So I've been wondering about this for a while now, and I'm finally getting around to posting about it.
Age of Sigmar has been out for about a year now, and I'm wondering about how it's doing. How many people regularly play? What is the depth of that play? If Age of Sigmar isn't doing it for you, what are you doing for your fantasy itch?
I started playing Warhammer Fantasy Battles (WHFB) in 2002 with an Empire Knightly Orders army and a slow burn Tomb Kings army (Tomb Kings were responsible for getting me into wargaming of any type, period). I played religiously for the next 13 years. I loved everything about Fantasy. I spent countless hours pouring over the old world and its lore just because I found it so fascinating. The fiction was phenomenal (in my opinion) and I couldn't get enough. The gameplay was equally fascinating. I even enjoyed weathering the storm that was the 7th edition Demons book.
In fantasy, I always felt like I had a chance at winning, and this chance usually came down to player skill. Thinking again of 7th edition when my Tomb Kings were at the bottom of the power heap, I still had great victories over my friend's demons (though I had more than my fair share of losses too). I still smile when I remember when my block of 6 Ushabti hammered into his Bloodthirster, holding him in place so that my Tomb King in chariot and his honor guard could swing around and finish the beast off, allowing me to roll his flank and begin banishing the demons back to chaos. In 8th edition, I had so many games that swung back and forth for the duration of the game, each player getting close to victory before having it snatched from his grasp. Even while playing in the old 'Ard Boyz tournament, with players bringing the toughest, hardest 2500 point lists they could muster, I never felt like the game was broken or unplayable. My Teclis Magic could pound an enemy to dust while he countered with a large block of magically resistant Chaos chosen. So many moments that came down to a gutsy call or a perfect wheeling maneuver. I still get excited about the prospect of those moments.
When the End Times came about, I was ecstatic. The idea of the mortal races of the world trying desperately to stave off the biggest invasion of chaos since the beginning had me from the word go. The return of Nagash, the binding of the winds of magic into the Incarnates, the fall of Marienburg, it all captured me and had me ready for the next phase.
Which turned out to be Age of Sigmar. When AoS released, I worked for Games Workshop as an on-call manager. I loved that job. With the release of AoS, I was almost required to like the game and tout it's awesomeness. Literally overnight, WHFB was gone and in its place stood this new fledgling game. I tried to enjoy it. The setting was so new and had (and still has) so much potential, but it was barely scratched and the background felt so shallow. Gameplay was so radically different that I was scratching my head about how to play this new game. The first few attempts had none of the excitement of the old world for me, and I almost felt like maybe I was doing something wrong.
When I left GW and moved to Colorado Springs, I stopped with AoS. This basically meant that I also stopped with fantasy gaming altogether. No one seems to play 8th edition anymore, and I haven't seen much fantasy gaming going on anywhere.
So, with all that said, I want an honest assessment of the state of the game. The new Orruks have me interested in the game again, but they're expensive and I don't want to drop money on expensive models that will never get used, no matter how pretty they are. Sell me on AoS. How many people regularly play? How enjoyable is that play? Tell me about the battle plans and share some of your favorite moments. I don't want to hear 'AoS is the best, you should totes just try it!!11!' When people try and sell you on a game without flaws it tends to have more than its fair share. I want the good, the bad and the ugly about this game. Why should I drop $300 on a new army? What's in it for me? For the stores, I'd be really interested to know how AoS is selling, but I know that may be asking for quite a lot.
AoS not the ticket? What is then? I've seen Kings of War being played. What's the player base like? What about the 9th age? 8th edition?
I appreciate you taking the time to read all that; I know it was a LOT to take in. I also appreciate any response you may have!
First off, although unintentionally you may be opening a can of worms with this thread. There has already been a thread on the topic of how AoS is doing worldwide and you'll find all types of testimonies there.
The game is exactly the same, just with more battle plans and more new units released. There will be an official point system in a few months, but the core rules haven't changed at all and will not change with the new comp book. If you didn't like AoS at launch, played atleast once and saw it wasn't for you, there is no one near you that wants to play it or you just want to continue playing the old WHFB game then AoS is not for you. "Kings of War" and "The 9th age" offer the gameplay you would be seeking (many people think it is even better than WHFB).
I am not going to write a story about how much I like AoS, just one question though.... why do you need to drop any money on a AoS army? Why don't you just use the army you played with during 7th edition?
As mentioned above, you probably are opening a can of worms, there are a number of threads on this forum regarding this topic already, you are just yelling for the trolls to come out.
CoreCommander wrote: First off, although unintentionally you may be opening a can of worms with this thread. There has already been a thread on the topic of how AoS is doing worldwide and you'll find all types of testimonies there.
The game is exactly the same, just with more battle plans and more new units released. There will be an official point system in a few months, but the core rules haven't changed at all and will not change with the new comp book. If you didn't like AoS at launch, played atleast once and saw it wasn't for you, there is no one near you that wants to play it or you just want to continue playing the old WHFB game then AoS is not for you. "Kings of War" and "The 9th age" offer the gameplay you would be seeking (many people think it is even better than WHFB).
Fair enough. I guess the main thing for me is that I know that since I last played there have been a lot of developments. New battle plans, war scrolls, armies, etc. To me, at launch, I felt like someone had at least glanced at the LoTR rule book during the development of AoS, which imho is no bad thing. I didn't so much swear off AoS for good, but shelved it with plans to look at it again after people have gotten hold of it and started making sense of it. Even new units can change a game as existing mechanics suddenly become more important. Regimental bases and movement isn't so much the game-breaker for me as is epic moments and depth of strategy. I hope that makes sense.
Re-reading my post I can see how it may come across as 'WHFB was the best! AoS sucks! Sell me on it!', which I assure you wasn't my intent. I want to get deep into the game. What's working, what's not, people's favorite parts and moments, and if the things that keep people coming back. I love GW's fantasy, be it on round or square bases. I want to love Age of Sigmar. If I explore it again and find out it's not for me, it's not going to be because The Old World is gone!
The best advice I can give is try out some of the comp systems and see if any work for you. The field has somewhat narrowed these days in that there are a half-dozen or so comps with widespread use. http://www.scrollbuilder.com/ has the points for SCGT and KDV while the house rules for those are on the respective websites (note that SDK is no longer being supported). These are pretty straightforward as comps come (though SCGT has scenarios worth looking at regardless of what you play). Azyr comp is simplified and very easy to get into, while Project Points Cost is more complicated than the above but also has the most granularity.
If you want to get into AoS and you are not on a tight budget, this would be my tutorial (these are the parts I enjoy about AoS and make it worthwhile for me, to answer your question):
1. Buy the 20 euro compendium featuring the "The Gates of Azyr", "Warstorm", "Ghal Maraz" and "Call of Archaon". Buy "Wardens of the Everqueen", "Legends of The Age of Sigmar: Skaven Pestilence" and 'Fury of Gork".
2. Read them. Decide which of these events and warring factions you liked the most and buy the appropriate campaign book.
3. Start building your army of choice. Either buy the units described in the books or have a look at the store and choose the ones that you like the most. Many units have combo synergies between them and this is one of the strongest assets the game presents to the player.
4. Start building/picking/preparing your table and terrain for the first mission of the chosen book.
5. Play out the story, see how it differs from the books and extrapolate from there.
Re-iterating the above is how I've involved myself in AoS. You should expect wild cinematic abilities from the models, plenty of buffs/debuffs, many different scenarios, a lot of optional rules and ultimately unending variety. In short you should get into AoS for the variety it offers.
If the above process makes you want to dive in then go for it.
Retrogamer0001 wrote:Say what you will, the models are absolutely gorgeous.
The Ironjawz are the first full line that's caught my attention. The Slaughterpriests and Blood Reavers are superb sculpts and the rest of the Bloodbound are decent to good, but not really in the TAKE MY MONEY way that the Ironjawz are. The sad thing for GeeDub? They're asking for too much of my money this time around, as I don't really have a use for that delicious $110 maw-krusha If he were $60-70 like the last round of mega fantasy monsters I'd immediately buy three ... but not at this price, not for this game.
godswildcard wrote:How many people regularly play? How enjoyable is that play? Tell me about the battle plans and share some of your favorite moments. I don't want to hear 'AoS is the best, you should totes just try it!!11!' When people try and sell you on a game without flaws it tends to have more than its fair share. I want the good, the bad and the ugly about this game. Why should I drop $300 on a new army? What's in it for me?
I can share my experience, as that's what you seem interested in, less so being convinced or given a guide to giving GW more money.
At this point I've played around 10 games of AOS, a number of which are documented over in Battle Reports. My first outing was my 40k Khorne Daemons (from back in 3-4E) vs buddy's 8E Nurgle Warriors, and it was pretty fun. The game was fast and involved mostly big blobs of fighting, bloodthirster's having 14 wounds was trippy (being used to 10 max for huge things), we got a few rules wrong (in particular Battleshock), and we also immediately house ruled a number of Obviously Dumb Things (mystical terrain, sudden death, measuring from models). My clubmate definitely didn't enjoy it as much as me - he likes strategy; I like rolling dice - and thus far I don't think anyone in my club has played the game besides me. Such as it is.
So I rolled out to a couple events put on by the fledgling AOS club at a different LGS, mostly made up of 40k refugees who didn't really play WHFB for one reason or another. I used my Ogres both times and obliterated both events - the first time to convince them to add some kind of comp beyond just capping wounds, the second time because I legitimately like playing my Ogres, who are great in AOS and sucked in 7E (and were too small to play in 8E). But then that club largely fell quiet, with the most active player somewhat ironically being me.
At this point I've returned to the Daemons and added some new stuff on round bases - units of multiple skull cannons (because that was never a thing in 8E), some allied in Bloodbound to take advantage of AOS synergy - but only really play every 1-2 months, and only when I can line somebody up well beforehand. I'm hoping the AOS dudes put on another event, however I'm guessing that won't happen until GW puts out its 'matched play' points + army building rules this summer. In the meantime I've successfully convinced people to use the SCGT comp for army building and house rules as well, as they're good ones to follow IMO without being too crazy.
On the topic of battleplans, I've played almost none of them, as I've been doing simple objective games picked up from WMH or old 40k. Watch Tower is the only I've done so far, during one of those event days, and it was probably the most fun game of AOS I've had - certainly way better than 8E Watch Tower
Highest level, is AOS fun? Sure ... especially if you come to it wanting to push around neat models, roll dice and have things die for a little while. I'd say a good deal of AOS' engagement for me comes from the dice - seriously, I like rolling dice but am playing a lot of Malifaux recently (i.e. no dice ) - and from being generally goofy as heads explode, bloodthirsters trip and fail 3" charges, and everything dies. Is AOSrewarding? Eh, sorta. Games are very fast and can skew hard with early loses - the ease with which heroes can be slaughtered will always bother me, especially as the attraction of Warhammer has always been heroes for me - but both just makes me more attracted to event days over pickups. At an AOS event I can get 3+ games in in a day, which is sweet and makes the struggle to find the game time and then unpack / game / repack more worth it. Problem? Both events and pickups are hard to come by at this point.
Now, is uncomped AOS fun? Probably for many, but I wouldn't know. I can't make an army in a vacuum, and some of those four pages of rules are obviously not things I really want to do ... so why do it? SCGT has been a gods-send, and I'm quite excited for the official points / scenarios to drop. I was more excited when we heard it was based on SCGT, which turned out untrue, but at least it's been vetted by the same crew.
Finally, should you drop $300 on one of the new AOS armies (Stormcasts, Bloodborn, Fyreslayers, Ironjawz)? I don't think so, but to me neither the game play nor the minis really justify it - though I'm a sucker for paying for minis I like, so maybe that's your thing too. Should you revamp an old WHFB army you weren't playing onto round bases, particularly when the new points arrive and you'll have an idea about what makes an army? Sure, if you'd like to. SCGT and other balancing systems have given me enough guidance to pick away at new armies - I really want to do Skaven up on round bases, after playing them from 6E through 8E, though my actual Skaven army is being used for KOW Modeling for AOS is still a good time, particularly with the freedom from ranking, and the game is a fun enough thing to do with your models. If you can find the opponent.
AoS not the ticket? What is then? I've seen Kings of War being played. What's the player base like? What about the 9th age? 8th edition?
Totally Kings I wish I was more gung-ho for Ninth, but I feel like they took 8E, fixed a few things, then made it needlessly complicated in other ways. And I actually played 8E again recently, and while it was fun - it really was! - it was also a weirdly messy experience after playing Kings for a while, shedding models everywhere, and magic was just as frustrating as it always was.
Thanks for reading this wall if you've gotten this far, and thanks for the original post
Sadly AoS pretty much killed off WHFB in our neck of the woods used to have around half a dozen games going on at any one time at the club now its a game here and there.
To the OP: whatever you do, be sure to take a look at the Start Collecting boxes. GW has put out a decent number of them and they are actually a pretty good deal.
Re-reading my post I can see how it may come across as 'WHFB was the best! AoS sucks! Sell me on it!', which I assure you wasn't my intent.
It's not that so much - your post read as a "I tried it, didn't like it even though I wanted to, I miss WFB' which is fine.
It's more that on here (the internet) you'll get everything from " IT'S THE BEST GAME EVER MADE, THANK YOU GW PLEASE CHARGE MORE!!!" to "IT SUCKS SO BAD, MY MATE SAYS GW WILL GO BUST BY XMAS AND THEY DESERVE IT THEY EXPECT PEOPLE TO PART WITH MONEY, THE NOOBS! HAHAHAHAHAAA!".
AoS isn't even a spiritual successor to WFB, and if you approach it as such you will be disappointed no matter what you do IMO.
Coverage varies massively - it's patchy wherever you go, although from posts on here it seems that it's not doing too badly (it's become more popular over time), but due to the nature of gaming in the US the difficulty may be finding anyone who plays within a reasonable distance of you.
The General's handbook release in summer may well help the situation in the states as it will make PUGs (which as far as I can glean is pretty much the status quo over there) far easier.
In its' present form, AoS is best suited to gaming within a regular group of opponents who all want the same thing out of their games.
And forget trying to pitched battle with it, unless you're using one of the comp systems. It's a game intended to be filled with Bruckheimer moments rather than a knife-edge matching of generalship.
I like it, and I think it's great. But it could be the best game in the world with flawless minis and a Walmart price tag, it doesn't matter if you can't find anyone to play it with.
Look into groups near you, see what's about and go and have a look.
My own interest has been reinvigorated due to the Ironjawz, and I loved reading the Battletome. The models are great, and I'd almost buy them just to build and paint...but price. I think Boss Salvage nailed it in that regard, cost of entry is just too much. We'll see once the new AoS book rolls around, I'm actually really interested in playing again. I think it's a great, multilayered game...with pants on head balance. This is easily solved by talking it over with your opponent or waiting for summer.
Retrogamer0001 wrote:Say what you will, the models are absolutely gorgeous.
The Ironjawz are the first full line that's caught my attention. The Slaughterpriests and Blood Reavers are superb sculpts and the rest of the Bloodbound are decent to good, but not really in the TAKE MY MONEY way that the Ironjawz are. The sad thing for GeeDub? They're asking for too much of my money this time around, as I don't really have a use for that delicious $110 maw-krusha If he were $60-70 like the last round of mega fantasy monsters I'd immediately buy three ... but not at this price, not for this game.
Spoiler:
godswildcard wrote:How many people regularly play? How enjoyable is that play? Tell me about the battle plans and share some of your favorite moments. I don't want to hear 'AoS is the best, you should totes just try it!!11!' When people try and sell you on a game without flaws it tends to have more than its fair share. I want the good, the bad and the ugly about this game. Why should I drop $300 on a new army? What's in it for me?
I can share my experience, as that's what you seem interested in, less so being convinced or given a guide to giving GW more money.
At this point I've played around 10 games of AOS, a number of which are documented over in Battle Reports. My first outing was my 40k Khorne Daemons (from back in 3-4E) vs buddy's 8E Nurgle Warriors, and it was pretty fun. The game was fast and involved mostly big blobs of fighting, bloodthirster's having 14 wounds was trippy (being used to 10 max for huge things), we got a few rules wrong (in particular Battleshock), and we also immediately house ruled a number of Obviously Dumb Things (mystical terrain, sudden death, measuring from models). My clubmate definitely didn't enjoy it as much as me - he likes strategy; I like rolling dice - and thus far I don't think anyone in my club has played the game besides me. Such as it is.
So I rolled out to a couple events put on by the fledgling AOS club at a different LGS, mostly made up of 40k refugees who didn't really play WHFB for one reason or another. I used my Ogres both times and obliterated both events - the first time to convince them to add some kind of comp beyond just capping wounds, the second time because I legitimately like playing my Ogres, who are great in AOS and sucked in 7E (and were too small to play in 8E). But then that club largely fell quiet, with the most active player somewhat ironically being me.
At this point I've returned to the Daemons and added some new stuff on round bases - units of multiple skull cannons (because that was never a thing in 8E), some allied in Bloodbound to take advantage of AOS synergy - but only really play every 1-2 months, and only when I can line somebody up well beforehand. I'm hoping the AOS dudes put on another event, however I'm guessing that won't happen until GW puts out its 'matched play' points + army building rules this summer. In the meantime I've successfully convinced people to use the SCGT comp for army building and house rules as well, as they're good ones to follow IMO without being too crazy.
On the topic of battleplans, I've played almost none of them, as I've been doing simple objective games picked up from WMH or old 40k. Watch Tower is the only I've done so far, during one of those event days, and it was probably the most fun game of AOS I've had - certainly way better than 8E Watch Tower
Highest level, is AOS fun? Sure ... especially if you come to it wanting to push around neat models, roll dice and have things die for a little while. I'd say a good deal of AOS' engagement for me comes from the dice - seriously, I like rolling dice but am playing a lot of Malifaux recently (i.e. no dice ) - and from being generally goofy as heads explode, bloodthirsters trip and fail 3" charges, and everything dies. Is AOSrewarding? Eh, sorta. Games are very fast and can skew hard with early loses - the ease with which heroes can be slaughtered will always bother me, especially as the attraction of Warhammer has always been heroes for me - but both just makes me more attracted to event days over pickups. At an AOS event I can get 3+ games in in a day, which is sweet and makes the struggle to find the game time and then unpack / game / repack more worth it. Problem? Both events and pickups are hard to come by at this point.
Now, is uncomped AOS fun? Probably for many, but I wouldn't know. I can't make an army in a vacuum, and some of those four pages of rules are obviously not things I really want to do ... so why do it? SCGT has been a gods-send, and I'm quite excited for the official points / scenarios to drop. I was more excited when we heard it was based on SCGT, which turned out untrue, but at least it's been vetted by the same crew.
Finally, should you drop $300 on one of the new AOS armies (Stormcasts, Bloodborn, Fyreslayers, Ironjawz)? I don't think so, but to me neither the game play nor the minis really justify it - though I'm a sucker for paying for minis I like, so maybe that's your thing too. Should you revamp an old WHFB army you weren't playing onto round bases, particularly when the new points arrive and you'll have an idea about what makes an army? Sure, if you'd like to. SCGT and other balancing systems have given me enough guidance to pick away at new armies - I really want to do Skaven up on round bases, after playing them from 6E through 8E, though my actual Skaven army is being used for KOW Modeling for AOS is still a good time, particularly with the freedom from ranking, and the game is a fun enough thing to do with your models. If you can find the opponent.
AoS not the ticket? What is then? I've seen Kings of War being played. What's the player base like? What about the 9th age? 8th edition?
Totally Kings I wish I was more gung-ho for Ninth, but I feel like they took 8E, fixed a few things, then made it needlessly complicated in other ways. And I actually played 8E again recently, and while it was fun - it really was! - it was also a weirdly messy experience after playing Kings for a while, shedding models everywhere, and magic was just as frustrating as it always was.
Thanks for reading this wall if you've gotten this far, and thanks for the original post
- Salvage
You've given a good roundup of reasons for and against the game, based on your personal experience. I think it should be very helpful for people.
RoperPG wrote:Look into groups near you, see what's about and go and have a look.
Ben Curry has just started up a site intended to gather together the fractured AOS online groups, including all the localized FB ones: The Grand Alliance. I don't know anything else, but if you want to find games near you I have a suspicion that's a good part of the intent.
godswildcard wrote:AoS not the ticket? What is then? I've seen Kings of War being played. What's the player base like? What about the 9th age? 8th edition?
I meant to add that the answer to 'What Warhammer do I play now?' may be fairly driven by where you live, if you're looking for gaming outside of houses with your mates. AOS is by all accounts doing quite well in the UK (SCGT, The Grand Alliance and all that #ONLYTHEFAITHFUL business is from there), and conversely KOW is not. Flipside, AOS appears to be struggling in the US while KOW is rapidly expanding ... though possibly mostly on the East Coast? I'm not really sure about other regions and KOW, though Lone Wolf down in Texas just had a superb turnout for an early KOW 2.0 GT. As for The 9th Age, it seems particular strong in the US Midwest, along with parts of Europe (where it's from). And 8E? There are certainly people still playing it with friends and family in their basements - me about a month ago too - but I think the last batch of tournaments that game will see are well done at this point.
It will be interesting to see if AOS matched play can convince people to play it up here in the NE. For the last decade or so we've had a really thriving competitive Warhams scene that I've been proud to be a part of. What's left of the GT's are somewhat awkward events where smaller groups of people play different game systems near each other, while drinking and celebrating in the shared experience of playing games. Which while cool is not really the same thing as a multi-day WHFB event with 80+ people in the mix (And I'm not being too nostalgic here, that was like 1 year ago!)
I like how everyone is complaining about cost of entry when I got in for 65 usd getting a start collecting green skins on eBay as for gameplay I honestly have yet to play my first game but all you need is one other person and a campaign idea. My friend and I only play with fully painted and based models, boards, and terrain as I have just got my box I'm still getting it together. This is a narrative game so if your looking for tournament play look for a different game...
Manchester a big city with a population in the local area of 2.55 million gets 16 people on a busy night according to staff, I think that speaks volumes.
My local stores a wasteland, my local groups sworn off gw completely.
I'd say aos has been awesome for everyone except GW, I'm sure ffg is really grateful to aos as is mantic.
Yep manc gets about 12- 16 on a week night another diffrent(mostly) 6-8 on saturday and a diffrent 6-8 on a sunday now, where as pre aos it was lucky to get 6 on a weekday none on a saturday and maybe 6 on sunday( which was beginners). So id say its a massive improvment.
The responses that have been given have been great! Seriously, thanks for taking the time. It's good to have such a wide range of information to pull from, and I appreciate the contributions so far.
@rothrich The Start Collecting boxes are great, in fact I already have tons for Fantasy. What myself and the others were talking about is the cost of getting started with the new Ironjawz. I'm looking forward to that Start Collecting box!
Well I haven't actually played Age of Sigmar.....I've stuck to 8th edition and playing at my house or friends houses.
BUT I can tell you that at my FLGS in my home town they still have people playing 8th and such because the owner really likes it. Not sure how he feels about Age of Sigmar.
But the only reason I'm posting here is I recently moved to a medium/large city 250k is the population. Went to the FLGS here that seems to be the only one that sells GW products.... Walked in and I just asked "Oh hey where's the Fantasy stuff" the girl working there kindly said that it was over in the corner and it was all 25% off. So I walked over to check it out hoping to score some deals! Well....let me tell you there was a pretty small selection (still found something I wanted though and I bought it)
I asked the girl working there if there are any people who play Fantasy around here? She said since AoS has come out most of the player base has vanished. 5 or 6 players still come in every once in a while to play but hard to find games consistently and there are no events.
In a town of 250 000 people only 5 or 6 fantasy players still go to the store? Woe that is some sad news for this guy. Just starting an Empire army after years of playing and collecting Skaven.
I just can't wrap my head around Age of Sigmar, I'd rather play Fantasy...more strategy, more models (hey I'm a skaven player I like models) and I just find the blocked infantry to be fun. Maybe for a quick game here and there its good? The rules don't make me want to play it though...and it seems that way to a lot of people.
Lots of players fell in love with WHFB because of what it was either the setting, the rules, the armies, the play style, block infantry etc because it is different than 40k ruleset or LOTR but GW just took it all away. They put all their eggs in the AoS sigmar basket and it seems like it probably isn't paying off for GW or the community from my experiences anyways.
Yea, I get it, not a lot of old time Fantasy players are down with Age of Sigmar. But what I wonder is where all these nay sayers are coming from when I got into Fantasy a year after 6th started (2001), back when Dakka Dakka was a store that I played at regularly and not just a website. I struggled to find games after my few initial ones, was told that most of the Fantasy players played in private groups after Dakka Dakka shut down, and ended up switching to 40k, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Mordheim and BF:G. All of those were place holders for the elusive game called Warhammer Fantasy.
Sadly, the Fantasy crowd has been non-existant in all of the places I have lived in my adult life (New Hampshire, Georgia, North Carolina, edit: and Colorado) or have been so self inclusive that the idea of a new player seemed to be a foreign concept.
For the first time since I got into Warhammer, all of the stores in my area are having unprecedented sales of Fantasy models and AoS groups are popping up all over the place. I know plenty more than have just been waiting for a points system.
I get that Age of Sigmar will not be for everybody, but for the first time since 6th edition, I have begun rebasing and repainting my High Elves with absolute excitement. As Fantasy players, we brought Age of Sigmar on ourselves (GW definitely didn't help), and the death of Fantasy is partly our fault. Our own groups (not all of them, just a very rough generalization) became toxic and unwelcoming to new players. Besides the amazing people at Dakka who helped me learn to play with 750 point games and went out of their way to give advice on how to grow my army and learn, never did I get that anywhere else.
Shoot, and even after about ten years of pretending that the customer almost doesn't exist, they have begun to listen in earnest and ask third party groups for help.
Before poo-pooing Age of Sigmar, I ask all of you Fantasy veterans, where the hell have you been the last fifteen years of my life in wargaming?
(Hah, I know I will get burnt to a crisp because of this post, but it is how I feel)
We used to have Fantasy Tournaments right here in Western Mass where we'd sell out. We'd have 18 pairings in every tournament, people turned away just because we couldn't find enough tables/not enough room. It was sad to see that decline. Last tournament there were 4 of us total, and after round 2 it was finished.
I'm hoping for a resurgence, whether it's the new Age of Sigmar book or even Kings of War.
Dez wrote: We used to have Fantasy Tournaments right here in Western Mass where we'd sell out. We'd have 18 pairings in every tournament, people turned away just because we couldn't find enough tables/not enough room. It was sad to see that decline. Last tournament there were 4 of us total, and after round 2 it was finished.
I'm hoping for a resurgence, whether it's the new Age of Sigmar book or even Kings of War.
Me too brother, I just want to be able to field my dream army of High Elves I never got to finish before I stopped buying stuff due to lack of people to play and enjoy the game with. Got tons of 40k in, but none of my friends until recently had any interest in playing a ranked up block infantry game. At this point, block units or not, give me a solid balancing mechanism and opponents to use my High Elves against. That's all I have wanted.
Hmm, I may as well chime in and bump up my post count. In the city I used to live in it never took off. It was dead on arrival. People hated it so much that most didn't even give it a chance and those that did (only 3 guys, I think) seemingly abandoned it after a couple of games. The rules and the setting got bashed into the ground as soon as the game was released. It is still the laughing stock of the gaming groups on their respective FB group pages. Those that used to play fantasy have continued on with the 9th age and no new guys have picked up AoS. Can't get much worse than that.
All I can say is that at the GW in Glendale, CA it's doing great. People play all the time and when I came in Sunday there were regulars playing huge battles and at one point, the tables had no 40k just AOS. There are nurgle, dwarf, orruk, Khorne, Stormcast, dark elf and elf/sylvaneth armies that play weekly. Anecdotal I know but it has caught on here beyond just bringing me back to the hobby after ten years. I was a 40k player though so I can't speak to former fantasy players.
Don't play it, it's obvious from your post that you are made for oldhammer/ 9th age/ Kings of War. You can try ofc as it's free but I don't think you'll find what you're looking for.
Also it will be dead in 2, 3 years time. The GW sales were slightly down the year the starter was released despite the 30k box release, it must have sold badly in comparision with whfb starters. Hastings reported that it's doing bad and GW providing points might be a sign of bad sales as well.
Where I live, "let's play AoS" is a running joke. I proposed a game when we were too drunk to play anything more serious and that particular group preffered some bs about racing turtles, despite the fact that evedyone had models at hand.
I say the models are mostly awful. Christmas tree Archaon, fatty sigmarines in gold lycra, Dracoths looking like LEGO juniors horses, power armoured drake and everything so warcraftish. I liked maybe 2 or 3 models and one is coming with Silver Tower.
RoperPG wrote:Look into groups near you, see what's about and go and have a look.
Ben Curry has just started up a site intended to gather together the fractured AOS online groups, including all the localized FB ones: The Grand Alliance. I don't know anything else, but if you want to find games near you I have a suspicion that's a good part of the intent.
godswildcard wrote:AoS not the ticket? What is then? I've seen Kings of War being played. What's the player base like? What about the 9th age? 8th edition?
I meant to add that the answer to 'What Warhammer do I play now?' may be fairly driven by where you live, if you're looking for gaming outside of houses with your mates. AOS is by all accounts doing quite well in the UK (SCGT, The Grand Alliance and all that #ONLYTHEFAITHFUL business is from there), and conversely KOW is not. Flipside, AOS appears to be struggling in the US while KOW is rapidly expanding ... though possibly mostly on the East Coast? I'm not really sure about other regions and KOW, though Lone Wolf down in Texas just had a superb turnout for an early KOW 2.0 GT. As for The 9th Age, it seems particular strong in the US Midwest, along with parts of Europe (where it's from). And 8E? There are certainly people still playing it with friends and family in their basements - me about a month ago too - but I think the last batch of tournaments that game will see are well done at this point.
It will be interesting to see if AOS matched play can convince people to play it up here in the NE. For the last decade or so we've had a really thriving competitive Warhams scene that I've been proud to be a part of. What's left of the GT's are somewhat awkward events where smaller groups of people play different game systems near each other, while drinking and celebrating in the shared experience of playing games. Which while cool is not really the same thing as a multi-day WHFB event with 80+ people in the mix (And I'm not being too nostalgic here, that was like 1 year ago!)
- Salvage[/quote
*** Post adding this in a quote box....witchery!
THIS IS MY REPLY!!!
@OP - what area are you in? Either way, I echo TGA new AoS forum. It's the best of the best and everything we could ever want. On the intro portion there's a tool like other AoS groups have been using to find players. TGA seeks to be the hub for AoS community so connecting you with resources . Only other piece of advice I have is DO NOT let yourself be swayed, either way, by Teh Internuzz, make your own choice.
Actually, From TGA you can find the podcasts and videos which talk about the fluff and starting new in the game. The free AoS app lets you browse through the warscrolls, so you needn't spend a dime at that point if you are unsure. I echo using a comp pack, even if you want to drop or change anything in it, SCGT or Clash but there are others, using your existing models for a trial game. This should be more toward what you once knew in previous Warhammer structures than just putting down models. Last point, don't buy into this urban legends bs about a hypothetical game where someone puts down 100 dragans and blah blah garbage, that gak just does not happen. It just doesn't. Who owns 100 dragons anyway?
Plumbumbarum wrote: Don't play it, it's obvious from your post that you are made for oldhammer/ 9th age/ Kings of War. You can try ofc as it's free but I don't think you'll find what you're looking for.
To better make an informed decision I think you (op) should also have a look at KoW's rules, which are also free (as are the 9th age's ones).
Also it will be dead in 2, 3 years time. The GW sales were slightly down the year the starter was released despite the 30k box release, it must have sold badly in comparision with whfb starters. Hastings reported that it's doing bad and GW providing points might be a sign of bad sales as well.
These are frighteningly dark portents. When AoS is dead in 2-3 years time, 40k may follow in another 2-3 and then GW will announce bankruptcy. I think it would be wise for anyone to bear that in mind before buying anything from GW as he may be dooming his purchases to shell space and oblivion in 6 years in the best possible scenario.
Yeah that's why I'm not even rooting for it to fail, especialy that I want sales to go up next to points release for GW to see that rules = sales. Might still not happen though, there are a lot of other, significant problems with AoS from weird rules to empty fluff.
Family friendly Warhammer might not have been that great idea after all.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Yeah that's why I'm not even rooting for it to fail, especialy that I want sales to go up next to points release for GW to see that rules = sales.
It seems to be the case that many people that exhibit distaste of AoS also wish all the best to GW and hope that somehow they pull themselves up from the mud. This is admirable as it speaks of both a good, critical eye and a kind heart. Ok, some people (quite cynical if I may speak my opinion) may want GW to be prosperous so they can continue to buy their models and play their games, but since you don't like them anyway and I firmly believe that all people are innately good I'm placing you among the good hearted folks!
Might still not happen though, there are a lot of other, significant problems with AoS from weird rules to empty fluff.
The weird rules and lore are still there and are still off-putting to the vast majority. Also both are being build upon with each release so the OP may as well be aware of that.
CoreCommander wrote: I think it would be wise for anyone to bear that in mind before buying anything from GW as he may be dooming his purchases to shell space and oblivion in 6 years in the best possible scenario.
If GW went down (and I don't think that likely any time soon), thew value of your collection will soar on eBay...
If GW went down (and I don't think that likely any time soon), thew value of your collection will soar on eBay...
Eventually. Like when WHFB went down, collections were worth nothing for the first few months of people dumping stock on eBay. It's worth a bit again now (just after I sold off...)
And only if it isn't resurrected at a reasonable price by someone with business acumen.
CoreCommander wrote: I think it would be wise for anyone to bear that in mind before buying anything from GW as he may be dooming his purchases to shell space and oblivion in 6 years in the best possible scenario.
If GW went down (and I don't think that likely any time soon), thew value of your collection will soar on eBay...
Some of it may. The majority of it - grey plastic glued space marines - would be 2 a penny. The vast majority of GW stuff carries no value.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Before poo-pooing Age of Sigmar, I ask all of you Fantasy veterans, where the hell have you been the last fifteen years of my life in wargaming?
Since you asked
[1995 (CO) - Scrapped together money and bought the WHFB 4E box, beginning 21 years of Fantasy Battles ]
2001-2002 (VA) - Played 40k 3E with brothers and friends (and Eldar girlfriend ); became more comfortable with LGS play; had earlier built up 500 points of Night Goblins for WHFB 6E to have them all chain panic off the board in the first game, prompting me to give Fantasy a break as I headed off to college next year.
2002-2006 (VA) - Played a little 40k 4E during college, but biggest hobby project was building an Ogres army when OK were released; 7E came out that summer, around the time I moved north.
2006-2008 (PA) - Discovered a thriving gaming group and played a lot of 40k, with APOC proving to be 40k at its best; good friend and I push back into WHFB 7E, slapping each other around but otherwise having few opponents amongst all the grimdark futurists; 40k 5E came out that summer, around the time I moved north.
2008-2013 (NY) - Sick of 40k's ever-increasing competitiveness, I am overjoyed to find a thriving fantasy club in my new city! Played a lot of 7E, including campaigns and my first GT (with Ogres at the tail end of the edition - i.e. I got wrecked and it wasn't entirely my fault ); 8E came out summer of 2010, and first games are tenuous steps into a strange, extremely random world ... We (and the NE GT scene collectively) apply a number of band-aids to the edition, and then played a lot of 8E, including a number of GT appearances with permutations of my Skaven army (none doing all that spectacularly ). I suffer some serious fatigue at the frustrations of playing Skaven + 8E and need a break.
2013-2014 (NY) - Played WMH for a year, crushing all before the might of my Xtremely Red Skorne; became very tired of fighting Khador and Menoth week after week (several players, same two factions), continued work on WHFB dream army: Tzeentch Daemons!
2014-2015 (NY) - Returned to 8E in earnest, embracing the Yahtzeehammer with Tzeentch at my back (AS IF ); after two years of building and painting, the army is finally brought up to strength, where I confirm that it's really not very good, but I've come to terms with the limitations of 8E and perhaps WHFB in general. The End Times begin, and my club's hopes for 9E begin to crumble.
2015 (NY) - I see the writing on the wall around Jan 2015 and begin the grieving process for WHFB; many others (in my club, here on Dakka, etc) hold out hope until the summer, when AOS is presented amidst the slaughtered remains of a much older, beloved game. Y'all lose your minds and then your motivation; I share in the languishing. My club splinters, with most players preoccupying themselves with family matters (new baby girls had been popping up over the last few years) or poking at new games. The couple serious tournament goers play out the remaining 8E GTs and do very well for themselves, while the majority of us don't play anything. I buy an embarrassing amount of Malifaux, which I've only now painted any of I play some of that game, some AOS (go Ogres go!), but in general 2015 is a bad year for me, for hobbying, for relationships, for being alive. It finally crashes to a close (with my fiancee locked in a hotel bathroom in Queens, crying and miserable - End Times? Fakk you, GeeDub).
2016 (NY) - Back to life with a vengeance. Played a lot of Malifaux, a little AOS, and started playing KOW. Scrollbuilder and Easyarmy spark my list-building mind and I start churning out army concepts for AOS + KOW, some of which I've already bought way too many models for Painting and building output has already outstripped 2015 (which wasn't hard, admittedly), with a lot more planned as my first multi-based KOW army gains frightening momentum, and my Skaven are looking to be overhauled yet again , but this time for a game where they can't just blow themselves up every three matches
Mostly missed this thread due to lack of wi-if recently - but in a quick answer to the thread title:
It was off to a rocky start but has improved massively since release and with the General's Handbook and WHQ on the horizon the future looks very promising indeed.
It's my favourite game at the moment, and I am constantly motivated to pick up new projects which is definitely it's big selling point.
After seeing the coverage of SCGT I now want to get into competitive AoS too and will be going to the Bristol Smash in June as my first ever tourney (come say hi to me if you are there).
I feel like, in the last year, we've learned a few things about marketing war games that we could have guessed, but that no one had proved, before.
The first, is that players have grown to expect the use of points to balance games. This is true to the extent that we're a bit lost without them, and will invent our own point systems if we have to. While I really liked the idea that you could never have an over- or under-costed unit without points, its simply too alien to be adopted by most players, and cuts out an enjoyable activity for sizable portion of the player base. (That is, designing lists) As a result, its been a bit like when Microsoft put all of its energy into the "Kinect" for X-box, and kept promoting it and pushing it long after the player base had rejected it - I see the General's Compendium as something like when Microsoft finally offered an Xbox One that didn't come with the Kinect. Its an acceptance that, even though we the designers think this is really cool, we also would like our product to be successful.
Second, for some people there is nothing silly or just-for-fun about war gaming. It is a serious endeavor, intended as a test of skill. As a result, attempts to codify silly behavior into game rules (IE: dancing, mustache growing, pretending to ride a horse) will automatically exclude a certain percentage of your customer base from playing your game. I cannot overstate what a sin this is for some people - it will draw wrath such that podcasts will still be mocking it long after you've stopped doing it. Sure, you can just say "well, then ignore that rule if you don't like it so much." But, the kind of person who wouldn't play a game that requires them to pretend to ride a horse to gain a tactical advantage, is exactly the kind of person who also lives and dies by playing a game by the rules. They came to be challenged and win, and they view the rules as the structure within which to do that, not a variable to be changed as players see fit.
Beyond that, I think AoS has found an audience with people who like it for what it is, even with its at times ill-defined fluff and anti-competitive play approach. Hopefully, the inclusion of points and the end of "silly" rules will bring back in some of those left out in the cold by the original release, so that AoS will have a future.
Well for me, Age of Sigmar, is very shallow and boring. I have basically gave up on it after my initial purchase of the box set. I got tired of Marines, Marines and more Fantasy Marines. Especially the prices that GW was asking for me to buy. I am not paying $100 for books on fluff.
Only reason I came back was because it seemed GW was changing in 2016. So in January I guess you can say I came back and started buying again. Prices were what I would consider fair and justify in buying.
Then I thought GW hit the home run with the Alliance books. I bought more minis. Sadly what I am seeing now is GW just trying to get rid of stock and the new stuff for AoS is still expensive and no deals for them.
Still, not looking a gift horse in the mouth, I bought a few Start Collecting boxes and my interest in AoS is I am excited for it now. Sadly it's still bland and boring since I still will not buy a book for $100 so I don't know if AoS is bland or not. Not my job to get interested into the fluff. That falls on GW hands.
While they got me interested in buying some minis and spending money, it just seems I am buying Fantasy minis and hardly anything AoS minis.
I almost bought everything for the new Orrucks though. I think that looks like a grand slam. Sadly I just lost my job so I couldn't buy any of the minis that I finally got interested in.
No one plays AoS here. For them it's not a real game and no interest for it, so I just collect and model and paint even slower.
I was not sure at first, but over time, I'm starting to enjoy it more and more. I like the Stormcast at the start, but I feel like they need more depth, which came overtime.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Yeah that's why I'm not even rooting for it to fail, especialy that I want sales to go up next to points release for GW to see that rules = sales.
It seems to be the case that many people that exhibit distaste of AoS also wish all the best to GW and hope that somehow they pull themselves up from the mud. This is admirable as it speaks of both a good, critical eye and a kind heart. Ok, some people (quite cynical if I may speak my opinion) may want GW to be prosperous so they can continue to buy their models and play their games, but since you don't like them anyway and I firmly believe that all people are innately good I'm placing you among the good hearted folks!
Might still not happen though, there are a lot of other, significant problems with AoS from weird rules to empty fluff.
The weird rules and lore are still there and are still off-putting to the vast majority. Also both are being build upon with each release so the OP may as well be aware of that.
Oh yes I am good hearted, tried to fight it all my life but failed I blame my parents.
I want GW to live because I want old fantasy models avilable and 40k ones though, but I also think it's their games and fluff and wouldn't like to see them bankrupt even if there was not a single model or game I like anymore. I'd just move on, maybe deep down hoping for AoS in particular to bite the dust and me dance on its grave heh. Though truth be told, unlike some AoS fans who expressed how happy they are that whfb is dead because they didn't like this or that, I don't think it would be something actualy good, AoS being discontinued because there is a playerbase created and it's always a dick move especialy given the prices and effort required. It would be pure schadenfreude and short lived heh, the right way to fix it all would be to bring back whfb and keep AoS, though I would fear GW ruining the former atm.
What I'd like to see is AoS 2.0, just as simple and accesible but with some mechanics to make it a deeper game.
Well if my purchase is anything to go by it is not going good.
There use to be alot of local armies, full 3k points worth. Now it is down to people using old models and a 1 or 2 time purchase. There is no reason to buy more then 1 box of anything since it is bring what ever.
I seen alot of games go the way of the dodo because there was never a reason to buy more then 1 box of ANYTHING. I see some game play here and there but no new buys. Doesn't matter how many people play if no one wants to buy any of the models and if they do they buy 1 then done for months.
I use to buy 2 core 1 hero and a special or a rare every month. Now I think I bought... archaon since ....October.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Before poo-pooing Age of Sigmar, I ask all of you Fantasy veterans, where the hell have you been the last fifteen years of my life in wargaming?
Since you asked
[1995 (CO) - Scrapped together money and bought the WHFB 4E box, beginning 21 years of Fantasy Battles ]
2001-2002 (VA) - Played 40k 3E with brothers and friends (and Eldar girlfriend ); became more comfortable with LGS play; had earlier built up 500 points of Night Goblins for WHFB 6E to have them all chain panic off the board in the first game, prompting me to give Fantasy a break as I headed off to college next year.
2002-2006 (VA) - Played a little 40k 4E during college, but biggest hobby project was building an Ogres army when OK were released; 7E came out that summer, around the time I moved north.
2006-2008 (PA) - Discovered a thriving gaming group and played a lot of 40k, with APOC proving to be 40k at its best; good friend and I push back into WHFB 7E, slapping each other around but otherwise having few opponents amongst all the grimdark futurists; 40k 5E came out that summer, around the time I moved north.
2008-2013 (NY) - Sick of 40k's ever-increasing competitiveness, I am overjoyed to find a thriving fantasy club in my new city! Played a lot of 7E, including campaigns and my first GT (with Ogres at the tail end of the edition - i.e. I got wrecked and it wasn't entirely my fault ); 8E came out summer of 2010, and first games are tenuous steps into a strange, extremely random world ... We (and the NE GT scene collectively) apply a number of band-aids to the edition, and then played a lot of 8E, including a number of GT appearances with permutations of my Skaven army (none doing all that spectacularly ). I suffer some serious fatigue at the frustrations of playing Skaven + 8E and need a break.
2013-2014 (NY) - Played WMH for a year, crushing all before the might of my Xtremely Red Skorne; became very tired of fighting Khador and Menoth week after week (several players, same two factions), continued work on WHFB dream army: Tzeentch Daemons!
2014-2015 (NY) - Returned to 8E in earnest, embracing the Yahtzeehammer with Tzeentch at my back (AS IF ); after two years of building and painting, the army is finally brought up to strength, where I confirm that it's really not very good, but I've come to terms with the limitations of 8E and perhaps WHFB in general. The End Times begin, and my club's hopes for 9E begin to crumble.
2015 (NY) - I see the writing on the wall around Jan 2015 and begin the grieving process for WHFB; many others (in my club, here on Dakka, etc) hold out hope until the summer, when AOS is presented amidst the slaughtered remains of a much older, beloved game. Y'all lose your minds and then your motivation; I share in the languishing. My club splinters, with most players preoccupying themselves with family matters (new baby girls had been popping up over the last few years) or poking at new games. The couple serious tournament goers play out the remaining 8E GTs and do very well for themselves, while the majority of us don't play anything. I buy an embarrassing amount of Malifaux, which I've only now painted any of I play some of that game, some AOS (go Ogres go!), but in general 2015 is a bad year for me, for hobbying, for relationships, for being alive. It finally crashes to a close (with my fiancee locked in a hotel bathroom in Queens, crying and miserable - End Times? Fakk you, GeeDub).
2016 (NY) - Back to life with a vengeance. Played a lot of Malifaux, a little AOS, and started playing KOW. Scrollbuilder and Easyarmy spark my list-building mind and I start churning out army concepts for AOS + KOW, some of which I've already bought way too many models for Painting and building output has already outstripped 2015 (which wasn't hard, admittedly), with a lot more planned as my first multi-based KOW army gains frightening momentum, and my Skaven are looking to be overhauled yet again , but this time for a game where they can't just blow themselves up every three matches
- Salvage
Hah, absolutely great answer. Wished I would have lived in your area! Now that Age of Sigmar is picking up steam, I have been working less and less on my Malifaux and Warmachine. Went to a Malifaux tournament last weekend (Perdita and the family crushed it haha), and spent the last two years teaching guys how to play Warmachine and Hordes.
Oggthrok wrote: I feel like, in the last year, we've learned a few things about marketing war games that we could have guessed, but that no one had proved, before.
Spoiler:
The first, is that players have grown to expect the use of points to balance games. This is true to the extent that we're a bit lost without them, and will invent our own point systems if we have to. While I really liked the idea that you could never have an over- or under-costed unit without points, its simply too alien to be adopted by most players, and cuts out an enjoyable activity for sizable portion of the player base. (That is, designing lists) As a result, its been a bit like when Microsoft put all of its energy into the "Kinect" for X-box, and kept promoting it and pushing it long after the player base had rejected it - I see the General's Compendium as something like when Microsoft finally offered an Xbox One that didn't come with the Kinect. Its an acceptance that, even though we the designers think this is really cool, we also would like our product to be successful.
Second, for some people there is nothing silly or just-for-fun about war gaming. It is a serious endeavor, intended as a test of skill. As a result, attempts to codify silly behavior into game rules (IE: dancing, mustache growing, pretending to ride a horse) will automatically exclude a certain percentage of your customer base from playing your game. I cannot overstate what a sin this is for some people - it will draw wrath such that podcasts will still be mocking it long after you've stopped doing it. Sure, you can just say "well, then ignore that rule if you don't like it so much." But, the kind of person who wouldn't play a game that requires them to pretend to ride a horse to gain a tactical advantage, is exactly the kind of person who also lives and dies by playing a game by the rules. They came to be challenged and win, and they view the rules as the structure within which to do that, not a variable to be changed as players see fit.
Beyond that, I think AoS has found an audience with people who like it for what it is, even with its at times ill-defined fluff and anti-competitive play approach. Hopefully, the inclusion of points and the end of "silly" rules will bring back in some of those left out in the cold by the original release, so that AoS will have a future.
I agree with a lot of your points.
There are different themes in war gaming, one is simulation/game, another is competition/narration, and others. If people don't like competition, they won't be attracted to a competitive game, and vice versa. The mistake GW made was to suddenly switch from one style of game to a very different one.
People like different games for different reasons. A number of users have condemned AoS for being only "an excuse to push models around while rolling lots of dice." But that's what plenty of people want to do, so what's the problem?
Kilkrazy wrote:Not wanting to be anti-AoS as such, but there are other games in the world, that can be played casually and/or competitively.
Perhaps it's time to give up GW altogether and do something more worthwhile.
I've been enjoying Guild Ball and Bushido recently. Both lots of fun and played with between 6 models (GB) and 10 (Bushido). I also found out that I love using character cards!
Just realised to you didn't specifically state skirmish games. Still, I stand by choices
hobojebus wrote:
Manchester a big city with a population in the local area of 2.55 million gets 16 people on a busy night according to staff, I think that speaks volumes.
My local stores a wasteland, my local groups sworn off gw completely.
I'd say aos has been awesome for everyone except GW, I'm sure ffg is really grateful to aos as is mantic.
Only 16 players out of a potential 2.55 million?!
I'm all for cherry picking data to suit my point of view but come on, that's just silly.
There are about 260 people in my office, but I'm the only one that plays Guild Ball. It must be a failure.
Speaking as someone who deals with second hand GW models everyday, this is simply not true.
The bulk of it really doesn't carry much value - how much do you get for monopose plastic dwarfs that are poly cemented onto square bases? Or badly painted space marines?
A couple of years ago, they'd be snapped up, but I just can't shift them these days.
There's always some gold, like long OOP metal bits, but I've found in general most gamers dont seem to value used plastic.
Kilkrazy wrote:Not wanting to be anti-AoS as such, but there are other games in the world, that can be played casually and/or competitively.
Perhaps it's time to give up GW altogether and do something more worthwhile.
I've been enjoying Guild Ball and Bushido recently. Both lots of fun and played with between 6 models (GB) and 10 (Bushido). I also found out that I love using character cards!
Just realised to you didn't specifically state skirmish games. Still, I stand by choices ...
...
Skirmish games are what AoS is more about, I think a lot of AoS fans actively dislike large scale war games with formations of troops in ranks and so on.
Kilkrazy wrote:Not wanting to be anti-AoS as such, but there are other games in the world, that can be played casually and/or competitively.
Perhaps it's time to give up GW altogether and do something more worthwhile.
I've been enjoying Guild Ball and Bushido recently. Both lots of fun and played with between 6 models (GB) and 10 (Bushido). I also found out that I love using character cards!
Just realised to you didn't specifically state skirmish games. Still, I stand by choices
hobojebus wrote:
Manchester a big city with a population in the local area of 2.55 million gets 16 people on a busy night according to staff, I think that speaks volumes.
My local stores a wasteland, my local groups sworn off gw completely.
I'd say aos has been awesome for everyone except GW, I'm sure ffg is really grateful to aos as is mantic.
Only 16 players out of a potential 2.55 million?!
I'm all for cherry picking data to suit my point of view but come on, that's just silly.
There are about 260 people in my office, but I'm the only one that plays Guild Ball. It must be a failure.
You've had someone else confirm that number of players in this thread who lives in Manchester, are you calling the GW staffer a liar? do you doubt the governments population data?
hobojebus wrote: You've had someone else confirm that number of players in this thread who lives in Manchester, are you calling the GW staffer a liar? do you doubt the governments population data?
What am i misrepresenting?
I'm not familiar with Manchester, but it looks like a reasonably large place, as with most larger cities, there's going to be various places people go to game. Other shops, clubs or at home being the big ones. They can also buy their product from other places like those other shops or online. Just because there's only 16 people who buy their product from that particular store and play in that particular store doesn't really say much at all.
For one, it's just one city, so even if it's not popular it doesn't mean much, I've been to cities where 40k didn't seem popular at all and I had to travel over an hour just to find a store that sold 40k products. Doesn't mean 40k isn't popular.
For two, there could be enclaves of gamers in other parts of the city who don't buy from or game at the store you enquired at. Not long ago I enquired at one of the major wargaming shops in Melbourne.... a city of 4 million people.... if Bolt Action was popular. The staffer said no, he just carried a few products in case someone was interested in starting a group, but he wasn't aware of anyone who played it and the only people who bought models bought them for other reasons.
....but I KNOW there's people who play Bolt Action in Melbourne, how many? I have no fething idea, but I've spoken to people who do play it, and the people I've met who play it have that store as their closest source of miniatures, within a few minutes drive, but the staffer doesn't even know that Bolt Action players exist let alone that they exist so close to his store.
@hobojebus You appeared to infer it wasn't doing too well locally as there are "only" 16 players (on a busy night) out of a population of 2.55 million (the rest of whom choose not to play because they don't like it as much as WHFB)
edited for sense, and so it's clear who I'm replying to!
hobojebus wrote: You've had someone else confirm that number of players in this thread who lives in Manchester, are you calling the GW staffer a liar? do you doubt the governments population data?
What am i misrepresenting?
I'm not familiar with Manchester, but it looks like a reasonably large place, as with most larger cities, there's going to be various places people go to game. Other shops, clubs or at home being the big ones. They can also buy their product from other places like those other shops or online. Just because there's only 16 people who buy their product from that particular store and play in that particular store doesn't really say much at all.
From a visit last year, Manchester has an exceptionally well hidden GW store (we were looking for it, with an address, and missed it twice), and 2 other stores that do gaming stuff. One is a comic shop (Travelling Man?) with a small GW section and no gaming space, the other is mostly a card games place with lots of gaming space, and (I think) a tiny GW section.
So I'd assume that if any AoS is being bought in person, or played in store, it'd be happening in the GW.
hobojebus wrote: You've had someone else confirm that number of players in this thread who lives in Manchester, are you calling the GW staffer a liar? do you doubt the governments population data?
What am i misrepresenting?
I'm not familiar with Manchester, but it looks like a reasonably large place, as with most larger cities, there's going to be various places people go to game. Other shops, clubs or at home being the big ones. They can also buy their product from other places like those other shops or online. Just because there's only 16 people who buy their product from that particular store and play in that particular store doesn't really say much at all.
From a visit last year, Manchester has an exceptionally well hidden GW store (we were looking for it, with an address, and missed it twice), and 2 other stores that do gaming stuff. One is a comic shop (Travelling Man?) with a small GW section and no gaming space, the other is mostly a card games place with lots of gaming space, and (I think) a tiny GW section.
So I'd assume that if any AoS is being bought in person, or played in store, it'd be happening in the GW.
Yeah but you still don't know if there's a large group of players NOT buying things in person.
Quite correct Herzlos. The GW in the City Centre is a decent size, and the Manager Paul is a great guy (and disgustingly talented at modelling and painting) - no hard sales from him, just genuine hobby enthusiasm. It is, as you say, an utter pain in the bum to find, and really could do with being on a street level.
I was surprised Travelling Man started stocking GW stuff. They're always full of comic book types and that space could be better used for more comics!
Fanboy3 is an odd place. I think that's where MtG lives in Manchester.
Despite your struggles with locating GW, I hope you had a god time in my City
The North West Gaming Centre isn't too far from Manchester, and is arguably easier to get to for people not within the city centre. It also has the excellent, and discounted, Element Games attached. No brainer, really!
Herzlos wrote: ]Yeah but you still don't know if there's a large group of players NOT buying things in person.
Well, no, that's impossible. Obviously we can only work on the figures we know, and from that, apparently only 16 AoS players make regular use of the GW store. A store that can probably host 16 games.
Kilkrazy wrote:
People like different games for different reasons. A number of users have condemned AoS for being only "an excuse to push models around while rolling lots of dice." But that's what plenty of people want to do, so what's the problem?
Problem is, some people need to believe that they are smarter or more superior to other people. They think they are playing Chess instead of Checkers. They think if something is more complicated or has more rules, that they are superior and smarter than other people who do play those games. In reality all you are doing is playing a similar game. Chess is just like Checkers. Both are fun. Both move pieces across the Exact same board. One is more simpler than the other, but in the end it's the same game, spending time doing something you like against an opponent and having fun.
Also, 100% of murderers have drunk water at least once!
Interesting approach though. State facts, infer an unfounded conclusion, then when people question your hypothesis demand they disprove the facts.
It's like chemtrails and flat earthers...
I mean, I could state that nobody plays any Mantic Games anywhere at all because in the city that I live in because we have no FLGS within 10 miles and nobody plays it at the club I go to.
I never could find the Manchester GW either. Fanboy 3 is an *odd* little shop, but seems pleasant enough.
Manchester GW is in the Arndale centre, sandwiched between Boots and a wedding dress shop. Pop in now and again to buy paint. Nice enough guys. Not too keen on the polo shirts tucked into pants attire.
16 people is pretty good considering the size of the store. I think they have four tables.
I live in Manchester. I don't play in any of the stores there. No intention of ever doing that. Same with the people I do play with; no interest in playing at stores.
For my friends they've seen a 100% increase in the number of people playing "fantasy" since AoS came out. Because there was two of them beforehand and now four of us play it. Stats, what a wonderful thing.
To answer the OP more directly, AoS before the first big book was a good concept lacking in direction. The Battleplans came out and we've had a lot of fun playing through them. They're a lot of fun (some more than others). We've had games that look won in the second turn, then it's a nail biter until the final, fifth round. Swings and roundabouts happen a lot. Nothing is for granted on the tabletop.
Looking forward to the General's Handbook in July.
Funnily enough I'm pretty sure you would if his statements were that AoS was exceedingly popular there.
The hobby in general is in a massive upheaval where one hobby can be overwhelming in one town where as the next is completely different in games and attitude.
Personally I think this is better for the hobby in general as everyone's getting to sample new and exciting things instead of get stuck with one hobby and have no other options.
Now if only that pesky tabletop superiority complex would disappear....
Hobo will be back after he's finished screaming into a pillow;
some info from Atia's blog suggests AoS is now about 30% of business. Which would mean it's selling better than fantasy was in the last few years.
Salt obviously, but the third source to say AoS is doing well in the last month.
The further AoS gets away from the abysmal launch the better off it will be, I suspect. I'd also assume GW's newer turn in general policy is also helping quite a bit.
The rules are meh as we all know. The game was largely dead in our area. But now in our group we've started an AoS league with six players.
The mindset of a GW addict. :-(
I really don't get this.
We live in an age where there are more rulesets and variety of settings than there has probably ever been ever. Why choose to play a game that has a "meh" ruleset?
If you like the figures, fine, I understand, (I like a lot of them - which is why I frequent this forum) but why not use them in a ruleset that you actually enjoy. There's so much more out there than GW rulesets, even if you do like their figures best.
Getting people to play other rulesets is insanely difficult. People will largely play a game that has a lot of players in it, regardless of quality of ruleset, because they want people to play against.
auticus wrote: Getting people to play other rulesets is insanely difficult. People will largely play a game that has a lot of players in it, regardless of quality of ruleset, because they want people to play against.
I agree. Except the poster kind of implied they were starting a league in their own little group. That's the perfect situation for trying out new games.
In my experience, the people in little groups are still swayed by what everyone else around them is playing.
This is a common occurrence where I live. We have people that gripe that the only game people will play is GW but when we try to host Frostgrave or Dragon Rampant games, they turn their nose up to it and keep complaining.
RoperPG wrote: Hobo will be back after he's finished screaming into a pillow;
some info from Atia's blog suggests AoS is now about 30% of business. Which would mean it's selling better than fantasy was in the last few years.
Salt obviously, but the third source to say AoS is doing well in the last month.
A meaningless statistic without any context to place it in. If the period that was taken over was a month or group of months when something new came out for AoS and nothin came out for 40k, then 30% is not a large number as most sales occur within the first month or so.
You also have to account for panic buying of models, how much short term money did GW get from killing TK, Bret's and large swathes of dwarfs, WE and empire? Enough that they decided to do a 2nd run of some of them. I'm sure there's also plenty of panic buying of regular stuff trying to get them before they swap to round bases.
RoperPG wrote: I never could find the Manchester GW either.
It's hidden behind a wedding dress shop in the back corner underneath the food court. The wedding dress shop sticks out a few feet further than the GW which totally obscures it from vue unless you walk right up to it.
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RoperPG wrote: Hobo will be back after he's finished screaming into a pillow;
some info from Atia's blog suggests AoS is now about 30% of business. Which would mean it's selling better than fantasy was in the last few years.
Salt obviously, but the third source to say AoS is doing well in the last month.
Since the only figure we've had for WHFB was about 8%, that'd mean that AoS is doing about 4 times as well as WHFB. In isolation, that's a crazy claim. Unless it's over a very short window (if they only count the week most of WHFB hit "Last chance to buy" then I could see it). But for the entire financial year or half year? I just can't see it.
Maybe AoS is picking up, as you said, there have been a few claims now. But there's also been claims that it's doing terribly and HQ is worried. I put more weight behind the latter because the rumour source has been faultless so far, and it ties in with all of the other signs (investors reports, the panicked change in direction, complete lack of interest locally, etc).
It'd be awesome if it became popular and evolved into a mature, competent game, but I'm just not seeing it. It came so close to being my ideal game.
RoperPG wrote: Hobo will be back after he's finished screaming into a pillow;
some info from Atia's blog suggests AoS is now about 30% of business. Which would mean it's selling better than fantasy was in the last few years.
Salt obviously, but the third source to say AoS is doing well in the last month.
Yes that's why GW issued an investor warning...because AoS is so wildly popular.
RoperPG wrote: Hobo will be back after he's finished screaming into a pillow;
some info from Atia's blog suggests AoS is now about 30% of business. Which would mean it's selling better than fantasy was in the last few years.
Salt obviously, but the third source to say AoS is doing well in the last month.
Yes that's why GW issued an investor warning...because AoS is so wildly popular.
Here's a website you'll love...
Spurious Correlations To be clear, it's entirely possible that AoS is doing abysmally. But for some their standard of evidence is atrocious and are walking exercises in confirmation bias.
RoperPG wrote: Oh, I stated salt required. It's just that some have difficulty separating facts from opinions at the best of times...
Yeah, I realise you stated that, I just don't want to come back in a year and hear about how AoS is doing awesome compared to WHFB because it's 30% of GW's sales when the evidence of it is worse than anecdotal because at least anecdotal evidence comes with context
The internet has a bad habit of just repeating numbers until they are taken as fact, even if they were without context, with no source or a poor source.
RoperPG wrote: Hobo will be back after he's finished screaming into a pillow;
some info from Atia's blog suggests AoS is now about 30% of business. Which would mean it's selling better than fantasy was in the last few years.
Salt obviously, but the third source to say AoS is doing well in the last month.
Yes that's why GW issued an investor warning...because AoS is so wildly popular.
I can't find any information on the internet about any "investor warning", can you link me a source for this?
RoperPG wrote: Hobo will be back after he's finished screaming into a pillow; some info from Atia's blog suggests AoS is now about 30% of business. Which would mean it's selling better than fantasy was in the last few years. Salt obviously, but the third source to say AoS is doing well in the last month.
Yes that's why GW issued an investor warning...because AoS is so wildly popular.
I can't find any information on the internet about any "investor warning", can you link me a source for this?
If I recall correctly the 6 month report that came out most recently stated they aren't projecting to meet their previous target by the end of the financial year.
EDIT: I just checked, they said...
Whilst we are disappointed with the decline in return on capital reported in the period, we are all confident that we are focused on delivering the necessary changes to address this decline
.....
December sales were below expectations across the Group. At this stage in the Company’s financial year, the Company’s internal projections indicate that pre-tax profit for the year to 29 May 2016 is unlikely to exceed £16 million. A further update will be made when appropriate. “
Noting that pre-tax profit in 2015 was £16.6M. They had a bad half and are projecting not to match their 2015 numbers.
They issued a profits warning in January after not meeting expectations for Xmas sales.
Linky Read further into the report and there's other factors at play (restructuring, etc.)
GW's share price dropped about 20% after the warning was issued, but it's actually been recovering over the past month.
Edit: funnily enough, since WHQ was confirmed...
Question I have for the Age of Sigmar is selling 30%, is it actually AoS miniatures that are selling or the Get Started Boxsets that are selling and the rest of the Fantasy range.
Why do I have a feeling those Sigmarines are not really selling and it's actual Fantasy models that are selling. But since now everything is labeled AoS Fantasy minis can be considered AoS minis now.
Still once we take out the Gets Started Boxsets and Fantasy minis out how much is the Actual AoS minis really selling.
Still that is good that AoS is 30%. Then again, if only 2 people played AoS last year and 4 people play now, that means a 100% increase in players showing up. So without knowing what the 30% is being based on, we can also say that AoS sales are the same from last year, flat and 40K took a HUGE hit which would make AoS 30% now instead of 10% or less like it was last year.
So context have to be taken. I wouldn't be bragging that AoS is 30% sales when 40K can be doing badly now and not AoS doing better.
RoperPG wrote: They issued a profits warning in January after not meeting expectations for Xmas sales. Linky Read further into the report and there's other factors at play (restructuring, etc.) GW's share price dropped about 20% after the warning was issued, but it's actually been recovering over the past month. Edit: funnily enough, since WHQ was confirmed...
I'm pretty sure that just references the half year report I mentioned in my post above? But I don't have a subscription to FT so I'm just going off other sources I found by googling the title of your link.
I have no idea why that link isn't working - I can see it and I don't subscribe? Hmmm.
Just to be clear to people, too:
The "AOS IS CURRENTLY 30% OF SALES" is a rumour.
As far as GW are concerned AoS is the entire fantasy line, so there wouldn't be any demarcation - if it's a fantasy kit, it'd be an AoS sale.
There's no timescale on the rumour, so it could mean this week, this month, etc. etc.
It does come in succession of a couple of other sources in the space of a month stating it's doing better.
There's no way we'll ever have the empirical answer - no matter what click-bait BoLS kicks out, or ridiculous extrapolations people make based on their own observations, or appeals to authority over who internets better.
AoS isn't going anywhere any time soon, because GW WILL ride it into the ground if necessary to try and save it; they don't really have any other option.
Yes they really do have options. They just choose to not do them. They can make the game cheaper. They can write CLEAR, CONCISE, rulesets. They can apologize and ask for forgiveness. They can make a balanced rule set. They can make a point system. (Yeah looks like points are coming in, but from what I see so far it's not what people are looking for. Time will tell there.) They can do so much. GW can go the Walmart way, and sell in volume and make profit that way instead of selling in low volume with expensive prices. They do have options. They just choose not to do so.
That being said, yes I know companies don't apologize. I seen one or two computer game companies do so. Never a corporations, but still it's an option. Will it happen? Most likely not. Thing is GW still have the other options at their disposal and they are not doing it.
Interestingly, prices of AoS releases have been dropping, both from the inclusion of more bundled box sets and with newer books being outright cheaper than comparable previous releases.
GW will double down on AoS. They might tweak the rules fractionally, but I'm still convinced that the majority of the system's hallmarks are down to back-end business reasons.
I don't see square bases ever coming back, put it that way.
RoperPG wrote: GW will double down on AoS. They might tweak the rules fractionally, but I'm still convinced that the majority of the system's hallmarks are down to back-end business reasons.
I don't see square bases ever coming back, put it that way.
I agree but I can also see in the style of BaC, Warhammer Quest, etc. them coming out with some sort of regimented, mass battle side game/one-off sort of deal one day. I think those nostalgia-fests get good play, and there's still interest in many classic Warhammer players for a regimented game.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Interestingly, prices of AoS releases have been dropping, both from the inclusion of more bundled box sets and with newer books being outright cheaper than comparable previous releases.
A good example is the crypt ghouls. About how AOS is doing? How about we wait until their financial report then everyone can play armchair CEO? Now what I have seen in my GW store? AOS is selling rather well but that's just one store I have no idea how its doing anywhere else I do know the new releases so far are being met with positive responses.
Oh and I am glad slaanesh is getting stuff don't know how many times I had to tell people slaanesh is not squatted from the fluff.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Interestingly, prices of AoS releases have been dropping, both from the inclusion of more bundled box sets and with newer books being outright cheaper than comparable previous releases.
Are any of the AOS-specific releases cheaper or is it mainly the repackaging of WHFB? Just curous
NinthMusketeer wrote: Interestingly, prices of AoS releases have been dropping, both from the inclusion of more bundled box sets and with newer books being outright cheaper than comparable previous releases.
Are any of the AOS-specific releases cheaper or is it mainly the repackaging of WHFB? Just curous
No they are not. That is why I think the repackaged Fantasy minis is to clear stock. Otherwise how come the new releases don't get bundled into a great deal as well?
NinthMusketeer wrote: Interestingly, prices of AoS releases have been dropping, both from the inclusion of more bundled box sets and with newer books being outright cheaper than comparable previous releases.
I had noticed that too. I put it down to the first generation of kits and books having been priced too adventurously and not selling well enough due to the well-known price issue that affected WHFB and 40K over the past few years. A pricing policy enacted by Kirby and now being rapidly rolled back by Rountree.
The bundles are a classic way of marketing stuff more cheaply without reducing prices on the individual items. AFAIK all the fantasy bundles have been legacy WHFB armies, but in 40K there are some good value bundles of new stuff like Tau so it's not impossible the same thing will happen with new generation AoS kits.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Interestingly, prices of AoS releases have been dropping, both from the inclusion of more bundled box sets and with newer books being outright cheaper than comparable previous releases.
I had noticed that too. I put it down to the first generation of kits and books having been priced too adventurously and not selling well enough due to the well-known price issue that affected WHFB and 40K over the past few years. A pricing policy enacted by Kirby and now being rapidly rolled back by Rountree.
This is merely my speculation of course.
I think this is the case too.
As to the earlier question about AoS-specific releases dropping in price; while the models have not seen such, the books definitely have.
What books have dropped in price? I still see the books at $90 Canadian. The $20 and $40 books don't have hardly any fluff compared to those books, so I wouldn't be saying the books have gotten cheaper.
Now if they make another book like those $90 books (sorry forget what they are called, Real Gate books?) and it's cheaper, then yes I would say the books have gotten cheaper. Until then the "codex" books are reasonably priced for once. Then again, GW just did what Apple did. Got people to buy for something they actually got for free.
Davor wrote: What books have dropped in price? I still see the books at $90 Canadian. The $20 and $40 books don't have hardly any fluff compared to those books, so I wouldn't be saying the books have gotten cheaper.
Now if they make another book like those $90 books (sorry forget what they are called, Real Gate books?) and it's cheaper, then yes I would say the books have gotten cheaper.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Interestingly, prices of AoS releases have been dropping, both from the inclusion of more bundled box sets and with newer books being outright cheaper than comparable previous releases.
I had noticed that too. I put it down to the first generation of kits and books having been priced too adventurously and not selling well enough due to the well-known price issue that affected WHFB and 40K over the past few years. A pricing policy enacted by Kirby and now being rapidly rolled back by Rountree.
This is merely my speculation of course.
I think this is the case too.
As to the earlier question about AoS-specific releases dropping in price; while the models have not seen such, the books definitely have.
Me 3. Saw it even as wood elf boxes were $37 as opposed to the $50 I'd just payed for dwarfs. But I'll take any improvement on price.
Davor wrote: What books have dropped in price? I still see the books at $90 Canadian. The $20 and $40 books don't have hardly any fluff compared to those books, so I wouldn't be saying the books have gotten cheaper.
Now if they make another book like those $90 books (sorry forget what they are called, Real Gate books?) and it's cheaper, then yes I would say the books have gotten cheaper.
The last campaign book, Godbeasts, is $80.
This. Also, to strictly compare battletomes of similar content (USD);
So we can see the price has dropped significantly. Even considering that they price stuff with new models higher than repacks we can see that Ironjawz saw a decent drop compared to Fyreslayers and both to Everchosen before them. I left out the Stormcast/Bloodbound/Seraphon books because they have notably more content in them while I left out Extremis since it is really an expansion to the Stormcast battletome, but including those only adds to the trend of decreasing price.
godswildcard wrote: So, with all that said, I want an honest assessment of the state of the game. The new Orruks have me interested in the game again, but they're expensive and I don't want to drop money on expensive models that will never get used
Power of Counts As, just stick them on square bases and call them something else
Davor wrote: What books have dropped in price? I still see the books at $90 Canadian. The $20 and $40 books don't have hardly any fluff compared to those books, so I wouldn't be saying the books have gotten cheaper.
Now if they make another book like those $90 books (sorry forget what they are called, Real Gate books?) and it's cheaper, then yes I would say the books have gotten cheaper.
On the new Facehammer podcast today, Russ Veal (part of the SCGT group) said there had been a restructuring in the upper echelons of GW in January, which makes sense considering all the changes in approach starting then.
coldgaming wrote: On the new Facehammer podcast today, Russ Veal (part of the SCGT group) said there had been a restructuring in the upper echelons of GW in January, which makes sense considering all the changes in approach starting then.
That does line up with what we've seen pretty well, and I'd bet money that it was done partly as a response to a terrible launch for AoS. At any rate, I'm all for these new guys if true as GW has made a lot of positive turns lately.
coldgaming wrote: On the new Facehammer podcast today, Russ Veal (part of the SCGT group) said there had been a restructuring in the upper echelons of GW in January, which makes sense considering all the changes in approach starting then.
That would coincide with their underwhelming first half of the financial year and Christmas period. I haven't been following AoS releases close enough to know if it could logically be the cause of price changes.
The actual new release AoS kits don't really appear to be getting cheaper though? It's just books and some bundles, yeah?
dont know globally how its doing, but its dead here. the only GW in the region is denver, I go there often and AoS is not played, only 40k *with some 30k* no fantasy no AoS,..the local games stores do not stock GW in any real amount, it is not played it has not sold, but the owner is fine with having some of it because he can and does sell some 40k. I saw a person from Lakewood post earlier saying its going good there, I wont doubt him, but I certainly haven't seen it., granted thats a much nicer part of town than where I live. this side of town is PP, Xwing, and 40k territory.
coldgaming wrote: On the new Facehammer podcast today, Russ Veal (part of the SCGT group) said there had been a restructuring in the upper echelons of GW in January, which makes sense considering all the changes in approach starting then.
That does line up with what we've seen pretty well, and I'd bet money that it was done partly as a response to a terrible launch for AoS. At any rate, I'm all for these new guys if true as GW has made a lot of positive turns lately.
I agree, and on Facebook from Warhammer Fest, someone was talking with Jervis and said he mentioned that the company made some mistakes during the launch but he's really positive about where they're going now.
here's GW's problem they are set up for mass production but price their stuff as if it's a boutique item.
The inflated price is masking the shrinking sales.
They could cut prices on everything 50% and still make a profit on each sale but in the short term that would dramatically lower their overall profit which effects the dividends payout which panics shareholders and leads to their value tanking.
GW won't start growing again until they drop prices we all know that but they are rightly scared that even such a drastic move won't attract people back.
GW is the EA of wargaming but unlike EA they are struggling to make a product people will buy even though they hate the company making it.
If ever GW wants it's top spot back it's going to involve alot of painful choices and I doubt rountree can make the board agree to it.
As for the St Louis area, I only seen a few games played since its release. Most are demo games or games pushed by the shop owner to help move the wall of fantasy miniatures.
Personally most of the people I know that played have moved on to other games and when I visited the local Games Workshop here, they had two and a half games of 40k and a half table with
Sigmarites and a Archaon on display.
40k is still strong here but there was a kind of crater effect that slowed the games down after the release of Age of Sigmar, with fear that GW would do the same to 40k as they did Warhammer fantasy.
If they truly wanted a game 40k players would like, just make one rules set.. where players could cross over 40k and warhammer.. like what Privateer press does.
hobojebus wrote: here's GW's problem they are set up for mass production but price their stuff as if it's a boutique item.
GW doesn't mass produce anymore. With all their "limited editions" GW just through out their answer of a lot of their products being expensive is paying for molds. So if they can only sell 1000 minis and never again, I guess molds don't cost as much as GW claims. GW have been releasing a lot of "limited" minis as of late. Also if GW was doing mass production, a lot of their minis would not be "selling out". GW makes artificial hype by on purpose not making as much as they could so they can be "sold out".
The inflated price is masking the shrinking sales.
They could cut prices on everything 50% and still make a profit on each sale but in the short term that would dramatically lower their overall profit which effects the dividends payout which panics shareholders and leads to their value tanking.
GW won't start growing again until they drop prices we all know that but they are rightly scared that even such a drastic move won't attract people back.
No. GW does know what their sales are. They know they are having less sales but still making profit. I guess when Kirby was in charge, it was ok for him and his team (cronies? ) was fine with making less but getting more out of it. I guess the new team wants more sales instead of less and less sales each year. The new team wants to see growth instead of declining sales. So maybe having growth but less increased profit is what GW is trying to do. As long as each year is growing is what they want. We don't have a clue what they want.
What boggles me is GW can go the Walmart way. Mass produce, sell cheap, and sell in volume. For what ever reason, GW wants to be "premium" and not Walmart for what ever reason. I guess being "premium" is not making enough profit or growth for them now. Let's see where GW is heading now.
GW is the EA of wargaming but unlike EA they are struggling to make a product people will buy even though they hate the company making it.
If we really hated the company we would have left. If you hate something that much and still stay, that only proves what kind of person they are and their character. Hypocrite?
If ever GW wants it's top spot back it's going to involve alot of painful choices and I doubt rountree can make the board agree to it.
Seeing all the changes I thought and I am sure most of us here, would never see, are actually happening, I am sure we can say you are wrong here. It looks like Mr Rountree is doing a lot of changes now we would never see and in time we will see if they are working. It will take a few years to fix, this can't be done in seeing next years financial reports. In 2 years we will see if Mr Rountree was successful or not.
So in Louisville we are doing Azyr Empires this summer and fall at our local GW and we have about 12 people signed up.
Prize to the winner is a replica of the LOTR sword "Sting".
So 12 AOS players currently playing events here, and the tournament store in town is doing one in JULY (an AOS tournament) that also has about 12 people playing (9 are different from our 12) - so based solely on event signups we have 21 AOS players playing events in the city.
The last fantasy campaign we did for WHFB had 24 active players so our community is still smaller than it was last year but is catching back up with new players.
AOS at my GW (as we are currently running Escalation, but no prize) doesn't have enough tables to play on weekends. There's always 3 games going (we split 2 full tables into thirds). So... quite a bit of people playing.
It is played around here every now and then. I myself am slowly warming up to it. Despite my hate for GW killing the WHFB setting (and getting rid of some of the stuff I had wanted to buy) I am now seriously considering getting into AoS. I just really need my sword&sorcery fix, and LotR alone isn't cutting it for some reason. I am now looking at either AoS or Darklands, but both have their share of problems... Though choices. I guess I just have to see and wait how everything develops before jumping in.
Here in Montreal it seems deader than dead. Went to a couple of stores and they told me it wasn't selling, and myself put some stormcast on Kijiji for a ridiculously low price and haven't even received an offer.
Guess that the release of points could help the game locally, but I doubt it, as even with point, it is a very shallow ruleset.
In GW defense, I must say that WQ seems like the perfect way too build interest toward AOS. Though I think that there is some major flaws that will hold it back from being as succesfull as it could have been, it is a great initiative.
Iron_Captain wrote: It is played around here every now and then. I myself am slowly warming up to it. Despite my hate for GW killing the WHFB setting (and getting rid of some of the stuff I had wanted to buy) I am now seriously considering getting into AoS. I just really need my sword&sorcery fix, and LotR alone isn't cutting it for some reason. I am now looking at either AoS or Darklands, but both have their share of problems... Though choices. I guess I just have to see and wait how everything develops before jumping in.
Have you had a look at:
Frostgrave
Songs of Blades and Heroes
Of Gods and Mortals
Hordes of the Things
Dragon Rampant
Kings of War
Iron_Captain wrote: It is played around here every now and then. I myself am slowly warming up to it. Despite my hate for GW killing the WHFB setting (and getting rid of some of the stuff I had wanted to buy) I am now seriously considering getting into AoS. I just really need my sword&sorcery fix, and LotR alone isn't cutting it for some reason. I am now looking at either AoS or Darklands, but both have their share of problems... Though choices. I guess I just have to see and wait how everything develops before jumping in.
Have you had a look at:
Frostgrave
Songs of Blades and Heroes
Of Gods and Mortals
Hordes of the Things
Dragon Rampant
Kings of War
I second the SoB&H suggestion if you are looking for a generic fantasy fix - it is quick, rules-light and fun (or atleast it was in 2007 when it was selling for 5 golden, american dollars...)
Iron_Captain wrote: It is played around here every now and then. I myself am slowly warming up to it. Despite my hate for GW killing the WHFB setting (and getting rid of some of the stuff I had wanted to buy) I am now seriously considering getting into AoS. I just really need my sword&sorcery fix, and LotR alone isn't cutting it for some reason. I am now looking at either AoS or Darklands, but both have their share of problems... Though choices. I guess I just have to see and wait how everything develops before jumping in.
Have you had a look at:
Frostgrave
Songs of Blades and Heroes
Of Gods and Mortals
Hordes of the Things
Dragon Rampant
Kings of War
I just got frostgrave the other day I'm reading through it, I'm looking forward to playing it once I'm confident on the rules.
Iron_Captain wrote: It is played around here every now and then. I myself am slowly warming up to it. Despite my hate for GW killing the WHFB setting (and getting rid of some of the stuff I had wanted to buy) I am now seriously considering getting into AoS. I just really need my sword&sorcery fix, and LotR alone isn't cutting it for some reason. I am now looking at either AoS or Darklands, but both have their share of problems... Though choices. I guess I just have to see and wait how everything develops before jumping in.
Have you had a look at:
Frostgrave
Songs of Blades and Heroes
Of Gods and Mortals
Hordes of the Things
Dragon Rampant
Kings of War
I just got frostgrave the other day I'm reading through it, I'm looking forward to playing it once I'm confident on the rules.
Would love to hear more about it after you get through reading it, likely in its own thread area. I was wondering if it is a good successor to mordheim. thanks.
My local GW I see much more AOS than 40k. they had an active spring league with 12+ players. Summer league is looking to have more. Running other events like grand alliance battles and other big battles. Some of the 40k players have been switching over. Battle plans and other comps help balance. Match play will also be nice.
Just based on the response here on dakka, I'm betting AoS will see a boost once the points book(s) drops this summer.
That book and the new WHQ Silver Tower seem to be getting at least more positive interest than before.
Even some of the staunchest detractors went from:
"AoS sucks! GW jammed us over! They're so unhoopy! I'll burn my models..."
to
"Points? Tell me more about how I can use my shelved minis in this new format."
Another big step for AoS will be the transition from the old models to the new ones.
That's been quite the complaint that with AoS as a new game it should have all new factions that are a break from the old aesthetic.
Now this obviously is a double edged sword because it would leave the old fanbase without any access to the models they've grown use to and would feel alienated further than the current stock just getting round bases.
However, pushing out all new factions like the future fey Sylvaneths would really help players get a better feel for the new setting and dispell doubts that AoS is just making sells on the older stock instead of on the new models.
Agreed a 100% on this. The fact that the new settings is supposed to be thousand of years after the old world, and yet that most factions still look identical, is something that really makes me unable to get into AOS. Most redesign have been good so far (except for the fyrslyer. Concept is cool, but execution is atrocious), so I'm pretty excited to see what will come later on.
hobojebus wrote: here's GW's problem they are set up for mass production but price their stuff as if it's a boutique item.
GW doesn't mass produce anymore. With all their "limited editions" GW just through out their answer of a lot of their products being expensive is paying for molds. So if they can only sell 1000 minis and never again, I guess molds don't cost as much as GW claims. GW have been releasing a lot of "limited" minis as of late. Also if GW was doing mass production, a lot of their minis would not be "selling out". GW makes artificial hype by on purpose not making as much as they could so they can be "sold out".
The vast majority of what GW makes is still mass produced. They release a few kits each month that are intended to stay on shelves long term.
Things like their board games where they only make a limited amount, the amount is probably what they can make from a single mould.
I don't think they do too many "1000 only" miniatures? They had a couple of limited Space Marines and I think that was about it? Either way, when you only intend to make 1000, my understanding is you can make a cheaper mould knowing it won't last as long.
privateer4hire wrote: Even some of the staunchest detractors went from: "AoS sucks! GW jammed us over! They're so unhoopy! I'll burn my models..." to "Points? Tell me more about how I can use my shelved minis in this new format."
Mathhammer, here we come again. ARGH! There goes play what you want and what you want. Net lists, here we come.
Baron Klatz wrote: ...... dispell doubts that AoS is just making sells on the older stock instead of on the new models.
This got me thinking. I am sure the 30% AoS sales is doing is older stock. Are people really buying that many Sigmarines and Chaos guys to be making 30% of all of GW sales? No I don't think so. What is it, 50% of 40K sales is what, Space Marines? Going by AoS was 10% of sales last year that would mean 40K is what 70% of GW sales and the rest we say are brushes, glue and what not? So that is what 35% of all GW sales is Space Marines? You telling me Sigmarines, Chaos, and the new Dwarves are selling about the same as Space Marines? No AoS in my opinion is not doing that well. It's the older stock that is being sold. Time will tell if my opinion is correct or not.
More importantly they are "mass produced" in that they are produced using injection moulded PVC - designed and optimized for mass production. They presumably also produce several thousand of any given mini.
limited run / boutique tend to have a fixed number and are usually in the hundreds, using some sort of hand-casting method in resin or metal. Where you might only be able to cast a few dozen an hour, rather than a few dozen a minute.
This got me thinking. I am sure the 30% AoS sales is doing is older stock. Are people really buying that many Sigmarines and Chaos guys to be making 30% of all of GW sales?
I think this figure only floated after Warhammer Quest went up for order to LGS, which came with huge bulk incentives (Some discount for every 10). So it's entirely possible that most of this 30% is actually trade orders for Warhammer Quest. That and the "Last chance to buy" makes me skeptical that of the 30% figure meaning anything. As already said, anything for Fantasy will be counted as AoS.
Iron_Captain wrote: It is played around here every now and then. I myself am slowly warming up to it. Despite my hate for GW killing the WHFB setting (and getting rid of some of the stuff I had wanted to buy) I am now seriously considering getting into AoS. I just really need my sword&sorcery fix, and LotR alone isn't cutting it for some reason. I am now looking at either AoS or Darklands, but both have their share of problems... Though choices. I guess I just have to see and wait how everything develops before jumping in.
Have you had a look at:
Frostgrave
Songs of Blades and Heroes
Of Gods and Mortals
Hordes of the Things
Dragon Rampant
Kings of War
I just got frostgrave the other day I'm reading through it, I'm looking forward to playing it once I'm confident on the rules.
Would love to hear more about it after you get through reading it, likely in its own thread area. I was wondering if it is a good successor to mordheim. thanks.
Personally i don't think it is as good as Mordheim. Way too streamlined and simple for me
Iron_Captain wrote: It is played around here every now and then. I myself am slowly warming up to it. Despite my hate for GW killing the WHFB setting (and getting rid of some of the stuff I had wanted to buy) I am now seriously considering getting into AoS. I just really need my sword&sorcery fix, and LotR alone isn't cutting it for some reason. I am now looking at either AoS or Darklands, but both have their share of problems... Though choices. I guess I just have to see and wait how everything develops before jumping in.
Have you had a look at:
Frostgrave
Songs of Blades and Heroes
Of Gods and Mortals
Hordes of the Things
Dragon Rampant
Kings of War
I just got frostgrave the other day I'm reading through it, I'm looking forward to playing it once I'm confident on the rules.
Would love to hear more about it after you get through reading it, likely in its own thread area. I was wondering if it is a good successor to mordheim. thanks.
Personally i don't think it is as good as Mordheim. Way too streamlined and simple for me
That's not a bad thing in games look at x-wing, 40k is a mess because it's a sluggish bloated mess that takes three or more hours to play at 2k.
AoS is a mess because all those weapons and shields have different properties.
Most people I know enjoy Frostgrave BECAUSE it is simple. The concept that a game can only be good if it is complex doesn't fly with everyone. I may have agreed twenty years ago, but twenty years ago I enjoyed the aspect of the game that was "rules mastery" which meant if I memorized the complex rule system I had an advantage over others that wouldn't.
Today I don't have time for all that anymore. I prefer simpler games that don't have a lot of rules. Something that has never happened with AOS that has happened with every other GW game I have ever played is that I cannot remember a single rules argument in almost a year now.
40k is irritating because every game I spend a good 20-30 minutes total looking stuff up because the rules are atrocious.
As for AOS having different properties for shields etc, I don't mind that at all. One of my main complaints about Kings of War is how bland and generic everything is. Having models do different things appeals to me.
I treat it like I do discrete mathematics. Everything has its own set of properties and I only have to know the properties that I chose to take with me to game.
One way I do this is by simply printing out each unit card and laminating it. Then I have every unit I'm using right in front of me.
40k isn't just complicated, it's a convoluted mess of poorly written and ambiguous rules. You can have complexity without taking much extra time to play a game by having well written rules and good reference sheets. 40k has neither, often a situation will have you flicking through a book, to find a rule, which will tell you to flick to another part of the book or possibly even a different book, then you find the rule you want and it's ambiguously written and can be interpreted multiple ways, often causing you to read larger slabs of rules and debate with your opponent to try and come to a conclusion.
You can have complicated rules as long as they don't give you the run around when questions come up and you have good reference sheets so questions don't come up frequently in the first place.
AoS, it seems GW thought "complication is bad, let's go simple!" while ignoring that it's the BADLY written rules people dislike, not the complex ones. It went too far the other way. Putting the rules on 4 pages? Really, would anyone have cared if it was written on 10-15 pages but with a little more depth, clarity and less corner cutting?
I don't think the game even needs 4 pages. A lot of the space currently is pretty much wasted in setup/triumph stuff. I'm a big fan of the short rulebook and I would not want 10-15 pages for the base rules. The problem GW has is poor ability to write. Even on the four pages, they wasted space and made ambiguous wording. The rules could be 2 pages and unambiguous. The strength of AoS is the simplicity of the base rules. It doesn't need more pages, but it does need more technical-minded writers.
coldgaming wrote: I don't think the game even needs 4 pages. A lot of the space currently is pretty much wasted in setup/triumph stuff. I'm a big fan of the short rulebook and I would not want 10-15 pages for the base rules. The problem GW has is poor ability to write. Even on the four pages, they wasted space and made ambiguous wording. The rules could be 2 pages and unambiguous. The strength of AoS is the simplicity of the base rules. It doesn't need more pages, but it does need more technical-minded writers.
Yes I agree with you in both that I love the 4-page rules but feel like the triumph table and victory conditions are two of the clunkier areas, but I do see why GW included them for the ease of having lines in the campaign books that read "replace the triumph table/victory conditions with the following..."
So after giving it some more thought I don't think I would want to take them out completely because I think it's good to have a baseline there that the campaign books supersede. At the same time, they are some of the rules that caused the biggest uproar when AoS was first released. Perhaps disclaimers above each explaining their purpose would make them better. "The Triumph Table is a quick method to run a campaign with friends and link a series of battles" - "The Sudden Death Victory Conditions provide a loose framework for game objectives" or something along those lines.
don,t agree with you. I like it when a game have some kind of unique mechanism. Frostgrave pretty much only consist on who rolls higher on a dice. I can see why some like it for its simplicity, but me, I find it a bit boring. Same thing for AOS.
I much prefer a game like helldorado, where there was all kind of cool thing to do. Different strokes for different folks
Davor wrote: 4 pages of rules? What a joke. I believe Age of Sigmar has more rules than 40K. So how is AoS less complex than 40K?
I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested 40k does a good job with its rules.
Oh wait, I know. A lot of people need Mathhammer when they play so they can show how superior they are with man dollies.
I'm not really following your logic progression. Do you mean because AoS has no balancing mechanics there's no point doing math?
A lot of mathhammer in 40k just comes down the the god-awful balance. It's usually just used to figure out which weapon or unit is "best", when if the game was balanced there shouldn't be a "best". In a balanced world, you'd just decide "oh I want the choppy unit, so I'll take those guys, and I want some anti-infantry so I'll take that gun, and then a bit of anti-tank so I'll take that gun". But the balance is so crap mathhammer steps in and tells you, wait, that choppy unit is likely to get gunned down long before it ever gets to chopping, that anti-infantry gun is a waste of points, and that anti-tank gun only has a 25% chance of taking off a hull point so is actually not as good as a completely different anti-tank option. If you don't do the mathhammer beforehand, you'll be wondering why the army you spent hundreds of hours painting keeps getting wiped off the table
The thing that most of the special rules are in the warscrolls makes the game much more easy to learn, even if there are in fact lots of special rules existing. It's like Twilight struggle, which at least used to be the no1 game in the Boardgamegeek, the rules are fairly simple and easy to learn because most of the content is in the cards, you don't have to waste time reading them all through before you get to play and while you play the rules are easily on hand on cards without needing to skim through a few hundred pages thick manual.
This is the thing why 40k is so hard to play, as you have to skim through all the different books for the rules, even when the core rules are in fact more simple than AoS.
The same design philosophy has been used in the Infinity and I can say that especially infinity (2nd edition) was exhausting game to get hold of. Luckily it's a very good game. It seems to be a Spanish thing as the batman miniature game has similar system of listing every skill in the book even when all of the units have their cards. It always takes almost 3rd of the playing time to find out what everything does.
Davor wrote: 4 pages of rules? What a joke. I believe Age of Sigmar has more rules than 40K. So how is AoS less complex than 40K?
It's been a long while since I looked at 40k, but that followed the same philosophy as AoS the last time I looked - namely every unit had its own set of rules, some would refer back to some generic rule, but many were specific to the unit. If you wanted to know the rules for all the units (even if the rules were generic abilities) you still needed all the codices to know all the rules for all the units.
However, just like 40k, AoS does not require that you know all the rules for all the units. It only requires that you know the rules for the units you are playing with. If we have a dozen unit types one the table then you only need to know the rules for those units, be it 40k or AoS. Then with 40k you need to understand the rules for the game itself, which is however many pages nowadays, and for AoS the 4 pages of rules. Any given game of AoS is going to be way less complex than 40k.
In AoS all of a unit's rules are found on its war scroll, while in 40K you have to refer to various different pages of the codex and the main rulebook.
The next difference is that 40K has a awful lot more little rules, such as weapon types (Assault, Rapid Fire, Template, etc.) that aren't found in AoS.
With regards to rules, many of AoS' ones are of different nature to 40k's ones. Where a 40k unit would have re-rolls to hit, ignores cove rules or always wounds on 4+, AoS units have rules like: halve the enemy's movement value, roll consecutive successes to wipe out a unit, various buffs etc. They are more akin to 40k's psychic powers as effects go thus are more difficult to remember during a battle (atleast for me in any case). Imagine an army of psykers (marginalized case) and how every turn you try to hold the spells you cast in your mind and base your decisions upon them. AoS is somewhat similar to that.
If he were $60-70 like the last round of mega fantasy monsters I'd immediately buy three ... but not at this price, not for this game.
Modeling for 
I wish I was more gung-ho for Ninth, but I feel like they took 8E, fixed a few things, then made it needlessly complicated in other ways. And I actually played 8E again recently, and while it was fun - it really was! - it was also a weirdly messy experience after playing Kings for a while, shedding models everywhere, and magic was just as frustrating as it always was.
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); became more comfortable with 
); 8E came out summer of 2010, and first games are tenuous steps into a strange, extremely random world ... We (and the NE 
Painting and building output has already outstripped 2015 (which wasn't hard, admittedly), with a lot more planned as my first multi-based 
