposed to be stronger. So in making Boyz better, you continue the trend of making Nobs totally useless. I'd NEVER take Nobs if Boyz were base S4.
As for the Trukk, again...you made the base cost cheaper but GAVE it free add ons. You gave it Jink in addition to the old ramshackle...for 5 less points -.-
And that's not even going into the other changes. It's not how you balance things. I know the top dogs are broken, but I'd rather us Orks be weaker and be FAIR. Last thing I ever want to hear is Orks are op/broken/etc.
Well that is your opinion and you are entitle to it. However, if you think giving boyz S4 is game breaking and what have you then I would ask you to go look at Genestealer cultists who are SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER then ork boyz and I believe they only cost like 1pt more. So there is the problem. I understand you want a "fair" codex, so do we all. But fair doesn't have to mean weak. If everyone goes around with cheese lists then why shouldn't the orks have their overall power level increased (not cheesey levels) but increased to at least combat this cheese.
Grimgrub Dregdakka wrote: Just for fun, I've been putting together my own Ork codex with ideas I've liked from around Dakka and other sites. Here's a sample: the section on Boyz, plus my own version of some of the rules so the stat changes make sense.
Troops
Ork Boyz 60 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv6+
Infantry
10 Ork Boyz
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
Rules:
-'Ere We Go!
-Mob Rule
Options:
-May include up to 20 addition Boyz...6 pts each
-The entire mob may replace their Sluggas with Shootas...free
-The entire mob may take 'Eavy Armor...2 pts per model
-For every 6 models in the unit, one model may replace their ranged weapon with:
Big Shoota...5 pts
Rokkit Launcha...5 pts
Burna...10 pts
-One model may be upgraded to:
Boss Nob...10 pts
WS4 BS2 S4 T4 W2 I3 A3 Ld8 Sv4+
Infantry (Character)
Wargear:
-Slugga
-Choppa
-Stikkbombs
-'Eavy Armor
Rules:
-'Ere We Go
-Mob Rule
Options:
-Boss Nob may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and Orky-Know-wots lists (may not take awarbike).
-Unit may select a Trukk or Looted Wagon as a Dedicated Transport.
(Since my version of Nobz come stock with 'Eavy Armor, you don't pay 2 pts for the Boy'z armor and then upgrade, but rather the Nob upgrade comes first.)
Trukk 25 pts
BS2 AV10/10/10 HP3
Vehicle (Fast, Open-topped, Transport)
1 Trukk
Wargear
-Big Shoota
Rules
-Jink
-Dakka Dakka WAAAGH!
Fire an additional shot when a WAAAGH! is called.
-Ramshackle
Vehicles with the Ramshackle rule only Explode at S3 AP-. Furthermore, if the vehicle suffers an Explode results, roll a D6.
1-2 the vehicle Explodes normally
3-4, the vehicle only suffers a Wrecked result instead.
5-6, the vehicle moves D6+6" (If possible. If the vehicle encounters Impassable Terrain or another vehicle that is not a flyer, it can go no farther) straight forward in the direction is was facing. It then Explodes.
-Hotrod
A model with this rule may elect to add D3" to Combat Speed, Cruising Speed, and moving Flat Out.
Transport:
-Transport Capacity: 15 models.
Options:
-May replace Big Shoota with
Rokkit Launcha...free
Twin-linked Dakkagun...5 pts
Deffgun...10 pts
-May take items from the Ork Vehicle Equipment list.
-'Ere We Go!
If every model in a unit has this special rule, the unit can make Run moves of D3+3" and can re-roll a single dice when determining its charge range.
-Mob Rule
If Every model in a unit has this special rule, and the unit fails a Morale check or Pinning test (after any re-rolls they may have), roll immediately on the following table:
1: If the unit is locked in combat or within shooting range with ranged weapons, it is treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. Otherwise it fails normally.
2-4: If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D3 Strength 4 AP- hits and passes the Morale check or Pinning test. If there are no Characters in the unit, it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits instead, but still passes. Saves against these hits are allowed.
5-6: If the unit has 10 or more models, it gains Fearless until the end of the Ork Player's next turn. Otherwise it fails normally.
Add +1 to the results on this table for every five models in this unit after ten.
WAAAGH! grants Furious Charge and Counter Attack in addition to its normal effects.
I'd be more on board with these suggestions if these changes were priced accordingly. But as it is, you just gave Boyz a free S upgrade, lowered a few costs for upgrades and allowed more special weapons (something I'd honestly like is more specials per squad). But it makes little sensse. The Nob in the group is still S4. That now makes zero sense if Boyz are going to be baseline 4S. Nobs are supposed to be stronger. So in making Boyz better, you continue the trend of making Nobs totally useless. I'd NEVER take Nobs if Boyz were base S4.
As for the Trukk, again...you made the base cost cheaper but GAVE it free add ons. You gave it Jink in addition to the old ramshackle...for 5 less points -.-
And that's not even going into the other changes. It's not how you balance things. I know the top dogs are broken, but I'd rather us Orks be weaker and be FAIR. Last thing I ever want to hear is Orks are op/broken/etc.
Well that is your opinion and you are entitle to it. However, if you think giving boyz S4 is game breaking and what have you then I would ask you to go look at Genestealer cultists who are SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER then ork boyz and I believe they only cost like 1pt more. So there is the problem. I understand you want a "fair" codex, so do we all. But fair doesn't have to mean weak. If everyone goes around with cheese lists then why shouldn't the orks have their overall power level increased (not cheesey levels) but increased to at least combat this cheese.
I never said it was game breaking. What I'm getting at is you can't reasonably give units upgrades and make them cheaper or not change their cost at all. Doing it to one unit doesn't change much, but when you begin to give these free or upgrades that somehow make them cost less to multiple units, you begin to really cause issues with balance. It's exactly how we've gotten to the mess of a game we have today. Bottom line is, the entire game needs to be blown up and redone with the same design choices in mind. But us going and doing the same things as other books isn't solving issues. it's making it worse.
I never said it was game breaking. What I'm getting at is you can't reasonably give units upgrades and make them cheaper or not change their cost at all. Doing it to one unit doesn't change much, but when you begin to give these free or upgrades that somehow make them cost less to multiple units, you begin to really cause issues with balance. It's exactly how we've gotten to the mess of a game we have today. Bottom line is, the entire game needs to be blown up and redone with the same design choices in mind. But us going and doing the same things as other books isn't solving issues. it's making it worse.
I agree that you shouldn't lower the points cost of a unit AND increase its abilities with free upgrades. But at the same time may I point out the giant crock of fanboy excrement that is the Eldar Codex?
Wraithknights became Jump GMC
Scat Bikes gained the ability to all take heavy weapons
Warp Spiders gained the ability to be invulnerable to shooting because of their movement abilities
Fire Dragons gained AP0
Wraithguard gained D strength weapons
and the list goes on and on and on. Did the points cost go up for these units? not really if at all. Some units actually got cheaper. Who ever wrote the Eldar Codex was clearly a fanboy, whoever QC'd the Eldar Codex was either an idiot or a fellow Eldar Fanboy.
What we are left with is a game where if you play against eldar you would be better off just shaking their hands and congratulating them on picking the most OP army to ever exist in Warhammer 40,000.
Until GW nerfs the hell out of the ENTIRE Eldar codex what you are going to have is people like myself who want army wide buffs for their own armies to at least have a chance to compete against the 3 cheese blend that is the Eldar Codex.
JimOnMars wrote: I don't get it. You want us to be flucking eldar?
I guess you didn't read the entire post then jim. Specifically
Until GW nerfs the hell out of the ENTIRE Eldar codex what you are going to have is people like myself who want army wide buffs for their own armies to at least have a chance to compete against the 3 cheese blend that is the Eldar Codex.
And further specifying this part "Army wide buffs for their own armies to at least have a chance" I didn't say "Buff us to Eldar levels so we always beat everyone and have a 50/50 against eldar."
I just want to show up to a game and not have the feeling im spending more time setting up my models then I am going to spend playing the actual game.
I would love for all the armies to get nerfed down to Ork levels, granted with a lot more synergy. But with few exceptions Codex's never get nerfed, they get buffed. So wishing for balance at the Ork level is like spitting into the wind and then getting mad when you splatter yourself.
That's what I don't get. You are quitting because you can't beat Eldar, but you get a great game against CSM. If we were buffed to the point where we had even a chance against Eldar cheese, CSM wouldn't stand a chance.
No difference, you get 1 good game and 1 bad game. Why quit if a game against Eldar is boring, but then not quit if a game against CSM is boring?
JimOnMars wrote: That's what I don't get. You are quitting because you can't beat Eldar, but you get a great game against CSM. If we were buffed to the point where we had even a chance against Eldar cheese, CSM wouldn't stand a chance.
No difference, you get 1 good game and 1 bad game. Why quit if a game against Eldar is boring, but then not quit if a game against CSM is boring?
I only play Orks So I don't complain for CSM players, though I do share their pain.
I think EVERY army that is currently bottom tier should be buffed.
As far as your comment about not being able to beat eldar....well close, its actually Eldar, Tau, most SM lists (Except BA), Necrons. Those are the worst games you can match us against because they have rules that are OP and to difficult to beat with orks most times. On the other hand you also have IG and SoB who are basically built as a codex to Feth orks over, I find those games are very hard to win, but at least I have a chance.
Also, if you read my post about boycotting GW, I am NOT quitting, I am just never going to buy another product directly from GW, im looking for 3rd party sites and using dakka's forum to buy models. I am aware that a lot of that money is going to be used by those people to buy more GW products but at least I am not directly funding them.
