Selym wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Wait your objection is that this codex has random Warlord traits just like any other codex ?

No, it's the part where every single trait adds more dice rolling, and that one of them is just free damage on the enemy, that uses a silly and abstract random mechanic that makes no damn sense.

K I officially lost you.

Lets compare this with lets say the anti Xenos inquisitor warlord table. Since this might be would the closest thing to compare it with

1- Unquestionable Wisdom: The Warlord and his unit can choose to pass or fail any Morale Test.
2- Reader of the Tarot: While the Warlord is alive, you can roll two dice and choose the more favorable result when rolling for Reserves, Outflank, Mysterious Terrain, and Mysterious Objectives.
3- Burner of Worlds: Once per game, orbital bombardment (infinite range, S10 AP1, Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Barrage, and Orbital).
4- Xeno Hunter: The Warlord and his unit have Preferred Enemy (Xenos)
5-Xenotech Collector: The Warlord gains a 6++, and one of the Warlord's ranged weapons gains S+1 and Rending
6-Purity of Mankind: hatred

Extra die rolls on 2,4,5 and 6
Free weapon on 3

DW table:
Extra die rolls on 1,2,3,5
Free weapon on 6

I honestly don't see how this is all that different from the new DW warlord table.

He/She isn't saying it's not balanced, as in Deathwatch is OP, if I'm comprehending correctly. It's that there is too much randomness.

With that said, can't that hit things locked in combat too? It's not a shooting attack.

Nobody with a half-sane mind could possibly think GW was going to start balancing 40k after the releases of the last year and a half or so. They've gone out of their way to do the opposite to push new sales via absurdly overpowered rules and random tables just for its own sake.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Random tables aren't killing 40k. An overpowered shooting phase, GW's inability to correctly point cost units, and high volume grav being great against almost everything (especially immobilizing vehicles) is what's killing 40k.

Random tables are definitely a part of that. Nested random results inside of random tables further complicates things. Yes all the other stuff you mentioned matters too, but random tables definitely are also a problem.

Hell even the Cadian Warlord Traits aren't that different

1 Master Orator: Warlord gains Zealot.
2 Dead-eye Shot: Warlord gets +2 BS, his unit gets +1 BS.
3 Artillery Veteran: Orbital strike
4 Unflappable Stoicism: units within 12" of warlord don't take morale tests for suffering 25% or more casualties.
5 Above the Thundering Gun: one more command each turn
6 Staunch Traditionalist: must issue and accept challenges and can re-roll failed to hit and to wound in challenges.

Extra rolls 1,5,6
Free weapon 3

Or the eldar ones

1 Ambush of Blades: Single use. all units within 12" to re-roll 1s To Wound for a whole phase
2 An Eye on Distant Events: You can give D3 units the Scout special rule
3 Falcon's Swiftness: The Warlord and his unit get +3" when running.
4 Fate's Messenger: The Warlord can re-roll all saving throws of 1.
5 Mark of the Incomparable Hunter: The Warlord gets Split Fire.
6 Seer of the Shifting Vector: Deep Striking Eldar won't scatter if they land within 12" of the Warlord. nonetheless

Extra rolls on 1,2,4
And the other buffs are just better then a 12" crappy weapon.

Zoggy. It has NOTHING to do with power levels. At all.

This

 Selym wrote:
Zoggy. It has NOTHING to do with power levels. At all.

totally contradicts this

If anyone hoped GW was going to start balancing 40k... Nope.

Balance is has everything to do with power lvs.
So what is it ? You seem to have an aversion for extra die rolls (or warlord trait tables in general) but the DW they doesn't really add that much extra die rolls than the INQ, IG or Eldar ones and allmost all of them have some kind of extra weapon.

It's more the randomness. Randomness is being used as an excuse to avoid balance hence the issue. Or at least that's what I think it is.

But why'd the OP think that the DW book was suddenly going to reverse the trend of two editions?

It just seems like a bizarre and arbitrary point to make an argument that most are already aware is a problem and it isn't even a particularly egregious example of how random=balanced in the current edition.

We have psychic powers for that.

Yeah or those tactical objective cards...

Much of this discussion assumes that GW is motivated to find balance in the game.

That they are concerned that your ITC Super Bowl invitational might be "ruined" because Timmy brought that army with the Warlord table that makes everyone salty, etc.

It is quite possible that they are simply unconcerned w/ sportshammer players and don't care to entertain their demands. Sales seem to be good and the tourney crowd makes their own FAQs and rules up now anyways so why should GW bother really?

Sales are good?

You mean you class the years of contraction of revenue, and the fact that it was an essentially one off payment from a successful license that stopped them posting a massive drop in profits as good?!

GW have heard the issues people have with the game, there's any amount of evidence to support that, and are changing to reflect it.

Your point simply has no basis in fact.

 CT GAMER wrote:
Much of this discussion assumes that GW is motivated to find balance in the game.
That they are concerned that your ITC Super Bowl invitational might be "ruined" because Timmy brought that army with the Warlord table that makes everyone salty, etc.
It is quite possible that they are simply unconcerned w/ sportshammer players and don't care to entertain their demands. Sales seem to be good and the tourney crowd makes their own FAQs and rules up now anyways so why should GW bother really?

Thats an other discussion. The point is that the DW warlord traits don't really seem to be that unbalanced at all when you compare them with the other warlord traits out there.
Sure you could argue that warlord traits as a whole are a flawed mechanism, but these specificly aren't worse than most warlord trait tables out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't think that GW doesn't care that much about balance. Sure they did a while back but the huge success of them rebalancing AoS suggests that they do care enough to make the switch.
The DW codex just isn't the place to balance 40k. What did you expect. A DW codex with mandatory nerfs for all broken things in 40k ?

 oldzoggy wrote:
This

 Selym wrote:
Zoggy. It has NOTHING to do with power levels. At all.

totally contradicts this

If anyone hoped GW was going to start balancing 40k... Nope.

Balance is has everything to do with power lvs.

My post is not about the DW codex's power level. It is to do with the ability to balance the game and make it playable. DW could be either the most or least powerful codex, but when GW puts out gak like this, it makes having a fair game impossible.

But how's it different from literally every other codex since CSM 6th Ed?

The fact that it isn't is the issue.

I love this table. The idea of the lance strike feels more like a thunderhawk doing a straffing run, or the orbital bombardment nailing the whole battlefield.

*poops spore mines at Deathwatch Captain*

 Selym wrote:
The fact that it isn't is the issue.

What gave you the impression that a 7th edition codex would differ from all the other 7th (and 6th) edition codexes?

I think the way you phrased it was weird op. You made it sound like the DW was the problem and power creep. Not randomness. Next time put the main issue first and let us know its randomness than list the DW as an example and maybe one more.

I honestly thought you were talking about them being OP which they are not by any means. They are actually at a good level in my eyes.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
The fact that it isn't is the issue.

What gave you the impression that a 7th edition codex would differ from all the other 7th (and 6th) edition codexes?

Nothing particularly. But you would hope that GW, what with the recent turnarounds, would have at least tried.

How could they? They're trapped in the format of the edition, like I've already said, we can't realistically look for substantive change until 8th hits.

 Azreal13 wrote:
How could they? They're trapped in the format of the edition, like I've already said, we can't realistically look for substantive change until 8th hits.

I agree with this - GW wouldn't back down on their current way in terms of the 40K TT game in an attempt to balance the game out. And that's if they even think the game is not balanced.

They clearly like the idea of random chance in the game, so much of it is a lot of chancing throughout, and that's before we touch on their love for tables to roll on for traits, psychic powers, gifts of Chaos etc. I wouldn't be surprised if 8th also has these. Let's just hope the actual things they write down next to those dice rolls makes more sense.

And don't worry Selym, we Blood Ravens have about 3000 drop pods that we can just throw at the enemy instead of waiting for those smoke signals to go off on a cloudy day. Or how about you try our new Terminator suits, fitted with what I like to call flip packs

G.A

 General Annoyance wrote:

And don't worry Selym, we Blood Ravens have about 3000 drop pods that we can just throw at the enemy instead of waiting for those smoke signals to go off on a cloudy day. Or how about you try our new Terminator suits, fitted with what I like to call flip packs

G.A

Bruvah, they are a hit!

 Selym wrote:
Bruvah, they are a hit!

Boreale would be so proud of us

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Bruvah, they are a hit!

Boreale would be so proud of us

Someone needs to model him with the Heavy Thunder Hammer from DW.

 Selym wrote:

Someone needs to model him with the Heavy Thunder Hammer from DW.

Consider it done... by me in the near future



Those Metal Bawkses won't know what hit 'em

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier and fluffier to resolve an orbital strike as a Barrage Blast of some sort?

No idea why they didn't just copypaste the Orbital Bombardment rules from the Chapter Master profile as a one-shot S10 AP2 Ordnance Barrage Large Blast.

Why is the Watch Captain's strike only limited to 12"? "Yes, call down an orbital strike here!" "++But sir, that's just a charge distance away from you! Won't you be caught in the blast?++" "NONSENSE! FIRE THE CANNONS!"

"Danger close" fire mission. There are protocols for it in current military doctrines.

Not really surprised. Chaos Daemons got these in their Warlord traits too. That Warp Tether is just comically insane compared to everything else on the Tzeentch Warlord table.

And don't even get me started on Psychic Powers.

Even under Rountree, GW might consider this edition to be a wash. Which also means that 8th is a completely blind crapshoot.

 chromedog wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier and fluffier to resolve an orbital strike as a Barrage Blast of some sort?

No idea why they didn't just copypaste the Orbital Bombardment rules from the Chapter Master profile as a one-shot S10 AP2 Ordnance Barrage Large Blast.

Why is the Watch Captain's strike only limited to 12"? "Yes, call down an orbital strike here!" "++But sir, that's just a charge distance away from you! Won't you be caught in the blast?++" "NONSENSE! FIRE THE CANNONS!"

"Danger close" fire mission. There are protocols for it in current military doctrines.

Bout our ordinance is a lot more accurate than that used in the 40K universe.

"Oh hey, Bobicus the Librarian, glad to see you on the battlefield today. How's about making us all strong with your space magic?"

"I can't do that."

"Why not? You did it less than 24 hours ago and it was awesome."

"Today I only know how to make you invisible. But if the battle continues tomorrow I might be able to make you all strong and tough. Maybe not. We'll see."

And Lance batteries aren't 100 km snipers. They are 40,000 km WMD's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

"Today I only know how to make you invisible. But if the battle continues tomorrow I might be able to make you all strong and tough. Maybe not. We'll see."

This stupidity is exactly why my DW Librarian is a Blood Raven. The fluff is that he mysteriously loots stuff, but is unhelpful af with his space magic.

Wtf is wrong with GW?

 Selym wrote:
And Lance batteries aren't 100 km snipers. They are 40,000 km WMD's.

At 100km ranges for snipers, I think the curve of the planet would make it so you're normally shooting through the planet and the enemy gets hit by a shot that comes out from the ground, even if you are using a laser weapon.

Side note, laser weapons would be good for snipers IRL if we can get a man-portable one to be lethal, due to the total lack of recoil due to lasers having no mass due to being made of light.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And Lance batteries aren't 100 km snipers. They are 40,000 km WMD's.

At 100km ranges for snipers, I think the curve of the planet would make it so you're normally shooting through the planet and the enemy gets hit by a shot that comes out from the ground, even if you are using a laser weapon.

I'm talking orbital snipers. You'd think that cannons with barrels bigger than warlord titans would make some boom on the ground, but no.

 Selym wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And Lance batteries aren't 100 km snipers. They are 40,000 km WMD's.

At 100km ranges for snipers, I think the curve of the planet would make it so you're normally shooting through the planet and the enemy gets hit by a shot that comes out from the ground, even if you are using a laser weapon.

I'm talking orbital snipers. You'd think that cannons with barrels bigger than warlord titans would make some boom on the ground, but no.

I assumed they made a spaceship weapon specifically for this kind of pinpoint shooting. It seems the least dumb explanation.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And Lance batteries aren't 100 km snipers. They are 40,000 km WMD's.

At 100km ranges for snipers, I think the curve of the planet would make it so you're normally shooting through the planet and the enemy gets hit by a shot that comes out from the ground, even if you are using a laser weapon.

Side note, laser weapons would be good for snipers IRL if we can get a man-portable one to be lethal, due to the total lack of recoil due to lasers having no mass due to being made of light.

They would have recoil. Photons still have momentum.

And such a weapon would be highly susceptible to environmental issues such as dust or humidity.

pm713 wrote:

 Selym wrote:


I'm talking orbital snipers. You'd think that cannons with barrels bigger than warlord titans would make some boom on the ground, but no.

I assumed they made a spaceship weapon specifically for this kind of pinpoint shooting. It seems the least dumb explanation.

Lance Batteries are designed to punch holes straight through enemy battleships - I don't recall them being used frequently from orbit against ground targets instead of Macro Cannon Batteries, which are far better suited for that. Plus Lance Batteries are typically mounted on the top half of Imperial ships, so unless we're talking about Space Stations here, the ship would have to be nearly upside down to fire them at the ground.

Hope you brought some sickie bags

 General Annoyance wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Selym wrote:


I'm talking orbital snipers. You'd think that cannons with barrels bigger than warlord titans would make some boom on the ground, but no.

I assumed they made a spaceship weapon specifically for this kind of pinpoint shooting. It seems the least dumb explanation.

Lance Batteries are designed to punch holes straight through enemy battleships - I don't recall them being used frequently from orbit against ground targets instead of Macro Cannon Batteries, which are far better suited for that.

Which begs the question of "Why the eternal-rules-lawyering feth did GW say Lance Batterise for all Orbital Strike attacks?"

Though, tbf, a macro-cannon hit is not going to leave you a battlefield to fight on.

 Pouncey wrote:
"Oh hey, Bobicus the Librarian, glad to see you on the battlefield today. How's about making us all strong with your space magic?"

"I can't do that."

"Why not? You did it less than 24 hours ago and it was awesome."

"Today I only know how to make you invisible. But if the battle continues tomorrow I might be able to make you all strong and tough. Maybe not. We'll see."

He then walks over to Captain Koqinbrayn and asks about the orbital lance strikes.

"No Lance strikes tomorrow, but look! My gun magically turned shinier and more accurate!"

"But what happened to the Lance Strike?"

"SPACE ACE"

 Selym wrote:


Which begs the question of "Why the eternal-rules-lawyering feth did GW say Lance Batterise for all Orbital Strike attacks?"

You just need to look deep into your own heart, and forge that damn narrative!

But seriously, the bigger gripe I have with Orbital strikes is that they only manage to create a large blast template. They may as well be throwing an Ork prisoner down to the planet's surface in a cargo crate to create that small an impact.

Though, tbf, a macro-cannon hit is not going to leave you a battlefield to fight on.

A full battery of them perhaps, but given how inaccurate they are, most of them will probably miss and hit that holy shrine that we were trying to defend from xenos filth. Truth is Imperial Battleships don't have many weapons that won't tear the very ground of a planet asunder, since they're all designed to shred enemy ships in deep space with no need to regard for overkill.

Now if Orbital Strikes are being delivered by orbiting weapons platforms, this can make sense, since lasers don't disperse any kinetic energy when they hit something; a small Lance Battery would create a very small, but extremely hot and deadly, ring of destruction on the battlefield below, possibly cutting through the ground due to the extreme heat it relies on to penetrate armour. And those platforms can aim themselves properly towards a planet's surface using retro thrusters. Sounds a lot more viable than a whole Battleship doing the same thing, which it'd probably have to be out of orbit to perform such a manoeuvre.

Either way, a large blast is too small. Needs to be more on level with an apocalypse template.

G.A

 oldzoggy wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:
Much of this discussion assumes that GW is motivated to find balance in the game.
That they are concerned that your ITC Super Bowl invitational might be "ruined" because Timmy brought that army with the Warlord table that makes everyone salty, etc.
It is quite possible that they are simply unconcerned w/ sportshammer players and don't care to entertain their demands. Sales seem to be good and the tourney crowd makes their own FAQs and rules up now anyways so why should GW bother really?

Thats an other discussion. The point is that the DW warlord traits don't really seem to be that unbalanced at all when you compare them with the other warlord traits out there.
Sure you could argue that warlord traits as a whole are a flawed mechanism, but these specificly aren't worse than most warlord trait tables out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't think that GW doesn't care that much about balance. Sure they did a while back but the huge success of them rebalancing AoS suggests that they do care enough to make the switch.
The DW codex just isn't the place to balance 40k. What did you expect. A DW codex with mandatory nerfs for all broken things in 40k ?

Personally I'm not bothered by much of anything in 40k. I'm not a tourney/sportshammer player so I don't lose sleep over this kind of stuff. I buy pretty models, roll some dice and have some laughs with friends. The game is whatever GW decides it is. Sometimes you have the nasty stuff, sometimes your opponent does. Cry less, roll more. Everything will be turned upside down come
Next codex/rules revision anyways...

Na it isn't that I care that mch about the balance, tha can be figured out between players. But I do care about having no casual players around to play with due to high prices, no point sytem and an inferior rules set


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All this has nearly nothing to do with the barely game affecting random deviation in generated warlordtraits.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And Lance batteries aren't 100 km snipers. They are 40,000 km WMD's.

At 100km ranges for snipers, I think the curve of the planet would make it so you're normally shooting through the planet and the enemy gets hit by a shot that comes out from the ground, even if you are using a laser weapon.

Side note, laser weapons would be good for snipers IRL if we can get a man-portable one to be lethal, due to the total lack of recoil due to lasers having no mass due to being made of light.

They would have recoil. Photons still have momentum.

And such a weapon would be highly susceptible to environmental issues such as dust or humidity.

What?

How can a photon have momentum if it has no mass?

Indeed there would be no recoil whatsoever on a Lance since no moving parts are needed to generate the beam, and lasers don't transfer any kinetic energy. However, the focusing elements and optics could indeed be affected by dust that would inhibit their ability to fire properly or at all.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Indeed there would be no recoil whatsoever on a Lance since no moving parts are needed to generate the beam, and lasers don't transfer any kinetic energy. However, the focusing elements and optics could indeed be affected by dust that would inhibit their ability to fire properly or at all.

So it's primarily an issue of weatherproofing the weapon then?

Also I guess you probably wouldn't want to use it in the rain due to refraction.

Let's nor forget refraction in the atmosphere, disturbances from the magnetic field, and particles of air that the laser would burn through. All would have an effect.

Pouncey wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:
Indeed there would be no recoil whatsoever on a Lance since no moving parts are needed to generate the beam, and lasers don't transfer any kinetic energy. However, the focusing elements and optics could indeed be affected by dust that would inhibit their ability to fire properly or at all.

So it's primarily an issue of weatherproofing the weapon then?

Also I guess you probably wouldn't want to use it in the rain due to refraction.

Selym wrote:Let's nor forget refraction in the atmosphere, disturbances from the magnetic field, and particles of air that the laser would burn through. All would have an effect.

Come to think of those, I think Lance Weapons were most certainly designed for deep space combat

 General Annoyance wrote:

Pouncey wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:
Indeed there would be no recoil whatsoever on a Lance since no moving parts are needed to generate the beam, and lasers don't transfer any kinetic energy. However, the focusing elements and optics could indeed be affected by dust that would inhibit their ability to fire properly or at all.

So it's primarily an issue of weatherproofing the weapon then?

Also I guess you probably wouldn't want to use it in the rain due to refraction.

Selym wrote:Let's nor forget refraction in the atmosphere, disturbances from the magnetic field, and particles of air that the laser would burn through. All would have an effect.

Come to think of those, I think Lance Weapons were most certainly designed for deep space combat

Space isn't completely empty though. Just mostly empty.

Though given that there's a lot of empty space in and around each atom with the particles being relatively small, even a planet is mostly open space. Hell, even a human being is actually empty space for the most part.

 Pouncey wrote:


Space isn't completely empty though. Just mostly empty.

Though given that there's a lot of empty space in and around each atom with the particles being relatively small, even a planet is mostly open space. Hell, even a human being is actually empty space for the most part.

Given that space is a vacuum, it should allow for the beam to travel unhindered.

Even then, surely a beam of this magnitude would not be affected in the same way as smaller beams by things like refraction/reflection? Considering how hot the beam is, many thousands of degrees so, surely any vapour it comes into contact with will just evaporate instantly, meaning the beam won't refract.

Topic, anyone?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Topic, anyone?

Oh yeah, something about GW madness?

I think we've pretty much agreed/accepted that this is the way 7th edition is, and are praying that 8th will do something major to change such weird and balance-unfriendly rules. Thought I may as well learn a bit more about big frickin' lazors

 Azreal13 wrote:
Topic, anyone?

Word of OP says it's relevant

 Pouncey wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And Lance batteries aren't 100 km snipers. They are 40,000 km WMD's.

At 100km ranges for snipers, I think the curve of the planet would make it so you're normally shooting through the planet and the enemy gets hit by a shot that comes out from the ground, even if you are using a laser weapon.

Side note, laser weapons would be good for snipers IRL if we can get a man-portable one to be lethal, due to the total lack of recoil due to lasers having no mass due to being made of light.

They would have recoil. Photons still have momentum.

And such a weapon would be highly susceptible to environmental issues such as dust or humidity.

What?

How can a photon have momentum if it has no mass?

Relativity. The total energy of a particle is defined as E^2 = (mc^2)^2 + (p^2)(c^2) where m is the rest mass, p is momentum, E is energy and c is the speed of light. From there you have m=0, so p = E/c. Energy of a photon is h*f (where h is planck's constant and f is frequency) which when subbed in gives us p = hf/c.

This small momentum of photons is what allows solar sails to work.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


Space isn't completely empty though. Just mostly empty.

Though given that there's a lot of empty space in and around each atom with the particles being relatively small, even a planet is mostly open space. Hell, even a human being is actually empty space for the most part.

Given that space is a vacuum, it should allow for the beam to travel unhindered.

Even then, surely a beam of this magnitude would not be affected in the same way as smaller beams by things like refraction/reflection? Considering how hot the beam is, many thousands of degrees so, surely any vapour it comes into contact with will just evaporate instantly, meaning the beam won't refract.

True.

Plus laser weapons wouldn't be good for most troops. Kinetic energy weapons are WAY more powerful for the energy spent, and the likely effect of firing off tons of manslaying laser beams is that the firers are going to be engulfed in heat, as the weapons would heat up along with the targets. Because of physics or something, I dunno, I watched some video about why Fallout's laser weapons are scientifically absurd. They also looked into the series' mininukes and discovered that it is theoretically possible to create nuclear weapons that small, though the radiation given off by each detonation would kill everyone within 200 feet of the detonation within minutes so they'd be a terrible idea.

Dont roll on that table then???

Am I missing something?
I agree its a BS table and a step backward/same for most of the dross WL tables but.......8th ed is around the corner right?

GW needs to abolish the WL trait table or let us pick them.
Tyranid "eats forest one" ahahahahaha

No.

Cmon GW.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Indeed there would be no recoil whatsoever on a Lance since no moving parts are needed to generate the beam, and lasers don't transfer any kinetic energy. However, the focusing elements and optics could indeed be affected by dust that would inhibit their ability to fire properly or at all.

Photons do transfer kinetic energy. That is the only energy they have. If photons didn't carry and transfer energy then the Earth would be very cold right now

Make traits like AoS where we can pick the stupid things.

Would still be imbalanced, but at least it would be predictable imbalance, which is waaay better.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And Lance batteries aren't 100 km snipers. They are 40,000 km WMD's.

At 100km ranges for snipers, I think the curve of the planet would make it so you're normally shooting through the planet and the enemy gets hit by a shot that comes out from the ground, even if you are using a laser weapon.

Side note, laser weapons would be good for snipers IRL if we can get a man-portable one to be lethal, due to the total lack of recoil due to lasers having no mass due to being made of light.

They would have recoil. Photons still have momentum.

And such a weapon would be highly susceptible to environmental issues such as dust or humidity.

What?

How can a photon have momentum if it has no mass?

Relativity. The total energy of a particle is defined as E^2 = (mc^2)^2 + (p^2)(c^2) where m is the rest mass, p is momentum, E is energy and c is the speed of light. From there you have m=0, so p = E/c. Energy of a photon is h*f (where h is planck's constant and f is frequency) which when subbed in gives us p = hf/c.

This small momentum of photons is what allows solar sails to work.

Okies, that was way too sciency for me to even attempt to counter.

Would the recoil given off by a man-killing laser weapon be enough to be relevant to a human soldier?

It would have to be an absolute fethton of energy in one beam.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:
Indeed there would be no recoil whatsoever on a Lance since no moving parts are needed to generate the beam, and lasers don't transfer any kinetic energy. However, the focusing elements and optics could indeed be affected by dust that would inhibit their ability to fire properly or at all.

Photons do transfer kinetic energy. That is the only energy they have. If photons didn't carry and transfer energy then the Earth would be very cold right now

I thought photons gave off heat energy, not kinetic energy.

Pouncey wrote:
I watched some video about why Fallout's laser weapons are scientifically absurd.

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Photons do transfer kinetic energy. That is the only energy they have. If photons didn't carry and transfer energy then the Earth would be very cold right now

You were watching ShoddyCast's Science series behind various things in video games and movies, which I recommend you watch Malus (I can't link it cos of all the swears). Those weapons made, quote: "no sense" because such a weapon has no moving parts present. However, they [Bethesda] were correct in that objects in the game world don't move about when you shoot them, since they only transfer their heat energy to the target. Plasma weapons can create a small amount of recoil since the plasma bolt has an amount of mass, but light has no mass, so cannot confer any kinetic energy, either behind the firing chamber or at the target.

 Pouncey wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:
Indeed there would be no recoil whatsoever on a Lance since no moving parts are needed to generate the beam, and lasers don't transfer any kinetic energy. However, the focusing elements and optics could indeed be affected by dust that would inhibit their ability to fire properly or at all.

Photons do transfer kinetic energy. That is the only energy they have. If photons didn't carry and transfer energy then the Earth would be very cold right now

I thought photons gave off heat energy, not kinetic energy.

Not quite. Heat energy is a measure of the transfer of energy from one system to another. This transfer is due to collisions and other interactions between moving particles (or the emission and absorption of photons) and so is a transfer of kinetic energy.

So the heat transfer from the sun to the earth is due to the sun emitting photons with kinetic energy, which then collide with the earth and impart some/all of that energy to the atoms making up the earth which gives them more energy, so they move slightly faster which we perceive as a rise in temperature.

On topic as to the chart. Unfortunately I don't think we'll see any drop in the random aspects until 8th, if then.

Every time you drag real physics into a setting with flying cathedral spaceships dropping beams of all-destroying light onto the battlefield, the Emperor kills a catgirl.

Please, think of the catgirls.

 Elemental wrote:
Every time you drag real physics into a setting with flying cathedral spaceships dropping beams of all-destroying light onto the battlefield, the Emperor kills a catgirl.

Please, think of the catgirls.

Right, I guess 40k is more science fantasy than science fiction...

Anyways... Even in a game without much randomness regarding spell/ability choices, you don't have to make everything equally powerful. You can have some spells/abilities being more powerful than others, but they have to come with stronger drawbacks to offset the benefits. You could make it so that the more powerful stuff requires you to pay extra points to select, maybe with the weaker stuff being free, or you could make it riskier to use. Maybe increase the odds of a Perils of the Warp using the standard Perils mechanism with a modifier that makes it easier to Perils, or increases the severity of a Perils if it does happen. Maybe make it so you can use the weaker stuff in every Psychic phase, but the more powerful stuff can only be used a limited number of times per game.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Random tables aren't killing 40k. An overpowered shooting phase, GW's inability to correctly point cost units, and high volume grav being great against almost everything (especially immobilizing vehicles) is what's killing 40k.

I love how you point to "high volume grav being great against almost everything(especially immobilizing vehicles)" while ignoring that while yeah grav is a big deal, vehicles are trash this edition and grav is only available on certain platforms in its most effective iteration(Grav Cannons with Amps).

What is most perplexing is that the base Grav cannon does not exist anywhere without a simultaneous grav amp. Only the Heavy Grav cannon does, in a different codex.

And im going to be the one laughing when i kill the Watch Captain/Master With Krazypants' Orbital Bombardment

Seriously, stop crying, Krazypants gets a choice of 3 Orbital Bombardments (S6 AP4 Ordnance D3, Large Blast/S10 AP1 Blast, Lance/S6 AP4 Ordnance 1, Psy-Shock, Large Blast) and they ALL have Infinite Range, Orbital AND Infinite Shots

The only way i can see the Deathwatch one being more powerful is because it isnt a Blast and uses the Firers BS

Seriously, Its time to stop
(Question Regarding something someone posted earlier in the thread: Didnt someone Write a Fan-Fic where Boreale survived the events of Soulstorm and Joined the Deathwatch?)

There's a surprising number of Boreale fanfics where he survives and becomes apart of X

commander dante wrote:
And im going to be the one laughing when i kill the Watch Captain/Master With Krazypants' Orbital Bombardment

Seriously, stop crying, Krazypants gets a choice of 3 Orbital Bombardments (S6 AP4 Ordnance D3, Large Blast/S10 AP1 Blast, Lance/S6 AP4 Ordnance 1, Psy-Shock, Large Blast) and they ALL have Infinite Range, Orbital AND Infinite Shots

The only way i can see the Deathwatch one being more powerful is because it isnt a Blast and uses the Firers BS

Seriously, Its time to stop
(Question Regarding something someone posted earlier in the thread: Didnt someone Write a Fan-Fic where Boreale survived the events of Soulstorm and Joined the Deathwatch?)

His name isn't literally "Krazypants" is it? Like, that's just a funny nickname someone made up to make him seem ridiculous, right?

There's a surprising number of Boreale fanfics where he survives and becomes apart of X

I also read an enjoyable Metroid fanfic where Samus Aran survives and X becomes a part of her.

We're probably thinking of different Xes though.

And... probably different genres of fanfiction altogether.

His name isn't literally "Krazypants" is it? Like, that's just a funny nickname someone made up to make him seem ridiculous, right?

Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov, typically spelled Krazypants because his name is often difficult to spell, and being a good example of a 'Puritan' inquisitor whose most famous quote is "There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court, a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."

He rides the giant white throne/dreadnought looking thing.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

His name isn't literally "Krazypants" is it? Like, that's just a funny nickname someone made up to make him seem ridiculous, right?

Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov, typically spelled Krazypants because his name is often difficult to spell, and being a good example of a 'Puritan' inquisitor whose most famous quote is "There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court, a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."

He rides the giant white throne/dreadnought looking thing.

Yes, I remember him.

He was funny on the "If the Emperor had a Text-to-Speech Device" series on YouTube.

Kind of a loon.