So with the great solid writing of age of sigmar, pretty boy slannesh got his/her butt kicked and de throned by the great horned rat. As a result the great horned rat took her/his place as a chaos God.

Since it has been proven and is accepted both fantasy and 40k are linked via the warp, does this now mean, technically, slannesh is also out of power in 40k as well and that the great horned rat is a God In 40k as well? Or is now canon malice?

Would at least be a good way to progress eldar lore.

Is it proven that they are the same universe?

Aside from the gods and daemons themselves being the same, there's no other reason to think that the Great Horned Rat is 40k canon now. AFAIK, the Great Horned Rat doesn't even exist in 40k canon.

It's been shown a few time that both realms are linked via the warp, in one instance a group of elves go into nurgals garden and two about how they saw a massive human clad in silver armor fighting off endless waves of demons, IE draigo. Or the skaven who stole an artifact from the lizard men which when they used it they basically prank called the eldar on accident.

From my understanding the great horned rat = Malal = malice (due to copy right) = may or may not exist. But since we know the warp connects the two universes...

Eh eh? Malal/ malice now canon?? Eehhhhhh!

How does Horned rat = Malal? One is a chaos god of rat people one is the self destructive nature of chaos.

They aren't linked. 40k still has Slaanesh therefore Slaanesh isn't gone therefore they either aren't linked or GW retconned that stupid rubbish.

The only know artwork of Malal depicts hm as a horned rat.

It would still be better then some of their writing

I'm not sure I get "rat" from this any more than I get "1980s high fantasy daemon".

And removing Slaanesh from 40K would muck up Emperor's Children, Fulgrim, Dark Eldar, Eldar and Emperor knows what else. So I'm gonna say no.

Whats the actual writing of the Eldar and Human in silver armour stuff anyway?

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I'm not sure I get "rat" from this any more than I get "1980s high fantasy daemon".

And removing Slaanesh from 40K would muck up Emperor's Children, Fulgrim, Dark Eldar, Eldar and Emperor knows what else. So I'm gonna say no.

Why would it muck them? They would become searchers of their god. Well except eldars who(both kind) would let out huge sigh of relief.

pm713 wrote:
Whats the actual writing of the Eldar and Human in silver armour stuff anyway?

Let me see if I can hunt down the book for where they see the draigo

tneva82 wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I'm not sure I get "rat" from this any more than I get "1980s high fantasy daemon".

And removing Slaanesh from 40K would muck up Emperor's Children, Fulgrim, Dark Eldar, Eldar and Emperor knows what else. So I'm gonna say no.

Why would it muck them? They would become searchers of their god. Well except eldars who(both kind) would let out huge sigh of relief.

It would completely remove the basic horror of Dark Eldar and take out what at least two Eldar groups are working towards. Because weaker, younger and dumber elves with less experience of Slaanesh did something that doesn't make sense.

pm713 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I'm not sure I get "rat" from this any more than I get "1980s high fantasy daemon".

And removing Slaanesh from 40K would muck up Emperor's Children, Fulgrim, Dark Eldar, Eldar and Emperor knows what else. So I'm gonna say no.

Why would it muck them? They would become searchers of their god. Well except eldars who(both kind) would let out huge sigh of relief.

It would completely remove the basic horror of Dark Eldar and take out what at least two Eldar groups are working towards. Because weaker, younger and dumber elves with less experience of Slaanesh did something that doesn't make sense.

Half of GW's writing does not make any sense I mean, again they green lit Matt ward so.

Here is the link, YES I know it's a 1d4chan but they do a good job and explaining it with a bit of humor to add.

Last entry, talked about how they find a knight who very strikingly sounds like draigo, implying both realms are linked via the warp.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo

Could also be a Stormcast or anything from the infinite realms of AOS.

pm713 wrote:
Could also be a Stormcast or anything from the infinite realms of AOS.

Hypothetically this is true, but is was said he was clad in silver armor, made a name for himself and shot blue explosions out of him.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Could also be a Stormcast or anything from the infinite realms of AOS.

Hypothetically this is true, but is was said he was clad in silver armor, made a name for himself and shot blue explosions out of him.

The first two of those can be literally any Stormcast in silver paint.

This is why authors should never do tongue in cheek nods to other franchises, because some people will instantly 1. Assume it as hard proof of a link between two franchises 2. Demand more crossover which inevitably is terrible (See Alien V Predator).

It's not proof of anything. It's one GW writer having a little bit of fun. It's the same thing in 40k with the lost Primarchs. Every mention of them, no matter how unreliable the narrator is (Chaos Daemons, Word Bearers) is taken by some as a definitive answer to what happened to them, no matter how many times BL editors and authors say that there is no definitive truth.

Why would anyone even want crossover? Can you imagine how ham fisted that would be story wise?

Plus the rumours were that the old world was in the 40k universe somewhere. The old world was destroyed aeons before Age of Sigmar. Plus the world in AOS isn't written like real planets, Sci Fi style, but literal different dimensions. It makes zero sense to combine the two. How could it possibly benefit anyone to find out that two franchises take place in the same universe?

The silver knight in Nurgles garden could be anything, Stormcast (yes there's silver ones, and they like lightning too which explains the blue), Draigo, a tongue in cheek reference to the Grey Knights without meaning anything more... I don't really call it proof.

I'm not sure if it is still "cannon" since AoS took over, but the Lizardmen books, Necron & Eldar codexes all mention the Old Ones. In the last Fantasy cannon, the Old Ones came to the warhammer world on space vessels, created the Lizardmen, Elves, Dwarves & Men and accidentally brought Orcs to the world because spores were on their space craft. This would co-incide nicely with the Old-Ones disappearance from the 40K universe after the War in Heaven.

I have always held that 40K and the Fantasy realm exist in the same universe, separated by the Warp. AoS has made my belief in that even stronger.
With Fantasy sales plummeting and AoS not doing as well as they hoped, I could easily see GW taking steps to "merge" their 2 games to mimic the success of Privateer Press's WarmaHordes

--

IIRC several people have stated that GW has confirmed that that is not true and in addition it makes no sense. First there's nothing like a group of infinite dimensions people live in and move between in 40k. Second if they were the same universe then things like Sylvaneth would not exist as they'd have been killed by Chaos fleets.

Having two groups of Old Ones is hardly firm proof. Referring to an ancient, mysterious race as the "Old Ones" strikes me as fairly common.

No.
And no, they are not the same universe. 40k and Fantasy had many irreconcilable differences. This is not only evident as soon as one knows a bit about Fantasy or compares both timelines, but it also has been explained to death already, and GW has explicitly severed the link all the way back in 3rd edition. Why do people keep bringing it up?
Hell, since the End Times was released the 40k universe disproves a link with the Fantasy universy by its very continued existance. In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.That means that if they were in the same universe, the entire 40k universe must have been destroyed also. Since that is not the case, we can effectively conclude that they are not linked.
Also, AoS is "great solid writing"? That is sarcasm I hope?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No.
And no, they are not the same universe. 40k and Fantasy had many irreconcilable differences. This is not only evident as soon as one knows a bit about Fantasy or compares both timelines, but it also has been explained to death already, and GW has explicitly severed the link all the way back in 3rd edition. Why do people keep bringing it up?
Hell, since the End Times was released the 40k universe disproves a link with the Fantasy universy by its very continued existance. In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.That means that if they were in the same universe, the entire 40k universe must have been destroyed also. Since that is not the case, we can effectively conclude that they are not linked.
Also, AoS is "great solid writing"? That is sarcasm I hope?

Oh of course there is sarcasm lol, AoS is gak/lazy writing into.

I'm not saying they are the same universe at all, that idea is dumb imo.

I'm saying the warp is the same warp, they messed up the age of sigmar universe for sure, but there are still boundless demensions to be had.

pm713 wrote:
Could also be a Stormcast or anything from the infinite realms of AOS.

It wasn't Draigo, it was a stormcast. He turns up in one of the AoS novels, but I don't recall which. Slaanesh isn't gone from AoS, I would expect a dramatic return at some point.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No.
And no, they are not the same universe. 40k and Fantasy had many irreconcilable differences. This is not only evident as soon as one knows a bit about Fantasy or compares both timelines, but it also has been explained to death already, and GW has explicitly severed the link all the way back in 3rd edition. Why do people keep bringing it up?
Hell, since the End Times was released the 40k universe disproves a link with the Fantasy universy by its very continued existance. In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.That means that if they were in the same universe, the entire 40k universe must have been destroyed also. Since that is not the case, we can effectively conclude that they are not linked.
Also, AoS is "great solid writing"? That is sarcasm I hope?

Oh of course there is sarcasm lol, AoS is gak/lazy writing into.

I'm not saying they are the same universe at all, that idea is dumb imo.

I'm saying the warp is the same warp, they messed up the age of sigmar universe for sure, but there are still boundless demensions to be had.

Even the Warp being the same is doubtful though. Slaanesh only comes into existance very late in 40k history (after the Fall of the Eldar), while in Fantasy Slaanesh had always existed and was as ancient as the other gods. Combine that with Slaanesh dissapearing in Fantasy/AoS but not in 40k and with the Horned Rat not existing in 40k, I don't think there is a lot of evidence to suggest they are the same (from a narrative point of view ofc. Conceptually it is just the same thing directly ported over from Fantasy into 40k)

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No.
And no, they are not the same universe. 40k and Fantasy had many irreconcilable differences. This is not only evident as soon as one knows a bit about Fantasy or compares both timelines, but it also has been explained to death already, and GW has explicitly severed the link all the way back in 3rd edition. Why do people keep bringing it up?
Hell, since the End Times was released the 40k universe disproves a link with the Fantasy universy by its very continued existance. In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.That means that if they were in the same universe, the entire 40k universe must have been destroyed also. Since that is not the case, we can effectively conclude that they are not linked.
Also, AoS is "great solid writing"? That is sarcasm I hope?

Oh of course there is sarcasm lol, AoS is gak/lazy writing into.

I'm not saying they are the same universe at all, that idea is dumb imo.

I'm saying the warp is the same warp, they messed up the age of sigmar universe for sure, but there are still boundless demensions to be had.

Even the Warp being the same is doubtful though. Slaanesh only comes into existance very late in 40k history (after the Fall of the Eldar), while in Fantasy Slaanesh had always existed and was as ancient as the other gods. Combine that with Slaanesh dissapearing in Fantasy/AoS but not in 40k and with the Horned Rat not existing in 40k, I don't think there is a lot of evidence to suggest they are the same (from a narrative point of view ofc. Conceptually it is just the same thing directly ported over from Fantasy into 40k)

In fairness the 40k Slaanesh has both never and always existed because time is weird in the Warp.

pm713 wrote:
IIRC several people have stated that GW has confirmed that that is not true and in addition it makes no sense. First there's nothing like a group of infinite dimensions people live in and move between in 40k.

Clearly you have never read any of the Eldar, Dark Eldar or Harlequin novels or codexes, because that pretty much is what the WebWay is: a dimesion that connects the Warp and the physical universe, as well as countless other dimesions. The Necron codex even states that Cryptek have knowledge of other universes beyond the main 2.

The Fantasy Realms can easily be shielded from the rest of the 40k Universe. The Old Ones probably pick that area of space and built Warp gates specifically for that reason. So while most 40K factions could easily exterminate most of the Fantasy factions, they'd have to find them first.

And a note about "timeline", no one can compare the 2 because there is not single point of reference. Everyone assumes that 40K events happen far in the future of the Fantasy events, but that does not have to be true at all. Fantasy has only a few thousand years of history, so it is conceivable that in order to coincide with the events of 40k that: A) Fantasy history is newer or B) like the Warp, time is irrelevant between dimensions or C) Both.

I am not saying that 100% they exist simultaneously, I am trying to make the point that there is just as much evidence to say that they do as there is evidence to say that they do not. This is deliberate on GW's part, both for the sake of the players' imagination (#don't squash my dreams) and to give them marketing options in the future.

--

 Galef wrote:

pm713 wrote:
IIRC several people have stated that GW has confirmed that that is not true and in addition it makes no sense. First there's nothing like a group of infinite dimensions people live in and move between in 40k.

Clearly you have never read any of the Eldar, Dark Eldar or Harlequin novels or codexes, because that pretty much is what the WebWay is: a dimesion that connects the Warp and the physical universe, as well as countless other dimesions. The Necron codex even states that Cryptek have knowledge of other universes beyond the main 2.

The Fantasy Realms can easily be shielded from the rest of the 40k Universe. The Old Ones probably pick that area of space and built Warp gates specifically for that reason. So while most 40K factions could easily exterminate most of the Fantasy factions, they'd have to find them first.

And a note about "timeline", no one can compare the 2 because there is not single point of reference. Everyone assumes that 40K events happen far in the future of the Fantasy events, but that does not have to be true at all. Fantasy has only a few thousand years of history, so it is conceivable that in order to coincide with the events of 40k that: A) Fantasy history is newer or B) like the Warp, time is irrelevant between dimensions or C) Both.

I am not saying that 100% they exist simultaneously, I am trying to make the point that there is just as much evidence to say that they do as there is evidence to say that they do not. This is deliberate on GW's part, both for the sake of the players' imagination (#don't squash my dreams) and to give them marketing options in the future.

--

I've read the Eldar codex, Path of the Eldar and Paths of the Dark Eldar. The Webway is much closer to tunnels of reality through the Warp and I saw no mention or even a hint of other dimensions. They're like veins but carrying reality not blood. Okay there are other universes. Still doesn't link Fantasy and 40k any more than it makes 40k real.

That doesn't explain how the Fantasy universe can explode without damaging 40k or how the various realms of AOS can be infinite. There really isn't that much evidence for them being linked unless you start grasping at straws..

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No.
And no, they are not the same universe. 40k and Fantasy had many irreconcilable differences. This is not only evident as soon as one knows a bit about Fantasy or compares both timelines, but it also has been explained to death already, and GW has explicitly severed the link all the way back in 3rd edition. Why do people keep bringing it up?
Hell, since the End Times was released the 40k universe disproves a link with the Fantasy universy by its very continued existance. In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.That means that if they were in the same universe, the entire 40k universe must have been destroyed also. Since that is not the case, we can effectively conclude that they are not linked.
Also, AoS is "great solid writing"? That is sarcasm I hope?

Oh of course there is sarcasm lol, AoS is gak/lazy writing into.

I'm not saying they are the same universe at all, that idea is dumb imo.

I'm saying the warp is the same warp, they messed up the age of sigmar universe for sure, but there are still boundless demensions to be had.

Even the Warp being the same is doubtful though. Slaanesh only comes into existance very late in 40k history (after the Fall of the Eldar), while in Fantasy Slaanesh had always existed and was as ancient as the other gods. Combine that with Slaanesh dissapearing in Fantasy/AoS but not in 40k and with the Horned Rat not existing in 40k, I don't think there is a lot of evidence to suggest they are the same (from a narrative point of view ofc. Conceptually it is just the same thing directly ported over from Fantasy into 40k)

In fairness the 40k Slaanesh has both never and always existed because time is weird in the Warp.

^ This. Slaanesh still existed before The Fall, thanks to timey wimey shenanigans.

There was some other stuff that indicated a connection between the two. In the one fantasy campaign on the island of Albion, the winning armies won "magic items" that were clearly based on 40k equipment. Of course, that can be dismissed as a tongue-in-cheek reference rather than WFB WUZ DAEMON WORLD, SIGMAR LOST PRIMARCH CONFIRMED.

Anyway, GW needs to leave Slaanesh alone, particularly in 40k, where some very important fluff for various factions and the history of the whole universe hinges on Slaanesh.

GW hasn't done much with Slaanesh for awhile have they? I think they might be trying to slip them into the background for now. If they did that, it would kind of ruin the eldar, but you don't really need Slaanesh to be a big 4 for the eldar to work. Slaanesh just needs to exist and that might simply be as an eldar god.

Either that, or as the the end times near, and the power of the other three increases, Slaanesh as the god of excess emerges as the most powerful?

 fallinq wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No.
And no, they are not the same universe. 40k and Fantasy had many irreconcilable differences. This is not only evident as soon as one knows a bit about Fantasy or compares both timelines, but it also has been explained to death already, and GW has explicitly severed the link all the way back in 3rd edition. Why do people keep bringing it up?
Hell, since the End Times was released the 40k universe disproves a link with the Fantasy universy by its very continued existance. In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.That means that if they were in the same universe, the entire 40k universe must have been destroyed also. Since that is not the case, we can effectively conclude that they are not linked.
Also, AoS is "great solid writing"? That is sarcasm I hope?

Oh of course there is sarcasm lol, AoS is gak/lazy writing into.

I'm not saying they are the same universe at all, that idea is dumb imo.

I'm saying the warp is the same warp, they messed up the age of sigmar universe for sure, but there are still boundless demensions to be had.

Even the Warp being the same is doubtful though. Slaanesh only comes into existance very late in 40k history (after the Fall of the Eldar), while in Fantasy Slaanesh had always existed and was as ancient as the other gods. Combine that with Slaanesh dissapearing in Fantasy/AoS but not in 40k and with the Horned Rat not existing in 40k, I don't think there is a lot of evidence to suggest they are the same (from a narrative point of view ofc. Conceptually it is just the same thing directly ported over from Fantasy into 40k)

In fairness the 40k Slaanesh has both never and always existed because time is weird in the Warp.

^ This. Slaanesh still existed before The Fall, thanks to timey wimey shenanigans.

It didn't.
At least not in the physical universe before the Fall. Now the Warp is a weird place, and as time works differently there Slaanesh has indeed always existed in that dimension, but that is the reality of Warp creatures, not the reality of the physical universe. Slaanesh did not exist in any form capable of interacting with or manipulating the physical realm in any way. In the physical realm we can draw a clear line between before and after Slaanesh came to exist.

nomotog wrote:
GW hasn't done much with Slaanesh for awhile have they? I think they might be trying to slip them into the background for now. If they did that, it would kind of ruin the eldar, but you don't really need Slaanesh to be a big 4 for the eldar to work. Slaanesh just needs to exist and that might simply be as an eldar god.

They haven't done much with anything that isn't Khorne or to an extent Nurgle. There's rumours of some Tzeench love soon so maybe they'll do Slaanesh too. In AoS I think they're waiting to do something big with the story involving Slaanesh (there's still rules for Slaanesh stuff and considering they didn't do rules for Brettonia and Tomb Kings they'd have got rid of Slaanesh if they were planning to. Plus Slaanesh's symbol is on the new big Archaon models shield still).

I think the OP has it backwards. The link between 40k and Fantasy was a very old component of the lore, as in, rogue trader and 2nd edition 40k era. They dropped that line of thought thereafter as 40k gained a stable foundation (also purged the Squats and generally began de-fantasy-ing 40k). Even so, back then the link was very tenuous. The Old Ones may have or may not have been the same as in 40k, but, even if they were, Fantasy existed in an alternate dimension. Chaos spilled over into both because they do exist in a realm of impossibility, so why not, daemons are cool. My favorite part was always the stories of 40k relics appearing in Fantasy, like some form of warp flotsam. Imagine a marauder warlord finding a bolter... Anyways, Malal was the god of mutation and anti-chaos. It sought to literally destroy the other chaos gods. I suppose GW could make it so that Malal in 40k (which has not been a thing in a very long time) was in fact an echo of the Horned Rat through the warp, but it would serve no purpose, since Malal does not exist in modern 40k.

It used to be linked and the old world was just a single world in the universe AoS might have ended that with their whole nd of reality stuff.

Before that there where numerous examples of 40k weapons popping up in the Chaos, Amazon and lizardmen equipment / magic item lists

So Malal/Malice definitively didn't dethrone Slaneesh in the 40k universe but he still exists as a minor fifth god,

This is confirmed by the Sons of Malice traitor legion that used to be a regualr loyalist chapter who eat the corpses of their enemies and then were kicked out the imperium by the inquisition because of it and start worshipping Malice ie. Malal, ie The Great Horned One.

From what i understand though he is pretty minor and other then them doesnt have many followers and they dont do much cause they consider themselves enemies of the imperium and chaos alike.

As for the link between universes... Maybe threw some warp daemon mumbo-jumbo, cause isnt that how orks got to 40k?

But i dont think there is any direct or open link


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really I hope they make space skraven a think soon, then maybe we can seem some more malice/malal/great horned rat worshipers, or they could worship nurgle some more, or both.

"In the Warp, things are different, for the Immaterium is not bound by linear time and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. As his rival gods reckon it, Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp and yet has never existed at all" - 6th Ed. Chaos Demon Codex.

Slaanesh is an important part of the Chaos fluff, and he's not going anywhere. Not in Age of Sigmar lore and certainly not in 40k lore. She's just having a nap in AoS - gorging on all those tasty Elf souls at the sundering of the Old World does tend to make one sleepy.

 Caesar3594 wrote:
So Malal/Malice definitively didn't dethrone Slaneesh in the 40k universe but he still exists as a minor fifth god,

This is confirmed by the Sons of Malice traitor legion that used to be a regualr loyalist chapter who eat the corpses of their enemies and then were kicked out the imperium by the inquisition because of it and start worshipping Malice ie. Malal, ie The Great Horned One.

From what i understand though he is pretty minor and other then them doesnt have many followers and they dont do much cause they consider themselves enemies of the imperium and chaos alike.

As for the link between universes... Maybe threw some warp daemon mumbo-jumbo, cause isnt that how orks got to 40k?

But i dont think there is any direct or open link


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really I hope they make space skraven a think soon, then maybe we can seem some more malice/malal/great horned rat worshipers, or they could worship nurgle some more, or both.

on an aside thats whats kinda interesting about malal, the more you dont talk about him the stronger he gets. There is a fan theory floating about the inter tubes that the Big E is actually Malal or at least is working with him in some way, or is trapped specifically by malal.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So with the great solid writing of age of sigmar, pretty boy slannesh got his/her butt kicked and de throned by the great horned rat. As a result the great horned rat took her/his place as a chaos God.

Since it has been proven and is accepted both fantasy and 40k are linked via the warp, does this now mean, technically, slannesh is also out of power in 40k as well and that the great horned rat is a God In 40k as well? Or is now canon malice?

Would at least be a good way to progress eldar lore.

I dont think any of your premise is proven or accepted.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So with the great solid writing of age of sigmar, pretty boy slannesh got his/her butt kicked and de throned by the great horned rat. As a result the great horned rat took her/his place as a chaos God.

Since it has been proven and is accepted both fantasy and 40k are linked via the warp, does this now mean, technically, slannesh is also out of power in 40k as well and that the great horned rat is a God In 40k as well? Or is now canon malice?

Would at least be a good way to progress eldar lore.

Slaanesh didn't get his butt kicked by the Horned Rat, he just went missing after a plot by Tzeentch.
While the Realm of Chaos is multiversal, it is also beyond time, so while Slaanesh may well be missing he's also not missing, and we don't know exactly how time would sync up between the AoS universe and the 40k universe.
Also, the Horned Rat is nothing like Malice.

pm713 wrote:
Could also be a Stormcast or anything from the infinite realms of AOS.

Possible, but doubtful, they met the Knight during the End Times, Stormcast Eternals did not even exist in the real world yet.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.

Actually it was just the planet, the winds of magic and the core of the world then flew off into space.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
on an aside thats whats kinda interesting about malal, the more you dont talk about him the stronger he gets. There is a fan theory floating about the inter tubes that the Big E is actually Malal or at least is working with him in some way, or is trapped specifically by malal.

Malal has never been attributed that power. You're perhaps thinking of Necoho, who was essentially a god of atheism. In truth Malal does not exist, GW cannot use him for legal reasons, so the closest you can get is making a reference character like Malice.

I would imagine the Chaos Gods live outside of dimensions. 40k and Fantasy could live in different realities and timelines (besides of course... games...). As for GHR overthrowing Slaanesh, for all we know Mr/Mrs/It Slaanesh could just say "eh, that reality is boring now, you can have it ugly, I'm gonna go *unspeakable things* over in my favorite reality".


Never know.

They long cut the ties between the two settings.

Malal is sort of still around in 40 K. He's just called by name and it's mostly kinda like easter eggs. I can remember some fluff about a random black (or was it red) star apearing and bringing a bad omen with it. I thought it had something to do with him.

Edit: It was the Tyrant Star.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
They long cut the ties between the two settings.

Not true. When the Daemons were released they said that they were the same entities in both settings.
In Kaldor Draigo: Knight of Titan Draigo sees the Warhammer Fantasy World while strolling through the Warp and decided to try go there.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Malal is sort of still around in 40 K. He's just called by name and it's mostly kinda like easter eggs.

Malal never actually appeared in any 40k publication, Phraz-Etar actually has more cross universal power as he has been mentioned in both.
Malal is as canon to the 40k universe as Judge Dredd, that is to say he is not, but similar elements can be found.

Animus wrote:

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
They long cut the ties between the two settings.

Not true. When the Daemons were released they said that they were the same entities in both settings.
In Kaldor Draigo: Knight of Titan Draigo sees the Warhammer Fantasy World while strolling through the Warp and decided to try go there.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Malal is sort of still around in 40 K. He's just called by name and it's mostly kinda like easter eggs.

Malal never actually appeared in any 40k publication, Phraz-Etar actually has more cross universal power as he has been mentioned in both.
Malal is as canon to the 40k universe as Judge Dredd, that is to say he is not, but similar elements can be found.

Yeah, same entities because Chaos is the same in 40K and WHF. They do the same kind of things they would do in the other setting. It does not mean that they are directly connected.

And as I said Malal/Malice only is mentioned in 40K through easter eggs. 3rd ed. Chaos Codex both mention Dread Axe and the Sons of Malice. (Their patron god doesn't get mentioned, but they love to figh other Chaos dudes.)

And is it litetally called the whf world in that book? If not, it could be any feudal world inhabbited by humans and xenos that they did not discover.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Yeah, same entities because Chaos is the same in 40K and WHF. They do the same kind of things they would do in the other setting. It does not mean that they are directly connected.

It means they are directly connected by Chaos.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
And is it litetally called the whf world in that book? If not, it could be any feudal world inhabbited by humans and xenos that they did not discover.

No, as the Warhammer world does not have a name. It does call it an old world, mention the winds of magic and a god king standing against Chaos, which is of course Sigmar.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:


And as I said Malal/Malice only is mentioned in 40K through easter eggs. 3rd ed. Chaos Codex both mention Dread Axe and the Sons of Malice. (Their patron god doesn't get mentioned, but they love to figh other Chaos dudes.)

Uh... while Malal is most definitely NOT mentioned in 40k (I think the copyright issues of the guy who invented him for a White Dwarf comic are in full effect) Malice most definitely IS. The short story "Labyrinth" about the Sons of Malice CSM's is the only reason "Malice" is an entity at all.

^ This. Slaanesh still existed before The Fall, thanks to timey wimey shenanigans.

It didn't.
At least not in the physical universe before the Fall. Now the Warp is a weird place, and as time works differently there Slaanesh has indeed always existed in that dimension, but that is the reality of Warp creatures, not the reality of the physical universe. Slaanesh did not exist in any form capable of interacting with or manipulating the physical realm in any way. In the physical realm we can draw a clear line between before and after Slaanesh came to exist.

Citation needed. The only canon quotes I've seen regarding this say that Slaanesh has always existed despite being "born" at The Fall, because time is meaningless in the Warp. I've seen nothing that declared that s/he couldn't effect the universe before The Fall. Sounds like headcanon to me.

Anyway, as other people have mentioned, Malal/Malice doesn't have a whole lot in common with the Horned Rat. Really, the Horned Rat has a lot more in common with Nurgle (bringing pestilence everywhere, heck Skaven Plague Monks are indistinguishable from Nurgle worshippers except they're rat-people) and Tzeentch (setting up a hierarchal society that's constantly scheming and backstabbing). Where's the self-destruction, misanthropy, anarchy, and penchant for omnicide? This is actually a problem I have with the Horned Rat becoming part of the Big Four as a concept. He covers a lot of the same territory as the others.

 fallinq wrote:

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:


And as I said Malal/Malice only is mentioned in 40K through easter eggs. 3rd ed. Chaos Codex both mention Dread Axe and the Sons of Malice. (Their patron god doesn't get mentioned, but they love to figh other Chaos dudes.)

Uh... while Malal is most definitely NOT mentioned in 40k (I think the copyright issues of the guy who invented him for a White Dwarf comic are in full effect) Malice most definitely IS. The short story "Labyrinth" about the Sons of Malice CSM's is the only reason "Malice" is an entity at all.

^ This. Slaanesh still existed before The Fall, thanks to timey wimey shenanigans.

It didn't.
At least not in the physical universe before the Fall. Now the Warp is a weird place, and as time works differently there Slaanesh has indeed always existed in that dimension, but that is the reality of Warp creatures, not the reality of the physical universe. Slaanesh did not exist in any form capable of interacting with or manipulating the physical realm in any way. In the physical realm we can draw a clear line between before and after Slaanesh came to exist.

Citation needed. The only canon quotes I've seen regarding this say that Slaanesh has always existed despite being "born" at The Fall, because time is meaningless in the Warp. I've seen nothing that declared that s/he couldn't effect the universe before The Fall. Sounds like headcanon to me.

Time is meaningless in the Warp. The material universe however remains very much bound by it. Slaanesh affecting the material universe before existing is quite simply impossible. The birth of Slaanesh is a very clearly described event. Before it there was no Slaanesh, after it there was. If Slaanesh had already existed there could have been no birth, for there would have been nothing to be born.
Also, I have never seen anything that declared that Slaanesh could affect the material universe before being born, making that headcanon, not the other way around. That is shifting the burden of proof

 Iron_Captain wrote:


Time is meaningless in the Warp. The material universe however remains very much bound by it. Slaanesh affecting the material universe before existing is quite simply impossible. The birth of Slaanesh is a very clearly described event. Before it there was no Slaanesh, after it there was. If Slaanesh had already existed there could have been no birth, for there would have been nothing to be born.
Also, I have never seen anything that declared that Slaanesh could affect the material universe before being born, making that headcanon, not the other way around. That is shifting the burden of proof

Sooo impossible warp beings are bound by real world physics and logic, even when it's clearly stated in the fictional universe that they reside in that they aren't. Kay, sure.

I mean, we're arguing about the fictional rules that govern beings that VIOLATE REAL WORLD NATURAL LAWS, and you're using real world natural laws to say that your opinion is canon. Not how it works. The only "authority" on what chaos gods can and can't do is what is flat out stated in the source material. So no, I'm not "shifting the burden of proof."

Maybe Slaanesh could affect the physical world of the 40k verse before "birth" (which was nothing like a natural, biological birth, BTW) and maybe not. I've never claimed more than that. You, on the other hand, have. If you can't back it up with explicit statements from source material, it's theories and headcanon.

...I can't believe that I have to explain that fiction doesn't always run on real world logic. If this argument continues, it's going to get stupid fast.

As I recall, Andy Chambers said (at Games Day c2000) that if we really wanted an in-universe explanation for the commonalities between the two game settings, it was that the Warhammer World was a microcosm of the 40k universe, created by the Old Ones (who may or may not be the Slaan) in order to discern how creation might be saved from Chaos.

Or we could, you know, just accept the real-world explanation that back in 1987 40k was written with Space Elves, Space Dwarfs, Space Orks, etc. to capitalise on the popularity of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. (How things can change in thirty years...)

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:


And as I said Malal/Malice only is mentioned in 40K through easter eggs. 3rd ed. Chaos Codex both mention Dread Axe and the Sons of Malice. (Their patron god doesn't get mentioned, but they love to figh other Chaos dudes.)

Uh... while Malal is most definitely NOT mentioned in 40k (I think the copyright issues of the guy who invented him for a White Dwarf comic are in full effect) Malice most definitely IS. The short story "Labyrinth" about the Sons of Malice CSM's is the only reason "Malice" is an entity at all.

Malal/Malice/The Great Horned Rat are all them same entity under different names being worshiped by different rances

 Caesar3594 wrote:
Malal/Malice/The Great Horned Rat are all them same entity under different names being worshiped by different races.

Citation needed.

(Which is a nice way of saying 'this statement is unsupported anywhere in 40k canon'.)

Um, yeah no. The first two are litterally a slight name variation from different races languages, all three are described the same in fluff. He is the offical 5th smaller unallied ruinous power.
The sons of malice areally described as "worshiping a great rat god known as Malice" Age of sigmar/ fantady uses malal and the great horned rate interchangably.

I dont have to site what is obviously said multiple times in the fluff.

If you want to claim it's not true then you have to provide citation or proof that your claims are true.

In this case its innocent until proven guilty. Or correct until proven false.

 Caesar3594 wrote:
If you want to claim it's not true then you have to provide citation or proof that your claims are true.

In this case its innocent until proven guilty. Or correct until proven false.

I really shouldn't have to explain this to an adult human being, but that is not how the burden of proof works.

Not in this case. I have provided logic that suports

Malal = Great horned Rat
And that
Great Horned Rat = Malice

Thus the basic logic and the transtivie property malal also equals malice and their all the same minor god.

How is this so hard to grasp? It's very clear.

I don't have to justify my reasoning.

Why do you think otherwise? How are they not the same?

Malal and the Horned Rat are different though. Malal was kind of the 'anti-chaos' chaos God, where as the Great Horned Rat isn't. Past their appearance they don't seem to have much in common

 fallinq wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:


Time is meaningless in the Warp. The material universe however remains very much bound by it. Slaanesh affecting the material universe before existing is quite simply impossible. The birth of Slaanesh is a very clearly described event. Before it there was no Slaanesh, after it there was. If Slaanesh had already existed there could have been no birth, for there would have been nothing to be born.
Also, I have never seen anything that declared that Slaanesh could affect the material universe before being born, making that headcanon, not the other way around. That is shifting the burden of proof

Sooo impossible warp beings are bound by real world physics and logic, even when it's clearly stated in the fictional universe that they reside in that they aren't. Kay, sure.

I mean, we're arguing about the fictional rules that govern beings that VIOLATE REAL WORLD NATURAL LAWS, and you're using real world natural laws to say that your opinion is canon. Not how it works. The only "authority" on what chaos gods can and can't do is what is flat out stated in the source material. So no, I'm not "shifting the burden of proof."

I am not saying that warp beings are bound by real world physics, I am saying that the material universe in 40k is (mostly at least). Within the Warp, warp creatures are not bound by the laws governing the material universe. If they interact with the material universe however they and their interactions with it are. The evidence for this is found in the fluff. Otherwise a Plaguebearer would have been able to do things like flying or walking through solid walls. In the Warp it would have been able to do so, provided that Nurgle would given it that power. In the material universe however it is never going to happen no matter what power it has been given. Warp creatures are bound by the laws of the material universe when in the material universe. It is really quite obvious in the fluff.
Also, I am not using natural laws from the real world, these are 40k natural laws. They are quite evident in existance when reading the fluff. Or would you like to argue there is no gravity or time in 40k?

 fallinq wrote:
Maybe Slaanesh could affect the physical world of the 40k verse before "birth" (which was nothing like a natural, biological birth, BTW) and maybe not. I've never claimed more than that. You, on the other hand, have. If you can't back it up with explicit statements from source material, it's theories and headcanon.

I don't have to proof a negative claim, as the negative is the default position. You have made a positive claim (Slaanesh may have been able to affect physicial world before its birth). This means that per the standard rules of a (scientific) discussion, the burden of proof is on you. There has never been anything written afaik in the fluff about whether Slaanesh could affect the material universe before it was born. Therefore, since we lack any proof either way we have to accept the negative postion as default.

Consider it like this:
Leprechauns may or may not exist in 40k. No one has ever read about a leprechaun in 40k. We have no evidence for their existance in 40k canon. Yet at the same time we also have no evidence to disprove their existance with, as it has never been explicitly written that leprechauns don't exist in 40k. So should we seriously consider the existance of leprechauns in 40k? or not?

 fallinq wrote:
...I can't believe that I have to explain that fiction doesn't always run on real world logic. If this argument continues, it's going to get stupid fast.

No, fiction does not always run of real world logic. In the vast majority of cases however, it does. (it would be a very, very weird read otherwise ). Also, this argument is stupid already. It is an argument about fictional entities in a fictional universe. Having an argument about that was stupid from the moment it started.

The Great Horned Rat is an anti chas god, just like the other 2 names he is called

 Caesar3594 wrote:
I don't have to justify my reasoning.

If you wish your reasoning to be taken seriously, it is up to you to support it with evidence.

Until you do, your contention fails to meet the criterion of falsifiability. Right now, you are engaged in the fallacy, beloved of pseudoscientists and conspiracy theorists, that you can shift the burden of proof to demand the disproving of an unverifiable (and thus unfalsifiable) claim.

 Caesar3594 wrote:

In this case its innocent until proven guilty. Or correct until proven false.

You are getting that the wrong way round. It is innocent until proven guilty, which means that it is false until it is proven correct. Innocence and falsity are negative claims (suspect did not do that, that is not the case) whereas guilt and correctness are positive claims (suspect did indeed do that, that is indeed the case). The burden of proof is always with the positive claim. Negative claims do not need to be proven, they simply can be disregarded as soon as the positive claim is proven.

This is no burden of proof were talking Warhammer background here not a philisophical debate.

Many seem to think those rules apply here, they do not

 Caesar3594 wrote:
This is no burden of proof were talking Warhammer background here not a philisophical debate.

Many seem to think those rules apply here, they do not

So now that it has been demonstrated comprehensively that you have failed to substantiate your hypothesis with reason and evidence, you suddenly embrace postmodernism. Classy.

In other news, I can today reveal that Enid Blyton's Noddy was secretly the Horned Rat all along.

 Lord Fishface wrote:

 Caesar3594 wrote:
This is no burden of proof were talking Warhammer background here not a philisophical debate.

Many seem to think those rules apply here, they do not

So now that it has been demonstrated comprehensively that you have failed to substantiate your hypothesis with reason and evidence, you suddenly embrace postmodernism. Classy.

In other news, I can today reveal that Enid Blyton's Noddy was secretly the Horned Rat all along.

OH YES HOW SILLY OF ME!
Of couse making statements that are backed wit logic is just the same as making stupid claims out of no where that makes no sense!!!

Allright Mr. "I can use big big philpsphy words" there no hypothesis here, I'm not guessing anything based of the most basic first assertion of data before experimenting more.

Also I think we all have a little bit of postmodernism considering were arguing about a universe 38thpusand years in the future.

 Caesar3594 wrote:
The Great Horned Rat is an anti chas god, just like the other 2 names he is called

How?

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Caesar3594 wrote:
The Great Horned Rat is an anti chas god, just like the other 2 names he is called

How?

He is not affliated or allied with any of the 4 major gods and his worshippers/forces have been seen often fighting against forces of the more major gods

 Caesar3594 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Caesar3594 wrote:
The Great Horned Rat is an anti chas god, just like the other 2 names he is called

How?

He is not affliated or allied with any of the 4 major gods and his worshippers/forces have been seen often fighting against forces of the more major gods

So what? Not allied with another Chaos God and often fighting the Chaos Gods can be said for Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch.

Malal/Malice is never called The Great Horned Rat or vice versa. My view will only be changed by actual proof of this. The Great Horned Rat has never been mentioned in 40K.

It has never been said what the Great Horned Rat is as far as I know... And we do know that there are minor Chaos Gods around to. So in fact, it could be possible he was/is a minor Chaos God. At least in Fantasy.

The games once were connected but they went their own ways eventually, after it's creators decided that.

It would be most likely a Multiverse thing instead, if you still believe they are connected.. With the warp being somewhat connected/overlapping with itself, this is not confirmed as far as I know.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
It's been shown a few time that both realms are linked via the warp, in one instance a group of elves go into nurgals garden and two about how they saw a massive human clad in silver armor fighting off endless waves of demons, IE draigo. Or the skaven who stole an artifact from the lizard men which when they used it they basically prank called the eldar on accident.

From my understanding the great horned rat = Malal = malice (due to copy right) = may or may not exist. But since we know the warp connects the two universes...

Eh eh? Malal/ malice now canon?? Eehhhhhh!

There is nothing proving that the silver-clad knight is Draigo. That's fanon speculation. There's also be significant distancing between the two game-settings over the last twenty years or so. Once upon a time, yes, they were connected (Fans also thought that the Old World might just have been a "bio preserve" trapped in a Warp Storm).

The Horned Rat and Malal are not the same god, either.

Alright so I did some more reasearch and you guys are half right. The Great Horned Rat is different from Malal

but Malal and Malice are the same and Malice is now 40k canon.


Here is ze proof


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Malice
"led the Chapter to declare itself to be both enemies of the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos even as it took up service to the Renegade Chaos God Malal, also called Malice, the Hierarch of Anarchy and Terror."

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Malal
"Malice was created for 3rd edition Warhammer 40000 in the Chaos Space Marine Codex. An axe identical to Kaleb Daark's is described which was created to kill other beings of Chaos, and a Chaos Space Marine Chapter in Malal's colors was shown under the name "Sons of Malice"."

There was a rat god in Necromunda.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nope. My bad. That's the Caller and not the horned rat.

 Caesar3594 wrote:
Alright so I did some more reasearch and you guys are half right. The Great Horned Rat is different from Malal

but Malal and Malice are the same and Malice is now 40k canon.


Here is ze proof


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Malice
"led the Chapter to declare itself to be both enemies of the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos even as it took up service to the Renegade Chaos God Malal, also called Malice, the Hierarch of Anarchy and Terror."

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Malal
"Malice was created for 3rd edition Warhammer 40000 in the Chaos Space Marine Codex. An axe identical to Kaleb Daark's is described which was created to kill other beings of Chaos, and a Chaos Space Marine Chapter in Malal's colors was shown under the name "Sons of Malice"."

Lexicanum and 1d4chan are fan-made wikis. They are not canon, they are not always correct in information and thus they are not proof of anything. Proof only comes from canon sources.
Malice and Malal are not the same because of copyright reasons. GW is no longer allowed to use Malal. Malice is 40k canon, Malal isn't.
Malice in 40k does share some similarities with Malal from WHFB, but there really aren't much details given on Malice, who only has appeared once in a BL book. He may not even be an actual god, given the fact that unlike the real gods, Malice could be summoned into the material realm similar to a daemon. This suggests that Malice is an independent warp spirit or daemon rather than a being akin to the Chaos Gods.

It is conceivable that the Warhammer Old World was a planet set deep within where the Eye of Terror currently exists. If we assume the Old Ones built it, and the Eldar left it alone for some reason (say, because they were kept out by appropriate technological mechanisms designed by the Old Ones), then it would make sense that the first Great Chaos Incursion occurred with the Birth of Slaanesh. The great warp explosion would have proved sufficient to damage those mechanisms, releasing Chaos into the WFB World but not enough to flood it completely.

Fast Forward to the Old World pre-Age of Sigmar, that would mean that the WFB world is situated deep within the Eye of Terror, far beyond any Eldar or Imperium reach. But when the Old World finally imploded, it required the measures specified in Age of Sigmar to create these little pocket dimensions, which are now just little bubbles of reality floating around deep within the Eye.

This is pretty rough stuff I'm outlining, but it should demonstrate how the two conceivable could be part of the same Universe. I'm not asserting that they are, merely that a skilled piece of fiction from one of the GW writers could link the two. I shan't lie, I'd be stoked if Russ showed up in Age of Sigmar!

 Ketara wrote:
It is conceivable that the Warhammer Old World was a planet set deep within where the Eye of Terror currently exists. If we assume the Old Ones built it, and the Eldar left it alone for some reason (say, because they were kept out by appropriate technological mechanisms designed by the Old Ones), then it would make sense that the first Great Chaos Incursion occurred with the Birth of Slaanesh. The great warp explosion would have proved sufficient to damage those mechanisms, releasing Chaos into the WFB World but not enough to flood it completely.

Fast Forward to the Old World pre-Age of Sigmar, that would mean that the WFB world is situated deep within the Eye of Terror, far beyond any Eldar or Imperium reach. But when the Old World finally imploded, it required the measures specified in Age of Sigmar to create these little pocket dimensions, which are now just little bubbles of reality floating around deep within the Eye.

This is pretty rough stuff I'm outlining, but it should demonstrate how the two conceivable could be part of the same Universe. I'm not asserting that they are, merely that a skilled piece of fiction from one of the GW writers could link the two. I shan't lie, I'd be stoked if Russ showed up in Age of Sigmar!

Wait are you suggesting that the End times 'explosion' of the universe was the Eye of terror being born? Because that would be kinda interesting.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
It is conceivable that the Warhammer Old World was a planet set deep within where the Eye of Terror currently exists. If we assume the Old Ones built it, and the Eldar left it alone for some reason (say, because they were kept out by appropriate technological mechanisms designed by the Old Ones), then it would make sense that the first Great Chaos Incursion occurred with the Birth of Slaanesh. The great warp explosion would have proved sufficient to damage those mechanisms, releasing Chaos into the WFB World but not enough to flood it completely.

Fast Forward to the Old World pre-Age of Sigmar, that would mean that the WFB world is situated deep within the Eye of Terror, far beyond any Eldar or Imperium reach. But when the Old World finally imploded, it required the measures specified in Age of Sigmar to create these little pocket dimensions, which are now just little bubbles of reality floating around deep within the Eye.

This is pretty rough stuff I'm outlining, but it should demonstrate how the two conceivable could be part of the same Universe. I'm not asserting that they are, merely that a skilled piece of fiction from one of the GW writers could link the two. I shan't lie, I'd be stoked if Russ showed up in Age of Sigmar!

Wait are you suggesting that the End times 'explosion' of the universe was the Eye of terror being born? Because that would be kinda interesting.

Nope. I'm suggesting that the First Great Incursion, where Aenarion and co. threw back the daemon hordes would have been the birth of Slaanesh. It would conveniently explain why no Eldar or Imperial has managed to reach the WFB subsequently to that, yet the odd bit of wargear seemed to float through, as well as why the immediate surroundings of the WFB were nothing but a maelstrom of Chaos when the Old Ones' warp restraint devices finally failed later on during the End Times.

Note that I'm not saying this IS what happened, merely demonstrating that the two universes could be (re)linked with a minimum of writing effort on the part of GW, and that there is no necessary barrier to people believing them to still being linked.

Doesn't explain how you have Slaanesh around before End Times though. If the End Times was the birth of Slaanesh then Slaanesh couldn't have done anything beforehand.

pm713 wrote:
Doesn't explain how you have Slaanesh around before End Times though. If the End Times was the birth of Slaanesh then Slaanesh couldn't have done anything beforehand.

The First Great Incursion and the End Times are separate events.

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Doesn't explain how you have Slaanesh around before End Times though. If the End Times was the birth of Slaanesh then Slaanesh couldn't have done anything beforehand.

The First Great Incursion and the End Times are separate events.

But you said First Great Incursion = Slaanesh birth. That's the creation of the Eye of Terror...

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Doesn't explain how you have Slaanesh around before End Times though. If the End Times was the birth of Slaanesh then Slaanesh couldn't have done anything beforehand.

The First Great Incursion and the End Times are separate events.

But you said First Great Incursion = Slaanesh birth. That's the creation of the Eye of Terror...

I did. The First Great Incursion happened thousands of years before the End Times, meaning the WFB world would have been floating in the Eye of Terror ever since then (and Slaanesh would have existed for the duration of the history of WFB and been present during the End Times).

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Doesn't explain how you have Slaanesh around before End Times though. If the End Times was the birth of Slaanesh then Slaanesh couldn't have done anything beforehand.

The First Great Incursion and the End Times are separate events.

But you said First Great Incursion = Slaanesh birth. That's the creation of the Eye of Terror...

I did. The First Great Incursion happened thousands of years before the End Times, meaning the WFB world would have been floating in the Eye of Terror ever since then (and Slaanesh would have existed for the duration of the history of WFB and been present during the End Times).

Then that's wrong. The Birth of Slaanesh and the creation of the Eye of Terror are the same thing. You've added a completely new period.

I'm aware of that. You're mixing things up. Here's a vague timeline to help understand:-

-Old Ones create Orks, Eldar, Humans, and everything else.
-For whatever reason (being inscrutable aliens) they choose to shove them all on a planet near the Eldar homeworlds along with barriers to entry, and see what happens.
-Old Ones fall, the Eldar still can't/choose not to access this world.
-The Birth of Slaanesh happens, the Eldar homeworlds are enveloped in what is known as the Eye of Terror. Meanwhile, the barriers the Old Ones left are strong enough to partially withstand the birth of Slaanesh. Aenarion and the rest throw back the Daemon hordes, Chaos is checked at the poles.
-Several thousand years of WFB history happens on this planet, which is now floating around in the middle of the Eye of Terror, with the Chaos Gods trying to break in using their various pawns.
-They finally succeed during the End Times, the WFB planet is suddenly enveloped by the maelstrom of Chaos known as the Eye of Terror.
-Various little bubble dimensions are then established as per the Age of Sigmar fluff.

 Ketara wrote:
I'm aware of that. You're mixing things up. Here's a vague timeline to help understand:-

-Old Ones create Orks, Eldar, Humans, and everything else.
-For whatever reason (being inscrutable aliens) they choose to shove them all on a planet along with barriers to entry, and see what happens.
-Old Ones fall, the Eldar still can't/choose not to access this world.
-The Birth of Slaanesh happens, Eldar homeworld are enveloped in what is known as the Eye of Terror. Meanwhile, the barriers the Old Ones left are strong enough to partially withstand the birth of Slaanesh. Aenarion and the rest throw back the Daemon hordes, Chaos is checked at the poles.
-Several thousand years of WFB history happens on this planet, which is now floating around in the middle of the Eye of Terror, with the Chaos Gods trying to break in using their various pawns.
-They finally succeed during the End Times, the WFB planet is suddenly enveloped by the maelstrom of Chaos known as the Eye of Terror.
-Various little bubble dimensions are then established as per the Age of Sigmar fluff.

Oh I see. You didn't invent several thousand years then. Just a very questionable world that somehow went unnoticed in the centre of the Eldar Empire for who knows how long. What stops the bubble dimensions being invaded by Chaos Marines?

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
I'm aware of that. You're mixing things up. Here's a vague timeline to help understand:-

-Old Ones create Orks, Eldar, Humans, and everything else.
-For whatever reason (being inscrutable aliens) they choose to shove them all on a planet along with barriers to entry, and see what happens.
-Old Ones fall, the Eldar still can't/choose not to access this world.
-The Birth of Slaanesh happens, Eldar homeworld are enveloped in what is known as the Eye of Terror. Meanwhile, the barriers the Old Ones left are strong enough to partially withstand the birth of Slaanesh. Aenarion and the rest throw back the Daemon hordes, Chaos is checked at the poles.
-Several thousand years of WFB history happens on this planet, which is now floating around in the middle of the Eye of Terror, with the Chaos Gods trying to break in using their various pawns.
-They finally succeed during the End Times, the WFB planet is suddenly enveloped by the maelstrom of Chaos known as the Eye of Terror.
-Various little bubble dimensions are then established as per the Age of Sigmar fluff.

Oh I see. You didn't invent several thousand years then. Just a very questionable world that somehow went unnoticed in the centre of the Eldar Empire for who knows how long. What stops the bubble dimensions being invaded by Chaos Marines?

One could assume that the barriers/mechanisms invented by the Old Ones that prevented the Eldar from intruding after the Old Ones vanished, and stopped Chaos from seeping in would also prevent them from bringing in any external forces.

I repeat, I'm not asserting this is the case. Just that with a modicum of effort and imagination, the two worlds can be relinked. Whether or not GW will ever choose to do so? Who knows.

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
I'm aware of that. You're mixing things up. Here's a vague timeline to help understand:-

-Old Ones create Orks, Eldar, Humans, and everything else.
-For whatever reason (being inscrutable aliens) they choose to shove them all on a planet along with barriers to entry, and see what happens.
-Old Ones fall, the Eldar still can't/choose not to access this world.
-The Birth of Slaanesh happens, Eldar homeworld are enveloped in what is known as the Eye of Terror. Meanwhile, the barriers the Old Ones left are strong enough to partially withstand the birth of Slaanesh. Aenarion and the rest throw back the Daemon hordes, Chaos is checked at the poles.
-Several thousand years of WFB history happens on this planet, which is now floating around in the middle of the Eye of Terror, with the Chaos Gods trying to break in using their various pawns.
-They finally succeed during the End Times, the WFB planet is suddenly enveloped by the maelstrom of Chaos known as the Eye of Terror.
-Various little bubble dimensions are then established as per the Age of Sigmar fluff.

Oh I see. You didn't invent several thousand years then. Just a very questionable world that somehow went unnoticed in the centre of the Eldar Empire for who knows how long. What stops the bubble dimensions being invaded by Chaos Marines?

One could assume that the barriers/mechanisms invented by the Old Ones that prevented the Eldar from intruding after the Old Ones vanished, and stopped Chaos from seeping in would also prevent them from bringing in any external forces.

I repeat, I'm not asserting this is the case. Just that with a modicum of effort and imagination, the two worlds can be relinked.

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Caesar3594 wrote:
Alright so I did some more reasearch and you guys are half right. The Great Horned Rat is different from Malal

but Malal and Malice are the same and Malice is now 40k canon.


Here is ze proof


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Malice
"led the Chapter to declare itself to be both enemies of the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos even as it took up service to the Renegade Chaos God Malal, also called Malice, the Hierarch of Anarchy and Terror."

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Malal
"Malice was created for 3rd edition Warhammer 40000 in the Chaos Space Marine Codex. An axe identical to Kaleb Daark's is described which was created to kill other beings of Chaos, and a Chaos Space Marine Chapter in Malal's colors was shown under the name "Sons of Malice"."

Lexicanum and 1d4chan are fan-made wikis. They are not canon, they are not always correct in information and thus they are not proof of anything. Proof only comes from canon sources.
Malice and Malal are not the same because of copyright reasons. GW is no longer allowed to use Malal. Malice is 40k canon, Malal isn't.
Malice in 40k does share some similarities with Malal from WHFB, but there really aren't much details given on Malice, who only has appeared once in a BL book. He may not even be an actual god, given the fact that unlike the real gods, Malice could be summoned into the material realm similar to a daemon. This suggests that Malice is an independent warp spirit or daemon rather than a being akin to the Chaos Gods.

Man you can't just discredit my links without even clicking on them. They pages themselves have citations to other sources were they got the information at the bottom of each page.

Also yes you are right in him being able to manifest himself in the material world after 11 son of malice battle-brothers sacrificed themselves to do so, so he's probably just a unalinged Greator daemon of some sort ((even though those aren't supposed to exist))

However despite copyright bulls hit Mall and Malice are the same. THEY SHARE THE SAME HALF BLACK HALF WHITE SKULL SYMBOL FOR GODS SAKE. They are definitely the same, just like green stuff and simple green are the same thing but have different names now because of copytights

pm713 wrote:

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

Hi, welcome to Warhammer. You must be new here. Let me tell you about the time a space marine tank surfed into battle, a bloke called Draigo carved his name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, and the Blood Angels and Necrons became best mates to fight off some Tyranids...

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

Hi, welcome to Warhammer. You must be new here. Let me tell you about the time a space marine tank surfed into battle, a bloke called Draigo carved his name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, and the Blood Angels and Necrons became best mates to fight off some Tyranids...

There's unrealistic and there's flat out bad. The first is fine the second is not.

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

Hi, welcome to Warhammer. You must be new here. Let me tell you about the time a space marine tank surfed into battle, a bloke called Draigo carved his name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, and the Blood Angels and Necrons became best mates to fight off some Tyranids...

There's unrealistic and there's flat out bad. The first is fine the second is not.

Let me tell you about the Necron machine which can single-handedly destroy entire solar systems at the touch of a button....

Seriously mate, there are so many more vastly implausible things in the Warhammer Universe that the above timeline could be made canon tomorrow and it wouldn't look particularly bad. The concept of some Old One barrier preserving the WFB world is really quite tame, and could easily be made a cracking read if handled properly. You can come up with a dozen reasons why Chaos didn't bring traitor marines to the WFB world, ranging from the aforementioned barriers, to them literally just choosing not to (Gods are fickle). The fluff elements are all in place. If you really find something of that level 'unrealistic', then warhammer fluff will be a constant disappointment to you, and you should go back to hard sci-fi.

 Caesar3594 wrote:
OH YES HOW SILLY OF ME!

Well I'm glad you've grasped that at least.

 Caesar3594 wrote:
Allright Mr. "I can use big big philpsphy words" there no hypothesis here, I'm not guessing anything based of the most basic first assertion of data before experimenting more.

Also I think we all have a little bit of postmodernism considering were arguing about a universe 38thpusand years in the future.

Since I, at least, understand the concepts expressed by such terms - concepts like how the burden of proof works, for instance - it takes me no more effort to be right than it does for you to be wrong. Moreover, we're actually arguing over a handful of stories and sourcebooks published by GW over the last few decades. Now this might well be be a pointless activity, but how is my bothering to read them more pointless than rehashing spurious fanwank as you have been doing?

Malal has never been part of 40k continuity. He had disappeeared from WFB/WFRP as a result of the dispute over his ownership between GW and Mills/Wagner before Rogue Trader was even published. Now it would be perfectly reasonable to infer that Malice was intended by GW's writers to slyly reference this vanished figure from the early days, but that is not the same as 'Malal is Malice in different languages'.

And no, there is no absolutely no viable reason to presuppose either one to be another name for the Horned Rat.

Bro, you are liked 3 posts of mine behind.

I have admitted that op and you were wrong about malice and the great honed rat being the same, but have proven that malice and Malal indeed are the same and malice exists in the 40k universe canonically. The Sons of Malice themselves are living(in the 40k sense) proof.

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

Hi, welcome to Warhammer. You must be new here. Let me tell you about the time a space marine tank surfed into battle, a bloke called Draigo carved his name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, and the Blood Angels and Necrons became best mates to fight off some Tyranids...

There's unrealistic and there's flat out bad. The first is fine the second is not.

Let me tell you about the Necron machine which can single-handedly destroy entire solar systems at the touch of a button....

Seriously mate, there are so many more vastly implausible things in the Warhammer Universe that the above timeline could be made canon tomorrow and it wouldn't look particularly bad. The concept of some Old One barrier preserving the WFB world is really quite tame, and could easily be made a cracking read if handled properly. You can come up with a dozen reasons why Chaos didn't bring traitor marines to the WFB world, ranging from the aforementioned barriers, to them literally just choosing not to (Gods are fickle). The fluff elements are all in place. If you really find something of that level 'unrealistic', then warhammer fluff will be a constant disappointment to you, and you should go back to hard sci-fi.

Literally everything you bring up is terrible.

Like I said. Unrealistic is fine. Bad writing is not.

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

Hi, welcome to Warhammer. You must be new here. Let me tell you about the time a space marine tank surfed into battle, a bloke called Draigo carved his name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, and the Blood Angels and Necrons became best mates to fight off some Tyranids...

There's unrealistic and there's flat out bad. The first is fine the second is not.

Let me tell you about the Necron machine which can single-handedly destroy entire solar systems at the touch of a button....

Seriously mate, there are so many more vastly implausible things in the Warhammer Universe that the above timeline could be made canon tomorrow and it wouldn't look particularly bad. The concept of some Old One barrier preserving the WFB world is really quite tame, and could easily be made a cracking read if handled properly. You can come up with a dozen reasons why Chaos didn't bring traitor marines to the WFB world, ranging from the aforementioned barriers, to them literally just choosing not to (Gods are fickle). The fluff elements are all in place. If you really find something of that level 'unrealistic', then warhammer fluff will be a constant disappointment to you, and you should go back to hard sci-fi.

Literally everything you bring up is terrible.

Like I said. Unrealistic is fine. Bad writing is not.

Terrible from what perspective? Why is it terrible? I'm an avid sci-fi reader, both hard and soft. I've been immersed in 40K lore for over a decade. I can't say I find anything unreasonable with the concept. It could be pulled off badly, but it could be pulled off well also. I'm really not sure how you can call a rough conceptual outline on how WFB could exist within the Eye 'bad writing', considering there isn't much...well, writing!

If there was some massive clash within the fluff, I'd be more understanding, but from what I can see, there's a dozen odd ways it could be executed in line with established canon, some awful, some entertaining, and some perfectly good. For example, regarding your (only) raised issue regarding Traitor Marines not showing up; you could go to Draigo levels of stupidity and have Leman Russ singlehandedly fighting all the Traitor Legions before they can enter the region of the eye where WFB is located, to a far more interesting idea of the WFB Gods themselves interfering with travel to the region in the Eye as warp entities themselves, to the perfectly logical concept of Old One tech having held them off until this point. The possibilities are literally endless, and whilst some are good and some are bad, decrying writing that hasn't been written as 'unrealistic' strikes me as absurd.

The point made, is that if GW wants to link the two, it could do so tomorrow with reasonable success and no substantial fluff overhauls required. Ultimately, that's all I was trying to demonstrate.

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

Hi, welcome to Warhammer. You must be new here. Let me tell you about the time a space marine tank surfed into battle, a bloke called Draigo carved his name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, and the Blood Angels and Necrons became best mates to fight off some Tyranids...

There's unrealistic and there's flat out bad. The first is fine the second is not.

Let me tell you about the Necron machine which can single-handedly destroy entire solar systems at the touch of a button....

Seriously mate, there are so many more vastly implausible things in the Warhammer Universe that the above timeline could be made canon tomorrow and it wouldn't look particularly bad. The concept of some Old One barrier preserving the WFB world is really quite tame, and could easily be made a cracking read if handled properly. You can come up with a dozen reasons why Chaos didn't bring traitor marines to the WFB world, ranging from the aforementioned barriers, to them literally just choosing not to (Gods are fickle). The fluff elements are all in place. If you really find something of that level 'unrealistic', then warhammer fluff will be a constant disappointment to you, and you should go back to hard sci-fi.

Literally everything you bring up is terrible.

Like I said. Unrealistic is fine. Bad writing is not.

Terrible from what perspective? Why is it terrible? I'm an avid sci-fi reader, both hard and soft. I've been immersed in 40K lore for over a decade. I can't say I find anything unreasonable with the concept. It could be pulled off badly, but it could be pulled off well also. I'm really not sure how you can call a rough conceptual outline on how WFB could exist within the Eye 'bad writing', considering there isn't much...well, writing!

If there was some massive clash within the fluff, I'd be more understanding, but from what I can see, there's a dozen odd ways it could be executed in line with established canon, some awful, some entertaining, and some perfectly good. For example, regarding your (only) raised issue regarding Traitor Marines not showing up; you could go to Draigo levels of stupidity and have Leman Russ singlehandedly fighting all the Traitor Legions before they can enter the region of the eye where WFB is located, to a far more interesting idea of the WFB Gods themselves interfering with travel to the region in the Eye as warp entities themselves, to the perfectly logical concept of Old One tech having held them off until this point. The possibilities are literally endless, and whilst some are good and some are bad, decrying writing that hasn't been written as 'unrealistic' strikes me as absurd.

The point made, is that if GW wants to link the two, it could do so tomorrow with reasonable success and no substantial fluff overhauls required. Ultimately, that's all I was trying to demonstrate.

It doesn't seem dumb that an entire planet was hidden at the centre of one of the most powerful empires ever, then it conveniently survived a gigantic psychic explosion because of some mechanism, then it breaks to allow the Warp in but doesn't break enough to let outsiders in and it makes incredibly large bubble worlds that conveniently nobody can find or enter. The only alternative you've provided is that there are these gods who somehow haven't been killed by Chaos or something despite being a huge obstacle to them.

pm713 wrote:

It doesn't seem dumb that an entire planet

A planet made by a race that's widely understood within the 40K fluff to have essentially been the most powerful, with control over the warp and lifeforms to the extent that they managed to bio-engineer the Eldar into existence and create the Webway.

was hidden at the centre of one of the most powerful empires ever,

It could be hidden. It could have been that the Eldar simply refrained from touching it because it was an experiment of the Old Ones to see how races mixed on a primitive level, or because they saw the Lizardmen as the true inhabitors of the planet and spared it out of respect to the Old Ones. Or many other potential scenarios. Plenty of options to go with. The Eldar have strange priorities at the best of times.

then it conveniently survived a gigantic psychic explosion because of some mechanism,

We've seen warp inhibitors in the form of the Necron Pylons on Cadia, and the Untouchables. It's perfectly within the fluff to imagine a planet spanning network engineered by the Old Ones which could achieve a similar effect.

then it breaks to allow the Warp in

Yup. Birth of Slaanesh was pretty cataclysmic. Untouchable fields have been shown to be overwhelmable with sufficient warp power, and that was one of the biggest warp bangs. Makes sense even the toughest anti-warp effect could be partially cancelled out or damaged.

but doesn't break enough to let outsiders in

Again, as I pointed out, you could pull out a dozen reasons for that, some good, some bad. That's the meaning of 'rough conceptual outline'. If you're decrying those specific examples, you're missing the point, namely that the rough outline could be filled in in such a way as to be compatible with existing fluff.

and it makes incredibly large bubble worlds that conveniently nobody can find or enter.

That would take us into Age of Sigmar, and I'm sure something could be thrown together to justify it. The Gods would be the logical starting place but there are other options.

If you really find this all so hard to digest as a bunch of unlikely circumstances, you should go and read the Ciaphas Cain books. Those have unlikely circumstances occurring every other chapter!

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

It doesn't seem dumb that an entire planet

A planet made by a race that's widely understood within the 40K fluff to have essentially been the most powerful, with control over the warp and lifeforms to the extent that they managed to bio-engineer the Eldar into existence and create the Webway.

was hidden at the centre of one of the most powerful empires ever,

It could be hidden. It could have been that the Eldar simply refrained from touching it because it was an experiment of the Old Ones to see how races mixed on a primitive level, or because they saw the Lizardmen as the true inhabitors of the planet and spared it out of respect to the Old Ones. Or many other potential scenarios. Plenty of options to go with. The Eldar have strange priorities at the best of times.

then it conveniently survived a gigantic psychic explosion because of some mechanism,

We've seen warp inhibitors in the form of the Necron Pylons on Cadia, and the Untouchables. It's perfectly within the fluff to imagine a planet spanning network engineered by the Old Ones which could achieve a similar effect.

then it breaks to allow the Warp in

Yup. Birth of Slaanesh was pretty cataclysmic. Untouchable fields have been shown to be overwhelmable with sufficient warp power, and that was one of the biggest warp bangs. Makes sense even the toughest anti-warp effect could be partially cancelled out or damaged.

but doesn't break enough to let outsiders in

Again, as I pointed out, you could pull out a dozen reasons for that, some good, some bad. That's the meaning of 'rough conceptual outline'. If you're decrying those specific examples, you're missing the point, namely that the rough outline could be filled in in such a way as to be compatible with existing fluff.

and it makes incredibly large bubble worlds that conveniently nobody can find or enter.

Have you read the dakka posting rules yet? If not, click to open them in a new window.

That would take us into Age of Sigmar, and I'm sure something could be thrown together to justify it. The Gods would be the logical starting place but there are other options.

If you really find this all so hard to digest as a bunch of unlikely circumstances, you should go and read the Ciaphas Cain books. Those have unlikely circumstances occurring every other chapter!

1. There's power and there's ridiculous.
2. You're right in a society that eventually began to ignore their own gods and have respect for nothing there was that one planet they completely respected because it had primitive lizard people on it.
3. So for some reason the Old Ones made technology that mainly hurts them. Okay.
4. So it gets overwhelmed but not at the start where it's worse but a long time after when it is much better?
5.Right. It breaks enough to let in the Warp and Daemons but not Chaos who travel through the Warp.
6. Or you could not "throw something together" and have two seperate but coherent and decent universes.

Didn't read whole tread. Am not lore-master.

Just because something existed in the warp doesn't mean it existed in the form known as that god. It may have been an unconcentrated essence, but that is not what you call slannesh.

Why was that potential power not consumed? Why would something like that wait, confronted with hostility at its birth simply out of loathing. That loathing existed and didn't exist as well. It's a little silly.

"Malal/Malice/The Great Horned Rat are all them same entity under different names being worshiped by different races"

I can somewhat agree, slannesh is concept ,given form by the power races give to it. The concept remains the same, though with exceptions and differences provided by the hosts. But given what I know, its 2-forms that are not identical.

And to say Chaos would have to locate the races is silly. Chaos feeds off them already.

I'm just curious and probably wrong.

The 2 are not in the same universe. Why do people want that? What is the benefit? Planescape warhammer edition? Even Planescape knew when to quit.

pm713 wrote:

1. There's power and there's ridiculous.

I repeat. Welcome to Warhammer. The backflipping Terminators are on your right, the lasguns which somehow penetrate SM armour are on the left, and if you walk through the open door, you'll see Calgar punching an Avatar in the face and KOing it. Please leave a donation on your way out.

You're right in a society that eventually began to ignore their own gods and have respect for nothing there was that one planet they completely respected because it had primitive lizard people on it.

Waitaminute. You're claiming the idea of the Eldar venerating their creators is dumb? I hate to break it to you, but there's a lot of Eldar myths which would prove you otherwise.

Not to mention that trying to secondguess Eldar motivations and say what they wouldn't do is actually five times dumber fluff wise than anything said yet.

3. So for some reason the Old Ones made technology that mainly hurts them. Okay.

You know, nukes can hurt the USA as well. Why on earth would they do research into them or manufacture them? It couldn't be in case their enemies can use/will use it against them, or to develop countermeasures, or the hope for tehcnological spin-off into alternative civilian fields, or various other reasons.

Seriously?

4. So it gets overwhelmed but not at the start where it's worse but a long time after when it is much better?

The fact that the devices of the Old Ones were keeping Chaos out is already canon. You do realise that they only break completely eventually when things go wrong within?

I can fire a fairly heavy round at a tank from the outside and dent it, or I can do the same from the inside and effectively render it useless. That's a fairly common problem with technology, stuff stops working when it gets nailed with stuff it wasn't designed for. In this case, it was overloaded slightly by Slaanesh, but it took the slow wearing away within the internal WFB world to finally break it for good. Again, pretty common real world concepts. For someone concerned about reality in fiction, you seem to have difficulty picturing appropriate parallels.

Or you could not "throw something together" and have two seperate but coherent and decent universes.

Sure. But that wasn't the point of the thought exercise now, was it?

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

1. There's power and there's ridiculous.

I repeat. Welcome to Warhammer. The backflipping Terminators are on your right, the lasguns which somehow penetrate SM armour are on the left, and if you walk through the open door, you'll see Calgar punching an Avatar in the face and KOing it. Please leave a donation on your way out.

You're right in a society that eventually began to ignore their own gods and have respect for nothing there was that one planet they completely respected because it had primitive lizard people on it.

Waitaminute. You're claiming the idea of the Eldar venerating their creators is dumb? I hate to break it to you, but there's a lot of Eldar myths which would prove you otherwise.

Not to mention that trying to secondguess Eldar motivations and say what they wouldn't do is actually five times dumber fluff wise than anything said yet.

3. So for some reason the Old Ones made technology that mainly hurts them. Okay.

You know, nukes can hurt the USA as well. Why on earth would they do research into them or manufacture? It couldn't be in case their enemies can use/will use it against them, or to develop countermeasures, or the hope for tehcnological spin-off into alternative civilian fields, or various other reasons.

Seriously?

4. So it gets overwhelmed but not at the start where it's worse but a long time after when it is much better?

The fact that the devices of the Old Ones were keeping Chaos out is already canon. You do realise that they only break completely eventually when things go wrong within?

I can fire a fairly heavy round at a tank from the outside and dent it, or I can do the same from the inside and effectively render it useless. That's a fairly common problem with tehcnology, stuff stops working when it gets nailed with stuff it wasn't designed for. In this case, it was overloaded slightly by Slaanesh, but it took the slow wearing away within the internal WFB world to finally break it for good. Again, pretty common real world concepts. For someone concerned about reality in fiction, you seem to have difficulty picturing appropriate parallels.

Or you could not "throw something together" and have two seperate but coherent and decent universes.

Sure. But that wasn't the point of the thought exercise now, was it?

1. I repeat there is a difference between unrealistic and BAD. You keep citing BAD writing.
2. Oh yeah those myths that were completely ignored and mocked! I can really see all the respect there. It's dumb to assume an incredibly arrogant and selfish culture with unrivalled power wouldn't think twice about taking a planet where the most powerful force is medieval humans?
3.Because they hurt the enemy. A device blocking the Warp doesn't threaten a race that doesn't use the Warp much does it?
4. You seem to have missed the point a little. It's odd that it only breaks way after the part that would damage it when there's no reason for this.

Maybe because even now, eldar see humans as monkeys, and that if they even saw medieval level humans they would probably just laugh and move on.

Would be like coming across an ant hill, sure i could destroy it, but why waste the time.

They don't have to waste time. They send automata at it and hey presto new world for them with 0 effort.

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

1. There's power and there's ridiculous.

I repeat. Welcome to Warhammer. The backflipping Terminators are on your right, the lasguns which somehow penetrate SM armour are on the left, and if you walk through the open door, you'll see Calgar punching an Avatar in the face and KOing it. Please leave a donation on your way out.

You're right in a society that eventually began to ignore their own gods and have respect for nothing there was that one planet they completely respected because it had primitive lizard people on it.

Waitaminute. You're claiming the idea of the Eldar venerating their creators is dumb? I hate to break it to you, but there's a lot of Eldar myths which would prove you otherwise.

Not to mention that trying to secondguess Eldar motivations and say what they wouldn't do is actually five times dumber fluff wise than anything said yet.

3. So for some reason the Old Ones made technology that mainly hurts them. Okay.

You know, nukes can hurt the USA as well. Why on earth would they do research into them or manufacture? It couldn't be in case their enemies can use/will use it against them, or to develop countermeasures, or the hope for tehcnological spin-off into alternative civilian fields, or various other reasons.

Seriously?

4. So it gets overwhelmed but not at the start where it's worse but a long time after when it is much better?

The fact that the devices of the Old Ones were keeping Chaos out is already canon. You do realise that they only break completely eventually when things go wrong within?

I can fire a fairly heavy round at a tank from the outside and dent it, or I can do the same from the inside and effectively render it useless. That's a fairly common problem with tehcnology, stuff stops working when it gets nailed with stuff it wasn't designed for. In this case, it was overloaded slightly by Slaanesh, but it took the slow wearing away within the internal WFB world to finally break it for good. Again, pretty common real world concepts. For someone concerned about reality in fiction, you seem to have difficulty picturing appropriate parallels.

Or you could not "throw something together" and have two seperate but coherent and decent universes.

Sure. But that wasn't the point of the thought exercise now, was it?

1. I repeat there is a difference between unrealistic and BAD. You keep citing BAD writing.
2. Oh yeah those myths that were completely ignored and mocked! I can really see all the respect there. It's dumb to assume an incredibly arrogant and selfish culture with unrivalled power wouldn't think twice about taking a planet where the most powerful force is medieval humans?
3.Because they hurt the enemy. A device blocking the Warp doesn't threaten a race that doesn't use the Warp much does it?
4. You seem to have missed the point a little. It's odd that it only breaks way after the part that would damage it when there's no reason for this.

On this wholle point of hiding a single world in an empire in 40k, it has been done before in canon to both greater and lesser degrees. For example as of 4e with CraftWorld, there was I believe Ulthie Craftworld hiding in the Sol System between Mars and earth. An Eldar craftworld about the size of Terra to boot. From just a general Sci-Fi stand point this is a pretty staple idea, with many many ways to pull it off long before you through in "magic"(WFB) or extreme Psychers (40K) in to the mix. Simply blocking WebWays would effectively keep the Eldar out, and extreme warpstorms, reference Old Night as an example, have been used to prevent warp travel to planets all the time in 40k. So that aspect of the proposal is by 40k fiction/canon standards at least on par with average.

AS to why the Eldar might ignore some random planet? One word for you: Farseer. If the Farseers say no touchie, the eldar have this tendency to keep hands off.

Nothing in the proposed "canon" would have an adverse effect on the Old Ones.

barnowl wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

1. There's power and there's ridiculous.

I repeat. Welcome to Warhammer. The backflipping Terminators are on your right, the lasguns which somehow penetrate SM armour are on the left, and if you walk through the open door, you'll see Calgar punching an Avatar in the face and KOing it. Please leave a donation on your way out.

You're right in a society that eventually began to ignore their own gods and have respect for nothing there was that one planet they completely respected because it had primitive lizard people on it.

Waitaminute. You're claiming the idea of the Eldar venerating their creators is dumb? I hate to break it to you, but there's a lot of Eldar myths which would prove you otherwise.

Not to mention that trying to secondguess Eldar motivations and say what they wouldn't do is actually five times dumber fluff wise than anything said yet.

3. So for some reason the Old Ones made technology that mainly hurts them. Okay.

You know, nukes can hurt the USA as well. Why on earth would they do research into them or manufacture? It couldn't be in case their enemies can use/will use it against them, or to develop countermeasures, or the hope for tehcnological spin-off into alternative civilian fields, or various other reasons.

Seriously?

4. So it gets overwhelmed but not at the start where it's worse but a long time after when it is much better?

The fact that the devices of the Old Ones were keeping Chaos out is already canon. You do realise that they only break completely eventually when things go wrong within?

I can fire a fairly heavy round at a tank from the outside and dent it, or I can do the same from the inside and effectively render it useless. That's a fairly common problem with tehcnology, stuff stops working when it gets nailed with stuff it wasn't designed for. In this case, it was overloaded slightly by Slaanesh, but it took the slow wearing away within the internal WFB world to finally break it for good. Again, pretty common real world concepts. For someone concerned about reality in fiction, you seem to have difficulty picturing appropriate parallels.

Or you could not "throw something together" and have two seperate but coherent and decent universes.

Sure. But that wasn't the point of the thought exercise now, was it?

1. I repeat there is a difference between unrealistic and BAD. You keep citing BAD writing.
2. Oh yeah those myths that were completely ignored and mocked! I can really see all the respect there. It's dumb to assume an incredibly arrogant and selfish culture with unrivalled power wouldn't think twice about taking a planet where the most powerful force is medieval humans?
3.Because they hurt the enemy. A device blocking the Warp doesn't threaten a race that doesn't use the Warp much does it?
4. You seem to have missed the point a little. It's odd that it only breaks way after the part that would damage it when there's no reason for this.

On this wholle point of hiding a single world in an empire in 40k, it has been done before in canon to both greater and lesser degrees. For example as of 4e with CraftWorld, there was I believe Ulthie Craftworld hiding in the Sol System between Mars and earth. An Eldar craftworld about the size of Terra to boot. From just a general Sci-Fi stand point this is a pretty staple idea, with many many ways to pull it off long before you through in "magic"(WFB) or extreme Psychers (40K) in to the mix. Simply blocking WebWays would effectively keep the Eldar out, and extreme warpstorms, reference Old Night as an example, have been used to prevent warp travel to planets all the time in 40k. So that aspect of the proposal is by 40k fiction/canon standards at least on par with average.

AS to why the Eldar might ignore some random planet? One word for you: Farseer. If the Farseers say no touchie, the eldar have this tendency to keep hands off.

Nothing in the proposed "canon" would have an adverse effect on the Old Ones.

You're seriously comparing the incompetent IoM to the Eldar Empire.....
You realise that the Eldar do open blocked gateways?

I'd be very impressed considering that there weren't Farseers at the time.

pm713 wrote:
1. I repeat there is a difference between unrealistic and BAD. You keep citing BAD writing.

And I'm saying that this 'writing' hasn't been written. You cannot assess the quality of what does not exist. The point I am attempting to drill home here, is that it is entirely feasible to write the WFB world into the 40K world with a minimum of effort utilising technologies, races, and motivations that already exist.

Whether that writing ends up being bad or good depends upon both the author and reader.

2. Oh yeah those myths that were completely ignored and mocked!

Yes, because the Eldar frequently get drunk and make ribald jokes about Isha.

Not to mention that you're conflating pre-Fall Eldar with post-Fall ones. It would be simplicity itself to devise a reason why pre-fall Eldar might avoid a planet. It could be being watched over by a religious eldar sect or it could be hidden by another one which enjoys watching the inhabitants through a galactic telescope for pleasure. Who knows? We don't know much about pre-fall Eldar, so trying to scoff and say they would or wouldn't do something is already unrealistic fluff because the fluff required for that knowledge does not exist. The fact society split into three is known, but that could easily be divided further, in the same way the Ork Klans or IG regiments get added.

3.Because they hurt the enemy. A device blocking the Warp doesn't threaten a race that doesn't use the Warp much does it?

No, but it might have been a trial run for a new enemy of the Old Ones that utilised warp technology. Say, the Enslavers.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Enslavers
Heck, they might even develop that sort of technology just in case one of their own races *coughEldarcough* turned on them. Again, a dozen perfectly legitimate reasons can be contrived and built into a coherent whole by a competent writer.

4. You seem to have missed the point a little. It's odd that it only breaks way after the part that would damage it when there's no reason for this.

Errr.....the End Times aren't considered enough of a reason?

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:
1. I repeat there is a difference between unrealistic and BAD. You keep citing BAD writing.

And I'm saying that this 'writing' hasn't been written. You cannot assess the quality of what does not exist. The point I am attempting to drill home here, is that it is entirely feasible to write the WFB world into the 40K world with a minimum of effort utilising technologies, races, and motivations that already exist.

Whether that writing ends up being bad or good depends upon both the author and reader.

2. Oh yeah those myths that were completely ignored and mocked!

Yes, because the Eldar frequently get drunk and make ribald jokes about Isha.

Not to mention that you're conflating pre-Fall Eldar with post-Fall ones. It would be simplicity itself to devise a reason why pre-fall Eldar might avoid a planet. It could be being watched over by a religious eldar sect or it could be hidden by another one which enjoys watching the inhabitants through a galactic telescope for pleasure. Who knows? We don't know much about pre-fall Eldar, so trying to scoff and say they would or wouldn't do something is already unrealistic fluff because the fluff required for that knowledge does not exist. The fact society split into three is known, but that could easily be divided further, in the same way the Ork Klans or IG regiments get added.

3.Because they hurt the enemy. A device blocking the Warp doesn't threaten a race that doesn't use the Warp much does it?

No, but it might have been a trial run for a new enemy of the Old Ones that utilised warp technology. Say, the Enslavers.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Enslavers
Heck, they might even develop that sort of technology just in case one of their own races *coughEldarcough* turned on them. Again, a dozen perfectly legitimate reasons can be contrived and built into a coherent whole by a competent writer.

4. You seem to have missed the point a little. It's odd that it only breaks way after the part that would damage it when there's no reason for this.

Errr.....the End Times aren't considered enough of a reason?

Your ideas are based entirely on unlikely things happening though. That is not how good writing begins. If I wrote a novel about Corax coming out of the Warp and single handedly solving every problem in a week then no matter how nice my writing is it would be bad.
You're talking about Eldar as they were at the Fall. Before that we know what they were like and we can make reasonable assumptions about their behaviour.

Say the enemy that didn't exist until about the time they were beaten.

The End Times are essentially an invasion of a medieval period army. It's a pretty bad mechanism that gets broken by cannons going off somewhere on a planet.

pm713 wrote:

Your ideas are based entirely on unlikely things happening though. That is not how good writing begins.

Blimey mate, how likely was it two hobbits would get to Mordor?Or that a young girl playing Hide and Seek would fall into a winter wonderland illuminated by one lamp post? That alone proves that generalised statement wrong.

When you read this stuff, you agree to a certain suspension of belief, the hero always has to get there in time, and anti-grav devices have to work. The only reason this would be any more unlikely than literally thousands of other things in the 40K world (from Cegorach surviving to Slaydo being able to conquer so many worlds) is if the fluff already established gave a flat out reason as to why it couldn't happen. Which it hasn't, as we can see by the fact that you're flailing around and just keep repeating yourself and ignoring things like The Enslavers which completely refute the contradictions you're making.

Heck, the fluff hasn't even given a reason as to why it would be unlikely, despite the fact you keep claiming it is. Why would it be unlikely? What makes it more unlikely than Fenris having smegging huge monsters all over it? Why would it be more unlikely than Horus falling to the Warp? The only reason you seem to be able to provide, is that you personally, do not like the idea, and think you would find it 'bad writing'. Even though it hasn't been written.

It's unlikely because we have to ignore the Eldar Empire, think of a reason for the Old Ones to seperate out a planet and make up a reason it isn't affected by the Eye of Terror.

pm713 wrote:
It's unlikely because we have to ignore the Eldar Empire, think of a reason for the Old Ones to seperate out a planet and make up a reason it isn't affected by the Eye of Terror.

Because warp tom foolery.

There is no reason, its the old ones, they also made the Korks with out any means to stop them after they finished their job, they are not very good at what they do.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

pm713 wrote:
It's unlikely because we have to ignore the Eldar Empire, think of a reason for the Old Ones to seperate out a planet and make up a reason it isn't affected by the Eye of Terror.

Because warp tom foolery.

There is no reason, its the old ones, they also made the Korks with out any means to stop them after they finished their job, they are not very good at what they do.

Mind control via psychic powers. The Imperium made a device that blew the heads off Xenos with psychic power. Pretty sure the Old Ones can do that.

pm713 wrote:
It's unlikely because we have to ignore the Eldar Empire, think of a reason for the Old Ones to seperate out a planet and make up a reason it isn't affected by the Eye of Terror.

As stated above, all of these can have perfectly reasonable explanations, making the scenario no less likely than practically every event in 40K from the Horus Heresy onwards.

Seriously, I could raise objections like these to the Heresy itself.

'Yeah, but first you have to invent a way for the Chaos Gods to influence the Materium, and then come up with a way to injure a superhuman Primarch, and then he has to somehow persuade like half of his brothers to turn on their father, and then somehow they have not be caught whilst planning it....'

The above is an unlikely scenario using your method of reasoning. It still happened.

The 'writing' you're searching for is a plot, or a central narrative that ties the occurrences together in a coherent and believable fashion. What precludes something from being believable is a clash with already established fluff, or an event that is so ridiculous it just makes no sense (thus disrupting the coherence, and in turn the believability).

We've already established the fluff is of little issue (it can be tailored reasonably well, the framework is there), and by the standards of the 40K world? The event itself is quite tame. So actually, I strongly oppose your assertion that the series of events required to combine the two worlds would be a particularly unlikely occurrence by 40K standards. I've given solid fluff reasons for many things above, in many cases, multiple plausible ways it could be done whilst sticking firmly to the canon.

You are of course, free to disagree, but I don't think you're going to change my mind here unless you wheel out some bigger fluff cannons than what you've deployed so far.

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:
It's unlikely because we have to ignore the Eldar Empire, think of a reason for the Old Ones to seperate out a planet and make up a reason it isn't affected by the Eye of Terror.

As stated above, all of these can have perfectly reasonable explanations, making the scenario no less likely than practically every event in 40K from the Horus Heresy onwards.

Seriously, I could raise objections like these to the Heresy itself.

'Yeah, but first you have to invent a way for the Chaos Gods to influence the Materium, and then come up with a way to injure a superhuman Primarch, and then he has to somehow persuade like half of his brothers to turn on their father, and then somehow they have not be caught whilst planning it....'

The above is an unlikely scenario using your method of reasoning. It still happened.

The 'writing' you're searching for is a plot, or a central narrative that ties the occurrences together in a coherent and believable fashion. What precludes something from being believable is a clash with already established fluff, or an event that is so ridiculous it just makes no sense (thus disrupting the coherence, and in turn the believability).

We've already established the fluff is of little issue (it can be tailored reasonably well, the framework is there), and by the standards of the 40K world? The event itself is quite tame. So actually, I strongly oppose your assertion that the series of events required to combine the two worlds would be a particularly unlikely occurrence by 40K standards. I've given solid fluff reasons for many things above, in many cases, multiple plausible ways it could be done whilst sticking firmly to the canon.

You are of course, free to disagree, but I don't think you're going to change my mind here unless you wheel out some bigger fluff cannons than what you've deployed so far.

I think we should just agree to disagree here. I don't think either of us will change our mind.

pm713 wrote:

I think we should just agree to disagree here. I don't think either of us will change our mind.

Probably an idea.

Have a good week squire.

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I think we should just agree to disagree here. I don't think either of us will change our mind.

Probably an idea.

Have a good week squire.

The same to you.