I want to start a thread to address the annoying parts of armies. These things would actually make me enjoy playing against top tier armies

Tau
-Make Vespid and Kroot viable. Cool models, but no competent Tau player every takes them
-Only allow supporting fire on LD checks. As it stands, it's too powerful against assault armies (what few are left)
-Remove supporting fire from vehicles. Even Eldar don't get this, why should Tau?
-Change markerlights to either +1 to BS or -1 to cover save for every markerlight. Alternatively, allow marker lights to be avoided with cover saves, as markerlights destroy any army that uses cover saves (DE, Orks, Tau)

Space Marines
-Get rid of Gladius. That's really my only hate for them, it's a stupid formation

Necrons
-Make Resurection Protocol function like FNP, where double toughness deny it, instead of making it -1.

Tyranids
-Make Gaunts more viable, so no more 5 Flyrant builds

Eldar
-Just nerf the whole book. Too many strong options, especially with Scatter Lasers, Wraithknights, D weapons, etc.

That won't nerf crons. Make reanimation for their last wound or make it an invuln.

Well, you made some glaring mistakes, especially with tau.

Vespid and kroot? Yea they suck. All know that.

Supporting fire on ld check? Ld checks to trigger your rules got phased out for a reason, it sucks and prevents meaningful tactical decisions. Also, supporting fire is hardly ever relevant, only in a handful of fringe cases it will save a squad, usually it just adds a bit of casualties or even does nothing.
Much like the hunter contingent, it looks insane on paper, but in actual game (or even with some simple math) it's easy to see just how little it does. Just like any other overwatch boost in the game (DA and renegades spring to mind)

Remove supporting fire off vehicles? They don't have it. It's a 10 point upgrade and even then only works for weapons of S5 or lower, an upgrade nobody ever takes because it's not worth the price.
Also, what does eldar have anything to do with this? Supporting fire is a tau only thing, until ravenwing stole it at least.

Markerlights is also a thing commonly said, you added nothing new.

You did however neglected the three real issues.
1-riptide's IA shouldn't have a non-nova blast
2-riptide wing should not exist .
3-broadside hymp too good.

(there are a few more buffs required to neglected units/options, but I won't list them all)




Gladius-its not the problem, the fact it granted razors is the problem, and the fact drop pods are extra durable for no good reason and somehow score.


Necron reanimation mechanic as a whole needs to return to the old style. It took longer and required a bit of bookkeeping, but was saner and allowed counterplay.

Nids-you are not even scratching the surface of what's wrong there. The entire codex needs to be put out of his misery and rewritten.

Eldar... Gotta agree, they have a whole list if "why on earth they got this special treatment" cases,

 jreilly89 wrote:
I want to start a thread to address the annoying parts of armies. These things would actually make me enjoy playing against top tier armies

Tau
-Make Vespid and Kroot viable. Cool models, but no competent Tau player every takes them
-Only allow supporting fire on LD checks. As it stands, it's too powerful against assault armies (what few are left)
-Remove supporting fire from vehicles. Even Eldar don't get this, why should Tau?
-Change markerlights to either +1 to BS or -1 to cover save for every markerlight. Alternatively, allow marker lights to be avoided with cover saves, as markerlights destroy any army that uses cover saves (DE, Orks, Tau)

But you're cool with riptides and stormsurges.

Noted.

Space Marines
-Get rid of Gladius. That's really my only hate for them, it's a stupid formation

You hate my 6 free rhinos and free ultramarine chapter tactics that much?

My ability to reroll to hit on my missile launchers ruining your day, man?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
That won't nerf crons. Make reanimation for their last wound or make it an invuln.

I think they should go back to how they (as far as I understand) used to do it.

Make them wait to roll re-animation until the end of the phase. That way, you can at least kill necron units by focus-firing them down to deny them the ability to roll RP.

I think it's more the gak-load of free Razorbacks and Drop Pods that ruin people's days.

 War Kitten wrote:
I think it's more the gak-load of free Razorbacks and Drop Pods that ruin people's days.

I completely agree. Gladius shouldn't confer free razorbacks for 5 man squads, nor should drop pods be a 35 point model.

But throwing out the gladius strike force wholesale?

The 6 free rhinos and free UM chapter tactics I use aren't ruining the game for anybody.

Depends on what you compare them to.

It comes down to what level you want to balance at. I've come to call Necron Decurion and after as "7.5", and the stuff before that "7.0".

Both seemed to be consistent levels of power. But I liked the "7.0" more, myself.

SM didn't need Gladius to play at that level. Their 6ed Dex was easily there.

Turn RP back to the old "lie them down and then roll at the end"

FNP and ressurection protocols shouldn't be an extra save on top of cover/armor/invul - it just makes things too durable.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what would fix the issue graciously - perhaps extra wounds (say, all Necron infantry go up to 2 wounds apiece?) and make FNP/Res count as a save, so you only get one roll instead of 2?

Also, I agree on the guants. It should be viable to run an entire army of lil' critters. Plus they need some anti-vehicle option - like, say, a swarm attack against vehicles (like army ants taking down larger prey by overwhelming it). Also, fix markerlight cheese - especially the "No cover" ability.

As a Tau player, I wouldn't miss Kroot and Vespids vanishing from the army at all. Personally, I play 1 riptide with burst cannon, so I haven't seen what multiple riptides can do - if its as bad as everyone says, then heck ya, hit 'em with the nerf bat.

I can't comment on Eldar - haven't played as them or battled them.

RP (and FnP) should go back to preventing the removal of the wound, nothing more. It should still count as aneeded Unsaved Wound.

Just drop the Decurion, and T5 3++ Wraiths are the only thing Necrons have beyond stock 7.0 power levels.

3 wound warriors? No thanks.

Make gaunts beasts.

 Traditio wrote:

That way, you can at least kill necron units by focus-firing them down to deny them the ability to roll RP.

That's still how you kill Necron units.

EnTyme wrote:That's still how you kill Necron units.

No.

Just...

No.

The above simply displays a complete failure to understand my point.

What I meant:

"I should only have to bypass 4+ armor and wipe the squad to prevent end of turn re-animations."

I fail to see how you can write the above, given my obvious intent.

 Traditio wrote:

EnTyme wrote:That's still how you kill Necron units.

No.

Just...

No.

The above simply displays a complete failure to understand my point.

What I meant:

"I should only have to bypass 4+ armor and wipe the squad to prevent end of turn re-animations."

I fail to see how you can write the above, given my obvious intent.

If you're using plasma, melta, or grav weapons, you only have to get through a single 4+ (5+ if your opponent isn't in a Decurion).

And your intent wasn't clear. All you said was you should be able to eliminate Necron units by focusing fire. Hence my comment that you can.

EnTyme wrote:If you're using plasma, melta, or grav weapons, you only have to get through a single 4+ (5+ if your opponent isn't in a Decurion).

Therefore Necrons aren't durable to OP levels.

Right.

I believe that we have nothing else to discuss.

Carry on.

Is a 5+ RP as is really that unfun?

They pay a few points less for a Marine (same survivability, usually same firepower), but lose out on all the goodies (weapon upgrades, CT, ATSKNF, Grenades, CC).

Outside a Decurion, seems fair to me.

Bharring wrote:
Is a 5+ RP as is really that unfun?

"Is an army wide 5+ feel no pain that can't be negated by instant death and can be brought to a 4+ feel no pain (possibly rerolling 1s) if you bring the units that you were probably going to bring anyway really all that unfair?"

Yes. Yes it is.

They pay a few points less for a Marine (same survivability, usually same firepower), but lose out on all the goodies (weapon upgrades, CT, ATSKNF, Grenades, CC).

Outside a Decurion, seems fair to me.

I think that the Necrons are criminally undercosted.

A necron warrior is a 13 point model with:

Essentially a marine statline (except I2 instead of 4 and LD 10 instead of 8...so they're actually better than marines in terms of their statline).

A gun that's basically a bolter that auto-wounds/glances on 6s (because why the feth not?).

A non-negatable FNP.

A 4+ armor save instead of a 3+.

Not that it matters, though. Did I mention the non-negatable FNP?

Immortals only cost 17 ppm and get a 3+ save.

So not only are you not removing models, but even if you do remove models, it doesn't even matter, because their leadership is so high that there's no real chance of them falling back or being swept in close combat.

And when you add the decurion, that's a 4+ non-negatable FNP that might be rerolling 1s, depending on what you bring.

A 4+ with a 5+ RP is the same as a 3+ for anything AP5+ - any small arms.

It's worse for anything AP4 by *double*.

It's better for ap3 and better, by 1/3 or 1/6 (depending on ID).

That's a fairly even tradeoff.

As for LD, sure, they're better if you roll a 9 or 10, but much, much worse if you roll an 11 or 12. When it comes to LD, almost nothing beats ATSKNF. Even Fearless is situational.

Don't try to outshoot them toe to toe with Marines. That's what Necrons do. Not Marines.

For 1 point difference, that doesn't seem so bad.

If you want a non-negotiable save, try Demons. They always get a 5++.

RP is good, but without Decurion, what armies are having trouble with them?

BA have trouble with any Necrons. But we can't shoot or assault so go figure.

I'll take the Necron warrior any day of the week because AP 4 is actively avoided (because it sucks!) and getting saves vs AP 3/2/1 weapons is great because they are frequently low ROF.

"Don't try to outshoot them toe to toe with Marines. That's what Necrons do. Not Marines. "

Marines can't beat them in CC, either. Funny that.

Marines can beat them in CC.

I meant don't line up naked Tacs and expect to outshoot them point for point. They're close, but naked Tacs aren't theven best way to field them. These aren't Eldar infantry. Don't treat them as such.

Bharring wrote:
Marines can beat them in CC.

I meant don't line up naked Tacs and expect to outshoot them point for point. They're close, but naked Tacs aren't theven best way to field them. These aren't Eldar infantry. Don't treat them as such.

Please describe the marine units that can beat them in CC. You won't list any, but you WILL list things that aren't marines. Like TWC. Assault squads and tac squads don't really have a chance. Against really anything anymore. Guardsmen? Firewarriors? Okay.

The best way to field tacs is to not field them. Or in free transports if you must.

Run some numbers. Point for point, even a naked Tacs squad wins in CC. ASM do it better. AND that's Vanilla. BA have FC.

But you're BA. Ever podded in a Heavy Flamer on Necron Warriors? Those wound on 3s and only get their 5+ RP.

It may not frequently work out that way when you hold your ground and consider your Tacs garbage while facing a Decurion. But you're not as hosed as you think you are.

Bharring wrote:
Run some numbers. Point for point, even a naked Tacs squad wins in CC. ASM do it better. AND that's Vanilla. BA have FC.

But you're BA. Ever podded in a Heavy Flamer on Necron Warriors? Those wound on 3s and only get their 5+ RP.

It may not frequently work out that way when you hold your ground and consider your Tacs garbage while facing a Decurion. But you're not as hosed as you think you are.

I'm pretty fething hosed. Necrons don't care about my assault squads, they don't care about FC. They don't care about heavy flamers, because I shoot them once and then get crushed in return. I have not a single efficient way to engage them.

Bharring wrote:
Run some numbers. Point for point, even a naked Tacs squad wins in CC. ASM do it better. AND that's Vanilla. BA have FC.

Necron vs. Marines: 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 = 1/12. Every 12 swings from a necron warrior will kill a marine.

Marines vs. Necrons: 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 2/3 = 2/24 = 1/12. Every 12 swings from a marine will kill a necron warrior.

Marines vs. Necrons w/ decurion: 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 = 1/16. Every 16 swings from a marine will kill a necron warrior with a 4+ RP.

The only sense in which marines are better in CC than necron warriors is because they hit first. But when faced with a 4+ armor save and a 4+ (possibly rerollable) RP, what does it matter?

The marines aren't going to do enough damage to force the Necrons to fall back and sweep them, and even if they do, necrons are LD 10.

Necron warriors shouldn't be 13 ppm. They should be as expensive as, if not more expensive than, marines.

Let's put that to the test.
7 Tacs with a HF and pod vs 10 Warriors.

Pod in. Place the best you can. Flame what, 4 guys?
(4)(2/3)(1)(2/3) is about 2 dead Necrons.
Krak grenade
(2/3)(1)(2/3) is half a dead Necron
Bolt guns is
5x2 (2/3)(1/2)(2/3) is about 2 dead necrons.

5.5 remaining necrons shoot back. They kill about 2 Marines.
HF + Krak kill another 2.5.

You could assault now if you want (5 Marines vs 3 Necrons), leading with bolt pistols. You both hit on 4s and save 2/3s of wounds. You hit first, and wound on 3s. And get +1A for assaulting. You'd win even if outnumbered.

This very much goes the BA way

There are problems, but BA can handle regular Warriors.

I never use HF in pods, though, because they are immobile and therefore dead after dropping.

It's not unit vs unit in practice it's army vs army. The necrons are supporting each other with shooting while the hapless BA are limited by how many things we can cram into pods in your scenario.

Trad,
I'm not saying the Decurion is fair.

Also, hitting first really does matter a lot.

Finally, CT matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So you never use the stuff that can beat Necron Warriors, because your Dex has better stuff. But nothing that can touch Necron Warriors?

Martel732 wrote:

Please describe the marine units that can beat them in CC. You won't list any, but you WILL list things that aren't marines. Like TWC. Assault squads and tac squads don't really have a chance.

Uh, not really sure about your reasoning here. Given the choice between shooting at Necron Warriors with Tac Marines and charging, you're pretty much always better off charging. Warriors lack anything to help them in melee, or even the option to take anything. Am I missing something here? Or am I the only one that actually gives his sergeant a power weapon still?

Bharring wrote:
Trad,
I'm not saying the Decurion is fair.

Also, hitting first really does matter a lot.

Finally, CT matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So you never use the stuff that can beat Necron Warriors, because your Dex has better stuff. But nothing that can touch Necron Warriors?

No, it's not better necessarily. It just doesn't automatically lose maelstrom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aben Zin wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Please describe the marine units that can beat them in CC. You won't list any, but you WILL list things that aren't marines. Like TWC. Assault squads and tac squads don't really have a chance.

Uh, not really sure about your reasoning here. Given the choice between shooting at Necron Warriors with Tac Marines and charging, you're pretty much always better off charging. Warriors lack anything to help them in melee, or even the option to take anything. Am I missing something here?

You're missing the fact that base marines are terrible at CC. Including assault marines. Even BA ones. With a priest. We pay a lot of points to fail at CC.

Bharring wrote:
Also, hitting first really does matter a lot.

Given the fact that nobody is likely to damage anybody, it really doesn't. Statistically speaking, if I charge a necron warrior squad with a 5 man squad of marines, I would be lucky even to kill a single warrior (without the decurion bonus). It doesn't matter if the Necrons strike first and kill practically nobody, if the marines strike first and kill practically nobody, or if both strike at the same time and kill practically nobody.

The fact remains that practically nothing happens.

And even if the odds are in my favor and I kill one, the fact remains that they have LD 10. They aren't getting swept.

Finally, CT matters.

My ability to reroll 1s to hit on bolt weaponry and reroll failed pens vs. buildings and vehicles with my devastators aren't going to help me kill necron warriors in close combat.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Make reanimation for their last wound .

I've often thought this would make a lot of sense. It honestly wouldn't be that much of a nerf, as it would only really affect over/lords and occasionally wraiths. But it should be a chance to reassemble after death, not straight FNP.

Being great at CC doesn't mean being better than TWO. It just means being better than the poor sod in charge range.

Would you really not charge equal numbers of Tacs into equal numbers of Necron Warriors?

Bharring wrote:
Being great at CC doesn't mean being better than TWO. It just means being better than the poor sod in charge range.

Would you really not charge equal numbers of Tacs into equal numbers of Necron Warriors?

No. Again, statistically speaking, what's going to happen is that both squads are just going to negate each other the whole game. Nothing will happen. Except I'll have spent 10 more points than you for nothing to happen.

Bharring wrote:
Being great at CC doesn't mean being better than TWO. It just means being better than the poor sod in charge range.

Would you really not charge equal numbers of Tacs into equal numbers of Necron Warriors?

I don't know what I'd do. It depends on what else is around, really.

Fact is, necron warriors outshoot naked tacticals, they are as durable as, if not more durable than, naked tacticals and they match them in close combat.

But pay 1 ppm less.

Not fair. Not in the least.

 Traditio wrote:
Fact is, necron warriors outshoot naked tacticals, they out-endure naked tacticals and they match them in close combat.

But pay 1 ppm less.

Not fair. Not in the least.

And they threaten every vehicle in the game. Even super heavies. They are the corollary to Eldar infantry threatening every MC in the game. Because GMCs are immune to poison, but not rending.

Just take a power axe on your sergeant? Either way it means that if they're in CC they can't threaten any vehicle in the game...

A Marine on the charge kills:
2x(1/2)(1/2)(1/2)(2/3) Warriors. That's 1/6.

With 3 Marines in CC, your EV is half a Necron. Their EV is a quarter a Marine (less after losing half a guy).

If you didn't have ATSKNF, that still gives you a chance at combat res win. With ATSKNF, you don't care if you lose CC. Eventually they will, and breaking means probably wiped unit. Can't happen to you.

As for differential, there are 14 Warriors for every 13 Marines. But over 2 Warriors die before striking back. So they more than make up their point differential by striking first.

 Aben Zin wrote:
Just take a power axe on your sergeant?

That violates my fodder maximization policies. When 75% of your list dies before assault, you can't afford such luxuries.

If Necron Warriors were such a big deal, we'd see a lot more attention payed to AP4.

Martel732 wrote:And they threaten every vehicle in the game. Even super heavies. They are the corollary to Eldar infantry threatening every MC in the game. Because GMCs are immune to poison, but not rending.

I know, right? Good thing I get those free rhinos that necron warriors can glance to death even though they're shooting at front AV.

Bharring wrote:
If Necron Warriors were such a big deal, we'd see a lot more attention payed to AP4.

They are a big deal because AP 4 sucks against the field. Plus, even with AP 4, they are still getting cover AND FNP+. AP 4 knocks 4+ armor down to 5+ cover. That's never worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:And they threaten every vehicle in the game. Even super heavies. They are the corollary to Eldar infantry threatening every MC in the game. Because GMCs are immune to poison, but not rending.

I know, right? Good thing I get those free rhinos that necron warriors can glance to death even though they're shooting at front AV.

BA bend over and take the gauss up the ass.

Bharring wrote:
If Necron Warriors were such a big deal, we'd see a lot more attention payed to AP4.

Why in the bloody feth would Eldar and Tau, e.g., need AP 4? AP doesn't matter when you are rolling an entire bucket of dice.

I can't game against Necron warriors because I have to game against scatterbikes, which are 3+ for some ungodly reason. Scatterbikes kill me NOW. Warriors are a bit slower and kill me turn 4-5 ish. Either way, it's more humiliation for the boys in red.

Maybe my Marines just need to face more non-Decurion Necrons, then. I haven't seen this problem.

If I pay for a dread or any tank, those are points I just threw away. And remember, I don't know I'm facing Necrons. That's why I can't use Furioso spam even if I wanted to.

At least Orks can drown them in bodies.
At least CSM have units that are EVEN tougher and a really good anti-Necron flyer.

Necrons are bad news for BA tac lists.

Remove Gladius free transports and Imperial Knights as allies. Gladius is just completely unfair and OP and I get sick of everyone bringing in a Knight for easy wins whenever I see them. Even worse killing them hurts me as much as it hurts them if not more.

Most Marine tactics involve something that the Necrons hold a natural check for and in the case of a tournament are going to take because they'd be fools not to.

Deep Strike assaults to get in the opponent's face early - The Drop Pod(s) arrive first turn, land, open doors and usually whatever comes out fires then hunkers down to weather the return fire. Except if you're facing Necrons those Deathmarks are going to arrive as soon as the Drop Pod touches down and shoot before whatever came out of the pod. That Dreadnought? Gone. Your Tactical Squad? Gone. Heavy Weapons with a Terminator and Storm Shield babysitter? Might as well have not bothered with the babysitter because they're gone. Wolves running Void Claws can be assured that at least three of those Termies will die before they get to shoot, what's that? They all have to be equipped with Wolf Claws and the only shooting they can get is one in five packing a Cyclone Missile Launcher? Guarantee he'll be one of the three gone.
Vehicles to move your marines up faster - A good number will be gunned down on the Necron's first turn by troops. More if your turn was first. On top of that they don't have to worry about keeping something alive to pop that big tank, just about anything in the Necron army can deal with AV14.
There just aren't many ways for Marine armies to stay balanced and tackle Necrons.

Personally I wouldn't have any complaints if Necrons actually died before their RPs kicked in. They can roll for all their wounds too, as long as they DIE FIRST!

OP:

While we're on the subject of unfun armies...

Ravenwing. They need to get rid of the rerollable jinks and the turn 1 "free" jink.

Tau's weaker units need buffs to make them more viable. So Kroot, Vespid, fliters, and HRR Broadsides. Maybe sniper drones.

Martel732 wrote:
AP 4 knocks 4+ armor down to 5+ cover. That's never worth it.

Can't you reduce that to 6+ wth an Auspex, or apply Ignores Cover through another method?

 Traditio wrote:
OP:

While we're on the subject of unfun armies...

Ravenwing. They need to get rid of the rerollable jinks and the turn 1 "free" jink.

Losing a turn of shooting is not free. What's wrong with rerollable jinks? There's nothing wrong with them or is your issue the Darkshroud.

pm713 wrote:Losing a turn of shooting is not free.

They don't have to fire snapshots on the following turn. That's what I meant by free.

What's wrong with rerollable jinks? There's nothing wrong with them or is your issue the Darkshroud.

What's wrong with a 3+ rerollable cover save (2+ rerollable with any modifers)? On a T5 model?

Is that what you're asking?

We're talking Necron levels of stupidity. On bikes. Probably with grav guns.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ld checks to trigger your rules got phased out for a reason, it sucks and prevents meaningful tactical decisions.

The Battle Sisters never got that memo.

 MacPhail wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ld checks to trigger your rules got phased out for a reason, it sucks and prevents meaningful tactical decisions.

The Battle Sisters never got that memo.

Ditto for Imperial Guard.

The base Necron stats are fine for the most part, its that with Decurion slapped on top of it giving insane bonuses which causes issues. A detachment that gives the benefit of a cryptek to every unit in the army plus relentless and MTC for basically zero tax is insane. Free transports for space marines is nothing compared to having what is easily 50+ points of value for free and impossible to remove in every unit (a cryptek can be challenged out or sniped, can't snipe out the Decurion bonus). I have no idea what the point value for army wide MTC and Relentless is but in the realm of freebee stats that's really bonkers.

 Traditio wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ld checks to trigger your rules got phased out for a reason, it sucks and prevents meaningful tactical decisions.

The Battle Sisters never got that memo.

Ditto for Imperial Guard.

Niether are a great example of an up-to-date functional and fun army, are they?

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Losing a turn of shooting is not free.

They don't have to fire snapshots on the following turn. That's what I meant by free.

What's wrong with rerollable jinks? There's nothing wrong with them or is your issue the Darkshroud.

What's wrong with a 3+ rerollable cover save (2+ rerollable with any modifers)? On a T5 model?

Is that what you're asking?

We're talking Necron levels of stupidity. On bikes. Probably with grav guns.

And it isn't free at all.

No I'm asking whats wrong with a 4+ rerollable that removes almost all shooting power. That's the standard biker.

You're cherry picking Black Knights who cost more than a Terminator so yes I'd say a very good cover save is fair. Besides the whole cherry picking thing makes the conversation pointless it's like me saying all space marines should be nerfed because their basic gun is ap2.

Nerf the entire Eldar book... really? You may see the bias on the profile pic but that has to be most lazy Eldar 'fix' that's going.

Can't stop the 1/3 heavy weapons on bikes due to the kits now but removing relentless from bikes/ jetbikes, moving them to FA or even just a hefty points increase to the upgrades works

D weapons on Wraithguard are fine as is with the F&Q changes on GW's facebook (cannot deploy the D flamers in allied transports and if you jink, passengers are snap shooting for very short ranged and expensive units...)
D - Cannons are 24" range but could use the -1 on D table results

I'd say 350 points for a Suncannon armed Wraithknight is fine but the other knight variants really need to be 400+ points

Warp Spiders are more difficult, removing flickerjump outright might be a plan (would need to test this out, if they are still broken make them take dangerous terrain tests for every 6 inches moved using the Warp generator)

Remove the buffs from the aspect host and instead for every different squad add a unique special rule that applies to all models in the formation to discourage spam - for balance, if all units in the formation are destroyed you give your opponent a VP.

Buff Banshees (furious charge ffs!?)/ Wraithblades (2 wounds or more than 1 attack on a CC unit!?)/ Shining Spears (more than one attack maybe or giving them back hit and run?!) and Wraithlords (FNP or some method of actually deploying close the the enemy?) damn it.

Moving scatbikes to fa does nothing. Make SL 20 pt upgrade like an assault cannon. Maybe 25. It's a better weapon.

Martel732 wrote:
Moving scatbikes to fa does nothing. Make SL 20 pt upgrade like an assault cannon. Maybe 25. It's a better weapon.

That's a fair call

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ld checks to trigger your rules got phased out for a reason, it sucks and prevents meaningful tactical decisions.

The Battle Sisters never got that memo.

Ditto for Imperial Guard.

Niether are a great example of an up-to-date functional and fun army, are they?

And oddly enough one has not been updated properly since forever, the other was intentionally nerfed by the developers and neither are the rules writers favourite armies. So, Tau should have to take some form of check to multi-overwatch. How about an initiative check? After all, they are having to react suddenly to a rapidly developing and very brief situation.

How about nerfing grav cannon with amp? It is too good if you compare it to other heavy weapons.

No, other imperial heavy weapons are too poor.

I'm just throwing in my view on the OP's opinion of Space Marines - the Gladius is not a problem. I doubt you have a problem with being forced to take 3x Tactical Squads, a Chaplain/Captain, Devastator/Dev Cents squad and Assault Squad/Bikers, plus a random auxiliary. That isn't a problem, because I can take that in CAD, minus a rerolled ability. The Gladius isn't a problem.

The bonus of two Demi-Companies is a problem, and I'd rectify that issue by saying that "If a unit has bought all available men to have a full squad, it may purchase a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback for no cost."
This way, if you want a free transport for a unit, you need a full 10 man squad to get it, supporting the fluff aspect. It becomes only available at higher point levels, and discourages the spamming of min Tac squads (which I am personally against. That would go some way in validating the full company for fluff players, and not making it so appealing for those trying to break the system, so to speak.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm just throwing in my view on the OP's opinion of Space Marines - the Gladius is not a problem. I doubt you have a problem with being forced to take 3x Tactical Squads, a Chaplain/Captain, Devastator/Dev Cents squad and Assault Squad/Bikers, plus a random auxiliary. That isn't a problem, because I can take that in CAD, minus a rerolled ability. The Gladius isn't a problem.

The bonus of two Demi-Companies is a problem, and I'd rectify that issue by saying that "If a unit has bought all available men to have a full squad, it may purchase a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback for no cost."
This way, if you want a free transport for a unit, you need a full 10 man squad to get it, supporting the fluff aspect. It becomes only available at higher point levels, and discourages the spamming of min Tac squads (which I am personally against. That would go some way in validating the full company for fluff players, and not making it so appealing for those trying to break the system, so to speak.

That is way too much of a tax for free rhinos.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm just throwing in my view on the OP's opinion of Space Marines - the Gladius is not a problem. I doubt you have a problem with being forced to take 3x Tactical Squads, a Chaplain/Captain, Devastator/Dev Cents squad and Assault Squad/Bikers, plus a random auxiliary. That isn't a problem, because I can take that in CAD, minus a rerolled ability. The Gladius isn't a problem.

The bonus of two Demi-Companies is a problem, and I'd rectify that issue by saying that "If a unit has bought all available men to have a full squad, it may purchase a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback for no cost."
This way, if you want a free transport for a unit, you need a full 10 man squad to get it, supporting the fluff aspect. It becomes only available at higher point levels, and discourages the spamming of min Tac squads (which I am personally against. That would go some way in validating the full company for fluff players, and not making it so appealing for those trying to break the system, so to speak.

Full company fluff doesn't matter in a game of WK and Riptides. 5 men need a free transport just to survive. If anything, modify what gets obj secured.

Putting 10 men in an AV 11 transport is a good way to get 10 guys stranded turn 1. 10 ineffectual guys, at that since going to 10 only gets you a single heavy/special weapon.

Traditio wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm just throwing in my view on the OP's opinion of Space Marines - the Gladius is not a problem. I doubt you have a problem with being forced to take 3x Tactical Squads, a Chaplain/Captain, Devastator/Dev Cents squad and Assault Squad/Bikers, plus a random auxiliary. That isn't a problem, because I can take that in CAD, minus a rerolled ability. The Gladius isn't a problem.

The bonus of two Demi-Companies is a problem, and I'd rectify that issue by saying that "If a unit has bought all available men to have a full squad, it may purchase a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback for no cost."
This way, if you want a free transport for a unit, you need a full 10 man squad to get it, supporting the fluff aspect. It becomes only available at higher point levels, and discourages the spamming of min Tac squads (which I am personally against. That would go some way in validating the full company for fluff players, and not making it so appealing for those trying to break the system, so to speak.

That is way too much of a tax for free rhinos.

Do you NEED free units to function? And in which case, don't take free Rhinos/Razorbacks. Sorted. You can take effectively either buy your Rhino, or you can buy three bodies and a Rhino, and get two men for free. I like fluff, and the idea of 5 man Tactical squads does not appeal in the slightest. Take them if you want, but it's not strictly a full company. Only fluff companies get free troops.

Martel732 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm just throwing in my view on the OP's opinion of Space Marines - the Gladius is not a problem. I doubt you have a problem with being forced to take 3x Tactical Squads, a Chaplain/Captain, Devastator/Dev Cents squad and Assault Squad/Bikers, plus a random auxiliary. That isn't a problem, because I can take that in CAD, minus a rerolled ability. The Gladius isn't a problem.

The bonus of two Demi-Companies is a problem, and I'd rectify that issue by saying that "If a unit has bought all available men to have a full squad, it may purchase a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback for no cost."
This way, if you want a free transport for a unit, you need a full 10 man squad to get it, supporting the fluff aspect. It becomes only available at higher point levels, and discourages the spamming of min Tac squads (which I am personally against. That would go some way in validating the full company for fluff players, and not making it so appealing for those trying to break the system, so to speak.

Full company fluff doesn't matter in a game of WK and Riptides. 5 men need a free transport just to survive. If anything, modify what gets obj secured.

Putting 10 men in an AV 11 transport is a good way to get 10 guys stranded turn 1. 10 ineffectual guys, at that since going to 10 only gets you a single heavy/special weapon.

So fix Tactical Marines. Make them either cheaper (not my ideal strategy), better (leads to codex creep) or balance the game so that AP2/3 is rarer and power armour become decent again.
I don't care if my opponent wants to take WK and Riptides - what about games against Orks or CSM where they'd be helpless against my min squads?

Er, what? Putting 5 men in an AV11 transport will get them stranded turn 1. So why bother? Just take Scouts then.
Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy, and depending on how I combat squad, it might only invalidate 5.

"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

"so that AP2/3 is rare"

This isn't why tactical marines are bad. They are bad because they have no offense and wound spam is the name of the game, so even cover is worthless.

20 pts on a Bike, yes.

20 points on a Vyper or Falcon, no.

What if Spiders death spinners were S5, reroll successful pens. Would that help? Probably remove flicker jump *too*.

Hawks should only move 12".

DAS should go back to Counterstrike, not bs2 over watch.

Wraith guard, sans DE deployments, are fine. But they do feel like the shooty variants should be SnP

FD need to lose Assured Destruction.

It almost feels like CWE should just use the 6e Dex, except for Serpents.

Martel732 wrote:
"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

Agreed. So it needs to be brought in line to an average.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

Yup. And they will continue to be so until either the power creep is addressed or they are buffed in some way. I'd rather see the creep addressed personally.

"so that AP2/3 is rare"

This isn't why tactical marines are bad. They are bad because they have no offense and wound spam is the name of the game, so even cover is worthless.

So bring them in line with what is necessary to be useful. Nerf the durability of units so that they may harm them with more regularity, or increase their strength. I favour the former.

Bharring wrote:
20 pts on a Bike, yes.

20 points on a Vyper or Falcon, no.

What if Spiders death spinners were S5, reroll successful pens. Would that help? Probably remove flicker jump *too*.

Hawks should only move 12".

DAS should go back to Counterstrike, not bs2 over watch.

Wraith guard, sans DE deployments, are fine. But they do feel like the shooty variants should be SnP

FD need to lose Assured Destruction.

It almost feels like CWE should just use the 6e Dex, except for Serpents.

20 pts period. It's an incredible weapon. I don't understand why you can't understand this. It kills IKs for crying out loud. It kills light infantry. It kills heavy infantry. The only thing it doesn't kill is AV 13/14 and 2+ armor save MCs. And the D-cannons/bladestorm units kill those.

At this point, you can have the serpents back. Their firepower is tame compared to scatterbikes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

Agreed. So it needs to be brought in line to an average.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

Yup. And they will continue to be so until either the power creep is addressed or they are buffed in some way. I'd rather see the creep addressed personally.

They just released the fething Wulfen. There is only one way power creep is going: up.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Losing a turn of shooting is not free.

What's wrong with a 3+ rerollable cover save (2+ rerollable with any modifers)? On a T5 model?

Is that what you're asking?

We're talking Necron levels of stupidity. On bikes. Probably with grav guns.

Okay, let's break it down.

Base Ravenwing Bike Squadron has a 4+ rerollable Jink. Points-wise, they cost a little more than a standard SM Bike Squadron.

To get it to 3+, you either need to have the unit within 6" of a Dark Shroud, or join Sammael to the unit. The Dark Shroud costs 2 Terminators, and has almost no offensive capability at all. Sammael costs 5 Terminators, and isn't bad, but he's not super-killy. You could easily make a more killy bike Captain with Codex: Space Marines. Getting them down to a 2+ rerollable Jink requires both the Dark Shroud and Sammael. So, you've made a 6 Terminator investment in making one unit extremely hard to kill with shooting. They're not terribly hard to kill in close combat with any reasonably competent assault unit. You're just not likely to bog them down in an extended combat because they have Hit & Run, so tarpit tactics won't work.

Now, Ravenwing Knights have an inherent 3+ rerollable cover save, but you pay Terminator cost per model. Mind you, you get the value you ought to get from a Terminator but don't. It can be boosted to a 2+ rerollable Jink via proximity to the Dark Shroud, but adding Sammael to the unit does nothing for the Jink save. For the points, you'd be better off adding an Interrogator Chaplain with a bike and the Mace of Redemption.

The key to reducing the Ravenwing Jink is to pop the Dark Shroud. Doing that with shooting is not easy, because it's got a 2+ rerollable Jink all on its own, and with its minuscule firepower there's no reason not to Jink with it. However, it does have to stay close to the units it's supporting, which affords other avenues of attack. One of my regular opponents has hit upon the idea of ramming it. Jink does diddly against rams. Plus, like with most vehicles, it doesn't like being assaulted.

I also don't feel too terribly bad about the Ravenwing rerollable Jink because there are so many effects in the game that simply deny cover entirely, which also deny the Jink save.

Martel732 wrote:Moving scatbikes to fa does nothing. Make SL 20 pt upgrade like an assault cannon. Maybe 25. It's a better weapon.

Actually,, moving Scatbikes to FA does a lot. It puts them in direct competition with Warp Spiders for those slots.

Draco wrote:How about nerfing grav cannon with amp? It is too good if you compare it to other heavy weapons.

They grav cannon is also by far the most expensive heavy weapon upgrade of the lot. The other weapons cost in the 10-20pt range. The Grav cannon costs almost as much as a Terminator, and it drops off in usefulness against lower-save units.

I'm actually a little disappointed with this thread. When I read the title, I thought it meant how can we, as players, make our armies more fun to face within the rules, not how should we change our armies (or other people's, as it's currently shaping up to be).

Perhaps we're on different pages. I don't think upgrading from a Shuriken Cannon (HB equivelent) to a SL should be 20 points. Most CWE platforms price it as an upgrade from a SC. Much like upgrading to a Lascannon equivelent (brightlance) shouldn't be +20 points.

"Actually,, moving Scatbikes to FA does a lot. It puts them in direct competition with Warp Spiders for those slots. "

Unbound is a thing. It's worth it to just table every opponent.

6th ed Eldar Codex was fine except for the WS nonsense. Honestly, the "shieldgun" thing could be removed entirely, and the dex would be fine. It's a shame honestly. It was a cool codex, but the serpent spam was so good that it entirely overshadowed everything else except the wraithknight - which needs to cost more. Ranged D on that durable and mobile of a platform should cost more than an IK. Hands down.

Bharring wrote:
Perhaps we're on different pages. I don't think upgrading from a Shuriken Cannon (HB equivelent) to a SL should be 20 points. Most CWE platforms price it as an upgrade from a SC. Much like upgrading to a Lascannon equivelent (brightlance) shouldn't be +20 points.

It should be 20 pts over the shuriken catapult. If the base is a shuriken cannon, then the base price of the bike needs to be raised a LOT and the upgrade remain 10 pts. The final price of a scatterbike should be at least 30 pts.

I'm glad they made the WK a GMC. But they should have adjusted the cost appropriately.

There are some other minor changes I like (Spiders wounding on I). But mostly it's a worse book.

Bharring wrote:
I'm glad they made the WK a GMC. But they should have adjusted the cost appropriately.

There are some other minor changes I like (Spiders wounding on I). But mostly it's a worse book.

Plus they eliminated my mantle of the laughing god JUST as I finished converting up my super cool solitaire/autarch...

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:]Okay, let's break it down.

Base Ravenwing Bike Squadron has a 4+ rerollable Jink. Points-wise, they cost a little more than a standard SM Bike Squadron.

To get it to 3+, you either need to have the unit within 6" of a Dark Shroud, or join Sammael to the unit. The Dark Shroud costs 2 Terminators, and has almost no offensive capability at all. Sammael costs 5 Terminators, and isn't bad, but he's not super-killy. You could easily make a more killy bike Captain with Codex: Space Marines. Getting them down to a 2+ rerollable Jink requires both the Dark Shroud and Sammael. So, you've made a 6 Terminator investment in making one unit extremely hard to kill with shooting. They're not terribly hard to kill in close combat with any reasonably competent assault unit. You're just not likely to bog them down in an extended combat because they have Hit & Run, so tarpit tactics won't work.

Now, Ravenwing Knights have an inherent 3+ rerollable cover save, but you pay Terminator cost per model. Mind you, you get the value you ought to get from a Terminator but don't. It can be boosted to a 2+ rerollable Jink via proximity to the Dark Shroud, but adding Sammael to the unit does nothing for the Jink save. For the points, you'd be better off adding an Interrogator Chaplain with a bike and the Mace of Redemption.

The key to reducing the Ravenwing Jink is to pop the Dark Shroud. Doing that with shooting is not easy, because it's got a 2+ rerollable Jink all on its own, and with its minuscule firepower there's no reason not to Jink with it. However, it does have to stay close to the units it's supporting, which affords other avenues of attack. One of my regular opponents has hit upon the idea of ramming it. Jink does diddly against rams. Plus, like with most vehicles, it doesn't like being assaulted.

I also don't feel too terribly bad about the Ravenwing rerollable Jink because there are so many effects in the game that simply deny cover entirely, which also deny the Jink save.

What this amounts to is that you still have an entire army of things that are extremely difficult to hit and very difficult to assault (because nothing in the army moves less than 12 inches in the movement phase...plus overwatch shenanigans).

Sorry, but I don't want to play against an entire army full of things that refuse to die. I don't care if it cost you 10 points or 200 points. If it's virtually impossible to kill it, it's no fun playing against it. And if your whole army is like that, I'm not going to play against you. It's really that simple.

I'd sooner play against Tau than against Ravenwing.

You make the point about the ubiquity of ignore cover, but where is that in the Vanilla Space Marines codex? The most reliable ignore cover in my army is dragonfire sternguard ammunition, and that's wounding your bikes on 5s, and you still get 3+ armor saves.

I suppose I could try to hit your bikes with flamers. But again, that's wounding on 5s, and you still get 3+ armor saves.

No thanks.

Only way I'd play against Ravenwing is if the ravenwing player is running either a CAD or going unbound.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Perhaps we're on different pages. I don't think upgrading from a Shuriken Cannon (HB equivelent) to a SL should be 20 points. Most CWE platforms price it as an upgrade from a SC. Much like upgrading to a Lascannon equivelent (brightlance) shouldn't be +20 points.

It should be 20 pts over the shuriken catapult. If the base is a shuriken cannon, then the base price of the bike needs to be raised a LOT and the upgrade remain 10 pts. The final price of a scatterbike should be at least 30 pts.

The fair price of a scatter bike is somewhere around 30-35 points. The base windrider bike is roughly equivalent, perhaps slightly inferior, to a space marine bike (which is itself undercosted): the base windrider bike has worse durability and damage, but much better movement. Add 10 points for the scatter lasers (roughly equal to a heavy bolter).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Do you NEED free units to function?

After purchasing the captain and chaplain that I didn't want to get the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics? Yes. I need those free rhinos.

And in which case, don't take free Rhinos/Razorbacks. Sorted. You can take effectively either buy your Rhino, or you can buy three bodies and a Rhino, and get two men for free. I like fluff, and the idea of 5 man Tactical squads does not appeal in the slightest. Take them if you want, but it's not strictly a full company. Only fluff companies get free troops.

Let your appreciation for the fluff be what it may; the fact remains that, as a game mechanic, requiring 10 man squads is too much of a tax for a rhino, especially in comparison to other codices, other army builds, etc. and their general power levels.

Martel732 wrote:"Actually,, moving Scatbikes to FA does a lot. It puts them in direct competition with Warp Spiders for those slots. "

Unbound is a thing. It's worth it to just table every opponent.

Is there a major tournament that allows Unbound lists? Are there even that many people who play Unbound?

Traditio wrote:

What this amounts to is that you still have an entire army of things that are extremely difficult to hit and very difficult to assault (because nothing in the army moves less than 12 inches in the movement phase...plus overwatch shenanigans).

The other thing about Ravenwing is that most of their firepower is short-ranged. The longest-ranged stuff that can be carried on a bike is 24", and the plasma talons the Ravenwing Knights have are 18" Rapid Fire, so they want to be within 9". So, they have to get within reasonable charging range to shoot at your stuff, particularly if they want to shoot to full effect. Other than Ravenwing Knights, Bikes are weak in assault, being a little harder to wound, but having significantly less attacks-per-points than even Tactical Marines. Grim Resolve's improved Overwatch is a thing, but I've found it usually only inflicts 1 more casualty from Overwatch than would otherwise be the case. Sure, the rerollable Jink can be annoying, but there's ways around it. It's not the rerollable 2++ other armies can get by a long shot.

Traditio wrote:You make the point about the ubiquity of ignore cover, but where is that in the Vanilla Space Marines codex?

Whirlwinds. Vindicator squadron. Divination - if I remember right, it's not a discipline most SM Librarians can get, but Tigurius can get it, can't he? Plus, doesn't the Thunderfire Cannon have a fire mode that ignores cover saves? I've never used one myself, because Dark Angels don't get it for reasons.

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:The other thing about Ravenwing is that most of their firepower is short-ranged. The longest-ranged stuff that can be carried on a bike is 24", and the plasma talons the Ravenwing Knights have are 18" Rapid Fire, so they want to be within 9". So, they have to get within reasonable charging range to shoot at your stuff, particularly if they want to shoot to full effect. Other than Ravenwing Knights, Bikes are weak in assault, being a little harder to wound, but having significantly less attacks-per-points than even Tactical Marines. Grim Resolve's improved Overwatch is a thing, but I've found it usually only inflicts 1 more casualty from Overwatch than would otherwise be the case. Sure, the rerollable Jink can be annoying, but there's ways around it. It's not the rerollable 2++ other armies can get by a long shot.

This is standard apologetics procedure for people who defend their OP bull gak. "Yes, yes, it's totally awesome in these respects...but it's not good in these other respects! Sure, sure, the wraithknight is T8, has 6 wounds, and doesn't even cost 300 points...but it's not immune to psychic shriek, and poison can still technically hurt it on 6s! So a 295 wraithknight isn't that bad, right? It's not like I have an all powerful model. It's still kind-of, sort-of vulnerable."

"Yes, sure, the grav cannon has very good damage output...but it only has a 24 inch maximum range!"

There is absolutely nothing that you can reasonably tell me which will justify an army-wide 2+, 3+ or 4+ rerollable save. There's nothing fun about playing against it. It is an exercise in futility. No thanks.

Feth ravenwing. Feth decurion Necrons.

The easiest way to do this is simply to game with a small group of gamers who agree (gentleman's agreement) to not take crappy spam lists.

Another easy way is to create a campaign system or recruitment system (tables, slots etc.) to generate armies which aren't win-at-all-cost lists.

While some units may be crap according to their codex/stat-lines...they're normally crap "for the points" and thus aren't taken in tournament style "all comers" lists.

Any group of gamers can adjust 40K as they please to suit them. This version or earlier versions. Unfortunately the very attraction of 40K is often tournaments or the ease of pick-up games at local game-stores...something you can't really affect without changes from up on high. You can't show up "hey let's do lists but don't use the following units...". You'd be laughed out of the store at some places.

Absolutely nothing stopping players from having a simple conversation on what is cheese/spam/crap, and what isn't...agree to make more flavorful lists. Another way to encourage a change to army lists is to develop your own scenarios which benefit different lists and aren't always subject to tabling your opponent = winning.

 Traditio wrote:


This is standard apologetics procedure for people who defend their OP bull gak. "Yes, yes, it's totally awesome in these respects...but it's not good in these other respects! Sure, sure, the wraithknight is T8, has 6 wounds, and doesn't even cost 300 points...but it's not immune to psychic shriek, and poison can still technically hurt it on 6s! So a 295 wraithknight isn't that bad, right? It's not like I have an all powerful model. It's still kind-of, sort-of vulnerable."

Or, it could be someone who plays the list and is more intimately familiar with it letting you know where the weak points to exploit are. If one doesn't really know how the mechanics of the force work, then it'd be easy to get sucked into engaging the things the RSF player wants you to engage in the way he wants you to engage them. If you dump all your firepower at the Ravenwing Knights within 6" of a Dark Shroud, then yeah, you're not going to accomplish much. If you concentrate on the more vulnerable units and engage the RSF on your terms instead of theirs, you'll do much better.

Another point to exploit would be that the Ravenwing Strike Force is going to be weak against Flyers, because they basically can't take any, because (fun fact) the Strike As One rule means a RSF with Flyers would be forced to stay in reserve until turn 2, the first turn the flyers can come in, which means they auto-lose turn 1. So, take some Flyers and watch the RSF not be able to do much about them.


Oh, Land Speeders with twin heavy flamers would probably be helpful. Cheap, fast, and should force enough wounds to cause some armor save failures.

If someone is playing a Ravenwing Strike Force against you, then you can feel free to hit them with a Skyhammer+Librarian Conclave with Tigurius+Vindicator Squadron. That ought to fix their little red wagon.

Ravenwing don't compare to the Wraithknight in terms of sheer obnoxiousness. The Wraithknight has a couple things it's not less vulnerable to than most units in the game - grav being chief among them. Ravenwing is weak vs a whole phase of the game, and unlike the Tau are going to come out and get close, which means one has a reasonable chance of engaging them in that phase. I'm not defending them so much as trying to let you know how to play against them. If you don't want to give it a try, that's on you, not on the army.

Tau make da very, very sad pandas. BA and orks are fethed, but that's par for the course.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


This is standard apologetics procedure for people who defend their OP bull gak. "Yes, yes, it's totally awesome in these respects...but it's not good in these other respects! Sure, sure, the wraithknight is T8, has 6 wounds, and doesn't even cost 300 points...but it's not immune to psychic shriek, and poison can still technically hurt it on 6s! So a 295 wraithknight isn't that bad, right? It's not like I have an all powerful model. It's still kind-of, sort-of vulnerable."

Or, it could be someone who plays the list and is more intimately familiar with it letting you know where the weak points to exploit are. If one doesn't really know how the mechanics of the force work, then it'd be easy to get sucked into engaging the things the RSF player wants you to engage in the way he wants you to engage them. If you dump all your firepower at the Ravenwing Knights within 6" of a Dark Shroud, then yeah, you're not going to accomplish much. If you concentrate on the more vulnerable units and engage the RSF on your terms instead of theirs, you'll do much better.

Another point to exploit would be that the Ravenwing Strike Force is going to be weak against Flyers, because they basically can't take any, because (fun fact) the Strike As One rule means a RSF with Flyers would be forced to stay in reserve until turn 2, the first turn the flyers can come in, which means they auto-lose turn 1. So, take some Flyers and watch the RSF not be able to do much about them.


Oh, Land Speeders with twin heavy flamers would probably be helpful. Cheap, fast, and should force enough wounds to cause some armor save failures.

If someone is playing a Ravenwing Strike Force against you, then you can feel free to hit them with a Skyhammer+Librarian Conclave with Tigurius+Vindicator Squadron. That ought to fix their little red wagon.

Ravenwing don't compare to the Wraithknight in terms of sheer obnoxiousness. The Wraithknight has a couple things it's not less vulnerable to than most units in the game - grav being chief among them. Ravenwing is weak vs a whole phase of the game, and unlike the Tau are going to come out and get close, which means one has a reasonable chance of engaging them in that phase. I'm not defending them so much as trying to let you know how to play against them. If you don't want to give it a try, that's on you, not on the army.

IoW:

"If you want to compete with Ravenwing Strikeforce, then you must drastically change your list."

No. I have a fething good way of beating Ravenwing strikeforce without doing that: refuse to play against it in the first place.

I run a crimson fists battle company with missile launchers, plasma cannons and lascannons. I couple this with Pedro and 20 sternguard whom I promptly put in rhinos on turn 1.

If my missile launchers, plasma cannons, lascannons and sternguard ammunition can't hurt your dudes, I'm out.

There are plenty of people who don't play that malarky.

You're so adorable acting like ravenwing strike force is a big deal.

Martel732 wrote:
You're so adorable acting like ravenwing strike force is a big deal.

You play BA. Do you have roughly a 50/50 shot against them?

 Traditio wrote:


IoW:

"If you want to compete with Ravenwing Strikeforce, then you must drastically change your list."

No. I have a fething good way of beating Ravenwing strikeforce without doing that: refuse to play against it in the first place. There are plenty of people who don't play that malarky.

One sad fact of 40K is that it tends to be very paper-rock-scissorsy. If you're not willing to change your list to meet different challenges, you're at a handicap.

That said, what's your list? I might be able to point out things you can do that you haven't considered.

This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You're so adorable acting like ravenwing strike force is a big deal.

You play BA. Do you have roughly a 50/50 shot against them?

Feth no. But a lot better chance than against scatterlaser death.

 War Kitten wrote:
This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

1. Whatever happened to list-tailoring being taboo?

2. It's symptomatic of a broken game if you have to list tailor.

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

1. Whatever happened to list-tailoring being taboo?

2. It's symptomatic of a broken game if you have to list tailor.

Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring". You're deliberately shooting yourself in the foot by refusing to change your list to take on what your opponent brings.

 War Kitten wrote:
Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring"

You are right. Changing your list based upon what your opponent takes is not "near" list tailoring.

It IS list tailoring.

 War Kitten wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

1. Whatever happened to list-tailoring being taboo?

2. It's symptomatic of a broken game if you have to list tailor.

Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring". You're deliberately shooting yourself in the foot by refusing to change your list to take on what your opponent brings.

I'm just going to ask:

Do you legitimately think that an army wide rerollable 2+, 3+ or 4+ cover save is anything but unfair and imbalanced?

Think about my poor lascannons!

 War Kitten wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

1. Whatever happened to list-tailoring being taboo?

2. It's symptomatic of a broken game if you have to list tailor.

Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring". You're deliberately shooting yourself in the foot by refusing to change your list to take on what your opponent brings.

I never get to do this. Remember, that if you can do it, they can do it. This is not a fix for unbalanced units. I for one am not telling you what I'm bringing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

1. Whatever happened to list-tailoring being taboo?

2. It's symptomatic of a broken game if you have to list tailor.

Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring". You're deliberately shooting yourself in the foot by refusing to change your list to take on what your opponent brings.

I'm just going to ask:

Do you legitimately think that an army wide rerollable 2+, 3+ or 4+ cover save is anything but unfair and imbalanced?

Think about my poor lascannons!

Lascannons are garbage. Quit using them.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring"

You are right. Changing your list based upon what your opponent takes is not "near" list tailoring.

It IS list tailoring.

Let's say I know my opponent is bringing Ravenwing. I'm going to bring something to counter that, to do anything else would be foolish. Now, seeing EXACTLY what my opponent has and bringing the best things to stomp him, THAT is list tailoring.

Everyone has their own views on what constitutes list tailoring, and that's mine.

 War Kitten wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring"

You are right. Changing your list based upon what your opponent takes is not "near" list tailoring.

It IS list tailoring.

Let's say I know my opponent is bringing Ravenwing. I'm going to bring something to counter that, to do anything else would be foolish. Now, seeing EXACTLY what my opponent has and bringing the best things to stomp him, THAT is list tailoring.

Everyone has their own views on what constitutes list tailoring, and that's mine.

What if you don't even know who you are playing?

" I'm going to bring something to counter that, "

That's list tailoring. Bring an agnostic list and see how much you enjoy DA.

Martel732 wrote:What if you don't even know who you are playing?

" I'm going to bring something to counter that, "

That's list tailoring. Bring an agnostic list and see how much you enjoy DA.

And what's crazy about it is that I actually have dedicated ignore cover in my army. It's just not effective against DA. My sternguard will wreck tyrranid Venomthropes. It will feth up their day seven ways from sunday.

T5 bikes with 3+ armor saves and rerollable jinks? Not so much.

Martel732 wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

1. Whatever happened to list-tailoring being taboo?

2. It's symptomatic of a broken game if you have to list tailor.

Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring". You're deliberately shooting yourself in the foot by refusing to change your list to take on what your opponent brings.

I never get to do this. Remember, that if you can do it, they can do it. This is not a fix for unbalanced units. I for one am not telling you what I'm bringing.

So you don't write you list as a take all comers? ie something for light vehicles , something for heavy vehicles , something for flyers something for horde , something for terms ect ( that is what they are talking about , not actual list tailoring ) Writing a list so you don't have short comings when something shows up is not list tailoring , its being a competent general. Those terms are not even in the same ballpark

kambien wrote:So you don't write you list as a take all comers? ie something for light vehicles , something for heavy vehicles , something for flyers something for horde , something for terms ect ( that is what they are talking about , not actual list tailoring ) Writing a list so you don't have short comings when something shows up is not list tailoring , its being a competent general. Those terms are not even in the same ballpark

Please write a SM list which will be equally good/effective against:

1. Ravenwing bike spam
2. Green Tide
3. An Imperial Guard tank company
4. Scatter bikes and wraithknights supported by seer councils.

Go on. I'll be waiting.

Yes, I do. And I even intentionally ignore flyers. But given that I'm BA, I can't shoot or assault well.

But I don't get the opportunity to even contemplate doing what he is describing.

Let's do the math.

IF Sternguard firing dragonfire ammunition at a ravenwing bike:

5/6 chance to hit X 1/3 chance to wound X 1/3 chance to bypass armor.

6 X 3 = 18. 18 X 3 = 54.

5/54.

I could rapidfire dragonfire with a 5 man squad and not even kill a single bike.

 Traditio wrote:

kambien wrote:So you don't write you list as a take all comers? ie something for light vehicles , something for heavy vehicles , something for flyers something for horde , something for terms ect ( that is what they are talking about , not actual list tailoring ) Writing a list so you don't have short comings when something shows up is not list tailoring , its being a competent general. Those terms are not even in the same ballpark

Please write a SM list which will be equally good/effective against:

1. Ravenwing bike spam
2. Green Tide
3. An Imperial Guard tank company
4. Scatter bikes and wraithknights supported by seer councils.

Go on. I'll be waiting.

Whats the point ?
With your various "oh whoa is me" posts and your troll polls and the fact you mock people for buying models there is no point in even trying to help you . If tactical marines can't kill a vehicle the guy with the vehicle is already TFG to you and you refuse to play him (never mind the fact you COULD bring something ot pop the vehilce but choose not to) . You refuse to alter you list in ANY WAY from the models you have . I mean really , this hobby is not for you , trade you models for like x wing or war machine and be done with it already. You want this alternate version of the game that no one but you and a very few people ( and i'm just giving you those very few people ) want to play.

Also i don't have a SM codex so i'm not going to write a list for

I can field almost any conceivable BA list. It ends up not mattering, though.

I am amused by all the necron warrior hate in this thread.

Give necrons any form of psyker support or meaningful allies and I would do a back flip if they only costed as much as a marine.

 Traditio wrote:

kambien wrote:So you don't write you list as a take all comers? ie something for light vehicles , something for heavy vehicles , something for flyers something for horde , something for terms ect ( that is what they are talking about , not actual list tailoring ) Writing a list so you don't have short comings when something shows up is not list tailoring , its being a competent general. Those terms are not even in the same ballpark

Please write a SM list which will be equally good/effective against:

1. Ravenwing bike spam
2. Green Tide
3. An Imperial Guard tank company
4. Scatter bikes and wraithknights supported by seer councils.

Go on. I'll be waiting.

Remove #2, Any army is good against the Green tide. Attack it on the two flanks and watch it spend the entire game consolidating into the two combats at S3

SemperMortis wrote:Remove #2, Any army is good against the Green tide. Attack it on the two flanks and watch it spend the entire game consolidating into the two combats at S3

grav spam?

Bigdoza wrote:
I am amused by all the necron warrior hate in this thread.

Give necrons any form of psyker support or meaningful allies and I would do a back flip if they only costed as much as a marine.

Try fighting them with BA. We have crap pskyers and allies don't count as BA being useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:Remove #2, Any army is good against the Green tide. Attack it on the two flanks and watch it spend the entire game consolidating into the two combats at S3

grav spam?

Ravenwing bikers will jink it all day.

 Traditio wrote:

I could rapidfire dragonfire with a 5 man squad and not even kill a single bike.

5 Sternguard are only about as much as 3 Terminators. They're not exactly the epitome of offense.

My offer stands. Tell me what you field, and I'll give you my best advice on how to use it to defeat Ravenwing.

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:5 Sternguard are only about as much as 3 Terminators. They're not exactly the epitome of offense.

My offer stands. Tell me what you field, and I'll give you my best advice on how to use it to defeat Ravenwing.

Check private messages.

Traditio, you are using vanilla marines?

Martel732 wrote:Ravenwing bikers will jink it all day.

I was referring to Green Tide.

Grav spam wouldn't really be effective vs. orks, would it?

Or ravenwing bikers, for that matter. Wounding on 3s and rerolling 2+ jink saves? No.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:Ravenwing bikers will jink it all day.

I was referring to Green Tide.

Grav spam wouldn't really be effective vs. orks, would it?

Or ravenwing bikers, for that matter. Wounding on 3s and rerolling 2+ jink saves? No.

You don't want to out right spam grav because daemons are a thing.

ITT: Those whom can't understand 'fun' versus 'fair.'

 Torus wrote:
Nerf the entire Eldar book... really? You may see the bias on the profile pic but that has to be most lazy Eldar 'fix' that's going.

Given the vast presence of IoM players and the abuses of Battle Brothers, the constant and unrelenting Eldar prejudice is plainly comical. We won't be able to argue out of that thick bias.

 Cieged wrote:
ITT: Those whom can't understand 'fun' versus 'fair.'

To my mind, grossly unfair things aren't fun. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 Cieged wrote:
ITT: Those whom can't understand 'fun' versus 'fair.'

 Torus wrote:
Nerf the entire Eldar book... really? You may see the bias on the profile pic but that has to be most lazy Eldar 'fix' that's going.

Given the vast presence of IoM players and the abuses of Battle Brothers, the constant and unrelenting Eldar prejudice is plainly comical. We won't be able to argue out of that thick bias.

The primary abuse, drop pods, has already been nerfed out of the game. The best you can do now is put priests in Wolfstars or some such thing. Gladius needs no allies to win by force of model count. There are precious few IoM combos that match scatterbike/warp spider/WK, if any at all.

BA got their draft errata and leaked starter set rules today.

Just FYI

Martel732 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

Agreed. So it needs to be brought in line to an average.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

Yup. And they will continue to be so until either the power creep is addressed or they are buffed in some way. I'd rather see the creep addressed personally.

They just released the fething Wulfen. There is only one way power creep is going: up.

And Death From the Skies. Which nerfed most flyers. Including your own Stormraven. Besides, if power creep is going up, fine. Make all sub-par things to the same standard. As long as there are no autotakes in a TAC setting, I will not complain.

I'm not speaking from a real world perspective, but from an ideological one. And I don't expect my view to have any basis. But I doubt most views in here will. I can still say it.

Traditio wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Do you NEED free units to function?

After purchasing the captain and chaplain that I didn't want to get the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics? Yes. I need those free rhinos.

So, really, I'm assuming those leaders are barebones (why wouldn't they be, if they you didn't want them?). Assuming they're barebones, then for all the transports it's possible to get (10, 12 with command squads) Razorbacks.
So, 12 x 40= 480.
Now, I don't know about you, but I'm fairly sure a barebones Chaplain AND Captain cost less than that. Regardless of if you wanted them, you've saved far more points doing this AND got two more squishy MEQ bodies. I fail to see the negative at all.

It's an obvious choice, and according to you, if you get a smile when thinking of an idea, DON'T. Everything should be nerfed if it's an autotake. According to you, at least.
Also, this further proves my point of UM, after BT, being untreated when every other Chapter can be UM+1 with the Gladius.

And in which case, don't take free Rhinos/Razorbacks. Sorted. You can take effectively either buy your Rhino, or you can buy three bodies and a Rhino, and get two men for free. I like fluff, and the idea of 5 man Tactical squads does not appeal in the slightest. Take them if you want, but it's not strictly a full company. Only fluff companies get free troops.

Let your appreciation for the fluff be what it may; the fact remains that, as a game mechanic, requiring 10 man squads is too much of a tax for a rhino, especially in comparison to other codices, other army builds, etc. and their general power levels.

So, hence my point - to bring marines to the same standard, or even better, bring all armies up or down to the same one. If all armies were on this level field, without free transports, would you still be opposed to my idea?

War Kitten wrote:This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

Yes, I've noticed.
But it's okay, because he, funnily enough, doesn't have to change his list.

With all the free transports their Gladius affords, why even bother shooting the enemy? You have that many ObSec transports, you can win by capping objectives. If it's a spectacle you're after, use full squads as per my suggestion. If you're not after a spectacle, or actually recognise that the idea is subjective, then continue to use your free transports which actually win games.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:Ravenwing bikers will jink it all day.

I was referring to Green Tide.

Grav spam wouldn't really be effective vs. orks, would it?

Or ravenwing bikers, for that matter. Wounding on 3s and rerolling 2+ jink saves? No.

Grav spam would still work against Green tide because as I said, if you attack it from 2 different points the orks spend the entire game consolidating in at I2 and S3. At most your going to face between 9-15 S3 attacks a turn in CC. Your SMs with S4 T4 and 3+ saves will be fine. I have had this happen to me twice, the only thing the other player has to worry about is the random nobz consolidating in.

Should there even be TAC in a wargame?

Shouldn't an all-Armor list dominate an open field, while an all-infantry list excels in close terrain like a ruined city?

My main complain so far is wizards. Wizards everywhere. Every game has wizards rolling around psy shreiking left and right and invizing everything.

 koooaei wrote:
My main complain so far is wizards. Wizards everywhere. Every game has wizards rolling around psy shreiking left and right and invizing everything.

I completely agree that invisibility is obnoxious.

That said, do you really find psychic shriek problematic? That's an "18" on the range part of the stat-line.

You don't want to get psychic shrieked? Then stay out of range.

This is only really problematic if the psyker is a flying MC.

I've recently play-tested a couple of games using Ahriman, and they were both pretty brutal because of my spam of psychic shriek...

...but only because my opponent insisted on putting stuff within 24-30 inches of Ahriman.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Should there even be TAC in a wargame?

Yes.

Because it's a game.

 Traditio wrote:
That said, do you really find psychic shriek problematic? That's an "18" on the range part of the stat-line.

You don't want to get psychic shrieked? Then stay out of range.

Ork guns are 18", so if we stay out of range, we do literally nothing the whole game. And at LD7 and no invul psychic shriek just murders us.

JimOnMars wrote:Ork guns are 18", so if we stay out of range, we do literally nothing the whole game. And at LD7 and no invul psychic shriek just murders us.

Have you tried orks in trukks and battle wagons? Psychic shriek can't target vehicles.

And it counts as a shooting attack. Once you tie up the psyker in close combat, he's done shrieking until he gets out.

Again, I really don't think the problem is psychic shriek.

The problem is flying monstrous creatures who are also psykers.

 Traditio wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:Ork guns are 18", so if we stay out of range, we do literally nothing the whole game. And at LD7 and no invul psychic shriek just murders us.

Have you tried orks in trukks and battle wagons? Psychic shriek can't target vehicles.

And it counts as a shooting attack. Once you tie up the psyker in close combat, he's done shrieking until he gets out.

Again, I really don't think the problem is psychic shriek.

The problem is flying monstrous creatures who are also psykers.

Haven't played a shrieker since I got 5 trukks. Will try that!

 Traditio wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:Ork guns are 18", so if we stay out of range, we do literally nothing the whole game. And at LD7 and no invul psychic shriek just murders us.

Have you tried orks in trukks and battle wagons? Psychic shriek can't target vehicles.

And it counts as a shooting attack. Once you tie up the psyker in close combat, he's done shrieking until he gets out.

Again, I really don't think the problem is psychic shriek.

The problem is flying monstrous creatures who are also psykers.

Let's take out the only thing keeping tyranids in tournaments out of the game!

No Traditio, the problem is that all MCs seem to have 3+ armor minimum, and all skyfire is AP 4.

Or perhaps they should bump down. TMC base prices and Jack up the Wings upgrade?

Bharring wrote:
Or perhaps they should bump down. TMC base prices and Jack up the Wings upgrade?

This would help as well. TMC cost going down would spell doom for the have-not codices, but at this point, who cares? The have-nots can lose to someone new.

Martel732 wrote:
No Traditio, the problem is that all MCs seem to have 3+ armor minimum, and all skyfire is AP 4.

Pretty sure the Nid FMC's that aren't flyrants have 4+.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No Traditio, the problem is that all MCs seem to have 3+ armor minimum, and all skyfire is AP 4.

Pretty sure the Nid FMC's that aren't flyrants have 4+.

I've never seen one of those. All flyrants. Always.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No Traditio, the problem is that all MCs seem to have 3+ armor minimum, and all skyfire is AP 4.

Pretty sure the Nid FMC's that aren't flyrants have 4+.

Hive crones apparently have a 4+ armor save. I did not know that.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:Ork guns are 18", so if we stay out of range, we do literally nothing the whole game. And at LD7 and no invul psychic shriek just murders us.

Have you tried orks in trukks and battle wagons? Psychic shriek can't target vehicles.

And it counts as a shooting attack. Once you tie up the psyker in close combat, he's done shrieking until he gets out.

Again, I really don't think the problem is psychic shriek.

The problem is flying monstrous creatures who are also psykers.

Let's take out the only thing keeping tyranids in tournaments out of the game!

Making nobs LD8 and fixing mob rule would be a better alternative...but that gives orks good thinks, and so can't be allowed.

But LD7 gives me hope that my Death Jester will break a unit some day!

Granted, statistically, he should do that fairly often. But the dice gods hate him.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:Ork guns are 18", so if we stay out of range, we do literally nothing the whole game. And at LD7 and no invul psychic shriek just murders us.

Have you tried orks in trukks and battle wagons? Psychic shriek can't target vehicles.

And it counts as a shooting attack. Once you tie up the psyker in close combat, he's done shrieking until he gets out.

Again, I really don't think the problem is psychic shriek.

The problem is flying monstrous creatures who are also psykers.

Let's take out the only thing keeping tyranids in tournaments out of the game!

Making nobs LD8 and fixing mob rule would be a better alternative...but that gives orks good thinks, and so can't be allowed.

That about sums it up, anything good must not be given to Orks.

Zzap Gunz: Would be good if not for the Random strength rolls and just had the gets hot rule
Bubble Gun: Just trash, utter trash get rid of it nobody would care
Kill Kannon: Add 12in to range and 1-2 strength and it would be worth taking.
PKs: Only 1 model in the entire Ork range swings at initiative with a Power Klaw or S8+ AP2 weapon, and he is a out of print FW model
MegaNobz: Pathetically one of our best units and in any other codex they would never be taken because they suck that bad.
TankBustas: OMG a unit of Orks armed with Rokkitz? SICK! Range 24 and the model can only have 6+ armor.
Lootas: Would be good if it wasn't for the Random shots, and the lack of ballistic skill, and hte lack of armor, and the lack of leadership
ALL ORK WALKERS: about 50% over priced and one of them have ANY DAKKA! we are the fething faction that invented the word DAKKA and we don't have any.
Boyz: Once were good, now are bad. I can't say anything about them except they didn't evolve with the times and instead of getting tougher to deal with the plethora of multi shot, high strength weapons they all got weaker with mob rule changes.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I could keep going but its just pathetic

The only unfun armies for me are mech imp guard, knights and SPESS MUREEN. Knights need to be forced into a low choice for an army and nothing more, mech guard need more toys so it's something other than a parking lot and SPESS MUREENZ need some damn flavour and need to spread the updates to the other races. Generic marines are so boring to play, ridiculous buffs and massive player base mean netlists for days,or slight variations.

Mech guard are not even that good. A couple of DS units will murder the lot, or at least buy time for the rest of the army to reach them.

And if you are playing Maelstrom (AKA: Schizophrenic random objective senseless killing method mode) then you can quite easily out-points them.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Mech guard are not even that good. A couple of DS units will murder the lot, or at least buy time for the rest of the army to reach them.

And if you are playing Maelstrom (AKA: Schizophrenic random objective senseless killing method mode) then you can quite easily out-points them.

didn't recall saying they were op, the thread is about unfun armies and shooting at an av14 wall isn't fun to me since most of my stuff can't touch it and limited DS.

Martel732 wrote:
"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

"so that AP2/3 is rare"

This isn't why tactical marines are bad. They are bad because they have no offense and wound spam is the name of the game, so even cover is worthless.

Tactical Marines need to be able to take double special weapons or heavy weapons. It gives a small amount of specialization.

It isn't that big a fix, but I think it helps a lot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

"so that AP2/3 is rare"

This isn't why tactical marines are bad. They are bad because they have no offense and wound spam is the name of the game, so even cover is worthless.

Tactical Marines need to be able to take double special weapons or heavy weapons. It gives a small amount of specialization.

It isn't that big a fix, but I think it helps a lot.

Sure. Grey Hunters can do this, but they still aren't used much in 7th. And they have counter attack. And a close combat weapon. Still not considered awesome. Because they just get shot.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

"so that AP2/3 is rare"

This isn't why tactical marines are bad. They are bad because they have no offense and wound spam is the name of the game, so even cover is worthless.

Tactical Marines need to be able to take double special weapons or heavy weapons. It gives a small amount of specialization.

It isn't that big a fix, but I think it helps a lot.

Sure. Grey Hunters can do this, but they still aren't used much in 7th. And they have counter attack. And a close combat weapon. Still not considered awesome. Because they just get shot.

Because everyone buys the close combat weapons that costs2 ppm.

The CCW options for both Grey Hunters and CSM's should be 1 point, just like with Carcharodons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The CCW options for both Grey Hunters and CSM's should be 1 point, just like with Carcharodons.

I cannot support this enough.