after reading an article today I have decided to Boycott Marvel and anything dealing with Marvel from Comics to movies to TV shows, why you ask, it appears Marvel has made Captain America into a sleeper agent for HYDRA, in essence they have turned Captain America a symbol who stands for all that is right with America into a Nazi, I consider this reprehensible and disrespectful to America and all it stands for.
At least in the films/TV - HYDRA are not nazi's they are:
Spoiler:
Worshipers - in a Cthulhu cult way - or an ancient diety (actually an inhuman) who they wish to return to Earth from another world, hoping for an appropriate reward
not that that makes them any better - just not nazi's - who they use as another front...........
Mr Morden wrote: At least in the films/TV - HYDRA are not nazi's they are:
Spoiler:
Worshipers - in a Cthulhu cult way - or an ancient diety (actually an inhuman) who they wish to return to Earth from another world, hoping for an appropriate reward
not that that makes them any better - just not nazi's - who they use as another front...........
Are you sure its not the Winer Soldier storyline?
Nope its Steve Rogers and they are saying he was a sleeper Agent the whole time and went on to show how.
There's so much hysteria around this and the demands to make Steve gay that I honestly want it to work just to spite everyone.
Seriously, the only indication we've got so far is him saying "Hail Hydra." at the end of the first issue of a brand new comic series.
What we know:
He's part of Hydra
What we don't know:
Why
What that the plot is
What they plan for him to do
Pretty much everything
What happened to giving stuff a chance, and being wholly justified in criticising it if/when it's actually crap? I will gladly join in with criticising it if it turns out to be a crock of gak, but until then, I'm reserving judgement--although I seem to be literally the only person on the internet capable of this feat.
Too late for some people; according to many, it's already:
Crapping on the Jewish heritage of Captain America's creators
Crapping on the Jewish heritage of comic books
Crapping on Jews as a whole
Making a mockery of the Holocaust and Jewish suffering
Trivialising genocide
[Insert yet more absurd claims here]
Too late for some people; according to many, it's already:
Crapping on the Jewish heritage of Captain America's creators
Crapping on the Jewish heritage of comic books
Crapping on Jews as a whole
Making a mockery of the Holocaust and Jewish suffering
Trivialising genocide
[Insert yet more absurd claims here]
Yeah the tumblr-esque folk that find fault with everything (including science, biology, politics, etc all while not really understanding it).
I read an article that he was de-aged by the Cosmic Cube made human; someone/something that has spent a lot of time with Red Skull. Cosmic Cube responsible for this? Likely. I'm sure it'll be back to normal at some point...might involve time travel though. I guess those pesky FF or X-Men will have to get involved. They still have a monopoly on time travel, right?
This is why I quit comic books fandom (and fandom in general) years ago. I can say a lot mean things about a lot of fandoms, but I think few reach the righteously indignant vitriol of comic books (well, Star Trek, Star Wars, and Mass Effect come pretty close)..
timetowaste85 wrote: I read an article that he was de-aged by the Cosmic Cube made human; someone/something that has spent a lot of time with Red Skull. Cosmic Cube responsible for this? Likely. I'm sure it'll be back to normal at some point...might involve time travel though. I guess those pesky FF or X-Men will have to get involved. They still have a monopoly on time travel, right?
That's my main issue with the complaints: we don't know anything. There's been no plot revealed, no characters have had a chance to state their reasoning or intent, nothing has been established except that Steve uttered two words, and they were "Hail Hydra". Thousands of people have already managed to assume that makes him literally Hitler.
timetowaste85 wrote: I read an article that he was de-aged by the Cosmic Cube made human; someone/something that has spent a lot of time with Red Skull. Cosmic Cube responsible for this? Likely. I'm sure it'll be back to normal at some point...might involve time travel though. I guess those pesky FF or X-Men will have to get involved. They still have a monopoly on time travel, right?
That's my main issue with the complaints: we don't know anything. There's been no plot revealed, no characters have had a chance to state their reasoning or intent, nothing has been established except that Steve uttered two words, and they were "Hail Hydra". Thousands of people have already managed to assume that makes him literally Hitler.
go look some more, the writers are already showing how he was an agent of Hydra before and how all his actions were nothing more then to aide Hydra. trust me if this was just because he said "Hail Hydra" at the end of a comic book then that would be nothing since he could be being sarcastic, go read the interviews, Marvel has come out saying he was a Hydra Sleeper Agent.
timetowaste85 wrote: I read an article that he was de-aged by the Cosmic Cube made human; someone/something that has spent a lot of time with Red Skull. Cosmic Cube responsible for this? Likely. I'm sure it'll be back to normal at some point...might involve time travel though. I guess those pesky FF or X-Men will have to get involved. They still have a monopoly on time travel, right?
That's my main issue with the complaints: we don't know anything. There's been no plot revealed, no characters have had a chance to state their reasoning or intent, nothing has been established except that Steve uttered two words, and they were "Hail Hydra". Thousands of people have already managed to assume that makes him literally Hitler.
go look some more, the writers are already showing how he was an agent of Hydra before and how all his actions were nothing more then to aide Hydra. trust me if this was just because he said "Hail Hydra" at the end of a comic book then that would be nothing since he could be being sarcastic, go read the interviews, Marvel has come out saying he was a Hydra Sleeper Agent.
That changes literally nothing.
What we know from the fact he's a sleeper agent:
He works for Hydra
Nothing more
What we know from the fact he said "Hail Hydra":
He works for Hydra
Nothing more
Neither of them provide any more information than the other; they're both pointless getting worked up about with the current information.
timetowaste85 wrote: I read an article that he was de-aged by the Cosmic Cube made human; someone/something that has spent a lot of time with Red Skull. Cosmic Cube responsible for this? Likely. I'm sure it'll be back to normal at some point...might involve time travel though. I guess those pesky FF or X-Men will have to get involved. They still have a monopoly on time travel, right?
That's my main issue with the complaints: we don't know anything. There's been no plot revealed, no characters have had a chance to state their reasoning or intent, nothing has been established except that Steve uttered two words, and they were "Hail Hydra". Thousands of people have already managed to assume that makes him literally Hitler.
go look some more, the writers are already showing how he was an agent of Hydra before and how all his actions were nothing more then to aide Hydra. trust me if this was just because he said "Hail Hydra" at the end of a comic book then that would be nothing since he could be being sarcastic, go read the interviews, Marvel has come out saying he was a Hydra Sleeper Agent.
That changes literally nothing.
What we know from the fact he's a sleeper agent:
He works for Hydra
Nothing more
What we know from the fact he said "Hail Hydra":
He works for Hydra
Nothing more
Neither of them provide any more information than the other; they're both pointless getting worked up about with the current information.
seriously do you read any of the articles? or just thinking its based off of a frame from a Comic book? ok he Killed Jack Flag, you know his patriotic buddy? if they did this with IronMan I wouldn't be too concerned since could see that happening, but not Captain America, and the above article was by an editor at Mavel and he said Caps evil and has always been, go read the article, Marvel is getting political and linking Trump with HYDRA.
I read the interview with Brevoort too. He flat out said "this is not a gimmick, as that is to appear for shock value. We want people talking about this and questioning how we'll get out of this. The seeds were planted two years ago."
Which means nothing is set-just that it's an arc in which Cap currently appears to be not what we've come to expect as Cap.
We all know the Cosmic Cube can bend time and space. I'm not going with "gimmick"...but I am going with time getting all fethed up and Cap being screwed around with.
timetowaste85 wrote: I read an article that he was de-aged by the Cosmic Cube made human; someone/something that has spent a lot of time with Red Skull. Cosmic Cube responsible for this? Likely. I'm sure it'll be back to normal at some point...might involve time travel though. I guess those pesky FF or X-Men will have to get involved. They still have a monopoly on time travel, right?
That's my main issue with the complaints: we don't know anything. There's been no plot revealed, no characters have had a chance to state their reasoning or intent, nothing has been established except that Steve uttered two words, and they were "Hail Hydra". Thousands of people have already managed to assume that makes him literally Hitler.
go look some more, the writers are already showing how he was an agent of Hydra before and how all his actions were nothing more then to aide Hydra. trust me if this was just because he said "Hail Hydra" at the end of a comic book then that would be nothing since he could be being sarcastic, go read the interviews, Marvel has come out saying he was a Hydra Sleeper Agent.
That changes literally nothing.
What we know from the fact he's a sleeper agent:
He works for Hydra
Nothing more
What we know from the fact he said "Hail Hydra":
He works for Hydra
Nothing more
Neither of them provide any more information than the other; they're both pointless getting worked up about with the current information.
seriously do you read any of the articles? or just thinking its based off of a frame from a Comic book? ok he Killed Jack Flag, you know his patriotic buddy? if they did this with IronMan I wouldn't be too concerned since could see that happening, but not Captain America, and the above article was by an editor at Mavel and he said Caps evil and has always been, go read the article, Marvel is getting political and linking Trump with HYDRA.
Issue 2 kind of winds the clock back a little bit and lays out exactly how and why things are the way they are. And it lays out a roadmap for where things are headed in the future. At this point, I don’t want to say too much definitively because I want people to read the comic books.
Again, I don’t want to say anything too definitively because we’re laying out the story. But we want to push that button. There should be a feeling of horror or unsettledness at the idea that somebody like this can secretly be part of this organization. There are perfectly normal people in the world who you would interact with on a professional level or personal level, and they seem like the salt of the earth but then it turns out they have some horrible secret — whether it’s that they don’t like a certain group of people or have bodies buried in their basement.
You should feel uneasy about the fact that everything you know and love about Steve Rogers can be upended.
To say it’s a gimmick implies that it’s done heedlessly just to shock. The proof is always going to be in the execution. So you’ll have to read the rest of the story to see.
To restate: what do we know? 1. Steve is a Hydra agent. 2. Nothing more.
To restate: what do we know? 1. Steve is a Hydra agent. 2. Nothing more.
1: Steve has been and always has been a Hydra Agent, 2: thats enough what would the reaction be if Marvel said Obama has always been and is a Terrorist? nuff said.
Even without getting into the politics of it, this is still gakky writing that should get Nick Spencer exiled to some F-list comic. Only an idiot believes that subverting expectations by doing the thing that makes the least possible sense makes for good storytelling.
To restate: what do we know? 1. Steve is a Hydra agent. 2. Nothing more.
1: Steve has been and always has been a Hydra Agent
1. Steve is a Hydra agent, yes, we have established this as the lone piece of information we have.
2: thats enough
That's enough for you, is it? 'A fictional superhero I like turned out to be a bad guy for reasons nobody currently knows--but we have been told will be explained--but who cares about reasons anyway, lynch everybody involved because I don't like the concept?'
AlexHolker wrote: Even without getting into the politics of it, this is still gakky writing that should get Nick Spencer exiled to some F-list comic. Only an idiot believes that subverting expectations by doing the thing that makes the least possible sense makes for good storytelling.
Nick Spencer as has been pointed out has been very political and hes pushing his political ideals into the comic, this will backfire on Marvel and hurt them, most people read comics to get away from real world politics.
AlexHolker wrote: Even without getting into the politics of it, this is still gakky writing that should get Nick Spencer exiled to some F-list comic. Only an idiot believes that subverting expectations by doing the thing that makes the least possible sense makes for good storytelling.
Nick Spencer as has been pointed out has been very political and hes pushing his political ideals into the comic, this will backfire on Marvel and hurt them, most people read comics to get away from real world politics.
So the comic doesn't get bought, the idea gets abandoned, is no longer considered canon.
Where does the need for any sort of full boycott, or anything close to the level of furore people unleashed after this, begin if you're already convinced it'll be a failure? Let the sales do the talking, and if it's awful, it'll kill itself off; if it survives, then obviously enough people enjoy it to keep it going.
AlexHolker wrote: Even without getting into the politics of it, this is still gakky writing that should get Nick Spencer exiled to some F-list comic. Only an idiot believes that subverting expectations by doing the thing that makes the least possible sense makes for good storytelling.
Nick Spencer as has been pointed out has been very political and hes pushing his political ideals into the comic, this will backfire on Marvel and hurt them, most people read comics to get away from real world politics.
So the comic doesn't get bought, the idea gets abandoned, is no longer considered canon.
Where does the need for any sort of full boycott, or anything close to the level of furore people unleashed after this, begin if you're already convinced it'll be a failure? Let the sales do the talking, and if it's awful, it'll kill itself off; if it survives, then obviously enough people enjoy it to keep it going.
because by me BoyCotting Marvel I am sending a message to Marvel "Bad Marvel, Bad" already called my local comic shop and told him to cancel my subs for any Marvel comics, and funny thing is he told me I wasn't the only one to do that today.
AlexHolker wrote: Even without getting into the politics of it, this is still gakky writing that should get Nick Spencer exiled to some F-list comic. Only an idiot believes that subverting expectations by doing the thing that makes the least possible sense makes for good storytelling.
Nick Spencer as has been pointed out has been very political and hes pushing his political ideals into the comic, this will backfire on Marvel and hurt them, most people read comics to get away from real world politics.
So the comic doesn't get bought, the idea gets abandoned, is no longer considered canon.
Where does the need for any sort of full boycott, or anything close to the level of furore people unleashed after this, begin if you're already convinced it'll be a failure? Let the sales do the talking, and if it's awful, it'll kill itself off; if it survives, then obviously enough people enjoy it to keep it going.
because by me BoyCotting Marvel I am sending a message to Marvel "Bad Marvel, Bad" already called my local comic shop and told him to cancel my subs for any Marvel comics, and funny thing is he told me I wasn't the only one to do that today.
And if this new comic still goes strong afterwards, will you re-sub? Clearly if it isn't a flop despite your boycott, enough people like it to either make up for lost sales, or to give them enough of a thumbs up that they keep going with it. Or will you continue withholding your custom until they start to produce only the content you want, and screw anyone who wants anything new?
Yes, this is the shocking moment that comes from the very end of today’s Captain America: Steve Rogers #1, the new Marvel ongoing series that picks up with the newly-rejuvenated (if you’ve not kept up, Steve’s spent the past few years being a wrinkly old man with no superpowers, hence why Sam Wilson, a.k.a. The Falcon, took on the Cap mantle) Steve Rogers, once again Captain America, taking the fight to his oldest foes.
Except they’re actually his oldest friends. This first issue tells two stories: the first being the modern-set adventures of Steve, joined by his girlfriend Sharon Carter, and c-list patriotically-themed heroes Jack Flag and Free Spirit (remember Jack Flag’s goofy boom box laser gun? It doesn’t matter anymore, Steve throws Jack Flag out of a plane at the end of this issue, because he’s secretly super eeeeviiiiillll) as they try to root out the Red Skull’s resurgent Hydra, which is tapping into the very timely themes of youth unemployment and immigrant-hating to drive recruitment for a new era of the terrorist organization.
The second is the framing device, set in 1926, which reveals that after a chance encounter with a woman who saves her from her abusive husband, Steve’s mother Sarah is wooed into joining Hydra in its earliest days—setting up that young Steve simply followed in his darling mother’s footsteps as an agent of evil, simply playing the long con of being the most patriotic hero in America for three quarters of a century.
And if this new comic still goes strong afterwards, will you re-sub? Clearly if it isn't a flop despite your boycott, enough people like it to either make up for lost sales, or to give them enough of a thumbs up that they keep going with it. Or will you continue withholding your custom until they start to produce only the content you want, and screw anyone who wants anything new?
It is my choice, and my choice alone, did I tell you to boycott Marvel? did i tell anyone to Boycott Marvel? the answer is no to both this is my choice and from what i'm hearing i'm not the only one who has decided this.
Yes, this is the shocking moment that comes from the very end of today’s Captain America: Steve Rogers #1, the new Marvel ongoing series that picks up with the newly-rejuvenated (if you’ve not kept up, Steve’s spent the past few years being a wrinkly old man with no superpowers, hence why Sam Wilson, a.k.a. The Falcon, took on the Cap mantle) Steve Rogers, once again Captain America, taking the fight to his oldest foes.
Except they’re actually his oldest friends. This first issue tells two stories: the first being the modern-set adventures of Steve, joined by his girlfriend Sharon Carter, and c-list patriotically-themed heroes Jack Flag and Free Spirit (remember Jack Flag’s goofy boom box laser gun? It doesn’t matter anymore, Steve throws Jack Flag out of a plane at the end of this issue, because he’s secretly super eeeeviiiiillll) as they try to root out the Red Skull’s resurgent Hydra, which is tapping into the very timely themes of youth unemployment and immigrant-hating to drive recruitment for a new era of the terrorist organization.
The second is the framing device, set in 1926, which reveals that after a chance encounter with a woman who saves her from her abusive husband, Steve’s mother Sarah is wooed into joining Hydra in its earliest days—setting up that young Steve simply followed in his darling mother’s footsteps as an agent of evil, simply playing the long con of being the most patriotic hero in America for three quarters of a century.
The irony of your use of this this quote is that it comes from this article, rather aptly named: [url=http://io9.gizmodo.com/everyone-please-stop-freaking-out-about-that-ridiculou-1778646082]
Everyone, Please Stop Freaking Out About That Ridiculous Captain America Reveal[/url]
The irony of your use of this this quote is that it comes from this article, rather aptly named
That site still thinks this is a gimmick though, big difference since nobody can seriously believe that Marvel would do something like this while not realizing Cap has already killed one patriotic good guy and Marvel has let a political activist into their staff.
And if this new comic still goes strong afterwards, will you re-sub? Clearly if it isn't a flop despite your boycott, enough people like it to either make up for lost sales, or to give them enough of a thumbs up that they keep going with it. Or will you continue withholding your custom until they start to produce only the content you want, and screw anyone who wants anything new?
Asterios wrote: It is my choice, and my choice alone, did I tell you to boycott Marvel? did i tell anyone to Boycott Marvel? the answer is no to both this is my choice and from what i'm hearing i'm not the only one who has decided this.
You didn't answer my question. Not even close.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asterios wrote: That site still thinks this is a gimmick though, big difference since nobody can seriously believe that Marvel would do something like this while not realizing Cap has already killed one patriotic good guy and Marvel has let a political activist into their staff.
If it's a gimmick, then where's the issue? Like every other hero-turned-evil gimmick, it'll be nicely resolved with the hero realising the error of his ways, or some sort of other deus ex machina that makes about as little sense as the plot did to begin with.
To quote the article's penultimate sentence:
But please, let’s not pretend this is real, or permanent, or won’t be utterly undone in a storyarc or two.
This just further points to it not being anywhere close to a big deal.
yes I did, I don't care whether this comic is good or bad to others, it is not for me which also tells me that if Marvel is willing to do this what else will they do? I would rather not find out and hence my Boycott of all things Marvel. to answer your question, this is my choice and my right. as to not being a flop something tells me this will be cancelled real soon since Marvel is already taking heat from this.
furthermore the editor has already said this is not a gimmick.
yes I did, I don't care whether this comic is good or bad to others, it is not for me which also tells me that if Marvel is willing to do this what else will they do? I would rather not find out and hence my Boycott of all things Marvel. to answer your question, this is my choice and my right. as to not being a flop something tells me this will be cancelled real soon since Marvel is already taking heat from this.
My question concerned whether you would re-sub if the comic went against current opinion and actually proved popular. You replied with something about it being your choice to boycott, which wasn't what I questioned.
That said, now you've clarified a bit, would I be right in assuming that until Marvel produces nothing but content you personally agree with, you will not patronise them in any form?
If that is the case, then why post about it on a public forum? Especially since you've stated your intent isn't to convince anyone else to follow in your footsteps. Dakka has so many contradicting opinions on just about everything that for everyone you find who shares your idea of ideal content, there will be many more who don't, may themselves boycott if something they didn't like but you did was published, and you would probably feel about as puzzled by their reaction as I am about people who are so vehemently against this new comic on the grounds that they simply don't like the implications.
yes I did, I don't care whether this comic is good or bad to others, it is not for me which also tells me that if Marvel is willing to do this what else will they do? I would rather not find out and hence my Boycott of all things Marvel. to answer your question, this is my choice and my right. as to not being a flop something tells me this will be cancelled real soon since Marvel is already taking heat from this.
My question concerned whether you would re-sub if the comic went against current opinion and actually proved popular. You replied with something about it being your choice to boycott, which wasn't what I questioned.
That said, now you've clarified a bit, would I be right in assuming that until Marvel produces nothing but content you personally agree with, you will not patronise them in any form?
If that is the case, then why post about it on a public forum? Especially since you've stated your intent isn't to convince anyone else to follow in your footsteps. Dakka has so many contradicting opinions on just about everything that for everyone you find who shares your idea of ideal content, there will be many more who don't, may themselves boycott if something they didn't like but you did was published, and you would probably feel about as puzzled by their reaction as I am about people who are so vehemently against this new comic on the grounds that they simply don't like the implications.
then let them boycott that is their right to do so, its not a matter of my opinion but what many of us were raised believing, Cap has always been the good the guy, the American boyscout, he is america, he was our hopes and expectations by being our American Symbol of purity and justice and this new writer has essentially said America is evil, plain and simple.
That's an issue of personal belief and identification, not of Marvel. If you believe Captain America is America, more power to you, but in the course of acknowledging other's rights, also acknowledge that that opinion isn't shared by everyone, and that Captain America is a globally-known name. He isn't America's, he's everyone's, and will obviously mean something different to others.
Personally, my belief is that Captain America is just a fictional superhero created purely for entertainment purposes. He doesn't represent anything more sophisticated than the ideals of a world that in some iterations is based on our own, but at the end of the day is still fictional.
The only way I could dislike Marvel for this is if they just made a bad comic book, and I just wouldn't buy it.
At the end of the day, Marvel create comics, and leave the interpretation of its content up to the reader. I don't blame them for their topics, I blame people who think that because they don't personally like it, it shouldn't exist.
Avatar 720 wrote: That's an issue of personal belief and identification, not of Marvel. If you believe Captain America is America, more power to you, but in the course of acknowledging other's rights, also acknowledge that that opinion isn't shared by everyone, and that Captain America is a globally-known name. He isn't America's, he's everyone's, and will obviously mean something different to others.
Personally, my belief is that Captain America is just a fictional superhero created purely for entertainment purposes. He doesn't represent anything more sophisticated than the ideals of a world that in some iterations is based on our own, but at the end of the day is still fictional.
The only way I could dislike Marvel for this is if they just made a bad comic book, and I just wouldn't buy it.
At the end of the day, Marvel create comics, and leave the interpretation of its content up to the reader. I don't blame them for their topics, I blame people who think that because they don't personally like it, it shouldn't exist.
you should read the history of Captain America and his creation and why, then you will realize why the hullabaloo about this.
Avatar 720 wrote: That's an issue of personal belief and identification, not of Marvel. If you believe Captain America is America, more power to you, but in the course of acknowledging other's rights, also acknowledge that that opinion isn't shared by everyone, and that Captain America is a globally-known name. He isn't America's, he's everyone's, and will obviously mean something different to others.
Personally, my belief is that Captain America is just a fictional superhero created purely for entertainment purposes. He doesn't represent anything more sophisticated than the ideals of a world that in some iterations is based on our own, but at the end of the day is still fictional.
The only way I could dislike Marvel for this is if they just made a bad comic book, and I just wouldn't buy it.
At the end of the day, Marvel create comics, and leave the interpretation of its content up to the reader. I don't blame them for their topics, I blame people who think that because they don't personally like it, it shouldn't exist.
you should read the history of Captain America and his creation and why, then you will realize why the hullabaloo about this.
So you don't accept that other people may hold differing, but equally valid, opinions on fictional creations? That's the impression I get from essentially being told 'you just don't get it'. You seem to believe that the way you view this is the only way--evidenced by simply telling me to read the lore and I'll be enlightened.
People see different things in all creative forms. There is no one absolute truth. The Hobbit does not mean X and X alone. The Mona Lisa doesn't evoke Y emotion to the exclusion of all else, and if you just look at it closer you'll realise why.
The idea that people who don't share your beliefs and opinions are simply ignorant is just a lazy way of dismissing dissent.
Avatar 720 wrote: That's an issue of personal belief and identification, not of Marvel. If you believe Captain America is America, more power to you, but in the course of acknowledging other's rights, also acknowledge that that opinion isn't shared by everyone, and that Captain America is a globally-known name. He isn't America's, he's everyone's, and will obviously mean something different to others.
Personally, my belief is that Captain America is just a fictional superhero created purely for entertainment purposes. He doesn't represent anything more sophisticated than the ideals of a world that in some iterations is based on our own, but at the end of the day is still fictional.
The only way I could dislike Marvel for this is if they just made a bad comic book, and I just wouldn't buy it.
At the end of the day, Marvel create comics, and leave the interpretation of its content up to the reader. I don't blame them for their topics, I blame people who think that because they don't personally like it, it shouldn't exist.
you should read the history of Captain America and his creation and why, then you will realize why the hullabaloo about this.
So you don't accept that other people may hold differing, but equally valid, opinions on fictional creations? That's the impression I get from essentially being told 'you just don't get it'. You seem to believe that the way you view this is the only way--evidenced by simply telling me to read the lore and I'll be enlightened.
People see different things in all creative forms. There is no one absolute truth. The Hobbit does not mean X and X alone. The Mona Lisa doesn't evoke Y emotion to the exclusion of all else, and if you just look at it closer you'll realise why.
The idea that people who don't share your beliefs and opinions are simply ignorant is just a lazy way of dismissing dissent.
Did I say they were ignorant? no but I repeat go into the History of Captain America and why he was created. for 76 years one thing has been constant, its like if the sun decided to rise in the west instead of the east.
Yes, you did. You said that I need to read the history of Captain America and then I would understand. The implication there is clearly that I lack some sort of required knowledge and I am, therefore, ignorant.
Avatar 720 wrote: Yes, you did. You said that I need to read the history of Captain America and then I would understand. The implication there is clearly that I lack some sort of required knowledge and I am, therefore, ignorant.
No it means you would understand my stance and that of many others, which before you sounded confused why such animosity towards the change.
Avatar 720 wrote: So you don't accept that other people may hold differing, but equally valid, opinions on fictional creations?
No, I don't. It's like the idiots who take Grey Knight and Sister of Battle incorruptibility as some kind of challenge. If you write a story about Grey Knights falling to Chaos, you are objectively wrong.
I barely know anything about the comic book side of Capt. America, but does anyone else expect it just to end up being another plot by bad guys? Either this Steve Rodgers is a clone, or time travel was used to enable some brainwashing, or some such "evil scheme". Which will be undone by his allies, or some sort of inner-demon battle where Steve wrests control back?
I remember people went this crazy back when he was killed.
So Marvel Comics decided to change many characters to minorities and women (female Thor, female Wolverine, Asian Hulk, black Captain America, Muslim Ms. Marvel) then bring back one white hero and make him a villain. That's a good marketing team.
Of course AegisGrimm may also be right that in the end it may be just a way to get some attention.
Even if it is just a stunt the whole thing seems ill considered.
Asterios wrote: after reading an article today I have decided to Boycott Marvel and anything dealing with Marvel from Comics to movies to TV shows, why you ask, it appears Marvel has made Captain America into a sleeper agent for HYDRA, in essence they have turned Captain America a symbol who stands for all that is right with America into a Nazi, I consider this reprehensible and disrespectful to America and all it stands for.
You remember that time that Captain America died? Yeah, that didn't stick.
You remember that time when Steve lost his powers, became an old man, and Sam took over as Cap? Yeah, that didn't stick.
So let me ask you: D'ya think this Hydra reveal will stick?
There's a saying: Nature abhors a vacuum. For comics it's similar. Comics abhor not having a status quo.
Asterios wrote: after reading an article today I have decided to Boycott Marvel and anything dealing with Marvel from Comics to movies to TV shows, why you ask, it appears Marvel has made Captain America into a sleeper agent for HYDRA, in essence they have turned Captain America a symbol who stands for all that is right with America into a Nazi, I consider this reprehensible and disrespectful to America and all it stands for.
You remember that time that Captain America died? Yeah, that didn't stick.
You remember that time when Steve lost his powers, became an old man, and Sam took over as Cap? Yeah, that didn't stick.
Remember that time when Cap was a werewolf? That didn't stick (though it should have).
I'm really not seeing the problem here, it actually sounds like the kind of comic I'd want to follow (I say this as someone who pretty much gave up on Marvel somewhere between AvX and Marvel Now). It's forcing you to question things; if I'd read the issue, and seen that final panel, I'd be counting the days until the next one to work out where it all goes from here.
Closest comparison I can think of is the end of Arrow Series 3 (massive spoilers, don't click if you ever intend to watch it)
Spoiler:
4-5 episodes from the end, a plot arc begins in which Arrow throws in his lot with the League of Assassins, becoming apprentice to Ra's Al Ghul and appearing to go full Dark Side. In the last episode of the series, it was of course revealed that this was all a trick in the first place, he had to make it look good to get close enough to take out Ra's ect... But the intervening episodes were tense and enthralling purely because you start questioning everything you think you know about the character. You're horrified when they turn, betrayed as they go darker and darker, then ultimately rewarded when all the details are revealed.
I predict a very similar ending to this Cap thing. Either it'll be some time travel thing, or he's a double-triple-quadruple agent, or mind controlled... either way, it'll all fall into place in a few issues time and good ol' Nazi-bashing Cap will be back.
Honestly, I think anything to do with Superior Spiderman, or making Jane Foster into the actual Thor*, or writing Reed and Franklin Richards as the gods behind a new multiverse or whatever happened at the end of Secret Wars were much more stupid decisions.
*I've no problem with her wielding Miljnor, using the powers ect, it's just the fact that unlike anyone else who's ever used the hammer, she is actually calling herself Thor, which makes no sense to me.
timetowaste85 wrote: I read an article that he was de-aged by the Cosmic Cube made human; someone/something that has spent a lot of time with Red Skull. Cosmic Cube responsible for this? Likely. I'm sure it'll be back to normal at some point...might involve time travel though. I guess those pesky FF or X-Men will have to get involved. They still have a monopoly on time travel, right?
I mean, the Red Skull did literally the exact same thing to Falcon, so that is my current theory as well. RS messing with his backstory via Kobik. (Either that or the standard double-agent play)
Asterios wrote: after reading an article today I have decided to Boycott Marvel and anything dealing with Marvel from Comics to movies to TV shows, why you ask, it appears Marvel has made Captain America into a sleeper agent for HYDRA, in essence they have turned Captain America a symbol who stands for all that is right with America into a Nazi, I consider this reprehensible and disrespectful to America and all it stands for.
You remember that time that Captain America died? Yeah, that didn't stick.
You remember that time when Steve lost his powers, became an old man, and Sam took over as Cap? Yeah, that didn't stick.
So let me ask you: D'ya think this Hydra reveal will stick?
There's a saying: Nature abhors a vacuum. For comics it's similar. Comics abhor not having a status quo.
I'm still upset that they killed of Peter Parker and Doc Ock took over his brain forever. Doesn't look they're ever going to reverse it either, because the writers and executives have been going on about how Peter Parker is dead and not coming back.
Wait, what do you mean they reversed it at the end of the storyline?
timetowaste85 wrote: I read an article that he was de-aged by the Cosmic Cube made human; someone/something that has spent a lot of time with Red Skull. Cosmic Cube responsible for this? Likely. I'm sure it'll be back to normal at some point...might involve time travel though. I guess those pesky FF or X-Men will have to get involved. They still have a monopoly on time travel, right?
That's my main issue with the complaints: we don't know anything. There's been no plot revealed, no characters have had a chance to state their reasoning or intent, nothing has been established except that Steve uttered two words, and they were "Hail Hydra". Thousands of people have already managed to assume that makes him literally Hitler.
go look some more, the writers are already showing how he was an agent of Hydra before and how all his actions were nothing more then to aide Hydra. trust me if this was just because he said "Hail Hydra" at the end of a comic book then that would be nothing since he could be being sarcastic, go read the interviews, Marvel has come out saying he was a Hydra Sleeper Agent.
Obviously. I mean, now is the prefect time to reveal that he was a hydra agent, not any of those times that he had Cosmic Cubes or was wielding the Infinity Gauntlet.
Seriously. The guy just had his reality rewritten by a sentient cosmic cube. A sentient Cosmic Cube to whom the Red Skull had been presenting as an authority figure (in disguise). It is not the slightest bit of a stretch to think that maybe some sort of crimson-faced-mischief has gone on in the process of said reality-warping.
I'm guessing this has knob-all to do with some shoddy "Cap is a sleeper agent" storyline, and much more with the whole "I don't like RL politics and ZOMG MARVEL STOP MAKING FUN OF GLORIOUS LEADER TRUMP" angle.
Lots of things done in comics don't have much staying power, especially death, but does that mean they should be beyond criticism for the editorial choices they make?
Right now I think the big two are striving for "mindblows" over good, solid, patient storytelling. A cinematic influence at work, perhaps? I dunno.
Cap being a decades-long Hydra sleeper agent is simply a dumb premise, no matter where the story leads or how much it "sticks." You don't have to look any farther than other Cap-related characters (Bucky and Sharon) to see fairly shocking retcons that were successful and sensible.
It's certainly a gutsy move considering the inherent conservatism in geekland toward geek material, and especially while their Distinguished Competition's newest event serves as an apology for their universe's darker tone of late. At least on the face of it that is, because the New 52 was never really that dark IMO, and Rebirth's mindblow is ultimately a dark thing involving dark characters (even as the metatext seems to place blame at the feet of those characters' creation and existence).
Anyway back OT, I'll just do what I always do...buy the books I'm enjoying and skip the ones I'm not. *shrug*
Melissia wrote: Come to DC. It sucks just as much, but at least DC's version of One More Day isn't such a massive, prominent retcon like OMD was.
Unless you're Superman. And I think Rebirth weaves a tangled web. This probably isn't the place to discuss it.
I remember when Hal Jordan went nuts, then was killed by New Lantern, then cam back as the spectre, then died again, then came back as Young Hal Jordan for a few years, then went back to his own time, now there is some new Hal Jordan Not-Lantern comic.
Weird gak happens.
He was also in jail, serving time for a DUI when Sinestro trained him in Emerald Dawn (or Emerald Dawn II, the Dawning)
I wrote a really inspired, week reasoned and quite frankly awesome post that really articulated my thoughts, examining it from multiple angles.
Then my tablet crashed. So, executive summary time. I understand the need for dreams and drive for sales and wanting to take characters to new places etc.
But, I think comics and stormtroopers are Important with a capital I. They're not just mechanisms for dollars and merchandising. Ultimately they are a modern mythology, morality tales for the modern world. They have a great power and we all know what comes with.
Cap has taught many lessons over the years, many important lessons, for people young and old. To reinterpret those lessons for agenda (even if it is just advertising and sales at the end of the day), I'm not cool with that.
I think that ultimately I really am very much less of an a-hole in would otherwise be and part of the reason for that is because of mini-Compel watching the '92 X-men cartoon.
If there is some kind of cosmic cubing/reality warping going on though, this happening to Cap is no less plausible than it happening to anyone else. In fact, if the Red Skull is behind it as it appears, then what greater victory for him than turning his greatest enemy into his slave? It'd be like Vader turning Luke to the Dark Side, or The Joker getting Batman to kill, it's tragic because it undermines the values of the character, but narratively of course they're going to try it.
I get that Cap represents 'American values' or the like to some people, but at the end of the day, he's a fictional character in a narrative, and within that narrative, this makes sense.
Again, I think we need to be careful not to feed geek culture's often childish, braying, caustic attitude toward anything that isn't exactly like what's come before. There are geeks out there that are still hung up on (and truly bothered by) Superman's lack of red underwear, for crissakes.
Retcons done well can be really interesting and even add to a character. Again, Bucky and Sharon are great examples right in Cap's own mythos. The issue is that this particular big reveal is dumb based on what we know so far. It takes very little imagination or effort to take a decades-old character who stands for something, invert it, and then declare *that* was the truth of it ALL ALONG.
"The Joker is revealed to have been an undercover law enforcement agent ALL ALONG!" Dumb, right?
That's not what appears to be happening (from what I've read around the thing, I haven't actually read the issue in question). It doesn't seem to be 'Cap has always been a double agent since his first appearance ever', more 'in this reality, which has probably been restructured by the Red Skull, this version of Cap is a Hydra sleeper agent'. If reality-altering powers are indeed in play this is to all intents and purposes an alternate/false timeline or universe. This is not the Cap that we've read all these years, this is something new and different.
They're not saying 'When Cap joined the Avengers in the 60s, or took a side in Civil War, he was working for Hydra the whole time', at least as far as I can tell on the very limited info we have at present. It's not really a retcon, it's a revelation and a shock but it doesn't really change anything. I'm not going to go back and read some Silver Age Cap comics and thing 'damn, this guy was secretly a Nazi'.
Whether or not it's dumb is of course down to personal preference, but I for one am not in any way offended or put off and will be interested to see how it all pans out... Though as I mentioned before, I'm not exactly keeping up with current Marvel as far as the comics go.
Paradigm wrote: That's not what appears to be happening (from what I've read around the thing, I haven't actually read the issue in question). It doesn't seem to be 'Cap has always been a double agent since his first appearance ever', more 'in this reality, which has probably been restructured by the Red Skull, this version of Cap is a Hydra sleeper agent'. If reality-altering powers are indeed in play this is to all intents and purposes an alternate/false timeline or universe. This is not the Cap that we've read all these years, this is something new and different.
They're not saying 'When Cap joined the Avengers in the 60s, or took a side in Civil War, he was working for Hydra the whole time', at least as far as I can tell on the very limited info we have at present. It's not really a retcon, it's a revelation and a shock but it doesn't really change anything. I'm not going to go back and read some Silver Age Cap comics and thing 'damn, this guy was secretly a Nazi'.
Whether or not it's dumb is of course down to personal preference, but I for one am not in any way offended or put off and will be interested to see how it all pans out... Though as I mentioned before, I'm not exactly keeping up with current Marvel as far as the comics go.
Actually Cap's mom was a Hydra Agent and he followed her lead, so yeah now according to Marvel he has always been and will be a Hydra sleeper agent.
And actually this won't work with all the Telepath's he has had contact with someone would have noticed.
Megacorps have successfully mined comics for IP elements that can be reprocessed into profitable mainstream licenses. And suddenly people expect quality? Comics have always had a miserable reputation, which they have mostly earned fair and square. If you think this is dumb and transparently exploitative ... welcome to comics books.
@Asterios: Again, in what appears to be a restructured reality this version of Cap is Hydra, but personally that doesn't prompt me to view any of his previous stuff prior to the seeds of this being sewn (2014 was cited in one of the articles, but I believe this whole Red Skull/Cosmic Cube thing is more recent). The universe has been restructured and reset and blown up and put back together just in the last year with Secret Wars, so who's to say things didn't happen very differently in the new setting?
It's all too nebulous and vague at the moment to pin anything down, but I'm confident this will reach a sensible conclusion and be explained at least somewhat rationally.
Manchu wrote: Megacorps have successfully mined comics for IP elements that can be reprocessed into profitable mainstream licenses. And suddenly people expect quality? Comics have always had a miserable reputation, which they have mostly earned fair and square. If you think this is dumb and transparently exploitative ... welcome to comics books.
Really not sure what you're trying to say here. To say 'comics have always had a miserable reputation' and that we shouldn't be surprised when they're not good is like saying 'books are crap' or 'films are unimaginative', it's far too broad to actually mean anything. There are some comics out there that I'm sure are utter crap, but equally there are plenty that are of considerable artistic merit or as well written as any good novel. Dismissing the entire spectrum of comics and suggesting the readers are naive for expecting quality when said quality is frequently delivered just seems needlessly judgemental of a genre and media form with a lot to offer. If I'm misconstruing I apologies, but I just don't see what you're saying here.
There are no longer degrees of dumb and exploitative? All stories are equal in all ways and beyond reproach? I think gorgon is right that some hold on to hard to older iterations/ideas but it also seems some are way to lenient and willing to excuse anything by that same measure. There has to be something in between "it is just comics and people who don't like something are silly" and "OMG WORST THING EVAR" *foams at mouth*
Paradigm wrote: Really not sure what you're trying to say here.
lol sure you do, why even bother with that prologue? Anyway:
Paradigm wrote: There are some comics out there that I'm sure are utter crap, but equally there are plenty that are of considerable artistic merit
Or wait maybe you didn't read + understand my post (that you quoted and to which you ostensibly responded)?
Manchu wrote: Comics have always had a miserable reputation, which they have mostly earned fair and square.
But anyhow I think you are pretty close to getting my point, you just want to exaggerate it to make this non-remark seem more credible:
Paradigm wrote: Dismissing the entire spectrum of comics and suggesting the readers are naive for expecting quality when said quality is frequently delivered just seems needlessly judgemental.
To the extent that there is a "spectrum" of comics, we aren't talking about that. We're talking about mainstream super hero comic books, as I'm sure you actually already understand, all rhetorical posturing aside. And there have been plenty of 'em since the 1930s. Thousands upon thousands of them. And of these, the vast majority, I mean overwhelmingly so, are written, drawn, and printed with no higher aim than to distribute - I won't even go so far as "to sell" because how anyone thinks some of this could sell, especially looking at the existing numbers, is beyond me. So we're talking really like a needle of good in an ocean of garbage. This idea of making Cap a Hydra Sleeper Agent is straight out of the well-stocked landfill of trashy comic book tropes. It is absolutely par for the course.
Now that said, I like trashy comic book soap opera junk to a certain extent. There is a difference between liking something and something being good.
@Ahtman: If you're referring to my comments there, that's not what I'm going for, I'm simply saying that personally I find this particular plot hook an intriguing one that in no way offends or upsets me, and I'm willing to give it a shot and see how it develops rather than panning it straight away based on one issue of a new run.
Trust me, there are many things in the comic world I consider very, very dumb indeed, not least what DC have done with Superman in the last week (I seem to be one of the few that actually found the N52 version far more compelling a character than the pre-Flashpoint one), this is just not one of them! But each to their own, of course!
@Manchu: It was genuine on my part, thanks for clarifying. I see what you're referring to now, even if I don't entirely agree. Thanks for clarifying. Personally I'd say that the vast majority of mainstream superhero comics I've read have been very enjoyable affairs, but that's just because I love the premise, I love superheroes and I find them entertaining even if they're in some cases not works of art.
Sure, I amended my post before seeing your response - I like it too, the same way I like junk food every once in a while. I don't pull up to Burger King for filet mignon ... or try to convince anyone that onion rings are good for you.
Paradigm wrote: @Ahtman: If you're referring to my comments there
I'm not referring to any specific comments, just what appears to be a trend happening as far as criticism of comic story lines are concerned.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Paradigm wrote: , not least what DC have done with Superman in the last week (I seem to be one of the few that actually found the N52 version far more compelling a character than the pre-Flashpoint one)
What happened in the last week? I haven't been keeping up lately.
Ahtman - as a kid I thought Knightfall was great and I loved X-Factor ... arguably some of the most exploitative developments in 1990s comics (let's just ... not talk about Spawn). Exploitation works, I guess, on its intended victims. Lesson being, it's not so much that there needs to be degrees of garbage but more of a "one man's garbage" issue, or as I like to call it nowadays "The Phantom Menace Conundrum."
Paradigm wrote: , not least what DC have done with Superman in the last week (I seem to be one of the few that actually found the N52 version far more compelling a character than the pre-Flashpoint one)
What happened in the last week? I haven't been keeping up lately.
I didn't mind the New 52 Superman to be honest.
Big Spoilers from Rebirth:
Spoiler:
The N52 Superman is killed, and replaced by the pre-Flashpoint Supes (outside underwear and all) who is now back in the main universe through some complicated reason. This is among a raft of other changes that bring back a lot of the pre-Flashpoint continuity elements and merge them (with vary degrees of success and logic) with the N52. There are also 3 Jokers now, because reasons...
Probably worth giving Rebirth its own thread for further discussion, rather than going on a tangent in this one.
I hate to say, it is comics.
Pretty much anything and everything can happen.
Then can all be whisked away as an alternate earth thing or all just a dream borrowing from a soap opera.
They just increasingly become a writer's/artist's sandbox.
The OP is proclaiming it is being used as a litterbox however.
Easy for me to say until they write that Peter Parker had been eaten long ago by the original parasite suit and Venom is just it's angry child.
chromedog wrote: Come to 2000AD.
Dredd doesn't care who mr-patriot pants works for. Creep's goin' down to the cubes anyway.
I've read 2 marvel superhero comics in my life - 1 spiderman, 1 cap) and a handful of DC stuff. I found Dredd and never looked back tbh.
You might like "Marshal Law" then.
It is more like "Lobo" meets "Dredd" but every bit as strange.
I also liked a character from GW for Necromunda: "The Redeemer" has a similar vibe.
Still, "boycott Marvel", for Captain America not being the boy scout envisioned seems harsh.
I still keep an eye on Spiderman since he was my childhood favorite.
It is more like "Lobo" meets "Dredd" but every bit as strange.
I also liked a character from GW for Necromunda: "The Redeemer" has a similar vibe.
I HAVE read Marshall Law. It's a Pat Mills thing. It's a brit thing. They don't tend to do overly happy and optimistic future schtick.
The Redeemer seemed to borrow too heavily from a Torquemada vibe (as in the futuristic one from 2000AD) for me - and I really don't dig on the "burn everything KKK " vibe that that faction has in that game.
I'm not really a comics reader, though. Not because I think it's a "childish" thing or "immature" or whatever, just that I just don't get into them.
Are there still Warhammer comics being made? I remember reading a few a while ago. Their quality was...erratic. Sometimes it was awesome, other times...eh. I think the best one I read so far was the one about an Imperial Guard officer somehow getting covered in green goo, which tricked a bunch of orks into thinking he was a deformed grot. The warboss kept him as a good luck charm
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Are there still Warhammer comics being made? I remember reading a few a while ago. Their quality was...erratic. Sometimes it was awesome, other times...eh.
I think the best one I read so far was the one about an Imperial Guard officer somehow getting covered in green goo, which tricked a bunch of orks into thinking he was a deformed grot. The warboss kept him as a good luck charm
Titan Comics are publishing new ones, starting in September.
Rewatched the Civil War movie yesterday. Still don't understand how people are getting that Cap is gay for Bucky. Bucky was his best friend in the world, he watched him "die" and saw him come back as a slave. They're also both two men trapped outside of their own time, and Cap has always been about saving people. Plus he's with Peggy's niece! Seriously...calling him gay for Bucky....just no. Straight up idiocy. This is the story of a man desperate to save the only connection to his childhood and his old life. Can anyone on here truly say they wouldn't do the same for their best friend? Hell, I know I would! (If I was super strong and had a shield that gave the middle finger to physics).
Alpharius wrote: I haven't really been seeing a lot of that at all, so...probably the classic 'tempest in a teacup'/non-issue?
If you go online, and look up the Captain America Hydra thing, this is associated. And all over Facebook. I had links sent to me by three separate friends before I even knew it was a thing (mostly because I tend to avoid most social media, except here).
I'm a rather avid twitter user, and the #GiveCaptainAmericaABoyfriend and #SayNoToHydraCap trends were absolutely huge. If you're not a big user of social media then you'll probably have missed it, but it took those sorts of platforms by storm.
Yeah, it was trending for a while on Twitter as well. It's quite a big 'thing' overall.
This article - Fandom is Broken touches on it a bit too. I have mixed feelings about the article. EG It's not "entitlement" to say, "I don't like this and therefore I'm not going to buy it, but if you did this, I would like it and therefore buy it."
On the other hand, this is downright freaking scary.
J___ E____ wrote:As a Former Active Duty US Marine and a Disabled Veteran, I want you to know that when I joined the Marines back in 95’ I did so under a strict Code of Ethics. Truth, Honor and Justice. This Code was inspired by Steve Rogers. I knew I could never be the person he was, I just wasn’t mentally built for it, but it gave me something to strive for. Yes, the Character of Stever Rogers AKA Captain America is a fictional one, but it is also one that emboydies what the Idea Human Being, not just American should strive to be. Steve Rogers never claimed to be perfect, but he tried his best every day to do the right thing no matter what.
For the last 21 years I have modeled my own Moral Code after the belief that I would NEVER tell a Lie, No matter the consequences. There is no such thing as “a little white lie”. My Honesty, and My Honor was everything to me. It kept me from becoming the Monster that I could have easily become. Thanks to your idiocy and disregard for what an American Symbol stood for, you have made it “OK” to disregard those Ideals. It apperantly is ok to Lie, Cheat, Steal and Murder, because feth It, who cares right? Steve Rogers aka Captain American has been doing it for 75 YEARS.
Fine, congradulations, you have made the last 21 years of my life and the Code I lived by, the hardships I endured because I refused to sacrifice that Code MEANINGLESS. You have disgraced what Joe Simon and Jack Kirby had the character stand for. The whole point of that Character was to showcase the potential of what human beings could be. Dispite the Odds stacked against them.
So, thanks to you two I will be throwing away my Moral Code, and become The Monster, that people feared I might become, that I myself feared I would become. I will use every resource at my disposal, every avenue that I can to locate and track you down. I WILL find you eventually, and I WILL kill you in the most painful way possible that I can think of. The ONLY way to stop me is to have me killed. But hey, that should be a walk in the park for you right? I mean I am just one disgruntled Marine, what is one more life compared to the MILLIONS of LIVES you just dismissed by making Captain America a Hydra Agent ALL ALONG. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING you say will erase what you have done, HYDRA was ALWAYS SYNOMOUS with NAZIS. You CANNOT seperate the two. So enjoy your “Fame” while you are able to still draw breath. It’s just a matter of time before I find you.
Nutjobs aside, I'm sure Marvel isn't exactly upset that people are talking about them like this, and that this thing has stolen some of the thunder from the much bigger stuff going on in the DC books right now.
"No such thing as bad publicity" has ruined brands, mind you. But I imagine this Hydra thing will be retconned or resolved soon enough so that the public can go back to not caring about Captain America comic books.
I think part of the problem is in the new comic Hydra is played as a conservative patriotic group at lest if the red skull speech I saw is real(and it was a good speech) it's at the end of this you see the hail hydra. Cap has never been for big government control but freedom that's why he gets digs for being librarian.
Me I am done with marvel and Disney have been for like a year
I don't like politics pushed in entertainment more so if it's one sided.
Compel wrote: Yeah, it was trending for a while on Twitter as well. It's quite a big 'thing' overall.
This article - Fandom is Broken touches on it a bit too. I have mixed feelings about the article. EG It's not "entitlement" to say, "I don't like this and therefore I'm not going to buy it, but if you did this, I would like it and therefore buy it."
On the other hand, this is downright freaking scary.
J___ E____ wrote:As a Former Active Duty US Marine and a Disabled Veteran, I want you to know that when I joined the Marines back in 95’ I did so under a strict Code of Ethics. Truth, Honor and Justice. This Code was inspired by Steve Rogers. I knew I could never be the person he was, I just wasn’t mentally built for it, but it gave me something to strive for. Yes, the Character of Stever Rogers AKA Captain America is a fictional one, but it is also one that emboydies what the Idea Human Being, not just American should strive to be. Steve Rogers never claimed to be perfect, but he tried his best every day to do the right thing no matter what.
For the last 21 years I have modeled my own Moral Code after the belief that I would NEVER tell a Lie, No matter the consequences. There is no such thing as “a little white lie”. My Honesty, and My Honor was everything to me. It kept me from becoming the Monster that I could have easily become. Thanks to your idiocy and disregard for what an American Symbol stood for, you have made it “OK” to disregard those Ideals. It apperantly is ok to Lie, Cheat, Steal and Murder, because feth It, who cares right? Steve Rogers aka Captain American has been doing it for 75 YEARS.
Fine, congradulations, you have made the last 21 years of my life and the Code I lived by, the hardships I endured because I refused to sacrifice that Code MEANINGLESS. You have disgraced what Joe Simon and Jack Kirby had the character stand for. The whole point of that Character was to showcase the potential of what human beings could be. Dispite the Odds stacked against them.
So, thanks to you two I will be throwing away my Moral Code, and become The Monster, that people feared I might become, that I myself feared I would become. I will use every resource at my disposal, every avenue that I can to locate and track you down. I WILL find you eventually, and I WILL kill you in the most painful way possible that I can think of. The ONLY way to stop me is to have me killed. But hey, that should be a walk in the park for you right? I mean I am just one disgruntled Marine, what is one more life compared to the MILLIONS of LIVES you just dismissed by making Captain America a Hydra Agent ALL ALONG. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING you say will erase what you have done, HYDRA was ALWAYS SYNOMOUS with NAZIS. You CANNOT seperate the two. So enjoy your “Fame” while you are able to still draw breath. It’s just a matter of time before I find you.
-J___ E____
USMC Disabled Veteran
that is scary, also wonder how many of those people want Cap to have a boyfriend now that he is associated with evil incarnate?
Oldmike wrote: I think part of the problem is in the new comic Hydra is played as a conservative patriotic group at lest if the red skull speech I saw is real(and it was a good speech) it's at the end of this you see the hail hydra. Cap has never been for big government control but freedom that's why he gets digs for being librarian.
Me I am done with marvel and Disney have been for like a year
I don't like politics pushed in entertainment more so if it's one sided.
yeah you can see they are making Hydra look like Trump, it was stated the people on the new Cap book are very political, and this is another issue with me, I read Comics to get away from real world politics and here they are shoving their version down our throats.
timetowaste85 wrote: Rewatched the Civil War movie yesterday. Still don't understand how people are getting that Cap is gay for Bucky. Bucky was his best friend in the world, he watched him "die" and saw him come back as a slave. They're also both two men trapped outside of their own time, and Cap has always been about saving people. Plus he's with Peggy's niece! Seriously...calling him gay for Bucky....just no. Straight up idiocy. This is the story of a man desperate to save the only connection to his childhood and his old life. Can anyone on here truly say they wouldn't do the same for their best friend? Hell, I know I would! (If I was super strong and had a shield that gave the middle finger to physics).
It's probably for the same reason people think Sam & Frodo should be gay for each other.
I jumped into this thread because I was hoping it was in response to giving ryan reynolds another opportunity to mess up a movie. that man is a menace who must be stopped.
timetowaste85 wrote: Rewatched the Civil War movie yesterday. Still don't understand how people are getting that Cap is gay for Bucky. Bucky was his best friend in the world, he watched him "die" and saw him come back as a slave. They're also both two men trapped outside of their own time, and Cap has always been about saving people. Plus he's with Peggy's niece! Seriously...calling him gay for Bucky....just no. Straight up idiocy. This is the story of a man desperate to save the only connection to his childhood and his old life. Can anyone on here truly say they wouldn't do the same for their best friend? Hell, I know I would! (If I was super strong and had a shield that gave the middle finger to physics).
It's probably for the same reason people think Sam & Frodo should be gay for each other.
That's because people can't handle two straight dudes being emotionally close with each other.
thekingofkings wrote: I jumped into this thread because I was hoping it was in response to giving ryan reynolds another opportunity to mess up a movie. that man is a menace who must be stopped.
Asterios wrote: after reading an article today I have decided to Boycott Marvel and anything dealing with Marvel from Comics to movies to TV shows, why you ask, it appears Marvel has made Captain America into a sleeper agent for HYDRA, in essence they have turned Captain America a symbol who stands for all that is right with America into a Nazi, I consider this reprehensible and disrespectful to America and all it stands for.
yes you are trolling.
Oh dang, you're right, this is all part of an Illuminati conspiracy to rewire our brains, ultimately making us more fascist.
thekingofkings wrote: I jumped into this thread because I was hoping it was in response to giving ryan reynolds another opportunity to mess up a movie. that man is a menace who must be stopped.
While you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, you are wrong. In fact, you should feel bad for suggesting such a thing. Reynolds is the closest we'd ever come to getting a Hollywood portrayal of Deadpool. That movie also made a killing, and was well loved by almost everyone who saw it. Except the idiot parents who ignored the R rating and took kids to a super hero movie. And people who have no taste. Those two groups disliked it.
thekingofkings wrote: I jumped into this thread because I was hoping it was in response to giving ryan reynolds another opportunity to mess up a movie. that man is a menace who must be stopped.
While you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, you are wrong. In fact, you should feel bad for suggesting such a thing. Reynolds is the closest we'd ever come to getting a Hollywood portrayal of Deadpool. That movie also made a killing, and was well loved by almost everyone who saw it. Except the idiot parents who ignored the R rating and took kids to a super hero movie. And people who have no taste. Those two groups disliked it.
There is a 3rd group, those of us who watched "the proposal", "green lantern" and "RIPD" and are now scarred for life. The man is the devil. not to mention what he did to amytiville horror. oh the humanity of it all.
thekingofkings wrote: I jumped into this thread because I was hoping it was in response to giving ryan reynolds another opportunity to mess up a movie. that man is a menace who must be stopped.
While you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, you are wrong. In fact, you should feel bad for suggesting such a thing. Reynolds is the closest we'd ever come to getting a Hollywood portrayal of Deadpool. That movie also made a killing, and was well loved by almost everyone who saw it. Except the idiot parents who ignored the R rating and took kids to a super hero movie. And people who have no taste. Those two groups disliked it.
There is a 3rd group, those of us who watched "the proposal", "green lantern" and "RIPD" and are now scarred for life. The man is the devil. not to mention what he did to amytiville horror. oh the humanity of it all.
actually he makes fun of green Lantern in DeadPool.
thekingofkings wrote: There is a 3rd group, those of us who watched "the proposal", "green lantern" and "RIPD" and are now scarred for life. The man is the devil. not to mention what he did to amytiville horror. oh the humanity of it all.
Yeah, 'cause the problems with those films were all down to Reynolds' involvement.
thekingofkings wrote: I jumped into this thread because I was hoping it was in response to giving ryan reynolds another opportunity to mess up a movie. that man is a menace who must be stopped.
While you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, you are wrong. In fact, you should feel bad for suggesting such a thing. Reynolds is the closest we'd ever come to getting a Hollywood portrayal of Deadpool. That movie also made a killing, and was well loved by almost everyone who saw it. Except the idiot parents who ignored the R rating and took kids to a super hero movie. And people who have no taste. Those two groups disliked it.
There is a 3rd group, those of us who watched "the proposal", "green lantern" and "RIPD" and are now scarred for life. The man is the devil. not to mention what he did to amytiville horror. oh the humanity of it all.
You could say that about any actor ever. Is train spotting now rubbish due to star wars?
Which is neither here nor there to the argument made. Almost every actor in the history of the medium has made some bad films but that also doesn't negate their good films, and as H.B.M.C. those movies weren't bad because of Reynolds.
Hell there is a thread right now about how Adam Sandler actually made a semi-decent movie which is a crazy idea.
Very good directors have made some very bad films too. Making a good movie is about a whole host of factors coming together.
Sorry...I guess I'm way off topic here. Maybe getting it back on topic, I think we can be 100% certain that Disney will go nowhere near the Cap-Hydra thing in any future MCU films.
Which is neither hear nor there to the argument made. Almost every actor in the history of the medium has made some bad films but that also doesn't negate their good films, and as H.B.M.C. those movies weren't bad because of Reynolds.
Hell there is a thread right now about how Adam Sandler actually made a semi-decent movie which is a crazy idea.
You're welcome!! And yes...I do actually encourage people to give it a shot. It's better than it deserves to be.
your voices do not sway me, Ryan Reynolds is the devil in the flesh, 1 good movie does not absolve all the horrors he has inflicted on the movie world.
I'm more than a little terrified that people can let their lives get derailed because of how much they revolved around a fictional character. I understand being pissed, but holy cow, there's such a thing as too far. Aaaand I think the military guy lept over that line.
Maybe not necessarily. Hear me out. While Cap is a fictional hero, he's still a role model of sorts. He's the all-American guy who is/was the champion of liberty and the epitome of what it means to be an American. And of course, he inspired this guy (and probably others) to fight, and in some cases die for their country. And now all those guys who felt proud to be doing honor to the name of captain America in the best way that they can will only feel a serious punch to the gut, as the symbolism has been rocked to the core. Everyone knows Cap is fictitious. However, all that he stood for is real. And right now it's looking very tarnished. I'm not surprised at the horror, anger or death threats. And if Cap being a traitor all along isn't fixed to send him back to normal, I can't really say I disagree with those who are so outraged. However, I personally believe the Cosmic Cube has changed time to make him an agent and it'll all go back to normal after the arc. It's literary suicide to keep Cap a villain forever.
timetowaste85 wrote: And now all those guys who felt proud to be doing honor to the name of captain America in the best way that they can will only feel a serious punch to the gut, as the symbolism has been rocked to the core
I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
Next up, fast-food owners commit mass suicide when Ronald McDonald is outed as a communist, and all the hints that pointed toward the terrible truth.
I never respected the New 52 Superman myself, but killing him off just destroys opportunities for storytelling. Because if they're going to make Superman in to yet another brooding, whiny superhero, the least they could do is make him fething grow out of it over the course of an interesting story. That way you don't have to do a major retcon, because instead, you have character development.
But DC and Marvel don't like character development. It's too scary.
timetowaste85 wrote: And now all those guys who felt proud to be doing honor to the name of captain America in the best way that they can will only feel a serious punch to the gut, as the symbolism has been rocked to the core
I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
Next up, fast-food owners commit mass suicide when Ronald McDonald is outed as a communist, and all the hints that pointed toward the terrible truth.
you really have no clue what Captain America stood for and represented.
timetowaste85 wrote: Maybe not necessarily. Hear me out. While Cap is a fictional hero, he's still a role model of sorts. He's the all-American guy who is/was the champion of liberty and the epitome of what it means to be an American. And of course, he inspired this guy (and probably others) to fight, and in some cases die for their country. And now all those guys who felt proud to be doing honor to the name of captain America in the best way that they can will only feel a serious punch to the gut, as the symbolism has been rocked to the core.
Yeah, basically this, like I said. Comics do have a great power to inspire but, that means the should take the responsibility too (see what I did there) and think about what they represent as morality tales to generations.
In saying that, don't start making death threats for a sales stunt, please.
On another note, I thought New-52 Superman wasn't quite dead due to timey-wimeyness? Wasn't that the idea?
timetowaste85 wrote: And now all those guys who felt proud to be doing honor to the name of captain America in the best way that they can will only feel a serious punch to the gut, as the symbolism has been rocked to the core
I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
Next up, fast-food owners commit mass suicide when Ronald McDonald is outed as a communist, and all the hints that pointed toward the terrible truth.
you really have no clue what Captain America stood for and represented.
Umm selling comic books? Or is that not a thing and it was actually a charity ALL ALONG?
Seriously, it's comics. If your brain explodes every time a schlocky writer does something dumb/wrong/ LOLWHUT? with your beloved fictional character, well, let's just say maybe comics aren't for you. Basing a whole life philosophy over a made up drawing and that is shaken when one of its iterations does something you don't like? Whoo- boy! Some serious 1st world and/or mental problems going on there...
And "doing honor to the name of captain America" sounds strangely perverse....
timetowaste85 wrote: And now all those guys who felt proud to be doing honor to the name of captain America in the best way that they can will only feel a serious punch to the gut, as the symbolism has been rocked to the core
I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
Next up, fast-food owners commit mass suicide when Ronald McDonald is outed as a communist, and all the hints that pointed toward the terrible truth.
you really have no clue what Captain America stood for and represented.
Umm selling comic books? Or is that not a thing and it was actually a charity ALL ALONG?
Seriously, it's comics. If your brain explodes every time a schlocky writer does something dumb/wrong/ LOLWHUT? with your beloved fictional character, well, let's just say maybe comics aren't for you. Basing a whole life philosophy over a made up drawing and that is shaken when one of its iterations does something you don't like? Whoo- boy! Some serious 1st world and/or mental problems going on there...
And "doing honor to the name of captain America" sounds strangely perverse....
Kovnik Obama wrote: I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
That sounds like a statement based on zero knowledge of Steve Rogers.
Personally I'm tired of having this guy and his Great White Northernist agenda shoved down my throat.
Melissia wrote: I never respected the New 52 Superman myself, but killing him off just destroys opportunities for storytelling. Because if they're going to make Superman in to yet another brooding, whiny superhero, the least they could do is make him fething grow out of it over the course of an interesting story. That way you don't have to do a major retcon, because instead, you have character development.
But DC and Marvel don't like character development. It's too scary.
IMO, the only problem with New 52 Supes was how they handled him -- too many different writers, somewhat different personalities from book to book, and too many storylines involving stuff being done to him rather than him doing stuff. There were some real highpoints for the character during the New 52, but ultimately they abused that poor bastich quite a bit...then killed him.
But "bringing back" the "old" Supes -- and in Superdad form, no less -- was almost certainly influenced by the very loud complaints from geeks about New 52 Supes. Geeks are very conservative and resistant to change. Dating someone other than Lois; a costume that doesn't look like a circus strongman's; and more readiness to take action, especially in the name of social justice...it was all too much for some geeks to bear.
I think Superdad will almost certainly end up as boring (or more) as the character was before the New 52, especially with Jurgens of all people calling shots. Expect lots of pseudo-moralistic lecturing, schmaltzy hugs with Lois and little Supes, and a return to the bland, unmemorable storylines of yesteryear. The red underwear will be next to return...just you wait.
Compel wrote: On another note, I thought New-52 Superman wasn't quite dead due to timey-wimeyness? Wasn't that the idea?
Nope, he's D E D Dead. Looks like he's being replaced with a previous version, the one who was "killed" by Doomsday in the original Death of Superman story.
Compel wrote: On another note, I thought New-52 Superman wasn't quite dead due to timey-wimeyness? Wasn't that the idea?
Nope, he's D E D Dead. Looks like he's being replaced with a previous version, the one who was "killed" by Doomsday in the original Death of Superman story.
Personally, I think he's "dead for now." There was some weirdness about Wally not being able to see his body in Rebirth #1. And there's the stuff involving Mr. Oz -- who said that neither Superman is what they think they are -- which is very unresolved. But if the big reveal is what I think it is, then Superdad will be the "true" Superman of their world, not New 52 Supes. In that instance, I don't think a resurrection would matter...?
timetowaste85 wrote: And now all those guys who felt proud to be doing honor to the name of captain America in the best way that they can will only feel a serious punch to the gut, as the symbolism has been rocked to the core
I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
Next up, fast-food owners commit mass suicide when Ronald McDonald is outed as a communist, and all the hints that pointed toward the terrible truth.
you really have no clue what Captain America stood for and represented.
Umm selling comic books? Or is that not a thing and it was actually a charity ALL ALONG?
Seriously, it's comics. If your brain explodes every time a schlocky writer does something dumb/wrong/ LOLWHUT? with your beloved fictional character, well, let's just say maybe comics aren't for you. Basing a whole life philosophy over a made up drawing and that is shaken when one of its iterations does something you don't like? Whoo- boy! Some serious 1st world and/or mental problems going on there...
And "doing honor to the name of captain America" sounds strangely perverse....
you really are clueless? whatever.
Nice ad hominem. Care to enlighten me by addressing my point? Here, I will make it easy:
Point 1: Comic books have frequently done bizarre/edgy/stupid takes on characters. This includes total reversals, retcons as aliens, hallucinations, devil bargains, etc.
Point 2: Claiming that's one's ethical or moral positions are so fundamentally linked to a fictional character that fundamental changes to that character undermines one's whole belief system is either asinine hyperbole or and indicator of a serious behavioral or mental issue (possibly both).
As way of anecdotal evidence, I know many vets, LEOs, adults, etc. and I have *never* heard one question their beliefs based on a damn comic book.
Actually, Captain America was created back during WW2 to inspire the troops. He wasn't created just to make money selling comics (of course, that kept the guys funded to keep making more). He was always intended to inspire and be a beacon against Nazi Germany. If you knew anything about the character, you'd know that. The soldiers, and other fans, who know that are offended because to them it looks like that inspiration was all a lie. The beacon was a fake. So try to see the big picture. Is he a comic book character? Yes. But he's also much more than that. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but...viewing Captain America as nothing more than a comic character intent on making money is incredibly juvenile and childish, and you should feel ashamed of yourself if you believe that. If any of you have relatives who fought in WW2, ask them how they'd feel about CA being a hydra (Nazi) agent all along. You might get a cane or wheelchair thrown at you.
A comic book character can in fact come to mean a great deal more than merely "whatever this month's author wants". Superman is a great example of this. Despite some hiccups, with bad authors making him do things out of character, he stands for not merely beating up the bad guys, not merely being strong enough to win-- any number of characters could do that. No, he stands for doing the right thing, and trying to do it in the right way. Going above and beyond to try to help everyone, even those that hate you.
It's part of the reason why All-Star Superman is so beloved, where All-Star Batman and Robin is derided as garbage. All-Star Superman took what Superman stood for as a concept, and celebrated it ("You are much stronger than you think you are."... one of the most beloved pages in all of comics history). All-Star Batman and Robin took what Batman stood for... and shat on it.
I'm not a huge marvel fan. But it really doesn't take much for me to see that Captain America stands for something very similar, with a bit of a patriotic bent perhaps but even with that he still is about trying to do the right thing the right way, and not just reckless, blind vengeance that is mistaken for justice by so many authors. For many people, comic books were the introduction to concepts of morality that they utilize today, and to see them torn apart by crappy writers is understandably painful.
Yeah, Superman is a great example of that whole "great responsibility" and 'morality tale' thing. There's one fan comic I know that has helped a lot of people. I'll post the first page and spoiler the rest.
One of my favorite scenes from Captain America was one where teens are chasing down a Muslim-American, shouting insults and threats at him and clearly intending to do harm.
Captain America stands between the group and the victim, and simply stares them down, his glare a look of sheer disappointment that causes the group to disperse, and then he escorts the man home personally Because Captain America isn't YOUR Captain America. He is not blindly loyal to America's leaders, or to some political spectrum, or some identity.
Captain America is loyal to nothing, except the Dream.
timetowaste85 wrote: And now all those guys who felt proud to be doing honor to the name of captain America in the best way that they can will only feel a serious punch to the gut, as the symbolism has been rocked to the core
I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
Next up, fast-food owners commit mass suicide when Ronald McDonald is outed as a communist, and all the hints that pointed toward the terrible truth.
you really have no clue what Captain America stood for and represented.
Umm selling comic books? Or is that not a thing and it was actually a charity ALL ALONG?
Seriously, it's comics. If your brain explodes every time a schlocky writer does something dumb/wrong/ LOLWHUT? with your beloved fictional character, well, let's just say maybe comics aren't for you. Basing a whole life philosophy over a made up drawing and that is shaken when one of its iterations does something you don't like? Whoo- boy! Some serious 1st world and/or mental problems going on there...
And "doing honor to the name of captain America" sounds strangely perverse....
you really are clueless? whatever.
Nice ad hominem. Care to enlighten me by addressing my point? Here, I will make it easy:
Point 1: Comic books have frequently done bizarre/edgy/stupid takes on characters. This includes total reversals, retcons as aliens, hallucinations, devil bargains, etc.
Point 2: Claiming that's one's ethical or moral positions are so fundamentally linked to a fictional character that fundamental changes to that character undermines one's whole belief system is either asinine hyperbole or and indicator of a serious behavioral or mental issue (possibly both).
As way of anecdotal evidence, I know many vets, LEOs, adults, etc. and I have *never* heard one question their beliefs based on a damn comic book.
Kind of reminds me of the first Mission: Impossible film.
Spoiler:
Rather than being a reboot, it's a continuation of the TV show. As such, the lead (Tom Cruise's Ethan Hunt) is a new character, taking the mantle from Jim Phelps, who had been the main character since the original show's second season.
At the end of the film, Phelps - the man who had been our protagonist for 8 seasons - is revealed to have turned traitor, having murdered his own team-mates and sold classified information to criminals, all because he'd grown disillusioned with his work and wanted to retire wealthily.
Contemporary audiences might not have cared, nor even remembered the original series, but this was a pretty big slap in the face for old fans of the show. Phelps's original actor was offered the part for the film, but turned it down because he was so aghast at what the writers had done.
I get that that's more a case of a character doing a very uncharacteristic face-heel turn, rather than turning out to be a baddie all along, but what makes this case even sadder is that there's never going to be a retcon. The film series has supplanted the TV series. Barely anyone even remembers the TV show, so what we see in the first film really is the ending to the TV show's saga.
Then again, it's pretty easy to just dismiss the films as an "alternate" continuity. I'm imagining that'll be less easy to do with an on-going comic, though.
Personally, I'm betting on an eventual retcon. Maybe not soon, but eventually.
Kovnik Obama wrote: I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
That sounds like a statement based on zero knowledge of Steve Rogers.
I assume you mean Captain America, as in the comic, not the character, since personal knowledge of the fictional character is not really necessary to determine if something is a propaganda piece. And it most certainly is : Simon himself said the publication was motivated by a pro-war sentiment shared by the three creators.
There were of course financial matters. The Shield, another patriotic comic, was hugely successful at the time.
As for it being qualified as propaganda, that is simply beyond debate. Honour, truth, justice and freedom are not, in any shape or form, particular american virtues. The conflict between the Western powers and the Axis was not a conflict based on opposed virtues, but between two groups of imperialistic powers with contradicting aims.
Kovnik Obama wrote: I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
That sounds like a statement based on zero knowledge of Steve Rogers.
Personally I'm tired of having this guy and his Great White Northernist agenda shoved down my throat.
Meh, Canada got some weird Avengers out of the Golden Age, including an Inuit Goddess, a Sasquatch and what seems to be two French-Canadian ice skating twins with an axe to grind against Catholicism.
I feel we are currently better represented with Deadpool and Wolverine.
timetowaste85 wrote: Actually, Captain America was created back during WW2 to inspire the troops. He wasn't created just to make money selling comics (of course, that kept the guys funded to keep making more). He was always intended to inspire and be a beacon against Nazi Germany. If you knew anything about the character, you'd know that. The soldiers, and other fans, who know that are offended because to them it looks like that inspiration was all a lie. The beacon was a fake. So try to see the big picture. Is he a comic book character? Yes. But he's also much more than that. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but...viewing Captain America as nothing more than a comic character intent on making money is incredibly juvenile and childish, and you should feel ashamed of yourself if you believe that. If any of you have relatives who fought in WW2, ask them how they'd feel about CA being a hydra (Nazi) agent all along. You might get a cane or wheelchair thrown at you.
Heh, I like it when people who don't know what they are talking about insult others.
Captain America originated in 1940 as an anti German piece. That's has jack squat to do with where Cap is *as a comic* now. You do realize Captain America was cancelled in 1954 right? In 1963 they teasered him, it went over well, so in 1964 they reintroduced Captain America. He would engage in some horrific acts of violence, be retconned to be a different guy that did that (Grand Director), become Nomad for a while (later a cured Jack Monroe would take the alias), switches to "the Captain" for a while, gets relaunched again, eventually reveals his identity, gets killed, but not really, slingshots through time and comes back. He then does a bunch of stuff involving the X-Men, Red Skull comes back (clone), the super serum is neutralized, then restored. Another relaunch, and now Cap is Hydra.
Here is a recap of some the things that Cap has done/been in that time period:
-Several different people
-A werewolf
-A violent meth addict
-A servant of the Red Skull
All of them later got "fixed".
So yes, I do know a bit about what's going on. Cap may have symbolic importance, but the nature of capitalism is that to Marvel, he is not much unless he is making them money. To sell the books, they are using sensationalism. It is ridiculous to claim this some how "undoes" the past- what Cap was in the past is just that. This Cap under this writer will do some other stuff. SOme other writer will do some other stuff. It will probably get explained away or retconned out later or maybe Cap makes a face to heel turn. Whatever. Make as many personal attacks as you want, but I have yet to see any veterans groups naming Cap going Hydra as an issue. Just people on the internet who take they funny books a bit too seriously. It's a controversial story arc for a comic; nothing more. Probably won't even have the nerd impact as Death of Superman or even death of Cap.
I am sure WW2 vets will appreciate your internet comments that they would/shoukd be enraged by a comic book angle in 2016, though.
So...your very first point is to agree with me about his inception, then spend the rest of your post telling me why I'm wrong. Got it.
I've said 3 times in this thread that I know it'll be retconned/he'll go back to normal at the end of the arc. But you're arguing against what he stands for and has always stood for. Which is a terrible argument, and plain wrong. I, and others, have stated over and over again what Captain America means. If you want to say his only value is $$$$, well...must really suck to be that cynical and wrong.
timetowaste85 wrote: Actually, Captain America was created back during WW2 to inspire the troops. He wasn't created just to make money selling comics (of course, that kept the guys funded to keep making more). He was always intended to inspire and be a beacon against Nazi Germany. If you knew anything about the character, you'd know that. The soldiers, and other fans, who know that are offended because to them it looks like that inspiration was all a lie. The beacon was a fake. So try to see the big picture. Is he a comic book character? Yes. But he's also much more than that. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but...viewing Captain America as nothing more than a comic character intent on making money is incredibly juvenile and childish, and you should feel ashamed of yourself if you believe that. If any of you have relatives who fought in WW2, ask them how they'd feel about CA being a hydra (Nazi) agent all along. You might get a cane or wheelchair thrown at you.
This. There are some superheroes that are icons, not just run of the mill fictional characters. Captain America is one of those icons.
That being said, it's understandable that some people would get bent out of shape when TPTB at Marvel and DC start mucking with them too much.
Fortunately for me, I lost interest in capegak a long time ago. And seeing the crap that's going on in the industry today, I'll never buy another issue from either of the old comics giants.
But each to their own, of course! 
