Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.

The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.

The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.

Ultramarines didn't get boned. The other Chapters simply got some new toys.

Remember, kids... when you're used to privilege, equality feels like persecution.

This isn't really a YMDC question, so...off to 40K General we go!

And please, everyone remember - RULE #1.

Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

You can use any of the Formations in the book, you just can't use them as part of a Gladius Strike Force. The Anvil Strike Force can also be used by Ultramarines.

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

That's right! Ultramarines only got a metric fethton of new formations, rules for using 30k models in their 40k armies, and four new psychic disciplines. What a rip-off! /sarc

Us UM players have got plenty of stuff already, so us not getting a bunch of UM specific formations in the new supplement doesn't bother me at all. Getting to use Cataphractii Termies and Contemptor Dreads in 40k is enough for me.

Well I guess I need to go buy a bunch of land raiders in order to justify this purchase.

I can see where UM players are coming from. Everything in the Vanilla 'dex is open to all models with Chapter Tactics (save for the chapter specific Crusader Squad, Emperor's Champion and special characters). Ultramarines get a bunch of Special Characters in the base codex, of varying value (come on, when was Sicarius ever taken? The only competitive ones are Tigurius, Calgar, and maybe Telion and Chronus.

Then, fast forward to Angels of Death. Every other Chapter Tactic gets a specialised taskforce alongside the Gladius (which is basically UM tactics lite). UM don't.
Every other faction (to my knowledge) get Relics ALONGSIDE the Vanilla ones. Um get nothing.
All of the 30k stuff added on is also available to the other Chapters, and the psychic powers are available to everyone (save for the Templars)

I fail to see how you can say that "UM were treated like everyone else" when everyone else received Heresy Stuff/Psychic Powers +1.
Now, I'm not saying that, compared to other Factions, UM are now the worst. That would be unfair. What I, and the OP, are saying, is that compared to the other Vanilla Chapters, UM got left out because they are the most Vanilla of Vanilla.

UM aren't really boned, they still have the makings of one of the most powerful combinations with the Gladius. They still have access to every formation in Angels of Death, just not the detachments and the formations can't be used to fill the requirements of the Gladius.

That being said, I wish they had access to all of the formations in the Gladius. They are the quintessential masters of the Codex Astartes.

You're failing to see that Ultramarines are THE codex chapter which defines what a codex chapter is. The Gladius Strike Force is the building block that all of the other Chapters have tweaked over the millennia to suit their tactics and background.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
UM aren't really boned, they still have the makings of one of the most powerful combinations with the Gladius. They still have access to every formation in Angels of Death, just not the detachments and the formations can't be used to fill the requirements of the Gladius.

That being said, I wish they had access to all of the formations in the Gladius. They are the quintessential masters of the Codex Astartes.

I think that EVERYONE should have gotten access to them. Different companies might have different tactics, or a Chapter's heritage might not reflect their combat style.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
You're failing to see that Ultramarines are THE codex chapter which defines what a codex chapter is. The Gladius Strike Force is the building block that all of the other Chapters have tweaked over the millennia to suit their tactics and background.

So if the UM are that good with the codex, why are they not given a buff when using their own design? Why can every other chapter use the Gladius just as proficiently?

 EnTyme wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

That's right! Ultramarines only got a metric fethton of new formations, rules for using 30k models in their 40k armies, and four new psychic disciplines. What a rip-off! /sarc

What new formations? There weren't any new formations in AoD.

Everyone does have access to those formations. They just can't take them as their Core or Aux formations for their specific Strike Forces. And since most of the non-Gladius Detachments gain next to nothing from two cores, there is a lot of room, pointswise, to use still use the "banned" formations.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Everyone does have access to those formations. They just can't take them as their Core or Aux formations for their specific Strike Forces. And since most of the non-Gladius Detachments gain next to nothing from two cores, there is a lot of room, pointswise, to use still use the "banned" formations.

So if other factions gain nothing from having the altered Gladius - why does it exist? If this is so meaningless, why can the UM not use it?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

That's right! Ultramarines only got a metric fethton of new formations, rules for using 30k models in their 40k armies, and four new psychic disciplines. What a rip-off! /sarc

What new formations? There weren't any new formations in AoD.

Yes there are. Read the book. Granted several of them come from kauyon, but there are several in there that any codex marine chapter can use individually.

Ultras also have access to the psychic powers, the 30k units, and armoured strike force. To say they got nothing is being less than truthful.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

That's right! Ultramarines only got a metric fethton of new formations, rules for using 30k models in their 40k armies, and four new psychic disciplines. What a rip-off! /sarc

What new formations? There weren't any new formations in AoD.

Yes there are. Read the book. Granted several of them come from kauyon, but there are several in there that any codex marine chapter can use individually.

Ultras also have access to the psychic powers, the 30k units, and armoured strike force. To say they got nothing is being less than truthful.

No, there are no new formations - they've all been available elsewhere previously.

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement?

You've already got your own codex, let the little guys have some fun.

And don't forget you got cataphractii and contemptor rules, and I'm pretty sure any chapter may use those formations in there.

I can see why BA might not field a gladius, but give us something that's remotely as good. It doesn't even have to be quite as good.

Martel732 wrote:
I can see why BA might not field a gladius, but give us something that's remotely as good. It doesn't even have to be quite as good.

Must every marine thread get the comment "but blood angels are worse"?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

That's right! Ultramarines only got a metric fethton of new formations, rules for using 30k models in their 40k armies, and four new psychic disciplines. What a rip-off! /sarc

What new formations? There weren't any new formations in AoD.

Yes there are. Read the book. Granted several of them come from kauyon, but there are several in there that any codex marine chapter can use individually.

Ultras also have access to the psychic powers, the 30k units, and armoured strike force. To say they got nothing is being less than truthful.

No, there are no new formations - they've all been available elsewhere previously.

They are new to anyone who didn't buy warzone kauyon and/or the limited edition sky hammer annihilation force. I certainly didn't, so they're new for me.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can see why BA might not field a gladius, but give us something that's remotely as good. It doesn't even have to be quite as good.

Must every marine thread get the comment "but blood angels are worse"?

You even get this kind of things in Background so yes.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can see why BA might not field a gladius, but give us something that's remotely as good. It doesn't even have to be quite as good.

Must every marine thread get the comment "but blood angels are worse"?

It's not even just the Marine threads...

 General Kroll wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can see why BA might not field a gladius, but give us something that's remotely as good. It doesn't even have to be quite as good.

Must every marine thread get the comment "but blood angels are worse"?

It's not even just the Marine threads...

But it's worse in the Blood Angel threads.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can see why BA might not field a gladius, but give us something that's remotely as good. It doesn't even have to be quite as good.

Must every marine thread get the comment "but blood angels are worse"?

Yes. It's like how all CSM threads devolve into "bash the Loyalists and their player base". It's just how it is.

*Looks into thread. Reads about Ultramarine player complaining that they didn't get even more shiny formations and toys. Shakes head sadly.*

Ultramarines have more special characters in comparison to any other CSM chapter - Calgar, Tiberius, Sicarius, Telion and Chronus - all contained within the core book. They're widely acknowledged as the Poster Boys - to such an extent that not only do they have more characters - but these characters are regarded as being better than other chapter equivalents and it has been joked that C:SM is Codex Ultramarines.

Angels of Death is a supplement that expands on the OTHER chapters who merely get a mention in the main book so that they don't feel completely shafted.

And...you're complaining Ultramarines didn't get more toys?

You got the disciplines (to use on your superior psyker), you got more formations and you got another decurion detachment as well as 3 'new' units.

You know the reason every Marine thread gets 'But Blood Angels are worse?'

Because they are. They suffer from a change in codex direction taking place just after their codex - no fancy decurions or formations for them, save the bandaid formations in Shield of Baal.

But yeah, seeing a UM player complaining they didn't get (even more) shiny toys is kind of salt in the wound for Blood Angels who missed the fancy Decurion and Formation train.

And a red rag to CSM players who basically got to watch Loyallist marines get buffed beyond them twice.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement?

You've already got your own codex, let the little guys have some fun.

And don't forget you got cataphractii and contemptor rules, and I'm pretty sure any chapter may use those formations in there.

In my humble opinion, the Ultramarines are actually the worst chapter to use out of the codex, the only reason anyone does was to take Tigurius and dev cents with grav. I feel the problem is compounded by AoD bolstering every other chapter further with a choice of an additional strike force (that are all excellent, IMO) in addition to the Gladius Strike force and technically the anvil strike force or whatever it is.

I play them because I've always played them, and read the books, and painted them, and well that's the chapter I identified with, so I stand by them. In truth I really like every chapter, I've even come around on Space Wolves. I am so happy to see them all finaly being fleshed out more and more over the past few years. I loved reading in AoD all about the organization of all these chapters, all their captains names and how their companies are comprised. I just feel left out, I wish I had the freedom to take the new formations as auxiliary choices a spart of a detachment because a lot of them seem fun to try. I'll have to either use them as separate formation detachments in huge games (like 2,500+ points) or use a combined arms detachment and sacrifice my battle demi-company.

Youre right about the 30k stuff, I do have access. I will never ever use them just like I wont ever use grav guns or centurians. but that doesn't mean I didn't get them. The psychic powers are pretty sweet, and the missions seem fun too, im looking forward to trying 'Here we shall die'

Translation:
"Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"

This is turning into a "whose the most bitter" contest now.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Translation:
"Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"

You don't know me, you don't know my style of play. I think it's unfair for you to make that criticism. I play for fluff not for power FYI.

@pm713 I think that the ultramarines are pretty unpopular with a lot of the fan-base so I'm not really expecting a lot of commiseration

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.

The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.

As said before, Ultramarines did not get boned, they just didn't get buffed (like they need more buffs). And the cover having an Ultramarine doesn't really mean much - it's like saying the core C:SM codex should only be about Ultramarines because it has an Ultramarine on the front.

Also, what did you want to get out of this thread?

pm713 wrote:
This is turning into a "whose the most bitter" contest now.

I think the CSM player wins.

pm713 wrote:
This is turning into a "whose the most bitter" contest now.

A thread like this inevitably will.

 War Kitten wrote:

pm713 wrote:
This is turning into a "whose the most bitter" contest now.

I think the CSM player wins.

You bet your arse I do.

Me and my 5 year old Codex will be here to remind anyone crying that they are not even more OP what the bottom of the pile looks like.

Doesn't stop me from painting them though.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

pm713 wrote:
This is turning into a "whose the most bitter" contest now.

I think the CSM player wins.

You bet your arse I do.

Me and my 5 year old Codex will be here to remind anyone crying that they are not even more OP what the bottom of the pile looks like.

Doesn't stop me from painting them though.

Whenever I get bothered by my situation I reflect on Chaos. That makes you realise it isn't so bad after all.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

pm713 wrote:
This is turning into a "whose the most bitter" contest now.

I think the CSM player wins.

You bet your arse I do.

Me and my 5 year old Codex will be here to remind anyone crying that they are not even more OP what the bottom of the pile looks like.

Doesn't stop me from painting them though.

I just hope you realize most Loyalist players (at least that I know) find it fairly idiotic that we've gotten 2 codex updates in the last few years, while CSM are languishing in the back. It kills me every time to see CSM players do nothing but bash the Loyalists.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.

The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.

As said before, Ultramarines did not get boned, they just didn't get buffed (like they need more buffs). And the cover having an Ultramarine doesn't really mean much - it's like saying the core C:SM codex should only be about Ultramarines because it has an Ultramarine on the front.

Also, what did you want to get out of this thread?

Is it of your opinion that the ultramarine chapter tactics are the most competitive in the codex? IMO the cover featuring the Ultra on it was misleading when they had the least to do with the supplement. Even black Templars, and technically crimson fists got more out of it... and I disagree with about the codex cover since its titled adeptus astartes not codex ultramarines.

 6^ wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.

The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.

As said before, Ultramarines did not get boned, they just didn't get buffed (like they need more buffs). And the cover having an Ultramarine doesn't really mean much - it's like saying the core C:SM codex should only be about Ultramarines because it has an Ultramarine on the front.

Also, what did you want to get out of this thread?

Is it of your opinion that the ultramarine chapter tactics are the most competitive in the codex? IMO the cover featuring the Ultra on it was misleading when they had the least to do with the supplement. Even black Templars, and technically crimson fists got more out of it... and I disagree with about the codex cover since its titled adeptus astartes not codex ultramarines.

Ultramarines are one of the most well-known Space Marine chapters, and they've come rather iconic over the years. Of course they'd put an Ultramarine on the cover, and we still got something out of the supplement (although god knows we've got plenty as UM players at this point). Or did you miss the Cataphractii Termies, Captain, and Contemptor Dreadnought that we got?

 6^ wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.

The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.

As said before, Ultramarines did not get boned, they just didn't get buffed (like they need more buffs). And the cover having an Ultramarine doesn't really mean much - it's like saying the core C:SM codex should only be about Ultramarines because it has an Ultramarine on the front.

Also, what did you want to get out of this thread?

Is it of your opinion that the ultramarine chapter tactics are the most competitive in the codex? IMO the cover featuring the Ultra on it was misleading when they had the least to do with the supplement. Even black Templars, and technically crimson fists got more out of it... and I disagree with about the codex cover since its titled adeptus astartes not codex ultramarines.

They're far from the worst tactics. It's not exactly misleading they aren't claiming it has much to do with Ultramarines. The product description is pretty clear about what it is.

If anyone got boned it was other loyalists who bought it expecting new powers to find that they need house rules to use them. Granted I can't expect anyone blocking them but still.

 6^ wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.

The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.

As said before, Ultramarines did not get boned, they just didn't get buffed (like they need more buffs). And the cover having an Ultramarine doesn't really mean much - it's like saying the core C:SM codex should only be about Ultramarines because it has an Ultramarine on the front.

Also, what did you want to get out of this thread?

Is it of your opinion that the ultramarine chapter tactics are the most competitive in the codex? IMO the cover featuring the Ultra on it was misleading when they had the least to do with the supplement. Even black Templars, and technically crimson fists got more out of it... and I disagree with about the codex cover since its titled adeptus astartes not codex ultramarines.

I haven't thought about whether or or not the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics are the most competitive, but the point still stands that Ultramarines don't need any buffs or new content. I'm more curious as to why they thing they actually do need anything? But given you ignored my last question, I don't expect an answer let alone a good answer.

And on a side note, Black Templars really didn't get anything since, based on the quick read-through I did a couple of weeks ago, all they got was a Warlord Traits Table they got in a previous WD Issue and a piece of fluff you can find online.

 War Kitten wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

pm713 wrote:
This is turning into a "whose the most bitter" contest now.

I think the CSM player wins.

You bet your arse I do.

Me and my 5 year old Codex will be here to remind anyone crying that they are not even more OP what the bottom of the pile looks like.

Doesn't stop me from painting them though.

I just hope you realize most Loyalist players (at least that I know) find it fairly idiotic that we've gotten 2 codex updates in the last few years, while CSM are languishing in the back. It kills me every time to see CSM players do nothing but bash the Loyalists.

Most do. But then you get the handful, including the OP for this thread who cannot comprehend why they do not get even more shiny toys, or actually have to think to deal with Tau and Eldar armies and cannot just push models across a table and win through stacked stathammer.

You get the handful who seem to believe that CSM being neglected for so long is karma for the 3.5 CSM book while conveniently forgetting the era it existed in where SM, Tau, Eldar, Tyranids and Orks (toward the end of its lifespan) were all pretty ridiculous as well.

I've been told on Dakka that CSM 3.5 and/or Lash of Submission (the only oddity in a god awful and bland 5th ed CSM codex) RUINED 40K FOREVER.

Angels of Death as a supplement was a slap in the face for CSM and Blood Angels - CSM because we not only got completely ignored in all GW's determination to talk about Space Marines and Power Armour (spoiler, we're a type of Space Marine too guys, why you ignore us?) but we got rather poor reprint of some lacklustre supplements with refurbished dataslate and Apocalypse formations thrown in like that was supposed to make everything better - that didn't even bother to try and give us a Decurion style detachment (ala Farsight Enclaves and Waaagh Ghazghkull) and Blood Angels because it further emphasises the gulf between them and every other SM book.

Understandably this thread made me sigh. Some people just don't have any idea about any other part of the game. 'It has an Ultramarine on the cover.' Well, yes, of course it does. Ultramarines are the standard staple Codex marine Chapter. They're generic. They're deliberately generic. So naturally their artwork is on everything and its dog relating to Space Marines.

It doesn't mean that everything is going to be Ultramarines ++. That's really not their intended purpose. You want Ultramarines to NOT be a generic chapter? Go play 30k where each Legion gets its own unique rules.

 War Kitten wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.

The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.

As said before, Ultramarines did not get boned, they just didn't get buffed (like they need more buffs). And the cover having an Ultramarine doesn't really mean much - it's like saying the core C:SM codex should only be about Ultramarines because it has an Ultramarine on the front.

Also, what did you want to get out of this thread?

Is it of your opinion that the ultramarine chapter tactics are the most competitive in the codex? IMO the cover featuring the Ultra on it was misleading when they had the least to do with the supplement. Even black Templars, and technically crimson fists got more out of it... and I disagree with about the codex cover since its titled adeptus astartes not codex ultramarines.

Ultramarines are one of the most well-known Space Marine chapters, and they've come rather iconic over the years. Of course they'd put an Ultramarine on the cover, and we still got something out of the supplement (although god knows we've got plenty as UM players at this point). Or did you miss the Cataphractii Termies, Captain, and Contemptor Dreadnought that we got?

Alright fine I concede the point about the cover, its not that big of a deal. I should have done more research before making the purchase. What is it that we have so much of exactly, characters? None of them are competitive choices except Tigurius. Do you field these units do you know anyone who does with any sort of frequency I don't?

Im not playing cataphractii or contemptors, its just shoe-horned for power gamers, but I do also concede that ground too. Yes the ultramarines got something.

 6^ wrote:

Alright fine I concede the point about the cover, its not that big of a deal. I should have done more research before making the purchase. What is it that we have so much of exactly, characters? None of them are competitive choices except Tigurius. Do you field these units do you know anyone who does with any sort of frequency I don't?

Im not playing cataphractii or contemptors, its just shoe-horned for power gamers, but I do also concede that ground too. Yes the ultramarines got something.

I wish to make the following point.

You are playing the chapter that is deliberately designed to be the most generic and vanilla Chapter in the game. They are the poster boys. They are the chapter that you can technically use any formation for and essentially was designed as the vanilla base that other chapters deviated from.

In 2nd ed. the Space Marine codex was Codex: Ultramarines. It was even named as such. You are the vanilla ice cream of the Space Marine world.

Even in fluff and background - you are vanilla. This is intentional. Your primarch wrote the Codex Astartes. Your chapter sticks to it. It is law.

But other chapters? They deviate - in lore, in fluff, in background they have distinct fighting styles, chapter structures and traitrs that the generic flavour of C:SM does not quite enable. This is why they got these extra formations, why they got these decurions and why they got shiny toys in the supplement.

You an make your army functional with your Codex alone.

They have to buy another book to do it correctly.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

pm713 wrote:
This is turning into a "whose the most bitter" contest now.

I think the CSM player wins.

You bet your arse I do.

Me and my 5 year old Codex will be here to remind anyone crying that they are not even more OP what the bottom of the pile looks like.

Doesn't stop me from painting them though.

I just hope you realize most Loyalist players (at least that I know) find it fairly idiotic that we've gotten 2 codex updates in the last few years, while CSM are languishing in the back. It kills me every time to see CSM players do nothing but bash the Loyalists.

Most do. But then you get the handful, including the OP for this thread who cannot comprehend why they do not get even more shiny toys, or actually have to think to deal with Tau and Eldar armies and cannot just push models across a table and win through stacked stathammer.

You get the handful who seem to believe that CSM being neglected for so long is karma for the 3.5 CSM book while conveniently forgetting the era it existed in where SM, Tau, Eldar, Tyranids and Orks (toward the end of its lifespan) were all pretty ridiculous as well.

I've been told on Dakka that CSM 3.5 and/or Lash of Submission (the only oddity in a god awful and bland 5th ed CSM codex) RUINED 40K FOREVER.

Angels of Death as a supplement was a slap in the face for CSM and Blood Angels - CSM because we not only got completely ignored in all GW's determination to talk about Space Marines and Power Armour (spoiler, we're a type of Space Marine too guys, why you ignore us?) but we got rather poor reprint of some lacklustre supplements with refurbished dataslate and Apocalypse formations thrown in like that was supposed to make everything better - that didn't even bother to try and give us a Decurion style detachment (ala Farsight Enclaves and Waaagh Ghazghkull) and Blood Angels because it further emphasises the gulf between them and every other SM book.

Understandably this thread made me sigh. Some people just don't have any idea about any other part of the game. 'It has an Ultramarine on the cover.' Well, yes, of course it does. Ultramarines are the standard staple Codex marine Chapter. They're generic. They're deliberately generic. So naturally their artwork is on everything and its dog relating to Space Marines.

It doesn't mean that everything is going to be Ultramarines ++. That's really not their intended purpose. You want Ultramarines to NOT be a generic chapter? Go play 30k where each Legion gets its own unique rules.

I play Chaos man come on. I played codex chaos for years too. What about khorne daemonkin? Its IMO the most fun codex to play in the game, I am genuinely looking forward to daemonkin slaanesh and the rest. Why are you making so many assumptions about me that's unfair. I lose at least 75% of my games, I am not asking for more for power I just wanted freedom to use my collection like the other space marine players, that's all!

@ IllumiNini I am sorry I made this thread man, I am sorry. You're right about a lot. I am just disapointed, and when I started the thread I had just sat down to read the supplement for the first time and was wondering if I missed something. This book has a ton of information in it and since Im coming into this book a little later than some I thought I could get some answers to what was going on. Instead a got a lot of accusations decrying my ignorance or power-gaming.

as a UM player I do think that at the very least they could have given Ultramarines their own relics.

 6^ wrote:


I play Chaos man come on. I played codex chaos for years too. What about khorne daemonkin? Its IMO the most fun codex to play in the game, I am genuinely looking forward to daemonkin slaanesh and the rest. Why are you making so many assumptions about me that's unfair. I lose at least 75% of my games, I am not asking for more for power I just wanted freedom to use my collection like the other space marine players, that's all!

You posted this thread mate. Actions speak louder than words. KDK was not the fix that CSM needed - for one, the CSM units are all hideously overpointed still. In fact, KDK armies tend to be Khornate Daemon armies with access to summoning and Heldrakes. KDK also blatantly snubs the other 80% of Chaos. you want to know what's real hilarious? Not a single new model was released alongside KDK. That was the ideal opportunity to update the horribly dated Khorne Berserkers (complete with 2nd ed. BIG HAND SYNDROME) with something as simple as a sprue recut (to include the Power Weapon and Fist options for the Champion) and they didn't even do that.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 6^ wrote:


I play Chaos man come on. I played codex chaos for years too. What about khorne daemonkin? Its IMO the most fun codex to play in the game, I am genuinely looking forward to daemonkin slaanesh and the rest. Why are you making so many assumptions about me that's unfair. I lose at least 75% of my games, I am not asking for more for power I just wanted freedom to use my collection like the other space marine players, that's all!

You posted this thread mate. Actions speak louder than words. KDK was not the fix that CSM needed - for one, the CSM units are all hideously overpointed still. In fact, KDK armies tend to be Khornate Daemon armies with access to summoning and Heldrakes. KDK also blatantly snubs the other 80% of Chaos. you want to know what's real hilarious? Not a single new model was released alongside KDK. That was the ideal opportunity to update the horribly dated Khorne Berserkers (complete with 2nd ed. BIG HAND SYNDROME) with something as simple as a sprue recut (to include the Power Weapon and Fist options for the Champion) and they didn't even do that.

What do you mean by your first two sentences?As for KDK I think its a good codex but I play casual games... My KDK consist of Chaos marines, berzerkers, cultists, and possessed. and I have a few deamon units for summoning. what people field and don't field is their choice just like it is to stick with playing C:CSM. I wasn't really having fun playing CSM so I repainted a few of my chaos marine units and rhinos, repainted a few of my cultist units, and I bought of a few new kits too. I love playing them. I think its a much better codex than CSM and I really hope they release other Daemonkin codexs for the other alignments I really do. Its good to look forward to new ways to play.

The Bloodthirster released alongside KDK actually... and I kitbashed my berserker champs powerfist from the chaos marine sprue... and even a few chain swords too. I think they look nice. I'll edit in a moment with a pic.

Honestly this supplement feels more like "evening out" things rather than "screw the Ultramarines". I mean, Ultras still get to use the Tank Detachment, get access to the fun new psychic disciplines, and officially get access to the Skyhammer Annihilation force (ok they had access before but it was an exclusive limited edition formation. This is technically it's first printing outside of that).

Besides, when Codex: Space Marines came out, almost all of the special characters in it got access to a formation of some kind (including Telion still being the ONLY HQ choice for the 10th Company formation). That and the detachment in the vanilla dex was named the Gladius Strike Force. You can't get much more ultramarine than that (A Roman-named Detachment that just so happens to share the same effect as the Ultramarines' Chapter Tactics, no points for guessing who this one was designed for). Angels of Death just gave the other Space Marines a chance to shine.

If any Vanilla chapter needs to complain, it's the Black Templars. They literally get nothing out of the new dex other than some minor formations they can technically bum off of and one lousy Warlords Traits.

And don't get me started on the non-vanilla chapters (coughBloodAngelscough).

I think what the OP is talking about is that other chapters got specific chapter based things in AOD and UMs got nothing exclusive. Saying that he should not complain because he did get stuff is missing the point. I think the OP wanted exclusive UM only stuff like other chapters got.

I personally think its silly for a Space Marine player to complain (I am one), but lets not hate the haters or we become said hater hating on haters for hate hating. They say its not what it is, but it do.

I mean, the Ultramarines did get the ability to take all these formations.

I'm currently planning on running an Ultramarines Skyhammer/1st Company Detachment(Sternguard)/Shadowstrike Kill Team. Good times.

And the only one who didn't need a buff was White Scars, and they got the Hunter's Eye. (Yes, I know that they got them with Kauyon) I mean, seriously, buffing White Scars?

Ultramarines relics would've been nice, even if it was a mediocre banner, a Legatine Axe, and a few other random things.

At the end of the day, I can't really complain as an Ultramarines player, I got a ton more choices to build an army around.

As a csm I found that complain funny Hahaha.

They let marines put bikes as lines, they gave amazing op formations, they gave the op gravitons, try could do immortals IC, lot of bb and chapters rules to mix... And few after the joke of black legion supplements, marines got a bunch of new "toys" and the only think they still didn't copy and improved from chaos: their own four gods disciplines. And that disciplines are, of course, better than chaos ones haha.

So for gw is logic release a bad supplement to improve a bad codex (case of csm and ork codex and their new supplements) and a amazing supplement and new op powers to improve one of the best codex... And space marines players still complain? Yeahhhhh xD

And, to make it more funny, then release the flyers book with, of course, new op plane for marines. Aaaaaand new formations to everyone, but no for csm!!

Sorry, usually I don't care or not take so bad this kind of stuff, but the situation on csm lately looks a bad joke

Spoilered all reactions to save a Wall of Text.

@DarkStarSaber

@master of ordinance

@IlluminNini

@DarkStarSabre (again)

@BrianDavion

@MechaEmperor7000

@Tibs Ironblood

@Crazyterran

This sounds like a disagreement that should be sorted on the tabletop...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
@IlluminNini

IllumiNini wrote:I haven't thought about whether or or not the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics are the most competitive, but the point still stands that Ultramarines don't need any buffs or new content. I'm more curious as to why they thing they actually do need anything? But given you ignored my last question, I don't expect an answer let alone a good answer.

And on a side note, Black Templars really didn't get anything since, based on the quick read-through I did a couple of weeks ago, all they got was a Warlord Traits Table they got in a previous WD Issue and a piece of fluff you can find online.

So why did White Scars get new stuff, when they are arguably the most OP of the vanilla chapters? Did they need buffs? If you can justify WS getting Relics and whatnot, then I can justify UM getting them.

Just because BT didn't get anything (which is just as bad as the UM issue) doesn't mean UM didn't lose out on Relics and Warlord Traits.

All I said was that Ultramarines did not need any buffs or new content. I never said that the White Scars should have got new stuff and I never said that the White Scars were not (overly) powerful. The OP was whinging about Ultramarines not getting anything when they already had so much. I responding by saying that the Ultramarines didn't get bone and gave Black Templars as an example of a Chapter that actually got boned by the supplement. That being said, it is disappointing that Ultramarines didn't get a set of unique relics and warlord traits, but I'd hardly call that being boned when you consider everything else that they already have.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
@IlluminNini

IllumiNini wrote:I haven't thought about whether or or not the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics are the most competitive, but the point still stands that Ultramarines don't need any buffs or new content. I'm more curious as to why they thing they actually do need anything? But given you ignored my last question, I don't expect an answer let alone a good answer.

And on a side note, Black Templars really didn't get anything since, based on the quick read-through I did a couple of weeks ago, all they got was a Warlord Traits Table they got in a previous WD Issue and a piece of fluff you can find online.

So why did White Scars get new stuff, when they are arguably the most OP of the vanilla chapters? Did they need buffs? If you can justify WS getting Relics and whatnot, then I can justify UM getting them.

Just because BT didn't get anything (which is just as bad as the UM issue) doesn't mean UM didn't lose out on Relics and Warlord Traits.

All I said was that Ultramarines did not need any buffs or new content. I never said that the White Scars should have got new stuff and I never said that the White Scars were not (overly) powerful. The OP was whinging about Ultramarines not getting anything when they already had so much. I responding by saying that the Ultramarines didn't get bone and gave Black Templars as an example of a Chapter that actually got boned by the supplement. That being said, it is disappointing that Ultramarines didn't get a set of unique relics and warlord traits, but I'd hardly call that being boned when you consider everything else that they already have.

Well, as BA and CSM are worse, one could make the point that BT don't need anything. /devil's advocate

However, you have also failed to justify why White Scars got buffs. OP has a reason to complain when WS are arguably so much better, and STILL got a buff.

Again - I'm not saying UM are boned. I'm saying it sucks that they received nothing unique to them with the AoD supplement.

I don't think I jave to justify it at all. The OP said that Ultramarines got boned (which I disagree with). If the OP had gone into more depth such as "I disagree the fact that White Scars got buffs and Ultramarines didn't", then I would address the White Scars. But all the OP said was "Ultramarines got boned and I wasted my money", so I have no inherent need to justify the buffs to the White Scars.

 IllumiNini wrote:
I don't think I jave to justify it at all. The OP said that Ultramarines got boned (which I disagree with). If the OP had gone into more depth such as "I disagree the fact that White Scars got buffs and Ultramarines didn't", then I would address the White Scars. But all the OP said was "Ultramarines got boned and I wasted my money", so I have no inherent need to justify the buffs to the White Scars.

So why do you ask the OP to justify if the UM need anything when you can't do it yourself? Seems a little unfair to ask that IMHO.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
I don't think I jave to justify it at all. The OP said that Ultramarines got boned (which I disagree with). If the OP had gone into more depth such as "I disagree the fact that White Scars got buffs and Ultramarines didn't", then I would address the White Scars. But all the OP said was "Ultramarines got boned and I wasted my money", so I have no inherent need to justify the buffs to the White Scars.

So why do you ask the OP to justify if the UM need anything when you can't do it yourself? Seems a little unfair to ask that IMHO.

So Im asking the OP to justify why he thinks the Ultramarines need a buffs (which is something I disagree with) and now all of a sudden I'm being unfair on the OP because I'm refusing to justify the White Scars getting buffs (which I also disagree) on your request? That makes no sense to me...

You disagree that White Scars should get anything - why? That is literally all I asked.

Maybe the Gladius Strike Force/Codex Relics should have had an errata to only allow Chapter Tactics: Ultramarines.

(free transports is a separate issue).

Then every Codex: SM chapter gets their own super detachment.

Franarok wrote:
As a csm I found that complain funny Hahaha.

They let marines put bikes as lines, they gave amazing op formations, they gave the op gravitons, try could do immortals IC, lot of bb and chapters rules to mix... And few after the joke of black legion supplements, marines got a bunch of new "toys" and the only think they still didn't copy and improved from chaos: their own four gods disciplines. And that disciplines are, of course, better than chaos ones haha.

So for gw is logic release a bad supplement to improve a bad codex (case of csm and ork codex and their new supplements) and a amazing supplement and new op powers to improve one of the best codex... And space marines players still complain? Yeahhhhh xD

And, to make it more funny, then release the flyers book with, of course, new op plane for marines. Aaaaaand new formations to everyone, but no for csm!!

Sorry, usually I don't care or not take so bad this kind of stuff, but the situation on csm lately looks a bad joke

IMO it exposes which armies the design staff actually play. They really don't know what to do with Chaos or understand the problem because they don't play them.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Franarok wrote:
As a csm I found that complain funny Hahaha.

They let marines put bikes as lines, they gave amazing op formations, they gave the op gravitons, try could do immortals IC, lot of bb and chapters rules to mix... And few after the joke of black legion supplements, marines got a bunch of new "toys" and the only think they still didn't copy and improved from chaos: their own four gods disciplines. And that disciplines are, of course, better than chaos ones haha.

So for gw is logic release a bad supplement to improve a bad codex (case of csm and ork codex and their new supplements) and a amazing supplement and new op powers to improve one of the best codex... And space marines players still complain? Yeahhhhh xD

And, to make it more funny, then release the flyers book with, of course, new op plane for marines. Aaaaaand new formations to everyone, but no for csm!!

Sorry, usually I don't care or not take so bad this kind of stuff, but the situation on csm lately looks a bad joke

IMO it exposes which armies the design staff actually play. They really don't know what to do with Chaos or understand the problem because they don't play them.

I don't think you need to play Chaos to understand their problems.

pm713 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Franarok wrote:
As a csm I found that complain funny Hahaha.

They let marines put bikes as lines, they gave amazing op formations, they gave the op gravitons, try could do immortals IC, lot of bb and chapters rules to mix... And few after the joke of black legion supplements, marines got a bunch of new "toys" and the only think they still didn't copy and improved from chaos: their own four gods disciplines. And that disciplines are, of course, better than chaos ones haha.

So for gw is logic release a bad supplement to improve a bad codex (case of csm and ork codex and their new supplements) and a amazing supplement and new op powers to improve one of the best codex... And space marines players still complain? Yeahhhhh xD

And, to make it more funny, then release the flyers book with, of course, new op plane for marines. Aaaaaand new formations to everyone, but no for csm!!

Sorry, usually I don't care or not take so bad this kind of stuff, but the situation on csm lately looks a bad joke

IMO it exposes which armies the design staff actually play. They really don't know what to do with Chaos or understand the problem because they don't play them.

I don't think you need to play Chaos to understand their problems.

You at least have to have exposure to them and their problems though. I rarely play against Chaos, so although I know they have an outdated codex, I've no idea what's actually making them so under powered.

 General Kroll wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Franarok wrote:
As a csm I found that complain funny Hahaha.

They let marines put bikes as lines, they gave amazing op formations, they gave the op gravitons, try could do immortals IC, lot of bb and chapters rules to mix... And few after the joke of black legion supplements, marines got a bunch of new "toys" and the only think they still didn't copy and improved from chaos: their own four gods disciplines. And that disciplines are, of course, better than chaos ones haha.

So for gw is logic release a bad supplement to improve a bad codex (case of csm and ork codex and their new supplements) and a amazing supplement and new op powers to improve one of the best codex... And space marines players still complain? Yeahhhhh xD

And, to make it more funny, then release the flyers book with, of course, new op plane for marines. Aaaaaand new formations to everyone, but no for csm!!

Sorry, usually I don't care or not take so bad this kind of stuff, but the situation on csm lately looks a bad joke

IMO it exposes which armies the design staff actually play. They really don't know what to do with Chaos or understand the problem because they don't play them.

I don't think you need to play Chaos to understand their problems.

You at least have to have exposure to them and their problems though. I rarely play against Chaos, so although I know they have an outdated codex, I've no idea what's actually making them so under powered.

I agree with that. Although arguably all you'd have to do is interact with your community more to find the problems.

They should've gotten their own Formation Detachment and Relics, but oh well.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement?

You've already got your own codex, let the little guys have some fun.

And don't forget you got cataphractii and contemptor rules, and I'm pretty sure any chapter may use those formations in there.

That is not true. SM codex has all of the chapters in AOD special rules. UM are the only chapter that didn't get a special formation in AOD. Truthfully they are totally boned and competitively are an unplayable chapter. Why? Because gladius effectively gives everyone ultramarine chapter tactics for free! Ultramarines get no benefit from have double the doctrines to call as most games are over in 4 turns anyways. The good news is you can use whatever tactics you want regardless of how you painted you marines. Personally I use IH tactics. However I am painted like a smurf.

Alright Chumps. Let's do this. Leeeeeroooooooooooooy...............

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:*Looks into thread. Reads about Ultramarine player complaining that they didn't get even more shiny formations and toys. Shakes head sadly.*

Ultramarines have more special characters in comparison to any other CSM chapter - Calgar, Tiberius, Sicarius, Telion and Chronus - all contained within the core book. They're widely acknowledged as the Poster Boys - to such an extent that not only do they have more characters - but these characters are regarded as being better than other chapter equivalents and it has been joked that C:SM is Codex Ultramarines.

And how many of these special characters are viable? Sicarius? Certainly not. Calgar? Land Raider pricing. Chronus? How many points just to get BS5?
The 7th ed codex is far more equal than any codex I remember. 5th really did seem to be C:UM* - but it really is far better now. It's not perfect, but it could be worse.

*Oops?

Angels of Death is a supplement that expands on the OTHER chapters who merely get a mention in the main book so that they don't feel completely shafted.

White Scars. That's all I'm saying.

And...you're complaining Ultramarines didn't get more toys?

I'm complaining that they didn't get so much as a relic unique to them, or some Warlord Traits. And that you seem to think that because they're plain (which is false) they shouldn't get anything special.

You got the disciplines (to use on your superior psyker), you got more formations and you got another decurion detachment as well as 3 'new' units.

You got the same disciplines. Only BT lost out on that. BT should have received something to compensate.
You get the same formations.
We got no special Decurion.
The three units only exist because of BaC. Not to mention that I could take Contemptors via FW anyways. Besides, those special units can be Scouted up by Khan - a unit we can't get.

You know the reason every Marine thread gets 'But Blood Angels are worse?'

Because they are. They suffer from a change in codex direction taking place just after their codex - no fancy decurions or formations for them, save the bandaid formations in Shield of Baal.

But yeah, seeing a UM player complaining they didn't get (even more) shiny toys is kind of salt in the wound for Blood Angels who missed the fancy Decurion and Formation train.

And a red rag to CSM players who basically got to watch Loyallist marines get buffed beyond them twice.

Yeah. Undeniably. But every other vanilla chapter got more too - no need to discriminate against UM players. I'm not denying BA and CSM suck. They shouldn't, and I'd want them to be made equal to their 'nilla cousins.

But screaming "BA HAVE IT WORSE" doesn't mean that UM didn't receive any specific love. As long as you acknowledge that fact, I'd be happy.

@DarkStarSabre (again)

DarkStarSabre wrote:Most do. But then you get the handful, including the OP for this thread who cannot comprehend why they do not get even more shiny toys, or actually have to think to deal with Tau and Eldar armies and cannot just push models across a table and win through stacked stathammer.

You get the handful who seem to believe that CSM being neglected for so long is karma for the 3.5 CSM book while conveniently forgetting the era it existed in where SM, Tau, Eldar, Tyranids and Orks (toward the end of its lifespan) were all pretty ridiculous as well.

I've been told on Dakka that CSM 3.5 and/or Lash of Submission (the only oddity in a god awful and bland 5th ed CSM codex) RUINED 40K FOREVER.

Angels of Death as a supplement was a slap in the face for CSM and Blood Angels - CSM because we not only got completely ignored in all GW's determination to talk about Space Marines and Power Armour (spoiler, we're a type of Space Marine too guys, why you ignore us?) but we got rather poor reprint of some lacklustre supplements with refurbished dataslate and Apocalypse formations thrown in like that was supposed to make everything better - that didn't even bother to try and give us a Decurion style detachment (ala Farsight Enclaves and Waaagh Ghazghkull) and Blood Angels because it further emphasises the gulf between them and every other SM book.

Understandably this thread made me sigh. Some people just don't have any idea about any other part of the game. 'It has an Ultramarine on the cover.' Well, yes, of course it does. Ultramarines are the standard staple Codex marine Chapter. They're generic. They're deliberately generic. So naturally their artwork is on everything and its dog relating to Space Marines.

It doesn't mean that everything is going to be Ultramarines ++. That's really not their intended purpose. You want Ultramarines to NOT be a generic chapter? Go play 30k where each Legion gets its own unique rules.

Firstly, I think you're being unnecessarily hard on the OP. They haven't said CSM or BA shouldn't be buffed. They merely wanted their own Chapter to be treated the same as the others - which is exactly what the BA players ask for. The only difference is that UM aren't (thankfully) in the same position. Just because someone is worse off than you doesn't stop you complaining - if it were so, then either BA or CSM wouldn't have a right to complain, as they both can't be worst.

AoD did suck - it easily COULD have buffed BA and made them a viable force. I'm disappointed they didn't, and I do hope as much as the next BA player that they make the boys in red viable again. But saying that UM are vanilla justifies their lack of Relics and Warlord Traits is not fair either.

We're not saying other Chapters are UM++. But saying UM are the generic Chapter is wrong too - these are (pardon my quote) "the paragons of what a Space Marine should be" (really, Ward? Way to ruin our reputation). The point stands. UM are not the baseline - they are the baseline mastered. They shouldn't have a new Gladius - they should be best at using the Gladius.

Also, your 30k comment can be taken the other way too. "You want BA to be playable? Go play 30k where they're actually playable."
"You want to play proper Iron Warriors? Go play 30k where they actually get their own unique rules."

Still want to use that argument?

DarkStarSabre wrote:I wish to make the following point.

You are playing the chapter that is deliberately designed to be the most generic and vanilla Chapter in the game. They are the poster boys. They are the chapter that you can technically use any formation for and essentially was designed as the vanilla base that other chapters deviated from.

In 2nd ed. the Space Marine codex was Codex: Ultramarines. It was even named as such. You are the vanilla ice cream of the Space Marine world.

Even in fluff and background - you are vanilla. This is intentional. Your primarch wrote the Codex Astartes. Your chapter sticks to it. It is law.

But other chapters? They deviate - in lore, in fluff, in background they have distinct fighting styles, chapter structures and traitrs that the generic flavour of C:SM does not quite enable. This is why they got these extra formations, why they got these decurions and why they got shiny toys in the supplement.

You an make your army functional with your Codex alone.

They have to buy another book to do it correctly.

I'm sorry, I forgot that you developed the UM for GW. Could we see some quotes from GW designers to back up your statement?

Who cares about 2nd Ed? I means nothing now. If we're using prior codexes to fuel some kind of vendetta, then you've admitted that Chaos should be bad now. Which they should not be.

Yes, UM are shown to be "by the book". However, it's also written that they are the "masters of the Codex Astartes" - why are they no better at using the Gladius (the vanilla formation) than any other Chapter? If you wanted to support this, the UM would be better at the basic formation, and other Chapters would have specialised Gladii.

Your logic seems to be "UM are the vanilla Chapter, so it's okay that everyone else should be UM+1". That is not okay.

Also - White Scars are perfectly playable in the base codex.

First - quantity does not equal quality friend. You cannot argue that the Ultramarines are more heavily represented in the core SM codex than any other chapter - in terms of numbers of characters, background material and even display miniaures and colour schemes. That is the point I made and that point still stands. Whether or not their characters are truly viable or not is another matter altogether. That has no impact on their representation as a whole. You can open the book and spot 6 UM SCs - the next closest is ironically BTs with Grimaldus and Helbrecht. 6 to 2. Everyone else gets 1. If that's not an indicator of who is the poster chapter then I do not know what is. And when you consider the OP's original issue was 'It has an ultramarine on the cover' - well that's the reason. UMs are the SM poster boys. They're the generic staple SM. So naturally their art is going to be used. Their army is going to be displayed. Even in the background the UM are the Space Marine-iest Space Marines that ever did Space Marine. Their primarch wrote ye old book of Space Marines and that's always been their sticking point. They are repeatedly stated as having the most successor chapters of any of the original Legions and their virtues are harped so much that the background is one giant UM lovefest. Heck, they even had more model-less SCs than any other chapter at one point as well.

Second - White Scars is not a counter point to anything. In fact, your later complaints regarding Blood Angels and CSM seem remarkably hypocritical when you try to make a rebuttal like this. Shot yourself in the foot, you just did.

Third - I'll happily state that Warlord Traits or relics probably wouldn't have gone amiss. But I wouldn't state they needed a whole Decurion formation of their very own - that sort of defeats the point of them being so very adherent to the Codex Astartes. Every other chapter there, though technically compliant have deviated from the Codex Astartes - White Scars and Raven Guard with their combat styles, Black Templars, Iron Hands and Salamanders go as far as breaking Chapter structure and set up. The oddity to me is Imperial Fists who pretty much also seemed like they were meant to be intentionally as bland as the UMs.

Also, CSM didn't get any of those Disciplines. Or formations. Tsk.

Fourth - We knew AoD was going to be a SM specific supplement. Expecting it to buff BA? Nope. They're a standalone codex. You do not expect a supplement for another Codex to buff your own - that's just common sense mate. I think the closest chance BA had was Shield of Baal but unfortunately that was also just before the design direction switched to Decurion/Formation stacks and away from the traditional FOC approach (which is what DE, GK, Orks, IG, BA and SW originally got in their books - SW got the update to add a Decurion with Fenris and the Orks and IG got their decurion options from Kauyon and a supplement update).

Once more - Warlord Traits or Relics? I'd have been fine with. A Decurion that essentially opens up options for a playstyle that deviates from the Codex Astartes? No no no. That is not the UM way. Only going to meet you halfway there.

Fifth - Your 30k snippet there. Cute.

Codex CSM - 3.5. Black Legion were the generic Legion - this was represented by them being able to use anything from the codex. In that respect Black Legion were the Chaos equivalent of the Ultramarines - able to use anything from their book, no restrictions, jack of all trades but master of none approach.

Iron Warriors - who you imply are a 'generic' Chaos Legion...hoo boy. Had their own page of rules to allow players to construct an Iron Warriors army. It restricted their options - they lost Daemons (which were very potent at the time), they lost Marks of Chaos (which were used to make the Cult units) and in return they got Siege Specialists, access to Servo arms, an altered FOC and less restrictive access to Obliterators. For the record, they were never a generic Chaos Legion. If you're going to try to make that comparison please make sure you get your facts straight.

In fact, the 3.5 book gave all the Legions these mini-pages to allow varied forces to be made. But that went with the following codex.

You forget that CSM don't have a Chapter Tactics equivalent - you know, those bonus little rules that allow you to represent your chosen chapter so that your Tactical Marine is different from their Tactical Marine.

Sixth - EYYYY. We're now at ad-hominen attacks on my person. Well done.

Who cares about 2nd ed? Well, all that background you love, all that fun fluff and lore all came from 2nd ed. 2nd ed is the edition that made 40k into what it is. It's where most of the armies developed and formed. In fact, back in the older WDs they acknowledge the 2nd ed miniatures were the primary design influences for...all the Eldar Aspect Warriors (they deviated in 3rd and went back toward the 2nd ed. Aesthetic in 3rd) and Tyranids (the current Hive Tyrant design is a nod toward the 2nd ed. Tyrant after the 3rd ed. Alien Queen approach). Hilariously enough the more recent limited SM character releases (Centos and the web exclusive Captains) are updated 2nd ed designs - as was 4th ed DA captain and the GD Blood Angel Sergeant who is a homage to the 2nd ed cover art.

2nd ed. gave us the seeds for Inquisition armies and Ad-Mech armies (they were a handful of units in the core books) and introduced Sisters of Battle and Necrons into 40k proper.

In fact, the only factions who probably don't care about 2nd ed or any of the lore from it would be Tau and Dark Eldar to be frank.

But hey, who cares about 2nd ed, right?

Oh, and by the way - 2nd ed. also described the various fighting styles of the Chapters - it's like that background is the basis for the variation we see today.




...... JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENKINS!

 6^ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Translation:
"Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"

You don't know me, you don't know my style of play. I think it's unfair for you to make that criticism. I play for fluff not for power FYI.

The amount of times I hear "Play for fluff" from Marine players and see their "fluffy Marine armies" that just happen to be composed of the most powerful and broken combinations within their codex is laughable.

Vanilla Space Marines did not need a buff. They did not need this supplement and they sure as hell did not need Geomancy which, lets be honest here, should be Chaos only.
So what Ultramarines did not get everything, thats life. Thems the breaks kiddo.

As someone else once said in another thread:

Because woe betide that SM players would ever have to apply more than brute force

 master of ordinance wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Translation:
"Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"

You don't know me, you don't know my style of play. I think it's unfair for you to make that criticism. I play for fluff not for power FYI.

The amount of times I hear "Play for fluff" from Marine players and see their "fluffy Marine armies" that just happen to be composed of the most powerful and broken combinations within their codex is laughable.

Vanilla Space Marines did not need a buff. They did not need this supplement and they sure as hell did not need Geomancy which, lets be honest here, should be Chaos only.
So what Ultramarines did not get everything, thats life. Thems the breaks kiddo.

As someone else once said in another thread:

Because woe betide that SM players would ever have to apply more than brute force

Man, how's that axe your grinding? Did a Space Marine player walk over and break all your models?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement?

You've already got your own codex, let the little guys have some fun.

And don't forget you got cataphractii and contemptor rules, and I'm pretty sure any chapter may use those formations in there.

Truthfully they are totally boned and competitively are an unplayable chapter.

Now I'm no expert on tournament winners or lists but I can bet a good sum that Ultra's aren't an "unplayable chapter". Every turn tactical doctrine or dev doctrine or whatever it is sounds good to me. Not to mention the general power level of the SM codex, and Tigurius is a good choice too. "unplayable" my arse

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement?

You've already got your own codex, let the little guys have some fun.

And don't forget you got cataphractii and contemptor rules, and I'm pretty sure any chapter may use those formations in there.

Truthfully they are totally boned and competitively are an unplayable chapter.

Now I'm no expert on tournament winners or lists but I can bet a good sum that Ultra's aren't an "unplayable chapter". Every turn tactical doctrine or dev doctrine or whatever it is sounds good to me. Not to mention the general power level of the SM codex, and Tigurius is a good choice too. "unplayable" my arse

Ultramarines are still strong, but trust me, they're no tournament winner. The new tournament winners are some combination of Iron Hands Librarians on bikes, Ravenwing bikes, White Scars bikes, and Thunderwolf Cavalry. I haven't seen UM at a tournament in a while.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Translation:
"Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"

You don't know me, you don't know my style of play. I think it's unfair for you to make that criticism. I play for fluff not for power FYI.

The amount of times I hear "Play for fluff" from Marine players and see their "fluffy Marine armies" that just happen to be composed of the most powerful and broken combinations within their codex is laughable.

Vanilla Space Marines did not need a buff. They did not need this supplement and they sure as hell did not need Geomancy which, lets be honest here, should be Chaos only.
So what Ultramarines did not get everything, thats life. Thems the breaks kiddo.

As someone else once said in another thread:

Because woe betide that SM players would ever have to apply more than brute force

Man, how's that axe your grinding? Did a Space Marine player walk over and break all your models?

Or perhaps I am fed up of being smashed almost every time I play. If I try to push objectives I get mown down and massacred and if I instead try to hold I still get brutalised but my opponent also claims obscene amounts of victory points. because I cannot contest him.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement?

You've already got your own codex, let the little guys have some fun.

And don't forget you got cataphractii and contemptor rules, and I'm pretty sure any chapter may use those formations in there.

Truthfully they are totally boned and competitively are an unplayable chapter.

Now I'm no expert on tournament winners or lists but I can bet a good sum that Ultra's aren't an "unplayable chapter". Every turn tactical doctrine or dev doctrine or whatever it is sounds good to me. Not to mention the general power level of the SM codex, and Tigurius is a good choice too. "unplayable" my arse

The point im trying to make is that gladius is the best way to run space marines right now and gladius effectively gives you the ultramarines tactics. They don't stack with ultramarines because of this. If White scars or IH play gladius they effectively has 2 chapter tactics. Thats much better than one. Tiguris is awesome but doesn't really fit in or have anything useful to do in gladius plus he is not on a bike.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Translation:
"Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"

You don't know me, you don't know my style of play. I think it's unfair for you to make that criticism. I play for fluff not for power FYI.

The amount of times I hear "Play for fluff" from Marine players and see their "fluffy Marine armies" that just happen to be composed of the most powerful and broken combinations within their codex is laughable.

Vanilla Space Marines did not need a buff. They did not need this supplement and they sure as hell did not need Geomancy which, lets be honest here, should be Chaos only.
So what Ultramarines did not get everything, thats life. Thems the breaks kiddo.

As someone else once said in another thread:

Because woe betide that SM players would ever have to apply more than brute force

Man, how's that axe your grinding? Did a Space Marine player walk over and break all your models?

Or perhaps I am fed up of being smashed almost every time I play. If I try to push objectives I get mown down and massacred and if I instead try to hold I still get brutalised but my opponent also claims obscene amounts of victory points. because I cannot contest him.

What army do you play?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Translation:
"Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"

You don't know me, you don't know my style of play. I think it's unfair for you to make that criticism. I play for fluff not for power FYI.

The amount of times I hear "Play for fluff" from Marine players and see their "fluffy Marine armies" that just happen to be composed of the most powerful and broken combinations within their codex is laughable.

Vanilla Space Marines did not need a buff. They did not need this supplement and they sure as hell did not need Geomancy which, lets be honest here, should be Chaos only.
So what Ultramarines did not get everything, thats life. Thems the breaks kiddo.

As someone else once said in another thread:

Because woe betide that SM players would ever have to apply more than brute force

Man, how's that axe your grinding? Did a Space Marine player walk over and break all your models?

Or perhaps I am fed up of being smashed almost every time I play. If I try to push objectives I get mown down and massacred and if I instead try to hold I still get brutalised but my opponent also claims obscene amounts of victory points. because I cannot contest him.

I'm convinced you have no idea what you are doing. IG is actually one of the BETTER lists against the Gladius, because of mass autocannon/multilaser spam. You don't have to worry about gladius shooting you off the time. Skyhammer can be gamed against as well. I know, because I do it with the lowly BA. Invisible deathstars and things like smashfucker are where it gets ugly for you. Even then, you only need one stubbon squad to potentially neuter smashfucker. Drop pod attacks against guard usually end up costing the marines more than they kill if you don't use Russ hulls.

IG suffers more against Tau and Eldar, because they play the IG game, but better. Much better. Marines are playing a different angle that is not nearly as bad for IG.

EnTyme wrote:

What army do you play?

Imperial Guard. Currently second/third from the bottom in terms of strength.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm convinced you have no idea what you are doing. IG is actually one of the BETTER lists against the Gladius, because of mass autocannon/multilaser spam. You don't have to worry about gladius shooting you off the time. Skyhammer can be gamed against as well.

Skyhammer can be prevented? Guard can crack Gladius like eggs? Just what kind of Guard players are you up against Martel - are you sure that they are bringing equal points to you?

They know what they are doing. Unlike what I gather from you.

BA, csm, Nids, de, and orks are all worse off than ig. It's still a shooting army in a shooting edition. If you cripple yourself with bad lists, that's very anecdotal.

No need to be rude, Martel. Try constructive criticism for a change and see where it leads you.

master of ordinance, IG armored lists can generally make short work of the Gladius, particularly LRBTs and Pasknisher lists. The draft FAQ confirmed that only one grenade can be used per phase, including the assault phase, so you shouldn't be too worried about Skyhammers with an armored list, either.

Martel732 wrote:
They know what they are doing. Unlike what I gather from you.

BA, csm, Nids, de, and orks are all worse off than ig. It's still a shooting army in a shooting edition. If you cripple yourself with bad lists, that's very anecdotal.

Or.... Vanilla marines are hideously overpowered. Note that I never mentioned CSM. Nids can run MC spam lists and Flyrants, both of which beat IG hands down and DA are still powerful.

 master of ordinance wrote:

EnTyme wrote:

What army do you play?

Imperial Guard. Currently second/third from the bottom in terms of strength.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm convinced you have no idea what you are doing. IG is actually one of the BETTER lists against the Gladius, because of mass autocannon/multilaser spam. You don't have to worry about gladius shooting you off the time. Skyhammer can be gamed against as well.

Skyhammer can be prevented? Guard can crack Gladius like eggs? Just what kind of Guard players are you up against Martel - are you sure that they are bringing equal points to you?

Ask your friend to tone down their lists. If you're in a tourney, I have no sympathy for you, as tournies are supposed to be all out slug fests.

Guard can actually do well against Gladius. LRBT can put out a bunch of pie plates. Skyhammer is tougher. The only thing I'd say is try to bubble wrap your tanks with Conscripts to deny assaults and give some cover against MultiMeltas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They know what they are doing. Unlike what I gather from you.

BA, csm, Nids, de, and orks are all worse off than ig. It's still a shooting army in a shooting edition. If you cripple yourself with bad lists, that's very anecdotal.

Or.... Vanilla marines are hideously overpowered. Note that I never mentioned CSM. Nids can run MC spam lists and Flyrants, both of which beat IG hands down and DA are still powerful.

As are Eldar and Tau. Your point?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They know what they are doing. Unlike what I gather from you.

BA, csm, Nids, de, and orks are all worse off than ig. It's still a shooting army in a shooting edition. If you cripple yourself with bad lists, that's very anecdotal.

Or.... Vanilla marines are hideously overpowered. Note that I never mentioned CSM. Nids can run MC spam lists and Flyrants, both of which beat IG hands down and DA are still powerful.

IG have the firepower to gun down foot Nids for sure, and hydras are quite viable, especially once the new flyer rules get rolled in 8th. BA and CSM lack the firepower of IG, and their MCs ignore all of our expensive armor. IT's a much worse matchup for us.

Vanilla marines are not hideously overpowered because my games against them are much more competitive than Eldar or Tau. They just have the tools to outlast the Eldar/Tau. You can kill Gladius with IG. I've watched it done. And neither side rolled very poorly or well. 12 autocannons and 8 multilasers kill the gak out of Rhino hulls.

@ master of ordinance
If you are having trouble with marines may I suggest a few things? I've had my arse handed to me so many times by IG I can't even count. LR executioner (IMO this is an auto include for IG - take at least 2 vs everyone 75% of the time you are playing an army that this thing absolutely murders). Then take a unit of 3 wyverns. The rest of your army should be infantry - with lots of plasma and melta. Vets/platoon - both good options. Take a unit of 30 conscripts with a commissar and a psyker fishing for 4+ invo save or invis to tie up a deathstar. You will win more than you lose with this list vs a marine army.

 Xenomancers wrote:
@ master of ordinance
If you are having trouble with marines may I suggest a few things? I've had my arse handed to me so many times by IG I can't even count. LR executioner (IMO this is an auto include for IG - take at least 2 vs everyone 75% of the time you are playing an army that this thing absolutely murders). Then take a unit of 3 wyverns. The rest of your army should be infantry - with lots of plasma and melta. Vets/platoon - both good options. Take a unit of 30 conscripts with a commissar and a psyker fishing for 4+ invo save or invis to tie up a deathstar. You will win more than you lose with this list vs a marine army.

Or go with 6 X divination psykers and no Russes. That is actually brutal in practice for marines.

You can go that route with blob gayrd like 450 rending lasgun shots a turn? This hurts a lot actually.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You can go that route with blob gayrd like 450 rending lasgun shots a turn? This hurts a lot actually.

Giving large squads 4++, the full BS overwatch, rerolls to hit, and access to rending are all huge. Divination is hands down awesomesauce for IG.

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

Why didn't you have a flick through the book before you bought it? The 3rd edition Codex: Space Wolves had some Orks on the front cover, but I didn't just up and buy it for my Orks...

Besides which, you're making out like there is literally nothing new or usable for UM players which is just incorrect.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They know what they are doing. Unlike what I gather from you.

BA, csm, Nids, de, and orks are all worse off than ig. It's still a shooting army in a shooting edition. If you cripple yourself with bad lists, that's very anecdotal.

Or.... Vanilla marines are hideously overpowered. Note that I never mentioned CSM. Nids can run MC spam lists and Flyrants, both of which beat IG hands down and DA are still powerful.

Vanilla Marines aren't "hideously OP". Some of the bullgak we can pull off is OP, but we are far from Eldar and Tau levels of silliness. Perhaps you should see about removing the chip from your shoulder? As another Guard player I don't have that hard of a time against Gladius

 Xenomancers wrote:
You can go that route with blob gayrd like 450 rending lasgun shots a turn? This hurts a lot actually.

Not really. That requires and investment of 185 points for the Infantry plus another 50 for a single ML 1 Primaris psyker, and given that you will want more than one bite at the cherry to have a chance of getting the rending power you will want him to be ML 2 costing another 25 points. And maybe a second psyker just to be sure, another 50 points.
So now we have a 310 point unit that, within 12" and assuming it passes its LD checks and the psykers get the right powers and they get them off, can put out 450 rending Lasgun shots.
Assuming your opponent lets it live long enough to make it to 12", after all it lacks the ability to take transports and is too large to take advantage of any cover and will be mown down by Bolters.
And assuming that your opponent does not just use a Precision Shot unit to kill the Officer.
Or the Psykers.

I really do not know why you Marine players seem to think that blobguard is a threat, in this age of powerhammer 40K it really is not.

 War Kitten wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They know what they are doing. Unlike what I gather from you.

BA, csm, Nids, de, and orks are all worse off than ig. It's still a shooting army in a shooting edition. If you cripple yourself with bad lists, that's very anecdotal.

Or.... Vanilla marines are hideously overpowered. Note that I never mentioned CSM. Nids can run MC spam lists and Flyrants, both of which beat IG hands down and DA are still powerful.

Vanilla Marines aren't "hideously OP". Some of the bullgak we can pull off is OP, but we are far from Eldar and Tau levels of silliness. Perhaps you should see about removing the chip from your shoulder? As another Guard player I don't have that hard of a time against Gladius

Nothing says OP like T3 infantry costing anything between the price of a Marine and twice that.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You can go that route with blob gayrd like 450 rending lasgun shots a turn? This hurts a lot actually.

Not really. That requires and investment of 185 points for the Infantry plus another 50 for a single ML 1 Primaris psyker, and given that you will want more than one bite at the cherry to have a chance of getting the rending power you will want him to be ML 2 costing another 25 points. And maybe a second psyker just to be sure, another 50 points.
So now we have a 310 point unit that, within 12" and assuming it passes its LD checks and the psykers get the right powers and they get them off, can put out 450 rending Lasgun shots.
Assuming your opponent lets it live long enough to make it to 12", after all it lacks the ability to take transports and is too large to take advantage of any cover and will be mown down by Bolters.
And assuming that your opponent does not just use a Precision Shot unit to kill the Officer.
Or the Psykers.

I really do not know why you Marine players seem to think that blobguard is a threat, in this age of powerhammer 40K it really is not.

Just because you can't pull it off, doesn't mean it's not a threat. The number of psykers you use is six. Or at minimum, four. It's not just about misfortune. It's about unit buffs hitting huge numbers of models on top of orders. If you have a perfect timing psyker, you can then use your order to get twin linked vs vehicles. Gladius is not known for psyker defense. This combo ends gladius shenanigans pretty quickly. Quit using overcosted Russ hulls and you'll have points for this.

"er and will be mown down by Bolters. "

Nothing gets mowed down by bolters, especially if it has a 4++ save. A full spread of 10 bolters in rapid fire range kills a massive six guardsmen in 5++ cover. The marines will NEVER win at that rate. This goes down to 4.5 guardsmen with a 4++ save. Do math. It works.

 Xenomancers wrote:
@ master of ordinance
If you are having trouble with marines may I suggest a few things? I've had my arse handed to me so many times by IG I can't even count. LR executioner (IMO this is an auto include for IG - take at least 2 vs everyone 75% of the time you are playing an army that this thing absolutely murders). Then take a unit of 3 wyverns. The rest of your army should be infantry - with lots of plasma and melta. Vets/platoon - both good options. Take a unit of 30 conscripts with a commissar and a psyker fishing for 4+ invo save or invis to tie up a deathstar. You will win more than you lose with this list vs a marine army.

The executioner is a dead model. You will glance yourself to death in about three turns of shooting. You can not reroll the gets hot results with PE. It was a good model when people were playing it with PE allowing rerolls but now 5 gets hot rolls a turn is brutal.

Regarding this thread it's entirely whiney bullcrap the majority of angels of death is reprinted stuff that's been out for over 6months. You got new psychic powers and 30k dreads that any space marine chapter can use..... That's it... The rest is old reprinted crap.... And your whining about it... Seriously??

Executioners fired small blasts. I never found it that scary.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

Why didn't you have a flick through the book before you bought it? The 3rd edition Codex: Space Wolves had some Orks on the front cover, but I didn't just up and buy it for my Orks...

Besides which, you're making out like there is literally nothing new or usable for UM players which is just incorrect.

I saw a few pages, it looked interesting, I didn't have much time.
I feel like that comparison isn't fair at least it was titles Codex:Space Wolves. But anyways I've already conceded the point.
I've conceded that point too, Someone else asked me earlier what I was hoping to get out of this thread and the answer it turned out was reconciliation. I just like talking about warhammer really. I bought a product and wanted to talk about it. I was kind of hurt how this thread turned out though, with people attacking me personally instead of my opinion. For instance I feel like you are implying pretty heavily my stupidity when you talked about how you didn't buy codex space wolves for your ork army, but I did make that mistake by buying AoD for my ultramarine army.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

Why didn't you have a flick through the book before you bought it? The 3rd edition Codex: Space Wolves had some Orks on the front cover, but I didn't just up and buy it for my Orks...

Besides which, you're making out like there is literally nothing new or usable for UM players which is just incorrect.

Tbf, some stores do shrinkwrap them or otherwise frown on one for reading a book beforehand.
I don't think anyone's claiming that UM got nothing. They just got nothing of their own, and with the Gladius practically giving UM tactics anyways, there's even less reason to actually take them.

 6^ wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

Why didn't you have a flick through the book before you bought it? The 3rd edition Codex: Space Wolves had some Orks on the front cover, but I didn't just up and buy it for my Orks...

Besides which, you're making out like there is literally nothing new or usable for UM players which is just incorrect.

I saw a few pages, it looked interesting, I didn't have much time.
I feel like that comparison isn't fair at least it was titles Codex:Space Wolves. But anyways I've already conceded the point.
I've conceded that point too, Someone else asked me earlier what I was hoping to get out of this thread and the answer it turned out was reconciliation. I just like talking about warhammer really. I bought a product and wanted to talk about it. I was kind of hurt how this thread turned out though, with people attacking me personally instead of my opinion. For instance I feel like you are implying pretty heavily my stupidity when you talked about how you didn't buy codex space wolves for your ork army, but I did make that mistake by buying AoD for my ultramarine army.

I'm really not trying to be an ass, but why don't you just return it? I mean was it really necessary to bring it to the forums in the form of "Why didn't my Space Marines get anything of our very own?" when there are probably a dozen other armies that would give up globs of content just to have the equivalent of what the Smurfs got in the original dex? On top of that you got access to 30k units and around 20 new formations on top of 4 psychic disciplines?

I really can't help but imagine a slave masters kid whining about not getting seconds while a dozen starving slaves just sigh and roll their eyes.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

Why didn't you have a flick through the book before you bought it? The 3rd edition Codex: Space Wolves had some Orks on the front cover, but I didn't just up and buy it for my Orks...

Besides which, you're making out like there is literally nothing new or usable for UM players which is just incorrect.

I saw a few pages, it looked interesting, I didn't have much time.
I feel like that comparison isn't fair at least it was titles Codex:Space Wolves. But anyways I've already conceded the point.
I've conceded that point too, Someone else asked me earlier what I was hoping to get out of this thread and the answer it turned out was reconciliation. I just like talking about warhammer really. I bought a product and wanted to talk about it. I was kind of hurt how this thread turned out though, with people attacking me personally instead of my opinion. For instance I feel like you are implying pretty heavily my stupidity when you talked about how you didn't buy codex space wolves for your ork army, but I did make that mistake by buying AoD for my ultramarine army.

I'm really not trying to be an ass, but why don't you just return it? I mean was it really necessary to bring it to the forums in the form of "Why didn't my Space Marines get anything of our very own?" when there are probably a dozen other armies that would give up globs of content just to have the equivalent of what the Smurfs got in the original dex? On top of that you got access to 30k units and around 20 new formations on top of 4 psychic disciplines?

I really can't help but imagine a slave masters kid whining about not getting seconds while a dozen starving slaves just sigh and roll their eyes.

Again, I'm just assuming on the OP's part, but at least from me, I want to make this clear:
I WANT EQUALITY FOR ALL FACTIONS.
Every codex should be playable with a multitude of possible army types, and there should not be an "auto-win" faction.

However, I can still think that and also point out that UM did not receive the same amount of stuff as other chapters got in the AoD book. Does anyone dispute the point that they did not receive exactly equal coverage?
For anyone saying that "UM shouldn't have anything special as they are the vanilla plain chapter" - maybe they should be plain. But they should be the best at being plain, and have bonuses when using the Gladius then? That would represent how they perfected the "standard" SM doctrine.

Saying that UM did not receive certain things =/= advocating poor army balance. You're being very hard on the OP.

Also, returning might not be a solution - the store own may have a no returns policy, or something along those lines. The OP could sell the book, but will not get their original price unless one of you fellows would refund them?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

Why didn't you have a flick through the book before you bought it? The 3rd edition Codex: Space Wolves had some Orks on the front cover, but I didn't just up and buy it for my Orks...

Besides which, you're making out like there is literally nothing new or usable for UM players which is just incorrect.

I saw a few pages, it looked interesting, I didn't have much time.
I feel like that comparison isn't fair at least it was titles Codex:Space Wolves. But anyways I've already conceded the point.
I've conceded that point too, Someone else asked me earlier what I was hoping to get out of this thread and the answer it turned out was reconciliation. I just like talking about warhammer really. I bought a product and wanted to talk about it. I was kind of hurt how this thread turned out though, with people attacking me personally instead of my opinion. For instance I feel like you are implying pretty heavily my stupidity when you talked about how you didn't buy codex space wolves for your ork army, but I did make that mistake by buying AoD for my ultramarine army.

I'm really not trying to be an ass, but why don't you just return it? I mean was it really necessary to bring it to the forums in the form of "Why didn't my Space Marines get anything of our very own?" when there are probably a dozen other armies that would give up globs of content just to have the equivalent of what the Smurfs got in the original dex? On top of that you got access to 30k units and around 20 new formations on top of 4 psychic disciplines?

I really can't help but imagine a slave masters kid whining about not getting seconds while a dozen starving slaves just sigh and roll their eyes.

Again, I'm just assuming on the OP's part, but at least from me, I want to make this clear:
I WANT EQUALITY FOR ALL FACTIONS.
Every codex should be playable with a multitude of possible army types, and there should not be an "auto-win" faction.

However, I can still think that and also point out that UM did not receive the same amount of stuff as other chapters got in the AoD book. Does anyone dispute the point that they did not receive exactly equal coverage?
For anyone saying that "UM shouldn't have anything special as they are the vanilla plain chapter" - maybe they should be plain. But they should be the best at being plain, and have bonuses when using the Gladius then? That would represent how they perfected the "standard" SM doctrine.

Saying that UM did not receive certain things =/= advocating poor army balance. You're being very hard on the OP.

Also, returning might not be a solution - the store own may have a no returns policy, or something along those lines. The OP could sell the book, but will not get their original price unless one of you fellows would refund them?

Even if there is a no refunds policy, he can use at least 4/5th of the books content. It's not exactly like the man got cheated. And no one's disputing that UM didn't get anything chapter specific. Pretty sure that was agreed upon on page 1. This is page 4 and now we're telling master of ordinance how to better run his guard not beating a dead horse.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Even if there is a no refunds policy, he can use at least 4/5th of the books content. It's not exactly like the man got cheated. And no one's disputing that UM didn't get anything chapter specific. Pretty sure that was agreed upon on page 1. This is page 4 and now we're telling master of ordinance how to better run his guard not beating a dead horse.

OP may not have the models to use some of the new formations, units, and powers (no Librarians, no BaC - because let's face it, the only reason the Cataphractii stuff exist is because of BaC and nothing else - or all models are already in a formation).

If OP expected UM specific stuff and didn't get any UM specific stuff, then actually - yeah, they did get cheated. Hell, if I was planning on getting the book in the first place, and I found out that everyone else got bonuses EXCEPT the UM, I'd feel cheated.

We can agree that UM didn't receive equal stuff compared to the other C:SM Chapters? So why didn't they? Is it fair that - SOLELY compared to the other C:SM chapters in the 7th Ed codex - they received less?

So, we're off topic then?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Even if there is a no refunds policy, he can use at least 4/5th of the books content. It's not exactly like the man got cheated. And no one's disputing that UM didn't get anything chapter specific. Pretty sure that was agreed upon on page 1. This is page 4 and now we're telling master of ordinance how to better run his guard not beating a dead horse.

OP may not have the models to use some of the new formations, units, and powers (no Librarians, no BaC - because let's face it, the only reason the Cataphractii stuff exist is because of BaC and nothing else - or all models are already in a formation).

If OP expected UM specific stuff and didn't get any UM specific stuff, then actually - yeah, they did get cheated. Hell, if I was planning on getting the book in the first place, and I found out that everyone else got bonuses EXCEPT the UM, I'd feel cheated.

We can agree that UM didn't receive equal stuff compared to the other C:SM Chapters? So why didn't they? Is it fair that - SOLELY compared to the other C:SM chapters in the 7th Ed codex - they received less?

So, we're off topic then?

No, I don't think it's fair. I don't think many rational people would argue it is. This is where we start to border on the equality argument. I expected a playable dex for my red marines, but I sure as hell didn't get one. Pretty sure that there are thousands of dakka members GW hoses quarterly and I rarely ever see a thread about "fairness" because they didn't get the content they/we wanted.

And yea, we've been off topic for a good while now.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Even if there is a no refunds policy, he can use at least 4/5th of the books content. It's not exactly like the man got cheated. And no one's disputing that UM didn't get anything chapter specific. Pretty sure that was agreed upon on page 1. This is page 4 and now we're telling master of ordinance how to better run his guard not beating a dead horse.

OP may not have the models to use some of the new formations, units, and powers (no Librarians, no BaC - because let's face it, the only reason the Cataphractii stuff exist is because of BaC and nothing else - or all models are already in a formation).

If OP expected UM specific stuff and didn't get any UM specific stuff, then actually - yeah, they did get cheated. Hell, if I was planning on getting the book in the first place, and I found out that everyone else got bonuses EXCEPT the UM, I'd feel cheated.

We can agree that UM didn't receive equal stuff compared to the other C:SM Chapters? So why didn't they? Is it fair that - SOLELY compared to the other C:SM chapters in the 7th Ed codex - they received less?

So, we're off topic then?

No, I don't think it's fair. I don't think many rational people would argue it is. This is where we start to border on the equality argument. I expected a playable dex for my red marines, but I sure as hell didn't get one. Pretty sure that there are thousands of dakka members GW hoses quarterly and I rarely ever see a thread about "fairness" because they didn't get the content they/we wanted.

And yea, we've been off topic for a good while now.

And I'll happily agree that Blood Angels (and Grey Knights) both kinda got screwed.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Even if there is a no refunds policy, he can use at least 4/5th of the books content. It's not exactly like the man got cheated. And no one's disputing that UM didn't get anything chapter specific. Pretty sure that was agreed upon on page 1. This is page 4 and now we're telling master of ordinance how to better run his guard not beating a dead horse.

OP may not have the models to use some of the new formations, units, and powers (no Librarians, no BaC - because let's face it, the only reason the Cataphractii stuff exist is because of BaC and nothing else - or all models are already in a formation).

If OP expected UM specific stuff and didn't get any UM specific stuff, then actually - yeah, they did get cheated. Hell, if I was planning on getting the book in the first place, and I found out that everyone else got bonuses EXCEPT the UM, I'd feel cheated.

We can agree that UM didn't receive equal stuff compared to the other C:SM Chapters? So why didn't they? Is it fair that - SOLELY compared to the other C:SM chapters in the 7th Ed codex - they received less?

So, we're off topic then?

No, I don't think it's fair. I don't think many rational people would argue it is. This is where we start to border on the equality argument. I expected a playable dex for my red marines, but I sure as hell didn't get one. Pretty sure that there are thousands of dakka members GW hoses quarterly and I rarely ever see a thread about "fairness" because they didn't get the content they/we wanted.

And I disagree with the bad treatment of certain codexes too. But I still maintain that I can still ask for stuff for a less unfortunate codex, even if someone has it worse. Saying I want X doesn't mean I don't want Y. Nor is it whinging - it's making a point. A valid point, as you said - "No, I don't think it's fair". Can I not think two things are unfair? Can I not want equality amongst ALL codexes, instead of just one?

As for the comment on other threads on "fairness", I only need to point at the BA and CSM players that flock to these threads to vent their (justified) anger about having bad codexes. There's enough comments about those codexes to make up several threads about it. This is the first (to my knowledge) thread about UM not having the same stuff in AoD. Hardly an unreasonable thing.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Even if there is a no refunds policy, he can use at least 4/5th of the books content. It's not exactly like the man got cheated. And no one's disputing that UM didn't get anything chapter specific. Pretty sure that was agreed upon on page 1. This is page 4 and now we're telling master of ordinance how to better run his guard not beating a dead horse.

OP may not have the models to use some of the new formations, units, and powers (no Librarians, no BaC - because let's face it, the only reason the Cataphractii stuff exist is because of BaC and nothing else - or all models are already in a formation).

If OP expected UM specific stuff and didn't get any UM specific stuff, then actually - yeah, they did get cheated. Hell, if I was planning on getting the book in the first place, and I found out that everyone else got bonuses EXCEPT the UM, I'd feel cheated.

We can agree that UM didn't receive equal stuff compared to the other C:SM Chapters? So why didn't they? Is it fair that - SOLELY compared to the other C:SM chapters in the 7th Ed codex - they received less?

So, we're off topic then?

No, I don't think it's fair. I don't think many rational people would argue it is. This is where we start to border on the equality argument. I expected a playable dex for my red marines, but I sure as hell didn't get one. Pretty sure that there are thousands of dakka members GW hoses quarterly and I rarely ever see a thread about "fairness" because they didn't get the content they/we wanted.

And I disagree with the bad treatment of certain codexes too. But I still maintain that I can still ask for stuff for a less unfortunate codex, even if someone has it worse. Saying I want X doesn't mean I don't want Y. Nor is it whinging - it's making a point. A valid point, as you said - "No, I don't think it's fair". Can I not think two things are unfair? Can I not want equality amongst ALL codexes, instead of just one?

As for the comment on other threads on "fairness", I only need to point at the BA and CSM players that flock to these threads to vent their (justified) anger about having bad codexes. There's enough comments about those codexes to make up several threads about it. This is the first (to my knowledge) thread about UM not having the same stuff in AoD. Hardly an unreasonable thing.

I think something is getting lost in translation. We agree on all points. All I'm really saying is that this thread was unnecessary. As in stating the obvious unnecessary. Hence why it went OT so quickly. I mean if the OP wanted to vent about a product that cheated him, he could always drop a few tongue -in-cheek comments into threads that are on the same or very similar topic like everyone else does.

Ultramarine players complaining about their options!? Baaahahahahaha! You guys crack me up!

 Kavish wrote:
Ultramarine players complaining about their options!? Baaahahahahaha! You guys crack me up!

they get literally half the options of every other codex space marine chapter out there. I think it's fair to say "that kinda sucks"

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Ultramarine players complaining about their options!? Baaahahahahaha! You guys crack me up!

they get literally half the options of every other codex space marine chapter out there. I think it's fair to say "that kinda sucks"

Please tell me you are joking.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Ultramarine players complaining about their options!? Baaahahahahaha! You guys crack me up!

they get literally half the options of every other codex space marine chapter out there. I think it's fair to say "that kinda sucks"

Please tell me you are joking.

nope, but I did somehow miss the word relics.
but yeah all UMs have going for em is special characters, and the only one I can see that's really all THAT standout is Tigeris.

BrianDavion wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Ultramarine players complaining about their options!? Baaahahahahaha! You guys crack me up!

they get literally half the options of every other codex space marine chapter out there. I think it's fair to say "that kinda sucks"

Please tell me you are joking.

nope, but I did somehow miss the word relics.
but yeah all UMs have going for em is special characters, and the only one I can see that's really all THAT standout is Tigeris.

As someone who owns and uses AoD pretty often, almost all the relics in the book are terrible. You really aren't missing anything there. Now I could definitely understand being frustrated by not getting your own decurion, but that's the only thing in the book (of substance ) that you're missing out on. UMs are the only chapter that can run 10th coy as a CAD. That's pretty huge as is the assortment of characters in the dex you guys get to choose from. Kantor is awesome, but I would definitely like the luxury of chosen which named characters I firld.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You can go that route with blob gayrd like 450 rending lasgun shots a turn? This hurts a lot actually.

Not really. That requires and investment of 185 points for the Infantry plus another 50 for a single ML 1 Primaris psyker, and given that you will want more than one bite at the cherry to have a chance of getting the rending power you will want him to be ML 2 costing another 25 points. And maybe a second psyker just to be sure, another 50 points.
So now we have a 310 point unit that, within 12" and assuming it passes its LD checks and the psykers get the right powers and they get them off, can put out 450 rending Lasgun shots.
Assuming your opponent lets it live long enough to make it to 12", after all it lacks the ability to take transports and is too large to take advantage of any cover and will be mown down by Bolters.
And assuming that your opponent does not just use a Precision Shot unit to kill the Officer.
Or the Psykers.

I really do not know why you Marine players seem to think that blobguard is a threat, in this age of powerhammer 40K it really is not.

Just because you can't pull it off, doesn't mean it's not a threat. The number of psykers you use is six. Or at minimum, four. It's not just about misfortune. It's about unit buffs hitting huge numbers of models on top of orders. If you have a perfect timing psyker, you can then use your order to get twin linked vs vehicles. Gladius is not known for psyker defense. This combo ends gladius shenanigans pretty quickly. Quit using overcosted Russ hulls and you'll have points for this.

"er and will be mown down by Bolters. "

Nothing gets mowed down by bolters, especially if it has a 4++ save. A full spread of 10 bolters in rapid fire range kills a massive six guardsmen in 5++ cover. The marines will NEVER win at that rate. This goes down to 4.5 guardsmen with a 4++ save. Do math. It works.

6 psykers? 6?!?!?!
Do you even know how many points worth of investment that is? Three hundred points. 300. In six models. Six ML one models. How the hell can you justify that?! Even four is 200 points woorth and really in all honesty gakky IG psykers are not worth that big an investment.
As for Russ hulls, well, where else am I supposed to turn too for my firepower? Lasguns are going to do diddly squat against most targets and have the awkward requirement of the firing model still being alive when they get within range. Sure, you can buff a blob with many psychic powers but by the time you have done so you have essentially invested 580 points into 250 bods, and you now have to keep them alive until they are within range.
Have fun with that one.

...I just realised why I hate Geokinesis.

Anyone play 5th ed. Warhammer?

Anyone remember High Magic with Assault of Stone? You know, that ridiculous spell that did an amazing amount of damage, was only available to the two best all-round armies in the game with some of the best casters in the game (High Elves and Lizardmen) and moved about terrain so could be used for dick moves...to the extent where TOs tended to houserule it to prevent that or deny that altogether?

That's exactly what Shifting Worldscape is.

It's 5th edition High Magic's Assault of Stone all over again.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You can go that route with blob gayrd like 450 rending lasgun shots a turn? This hurts a lot actually.

Not really. That requires and investment of 185 points for the Infantry plus another 50 for a single ML 1 Primaris psyker, and given that you will want more than one bite at the cherry to have a chance of getting the rending power you will want him to be ML 2 costing another 25 points. And maybe a second psyker just to be sure, another 50 points.
So now we have a 310 point unit that, within 12" and assuming it passes its LD checks and the psykers get the right powers and they get them off, can put out 450 rending Lasgun shots.
Assuming your opponent lets it live long enough to make it to 12", after all it lacks the ability to take transports and is too large to take advantage of any cover and will be mown down by Bolters.
And assuming that your opponent does not just use a Precision Shot unit to kill the Officer.
Or the Psykers.

I really do not know why you Marine players seem to think that blobguard is a threat, in this age of powerhammer 40K it really is not.

Just because you can't pull it off, doesn't mean it's not a threat. The number of psykers you use is six. Or at minimum, four. It's not just about misfortune. It's about unit buffs hitting huge numbers of models on top of orders. If you have a perfect timing psyker, you can then use your order to get twin linked vs vehicles. Gladius is not known for psyker defense. This combo ends gladius shenanigans pretty quickly. Quit using overcosted Russ hulls and you'll have points for this.

"er and will be mown down by Bolters. "

Nothing gets mowed down by bolters, especially if it has a 4++ save. A full spread of 10 bolters in rapid fire range kills a massive six guardsmen in 5++ cover. The marines will NEVER win at that rate. This goes down to 4.5 guardsmen with a 4++ save. Do math. It works.

6 psykers? 6?!?!?!
Do you even know how many points worth of investment that is? Three hundred points. 300. In six models. Six ML one models. How the hell can you justify that?! Even four is 200 points woorth and really in all honesty gakky IG psykers are not worth that big an investment.
As for Russ hulls, well, where else am I supposed to turn too for my firepower? Lasguns are going to do diddly squat against most targets and have the awkward requirement of the firing model still being alive when they get within range. Sure, you can buff a blob with many psychic powers but by the time you have done so you have essentially invested 580 points into 250 bods, and you now have to keep them alive until they are within range.
Have fun with that one.

You clearly haven't been paying attention. It's fine. Let's just drop it.

If you think Russ hulls have firepower, I don't know what to tell you. They are awful.

300pts isn't a lot to spend on Psykers.

- Psykana Division (8WC, Harnesses on 2+)
- Librarus Conclave w/ML2 (6WC, Harnesses on 2+)
- Cyclopia Cabal w/ML2 + Familiar (6WC, rerolls failed psychic tests)
- 2x Grey Knight Librarian, ML3, Domina Liber Daemonica (6WC, rerolls 1's on Sanctic)
- 2x ML3 Herald w/Paradox, Grimoire (6WC, Paradox)
- 2x Farseer, Jetbikes, Shard (6WC, perils manipulation)

Not quite sure what the problem is. Psychic Phase can win games. Even non-psychic armies will usually throw down 140pts for disruption using a Culexus.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Ultramarine players complaining about their options!? Baaahahahahaha! You guys crack me up!

they get literally half the options of every other codex space marine chapter out there. I think it's fair to say "that kinda sucks"

BLACK TEMPLARS.

Seriously, have you even read the damn thread you're responding in? If you want something that "kinda sucks" take everything the Ultramarines got and then remove the Psychic disciplines good enough that people worry that some of them might break the game. That's what Black Templars got.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Ultramarine players complaining about their options!? Baaahahahahaha! You guys crack me up!

they get literally half the options of every other codex space marine chapter out there. I think it's fair to say "that kinda sucks"

BLACK TEMPLARS.

Seriously, have you even read the damn thread you're responding in? If you want something that "kinda sucks" take everything the Ultramarines got and then remove the Psychic disciplines good enough that people worry that some of them might break the game. That's what Black Templars got.

yeah and I've been saying black templars deserve their own damn supplement since the news about the codex merger happened. black templars are especially screwed because the formations all assume a codex standard chapter, which the templars are NOT.

probably best if people dial it down a notch.

Thanks.

Out of everyone in Codex: Spess Mahreens its the Black Templar that got boned. Ultras have their special detachment in the base codex (Gladius). All space marines get new psychic powers which is a huge power boost for them (not that they needed it) so all the Astartes benefit from the new supplement....... except for the Black Templar who don't get a special detachment, still can't field crusader squads in any format outside of a CAD, still have the worst chapter tactics in the game, and their hatred of psykers means they don't benefit from the new psychic powers. The supplement gives Black Templar warlord trails (whoopty doo) and that's it. I am this salty over the treatment of the BT and I don't even play them.

Those Warlord Traits were already available from White Dwarf as well. Templars got Cataphractii and Contemptors. That's it.

Yoyoyo wrote:
300pts isn't a lot to spend on Psykers.

- Psykana Division (8WC, Harnesses on 2+)
- Librarus Conclave w/ML2 (6WC, Harnesses on 2+)
- Cyclopia Cabal w/ML2 + Familiar (6WC, rerolls failed psychic tests)
- 2x Grey Knight Librarian, ML3, Domina Liber Daemonica (6WC, rerolls 1's on Sanctic)
- 2x ML3 Herald w/Paradox, Grimoire (6WC, Paradox)
- 2x Farseer, Jetbikes, Shard (6WC, perils manipulation)

Not quite sure what the problem is. Psychic Phase can win games. Even non-psychic armies will usually throw down 140pts for disruption using a Culexus.

And out of those which ones are actually worth their points?

All of them.

 Vankraken wrote:
Out of everyone in Codex: Spess Mahreens its the Black Templar that got boned.

Agreed. BT lost out. As did UM. But BA have been boned more. If people call OP whiny for saying UM are disadvantaged, then why are BT not in the same position if BA are worst? Or, perhaps it's possible to think that multiple factions have been disadvantaged?

Ultras have their special detachment in the base codex (Gladius).

No. EVERY vanilla Chapter has the Gladius. It is not any more UM specific than it is to BT. BT can take the Gladius. IF, IH, WS, RG and everyone else has access to the Gladius AND their own unique formation. Not so for the BT and UM. So no - the Gladius is not the UM variant.

All space marines get new psychic powers which is a huge power boost for them (not that they needed it) so all the Astartes benefit from the new supplement....... except for the Black Templar who don't get a special detachment, still can't field crusader squads in any format outside of a CAD, still have the worst chapter tactics in the game, and their hatred of psykers means they don't benefit from the new psychic powers. The supplement gives Black Templar warlord trails (whoopty doo) and that's it. I am this salty over the treatment of the BT and I don't even play them.

Agreed on all fronts. The BT also lost out. The UM lost out too. As I said before, can I not think that MULTIPLE factions have lost out on stuff?
(Also, you forgot the oh-so valuable Cataphractii armour that the "UM are fine stop whinging" group are talking about. Shows how much they are valued.)

I'll also support the idea that BT should have their own supplement or codex, even more so than the BA, IMHO. I'm not saying how I feel about all marines being in a single codex (that's already a topic), but as far as I see, BT would deserve it lorewise far more than the BA.
So yes Van - I agree. BT lost out. So did the UM. So have the BA.

You can definitely find a better way to express your disagreement. Remember rule 1. motyak

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
A www diddums the tickle ultramarine player is unhappy wahhh wahhh wahhh your the poster boys if 40k deal with it

What a mature answer. Any challenges to what I've said?