So what it says in the title, there is a lot of stuff in the 40k hobby, and a lot of it (in the eyes of certain viewers) can look really, really stupid. Whether it's an older model, a derpy face stulpt, a bad design in general, or just a design choice you don't like, what would you (visually not rules wise) change about 40k?
Personally I would change the possesed into something that looks less like demons in broken space marine cosplay.
That and changing the lids to a screw top on citadel paints...
Delete TWC's and Santa Logan from the existence of the game. Likewise Centurions. Simply poor concepts on general with goofy looking models.
On a more general note, plastic IG infantry all have looks on their faces that speak of painful constipation, and really look best when paired with a 3rd party kit head.
Also, I'd give the Hydra its enclosed turret back. It looks goofy without it.
Eliminate centurions. Expand weapon options for Terminators. Make a devastator terminator unit sort of like Tyrant Siege termies with a plethora of weapon options.
Eliminate Thunderwolf Calvary and Santa Grimnar. Yeah just... just no.
Make Wulfen into werewolf themed Space Marines rather than Space Marine themed werewolves.
Make plastic Vostroyans and get rid of Catachans. Redesign Cadians from the ground up to give them better proportions and less goofy faces. Add a female body or five.
Mutilators and Oblits should be a lot less fleshy looking. It looks bad and clashes with a lot of the CSM line.
The Taurox needs to go. Just go. Get out of here. You suck in every way. The Chimera is, was and always will be the Guard transport of choice.
Recut the CSM box and mix up the leg's armor marks for gods sake. Why do all them need to be Mk 6?
Redo all the resin aspect warriors to be more in line with the Harlequinns. They always looked kind of goofy. to me (Except the Scorpions) Especially the Warp Spiders.
The Stormsurge should be closed top. A personal nit pick of mine, I know, but this is my list so...
Update Sisters. Really, I find their face sculpts to be... dated. They unhelmeted ones have not aged well.
The question really is, what *wouldn't* you change?
I would start completely from scratch. I don't think there are any redeeming qualities to 40k as a game. I would save virtually nothing.
I would split the game into two separate games: a skirmish game that works up to roughly 1000-1500 points worth of models today, and a battle game for anything larger.
The skirmish game would probably draw on Bolt Action a lot for mechanics (I do realize Bolt Action has a lot of 40k in its DNA, but the suppression and random activation mechanics are worth stealing). This would be where you preserve some of the granular detail of equipping characters and the funky special rules that give 40k a lot of flavor. No flyers, no superheavies, somewhat restricted force selection options, heavy emphasis on infantry.
The battle game would draw on games like Epic: Armageddon. Alternating activation, suppression, heavy emphasis on units rather than models, lots of fixed numbers instead of charts. Rules would be very streamlined with little unit customization because the game isn't played at a scale where special snowflake rules matter, or we care who has what grenades. This is where you include superheavies and flyers that enter and leave the table in a single turn.
Basically 40k Edition 3.4 is hopeless. It's time for another reboot and I don't think much of anything is worth saving.
I would start completely from scratch. I don't think there are any redeeming qualities to 40k as a game. I would save virtually nothing.
I would split the game into two separate games: a skirmish game that works up to roughly 1000-1500 points worth of models today, and a battle game for anything larger.
The skirmish game would probably draw on Bolt Action a lot for mechanics (I do realize Bolt Action has a lot of 40k in its DNA, but the suppression and random activation mechanics are worth stealing). This would be where you preserve some of the granular detail of equipping characters and the funky special rules that give 40k a lot of flavor. No flyers, no superheavies, somewhat restricted force selection options, heavy emphasis on infantry.
The battle game would draw on games like Epic: Armageddon. Alternating activation, suppression, heavy emphasis on units rather than models, lots of fixed numbers instead of charts. Rules would be very streamlined with little unit customization because the game isn't played at a scale where special snowflake rules matter, or we care who has what grenades. This is where you include superheavies and flyers that enter and leave the table in a single turn.
Basically 40k Edition 3.4 is hopeless. It's time for another reboot and I don't think much of anything is worth saving.
I wouldn't bring such a heavy rebuilding to the game. In a sense, the core game's been great before it went kinda out of hand with,at first, the problems release alongside the 6th edition, and the incapability of 7th to fix it out nor to offer an attractive ruleset anymore. I really seeyour proposal as somewhat too radical.
I however agree on the point that, in so far Bolt Action was written by a former GW staff member it's very 40k thought at the very root, even though they actually manage, from this, to come with a very special and awesome ruleset from which the pin system would certainly suit well. Though I play IG, I'd especially like to see charges distances shifted into a reliable distance and combat results resulting in insta-destruction for the losing side unless it can rely on fearless or and they shall know no fear rules.
As far as heavy units, flyers and so on, I'd moderate your idea; In my view,40k would badly lack them if the were thrown out of the game, but it has to be something that keeps under control. The contrary of what we're currently witnessing with formation systems and the new release always composed of some gigantic stuff (and expensive.)
Ok while I did get some interesting responses, please read the first post. This is NOT a thread about rules or gameplay. This was about pure aesthetic designs of models and things in the fluff. Not gameplay wise.
thepowerfulwill wrote: Ok while I did get some interesting responses, please read the first post. This is NOT a thread about rules or gameplay. This was about pure aesthetic designs of models and things in the fluff. Not gameplay wise.
In that case, remove Tau, or change them entirely. The robots are cool, but way too stiff and blocky. I want Gundam, not LEGOs. Also, more Kroot and Auxillary choices please.
thepowerfulwill wrote: Ok while I did get some interesting responses, please read the first post. This is NOT a thread about rules or gameplay. This was about pure aesthetic designs of models and things in the fluff. Not gameplay wise.
Sorry about that.
I'm going to focus back on the subject right now then: SoB deserve a real book as a codex and some plastic miniatures. Also, I just thought about it, but it'd look sweet to have IGs with a kind of LMG in the squad's sprues, at least to please one's eyes.
Change the Taurox to a half-track. Change roughriders to either be riding dirt bikes or fantastical beasts, not horses.
Change Thunderwolves to grizzly bears.
Smash the mold for Santa Grimnar.
Get rid of centurions.
Bring back jet bikes for space marines.
Rearrange the driver compartment (overhead cab?) in the Rhino and chimera so the assault ramp is in the front, not the rear (like the Land Raider).
Bring back all flavors of Imperial Guard in plastic and make Cadian heads look less like derpy Starship trooper knockoffs.
Sprues for female head/torso swaps for marines (homebrew loyalists or Slaanesh!). Same for Imperial guard.
Sealed cockpit for Dreadknight and Stormsurge. Give the Stormsurge arms and get it out of the "taking a squat" pose.
Eldar Aspect warriors in plastic; redo the striking scorpions so they don't look like Predators and give Warp spiders a more streamlined appearance. Also, redo the Fire dragons masks and weapons so they can be easily distinguished from guardians.
Plastic Sisters? And while at it, perform a top-to-bottom redesign of the army with "Sister Sin" from the Rogue Trader book as inspiration - get rid of the "Catholic church on wheels" look and more towards a fast, sleek, fanatical lawbringer army with Judge Dredd overtones and healthy taste for prometheum and explosives.
I see a lot of good ideas here for removing dumb designs like Centurions and whatnot.
I'd take that one step further and go to an extreme here and say remove the 'heroic scale' BS. Redesign EVERYTHING so that they have real human proportions instead of giant fists and feet.
I'd like them to stop murdering the fluff with hack writers. There's a galaxy with a million or more worlds to base stories on and here's the Black Library butchering fluff that's been perfectly fine for 25 years.
I get that the target audience for this hobby is teenage boys, but some 40k publications directed at a more mature audience would be great.
thepowerfulwill wrote: Ok while I did get some interesting responses, please read the first post. This is NOT a thread about rules or gameplay. This was about pure aesthetic designs of models and things in the fluff. Not gameplay wise.
Sorry! I admit I skimmed the thread and then went on a rant.
If it's aesthetics and fluff we're talking about, there are two problems.
First is the Flanderization of different armies (where they're becoming distorted 1-dimensional caricatures based on a few iconic traits). Space Wolves now have wolf-everything and nonsensical frost weapons. Blood Angels have blood-everything and wings everywhere. Tau get nothing but bigger and bigger Gundams. And so on. This needs to stop.
Second, there's something wrong with GW's design studio. The models they put out look more like toys these days and less like, well, models. Look at the Centurions, the Storm Talon and Storm Raven, the Taurox - fat, chunky, squashed proportions, covered in bling, terrible aesthetics that don't belong in the setting. They look like someone was told "design an aircraft that carries a squad of marines and a dreadnought, but do it so it fits on 3 sprues, make sure a toddler can play with it, and you only have a week".
When GW does something simple like redesign a tactical sprue, they do fine. When they try to cram something new into their bloated setting, it's more hit than miss. The 40k range is looking more and more like GI Joe.
When GW does something simple like redesign a tactical sprue, they do fine. When they try to cram something new into their bloated setting, it's more hit than miss. The 40k range is looking more and more like GI Joe.
Is that a bad thing? Imperium as GI Joe, Eldar as Cobra, Orks as Dreadnoks, Tau as Transformers?
I found Marz's post very interesting, i'd like him to extend his thought as I'm not at all a Black Library reader and have stooped looking into WH40K's background for too long to have been able to notice this tend.
And i'd also love to see GW's staff totally restructured and changed as they just can't go on this way. I mean, for us players and/or painters...
Traditio wrote:Eliminate the Tau and Eldar from the game. Remove grav from the game. Remove IKs from the game.
Always entertaining to see you peddling the usual. Have fun
Peregrine wrote:Remove the Tyranids. Ugly models, awful fluff, just get rid of them and put them out of their misery.
I think a greater variety of models as well as a significant improvement to their fluff would be the better option when put against removing them outright. Explore the Hive Mind a little more, differentiate between the major Hive Fleets a bit more (which also coincides with more models), etc etc. GW just need to polish of their apparently very dusty thinking caps and do it.
MarsNZ wrote:I'd like them to stop murdering the fluff with hack writers. There's a galaxy with a million or more worlds to base stories on and here's the Black Library butchering fluff that's been perfectly fine for 25 years.
I get that the target audience for this hobby is teenage boys, but some 40k publications directed at a more mature audience would be great.
I agree wholeheartedly. It's good that they understand where a lot of their market is, but it'd be nice to see them realise that the rest of us form a significant portion of the market as well.
My Thoughts: Models-Wise: My personal top-of-the-list item is the current Wulfen models. I severely dislike how they've made them look. I look at artwork such as the piece in the spoiler below and then then models, then feel really sad that GW got it wrong haha
Spoiler:
Fluff-Wise: As I said above, the Tyranid fluff needs a big fix. They broken, uninteresting, and GW's easy way out if they ever want to destroy the 40K universe (in-fluff).
IllumiNini wrote: I think a greater variety of models as well as a significant improvement to their fluff would be the better option when put against removing them outright. Explore the Hive Mind a little more, differentiate between the major Hive Fleets a bit more (which also coincides with more models), etc etc. GW just need to polish of their apparently very dusty thinking caps and do it.
The problem is that the Tyranids are broken on a really fundamental level. All of their fluff nonsense about "absorbing DNA to adapt" and eating to fuel interstellar travel is just painful to read, and even when they aren't suffering from blatant plausibility issues they're by far the most boring faction. They don't have characters, you can't negotiate with them, you can't communicate with them, they're just going to relentlessly attack you until they're all dead or they eat you. They're a mindless force of nature, not characters in a story. And to fix these problems you'd have to scrap all of the existing fluff (along with all of the models, ideally) and invent a whole new faction that just happens to share the name.
IllumiNini wrote: I think a greater variety of models as well as a significant improvement to their fluff would be the better option when put against removing them outright. Explore the Hive Mind a little more, differentiate between the major Hive Fleets a bit more (which also coincides with more models), etc etc. GW just need to polish of their apparently very dusty thinking caps and do it.
The problem is that the Tyranids are broken on a really fundamental level. All of their fluff nonsense about "absorbing DNA to adapt" and eating to fuel interstellar travel is just painful to read, and even when they aren't suffering from blatant plausibility issues they're by far the most boring faction. They don't have characters, you can't negotiate with them, you can't communicate with them, they're just going to relentlessly attack you until they're all dead or they eat you. They're a mindless force of nature, not characters in a story. And to fix these problems you'd have to scrap all of the existing fluff (along with all of the models, ideally) and invent a whole new faction that just happens to share the name.
Well at the end of the day, even if it comes to the Tyranids requiring a complete overhaul, it's still preferable to having the faction removed. There's also a big problem with doing a complete overhaul of the faction which is it affects so many other factions, stories, and events. As a result, I think it'd be better to expand on it rather than overhaul it.
Also, if you completely overhaul the models for the Tyranids, what are people supposed to do with their Tyranid models? Is GW supposed to reimburse them should they ever actually do this? I mean, a complete overhaul of the models is fine in theory and I do hate many of the models, but practically speaking it's an impossibly bad idea.
Brand new release of Sisters of Battle-- plastic poseable models suitable for every infantry unit type. Heads with a variety of hairstyles from the absurd (mohawks for example) to the fairly standard (pixie cuts and such). Less emphasis on the breasts (IE, at the very least, smaller boob-cups). More ornate vehicle designs. Better facial sculpting-- we know they can do it, so they should get to it.
That's without adding new units or really updating rules at all, and IMO it'd breathe new life in to the most neglected faction of 40k.
Melissia wrote: Brand new release of Sisters of Battle-- plastic poseable models suitable for every infantry unit type. Heads with a variety of hairstyles from the absurd (mohawks for example) to the fairly standard (pixie cuts and such). Less emphasis on the breasts (IE, at the very least, smaller boob-cups). More ornate vehicle designs. Better facial sculpting-- we know they can do it, so they should get to it.
Agreed.
Not sure if mohawks are good, is that not a little out of place?
Edit: You know, I hope FW does SoB. FW does small detail much better than main GW does, something SoB would really benefit from. GW also tends more towards exaggerated proportions than FW does.
Mohawks might be out of place, but it'd be nice if each major order had its own distinct hairstyle. They could release head-packs similar to the shoulder packs astartes get.
IllumiNini wrote: Also, if you completely overhaul the models for the Tyranids, what are people supposed to do with their Tyranid models? Is GW supposed to reimburse them should they ever actually do this? I mean, a complete overhaul of the models is fine in theory and I do hate many of the models, but practically speaking it's an impossibly bad idea.
No one cares, basically. Everyone advocating for the removal of entire armies or miniature lines doesn't really care about the people who play those armies or what becomes of their models, or how much time and money is wasted as a result. I guess we're all supposed to just shrug it off, go "Oh, well! That was fun while it lasted. Guess we all got what we deserved in the end, it's our own fault for not playing the 'right' army!" and then start up a Space Marine chapter after dumping our Tau, Eldar, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, etc. armies in the garbage.
Really selfish mindset, in my opinion. "I don't like this thing, and can't stand the fact that other people might like this thing, so I wish it didn't exist no matter how many other people would lose out, because that would make me happier. feth everyone else."
IllumiNini wrote: Also, if you completely overhaul the models for the Tyranids, what are people supposed to do with their Tyranid models? Is GW supposed to reimburse them should they ever actually do this? I mean, a complete overhaul of the models is fine in theory and I do hate many of the models, but practically speaking it's an impossibly bad idea.
No one cares, basically. Everyone advocating for the removal of entire armies or miniature lines doesn't really care about the people who play those armies or what becomes of their models, or how much time and money is wasted as a result. I guess we're all supposed to just shrug it off, go "Oh, well! That was fun while it lasted. Guess we all got what we deserved in the end, it's our own fault for not playing the 'right' army!" and then start up a Space Marine chapter after dumping our Tau, Eldar, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, etc. armies in the garbage.
Really selfish mindset, in my opinion. "I don't like this thing, and can't stand the fact that other people might like this thing, so I wish it didn't exist no matter how many other people would lose out, because that would make me happier. feth everyone else."
You know, there is an option for these people if they want to play space marine vs space marine. Its called 30k. But they don't want that apparently.
I honestly cannot fathom how these people cannot see that every single model shouldn't cater to them. Some models aren't for you, thats just how it is. I don't like the look of the Imperial Guard tbh, mainly the cadian armor and how goofy commissars are, but that doesn't mean they should discontinue all those models. The Imperial Guard aren't even that competitive as an army and I still think they should stay around. If we got rid of all the 'bad' armies we would have like 3 factions with a total of 15 models. I'm curious to know what new models in the past 5 years these people like (if any).
IllumiNini wrote: Also, if you completely overhaul the models for the Tyranids, what are people supposed to do with their Tyranid models? Is GW supposed to reimburse them should they ever actually do this? I mean, a complete overhaul of the models is fine in theory and I do hate many of the models, but practically speaking it's an impossibly bad idea.
No one cares, basically. Everyone advocating for the removal of entire armies or miniature lines doesn't really care about the people who play those armies or what becomes of their models, or how much time and money is wasted as a result. I guess we're all supposed to just shrug it off, go "Oh, well! That was fun while it lasted. Guess we all got what we deserved in the end, it's our own fault for not playing the 'right' army!" and then start up a Space Marine chapter after dumping our Tau, Eldar, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, etc. armies in the garbage.
Really selfish mindset, in my opinion. "I don't like this thing, and can't stand the fact that other people might like this thing, so I wish it didn't exist no matter how many other people would lose out, because that would make me happier. feth everyone else."
people not liking what you like really seems to rile you up doesnt it? People can not like things, dream in their heads that such things should go away. That's fine, why that seems to bother you so much is very strange. It's not like anybody is actually going to come take your favorite model and destroy it or prevent you from ever using it. I cant stand TWC's as a fundamental concept, I think they're beyond stupid, there's nothin wrong with thinking something like that. It's a subjective artistic opinion. I also dont tell my opponents they cant use then or anything like that, I dont lecture them every time they bring them out, but if an opinion is asked such as in this thread, there's nothing wrong about expressing such an opinion.
IllumiNini wrote: Also, if you completely overhaul the models for the Tyranids, what are people supposed to do with their Tyranid models? Is GW supposed to reimburse them should they ever actually do this? I mean, a complete overhaul of the models is fine in theory and I do hate many of the models, but practically speaking it's an impossibly bad idea.
No one cares, basically. Everyone advocating for the removal of entire armies or miniature lines doesn't really care about the people who play those armies or what becomes of their models, or how much time and money is wasted as a result. I guess we're all supposed to just shrug it off, go "Oh, well! That was fun while it lasted. Guess we all got what we deserved in the end, it's our own fault for not playing the 'right' army!" and then start up a Space Marine chapter after dumping our Tau, Eldar, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, etc. armies in the garbage.
Really selfish mindset, in my opinion. "I don't like this thing, and can't stand the fact that other people might like this thing, so I wish it didn't exist no matter how many other people would lose out, because that would make me happier. feth everyone else."
people not liking what you like really seems to rile you up doesnt it? People can not like things, dream in their heads that such things should go away. That's fine, why that seems to bother you so much is very strange. It's not like anybody is actually going to come take your favorite model and destroy it or prevent you from ever using it. I cant stand TWC's as a fundamental concept, I think they're beyond stupid, there's nothin wrong with thinking something like that. It's a subjective artistic opinion. I also dont tell my opponents they cant use then or anything like that, I dont lecture them every time they bring them out, but if an opinion is asked such as in this thread, there's nothing wrong about expressing such an opinion.
I've seen this too many times on this forum and I don't understand it.
person A makes a ridiculous claim that every single model they slightly dislike should be thrown in the garbage
person B says thats short-sighted and not taking into account every single other person that likes it
person A then says 'why are you getting so worked up about it?" to completely dismiss their counterargument as an angry ramble when its not.
Look, I'm not against a circlejerk thread about saying what models we hate, but this should be a discussion on what should be redesigned as a concept.
Melissia wrote: Brand new release of Sisters of Battle-- plastic poseable models suitable for every infantry unit type. Heads with a variety of hairstyles from the absurd (mohawks for example) to the fairly standard (pixie cuts and such). Less emphasis on the breasts (IE, at the very least, smaller boob-cups). More ornate vehicle designs. Better facial sculpting-- we know they can do it, so they should get to it.
That's without adding new units or really updating rules at all, and IMO it'd breathe new life in to the most neglected faction of 40k.
I have to agree with you. I'm surprised GW hasn't squatted them yet, since they seem not to care at all for them at all.
I was just browsing the webstore and I don't think the sisters have a single decent model. Most of them look like guys with boobs. Not that there's anything wrong with that...but oy.
IllumiNini wrote: Also, if you completely overhaul the models for the Tyranids, what are people supposed to do with their Tyranid models? Is GW supposed to reimburse them should they ever actually do this? I mean, a complete overhaul of the models is fine in theory and I do hate many of the models, but practically speaking it's an impossibly bad idea.
No one cares, basically. Everyone advocating for the removal of entire armies or miniature lines doesn't really care about the people who play those armies or what becomes of their models, or how much time and money is wasted as a result. I guess we're all supposed to just shrug it off, go "Oh, well! That was fun while it lasted. Guess we all got what we deserved in the end, it's our own fault for not playing the 'right' army!" and then start up a Space Marine chapter after dumping our Tau, Eldar, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, etc. armies in the garbage.
Really selfish mindset, in my opinion. "I don't like this thing, and can't stand the fact that other people might like this thing, so I wish it didn't exist no matter how many other people would lose out, because that would make me happier. feth everyone else."
people not liking what you like really seems to rile you up doesnt it? People can not like things, dream in their heads that such things should go away. That's fine, why that seems to bother you so much is very strange. It's not like anybody is actually going to come take your favorite model and destroy it or prevent you from ever using it. I cant stand TWC's as a fundamental concept, I think they're beyond stupid, there's nothin wrong with thinking something like that. It's a subjective artistic opinion. I also dont tell my opponents they cant use then or anything like that, I dont lecture them every time they bring them out, but if an opinion is asked such as in this thread, there's nothing wrong about expressing such an opinion.
I've seen this too many times on this forum and I don't understand it.
person A makes a ridiculous claim that every single model they slightly dislike should be thrown in the garbage
person B says thats short-sighted and not taking into account every single other person that likes it
person A then says 'why are you getting so worked up about it?" to completely dismiss their counterargument as an angry ramble when its not.
Look, I'm not against a circlejerk thread about saying what models we hate, but this should be a discussion on what should be redesigned as a concept.
And for my part in this, all I was trying to say is this: Even though I agree with Peregrine and say that I severely dislike the Tyranids as they are now (fluff-wise, model-wise, and faction-wise), removing the faction all together is probably a very poor solution. Same goes for all the other factions that people have said should be removed.
-- For the theoretical purposes of this discussion, it makes sense because people don't like that aspect of the hobby (I myself would rather Tyranids didn't exist or were completely redone) and for the sake of the discussion, this is how they would redesign/change 40K.
-- From a practical, real-world standpoint, removing an entire faction makes no sense, with financial losses and consumer uproar from those who like and/or have invested in those factions being among the consequences for GW (and that's just two consequences for only one of the parties involved).
The practical side (with regards to actually implementing what's been said here) vs the theoretical side (for the pure purpose of discussion) is was what I wanted to highlight.
Also, I agree with what's been said about Sisters of Battle -- they need an update in their models. One of my mates has SoB and it's not that I think they're bad models, but I reckon that they could not only be done better but also have a wider range.
IllumiNini wrote: I think a greater variety of models as well as a significant improvement to their fluff would be the better option when put against removing them outright. Explore the Hive Mind a little more, differentiate between the major Hive Fleets a bit more (which also coincides with more models), etc etc. GW just need to polish of their apparently very dusty thinking caps and do it.
The problem is that the Tyranids are broken on a really fundamental level. All of their fluff nonsense about "absorbing DNA to adapt" and eating to fuel interstellar travel is just painful to read, and even when they aren't suffering from blatant plausibility issues they're by far the most boring faction. They don't have characters, you can't negotiate with them, you can't communicate with them, they're just going to relentlessly attack you until they're all dead or they eat you. They're a mindless force of nature, not characters in a story. And to fix these problems you'd have to scrap all of the existing fluff (along with all of the models, ideally) and invent a whole new faction that just happens to share the name.
I just couldn't agree more. I once tried to think about a campaign featuring tyranids, but I gave up when I realised that the story would look like my there only were my IG because the nid had Nothing to bring to the history.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:I found Marz's post very interesting, i'd like him to extend his thought as I'm not at all a Black Library reader and have stooped looking into WH40K's background for too long to have been able to notice this tend.
Sure, this might end up a small rant so be warned. Also spoilers if you haven't read any HH books
Spoiler:
I got into 40k in the late 90s. I should note that back then Science Fiction in general didn't particularly interest me, I was more a Fantasy guy. Back then the biggest story in the background was obviously the Heresy. It was shrouded in myth, Primarchs were legendary demi-gods some of whom fell to darkness in a somewhat cliche heaven vs hell fallen angels story. I liked that it was murky and that the heroes and villains were just names and deeds passed down over 10,000 years, the 40k universe having an entirely different cast of characters. I love to read, so I was fairly excited to hear that Black Library were planning to detail the Heresy in an upcoming series.
Well, it seems like GW rubbed off on BL somewhat, in that BL doesn't seem to have any clear direction. They just want to push books and print money, fair enough, capitalism ftw right? Well the first 3 books start and it seems like the whole story will be covered in a trilogy, or maybe 2 trilogies. The first book intros Horus and co. And this is where it starts to fall apart. The main protagonist is a pretty cookie cutter good guy, nothing hugely memorable about Garviel Loken, his colleagues are similarly cookie cutter personalities. You have a joker type, brooding moody one, angry one, and Loken. Then there's Horus. He starts out seemingly benevolent, but fast forward a few chapters and he's passed out from being stabbed, had a dream, and woke up a heretic. It's not long before you meet some of Horus' brothers, most of which lack any likable qualities or personality. Dorn and Fulgrim are probably the worst written characters for their respective factions but there's atrocity throughout the series, the loyalists seem to get the lions share of the terrible characters. Also I don't like how BL tries to write twist endings, they usually give the game away well before reveal, case in point the short story "The Last Church". Fairly well written but if you couldn't tell what the twist was before it was revealed you were probably sleeping throughout.
Character development is usually sidelined for more EPICWTFBOLTERPWNS moments where there must be no less than 4 mentions of "Astartes Battleplate", usually this follows some macho bs between protagonists, often debating morality briefly before turning to belligerence and more of the aforementioned bolterpwns action. Other keywords that you'll encounter dozens of times over the course of a single novel are things like "Legiones Astartes", "Oath", "Brother", or just awful foreshadowing about how there could never be a civil war between marines... could there? HERPDERP. Over time the series has degenerated into "how many irrelevant battles can we sell before we wrap this thing up", literally dozens of books later and we're no closer to Terra. Then there's the painful shoehorning of links to 40k that they try to insert everywhere. Case in point. The Ultramarines at one point set up their own astronomicon due to warp interference screwing with the big lighthouse on Terra. Oh! perfect spot for a shoddy connection, apparently this light is why the Tyranids turned up 10k years later... snore.
A lot of the 40k stuff is pretty much the same, especially the awful "space marine battles" novels, which are literally just marines kicking someone's butt for 200 pages.
Like I said, I understand the target market isn't me, but people like me make up a large proportion of wargamers in general (male, over 30). I'd love to see some fiction based in the 41st millenium that involved a real story, actual character development, maybe some intrigue or policial manoevering - anything but bolters mowing down *insert alien species or heretic here*. It could be about marines, eldar, guard, tau, whatever as long as it's something good. While it's not all terrible, the fiction that is half decent is still directed at a younger audience so naturally it avoids all the naughty themes in favour of wanton violence.
Sidstyler wrote: No one cares, basically. Everyone advocating for the removal of entire armies or miniature lines doesn't really care about the people who play those armies or what becomes of their models, or how much time and money is wasted as a result. I guess we're all supposed to just shrug it off, go "Oh, well! That was fun while it lasted. Guess we all got what we deserved in the end, it's our own fault for not playing the 'right' army!" and then start up a Space Marine chapter after dumping our Tau, Eldar, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, etc. armies in the garbage.
Really selfish mindset, in my opinion. "I don't like this thing, and can't stand the fact that other people might like this thing, so I wish it didn't exist no matter how many other people would lose out, because that would make me happier. feth everyone else."
To be fair to Peregrine (who initially said Tyranids should be removed) he doesnt actually play Space Marines, he's a Guard player.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:I found Marz's post very interesting, i'd like him to extend his thought as I'm not at all a Black Library reader and have stooped looking into WH40K's background for too long to have been able to notice this tend.
Sure, this might end up a small rant so be warned. Also spoilers if you haven't read any HH books
Spoiler:
I got into 40k in the late 90s. I should note that back then Science Fiction in general didn't particularly interest me, I was more a Fantasy guy. Back then the biggest story in the background was obviously the Heresy. It was shrouded in myth, Primarchs were legendary demi-gods some of whom fell to darkness in a somewhat cliche heaven vs hell fallen angels story. I liked that it was murky and that the heroes and villains were just names and deeds passed down over 10,000 years, the 40k universe having an entirely different cast of characters. I love to read, so I was fairly excited to hear that Black Library were planning to detail the Heresy in an upcoming series.
Well, it seems like GW rubbed off on BL somewhat, in that BL doesn't seem to have any clear direction. They just want to push books and print money, fair enough, capitalism ftw right? Well the first 3 books start and it seems like the whole story will be covered in a trilogy, or maybe 2 trilogies. The first book intros Horus and co. And this is where it starts to fall apart. The main protagonist is a pretty cookie cutter good guy, nothing hugely memorable about Garviel Loken, his colleagues are similarly cookie cutter personalities. You have a joker type, brooding moody one, angry one, and Loken. Then there's Horus. He starts out seemingly benevolent, but fast forward a few chapters and he's passed out from being stabbed, had a dream, and woke up a heretic. It's not long before you meet some of Horus' brothers, most of which lack any likable qualities or personality. Dorn and Fulgrim are probably the worst written characters for their respective factions but there's atrocity throughout the series, the loyalists seem to get the lions share of the terrible characters. Also I don't like how BL tries to write twist endings, they usually give the game away well before reveal, case in point the short story "The Last Church". Fairly well written but if you couldn't tell what the twist was before it was revealed you were probably sleeping throughout.
Character development is usually sidelined for more EPICWTFBOLTERPWNS moments where there must be no less than 4 mentions of "Astartes Battleplate", usually this follows some macho bs between protagonists, often debating morality briefly before turning to belligerence and more of the aforementioned bolterpwns action. Other keywords that you'll encounter dozens of times over the course of a single novel are things like "Legiones Astartes", "Oath", "Brother", or just awful foreshadowing about how there could never be a civil war between marines... could there? HERPDERP. Over time the series has degenerated into "how many irrelevant battles can we sell before we wrap this thing up", literally dozens of books later and we're no closer to Terra. Then there's the painful shoehorning of links to 40k that they try to insert everywhere. Case in point. The Ultramarines at one point set up their own astronomicon due to warp interference screwing with the big lighthouse on Terra. Oh! perfect spot for a shoddy connection, apparently this light is why the Tyranids turned up 10k years later... snore.
A lot of the 40k stuff is pretty much the same, especially the awful "space marine battles" novels, which are literally just marines kicking someone's butt for 200 pages.
Like I said, I understand the target market isn't me, but people like me make up a large proportion of wargamers in general (male, over 30). I'd love to see some fiction based in the 41st millenium that involved a real story, actual character development, maybe some intrigue or policial manoevering - anything but bolters mowing down *insert alien species or heretic here*. It could be about marines, eldar, guard, tau, whatever as long as it's something good. While it's not all terrible, the fiction that is half decent is still directed at a younger audience so naturally it avoids all the naughty themes in favour of wanton violence.
Sidstyler wrote:
No one cares, basically. Everyone advocating for the removal of entire armies or miniature lines doesn't really care about the people who play those armies or what becomes of their models, or how much time and money is wasted as a result. I guess we're all supposed to just shrug it off, go "Oh, well! That was fun while it lasted. Guess we all got what we deserved in the end, it's our own fault for not playing the 'right' army!" and then start up a Space Marine chapter after dumping our Tau, Eldar, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, etc. armies in the garbage.
Really selfish mindset, in my opinion. "I don't like this thing, and can't stand the fact that other people might like this thing, so I wish it didn't exist no matter how many other people would lose out, because that would make me happier. feth everyone else."
To be fair to Peregrine (who initially said Tyranids should be removed) he doesnt actually play Space Marines, he's a Guard player.
I think i now kinda see where's the problem... As far as the BL, it seems to me in fact, where GW is wrong and makes fool of its "market", is through letting such poorly written things get printed... And to hire du... irrelevant people to write. Have I got it right?
Note: if you want to give me even futher exemple, facts and so on about this tend, do feel free to private message me or to start a thread on your own so as not to slip out of this topic!
OT: the entire ork range to make everything look less cobbled together (heresy? Heresy! But it's either that or remove them, and that would suck more) I have yet to find an Ork model that I enjoy the aesthetics of, save for that flyer that got unorkified a while ago. And that SW sled, too
OT: the entire ork range to make everything look less cobbled together (heresy? Heresy! But it's either that or remove them, and that would suck more) I have yet to find an Ork model that I enjoy the aesthetics of, save for that flyer that got unorkified a while ago. And that SW sled, too
but.. thats thier ENTIRE schtik. Thats whta they do is cobble together everything in thier arsenal from super heavies, to tanks, walkers, hell even their fething guns and choppas. For christ's sake they have rokkits on sticks called tank hammers >_<
I've seen this too many times on this forum and I don't understand it.
person A makes a ridiculous claim that every single model they slightly dislike should be thrown in the garbage
person B says thats short-sighted and not taking into account every single other person that likes it
person A then says 'why are you getting so worked up about it?" to completely dismiss their counterargument as an angry ramble when its not.
Look, I'm not against a circlejerk thread about saying what models we hate, but this should be a discussion on what should be redesigned as a concept.
Except, in this example, I never made "a ridiculous claim that every single model they slightly dislike should be thrown in the garbage", and B wasn't saying "that's shortsighted" but essentially "your a bad person for merely wishing that" even though it has no impact on anything anywhere.
thepowerfulwill wrote: Ok while I did get some interesting responses, please read the first post. This is NOT a thread about rules or gameplay. This was about pure aesthetic designs of models and things in the fluff. Not gameplay wise.
Sorry! I admit I skimmed the thread and then went on a rant.
If it's aesthetics and fluff we're talking about, there are two problems.
First is the Flanderization of different armies (where they're becoming distorted 1-dimensional caricatures based on a few iconic traits). Space Wolves now have wolf-everything and nonsensical frost weapons. Blood Angels have blood-everything and wings everywhere. Tau get nothing but bigger and bigger Gundams. And so on. This needs to stop.
Second, there's something wrong with GW's design studio. The models they put out look more like toys these days and less like, well, models. Look at the Centurions, the Storm Talon and Storm Raven, the Taurox - fat, chunky, squashed proportions, covered in bling, terrible aesthetics that don't belong in the setting. They look like someone was told "design an aircraft that carries a squad of marines and a dreadnought, but do it so it fits on 3 sprues, make sure a toddler can play with it, and you only have a week".
When GW does something simple like redesign a tactical sprue, they do fine. When they try to cram something new into their bloated setting, it's more hit than miss. The 40k range is looking more and more like GI Joe.
For those saying that GW can't get rid of Tyranids, because it would piss off gamers... well, they've already done that in the past. Just ask an old timer about Squats. (But not me, that was before my time... I'm just a history buff)
Personally, while it would mean that the Nids I have would become even more useless and unsellable, I wouldn't mind getting rid of them for the same fluff and game reasons as others have mentioned. Or, they need a massive overhaul.
As for what I'd love to see, I'd love to see plastic Vostroyans. They have a kit currently that is actually fairly close in the Skitarii vanguard/ranger box, so it wouldnt be too far fetched to have sprues with fancy flashlights and ridiculous fur hats.
I'd also love to see aspect warriors redone.... It's one of the main reasons I haven't done an Eldar army (that, and I think they are OP). I love the idea/fluff of Dark Reapers, but I don't like the models, so I'm not gonna get them.
I agree that Tau need to be redone, although with people simply adding to their collections, you're still gonna run into the mix of blocky and rounded suits. IMO, it needs to be one or the other.
Chaos Marines need some love as well. I know people who love the marine box, but I feel that it is dated, and I find it odd that if you compare the size of those helmets to loyalist marine helmets.... for some reason the warp makes helmets swell???
OT: the entire ork range to make everything look less cobbled together (heresy? Heresy! But it's either that or remove them, and that would suck more) I have yet to find an Ork model that I enjoy the aesthetics of, save for that flyer that got unorkified a while ago. And that SW sled, too
but.. thats thier ENTIRE schtik. Thats whta they do is cobble together everything in thier arsenal from super heavies, to tanks, walkers, hell even their fething guns and choppas. For christ's sake they have rokkits on sticks called tank hammers >_<
I am aware, and it does absolutely nothing for me, I don't like it one bit.
I'm surprised by all the Nid hate (dislike?) I think ravenous bugs brings something to the game other than variations on bi-pedal man-sized gun-toting infantry. After all, doesn't AM have that shtick down? Why does everyone have to be a wanna-be guardsman?
The fluff could be changed by adding characters....the nids finally evolving widespread independent thought, including distension in the ranks and even "chapters" (hive fleet tactics, here we come.)
If anything, they are the easiest faction to ret-con, as their evolutionary biology basically demands re-writes every edition anyway. GW's choice to uber-nerf them, then ignore them, IMHO is nearly a sisters-of-battle-level crime. Bring on the bug love, GW!
lock up the gmc's into apoc again the imperial knights get to stay but everyone else and the super tanks go away. they are uncontrolable and a blith on my game. the stompa's future would be pending based on playtesting
aggressive units like jetbikes and bikes and cav would stop getting handouts, they would find themselves gutted of special rules packages and formations.
from here we can stop punishing zoo style armies in the brb
from there we start reworking magic tables, this would also help same goes for relics
we would do a pretty thorough top to bottom of individual army books and constant playtesting, every 6 months expect sweeping changes to the game big or small
A drop ship for the Orks, capable of transporting dreads, kans, or just lots and lots of boyz.
And, if I really have total say? Like, it's just for me, not for everyone else? Recut the Cadian box with five male guardsmen, and five female guardsmen.
I guess I'm one of the only people that likes Centurions. With a little work they look pretty cool.
I agree with everyone on Logan Claus though. I like the unit and concept, but the model itself just isn't great. It isn't terrible, but it certainly isn't great.
Also, if you completely overhaul the models for the Tyranids, what are people supposed to do with their Tyranid models? Is GW supposed to reimburse them should they ever actually do this? I mean, a complete overhaul of the models is fine in theory and I do hate many of the models, but practically speaking it's an impossibly bad idea.
Uh, they ALREADY DID. Seriously, go look at the old screamer-killer, warriors and zoanthrope models back from like 2E-3E.
And Tyranids are not the only ones that had a make-over. Dreadnoughts got an overhaul as did Rhinos (and variants - not just the hull, but turrets as well), Land Riaders and most especially Land Speeders. Then there's the necron destroyers and wraiths ...
It wouldn't be an "impossibly bad idea" - its already GW's SOP.
Leave only named characters as heroic scale, and make all other units size appropriate. I dislike having cultists that are almost as large as a chaos space marine or terminator.
The idea of giving tyranids "sentience" is an awful idea, IMO. I HATED when they gave the necrons personality and character traits. Much preferred the soulless emotionless robots. I also like the emotionless nids. It is what truly makes them evil..
unless you are a Tyranid in which case you are only doing what your instinctively and bio-engineered to do. consume and spread. So not really evil at all. Love that existential conundrum. That all goes away if you add in mutiny and personality. Its no longer biological drive and ambition. No longer animalistic.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I also like the emotionless nids. It is what truly makes them evil.
No, it's what makes them NOT evil. Evil requires consciousness and higher-level thinking about morality. We don't say that a wild animal is evil for killing its prey, or that a tornado is evil for destroying houses and killing the people inside. Same with the Tyrannids, they're just a mindless force of nature acting according to instincts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JimOnMars wrote: I'm surprised by all the Nid hate (dislike?) I think ravenous bugs brings something to the game other than variations on bi-pedal man-sized gun-toting infantry. After all, doesn't AM have that shtick down? Why does everyone have to be a wanna-be guardsman?
Part of the problem with the Tyranid models is that they often are "bipedal man-sized gun-toting infantry". Why do Tyranids have so many models that are carrying guns or swords or whatever just like any other infantry would?
Go watch a Killer Whale playing with a Seal, and revisit your thoughts about mindless forces of nature. Nids are more like that Killer Whale than a Tornado.
pm713 wrote: Lots of name changes in Space Wolves.
Remove IK.
Remove WK.
I'm agreeing with this one the most.
I'd actually like to see a lot of name changes in the Wolves, instead of "all the wolfy wolf you can wolf" I'd like to see more of the fact that they're space vikings. They're Space Wolves accompanied by wolves, riding wolves and turning into wolves stop it right there and it's awesome, some people might still think that's too much but the last three actually got me into the hobby.
Change Greatpacks back to Great Companies...the Great Companies' names could probably be improved but I've taken a liking to some of the wolfy ones and inspiration is being clouded at the moment.
Wolf Guard have had plenty of better options for 'alternate Honour Guard' drawing on Norse phrases and even in the fluff. Sword Brothers, Kingsguard, Chieftains, Varangian Guard...
Wolf Amulets could probably get a better name as well.
Fangsword of the ice wolf...it's a helfrost sword. What's wrong with calling it a Helfrost Sword, hell, get creative and call it a 'Jotun Sword' or Sword of the Frost Giants.
Wolf Claws, yeah it kinda works except wolves don't really use their claws in fights. If they need a name because they're better than lightning claws name them after one of Odin's ravens or call them Fenrisian Claws.
IK and WK...belong in apocalypse games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Why have so many people got an issue with Santa Claws and his sleigh? It's rarely fielded and not exactly world beating Y'all need to get a sense of humour.
I'm more irritated by the fact that there's three open topped vehicles in the Space Wolves codex and you can't assault out of any of them.
pm713 wrote: Lots of name changes in Space Wolves.
Remove IK.
Remove WK.
I'm agreeing with this one the most.
I'd actually like to see a lot of name changes in the Wolves, instead of "all the wolfy wolf you can wolf" I'd like to see more of the fact that they're space vikings. They're Space Wolves accompanied by wolves, riding wolves and turning into wolves stop it right there and it's awesome, some people might still think that's too much but the last three actually got me into the hobby.
Change Greatpacks back to Great Companies...the Great Companies' names could probably be improved but I've taken a liking to some of the wolfy ones and inspiration is being clouded at the moment.
Wolf Guard have had plenty of better options for 'alternate Honour Guard' drawing on Norse phrases and even in the fluff. Sword Brothers, Kingsguard, Chieftains, Varangian Guard...
Wolf Amulets could probably get a better name as well.
Fangsword of the ice wolf...it's a helfrost sword. What's wrong with calling it a Helfrost Sword, hell, get creative and call it a 'Jotun Sword' or Sword of the Frost Giants.
Wolf Claws, yeah it kinda works except wolves don't really use their claws in fights. If they need a name because they're better than lightning claws name them after one of Odin's ravens or call them Fenrisian Claws.
IK and WK...belong in apocalypse games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Why have so many people got an issue with Santa Claws and his sleigh? It's rarely fielded and not exactly world beating Y'all need to get a sense of humour.
I'm more irritated by the fact that there's three open topped vehicles in the Space Wolves codex and you can't assault out of any of them.
My naming goes: Wolf Guard = Huscarls.
Wolf Lord = Jarl.
Wolf Claws = Frost Claws. (Since new Wulfen got frost claws one of them gets changed to Rune Claws instead.)
Why have so many people got an issue with Santa Claws and his sleigh? It's rarely fielded and not exactly world beating Y'all need to get a sense of humour..
It's just conceptually and visually absurd, a physical manifestation of the way the Space Wolves have a taken a motif and run it into the ground, in a way you'd usually expect from an overactive 12 year old's bad internet fanfic.
My naming goes: Wolf Guard = Huscarls.
Wolf Lord = Jarl.
Wolf Claws = Frost Claws. (Since new Wulfen got frost claws one of them gets changed to Rune Claws instead.)
That kind of thing.
I forgot all about the HQs, Huscarl Battle Leader has a nice ring.
I like Jarl.
Wolf Priest - Priest of Hel?
The Wolf Claws would be the better option for Relic Claws, somewhere in the Curse of the Wulfen books it actually says the Wulfen Frost Claws are improvised from ice energy crystals...getting a bit towards light-saber tech there.
Why have so many people got an issue with Santa Claws and his sleigh? It's rarely fielded and not exactly world beating Y'all need to get a sense of humour..
It's just conceptually and visually absurd, a physical manifestation of the way the Space Wolves have a taken a motif and run it into the ground, in a way you'd usually expect from an overactive 12 year old's bad internet fanfic.
Ouch.
I borrowed stuff off my Xmas tree decorations and had a bit of fun with it. I just wish he was worth fielding more often.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm not sure why anyone would want to remove Imperial Knights. The model is superb and they aren't broken or anything.
I don't think many people want to remove them entirely, they just want to put them (along with other LoW) into large games where they're more appropriate and get rid of the "my 1000 point army is all superheavies" problem.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm not sure why anyone would want to remove Imperial Knights. The model is superb and they aren't broken or anything.
For me it's definitely removing from normal 40k. If it was apocalypse I'd be fine but I'd rather tone down the game via removal of superheavies, gmcs and D weaponry.
Quite frankly, I think the ship on Flyers, Supers, Gargantuans and S(D) has sailed and the result is just penalizing players who bought the biggest, coolest models.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm not sure why anyone would want to remove Imperial Knights. The model is superb and they aren't broken or anything.
A Knight or 2 in a 2k game is usally fine. An army of 5 however is usually not something most armies are capable of reasonably dealing with, particularly without tailoring. Likewise, they're really abusive in smaller games.
Why have so many people got an issue with Santa Claws and his sleigh? It's rarely fielded and not exactly world beating Y'all need to get a sense of humour..
It's just conceptually and visually absurd, a physical manifestation of the way the Space Wolves have a taken a motif and run it into the ground, in a way you'd usually expect from an overactive 12 year old's bad internet fanfic.
Ouch.
I borrowed stuff off my Xmas tree decorations and had a bit of fun with it. I just wish he was worth fielding more often.
I mean, if you like it and have fun with it, great, I'm certainly not to try and hate on your enjoyment of it, it's just something I don't like at all
JohnHwangDD wrote: Quite frankly, I think the ship on Flyers, Supers, Gargantuans and S(D) has sailed and the result is just penalizing players who bought the biggest, coolest models.
Sadly that seems to be the situation with GMC and flyers etc. Can still remove D at least.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm not sure why anyone would want to remove Imperial Knights. The model is superb and they aren't broken or anything.
A Knight or 2 in a 2k game is usally fine. An army of 5 however is usually not something most armies are capable of reasonably dealing with, particularly without tailoring. Likewise, they're really abusive in smaller games.
Nah. Let me bring my Knight, Warhound and Wraithknight, and I'm probably good against those IKTs.
I'd relegate all Gargantuan models to Apoc so nobody can whine that it's a biased move.
Under 2500 points it becomes a money game rather than a strategy game and some people just don't have the kind of money to field three knights, if you want to bring more people into the hobby you have to make competition affordable.
Apocalypse is 5k points a side as a bare minimum and that's where gargantuan models belong.
Peregrine wrote:Remove the Tyranids. Ugly models, awful fluff, just get rid of them and put them out of their misery.
I think a greater variety of models as well as a significant improvement to their fluff would be the better option when put against removing them outright. Explore the Hive Mind a little more, differentiate between the major Hive Fleets a bit more (which also coincides with more models), etc etc. GW just need to polish of their apparently very dusty thinking caps and do it.
I would love to see the Tyranids redone to be more like animals with more bio diversity. Get rid of there guns. (They just look like penises anyway.) Then add in more creature parts like fur, or scales, feathers, ect. As of right now, it seems like almost every nid is the same. (I mean they don't even look like different bugs.) Maybe try designing them along the idea of modern dinosaurs with feathers?
I would also change up the hive mind element. Give them more of a pack mentality and increase the intelligence. (I doubt this is would work for others though.)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm not sure why anyone would want to remove Imperial Knights. The model is superb and they aren't broken or anything.
For me it's definitely removing from normal 40k. If it was apocalypse I'd be fine but I'd rather tone down the game via removal of superheavies, gmcs and D weaponry.
But they aren't broken in regular 40k. What's the issue?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm not sure why anyone would want to remove Imperial Knights. The model is superb and they aren't broken or anything.
For me it's definitely removing from normal 40k. If it was apocalypse I'd be fine but I'd rather tone down the game via removal of superheavies, gmcs and D weaponry.
But they aren't broken in regular 40k. What's the issue?
I'd point out they are broken considering how easily I can take them at very low points.
Apart from that it's just me preferring a more toned down version of the game. Fix them and I don't have anything to complain about.
I would love to see say, three plastic guardsmen boxes from different worlds that are completely interchangeable so you get loads of customisation options. I hate the Cadian look and much prefer the first iteration of Imperial Guard from the late eighties.
Individual power armour sprues that can be used to make more than one kind of power armour.
Bring back the Necron Pariah aesthetic somewhere. I'm a bit miffed they retconned them; those spooky heads were so befitting of the unit.
In fact, the Pariahs are one of my favourite units, even if I've never used them.
Plastic Sisters? And while at it, perform a top-to-bottom redesign of the army with "Sister Sin" from the Rogue Trader book as inspiration - get rid of the "Catholic church on wheels" look and more towards a fast, sleek, fanatical lawbringer army with Judge Dredd overtones and healthy taste for prometheum and explosives.
That would be absolutely amazing, although it seems a bit touchy fitting them inbetween Grey Knights and Arbites looks-wise.
I would ditch GW's bullgak excuse that they are a model company first and foremost and a game company dead last.
Have GW fraking recognize their war gamers as their primary market. Dispose of the codex cycle. Write the rules all at once and make it free on their website. Edit the rules on their website should there need to be an errata. When I said rules, I dont mean the gakky fluff.
Have GW buy back all their old models for 1/10 the box price. Get people in the company to paint models quuckly. And repackage as finished semi professional painted formations and armies or squads. I say semi professional because its a step above what people are advertising as professional painted on ebay. Transition to making X-wing quality models.
Make the game accessible to senior highschool teenagers with a minimum wage jobs.
So many people have quit due to the price and time it takes. Change the company 180° from hardcore hobby to casual toy game like hero clix and x wing.
Codexes and rulebooks would be printed as latest versions, and the diffs from the latest major release would be available.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, bring in a 'Mordheim in Space', and not just Kill Team. Allow a Tac squad to be fielded like a Warband. Thatd be a great gateway to low points games.
Further, the final version would be rebalanced around a CAD-based demicompany. If you want to be a Dev squad and move (like Dark Reapers)? Thats a lot more points. Want high-volume Lasguns, or mobile Melta? Moar points. Want a 2+ and T6+? Thats a ton of points. Want to field Guard with HWT? Theyd make Devs look expensive.
I'd start by having GW stop trying to make a profit off their rules books and offer them for free online - or at least for a reduced price, since there'd be no need for expensive physical bindings and whatnot. I'd also like to see GW be more receptive to balance problems and fix them, say, on a quarterly basis - which would be much easier if the rules were entirely online and we weren't talking about waiting until a whole new Codex gets printed years after the balance problem crops up.
I'd also re-balance armies so an army using all the units in a starter box is competitive with whatever other builds people can come up with. I'd build in incentives to play an army that is representative of what each faction would typically go to battle with.
I'd have squad-based and patrol-level games, both because they're fun and because they'd make a good entry point for new players.
I'd get rid of the Allies rules. The matrix was completely unnecessary for casual funsies games. The only function it serves is to legitimize players exploiting broken, unintended synergies present by being able to field an army comprised of units of multiple factions. Which also damages the thematic aspect of the game.
I'd greatly increase the Troops requirement, either through requiring more Troops choices, or using a percentage system (my preference - 40% Troops works well in my experience).
I'd change how players access superheavies. Instead of having a separate LOW slot in the FOC, I'd have a superheavy option take up all of a player's Heavy Support slot. There would be no armies comprised entirely of superheavies. IKs become a LOW choice for any Imperial army.
On a somewhat different note, I'd also start trying to have the game appeal more to female players. Currently, GW isn't even trying. There's one (almost) all-female army that's been neglected in both rules and models for, what, going on a decade now? The fluff for the game's flagship army has them being a boys-only club, and there are so named female characters, you could hold all the minis for them in one hand and still be able to hold a cup of tea. You'd think at the very least, there'd be a female Eldar Farseer mini, especially as how all the DoW games have had female Farseers, but there isn't a corresponding mini.
I'd start with a full revamp of the Sisters of Battle - at the very least, give them decent, up-to-date rules, and a plastic kit for their basic squad would help tremendously as well. Then, I'd increase the visible female presence in the other armies where doing so makes sense - specifically Imperial Guard, Eldar, and Tau. I'm not saying they have to be 50% of each gender or anything, but have at least some female minis, and some high-profile female characters. With Space Marines, it gets tricky because of the fluff. One idea would be to have the "missing" legions/primarchs be female, and maybe lost in the warp or something to explain why they haven't been around. Alternately, maybe the game could get away with keeping Space Marines as-is if the role and presence of the Sisters of Battle is beefed up in the current setting.
Why go to all this trouble? The population of the United States is 51% female, and the nerd population has started to reflect that. I'd think GW would want to tap into that market. I'm not saying revamping the Sisters and a female Farseer mini are going to suddenly make the 40K fanbase reflect the population as a whole, but it'd be a start.
I recently came back to 40k after over a decade away. I love a lot of the new models but the fluff has changed so much its unrecognisable.
Back then no one was good. Literally NO ONE! now every faction has to be seen to have some redeeming features on a moral basis. This should not be the case. Go back to imperial military forces being brainwashed, highly xenophobic, murderous psychopaths while the rest of the human race is watched and basically systematically exploited and subjected to mass genocide by an organisation (or groups of organisations that make the gestapo look like a womens institue bake sale) and every other race just as, if not even more, evil and morally bankrupt or as in the case of the tyranids a wave of galaxt consuming monstrosities. The whole things just feels like grimdark lite atm. At least if writers took this approach we could say bye bye to this allies nonsense. I just used to love the futility idea that despite different races thinking what they fight for is right the fact is theyre all wrong and all positions are morally indefensible and no matter who wins each battle or war they are all going to die as the entire universe tears itself apart.
But yeh get rid of centurions... where did the imperium find this tech? Really? (And they look ridiculous)
And grav... we never had grav!
Snd for christ sakes can we please get a petitio to GW to make sisters out of plastic. I remebrt looki at SoB armies longingly and widji theyd make it a more accessible army and that was 12/13 years ago!
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: I'd start by having GW stop trying to make a profit off their rules books and offer them for free online
GW tried that with AOS. They won't make that mistake again.
To be fair, the rules themselves were pretty poorly received by a large segment of the community and they killed a large part of the playerbase, and they haven't released all rules online for free either. They also had an extremely wonky download system. I don't think the free rules was AoS's problem.
Add real, official models for women in the game. Even if Space Marines aren't supposed to look feminine at the very least Guard should have tons of women in it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I swear some of you posted as though you didn't read the title.
Such is life on the internet.
Chaos
I would tone down the horns, spikes, etc on Chaos minis, not a total removal of them but tone it down. Many of the current chaos models are cartonish and I really seem dated next to the DVCSM models. I would also create some kits that have a mix of chaos symbols and the loyalist symbols, like combining blood angels type stuff with khorne iconagraphy or some ultrasmurfs with undivided symbols. Plastic nurgle everything, yes everything, IG, SM, Mechanicum, orks, etc.
Orks
Just sell me bitz and gubbins to go on that baneblade or fireprism. Though some kits that are orky/ captured vehicles, etc could be cool. I personal think the orks should be a little bigger as well, less hunched over more tall, upright with no question that they lift.
NIDS
more bug varients to show the hive fleets evolving and adapting over time.
IG Less constipated heads. plastic kits for the various worlds or at lest greatcoat and desert guys. Make their walkers more mecha like.
People finally, literally got what they paid for with the FREE AoS rules. But people are paying money for the General's Compendium, and saying it's fine.
I hate the look of Rhino spam. Lunchbox after lunchbox. Maybe it's just the players who do it to others that should be changed. I suppose what I also have about it is lack of miniaturer on the board. It's not natural, it's not what 40k is about.
I frickin' love Centurions. Whenever I scroll past them, I always think "is there any way I can work them into my army, because I really want them! I guess they're a kind of "either you love them or hate them"-model.
As for what I'd change, I'd change Tyranids for sure. Make them much more bug-like, and remove every single held weapon. Their weapons should be organic and a part of their bodies. They look goofy as f**k carrying around little carapace pistols. They should be a scary disgusting threat. Not Looney Tunes.
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sturgeondtd wrote: Leave only named characters as heroic scale, and make all other units size appropriate. I dislike having cultists that are almost as large as a chaos space marine or terminator.
Found it really funny when I started Skitarii that they are supposed to be normal people with a little limb augmentation, but they are considerably taller than space marines if you account for the fact that the SM are wearing armour that they would be smaller outside of. Space Marines are supposed to be huge humans.
I'd change slaanesh and tzeentch daemons. Keep the bird motif but god the crab claws and silly looking tzeentch daemons hurt me so bad, especially because thay army seems fun to play. There's probably a few others but that's what comes to mind.
If it were up to me, I'd scrap the Chimera, LRBT and all their variants and come up with something a touch sleeker - lower silhouette, tracks that could feasibly reverse without stubbing itself on a rock and remove the ridiculous front sponson/barbette. I'd come up with a re-designed sprue of Guardsmen that look more functional like FW's Elysians and an additional upgrade sprue for a number of Guardswomen (or vice versa). I think combining Male and Female sprues into one box penalizes the player who wants an all male or all female force so the best way I can see would be to offer one gender or the other as an upgrade sprue. Either that or release a second box in the other gender. I'd also offer some sort of upgrade sprues to the baseline to represent a variety of other regiments (And not just the Tallarns/Mordians/Vostroyans that have been around for ages now). Taurox would get wheels - job done there.
SoB
Complete re-design from the ground up. - in plastic. I can't understand why GW hasn't either re-done them or just dropped them by now.
Space Wolves/Blood Angels/Dark Angels
Enough already! - They are another 6 First-founding Chapters out there and countless other Chapters - do something fresh instead or re-hashing the same old styles. Or don't, because you'll probably muck them up as well.
Space Marines
I'm okay with most SM stuff, aside from the Stormtalon and SM Bike/Attack Bike, but the thing that gets me the most - the fact that tank crews are wearing Pauldrons despite the hatch being too small to fit their torsos through, let alone their huge shoulders...
