Chapter Tactics fixes
1. Black Templars get Rending in challenges again, because it is stupid they removed it..
2. Clarification that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND. All of them.
3. Salamanders vehicles get bonuses to their flame weapons, because it is stupid they don't.
4. Imperial Fists get clarification that their vehicles get rerolls to hit with Bolter weapons, because they're being used by Imperial Fist Space Marines and it is stupid that hey don't.
Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5
2. Heavy Bolters are Heavy 4
3. Chainswords get rerolls of 1 to wound
4. Combi-Weapons now cost 5 points
5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points
6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points
7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points
HQ fixes
1. Khan is now 150
2. Tigurius is now 175
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. PRETTY sure Helbrecht doesn't have Orbital Bombardment. He now has that
Troop fixes
1. Tactical Marines get to take another Special Weapon at 10 man squads
2. Bikers are always at a minimum of 5 men in a squad and are 22 points a dude now
Elite fixes
1. Tactical Terminators can take two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points, and taking a TH/SS stays the same
Fast Attack fixes
1. None! Assault Marines become mildly better because of a minor fix to Chainswords
Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece
2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid
Oh, and the Battle Demi-Company doesn't give free transports of any kind.
Now you just slowly add Dark Angels and Blood Angels. Done.
Well, I was tempted to say that 5 point pistols are too cheap, but on second thought, no, probably not. The most abusive thing you could do with that is dual-grav-pistol vanguard vets, and that's not broken. Strong if expensive, but not broken.
For heavy bolters, maybe Salvo 2/4 instead of Heavy 4?
Mostly ok but why Str 5 Stormbolters? They're only still only use bolter ammo.
Terminators - not so sure on the 2 HW for 5 men but giving them special ammo does seem to be fairly accepted on here. since Overkill showed alternative ammo options for this stuff.
Bikes - keep the min size as 3 but tweak the requirements for upgrades, eg no attack bike unless you have the full 8 standard bikers.
Assault marines - let them take meltaguns (an assault weapon).
Not so sure on the chainblades. Fluff wise that works but then but the same margin terminator armour should get +1 Str standard as it's meant to boost a marines strength significantly more then power armour.
Tigurius, Telion & Chronus and lose Ultramarine chapter tactics and replace it with the standard "chapter tactics" - either that or add a tank commander, chief Librarian (upgrade) and Scout character (replace with scout armour & infiltrate) options for non Ultramarines.
Slight side note - battle companies don't get free transports - Gladius Strikeforces do. Possible replace the free rhinos rule with something more in line with the new Angles of death formations though.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:1. Black Templars get Rending in challenges again, because it is stupid they removed it..
2. Clarification that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND. All of them.
3. Salamanders vehicles get bonuses to their flame weapons, because it is stupid they don't.
4. Imperial Fists get clarification that their vehicles get rerolls to hit with Bolter weapons, because they're being used by Imperial Fist Space Marines and it is stupid that hey don't.
2-4 can be simplified into a single rule: "All SM vehicles now have the chapter tactics special rule."
Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5
Heavy bolters and stormbolters now have the same strength? Do they fire the same sized bullets?
5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points
5 points or 5 points less?
6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points
Why? It's not terminator armor. It does need a price reduction, though. Replacing power armor with terminator armor is much less expensive than the armor indomitus.
7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points
I'm inclined to agree with this. Fear is practically useless, and Pedro gets the effects of that banner, plus other stuff, for a lot cheaper.
HQ fixes
1. Khan is now 150
2. Tigurius is now 175
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. PRETTY sure Helbrecht doesn't have Orbital Bombardment. He now has that
1. Only chapter masters should get orbital bombardment. Helbrecht is not a chapter master. He is a "high marshal," whatever that is. That's what you get for not rigidly following the Codex Astartes.
2. Captain + jump pack = 105 points. A lightning claw is only 15 ppm. I'm at 135. Imho, even taking into account his special rules, Shryke still hideously overcosted at 175.
2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points
30 ppm for a model in terminator armor? Why?
Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece
Why does a model which fires barrage large blasts at 72 inches need a price reduction?
2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid
It replaces a twin-linked heavy bolter. 35 (the cost of the cannon) - 10 (the cost of a heavy bolter) = 25.
Oh, and the Battle Demi-Company doesn't give free transports of any kind.
Why not?
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ScarVet101 wrote:Slight side note - battle companies don't get free transports - Gladius Strikeforces do.
False. To get free transports, you have to take 2 demicompanies. A demicompany is a captain or chaplain, 3 tactical marines squads, a devastator squad (or equivalent) and an assault marine squad (or equivalent).
Those 2 demicompanies together make a battle company, assuming one demicompany has a captain, and the other a chaplain. To get the free transports, you have to take a battle company + an auxillary formation. And then the free transports only apply to the units in the demicompanies.
Possible replace the free rhinos rule with something more in line with the new Angles of death formations though.
ScarVet101 wrote: Mostly ok but why Str 5 Stormbolters? They're only still only use bolter ammo.
Terminators - not so sure on the 2 HW for 5 men but giving them special ammo does seem to be fairly accepted on here. since Overkill showed alternative ammo options for this stuff.
Bikes - keep the min size as 3 but tweak the requirements for upgrades, eg no attack bike unless you have the full 8 standard bikers.
Assault marines - let them take meltaguns (an assault weapon).
Not so sure on the chainblades. Fluff wise that works but then but the same margin terminator armour should get +1 Str standard as it's meant to boost a marines strength significantly more then power armour.
Tigurius, Telion & Chronus and lose Ultramarine chapter tactics and replace it with the standard "chapter tactics" - either that or add a tank commander, chief Librarian (upgrade) and Scout character (replace with scout armour & infiltrate) options for non Ultramarines.
Slight side note - battle companies don't get free transports - Gladius Strikeforces do. Possible replace the free rhinos rule with something more in line with the new Angles of death formations though.
Eh lets not hand out um characters to everyone else. i know some space marines really want it but i rather not homogenize all of them any more than they are now.
Not sure of all the standard equipment changes like the storm bolter and heavy bolter.
Grav weapons need to change badly. i dont mind the based on armor save thing but it really shouldnt be AP2. its a complicated weapon that should have some sort of down side.
some formations are ok but the drop pod one needs to be tone downed hard. if anything there should be a cap for formations in any army.
some ideas i like others are kinda meh.
pm713 wrote: What about Shrikes weird infiltrate ability? Is that still broken in 7th?
It works fine RAW. It's awkwardly done, sure, but it works. However, he's not worth 185. Give him a small discount and test him to see what happens.
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Matthew wrote: I like everything except the Biker squad limitations. Feels unnecessary to buy 2 boxes of something to field it.
Maybe just as troops then. It seemed like a good way to nerf bikes without actually nerfing them outside the additional point.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Ideally something needs to be done about Grav killing vehicles too well. Codex Marines live and die by the efficiency of Grav weapons.
It could always just strip the HP and not immobilize. That way they're still doing work against vehicles.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It could always just strip the HP and not immobilize. That way they're still doing work against vehicles.
No. Grav weapons should have determinate strengths and weaknesses. Plasma is high strength and low AP, but gets hot. Multimelta is high strength, low AP and excellent against vehicles, but is very short range. Lascannons are high strength and low AP, but are heavy weapons and cost 20 ppm.
Grav needs more weaknesses to offset their benefits.
Desubot wrote: Grav really shouldnt work on vehicles at all. there are all sorts of weapons that cant do gak to vehicles so why should the grav be an exception.
you gotta figure out exactly what you want the grav to do and figure out a fix from there.
Grav weapons are supposed to make really heavy things cave in on themselves.
The problem with grav weapons is that they're all salvo weapons (except for the pistol), and the grav amp basically makes the cannon twin-linked.
When you're able to spam it on relentless units, that's a problem.
ScarVet101 wrote: Mostly ok but why Str 5 Stormbolters? They're only still only use bolter ammo.
Terminators - not so sure on the 2 HW for 5 men but giving them special ammo does seem to be fairly accepted on here. since Overkill showed alternative ammo options for this stuff.
Bikes - keep the min size as 3 but tweak the requirements for upgrades, eg no attack bike unless you have the full 8 standard bikers.
Assault marines - let them take meltaguns (an assault weapon).
Not so sure on the chainblades. Fluff wise that works but then but the same margin terminator armour should get +1 Str standard as it's meant to boost a marines strength significantly more then power armour.
Tigurius, Telion & Chronus and lose Ultramarine chapter tactics and replace it with the standard "chapter tactics" - either that or add a tank commander, chief Librarian (upgrade) and Scout character (replace with scout armour & infiltrate) options for non Ultramarines.
Slight side note - battle companies don't get free transports - Gladius Strikeforces do. Possible replace the free rhinos rule with something more in line with the new Angles of death formations though.
Storm Bolters are spitting out more and look to be mildly larger. Plus we don't need more S4 shooting outside Tacticals. S5 at least lets Terminators have a chance to wound a larger target they would shoot at and charge with fists.
Regarding Terminators getting special ammo, no. That is the gimmick of Sternguard. Otherwise, we're relegating Sternguard to pure suicide roles.
Nobody is taking the Attack Bike anyway.
Assault Marines can get Melta Guns when I or someone else incorporates Blood Angels in this fix. My main idea would be not to let Assault Marines access Special Weapons at all. Rather, they get access to all the pistol variants (still at 5 points a piece), and a Jump Pack HQ unlocks them as troops. However, that's more typing I didn't really want to do.
It's a very insignificant add-on that goes a long way to make Assault Marines worth a look. Regarding Terminator Armor giving a Strength boost, you're taking Power Fists more than likely anyway. I've yet to see someone keep a Terminator Captain/Master with their Sword.
Those are Ultramarine specific characters. They stay as is. Should you want to create more special characters for Iron Hands (they've got 1 from FW, and that's from a Successor so that doesn't count), just create rules that kinda make sense.
Also, Battle Demi-Companies do get the free transports.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: I like a lot of these fixes. Could we allow 6 man bike squads but at 24 ppm since bike boxes come with 3?
Only if you're willing to accept the same limitations and price for windriders.
Few things I find funny.
1. The 24 ppm was actually something you and I and some other discussed and agreed on, even for windriders, and so I've already "accepted that"
2. The fact that either a) you don't remember that conversation or b) you are just trying to troll.
1. The 24 ppm was actually something you and I and some other discussed and agreed on, even for windriders, and so I've already "accepted that"
2. The fact that either a) you don't remember that conversation or b) you are just trying to troll.
I don't remember you actually formally agreeing to 1.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:1. Black Templars get Rending in challenges again, because it is stupid they removed it..
2. Clarification that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND. All of them.
3. Salamanders vehicles get bonuses to their flame weapons, because it is stupid they don't.
4. Imperial Fists get clarification that their vehicles get rerolls to hit with Bolter weapons, because they're being used by Imperial Fist Space Marines and it is stupid that hey don't.
2-4 can be simplified into a single rule: "All SM vehicles now have the chapter tactics special rule."
Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5
Heavy bolters and stormbolters now have the same strength? Do they fire the same sized bullets?
5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points
5 points or 5 points less?
6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points
Why? It's not terminator armor. It does need a price reduction, though. Replacing power armor with terminator armor is much less expensive than the armor indomitus.
7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points
I'm inclined to agree with this. Fear is practically useless, and Pedro gets the effects of that banner, plus other stuff, for a lot cheaper.
HQ fixes
1. Khan is now 150
2. Tigurius is now 175
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. PRETTY sure Helbrecht doesn't have Orbital Bombardment. He now has that
1. Only chapter masters should get orbital bombardment. Helbrecht is not a chapter master. He is a "high marshal," whatever that is. That's what you get for not rigidly following the Codex Astartes.
2. Captain + jump pack = 105 points. A lightning claw is only 15 ppm. I'm at 135. Imho, even taking into account his special rules, Shryke still hideously overcosted at 175.
2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points
30 ppm for a model in terminator armor? Why?
Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece
Why does a model which fires barrage large blasts at 72 inches need a price reduction?
2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid
It replaces a twin-linked heavy bolter. 35 (the cost of the cannon) - 10 (the cost of a heavy bolter) = 25.
Oh, and the Battle Demi-Company doesn't give free transports of any kind.
Why not?
I'm fine with free rhinos.
Oh yeah. We COULD just go with that.
They're not the same AP or firing rate, and Storm Bolters do appear larger. The fix is fine.
Pistols are 5 points, not 5 points less.
It's basically Terminator-armor-but-not. Last edition gave it Relentless, and taking that away on top of no discount was stupid. Therefore, giving a small discount AND conferring Relentless means your Bolters from the occasional Combi-Weapon aren't almost useless.
Glad you agree on the Banner.
Helbrecht IS a Chapter Master. High Marshal is nothing but a fancier title, and the Black Templars are a crusading FLEET chapter. He gets the Bombardment.
With Shrike, you're basically paying the extra 40 points for Infiltrating a Vanguard squad and getting Rending on his Claws. I say 175 and test to see what happens.
Lightning Claw Terminators become 30 a piece because that equipment being the same cost as a Storm Bolter and Fist is complete bogus. TH/SS Terminators become 40 again, and there's a semblance of almost-internal balance.
I'm PRETTY sure Whirlwinds don't have 72" on their guns. Even then, I wouldn't take it over a Thunderfire. Ergo, slight price cut.
I also don't care. You're assuming that they were upgraded with the Heavy Bolter. Pretty sure the Predator would pay less for its TL Lascannon using that logic, but that's not a bad idea as Predators are rarely taken. That said, you want balance on Grav Centurions? Making them 10 points more to take does that job fine.
Free transports and upgrades is stupid. Rules can be perfectly acceptable and fluffy, but it isn't fluffy that Space Marines just get free vehicles for working together in a specific manner. Therefore, there needs to be a different bonus.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Pistols are 5 points, not 5 points less.
I don't think that I can agree with this.
5 points for a grav or plasma pistol seems unreasonably underpriced. I could see making it 5 ppm less than current, though. Then a plasma pistol or grav pistol would be points equivalent to a meltagun or multimelta. But even then, does a grav pistol really need a points reduction?
It's basically Terminator-armor-but-not. Last edition gave it Relentless, and taking that away on top of no discount was stupid. Therefore, giving a small discount AND conferring Relentless means your Bolters from the occasional Combi-Weapon aren't almost useless.
I think the problem is that it's just artificer armor. Artificer armor is just really old, really nice, really well crafted power armor. Power armor doesn't confer relentless (it should; but it doesn't).
Actually, how's that for a fix?
Power armor confers relentless.
Glad you agree on the Banner.
Actually, I'm having second thoughts about this. How much is a 12 inch fearless bubble worth?
Helbrecht IS a Chapter Master. High Marshal is nothing but a fancier title, and the Black Templars are a crusading FLEET chapter. He gets the Bombardment.
Noted. Also, it occurs to me:
That's a "4" underneath W and A on the statline on p. 126.
Lightning Claw Terminators become 30 a piece because that equipment being the same cost as a Storm Bolter and Fist is complete bogus. TH/SS Terminators become 40 again, and there's a semblance of almost-internal balance.
A lightning claw terminator is basically an honor guard, minus the ranged weapons, plus a 5+ invuln, add dual wielding lightning claws.
30 points seems fair.
I'm PRETTY sure Whirlwinds don't have 72" on their guns. Even then, I wouldn't take it over a Thunderfire. Ergo, slight price cut.
You're right. 12-48.
Still, that's "ordnance" and "barrage" in the weapon statline. Not to mention the formation bonuses.
I also don't care. You're assuming that they were upgraded with the Heavy Bolter.
They come with heavy bolters. The grav cannon replaces the heavy bolters.
Pretty sure the Predator would pay less for its TL Lascannon using that logic, but that's not a bad idea as Predators are rarely taken.
It's 25 ppm to replace the autocannon with a TL lascannon. I have no clue how much a TL lascannon is worth.
For comparative purposes, the Razorback replaces the TL heavy bolter with a lascannon and TL plasma gun for 20 points.
That's a big discount.
That said, you want balance on Grav Centurions? Making them 10 points more to take does that job fine.
Imho, the solution is: 1. to make centurions as such more appropriately costed (a 2 wound model with that save, that toughness and that wargear shouldn't be a 55 point model), 2. nerf grav and 3. nerf psychic support.
Free transports and upgrades is stupid. Rules can be perfectly acceptable and fluffy, but it isn't fluffy that Space Marines just get free vehicles for working together in a specific manner. Therefore, there needs to be a different bonus.
I have no a priori reason to think that free transports and upgrades is stupid or unreasonable. The fact that you personally don't like it doesn't make it unfair or overpowered.
All special rules, transports, upgrades, etc. have a points value. It makes no difference if free models, transports, upgrades, special rules, etc. are conferred. Points equivalencies/balance can be effected regardless.
And I want you to bear this in mind:
Would a captain, a chaplain, 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault marine squads be viable without free rhinos?
Furthermore:
If I'm taking 700 points of marines and 180 points of chaplain and captain, I'm already imposing a fairly serious tax on my army. That tax needs to be compensated, and gaining, for all intents and purposes, Ultramarines Chapter Tactics in addition to whatever it is that I already have simply doesn't cut it.
Haha it's always nice to see the optimism! As a precursor to everything below, a lot of what you've said in the original post doesn't seem to address any actual issues with the codex.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Chapter Tactics fixes
1. Black Templars get Rending in challenges again, because it is stupid they removed it..
2. Clarification that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND. All of them.
3. Salamanders vehicles get bonuses to their flame weapons, because it is stupid they don't.
4. Imperial Fists get clarification that their vehicles get rerolls to hit with Bolter weapons, because they're being used by Imperial Fist Space Marines and it is stupid that hey don't.
(1) As much as I'd love my BTs having Rending in Challenges, I feel this is a SR that you give a weapon, not a model or unit.
(2) What needs clarification?
(3) I agree.
(4) I reckon this is an arguable point, but I would have no objections to this being implemented.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5
2. Heavy Bolters are Heavy 4
3. Chainswords get rerolls of 1 to wound
4. Combi-Weapons now cost 5 points
5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points
6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points
7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points
(1) As was mentioned before: Storm Bolters should not be Strength 5. They're an Assault 2 Weapon rather than a Rapid Fire Weapon, which means they're already better than their standard Bolter counterparts.
(2) As was mentioned before: They should be along the lines of Salvo 2/4. That seems more fair.
(3) I think that would make a good Special Rule that was part of the Chapter Tactics for Blood Angels, Black Templars, and/or somebody similar.
(4) I can get on board with this.
(5) Grav Pistols and Plasma Pistols should be 10 points. 5 points is too cheap.
(6) TAI doesn't need to be changed IMHO, though a flat reduction in points to 50 points would be nice.
(7) No preference on this.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:HQ fixes
1. Khan is now 150
2. Tigurius is now 175
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. PRETTY sure Helbrecht doesn't have Orbital Bombardment. He now has that
I can't comment on the first three, but I don't think Helbrecht needs Orbital Bombardment. It's not a necessity to have it, and I think he's better of being upgraded and made a Lord of War. Whether that entails OB is something I'm not fussed on, but there's no reason why he can't have it. There's just no particular reason why he needs it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Troop fixes
1. Tactical Marines get to take another Special Weapon at 10 man squads
2. Bikers are always at a minimum of 5 men in a squad and are 22 points a dude now
(1) I can get behind this.
(2) I don't understand: Why do people think bikes need to be more expensive? And considering the increase is only 1 pt/model, what's the point?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Elite fixes
1. Tactical Terminators can take two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points, and taking a TH/SS stays the same
I don't think these are the changes that need to be made. I think you're better off making them such that they have T5, W2, A3 (on the Sergeants only), and possibly S5. Does this warrant a points increase? Maybe (probably). Does it warrant much of a points increase if the answer to the last question was 'yes'? No.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Fast Attack fixes
1. None! Assault Marines become mildly better because of a minor fix to Chainswords
I think Assault Marines (and Jump Units in general) could benefit from being able to assault after arriving by Deep Strike with the following restrictions (should they choose to assault that turn):
-- Cannot manifest psykic powers during the turn the arrive by DS.
-- Cannot make shooting attacks during the turn the arrive by DS.
-- Do not benefit from items/SRs/other effects that prevent them from scattering or reduce their scatter distance.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece
2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid
No to both. Whirlwinds definitely don't need to be cheaper, and Grav Cannons need to be nerfed, NOT Centurions.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Storm Bolters are spitting out more and look to be mildly larger.
I think you should look into Storm Bolters. They're just a twin-barreled version of a standard Bolter. They might look like they use bigger ammunition, but they don't.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Plus we don't need more S4 shooting outside Tacticals. S5 at least lets Terminators have a chance to wound a larger target they would shoot at and charge with fists
We need S5 shooting attacks even less. And being an S4 Assault 2 Weapon does exactly what you apparently want it to do anyway,
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Assault Marines can get Melta Guns when I or someone else incorporates Blood Angels in this fix. My main idea would be not to let Assault Marines access Special Weapons at all. Rather, they get access to all the pistol variants (still at 5 points a piece), and a Jump Pack HQ unlocks them as troops.
Why change them like this? It's unnecessary and doesn't address any problem. Plus Jump Units as Troops Choices is travelling too much into territory Vanilla Marines should not be in.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:However, that's more typing I didn't really want to do.
If you don't want to be doing a lot of typing, then genuinely trying to actually fix a codex isn't for you because it will generally involve a lot of writing (not to mention of lot of identifying problems and reading).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It's a very insignificant add-on that goes a long way to make Assault Marines worth a look. Regarding Terminator Armor giving a Strength boost, you're taking Power Fists more than likely anyway. I've yet to see someone keep a Terminator Captain/Master with their Sword.
A Strength boost for Terminator Armour actually makes sense since it's a larger suit of armour compared to regular Power Armour and, like Power Armour, Terminator Armour is powered (duh). So it is plausible. Also, the fact that it's typical of people to take Power Fists on their Terminator Captain/Chapter Master should not play any role in deciding whether or not a strength boost from Terminator Armour is appropriate.
Every Chapter Master in the book except Helbrecht has Orbital Strike. The Black Templars are experts in space warfare to the degree that Helbrecht was made Supreme Commander over the Armageddon space theatre of operations. If anyone ought to have Orbital Strike, it's Helbrecht. He's not relentless anyway, so he'd have to waste a turn to use it.
Why would a 5 point pistol be so terrifying? It's one shot at 12". What's the nastiest possible scenario? Vanguard Veterans with 2 Grav-pistols each are more expensive Grav Devastators, even at 5 points per pistol, without Grav amps with lower range. What are we so afraid of?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Every Chapter Master in the book except Helbrecht has Orbital Strike. The Black Templars are experts in space warfare to the degree that Helbrecht was made Supreme Commander over the Armageddon space theatre of operations. If anyone ought to have Orbital Strike, it's Helbrecht. He's not relentless anyway, so he'd have to waste a turn to use it.
Fair call.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Why would a 5 point pistol be so terrifying? It's one shot at 12". What's the nastiest possible scenario? Vanguard Veterans with 2 Grav-pistols each are more expensive Grav Devastators, even at 5 points per pistol, without Grav amps with lower range. What are we so afraid of?
Maybe not for Grav Pistols, but Plasma Pistols at 5 Points? That's pretty cheap for a S7 AP2 shot, even with a 12" Range and Gets Hot.
No it isn't. You're paying 29 PPM (assuming Vanguard Veterans with 2 pistols each) for MEQ on foot with an 18" threat range that risk killing themselves when they shoot. Plasma Pistols just aren't very good even when massed. Sure, you could Drop Pod them in, at which point they die because T4 3+ is nothing special at all.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No it isn't. You're paying 29 PPM (assuming Vanguard Veterans with 2 pistols each) for MEQ on foot with an 18" threat range that risk killing themselves when they shoot. Plasma Pistols just aren't very good even when massed. Sure, you could Drop Pod them in, at which point they die because T4 3+ is nothing special at all.
Fair enough. At the very least, we can both agree they're most definitely not worth the 15 points the codex currently requires you to pay for Plasma Pistols.
Grav weapons definitely shouldn't have AP2, simply forcing re-rolls on armour saves would be plenty IMO, as that still reduces a ~66% chance to pass down to ~44% if my math is right, 2+ is reduced from ~88% to ~77%, but was ~16.6% easier to wound in the first place. I'd say what they need more is some mechanic based on size, e.g- inflict D3 Wounds against Very Bulky, or each hit is multiplied into one hit per Wound (so if you hit with one shot against a 3 wound target, that's 3 hits).
There are a bunch of options that aren't nearly as messed up as the current grav rules, without penalising terminators so much.
Storm Bolters shouldn't be Strength 5, I'd say they should instead be Assault 2/Heavy 4, so Terminators being Relentless will always fire double the number of shots, while others have to stay put to get that bonus. Heavy Bolters should perhaps be the same or be Salvo 3/5 or such; an Assault Cannon still has better Strength and Rending.
Chainswords should IMO be min Strength 4 and AP5; obviously the Strength doesn't help marines, but would make the distinction between freakin' chainsaw sword and tiny little combat knife a lot more significant for everyone.
Haravikk wrote: Grav weapons definitely shouldn't have AP2, simply forcing re-rolls on armour saves would be plenty IMO, as that still reduces a ~66% chance to pass down to ~44% if my math is right, 2+ is reduced from ~88% to ~77%, but was ~16.6% easier to wound in the first place. I'd say what they need more is some mechanic based on size, e.g- inflict D3 Wounds against Very Bulky, or each hit is multiplied into one hit per Wound (so if you hit with one shot against a 3 wound target, that's 3 hits).
As long as the weapon doesn't have any AP value, then re-rolling armour saves sounds pretty good to me. As for vehicles, I reckon a good system would be to do it by AV bands (e.g. 10 - 12, and 12 - 14) or something like that where every AV or AV band is affected differently by Grav Weapons (e.g. AV 10 - 12 band take one Hit at S6 AP- and AV 13 - 14 take D2 + 1 Hits at S8 AP-).
Haravikk wrote: Chainswords should IMO be min Strength 4 and AP5; obviously the Strength doesn't help marines, but would make the distinction between freakin' chainsaw sword and tiny little combat knife a lot more significant for everyone.
I reckon Chainswords are fine as they are, but they should be different from the basic 'Close Combat Weapon' weapon. Instead of buffing Chainswords, the 'Close Combat Weapon' should be nerfed to, for example, S3 AP- and doesn't confer the +1 Attack when paired with another CCW-class weapon.
Grav needs to retain AP2 as long as Monstrous Creatures with 2+ armour exist. Making it wound normal models on a 5+, bulky on 4+, very bulky on 3+ and extremely bulky on 2+, as well as doing something about Grav-amps and the effect on vehicles should be enough.
I'm fine with it keeping AP: 2, but how about this:
Grav wounds based on bulk:
against non-bulky infantry (and beasts): 6+(or 5+)
bulky infantry (and cavalry?): 4+
very bulky: 3+
extremely bulky, MCs, GMCs: 2+
vehicles stay the same however it only immobilizes on a 5+ after a glance.
this makes it less effective against general infantry, still keeps it strong against terminators (and more importantly MCs/GMCs), and over-all tones down the weapon, meaning there's an actual reason to take the other special weapons when compared to current grav.
IllumiNini wrote: I reckon Chainswords are fine as they are, but they should be different from the basic 'Close Combat Weapon' weapon. Instead of buffing Chainswords, the 'Close Combat Weapon' should be nerfed to, for example, S3 AP- and doesn't confer the +1 Attack when paired with another CCW-class weapon.
I dunno, I'd say a Space Marine with a combat knife shouldn't be hitting at Strength 3, so I'd say that close combat weapons are fine as-is; in fact most of the time they're specifically a fancy way of saying "gets +1 attack if it also has a pistol" so making them specifically fail to do that would be a major nerf. The problem IMO is that chainswords are described as chewing through armour (sometimes even power armour) yet in-game they can barely chew through paper (a.k.a.- "A Sister Repentia's armour").
I think minimum Strength 4 and AP5 value would be nice for marines, but especially so for Strength 3 models like Sisters Repentia, and the guard models that get them. In case of marines it means they can ignore the same AP that their shooting ignores already, which would help Assault Marines chew through horde enemies more easily at least.
for chainswords I probably wouldn't go to much beyond AP: 6 (and give heavy chainswords AP: 3 'cause why not ). the fact of the matter is that fluff =/= table top or else we would have multi-wound, high toughness marines in heavier armour. From a gameplay perspective, giving chainswords any buffs without separating them from regular CCWs is simply a kick to the teeth for nids, orks, and other light armour armies.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Pistols are 5 points, not 5 points less.
I don't think that I can agree with this.
5 points for a grav or plasma pistol seems unreasonably underpriced. I could see making it 5 ppm less than current, though. Then a plasma pistol or grav pistol would be points equivalent to a meltagun or multimelta. But even then, does a grav pistol really need a points reduction?
It's basically Terminator-armor-but-not. Last edition gave it Relentless, and taking that away on top of no discount was stupid. Therefore, giving a small discount AND conferring Relentless means your Bolters from the occasional Combi-Weapon aren't almost useless.
I think the problem is that it's just artificer armor. Artificer armor is just really old, really nice, really well crafted power armor. Power armor doesn't confer relentless (it should; but it doesn't).
Actually, how's that for a fix?
Power armor confers relentless.
Glad you agree on the Banner.
Actually, I'm having second thoughts about this. How much is a 12 inch fearless bubble worth?
Helbrecht IS a Chapter Master. High Marshal is nothing but a fancier title, and the Black Templars are a crusading FLEET chapter. He gets the Bombardment.
Noted. Also, it occurs to me:
That's a "4" underneath W and A on the statline on p. 126.
Lightning Claw Terminators become 30 a piece because that equipment being the same cost as a Storm Bolter and Fist is complete bogus. TH/SS Terminators become 40 again, and there's a semblance of almost-internal balance.
A lightning claw terminator is basically an honor guard, minus the ranged weapons, plus a 5+ invuln, add dual wielding lightning claws.
30 points seems fair.
I'm PRETTY sure Whirlwinds don't have 72" on their guns. Even then, I wouldn't take it over a Thunderfire. Ergo, slight price cut.
You're right. 12-48.
Still, that's "ordnance" and "barrage" in the weapon statline. Not to mention the formation bonuses.
I also don't care. You're assuming that they were upgraded with the Heavy Bolter.
They come with heavy bolters. The grav cannon replaces the heavy bolters.
Pretty sure the Predator would pay less for its TL Lascannon using that logic, but that's not a bad idea as Predators are rarely taken.
It's 25 ppm to replace the autocannon with a TL lascannon. I have no clue how much a TL lascannon is worth.
For comparative purposes, the Razorback replaces the TL heavy bolter with a lascannon and TL plasma gun for 20 points.
That's a big discount.
That said, you want balance on Grav Centurions? Making them 10 points more to take does that job fine.
Imho, the solution is: 1. to make centurions as such more appropriately costed (a 2 wound model with that save, that toughness and that wargear shouldn't be a 55 point model), 2. nerf grav and 3. nerf psychic support.
Free transports and upgrades is stupid. Rules can be perfectly acceptable and fluffy, but it isn't fluffy that Space Marines just get free vehicles for working together in a specific manner. Therefore, there needs to be a different bonus.
I have no a priori reason to think that free transports and upgrades is stupid or unreasonable. The fact that you personally don't like it doesn't make it unfair or overpowered.
All special rules, transports, upgrades, etc. have a points value. It makes no difference if free models, transports, upgrades, special rules, etc. are conferred. Points equivalencies/balance can be effected regardless.
And I want you to bear this in mind:
Would a captain, a chaplain, 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault marine squads be viable without free rhinos?
Furthermore:
If I'm taking 700 points of marines and 180 points of chaplain and captain, I'm already imposing a fairly serious tax on my army. That tax needs to be compensated, and gaining, for all intents and purposes, Ultramarines Chapter Tactics in addition to whatever it is that I already have simply doesn't cut it.
1. 10 points would make the Plasma Pistol the equivalent of a Melta Gun. No. They certainly aren't worth the price of a Plasma Gun, and they aren't worth the price of a Melta Gun.
As well, Grav only works when you get a large number of shots with them. A Grav Pistol being 5 points is perfectly fine, even if you don't seem to understand that.
2. Power Armor shouldn't be Relentless. As well, how far back do you have to cut the price of TAI to make it worth anything in the current state. Think about it:
a. It is only Artificer Armor, though coming with a 6++. Librarians can just take regular Terminator armor for a 5++.
b. You're also paying for the convenience of being able to take it on Chaplains and Librarians, not suffering potential drawbacks of being Bulky. This really only translates to making it easier to throw someone in a Drop Pod.
c. It gives a 2++ once per game. If you were facing AM, you probably wouldn't use this ability once. Otherwise, you're easily able to grab SS's for a 3++, which is more consistent.
Therefore, not only did it need a drastic price cut, but it needed to gain Relentless back, even if it was hardly taken advantage of.
3. Fearless isn't worth much. It is easily found in outside sources if you care THAT much, but I don't really think most Marine players wish they had Fearless a lot.
4. Good, you agree on Helbrecht. Moving on.
5. Good, you agree on LC Terminators. Moving on.
6. You're showing that you haven't read your codex much. Also, nobody is taking the Whirlwind anyway WITH the squadron bonus. It isn't like Thunderfires are already taken enmasse.
7. Lascannons and Heavy Bolters aren't worth much. Centurions of any other kind aren't taken, yet hitting the Grav Cannon as hard as some people want means that they won't be taken, period. Therefore, we make it cost the same as it would on a regular Space Marine. Bam, now they're almost 100 a piece. Perfectly fine for what they do.
8. It is unreasonable. Rhinos are bad at 35 points, but become stupid when free. The bonus itself makes no sense as well. A Necron Decurion makes sense for its unit makeup and bonuses. An Eldar Decurion makes sense for its unit makeup and bonuses. A Daemonkin Decurion makes sense for its unit makeup and bonuses. The Space Marine Decurion makes sense until we're given free transports. It makes no sense lore-wise or balance-wise. Therefore, we find a different bonus. I don't know what it would be, but at the very least with my fixes the issue is partially solved.
9. Tactical Marines shouldn't BE a tax in the first place. Nor should Assault Marines or Devastators. Hence why I did the things I did to make those units more worthwhile. I fixed the core issue, not created another one.
Haha it's always nice to see the optimism! As a precursor to everything below, a lot of what you've said in the original post doesn't seem to address any actual issues with the codex.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Chapter Tactics fixes
1. Black Templars get Rending in challenges again, because it is stupid they removed it..
2. Clarification that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND. All of them.
3. Salamanders vehicles get bonuses to their flame weapons, because it is stupid they don't.
4. Imperial Fists get clarification that their vehicles get rerolls to hit with Bolter weapons, because they're being used by Imperial Fist Space Marines and it is stupid that hey don't.
(1) As much as I'd love my BTs having Rending in Challenges, I feel this is a SR that you give a weapon, not a model or unit.
(2) What needs clarification?
(3) I agree.
(4) I reckon this is an arguable point, but I would have no objections to this being implemented.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5
2. Heavy Bolters are Heavy 4
3. Chainswords get rerolls of 1 to wound
4. Combi-Weapons now cost 5 points
5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points
6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points
7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points
(1) As was mentioned before: Storm Bolters should not be Strength 5. They're an Assault 2 Weapon rather than a Rapid Fire Weapon, which means they're already better than their standard Bolter counterparts.
(2) As was mentioned before: They should be along the lines of Salvo 2/4. That seems more fair.
(3) I think that would make a good Special Rule that was part of the Chapter Tactics for Blood Angels, Black Templars, and/or somebody similar.
(4) I can get on board with this.
(5) Grav Pistols and Plasma Pistols should be 10 points. 5 points is too cheap.
(6) TAI doesn't need to be changed IMHO, though a flat reduction in points to 50 points would be nice.
(7) No preference on this.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:HQ fixes
1. Khan is now 150
2. Tigurius is now 175
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. PRETTY sure Helbrecht doesn't have Orbital Bombardment. He now has that
I can't comment on the first three, but I don't think Helbrecht needs Orbital Bombardment. It's not a necessity to have it, and I think he's better of being upgraded and made a Lord of War. Whether that entails OB is something I'm not fussed on, but there's no reason why he can't have it. There's just no particular reason why he needs it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Troop fixes
1. Tactical Marines get to take another Special Weapon at 10 man squads
2. Bikers are always at a minimum of 5 men in a squad and are 22 points a dude now
(1) I can get behind this.
(2) I don't understand: Why do people think bikes need to be more expensive? And considering the increase is only 1 pt/model, what's the point?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Elite fixes
1. Tactical Terminators can take two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points, and taking a TH/SS stays the same
I don't think these are the changes that need to be made. I think you're better off making them such that they have T5, W2, A3 (on the Sergeants only), and possibly S5. Does this warrant a points increase? Maybe (probably). Does it warrant much of a points increase if the answer to the last question was 'yes'? No.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Fast Attack fixes
1. None! Assault Marines become mildly better because of a minor fix to Chainswords
I think Assault Marines (and Jump Units in general) could benefit from being able to assault after arriving by Deep Strike with the following restrictions (should they choose to assault that turn):
-- Cannot manifest psykic powers during the turn the arrive by DS.
-- Cannot make shooting attacks during the turn the arrive by DS.
-- Do not benefit from items/SRs/other effects that prevent them from scattering or reduce their scatter distance.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece
2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid
No to both. Whirlwinds definitely don't need to be cheaper, and Grav Cannons need to be nerfed, NOT Centurions.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Storm Bolters are spitting out more and look to be mildly larger.
I think you should look into Storm Bolters. They're just a twin-barreled version of a standard Bolter. They might look like they use bigger ammunition, but they don't.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Plus we don't need more S4 shooting outside Tacticals. S5 at least lets Terminators have a chance to wound a larger target they would shoot at and charge with fists
We need S5 shooting attacks even less. And being an S4 Assault 2 Weapon does exactly what you apparently want it to do anyway,
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Assault Marines can get Melta Guns when I or someone else incorporates Blood Angels in this fix. My main idea would be not to let Assault Marines access Special Weapons at all. Rather, they get access to all the pistol variants (still at 5 points a piece), and a Jump Pack HQ unlocks them as troops.
Why change them like this? It's unnecessary and doesn't address any problem. Plus Jump Units as Troops Choices is travelling too much into territory Vanilla Marines should not be in.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:However, that's more typing I didn't really want to do.
If you don't want to be doing a lot of typing, then genuinely trying to actually fix a codex isn't for you because it will generally involve a lot of writing (not to mention of lot of identifying problems and reading).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It's a very insignificant add-on that goes a long way to make Assault Marines worth a look. Regarding Terminator Armor giving a Strength boost, you're taking Power Fists more than likely anyway. I've yet to see someone keep a Terminator Captain/Master with their Sword.
A Strength boost for Terminator Armour actually makes sense since it's a larger suit of armour compared to regular Power Armour and, like Power Armour, Terminator Armour is powered (duh). So it is plausible. Also, the fact that it's typical of people to take Power Fists on their Terminator Captain/Chapter Master should not play any role in deciding whether or not a strength boost from Terminator Armour is appropriate.
1. I have every reason to be optimistic. However, I did fix issues contrary to what you say. And I'll explain further on how as I tackle your individual points.
2. You can feel that way about Rending all you want, but TWC and DoS get it as a universal rule for all their melee attacks. It was a neat addition that was removed for no real particular good reason.
3. Iron Hands vehicles are in a tricky situation in that some interpret ALL vehicles and not just Dreadnoughts as getting IWND. So when someone suggested that vehicles just get CT, too, it made all my typing almost pointless but did a great job in conveying what I mean to say.
4. Nobody takes Storm Bolters. NOBODY. Making them Assault 3 definitely doesn't fix the issue, and making them Salvo (for whatever reason people like suggesting) only hurts PA Grey Knights further, AND for those 5 Terminators I'm still better off taking more Tactical Marines if I REALLY want more Bolter shots. OR I could make them mildly unique and make them S5, which is a fix nobody suggests. It makes them hit a little harder at things Terminators want to charge, makes it a neat option for that Captain you modeled with it for some strange reason, and REALLY makes it the middle ground between the Bolter and the Heavy Bolter. Grav and Plasma Pistols are also NOT worth 10 points, that gets me a Melta Gun or a current Combi-Weapon; the convenience of counting as a melee weapon isn't worth the price whatsoever. Plus you're likely taking the LC/PF combo on your HQ or you're keeping your Sergeants cheap. Regarding Blood Angels CT, I was thinking the Descent Of Angels rules + PE in melee for the first round would be...okay. I haven't entirely decided yet. I'm also unsure why you and Traditio oppose TAI gaining Relentless again.
5. I gave my reasoning to another poster regarding Helbrecht and Orbital Bombardment. He's from a crusading FLEET chapter and is their Chapter Master. Not having it doesn't make a lick of sense.
6. While I'm glad you're on board with the Tactical Marine fix (as sometimes the simplest fix to a non-profile problem goes a long way), I already accepted that Bikers don't need to be at minimum of 5 guys unless they're Troops. Also, a mild price increase helps with the rebalancing of your Troop options. I'm giving them that slight price bump as someone that exclusively runs Biker Marines (and I don't even use White Scars CT).
7. You're turning Terminators into Centurions. I made them more unique with that fix to Storm Bolters and being able to take two Heavy Weapons at five men. Terminators don't NEED more durability, they need more offensive output. All you do by increasing their toughness is just getting them ignored entirely (as offensively they're not a threat), instead of killing them when a KP is needed.
8. Jump Unit rules are honestly fine; they just need to be priced appropriately. Ever seen a Decurion Triarch Praetorian in action?
9. Whirlwinds most certainly need to be cheaper. Thunderfire Cannons already outclass them considerably, and they're hardly taken even WITH the buff to Techmarines. As well, if you hit the Grav Cannon too hard, you don't see Devastator Centurions get taken.
10. You can make your defense for the Storm Bolter all you want, but is it going to be taken as is? No. Would it be taken as Assault 3? No.
11. I say change them like that because it makes NO sense that Tactical Marines don't get two special weapons at 10 dudes, and Assault Marines get two special weapons no matter what. Let them have access to Pistol variants for the price I gave, keep the Chainsword profile I gave, and suddenly those Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, and Biker Marines play VERY differently. Most of all, it would be fun.
12. Some things are implied, and other things don't strike you immediately. It was the latter.
13. Terminator Armor increasing strength makes sense, but not in a D6 game. We need to keep Terminators and Centurions distinct from each other, with Centurions being what you want out of Terminators (super durable and slow moving with minor offensive output) and what I imagine them to be (a quick strike out of nowhere that should cripple a squad that turn or the next, for Assault Terminators at least!).
Chapter Tactics fixes
1. Black Templars get Rending in challenges again, because it is stupid they removed it..
2. Clarification that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND. All of them.
3. Salamanders vehicles get bonuses to their flame weapons, because it is stupid they don't.
4. Imperial Fists get clarification that their vehicles get rerolls to hit with Bolter weapons, because they're being used by Imperial Fist Space Marines and it is stupid that hey don't.
Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5
2. Heavy Bolters are Heavy 4
3. Chainswords get rerolls of 1 to wound
4. Combi-Weapons now cost 5 points
5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points
6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points
7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points
HQ fixes
1. Khan is now 150
2. Tigurius is now 175
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. PRETTY sure Helbrecht doesn't have Orbital Bombardment. He now has that
Troop fixes
1. Tactical Marines get to take another Special Weapon at 10 man squads
2. Bikers are always at a minimum of 5 men in a squad and are 22 points a dude now
Elite fixes
1. Tactical Terminators can take two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points, and taking a TH/SS stays the same
Fast Attack fixes
1. None! Assault Marines become mildly better because of a minor fix to Chainswords
Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece
2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid
Oh, and the Battle Demi-Company doesn't give free transports of any kind.
Now you just slowly add Dark Angels and Blood Angels. Done.
Seriously?
...Because its stupid...is your reason why x should be y?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. I have every reason to be optimistic. However, I did fix issues contrary to what you say. And I'll explain further on how as I tackle your individual points.
I have to disagree. I'm not necessarily saying what you've suggested is bad or wrong or are stupid changes, but most don't really address and/or fix an issue. The Storm Bolter argument is a prime example.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 2. You can feel that way about Rending all you want, but TWC and DoS get it as a universal rule for all their melee attacks. It was a neat addition that was removed for no real particular good reason.
And I see no reason to bring it back, either. I disagree with you in the sense that "It was a bad idea to remove it." is not a good enough reason to bring it back.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3. Iron Hands vehicles are in a tricky situation in that some interpret ALL vehicles and not just Dreadnoughts as getting IWND. So when someone suggested that vehicles just get CT, too, it made all my typing almost pointless but did a great job in conveying what I mean to say.
Does it have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule? Yes? Then it gets it. If it doesn't have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule, then it can't technically be an Iron Hands vehicle.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 4. Nobody takes Storm Bolters. NOBODY. Making them Assault 3 definitely doesn't fix the issue, and making them Salvo (for whatever reason people like suggesting) only hurts PA Grey Knights further, AND for those 5 Terminators I'm still better off taking more Tactical Marines if I REALLY want more Bolter shots. OR I could make them mildly unique and make them S5, which is a fix nobody suggests. It makes them hit a little harder at things Terminators want to charge, makes it a neat option for that Captain you modeled with it for some strange reason, and REALLY makes it the middle ground between the Bolter and the Heavy Bolter. Grav and Plasma Pistols are also NOT worth 10 points, that gets me a Melta Gun or a current Combi-Weapon; the convenience of counting as a melee weapon isn't worth the price whatsoever. Plus you're likely taking the LC/PF combo on your HQ or you're keeping your Sergeants cheap. Regarding Blood Angels CT, I was thinking the Descent Of Angels rules + PE in melee for the first round would be...okay. I haven't entirely decided yet. I'm also unsure why you and Traditio oppose TAI gaining Relentless again.
I see Storm Bolters taken all the time when playing against Astartes opponents. And I use them all the time. They're actually really useful. Making them S5 makes no sense because as I said before, they're just a double-barreled Boltgun. If you really want to buff them and make the the 'Middle Ground', then making them AP4 instead may work better.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 5. I gave my reasoning to another poster regarding Helbrecht and Orbital Bombardment. He's from a crusading FLEET chapter and is their Chapter Master. Not having it doesn't make a lick of sense.
All I meant was that he doesn't necessarily need it. But you're right, it makes perfect sense for him to have it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 7. You're turning Terminators into Centurions. I made them more unique with that fix to Storm Bolters and being able to take two Heavy Weapons at five men. Terminators don't NEED more durability, they need more offensive output. All you do by increasing their toughness is just getting them ignored entirely (as offensively they're not a threat), instead of killing them when a KP is needed.
Honestly, my suggestion wasn't terribly well thought out, but they need to be more durable. How does it make sense that they are the same durability as regular Marines in normal Power Armour? It doesn't. So if nothing else, I reckon a boost to Toughness 5 should be a thing with Terminators.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 8. Jump Unit rules are honestly fine; they just need to be priced appropriately. Ever seen a Decurion Triarch Praetorian in action?
Can't say I have.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 9. Whirlwinds most certainly need to be cheaper. Thunderfire Cannons already outclass them considerably, and they're hardly taken even WITH the buff to Techmarines. As well, if you hit the Grav Cannon too hard, you don't see Devastator Centurions get taken.
I think we might have to agree to disagree on the Whirlwinds thing. And maybe, but in any case: Grav Weapons need some sort of nerf.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 10. You can make your defense for the Storm Bolter all you want, but is it going to be taken as is? No. Would it be taken as Assault 3? No.
I can and I will because there's nothing that needs to be fixed with regards to Storm Bolters. And as I said before, I see them get taken all the time. And what's wrong with the current profile? What issue will be fixed by buffing them? Because clearly I'm missing it...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 11. I say change them like that because it makes NO sense that Tactical Marines don't get two special weapons at 10 dudes, and Assault Marines get two special weapons no matter what. Let them have access to Pistol variants for the price I gave, keep the Chainsword profile I gave, and suddenly those Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, and Biker Marines play VERY differently. Most of all, it would be fun.
I can get on board with the Tacticals getting 1x Special Weapon per 5 Models, but I'd be wary of altering the Assault Marines like that. Jump Packs + 2x Meltaguns or something along this lines? That's pretty damn powerful.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 13. Terminator Armor increasing strength makes sense, but not in a D6 game. We need to keep Terminators and Centurions distinct from each other, with Centurions being what you want out of Terminators (super durable and slow moving with minor offensive output) and what I imagine them to be (a quick strike out of nowhere that should cripple a squad that turn or the next, for Assault Terminators at least!).
If you disagree with me about them needing more durability, then I ask you this: What's the point of Terminator Armour? Because from a fluff stand-point, they make you bigger, tougher to kill, and possibly slower (depending on the Marine). From a tabletop standpoint, I don't think the 2+ Armour Save and the 5+ Invulnerable Save quite do the whole durability think justiice.
Martel732 wrote: There is no point to terminator armor. The ia riptide and eldar saw to that.
Honestly that's why I think they should have two wounds, that way they can at least survive a deep strike and then hopefully assault the next turn vs getting wrecked on entry.
Martel732 wrote: There is no point to terminator armor. The ia riptide and eldar saw to that.
Honestly that's why I think they should have two wounds, that way they can at least survive a deep strike and then hopefully assault the next turn vs getting wrecked on entry.
Umm the Riptide IA is st 8 ap2. or 9 if you want it to be. (2 wounds would do nothing against it)
There needs to be a significant change ALL around.
for starters intercept and overwatch should be on an initiative check.
the riptide IA needs to be AP3 on the blast mode and AP2 on the nova mode.
Martel732 wrote: There is no point to terminator armor. The ia riptide and eldar saw to that.
Honestly that's why I think they should have two wounds, that way they can at least survive a deep strike and then hopefully assault the next turn vs getting wrecked on entry.
Umm the Riptide IA is st 8 ap2. or 9 if you want it to be. (2 wounds would do nothing against it)
There needs to be a significant change ALL around.
for starters intercept and overwatch should be on an initiative check.
the riptide IA needs to be AP3 on the blast mode and AP2 on the nova mode.
Oh no I agree riptides are op as hell right now, I'm saying 2 wounds along with needing the amount of AP 2 on the field we have right now
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. I have every reason to be optimistic. However, I did fix issues contrary to what you say. And I'll explain further on how as I tackle your individual points.
I have to disagree. I'm not necessarily saying what you've suggested is bad or wrong or are stupid changes, but most don't really address and/or fix an issue. The Storm Bolter argument is a prime example.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 2. You can feel that way about Rending all you want, but TWC and DoS get it as a universal rule for all their melee attacks. It was a neat addition that was removed for no real particular good reason.
And I see no reason to bring it back, either. I disagree with you in the sense that "It was a bad idea to remove it." is not a good enough reason to bring it back.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3. Iron Hands vehicles are in a tricky situation in that some interpret ALL vehicles and not just Dreadnoughts as getting IWND. So when someone suggested that vehicles just get CT, too, it made all my typing almost pointless but did a great job in conveying what I mean to say.
Does it have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule? Yes? Then it gets it. If it doesn't have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule, then it can't technically be an Iron Hands vehicle.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 4. Nobody takes Storm Bolters. NOBODY. Making them Assault 3 definitely doesn't fix the issue, and making them Salvo (for whatever reason people like suggesting) only hurts PA Grey Knights further, AND for those 5 Terminators I'm still better off taking more Tactical Marines if I REALLY want more Bolter shots. OR I could make them mildly unique and make them S5, which is a fix nobody suggests. It makes them hit a little harder at things Terminators want to charge, makes it a neat option for that Captain you modeled with it for some strange reason, and REALLY makes it the middle ground between the Bolter and the Heavy Bolter. Grav and Plasma Pistols are also NOT worth 10 points, that gets me a Melta Gun or a current Combi-Weapon; the convenience of counting as a melee weapon isn't worth the price whatsoever. Plus you're likely taking the LC/PF combo on your HQ or you're keeping your Sergeants cheap. Regarding Blood Angels CT, I was thinking the Descent Of Angels rules + PE in melee for the first round would be...okay. I haven't entirely decided yet. I'm also unsure why you and Traditio oppose TAI gaining Relentless again.
I see Storm Bolters taken all the time when playing against Astartes opponents. And I use them all the time. They're actually really useful. Making them S5 makes no sense because as I said before, they're just a double-barreled Boltgun. If you really want to buff them and make the the 'Middle Ground', then making them AP4 instead may work better.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 5. I gave my reasoning to another poster regarding Helbrecht and Orbital Bombardment. He's from a crusading FLEET chapter and is their Chapter Master. Not having it doesn't make a lick of sense.
All I meant was that he doesn't necessarily need it. But you're right, it makes perfect sense for him to have it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 7. You're turning Terminators into Centurions. I made them more unique with that fix to Storm Bolters and being able to take two Heavy Weapons at five men. Terminators don't NEED more durability, they need more offensive output. All you do by increasing their toughness is just getting them ignored entirely (as offensively they're not a threat), instead of killing them when a KP is needed.
Honestly, my suggestion wasn't terribly well thought out, but they need to be more durable. How does it make sense that they are the same durability as regular Marines in normal Power Armour? It doesn't. So if nothing else, I reckon a boost to Toughness 5 should be a thing with Terminators.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 8. Jump Unit rules are honestly fine; they just need to be priced appropriately. Ever seen a Decurion Triarch Praetorian in action?
Can't say I have.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 9. Whirlwinds most certainly need to be cheaper. Thunderfire Cannons already outclass them considerably, and they're hardly taken even WITH the buff to Techmarines. As well, if you hit the Grav Cannon too hard, you don't see Devastator Centurions get taken.
I think we might have to agree to disagree on the Whirlwinds thing. And maybe, but in any case: Grav Weapons need some sort of nerf.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 10. You can make your defense for the Storm Bolter all you want, but is it going to be taken as is? No. Would it be taken as Assault 3? No.
I can and I will because there's nothing that needs to be fixed with regards to Storm Bolters. And as I said before, I see them get taken all the time. And what's wrong with the current profile? What issue will be fixed by buffing them? Because clearly I'm missing it...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 11. I say change them like that because it makes NO sense that Tactical Marines don't get two special weapons at 10 dudes, and Assault Marines get two special weapons no matter what. Let them have access to Pistol variants for the price I gave, keep the Chainsword profile I gave, and suddenly those Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, and Biker Marines play VERY differently. Most of all, it would be fun.
I can get on board with the Tacticals getting 1x Special Weapon per 5 Models, but I'd be wary of altering the Assault Marines like that. Jump Packs + 2x Meltaguns or something along this lines? That's pretty damn powerful.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 13. Terminator Armor increasing strength makes sense, but not in a D6 game. We need to keep Terminators and Centurions distinct from each other, with Centurions being what you want out of Terminators (super durable and slow moving with minor offensive output) and what I imagine them to be (a quick strike out of nowhere that should cripple a squad that turn or the next, for Assault Terminators at least!).
If you disagree with me about them needing more durability, then I ask you this: What's the point of Terminator Armour? Because from a fluff stand-point, they make you bigger, tougher to kill, and possibly slower (depending on the Marine). From a tabletop standpoint, I don't think the 2+ Armour Save and the 5+ Invulnerable Save quite do the whole durability think justiice.
1. Then you live near an area where nobody is competitive and taking the Storm Bolter is a-ok. However, actually looking at the darned thing, there's no reason to take it. If you were to do a poll here and ask if the profile of the Storm Bolter is okay, chances are you'll get mostly negative responses. Hell, the Heavy Stubber at BS3 is still doing more!
2. The Black Templars are about that honor garbage, so being mildly better at challenges was something that made sense.
3. Yet the ITC ruled that the Machine Empathy rule gets extended to other vehicles. It's kinda something that should have refinement.
4. I have to ask: WHO is buying the Storm Bolters? If you think they're an okay weapon, I have no clue what to tell you. Pretty much every poster agrees they need a buff. What that buff ends up being will differ, though. I dislike the AP4 idea as that's an advantage largely ignored by cover. Might as well just increase the strength a minor amount.
5. Good, you agree on Helbrecht. Moving on.
6. What's the true core issue with Terminators though? Durability or damage output? They're not the most durable unit for the points, but nobody will argue for them putting out decent damage for the cost. Nobody.
7. Praetorians in the Decurion have T5 3+/4+++. They're two attacks base, and have two options of loadouts. Either they're all taking a AP2 Melee weapon with a S5 AP2 shooting attack, or a S6 Pistol with an AP4 Rending attack melee weapon. They're pretty awesome.
8. Grav Weapons could use minor rebalancing, but a lot of the suggestions are simply outright destroying them instead of fixing them. In the meantime, until there's a middle ground found, making Grav Centurions mildly more expensive helps alleviate the issue.
Regarding Whirlwinds, why are you opposed to the 5 point discount? It certainly makes them look more attractive.
9. The problem is that nobody takes them outside the strangeness that is your area. Mathematically they're straight garbage. On top of that, it makes PAGK's less crappy. Fixing the Psycannon would help them too, but that's a different codex. More importantly, it helps fix Terminators without drastically altering their profile.
10. Which then brings up the question that, if Assault Marines can take Special Weapons, why would I want Tactical Marines? The alteration presented makes each choice (Assault, Tactical, and Biker) play radically differently. That's a good thing.
11. I think of Terminator Armor being harder to penetrate and enabling Deep Strike. If we keep adjusting the toughness of the Terminator, not only would we be stuck with a unit that's still gak offensively, but we'd have to find a way to compensate the Centurion for those of us that want to use them.
The purpose of grav should be to power through tough multi-wound monstrous creatures. The problem is that it accomplishes this by having lots of shots which makes it murder against armored infantry too.
This could be solved by reducing the number of shots and just make it cause extra wounds after wound allocation depending on whether those wounds have been allocated to its preferred target class. Something like:
If a Monstrous Creature or model with the Bulky, Extra Bulky, or Extremely Bulky special rule suffers an unsaved Wound from a weapon with the Graviton special rule, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds unless that Wound has the Instant Death special rule. Models with the Swarms special rule gain Feel No Pain (2+) against Wounds from Graviton weapons.
Pts decreases for both. Now they're like a regular heavy weapons again.
Storm bolters could be improved by adding Sternguard special ammo to the Armoury. Now you have a reason for 24" Assault 2.
Alternatively (or additionally) you could expand the Rapid Fire rules.
Rapid Fire X = X shots to full range, X+1 to half range
Boltgun 24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire 1
Storm Bolter 24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire 2
Heavy Bolter 36" S5 AP4 Heavy 3
The problem with the heavy bolter isn't that its stats are inappropriate. It's that it's an optional upgrade. Make it free. The opportunity cost of not taking a different heavy weapon is already enough. Now you have something to give your budget Tactical and Devastator Squads if you just can't scrounge up enough pts for a heavy and now a lucky bolter marine has a little extra kick.
Terminators need a Terminator Doctrine:
Terminator Doctrine: Affected models can re-roll To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 in the Shooting and Assault Phases of this turn. Affected models in Terminator Squads and Terminator Assault Squads, including any affected models with the Independent Character special rule that have joined those squads, can instead re-roll all failed To Hit and To Wound rolls in the Shooting and Assault Phases of this turn.
Granted by:
Can use once if your army contains at least 1 Terminator Squad, Terminator Assault Squad, Cataphractii Terminator Squad, Vanguard Veteran Squad or Sternguard Veteran Squad; affects all Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, Cataphractii Terminator Squads, Vanguard Veteran Squads, and Sternguard Veteran Squads when used.
Additional use granted if your army has at least 1 1st Company Task Force; affects all 1st Company Task Forces when used.
2 additional uses granted if your army has at least 1 Strike Force Ultra; affects all Strike Force Ultras when used.
Also, Command Squads should have the option to take jump packs.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Then you live near an area where nobody is competitive and taking the Storm Bolter is a-ok. However, actually looking at the darned thing, there's no reason to take it. If you were to do a poll here and ask if the profile of the Storm Bolter is okay, chances are you'll get mostly negative responses. Hell, the Heavy Stubber at BS3 is still doing more!
9. The problem is that nobody takes them outside the strangeness that is your area. Mathematically they're straight garbage. On top of that, it makes PAGK's less crappy. Fixing the Psycannon would help them too, but that's a different codex. More importantly, it helps fix Terminators without drastically altering their profile.
Oh there are people in my area who play competitively (both in terms of how they play and in tournaments) who do run Storm Bolters. This doesn't make my area strange, it just means that people can make them work in a competitive list.
Mathematically, they're not garbage, but a better option would be nice (whether it's a buff to Storm Bolters or a better alternative doesn't matter to me).
Also, if you buff Storm Bolters, you have to consider every case of other versions of the weapon (not that there are many). For example, if you buff Storm Bolters, what buff are you going to make to Dorn's Arrow? Also, you have to consider Heavy Bolters because, depending on what changes are made, the buffs you make may cause Storm Bolters to encroach on Heavy Bolter territory.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 4. I have to ask: WHO is buying the Storm Bolters? If you think they're an okay weapon, I have no clue what to tell you. Pretty much every poster agrees they need a buff. What that buff ends up being will differ, though. I dislike the AP4 idea as that's an advantage largely ignored by cover. Might as well just increase the strength a minor amount.
I think they're an OK weapon. Are they a good weapon? Probably not. Do they need a buff? That's arguable. Are they usable in games? Definitely.
Also, I'd bee keen to actually see this poll be posted. I expect you are right, but there must be some people that agree with me.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 2. The Black Templars are about that honor garbage, so being mildly better at challenges was something that made sense.
The most common way to allow for this is to give them extra attacks. I tend to agree with this as long as it doesn't go over the top. Giving Rending to a model rather than a weapon doesn't seem like the right way to go.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 6. What's the true core issue with Terminators though? Durability or damage output? They're not the most durable unit for the points, but nobody will argue for them putting out decent damage for the cost. Nobody.
7. Praetorians in the Decurion have T5 3+/4+++. They're two attacks base, and have two options of loadouts. Either they're all taking a AP2 Melee weapon with a S5 AP2 shooting attack, or a S6 Pistol with an AP4 Rending attack melee weapon. They're pretty awesome.
10. Which then brings up the question that, if Assault Marines can take Special Weapons, why would I want Tactical Marines? The alteration presented makes each choice (Assault, Tactical, and Biker) play radically differently. That's a good thing.
11. I think of Terminator Armor being harder to penetrate and enabling Deep Strike. If we keep adjusting the toughness of the Terminator, not only would we be stuck with a unit that's still gak offensively, but we'd have to find a way to compensate the Centurion for those of us that want to use them.
I'm not arguing on whether or not they need more fire power, because they do. My point is that models in Terminator Armour need a bit more durability then they have. I think 2 Wounds instead of one needs to happen without a doubt. An increase in Toughness (e.g. a +1 modifier) is also in order, I think. Anything else may be overkill, but not ridiculous.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 8. Grav Weapons could use minor rebalancing, but a lot of the suggestions are simply outright destroying them instead of fixing them. In the meantime, until there's a middle ground found, making Grav Centurions mildly more expensive helps alleviate the issue. Regarding Whirlwinds, why are you opposed to the 5 point discount? It certainly makes them look more attractive.
Grav Weapons definitely need something. Whether that's a re-work or a simple re-balancing is something I'm no expert on.
As for Whirlwinds, I'm not necessarily against it as much as I simply don't see the need for it.
Sorry, there's no way people attending tournaments are purposely buying Storm Bolters. You're either lying or have no clue what competitive 40k looks like.
For the record, buffing the Storm Bolter is just fine without having to touch the Bolter relics everyone has, as those usually have neat little rules to make up for the S4.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Sorry, there's no way people attending tournaments are purposely buying Storm Bolters. You're either lying or have no clue what competitive 40k looks like.
Rule #1, mate. Please remember that. I'm no liar, and I have seen competitive play which has purposefully involved Storm Bolters. As for tournaments, I really can't say since the only tournaments I've attended have been held at and run by my FLGS.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: For the record, buffing the Storm Bolter is just fine without having to touch the Bolter relics everyone has, as those usually have neat little rules to make up for the S4.
And I'm not necessarily saying you have to change them, but if you're buffing and/or changing normal Storm Bolters, buffing and/or changing their unique sister weapons as well as Heavy Bolters is at least worth considering.
On the topic of Terminators, I think W2 XOR T5 probably is in order (and also for SW, BA, DA, GK and Chaos folks in TDA, and maybe TDA-armored Inquisitors too - well, T4 vice T5 for them)
W2 helps not a bit against IA Riptides, but I've gone on record multiple times as saying that the IA needs to be replaced with the cyclic ion raker plus an AP2 nova profile anyway, so that's all I'll say on that. W2 does make the plasma/melta/grav decision a little harder, since meltas would one-shot a T4/W2 Termie. It does help them weather AP2 and Rending weapons better in general, though, and given the numbers Terminators usually come in, it's not that much more awkward than wound-counting on Khorne Dogs and Crisis Suits anyway.
T5 doesn't really help Terminators stand up to the usual anti-TEQ suspects - though it would let IH termies use FNP against meltas and lascannons - but it does let them stand up to bolters, gauss weapons, scatter lasers, etc better.
However, I agree that the big problem that Tactical Terminators have is that they don't hit hard enough. Martel's suggestion of having more heavy weapons helps, and I suggested replacing their storm bolters with heavy bolters at one point, too. Giving them special issue ammo is a possibility too.
jade_angel wrote: On the topic of Terminators, I think W2 XOR T5 probably is in order (and also for SW, BA, DA, GK and Chaos folks in TDA, and maybe TDA-armored Inquisitors too - well, T4 vice T5 for them)
W2 helps not a bit against IA Riptides, but I've gone on record multiple times as saying that the IA needs to be replaced with the cyclic ion raker plus an AP2 nova profile anyway, so that's all I'll say on that. W2 does make the plasma/melta/grav decision a little harder, since meltas would one-shot a T4/W2 Termie. It does help them weather AP2 and Rending weapons better in general, though, and given the numbers Terminators usually come in, it's not that much more awkward than wound-counting on Khorne Dogs and Crisis Suits anyway.
T5 doesn't really help Terminators stand up to the usual anti-TEQ suspects - though it would let IH termies use FNP against meltas and lascannons - but it does let them stand up to bolters, gauss weapons, scatter lasers, etc better.
However, I agree that the big problem that Tactical Terminators have is that they don't hit hard enough. Martel's suggestion of having more heavy weapons helps, and I suggested replacing their storm bolters with heavy bolters at one point, too. Giving them special issue ammo is a possibility too.
To summarize, I think we can all agree that Terminators need a bit more fire power and the durability to let them survive long enough to lay said fire power down.
A T5/W2 Terminator will be survivable enough when combined with the other bonuses of Terminator Armour. T4 is too little. Period. As for the Heavy Bolter suggestion, I think that will only work if the Heavy Bolter became a Salvo weapon (e.g. Salvo 2/4 instead of Heavy 3).
Terminators are Relentless, though (or SnP for Cataphractii), so they could shoot heavy bolters on the move and still charge. Salvo 2/4 would be more useful to Tacticals and Devastators, but would be functionally equivalent to Assault 4 on Termies. Not that having four shots would be a bad thing, of course, though at 36" range, that does start to add up, especially if the Terminators are harder to kill.
I actually think that T5/W2 is too much - either T4/W2 or T5/W1 is probably right for Terminators, unless they're going to be a lot more expensive. Also, where does that leave Centurions, who are T5/W2 already? (And Paladins, but they can be fixed in other ways... W3 or T6?)
jade_angel wrote: I actually think that T5/W2 is too much - either T4/W2 or T5/W1 is probably right for Terminators, unless they're going to be a lot more expensive. Also, where does that leave Centurions, who are T5/W2 already? (And Paladins, but they can be fixed in other ways... W3 or T6?)
Agreed, I think two Wounds at Toughness 4 would be plenty, given that Terminators are a lot more manoeuvrable than Centurions thanks to Deep Strike and Relentless.
I don't think Paladins should be buffed further, as I never thought they should have had higher Toughness and/or Wounds than Deathwing Command Squads etc. in the first place, they should probably just get a little cheaper instead, and/or maybe It Will Not Die at most for added durability.
jade_angel wrote: I actually think that T5/W2 is too much - either T4/W2 or T5/W1 is probably right for Terminators, unless they're going to be a lot more expensive. Also, where does that leave Centurions, who are T5/W2 already? (And Paladins, but they can be fixed in other ways... W3 or T6?)
Agreed, I think two Wounds at Toughness 4 would be plenty, given that Terminators are a lot more manoeuvrable than Centurions thanks to Deep Strike and Relentless. I don't think Paladins should be buffed further, as I never thought they should have had higher Toughness and/or Wounds than Deathwing Command Squads etc. in the first place, they should probably just get a little cheaper instead, and/or maybe It Will Not Die at most for added durability.
Eh not so much more maneuverable since drop pods are a thing.
honestly also need to fix drop pods to ONLY allow space marines in tac armor to avoid a lot of the drop pod abuse.
T5 with 1 wound really wont help much since whatever was shooting at it was probably going to wound it on a 2 anyway (plasma) personally would rather go with a fundamental rules change where invul saves can be taken after other failed saves. (ward save) but that would be a pain.
but since t5 1 wound would help against regular dakka im ok with it.
would also like to fix jump packs and bikes. bikes shouldn't really give you +1 T. if anything it should give you a wound. jump packs could be cool if they could make a swipe at flying units.
jade_angel wrote: I actually think that T5/W2 is too much - either T4/W2 or T5/W1 is probably right for Terminators, unless they're going to be a lot more expensive. Also, where does that leave Centurions, who are T5/W2 already? (And Paladins, but they can be fixed in other ways... W3 or T6?)
Agreed, I think two Wounds at Toughness 4 would be plenty, given that Terminators are a lot more manoeuvrable than Centurions thanks to Deep Strike and Relentless.
I don't think Paladins should be buffed further, as I never thought they should have had higher Toughness and/or Wounds than Deathwing Command Squads etc. in the first place, they should probably just get a little cheaper instead, and/or maybe It Will Not Die at most for added durability.
Eh not so much more maneuverable since drop pods are a thing.
honestly also need to fix drop pods to ONLY allow space marines in tac armor to avoid a lot of the drop pod abuse.
Ah I forgot about that, yeah those needs fixed to make T4 W2 balance them out. If a Rhino can't take Bulky units then neither should a Drop Pod as it's full of harnesses that clearly won't take anything bigger, though allow Dreadnoughts of course since it's the only thing encourages me to keep taking them.
On which note; Dreadnoughts desperately need some changes. I'd say that taking a Power Fist should grant +1 Attack, with a further +1 for a second (on Ironclads etc.), I can understand a rifleman dread having only two from its stubby legs and swinging guns about, but a combat dread needs more. Dreadnought Missile Launcher should also be a Cyclone Missile Launcher, maybe with the option of firing single Flakk missiles, an option for Skyfire on a double auto cannon dread wouldn't go amiss either, allowing Dreadnoughts more flexibility. These would also need to carry over to Chaos, who have equally over-priced walkers.
Desubot wrote: would also like to fix jump packs and bikes. bikes shouldn't really give you +1 T. if anything it should give you a wound.
See I've never thought that the bikes should offer extra protection in the first place; while they have the front shield, it makes you a bigger target (not that size matters in 40k when you can miss an Imperial Knight as easily at point blank range as you would sniping a grot at the limit of your range), so only the speed should offer any protection, which is what Jink saves are for, i.e- they've got enough protection already, so I agree with ditching T5. They also shouldn't be unlockable as Troops as that just makes them a more obvious choice (why would you take tactical marines when you can take faster Toughness 5 bikes with built in guns, Relentless and Jink saves for not much more?)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: "Drop Pods can't carry Terminators because they won't fit. A Dreadnought is fine though!"
What?
A dread also doesn't (for the most part) have squishy bits inside (or maybe they do)
a drop pod is designed for tactical marines to get harnessed in and then dropped from orbit. ( or have specific ones for dreads)
im not sure how centurion or terminator would get into those harnesses. if anything you could put them in but then they would be taking a decent fall damage from when it lands while they tumble around on the way down.
same for all those random IG, Storm troopers, admech, and so on. i know sisters had there own designed ones but these are designed for space marine in power armor. not squishy people, all of them would of broken there legs on impact.
Missiles do need a fix. IMHO, the way to do it for SM/IG is to do what was done with Eldar missiles: free Flakk. Now there's a reason to take them: sheer versatility. They're strictly inferior to lascannons for vehicle/MC busting, and other than Gets Hot, they're strictly inferior to plasma cannons for infantry busting. (Oh, and plasma cannons can blow up transports, too). They're arguably worse than heavy bolters for busting infantry, even.
Flakk missiles aren't exactly impressive, but if you take one weapon for 15 points, and you get something that can half-ass any role you'd care to have a heavy weapon for, that does count for something. Maybe even 10 points, since both frag and krak are unimpressive. You could possibly make the frag missile profile Assault 1 or Salvo 1/1 instead of Heavy 1, too - that would give the missile launcher a role that none of the other heavies, except the grav-cannon, have: shooting on the move. Also, someone might actually fire frag missiles in this case. Usually, it's better to fire krak at any infantry except tightly-bunched super-squishies where you're likely to get more than two hits from each frag missile. (After all, wounding on a 2+, ID and AP are not insignificant, even against Fire Warriors).
The only difference between IoM Flakk and CWE Flakk is that IoM Flakk isn't mandatory - you can choose to not pay for it. CWE also don't get it for free.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (I do think Flakk should be 5ppm or free form IoM - and CWE doesn't need the correction. I just disagree with the argument presented.)
Slayer-Fan123Made - check page 174 of the codex on demi companies. They only get Objective secure and Tactical Flexibility special rules - no free transports.
You only get free transports if you take a Gladius Strike Force (page 112) which is 2 Demi companies AND at least one Auxiliary formations.
Bharring wrote: The only difference between IoM Flakk and CWE Flakk is that IoM Flakk isn't mandatory - you can choose to not pay for it. CWE also don't get it for free.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (I do think Flakk should be 5ppm or free form IoM - and CWE doesn't need the correction. I just disagree with the argument presented.)
I'll have to dig out my Eldar codices when I get home, but I swear the EML didn't change in price (or got cheaper, in some cases) between 6e and 7e, and Flakk just got bolted on the side. However, I could *very* easily be wrong about this - I hardly ever run EMLs except on Dark Reaper Exarchs, so it's not one of those numbers I have committed to memory.
The broader point I was trying to make wasn't really related to whether Eldar MLs were properly costed or not - that's a separate bottle of bees - but rather that including Flakk missiles in IoM missile launchers for the same cost that they have now (so, "free", essentially) would make the missile launcher worth taking, since at 15 points, it's currently marginal, and at 25 points it's doubly so. Incidentally, I think EMLs generally suffer the same problem - being good at nothing in particular - even though plasma missiles are considerably better than frag missiles, and most platforms that can take one are Relentless. (For the points I'd usually rather have a brightlance or a starcannon, or a shuriken cannon for a lot cheaper)
I'll create a new post later tonight using some of the criticisms in this thread, as they made sense (why didn't I just say Vehicles get CT? Beats me). After that is finalized I can get around to fixing the FWCT and characters.
Alright, so here's how it looks so far. I'm definitely wanting to see how Martel feels about the fixes I gave Blood Angels (though to be fair they get better with just access to Vanilla toys).
Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Vehicles gain access to Chapter Tactics
2. If Black Templar Dreadnoughts lose an HP, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack for that turn.
3. Blood Angels get rolled into here. The Descent Of Angels is now part of the Chapter Tactic. Pt. 2 is The Red Thirst, which gives Preferred Enemy in melee. Special units are to be tackled another time
4. Dark Angels get rolled into here. Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Grim Resolve are the Chapter Tactics and special units are to be tackled another time
Weapon and Equipment Fixes:
1. Storm Bolters are S5; I'm sticking with my guns on this one
2. Heavy Bolters are now Salvo 2/4
3. Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers are part of the standard codex
4. Pistol variants and Combi-Weapons are now 5 points
5. Chainswords have rerolls of 1 to wound
6. Grav Weapons only strip HP rather than immobilizing the target as well
7. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless and is now 50 points
8. The Standard Of The Emperor Ascendant is now 50 points
9. Dark and Blood Angel Relics are to be tackled at a later point
HQ Fixes:
1. Khan is now 150 points without his Bike
2. Tigurius is now 175 points
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. Helbrecht now has Orbital Bombardment
5. Azrael has Blind on his Combi-Plasma again, has Orbital Bombardment, and is now 230 points; I am unsure of actually moving him to the HQ slot
6. Belial is now 185 points
7. Asmodai loses Specialist Weapon on his Blades Of Reason, and to be honest I don't know what other fixes would be fitting for him at the moment; I'm open to suggestions
8. Astorath inflicts D3 additional wounds or rolling for penetration if he rolls a 6 to wound or penetrate
9. The Sanguinor's sword now has Rending
10. Tycho has Fleshbane on all his melee attacks
11. Gabriel Seth gets moved here, gains Orbital Bombardment, Artificer Armor, and has Rampage standard instead of it being his Warlord trait, and is now 175 points; his new Warlord trait is yet to be determined
12. Commander Dante has Orbital Bombardment and is now 225 points; his new Warlord trait has yet to be determined and I'm unsure of actually moving him to the HQ slot
13. Jump Pack HQ's can unlock Assault Marines as troops
Troop Fixes:
1. Tactical Marines can buy another Special Weapon at 10 man squads
2. In order to be Troops, Bikers must be at 5 man squads
3. Assault Marines have no access to Special Weapons and have access to all the pistol variants and now pay 2 points for their Jump Packs
Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators have access to the Plasma Cannon now and can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
2. Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws are 30 points now, and to upgrade to the TH/SS is 10 points
Fast Attack Fixes:
1. None
Heavy Support Fixes:
1. All Land Raider variants are 200 points now
2. Devastator Centurions pay 35 points for their Grav Cannon and Amp 3. Whirlwinds are 60 points now
So the main reason that Blood Angels and Dark Angels needed to be incorporated was because of the fact they have several successor Chapters, and needed such toys (like generic Chapter Masters) to show that. Some people think that the Space Wolves need to be thrown into the Vanilla Codex, but they're different enough that I don't think it works.
Make priests elite again for the love of the Emprah.
The ASM nerf is pretty much the only one I disagree with, all other changes seem pretty reasonable. Granted, this pass of fixes was pretty light on DA, no nerfs on my sweet bikers (and you better not nerf them for the Lion's sake!),
Make priests elite again for the love of the Emprah.
It is to differentiate them from Tactical Marines and Biker Marines. Chainswords actually DO something with this fix and they're a single point cheaper (with Jump Packs). On top of that I fixed pistols. I thought it was a decent compromise.
I also said that faction-specific units would be tackled another time, but I agree with your point about Priests whole-heartedly. However, I wouldn't be sure on how to do stats or point costs. It'll happen eventually though.
Make priests elite again for the love of the Emprah.
It is to differentiate them from Tactical Marines and Biker Marines. Chainswords actually DO something with this fix and they're a single point cheaper (with Jump Packs). On top of that I fixed pistols. I thought it was a decent compromise.
I also said that faction-specific units would be tackled another time, but I agree with your point about Priests whole-heartedly. However, I wouldn't be sure on how to do stats or point costs. It'll happen eventually though.
Fair enough if you think pistols will be enough. It's not like two meltaguns are taking over the world anyway.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Vehicles gain access to Chapter Tactics
2. If Black Templar Dreadnoughts lose an HP, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack for that turn.
All Dreadnoughts have 4 Attacks base, so extending that particular Chapter Tactic to them may be a bit overpowered. Also, I don't think all vehicles need Chapter Tactics (not to mention most wouldn't properly benefit from them anyway).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 7. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless and is now 50 points
I think do one or the other, but not both.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: HQ Fixes:
13. Jump Pack HQ's can unlock Assault Marines as troops
I don't think this should be a thing for all Chapters. Restrict it to Blood Angels or something.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Troop Fixes:
2. In order to be Troops, Bikers must be at 5 man squads
I still don't understand this and don't think this should be a thing.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3. Assault Marines have no access to Special Weapons and have access to all the pistol variants and now pay 2 points for their Jump Packs
3 Points is absolutely fine for Jump Packs. As for no Special Weapons, they should still have access to Flamers.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators have access to the Plasma Cannon now and can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
It should be two Heavy Weapons for a 10-Man Squad. Two for a 5-Man is a bit much.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Vehicles gain access to Chapter Tactics
2. If Black Templar Dreadnoughts lose an HP, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack for that turn.
All Dreadnoughts have 4 Attacks base, so extending that particular Chapter Tactic to them may be a bit overpowered. Also, I don't think all vehicles need Chapter Tactics (not to mention most wouldn't properly benefit from them anyway).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 7. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless and is now 50 points
I think do one or the other, but not both.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: HQ Fixes:
13. Jump Pack HQ's can unlock Assault Marines as troops
I don't think this should be a thing for all Chapters. Restrict it to Blood Angels or something.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Troop Fixes:
2. In order to be Troops, Bikers must be at 5 man squads
I still don't understand this and don't think this should be a thing.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3. Assault Marines have no access to Special Weapons and have access to all the pistol variants and now pay 2 points for their Jump Packs
3 Points is absolutely fine for Jump Packs. As for no Special Weapons, they should still have access to Flamers.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators have access to the Plasma Cannon now and can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
It should be two Heavy Weapons for a 10-Man Squad. Two for a 5-Man is a bit much.
1. A Dreadnought getting 6 attacks on the charge is most certainly not overpowered. Have you ever seen ANYONE complain that Carcharodon Astra Dreadnoughts can get Rage? Chances say no. There's also very few Chapter Tactics that vehicles don't gain any benefit. Red Scorpions Dreadnoughts and Raven Guard Dreadnoughts get Chapter Tactics yet have no benefits.
2. Why not both? Relentless doesn't come into play that often (the Bolter part of Combi-Weapons, The Primarch's Wrath, other Relic range weapons) and, otherwise, you're paying 30 points for a 6++ (which only happens for PA Librarians) and the once-per-game 2++. Can you give a single good reason NOT to do both, other than you're uncomfortable with it?
3. Why not? Not all successor Chapters are entirely like their parents. It isn't specific when you buy a Bike for your HQ and all the sudden Bikers are Troops, either.
4. It is to stop extreme MSU Special Weapon spam.
5. 3 points is fine, but I think 16 point Assault Marines as troops is worth play-testing. I also feel that, with the other fixes I made, having access to any Special Weapons differentiates them enough from Bikers and Tacticals.
6. Why is two Heavy Weapons for 5 dudes a bit much? You have to be more reasonable than "I'm not comfortable with the idea". If it breaks the game, actually say HOW.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. A Dreadnought getting 6 attacks on the charge is most certainly not overpowered. Have you ever seen ANYONE complain that Carcharodon Astra Dreadnoughts can get Rage? Chances say no. There's also very few Chapter Tactics that vehicles don't gain any benefit. Red Scorpions Dreadnoughts and Raven Guard Dreadnoughts get Chapter Tactics yet have no benefits.
Fair enough about the chapter Tactics affecting vehicles, but I stand by my words on the Dreadnoughts for Black Templars. I've heard a number of people say that 4 Attacks base on a Dreadnought is strong to the point of arguably being OP (whether it is actually OP has varied slightly between people). Also consider a regular Dreadnought with a Power Fist that has 4 Attacks base: That's 4x S10 AP2 hits at I4. That is undeniably really powerful. Boosting the number of attacks it gets (whether its additions attacks in scenarios it would otherwise never get like with Counter Attack, or additional attacks in general) may not be the best way to go about buffing the attacks.
I have a different suggestion: Make an addition to Black Templar Chapter Tactics that can make melee-orientated Dreadnoughts (of all types) more survivable so they can get their existing attacks off in the first place.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 2. Why not both? Relentless doesn't come into play that often (the Bolter part of Combi-Weapons, The Primarch's Wrath, other Relic range weapons) and, otherwise, you're paying 30 points for a 6++ (which only happens for PA Librarians) and the once-per-game 2++. Can you give a single good reason NOT to do both, other than you're uncomfortable with it?
I simply disagree with your reasoning. I can see the merit for it to be worth 50 points as is without adding Relentless and agree with this points change. However, if you add Relentless in, I think that 50 points is too cheap. 55 points is probably the lowest I'd price it with Relentless chucked in.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3. Why not? Not all successor Chapters are entirely like their parents. It isn't specific when you buy a Bike for your HQ and all the sudden Bikers are Troops, either.
Because there's no need for this rule, and nor does it fix a problem. The only reason I see to implement it is to add flavour to a Chapter and/or its Successor Chapters. I don't disagree with the change per se, but making Assault Squads to be Troops Choices doesn't really fit in fluff-wise.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 6. Why is two Heavy Weapons for 5 dudes a bit much? You have to be more reasonable than "I'm not comfortable with the idea". If it breaks the game, actually say HOW.
For the same reason I think the current iteration of Assault Squads found in the codex should have further restriction on Flamers. An Assault Squad can have up to 2x Flamers, so if you want to spam flamers, you just take 5-Man Squads with 2x Flamers each. This is a little powerful against infantry if you ask me.
The same logic applies to 2x Heavy Weapons for 5-Man Terminator Squads. It would be too easy to spam Heavy Weapons that get to Deep Strike behind your opponent's army and rip them a new one.
I don't think that anyone would complain if Marines would stick to spamming weapons that can be taken by Assault Squads. If ASMs had access to Grav weapons I'd understand this concern well but if spamming flamers and meltas is broken, Sisters are one of the most abusive armies in the game. Short-ranged assault weapons should be used by squads that are designed to get close to use them.
So below I've relisted your list with everything highlighted a few things:
-- Red are things that should be removed;
-- Green are the things that I've changed.
-- Yellow need to be re-worded for clarity.
-- Blue Need some reasoning since they don't appear to address any particular issue and/or explanation is needed as to how exactly it fixes the issue(s).
Spoiler:
Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Vehicles gain access to Chapter Tactics
2. If Black Templar Dreadnoughts lose an HP, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack for that turn.
3. Blood Angels get rolled into here. The Descent Of Angels is now part of the Chapter Tactic. Pt. 2 is The Red Thirst, which gives Preferred Enemy in melee. Special units are to be tackled another time
4. Dark Angels get rolled into here. Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Grim Resolve are the Chapter Tactics and special units are to be tackled another time
Weapon and Equipment Fixes:
1. Storm Bolters are S5; I'm sticking with my guns on this one
2. Heavy Bolters are now Salvo 2/4
3. Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers are part of the standard codex
4. Pistol variants and Combi-Weapons are now 5 points
5. Chainswords have rerolls of 1 to wound.
6. Grav Weapons only strip HP rather than immobilizing the target as well
7. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless and is now 55 points
8. The Standard Of The Emperor Ascendant is now 50 points
9. Dark and Blood Angel Relics are to be tackled at a later point
HQ Fixes:
1. Khan is now 150 points without his Bike
2. Tigurius is now 175 points
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. Helbrecht now has Orbital Bombardment
5. Azrael has Blind on his Combi-Plasma again, has Orbital Bombardment, and is now 230 points; I am unsure of actually moving him to the HQ slot
6. Belial is now 185 points
7. Asmodai loses Specialist Weapon on his Blades Of Reason, and to be honest I don't know what other fixes would be fitting for him at the moment; I'm open to suggestions
8. Astorath inflicts D3 additional wounds or rolling for penetration if he rolls a 6 to wound or penetrate
9. The Sanguinor's sword now has Rending
10. Tycho has Fleshbane on all his melee attacks
11. Gabriel Seth gets moved here, gains Orbital Bombardment, Artificer Armor, and has Rampage standard instead of it being his Warlord trait, and is now 175 points; his new Warlord trait is yet to be determined
12. Commander Dante has Orbital Bombardment and is now 225 points; his new Warlord trait has yet to be determined and I'm unsure of actually moving him to the HQ slot
13. Jump Pack HQ's can unlock Assault Marines as troops
Troop Fixes:
1. Tactical Marines can buy another Special Weapon at 10 man squads.
2. In order to be Troops, Bikers must be at 5 man squads
3. Assault Marines receive 1x Flamer for every 5 Space Marines in the Squad.
Elite Fixes:
1. Terminator Squads have access to the Plasma Cannon.
2. Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws are 30 points per model.
3. For every 5 Terminators in a Terminator Squad, 1 Terminator may take an item from the Heavy Weapons List.
Fast Attack Fixes:
1. None
Heavy Support Fixes:
1. All Land Raider variants are 200 points now
2. Devastator Centurions pay 35 points for their Grav Cannon and Amp 3. Whirlwinds are 60 points now
Regarding the original post:
Chapter Tactics fixes
Agreed on all points. And as Tradio said, just give Chapter Tactics to all vehicles.
Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5
No. They are bolters. Not heavy bolters. They should be modeled as such in the rules. They're not more powerful, they just fire more often. Combi bolters are two bolters strapped together. They work as twin linked. Storm bolters are supposed to be a minor improvement on that, hence whenever the topic of storm bolters comes up, I suggest they should be double rapid fire. Acting literally as two bolters for the price of one. 2 shots at 24". 4 shots at 12". This has the added benefit of making power armoured marines unable to charge after firing a weapon which is bigger than a bolter.
2. Heavy Bolters are Heavy 4
agreed.
3. Chainswords get rerolls of 1 to wound
I was thinking of giving them shred.
4. Combi-Weapons now cost 5 points
Until I started actually using them I would have agreed with you. I've been using them a lot and 10 points feels about right. Any cheaper and I'd be looking to put them everywhere. They're on that lovely 'good but not so cheap that I want to spam them' line.
5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points
No, I agree with those saying 10 points is appropriate. Unlike combi weapons they can be used every turn. Even with the short range and single shot AP2 is worth the cost. We don't need more things in the game that make 2+ saves redundant.
6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points
I play Dark Angels, so I have no idea what this is and cannot comment.
7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points
I play Dark Angels, so I have no idea what this is and cannot comment. I want my 3 sacred standards split back out again, though I'm fine with looking for a different solution to the Standard of Devastation. Salvo 2/4 was clunky.
HQ fixes
I play Dark Angels, so I have no idea what this is and cannot comment. If Helbrecht gets Orbital Bombardment, can Azrael and Dante have it too?
Troop fixes
1. Tactical Marines get to take another Special Weapon at 10 man squads
No. I don't know what heretical marines you've been talking to but around here we follow the Codex Astartes as laid out by Roboute Guilliman. There is no reason why Tactical Marines should change their loadout now after 30 years of it being the same. It's the fluff. Embrace it. If you change this you may as well just say they can have whatever weapons you want because you're deliberately breaking away from the background. Once it's broken there's no point pretending to adhere to it at all.
2. Bikers are always at a minimum of 5 men in a squad and are 22 points a dude now
Agreed on the minimum, especially for 'troops' as discussed later in the thread. My preference would be to remove the 'bikes as troops' crud entirely. Then they can stay as a minimum squad size of 3. They should probably need to take extra bikes before getting the second special weapon too. Can't comment on the price. Mine are 25 points. I don't know if 22 is an increase or a decrease.
Elite fixes
1. Tactical Terminators can take two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
I'm okay with this.
2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points, and taking a TH/SS stays the same
This presumably makes Deathwing 35 points. I'm okay with that so long as I get the old Deathwing Assault (choose to deep strike turn 1 or 2) back.
Fast Attack fixes
1. None! Assault Marines become mildly better because of a minor fix to Chainswords
Related to your wish for 2 special weapons on tactical squads, Assault squads should not be able to take the 2nd special weapon until they have 10 models. I'd argue that they should be able to have power weapons too (probably instead of taking the PP/flamer) but at least we get eviscerators now. I'll make do with those.
Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece
Seems like an unnecessary points reduction to me. Their problem has more to do with 'everyone' playing elite armies than any statline or cost issues. Just needs to be more horde armies in the meta. I could see an argument for them gaining longer range though.
2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid
They're not in my codex, so can't give a great answer but from what I've read on the 'net, I have to say Grav itself needs changing, not the centurions. In fact, Salvo should be unaffected by Relentless. The combination of Salvo and Relentless seems to be the cause of many problems to do with Grav. An alternative would be to retain Salvo and AP2, but change it to wound vs Strength instead of vs Armour Save. Also remove the initial hull damage. Just let it immobilize, then do 1 point of hull damage to an already immobilized vehicle.
Oh, and the Battle Demi-Company doesn't give free transports of any kind.
AGREED. No free stuff for anyone.
"No. I don't know what heretical marines you've been talking to but around here we follow the Codex Astartes as laid out by Roboute Guilliman. There is no reason why Tactical Marines should change their loadout now after 30 years of it being the same. It's the fluff. Embrace it. If you change this you may as well just say they can have whatever weapons you want because you're deliberately breaking away from the background. Once it's broken there's no point pretending to adhere to it at all. "
The codex doesn't work in practice. Feth the fluff. Go with what works. Imperial heavy weapons are garbage and don't synergize with boltguns.
Thanks. I've now actually had time to catch up with the rest of the thread. I see most of my points still needed saying as Slayer-Fan123 is reluctant to see things from the different viewpoints already supplied.
Let me just add a few points in response to the more recent list of changes:
Storm Bolters are Bolters. They use the exact same shells as Bolters. Stop ignoring the fluff. They're S4 because they are Bolters. They fire faster than bolters, they do not fire more powerful shots.
I'm unsure on the fluff for Inferno Pistols. Does anyone outside of Blood Angels actually know how to make them?
There is no way that Assault Marines should ever be troops. If 3 Fast Attack slots isn't enough for you, make an Assault Company formation. Shifting things to troops is the pre-7th edition mindset and the ability to do it with bikes should have already been removed.
I just checked back to my 2nd ed books. Assault Squads had the option for 2 special weapons back then. I therefore support the possibility of adding meltaguns, but do not support removing special weapons altogether. Adding plasma and grav would feel wrong to me based on not being 'assault' weapons.
Agreed that land raiders need to be cheaper. Unsure if they should all be the same value though. Starting with 200 and then adjusting after testing is a fair stance.
Zustiur wrote:Storm Bolters are Bolters. They use the exact same shells as Bolters. Stop ignoring the fluff. They're S4 because they are Bolters. They fire faster than bolters, they do not fire more powerful shots.
Judging from the previous comments in the thread, I doubt that any amount of commenting by any amount of users is going to convince Slayer that they're wrong on this.
Zustiur wrote:I'm unsure on the fluff for Inferno Pistols. Does anyone outside of Blood Angels actually know how to make them?
I honestly don't think this matters. Not that your point is invalid or not worth mentioning or anything like that, but it's more a case of introducing them to the vanilla codex doesn't fulfill any need or fix any issue.
Zustiur wrote:There is no way that Assault Marines should ever be troops. If 3 Fast Attack slots isn't enough for you, make an Assault Company formation. Shifting things to troops is the pre-7th edition mindset and the ability to do it with bikes should have already been removed.
This! 100% this!
Zustiur wrote:I just checked back to my 2nd ed books. Assault Squads had the option for 2 special weapons back then. I therefore support the possibility of adding meltaguns, but do not support removing special weapons altogether. Adding plasma and grav would feel wrong to me based on not being 'assault' weapons.
This is why I understand the inclusion of Flamers in the current codex, but admittedly: it could be expanded upon. Also, I stand by my limitations on Flamers in a previous post of mine.
Martel732 wrote:Stormbolters are useless in the current game. Nowhere does the fluff say they are useless.
200 is still too much for the land raider in 7th ed. I honestly wouldn't even pay 175 for it at this point.
I reckon a compromise of sorts should be made where Land Raiders of all types should now be 200 Points, but have a few additional rules such as Move Through Cover.
At the risk of sounding rude, Dreadnoughts gaining CT: BT is just not even conceivably OP. I don't even know where to start explaining why, because I didn't think anyone would ever make the argument.
FYI Dreadnoughts have chapter tactics and it means approximately nothing. Even in gladius when they can effectively have 2 chapter tactics working at once...doctrine from demi company and iron hands IWND and a free drop pod...they are still not worth their points.
You fix one codex at a time, not a bunch of them at once.
You really should look at them all as a whole otherwise it has the same problems external balance issues.
chaos space marines and marines are similar and should be relatively close. at least similar units.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. A Dreadnought getting 6 attacks on the charge is most certainly not overpowered. Have you ever seen ANYONE complain that Carcharodon Astra Dreadnoughts can get Rage? Chances say no. There's also very few Chapter Tactics that vehicles don't gain any benefit. Red Scorpions Dreadnoughts and Raven Guard Dreadnoughts get Chapter Tactics yet have no benefits.
Fair enough about the chapter Tactics affecting vehicles, but I stand by my words on the Dreadnoughts for Black Templars. I've heard a number of people say that 4 Attacks base on a Dreadnought is strong to the point of arguably being OP (whether it is actually OP has varied slightly between people). Also consider a regular Dreadnought with a Power Fist that has 4 Attacks base: That's 4x S10 AP2 hits at I4. That is undeniably really powerful. Boosting the number of attacks it gets (whether its additions attacks in scenarios it would otherwise never get like with Counter Attack, or additional attacks in general) may not be the best way to go about buffing the attacks.
I have a different suggestion: Make an addition to Black Templar Chapter Tactics that can make melee-orientated Dreadnoughts (of all types) more survivable so they can get their existing attacks off in the first place.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 2. Why not both? Relentless doesn't come into play that often (the Bolter part of Combi-Weapons, The Primarch's Wrath, other Relic range weapons) and, otherwise, you're paying 30 points for a 6++ (which only happens for PA Librarians) and the once-per-game 2++. Can you give a single good reason NOT to do both, other than you're uncomfortable with it?
I simply disagree with your reasoning. I can see the merit for it to be worth 50 points as is without adding Relentless and agree with this points change. However, if you add Relentless in, I think that 50 points is too cheap. 55 points is probably the lowest I'd price it with Relentless chucked in.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3. Why not? Not all successor Chapters are entirely like their parents. It isn't specific when you buy a Bike for your HQ and all the sudden Bikers are Troops, either.
Because there's no need for this rule, and nor does it fix a problem. The only reason I see to implement it is to add flavour to a Chapter and/or its Successor Chapters. I don't disagree with the change per se, but making Assault Squads to be Troops Choices doesn't really fit in fluff-wise.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 6. Why is two Heavy Weapons for 5 dudes a bit much? You have to be more reasonable than "I'm not comfortable with the idea". If it breaks the game, actually say HOW.
For the same reason I think the current iteration of Assault Squads found in the codex should have further restriction on Flamers. An Assault Squad can have up to 2x Flamers, so if you want to spam flamers, you just take 5-Man Squads with 2x Flamers each. This is a little powerful against infantry if you ask me.
The same logic applies to 2x Heavy Weapons for 5-Man Terminator Squads. It would be too easy to spam Heavy Weapons that get to Deep Strike behind your opponent's army and rip them a new one.
1. You've also proven you don't live in a competitive area based off that statement. NOBODY thinks Dreadnoughts getting the 4 attacks base was OP, and in fact it was a necessary change to make them even mediocre in combat if you wanted a melee Dreadnought. As you can see in competitive lists, it still doesn't happen. You also hadn't tackled the part where I said that Carcharodon Astra Dreadnoughts can get Rage as well in specific conditions. They aren't OP, are they?
2. 50 is too cheap? 30-40 gets you Terminator Armor with a Power Weapon and Storm Bolter. You pay for extra suriviability for a turn at that point, and that isn't even close to worth the points. In the previous codex, would you have said The Armor Indominitus was worth 60? Probably not. It wasn't worth 55 either. That is yet what you propose though.
3. Making Bikers a Troop choice makes little sense with Raven Guard, but they can do it in the parent codex. It also absolutely fixes a problem: Assault Marines should be good at capturing objectives. Some people like them more than Tactical Marines or Biker Marines. They weren't OP for Blood Angels to originally use as Troops, and they were only used because they got Special Weapons easier than Tactical Marines. You know, the ones that SHOULD be shooting.
4. Too easy to spam Heavy Weapons? I can get two Stormtalons with two TL Assault Cannons and Skyhammers for 230 points. A Tactical Terminator Squad with two Assault Cannons at 215 points would make it too easy to spam Heavy Weapons after having that info?
Also Assault Marines aren't too powerful with two Flamers. I simply want to remove it so that I can define them a specific role. That's why cheap pistols and a minor buff to the Chainsword make sense.
You fix one codex at a time, not a bunch of them at once.
You really should look at them all as a whole otherwise it has the same problems external balance issues.
chaos space marines and marines are similar and should be relatively close. at least similar units.
You do realize that the undertaking to actually balance that garbage known as the Chaos Space Marine codex is a pretty monolithic task, right?
If you actually like the attempts I'm doing here to create a better internal balance for Codex: Loyalist Scum, I'll gladly post my ideas for fixes for CSM.
Thanks. I've now actually had time to catch up with the rest of the thread. I see most of my points still needed saying as Slayer-Fan123 is reluctant to see things from the different viewpoints already supplied.
Let me just add a few points in response to the more recent list of changes:
Storm Bolters are Bolters. They use the exact same shells as Bolters. Stop ignoring the fluff. They're S4 because they are Bolters. They fire faster than bolters, they do not fire more powerful shots.
I'm unsure on the fluff for Inferno Pistols. Does anyone outside of Blood Angels actually know how to make them?
There is no way that Assault Marines should ever be troops. If 3 Fast Attack slots isn't enough for you, make an Assault Company formation. Shifting things to troops is the pre-7th edition mindset and the ability to do it with bikes should have already been removed.
I just checked back to my 2nd ed books. Assault Squads had the option for 2 special weapons back then. I therefore support the possibility of adding meltaguns, but do not support removing special weapons altogether. Adding plasma and grav would feel wrong to me based on not being 'assault' weapons.
Agreed that land raiders need to be cheaper. Unsure if they should all be the same value though. Starting with 200 and then adjusting after testing is a fair stance.
1. And adding another shot just means I'm still getting more Bolter shots with Tactical Marines and that Storm Bolters still have ZERO synergy with the weapons of Terminators. You can use fluff as a justification for your feelings, but if we REALLY wanted to go down that slippery slope, Marines would have like 3 wounds each and everyone would have a shooting penalty against Eldar units.
2. Unsure of Inferno Pistols, but Hand Flamers are definitely common among other Chapters (Fire Hawks can get them, after all) and both needed to not be 15 points anyway.
3. Except shifting Bikes can still happen. They were also Troops for Blood Angels and nobody cared except that they got more Special Weapons for the price compared to Tacticals, the unit that should be shooting. THAT is something that shouldn't have happened.
4. I will rethink removing Flamers, but if they get Melta Guns too you'd have no reason to use Tactical Marines. Again.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Alright, so here's how it looks so far. I'm definitely wanting to see how Martel feels about the fixes I gave Blood Angels (though to be fair they get better with just access to Vanilla toys).
Chapter Tactics Fixes:
3. Blood Angels get rolled into here. The Descent Of Angels is now part of the Chapter Tactic. Pt. 2 is The Red Thirst, which gives Preferred Enemy in melee. Special units are to be tackled another time
4. Dark Angels get rolled into here. Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Grim Resolve are the Chapter Tactics and special units are to be tackled another time
Troop Fixes:
2. In order to be Troops, Bikers must be at 5 man squads
3. Assault Marines have no access to Special Weapons and have access to all the pistol variants and now pay 2 points for their Jump Packs
Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators have access to the Plasma Cannon now and can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
Most of the Blood Angel and Dark Angle units could be added fairly easily as standard units.
Allow Honour Guard and Command squads to match their commander - eg Captain has a Jump Pack, his command squad can, You take Calgar, he can have a terminator honour guard. (BA Honour Guard and DA Terminator command done). Sanguinary Guard could easily be added into the honour guard option and Raven wing would just need an upgrade to Plasma Talons option on the current command squad.
Black Knights - Allow Venguard to upgrade to bikes with Plasma talons
Baal Predator Weapon options (only) added to the standard predator - Baal engines become a BA only upgrade as part of chapter tactics. Other Lines could also gain something like this eg Raven Guard cloaked Storm Ravens etc.
The DA heavy Landspeeders can slot in as they are, just reword what the Darkshroud does (eg holy relic)
Furioso Dreadnoughts get merged with Ironclades with an upgrade option to Venerable Ironclades. Add Librarian Dreadnought as a HQ
That leaves Death Company & Dreadnought and Deathwing Knights as special units, just like Cruasder squads. The only units I can't see a fit for are the DA flyers now that the new Stormhawk is coming.
I'd leave Flamers (add Meltaguns) in assault squads as they are assault weapons (no grav or plasma) but make them a 1 in 5 men option and have them up against the pistols.
I'd also rather see bikes stopped as a Troop choice and no Assault troops as there are plenty of formations now that can cover that.
2 Heavy Weapons in a 5 man terminator squad makes them devastators, so if you put that option in a Heavy support slot fine, otherwise the 1 in 5 option should stay just like most of the other units (bikes should be 1 in 3/4 due to Attack bikes)
Final point. Almost every chapter is meant to have a Chief Librarian - this set up still prevents 5 of the 9 Legions bloodlines having one (BA, DA, SW & UM only) - they either need a 0-1 upgrade on the librarian for this OR add a chief Librarian option which can be upgrade to one of the 3 named ones who are in the books you'd merge. It's just like BA and DA needed an option for a Chapter master.
You do realize that the undertaking to actually balance that garbage known as the Chaos Space Marine codex is a pretty monolithic task, right? If you actually like the attempts I'm doing here to create a better internal balance for Codex: Loyalist Scum, I'll gladly post my ideas for fixes for CSM.
ScarVet101 wrote: Final point. Almost every chapter is meant to have a Chief Librarian - this set up still prevents 5 of the 9 Legions bloodlines having one (BA, DA, SW & UM only) - they either need a 0-1 upgrade on the librarian for this OR add a chief Librarian option which can be upgrade to one of the 3 named ones who are in the books you'd merge. It's just like BA and DA needed an option for a Chapter master.
Angels of Death has relics that basically allow you to create the Chief Librarians for Iron Hands (Mindforge Stave), White Scars (Mantle of the Stormseer), Imperial Fists (Bones of Osrak) and Salamanders (Tome of Velcona). Stormseer and Velcona give you an extra power and Osrak gives you an extra WC, so they're pseudo ML3 even though they're not cool enough to get true ML3 like the named characters.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. You've also proven you don't live in a competitive area based off that statement. NOBODY thinks Dreadnoughts getting the 4 attacks base was OP, and in fact it was a necessary change to make them even mediocre in combat if you wanted a melee Dreadnought. As you can see in competitive lists, it still doesn't happen. You also hadn't tackled the part where I said that Carcharodon Astra Dreadnoughts can get Rage as well in specific conditions. They aren't OP, are they?
Can you please stop talking about me not living in a competitive area like it's a valid reason to essentially ignore what I'm telling you? The competitive side of the game isn't the only side of this game. You're suggesting a change and I'm simply offering up my opinions and things I know to be fact on the matter based on my experiences. I think it's foolish of you to ignore other people's experiences simply because a given person doesn't play competitively.
As for Carcharodon Astra Dreadnoughts, I'm unfamiliar with them, so I can't comment.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 2. 50 is too cheap? 30-40 gets you Terminator Armor with a Power Weapon and Storm Bolter. You pay for extra suriviability for a turn at that point, and that isn't even close to worth the points. In the previous codex, would you have said The Armor Indominitus was worth 60? Probably not. It wasn't worth 55 either. That is yet what you propose though.
This is very quickly shaping up to be a case of us having to agree to disagree. I personally think 50 Points is too cheap, especially with extra rules added in. You disagree? That's OK. Just as long as you can reasonably justify the change (which to some extent I think you can).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3. Making Bikers a Troop choice makes little sense with Raven Guard, but they can do it in the parent codex. It also absolutely fixes a problem: Assault Marines should be good at capturing objectives. Some people like them more than Tactical Marines or Biker Marines. They weren't OP for Blood Angels to originally use as Troops, and they were only used because they got Special Weapons easier than Tactical Marines. You know, the ones that SHOULD be shooting.
Fair enough. I simply see no need at all for Bikers of any type to be Troops Choices, and I don't think Assault Marine Squads should be Troops Choices outside of Blood Angels. I see no fluff reason to do anything else, and Bikers/Assault Marines being a Troops Choice doesn't seem to fix any issue.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 4. Too easy to spam Heavy Weapons? I can get two Stormtalons with two TL Assault Cannons and Skyhammers for 230 points. A Tactical Terminator Squad with two Assault Cannons at 215 points would make it too easy to spam Heavy Weapons after having that info?
I stand by my words.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also Assault Marines aren't too powerful with two Flamers. I simply want to remove it so that I can define them a specific role. That's why cheap pistols and a minor buff to the Chainsword make sense.
All I meant with the Flamers thing was that they are on the powerful side because of their ability to spam Flamers in 5-Man Squads. I didn't say they were too powerful.
We're discounting your opinion on the Dreadnoughts because it makes no sense. How is getting one extra attack if you take Hull Point damage from Overwatch going to break the game? The Dreadnought will get less hits in than three MANz on the charge (S10 vs S9, but half the hits) if you take Hull Point damage during Overwatch. It's such a non-issue that, as you've noticed, we're having trouble taking you seriously.
On Terminators, they had 2 heavies per 5 in 4th and didn't break the game then, despite being a relatively more powerful unit than now due to less power creep having happened. They're the worst unit in C:SM, 2 heavies per 5 is a start.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: We're discounting your opinion on the Dreadnoughts because it makes no sense. How is getting one extra attack if you take Hull Point damage from Overwatch going to break the game? The Dreadnought will get less hits in than three MANz on the charge (S10 vs S9, but half the hits) if you take Hull Point damage during Overwatch. It's such a non-issue that, as you've noticed, we're having trouble taking you seriously.
Well I don't think they need any extra attacks. I don't understand how that doesn't make sense.
Also: First it "You don't play competitively, therefore your opinion will be discounted." but now it's "You're opinion makes no sense, therefore it will be discounted"? Pick one excuse that actually makes sense and isn't derogatory, and stick with it.
I personally don't see the need to apply this change since it doesn't appear to address and/or fix any issue I know of, and I don't see any good reasoning to add it in. That being said, if the general consensus is that this is a change that should be made (for whatever reason), then I wil cease arguing this point.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: On Terminators, they had 2 heavies per 5 in 4th and didn't break the game then, despite being a relatively more powerful unit than now due to less power creep having happened. They're the worst unit in C:SM, 2 heavies per 5 is a start.
Fair enough. As long as it doesn't break the game, I don't really have any basis to refute this change. Though it s worth noting that you said it worked in 4th Edition whereas we're currently in 7th, so it would have to be play-tested.
Dreadnoughts don't "need" to get this minor buff, but the way Righteous Zeal affects them right now is just pointless; when are you ever losing one Dreadnought in a squadron to Overwatch fire and benefitting from giving the rest of the squadron Rage for a turn?
Honestly, considering your stance on Pistol pricing, the usefulness of Storm Bolters, calling Assault Marines with 2 meltaguns "pretty damn powerful", double heavies on Terminators and Dreadnoughts being OP because they got an attack buff I feel completely justified in claiming that you do not know what you are talking about. Your idea of where the power level that makes a unit good is not coherent with reality.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Honestly, considering your stance on Pistol pricing, the usefulness of Storm Bolters, calling Assault Marines with 2 meltaguns "pretty damn powerful", double heavies on Terminators and Dreadnoughts being OP because they got an attack buff I feel completely justified in claiming that you do not know what you are talking about. Your idea of where the power level that makes a unit good is not coherent with reality.
My opinions may not be coherent with competitive play, and they certainly aren't coherent with your own opinions as well as the opinions of many others, but that doesn't mean that I'm completely and utterly wrong. It also doesn't mean that I have no idea what I'm talking about. It simply means that I have a different view of the situation based on my experiences on the tabletop.
So instead of insulting me, convince me. I'm more than happy to be convinced.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Honestly, considering your stance on Pistol pricing, the usefulness of Storm Bolters, calling Assault Marines with 2 meltaguns "pretty damn powerful", double heavies on Terminators and Dreadnoughts being OP because they got an attack buff I feel completely justified in claiming that you do not know what you are talking about. Your idea of where the power level that makes a unit good is not coherent with reality.
My opinions may not be coherent with competitive play, and they certainly aren't coherent with your own opinions as well as the opinions of many others, but that doesn't mean that I'm completely and utterly wrong. It also doesn't mean that I have no idea what I'm talking about. It simply means that I have a different view of the situation based on my experiences on the tabletop.
So instead of insulting me, convince me. I'm more than happy to be convinced.
Evidence 1: Carcharadon Astra Dreadnoughts can already get Rage, and it's not breaking the game. Even Black Templars Dreadnoughts can already get Rage, it's just difficult to the extreme to get any use out of the Chapter Tactic as it currently stands.
Evidence 2: Terminators with 2 heavy weapons per 5 (technically 2 per squad, they didn't get 4 at 10) didn't break the game during 4th edition. Everything is far more potent these days that the most powerful units of 4th edition, ergo Terminators with 2 heavy weapons per 5 would not break the game.
Evidence 3: Blood Angels already get Meltaguns in Assault Marine squads, and they're not exactly trampling everyone else into the dust. Similarly, Raptors can take Meltaguns as well, and they're not murdering everything in their path.
That's 3 out of 4 mentioned ideas that either already exist in the game or has existed in the past without breaking the game. The conclusion thus is that you're wrong in your assertion that conditional Rage on Dreadnoughts would be OP, wrong in your assertion that Terminators with 2 heavy weapons per 5 models would be OP, and wrong in your fear of Assault Marines with Meltaguns being too strong. I realize that I'm coming across as somewhat of an ass, but many of the things you're taking issue with either already exist in some form or has existed in some form in the past. You're arguing points that area demonstrably untrue.
I think Combi weapons such as Grav or melta warrant their current cost. You get one good shot that can pay off with those weapons.I think the Lascannon and plasma guns could do with a price adjustment down, by about 5 points.
I'd like the option of two specials or heavy weapons for tactical marines, but meh, I can see the logic against it.
The drop pod for 35 points is probably a bit too good. It's resilient and cheap for what it does.
Equipment wise, terminator armour could probably be 20 points and no one would blink an eye.
I do like some of these proposed ideas but would like to add that Salamanders should be able to take Heavy Flamers in thei Tac squads and also get access to hand flamers and inferno pistols.
I saw the suggestion that assault marines should have their access to special weapons taken away?
I disagree. If anything, I think that they should be given access to more special weapons. If it was up to me, assault marines could take four special weapons from this list:
flamers, melta guns, plasma pistols and grav pistols
in the same way that devastators get four heavy weapons.
Space Marines need MASSIVE nerfs across the board and removal of grav weapons and all their insane amounts of flyers. Limit or remove Centurions entirely...and that about fixes them.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Space Marines need MASSIVE nerfs across the board and removal of grav weapons and all their insane amounts of flyers. Limit or remove Centurions entirely...and that about fixes them.
Meanwhile, back in reality, fliers are rarely taken in competitive lists, Centurions in themselves are only ever taken because of Grav-cannons, and most of the units in a vacuum are solidly meh and only become good in a formation or with 27 different allies.
In other words, you correctly identified the Grav-weapons as an issue and then swung and missed so widely you almost bust through a wall and ended up in the Age of Sigmar forums.
Bryan01 wrote: I think Combi weapons such as Grav or melta warrant their current cost. You get one good shot that can pay off with those weapons.I think the Lascannon and plasma guns could do with a price adjustment down, by about 5 points.
I'd like the option of two specials or heavy weapons for tactical marines, but meh, I can see the logic against it.
The drop pod for 35 points is probably a bit too good. It's resilient and cheap for what it does.
Equipment wise, terminator armour could probably be 20 points and no one would blink an eye.
Drop Pods was a special rule before it was a model. An entire army deepstriking for free (minus any heavy equipment) didn't break the game then.
I'd advocate that droppods not score and not give killpoints and be cheap enough for what they are- an alternate method of deployment.
Terminators and Assault marines don't get a discount when they choose not to deepstrike.
Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Vehicles gain access to Chapter Tactics
2. If Black Templar Dreadnoughts lose an HP, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack for that turn.
3. Blood Angels get rolled into here. The Descent Of Angels is now part of the Chapter Tactic. Pt. 2 is The Red Thirst, which gives Preferred Enemy in melee
4. Dark Angels get rolled into here. Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Grim Resolve are the Chapter Tactics
FW Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Raptors CT still has Legendary Marksman. "Strike From The Shadows" functions as the current PDF describes.
2. In addition to what's already listed, Terminators with Star Phantoms CT gain the "Inertial Guidance" special rule that Drop Pods currently possess.
3. Fire Hawks Jump Pack units are now considered Objective Secured. On Wings Of Fire is still the same.
4. Mantis Warriors remove the "Bulky" clause from The Shadow Killers. Mantis Warrior Librarians also know the Divination Primaris inherently.
5. The Carcharodon rule, "Reavers Of Outer Darkness", forces Fear checks to be done on a 3D6. Models with ATSKNF are forced to take a regular Fear test, and Fearless models are forced to take a Fear test but rerolling the first failed one. Everything else is still the same.
6. Red Hunters may choose to use one of the following rules on any turn, but can't choose it again for the rest of the game: Counter Attack, Monster Hunter, Tank Hunter, Hatred, Skyfire, Interceptor, and Fearless. Everyone has Adamantium Will.
7. Executioners gain rerolls of 1 to hit (both range and melee) against units in cover or falling back
8. Astral Claws function as Dark Angels Chapter Tactics, as they already have similar points of interest
Weapon and Equipment Fixes:
1. Storm Bolters are S5; I'm sticking with my guns on this one
2. Heavy Bolters are now Salvo 2/4
3. Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers are part of the standard codex
4. Pistol variants and Combi-Weapons are now 5 points
5. Chainswords have rerolls of 1 to wound
6. Grav Weapons only strip HP rather than immobilizing the target as well
7. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless and is now 50 points
8. The Standard Of The Emperor Ascendant is now 50 points
9. Dark and Blood Angel Relics are to be tackled at a later point
HQ Fixes:
1. Khan is now 150 points without his Bike
2. Tigurius is now 175 points
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. Helbrecht now has Orbital Bombardment
5. Azrael has Blind on his Combi-Plasma again, has Orbital Bombardment, and is now 230 points; I am unsure of actually moving him to the HQ slot
6. Belial is now 185 points
7. Asmodai loses Specialist Weapon on his Blades Of Reason, and to be honest I don't know what other fixes would be fitting for him at the moment; I'm open to suggestions
8. Astorath inflicts D3 additional wounds or rolling for penetration if he rolls a 6 to wound or penetrate
9. The Sanguinor's sword now has Rending
10. Tycho has Fleshbane on all his melee attacks
11. Gabriel Seth gets moved here, gains Orbital Bombardment, Artificer Armor, and has Rampage standard instead of it being his Warlord trait, and is now 175 points; his new Warlord trait is yet to be determined
12. Commander Dante has Orbital Bombardment and is now 225 points; his new Warlord trait has yet to be determined and I'm unsure of actually moving him to the HQ slot
13. Jump Pack HQ's can unlock Assault Marines as troops
FWHQ Fixes:
1. Anton Narvaez is now 150 points
2. Mordaci Blaylock gives all CT: Ultramarines Terminator variants Objective Secured.
3. Tarnus Vale has AP5 on his Chainsword, in addition to the earlier fix to Chainswords.
4. Titus has 4 attacks base and Armoured Ceramite and is now 215 points
5. Malakim has 4 attacks and Orbital Bombardment, along with the Glaive no longer being two-handed. Is now 190 points
6. Vaylund Cal has 4 Wounds and Attacks, Weapon Skill 6, and Initiative 5. Is now 250 points and is a Lord of War
7. Ashmantle has 4 attacks base, not including the extra Power Fist
8. Sevrin Loth is now 185 points
9. Lias is now 190 points
10. Tyberos has Eternal Warrior and is now 205 points
11. Androcles can nominate a unit within his line of sight, and lower their cover save by one, and this is cumulative with the Auspex. Is now 155 points
12. Courbray has a Hand Flamer, and his sword has +1 Strength
13. Alberec counts as having CT: Red Hunters now.
Troop Fixes:
1. Tactical Marines can buy another Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 10 man squads
2. In order to be Troops, Bikers must be at 5 man squads
3. Assault Marines have access to Melta Guns and have access to all the pistol variants
Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators have access to the Plasma Cannon now and can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
2. Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws are 30 points now, and to upgrade to the TH/SS is 10 points
3. Dark Angels CT
Fast Attack Fixes:
1. None
Heavy Support Fixes:
1. All Land Raider variants are 200 points now
2. Devastator Centurions pay 35 points for their Grav Cannon and Amp 3. Whirlwinds are 60 points now
This is mostly my final draft, though it isn't very pretty. I still have yet to really do Chapter-specific units, but those are pretty easy I think (lowering Death Company weapon prices by a smidge, Deathwing Knights becoming 42 points, etc). In the meantime go ahead and review this, and I'll eventually either work on those or getting CSM the fix they should have.
1. I think it is easier just to state everything has Chapter Tactics. When it comes to fixing CSM, I actually don't plan to give legion rules, as they're not as organized. Rather, I like the flexibility of the current codex but the gakky rules need work.
2. That's kinda how decurions work. I'm just trying to think of a third bonus outside the dumb free vehicles rule, but unsure where to go. In the meantime, I'm trying to do what I can for someone just taking a CAD or two (or three!).
3. Glad you agree with that minor fix to Grav weapons. Regarding TSE, it is an autotake because of the ID mechanic. If I were just paying 50 points for EW, I almost would do it every time. The Salamanders got that cool 30 point EW relocation as well. If you add on a Storm Shield (10-15 points), you're just paying a little for AW. That isn't worth increasing the price.
The Iron Hands one also has the balancing point of it becoming less effective.
4. Why is that? Not everyone follows their parent chapter and what they choose to do. There's an Ultramarine successor that uses Jump Packs a lot (think it's Doom Eagles). Sure they could go with either Blood Angels or Raven Guard for representation, but neither of those capture them well.
3. Eh i just really disagree with auto take items. not sure of the sally or iron hand ones but i basically ALWAYS see the shield eternal.
4. while it may be the case that some successor have specific specializations its something that could be added to with there own supplement or sub chapter tactics like FW ones.
That would require someone to go through all the successor chapters that are actually named, and then making sure they can represent them.
OR we just get the general idea for your favorite chapter or your created one. Doom Eagles are Ultramarine successors and don't differentiate from them much outside Jump Pack specialization. They won't be done justice by Blood Angels or Raven Guard OR Fire Hawks Chapter Tactics (though the latter comes close). So the best compromise for ALL our special snowflake chapters is to make sure the option for Jump and Biker troops is there. Seems reasonable to me. We can't give EVERYONE their own supplement, try as we might.
Regarding autotake items...I get it. However, TSE is actually priced appropriately incorporating the bundle of getting AW (and certain chapters get that, so they're paying for a redundant rule). Just because you see it all the time doesn't mean it is a bad thing, especially when priced accordingly.
1. Give Grav weapons the Gets Hot USR 2. Limit the number of psychic disciplines available chapter-wide to 3, selected during army construction
3. Make Venerable Dreadnoughts characters and attachable to units of other Dreadnoughts
4. Make Chainfists 10 pts and reroll wound against GMCs
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: OR we just get the general idea for your favorite chapter or your created one. Doom Eagles are Ultramarine successors and don't differentiate from them much outside Jump Pack specialization. They won't be done justice by Blood Angels or Raven Guard OR Fire Hawks Chapter Tactics (though the latter comes close). So the best compromise for ALL our special snowflake chapters is to make sure the option for Jump and Biker troops is there. Seems reasonable to me. We can't give EVERYONE their own supplement, try as we might.
Wouldn't the option for Demi-Companies of the different types work better for situations like this?
For example, in the case of Biker/Jump desired focuses:
Assault Demi-Company Formation: 1 Captain or Chaplain
0-1 Command Squad
5 squads chosen of any combination from the following list:
- Assault Squad
- Bike Squad
- Centurion Assault Squad
Restrictions" None.
Special Rules:
Outflank
Borne to Fight: If your army contains one or more Assault Demi-companies, you can choose to enact the Assault Doctrine once per game. When the Doctrine is enacted, all models in your army with the Chapter Tactics rule that are part of a Assault Demi-company are affected.
Kept in Reserve: Centurion Assault Squads may take Drop Pods as Dedicated Transports. All units from this Formation must arrive from Deep Strike Reserves or from Outflank. The owning player may choose to reroll the Reserves Roll for any unit in this Formation.
Part of the Chapter: This Formation may be taken as a Core Choice for the Gladius Strike Force, Scarblade Strike Force, Fist of Medusa Strike Force, or Talon Strike Force.
As a Raptors player, I think Lias issodons current price tag is fair. He is a great force multiplier with not much offensive punch bar his pregame trick. I run a tau buffmander in my Tau army who clocks in around the same points as lias and they seem comparable, expensive but great non psychic buffers who pay for their guaranteed abilities.
Lias has THE best Warlord trait stock, does the force multiplication thing VERY well, and actually doesn't do bad offensively. He deserved a slight increase in points, like it or not.
