Hey all, I realize that I am brand new to this forum but by no means am I new to gaming. I started gaming with first edition D&D as long ago as 1982 when I was just a little kid which is probably longer than most of you around here have been alive. Over the years my gaming has covered the whole spectrum from RPG's to video games to board games. Recently I decided to get into 40K. I have previously played a little WarMachine but I just like the 40K lore much better and I have read quite a few of the 40K novels such as Eisenhorn, Blood Angels Omnibus, The Enforcer and others. There's just nothing quite like the 40K universe and, like most of you I'm sure, I wish they would produce a 40K motion picture. At any rate I have watched quite a few videos and been browsing the online forums and what not and one complaint that I see over and over is the cost to get started in WarHammer. It's too expensive and so forth. The one that really makes me laugh is that video games are cheaper. I'm just going to put some of this into perspective from the point of view of someone who has been gaming for going on 30 years now.

So let's start with the claim that "video games are cheaper." Okay, you're going to get started in a new hobby and the choices are video game console or WarHammer 40K. To get started playing console video games what is the first thing you need? That's right, a console. For the sake of this example lets say an XBox console. The initial cost for an XBox console is about $400. After that you still have to buy a game at an average price of about $60 per game. If you bought a game that you want to play online against other players you have to get an XBox live subscription to the tune of about $50. So right off the bat to get started in video games you are just over $500 excluding tax. Now, who thinks getting started in 40K is still too expensive? You can get started in 40K for $115 for the current Dark Vengeance starter set. That leaves roughly $400 to buy more miniatures, paint, glue and tools when compared to how much it costs to get started in video games. The big mistake that everyone always seems to make when they make the claim that it's cheaper to "get started" in video games is that they never seem to include the initial cost of a console or PC which you must have if you want to play video games. Instead they make this comparison about how a $60 video game is cheaper than WarHammer. Yes it is, but a $60 video game isn't going to play on your imaginary system. You have to lay out the cash for your console or PC before you ever play the game. That is part of the "getting started" cost. Most video games that you buy you are going to play for a couple of months and then it will get old. Some will bring enjoyment for much longer and typically these are the first person shooter games. When you think about it though, what is 40K if not a shooter game? Its a shooter game with lots of shooters that you get to collect, paint and expand over time.

Next let's cover getting started in a role playing game like D&D versus WarHammer. To get started in D&D you have to have at a minimum the Players Handbook with an average price of $30. However in addition to that you need dice, character sheets, and if you are really going to get into the hobby properly you need miniatures for combat situations. If you are going to be a DM the price is even more and in every group of D&D players, somebody has to be the DM right. So add the cost of a Dungeon Masters Guide, DM's screen, Monster manual and unless you have countless free hours on your hands you will also have to buy a campaign setting and other supplements. Suffice it to say that you're easily in the $200 to $300 dollar range for all of that. The last time that I played D&D was Second Edition and literally every character class had a supplemental rule book not unlike the codex books from 40K. So again, here we have a gaming hobby that is at a minimum going to set you back about $200 to get started and that is still more expensive than Dark Vengeance. The WarHammer 40K RPG's from Fantasy Flight games don't fare any better. Dark Heresy Second Edition has an average book price of $40 to $50 per book and unlike WarHammer 40K miniatures there is very little supplemental material provided to aid and enrich the gaming experience. I speak from first hand experience on this because my group played Dark Heresy first edition and if you plan to be a Game Master in that game you might as well prepare yourself for hours of coming up with your own adventures because there is little offered from Fantasy Flight.

What about strategy board games like Axis & Allies? Well the current global version of Axis & Allies comes in two separate games; Axis & Allies Europe and Axis & Allies Pacific. Each game is about $80 and you have to have them both to play the global game. I have both games and we play global on a regular basis. It's a six foot long map and I am fortunate in that over the years I have purchased other iterations of Axis & Allies so I have a lot of extra pieces for the respective armies. However, if you just have the pieces that come in the two sets you may find that you come up short on pieces as the game goes on and have to get creative with using the provided chips. Even still, you are out of pocket $160 to get started in Axis & Allies and that is considered a relatively cheap game to play. There are a lot of players that take A&A to the next level by way of constructing impressive gaming tables to hold the massive six foot map that you play on. I personally bought color matched dice for each army and that alone set me back about another $50. Some players buy the miniature tanks and half tracks from GHQ to supplement the pieces in the game with more realistic looking pieces. I looked into this myself and in order to provide the minimum number of needed tanks and half tracks to replace the plastic pieces provided in the game worked out to about $80 per army. There are 8 armies. You do the math. WarHammer still look expensive?

I could go on of course. Dust Tactics, Tide of Iron, Star Wars X-Wing, Star Wars Armada and if you think WarHammer is bad try Flames of War. The point is that none of these is going to be cheaper than Warhammer to get started. They are all going to set you back $200 to $500 and there are many hobbies / games out there that are far more expensive than WarHammer. I think this game gets a bad wrap for being overpriced because as someone who has gamed for thirty years I can tell you that there is no such thing as a cheap hobby. You can dump a lot of money into just going for a hike in the woods if that's your hobby, and it is one of mine by the way.

[edit] This seems to be the core of your argument.

Statement 1:

I could go on of course. Dust Tactics, Tide of Iron, Star Wars X-Wing, Star Wars Armada and if you think WarHammer is bad try Flames of War. The point is that none of these is going to be cheaper than Warhammer to get started.
They are all going to set you back $200 to $500 and there are many hobbies / games out there that are far more expensive than WarHammer.

Statement2:

I think this game gets a bad wrap for being overpriced because as someone who has gamed for thirty years I can tell you that there is no such thing as a cheap hobby.
You can dump a lot of money into just going for a hike in the woods if that's your hobby, and it is one of mine by the way.

Both are simply not true and make anyone who claims them to be true look like a rich prick to those who can't afford it. But those statements don't even matter for the whole is 40k too expensive or not discussion.

Fact is that 40k is too expensive for a part of the humans who would like to play it. This isn't really that harmful for them. Most cars are too expensive for my but I don't care about that.
What makes 40k a different case is that a portion of the player base spends is on a low income and spends more cash in it then they should really do so. 40k is truly too expensive for them.
This is harmfull.

I for sure can no longer afford to keep up with the current 40k prices and I have a job. Not a good one but it is a job, and 40k is just too expensive for me right now. You can say that it isn't but that would just be a result of your lack of imagination.

MolonLabe wrote:
Star Wars X-Wing .... going to set you back $200 to $500

Except that you can get started with X wing for $50.
$200 gets you plenty of x wing stuff, more than you need for a full sized game. $200 does not get you a full sized game of 40k these days.

MolonLabe wrote:
Next let's cover getting started in a role playing game like D&D versus WarHammer. To get started in D&D you have to have at a minimum the Players Handbook with an average price of $30. However in addition to that you need dice, character sheets, and if you are really going to get into the hobby properly you need miniatures for combat situations. If you are going to be a DM the price is even more and in every group of D&D players, somebody has to be the DM right. So add the cost of a Dungeon Masters Guide, DM's screen, Monster manual and unless you have countless free hours on your hands you will also have to buy a campaign setting and other supplements. Suffice it to say that you're easily in the $200 to $300 dollar range for all of that. The last time that I played D&D was Second Edition and literally every character class had a supplemental rule book not unlike the codex books from 40K. So again, here we have a gaming hobby that is at a minimum going to set you back about $200 to get started and that is still more expensive than Dark Vengeance. The WarHammer 40K RPG's from Fantasy Flight games don't fare any better. Dark Heresy Second Edition has an average book price of $40 to $50 per book and unlike WarHammer 40K miniatures there is very little supplemental material provided to aid and enrich the gaming experience. I speak from first hand experience on this because my group played Dark Heresy first edition and if you plan to be a Game Master in that game you might as well prepare yourself for hours of coming up with your own adventures because there is little offered from Fantasy Flight.

Funny thing about those is that you don't NEED to buy all the books. Pretty much all the RPG's I have played I have got start of by ~30-40€(so 50$ or so?). Which alone gives me tons of hours.

Can I spend more? Well duh of course I can. But I don't need them to start.

There are a lot of players that take A&A to the next level by way of constructing impressive gaming tables to hold the massive six foot map that you play on. I personally bought color matched dice for each army and that alone set me back about another $50. Some players buy the miniature tanks and half tracks from GHQ to supplement the pieces in the game with more realistic looking pieces. I looked into this myself and in order to provide the minimum number of needed tanks and half tracks to replace the plastic pieces provided in the game worked out to about $80 per army. There are 8 armies. You do the math. WarHammer still look expensive?

Last time I checked none of that is required to start that...

Okay on similar logic 40k requires you to buy 3 warlord titans from FW to get started. Can't have enjoyable game of 40k without those! That's what 3000£+change?

See? Of course you can bump up price needed to start IF YOU ADD IN STUFF YOU DON'T NEED but then claim they are needed to start with.

Just like with RPG's you are putting up prices of stuff you don't need to start(without even getting worse start) in board games.

No you do not need coloured dices. You don't need big gaming tables custom built. No you don't need GHQ models(nor is miniatures essential for RPG's. Maybe for D&D but well guess what? D&D isn't same as RPG's. It's ONE RPG but there's tons of RPG's. Good RPG's don't even require miniatures as it becomes ROLLgaming rather than ROLEplaying all too easily.

I could go on of course. Dust Tactics, Tide of Iron, Star Wars X-Wing, Star Wars Armada and if you think WarHammer is bad try Flames of War. The point is that none of these is going to be cheaper than Warhammer to get started. They are all going to set you back $200 to $500 and there are many hobbies / games out there that are far more expensive than WarHammer. I think this game gets a bad wrap for being overpriced because as someone who has gamed for thirty years I can tell you that there is no such thing as a cheap hobby. You can dump a lot of money into just going for a hike in the woods if that's your hobby, and it is one of mine by the way.

In miniature games cheaper games to start with than 40k:

legends of the old west
flames of war(yes flames of war)
x-wing(no you don't need 30 ships to get started!)
BFG
Starship troopers
necromunda
bloodbowl
warmaster ancients


You are mistaking starting prices to extending prices. Miniatures classified as required prices for RPG...Sheesh. Why not put in warlord titans as required starting investment to 40k as well!

Here are examples of hobbies that cost less

RPG's

Pathfinder would do fine
-Dice already owned by the group. But you could count that as cost. They never get invalidated by the a new codex or rule system and we are using them for 10+ years now.
-Paper lying around in our houses.
-Pencils
-Internet connection and acces to http://www.d20pfsrd.com/
-Snacks.
Real cost per month : Snacks.

Drawing.
-Pencil
-Paper

Sculpting
- Clay ( 5$ max)
- Sculpting tools already in my possession but lets say 30$

Bird spotting.
- Forest ( free)

Growing herbs.
- cutting of old herbs (10$ max)

Programming
- Laptop and internet access ( already in my possession)

Heck even VJ'in is cheaper then 40k and this is a "luxurious" hobby
- Laptop ( already owned)
- Beamer ( 300$ )
yeah I know you might say whut 300 bucks thats a lot sure it is but how much did you spend 40k in total until now including paint and unpainted minis etc...
I never ever had the slightest desire to keep buying more beamers and latops for it every few moths.

Ahh the old false equivalency fallacy pops it's head up again.

You could have an x-wing tournament level fleet for around £80, you could get one of every model in a faction for £150 and that's a big selection of ships.

You spend £80+ on rules before you even pick up a model with 40k, knights used to be the cheapest option I don't know if they still are but that was £250 which puts you over £300 back in 2014 when I stopped playing.

 jonolikespie wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Star Wars X-Wing .... going to set you back $200 to $500

Except that you can get started with X wing for $50.
$200 gets you plenty of x wing stuff, more than you need for a full sized game. $200 does not get you a full sized game of 40k these days.

I have X-Wing. $50 worth of X-Wing is not an interesting game. If you want to have any fun with X-Wing you're going to drop a couple hundred bucks on it at a minimum.

And how much does it cost you to have an 'interesting' game of 40k?

Yeah... you might have been playing for thirthy years but that does not mean that your opinion is right. I'd say you have a pretty fethed up opinion if I'm completely honest.

Basicly, what you're saying comes down to: If I bought everything hobby X has to offer and throw in custom accesoiries and tables, it's more expensive than a single start collecting box from Warhammer and thus we can conclude that hobby X is more expensive than Warhammer.

No, that's simply bs. If you consider a game board a necessity for other games, it's a necessity for Warhammer aswell. And a gaming board for Warhammer alone costs €286 without any form of scenery on it. You want scenery on your battle board? O.k that jacks the price up to about €500 and your table isn't even filled. And before you start thinking: "Of but you could do it cheaper than that", you can also get dice that are cheaper than $50 yet you seem to consider that a necessity. If I wanted enough shiny dice for all my warhammer 40K armies I'd probably easily pay double that.

I looked into this myself and in order to provide the minimum number of needed tanks and half tracks to replace the plastic pieces provided in the game worked out to about $80 per army. There are 8 armies. You do the math. WarHammer still look expensive?

And how is this a "requirement to start playing"? The answer is: You don't.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Both statements don't even matter for the whole is 40k too expensive or not discussion.

Fact is that 40k is too expensive for a part of the humans who would like to play it. This isn't really that harmfull for them. Most cars are too expensive for my but I don't care about that.

What makes 40k a different case is that a portion of the player base spends is on a low income and spends more cash in it then they should really do so. 40k is truly too expensive for them.

I for sure can no longer afford to keep up with the current 40k prices and I have a job. Not a good one but it is a job, and 40k is just too expensive for me right now. You can say that it isn't but that would just be a result of your lack of imagination.

I can say that it isn't as a result of 30 years worth of gaming hobby. Getting started in 40K is not any more expensive than getting started in a lot of other popular hobbies out there. That's just the facts. If you can't afford 40K, you can't afford the others as well. It's just a game in the end so it's not something you have to have.

MolonLabe wrote:


I can say that it isn't as a result of 30 years worth of gaming hobby. Getting started in 40K is not any more expensive than getting started in a lot of other popular hobbies out there. That's just the facts. If you can't afford 40K, you can't afford the others as well. It's just a game in the end so it's not something you have to have.

This tells more about your imagination and your social environment than anything else.

DaPino wrote:
Yeah... you might have been playing for thirthy years but that does not mean that your opinion is right. I'd say you have a pretty fethed up opinion if I'm completely honest.

Basicly, what you're saying comes down to: If I bought everything hobby X has to offer and throw in custom accesoiries and tables, it's more expensive than a single start collecting box from Warhammer and thus we can conclude that hobby X is more expensive than Warhammer.

No, that's simply bs. If you consider a game board a necessity for other games, it's a necessity for Warhammer aswell. And a gaming board for Warhammer alone costs €286 without any form of scenery on it. You want scenery on your battle board? O.k that jacks the price up to about €500 and your table isn't even filled. And before you start thinking: "Of but you could do it cheaper than that", you can also get dice that are cheaper than $50 yet you seem to consider that a necessity. If I wanted enough shiny dice for all my warhammer 40K armies I'd probably easily pay double that.

I looked into this myself and in order to provide the minimum number of needed tanks and half tracks to replace the plastic pieces provided in the game worked out to about $80 per army. There are 8 armies. You do the math. WarHammer still look expensive?

And how is this a "requirement to start playing"? The answer is: You don't.

Dice and GHG for my A&A game are not a necessity. They are just a nice accessory. It's no different than saying a Land Raider is not a necessity for my 40K army when I can play with a basic battleforce box.

If you think you can get started in video games for less money than you can get started in 40K you must not realize how much it costs to get started in video games.

If you think you can get started in an RPG for less money than you can get started in 40K you must not realize how much RPG books and accessories to play cost.

I frankly couldn't care if you agree with me. It's just common sense. If you just want to rant on about 40K because it's the thing to do than go ahead, but it doesn't make you right.

MolonLabe wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Star Wars X-Wing .... going to set you back $200 to $500

Except that you can get started with X wing for $50.
$200 gets you plenty of x wing stuff, more than you need for a full sized game. $200 does not get you a full sized game of 40k these days.

I have X-Wing. $50 worth of X-Wing is not an interesting game. If you want to have any fun with X-Wing you're going to drop a couple hundred bucks on it at a minimum.

Sure. And most players don't stop at 1500 pts in 40k. Do you put in 3000 pts to starting cost of 40k then? That's approaching 4 digit amounts...


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MolonLabe wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Both statements don't even matter for the whole is 40k too expensive or not discussion.

Fact is that 40k is too expensive for a part of the humans who would like to play it. This isn't really that harmfull for them. Most cars are too expensive for my but I don't care about that.

What makes 40k a different case is that a portion of the player base spends is on a low income and spends more cash in it then they should really do so. 40k is truly too expensive for them.

I for sure can no longer afford to keep up with the current 40k prices and I have a job. Not a good one but it is a job, and 40k is just too expensive for me right now. You can say that it isn't but that would just be a result of your lack of imagination.

I can say that it isn't as a result of 30 years worth of gaming hobby. Getting started in 40K is not any more expensive than getting started in a lot of other popular hobbies out there. That's just the facts. If you can't afford 40K, you can't afford the others as well. It's just a game in the end so it's not something you have to have.

Funny how I have been able to start multiple games that provide just as much content as 40k for price of 40k army then...

I must be stealing stuff from stores since by your claim it's impossible!

MolonLabe wrote:
Getting started in 40K is not any more expensive than getting started in a lot of other popular hobbies out there. That's just the facts.

Well.. no that is objectivy wrong.. If you are talking getting started then we're back to $50 starter sets from X Wing.. hell even Warmahordes new battleboxes are only like $50-$60.

 oldzoggy wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:


I can say that it isn't as a result of 30 years worth of gaming hobby. Getting started in 40K is not any more expensive than getting started in a lot of other popular hobbies out there. That's just the facts. If you can't afford 40K, you can't afford the others as well. It's just a game in the end so it's not something you have to have.

This tells more about your imagination and your social environment than anything else.

Thanks but you really don't know anything about my imagination nor can you presume to asses any such nonsense from the bit of reading you've done on this thread. Ego much?

MolonLabe wrote:
If you think you can get started in an RPG for less money than you can get started in 40K you must not realize how much RPG books and accessories to play cost.

To get started with RPG you generally need...Drumrolls...ONE BOOK!

I can get started with RPG for 36£(plus shipping). Maybe cheaper if I can find it on store that sells cheaper than publisher. That's more complete start than say 500 pts 40k army is. More akin to having 2500 pts 40k army.

Can you spend more if you want? Yes. But that's not "getting started". Don't let ANYBODY fool you by claiming you need 10+ books, miniatures, custom dices and whatnot to get started in RPG's. That's flat out lie.

 jonolikespie wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Getting started in 40K is not any more expensive than getting started in a lot of other popular hobbies out there. That's just the facts.

Well.. no that is objectivy wrong.. If you are talking getting started then we're back to $50 starter sets from X Wing.. hell even Warmahordes new battleboxes are only like $50-$60.

In point of fact you can get the X-Wing starter set for $27 from Amazon. It's two tie fighters and an X-Wing fighter. It's going to hold your interest for about a single match and then you'll be off to buy more ships.

MolonLabe wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:


I can say that it isn't as a result of 30 years worth of gaming hobby. Getting started in 40K is not any more expensive than getting started in a lot of other popular hobbies out there. That's just the facts. If you can't afford 40K, you can't afford the others as well. It's just a game in the end so it's not something you have to have.

This tells more about your imagination and your social environment than anything else.

Thanks but you really don't know anything about my imagination nor can you presume to asses any such nonsense from the bit of reading you've done on this thread. Ego much?

Well you are claiming "need to have complete set to start a game"...Guess you have bought companies sale lines.

I'm curious how Mantic play into this?

They are blatantly cheaper than GW, you can make the argument they have worse quality, but that is a very different argument than the one being made..

Hell even MTG is cheaper than 40k.

You could can walk into any gaming store right now with 6 friends and buy 3 boosters each. ( you would still have to gain access to some lands but this should not be too expensive either if you don't have them in your group.)
This would give you a evening of the full MTG experience not a silly rip off version of the game like killteam etc. and it would cost you max 10$ each.

tneva82 wrote:


Funny how I have been able to start multiple games that provide just as much content as 40k for price of 40k army then...

I must be stealing stuff from stores since by your claim it's impossible!

Feel free to share these fantastic games with us.

MolonLabe wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Getting started in 40K is not any more expensive than getting started in a lot of other popular hobbies out there. That's just the facts.

Well.. no that is objectivy wrong.. If you are talking getting started then we're back to $50 starter sets from X Wing.. hell even Warmahordes new battleboxes are only like $50-$60.

In point of fact you can get the X-Wing starter set for $27 from Amazon. It's two tie fighters and an X-Wing fighter. It's going to hold your interest for about a single match and then you'll be off to buy more ships.

Your argument was that getting started with 40k is not more expensive. It costs $27 to get started with X wing. Tell me how can you get started with 40k for less than $30?

 oldzoggy wrote:
Hell even MTG is cheaper than 40k.

You could can walk into any gaming store right now with 6 friends and buy 3 boosters each. ( you would still have to gain access to some lands but this should not be too expensive either if you don't have them in your group.)
This would give you a evening of the full MTG experience not a silly rip off version of the game like killteam etc. and it would cost you max 10$ each.

Personally never heard of MTG. What's it all about?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jonolikespie wrote:

Your argument was that getting started with 40k is not more expensive. It costs $27 to get started with X wing. Tell me how can you get started with 40k for less than $30?

Tell me how two tie fighters and an Xwing is interesting? I told you I have X-Wiing, to include the starter set. The starter set is a boring game that will not hold your interest. Fantasy Flight is well aware of this and that's why they sell more ships, because they know you will have to buy more ships if you actually want to enjoy the game. At least for the $115 to $150 that you spend to get started in 40K you will have a starting point that gives you more than what you get from X-Wing. If you personally like the starter set from X-Wing than by all means have five minute matches to your hearts content. lol

An other example. Lets play rogue trader the RPG with friends.
Lets say your group is 5 people. And you buy it all brand new.


-Core rules 60$
-3 Set of D10's 12$
- premade advventure book: Lure of the Expanse 40$

Totals for 112 or around 20$ each and this is when you buy it all brand new. RPG campaign books generally go for a lot cheaper on second hands sites.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

MolonLabe wrote:

Personally never heard of MTG. What's it all about?

Thats it I am out have fun trolling.

I got in a lot of new games in the last 3 years and compared to 40k they were all a lot cheaper.

For example the famous X-Wing.
2 Starter Boxes (red and blue one, sell the other faction), 1 Aces Box, 2 Blister and I have enough to play and try different lists with spending 100€

SAGA
Getting 4 plastic Boxes from Conquest or Fireforge and I have 2 full 8 point (maximum game size, standard is 6, minimum 4) armies for 130€ including the rulebook.

A Fantastic SAGA
the fantasy skirmish version of the game, it's a little bit more expensive, but an 8 point list for 100€ is possible for all factions (also if you use the starter Boxes from GW)

Flames of War
Rulebook and a mixed Infantry/Tank army cost me about 200€. Including PSC models instead of the expensive resin tanks and a lot of options (I have about double the minis I need for a standard size game)

Firestorm Armada/Dystopian Wars
about 80€ for DW and 100€ for FA, but I have more models than I need for a game and can play different lists

Kings of War
Standard sized game including harcover books cost me 200€ for a single army and it is not all mantic only (my dwarfs are a mix of AoW and MoM)

Napoleonics
250€ for a French army in plastic.

If I now want to start 40k I spent 80€ for the rules I really need, another 40 to get all the rules for my faction, 3 Starter Boxes and some additional stuff for a Standard size game will end me with 350€ including rules

So 40k is more expensive than the mass battle games out there and cannot be compared to the skirmish.

Of course if you start collecting a faction, all of them will get more expensive, but with 100-200€ you get enough for all the other games to have a little bit variation to your army list while 40k starts with 300

My GM is adamant that he can, would prefer not to but can, run a group for as long as he needs to using nothing more than the D&D 5th ed players handbook and a single set of dice.

I kinda wanna see that now that I think about it...

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
If you think you can get started in an RPG for less money than you can get started in 40K you must not realize how much RPG books and accessories to play cost.

To get started with RPG you generally need...Drumrolls...ONE BOOK!

I can get started with RPG for 36£(plus shipping). Maybe cheaper if I can find it on store that sells cheaper than publisher. That's more complete start than say 500 pts 40k army is. More akin to having 2500 pts 40k army.

Can you spend more if you want? Yes. But that's not "getting started". Don't let ANYBODY fool you by claiming you need 10+ books, miniatures, custom dices and whatnot to get started in RPG's. That's flat out lie.

I'm afraid that's just not the case. At a minimum you'll need the core rule book and dice. If you're going to be the DM / GM you'll need a lot more than that. Or maybe your idea of playing an RPG is to let some other player absorb all the cost of getting everything that is actually needed. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldzoggy wrote:
An other example. Lets play rogue trader the RPG with friends.
Lets say your group is 5 people. And you buy it all brand new.


-Core rules 60$
-3 Set of D10's 12$
- premade advventure book: Lure of the Expanse 40$

Totals for 112 or around 20$ each and this is when you buy it all brand new. RPG campaign books generally go for a lot cheaper on second hands sites.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

MolonLabe wrote:

Personally never heard of MTG. What's it all about?

Thats it I am out have fun trolling.

Congratulations, you just spent the same amount of money it takes to get started in 40K lol

MolonLabe wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Hell even MTG is cheaper than 40k.

You could can walk into any gaming store right now with 6 friends and buy 3 boosters each. ( you would still have to gain access to some lands but this should not be too expensive either if you don't have them in your group.)
This would give you a evening of the full MTG experience not a silly rip off version of the game like killteam etc. and it would cost you max 10$ each.

Personally never heard of MTG. What's it all about?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jonolikespie wrote:

Your argument was that getting started with 40k is not more expensive. It costs $27 to get started with X wing. Tell me how can you get started with 40k for less than $30?

Tell me how two tie fighters and an Xwing is interesting? I told you I have X-Wiing, to include the starter set. The starter set is a boring game that will not hold your interest. Fantasy Flight is well aware of this and that's why they sell more ships, because they know you will have to buy more ships if you actually want to enjoy the game. At least for the $115 to $150 that you spend to get started in 40K you will have a starting point that gives you more than what you get from X-Wing. If you personally like the starter set from X-Wing than by all means have five minute matches to your hearts content. lol

MTG is a card game - a game that is arguably more popular than all of miniature wargaming games available. It's one of the biggest sources of income for shops with a niche market. You could build a budget deck for around $20 and a really good deck for about $200 or so (don't know conversion rates). It can be more expensive if you play Standard, where cards are rotated out (ie not legal for that format) but the game makers accommodated for this and have introduced all sorts of formats (metas) that accommodate all players. It's really easy to pick up to, since all you need is a basic understanding of phases and what is on a card, since all the special rules are printed straight onto the card.

X-Wing is interesting to more people since due to the Star Wars franchie, people know what it's about. I think it's more popular than 40k now in America anyway.

 kodos wrote:
I got in a lot of new games in the last 3 years and compared to 40k they were all a lot cheaper.

For example the famous X-Wing.
2 Starter Boxes (red and blue one, sell the other faction), 1 Aces Box, 2 Blister and I have enough to play and try different lists with spending 100€

SAGA
Getting 4 plastic Boxes from Conquest or Fireforge and I have 2 full 8 point (maximum game size, standard is 6, minimum 4) armies for 130€ including the rulebook.

A Fantastic SAGA
the fantasy skirmish version of the game, it's a little bit more expensive, but an 8 point list for 100€ is possible for all factions (also if you use the starter Boxes from GW)

Flames of War
Rulebook and a mixed Infantry/Tank army cost me about 200€. Including PSC models instead of the expensive resin tanks and a lot of options (I have about double the minis I need for a standard size game)

Firestorm Armada/Dystopian Wars
about 80€ for DW and 100€ for FA, but I have more models than I need for a game and can play different lists

Kings of War
Standard sized game including harcover books cost me 200€ for a single army and it is not all mantic only (my dwarfs are a mix of AoW and MoM)

Napoleonics
250€ for a French army in plastic.

If I now want to start 40k I spent 80€ for the rules I really need, another 40 to get all the rules for my faction, 3 Starter Boxes and some additional stuff for a Standard size game will end me with 350€ including rules

So 40k is more expensive than the mass battle games out there and cannot be compared to the skirmish.

Of course if you start collecting a faction, all of them will get more expensive, but with 100-200€ you get enough for all the other games to have a little bit variation to your army list while 40k starts with 300

I'm glad Flames of War is cheaper across the pond because here in the states it is easily far more expensive than 40K.

 Frozocrone wrote:
X-Wing is interesting to more people since due to the Star Wars franchie, people know what it's about. I think it's more popular than 40k now in America anyway.

X wing knocked 40k out of the top spot in the Icv2 chart.

MTG is a card game - a game that is arguably more popular than all of miniature wargaming games available. It's one of the biggest sources of income for shops with a niche market. You could build a budget deck for around $20 and a really good deck for about $200 or so (don't know conversion rates). It can be more expensive if you play Standard, where cards are rotated out (ie not legal for that format) but the game makers accommodated for this and have introduced all sorts of formats (metas) that accommodate all players. It's really easy to pick up to, since all you need is a basic understanding of phases and what is on a card, since all the special rules are printed straight onto the card.

X-Wing is interesting to more people since due to the Star Wars franchie, people know what it's about. I think it's more popular than 40k now in America anyway.

You can't play 40k for 30+ years and never have heard of MTG.
It is simply impossible. Almost al stores run on it and there is a huge overlap in player base.

MolonLabe wrote:
The big mistake that everyone always seems to make when they make the claim that it's cheaper to "get started" in video games is that they never seem to include the initial cost of a console or PC which you must have if you want to play video games.

That's because virtually everyone (other than people who are too poor to afford any of these hobbies) already has a PC as a basic part of living in 2016. It might not be able to run the latest games at full settings, but it's still a PC, and there are decades worth of awesome older games to play. So the cost of getting started in gaming is "buy a $5 classic game, start playing".

And another important factor is that the console/PC is a one-time purchase no matter how many games you play. Had enough of the latest Call of Battlefield game and want to play Sportsball 2016? Just pay your $50 and use the same hardware you've been using. With 40k (or other miniatures games) you're starting over every time you want to do something new and paying the full "getting started" price.

When you think about it though, what is 40K if not a shooter game?

Uh, no. Other than the fact that they both involve guns they are two entirely different experiences.

However in addition to that you need dice, character sheets, and if you are really going to get into the hobby properly you need miniatures for combat situations.

So, $5-10 for some dice, $1 for all the character sheets you could ever want (freely available online, just print a few copies), and if you're really getting into the game maybe another $5-20 per person for hero miniatures and $20 for a whole bucket of generic monsters from the toy store. IOW, the D&D equivalent of "I LOVE THIS HOBBY I'M BUYING A WARLORD TITAN SQUADRON" is buying $100 or less worth of miniatures.

The last time that I played D&D was Second Edition and literally every character class had a supplemental rule book not unlike the codex books from 40K.

None of which is actually necessary to play the game. D&D does have the flaw of encouraging players to spend most of their time on character optimization and rolling dice to see how many monsters they kill, but that is not in any way an essential part of roleplaying. Those books don't contribute to the story at all, they just give you more dice modifiers to stack up and show how big your character's is. You can play the game just fine without them.

So again, here we have a gaming hobby that is at a minimum going to set you back about $200 to get started and that is still more expensive than Dark Vengeance.

Except that $200 "getting started" price is the entire price of the hobby. If you spend $200 on D&D you're going to be having fun with D&D for a long time and you probably won't have to spend any more money in the foreseeable future. If you spend $200 on 40k you have hundreds of dollars left to spend before you can play even the low end of a standard game.

I speak from first hand experience on this because my group played Dark Heresy first edition and if you plan to be a Game Master in that game you might as well prepare yourself for hours of coming up with your own adventures because there is little offered from Fantasy Flight.

Well yes, GMing requires lots of work and creativity. What does this have to do with the financial cost of games?

However, if you just have the pieces that come in the two sets you may find that you come up short on pieces as the game goes on and have to get creative with using the provided chips.

So what? It's a board game, the tokens are just abstract counters. As long as it is clear what is what you can use any random counters you like without losing anything.

Even still, you are out of pocket $160 to get started in Axis & Allies and that is considered a relatively cheap game to play.

No, it's not really considered a relatively cheap game to play. There are lots of board games that cost $50 or less for a single box and that's all you have to buy.

There are a lot of players that take A&A to the next level by way of constructing impressive gaming tables to hold the massive six foot map that you play on. I personally bought color matched dice for each army and that alone set me back about another $50. Some players buy the miniature tanks and half tracks from GHQ to supplement the pieces in the game with more realistic looking pieces. I looked into this myself and in order to provide the minimum number of needed tanks and half tracks to replace the plastic pieces provided in the game worked out to about $80 per army. There are 8 armies. You do the math. WarHammer still look expensive?

Why are you talking about this extreme fanatic level of spending that virtually nobody is going to even come close to? This is the equivalent of buying a dozen Warlord titans to decorate your gaming room, not a typical investment in the board game hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldzoggy wrote:
You can't play 40k for 30+ years and never have heard of MTG.
It is simply impossible. Almost al stores run on it and there is a huge overlap in player base.

I'm going to give the OP the benefit of the doubt and assume that they've heard of the game, just not the MTG acronym?

tneva82 wrote:


Funny thing about those is that you don't NEED to buy all the books. Pretty much all the RPG's I have played I have got start of by ~30-40€(so 50$ or so?). Which alone gives me tons of hours.

Can I spend more? Well duh of course I can. But I don't need them to start.



You are mistaking starting prices to extending prices. Miniatures classified as required prices for RPG...Sheesh. Why not put in warlord titans as required starting investment to 40k as well!

Yes, but, following that logic, I could buy a Space Marine tactical squad for $30 and play warhammer. I don't need the rules so long as someone else there has them. I can use their dice. I can use their templates. You see how that works. I never once met a single person who got into playing an RPG and the only thing they bought was the Players Handbook or Core rulebook. Maybe you have.

MolonLabe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Funny how I have been able to start multiple games that provide just as much content as 40k for price of 40k army then...

I must be stealing stuff from stores since by your claim it's impossible!

Feel free to share these fantastic games with us.

I already put up above list.

But let's see. LOTW. Say dixon miniatures(those are ones I have). 1.3£ per foot model. Let's say 40 of them to get >50£ order for cheapest postage. So 52£. With postages 59.8£.

How far 40 models get you? 4 starting warbands with spares pretty good estimate. IIRC 15 models is max size in warband so 2 full bands with spare models. So that's 2 players getting more than getting started for 60£...

Necromunda. I started that with catachan box. Hey ho. Not that expensive. 20 guys got me pretty far.

Warmaster ancient isn't that much 62£ gets pretty good start for hail ceasar rules and quick estimate on what it would add up to WMA basing gives pretty good start there as well.

You are just confusing "starting game" to "complete set".

And of course pretty much every RPG. Hell you don't even need to spend one dollar if you don't want(hell you can even legally play D&D for free!)

MolonLabe wrote:
Tell me how two tie fighters and an Xwing is interesting?

Tell me how playing "40k" with just the starter set is interesting?

If you want to dismiss starter-set games in other hobbies as "not interesting" then you need to be consistent about it and apply the same principle to 40k. Playing with just the starter set is boring as hell and don't even think about trying to get a pick up game with it. Unless you have a friend start with you at the same time the only thing the starter set is good for is being the first $100 spent towards buying a real army. And that means you need to consider at least the cost of buying a 1000 point 40k army, the absolute minimum viable force if you want to play the game instead of just congratulating yourself on how cheap your starter set was.

 oldzoggy wrote:
You can't play 40k for 30+ years and never have heard of MTG.
It is simply impossible. Almost al stores run on it and there is a huge overlap in player base.

Well I haven't played 40K for 30 plus years for starters. I've played a lot of different games for 30 years. I've obviously heard of MTG just never seen it referred to as MTG, always just seen it referred to as either Magic or Magic the Gathering. I'm not really one for frequenting gaming forums where evidently the thing to do is bitch about how much 40K costs lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Tell me how two tie fighters and an Xwing is interesting?

Tell me how playing "40k" with just the starter set is interesting?

If you want to dismiss starter-set games in other hobbies as "not interesting" then you need to be consistent about it and apply the same principle to 40k. Playing with just the starter set is boring as hell and don't even think about trying to get a pick up game with it. Unless you have a friend start with you at the same time the only thing the starter set is good for is being the first $100 spent towards buying a real army. And that means you need to consider at least the cost of buying a 1000 point 40k army, the absolute minimum viable force if you want to play the game instead of just congratulating yourself on how cheap your starter set was.

That' a fair point. It's more interesting to me, having done both 40K and X-Wing. It may not be to you. So that's a fair point.

MolonLabe wrote:
I never once met a single person who got into playing an RPG and the only thing they bought was the Players Handbook or Core rulebook. Maybe you have.

Counter-example: I've known lots of people who didn't buy more than the core rulebook, and some who didn't even buy that much. If you join an existing group you'll often find that people already have the rulebooks required (whether legal copies or that guy with a pdf of every RPG book published since 1604) and all you need to do is show up and roll some dice. It's not like you're actually using the rulebooks during the game, they're just reference documents in case you forget a rule. One copy of each for the whole group is easily enough.

 oldzoggy wrote:
An other example. Lets play rogue trader the RPG with friends.
Lets say your group is 5 people. And you buy it all brand new.


-Core rules 60$
-3 Set of D10's 12$
- premade advventure book: Lure of the Expanse 40$

Totals for 112 or around 20$ each and this is when you buy it all brand new. RPG campaign books generally go for a lot cheaper on second hands sites.

And that's probably 2 sets of dices too many(or how many d10's in set comes? I have never needed more than 4-5 dices per type in RPG...) and unneccessary book. You get better scenario ideas free from the net anyway.

MolonLabe wrote:
That' a fair point. It's more interesting to me, having done both 40K and X-Wing. It may not be to you. So that's a fair point.

Having done both they're both boring as hell. Starter set games of "40k" suck, starter set games of X-Wing suck. I wouldn't willingly play either for longer than the absolute minimum required to teach a new player the basic game mechanics.

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Funny how I have been able to start multiple games that provide just as much content as 40k for price of 40k army then...

I must be stealing stuff from stores since by your claim it's impossible!

Feel free to share these fantastic games with us.

I already put up above list.

But let's see. LOTW. Say dixon miniatures(those are ones I have). 1.3£ per foot model. Let's say 40 of them to get >50£ order for cheapest postage. So 52£. With postages 59.8£.

How far 40 models get you? 4 starting warbands with spares pretty good estimate. IIRC 15 models is max size in warband so 2 full bands with spare models. So that's 2 players getting more than getting started for 60£...

Necromunda. I started that with catachan box. Hey ho. Not that expensive. 20 guys got me pretty far.

Warmaster ancient isn't that much 62£ gets pretty good start for hail ceasar rules and quick estimate on what it would add up to WMA basing gives pretty good start there as well.

You are just confusing "starting game" to "complete set".

And of course pretty much every RPG. Hell you don't even need to spend one dollar if you don't want(hell you can even legally play D&D for free!)

Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

MolonLabe wrote:

I'm glad Flames of War is cheaper across the pond because here in the states it is easily far more expensive than 40K.

it is difficult, but because there is Plastic Soldier Company which produce cheap plastic WW2 Minis in 28mm, BF also change to plastic for some stuff and you get Infantry with transport for much less than some years ago.
cheapest list would be a German Heavy Tank list with 1 Box of Tiger tanks and 1 Box Panzer III from PSC and you are done with 50€ for standard size game

a 3 platoon infantry company with company HQ in plastic cost from 30-40€ in now

MolonLabe wrote:

I'm afraid that's just not the case. At a minimum you'll need the core rule book and dice. If you're going to be the DM / GM you'll need a lot more than that. Or maybe your idea of playing an RPG is to let some other player absorb all the cost of getting everything that is actually needed. lol

Sheesh. Okay real life example:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/traveller-1/traveller-core-rulebook.html

That...One...Book...Is all I need to run game of RPG(well okay handful of d6's as well though those everybody tends to have anyway).

That covers every player and GM.

You don't need supplementary books to play RPG. You can yes but that's only if you want. Or do you put in FW models to 40k requirements as well?

Don't let ANYBODY to lie to you. You just need one book. The core book. Period. One book that's enough for every player in the group.

Even THAT book is actually optional. Seriously don't try to claim RPG's are expensive. At it's core you really need only to pay for any drinks your group likes to drink while playing.

MolonLabe wrote:
If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

Yeah, don't you dare use the free rules published by the people who sell D&D, it wouldn't fit the OP's claim that D&D is expensive! You should spend money on paper copies of the rules just to bring the price closer to 40k levels!

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
That' a fair point. It's more interesting to me, having done both 40K and X-Wing. It may not be to you. So that's a fair point.

Having done both they're both boring as hell. Starter set games of "40k" suck, starter set games of X-Wing suck. I wouldn't willingly play either for longer than the absolute minimum required to teach a new player the basic game mechanics.

That's fair, not everyone digs the 40K starter set. I personally think it's okay but to be fair I didn't buy it, my buddy did. I bought a battle box and started with the hardback rules and a codex. But that is because I wanted a specific army and the starter set did not come with the fluff and I really like the lore of 40K. But I have had experience with the starter set and I thought it was more enjoyable than the X-wing starter set.

Still in all, I think there's no denying that you aren't getting started in video games for less money that 40K.

I see you've never been to Australia then mate.

MolonLabe wrote:
Yes, but, following that logic, I could buy a Space Marine tactical squad for $30 and play warhammer. I don't need the rules so long as someone else there has them. I can use their dice. I can use their templates. You see how that works. I never once met a single person who got into playing an RPG and the only thing they bought was the Players Handbook or Core rulebook. Maybe you have.

If you are affraid of one player bearing brunt of prices divide the cost.

But if you think you need to buy the core rulebook(only book you need to buy) for every player then 40k comparison needs to go up. You need to factor in 1850 pts army price for BOTH players. And it still loses because RPG rulebook takes you as far as you want. 40k 1850 pts army you are stuck with that. No options.

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

Yeah, don't you dare use the free rules published by the people who sell D&D, it wouldn't fit the OP's claim that D&D is expensive! You should spend money on paper copies of the rules just to bring the price closer to 40k levels!

If you prefer the PDF stuff have at it. I'm old school I guess. I prefer to have the book.

MolonLabe wrote:
Still in all, I think there's no denying that you aren't getting started in video games for less money that 40K.

I already denied it. Go read my first post in the thread, where I pointed out that the cost of getting started in video games is $5-10 for a classic game to play on the PC/phone/whatever you already own because it's 2016 and everyone who isn't too poor to afford any of these hobbies owns a computer.

Yes, but, following that logic, I could buy a Space Marine tactical squad for $30 and play warhammer. I don't need the rules so long as someone else there has them. I can use their dice. I can use their templates. You see how that works. I never once met a single person who got into playing an RPG and the only thing they bought was the Players Handbook or Core rulebook. Maybe you have.

I definitely have.

I will admit that I feel like RPGs are a bloody expensive hobby, but that's because I'm usually the GM, and so get stuck picking up the tab for most of the books.

at the same time, I bought the Black Crusade core book, and Tome of Fate, Tome of Excess, Tome of Blood & Tome of Decay for significantly less than a 40k army, even if the army was just for me.

But then, our group don't tend to have multiple copies of the rulebooks - precisely the reason we enjoy certain RPGs is that they're the ones which focus on narrative games rather than excessively detailed mechanics, so during play you don't really need a rulebook (other than one for the GM).

It's the reason we've got to like the FFG Star Wars stuff so much.

Klowny wrote:
I see you've never been to Australia then mate.

Australia? LMAO Hey 40K stuff in Australia is freakin expensive. I've seen shop owners here in the US and Canada talk about how the Aussies get ripped off. On that one I'll agree. I don't know why GW puts the screws to Australia but they do. But here in the states, I'm just not entertaining the notion that you can get started in video games, warmachine, flames of war etc etc for cheaper than 40K because you can't.

MolonLabe wrote:
Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

Not many games are sold in Finland either. You do know there's this thing called "post"? I can get miniatures from USA companies. Is USA really so backwater that they cannot get stuff from europe?

I was talking about legal options...Not illegal. You cannot get 40k rules legally for free. You can get core rules of D&D from the producer. You can even take those and do your own supplements etc.

And lol now you are claiming you need to buy everything to not be cheapskate and therefore it's expensive?

Okay by your logic you must buy 3 warlord titans to play 40k. Don't be a cheapskate!

D&D core rules are available for free legally. You don't need more than that to get started. In case you haven't realized RPG's are all about applying your own imagination. You don't need premade world. You don't need n+1 supplements for every class. That's chrome. That's the RPG equilavent of buying heresy space marines for 100£ per 10 guys when you get plastic squads for cheaper just to have markings etc correct.

You...just...need...core rules. That's it. To get started and provide infinite amount of playing time that's all you need to get.

locarno24 wrote:

Yes, but, following that logic, I could buy a Space Marine tactical squad for $30 and play warhammer. I don't need the rules so long as someone else there has them. I can use their dice. I can use their templates. You see how that works. I never once met a single person who got into playing an RPG and the only thing they bought was the Players Handbook or Core rulebook. Maybe you have.

I definitely have.

I will admit that I feel like RPGs are a bloody expensive hobby, but that's because I'm usually the GM, and so get stuck picking up the tab for most of the books.

at the same time, I bought the Black Crusade core book, and Tome of Fate, Tome of Excess, Tome of Blood & Tome of Decay for significantly less than a 40k army, even if the army was just for me.

But then, our group don't tend to have multiple copies of the rulebooks - precisely the reason we enjoy certain RPGs is that they're the ones which focus on narrative games rather than excessively detailed mechanics, so during play you don't really need a rulebook (other than one for the GM).

It's the reason we've got to like the FFG Star Wars stuff so much.

On a side note I just want to say that I've given up on RPGs. Recently tried the Star Wars RPG from Fantasy Flight. They just don't do anything for myself and my group anymore. We've reached a point where we prefer military strategy games and given that I was the DM / GM for my group I couldn't be happier because of the hours spent working up adventures. Just wasn't entertaining anymore.

MolonLabe wrote:
If you prefer the PDF stuff have at it. I'm old school I guess. I prefer to have the book.

Ok, but now we're not talking about the cost to play or the cost to get started, we're talking about the cost to add on extra luxury items with no practical value. It's like saying that regular 40k dice aren't enough, you need tungsten D6s (only about $50 each) because you're classy and hate those cheap plastic D6s.

You know you can get into Bolt Action for $120 right? A full army. You could just play with the starter army forever and have a great time. How can you get into 40k with $120? That covers two troops, an HQ and... maybe a vehicle for most armies.

I don't know the prices where you are but I can't stomach w40k being cheaper than video games. The rest maybe (there seems to be a strong case against that however)

Why?

You can't count the cost of a computer/internet connection in gaming. These are basic things you should expect to have in the 21st century. A video game online costs probably half that of a get started set here, even less if it's a subscription and provides almost unlimited entertainment in and of itself alone. A w40k starter set, does not.

MolonLabe wrote:

Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

We are not talking about piracy or downloading some crappy PDF. No legitimate free rules, that are in many ways superior to books. Books don't have smart search functions nor do they have all sorts of smart filters, automated NPC and treasure generators or all sorts of advantages of not being bound to paper.

DND: 3.5 : http://www.d20srd.org/

Pathfinder: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

you see totally free

But even the example of the Rogue trader RPG you really only need that one book. Half of the book is even GM only. In DND terms it is the Player book, the DM guide and the campaign setting book in one, this isn't uncommon in non DND RPG core books.

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

Not many games are sold in Finland either. You do know there's this thing called "post"? I can get miniatures from USA companies. Is USA really so backwater that they cannot get stuff from europe?

.

Yeah, we're totally backwater dude, that must be it. What a chode.

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
If you prefer the PDF stuff have at it. I'm old school I guess. I prefer to have the book.

Ok, but now we're not talking about the cost to play or the cost to get started, we're talking about the cost to add on extra luxury items with no practical value. It's like saying that regular 40k dice aren't enough, you need tungsten D6s (only about $50 each) because you're classy and hate those cheap plastic D6s.

And hey how much you even USE the rulebook in RPG?

Generally we never dig the rulebook up during the game. It's simply not neccessary. Digging up modifiers up etc isn't what RPG's are about but creating story. Rather than dig up tables what's the modifier for this GM should be coming up appropriate for the situation anyway.

MolonLabe wrote:
Yeah, we're totally backwater dude, that must be it. What a chode.

Whatever part of it you live in sure seems to be, since you're talking about "we don't get that here" like your only source of games is what your local game store offers. My part of the US exists in 2016, and if I want a game that isn't sold locally I just buy it online.

MolonLabe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

Not many games are sold in Finland either. You do know there's this thing called "post"? I can get miniatures from USA companies. Is USA really so backwater that they cannot get stuff from europe?

.

Yeah, we're totally backwater dude, that must be it. What a chode.

Well if you can't buy games from companies not in USA...I can buy games not sold in Europe. What's stopping you from doing the reverse?

"Not sold here" ain't excuse. Doesn't stop me. Am I stealing them out of thin air then?

 oldzoggy wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:

Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

We are not talking about piracy. Just legitimate free rules. That are in many ways superior to books. Books don't have contrl F functions like the digital options have nor do they have all sorts of smart filters, automated NPC and treasure generators or all sorts of other modern ideas

DND: 3.5 : http://www.d20srd.org/

Pathfinder: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

you see totally free

But even the example of the Rogue trader RPG you really only need that one book. Half of the book is even GM only. In DND terms it is the Player book, the DM guide and the campaign setting book in one, this isn't uncommon in non DND RPG core books.

Oh yes, I'm aware of how Rouge Trader rules work. We played Dark Heresy and it's laid out the same way. Again, I could just buy a $30 box of Space Marines and play using this same logic as one book for the whole group, one set of dice for the whole group etc etc. I can just show up with my tactical squad and rely on everyone else in the group for the rest of the stuff I need. Doesn't really work.

Or if you are into the classics you could go on ebay and buy the darksun box set (one of the best DND RPG settings ever made) for $60
http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Advanced-Dungeons-and-Dragons-Edition-Dark-Sun-darksun-Box-Set-/262538419941?hash=item3d20825ee5:g:5FUAAOSwRgJXh80F

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Hold on a second. Keep in mind that some of the games you are talking about are not ever sold here. Mini war gaming is far more popular across Europe than it is in America so we don't get a lot of the games you get there. Yes you can play D&D for free if you use the PDF downloads. I can also find the 40K rules in PDF here and then I can supplement bottle caps and poker chips for space marines and orks if I wanted. If you're going to get into a hobby don't be a cheap skate.

Not many games are sold in Finland either. You do know there's this thing called "post"? I can get miniatures from USA companies. Is USA really so backwater that they cannot get stuff from europe?

.

Yeah, we're totally backwater dude, that must be it. What a chode.

Well if you can't buy games from companies not in USA...I can buy games not sold in Europe. What's stopping you from doing the reverse?

"Not sold here" ain't excuse. Doesn't stop me. Am I stealing them out of thin air then?

Because they are European based games they are rarely ever played here so you're talking about games that I have never played or heard of by virtue of the fact that nobody here plays them even though yes we can order them. People tend to play what others in their area are playing. As a result you aren't going to find Americans playing a game that is popular across Europe because they won't have any other players here to game with. Keep in mind that miniature war gaming is far more widespread and popular there where as here in the US it's pretty much WarHammer, WarMachine, some Infinity and Flames of War and that's about all aside from Xwing or Armada.

MolonLabe wrote:
Again, I could just buy a $30 box of Space Marines and play using this same logic as one book for the whole group, one set of dice for the whole group etc etc. I can just show up with my tactical squad and rely on everyone else in the group for the rest of the stuff I need. Doesn't really work.

Except that isn't comparable at all. If you buy one copy of the RPG book (and $5 worth of dice) for the whole group then you have everything you need to play. The book only comes out if someone says "hey, what's that rule again?" and you briefly look something up, having each player have a book sitting there collecting dust adds nothing to the game experience. But showing up with just your one tactical squad means you probably aren't going to have a game at all, and even if you somehow find someone to loan you the rest of an army you miss all of the customization parts of 40k.

The recurring theme here is that you "prove" that 40k isn't too expensive by stripping down the 40k purchases to absurd unrealistic levels and fluffing out the alternative hobby with a bunch of luxury spending. That's dishonest, and is rapidly demonstrating that you're way more interested in "proving" that 40k is cheap than in having a constructive discussion about the cost of hobbies.

MolonLabe wrote:

Oh yes, I'm aware of how Rouge Trader rules work. We played Dark Heresy and it's laid out the same way. Again, I could just buy a $30 box of Space Marines and play using this same logic as one book for the whole group, one set of dice for the whole group etc etc. I can just show up with my tactical squad and rely on everyone else in the group for the rest of the stuff I need. Doesn't really work.

Tactical squad doesn't provide infinite amount of hours(well okay there's limit. your life span). RPG rules do.

You don't seriously claim you need to buy premade campaigns to play RPG? What a poor imagination your group has then...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Except that isn't comparable at all. If you buy one copy of the RPG book (and $5 worth of dice) for the whole group then you have everything you need to play. The book only comes out if someone says "hey, what's that rule again?" and you briefly look something up,

And even in those it's often better and faster for GM to simply say how it goes...

GM trumps rulebook. 100% times.

Tabletop IS expensive in general, but 40k shine through being, if not the MOST expensive, one of them.

I might agree as far as getting started but unde the condition you start trhough my so beloved second hand market and share the supplies buying with a fellow. Otherwise, well, just take a look at it and what do oyu see? Bundles with 0 euros, dollars, pounds or whatever you want, a rulebook divided in three to have you believe you had a great deal for 2 you didn't need at all and a single one out of those going to serv.

Then take a look at the minis: they do are expensive! when I draw a comparison with Warlord Games who sells you a légal infantry platoon composed of at least 25 infantry models at barely 30 euros, I mean, how easy it is to get that here's a problem with GW's pricing! You can argue GW's are buy far better designed but it's wrong. The differenc as far as quality is neglictable, i'd even add that their tank are far better detailed!! And still they do remain way cheaper.

Even the books related are cheaper: the rulebook is Worth like 30 euros ad includes four army lists allowing you to play UK, USA, Germany or USSR without buying any further book! [color=black] And even if you buy them, they're barely Worth 15 euros whereas a 40k codex is at least 33!!

Those who frequently ome across me have noticed it, i can't help drawing this W-comparison between warlord a games, and I effectivly do because it's the evidence it IS possible not to fool your customers. And if I had to mentally tell what I've sunk in 40K and Bolt Action, I'd ay like 300 euros for the first one Under the conditions I already have quoted above, needless to say it's far worst than the 170 euros I've given to Bolt Action...

But as Accept has sung, It just ain't over yet! No only is it more expensive but the rest of GW m 's behavor just seems not to make the game any Worth what you gave it. Imbalanced, no brain, that's what they nowadays are doing my good sir!

My view is that the game is fairly doing in agony if that isn't already achieved. The universe and atmosphere duriong casual games is what got m in, and I still really enjoy a game, still really enjoy having a talk at the fluff, but I as well can have great entairntment playing this awesome BA and talking about WW2. You see? I can find the same greatness and points in laods of other and what you pay for getting involved in tabletop s priced after how much to achieve it. An according to this, 40k is too expensive as a game and deserves no defence but that we turn to Something else when it comes to spending our money. [color=black]

To conclude, I support oldzoggy point of view when he says that it's more revealing a happy rich state of mind than a real in depth and fact-based thought.

Nothing personnal, just up in arms against such kind of behavor and fact-negasionism.

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:

Oh yes, I'm aware of how Rouge Trader rules work. We played Dark Heresy and it's laid out the same way. Again, I could just buy a $30 box of Space Marines and play using this same logic as one book for the whole group, one set of dice for the whole group etc etc. I can just show up with my tactical squad and rely on everyone else in the group for the rest of the stuff I need. Doesn't really work.

Tactical squad doesn't provide infinite amount of hours(well okay there's limit. your life span). RPG rules do.

You don't seriously claim you need to buy premade campaigns to play RPG? What a poor imagination your group has then...
.

Do they even make adventure modules for the Fantasy Flight RPG's. I never used them. I had to generate all of our adventures from scratch and frankly as you get older you just do not have the time to do it. At least with miniature painting I can dedicate a couple hours here and there and then come back to it later. Oh and as far as I'm concerned, core rules alone does not provide infinite hours of fun either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
T

To conclude, I support oldzoggy point of view when he says that it's more revealing a happy rich state of mind than a real in depth and fact-based thought.

Nothing personnal, just up in arms against such kind of behavor and fact-negasionism.

LOL You can support whatever you like, it's doesn't make it so. Neither of you know a thing about me, my state of mind or any other such nonsense that you think you can glean from an internet forum post. Get over yourselves.


Oh by the way, here in the US Warlord Games costs you $40 for the rule book and $112 for the starter sets which means, . . . . . wait for it . . .. that's right boys and girls it's just as expensive as 40K. lol

http://us-store.warlordgames.com/

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh and as far as I'm concerned, core rules alone does not provide infinite hours of fun either.

Only because you want someone to hand you a pre-written story and have your group roll dice as you follow the script. If you're willing to invest the work to do roleplaying the much more fun way all you need is the core rules because you're writing the story yourself.

I had to generate all of our adventures from scratch and frankly as you get older you just do not have the time to do it. At least with miniature painting I can dedicate a couple hours here and there and then come back to it later.

Isn't the subject of this thread supposed to be "financial cost of gaming hobbies", not "how do you like to spend your gaming time"? I'm glad you enjoy painting more than writing roleplaying stuff, but that has nothing to do with the topic here.

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh and as far as I'm concerned, core rules alone does not provide infinite hours of fun either.

Only because you want someone to hand you a pre-written story and have your group roll dice as you follow the script. If you're willing to invest the work to do roleplaying the much more fun way all you need is the core rules because you're writing the story yourself.

I had to generate all of our adventures from scratch and frankly as you get older you just do not have the time to do it. At least with miniature painting I can dedicate a couple hours here and there and then come back to it later.

Isn't the subject of this thread supposed to be "financial cost of gaming hobbies", not "how do you like to spend your gaming time"? I'm glad you enjoy painting more than writing roleplaying stuff, but that has nothing to do with the topic here.

Are you paying attention at all? I already clearly stated we never used adventure modules. I don't even know if they make any for the Fantasy Flight stuff.

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh by the way, here in the US Warlord Games costs you $40 for the rule book and $112 for the starter sets which means, . . . . . wait for it . . .. that's right boys and girls it's just as expensive as 40K. lol

http://us-store.warlordgames.com/

And here you go again with the absurd comparison to the 40k starter set. The starter set for 40k is not the real game. Nobody is going to play against you in a pickup game if all you can bring is a starter set worth of models, so realistically you need at least 1000 points to start playing (and that's still a very small game, it's just barely big enough that someone might willingly play with you at that level). And that's going to cost you way more than $150.

You know I never got a reply to how Mantic fits into this. Again, cheaper in every way than GW, I don't think anyone can possibly argue that. Sure you can argue they have worse models, but that is not the argument at hand.

MolonLabe wrote:
Are you paying attention at all? I already clearly stated we never used adventure modules.

That's funny, because your listing of the costs to play D&D sure made it sound like pre-written adventure books are an essential purchase. Are you going to remove that part from your OP, and reduce the cost of RPGs to just the core rulebooks?

Hurrah this weeks version of this thread, I was kind of getting bored of last weeks version, let us rehash all the same arguments as ever,

 oldzoggy wrote:
Or if you are into the classics you could go on ebay and buy the darksun box set (one of the best DND RPG settings ever made) for $60
http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Advanced-Dungeons-and-Dragons-Edition-Dark-Sun-darksun-Box-Set-/262538419941?hash=item3d20825ee5:g:5FUAAOSwRgJXh80F

Hey I had a DM that used the Dark Sun setting years ago. Always enjoyed that one.

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh by the way, here in the US Warlord Games costs you $40 for the rule book and $112 for the starter sets which means, . . . . . wait for it . . .. that's right boys and girls it's just as expensive as 40K. lol

http://us-store.warlordgames.com/

And then how much more mileage you get out of that? 40k starter sets don't go that far. Warlord ones are better deals. So again 40k loses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh and as far as I'm concerned, core rules alone does not provide infinite hours of fun either.

So you really need company to tell you how to play RPG? Sheesh. What your GM then does? Just go through premade rules with premade scenarios?

WHAT you need to buy then that you can't make up your own? Setting? Like 95% RPG's I know run on their own.

I don't really get it.
If I start Star Trek Attack Wing it'll cost me about 30€. Dark Vengeance is already at 85€. Going from there every additional expansion in Attack Wing costs 14,50€ and has everything in it, while I'll need a Chaos codes or Dark Angels Codex if I build up one of those starting forces. With a start collecting box that's already 65€ + Codex for 39€. The start collecting box has 3 units in it so let's say it's the equivalent of 3 attack wing ships. I already have 6 ships in attack Wing now with which I can make a full sized battle for two players(!) (3v3 is the tourney game size), while I'll have with Dark Vengeance + start collecting I'll have an army of about 1000points, so a rather small 40K game. At this point 40K cost me already 85€+65€+39€. Attack Wing cost me 30€+about 45€. Gaming mats cost about the same for both systems (attack wings are cheaper because they are smaller, but we can ignore it). And it doesn't get cheaper from now on, because now in 40K I probably want to have knights, or terminators, or big tanks. Or if I decide to take Imperial Guard from now on I'm screwed anyway .
I think the only way to do it cheaper than Dark Vengeance is probably Grey knights. 4 packs of Termis + Librarian are 140€ + 20€ for some HQ + 39€ Codex. Still 200€, for which I can get.... 11ships + starter set in Attack Wing. That's a whole armada already and aside federation you'll have all the ships necessary for at least two factions.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Hurrah this weeks version of this thread, I was kind of getting bored of last weeks version, let us rehash all the same arguments as ever,

lol You're welcome.

Also, you can't even get your facts right. The $112 Warlord Games starter set includes the rulebook, you don't have to spend $40 to buy another copy.

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh by the way, here in the US Warlord Games costs you $40 for the rule book and $112 for the starter sets which means, . . . . . wait for it . . .. that's right boys and girls it's just as expensive as 40K. lol

http://us-store.warlordgames.com/

And then how much more mileage you get out of that? 40k starter sets don't go that far. Warlord ones are better deals. So again 40k loses.

Really, they don't go for that? I can get Dark Vengeance from Amazon for $99. lol Oh that's a starter set by the way.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Also, you can't even get your facts right. The $112 Warlord Games starter set includes the rulebook, you don't have to spend $40 to buy another copy.

Oh good, because the Dark Vengeance set also include the rule book, plus templates and dice. Actually I wasn't making reference to the rule book as being needed with the starter set for warlords. I was just pointing out that the warlords rule book costs about the same as the 40K books.

MolonLabe wrote:
Really, they don't go for that? I can get Dark Vengeance from Amazon for $99. lol Oh that's a starter set by the way.

They don't go that far as in you can't do that much with them. You're spending $99 for Dark Vengeance, but then you're spending hundreds of dollars more to get to the ~1000 points you need as a realistic minimum to even consider playing real games. $99 for Dark Vengeance has absolutely nothing to do with the real cost of the hobby.

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Really, they don't go for that? I can get Dark Vengeance from Amazon for $99. lol Oh that's a starter set by the way.

They don't go that far as in you can't do that much with them. You're spending $99 for Dark Vengeance, but then you're spending hundreds of dollars more to get to the ~1000 points you need as a realistic minimum to even consider playing real games. $99 for Dark Vengeance has absolutely nothing to do with the real cost of the hobby.

As many of your fellow posters have so adamantly pointed out, stay on topic. We are talking about getting started costs, not down the road costs. As for "how far they go" its purely speculative.

@MolonLabe
You'll never put that meme to rest, but it is plucky of you to try.

Personally I don't think 40k is overly expensive considering the model scale.

MolonLabe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Oh by the way, here in the US Warlord Games costs you $40 for the rule book and $112 for the starter sets which means, . . . . . wait for it . . .. that's right boys and girls it's just as expensive as 40K. lol

http://us-store.warlordgames.com/

And then how much more mileage you get out of that? 40k starter sets don't go that far. Warlord ones are better deals. So again 40k loses.

Really, they don't go for that? I can get Dark Vengeance from Amazon for $99. lol Oh that's a starter set by the way.

No the dark vengeance doesn't get you far. Warlord one gives you lot more playing hours. And you "conveniently" forgot to mention that box has rulebook suggesting you need starter set AND rulebook in your quest to twist facts to support your claim. Truth is irrelevant eh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MolonLabe wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Really, they don't go for that? I can get Dark Vengeance from Amazon for $99. lol Oh that's a starter set by the way.

They don't go that far as in you can't do that much with them. You're spending $99 for Dark Vengeance, but then you're spending hundreds of dollars more to get to the ~1000 points you need as a realistic minimum to even consider playing real games. $99 for Dark Vengeance has absolutely nothing to do with the real cost of the hobby.

As many of your fellow posters have so adamantly pointed out, stay on topic. We are talking about getting started costs, not down the road costs. As for "how far they go" its purely speculative.

You are talking down the road costs all the time here claiming you need hundreds of dollars of books to start RPG's or GHQ models for board games.

Fine. 40k requires you 2000 pts worth of forge world miniatures to start.

tneva82 wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:


You are talking down the road costs all the time here claiming you need hundreds of dollars of books to start RPG's or GHQ models for board games.

Fine. 40k requires you 2000 pts worth of forge world miniatures to start.

Oh I know, but I was told that's not allowed. By the way when I talked about GHQ models for A&A that was talking about something people do to enhance the game. I clearly stated that the starting costs is $160 for A&A and that the other stuff was just stuff that people do to enhance the game. I fully agree that to really enjoy a hobby it's going to cost you money so bitching about how much 40K costs is pointless. If you think it's too expensive, quit.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

MolonLabe wrote:
Again, I could just buy a $30 box of Space Marines and play using this same logic as one book for the whole group, one set of dice for the whole group etc etc. I can just show up with my tactical squad and rely on everyone else in the group for the rest of the stuff I need. Doesn't really work.

Except that isn't comparable at all. If you buy one copy of the RPG book (and $5 worth of dice) for the whole group then you have everything you need to play. The book only comes out if someone says "hey, what's that rule again?" and you briefly look something up, having each player have a book sitting there collecting dust adds nothing to the game experience. But showing up with just your one tactical squad means you probably aren't going to have a game at all, and even if you somehow find someone to loan you the rest of an army you miss all of the customization parts of 40k.

The recurring theme here is that you "prove" that 40k isn't too expensive by stripping down the 40k purchases to absurd unrealistic levels and fluffing out the alternative hobby with a bunch of luxury spending. That's dishonest, and is rapidly demonstrating that you're way more interested in "proving" that 40k is cheap than in having a constructive discussion about the cost of hobbies.

Hey if you guys want to claim that you only need one book for six people to play an RPG that's cool. I've never seen a group that cheap but I guess it's possible. If I want to get started in an RPG I don't call up my buddy and say "You buy the rule book and I'll just use your stuff." lol By the way, how exactly do you know how to play if you don't have a rule book?