The Space Wolves Start Collecting Pack is awesome for beginners. All you need additionally is a Drop Pod and another Thunderwolf and you get a decent force of 500 - 750 pts. I think it would work quite well against the other formations. I'd be interested seing them face Tau or Skitarii.
I think, competitively, the Tyranid one is best against other boxes. A flyrant is very hard for many armies to handle. It'll certainly crush the SM, CSM, Scions, SW, and more boxes. Skitarii has a chance with the Onager of it's AA though
of the getting started boxes the tyranids win hands down. nothing in the other boxes can match a hive tyrant. That said as a whole the tyranids are not a to p tier army and need come work so if this is some kind of league only using starter sets go for it, otherwise if it is to start a new army then the wolves or necrons would probably be a better choice.
note the only reason is no other box can deal with a T6 flying MC reliably
G00fySmiley wrote: of the getting started boxes the tyranids win hands down. nothing in the other boxes can match a hive tyrant. That said as a whole the tyranids are not a to p tier army and need come work so if this is some kind of league only using starter sets go for it, otherwise if it is to start a new army then the wolves or necrons would probably be a better choice.
note the only reason is no other box can deal with a T6 flying MC reliably
The only box that has a legitimate chance of wrecking a Flyrant is the Mechanicus thanks to the Onager and it's gunbattery of skyfire. Everything else though is probably just gonna get shot to pieces.
Just because of the range. On a big board 3 scat bikes with prescience which can assault back after shooting and a fire prism that has been guided is not too shabby.
It depends on the builds. Many units in these boxes can have a range of options. Is this "test" a set build vrs everyone, or can each box "tailor" to its opener? If it can, The admech is pretty strong. The AA walker can deal with a lot of stuff, the vanguard can pack up to 3 plasma and the dominus is no slouch. Plus if not facing a flier the walker neutron gun is quite strong. Tau may be a close match with its versatile suits - but they die to walker fire and plasma.
Frozocrone wrote: This is the biggest mismatch ever. SM can have two phases to fire off a Grav Cannon. CSM can add hatred onto their Plasma Guns.
Is that a footslogging Grav Cannon? Perhaps you could snipe it out with a blast weapon, like a Hebrute Plasma Cannon, or a template weapon like Burning Brand on the HQ.
Spiritfox22 wrote: The only box that has a legitimate chance of wrecking a Flyrant is the Mechanicus thanks to the Onager and it's gunbattery of skyfire. Everything else though is probably just gonna get shot to pieces.
Scions are sitting on a lot of twin-linking. And a LOT of Plasma.
There isn't a grav cannon in the SM starter set. I thought this was using only contents in the box. If so, then you also have to account for the number of certain weapons in the kits themselves. For example, SM only have one of each specialist weapon and a missile launcher. Scions will only have two plasma and melta, etc. I still feel the Tau one could be one of the best. It could be equipped to deal with both types of infantry and vehicles.
That's still a fair amount of proxying/converting.
'Big Bug' devourers are emphatically not the same weapon as 'Lil' Bug devourers'. You've got 1 pair to go at, I think, but the kit pretty much wants you to equip a pair of scything talons if you take the wings, because nothing else fits on the lower limbs. That's why forgeworld produce the double-dual piece for one arm.
A winged tyrant with one pair of brainleech devourers, a thorax swarm, and bug psyker powers is still scary as hell to face. As noted, the Onager and/or a properly equipped (velocity tracker/fireknife) battlesuit team are the only things likely to seriously inconvenience it.
Depends on the mission, too, though. If it's a maelstrom game, the hive tyrant has the classic problem of not being able to take objectives. By comparison, endlessly respawning scion squads (or similar) can quickly rack up a lot of points....
How about the Chaos Daemon ones? There's no accompanying formation, but they're just as useable in 40k. The skull cannon is quite a nasty asset in small games.
Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote: Lets say we can choose to use only box content, or upgrades as we like as long as the models can take it, but we state the choice beforehand.
This way we can all have a go at what we would prefer to contemplate.
While discussing conditions:
Normal games w/objectives?
Table size?
For example, a lot of times when talking about little ~500 point forces, you might just play on a 4x4 table. But the Eldar box can put a lot of highly mobile firepower at long range, on mobile platforms. They can leverage that a lot farther on a 4x6.
If you use only the contents of the box, would you not still be able to make a Dakka Flyrant? As in, the Warriors come with devourers, so you can easily convert 2 twin-linked sets for the tyrant.
In this case, the Tyranid box wins out against all the others, with a slight chance to be beaten by the Nurgle set (2+ cover everywhere) or the Tau box (sky fire Suits)
Well, the helbrute is hopelessly outmatched by the dread.
The helbrute can go crazy after loosing a hullpoint and if your lucky he can shoot twice, the SM dreadnought on the other hand can choose to fire twice whenever it wants to thanks to the formation bonus, with BS5 no less if you make it venerable. Unlike the brute, it also gets the stormbolter for free. So the dreadought is a better helbrute, including the brutes special rule. Luckily the helbrute can get rage....so It can match the dreadnoughts base 4 attacks on the charge. All for the same cost...
For the csm, I suppose there is some merit to taking a csm blob in this matchup. If you can afford one that is. A dreadclaw could work well too, but the same can be said for sm and cheaper. And the SM can combat squad too.
The chaos lord is ok, but good luck getting him anywhere. The captain just has to stand there and work his formation magic. The lord can't run and you'd need a dreadclaw to get him there. Deepstriking him alone is just gonna get him killed.
CSM are really on the short end of the stick here, but it's hard to compare without a points limit.
Deployment: Dawn of War, 4'x4'
Primary Mission: The Relic (Win - 12pts, Draw - 6pts, Loss - 0pts)
Secondary Mission: 2x Objectives (Win - 12pts, Draw - 6pts, Loss - 0pts)
Tertiary Mission: Warlord, 1st Blood, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Relic is centralized in a 12" courtyard surrounded by Ruins. 2x Objectives are in opposing deployment zones
Modifiers: Helbrute has 4A (as per "Roused to War" FAQ), all Formation Special rules are in use. Use the Draft FAQs!
Constraints: Box contents only (so no Grav Cannon), only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies
G00fySmiley wrote: of the getting started boxes the tyranids win hands down. nothing in the other boxes can match a hive tyrant. That said as a whole the tyranids are not a to p tier army and need come work so if this is some kind of league only using starter sets go for it, otherwise if it is to start a new army then the wolves or necrons would probably be a better choice.
note the only reason is no other box can deal with a T6 flying MC reliably
Skitarii can bring an Onager with Icarus Array. That shuts down a Flyrant pretty reliably in my experience.
Deployment: Dawn of War, 4'x4'
Primary Mission: The Relic (Win - 12pts, Draw - 6pts, Loss - 0pts)
Secondary Mission: 2x Objectives (Win - 12pts, Draw - 6pts, Loss - 0pts)
Tertiary Mission: Warlord, 1st Blood, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Relic is centralized in a 12" courtyard surrounded by Ruins. 2x Objectives are in opposing deployment zones. Moderate LOS screening
Modifiers: Helbrute has 4A (as per "Roused to War" FAQ), all Formation Special rules are in use. Use the Draft FAQs!
Constraints: Box contents only (so no Grav Cannon), only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades, Forgeworld may not be used
The SM Tactical Squad has the unique ability to Combat Squad. Half their team can control their backfield and plink away with their Missile Launcher, which is incidentally their only box option. The other half of the squad can advance on foot with a Special Weapon. Splitting the squad essentially guarantees winning the secondary mission (Objectives).
The CSM Squad cannot split up, and they can't win a long-range firefight, so they need to concentrate on the Relic primary and hope to draw the divided Tactical Marines into CC. They do get 2x Specials which is a little more appropriate for footslogging across the board (but only one of each kind). By far their best advantage is T5 through Mark of Nurgle, which will make anything under S7 much less effective.
The Chaos Lord can take Mark of Nurgle alongside his squad, which means he can't be doubled out by any weapon except the Dread PF. That's decisive because now he can take an offensive relic. Eye of Night = D3 Ignore Cover Pen hits on the Dread. Since it doesn't replace a weapon, the Lord can combine a LC and Chainfist for an extra attack.
The SM Captain risks getting doubled out at T4 by the CSM Lord. Without a Storm Shield to model Shield Eternal, the best Relic to counter this is Gorgon's Chain. Incidentally that determines Chapter Tactics for the SM force. The SM Captain recieves significantly better defense than the CSM Lord, but being limited by the starter set's offensive options, he can't pick up a LC to pair with his PF (stolen from the Tac Marine Sgt).
The SM force can leverage their Formation bonus against the Helbrute, which stands a very unlikely chance of surviving. However, the Ven Dread is completely outclassed by Eye of Night. Both vehicles are priority targets unlikely to last the game, but Eye of Night probably has the advantage in terms of Alpha Striking and First Blood.
CSM already recieve Hatred through VotLW, meaning their Formation bonus is most likely, completely redundant. But if CSM scores First Blood, SM will have to contest the Relic, and it's very likely this game will be decided by CC.
CSM (Black Legion) - 637pts
Terminator Lord (262pts) : Eye of Night, Mark of Nurgle, Chainfist/LC, Sigil, VotLW CSM Squad (240pts) : Mark of Nurgle, Meltagun/Plasmagun, Combi-Weapon, Power Fist, VotLW Helbrute (135pts) : TL-Lascannon, Power Scourge
- Primary : Advantage to CSM (+12)
- Secondary : Advantage to SM (+12)
- Tertiary : Warlord to both (+2 each), First Blood to CSM (+2) Linebreaker to CSM (+2)
Final score: 18 to CSM, 14 to SM.
Projected CSM victory -- CSM advances to Round #2!!
Sum up: It's the Eye of Night and Mark of Nurgle which tip this towards CSM. Without Eye of Night, it would be almost impossible for CSM to disable the Venerable Dread, which would neutralize their CC advantage completely. Luckily, Black Legion has the perfect counter and we aren't balancing with points.
Begin stating your reasons to appeal the decision now!
Shouldn't the starter box formation also be taken into account in these? Since we are using only what is in the box they automatically qualify for the formation bonus. I know that some of them are not very good, but others can be pretty effective.
In the first turn, it's not difficult to negate the SM Firespear bonus. Stay out of LOS to deny clear fire lines.
In turns 2-3, the SM bonus is going to become very important in destroying the Helbrute. The CSM Lord can tank any incoming missiles on a 2+.
When the SM squad does make contact contesting the Relic, they can do some serious damage by firing everything within RF range (4-5x dead CSM). However, there's a very good chance they'll be charged in the next turn. With T5, Hatred, and +1A from charging, and the CSM Lord having both a LC and I5, it's not looking great!
SM needs the Ven Dread to support their weaker CC ability, but Eye of Night could not be a more perfect counter. The Helbrute Lascannon is insurance to help finish the job.
It's still a dice game, but I think CSM has better tools for this particular mission.
Well, if you get to match your equipment before every match against a known opponent, I doubt any of them can compete with the Tau kit.
The crisis suits are just too versatile, and the kit builds an actual army (ethreal hq, 2x5 FW, 3x1 battlesuit, assortment of drones to scatter around.)
You got a tank/walker? dual fusion suits. you got a flyrant? missile/plasma/VT suits. you got a horde (daemons), burst/missile suit dwindle you down while keeping distance. you got a hidden HQ that causes other units to rez? DS to where he's hidden with plasma/melta to take him out.
Deployment - Dawn of War
Primary - Invasion (12pts), most units in enemy board half wins
Secondary - Objectives (12pts), 5x objectives -- 2x in each deployment zone, 1x in middle
Tertiary - First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Moderate LOS Screening
Modifiers: Formation Special rules are in use, use the Draft FAQs!
Constraints: Box contents only, only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades, Forgeworld benefits not be used.
According to the formation rules, Tau can only field 3x units to remain legal. That's going to prevent Tau from splitting up into MSU. They need to kill the Stalker, but losing the 3-man Crisis Suit unit will make it almost impossible to have enough board control to win the Primary/Secondary. Drop Melta is a double edged sword.
Necrons have less customization to effectively tailor (the Overlord is a notable exception), but they're simply a strong army. Their formation bonus is going to be amazing as they can just be ultra-aggressive in small games.
Round #1 Matchup #2: Tau versus Necron
Ethereal Honor Guard (Swift Redeployment - reposition one unit within 12" of Ethereal in movement phase)
- 1x Ethereal
- 1x Strike team
- 1x Crisis Suit team
Retribution Phalanx (within 3" of Overlord, may replace eliminated Warrior and Scarab units)
- 1x Overlord
- 1x Warriors
- 1x Scarabs
- 1x Triarch Stalker
Seems like a great matchup, not sure who takes it honestly! Any Tau/Necron players able to sound in?
This makes no sense. If you want to test the value of the starter sets then forcing them to use an option they don't have to (like the formation) is no true value comparison.
In tau's case, the formation is holding the starter back. You might want to "see the special rules in action" but the tau formation rule are so pointless even the chaos formation seems better. Heck, forget CAD benefits, even unbound is better than the formation if only to split up the suits.
So in yoyoyo's scenario it seems pretty equal, unless anyone has anything else to say. As he stated his conditions beforehand, those are the parameters he is using. Good scenario, how would you deploy if you guys were playing like this?
Boomwolf has a suggestion to not use the formation, and i think he would be allowed to not use it if he feels like it.
I am not familiar with the necrons, but I would say the Tau primary objective is to eliminate the Overlord. Once he is dead, the warriors and scarabs will not come back. Then I would assume they would focus the crisis on the Stalker or scarabs so to keep them out of the firewarrior line. But I cannot say how it would go.
Of course if points is no consideration, then I would be maxing out the crisis suits and firewarriors with any options I could.
Hawehu, I'd recommend sticking to the Formations if possible. Deciding if the Tau bonus has any useful applications is exactly the kind of thing we want to learn.
Necron Scarabs are fast enough to function as either a rush unit and DS defense. Tau can counter this with H&R on the Crisis Suits (at I4). Ethereal-boosted Overwatch on the FW team is an effective defense at 100% squad strength, though one Scarab base will make CC. The Scarabs are unlikely to be decisive, they might remove a Tau shooting phase depending on dice rolls. Statistically it's not in their favor.
The Stalker's +1BS buff can only be applied to the Warriors, who don't possess terribly impressive shooting in this match. The Stalker's 24" weaponry is intimidating enough to force a defensive deployment, but after losing Quantum Shielding, even the FW team can destroy it with glances and their S7 turret. Crisis Suit weapons targeting the AV11 rear will be almost impossible to defend against.
The Warriors themselves have no special tricks and are outranged by the Fire Warriors. Tau naturally want to remove the majority of the squad as they advance, then burst down the remaining Warriors and Overlord in a single turn with Markerlights.
The Overlord is the only unit Necrons can customize. With boosted defense, a 2+ Overlord can probably avoid getting killed -- for at least as long as his Res Orb lasts. Alternatively, Deepstriking the Warrior unit into the Tau backfield (Veil of Darkness) can neutralize Tau's range advantage and plays better to the mission. If the Tau can be pinned in their deployment zone, it will probably guarantee a win.
Given passable DS on both sides, what determines this game is if Tau can escape. So can they outrun the Overlord? Considering a 10-man FW unit can span something like 20" laterally -- even more with the drones and Ethereal -- it's almost guaranteed they can get out of charge range. In fact by deploying shield drones against the Stalker, they can even deploy aggressively and try to get into the Necron deployment area by turn 2-3.
Necron Retribution Phalanx (515pts)
- Overlord (200pts) - Veil of Darkness, Warscthye, Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Res Orb
- 10x Warriors (130pts)
- 3x Cantopek Scarabs (60pts)
- Triarch Stalker (125pts) - Heat Ray
Primary: No advantage (+6 each)
Secondary: No advantage (+6 each)
Tertiary: Warlord nil, First Blood to Tau (+2), Linebreaker to both (+2)
Final Score: Tau 16, Necrons 14
Projected Tau Victory -- Tau advances to Round #2!!
I'm surprised. But I'm actually giving this one to the Tau. Their formation bonus is much, much more useful than I expected. Being able to essentially teleport across their deployment zone? Win. Crisis Suits are incredibly customizable, and that makes a huge difference in a tailored match where having very little ability to customize a unit hurts the Necrons. Despite that, it's certainly no blowout -- a single Scarab base would tilt the outcome dramatically. Too bad there's only three in the box!
I don't know if Tau have any answer against DS without the Formation. If Necrons can DS within 12", they will remove 5-6 models and there's no way Tau can burst down that entire unit in one turn against a Res Orb.
That's without taking the Scarabs and the Stalker into account. You might actually need 2x Target Locks on the Crisis Suits as insurance to support the FW team. If the FW lose a 4-5 models to DS, there's a good chance that full-strength Scarabs can lock them and prevent redeployment. That's definitely a fatal scenario.
X3 single suits with fusion/missiles/stims dancing around, or DSing depending in terrain, first priority to eliminate stalker and if he's own start gunning for the overlord.
FW team 1 with 5 members, ui upgrade with marker upgrade, missile turret and two marker drones stand WAY back with the ethereal. Emp for fun.
FW team 2 same just without drones/turret take a midfield position to bubble team 1.
6 gun drone team create further bubble and harras.
Tau claim primary by raw unmatched unit count, no clear advantage either way otherwise.
Neither, probably. Necrons can kill anything they catch but they're too slow to eliminate the entire Tau force.
Scarabs can kill a FNP suit in 4-5 rounds of combat, but if they lose a base in Overwatch (42% chance) they'll be stuck for 3 game turns and probably lose combat. It's very unlikely they'll kill 2 in one game.
Warriors within 12" will kill about 4-5 models, add the Overlord's Flamer to make it an even 6. But Tau are going to decimate them after Deep Strike, so they'll probably only fire once at full strength. With a Res Orb they'll lose something like 5x models.
The Overlord can probably kill about 5x models every time he fires his Flamer and charges, so he's got the backfield covered. He's too slow to catch the Crisis Suits. Except with a Tachyon Arrow I guess. The Stalker can really hurt the Tau backfield, but with a 6" move it might not be able to get LOS on Crisis Suits.
The Overlord will probably be hiding in combat from turn 3-5, and once the main Tau army is gone the Crisis Suits probably can't kill him. Without Markerlight support, three suits with missiles and fusion only manage about 1.25W on the Overlord due to his 4++, and he's going to regenerate wounds with IWND.
So, I don't think either player can be tabled unless they suffer some bad dice or a tactical mistake. So as long as both have 3 units by the end, it's going to come down to First Blood.
So far, it's CSM and Tau going into Round 2. I've added BA to the competition, we'll add DA if they also get a release.
R1 Match #3: Space Wolves vs. Khorne Daemons
R1 Match #4: Imperial Guard vs. Eldar
R1 Match #5: Blood Angels vs. Dark Eldar
R1 Match #6: Scions vs. Nurgle Daemons
R1 Match #7: Skitarii vs. Orks
Tyranids -- 1st round bye
Next matchup: Space Wolves vs. Khorne Daemons (KDK Codex)
===========
Scenario #2 (No Quarter)
Deployment - Hammer and Anvil
Primary - Objective Control (12pts)
Secondary - Units 100% destroyed (12pts)
Tertiary - First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Sparse LOS Screening, 6x Objectives
Modifiers: Formation special rules are mandatory if available, use the Draft FAQs.
Constraints: Box contents only, only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades, Forgeworld benefits not be used.
Most people do not consider unbound to be a thing. myself included.
However if you wish to use unbound, the wolves would crush the khorne boys.
The run+shoot formation ability will mean that the bloodletters are unlikely to ever pull off a charge on them, while the blood crushers will be crushed by TH/SS thunderwolves. the blood throne will likely challenge them, but I doubt it could defeat them without some serious luck. and the formation even assure the thunderwolves will be the ones making the charge, not the khorne boys.
Also, if you make the wolf lord's armor "runic", the KDK have no AP2 available to punch it out even if they can reach CC.
the khorne box has nice $ value, but its rather weak on the field. even with every possible upgrade it only hits 530 points, and that's with the fact crushers are heavily overpriced to begin with.
If you split the throne to a herald and a cannon you hit 580 points with overstacked upgrades. not sure it even helps though.
The cannon can be used to force the wolves to enter your defensive zone, at least bolter range to thin out the letters before sending the riders, but then what?
And while the cannon can do some damage-you still don't have an answer to runic armor other than pile on attacks (that you can't, as the letters won't reach the hunters due to formation), and the crushers can't beat the thunderwolves, the cannon can't ID them and the letters cant reach them unless they already charged someone nearby.
Wolves win, no doubt. the khorne kit is just not up to par. and given that wolves have no tanks, that was one of their BETTER match ups.
Space Wolves do have a few weaknesses the Khorne Daemons can exploit.
1) The Wolf Lord lacks mobility and Eternal Warrior. There's a 17% chance to fail a 2+ save, at which point the Skull Cannon will cause Instant Death.
2) Grey Hunters have no weapons that can counter the Skull Cannon from outside 12", other than 24" Plasma. They're also going to take heavy casualties in CC against army-wide AP3 melee.
3) Each TWC model can equip a Storm Shield, but they're vulnerable to wound spam and can't challenge out characters. Countercharging can be effective for Daemons. The Herald w/Familiar and 10x Bloodletters will deal 5.98 unsaved wounds to the TWC, if stacking both Rage and Hatred.
4) Daemons can possess a numerical unit advantage and the ability to summon through Blood Tithe, which plays well to objective control.
5) Charge distances are greater, but also less predictable for SW (run move + 2D6, versus 6"+D6 for Banner of Blood).
The best way for Daemons to approach this matchup would be: soften up the TWC with the Skull Cannon, catch the TWC charge with the Bloodcrushers, countercharge with the Herald and Bloodletters. If they can remove the TWC without spending Blood Tithe, it's possible they'll be up to as many as 6pts at this time (+3 from characters/challenges, +2 from dead units, +1 from Herald's weapon). From there, the outlook for Daemons improves. Too bad they can't summon a Bloodthirster without a non-Daemon character!
The point is, Space Wolves can't simply push TWC directly into the Bloodcrushers and ensure a win. In the best case scenario, Khorne trades everything to leave only the Wolf Lord and 2x Skull Cannons on the board, which then attempt to slip past the 2+ save. Space Wolves can alternatively make a slower and more cohesive push, in order to try and bring their ranged firepower into play with their Grey Hunters. This is probably the better plan as it helps run out the clock. It would usually take about 4-5x Skull Cannon hits, or a full-strength Bloodletter/Herald squad pulling off a successful charge to kill the Wolf Lord. A less aggressive game will make generating enough Blood Tithe in time difficult.
Space Wolves Death Pack - 680pts - Wolf Lord (185pts) Runic Armor, LC/PF, Helm of Durfast, MB, Digital Weapons
- 10x Grey Hunters (240pts) - Pack Leader, Wolf Claw, Combi-Plasma, MB, 2x Plasma, Wolf Standard
- 3x TWC (255pts) - 2x SS/TH, 1x SS/PF, MB
Primary: Advantage to Khorne Daemons (12pts)
Secondary: Advantage to Space Wolves (12pts)
Tertiary: First Blood to Space Wolves (+2pts), Warlord to Space Wolves (+2pts), Linebreaker to Space Wolves (+2pts)
Final Score - Space Wolves 18, Khorne Daemons 12
Projected Space Wolves victory -- Space Wolves advance to round 2!!
Summary: It's not an unwinnable match for Khorne Daemons. Summoned units can potentially turn the game upside down. But they're at a disadvantage in a tiebreaker due to their relatively fragile units and inability to score First Blood. Space Wolves simply have to manage the game's pacing in order to reduce the accumulation of Blood Tithe, and they'll most likely walk off with a victory,
Can't be built as an executioner, punisher or demolisher, due to it being the wrong kit (battle tank, not siege tank / demolisher kit)
so no gets hots on the main gun
the guardsmen either take a heavy weapon, and risk losing 1/5 of a squad to a single Scatterlaser shot shot, or don't and lose their firepower
the commissar takes a camo-cloak, sits near the LR for a boosted cover save (preferably a stock BT with LC for the AP3 for forcing jetbike jinks, or the shot at the prism with both guns
sponsons would seem to be wasted in this match-up with that loadout, except maybe HBs for additional S5 shots at bikes
Guard are severely lacking in mobility in this pairing, so they'd be forced to go for the table.
though that's just, like, my opinion, man
We don't know the eldar formation yet, but without it the guard has the edge here. LRBT is not easy prey, and dominated the field with the battle cannon, forcing the eldar into hiding and jinking.
Might as well pack sponsons, not like we are counting points. A good roll may drop an extra windrider early, giving the tank free time to bombard the prisem.
Overall, very poor match for eldar. They would probably wipe marine sets, but they lack the tools to deal with heavy tanks, and the prisem don't have his desired target. He excels at anti meq, but the IG has cover saves, not armor.
I would give it to the IG after a long fight. The Eldar don't have a way to deal with the Russ effectively, while a battlecannon will mess up everything they have
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: I would give it to the IG after a long fight. The Eldar don't have a way to deal with the Russ effectively, while a battlecannon will mess up everything they have
I don't get this. How can the Battle Cannon fire snap-shots? Isn't it a blast? My point, of course being that the Prism Cannon has str9 lance AP1, so the Russ will probably be shaken or stunned, if not outright blown up. The Farseer can also have a str9 Spear and can easily get into side or rear armour, although this depend entirely on LoS blocking terrain.
In the end it really depends on who goes first. The Eldar have the movement to hide turn 1 and still be able to pop the Russ.
The Russ that comes in the set can still make 4 variants. It can make the normal battle cannon, the armourbane cannon, the twin linked autocannon, and the nova cannon versions. Two of those four have a blast weapon for the main turret. The other two do not. Fire Prism's highest AV is 12. Virtually any of the four has a chance at at least glancing. Personally, I would probably equip the autocannon or the armourbane versions. Either one can deal with the bikes and still fire snapshots should the need arise.
It comes down to whether it's objectives or kill points
Objectives, the eldar would probably win due to manoeuvrability, but kill points / outright tabling would go to the guard, not allowing for psychic powers.
scat bikes do have the potential (certainty?) to remove the russ though, if the guard player is careless with their gaming and concentrates on the prism, as it's S6 Vs. AV10, which would collapse under weight of firepower and near-neuter the guard
Here's the mission details, thanks to everyone for all your opinions and feedback.
R1 Matchup #4: Imperial Guard (AM) versus Eldar
AM units: As per Armored Shield formation
Eldar units: As per Eldar Runeweaver formation
Scenario #1 (Harvest of War)
Deployment - Dawn of War
Primary - Relic (12pts)
Secondary - Objective Control (12pts)
Tertiary - First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Moderate LOS Screening, 2x Objectives
Modifiers: Formation special rules are mandatory if available, use the Draft FAQs.
Constraints: Box contents only, only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades (ie. 3x max on vehicles), Forgeworld benefits not be used.
I think the LR Exterminator is the best variant to field here for AM. Given a 4+ cover save with Camo it doesn't need much support, and as its main gun is twin-linked it won't suffer as badly in the event of a pen hit.
Given that the board is 4' X 4', that both forces are relatively fragile with considerable firepower, tabling is a very real possibility. The initial tank engagement is going to shape the outcome. With twinlinking, Doom, and full BS, the Prism has a 33% chance of scoring a pen hit through a 4+ cover save. With 2x Multimeltas, an Exterminator Autocannon and a Lascannon, the LR has a 72% chance to pen AV12 with a 5++, dropping to about 50% against Jink or a 5++ with Fortune. It will also scrub off HP faster. Keep in mind the Fire Prism is almost 12" long, it's a big unit to hide. I think Guard has the overall advantage in the tank battle, even with psychic support. Eldritch Storm might peel off a HP with Haywire but it's unlikely to Pen, doesn't Ignore Cover and eats a lot of WC. The Farseer can reduce cost with Spirit Stones but there's still only so many WC dice to go around, and as always, Psychic Powers are random.
The Jetbike pack is swimming in ways to remove the AM Infantry Squad, but they can't afford to lose models. Eldar simply doesn't have enough depth throughout their army. As soon as they're targeted by the LR, Scatterbike damage will drop precipitously and AM can push the infantry squad into contact. I don't think a Farseer and 3x Bikes (soon to be less) can handle the combined firepower of the entire AM force -- within 24" they'll start to risk losing models to Lasguns, and they can't stay on the Relic if they're outgunned. Guard simply has to preserve their infantry as best possible, remove the Prism and they gain a decisive advantage. Eldar needs to remove the LR and mop up the remaining units, but their first step towards victory is going to be a little more difficult. Definitely not impossible.
There's a few items Eldar can use to cover off their weaknesses (Spirit Stones will preserve to Prism's shooting), but nothing that's obviously decisive. I'm not 100% sure of the AM Commissar's loadout (is it legal to upgrade to a LC?) but nonetheless I don't see it making a major difference. Force compositions:
AM (340pts) - Armored Shield Formation Commissar (55pts) - Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol
Infantry Squad (95pts) - Power Weapon, Boltgun, Lascannon, Krak Grenades
LR Exterminator (190pts) - Lascannon, 2x MM, Cam Net, Dozer Blade, Extra Armor
Primary: Advantage to AM (+12)
Secondary: No advantage (+6 each)
Tertiary: First Blood to AM (+2), Warlord to Eldar (+2), Linebreaker to both (+2)
Final Score - AM 16, Eldar 10
Projected Imperial Guard victory -- AM advances to round 2!!
AV14 is banned in most Combat Patrol missions for a reason, it definitely showed its value in this matchup. I think Eldar would take some of their matches, but without much AT options, the LR is difficult to overcome. Not a typical outcome in 40k -- cheers to the Guard for defying our usual expectations in this one!
Yoyoyo wrote: Here's the mission details, thanks to everyone for all your opinions and feedback.
R1 Matchup #4: Imperial Guard (AM) versus Eldar
AM units: As per Armored Shield formation
Eldar units: As per Eldar Runeweaver formation
Scenario #1 (Harvest of War)
Deployment - Dawn of War
Primary - Relic (12pts)
Secondary - Objective Control (12pts)
Tertiary - First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Moderate LOS Screening, 2x Objectives
Modifiers: Formation special rules are mandatory if available, use the Draft FAQs.
Constraints: Box contents only, only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades (ie. 3x max on vehicles), Forgeworld benefits not be used.
I think the LR Exterminator is the best variant to field here for AM. Given a 4+ cover save with Camo it doesn't need much support, and as its main gun is twin-linked it won't suffer as badly in the event of a pen hit.
Given that the board is 4' X 4', that both forces are relatively fragile with considerable firepower, tabling is a very real possibility. The initial tank engagement is going to shape the outcome. With twinlinking, Doom, and full BS, the Prism has a 33% chance of scoring a pen hit through a 4+ cover save. With 2x Multimeltas, an Exterminator Autocannon and a Lascannon, the LR has a 72% chance to pen AV12 with a 5++, dropping to about 50% against Jink or a 5++ with Fortune. It will also scrub off HP faster. Keep in mind the Fire Prism is almost 12" long, it's a big unit to hide. I think Guard has the overall advantage in the tank battle, even with psychic support. Eldritch Storm might peel off a HP with Haywire but it's unlikely to Pen, doesn't Ignore Cover and eats a lot of WC. The Farseer can reduce cost with Spirit Stones but there's still only so many WC dice to go around, and as always, Psychic Powers are random.
The Jetbike pack is swimming in ways to remove the AM Infantry Squad, but they can't afford to lose models. Eldar simply doesn't have enough depth throughout their army. As soon as they're targeted by the LR, Scatterbike damage will drop precipitously and AM can push the infantry squad into contact. I don't think a Farseer and 3x Bikes (soon to be less) can handle the combined firepower of the entire AM force -- within 24" they'll start to risk losing models to Lasguns, and they can't stay on the Relic if they're outgunned. Guard simply has to preserve their infantry as best possible, remove the Prism and they gain a decisive advantage. Eldar needs to remove the LR and mop up the remaining units, but their first step towards victory is going to be a little more difficult. Definitely not impossible.
There's a few items Eldar can use to cover off their weaknesses (Spirit Stones will preserve to Prism's shooting), but nothing that's obviously decisive. I'm not 100% sure of the AM Commissar's loadout (is it legal to upgrade to a LC?) but nonetheless I don't see it making a major difference. Force compositions:
AM (340pts) - Armored Shield Formation Commissar (55pts) - Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol
Infantry Squad (95pts) - Power Weapon, Boltgun, Lascannon, Krak Grenades
LR Exterminator (190pts) - Lascannon, 2x MM, Cam Net, Dozer Blade, Extra Armor
Primary: Advantage to AM (+12)
Secondary: No advantage (+6 each)
Tertiary: First Blood to AM (+2), Warlord to Eldar (+2), Linebreaker to both (+2)
Final Score - AM 16, Eldar 10
Projected Imperial Guard victory -- AM advances to round 2!!
AV14 is banned in most Combat Patrol missions for a reason, it definitely showed its value in this matchup. I think Eldar would take some of their matches, but without much AT options, the LR is difficult to overcome. Not a typical outcome in 40k -- cheers to the Guard for defying our usual expectations in this one!
You got it totally wrong on multiple angles, almost looks like you're being biased because you're not considering what an eldar general would do in this scenario:
1) Runes of fate are sub-par in this scenario. The enemy has guaranteed cover and high AV but has a severe lack of mobility. This makes it clear that you must take another discipline. IMO telepathy is the best opinion (Shriek ignores both armor and cover and on everage of 11/12 you cause 2-3 wounds) but Divination could potentially wreck the AM. Should you get the "optimal" combo (shrouding and invisibility or perfect timing and misfortune) then the AM is done for. I'm going to assume that, right after pooling three shots, though, we only got one of the two good powers in both disciplines.
2) You've not exactly considered the damage taken by AM in turn 1 should eldar get the first turn. e. A full squad of the bikes, without any bonuses, could easily cause almost 7 wounds and kill 3 guardsman (regardless of number of wounds. 3 rounds of fire is more than sufficient to kill them all, they won't get the relic. And that's when not taking into account ANY modifiers
3) You underestimated eldar mobility and the oportunities it can give
4) You got the concept of the AM squad wrong: they simply cannot get to the relic. Doing so simply will make the LC snap-fire and thus be almost useless. This forces them to either be stationary or have neglegible firing power.
5) the fire prism can be easily hidden, you just need the corner of a building or use a GW one (administratum basilica, aquila's temple, sanctum imperialis do the job perfectly, I know it from experience)
Now, let's go case by case. This scenarios are assuming the eldar player get 1st turn (which can happen, it also cannot happen but I don't want to cover those scenarios)
Case A (got perfect timing)
The eldar player deployed his forces so as to everyone would get LoS with the squad. Also the squad is within 4-6'' of the front armor and is deployed in a double 5-man long line so as to try and maximize covering, but not lose it should the enemy start firing and whitling them.
Turn 1
In this scenario the guard squad is shanked. With at least 4 WCs (average 6) and only having to use two WC 1 (stones of Anathlan down cost to 1) the farseer easily gets the power. Note that the re-roll, if need be, should go to perfect timing, since it provides the biggest increase in damage. Averageing 10.7 hits (let's say 10) we will get 8.33 wounds (9.16 if we wanted to say we got 11 hits) which are translated into roughly 6 dead guardsmen. Blessed be flakk!
Now, here is at this point that the eldar would have score first blood. Should the prism ignore the russ and fire first into the squad (and assuming we get 7 hits with the big pieplate) we can get 3 kills with the cannon and maybe 1 with the shuriken cannon (2.7 hits, 2.24 wounds). The prism must fire first so as to reduce the model count to 6 because the bikes will cause ID regardless of number of wounds.
First blood and slay the warlord go to eldar.
Eldar make an assault move (6'' this time) and hide behind LoS. The leman russ has only one target. One MM fails, so does an AC shot (if I don't say it wrong it's TL but 1.5 stays even between 1 and 2 so will go for this once) and the LC hits. Obviously the prism will jink. We get 0.5 glances/from the MM, 0.33 from the AC and 0.6667 from the LC. That is 0.33 pens, 0.16667 pens and 0.5 pens. That is that we statitically can get a pen. We assume a pen (shaken) that we don't manage to ignore with the stones. Yes, the LR has great weapons but half of the time the important ones will miss. this is huge for the eldar.
Turn 2.
The prism moves to get the side arc and shoots, failing miserably.
The jetbikes forgo their shooting attack and decide to turbo boost... right behind the russ. Now the guard player has the noose set to strangle him. If he doesn't turn back, he will suffer 5.5 damage with ignore's cover. If he does, he will, with a certainity suffer a HP or two loss. It's impossible for him to wipe out the enemy unit: 5 shots means 2.5 hits (let's say the AC hits twice and the LC fails) The bikes are jinking (which diminishes their output but it doesn't fully nulify it with the seer's powers. The guard commander is forced to turn back and force them two jink. All his weapons manage to score wounds but they only suffer one casualty from the melta (0.666 from AC and 0.5 from melta). If we did get foreboding then our firepower remains unchanged because we will have been taking invulnerable saves
Turn 3. The jetbikes, thanks to the seer's ld10, don't run away, and the boss decides to detach himself from the unit so as to grant TL to the prism, whom has positionated himself at cruising speed at gotten to the rear arc, the bikes do so too. We get both powers (either perfect timing+prescience or just prescience if we roled for foreboding). Worst case scenario we get 2.4 hits which strip off a HP whereas the prism gets a hit on the cannon (over 90% hit chance) and strips off a HP while its shuriken cannon finishes the tank.. or we just charge with the farseer and hope his 3 attacks (1 base, 2xCCWs and charge) with a 90% hit chance net us a 7 or more on its 2d6 pen roll. That would require being a bit unlucky If we got foreboding the bikes do the job quickly.
Guard is wiped out, victory goes for eldar and their superior mobility.
Now, the guard could have chosen to deploy in a congaline but that could have been used in the eldar favor: just get the bikes and prism to the side, kill a couple models with the bikes and shot the russ. A 50% chance to pen means it's highly likely to be not usable for a turn, thus further benefiting the eldar. That or that the guard player was slightly (like 1 or 2 failed saves above average).
Case B (got misfortune)
Here's a bit trickier and long winded but relies a lot less in who got 1st turn. Basically we ought to pound first the guard squads (averaging 4 dead per turn from the jetbikes and maybe a few more with the prism cannon all while keeping away from the MMs). The prism is totally prescindible but will be useful to deflect fire and chip off wounds.
By turn 3 we ought to have slaughtered the guardsmen and lost the prism (whom fired once at the guardsmen and the second on the russ, resulting in a glance or failure). We just need the windriders to get to the side and relatively close to LoS blocking terrain. On average it will result in almost two HPs and the death of the russ in 2 turns, whom will not be able to shoot the hidden models. if you feel ballsy/ suicidal you can charge too and with the 3 farseer attacks hitting getting a glance and at least one of the 6 windriders attacks resulting in a glance (thanks to misfortune and prescience)
Victory goes to eldar. Guard wiped out.
Case C (both misfortune and perfect timing)
A mixture of the two cases above and is the safest of the three, since it allows your bikes to get out of MM range and thus reduce the enemy firepower on them by a 40% (and thus remove the need to jink). It's death by a thousand cuts at its finest.
Eldar wins.
Case D (got shrouding)
The gist here is to do about the same as we'd do in case A but with a few modifications: first we get into an 18'' range of the squad. Then we cast shrouding to ensure we get it and we cast shriek on the squad. With a lucky roll (let's say, 13) we can kill 4 guardsmen and in the very best case scenario we could virtually wipe out everyone (everyone barring the commissar and maybe the lucky HWT but the latter would have a wound). We get 3 guardsmen in one volley of psichic might. Pop up the shooting phase and the prism fires into the guardsmen as does everyone else. At an average of 3 dead from the prism (4 wounds from cannon and 2 from shuriken) we can ALMOST wipe out the enemy in a single turn.
Our bikes jink and get a beefy 2+ cover save from the russ whom cannot allow them to get to its back since they closed greatly the distance with their assault moves.
Turn 2 finish the guard squad with shriek or the prism guns if need be.
Case E (got invisilibty)
On turn 1 repeat case D but with a variation out of 2: charge the bikes (you'll only be hit on 6s and then be wounded on 5s while you're attacking first) to ensure the extermination of the guardsmen (you'll get roughly two wounds from the guardsmen so it should be enough or at least get them tied with you for a round and avoid the enemy shooting) or place them behind the russ to force it into an uncomfortable angle between you and the prism's nasty cannon.
Case F (got shrouding and invisibiity)
This is the case of: feth this gak, I'm out of here. Forget about damaging your oponents and go for the relic. Cast both invisibility and shrouding on the bikes and then run like hell. If you get 1st turn then go nuts and use the prism to tank shock and disrupt the enemy line: crusing speed and flat-out so as to either block line of sight or tank shock the guard (if you, like a few LGS do, allow tank shocking with flat-out) which you MUST do starting on turn 2. The guard player will try in vain to kill your units whom ought to be safe starting from turn 3 and be able to shoot regularly (I'm assuming there's ruins within 12'') as they have no way to kill your models since they hit on 6s and can only kill on 1s to save. If your warlord got the trait that allows re-rolls of 1 when saving then say good bye to victory.
While they may get line breaker and first blood we are assured to win or force a tie if we go this route.
We could, of course, give those bonuses to the prism (though he'd only get a 3+ cover save-5++ from hiding behind terrain plus 2 from shrouding) thus ensuring the enemy cannot do crap to it while we pound the everliving gak of the squad via the old jump shoot jump manneuver. Turn 3: get the bikes behind and give them those bonuses to them. Enjoy the enemy's desperation as he cannot kill things fast enough as to avoid getting blown to kingdom come. Either by shooting or even assault with the spear as a last ditch effort.
Either way, eldar are most likely to win in the first variation and almost assured to win in the second (again via being wiped out).
In most cases the guard lose because the eldar can kill their guys extremely fast. and get to their weak point wihout massive issues). Guard NEEDS getting the initiative if they want to have hopes of victory (in which case they DO have a chance... if the enemy cannot hide all the models for turn 1). And hidding the models doesn't work for guard since eldar just can play that game: run the bikes into the relic, grab it, and then turbo-boosting to get the objective. That tactic is specially viable with the shrouding and invisibility combo. And worst thing is that the eldar don't have a hard time getting their powers. The stones and the runes reduce a lot the charges needed by the farseer, whom provides more often than not the needed amount of them by his mere presence. We will always have more WCs than those needed with the D6.
Deployment: Dawn of War, 4'x4'
Primary Mission: The Relic (Win - 12pts, Draw - 6pts, Loss - 0pts)
Secondary Mission: 2x Objectives (Win - 12pts, Draw - 6pts, Loss - 0pts)
Tertiary Mission: Warlord, 1st Blood, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Relic is centralized in a 12" courtyard surrounded by Ruins. 2x Objectives are in opposing deployment zones. Moderate LOS screening
Modifiers: Helbrute has 4A (as per "Roused to War" FAQ), all Formation Special rules are in use. Use the Draft FAQs!
Constraints: Box contents only (so no Grav Cannon), only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades, Forgeworld may not be used
The SM Tactical Squad has the unique ability to Combat Squad. Half their team can control their backfield and plink away with their Missile Launcher, which is incidentally their only box option. The other half of the squad can advance on foot with a Special Weapon. Splitting the squad essentially guarantees winning the secondary mission (Objectives).
The CSM Squad cannot split up, and they can't win a long-range firefight, so they need to concentrate on the Relic primary and hope to draw the divided Tactical Marines into CC. They do get 2x Specials which is a little more appropriate for footslogging across the board (but only one of each kind). By far their best advantage is T5 through Mark of Nurgle, which will make anything under S7 much less effective.
The Chaos Lord can take Mark of Nurgle alongside his squad, which means he can't be doubled out by any weapon except the Dread PF. That's decisive because now he can take an offensive relic. Eye of Night = D3 Ignore Cover Pen hits on the Dread. Since it doesn't replace a weapon, the Lord can combine a LC and Chainfist for an extra attack.
The SM Captain risks getting doubled out at T4 by the CSM Lord. Without a Storm Shield to model Shield Eternal, the best Relic to counter this is Gorgon's Chain. Incidentally that determines Chapter Tactics for the SM force. The SM Captain recieves significantly better defense than the CSM Lord, but being limited by the starter set's offensive options, he can't pick up a LC to pair with his PF (stolen from the Tac Marine Sgt).
The SM force can leverage their Formation bonus against the Helbrute, which stands a very unlikely chance of surviving. However, the Ven Dread is completely outclassed by Eye of Night. Both vehicles are priority targets unlikely to last the game, but Eye of Night probably has the advantage in terms of Alpha Striking and First Blood.
CSM already recieve Hatred through VotLW, meaning their Formation bonus is most likely, completely redundant. But if CSM scores First Blood, SM will have to contest the Relic, and it's very likely this game will be decided by CC.
CSM (Black Legion) - 637pts
Terminator Lord (262pts) : Eye of Night, Mark of Nurgle, Chainfist/LC, Sigil, VotLW CSM Squad (240pts) : Mark of Nurgle, Meltagun/Plasmagun, Combi-Weapon, Power Fist, VotLW Helbrute (135pts) : TL-Lascannon, Power Scourge
- Primary : Advantage to CSM (+12)
- Secondary : Advantage to SM (+12)
- Tertiary : Warlord to both (+2 each), First Blood to CSM (+2) Linebreaker to CSM (+2)
Final score: 18 to CSM, 14 to SM.
Projected CSM victory -- CSM advances to Round #2!!
Sum up: It's the Eye of Night and Mark of Nurgle which tip this towards CSM. Without Eye of Night, it would be almost impossible for CSM to disable the Venerable Dread, which would neutralize their CC advantage completely. Luckily, Black Legion has the perfect counter and we aren't balancing with points.
Begin stating your reasons to appeal the decision now!
I'm sorry, but this so hideously "fixed" it isn't even funny...
First off, since we're allowing the CSM's to list tailor by taking the Eye of Night, then the Marines would almost certainly run either White Scars (for Hit-and-Run shenanigans) or Imp Fists (for better shooting through their formation bonus) tactics.
And let's be honest, those Marines are going for Grav + Combi-Grav.
You purposely gave the Dreadnought the absolute worst possible loadout, likely because we obviously want to ensure that CSM's win so that we can "prove" that they're not the worst box...
More than likely, that Dread is going for the Assault cannon (seriously, what part of 8/S6, Rending shots doesn't make sense here?!) and then trading up it's ccw for a Missile launcher. (Marines want to out-shoot the CSM side)
So really, if *I* was running the SM box, knowing full well it's going up against the Chaos box, then I'm running;
- Termie Captain w/The Primarch's Wrath, Relic Blade, Digi weapons, Melta bombs
- 10x Tacticals w/Missile launcher, Grav gun, Combi-Grav, Power sword, Melta bombs
- Ven Dread w/Ass-can, Missile launcher
Chaos meanwhile, at the absolute "best" can get;
- Lord w/MoN, Lightning claw + Power fist, Sigil, Eye of Night
- 10x Chaos Marines w/Plasma + Meltagun, Power fist + Plasma pistol champ. (note: there is no combi-weapon option for the Aspiring Champion, so giving him one breaks your own rules! )
- Hellbrute w/Reaper Autocannon, Missile launcher.
If the Marine player is smart, they sit back and realise that the *only* way for the Chaos side to even remotely stand a chance is to somehow get into close combat... (hence why White Scars tactics would be cruel to use against the Chaos side!)
Lucky for them, their formation bonus lets them excel at just that!
Everything unloads into the squad itself; 8x S6/Rending shots+2x S8/ap3, Grav, and finally 5x S4/Shred shots from the Captain's relic bolter. (which, since it's a bolter, could benefit from Imp Fists tactics!)
Unless they hide in cover all game, there's just no way the Chaos side can weather the Marine's far superior shooting.
The Eye of Night is also nothing more than a one-shot fail-marry to boot... Sure it's range is unlimited, but it's still a 'Blast' type weapon, meaning that it has pretty solid odds of actually entirely missing the Dread instead of hitting it!
And if it does hit, you only have a 33% shot at outright killing the Ven Dread. 1 or 2 pens and it's re-roll ability comes into play, so you'll be forced to re-roll any unfavourable result.
Besides, even if the Chaos gets lucky and murders the Ven Dread 1st turn, before it can even get a single shot off, what then? Marines still have range, and Grav... The Tac squad can have the Captain tank the few ap2 shots that the Chaos side gets, essentially sacrificing himself long enough for the Grav gun to take out pretty much the entire Chaos side, minus the Hellbrute. (which itself, is literally forced to go pure shooty to try and HP out the Ven Dread within a couple turns.)
Sorry, but Imperium wins this one every time, outside extremely biased diced favouring the Chaos player.
Good points y'all! Remember, we can always reverse the results if it makes sense to. Let's dig into it a bit more.
@ Lord Kragan: What happens if Eldar fail to generate their desired powers? Both Telepathy and Divination are maybe stronger choices, but 2/3rds of the powers are marginal. There's at least a 30% chance of being stuck with the chaff. There's also a chance of powers failing -- casting a WC1 power on three dice will produce a 33% chance to fail, if it's done 3 times. So in at least 53% of matches, you're looking at a scenario where the psychic phase won't go quite as planned during the first three turns (and realistically, DtW increases that %). How does Eldar play around their suboptimal scenarios?
Guard will also attempt to protect their units, such as screening infantry behind both the LR hull + BLOS terrain to the flank. Or even reserving, though that would cause its own issues. They'll have T1 in 50% of matches, and if Guard can effectively target something at the top of T1, it may alter the outcome. If Eldar lack key powers in 30% of matchups, go first in 35% of matchups, and go second in 35%, how do things play out? It's a 4' X 4' board, remember, so there's less space and less terrain to place which can completely hide Grav Tanks.
@ 626: Good point about the Combi-Weapon If SM sits back to maximize their shooting advantage, they don't get a movement phase. If that's the case, why can't CSM simply steal the Relic, then return to their DZ to chill out behind LOS near their objective? They don't need to table SM to win, only to win the Primary and tie Secondary. SM can't use their formation bonus if they're forced to move, so putting CSM out of LOS or forcing them to contest the Relic halves their firepower.
But aside from all that, Eye of Night is a 5" blast on a BS5 character, targeting a 60mm base. I don't think you're judging it correctly. What are the odds of it missing entirely, 11% or something? 2x pens on average are great, but instant killing the Dread entirely in almost a third of your matchups is amazing! If CSM takes 1st blood in most matchups (remember, the Helbrute can help to finish the Dread from outside the 24" range of the Assault Cannon), SM is then stuck with a single Tac Squad, two CSM targets that can menace it in CC, and a Relic mission they can't ignore. So that really changes the calculus of the matchup -- once the Ven Dread is removed, it's easy enough to push the Helbrute at the SM squad, while the CSM makes off with the Relic.
@ Kragan:,You're going to end up a very frustrated man if you're undone by incorrect math on dakka. Try and relax a little, it's good for discussion and it's good for the soul. It's also a people skill
1) 8" scatter, minus 5" for the BS5 of the Lord, minus the 2.5" radius of the blast marker = 0.5" which is the displacement of the nearest edge of the blast template to the target. This would hit the Dreadnought base, which has a radius of >1". Is that correct? If so, 8's and all lesser scatter will connect, besides the base chance of simply rolling a direct hit on the scatter die. I guess the odds of the Eye of Night hitting are something more like 82%?
2) Assault Cannons are 24". It's Autocannons that are 48". The Dread cannot target the Helbrute across deployment zones.
3) Guard and CSM shouldn't play on planet bowling ball, while Eldar/SM do not. You're setting up scenarios which disadvantage these players, like priming the Helbrute to eat 4x Autocannon (and 8x illegal Assault Cannon) shots on T1. Armies with less firepower want to minimize their exposure. It makes sense for the Helbrute to deploy out of LOS (as it's certainly smaller than a Grav tank...). The CSM dismounts will want to approach the Relic using midfield cover and concealment. If SM wants to hide anything, CSM should probably run out the clock to their advantage. You can't apply perfect LOS to one faction and not the other.
4) Obliged for correcting the math on the Eldar matchup. Then it's still about 20% when they'll lack their desired powers, 40% chance to go first, 40% chance to go second. Minimal chances of the occasional casting failure due to the Farseer reroll (which I overlooked, cheers). This is a poorer outlook for Guard but the question still stands -- how do things go in the matchups where Eldar don't get their key powers, or if Guard gets 1st turn to attack the Prism? Let's say you can't bring your own terrain to the match, and the Prism can be targeted on this board. Then we can note the impact of obstructing terrain on the outcome.
5) Guard need to preserve their infantry. Full stop. They can't throw it away for a LR cover save. I think that's a fatal mistake in this matchup, because they need to create the situation where it's both LR + Infantry against Jetbikes to win. That's their win condition. Otherwise they're too easily outmanuevered (which we both agree on).
6) Other thing we didn't discuss. ITC typically houserules Invisibility. Maybe we should consider that in our games, as a commonly seen modifier in competition. Again, we can note the difference in outcomes.
Appreciate your contributions but why would CSM/Guard simply play to a losing plan? Exposing their infantry in the early game to be picked apart by a force with superior firepower ensures their loss. They need to pick off the vulnerable unit -- the Ven Dread with Eye of Night/Helbrute, the Fire Prism w/the Leman Russ) and at that point they can try and overload what's left.
The Chaos Marines will eventually have to move out into the open to grab the relic. (note: you're also giving them a scenario that heavily favours them as well!)
If the Loyalist player is even semi-intelligent, they'll simply make sure to deploy/move their units into prime shooting positions overlooking the relic marker, and then just wait out the CSM's.
So sure, maaaaybe the Chaos side gets lucky with a heavily favourable table that let's them hide everything 100% out of LoS, AND, the EoN manages to not scatter off the Ven Dread [b]and then hits that magical 33% odds at one-hit-KO'ing the Dread...
Otherwise, the game ends in a best a draw, since the Chaos side will get murdered by the Marine's 'double shooting phase' ability the second they stick their horned heads out of cover.
And this is in a scenario that entirely favours the CSM side?!
Nope, the Loyalist set is literally 100x better than anything the Chaos one can attempt.
Chaos only ever wins that match-up through sheer dumb luck!
Yoyoyo wrote: @ Kragan:,You're going to end up a very frustrated man if you're undone by incorrect math on dakka. Try and relax a little, it's good for discussion and it's good for the soul. It's also a people skill
1) 8" scatter, minus 5" for the BS5 of the Lord, minus the 2.5" radius of the blast marker = 0.5" which is the displacement of the nearest edge of the blast template to the target. This would hit the Dreadnought base, which has a radius of >1". Is that correct? If so, 8's and all lesser scatter will connect, besides the base chance of simply rolling a direct hit on the scatter die. I guess the odds of the Eye of Night hitting are something more like 82%?
2) Assault Cannons are 24". It's Autocannons that are 48". The Dread cannot target the Helbrute across deployment zones.
3) Guard and CSM shouldn't play on planet bowling ball, while Eldar/SM do not. You're setting up scenarios which disadvantage these players, like priming the Helbrute to eat 4x Autocannon (and 8x illegal Assault Cannon) shots on T1. Armies with less firepower want to minimize their exposure. It makes sense for the Helbrute to deploy out of LOS (as it's certainly smaller than a Grav tank...). The CSM dismounts will want to approach the Relic using midfield cover and concealment. If SM wants to hide anything, CSM should probably run out the clock to their advantage. You can't apply perfect LOS to one faction and not the other.
4) Obliged for correcting the math on the Eldar matchup. Then it's still about 20% when they'll lack their desired powers, 40% chance to go first, 40% chance to go second. Minimal chances of the occasional casting failure due to the Farseer reroll (which I overlooked, cheers). This is a poorer outlook for Guard but the question still stands -- how do things go in the matchups where Eldar don't get their key powers, or if Guard gets 1st turn to attack the Prism? Let's say you can't bring your own terrain to the match, and the Prism can be targeted on this board. Then we can note the impact of obstructing terrain on the outcome.
5) Guard need to preserve their infantry. Full stop. They can't throw it away for a LR cover save. I think that's a fatal mistake in this matchup, because they need to create the situation where it's both LR + Infantry against Jetbikes to win. That's their win condition. Otherwise they're too easily outmanuevered (which we both agree on).
6) Other thing we didn't discuss. ITC typically houserules Invisibility. Maybe we should consider that in our games, as a commonly seen modifier in competition. Again, we can note the difference in outcomes.
Appreciate your contributions but why would CSM/Guard simply play to a losing plan? Exposing their infantry in the early game to be picked apart by a force with superior firepower ensures their loss. They need to pick off the vulnerable unit -- the Ven Dread with Eye of Night/Helbrute, the Fire Prism w/the Leman Russ) and at that point they can try and overload what's left.
There's several glaring issues:
1) I need to update once and for all my mobile's battlescribe. It says that Assault cannon's are 48'' AND TL base. Yeah, want to know where they got it since that it says it can also take Auto cannons with Assault cannons which the codex states you cannot do.
2) Need to corroborate my calculus, I wrote down 2.75 instead of 3.75 (which is the distance needed for a 5" to utterly miss) still a rather feasible prospect as the one of not getting psychic powers.
3) regarding the psychic powers the answer varies a lot depending on what exactly we got. I'll run you three scenarios: we decided to roll ALL telepathy or ALL divination and we, after the second roll on any of the tables we decided to go a safe route and get the primaris: divination and shriek. In all three cases, though. We assume we won't attack head-on but instead we will turbo/flat-out in search for LoS-blocking terrain (which isn't hard once you consider the bikes are rather small) and that the prism is in reserve.
C) Safe route: in this case we zip out to a LoS blocking-building that gives us LoS if we move up to 12'' (like a manifactorum's lower level we can hop on next turn.) We have the prism in reserve. Guard needs to move onward to get the relic. At this point we don't care of whom begins first as long as the bikes were out of LoS (not really hard, they aren't that big).
Now in turn two, guard has moved on, still unable to target the sneaky eldar. We fail the reserve roll.
A) We will roll ALL telepathy. This one boils down into getting terrify and/or hallucination. Basically repeat C but with more (possibly) powerful shriek or more potential for damage.
B) This one is more finicky and will depend on us getting either scrier's gaze and/or foreboding+precognition. In the latter case we go balls deep in a hail mary of glory since turn 2. Close range while staying out of LoS. We risk the proverbial 3 powers but first and foremost the first two. Shoot and then charge the guard. If we do get the previous two powers we are assured the squad's survival
Perhaps they have the relic now but it matter little: farseer casts shriek and causes 2 wounds and then may cast any other boon they may have gotten (for example scriers gaze or precognition). If he did get terrify then better as it will increase the number of wounds caused and may force morale checks for sweet BLAMS!. He zips out in a turbo, getting to safety.
Turn 3, guard must choose to give chase or go back to objective camping. Let's assume they give chase with the whole group but are getting the guard behind the russ. It matters little for the eldar vehicles climb on top of buildings and thus get LoS. Rinse and repeat the procedure of the last time. IF the guard suffered 5-6 dead from shriek they can attempt prescience and thus get 10.7 hits which translate into 9 (8.9) wounds which will be transleted into 3-4 dead guardsmen (read: the whole squad). By dancing with death we ensure first blood. If the prism came from reserves we can ensure it by firing the big pieplat at them. It will cause 1-2 dead guardsmen. The russ fires EVERYTHING at the guardians whom may or may not have a 4++ or may have jinked. averaging 2.5 hits and 2.08 wounds (3 hits but 2 wounds) the guardians lose a member.
And we are back at the finale of scenario A from my previous explanation. Maybe we don't pull it straight out but by turn 5-6 (depending on whom goes first, AND if the game doesn't end before, in which case we get victory for eldar for first blood and slay the warlord) there will be a hail of scatter lasers fired on the russ ass coupled (maybe) with a singing spear and a possible charge.
4) Regarding marines: if their player has half a brain there's no doubt they'll be positioned in a way they can target the relic without the need to move. The moment they grab the relic they ought to be ready to fire. And remember: they have line of sight since they got to kill the dreadnought.
4.1) during the movement phase: 3 grav-shots, 8 bolt-shots and 1 missile and then 5 primarch's wrath shots. Let's make it 2 grav-hits and 6 bolt hits and 4 PW hits. 1.332 wounds from grav (1 unsaved wound) and 4 bolter based (bolt+PW) wounds) which translate in a second dead marine. Now comes the shooting phase and we pop the tactical doctrine and use the combi-grav: we end up with 5.3 grav hits (let's make it 5) and 5 PW hits plus 6 bolter hits and a missile hit. Missile wounds and so do 3 grav shots, resulting in 3 dead CSM due to cover saves allowing 1 to survive. We wind up with 4-5 bolter wounds which translates into the seventh CSM death. In just a single turn. You just need one more in a 5 turn long game and the hellbrute still won't be able to charge you the following turn.
Experiment 626 wrote: So sure, maaaaybe the Chaos side gets lucky with a heavily favourable table that let's them hide everything 100% out of LoS, AND, the EoN manages to not scatter off the Ven Dread [b]and then hits that magical 33% odds at one-hit-KO'ing the Dread...!
That's the general idea, yes. I'd strongly encourage you not to just obligingly line up your army to be shot off the board!
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@ Kragan -- seems to me the only way for Guard to pull off a victory if the Prism is reserved and the bikes aren't in LOS, is to deploy their infantry far enough back that they're not visible after a 12" Jetbike move. At this point there's a defensive stalemate, where every unit except the LR is too fragile to risk moving. Even then there's not a lot of opportunity for Guard to press an advantage, because the Prism will arrive shortly and the bikes are too fast to pin down.
Guard may be able to claim 1st Blood when the Prism comes out of Reserve, and still manage to protect enough Infantry to contest the Relic at the endgame. That's against Shriek and Prescience. If we're charitable and give Guard 100% of victories when Eldar don't generate Shrouding or Invis, and give Guard victories in 50% of games where they go 1st (imagine the Russ can fire effectively on the Jetbikes on T1, causing 2x casualties), Eldar still win the series about 60-40.
I guess we have our first projected result overturned!! Anybody have other observations? Or should we call this one and advance to the next match?
Nevertheless. Let's go on to make the chaos in-fighting. That is: daemons of khorne versus daemons of nurgle!
Deployment - Dawn of War
Primary - Relic (12pts)
Secondary - Objective Control (12pts)
Tertiary - First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Moderate LOS Screening, 2x Objectives
Modifiers: Formation special rules are mandatory if available, use the Draft FAQs.
Constraints: Box contents only, only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades (ie. 3x max on vehicles), Forgeworld benefits not be used.
This armies lack formations as their start collecting! is geared for Age of Skubmar but nevertheless let's give them a nice rundown:
The daemons of khorne could be used either as khorne daemonkin or daemons of chaos. I will limit myself to do a KDK match because they are actually the best suited to deal with the nurgle fellows.
Now, the daemons have a bit of a peculiarity on their reward and locus system but we will go down this route:
a) the troop sarges may get ONE lesser reward.
b) the HQs may get one to two lesser rewards or a lesser reward and a greater one (but not exalted ones).
c) Locii will be considered wargear.
So here's the lists I thought up for the KDK and the chaos daemons of nurgle:
Khorne DaemonKin army: 510pts
HQ: Bloodthrone: herald has the brazen rune and a collar of khorne and the exalted locus of wrath: it will boost the damage output of bloodcrushers and the bloodletters.
Elite: 3 blood crushers, banner of blood and the bloodhunter upgrade.
Troops: 10 blood letters with bloodreaper, banner of blood and instrument of chaos.
Daemons of Nurgle: 561pts
Herald of Nurgle with ML2 and grotty the nurgling. Lesser and greater reward. Has icon of fertilence.
Troops:
3x nurgling bases and 10x plaguebearers with icon of plague, plaguereaper with lesser reward and instrument of chaos.
FA: 3x plague drones with the death's head upgrade and with the 3+ poison. The bossman has a lesser reward
So up ahead it seems the nurglites have a small advantage in points.
In this game both armies have 3x units. Personally the nurglings are better off being the holders of the nurglite objective, since they have a low number of bodies. Sure 4 wounds sounds quite nice and all but the T3 means those angry blood crushers will bring painful ID to you.
KDK pros and cons:
Pros:
The KDK has excellent leadership (army wide fearless) and excellent mobility: charges are assured at least 5 (difficult terrain) to 7 inches and two out of three units have a 12'' movement range and are fleet (if my chariot's rules isn't foggy, haven't played daemons in a looong time). This means your effective threat range can be around 19''-21'' (we assume the re-rolls improve your charge results from 7 to 9) Which is a huge chunk of the battlefield. They are terrifying on the assault with their furious charge, rage and hatred from the locus. This basically means bloodcrushers can pump 5 S6 hits while re-rolling failed to hit rolls. Auch. Their boss is also a very resilient anti-psyker unit with the capability to deflect psychic attacks on a 3+ and forcing perils on ANY doubles.
Cons:
a)the warp table can be detrimental but also a boon and actually be beneficial around half (54, roughly speaking, of the time we will get benefits for no downsides). The dice gods are fickle but they can be generous. I still remember that time I rolled two elevens in a row.
b) the bloodtithe won't kick in until your army has been bloodied badly (1/3 of it) or the enemy's, so it's slightly redundant. Meanwhile the psyker herald can buff his army from the get-go.
c) they are FRAIL. Their toughest unit is a vehicle (can only be wounded 1/6 of the time by regular soldiers and better pray that the nurgle herald didn't roll armourbane).
d) lack rewards to improve our sarges and herald.
e) our troop choice is border-line useless in this match. Daemons have now armor so AP3 means crap and even on the charge the enemy will cause more wounds (75% always versus a 66% or lower chance) than them unless they are targetting the nurglings... which is a slowed idea as the little buggers are tarpit.
On the other hand most of the nurglite army is fething slow (6'' move with no chance to run). So the KDK will be able to dance around them. Sure, the plague drones are as (if not more!) mobile as the khornate units but the blood god's minions have army wide mobility while over 3/4 of nurgle's forces are pretty damn slow. On the flip side the nurgle army is fething tough. The core force is t4 and will have a 5++/5+++ FNP, meaning less than half the wounds will get through. This can be brought to hilarious extremes with the right rolls on the warlord traits and greater rewards as our herald (whom can get a total 4-wounds to become a monstrous creature lite). They have psykers so they can buff their forces or bring reinforcements from the very beginning. We can benefit from warp storm but it can also shank us REAL hard. We have shooting (in the form of the death's heads and maybe som maledictions witchfires) and better meele overall due to our superior resilience.
Here's where we're at so far in the original bracket, projected winners are highlighted in yellow.
R1 Match #1: Space Marines vs. CSM R1 Match #2: Necrons vs. Tau R1 Match #3: Space Wolves vs. Khorne Daemons
R1 Match #4: Imperial Guard vs. Eldar R1 Match #5: Blood Angels vs. Dark Eldar
R1 Match #6: Scions vs. Nurgle Daemons
R1 Match #7: Skitarii vs. Orks
R1 Match #8: Tyranids
Daemon infighting bonus match: in progress
Anybody want to try narrating any upcoming matches? (do BA Martel!)
Actually, DE versus BA is quite one sided in favor of the BA.
The baal predator just renders the poor DE unable to do anything. the assault cannon turret poors down fire from "far enough", while the heavy flamers will decimate any DE trooper foolish enough to come close.
The DE however, can't really touch the ball in range other than a handful of dark lances, but if you are in dark lance range, the baal can drive up to assault cannon range.
There is simply no way to safely engage the baal.
Then you pile on the marines and the captain-they don't need to do anyhting fancy, just camp out wherever they cover the most objectives so if anything gets close they can start shooting it.
Pack a lascanon so you can ping away at the raider right off the bat and force it to jink, negating much of the little AT that the DE has around, flamer to punish any would-be charges even further than how much its a bad idea to charge cabalites/3 bikes on a marine squad with a terminator captain attached, and volla.
BA wins by utter zone control. even though they got a lousy as hell formation, the fact they got a fast tank with templates is simply something the DE kit is not set out to handle.
1) have the bloodletters hunker down on one of the objectives, thus denying the enemy of the chance of getting fully the secondary (6+ pts down our bank). The bloodletters will be useless in this match as they'll have only a single attack that will wound on 3+/4+ AT BEST, thanks to the defensive grenades called being daemons of nurgle.
2) place the blood throne and the crushers on one side and focus them on the unit of nurglings charging at whatever place they are at.
Now, the herald could boost their toughness with the 6th spell in the nurgle lore but at best we are getting a 1/3 chance and then it can fail (let's say we spend 3 dice on the WC1 version so as to deny ID on the nurglings. we will fail 1/8, meaning that plan will only work a 1/4 of the time but it would be a really uphill battle for the khornate forces)
The KDK army must target first the nurglings/plague drones. The reason is simple: they are the "weaker" units as the early will be IDed on the charge and the latter though stronger has very few models which means that losing combat and failing checks will feth them over.
KDK doesn't need to wipe out the nurgle forces, just whittle them down and let instability do the job. Sure you can recover the whole unit but that's only a 3% of the time so unless you use a loaded dice don't count on it.
Just charge the crushers and the throne on whatever unit you fancy (preferably the plague drones/nurglings) and try to maximize the number of wounds. The crushers do 10 attacks on the charge (no bonus due to nurgle daemons!) at s6 and 3 HoW at S5. Supposing you go for the drones you will score 1 wound from HoW (1.5 wounds and save 0.5) and then hit 9 times (89,1 percent for 3+ and re-rolling for hatred from the locus which SHOULD and MUST be within 12'') and wound 6 times to cause 4 wounds. At that point the drones will be wiped out in 97 out of 100 of situations as the demonic instability will obliterate them on anything but a double 1. their damage output will be:
1) they passed their fear check (they AREN'T fearless) around 60% of the time: 5 hits and roughly 3-4 wounds.
2)they failed their fear check (around 40%): 3.33 (3) hits and wounds 66% of the time (89 if it's within the grotti's range, which I somehow doubt it will likely). so like 2
Statistically speaking the nurgle player won't kill any crusher should he go first (well... he may witha bit of luck). But in either case the squad can and will be obliterated in a round of combat should the thorne intervene. And in case 2) they WILL regardless of the throne's participation. And let me tell you this is in the case they made a charge through terrain (and dropped to I1). Otherwise the drones are deadmeat before they can try to poke the khorne fellows. Their shooting attacks can wound 2/3 of the time but miss half the time so in truth you're looking at 3 hits and 2 wounds which translates into a wound or so. Barely a scratch. Sure you can move 2d6'' but you were within 12'' before so you need to roll an 8 or higher to avoid the charge (and then the enemy would have a decent change at getting you).
Regardless. The nurgle army will be forced to fight in a tightly packed formation least their units be picked apart by the rampaging enemy but even then the khorne daemonkin can strategically charge and disrupt their force, being by a long shot the most likely to get first blood. We are also more likely to get linebreaker (and deny it) with our better mobility.
The nurgle player can still try to screen with the bearers+herald but they need to fan out very thinly spread and the KDK can use it in their favor: as they'll charge the unit in a way the herald of nurgle cannot get into CC (like the tip of one of the sides) and then force instability checks that will further weaken the nurgle army. The chariot could strike right head-on and the crushers on the flank bringing a potential of 6 (more reallistically 3-4) HoW at S7 and 3 at S5. Best case scenario we would get 7 wounds which under normal circumstances would net 3 dead bearers (down a 50%-ish from FNP given by the locus and invul) Again the
Short answer: do the KDK get the charge-specially with their heavy hitters-? They win. Otherwise they are more likely to lose due to the sheer resiliance from the other side. But the thing is that the KDK are the most likely to get the charge with their effective 22-23 (we assume the average goes by one from 3-4 to 4-5) threat range versus an average of mainly 13'' inches from most of the nurgles. If the drones charge first they can heavily wound the crushers but they'll surely attack first and pull enough wounds as to deny them the chance of victory with a bit of luck (namely they deal 3 unsaved wounds, one more than average... not unlikely as how often I get to fail 5 ups) or hold up til the raging chariot makes it. Meanwhile the nurgle forces would still be far behind.
Depending how it goes I see KDK getting 1st blood and linebreaker, dominating secondary while nurgle gets primary (16 vs 12) or that they went for an all out meele and the nurgle daemons lost due to the nurgle daemons managed to focus ALL their units into one of the nurgle ones and wipe it out with instability and wound saturation. 10 blood thirsters with hatred translate into 3 dead nurglings and the crushers can almost kill 5 of them. The throne can deal tremendous damage too and kill a couple more models and thus offset the S6 against toughness 3 or 2 netting them a couple of wounds to reduce the advantage but at three attacks he's missing at least once and maybe facing another one saving thus saying that it's a reallistic bet that he will still test instability on ld 8-10+3 or 2 for those inexperienced.
The key is the same as alway for khorne units: get into combat earlier than anyone. Be king.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I disagree with Boomwolf.
The baal predator has two main weapons:
a) the tl Assault cannon will net 3.6 hits and 1.8 glances but it can be taken down to 0.9/0.6 damage with the right position and nightshields.
b) the flamestorm will burn the deldar inside but it will take a minimum of 2 turns assuming we both deployed at the maximum distance from the edge. Which the deldar most likely won't and maybe not the blood angels.
In both cases the blood angels won't get to fire them should they go first (since neither the tank nor the enemy deployed at the 12'' mark to avoid getting shot down first) but most likely in the first one.
The eldar can win but like always they need a bit of clever management.
I might as well throw in how I think the DE vs BA fight will go.
Now, I'm not well versed on the BA codex, so if I make any incorrect assumptions please forgive.
DE loadout: 400 points
Archon w/Shadowfield, WWP, blaster
9 man Warriors w/blaster, Sybarite w/ HGW
Raider w/ Night shields, dark lance
Reavers w/ CC and heat lance
Blood Angels loadout (if others would say take a different loadout thats fine, as you probably know more about them then i do) 445 points
Captain in termie armor w/ thunderhammer, auspex, storm bolter
10 man tac squad with heavy bolter, plasma gun, combi-plasma
Baal predator with asscan and heavy bolters
So, with this loadout the BA have a bunch of firepower to kill just about everything the DE have, but the DE have a bunch of firepower too.
The way I see it happening is the DE keep the Reavers far back for the first turn or two with everything else in deep strike for the WWP to drop them right next to the Baal and try to pop it. The BA can take objectives during that time, but catching the Reavers isn't very likely. When they do finally come in, I think that they can take out the tank, with two blasters, a haywire grenade, and a dark lance.
Assuming good placement by the BA, the Raider will almost immediately die from return fire before the Reavers can get to them. After than, the tac squad with the captain is probably going to get worn down by HOW from the Reavers, and the single turn of shooting the Warriors will get after falling out of their raider, as the tac squad will have fired everything, so unable to charge that turn.
Feel free to correct if i made any mistakes or bad assumptions.
BoomWolf wrote: Using the WWP is suicide. If the baal catches the reavers, and it can, it's tabling.
How so? The Baal has 1-2 turns to try and catch them, and they will be hiding as far back as possible. If it moves towards them, the Reavers can just boost somewhere else
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote: Raiders are open topped so if the baal pred gets it with the flame storm it's gg.
Yup, which is why they try and pop it with the dark lance, 2 blasters, and haywire grenade. If they fail at that then they're toast, but if they get it then its gg for the blood angels
Gonna go with Tau, the Crisis team can take Skyfire or I would run them as 2 with 2CiB,TL and 1 as a mini buff suit, ignore cover/twinlink/monster or tank hunter,and the firewarrior team with the ethereal and drones can pump out enough shots to not need skyfire and keep most things at a distance while the suits harrass them with JSJ
@ Kragan -- Nice to see your logic on the Nurgle versus Khorne battle, its one of the matchups I wished I'd had space for in the initial bracket. Well done, Khorne takes the Daemon vs. Daemon grudge match. Good show
@ Dioxayln -- Tau has the benefit of massive customization, that's really strong in a format where you can't choose units. We'll probably see them make final 4 at least, if we can carry out this thread to its conclusion.
@ BA versus DE commentators -- here's the scenario for the next matchup. We'll try and help DE a bit by making it a simple Objectives + KP mission. Remember this combat patrol format is on a 4' by 4' board, so there's a bit less room to hide in these matches.
R1 Match #5: Blood Angels vs. Dark Eldar
Scenario #2 (No Quarter) ====================
Deployment - Hammer and Anvil
Primary - Objective Control (12pts)
Secondary - Units 100% destroyed (12pts)
Tertiary - First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Moderate LOS Screening, 6x Objectives, 4' x 4' tabletop
Modifiers: Formations are mandatory if available, use the GW Draft FAQs + Errata
Constraints: Box contents only, only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades, Forgeworld benefits not be used.
BoomWolf wrote: Using the WWP is suicide. If the baal catches the reavers, and it can, it's tabling.
How so? The Baal has 1-2 turns to try and catch them, and they will be hiding as far back as possible. If it moves towards them, the Reavers can just boost somewhere else
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote: Raiders are open topped so if the baal pred gets it with the flame storm it's gg.
Yup, which is why they try and pop it with the dark lance, 2 blasters, and haywire grenade. If they fail at that then they're toast, but if they get it then its gg for the blood angels
The table is mere 4x4, they really can't stay out of range unless the terrain is really thick. They'll avoid the flamesr via boosting, but not the cannon. And the cannon kills one or two on the average volley, potentially causing an ld brake. (if the BA chose heavy bolters rather than flamer, killing the entire biker group in one volley is well within the realm of possibility)
While the Raider is away, the lascanon group might as well throw more potshots at the bikes, and after the combat squad you got the lascanon group and the flamer group covering a hell lot of ground to prevent boosting there being a rational option.
The WWP raider drop however, has no guarantee to drop at turn 2,it might be only on turn 4.
Its just not good strategy to use deepstrike on such small forces.
BoomWolf wrote: Using the WWP is suicide. If the baal catches the reavers, and it can, it's tabling.
You got it: IF. It's the same deal as eldar jetbikes, only worse, they aren't afraid of terrain with their. The baal has no way whatsoever to get the bikes if they move smart (read: go to anywhere in the map, which they can rich with their 48'' move+turbo) where the BAngels won't get them). The Flamestorm cannon's will wreck Deldar but it threat range is just 20''. Even while being right at the center it may not be able to reach the bikes.
Also, it may drop on turn 4 but with labirinthine cunning (30% chance) your chances are... like 3%, and around 10% otherwise. The chances of you entering in turn 4 are extremely low.
If you can upgrade the units however you want, the Nurgle box has a very powerful little death star.
Herald of nurgle: ML2, FnP upgrade, Grimoire of true names.
Upgrade the PB and drone serpents to have lesser rewards (plague flails for +1S for this match, usually etherblades though). The drones should also have every upgrade, poison +3 is insane, and the Sgt being S5 poison +3, he will be doing serious work.
Drop him in with the drones. You can either give him biomancy for the potential self buffs. Any of the blessings will be amazingly awesome. You could also go for malediction, but your only ML2, so summoning is a crapshoot, and its a very smal chance for cursed earth.
Drones with grimoire will be able to run through the entire khorne army with little trouble. They are also faster than anything but the chariot. However the chariot can very easily double tap the nurglings and PBs.
Daemons are not fearless, but the auto pass fear, so no worries about that. The double warp storm would play a big role in this battle.
Nurglings will be a good fight against bloodletters, but a good shot from the cannon will kill them.
Bottom line, as long as grimoire is on the drones, Khorne army wont want to engage. I would sit back and take pot shots with the cannon, kill the nurglings first, so they can't mess with anything, 12 attacks/wounds is nothing to scoff at. I have 3 man nurgling squads tie up and take out marines often enough. Then I would pot shot the PB once or twice. Lastly focus on the drones.
Of course, as a nurgle player with this setup, I would have an icon on my drones, PB would have icon/instrument, and I would probably go all out. Hold the troops in reserves and risk it all. That cannon's ignore cover will really mess up Nurgle stuff!
Bloodletters are basically S4 guardsmen, as they will never have the bonus attack. Defensive grenades prevents that from happening, so if they charge through cover, they are totally dead, even nurglings would win that combat.
gwarsh41 wrote: If you can upgrade the units however you want, the Nurgle box has a very powerful little death star.
Herald of nurgle: ML2, FnP upgrade, Grimoire of true names.
Upgrade the PB and drone serpents to have lesser rewards (plague flails for +1S for this match, usually etherblades though). The drones should also have every upgrade, poison +3 is insane, and the Sgt being S5 poison +3, he will be doing serious work.
Drop him in with the drones. You can either give him biomancy for the potential self buffs. Any of the blessings will be amazingly awesome. You could also go for malediction, but your only ML2, so summoning is a crapshoot, and its a very smal chance for cursed earth.
Drones with grimoire will be able to run through the entire khorne army with little trouble. They are also faster than anything but the chariot. However the chariot can very easily double tap the nurglings and PBs.
Daemons are not fearless, but the auto pass fear, so no worries about that. The double warp storm would play a big role in this battle.
Nurglings will be a good fight against bloodletters, but a good shot from the cannon will kill them.
Bottom line, as long as grimoire is on the drones, Khorne army wont want to engage. I would sit back and take pot shots with the cannon, kill the nurglings first, so they can't mess with anything, 12 attacks/wounds is nothing to scoff at. I have 3 man nurgling squads tie up and take out marines often enough. Then I would pot shot the PB once or twice. Lastly focus on the drones.
Of course, as a nurgle player with this setup, I would have an icon on my drones, PB would have icon/instrument, and I would probably go all out. Hold the troops in reserves and risk it all. That cannon's ignore cover will really mess up Nurgle stuff!
Bloodletters are basically S4 guardsmen, as they will never have the bonus attack. Defensive grenades prevents that from happening, so if they charge through cover, they are totally dead, even nurglings would win that combat.
There's a serious flaw in your battleplan and you're assuming neither the grimoire nor the reserve rolls will screw you. Yes, the grimoir may up you to a 3++ or a 2++ with the right warpstorm... it can also be down to 4++ with the wrong warpstorm, 6++ a 33% of the time (the reason fateweaver is such a popular receptor of the item is because it makes it less of a crapshoot) or even NONE with the 1-2 result and the wrong warpstorm.
But nevermind: sure drop them and give us the perfect chance to snipe the nurglings with a furious charge, granting us first blood, and obliterate the bearers before you're given half a chance. A 50% of the time we will go first, which means to movement phases (read: 12''+d6 run and another 12'' plus 6+d6 charge, we reach the bottom of the map by turn 2 assuredly). Heck. Even if they drop in turn 1 there's a one in three chance they are buttfucked as they'll have only a 6++ and even otherwise the daemonkin can mass charge them (with our lowest threat range averaging 15-16 inches). Sure a 3++ may be nice But against 3+d6HoW, 10 S6 attacks, 10 S5 attacks and a few more from the bloodthrone which will hit on 3+ and will re-roll failed hits thanks to the banner? that's 9 S6 hits (6 wounds, 2 unsaved ones) and 9 S5 hits (around 1.5 unsaved wounds which will round up to two wounds with the crushers HoWs) plus two an average of 3 wounds from the chariot (4 hits and 1 failing to wound) causing a seventh wound and the herald and letters from the crew making another unsaved wound. That's 6 unsaved wounds. By the time your wasps have the chance to attack they are dead. Sure you could get endurance, iron arm or some shennanigans. But if the daemons are like the CSM, 1 in 6 chance isn't THAT reliable. Meanwhile, the khornate mass charge won't dissappoint save for extremely unlucky dice rolls.
Sorry but your plan is even worse.
It actually goes down to the blood angels but due to heavy bolter fire!
Assuming the following BAngel list:
Tank with AC and HBs. Captain with that stuff. Squad with a heavy flamer and a melta.
Assuming WWP tactic:
A) Bangels get first turn: Assault cannon fires and hits 3 times (3. something). Wounds thrice and kills a bike. HBs hit twice (2.5 due to snap firing) and wound twice. Cause no wounds. Marines may be lucky and throw a ten shot volley in which case it ends statistically in a GG for them in turn 1.
B) BAngels get second turn: same as above but the bikes scurry away for a whole turn.
Assuming they field the raider:
A) Bangels get first turn: predator neuters the raider, as its forced to jink (and thus nullify the crew's shooting) to survive. The bikes are unable to get close to a S5 ignores cover and armor weapon that autohits when they charge. Blood angels victory.
B) Predator has a 40% of getting knocked by the lance... otherwise its pretty much case A again.
Yoyoyo wrote: Here's all the armies in contention, for reference.
...
8) Blood Throne, 3x Bloodcrushers, 3x Bloodletters
Slight correction:
You can take a Blood Throne OR a skull cannon and separate herald. Also, there are 10 Bloodletters, not 3 (9 if you need to use a base for the herald).
Sure you could get endurance, iron arm or some shennanigans. But if the daemons are like the CSM, 1 in 6 chance isn't THAT reliable.
Heralds of Nurgle can be ML2, there are 3 powers that would be very useful in this match. Iron arm, warp speed, and mostly, enfeeble. You should learn both sides of the army before making all these wild accusations, then come back and re-evaluate. You are also making plenty of assumptions, but you are very... adamant about this. So I will just drop it so I don't have to see another wall of text.
Sure you could get endurance, iron arm or some shennanigans. But if the daemons are like the CSM, 1 in 6 chance isn't THAT reliable.
Heralds of Nurgle can be ML2, there are 3 powers that would be very useful in this match. Iron arm, warp speed, and mostly, enfeeble. You should learn both sides of the army before making all these wild accusations, then come back and re-evaluate. You are also making plenty of assumptions, but you are very... adamant about this. So I will just drop it so I don't have to see another wall of text.
Then you're getting two walls of text for this kind of comment! Because there's nothing that I hate more than people going around: I'm obviously right so I'm not going to bother arguing.
First thing first: I'm making a modification to my list: we use the skullcannon and the herald goes on foot, we use a unit of 9 letters.
Just to begin with: I'm going to quote myself twice:
"Herald of Nurgle with ML2 and grotty the nurgling. Lesser and greater reward. Has icon of fertilence. "
And
"Sure you could get endurance, iron arm or some shennanigans. But if the daemons are like the CSM,"
Which means if they follow the CSM rules on psychic powers: you MUST roll on your god's table. Sorry if I mixed up rules.
I get what you are saying but I feel you're ignoring several points:
1) Warp speed isn't really useful on an herald: sure you'll get I8... unless you're charging through the ruins the khornates will have repositionated themselves to in the turn they had to prepare themselves (and seeing your list any general worth his chops will account for the drones charging). It only affects the psyker and the heralds is slow so it isn't actually useful. Almost the same goes for Iron Arm: you'll struggle to get into combat and there you'll find the herald disappoints: on warpspeed you're hampered by the "low" WS (you'll always be hitting on 4+, so your number of hits will be reduced drastically) and on iron arm it will be the low WS and low number of attacks hampering him and the toughness bonus won't be worth jackwad as your unit will be either T5/T4 mainly so you won't be harder to wound. IMO iron arm in the herald's case is mere deadweight as he already wounds on a 2+ and the ID treshold is achieved with his already possesed S6 (S5+1 from the weapon, because he's clearly getting the +1s weapon) most of the time. Biomancy is by and large meant to make a meelee beatstick but the heralds ain't material for it. Sure run him alone and then we will see what happens when everyone ignores him and he can't reach anything with his 6'' movement and no run from SnP.
2) A 1/3 chance of getting enfeeble is substancial but a bit unreliably, factor in that you have to sucessfully cast it and it not being denied (which, if you target a properly kited herald-anti-psyker which any khorne herald should be, will have it easier to deny than you cast the power with the collar and the AW granting relic)... yes I think I wouldn't hold my breath over it.
3) There's no double warpstorm, khorne daemonkin isn't affected by it.
4) "You're making plenty of assumptions"... uhm, hello? Your plan relies on a) the enemy not getting 1st turn, (as he'd have enough time to make two shots before you, plus make reliable charges on the nurglings), which is a 1/2 chance. b) once you make it to turn 2, the dice rolls don't bone you when rolling for reserves (89%, you need to fail the bearers and drones) nor positioning (on the bearers, l'd say 90%). THEN that the grimoire doesn't butfuck you (66% chance). At the astounding chance of 26,7% (possible but quite unlikely ) of times you'll have that tough unit on the enemy's mouth. This is not factoring the chances of getting enfeeble (as the others will be useless on the turn 2) which are 33%. Your plan has an 8.9 chance of success before even factoring the casting and DtW. There's a stronger chance of your drones and herald making it alone into the fight which means that, even if nurgle gets the initiative, we could just wipe out the enemy unit of nurglings with the crushers, secure 1st blood and one of the objectives (or maybe BOTH if we park the skullcannon in the right place), get the relic with the herald and letters and wait for you to come at us on turn 3 as you'll be bogged down to I1 and we will wither your damage output before you swing at us, and we don't care at all about casualties as the daemonkin are fearless.
I did a bit of it, truth is the match up ends quickly in the BA's favor once I got down to it in a more serious focus.
If we use the WWP plan the chances of the bikes being wiped out are far too high: realistically, the predator could gun them down with the heavy bolters and assault cannon in an above average round of firing (as we average 3.6 AC hits and 2.5 HB hits, which translate into 2.376 AC wounds and 1.66 HB wounds, statistically killing a bike or even two should they have a bit of poor luck, and the boltguns can finish the job should they operate statistically). With that tactic you're guaranteed to lose half the time, because the marine player will ensure his squad is close enough to bring a heavy flamer to bear (which will slaughter the Deldar) and there's a 1/3 of you failing the reserve roll so you may well get tabled on turn two. Alternatively you could deepstrike the archon's squad but I think it's pretty obvious how bad of an idea can it be considering the BAngels have a heavy flamer in their kit (which they should always take, range be damned)
If we don't use the WWP we are dependant on getting first turn or else the heavy bolters and assualt cannon can bone the raider, averaging 0.6 glances and 1.2 pens from the AC and 0.8 glances/pens from heavy bolters firing. The chances of it screwing over the raider are just too big for the DE player to opt not to jink and thus neuter his whole army's shooting power. From there onwards the Deldar force would be unable to do pheasible damage due to underperforming orks during shooting. If they get 1st turn they need to hit with the lance and then pen and then the predator fail a cover save (because we are clever and we decided to hide it or screen the squad, didn't we?). Literally 0.77 hits, we will only cause a pen a 26% of the time (damaging the tank a 39%) and that damage will be there to stay a 17,3% of the time, and we will blow it up a 3% of the time. Reallistically you're looking at the prior number: you need the predator out of the fire, as it can account for half the number of shots of the BAs. Deldar can win 17.3% of the time, and that's assuming nothing goes wrong like the HBs (whom can average 0.33 damage in that state) get above average rolls as well as the AC (whom can average 0.6 damage) doing that. And in truth it's actually lower as that 17,3% doesn't factorize BAs getting 1st turn, in which case they are utterly boned.
Either skitarii vs orks or tempestus vs nurgle forces, the latter being actually a quite close matchup while the other is an almost foregone conclusion on the skitarii's favor.
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