My store only sees about 10 armies played regularly (6 of which are chaos) so I'm curious what are some of the strongest units in the game are. From my own experience I've found the following to be really effective:
I suppose you included units of medium strength (bloodletters, spider riders) because of their ability to do mortal wounds on a 6 hit roll. Retributors then? They have better save, wounds and combat stats then the latter two (albeit with lower movement).
I had considered doing the units as stand alone, perhaps I should have gone this route, but I was referring to how those with common hero abilities for their respective factions can put out devastating amount of damage. Take the spider riders for instance doing 2 mortal wounds on a to hit roll of 5 or 6
Yep they are. And my data model shows that they are also the top of the damage stack for units which reflected my unfortunate experience with them lol.
auticus wrote: Yep they are. And my data model shows that they are also the top of the damage stack for units which reflected my unfortunate experience with them lol.
Yeah, first battle against them was a multi battle. I'd killed Archaon and the Order armies were really pounding the Chaos ones. They almost swung the battle in one charge. They killed:
1 Stardrake
5 Kurnoth Hunters with scythe
2 K Hunters with sword
Durthu
20 Dryads
We only brought them down through massed shooting and charging them with Paladins. I think he had 2-3 stonehorn, 2 of those beast riders and one mammoth. Still had the mammoth and riders left if I remember right.
I'm still a big fan of the Knight Venetor and his Star fated arrow along with Bow Judicators.
I think I have a faulty one of those. His star-eagle always dishes out more damage than him, and that Star-fated Arrow never, ever hits and wounds. Never.
Playing my Tomb Kings so far I see "Necropolis Knights" being very powerful.
I have had several people concede the game because too much of their army died eliminating a 3 man unit of Necropolis Knights to avoid me tabling them with what I had left.
"Tomb Guard" and "Skeleton Warriors" can be very powerful if you buff them in a Tomb Kings army.
Ushabti, Sepulchral Stalkers, Skeleton Chariots, and Tomb Scorpions look potentially powerful but I have not tried them yet.
Hell cannon...
multipul shots
improved to hits vs certain targets/movement
no line of sight needed
d6 mortal wounds per hit
also good up close in combat as well
In comparison, grudge throwers are meh. They do on average 4.75 damage after saves. There are other missile units in the game that can do better. The indirect fire option redeems it a bit. Vs the unit its grudged against its marginally better. While functional I wouldn't call it one of the top units.
Hellcannons are ok. Definitely worth having but not one of the best units in the game. Its doing on average 7.01 damage.
Its really good, however, for sniping normal 5/6 wound heroes.
Dreadquake Mortar with a Daemonsmith nearby, with the +1 to hit Command Trait. One shot at 40" range, no LoS needed, that hits on 2+ (3+ normal) and if in the Battalion rerolls of 1s. Wounds on a 3+, and if a Banner is planted rerolls of 1s against Order. -2 Rend at d6 (2d6 if unit is 10+) and if any models are slain that unit cannot run next turn.
Plus with the Daemonsmith you have a 50% chance to get to fire it again and take a mortal wound. Also it doesn't get worse the more wounds it takes and has 8 of them. Oh yea and a 3+ save vs. shooting attacks!
auticus wrote: In comparison, grudge throwers are meh. They do on average 4.75 damage after saves. There are other missile units in the game that can do better. The indirect fire option redeems it a bit. Vs the unit its grudged against its marginally better. While functional I wouldn't call it one of the top units.
Hellcannons are ok. Definitely worth having but not one of the best units in the game. Its doing on average 7.01 damage.
Its really good, however, for sniping normal 5/6 wound heroes.
While I agree with the ultimate sentiment, raw damage isn't everything even on a straightforward model. The hellcannon does that damage in the form of mortal wounds, at a huge range, ignoring line of sight, and can still fight in melee better than most warmachine hunting units. It's balancing factor is the price tag, not the number of wounds.
After some thought, and taking into account the context of army/allegiance, I'd have to go with a Huskard on Thundertusk. Ranged mortal wounds, solid melee, durable, heals, and very underpriced for doing all of that.
auticus wrote: I've watched a unit of six chariots soak up 18 chariots worth of wounds because of the banner that lets them keep coming back.
Very cost effective.
I almost always run 2 units of 6 chariots at 2000pts, and if you add in a mounted Tomb Herald, each unit is getting two full chariots back a turn. Its one of the grossest things I've seen in AoS. The tarpit to end all tarpits, and murderous on the charge with buffs.
auticus wrote: I've watched a unit of six chariots soak up 18 chariots worth of wounds because of the banner that lets them keep coming back.
Very cost effective.
I almost always run 2 units of 6 chariots at 2000pts, and if you add in a mounted Tomb Herald, each unit is getting two full chariots back a turn. Its one of the grossest things I've seen in AoS. The tarpit to end all tarpits, and murderous on the charge with buffs.
That works with Necropolis Knights as well except the spell from their warscroll REANIMATE NECROPOLIS KNIGHT "add(s) one model to the unit" so you can get three of them back a turn.
auticus wrote: I've watched a unit of six chariots soak up 18 chariots worth of wounds because of the banner that lets them keep coming back.
Very cost effective.
I almost always run 2 units of 6 chariots at 2000pts, and if you add in a mounted Tomb Herald, each unit is getting two full chariots back a turn. Its one of the grossest things I've seen in AoS. The tarpit to end all tarpits, and murderous on the charge with buffs.
That works with Necropolis Knights as well except the spell from their warscroll REANIMATE NECROPOLIS KNIGHT "add(s) one model to the unit" so you can get three of them back a turn.
True, but a critical difference is that, on the charge they do mathematically identical damage, but Chariots fulfill all your battle-line requirements (if you want), meaning saved points on a Skeleton Warrior tax. Also, Necropolis Knights pull ahead when a Liche Priest is present, but they're equal without one, making the Priest a further (albeit useful) tax.
Doing it with Chariots means plenty of points left for further gross things like a Necrosphinx. ;-)
Bonachinonin wrote: I feel Seraphon have a pretty strong base. Saurus guard with a star priest nearby are a serious head ache.
With the Pitched-Battles casting nerfs, Saurus Guard have become even stronger, and IMO are one of the best battle-line options in the game. Seraphon work well self-contained anyway so having Seraphon Allegiance is almost a given. Saurus Guard are one of the few things left with such easy access to a 2+ rerollable save (ignoring Rend -1 no less), and their formation with the Eternity Warden is dirt cheap while adding a lot of value as well.
I would say Seraphon are definitely one of the stronger armies currently in the game, insofar that they can built quite a few very good styles of list, but they don't quite reach the top-top tier of popularity for competitive play because they don't have as many fire-and-forget, idiot-proof units. Its an army that benefits a LOT from positioning and synergy.
If the casting rules hadn't impacted Kroak so harshly, I think their mortal-wound-factory list would've stayed a top-top level army for a while too.
Am I missing something? I don't see the TK listed on there. Thanks a ton for this site though, it's very cool for those of us who are mathhammer aficionados!
If you're talking about my site I did not add TK because no one I know other than myself plays them and as GW doesn't "officially support" them, a lot of people dumped them. I didn't bring in many legacy items, only the things that are in their currently "supported" line.
Yeah looking offhand the sphinx is probably A+, the chariots are an A and the knights are probably an A, with a good handful of items behind it a solid B.
That's the thing, I don't think TK have "cheese" per se, so much as their keywords, and Settra's ability to have every other hero use their command ability, just stacks too well. I won't go so far as to say they're broken, as you have to go 1000pts into Heroes just to maximize those stacking buffs, but they can definitely be a top-tier army both for damage out-put and survivability.
For context... Our meta has been crapping itself over Beastclaws, so I made the "best" TK list I could think of, which proceeded, in several games in a row, to remove two Thundertusks a turn, and then clean up left-overs, while sustaining NO long term damage, thanks to returning units.
When I trace the TK's "too good" status, and assets though, its almost always going to come back to Settra. He's no slouch in combat, miserable to remove from the table, has an obscenely strong command ability, lets everyone else around him use their command abilities, and then the insanity that is "Incantation of Desert Wind"... IE a 5:6 chance to let any Chariot/Necrosphinx/Necropolis Knight charge anything it wants, first turn.
Not at all. GW killed the line, for whatever reasons (be they sales, plans to rebook in the future, who knows), but if they squatted any army that was too good, 40k Eldar would've disappeared years ago. :-p
Like I said, it really is just Settra. If you pull him out, suddenly TK are an army I will bring to any casual event, and have fun with. The whole thing just pivots around him competitively.
Well as a guy who has an army based around Putrid Blightkings I'd say they're a very powerful unit, 3+ to hit and any roll of a 6 results in D6 hits rather than 1, then 3+ to wound can be horrible, great against infantry and monster and heroes, but anything with decent saves can really screw them over.
Fleshrott wrote: Well as a guy who has an army based around Putrid Blightkings I'd say they're a very powerful unit, 3+ to hit and any roll of a 6 results in D6 hits rather than 1, then 3+ to wound can be horrible, great against infantry and monster and heroes, but anything with decent saves can really screw them over.
Fleshrott wrote: Well as a guy who has an army based around Putrid Blightkings I'd say they're a very powerful unit, 3+ to hit and any roll of a 6 results in D6 hits rather than 1, then 3+ to wound can be horrible, great against infantry and monster and heroes, but anything with decent saves can really screw them over.
What's their rend like?
They have 0 rend, thus the 'decent saves' problem.
WarbossDakka wrote: I'm also surprised we haven't had the walking tank known as the Mourngul.
I think its because his popularity is over-blown. If someone fields one in an army that makes sense, you know they may very well just enjoy the model. (I own one, and will run it on RARE occasion). But the odds of seeing someone at a tournament with 2-3 of them on the table is unlikely outside of "That F'n Guy" scenarios. He's still a, relatively speaking, expensive model that only those who buy Forgeworld may even be aware of, so it isn't nearly the wide-spread plague of something like a Wraith-Knight in 40k whose cost-to-awesome ratio is just stupid, and readily available.
WarbossDakka wrote: I'm also surprised we haven't had the walking tank known as the Mourngul.
I think its because his popularity is over-blown. If someone fields one in an army that makes sense, you know they may very well just enjoy the model. (I own one, and will run it on RARE occasion). But the odds of seeing someone at a tournament with 2-3 of them on the table is unlikely outside of "That F'n Guy" scenarios. He's still a, relatively speaking, expensive model that only those who buy Forgeworld may even be aware of, so it isn't nearly the wide-spread plague of something like a Wraith-Knight in 40k whose cost-to-awesome ratio is just stupid, and readily available.
Played a 3,320 pt games Fyreslayers vs. Death on Saturday and I was nervous about the Mournghoul. He had two more he could summon but asked if it was too much to even bring a Mournghoul at all (something I appreciated). I might have been too worried about it, throwing 25 vulkites at it on turn 2 to tie it up. I was nasty but the "ward" save on the vulkites allowed me to tie up some of his nasties and then fed it sacrificial models the rest of the game. We did the narrative scenario War of Storms so kill points weren't a thing. They are tough, not sure if I'd say strongest but potentially for someone with no extra saving power. But now I know how to be ready next time.
WarbossDakka wrote: I'm also surprised we haven't had the walking tank known as the Mourngul.
I think its because his popularity is over-blown. If someone fields one in an army that makes sense, you know they may very well just enjoy the model. (I own one, and will run it on RARE occasion). But the odds of seeing someone at a tournament with 2-3 of them on the table is unlikely outside of "That F'n Guy" scenarios. He's still a, relatively speaking, expensive model that only those who buy Forgeworld may even be aware of, so it isn't nearly the wide-spread plague of something like a Wraith-Knight in 40k whose cost-to-awesome ratio is just stupid, and readily available.
I spent $30 on Reaper models to use as counts-as, and am running three in an upcoming tournament. Would never use them in a regular game though.
Tiger9gamer wrote: would anyone say the zombie dragon is overpriced? it's listed as A+ but every game I play with it it dies so horribly
Which variety? Zombie Dragon alone, Zombie Dragon with Vampire, or Zombie Dragon with Ghoul King? At any rate if you have trouble with it dying try having it come in on a flank after your main troop blocks have engaged.
Stormfiends are good, but a large part of that is their ability to be battleline.
Not that the Tomb Kings really need another biggest gribbly, but the Mourngul seems like it would be absurd in that army. TK don't have an overall allegiance beyond death, so you don't really lose much from fielding one (other than your ability to find opponents...). Settra's command gives all Death units +1 to hit, which is a tremendous boon to the Mourngul, and it can't be diverted as easily by a sacrificial unit like the Necrosphinx can.
A healthy Mourngul puts out something like 10-11 unsaved wounds per round against a 4+ save target when affected by Settra's ability.
Add in Screaming Skull Catapults to Morale Bomb nearby targets and ensure most enemies suffer -2 to hit and you've really got yourself a stew going.
Not th strongest but a unit of ripperdactyls can be destructive, in theory, and I stress in theory, 3 attacks at 3+ to hit and wound, re-rolls on both and another attack if you hit until you have no more attacks. I demolished a unit of chaos warriors.
999drako wrote: Not th strongest but a unit of ripperdactyls can be destructive, in theory, and I stress in theory, 3 attacks at 3+ to hit and wound, re-rolls on both and another attack if you hit until you have no more attacks. I demolished a unit of chaos warriors.
According to the warscroll that I am looking at Ripperdactyls only get to add new attacks on hits from Beak attacks, which is only 1 attack per model at a 4+ to hit.
999drako wrote: Not th strongest but a unit of ripperdactyls can be destructive, in theory, and I stress in theory, 3 attacks at 3+ to hit and wound, re-rolls on both and another attack if you hit until you have no more attacks. I demolished a unit of chaos warriors.
According to the warscroll that I am looking at Ripperdactyls only get to add new attacks on hits from Beak attacks, which is only 1 attack per model at a 4+ to hit.
They get toad rage and make 3 attacks each. However, the extra attacks themselves do not generate extra attacks in Matched Play due to a rule of one, drako was probably playing narrative.
999drako wrote: Not th strongest but a unit of ripperdactyls can be destructive, in theory, and I stress in theory, 3 attacks at 3+ to hit and wound, re-rolls on both and another attack if you hit until you have no more attacks. I demolished a unit of chaos warriors.
According to the warscroll that I am looking at Ripperdactyls only get to add new attacks on hits from Beak attacks, which is only 1 attack per model at a 4+ to hit.
They get toad rage and make 3 attacks each. However, the extra attacks themselves do not generate extra attacks in Matched Play due to a rule of one, drako was probably playing narrative.
Ahh I see, OK. Didn't realize we were assuming Toad Rage. God, Toad Rage is an awesome name for a rule.
Tiger9gamer wrote: would anyone say the zombie dragon is overpriced? it's listed as A+ but every game I play with it it dies so horribly
Which variety? Zombie Dragon alone, Zombie Dragon with Vampire, or Zombie Dragon with Ghoul King? At any rate if you have trouble with it dying try having it come in on a flank after your main troop blocks have engaged.
Stormfiends are good, but a large part of that is their ability to be battleline.
Tiger9gamer wrote: would anyone say the zombie dragon is overpriced? it's listed as A+ but every game I play with it it dies so horribly
Which variety? Zombie Dragon alone, Zombie Dragon with Vampire, or Zombie Dragon with Ghoul King? At any rate if you have trouble with it dying try having it come in on a flank after your main troop blocks have engaged.
Stormfiends are good, but a large part of that is their ability to be battleline.
Whoops, I ment Vamp lord on zombie Dragon
Are you using the shield and goblet of blood? Those are powerful upgrades that come free in Matched Play so we're presumably factored into the rating.
WarbossDakka wrote: I'm also surprised we haven't had the walking tank known as the Mourngul.
I think its because his popularity is over-blown. If someone fields one in an army that makes sense, you know they may very well just enjoy the model. (I own one, and will run it on RARE occasion). But the odds of seeing someone at a tournament with 2-3 of them on the table is unlikely outside of "That F'n Guy" scenarios. He's still a, relatively speaking, expensive model that only those who buy Forgeworld may even be aware of, so it isn't nearly the wide-spread plague of something like a Wraith-Knight in 40k whose cost-to-awesome ratio is just stupid, and readily available.
I spent $30 on Reaper models to use as counts-as, and am running three in an upcoming tournament. Would never use them in a regular game though.
To be fair... that might work locally, but in our competitive community, proxy-models aren't allowed in tournaments. Its all good for casual play, but one of the ways out community has stayed competitive without attracting those-guy types is by making it cost prohibitive for them. If those three Mourngul were costing you $90 a piece, shipped, you probably wouldn't be running three, while not outright penalizing someone who bought one because they loved it.
Obviously thats just around these parts and a dynamic we've worked out as a whole local community. To be fair, the dude who tried buying wins by starting Beastclaw right before a tournament and showing up with four Thundertusks was just dealt with by us all list tailoring to take him down. The minute someone like that loses every match at a tournament after spending $400 on it... they tend to stop trying to pay-2-win. :-p
I think the point stands that the concerns with overpowered models are valid even if those models are expensive. And tbf if the 4-thundertusk guy promted the rest of you to tailor lists then I'd say there's an issue regardless of who won, a model is pretty OP of it got the whole tournament tailoring against it! (And besides if he had that much of a problem then he wasn't doing it right, which thundertusks was he running?)
I think both Thundertusks and Mournguls are pretty powerful, though as for strongest unit in the game I'm not sure. It's hard to beat Settra IMO because of the synergy value. Going back to Stormfiends, it occurs that they are insanely good when used in the Skryre cheese list, they might take top spot in that specific context.
[Edit] Just to caveat my statements, I do not support broken list building, spamming OP models, etc outside of tournaments! For me a tournament changes the dynamic since the primary goal becomes winning (over just having fun) and if a tournament doesn't want OP stuff taking over they are free to add some sort of comp which negates the advantage.
Found the "joys" of the ogre butcher with cauldreon his great maw spell is an absolute killer d6 mortals repeating on a 4+ just munches a unit at a time and dosent get stopped by the rule of one either. And the random buffs from the cauldreon are good as well. Sure not the most defencive of models but a good offencive output.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think the point stands that the concerns with overpowered models are valid even if those models are expensive. And tbf if the 4-thundertusk guy promted the rest of you to tailor lists then I'd say there's an issue regardless of who won, a model is pretty OP of it got the whole tournament tailoring against it! (And besides if he had that much of a problem then he wasn't doing it right, which thundertusks was he running?)
I think both Thundertusks and Mournguls are pretty powerful, though as for strongest unit in the game I'm not sure. It's hard to beat Settra IMO because of the synergy value. Going back to Stormfiends, it occurs that they are insanely good when used in the Skryre cheese list, they might take top spot in that specific context.
[Edit] Just to caveat my statements, I do not support broken list building, spamming OP models, etc outside of tournaments! For me a tournament changes the dynamic since the primary goal becomes winning (over just having fun) and if a tournament doesn't want OP stuff taking over they are free to add some sort of comp which negates the advantage.
How have people been dealing with the beastclaws? I've only seen them in bat reps so haven't seen much
Beastclaws are a misnomyr. The army is actually Thundertusks and friends. :-p The vast majority of the army is actually not very scary at all with Tusks/Stonehorns doing the vast majority of the heavy lifting. As such, every loss of those hurts them badly.
Any army that can out-move them, and do massed concentrated damage should focus on removing one per turn.
In my cast, TK's thanks to ultra speedsters like Necrosphinx, or Necropolis Knights/Chariots bolstered with Incantation of Desert Wind from Settra, have multiple ways to charge from outside Thundertusk mortal-wound range, to directly in and charging. A Nectrotect buffing Necrosphinx, and Wind on said Chariots/Knights mean you will have at least two VERY hard hitting monsters in on a Tusk at will.
From there, you can also out-grind them. Chariots with a Herald on the table are getting ten wounds of Chariots back per turn, for free.
Skullhammer wrote: Found the "joys" of the ogre butcher with cauldreon his great maw spell is an absolute killer d6 mortals repeating on a 4+ just munches a unit at a time and dosent get stopped by the rule of one either. And the random buffs from the cauldreon are good as well. Sure not the most defencive of models but a good offencive output.
I suspect strongly that if you asked GW to clarify that it would be stopped by the Rules of One. I understand the intent to be 'no infinite damage loops'. If bonus attacks don't generate additional bonus attacks, I'd guess they don't want bonus spell damage generating additional bonus spell damage. Per the rules though, it does work.
Skullhammer wrote: Found the "joys" of the ogre butcher with cauldreon his great maw spell is an absolute killer d6 mortals repeating on a 4+ just munches a unit at a time and dosent get stopped by the rule of one either. And the random buffs from the cauldreon are good as well. Sure not the most defencive of models but a good offencive output.
I suspect strongly that if you asked GW to clarify that it would be stopped by the Rules of One. I understand the intent to be 'no infinite damage loops'. If bonus attacks don't generate additional bonus attacks, I'd guess they don't want bonus spell damage generating additional bonus spell damage. Per the rules though, it does work.
The way the rule is written it continues on a 4+ so the rule of 1 wouldn't apply because its not damage creating more damage. No matter what you roll on the d6 the 4+ remains the same
Skullhammer wrote: Found the "joys" of the ogre butcher with cauldreon his great maw spell is an absolute killer d6 mortals repeating on a 4+ just munches a unit at a time and dosent get stopped by the rule of one either. And the random buffs from the cauldreon are good as well. Sure not the most defencive of models but a good offencive output.
I suspect strongly that if you asked GW to clarify that it would be stopped by the Rules of One. I understand the intent to be 'no infinite damage loops'. If bonus attacks don't generate additional bonus attacks, I'd guess they don't want bonus spell damage generating additional bonus spell damage. Per the rules though, it does work.
The way the rule is written it continues on a 4+ so the rule of 1 wouldn't apply because its not damage creating more damage. No matter what you roll on the d6 the 4+ remains the same
Isn't the Foot of Gork the same, additional hits triggering on a 4+? I thought they ruled that spell as only triggering once (I don't have the FAQ handy, and could be thinking of a discussion on the spell)
Tiger9gamer wrote: would anyone say the zombie dragon is overpriced? it's listed as A+ but every game I play with it it dies so horribly
Which variety? Zombie Dragon alone, Zombie Dragon with Vampire, or Zombie Dragon with Ghoul King? At any rate if you have trouble with it dying try having it come in on a flank after your main troop blocks have engaged.
Stormfiends are good, but a large part of that is their ability to be battleline.
Whoops, I ment Vamp lord on zombie Dragon
Are you using the shield and goblet of blood? Those are powerful upgrades that come free in Matched Play so we're presumably factored into the rating.
of course! but even with mystic shield not much can protect against skarbrand's "eight wounds because I say so" attack.
Well if you are comparing against Scarbrand almost anything will come up short... he's pretty far under what he should be. Is the vampire your general? Because that model begs to have its command ability put on itself since so many attacks hit on 4+. Couple this with Red Fury and you have a very powerful damage dealer, toss in the item which gives hit penalties to non-death to make it even better. Also, I have seen a ton of big monsters die ineffectively because the found themselves in a central point on the battlefield, getting crap thrown at them from every direction. Better to start your expensive monsters on one side and roll them through the battle from there.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Well if you are comparing against Scarbrand almost anything will come up short... he's pretty far under what he should be. Is the vampire your general? Because that model begs to have its command ability put on itself since so many attacks hit on 4+. Couple this with Red Fury and you have a very powerful damage dealer, toss in the item which gives hit penalties to non-death to make it even better. Also, I have seen a ton of big monsters die ineffectively because the found themselves in a central point on the battlefield, getting crap thrown at them from every direction. Better to start your expensive monsters on one side and roll them through the battle from there.
Is that not one of the issues with those lists that spam behemoths though? Where they just line up so many monsters that you're just hoping to kill one off a turn
Skullhammer wrote: Found the "joys" of the ogre butcher with cauldreon his great maw spell is an absolute killer d6 mortals repeating on a 4+ just munches a unit at a time and dosent get stopped by the rule of one either. And the random buffs from the cauldreon are good as well. Sure not the most defencive of models but a good offencive output.
I suspect strongly that if you asked GW to clarify that it would be stopped by the Rules of One. I understand the intent to be 'no infinite damage loops'. If bonus attacks don't generate additional bonus attacks, I'd guess they don't want bonus spell damage generating additional bonus spell damage. Per the rules though, it does work.
The way the rule is written it continues on a 4+ so the rule of 1 wouldn't apply because its not damage creating more damage. No matter what you roll on the d6 the 4+ remains the same
Isn't the Foot of Gork the same, additional hits triggering on a 4+? I thought they ruled that spell as only triggering once (I don't have the FAQ handy, and could be thinking of a discussion on the spell)
The foot of gork is the exact same spell. If that is faq'd to one trigger then I would say so is the maw. I had not seen that in the faq but if that was the case then I would agree that the maw would work similarly. As its written now it doesn't feel as if the rule of 1 is written for that.
Skullhammer wrote: Found the "joys" of the ogre butcher with cauldreon his great maw spell is an absolute killer d6 mortals repeating on a 4+ just munches a unit at a time and dosent get stopped by the rule of one either. And the random buffs from the cauldreon are good as well. Sure not the most defencive of models but a good offencive output.
I suspect strongly that if you asked GW to clarify that it would be stopped by the Rules of One. I understand the intent to be 'no infinite damage loops'. If bonus attacks don't generate additional bonus attacks, I'd guess they don't want bonus spell damage generating additional bonus spell damage. Per the rules though, it does work.
The way the rule is written it continues on a 4+ so the rule of 1 wouldn't apply because its not damage creating more damage. No matter what you roll on the d6 the 4+ remains the same
Isn't the Foot of Gork the same, additional hits triggering on a 4+? I thought they ruled that spell as only triggering once (I don't have the FAQ handy, and could be thinking of a discussion on the spell)
The foot of gork is the exact same spell. If that is faq'd to one trigger then I would say so is the maw. I had not seen that in the faq but if that was the case then I would agree that the maw would work similarly. As its written now it doesn't feel as if the rule of 1 is written for that.
I finally got around to pulling up the GHBFAQ, and there isn't anything that states the Foot of Gork (or anything like it) is subject to the rule of 1, and given the wording of the rule, I don't see any good evidence supporting either spell being impacted.
Spirit of Durthu as a general, with Gnarled Warror Command Trait (Ignore Rend -1) andArtefact: Brarsheath (-1 to hit all rolls for all attackers).
He defaults to a 3+ save, so if he's mystic shielded he's got a 2+ save, ignore rend -1.
With the Treelord Ancient's Command ability, if Durthu is within 10 inches of the Ancient or some Kurnoth Hunters, he rerolls 1's on save as well.
So that's a Spirit of Durthu, powerful ranged and melee attack.
-1 to hit for all enemies vs. him.
Stackable -1 to hit in melee vs. him (only on a 4+ ground shaking stomp roll).
2+ save, rerolling 1's (3+ without mystic shield).
Backup wizard to cast regrowth, healing him d6 wounds.
Spirit of Durthu as a general, with Gnarled Warror Command Trait (Ignore Rend -1) andArtefact: Brarsheath (-1 to hit all rolls for all attackers).
He defaults to a 3+ save, so if he's mystic shielded he's got a 2+ save, ignore rend -1.
With the Treelord Ancient's Command ability, if Durthu is within 10 inches of the Ancient or some Kurnoth Hunters, he rerolls 1's on save as well.
So that's a Spirit of Durthu, powerful ranged and melee attack.
-1 to hit for all enemies vs. him.
Stackable -1 to hit in melee vs. him (only on a 4+ ground shaking stomp roll).
2+ save, rerolling 1's (3+ without mystic shield).
Backup wizard to cast regrowth, healing him d6 wounds.
The treelord ancient can't use his command ability if the spirit of durthu is the general
Dracothian guard, any of the varieties have been giving my opponents fits at 1000 points. I usually table people with 5 total dracoths(Ful,Temp,Cel) and lose an average of 3 models per game. I played an apoc size game only having 1700 points of aos total and lost 1 model despite being in combat literally the whole game (A lord relictor that got sniped by tzeentch flamers).
We have a heavy duty WAAC player I left with a single model after losing a single model who told me that I had 'the biggest dick list in the store'. I just wanted to play wif mah kitteh dragons :(
On the subject of cheesy lists, i played a game of Rotbringers (with some skavies, i couldn't resist) versus my local store managers Undead. He brought three units of 30 Zombies, 3 Corpse Carts, a unit of dire wolves, a tomb banshee, four spirit hosts and a cairn wraith. I had two Rotbringer Sorcerers, a Lord of Plagues, plague monks, a plague priest, some Clan Rats and a pair of WLC s. I had seen his list taken down by a Khorne army, so i thought it woukd be an easy win.
I'm a little surprised that Morghasts haven't been mentioned (at least that I recall).
People were talking about the Necrosphinx up thread, and honestly Morghasts seem like they could be in the same league if not better.
Against a 4+ save:
Necrosphinx (full strength): 8.22 unsaved wounds per combat
2 Morghast Archai: 6.67 unsaved wounds per combat
2 Morghast Harbingers: 5.92 unsaved wounds per combat
Against a 5+ save:
Necrosphinx: 8.61 unsaved wounds per combat
2 Morghast Archai: 8 unsaved wounds per combat
2 Morghast Harbingers: 7.4 unsaved wounds per combat
Against a 6+ save or no save:
Necrosphinx: 9 unsaved wounds per combat
2 Morghast Archai: 8 unsaved wounds per combat
2 Morghast Harbingers: 8.89 unsaved wounds per combat
Defensively,
Necrosphinx has 57.8 effective wounds
2 Morghast Archai have 43.2 effective wounds
2 Morghast Harbingers have 28.8 effective wounds
Of course, a Necrosphinx is 400 points while 2 Morghasts are 240 points.
Thus, Necrosphinx is 48.66/46.46/44.44 points per wound on offense and 6.9 points per effective wound on defense.
Morghast Archai are 35.98/30/30 points per wound on offense and 5.56 points per effective wound on defense
Morghast Harbingers are 40.5/32.4/27 points per wound on offense and 8.33 points per effective wound on defense.
All of them share the reanimant keyword and have similar movement speed. The Necrosphinx is a bit faster when healthy and a bit slower when damaged. The Archai don't get any special charge rules, so they are definitely slower overall, probably with a threat radius of a couple inches shorter on average. The Harbingers on the other hand have a much superior charge rule and have a substantially larger threat radius than the Necrosphinx.
The Necrosphinx give access to a healing spell which is nice if you have casters in your army. That said, it also has the disadvantage of being forced to charge which makes it much easier to tarpit.
Archai also benefit from not being behemoths, so they are probably a little harder to get LoS to and can benefit from cover. They also don't take up a behemoth slot in your list.
Overall it seems like both Morghast units are more efficient than the Necrosphinx on offense, with the Archai also being more efficient on defense but slower and the Harbingers being less efficient on defense but faster.
Given how feared the Necrosphinx is, I'd say that Morghasts also belong in this conversation. Now, of course, I can't help but think about how to convert them to a TK theme....
Bullgors with great weapons have plowed through most things around here. With the bullgor stampede battalion and a nearby doombull they can do some massive damage. Especially if they get the +1 to hit for chaos allegiance. Hit on 4s wound on 2s with the doombull and gain 2 extra attacks for every 5 or more. This is with -2 rend and 3 damage. I have had them deal 21 damage to a spirit of durthu after saves with just 3 guys. Also once they get within 12" if your enemy bunched up you can garuntee the charge and deal mortal wounds on a 4+. Now this is with mostly 1000 point games due to space here. At 2000 I get twice as many of them and 2 more ghorgons. The warherds in general hit hard and due to high wound counts they have good survivability.
So, I feel the need to say this, but just on the virtues of their Keywords alone, TK Chariots are shockingly powerful platforms for buffs. There are just so many really really potent, stackable, ones they can receive... their footprint is immense and obnoxious to play around, and they so easily gain back models.
I felt horrible at a tournament yesterday, because I THOUGHT I was way toning down my TK by taking no Necrosphinx, and no Mourngul, and still, at will, I removed any unit I wanted, from across the table, as needed. I saw some killer lists too, but outside of one tabled my other opponents in two turns.
I know "power ranking" put them somewhere in the "meh" category, but they really do just have access to too many good bonuses. I fully expect them to gain 40pts in cost, in next year's GH.
Did the tournament have a comp/sportsmanship aspect? If not no need to feel bad because it's a tournament setting. If the organizers didn't want OP lists to show up there are plenty of options.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Did the tournament have a comp/sportsmanship aspect? If not no need to feel bad because it's a tournament setting. If the organizers didn't want OP lists to show up there are plenty of options.
I actually, repeatedly contacted the organizer in the weeks leading to the event, asking if it was going to be a "serious/competitive" tournament, or something for fun. I was told they had all been under the heel of a Thundertusk meta, and that other people were bringing their hardcore, Nova debuff stacking lists as well. After being told a few times that we should come with our best, I did so... but man, it never feels good to end up looking like "that guy". In this hobby i'm usually more concerned with my opponents and I having a fun time, so I do still feel badly if anyone didn't enjoy it.
There was some really clever stuff like the often theorized Grot-horde, loaded with Fanatics as anti-charge defense, and the often seen all-deep-striking Sigmarine army of doom. That said, it felt crummy when someone noticed by the end of the day that i'd lost two units spanning the entire tournament.
And there were some ruthless lists. Blight Kings stacked with debuffs had me in fear, when list building, as did the prospect of spammed Tusks.
My take away... I sincerely love AoS, and the General's Handbook is a godsend for helping the community just sky-rocket in number... but a lot of work, or some good comps are still due for the tournament scene to work itself out. I love the prospect of the new Handbook (as mentioned at Warhammer World), being rebalanced based on the community/tournament results, every single year. As it stands, just speaking to my own army... i'm expecting Settra to cost 100pts more, Chariots 40 more, Necro-Knights 40 more, Mourngul and Necrosphinx probably about 80 more.
The problem is that the community by and large will reject any comp that comes out unless its "official". So its kind of deal with the hand dealt situation.
auticus wrote: The problem is that the community by and large will reject any comp that comes out unless its "official". So its kind of deal with the hand dealt situation.
I don't believe that is true. The ITC for example is largely embraced across the entire 40k fandom. Why wouldn't something from a respected source not be able to gain traction in time? Now that Frontline gaming is going in HARD on Age of Sigmar, I wouldn't even be surprised if the ITC itself comps AoS in some small way.
There's already talk on the UK independent scene podcasts of an extra layer of comp being added. I imagine the decisive moment will be next year's SCGT and if they decide to run AoS vanilla or with a comp. I don't imagine they'll do much points adjustment (though they might), but they might add further restrictions.
Im of a mind that creating a significant sportsmanship aspect to tournament rankings would be a better route. As long as things are restriction based people will look for the best way to exploit it. But if wins only count for, say, two thirds of overall tournament performance and the rest is made up of sportsmanship scores it creates the situation where players no longer want to bring the best army possible. If someone really wants to go the route of just restricting things then use PPC, because the points layout of Matched Play will only ever produce decent balance rather than good (a lack of scaling point costs and separate upgrade points means certain things cannot be balanced properly).
I suspect that most will not want to go either route, which is entirely fine (I am a big supporter of playing AoS your way). But know that will come with the downside of exploitative lists. How much of that a tourney is willing to tolerate directly relates to how much comp there will need to be.
Bottle wrote: There's already talk on the UK independent scene podcasts of an extra layer of comp being added. I imagine the decisive moment will be next year's SCGT and if they decide to run AoS vanilla or with a comp. I don't imagine they'll do much points adjustment (though they might), but they might add further restrictions.
I say this from time to time, buuuuut I think it's important to remember that competitive WHFB 8E was virtually never played uncomped throughout its lifespan. Between regional restrictions, then ETC, then Swedish Comp catching at the end, we always added adjustments to the core rules, not necessarily because they were broken (I still think 8E was the best, despite its problems (read: spell lore imbalances)) but because they needed to be tweaked to accommodate more competitive gaming and its demands for increased balance.
Which is to say, I fully expect AOS tournaments to comp the game, and frankly really look forward to it.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So, I feel the need to say this, but just on the virtues of their Keywords alone, TK Chariots are shockingly powerful platforms for buffs. There are just so many really really potent, stackable, ones they can receive... their footprint is immense and obnoxious to play around, and they so easily gain back models.
I felt horrible at a tournament yesterday, because I THOUGHT I was way toning down my TK by taking no Necrosphinx, and no Mourngul, and still, at will, I removed any unit I wanted, from across the table, as needed. I saw some killer lists too, but outside of one tabled my other opponents in two turns.
I know "power ranking" put them somewhere in the "meh" category, but they really do just have access to too many good bonuses. I fully expect them to gain 40pts in cost, in next year's GH.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So, I feel the need to say this, but just on the virtues of their Keywords alone, TK Chariots are shockingly powerful platforms for buffs. There are just so many really really potent, stackable, ones they can receive... their footprint is immense and obnoxious to play around, and they so easily gain back models.
I felt horrible at a tournament yesterday, because I THOUGHT I was way toning down my TK by taking no Necrosphinx, and no Mourngul, and still, at will, I removed any unit I wanted, from across the table, as needed. I saw some killer lists too, but outside of one tabled my other opponents in two turns.
I know "power ranking" put them somewhere in the "meh" category, but they really do just have access to too many good bonuses. I fully expect them to gain 40pts in cost, in next year's GH.
Care to share your list? I'm definitely curious.
Leaders
Settra The Imperishable (360)
Tomb King (100)
- Dynastic Blade & Shield
Liche Priest w/mount(120)
Necrotect (100)
Royal Warsphinx (340)
- Venom Spike Tail
Units
Necropolis Knights x 6 (320)
Skeleton Chariots x 6 (280)
Skeleton Chariots x 6 (280)
Skeleton Warriors x 10 (80)
- Ancient Blades
Total: 1980/2000
In essence, Settra pops his Command Ability creating a bubble of +1 hit AND +1 wound, for almost every single model in the entire army within 18". He then lets the TK use his ability to give a chosen unit an additionally +1 to hit. Necrotect gives a unit +3" move and rerolling wounds of 1. Warsphinx debuffs a unit of your choice making your entire army wound it one easier. Incantation of Desert Wind the movement buffed unit, and you can essentially hit anything, anywhere as needed 5/6 times. If needed the Liche Priest also Righteous Smiting spells, making units roll additional attacks on a 6.
For instance... fully buffed, the Necro Knights attack the debuffed target. They roll 18 dice for the Venomous Bites. The Righteous Smiting and two hit buffs now mean you're hitting on 2's, and any 4+ on the dice generates a further attack. You're averaging 25 hits. You're rolling 2's to wound, re-rolling 1's, and every 4+ because of the Setta buff/Warsphinx debuff, does a mortal wound in addition to their damage profile. Its a rend -1 attack, and d3 damage per, so against a 3+ save unit, you're averaging 56 wounds already... and you've not even done the rider's attacks yet.... from virtually across the table.
And the army deploys soooooo wide, that its incredibly hard for your opponent to get behind your front-line, meaning sniping out heroes is their only hope, and really only Settra is "required" to make the list hum, and gets a 3+, and then 5+ and 6+ against any damage that does get through.
I also could've shuffled the list and found a way to get a Herald in there, returning ANOTHER Chariot and Necroknight to the list each turn... but honestly, I lost one unit of Chariots all day as is.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So, I feel the need to say this, but just on the virtues of their Keywords alone, TK Chariots are shockingly powerful platforms for buffs. There are just so many really really potent, stackable, ones they can receive... their footprint is immense and obnoxious to play around, and they so easily gain back models.
I felt horrible at a tournament yesterday, because I THOUGHT I was way toning down my TK by taking no Necrosphinx, and no Mourngul, and still, at will, I removed any unit I wanted, from across the table, as needed. I saw some killer lists too, but outside of one tabled my other opponents in two turns.
I know "power ranking" put them somewhere in the "meh" category, but they really do just have access to too many good bonuses. I fully expect them to gain 40pts in cost, in next year's GH.
Care to share your list? I'm definitely curious.
Leaders
Settra The Imperishable (360)
Tomb King (100)
- Dynastic Blade & Shield
Liche Priest w/mount(120)
Necrotect (100)
Royal Warsphinx (340)
- Venom Spike Tail
Units
Necropolis Knights x 6 (320)
Skeleton Chariots x 6 (280)
Skeleton Chariots x 6 (280)
Skeleton Warriors x 10 (80)
- Ancient Blades
Total: 1980/2000
In essence, Settra pops his Command Ability creating a bubble of +1 hit AND +1 wound, for almost every single model in the entire army within 18". He then lets the TK use his ability to give a chosen unit an additionally +1 to hit. Necrotect gives a unit +3" move and rerolling wounds of 1. Warsphinx debuffs a unit of your choice making your entire army wound it one easier. Incantation of Desert Wind the movement buffed unit, and you can essentially hit anything, anywhere as needed 5/6 times. If needed the Liche Priest also Righteous Smiting spells, making units roll additional attacks on a 6.
For instance... fully buffed, the Necro Knights attack the debuffed target. They roll 18 dice for the Venomous Bites. The Righteous Smiting and two hit buffs now mean you're hitting on 2's, and any 4+ on the dice generates a further attack. You're averaging 25 hits. You're rolling 2's to wound, re-rolling 1's, and every 4+ because of the Setta buff/Warsphinx debuff, does a mortal wound in addition to their damage profile. Its a rend -1 attack, and d3 damage per, so against a 3+ save unit, you're averaging 56 wounds already... and you've not even done the rider's attacks yet.... from virtually across the table.
And the army deploys soooooo wide, that its incredibly hard for your opponent to get behind your front-line, meaning sniping out heroes is their only hope, and really only Settra is "required" to make the list hum, and gets a 3+, and then 5+ and 6+ against any damage that does get through.
I also could've shuffled the list and found a way to get a Herald in there, returning ANOTHER Chariot and Necroknight to the list each turn... but honestly, I lost one unit of Chariots all day as is.
Thanks, I was mainly curious how deep you went on leaders and how you split up your units. Settra is such a beast. I'm really glad I was able to find a copy of him before he gets even harder to find.
One thing that I wonder is if it might be a good idea to split one of the units of chariots into two units of 3. My initial thinking around this is that it would allow you to completely screen Settra with the necropolis Knights in front, the six chariot unit in back and a chariot unit on each side. This will give you more protection against deepstrike shenanigans. While it does make it easier to lose a unit of chariots completely, it also means that if the opponent isn't able to completely focus fire one unit, you'll be able to bring back twice as many. It also might induce an opponent to try to focus down the 3 man units when in fact you do not care if they die.
Initially I thought about this change just for screening Settra, but it also allows you to ditch the 10 skeleton warriors in favor of a Herald, another Tomb King (thus allowing you to buff two of your units), or something tactical like a unit of Carrion.
I actually dislike them in units of three, and here's why... Chariots do almost all of their "work" outside of tarpitting, on the charge where they double their attack profile.
A focused opponent can make three chariots disappear, whereas a unit of six needs only one, its Icon Bearer, to survive, retreat, and start regrowing models, while your second unit of chariots charges in to replace them.
This keeps the unit alive, and viable, and when you're ready, gives you another chance to charge and maximize their value.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and those ten skeletons are surprisingly useful for bubble-wrapping the on-foot heroes, and otherwise are utterly ignored by opponents, meaning those are ten more models for possibly holding an objective.
That makes sense -- I just figured that it might be worth it to protect Settra, especially if you can still use the 6 man chariots and the Necroknights to do the whole 1-2 punch thing. Of course you have a lot more practical experience than I do, so I'll have to defer to you on that one.
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