Hi all,

I've been using a 7th ed Tyranid Codex I wrote for awhile now in my gaming group and we have a lot of fun with it. It was suggested that I post it here and (hopefully) get some feedback to improve it.

You can find it here: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_Xe1GB9HM88ZG5PM0xEcVJQU1U&usp=sharing

I focused on trying to make small changes across the board to promote synergy instead of just trying to buff specific units. Probably the biggest is that now Scything Talons strike at Initiative order when charging into terrain, meaning that more units are much better at fighting, but also that you need to make some strategic choices when choosing your load out (do you want your Carnifex to rip through Vehicles with its Crushing Claws, or to wade through Orks with Scything Talons).

Anyway I would really love some constructive criticism and feedback, thanks all!

- Jesse

I am going to give this a look over for sure. I am currently writing my own Tyranid fandex. The first note I would give you is to change shadow in the warp to effect units in synapse range.

It makes it so any powers or gear that increases synapse also increase shadow giving them much better utility and making them more worth their points.

A quick look over the unit entries, it seems that some things have been actively nerfed that really didn't need it (why are Lictors only 2 wounds each whilst still only being T4?) whilst there have been only minor improvements and a few very strange changes (Tervigons as troop choices only? The Red Terror as an HQ? Broodlords went up in cost? Trygon in Fast Attack? Fearless on all the MC's whilst still having Instinctive Behaviour, this one inparticular makes no sense).

Honestly I think it's still a bottomfeeder codex with these changes.

I like some of your concepts, namely Expendable special rule, Rupture Cannon chance of being strenght D and Tervigon breeding sac changes, along with slight increase in availability of AP3 weapons Tyranids really need and neat psychic disciplines. Some of changes are misfires though - some examples: the way how your modified Lash Whips lack initiative boost or totally unnecessary increase in efectiveness of Devourer weapons...

But overall it is a nice effort, not in the same direction we in our group "repair" Tyranids, but nice nevertheless.

Side note - the "small" version of your .pdf has some problems and repeats Bone Swords and Psychic Overload frames on almost every page making a lot of entries unreadable. "Tiny" version works fine though.

@Lance845: I did make all powers/biomorphs/upgrades that increase Synpase range also increase Shadow in the Warp but it occurs to me that if I have just written "A model's Shadow in the Warp range is always equal to it's Synapse Range" I could have saved myself a lot of writting haha. Thanks for the tip, I'll re-word it all for the next version! I hope to hear more feedback from you once you've had a chance to read it more in depth.

@Imateria: Lictors went down to 2 Wounds to bring them more in line with other multi-wound Tyranid creatures, and also because they got so many other buffs (and a points drop) they needed to lose something, haha. They now have Preferred Enemy (through Feeder Tendrils) in close combat and may single out individual characters in combat for annihilation (they excel at removing Powerfist Sergeants, Ork Pain Boyz and other support characters from the game now). This came at the expense of their 3rd Wound and Reserve bonus. The slot changes were mostly buffs I believe: Tervigons lost HQ status but no longer have a Termagant tax to be taken, Trygons are Elite now to more differentiate them from Trygon Primes (still in Heavy Support). I'm not sure why MC-wide Fearless contradicts having Instinctive Behaviour, Fearless lets you auto-pass Morale tests, not Leadership.

I think your quick look missed a lot of the benefits the Codex gained in special abilities (I tried to tweak abilities and wargear much more than buffing stats). Attacking with Scything Talons lets you strike at Initiative when charging into terrain (a huge buff for Hormagaunts, Raveners, Warriors and nearly all Monstrous Creatures), the Expendable rule allows Gants, Gaunts, Rippers and Gargoyles to serve as an effective 5++ for Synapse Creatures just be being within 6", and many of the models are faster now.

@nou: Thanks for the feedback! I am open to suggestion on Lash Whips - with the attack at Initiative when charging buff to Scything Talons I didn't feel like the +3i bonus made a lot of sense anymore (and it doesn't help with charging into terrain anyways in its current version in the real Dex). The 4th Ed Codex had it give a decent defensive buff (all models in base-to-base contact lose 1 Attack) and I wanted something along those lines and felt the can't hit on better than a 5+ was both better and more fluffy. But again, open to suggestions. Devourers didn't need a buff no, but I love the 4th Ed Codex and wanted to bring Living Ammunition back an it didn't make sense to leave it off Devourers. To compensate I made them cost 5pts for a Gant (making them more expensive than the Gant itself) and I was already increasing the price of the Brainleech Worms vcariant to 25pts (because no one thought those were under-costed haha) so the minor buff seemed fine. The only ones who get a straight free buff were Warriors with Devourers and warriors needed it.

Thanks for the heads up, I replaced the .pdf with a new version that should work better and had a few minor fixes (added Independent Character to the Broodlord because I'd missed it and I'd accidentally left Feeder Tendrils out of the armoury.

Or just write the rule "SiTW - any enemy model within the synapse range... etc etcc

^Not had that problem on the "small" version myself, though large blocks of the background do go white at times for me.

Having had more time to read through it I'll give a more detailed response.

Shadow in the Warp- A good change, makes it usable for more than just those occasions when your opponent perils. I think I would have kept the -3 to leadership though, or at least had it at -2 rather than -1.

Instinctive Behaviour- What do you mean by "takes X casualties"? Is this a pre set amount or based on a dice role? Either way I'd still hate IB, loosing controle of your army is never fun. Also, at no point have you explained why the unit entries have Instinctive Behaviour listed as Feed (D6) or Feed (D3), this is confusing as I have no idea what it is your trying to have me do with this.

Warlord Traits- I like them, they all seem useful at least to some degree and a vast improvement on the dead duck of a list we currently have.

Adaptive Instincts- basically re-roll to see how badly your screwed. Should be a re-roll on the leadership test instead, for an army with a huge number of models with Ld 7 or worse and guaranteed to loose control of the army if we fail is far too punishing with nothing to mitigate against it.

Hive Tyrant- I like the increase in base Attacks and the drop in points, though not sure why wings have gone up from 35 to 40pts? Not many changes here but probably the only unit that didn't need any.

Warrior Prime- I like the price drop a lot, and the option to take Wings and make him Jump Infantry and to join with Shrikes is very cool, though is at least double it's worth at 20pts. At no point do you explain what a Ravenor Body is, I'm sure the intent here is to make it like a Ravenor but if you don't explain it how is anybody supposed to know? And again, 20pts is way too much.

Broodlord- Good to see it moved back to an HQ, glad you clarifyed on the Psychic powers it has (The Horror + Primaris, and what a brutal combination that could prove!). Not sure it was worth a 25pt increase in cost though, at least not without Scything Talons or Flesh Hooks as standard. Speaking of, why are Flesh Hooks double the cost of Scything Talons? There's an extra, massive problem there that I'll get into later.

Deathleaper- Nice points drop, the only problem I have with it (and Lictors) is the same as I currently do, it's only T4 for a creature double the size of a Space Marine, surely they should be T5?

Old One Eye- Points drop, +1 WS, Feel no Pain, Eternal Warrior and dropping Instinctive Behaviour are all excellent improvements but I feel Hatred (Sgt Telion) to be rather useless, particularly since his Warlord trait gives him Hatred to begin with. Not sure about dropping Berserk Rampage for straight up Rampage, though I guess it doesn't make that big of a difference. Lastly, why is it still Initiative 2 when you've made Carnifexes I3?

The Red Terror- Why is this an HQ choice now? This one doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, it's not a leader type creature at all. Worst thing about this is the loss of the Swallow Whole special rule, though it didn't come into effect often I loved it. Loosing IB helps, obviously, but I don't see any reason why it shouldn't have it, +1 I is cool, Hammer of Wrath is nice but largely useless. I like the fact that it can leave Ravenor units now though, since it doesn't have IB any more and Fearless doesn't seem to have any effect on it that could lead to some very weird situations in trying to work out what a Ravenor unit outside of Synapse but with a RT attached should do.

Warriors- 10ppm price drop is good but losing 1W whilst still being T4 feels like an overall nerf to me, and they were'n't exactly a highly efficient unit to start with.

Hormagaunts- The changes to Scything Talons and giving them the Beast type makes for a huge buff, which they needed. 2pt Toxin Sacs is cool as well. Expendable seems like an OK rule and quite fluffy, I like it's inclusion.

Tervigon- Why on earth is this a Troops choice, this one makes no sense whatsoever? Points drop is spot on, and I love the Brood Sac special rule, but Brood Progenetor is massively punishing though and far more so than the current version. Is there a reason for that?

Genestealers- excellent changes, pretty much exactly what they needed.

Mucolid Spore- I think I'm in agreement with those that say it should be moved to Fast Attack.

Ripper Swarms- Excellent changes.

Tyrant Guard- Still too expensive, can't take Flesh Hooks and can only be taken in units of 3. Not good.

Hive Guard- BS4, exactly what they should already have. Still can't see a reason why Schock Cannons aren't a free replacement, they have 1 less shot and 6" less range, Hawyire and Balst does not make up for that. Still not worth 50ppm, especially now you've dropped them to T5, and it would be nice to take them in squads of 5.

Zoanthrope/Neurothrope- As you can tell by now I have a dislike for all the elite infantry being a flat 50pts, per model they are not worth it. Psychic Brood change is very nice, I like it, but why did you feel the need to hit the Neurothrope with the nerf bat? I know Spirit Leech is a powerful ability but getting rid of it completely was not called for. Also, why did you drop maximum squad size from 6 back to 3 again, surely just stating a maximum Psychic Mastery Level, or 1 level per 2 models would have been better?

Trygon- Another baffling combat role change, nothing about this unit would put it in Elite, especially when you left the Prime in Heavy Support. I like the change to Subterranean Assault, Trygons being able to automatically come in turn 1 is perfect and makes the tunnel useful, though I don't like the 1 unit per turn restriction. Points change was good as usual, but what's Ravenous Advance, I've yet to fins where you explain this special rule?

Malaceptor- Points drop and +1 to it's invuln, BS and ML are great and may actually make it usable, still not sure on the Psychic Overload power though at WC2.

Shrikes- I can't see why they are 2ppm more expensive than Warriors, with the 2W nerf, difficult terrain, T4 and 5+ armour they're just going to die very quickly which counters the extra mobility quite a lot.

Lictors- Not sure on the Fast Attack change but this one isn't such a big deal. Overall it feels like you've taken away more than you've given to them, 1 less wound is not good for what was already a fragile unit and I really, really hate the change to Pheremone Trail (Mawlocs + Lictors was one of the few effective combos Tyranids have which wouldn't work at all with this change and nothing to replace it with. I also enjoyed using them with Ravenors and Ripper Swarms.), at least Chameleonic skin and the removal of IB are good changes.

Gargoyls- Still meh.

Harpy- Could probably do with being slightly cheaper but other than that is fine.

Hive Crone- Maybe knock 10pts off but other than that is fine.

Pyrovore- This is.... interesting. I'd never considered making the Pyrovore a fast assault unit and with S5, AP2 and the Beast type it'll certainly get into combat and do damage, being I2 the lack of assault grenades wont really hurt. Run and Shoot doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me though, this thing wants to be in combat and if it's close enough to use it's flamer then it doesn't really need to run, and if it runs it can't then charge. Again, larger squads would be nice.

Haruspex- Being 30pts cheaper is nice and giving it an extra 3" move will certainly help but it's still got far to few attacks to be effective.

Ravenor- Loosing a Wound and BS does not help this unit in the slightest, and the ranged weapon upgrades are ludicrously expensive for a BS2 unit. Still cant take Flesh Hooks either.

Spore Mines- Stealth is nice, gives them a chance to be worth those 5ppm. The larger squads are nice.

Carnifex- Points drop is good, as is the +1 Initiative and attack for Living Battering Ram but why did you feel the need to drop it's strength? Still too slow and vulnerable to be the monster it once was.

Biovore- Symbiotic Targeting, ouch this guy is really going to hurt, nice.

Exocrine- The biggest problem with what should be an excellent unit is the short range at 24", so you make the blest even shorter range?!! Why?

Toxicrene- WS5 is a huge boost to this guy and I love the preferred enemy from Feeder Tendrils (should have mentioned that with the Lictor and Deathleaper). Still too expensive at 160pts though.

Mawloc- I love the changes to Terror from the Deep, this things even more leathel now and an effective counter to Invisible units as well. One thing I noticed with this and the Trygon, why the locked Tail Biomorph choice?

Trygon Prime- I agree with the price drop on this guy.

Tyrannofex- AP3 on Acid Spray is great and the Living Artillery rule is brilliant, still don't like it being BS3 though, it's the biggest reason not to take the Rupture Cannon. Symbiotic Targeting would work well here as well.

Tyrannocyte- Points drop is good, maybe it would be a good idea to list it as a Dedicated Transport for other units and put it into Fast Attack, it is basically a Drop Pod after all. I'm really liking the Defensive Array weapons rules.

Swarmlord- An increase to his BS, A, Mastery Level and Sv are good, a 15pt increase is not. Could do with Fleet because the Swarmlord is a slow moving, high priority target with no shooting weapons. The fact that it lacks Eternal Warrior or access to an invuln outside of combat makes him pretty vulnrable as well. Definitely not worth 300pts.

Psychic Powers- Overall I'm liking the changes you've made here though I think having 2 Psychic tables would be better than 3. I see where you've put Spirit Leech though, personally I think it was better on the Neurothrope as it was worth the 25pts then. Warp Blast should be WC1 IMO, and I think it would be better to separate out the two profiles. Cataclysm should be WC3, there's no way in hell that a Strength D Large Blast should be WC2. Hypnotic Gaze should be WC1, or changed so that the target can take no actions until the end of it's next turn.

Melee Weapons- Boneswords and Bonesword & Lashwhip are both too expensive still, and I'm not liking the Entangle rule, seems needlessly complicated and will be ignored until the bearer is the last model left. I much prefer the current Swifstrike. Scything Talons are horribly problematic. You've effectively made them Assault Grenades, making Flesh Hooks not only more expensive in most cases but completely redundant. The biggest problem with this is that you're forcing units to give up killing power to be able to strike at Initiative, a really stupid decision because outside of MC's your striking at S User, AP6 and probably WS3 so even going first your not going to kill much. This doesn't so much as take away choice as give nothing but bad choices. Why couldn't you have just given greater access to cheap Flesh Hooks, I honestly can't see anything good about this change.

Ranged Weapons- This is much better, though you missed the range for the Stranglethorn Cannon. I like the Living Ammunition rule though it might be a bit too powerful on TWLDevourers (you forgot to list it as Twin Linked for it's entry) and the Fleshborer Hive, Deathspitters being AP4 is a good improvement. Rupture seems like a cool rule on the Rupture Cannon but given the only unit that can take it is BS3, it'll be hard to get those two hits successfully. You gave Shreddershard Beatles the exact same profile as Electroshock Grubbs, Spike Rifle has the exact same profile as the Shock Cannon (though that might actually make it useful!). Not impressed with the Venom Cannons still being Small Blast weapons, it's the reason I avoid using them after too many disappointments.

Biomorphs- I don't like the changes to Adrenal Glands, Fleet and Furious Charge are far more useful than Rage and Counter Attack. Enhanced Senses are interesting, a shame it's only the Carnifex that can take them.Good to see Extended Carapace back. Implant Attack seems very cool, I like that alot. Tail Biomorph changes are very cool, far more useful than the extra attack they currently grant.

Some of those formations seem quite interesting. I retract my previous statement, this is definitely a better codex than the current one, yet I feel there's been too much taking with one hand whilst giving with another, and mostly on units that were underperforming to begin with.

I REALLY appreciate the detailed response, thanks so much! I'll try to address everything you brought up.

Imateria wrote:Shadow in the Warp- A good change, makes it usable for more than just those occasions when your opponent perils. I think I would have kept the -3 to leadership though, or at least had it at -2 rather than -1.

Shadow in the Warp's Leadership de-buff now affects all units not just Leadership, you don't think a flat -2 in all situations would be too strong?

Imateria wrote:Instinctive Behaviour- What do you mean by "takes X casualties"? Is this a pre set amount or based on a dice role? Either way I'd still hate IB, loosing controle of your army is never fun. Also, at no point have you explained why the unit entries have Instinctive Behaviour listed as Feed (D6) or Feed (D3), this is confusing as I have no idea what it is your trying to have me do with this.

The last paragraph in Instinctive Behaviour outlines this but that page is a bit too crowded, I think I'll split it out over two pages.

"If a result on the table below refers to X models, use the amount listed alongside the units Instinctive Behaviour rule (for example Hormagaunts have Instinctive Behaviour - Feed (D6))."

Imateria wrote:Warlord Traits- I like them, they all seem useful at least to some degree and a vast improvement on the dead duck of a list we currently have.

Thank you!

Imateria wrote:Adaptive Instincts- basically re-roll to see how badly your screwed. Should be a re-roll on the leadership test instead, for an army with a huge number of models with Ld 7 or worse and guaranteed to loose control of the army if we fail is far too punishing with nothing to mitigate against it.

Imateria wrote:Hive Tyrant- I like the increase in base Attacks and the drop in points, though not sure why wings have gone up from 35 to 40pts? Not many changes here but probably the only unit that didn't need any.

Wings went up alongside TL Devourers to keep the standard Flyrant build at the same price. I didn't want our already strongest unit to get any stronger, but I wanted to make walking Tyrants or melee Flyrants attractive again.

Imateria wrote:Warrior Prime- I like the price drop a lot, and the option to take Wings and make him Jump Infantry and to join with Shrikes is very cool, though is at least double it's worth at 20pts. At no point do you explain what a Ravenor Body is, I'm sure the intent here is to make it like a Ravenor but if you don't explain it how is anybody supposed to know? And again, 20pts is way too much.

That was a bad oversight on my part, yes the Ravener body was supposed to make him a Beast unit type. I'll play test with both upgrades reduced to 10 pts.

Imateria wrote:Broodlord- Good to see it moved back to an HQ, glad you clarifyed on the Psychic powers it has (The Horror + Primaris, and what a brutal combination that could prove!). Not sure it was worth a 25pt increase in cost though, at least not without Scything Talons or Flesh Hooks as standard. Speaking of, why are Flesh Hooks double the cost of Scything Talons? There's an extra, massive problem there that I'll get into later.

I missed out on the Independent Character rule he's supposed to have, which I thought made for a worthwhile base points increase, especially considering he gained Hit & Run and Stealth (which he can now transfer to other units like Gants).

Imateria wrote:Deathleaper- Nice points drop, the only problem I have with it (and Lictors) is the same as I currently do, it's only T4 for a creature double the size of a Space Marine, surely they should be T5?

Possibly. That wouldn't be a bad change. They are supposed to be based on the Warrior body though and I don't want increase those to T5. I know I don't have to, haha, but keeping it fluffy while making it better is important to me.

Imateria wrote:Old One Eye- Points drop, +1 WS, Feel no Pain, Eternal Warrior and dropping Instinctive Behaviour are all excellent improvements but I feel Hatred (Sgt Telion) to be rather useless, particularly since his Warlord trait gives him Hatred to begin with. Not sure about dropping Berserk Rampage for straight up Rampage, though I guess it doesn't make that big of a difference. Lastly, why is it still Initiative 2 when you've made Carnifexes I3?

Hatred (Sgt. Telion) is useless! But it's also super fluffy (in the original fluff it was Sgt. Telion that finnaly stopped his rampage on Macragge) so I thought it was fun to add. The Initiative drop was an oversight, I forgot to increase him when I increased normal Carni's.

Imateria wrote:The Red Terror- Why is this an HQ choice now? This one doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, it's not a leader type creature at all. Worst thing about this is the loss of the Swallow Whole special rule, though it didn't come into effect often I loved it. Loosing IB helps, obviously, but I don't see any reason why it shouldn't have it, +1 I is cool, Hammer of Wrath is nice but largely useless. I like the fact that it can leave Ravenor units now though, since it doesn't have IB any more and Fearless doesn't seem to have any effect on it that could lead to some very weird situations in trying to work out what a Ravenor unit outside of Synapse but with a RT attached should do.

Swallow Whole was cool but complicated and it came up infrequently. Giving it Implant Attack seemed like a worthwhile replacement.

Imateria wrote:Warriors- 10ppm price drop is good but losing 1W whilst still being T4 feels like an overall nerf to me, and they were'n't exactly a highly efficient unit to start with.

With the increased durability from having Expendable units nearby they've always felt worth it to me. But then again I play in an only mildly competitive meta. I'm not against making Warrior-strain creatures T5 necessarily, I was just hoping for a more elegant solution.

Imateria wrote:Hormagaunts- The changes to Scything Talons and giving them the Beast type makes for a huge buff, which they needed. 2pt Toxin Sacs is cool as well. Expendable seems like an OK rule and quite fluffy, I like it's inclusion.

Imateria wrote:Tervigon- Why on earth is this a Troops choice, this one makes no sense whatsoever? Points drop is spot on, and I love the Brood Sac special rule, but Brood Progenetor is massively punishing though and far more so than the current version. Is there a reason for that?

I was trying to balance the fact that you'll likely get more rolls than before with the new Brood Sac rule. I might've swung too far the other way. The only a Troop thing was to balance the fact that they no longer have a Termagant tax to take them.

Imateria wrote:Genestealers- excellent changes, pretty much exactly what they needed.

Thanks!

Imateria wrote:Mucolid Spore- I think I'm in agreement with those that say it should be moved to Fast Attack.

I can see that argument.

Imateria wrote:Ripper Swarms- Excellent changes.

Thanks!

Imateria wrote:Tyrant Guard- Still too expensive, can't take Flesh Hooks and can only be taken in units of 3. Not good.

The units of 3 thing is because I think Deathstars are bad for the health of the game. I can see the too expensive though. If anything deserves to be W3 these guys do.

Imateria wrote:Hive Guard- BS4, exactly what they should already have. Still can't see a reason why Schock Cannons aren't a free replacement, they have 1 less shot and 6" less range, Hawyire and Balst does not make up for that. Still not worth 50ppm, especially now you've dropped them to T5, and it would be nice to take them in squads of 5.

Agreed on all counts.

Imateria wrote:Zoanthrope/Neurothrope- As you can tell by now I have a dislike for all the elite infantry being a flat 50pts, per model they are not worth it. Psychic Brood change is very nice, I like it, but why did you feel the need to hit the Neurothrope with the nerf bat? I know Spirit Leech is a powerful ability but getting rid of it completely was not called for. Also, why did you drop maximum squad size from 6 back to 3 again, surely just stating a maximum Psychic Mastery Level, or 1 level per 2 models would have been better?

Fair points, capping the Mastery Level works just as well as limiting the squad size. Spirit Leech was moved to be the Primaris so I felt the addition of Absorb Life made the 25 pt upgrade more worth it.

Imateria wrote:Trygon- Another baffling combat role change, nothing about this unit would put it in Elite, especially when you left the Prime in Heavy Support. I like the change to Subterranean Assault, Trygons being able to automatically come in turn 1 is perfect and makes the tunnel useful, though I don't like the 1 unit per turn restriction. Points change was good as usual, but what's Ravenous Advance, I've yet to fins where you explain this special rule?

Ravenous Advance is found under the Haruspex (I need to add pg number references), it adds 3" to its Movement in the Movement Phase. I moved it to Elite just to thin out the getting super crowded Heavy Support section.

Imateria wrote:Malaceptor- Points drop and +1 to it's invuln, BS and ML are great and may actually make it usable, still not sure on the Psychic Overload power though at WC2.

Imateria wrote:Shrikes- I can't see why they are 2ppm more expensive than Warriors, with the 2W nerf, difficult terrain, T4 and 5+ armour they're just going to die very quickly which counters the extra mobility quite a lot.

Dropped to 25ppm.

Imateria wrote:Lictors- Not sure on the Fast Attack change but this one isn't such a big deal. Overall it feels like you've taken away more than you've given to them, 1 less wound is not good for what was already a fragile unit and I really, really hate the change to Pheremone Trail (Mawlocs + Lictors was one of the few effective combos Tyranids have which wouldn't work at all with this change and nothing to replace it with. I also enjoyed using them with Ravenors and Ripper Swarms.), at least Chameleonic skin and the removal of IB are good changes.

Fast Attack made more sense to me, they are supposed to be the vanguard organisms. The loss of the Mawloc combo sucks but it REALLY annoyed me that Lictors never played anything like they were described in the stories, so I wanted to fix that for fluff reasons haha. This one won't make everyone happy but I'm gonna stick with it. I'll either change them to T5 if I change Warriors or I'll reduce the points down to 35.

Imateria wrote:Gargoyls- Still meh.

How would you make them not meh?

Imateria wrote:Harpy- Could probably do with being slightly cheaper but other than that is fine.

Imateria wrote:Hive Crone- Maybe knock 10pts off but other than that is fine.

Imateria wrote:Pyrovore- This is.... interesting. I'd never considered making the Pyrovore a fast assault unit and with S5, AP2 and the Beast type it'll certainly get into combat and do damage, being I2 the lack of assault grenades wont really hurt. Run and Shoot doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me though, this thing wants to be in combat and if it's close enough to use it's flamer then it doesn't really need to run, and if it runs it can't then charge. Again, larger squads would be nice.

It's their for two reasons, a.) it was part of the original fluff so I brought it back, and b.) the decurion style detachment lets you Run and Charge so if you go that way you can have your cake and eat it too!

Imateria wrote:aruspex- Being 30pts cheaper is nice and giving it an extra 3" move will certainly help but it's still got far to few attacks to be effective.

Increased to WS5 and A4. Don't want to give it too many base attacks with Crushing Claws (which are Str +2 now) or it will be overpowered against Walkers.

Imateria wrote:Ravenor- Loosing a Wound and BS does not help this unit in the slightest, and the ranged weapon upgrades are ludicrously expensive for a BS2 unit. Still cant take Flesh Hooks either.

I was thinking the Save increase from 5+ to 4+ would mitigate the loss of a wound, especially with the price drop. You're right about the upgrade costs. Reduced the price to 22ppm and added Flesh Hooks as a 3ppm upgrade.

Imateria wrote:Spore Mines- Stealth is nice, gives them a chance to be worth those 5ppm. The larger squads are nice.

Imateria wrote:Carnifex- Points drop is good, as is the +1 Initiative and attack for Living Battering Ram but why did you feel the need to drop it's strength? Still too slow and vulnerable to be the monster it once was.

Reduced the Strength because the Str 9 was largely symbolic - you either went Crushing Claws for the anti-vehicle (and my Crushing Claws still take you up to Str 10, or you want to kill Infantry and the difference between 8 and 9 does nothing. This helped justify the points drop while buffing it. And it will never be the monster it once was. It's absolutely tiny compared to our other Monstrous Creatures and those of us who fondly remember its glory days in 4th edition just need to accept it's diminished stature.

Imateria wrote:Biovore- Symbiotic Targeting, ouch this guy is really going to hurt, nice.

Imateria wrote:Exocrine- The biggest problem with what should be an excellent unit is the short range at 24", so you make the blest even shorter range?!! Why?

I was trying to balance out the increased Strength of the Blast. A common thread I think you've noticed is that I didn't want to just buff without trying to balance things, as so many FanDex's are just exclusively buffs and wishlisting.

Imateria wrote:Toxicrene- WS5 is a huge boost to this guy and I love the preferred enemy from Feeder Tendrils (should have mentioned that with the Lictor and Deathleaper). Still too expensive at 160pts though.

Imateria wrote:Mawloc- I love the changes to Terror from the Deep, this things even more leathel now and an effective counter to Invisible units as well. One thing I noticed with this and the Trygon, why the locked Tail Biomorph choice?

I locked the tail biomorph choice simply because (to the best of my knowledge) GW hasn't updated the assembly instructions and you are instructed which tail to apply. It would annoy me to build the model and then realize I had other options if I were a new player (I know new players are unlikely to pick up my FanDex, hah, but I want to write as if I were writing a real Codex).

Imateria wrote:Trygon Prime- I agree with the price drop on this guy.

Imateria wrote:Tyrannofex- AP3 on Acid Spray is great and the Living Artillery rule is brilliant, still don't like it being BS3 though, it's the biggest reason not to take the Rupture Cannon. Symbiotic Targeting would work well here as well.

I am resistant to making it BS4 because then it feels like the Str 10 AP4 is a failure when you are stuck with it, as opposed to the Str D being a rare but fun occurrence. Does that makes sense? I could be persuaded to change it though. Giving the Symbiotic Targetting rule to the Rupture Cannon itself might be a nice compromise.

Imateria wrote:Tyrannocyte- Points drop is good, maybe it would be a good idea to list it as a Dedicated Transport for other units and put it into Fast Attack, it is basically a Drop Pod after all. I'm really liking the Defensive Array weapons rules.

Defensive Array just felt so much easier than the cluster**** of rules it has now. I'm not sure what Battlefield Role it has matters since it doesn't take up a FOC slot haha.

Imateria wrote:Swarmlord- An increase to his BS, A, Mastery Level and Sv are good, a 15pt increase is not. Could do with Fleet because the Swarmlord is a slow moving, high priority target with no shooting weapons. The fact that it lacks Eternal Warrior or access to an invuln outside of combat makes him pretty vulnrable as well. Definitely not worth 300pts.

Lack of Eternal Warrior was a MASSIVE oversight on my part. Gave him access to Psychic Barrier and made Blade Parry increase his Invul to 3++. The Swarmlord has always had a feeling of ponderous inevitability to me, so I'd rather have him be durable than fast. His access to all of the Psychic powers makes him useful as a support monster until he gets into combat. Remember that with him having all Tyranid powers he gets access to Cataclysm and Warp Lance at all times, making him just as devastating at range.

Imateria wrote:Psychic Powers- Overall I'm liking the changes you've made here though I think having 2 Psychic tables would be better than 3. I see where you've put Spirit Leech though, personally I think it was better on the Neurothrope as it was worth the 25pts then. Warp Blast should be WC1 IMO, and I think it would be better to separate out the two profiles. Cataclysm should be WC3, there's no way in hell that a Strength D Large Blast should be WC2. Hypnotic Gaze should be WC1, or changed so that the target can take no actions until the end of it's next turn.

Disagree on the Spirit Leech placement, but agreed on the Warp Charge costs. Changed them.

Imateria wrote:Melee Weapons- Boneswords and Bonesword & Lashwhip are both too expensive still, and I'm not liking the Entangle rule, seems needlessly complicated and will be ignored until the bearer is the last model left. I much prefer the current Swifstrike. Scything Talons are horribly problematic. You've effectively made them Assault Grenades, making Flesh Hooks not only more expensive in most cases but completely redundant. The biggest problem with this is that you're forcing units to give up killing power to be able to strike at Initiative, a really stupid decision because outside of MC's your striking at S User, AP6 and probably WS3 so even going first your not going to kill much. This doesn't so much as take away choice as give nothing but bad choices. Why couldn't you have just given greater access to cheap Flesh Hooks, I honestly can't see anything good about this change.

Entangle isn't ignored until the last model is left since it uses the Differentiating Attacks rules. but I agree its too complicated. I just really don't like Swiftstrike, it doesn't do anything 90% of the time since it can't work when a model charges into terrain.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the Scything Talons changes, they're the thing I'm most happy with haha.

Imateria wrote:Ranged Weapons- This is much better, though you missed the range for the Stranglethorn Cannon. I like the Living Ammunition rule though it might be a bit too powerful on TWLDevourers (you forgot to list it as Twin Linked for it's entry) and the Fleshborer Hive, Deathspitters being AP4 is a good improvement. Rupture seems like a cool rule on the Rupture Cannon but given the only unit that can take it is BS3, it'll be hard to get those two hits successfully. You gave Shreddershard Beatles the exact same profile as Electroshock Grubbs, Spike Rifle has the exact same profile as the Shock Cannon (though that might actually make it useful!). Not impressed with the Venom Cannons still being Small Blast weapons, it's the reason I avoid using them after too many disappointments.

Fixed all the mistakes haha, thanks for pointing them out.

Imateria wrote:Biomorphs- I don't like the changes to Adrenal Glands, Fleet and Furious Charge are far more useful than Rage and Counter Attack. Enhanced Senses are interesting, a shame it's only the Carnifex that can take them.Good to see Extended Carapace back. Implant Attack seems very cool, I like that alot. Tail Biomorph changes are very cool, far more useful than the extra attack they currently grant.

Changed Adrenal Glands back, I had originally changed them because I was experimenting with other things granting fleet and furious charge easily and then it got left as a hold-over.

Imateria wrote:Some of those formations seem quite interesting. I retract my previous statement, this is definitely a better codex than the current one, yet I feel there's been too much taking with one hand whilst giving with another, and mostly on units that were underperforming to begin with.

Really appreciate the input, I'll make all the changes I mentioned as well as a few others and put up a v2 tomorrow or so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Version 1.2 is up now: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_Xe1GB9HM88ZG5PM0xEcVJQU1U

JesseS wrote:
I REALLY appreciate the detailed response, thanks so much! I'll try to address everything you brought up.

Shadow in the Warp's Leadership de-buff now affects all units not just Leadership, you don't think a flat -2 in all situations would be too strong?

I'd missed that it affects everything, why is that? Fluff wise SitW only ever effects Psykers. A permanent -2 is strong but when DE can drop Necrons to Ld4 when they go all out on the Freakshow it's not that bad.

[code]
The last paragraph in Instinctive Behaviour outlines this but that page is a bit too crowded, I think I'll split it out over two pages.

"If a result on the table below refers to X models, use the amount listed alongside the units Instinctive Behaviour rule (for example Hormagaunts have Instinctive Behaviour - Feed (D6))."

Fluff wise sitw does NOT only effect psykers. Fluff wise even weeks before the hive fleets arrive entire planets suffer senses of unease and horrific nightmares that wear on their psyche. This grows with every passing day until the general populace is a paranoid wreck when the fleets arrive.

Psykers without training go mad, bleed out their every orriface and die.

Sitw giving everyone a -2 ld is a perfectly reasonable way to represent the shadow in close contact on the table. Fluff wise it should be blanketing the planet, tying it to a range is fair for balance.

As Lance pointed out the fluff is explicit that the feeling of dread and horror hits everybody, it just hits psykers worse. I'm still torn on uping it to -2 Ld from -1. Most of the Imperial armies could handle it but it ends up really punishing Orks. Plus with a Synapse Creature acting as back up a Broodlord can force a unit to take The Horror's Pinning test on a -4 Ld, which is already extremely effective.

Dropped the Tervigon's Brood Progenitor rule from 3D6 down to a normal Leadership Test at -1 Ld. Also made it both a Troop and HQ choice.

Fluff-wise the Broodlord used to lead more than just Genestealers (in 4th Ed it was both an Independent Character and a Synapse Creature). It used to be the leader of the Tyranid vanguard, with the Hive Tyrants coming down after with the other larger beasts. I didn't want to fully roll back the Broodlord to 4th but giving it Independent Character back is just fun.

That's not exactly how I would have interpreted Differentiating Attacks to work since I didn't envision Wounds spilling over between "units" but then I'd have to explain that in the Lash Whips description and now they have gotten more complicated than the idea is worth. I can just revert back to Swiftstrike (which I have always hated) or come up with something different. Off the top of my head perhaps any unit that charges a unit with one of more models with Lash Whips is forced to make a disordered charge? I am very open to suggestions here, heh.

Going back to my 4th Ed Codex Gargoyles used to have a mini-Bio-Plasma attack. I'm dropping Blinding Venom and letting them swap all of their attacks for a single Str4 AP2 attack in close combat instead. At least it gives them a bit more of a role, they become a decent harassment unit, able to pick on weak backfield units like Cultists and Guardsmen with their Fleshborers or put at least a few wounds on MEQ or maybe even TEQ. It doesn't make them great (I'm not even sure it makes them good since they are still super fragile. But they are cheap and now at least not entirely pointless.

I'm not sure how making TL Devourers w/ Brainleech Worms 25pts isn't still worth it, the only two models models we took them on (Tyrants and Carnifexs) got cheaper. Flyrants with dual TL-Devs are the same price, walking Tryants with dual TL Devs are 5pts cheaper and Carnifex with dual are 10pts cheaper, so objectively if they were worth it then than they are more worth it now (plus the Living Ammunition buff). However if the "sticker shock" of the price encourages people to try out other guns I'm ok with that

Increased the Lictor and Deathleaper Saves to 4+.

Gave Warriors the option to take Extended Carapace for 5pts a model. That means that a 3+ Warrior is now the same 30pts as in the current GW Codex while being more durable. I also gave them the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule with access to the Adaptation Discipline, which lets them make themselves more durable at need (with some forethought at least, haha).

Any thoughts on how to improve the formations, or any that seem overpowered?

(Changes updated on the .pdf, version 1.3 is now live: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_Xe1GB9HM88ZG5PM0xEcVJQU1U

Some comments on version 1.2 (can't get to version 1.3 at work).

- Some of the point values seemed off (i.e. venomthropes were 50 pts for the first one and 45 for each additional)

- On the formations: there's no way to get pinning anymore. barrage no longer causes pinning, which is one of the reasons I take Living Artillery Node now. Might want to add it to the LAN in you set, or just give it to Biovores. This would be nice to have, especially with the -1 from Shadows and potential -1 from the Primaris power.

- Warriors dropping to 2 wounds reduces their durability to small arms fire or Wyvern type units, while not changing it at all versus S8+ wpns. Moving to a 3+ (version 1.3) doesn't help much, as you still have a mathematically lower durability to small arms, and most S8+ wpns are AP3 or better anyway. Three wounds at 25 pts is fine, as they are currently overcosted for what they bring.

- I almost want Flyrants to cost more, not the same, as they are really good for their price right now.

- Swiftstrike is immensely helpful if the holders of the weapon have Flesh-hooks or some other way to hit at Init, as this means they will be killing the SM with power swords before they get hit back.

- Rupture Cannon - Should be base AP:2. I've seen a version where, if both hit, the second shot is AP:1 and Armourbane, which I like better but only because I dislike D in 40k.

-I'll put more up later tonight once I can see 1.3.

It might be better to just leave it as a text only file (removing all the pictures and the background) until it's been nailed down better, makes it easier to read and flip through rather than waiting for it to download/load on older computers.

Thanks for this! It looks fun but not overpowered.

Version 1.4 is up: drive.google.com/open?id=0B_Xe1GB9HM88ZG5PM0xEcVJQU1U

I did another play-test game and I have officially caved to everybody - Warrior's and Shrikes have been returned to W3 (not Raveners though, I think W2 is fair on such a fast and assaulty unit for only 20ppm).

Most of v1.4 is typo and formatting fixing but I COMPLETELY reworked Instinctive Behaviour based on the discussion going on in a thread over at the Tyranid Hive (http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/51525/tyranids-out-negative-synapse?page=9). So I'd really appreciate feedback on those changes.

Lastly I changed Lash Whips again. Maybe I'll stay happy with them this time.

wraithbalor wrote:
It might be better to just leave it as a text only file (removing all the pictures and the background) until it's been nailed down better, makes it easier to read and flip through rather than waiting for it to download/load on older computers.

This is a good idea but unfortunately I don't have this as a text file, I just edit my Illustrator templates as I change things, so I'd have to compile it into a text file first. I may do that sometime when I have more free time, or I may just start doing 1 page text files outlining the version changes so people can just skim those. Probably the latter.

I like the changes to Instinctive Behaviour, it's no longer a shackle on the army.

One thing about the Defensive Array rule which I don't think is clear, the weapons are all Assault 3 or similar, are you firing one shot each at separate targets or 3 times at separate targets for a total of 9 shots, and can you target the same unit 3 times?

Comments on 1.3

- Tyrant Guard - it would be nice to have the option to take tyrant guard with 2+ armor, as their fluff has always been "most armored creature in existence, such that it doesn't have eyes as that would be a weak spot". Probably would need to cost 20+ points for it, though, especially with 3 wounds.

- Melee weapons: For infantry should drop the cost of melee weapons. In 7th edition, pretty much every melee weapon is overcosted and should be reduced.

- Hormagaunts: Why did they lose 'Bounding leap' or whatever their rule was? If you're going to strip that, it might be worth it to add Ravenous Advance to them.

- Malaceptor: Psychic Overload is still only a mediocre/crappy power. Maybe we could reduce the warp charge to 1, but change it to be a test on 2d6+2, rather than 3d6, which lowers the average from 10.5 to 9. Either that or target 3 units with it, rather than attempting to manifest multiple times.

- Shrikes: Give them the same Extended Carapace upgrade as Warriors.

- Hive Crone: Why did you increase the AP of Acid Spray but not the Drool Cannon? I like the change to the Seeker rule, more in line with Skyfire now. I like having the option for Thorax biomorphs.

- Pyrovore's: I just noticed that they are beasts now. Is that deliberate? I like, as I think we should have a significant amount of beasts. Just not sure if we might be erring on making it too strong, after so long being weak.

- Spore Mines: I like the changes, except maybe leave the min unit size at 3. It might make it way too easy to "null" deploy with single model spore mine units. Not sure though

- Carnifex: I'm loving the thought of ScyTal, CC, 2+ armor fexes slowly marching up the field. I think the lower strength is made up with the extra Hammer of Wrath attack, so that's OK. Why did you make the enhance senses upgrade only on the carnifex? That might actually be a really good upgrade for a lot of our shooty units, though the point value might want to be changed per unit.

- Biovores: might want to give the spore mine launcher Pinning

- Exocrine: Not sure I like the S:8 on the blast, even with the reduced range. Also, why did you remove the No Charging restriction from Symbiotic Targeting?

- Toxicrene: I like the change to Predatory Sentience, now it actually matters. Should we give him Ravenous Advance?

- Mawloc: Should have Ravenous Advance? Also, gave Shred instead of doing twice?

- Trygon/Prime: Would we want to change the bio-electric pulse to either add Tesla type rule or Haywire type rule on 6s? I've seen old Apoc formations that add the Haywire rule that seems pretty interesting.

- Tyrannofex: I still think Rupture Cannon should be AP:2 (as should the Bio-Cannons on the gargantuans). I also think AP:3 on the Acid Spray might be too powerful, or need a point increase. Needs playtesting. Also, why Init 2?

- Tyrannocyte: Maybe rephrase Defense Array as "The three closest legal enemy targets are fired at with the following profile" as you don't really have a choice on firing the weapon right now. Other than that, I like the changes

- Swarmy: I LOVE the changes to him! The only thing on him that I question is the change to Swarm Leader to be unable to target his unit. Maybe make it so that his unit and the other gets it, or he can target himself as well? I think the warlord trait needs a little work as well. Maybe make it so that one additional unit can Infiltrate, so it's not quite as good as Master of Ambush (from the Strategic traits table) or D3 for randomness sake. Also, maybe raise Init to 6?

- Psychic powers:
- Tyranogenesis should be 1 WC or just make it a copy of the Endurance power (kinda like GW just did with the new Chaos powers).
- Spirit Leech: I like that it can be used for any other spells, instead of just WC.
- Aura of Despair: Rather than a malediction, why not make it a blessing tied to the Psyker, i.e. it makes a 12" aura around the Psyker that causes all enemies to have a -1 to LD.
- Paroxysm: I like the set value, though even at 3 and including LD it doesn't quite feel like a WC 2 power. Iron Arm got changed from D3 to 3 and stayed at WC 1. The addition of Init and Attacks would make it a WC 2 power, but then it goes from the low-end of WC 2 to the high end. Maybe add attacks, but change the number reduced by to 2?
- Hypnotic gaze: Ah memories! Now I'm not sure if the Broodlord should have Horror or this. Maybe give them the option to pick? Gaze is the more quintessential Broodlord power.
- Overall: I like the changes and having more options is better than the one table we have now.

-Melee Weapons:
- I like CC being +2 S and AP1, makes them worth the points more things than just Carnifexes.
- And I like the changes to Acid Maw, much more useful now.
- With the addition of quasi assault grenades to ScyTals, maybe we should reduce the cost of Flesh Hooks?

- Shooting Weapons:
- I really like the living ammunition rule. Super fluffy and not too strong
- Barbed Strangler Array: If it's only 1 shot, probably shouldn't cost 25 points. I'd reduce the cost of this to 15 points, and VC too.
- Fleshborer hive: Either twin linked or the extra ten shots, but not both for free. Even with the 12" range, that's a lot of shots that are twin linked.
- Strangleweb: Needs to be S4, as it is the upgrade is not equal to a devourer.

- Biomorphs:
- Flesh hooks: Why lost 2" in range?
- Toxic Miasma: Why Poison 5+ now?
- I like the changes to the Tail Biomorphs
- Invasion leader: What does the maximum limit mean? Can you only add or subtract 2 total? I.e if you have a warlord with the trait to +- 1, Swarmy (not warlord) for +-1 and this upgrade, you can still only subtract or add 2? If so should reword to "may only modify the role by a maximum of 2"
- Indescribable Horror: Was it discard the lowest before, or just take the test on 3d6? Fear matters so little to the game that I forget.

- Bio-artifacts:
- Maw-claws: I really want to give them a better form of Rending.
- Reaper: I wouldn't give it Instant Death, as now they are better than Swarmy's sabers with the exception of the invul. Or we could give Swarmy's sabers Shred
- Zu-ul: Maybe make it one of each, and say Save instead of Armour Save, as you might want to re-roll a Cover or Invul save (if possible?)
- Ymgarl: Like it!
- Norn Crown: Like the addition of the Invul, should still only be 20-25 points.

Formations:
- I like the run/charge bonus, very fitting for us.
- Royal Node: needs another bonus, maybe FNP or something for making them tougher. Especially as, if you take Swarmy you get no bonus at all with the formation.
- Invasion swarm: I'd give either Hatred or Rage, rather than FC, as we can get FC from Adrenals. If you took this with nothing but Hormies, the benefit makes it so Adrenals are worthless. Also, why spore mines?
- I like the Genestealer infestation.
- Assasination Node: Make it 0-1 Deathleaper.
- Subterranean Assault: I'd make it so that everyone re-rolls scatter.
- LAN: I'm not sure why you would want split fire on Biovores. Unless two biovores is just the tax to be able to take split-firing carni broods. Maybe add pinning or a form of twin-linked like the current Artillery node?
- Guardian node: One dead Knight a turn. Check
- Burning Node: Why put Pyrovores and Exocrine together? Pyrovores want to be in the face of the enemy (and as beasts are significantly faster) while the Exocrine is a mid-range artillery piece.
- Wrecker Node: YES!

Any plans of redoing the IA4 models (i.e. our Gargantuans, Malanthrope, and Dimachaeron)?

I like this a lot, you have done some really good work here. I'll be able to give some comments on 1.4 tonight. Hopefully I can get some friends to play-test this on Friday.

 Imateria wrote:
I like the changes to Instinctive Behaviour, it's no longer a shackle on the army.

One thing about the Defensive Array rule which I don't think is clear, the weapons are all Assault 3 or similar, are you firing one shot each at separate targets or 3 times at separate targets for a total of 9 shots, and can you target the same unit 3 times?

I'm glad you like the IB changes, I feel like after a bunch of false starts that it finally suitably respects the fluff but doesn't hinder the army unduly.

The intention is you shoot the full profile at each target so each target receives three shots. I'm not sure if I need to rethink the wording or just add an example so its clearer.

I think it just needs to say "The profile can be fired 3 times at 3 separate targets." somewhere in there.

Beautiful formatting. I'm slowly making my own fandex and I have no idea how to make it this pretty.

As for the rules, I have yet to read them, probably not as OP as mine.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Tyrant Guard - it would be nice to have the option to take tyrant guard with 2+ armor, as their fluff has always been "most armored creature in existence, such that it doesn't have eyes as that would be a weak spot". Probably would need to cost 20+ points for it, though, especially with 3 wounds.

Good call, I'll add that to v1.5.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Melee weapons: For infantry should drop the cost of melee weapons. In 7th edition, pretty much every melee weapon is overcosted and should be reduced.

I agree that melee weapons are overcosted across the board but until GW brings the others in line I'll keep ours comparable for meta-balance purposes.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Hormagaunts: Why did they lose 'Bounding leap' or whatever their rule was? If you're going to strip that, it might be worth it to add Ravenous Advance to them.

Bounding Leap was a (poor) replacement for the Beasts unit type loss in 5th Ed. Since they've regained Beasts I just dropped it. Being Beasts makes them pretty fast now.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Malaceptor: Psychic Overload is still only a mediocre/crappy power. Maybe we could reduce the warp charge to 1, but change it to be a test on 2d6+2, rather than 3d6, which lowers the average from 10.5 to 9. Either that or target 3 units with it, rather than attempting to manifest multiple times.

I like both options but need to playtest to see which one should go into v1.5.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Shrikes: Give them the same Extended Carapace upgrade as Warriors.

I did in v1.4 haha, I had forgotten to transfer a lot of the Warrior changes to Shrikes in 1.3.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Hive Crone: Why did you increase the AP of Acid Spray but not the Drool Cannon? I like the change to the Seeker rule, more in line with Skyfire now. I like having the option for Thorax biomorphs.

I don't like AP3 templates on highly mobile units, its ignores too many defensive attributes and is something that becomes just innately overpowered. The Heldrakes AP3 template is one of the things that really had a negative effect on the meta. Plus this makes the Tyrannofex's higher price point more worth it.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Pyrovore's: I just noticed that they are beasts now. Is that deliberate? I like, as I think we should have a significant amount of beasts. Just not sure if we might be erring on making it too strong, after so long being weak.

Yah, they've always looked like fast units to me. They are built like a gorilla with those immense front arms and thick back legs, they should charge like a ton of bricks. You may be right about too cheap now. I've been so used to all our elites being highly overcosted that I may have overcorrected. I think they'd still be worth taking at 45.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Spore Mines: I like the changes, except maybe leave the min unit size at 3. It might make it way too easy to "null" deploy with single model spore mine units. Not sure though

The min unit size needs to be 1 or they are just worse in literally every way than Mucolids (being the same price and Wounds but being lower toughness and doing less damage). Plus null-deplying with 10 Spores spread across the board and everything else in Tyrannocites or Deep Striking sounds INCREDIBLY fluffy to me, I'm actually 100% ok with that.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Carnifex: I'm loving the thought of ScyTal, CC, 2+ armor fexes slowly marching up the field. I think the lower strength is made up with the extra Hammer of Wrath attack, so that's OK. Why did you make the enhance senses upgrade only on the carnifex? That might actually be a really good upgrade for a lot of our shooty units, though the point value might want to be changed per unit.

That's how I run mine as well using this FanDex, haha. Partially the upgrade is unique to Fex's because they are the only ones with the bits for it, and partially because I don't actually like the upgrade very much. +1 Ballistics is better for sure, but it goes against the idea of Tyranids which is medium volumes of medium accurate shots, sitting at a mid-point between Necrons and Orks. the Tyranids are highly adaptable but that doesn't have to mean better. Sometimes the better adaptation is making three swarm creatures as opposed to 1 bigger.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Biovores: might want to give the spore mine launcher Pinning

With the Symbiotic Targeting special rule I've already buffed a decent unit. I added Pinning to the LAN formation to compensate.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Exocrine: Not sure I like the S:8 on the blast, even with the reduced range. Also, why did you remove the No Charging restriction from Symbiotic Targeting?

What don't you like about it? Too strong? I removed the No Charging restriction because killing the movement on an already poorly ranged creature seems like enough of a penalty to warrant the buff.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Toxicrene: I like the change to Predatory Sentience, now it actually matters. Should we give him Ravenous Advance?

That's not a bad idea, they do LOOK fast.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Mawloc: Should have Ravenous Advance? Also, gave Shred instead of doing twice?

He's not great in CC and I wanted to promote people re-burrowing him as his faster movement rather than running him across the board. Shred is slightly worse than doing it twice, but is much simpler and I really wanted to get the complexity of Terror from the Deep down.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Trygon/Prime: Would we want to change the bio-electric pulse to either add Tesla type rule or Haywire type rule on 6s? I've seen old Apoc formations that add the Haywire rule that seems pretty interesting.

Haywire makes them too good at too many things. Adding Shock/Tesla wouldn't be bad though. With the points decreases and buffs they've already received though do they need any more buffs?

wraithbalorl wrote:- Tyrannofex: I still think Rupture Cannon should be AP:2 (as should the Bio-Cannons on the gargantuans). I also think AP:3 on the Acid Spray might be too powerful, or need a point increase. Needs playtesting. Also, why Init 2?

Maybe, the points would have to go up though if I made it AP2. In my playtesting the acid Spray is powerful but mitigated by how slow the unit is. Init 2 in order to emphasize the slow ponderous inevitability of the beast.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Tyrannocyte: Maybe rephrase Defense Array as "The three closest legal enemy targets are fired at with the following profile" as you don't really have a choice on firing the weapon right now. Other than that, I like the changes

Good phrasing.

wraithbalorl wrote:- Swarmy: I LOVE the changes to him! The only thing on him that I question is the change to Swarm Leader to be unable to target his unit. Maybe make it so that his unit and the other gets it, or he can target himself as well? I think the warlord trait needs a little work as well. Maybe make it so that one additional unit can Infiltrate, so it's not quite as good as Master of Ambush (from the Strategic traits table) or D3 for randomness sake. Also, maybe raise Init to 6?

I took Swarm Leader from being able to effect itself away because the idea is the Swarmlord is a tactical genius, able to better control the Hives forces. If it can buff itself then it feels like just a quasi-psychic power (and also being able to give itself Tank Hunter and then fire Warp Lance or Cataclysm seems way OP to me).

wraithbalorl wrote: - Tyranogenesis should be 1 WC or just make it a copy of the Endurance power (kinda like GW just did with the new Chaos powers).

I gotta disagree, we get a LOT more benefit to Eternal Warrior than other armies do with our huge volume of high W high T monsters. A Flyrant granting itself and the Carnifex Brood of 3 charging up the field Eternal Warrior is definitely a WC 2 ability.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Aura of Despair: Rather than a malediction, why not make it a blessing tied to the Psyker, i.e. it makes a 12" aura around the Psyker that causes all enemies to have a -1 to LD.

Is there a gameplay difference I'm missing?

wraithbalorl wrote: - Paroxysm: I like the set value, though even at 3 and including LD it doesn't quite feel like a WC 2 power. Iron Arm got changed from D3 to 3 and stayed at WC 1. The addition of Init and Attacks would make it a WC 2 power, but then it goes from the low-end of WC 2 to the high end. Maybe add attacks, but change the number reduced by to 2?

Gotta disagree again sorry. Paroxysm gets us a lot more benefit than it would another army with our high amount of WS 5 models. Dropping other elite units to WS 2 so they have to roll 5+ to hit most of our assault units is really powerful, moreso than it would be if other armies had it, like Orks.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Hypnotic gaze: Ah memories! Now I'm not sure if the Broodlord should have Horror or this. Maybe give them the option to pick? Gaze is the more quintessential Broodlord power.

You have a point - all of the Domination Powers are Broodlord derived, why not just let them roll normally.

wraithbalorl wrote: - I like CC being +2 S and AP1, makes them worth the points more things than just Carnifexes.

wraithbalorl wrote: - And I like the changes to Acid Maw, much more useful now.

Thanks!

wraithbalorl wrote: - With the addition of quasi assault grenades to ScyTals, maybe we should reduce the cost of Flesh Hooks?

Flesh Hooks are still mostly only 5pts or less on most models so I'm not sure they get much of a benefit for being any cheaper.

wraithbalorl wrote: - I really like the living ammunition rule. Super fluffy and not too strong

wraithbalorl wrote: - Barbed Strangler Array: If it's only 1 shot, probably shouldn't cost 25 points. I'd reduce the cost of this to 15 points, and VC too.

15 seems really cheap, you do get to fire them at up to 3 targets and since they have MUCH better range than the Deathspitters you're more likely to always be able to fire all three. I'll playtest them at 20 though and see what its like.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Fleshborer hive: Either twin linked or the extra ten shots, but not both for free. Even with the 12" range, that's a lot of shots that are twin linked.

Yah good point. I'll drop them to 20 shots.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Strangleweb: Needs to be S4, as it is the upgrade is not equal to a devourer.

Or make it a free swap instead of making it better.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Flesh hooks: Why lost 2" in range?

Flesh Hooks have always been 6", it's Spine Banks that have the 8" range.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Toxic Miasma: Why Poison 5+ now?

For simplicity sake I made it every "unit" involved takes a hit for every model in the unit rather than every model in B2B, which makes it hit a LOT more models potentially. It needed a nerf after that.

wraithbalorl wrote: - I like the changes to the Tail Biomorphs

Thanks! I really like the idea of the Tail Biomorphs but they were so clumsy and unnecessarily complicated before.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Invasion leader: What does the maximum limit mean? Can you only add or subtract 2 total? I.e if you have a warlord with the trait to +- 1, Swarmy (not warlord) for +-1 and this upgrade, you can still only subtract or add 2? If so should reword to "may only modify the role by a maximum of 2"

You've read it backwards its "max of 2+" not a "max of +2", meaning that you can never get your reserves on a roll of 1+ (i.e can't get them automatically), but you can reduce the dice by as much as you want.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Indescribable Horror: Was it discard the lowest before, or just take the test on 3d6? Fear matters so little to the game that I forget.

Same as before.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Maw-claws: I really want to give them a better form of Rending.

Good point, AP4 wouldn't be overpowered.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Reaper: I wouldn't give it Instant Death, as now they are better than Swarmy's sabers with the exception of the invul. Or we could give Swarmy's sabers Shred

Good point, maybe Super LIfe Drain for ID on 5+ instead of 6. But with a better name than "Super Life Drain" hahaha.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Zu-ul: Maybe make it one of each, and say Save instead of Armour Save, as you might want to re-roll a Cover or Invul save (if possible?)

If I did 2 I'd have to make it more expensive and I wanted to keep it cheap so we have a couple cheap options. Yah, it should cover Cover and Invul saves as well. Its essentially Necrons 5th Ed Chronometron and that was always worth its 10pts even only getting one re-roll a turn.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Norn Crown: Like the addition of the Invul, should still only be 20-25 points.

20 pts is waaaay too cheap, but I could see 30.

wraithbalorl wrote: - I like the run/charge bonus, very fitting for us.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Royal Node: needs another bonus, maybe FNP or something for making them tougher. Especially as, if you take Swarmy you get no bonus at all with the formation.

Good point. FNP seems a bit strong but they need something extra, yah.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Invasion swarm: I'd give either Hatred or Rage, rather than FC, as we can get FC from Adrenals. If you took this with nothing but Hormies, the benefit makes it so Adrenals are worthless. Also, why spore mines?

I was thinking that it made Adrenals unnecessary and therefore you could save the points by not taking them andt hat was essentially the buff, but I guess that doesn't really make any sense because those units will eventually have to leave the bubble. I'll change it Rage.

wraithbalorl wrote: - I like the Genestealer infestation.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Assasination Node: Make it 0-1 Deathleaper.

If I make it 0-1 Deathleaper I'll have to change it from 1-3 Lictor Broods to either 2-3 or maybe 3-5, otherwise its just a free buff to Lictors with no tax.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Subterranean Assault: I'd make it so that everyone re-rolls scatter.

The Trygons already have mishap protective but yah, I should extend it to the Mawlocs to make up for taking the Lictor combo away from them.

wraithbalorl wrote:- LAN: I'm not sure why you would want split fire on Biovores. Unless two biovores is just the tax to be able to take split-firing carni broods. Maybe add pinning or a form of twin-linked like the current Artillery node?

The 1.4 version is very different.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Guardian node: One dead Knight a turn. Check

Yah, it's expensive in terms of units but we need a reliable way to deal with SuperHeavies and this seemed fair but not OP.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Burning Node: Why put Pyrovores and Exocrine together? Pyrovores want to be in the face of the enemy (and as beasts are significantly faster) while the Exocrine is a mid-range artillery piece.

For those people who would rather run a gunline than a horde. It's not how *I* enjoy playing my Tyranids but I know some people do.

wraithbalorl wrote: - Wrecker Node: YES!

I'm a little worried this is OP but it requires you to hyper specialize your units, and Carni's are still slow.

wraithbalorl wrote:Any plans of redoing the IA4 models (i.e. our Gargantuans, Malanthrope, and Dimachaeron)?

Yes but I'll do it as a separate FanDex (i.e. Anphelion Project Fan Edition) after the core codex is finished.

wraithbalorl wrote:I like this a lot, you have done some really good work here. I'll be able to give some comments on 1.4 tonight. Hopefully I can get some friends to play-test this on Friday.

I'd really appreciate getting feedback after you've played a game. I've done a decent amount of play testing on my own but (as we've seen with GW) 1 person playing their style is not a substitute for lots of people with different playstyles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyran wrote:
Beautiful formatting. I'm slowly making my own fandex and I have no idea how to make it this pretty.

As for the rules, I have yet to read them, probably not as OP as mine.

I put the .ai template file in that shared folder. If you have access to Adobe Illustrator or another program that can use .ai files feel free to use it.

I agree that melee weapons are overcosted across the board but until GW brings the others in line I'll keep ours comparable for meta-balance purposes.

Good call.

Bounding Leap was a (poor) replacement for the Beasts unit type loss in 5th Ed. Since they've regained Beasts I just dropped it. Being Beasts makes them pretty fast now.

Wow, I'm an idiot and completely missed they got Beasts.

wraithbalorl wrote:
- Malaceptor: Psychic Overload is still only a mediocre/crappy power. Maybe we could reduce the warp charge to 1, but change it to be a test on 2d6+2, rather than 3d6, which lowers the average from 10.5 to 9. Either that or target 3 units with it, rather than attempting to manifest multiple times.

I like both options but need to playtest to see which one should go into v1.5.

My main disagreement with the WC2 version is that it takes 3 successes to be "Focused" which takes around 6 dice to be reliable. So 18 dice to get it off three times. That's a lot of dice for a roughly 50% odds of doing some damage to a couple characters.

I don't like AP3 templates on highly mobile units, its ignores too many defensive attributes and is something that becomes just innately overpowered. The Heldrakes AP3 template is one of the things that really had a negative effect on the meta. Plus this makes the Tyrannofex's higher price point more worth it.

I agree the Crone's shouldn't be AP3. I'm more worried that the Tyrannofex shouldn't be. I know I hate AP3 (or AP2!) flamers, so I'm worried that a Torrent S6 AP3 flamer is too much for the Tyrannofex.

The min unit size needs to be 1 or they are just worse in literally every way than Mucolids (being the same price and Wounds but being lower toughness and doing less damage). Plus null-deplying with 10 Spores spread across the board and everything else in Tyrannocites or Deep Striking sounds INCREDIBLY fluffy to me, I'm actually 100% ok with that.

OK, makes sense to me.

What don't you like about it? Too strong? I removed the No Charging restriction because killing the movement on an already poorly ranged creature seems like enough of a penalty to warrant the buff.

Yup, I think it might be too strong. S8 gives us ID against T4, adding yet another nail in the Coffin of why Grey Knight Paladins are useless. I think the game should have less S8+ AP2 large blast/lots of shots guns (I know I directly contradict that with the Rupture Cannon, but I think 2 or less shots high S/AP is OK, the problem is large blast/3+ shots)

With the points decreases and buffs they've already received though do they need any more buffs?

Trygons/Primes probably don't need any buffs. That might be a good idea for a different formation later (in the expansion book) to add to them, with some tax units.

Maybe, the points would have to go up though if I made it AP2. In my playtesting the acid Spray is powerful but mitigated by how slow the unit is. Init 2 in order to emphasize the slow ponderous inevitability of the beast.

I'd be fine with paying 25 or more points for the RC if it was AP2 and had the possible D hit. Makes it feel more Anti-Tank. OK, I'm used to dropping a T-fex in the backfield with a T-cyte, which mitigates their slowness and roasts Long Fangs/Dev squads alive now. Why I'm worried. More playtesting!.

I took Swarm Leader from being able to effect itself away because the idea is the Swarmlord is a tactical genius, able to better control the Hives forces. If it can buff itself then it feels like just a quasi-psychic power (and also being able to give itself Tank Hunter and then fire Warp Lance or Cataclysm seems way OP to me).

Ok. I like that feeling as well. Tank Hunter doesn't affect Strength D shots, so it'd only buff WL.

I gotta disagree, we get a LOT more benefit to Eternal Warrior than other armies do with our huge volume of high W high T monsters. A Flyrant granting itself and the Carnifex Brood of 3 charging up the field Eternal Warrior is definitely a WC 2 ability.

Except the Carni's and Flyrant don't need it much, as Force/ID is a fairly rare thing. It makes us stronger vs. Grey Knights. It's more of a benefit to Warriors/Shrikes/ Our T4/5 multiwound models as it protects us from that random Krak missile, but it does the same thing to a Wulfen squad or Flesh Hound squad. I still like it. I think my disagreement is something like my disagreement with the Maleceptor's power, and thats the unreliability of getting a WC2 power off (though this might just be me. I've failed WC2 powers on 8 dice multiple times).

Is there a gameplay difference I'm missing?

Partially a feeling difference (i.e. he's emitting it constantly rather than one time), partially a blessing is harder to deny, and it will move with him if he charges/runs, and the opponent can get rid of it by killing the Psyker.

Gotta disagree again sorry. Paroxysm gets us a lot more benefit than it would another army with our high amount of WS 5 models. Dropping other elite units to WS 2 so they have to roll 5+ to hit most of our assault units is really powerful, moreso than it would be if other armies had it, like Orks

Good point, wasn't thinking of other WS5 guys.

wraithbalorl wrote:
- Barbed Strangler Array: If it's only 1 shot, probably shouldn't cost 25 points. I'd reduce the cost of this to 15 points, and VC too.
15 seems really cheap, you do get to fire them at up to 3 targets and since they have MUCH better range than the Deathspitters you're more likely to always be able to fire all three. I'll playtest them at 20 though and see what its like.

I saw (after I wrote this) that the Venom Cannon Array is Assault 3, while the Barbed Strangler is Assault 1. Is that deliberate? You're right on cost. Even at 25 pts its still cheaper than it was.

Or make [strangleweb] a free swap instead of making it better.

Yeah, could do that. It's just that, at S2 AP-, its just about useless (needs a 5-6 to wound, then they have armor, and Pinning requires an unsaved wound to go through).

Flesh Hooks have always been 6", it's Spine Banks that have the 8" range

Thats what I get for commenting without my rulebook.

For simplicity sake I made it every "unit" involved takes a hit for every model in the unit rather than every model in B2B, which makes it hit a LOT more models potentially. It needed a nerf after that.

Good point

You've read it backwards its "max of 2+" not a "max of +2", meaning that you can never get your reserves on a roll of 1+ (i.e can't get them automatically), but you can reduce the dice by as much as you want.

Except a 3 is what is needed to bring in reserves, assuming you have no penalties, so on a 1 you'll still get them in with 2+. You could add a line that "a roll of a 1 on the dice fails the reserve roll even when using this rule"

Good point, maybe Super LIfe Drain for ID on 5+ instead of 6. But with a better name than "Super Life Drain" hahaha.

Ultra Life Drain (on a 5+ except vs Smurfs, where its a 4+)

20 pts is waaaay too cheap, but I could see 30.

Yeah, 30 might work. Maybe make it a 4+ invul (like an Iron Halo) as well?

If I make it 0-1 Deathleaper I'll have to change it from 1-3 Lictor Broods to either 2-3 or maybe 3-5, otherwise its just a free buff to Lictors with no tax.

The problem with including Deathleaper is that he is unique, and thus you can only ever have one of these formations. If we keep Deathleaper, I'd like it to be 1-6 broods, so you can bring more Lictors if you want.

The 1.4 version is very different.

I like the new LAN!

I'm a little worried this is OP but it requires you to hyper specialize your units, and Carni's are still slow.

I don't think it's to OP, as the Carni's are the real danger and they are really slow. Makes Knights stay away, though, as they get munched now.

Yes but I'll do it as a separate FanDex (i.e. Anphelion Project Fan Edition) after the core codex is finished.

Awesome! I love the thought of Ravenous Advance (or increasing Leap) for Dima, and the Malanthrope needs a point increase or nerfing. Our Gargs need so much help.

'd really appreciate getting feedback after you've played a game. I've done a decent amount of play testing on my own but (as we've seen with GW) 1 person playing their style is not a substitute for lots of people with different playstyles.

Will do, I should have some friends who'd be interested in playtesting.


Version 1.4 Comments

- I like the changes to Synapse/IB. Makes it beneficial to us for being in it (beyond Fearless which has it's own drawbacks) while still being punishing outside it. Now it's even more important to kill the Synapse first.
- Maleceptor: I just realized that you changed the power to be D3 wounds with no saves of anykind. Definitely worth WC2 now.
- Pyrovore: His explosion should have Ignores Cover?
- Gargoyles: Raised their cost because of the AP2 weapon? Might be good to have the bliding venom/plasma as options. Might make Blinding venom cause a blind test with a -1 to Init for every 2 additional hits?
- Hive Crone: One thought would be to add a clause to Seeking that lets them fire all 4 in a single phase (if they fire no other weapons).
- Shrikes: 4+ armor shrikes! No longer fearing of SMS looking at them funny.
- Mawloc: Maybe give him 1 set of ScyTals, to get the assault grenade benefit.
- Spore Mine Launcher: Probably should clarify how many Spore Mines you get if you have a unit of more than 1 Biovore.
- Swarmy: Give him the Prehensile Pincer or Thresher Scythe tail benefit (I"m not sure which one his model has)?
- Royal Node: Possible upgrade - Defensive Advance"The Tyrant and his guard move into a defensive position for advancing up the field. If the Tyrant has joined the unit of Tyrant Guard, they may move up using a Defensive Advance. The unit gains the FNP (5+) rule, but moves as if in difficult terrain" based on an Apoc formation upgrade that is similar (the Apoc formation gives +1 to armor saves and Shrouded, but that might be too strong for normal 40k).
- Invasion swarm (or another formation): We should have a formation that gives similar rules to Endless Swarm (i.e. hormies/termies come back on a 4+) to give the feeling of an endless horde. Traitor's hate has something like that for Cultists, so it's not too overpowered, though we might want to say they come back with no upgrades, so you don't get recycling Dakkagants
- Aerial Predator Node: No need to allow beasts/cavalry, as they can't be pinned. Units that cannot go to ground cannot be pinned.
- Living Artillery Node: The Tyranid Prime can't take a Bio-cannon. Maybe rephrase it to "The Tyranid Prime may and must take a Basic Bio-Cannon" to make it clear that we are adding the ability for him to do so here?

I can't wait to try this out!

So how does this fandex deals with things like invisibility, rerolleable 2++ saves and grav spam?

Also like the normal codex, it seems to be quite screwed against melee walkers as only the Carnifex has decent melee anti-tank.

wraithbalor wrote:I agree the Crone's shouldn't be AP3. I'm more worried that the Tyrannofex shouldn't be. I know I hate AP3 (or AP2!) flamers, so I'm worried that a Torrent S6 AP3 flamer is too much for the Tyrannofex.

I see your point, but it's a very slow unit and to make it "fast" requires putting it in a 65 pt transport. The key problem is that a Strength 6 AP4 flamer is far too under-powered for how expensive the Tyrannofex needs to be because of its massive durability. A compromise would be Strength 5 AP3 - its not quite as punishing on MEQ's since it's only Wounding on 3s instead of 2s but still gives us something besides "bucketloads of dice" to handle massed 3+ saves, especially considering how that's our main strategy against most things.

wraithbalor wrote:Yup, I think it might be too strong. S8 gives us ID against T4, adding yet another nail in the Coffin of why Grey Knight Paladins are useless. I think the game should have less S8+ AP2 large blast/lots of shots guns (I know I directly contradict that with the Rupture Cannon, but I think 2 or less shots high S/AP is OK, the problem is large blast/3+ shots)

I could be persuaded to go the other way, Str 6 AP 2 but up the range to 30" on the Large Blast.

wraithbalor wrote:I'd be fine with paying 25 or more points for the RC if it was AP2 and had the possible D hit. Makes it feel more Anti-Tank. OK, I'm used to dropping a T-fex in the backfield with a T-cyte, which mitigates their slowness and roasts Long Fangs/Dev squads alive now. Why I'm worried. More playtesting!.

Yah I need to play around with this some. Making it AP2 just makes it a super lascannon and it gets both too effective and less fluffy.

wraithbalor wrote:Except the Carni's and Flyrant don't need it much, as Force/ID is a fairly rare thing. It makes us stronger vs. Grey Knights. It's more of a benefit to Warriors/Shrikes/ Our T4/5 multiwound models as it protects us from that random Krak missile, but it does the same thing to a Wulfen squad or Flesh Hound squad. I still like it. I think my disagreement is something like my disagreement with the Maleceptor's power, and thats the unreliability of getting a WC2 power off (though this might just be me. I've failed WC2 powers on 8 dice multiple times).

See I face a lot more Eldar than Grey Knights and I'm sick of my MC's getting head-shot by Instant Death weapons.

wraithbalor wrote:Partially a feeling difference (i.e. he's emitting it constantly rather than one time), partially a blessing is harder to deny, and it will move with him if he charges/runs, and the opponent can get rid of it by killing the Psyker.

All good points, I'll change it.

wraithbalor wrote:I saw (after I wrote this) that the Venom Cannon Array is Assault 3, while the Barbed Strangler is Assault 1. Is that deliberate? You're right on cost. Even at 25 pts its still cheaper than it was.

That was a mistake, both the upgrades should be Assault 1. I also forgot to add Living ammunition to the Deathspitter Array.

wraithbalor wrote:Yeah, could do that. It's just that, at S2 AP-, its just about useless (needs a 5-6 to wound, then they have armor, and Pinning requires an unsaved wound to go through).

Good point. Maybe I'll just change it to a special rule that automatically causes a Pinning Test. I don't really want effective Flamers dotted throughout our Gant units, it just feels so unfluffy.

wraithbalor wrote:Except a 3 is what is needed to bring in reserves, assuming you have no penalties, so on a 1 you'll still get them in with 2+. You could add a line that "a roll of a 1 on the dice fails the reserve roll even when using this rule"

Haha I had always interpreted these rules to mean they modified your target number not your die roll (as in a plus 1 means going from a 3+ is a success to a 2+ is a success) but I 100% get what you mean now. Yah I'll reword it so a 1 is always a failure.

wraithbalor wrote:Yeah, 30 might work. Maybe make it a 4+ invul (like an Iron Halo) as well?

No, that would be fine on Tyranid Primes or Broodlords but would be close to abusive on a Flyrant (could never be forced to Jink), and if I made it expensive enough to be balanced on a Flyrant it would be too expensive to ever be worth taking on anything else.

wraithbalor wrote:The problem with including Deathleaper is that he is unique, and thus you can only ever have one of these formations. If we keep Deathleaper, I'd like it to be 1-6 broods, so you can bring more Lictors if you want.

That is a very good point, oops! I'll make it 0-1 Deathleapers and 3-5 Lictors.

wraithbalor wrote: - Pyrovore: His explosion should have Ignores Cover?

Yes it should, my bad.

wraithbalor wrote: - Gargoyles: Raised their cost because of the AP2 weapon? Might be good to have the bliding venom/plasma as options. Might make Blinding venom cause a blind test with a -1 to Init for every 2 additional hits?

Yah, it was pointed out to me that Str 4 AP2 on such a mobile platform was edging on OP so I upped the points. I'll think about letting them be a swap - 6pts base with the current Blinding Venom, and then a 2pt upgrade to swap for Bio Plasma.

wraithbalor wrote: - Hive Crone: One thought would be to add a clause to Seeking that lets them fire all 4 in a single phase (if they fire no other weapons).

That seems a bit too good, that basically auto-kills most Flyers unless they Jink.

wraithbalor wrote: - Mawloc: Maybe give him 1 set of ScyTals, to get the assault grenade benefit.

Objectively that makes him better but works counter to the spirit of trying to get him out of combat and burrowed again that Hit & Run implies.

wraithbalor wrote: - Spore Mine Launcher: Probably should clarify how many Spore Mines you get if you have a unit of more than 1 Biovore.

Each shot scatters independently since they are separate attacks, so each miss generates D3 spore mines. Judging by the fact that this came up on the actual-Dex FAQ as well it needs to be re-worded.

wraithbalor wrote: - Swarmy: Give him the Prehensile Pincer or Thresher Scythe tail benefit (I"m not sure which one his model has)?

Prehensile Pincer. He's pretty powerful already, does he need Precision Strikes as well? It does fit his fluff though...

wraithbalor wrote: - Royal Node: Possible upgrade - Defensive Advance"The Tyrant and his guard move into a defensive position for advancing up the field. If the Tyrant has joined the unit of Tyrant Guard, they may move up using a Defensive Advance. The unit gains the FNP (5+) rule, but moves as if in difficult terrain" based on an Apoc formation upgrade that is similar (the Apoc formation gives +1 to armor saves and Shrouded, but that might be too strong for normal 40k).

I'm sorry to say I dislike this idea, the Swarmlord/walking Tyrants are slow enough to begin with. FNP could work but I prefer not to hand FNP automatically to things that can very easily have a 2+ save. I'd rather the Tyrant Guard get "Overlapping Armour" or something and gain a 5+ Invul instead.

wraithbalor wrote: - Invasion swarm (or another formation): We should have a formation that gives similar rules to Endless Swarm (i.e. hormies/termies come back on a 4+) to give the feeling of an endless horde. Traitor's hate has something like that for Cultists, so it's not too overpowered, though we might want to say they come back with no upgrades, so you don't get recycling Dakkagants

We have a Warlord trait that allows this but a larger formation that requires a lot of tax units but gives you unending gribblies could be really fun and fluffy. Make it large enough that its not ever going to be used in a tournament but would be fun as all hell in an Apoc game.

wraithbalor wrote: - Aerial Predator Node: No need to allow beasts/cavalry, as they can't be pinned. Units that cannot go to ground cannot be pinned.

Good catch, thank you.

wraithbalor wrote: - Living Artillery Node: The Tyranid Prime can't take a Bio-cannon. Maybe rephrase it to "The Tyranid Prime may and must take a Basic Bio-Cannon" to make it clear that we are adding the ability for him to do so here?

Oh, I thought I'd given it to the tyranid Prime but I didn't. Which now that I am writing this makes sense since I was trying to build the unit out to be support/fighty. Yah, I'll just take the Tyranid Prime option out so its a Warrior Brood tax.

Tyran wrote:So how does this fandex deals with things like invisibility, rerolleable 2++ saves and grav spam?

The technical answer:

- Invisibility is best dealt with by giving yourself re-rolls to get those 6's, and I've given us a lot more options for Twin-Linked/Preferred Enemy and other re-rolls, in addition the Mawloc's Terror from the Deep can explicitly target Invisible units now. It's also going to be a lot harder to get off with the new Shadow in the Warp.

- 2++ re-rollable is best dealt with by D weapons which I've given us limited access too (Cataclysm and the Rupture Cannon), or just by weight of fire and with out cheaper models all around (and more importantly with making the smaller bugs useful again) we can drown and or tarpit deathstars.

- Grav spam dies pretty quickly to hordes of small critters with low armour saves, and we can pour those into people in spades. Grav Cents are going to hate the new Gargoyles since they only have that 6+ Armour but can choose to strike at Str 4 AP2 and can take huge squads for pretty cheap (or just Toxin-Sac Horms en masse).

The true answer:

Haven't given it much thought. The truly abusive lists are still going to be a bit of a problem but I'm not interested in writing a Codex that joins them. I want Tyranids to be better, so that they aren't relegated to the bottom tier forever, and I believe I've done that (with other peoples help). This Codex can now go toe-to-toe with a competitive (but not abusive) list from any army. I'm not interested in giving Nids any abusive combos of their own (and if someone finds one I made by accident I'm gonna nerf it real quick, haha).

Tyran wrote:Also like the normal codex, it seems to be quite screwed against melee walkers as only the Carnifex has decent melee anti-tank.

I don't think that's accurate, the changes to Crushing Claws buff a number of other units. Haruspex are now fast enough to engage on their terms, and hit much harder with 4 (5 on the charge) WS5 S8 AP1 attacks with Armourbane, which will chew through most Walkers. Tyrant Guard as well to a smaller degree, and both got cheaper. The Haruspex significantly so. Add in the Wrecker Node formation and I think we've come close to consigning all non-Knights to the scrap-heap. Even Knights I think we can handle on an even basis in my playtesting experience.


.

Quick note on one of Wraithbalor's comments, a roll of a 1 is always a failure so there's no automatic reserve rolls.

Also, I don't think having the Harpy fire all of it's missiles in a turn to be a bad thing. Being an MC it's limited to firing 2 weapons whilst Flyers can fire 4. For instance a Razorwing Jetfighter has 2 Disintegrator Cannons (S5, AP2, Heavy 3) and can be given a Splinter Cannon (S1, AP5, Salvo 4/6, Poisoned (4+)), on top of that it has 4 missiles (S6, AP5, Large Blast, One Use Only) which thanks to the FAQ can be fired at other flyers thanks to Skyfire and after firing the 4th weapon all other can be snap shot. For 145pts it can take down a Harpy or Hive Crone in a single round of shooting quite easily unless they Jink and the Razorwing is not one of the better flyers, I see no problem in being able to do the same in return.

Quick note on one of Wraithbalor's comments, a roll of a 1 is always a failure so there's no automatic reserve rolls.

This is incorrect. A 1 is only a failure on to-hit, to-wound, and saves (and FNP if using new FAQ). Nothing else auto-fails 1's. I.e. if you shoot a Rupture Cannon at the rear of a Rhino, a 1 is a Penetrating hit, not a failure.

Yes firing all 4 missiles in one turn is strong, but it's the same thing that any flier will do to it, for similar pricing. This changes the target priority for fliers when they first get on the board, so that the Crone is the priority rather than the Flyrant. Also remember that if your Crone is on the field to start (to flame some stuff) then the flyer will always get first shot. If not, then just about all flyer v. flyer combat tends to be he who shot first wins.

Royal Node: I like the Overlapping Armor idea.

For the tyrannofex: Good points, he is kinda expensive, especially with a pod. I've only taken him in pods vs. Eldar and Tau, where the AP4 murders things, so the AP3 might not be too powerful. I'd say leave it as is, and we'll playtest a while to see how it goes.

Exocrine: S6 AP2 30" range sounds great, more the way I'd want to run him.

Regarding the Norn Crown: we could always make a dual profile cost (like the Tau codex upgrades) where it's cheaper on an Infantry unit and more expensive on an MC, allowing more flexibility in pointing.

Respawning Gants formation: I doubt we'd ever see large numbers of gants in tournaments, even with a fairly cheap respawn formation, as they would be too many models to play within the time constraints. Something the size of Endless Swarm (or just adding it to the Invasion Swarm) wouldn't be too strong (gants are still not super strong, which is good), and serious tourney players still wouldn't bring it due to model count.

Alright, you both have convinced me that firing all four Tentaclids in one turn isn't going to break the Crone. I'll add that rule in.

Poor Harpy needs a bit of help still, I don't want to make it any cheaper, but it's still not doing quite enough in my opinion. It suffers from being a generalist. Its special rukes make it want to charge, its gun makes it want to be long ranged (and the H Venom is decent at targeting vehicles) but you want it dropping bombs as well. Its an awkward unit.

Make the special rule something that works like vector strike instead of charging, that way the Harpy keeps flying.

Any unit that takes an unsaved wound from a Harpy's Vector Strike gets -5I until its controlling player's next Movement Phase, perhaps?

Or simply by taking the hit, making it by wound makes it far less reliable.

Harpy: Make the initiative penalty part of the bomb profile, rather than him charging. Also make the bombs give assault grenades to anyone who charges them and/or Pinning check at penalty to do same thing plus no overwatch. Or give that/those to its stranglethorn/venom cannon.

I've always used Harpies as attempted Pinning and infantry targeting (the HVC was never really an option to me). If we gave it a rule where units it bombed and/or shot took a penalty to I (probably not 5) and units charging got assault grenades, he becomes an Anti-Infantry support flyer.

JesseS wrote:


The technical answer:

- Invisibility is best dealt with by giving yourself re-rolls to get those 6's, and I've given us a lot more options for Twin-Linked/Preferred Enemy and other re-rolls, in addition the Mawloc's Terror from the Deep can explicitly target Invisible units now. It's also going to be a lot harder to get off with the new Shadow in the Warp.

- 2++ re-rollable is best dealt with by D weapons which I've given us limited access too (Cataclysm and the Rupture Cannon), or just by weight of fire and with out cheaper models all around (and more importantly with making the smaller bugs useful again) we can drown and or tarpit deathstars.

- Grav spam dies pretty quickly to hordes of small critters with low armour saves, and we can pour those into people in spades. Grav Cents are going to hate the new Gargoyles since they only have that 6+ Armour but can choose to strike at Str 4 AP2 and can take huge squads for pretty cheap (or just Toxin-Sac Horms en masse).

The true answer:

Haven't given it much thought. The truly abusive lists are still going to be a bit of a problem but I'm not interested in writing a Codex that joins them. I want Tyranids to be better, so that they aren't relegated to the bottom tier forever, and I believe I've done that (with other peoples help). This Codex can now go toe-to-toe with a competitive (but not abusive) list from any army. I'm not interested in giving Nids any abusive combos of their own (and if someone finds one I made by accident I'm gonna nerf it real quick, haha).

Abusive list are competitive lists, there is no difference. But yeah I get what you mean.

I don't think that's accurate, the changes to Crushing Claws buff a number of other units. Haruspex are now fast enough to engage on their terms, and hit much harder with 4 (5 on the charge) WS5 S8 AP1 attacks with Armourbane, which will chew through most Walkers. Tyrant Guard as well to a smaller degree, and both got cheaper. The Haruspex significantly so. Add in the Wrecker Node formation and I think we've come close to consigning all non-Knights to the scrap-heap. Even Knights I think we can handle on an even basis in my playtesting experience.

The problem is the Trygons, walking Hive Tyrants and the Swarmlord, which are expensive melee units yet don't have good anti-tank.

The problem is the Trygons, walking Hive Tyrants and the Swarmlord, which are expensive melee units yet don't have good anti-tank.

I think that's Ok, as not all MC's should be good v. Walkers in CC. Anyone but swarmy can take Electroshock grubs, get d3 Haywire when charged, and smash it to death. Swarmy just needs to stay away, but he's a deathstar/tough infantry murderer. If you're worried about walkers with Swarmy, put him with a tyrant guard unit with CCs.

I would say there is a difference between being good and not being utterly screwed if it is locked with one in melee, and that such reliance on EG kinda makes it the best of the thorax options.

It's already pretty much the best: S5 AP5 makes it very effective against massed infantry also. Shreddershard Beetles aren't terrible, but Dessicator Larvae are weaksauce (most things you need Fleshbane on, you want some AP and/or multiple hits, and most of them are MC/GC anyway).

I think people are approaching the Harpy the wrong way by making it effect Initiative on the charge. It's load out of Spore Mine Cyst and Twin-Linked Stranglethorn Cannon means it's clearly loaded out for anti infantry bombing/shooting. How about making them Bomb 3 or something, so that it drops multiple spore mines on a target instead of 1.

How about giving Spore Mines Pinning as well, it would benefit Biovores nicely as well?

Sonic Screech: When the Harpy makes a bombing run with it's Spore Mine Cysts, or performs a Vector Strike, the target unit must take a Pinning Test with a -1 penalty to its Leadership.

Opinions?

I prefer the initiative effect instead of pinning.

Sonic Screech: When the Harpy makes a bombing run with it's Spore Mine Cysts, or performs a Vector Strike, the target unit suffers a -5 modifier to its Initiative (to a minimum of 1).

Feedback from Game:

Played a game versus Necrons with 1.4 and some modifications. Ran a Hive Minds Fury detachment with

1 Royal Node
- Swarmy
- 3x Tyrant Guard (added a 20 pt upgrade to 2+ armor)

1 Genestealer Infestation
- Broodlord w. Ymgarl, Fleshhooks and ScyTals (forgot about Ymgarl most of the game)
- 2x Broods of Genestealers, no upgrades
(we might want to increase the minimums for some of the Core formations, as ours are by far the smallest, I think)

1 Synapse Complex
- Malaceptor (rolled on Adaption)
- 1 brood 3 Zoans with Neuro upgrade

1 Guard Node
- 2 units of Single Hive Guard
- 3 warriors, Extended Carapace, Venom Cannon
- 1 Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon (modified D table to roll a 6, 3 wounds/HP no saves, also made it 25 points and AP2)

He had a Monolith, 2 units of Immortals with Tesla, 2 units of destroyers with Gauss and the S9 AP2 gun on the lord, 3 units of Swarms, and the Necron CC warrior guys with an HQ CC guy, and 6 Deathmarks who did 1 wound to a Hive Guard when they came in.

Swarmy ate everything he touched (both immortal units, one destroyer unit, and a swarm unit), with wounds being passed around on him and the guard so that none were killed. His CC guys charged the Zoans and murdered them (though Zoan headbutt killed one hehe) and the swarms ate the maleceptor. We played the Maelstrom game where you hide the cards, and I ended up winning by a couple points due to some good draws on the last two turns, though he was just about out of units (one destroyer unit, 3 deathmarks, and his HQ with one CC guy left) with Swarmy in hot pursuit of his HQ. His opinion was run charge was good but not overpowered, the D shot from the Tyrannofex was annoying but nothing special, and overall he had fun and didnt' think it was unbalanced or unfun. It should be noted this was his first game with his Necrons.

For the Harpy: If we do the initiative penalty on the bomb/vector strike, we should make it a -2 or -3 modifier, and counts as assault grenades (there are several other codexs with weapons that do that. I think Spore Mines in general could use that, as it'd make them have more reason to be used against MEQs/TEQs).

Imateria wrote:How about giving Spore Mines Pinning as well, it would benefit Biovores nicely as well?

Yah I'll add Pinning to Spore Mine Clusters, Spore Mine Launcher and the Spore Mine Cysts for v1.5. Between gaining Stealth when in Synpase range, Pinning, and Symbiotic Targeting I think Biovores might need to go up to 45ppm.

Tyran wrote:I prefer the initiative effect instead of pinning.

Sonic Screech: When the Harpy makes a bombing run with it's Spore Mine Cysts, or performs a Vector Strike, the target unit suffers a -5 modifier to its Initiative (to a minimum of 1).

It will have to be less than -5, it's MUCH easier to Vector Strike than it is to Bomb. I'm thinking -2. That makes MEQs strike after even our Monstrous Creatures which are predominantly I3.

EDIT: Derp, I meant to say it's much easier to Vector Strike than to CHARGE. You don't need to land and waste a turn in Glide Mode to get it off now so I think the full -5 might be a bit too punishing.

wraithbalor wrote:Played a game versus Necrons with 1.4 and some modifications.

His opinion was run charge was good but not overpowered, the D shot from the Tyrannofex was annoying but nothing special, and overall he had fun and didnt' think it was unbalanced or unfun. It should be noted this was his first game with his Necrons.

Glad that the both of you had fun! Thanks for playing a game with it.

I'm thinking of upping the Genestealer Infestation to:

1-3 Broodlords
3-6 Genestealer Broods
1-3 Lictors.

The Spawning Swarm to:
1-2 Tervigons
3-9 Termagant Broods
1-3 Ripper Swarms.

And leaving the Invasion Swarm as is, it already has a 3 unit Gant/Guant tax and a Ripper Swarm tax.

Also: v1.5 will have an expanded Credits section where I would like to include playtesters and people who have helped, so if everyone who has participated in this thread could let me know how they want to be credited (either forum name or I'll need your real name, your choice) I would appreciate it! (Warithbalor that includes your friend who helped you playtest)

Vector Strike and Bombing Runs both have the same requirement, fly over something in the Movement Phase so I'd say they were both pretty easy to pull off. I know in this case I'd much rather have multiple Large Blasts dropping on a unit, especially since they only scatter D6" instead of the usual 2D6, than the Vector Strike, which would be a single hit at S5.

I don't need to be credited, but if you want to just use my forum name.

 Imateria wrote:
Vector Strike and Bombing Runs both have the same requirement, fly over something in the Movement Phase so I'd say they were both pretty easy to pull off. I know in this case I'd much rather have multiple Large Blasts dropping on a unit, especially since they only scatter D6" instead of the usual 2D6, than the Vector Strike, which would be a single hit at S5.

I don't need to be credited, but if you want to just use my forum name.

Ugh, that was a stupid typo I meant its much easier to Vector Strike than, Charge haha. I'll go back and edit the previous post.

JesseS wrote:


It will have to be less than -5, it's MUCH easier to Vector Strike than it is to Bomb. I'm thinking -2. That makes MEQs strike after even our Monstrous Creatures which are predominantly I3.

Eh... back then in 6th ed you didn't need to wait for charging, so it was very easy to charge.

Also thinking about initiative, what do you think of changing the adrenal glands so instead of giving fleet they gave +1 to initiative? I simply don't like how Adrenal Glands have a 5 pt tax on things that already have fleet.

And there seems to be a lack of ground to air Skyfire weapons.

In the Old One Eye's Alpha Leader rule there is a reference to Instinctive Behavior tests which aren't a thing under this rules.

Also the Defensive Array rule is badly written.

And how does the Expendable rule works with normal LOS rolls? do you chose which one to use or you must use the one for the closest model?

Also does the Ymgarl Factor is supposed to replace a pair of scything talons? because that is how it is written.

And does the brood sac +5 roll is per wound or per attack? If the tervigon suffers multiple wounds it needs to roll multiple dices?

And no extended carapace option for termagants and gargoyles?

Is there a limit to the amount of damage rippers can do to vehicles? Because 2 successful sacrifices will wreck most vehicles (3 hp worth of damage).

And those upgrades on the rippers seem quite expensive.

Also change the Neurothrope rule because as far as I'm aware there isn't a Regeneration special rule.

And why does the devourer and the deathspitter cost the same on the Raveners?

Also not sure why you changed the Mucolid's Skyblast special rule with skyfire as IIRC blast don't work with Skyfire.

And a typo: the Harpy's spore mine cyst profile has shred, while the other profile in the weapon section, and both profiles of the spore mine launcher lack it.

And change the spore burst wording to clarify how many spore mines are spawned when there are multiple blasts in the barrage.

All the adaptation powers lack range, I suggest you fix that.

Also the Paroxism power says "Roll once and apply the result to all characteristics.", but you changed the power so it is always 3.

Also the venom cannon array not only should be blast 1, but also should have twin-linked like the rest of the arrays.

Also on Hive Commander it makes no sense to have scout or outflank, as scout comes with outflank,

And why not give the Swarmlord something for assaulting through terrain? for example spine banks.

And for Cataclysm, the D3 wounds suffered make it very expensive to cast in addition to the WC 3 cost.

And any reason for the Tyranid Warriors and Tyranid shrikes having different disciplines?

deleted.

Tyran wrote:


Also not sure why you changed the Mucolid's Skyblast special rule with skyfire as IIRC blast don't work with Skyfire.

As of the FAQ they do.

Another typo: in the wargear lists, the basic bio-cannons are listed as basic bio-weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imateria wrote:

Tyran wrote:


Also not sure why you changed the Mucolid's Skyblast special rule with skyfire as IIRC blast don't work with Skyfire.

As of the FAQ they do.

Wasn't it only against Flying Monstrous Creatures? or also flyers?

How many points per model does everyone think would be worth an Endless Swarm rule on the Expendable units (Gants, Gaunts, Rippers and Gargoyles)?

Endless Swarm: When this unit is entirely removed from play roll a D6. On a failure the unit is removed from the game as normal. On a success the unit is instead placed into Ongoing Reserves with all of it's models and upgrades restored. The target number for a success is determined by the game turn:

Game Turn 1: 2+
Game Turn 2: 3+
Game Turn 3: 4+
Game Turn 4: 5+
Game Turn 5 and later: 6+

Tyran wrote:Also thinking about initiative, what do you think of changing the adrenal glands so instead of giving fleet they gave +1 to initiative? I simply don't like how Adrenal Glands have a 5 pt tax on things that already have fleet.

That's much less useful. On a Hormagaunt, Hive Tyrant, and Trygon Prime it basically only helps out against Eldar, whereas Fleet helps out nearly everything significantly more.

Tyran wrote:And there seems to be a lack of ground to air Skyfire weapons.

We have some of the deadliest AA Flyers in the game (Harpy has a Str 9 Blast, the Hive Crone and Devourer Flyrant). Plus the Mucolid Spore can hit Flyers (which its unlikely to do but its very good for controlling parts of the board). I'm not sure we need any ground based AA. But I do like options so I''ll add an AA spore upgrade Biovores can purchase.

Tyran wrote:In the Old One Eye's Alpha Leader rule there is a reference to Instinctive Behavior tests which aren't a thing under this rules.

Removed.

Tyran wrote:Also the Defensive Array rule is badly written.

Yah it needs to be reworded.

Tyran wrote:And how does the Expendable rule works with normal LOS rolls? do you chose which one to use or you must use the one for the closest model?

You chose which model you want within 6", the same as normal LOS rolls, the only things that change are the target number (5+) and the within the unit restriction.

Tyran wrote:Also does the Ymgarl Factor is supposed to replace a pair of scything talons? because that is how it is written.

Fixed.

Tyran wrote:And does the brood sac +5 roll is per wound or per attack? If the tervigon suffers multiple wounds it needs to roll multiple dices?

Per Wound, if it suffers multiple Wounds it makes multiple rolls.

Tyran wrote:And no extended carapace option for termagants and gargoyles?

Didn't think anyone would ever purchase them. I can add it.

Tyran wrote:Is there a limit to the amount of damage rippers can do to vehicles? Because 2 successful sacrifices will wreck most vehicles (3 hp worth of damage).

It's "one or more successes" so it doesn't take multiple hits, the intention was that it only suffers the Immobilized result and loses a single hull point, not two. I will clarify and point out that you can't target already immobvilized vehicles.

Tyran wrote:And those upgrades on the rippers seem quite expensive.

Reduced Spinefists by 1ppm, I think the others are fair based on how many attacks Rippers get.

Tyran wrote:Also change the Neurothrope rule because as far as I'm aware there isn't a Regeneration special rule.

It's in the biomorphs section, I'll reword.

Tyran wrote:And why does the devourer and the deathspitter cost the same on the Raveners?

Fixed.

Tyran wrote:Also not sure why you changed the Mucolid's Skyblast special rule with skyfire as IIRC blast don't work with Skyfire.

You do not remember correctly , Blasts work with Skyfire so long as the weapon has Skyfire. The ITC ruled differently because they are bad at rules reading but GW clarified it in the recent FAQs.

Tyran wrote:And a typo: the Harpy's spore mine cyst profile has shred, while the other profile in the weapon section, and both profiles of the spore mine launcher lack it.

Typo, all of them should have it. Fixed.

Tyran wrote:And change the spore burst wording to clarify how many spore mines are spawned when there are multiple blasts in the barrage.

Common misconception, you PLACE the Blast Markers using the rules for Multiple Barrages but you still resolve each Spore Burst rule separately so if you have 3 Biovores firing all 3 could Hit, all 3 could miss, or a mixture (1 Hit 2 misses resulting in two units of D3 Spore Mines). GW clarified this in the last FAQ but I'll add wording to make it more obvious.

Tyran wrote:All the adaptation powers lack range, I suggest you fix that.

Haha, oops, added 12" to all.

Tyran wrote:Also the Paroxism power says "Roll once and apply the result to all characteristics.", but you changed the power so it is always 3.

Oops, fixed.

Tyran wrote:Also the venom cannon array not only should be blast 1, but also should have twin-linked like the rest of the arrays.

Fixed.

Tyran wrote:Also on Hive Commander it makes no sense to have scout or outflank, as scout comes with outflank,

Fixed.

Tyran wrote:And why not give the Swarmlord something for assaulting through terrain? for example spine banks.

I think he's probably good enough as is, haha. Not saying it wouldn't be nice but he already hits like a brick gak.

Tyran wrote:And for Cataclysm, the D3 wounds suffered make it very expensive to cast in addition to the WC 3 cost.

Reduced to 1 Wound.

Tyran wrote:And any reason for the Tyranid Warriors and Tyranid shrikes having different disciplines?

For diversity and fun. Gives them slightly different roles on the table.

I understand where the units suffering from instinctive behavior are not considered scoring units comes from, but for the sake of playing devils advocate I want to point out some problems with it.

1) Non scoring units do not count for points when killed.

This can be exploited by the Tyranid player by having no synapse in kill point games. A good example of this being the case is spore mines. They are non scoring units and as such cannot hold objectives and do not count as units destroyed when adding score at the end of a game. The entire army can be made this way.


2) Without Synapse a Tyranid player needs to table the enemy.

In particular in non kill point games if synapse is just broken the Nids only option becomes to table the opposing force. There is just no way for them to effect the game otherwise.


3) Non-unilateral effect based on game type.

This would be the only army in the game who's core army rules effect different game types to either be an advantage or disadvantage over the opponent. It's just inherent in the ability of building a 100% non scoring army and the effect of the army becoming non scoring as you play.

These are mostly examples of this rule being taken to extremes but I think it's worth noting that these extremes are what this rule being this way allows.



Additionally, I think the various spore mine type units should not be selectable units to fill FoC slots. I think other things that generate spore mines should have the option to purchase units of spore mines with them. Biovores, Harpys, Sporescyts... These things should allow you to take units of spores as part of your army list. But units that cheap with that little of an actual effect only ever become a way to pay a cheap tax for better units if you allow them to fill FoC slots.

JesseS wrote:
[

That's much less useful. On a Hormagaunt, Hive Tyrant, and Trygon Prime it basically only helps out against Eldar, whereas Fleet helps out nearly everything significantly more.

Fleet is even less useful on 2 of those 3 models, as Hormagaunts and Trygons already have Fleet.

You chose which model you want within 6", the same as normal LOS rolls, the only things that change are the target number (5+) and the within the unit restriction.

LOS tell you to allocate to the closest model. I mean, what if a Hive Tyrant in a Tyrant Guard Brood is withing 6" of a Termagant brood? can it chose where to allocate the wound (to the Termagants or to the TGs)? or does it need to allocate it to the closest model?

It's "one or more successes" so it doesn't take multiple hits, the intention was that it only suffers the Immobilized result and loses a single hull point, not two. I will clarify and point out that you can't target already immobvilized vehicles.

What about superheavies that can't be immobilized? I imagine that rippers would have no effect.

And don't forget about the "basic bio-cannons" mistake on the wargear lists.

And a typo in the Genestealer special rule, the word "terrain" is badly written as "terrian".

Also some special rules don't have their description in some entries. The most obvious one is Ravenous Advance which only has its description in the Haruspex and the general special rule sections, but it is shared by many units. But other one is psychic barrier, which only appears on the Maleceptor although the Swarmlord also has it.

And in some occasions, like in OOE, the special rule is repeated twice in the entry as it appears in both the special rule list and its description.

Lance wrote:I understand where the units suffering from instinctive behavior are not considered scoring units comes from, but for the sake of playing devils advocate I want to point out some problems with it.

1) Non scoring units do not count for points when killed.

This can be exploited by the Tyranid player by having no synapse in kill point games. A good example of this being the case is spore mines. They are non scoring units and as such cannot hold objectives and do not count as units destroyed when adding score at the end of a game. The entire army can be made this way.

I'm pretty certain this is inaccurate. Non-scoring units still give up Kill Points. There is no clause that says non-scoring units cannot give up Kill Points that I can find, they simply can't hold Objectives. Spore Mines don't give up KP, but their rules explicitly exempt them from doing so. It's not a feature of the core rules.

Lance wrote:2) Without Synapse a Tyranid player needs to table the enemy.

In particular in non kill point games if synapse is just broken the Nids only option becomes to table the opposing force. There is just no way for them to effect the game otherwise.

I'm actually ok with this as it reinforces how necessary Synapse is to the army. It's also not entirely accurate: Genestealer Broods, Lictors, and a few other vanguard organisms don't need Synapse so including a few of them is a good idea for an army.

Lance wrote:3) Non-unilateral effect based on game type.

This would be the only army in the game who's core army rules effect different game types to either be an advantage or disadvantage over the opponent. It's just inherent in the ability of building a 100% non scoring army and the effect of the army becoming non scoring as you play.

I'm not sure this is as extreme as you make it out to be (and obviously you are playing Devil's Advocate so we are playing "worst-case scenario" here). However even it it's as bad as you say I'm not sure it's any worse then the imbalance in certain missions that other Factions have. A solid Imperial Knight army has a ridiculous advantage in Kill Point games (especially low level ones, at 1500 points you can have an army that has only 2 Kill Points to give up (3 Knights means 2 real KP, because if you kill the 3rd Knight you've tabled them anyways and KP no longer matter).

Lance wrote:Additionally, I think the various spore mine type units should not be selectable units to fill FoC slots. I think other things that generate spore mines should have the option to purchase units of spore mines with them. Biovores, Harpys, Sporescyts... These things should allow you to take units of spores as part of your army list. But units that cheap with that little of an actual effect only ever become a way to pay a cheap tax for better units if you allow them to fill FoC slots.

I see your point, and I do think it's a good reason to move Mucolids out of the Troops section, but there are lots of times I want to take Spores on their own - making a fluffy invasion list, I have 15 extra points and don't feel like taking 3 more Gants/Gaunts to fill it, I'm playing a shooty list and I want to slow down enemy close combat units by flooding the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyran wrote:Fleet is even less useful on 2 of those 3 models, as Hormagaunts and Trygons already have Fleet.

Yes but its AMAZINGLY useful on Carnifex, Haruspex, Warriors, Hive Tyrants, Shrikes, Gargoyles, Tyrant Guard. I don't think the benefits of Fleet are worth losing for +1 Initiative, besides it only effects Trygon's, if Hormagaunts had...

Wait, why are we arguing this when we can have both, hahaha!

Adrenal Glands: A model with Adrenal Glands has the Furious Charge and Fleet special rules. If the model already possess Fleet as part of it's standard profile it instead gains Furious Charge and +1 Initiative.

Tyran wrote:LOS tell you to allocate to the closest model. I mean, what if a Hive Tyrant in a Tyrant Guard Brood is withing 6" of a Termagant brood? can it chose where to allocate the wound (to the Termagants or to the TGs)? or does it need to allocate it to the closest model?

Good point, I will work on the wording.

Tyran wrote:It's "one or more successes" so it doesn't take multiple hits, the intention was that it only suffers the Immobilized result and loses a single hull point, not two. I will clarify and point out that you can't target already immobvilized vehicles.

I will exempt Super-Heavies (too large, the Rippers just act as lubricant at that point) and Walkers from "They're Everywhere", as I think most Walkers have enough problems as is.

Tyran wrote:And don't forget about the "basic bio-cannons" mistake on the wargear lists.

And a typo in the Genestealer special rule, the word "terrain" is badly written as "terrian".

Also some special rules don't have their description in some entries. The most obvious one is Ravenous Advance which only has its description in the Haruspex and the general special rule sections, but it is shared by many units. But other one is psychic barrier, which only appears on the Maleceptor although the Swarmlord also has it.

And in some occasions, like in OOE, the special rule is repeated twice in the entry as it appears in both the special rule list and its description.

Fixed for v1.5, which should be up next weekend, I want to get in a few more playtest games. Also if you want to play a playtest game and send me a brief after-action report I would super appreciate it.

Why would it be less fluffy to purchase a harpy or spore cyst with an option to buy 1-2 units of spore mines with it? You avoid the pit falls of the spore mines basically crap unit while allowing them to show up in mass numbers if the nid player so chooses. It also means you dont have to sacrifice valuable foc slots for "real" units in order to take them.

 Lance845 wrote:
Why would it be less fluffy to purchase a harpy or spore cyst with an option to buy 1-2 units of spore mines with it? You avoid the pit falls of the spore mines basically crap unit while allowing them to show up in mass numbers if the nid player so chooses. It also means you dont have to sacrifice valuable foc slots for "real" units in order to take them.

I guess I'm just not a fan of tax units outside formations. They get difficult in small sized games (at 1,000 pts I might not want to take that harpy and Biovores don't fit my Genestealer infestation list). I don't necessarily see why Spore Mine Clusters need to take up an FOC at all, you should just be able to take as many as you want (the same as Tyrannocytes have now). Mucolids I'm not sure of, they are much stronger and have an AA capability that inclines me to think they need to take up a slot.

Then make regular spore mines like you say. No FoC slot just purchase like Tyrannocytes.

Make Mucolids purchase-able with sporecysts. I.E. Buy a sporecyste and you may purchase 1-2 units of mucolids to deploy at the beginning of the game.

I get that they have uses but I have never seen anyone take mucolids to do anything but get more Flyrants with as cheap a tax as possible, so I cannot imagine why anyone would take them in a better balanced codex when they eat a FoC slot that could be used for something that doesn't just die when it attacks,

To go one step further, I have always felt like Sporecysts should really be a fortification for Tyranids where you can purchase 1-3 per FoC slot.

Oh, and I am not a fan of tax units at all. It's nonsense. Formations themselves may be the current state of the game but I think they are also one of the worst parts of it. Formations and Decurions are the "Cancer killing 40k". Just bloat and nonsense that further restricts lists into predetermined builds instead of opening them up.

Does the Broodlord needs to buy scything talons to exchange them for the bio-artefact weapons?

Tyran wrote:
Does the Broodlord needs to buy scything talons to exchange them for the bio-artefact weapons?

Currently yes. It does create a bit of a tax on him but if you are buying him a Bio-Artefact weapon you probably want the +1 Atk anyways to make him a real monster in CC. A Broodlord with the Reaper is a BEAST in close combat.


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I played him in a game the other day with ScyTals+Flesh Hooks+Extended Carapace+Adrenal Glands+Old Adversary+Reaper of Obliterax. It came to 175pts but he tore through full squads on his own (played it with just normal Life drain instead of straight Instant Death, that was too good).

Still, on the charge he had 6 WS7 S7 I7 AP2 attacks on the charge, with Preferred Enemy and Shred, and with Infiltrate and a 10 strong squad of Stealers he was APPALLING in CC.

Also, Hypertoxic rule lacks a reference "To Wound roll".

Good catch, are you an editor in your day job by any chance?

No, simply I'm slowly coping it into a Battlescribe catalog.

Also, you changed the Spore Mine's rule to Floating Bomb, but the Mucolid still references the original "Floating Death".

And in the Spore Mine Cysts' profile, it has assault 1 and bomb, but the correct notation would be only "bomb 1".

And in the wargear list, you may want to specify that a model only can have one bio-artefact.

Also in "Gargoyle Plasma", gargoyle is mispronounced in the description.

And the Fleshborer lacks the living ammunition rule.

And Spinefists' hosted rule lacks a reference to the bearer.

And a big mistake in Living Artillery Node's restrictions: a Tyranid Prime doesn't has access to basic bio-cannons.

I just realized that I never answered you about the Endless Swarm rule.

If we make it a feature of the unit, rather than a formation, probably 2 pts a model would be fine (gaunts aren't that scary). Though I'd rather see it as Turn 1-2: 3+, Turn 3-4: 4+, Turn 5+: 5+. I'd probably rather see it as a formation benefit on something that requires quite a few of them.

Well, Tau still hardcounters us. To much dakka.

wraithbalor wrote:
I just realized that I never answered you about the Endless Swarm rule.

If we make it a feature of the unit, rather than a formation, probably 2 pts a model would be fine (gaunts aren't that scary). Though I'd rather see it as Turn 1-2: 3+, Turn 3-4: 4+, Turn 5+: 5+. I'd probably rather see it as a formation benefit on something that requires quite a few of them.

In my group we use Endless Swarm rule as an upgrade for 2pts and as an automatic return (without roll needed). It gets really usefull on Beast Hormagaunts or Devourer Termagaunts, and IMHO it is the best variant, as it really feels like it should - an Endless Swarm of expendable drones. And I write this as the opposing player, not a Nid player. [but one important note - we use this with "normal" Synapse rule, not a "buff variant" developed in this thread]. And especially with Maelstrom missions, this creates an urge to gain a lot of VPs in early turns in true "against the clock" "hit and run" manner to preserve your forces, because Tyranid player typically outnumbers his foe in later turns, as it should feel when facing true-to-fluff Hive Fleet forces.

Version 1.5 is up! GoogleDrive link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_Xe1GB9HM88ZG5PM0xEcVJQU1U

New version notes:

- Broodlord given a Psychic Beacon rule that allows them to function like Lictors do in the real Codex.
- Tervigon rules balanced better (less punishing when a Tervi dies but AP1 weapons cause the Brood Sac to rupture on a 3 or lower instead of a 2 or lower.
- Harpy's Sonic screech reduced to -2 but now affects units when Vector Striking or making a Bombing Run so no need to land it any more.
- Toxicrene given Ravenous Advance.
- All units with the Expendable rule can now purchase the Endless Swarm biomorph.
- Multiple formatting and layout improvements.
- Some points adjustments.
- Warriors and Shrikes reduced back to 2 Wounds a model.
- Multiple typo's fixed.

Tyran wrote:Well, Tau still hardcounters us. To much dakka.

I would love a more detailed battle report of your game vs Tau if you are willing to write it up, it would be VERY helpful for improving the FanDex.

JesseS wrote:

I would love a more detailed battle report of your game vs Tau if you are willing to write it up, it would be VERY helpful for improving the FanDex.

I didn't make a battle report, but it essentially was the Tau picking the nids apart each turn. First turn the Tau nuked the Swarmlord (and guards), and in the second one they annihilated one Tervigon and a Haruspex.

The problem IMHO is that we simply lack the range and firepower to damage the Tau while they hit us from afar, the most scary unit being a Crisis unit with 4 missiles each and a buffmaned,32 twin-linked S7 shoots with Monster Hunter deal absurd damage even when having to get through 2+ armor.

I have been thinking that a full deepstrike army could work, specially as spawned termagants can charge the turn the tervigon drops, or going full hormagaunt + gargoyle spam, but walking across the board is suicide.

Also, could you please upload the PDF version?

PDF should be up there at the link (there was also the .ai template for the datasheets so others could use it, maybe you downloaded that by accident?).

Yah, I don't think we'll ever be able to equal Tau walking across the board, our shooting just shouldn't be their equal. Making use of our alternate deployment options against them really shines in my experience though. A Mawloc or two, a Tyrannofex with Acid Spray in a Tyrannocyte, even the Swarmlord in a Tyrannocyte to go along with them. 20 Devilgants outflanking. Anything that can put the hurt on the moment it comes down and deny them their shooting advantage. Beta strike for the win.

Curious, it seems I can't download the same thing twice.

I had to change account to download the new version.


Does anyone knows how google drive works?

Little bit of typos found so far (cursory-ish glance)

The bio-plasmic cannon has an 18" S8 AP2 Large blast on the Exocrine's page, but a 30" S6 AP Large blast in the weapons section.

Why'd you change E-shock grubs to S3 AP-?

For the Rupture cannon: maybe change it to "both attacks hit against a vehicle, monstrous creature, gargantuan creature, or superheavy vehicle"? That way you don't end up changing two S10 hits to SD versus a target where 2 hits is better than a S hit? Such as TWC or Necron Destroyers.

Skyburst spores: Probably should just make them S7 AP4, like flak missiles?

I'll take a better look tomorrow.

Thanks for all your hard work!

wraithbalor wrote:The bio-plasmic cannon has an 18" S8 AP2 Large blast on the Exocrine's page, but a 30" S6 AP Large blast in the weapons section.

Whoops, I'll fix that right now.

wraithbalor wrote:Why'd you change E-shock grubs to S3 AP-?

It was pointed out that EGrubs are objectively the best choice, at S5 AP5 they are just better than Dessicator Larvae in every way, and probably better than Shreddershard Beetles. So I tried to make them each good at a different job: DL hunt low save Infantry, being as equally good on Grotesques as they are on Guardsmen. SB hunt good saves, with Rending and Shred the low Strength is actually better as you get more re-rolls to get more chances at Rending. EG hunt Vehicles, especially squadrons. It is a nerf to EGrubs but I think it makes the army better.

wraithbalor wrote:For the Rupture cannon: maybe change it to "both attacks hit against a vehicle, monstrous creature, gargantuan creature, or superheavy vehicle"? That way you don't end up changing two S10 hits to SD versus a target where 2 hits is better than a S hit? Such as TWC or Necron Destroyers.

We have better things to hunt Necron Destroyers now and wouldn't you rather have the SD on TWC since they so often rock Stormshields?

wraithbalor wrote:Skyburst spores: Probably should just make them S7 AP4, like flak missiles?

Flakk Missiles are only Heavy 1, ours are Assault 2, staying in line with Tyranids "more is more" philosophy. With a 36" range you don't need to move them often so a 3 model squad is getting 6 shots at BS4 (with Preferred Enemy if in Synapse Range) for 180pts, which is pretty devastating against Orks, Eldar and Dark Eldar planes, and pretty reasonable against Necrons and SM.

wraithbalor wrote:Thanks for all your hard work!

No worries, it's been a LOT of fun for me.

The way it is worded right now, 2 ripper bases can inflict 3 hull points on a vehicle.
Stopping a vehicle is nice and fluffy, but wrecking it this easily could be a bit too much

Can't see the PDF version on your link.

Also I don't like your decision of dropping warriors and shrikes to 2 wounds but keeping the same cost.

There's some interesting stuff in there, but also some strange choices. Warriors as psykers? Zero fluff justifaction for that.

Genestealers with 3A, HaR and Stealth base, and a 4th attack base for 2 points? That's ridiculously strong. Combined with the GS formation, you could easily put 60-100 Genestealers in the opponent's face, against which there is little they could do to stop them. Going to ground with stealth and shrouding is a straight 3+ cover in open ground. Fly up a flyrant and they immediately stand up because they become fearless. That would legitimately force the meta to adopt more flamers/ignores cover small arms as right now most armies couldn't deal with that outside of deathstar and Superheavies (Although they could die to glances from GS).

Tyrant Guard at 3W is also ridiculously strong. That's ~16 points per 6T 3+ wound.

Carnifex at 90pts is super strong.

Warrior strain models at 2W with no EW base is a massive nerf.

As someone who is also working on a Tyranid fandex, here's my input. Identify what you want to do with the book. Do you want to take the current style of Tyranids and make the bad units more playable? Do you want to give the book as a whole competitive builds?

If either of those are true, then I would suggest less major changes (Adding/removing rules) and more points tweeks. Warriors at 22-25 points are actually fairly attractive units. They are roughly as durable as terminators vs small arms, per base, so making them almost half the cost makes them much more attractive as a whole. Gaunts and Hormagants base are great at their job, that is, being meatshields. The issue is upgrading them to do damage makes them too expensive, so increasing the power of their upgrades or decreasing the cost is a solution. For example, the drop to 8ppm for devourers got people interested in drop pod Termagants, but then the pods were too expensive and it was shelved. If pods were ~40 points, I imagine you would see that unit more often.

If your goal is to make the book more interesting, then you've got to identify what people want. That, of course, is always customization. People love being able to build unique and interesting models/units that fit their idea of what the unit should be/do. This codex has made options slightly more attractive, but, as a whole, it's basically the same old stuff with more powers.

Consider looking at the 3rd/4th edition codex for how Tyranid options were handled. While lacking some internal cost balance, those codices had a LOT going for them as far as options were concerned.

There's definitely some good ideas in here, but you've gone way too far with some stuff, and not nearly far enough with other stuff.

If you're interested, I'd love to collaborate with you. Your layout is beautiful, you've done a great job getting the book together. Shoot me a PM, we could work together on this.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Genestealers with 3A, HaR and Stealth base, and a 4th attack base for 2 points? That's ridiculously strong. Combined with the GS formation, you could easily put 60-100 Genestealers in the opponent's face, against which there is little they could do to stop them. Going to ground with stealth and shrouding is a straight 3+ cover in open ground. Fly up a flyrant and they immediately stand up because they become fearless. That would legitimately force the meta to adopt more flamers/ignores cover small arms as right now most armies couldn't deal with that outside of deathstar and Superheavies (Although they could die to glances from GS).

Oh please Necron Flayed Ones are far stronger than that for cheaper and yet they hadn't forced a meta change.

Tyrant Guard at 3W is also ridiculously strong. That's ~16 points per 6T 3+ wound.

Which is the same as Necron Spiders, hardly game changing.

Carnifex at 90pts is super strong.

I fail to see how a slow t6 w4 sv3+ unit with no ranged attack is super strong.

Spoletta wrote:The way it is worded right now, 2 ripper bases can inflict 3 hull points on a vehicle.
Stopping a vehicle is nice and fluffy, but wrecking it this easily could be a bit too much

The "one or more" clause makes it so that you only get the result once, regardless of how many extra successes you get but to avoid confusion I'll re-write it. Is this clearer?

"They're everywhere!": Ripper Swarms are the least of the Tyranid organisms in stature, but the greatest in number. Even more than other creatures of the swarm they are completely expendable, hurling themselves into the engines, wheels, treads, or other mobility tools of the vehicle, sacrificing themselves to jam them.

Ripper Swarms may charge non-immobilized vehicles they cannot otherwise hurt, excluding Walkers and Super-Heavy Vehicles. Instead of making attacks choose a number of Ripper Swarm bases to sacrifice. They are immediately removed from play as a casualty, with no saves of any kind.

Roll a number of dice equal to the number of bases sacrificed. If one or more 4's or higher are rolled the vehicle immediately suffers one Immobilized result, and loses a single Hull Point, regardless of how many additional successes are achieved.

Ripper Swarms with the Wings biomorph may charge Flyers, even though models are not normally allowed to do so, and attempt to immobilize them in the same way, but require one or more rolls of 5+ instead of 4+.

Imateria wrote:Can't see the PDF version on your link.

I re-uploaded a new version of the file, is it working for you now?

Tyran wrote:Also I don't like your decision of dropping warriors and shrikes to 2 wounds but keeping the same cost.

I know, but they got massive buffs... I dunno, I think I'll make them T5.


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Traceoftoxin wrote:There's some interesting stuff in there, but also some strange choices. Warriors as psykers? Zero fluff justifaction for that.

I made all Synapse creatures Psykers, also I disagree on no fluff justification - all Tyranids derive their psychic powers from their link to the Hive Mind, and all Synapse Creatures have a direct link. Warriors just have a much weaker one compared to Hive Tyrant's.

Traceoftoxin wrote:Genestealers with 3A, HaR and Stealth base, and a 4th attack base for 2 points? That's ridiculously strong. Combined with the GS formation, you could easily put 60-100 Genestealers in the opponent's face, against which there is little they could do to stop them. Going to ground with stealth and shrouding is a straight 3+ cover in open ground. Fly up a flyrant and they immediately stand up because they become fearless. That would legitimately force the meta to adopt more flamers/ignores cover small arms as right now most armies couldn't deal with that outside of deathstar and Superheavies (Although they could die to glances from GS).

That list would be crazy fun, but would be the ultimate in Rock Paper Scissors - it would gompastomp some armies and get absolutely flattened by others. One Imperial Knight with any decent back-up would roll straight over it.

Traceoftoxin wrote:Tyrant Guard at 3W is also ridiculously strong. That's ~16 points per 6T 3+ wound.

16pts per T6 Wound sounds fair to me, currently Tyrant Guard barely worth their points, I'm not even sure 3W changes that.

Traceoftoxin wrote:Carnifex at 90pts is super strong.

I have to agree with Tyran, I think you are dramatically overestimating the strength of Monstrous Creatures. Tomb Spyders get more or less a TMC statline for only 50pts, and no one thinks they are over powered. Sure a Carnifex is better, but it's also nearly double the price.

Traceoftoxin wrote:Warrior strain models at 2W with no EW base is a massive nerf.

It's a big nerf but they gained a lot - Expendable "saves", -5ppm, Brotherhood of Psykers and Move Through Cover.

Traceoftoxin wrote:As someone who is also working on a Tyranid fandex, here's my input. Identify what you want to do with the book. Do you want to take the current style of Tyranids and make the bad units more playable? Do you want to give the book as a whole competitive builds?

I did do that, it's straight in my mission statement on page 2 haha - I want to make fluffy lists viable, although not uber-competitive. To me fluffy means three things:

1.) Adaptable, with lots of tools for different problems.
2.) Good mix of hordes and monsters as a viable play style.
3.) Emphasis on making the units synergize better together.

These things were mostly focused on by reducing points cost across the board (especially in our horribly overcosted MCs), giving us more and better access to upgrades and options (without turning it into the "fun for the Nid player, cl*sterf*ck for the opposing player" that the 4th Ed Dex was), getting special rules that worked by promoting mixed style armies (Expendable is the easiest go-to example but Ravenous Advance, the proliferation of Ld decreasing Psychic Powers and Pinning on better and more platforms are all examples), and just having some fun with it ("They're Everywhere" hahaha).

Traceoftoxin wrote:If your goal is to make the book more interesting, then you've got to identify what people want. That, of course, is always customization. People love being able to build unique and interesting models/units that fit their idea of what the unit should be/do. This codex has made options slightly more attractive, but, as a whole, it's basically the same old stuff with more powers.

Consider looking at the 3rd/4th edition codex for how Tyranid options were handled. While lacking some internal cost balance, those codices had a LOT going for them as far as options were concerned.

I'm not sure everyone is as eager to go back to the insanity that the upgrades were in 4th Ed as you are my friend.

Traceoftoxin wrote:There's definitely some good ideas in here, but you've gone way too far with some stuff, and not nearly far enough with other stuff.

What do you think I've gone too far on?

Traceoftoxin wrote:If you're interested, I'd love to collaborate with you. Your layout is beautiful, you've done a great job getting the book together. Shoot me a PM, we could work together on this.

Post your Dex here, we have a small but great community going on this thread, and they've been IMMENSELY helpful for me.

Tyran wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Genestealers with 3A, HaR and Stealth base, and a 4th attack base for 2 points? That's ridiculously strong. Combined with the GS formation, you could easily put 60-100 Genestealers in the opponent's face, against which there is little they could do to stop them. Going to ground with stealth and shrouding is a straight 3+ cover in open ground. Fly up a flyrant and they immediately stand up because they become fearless. That would legitimately force the meta to adopt more flamers/ignores cover small arms as right now most armies couldn't deal with that outside of deathstar and Superheavies (Although they could die to glances from GS).

Oh please Necron Flayed Ones are far stronger than that for cheaper and yet they hadn't forced a meta change.

Tyrant Guard at 3W is also ridiculously strong. That's ~16 points per 6T 3+ wound.

Which is the same as Necron Spiders, hardly game changing.

Carnifex at 90pts is super strong.

I fail to see how a slow t6 w4 sv3+ unit with no ranged attack is super strong.

Comparing Flayed Ones to Genestealers is like comparing Gants to Marines. First and foremost, Genestealers have rending, which immediately makes them much more dangerous than Flayed Ones. They can kill anything in the game with a T value, and glance up to AV13. They are WS6, meaning they hit everything short of characters on 3s, I6, meaning they go before everything short of characters (And sweep most things reliably), and Fearless. Flayed ones do two things well, shred low save infantry, and absorb bullets. Ask Daemon players what Daemonettes do to things when they get to assault.

I've played a lot of Genestealers. I played them all the way up to the top tables of Wargamescon back in 5th edition. Giving them 50% more damage output, stealth, HNR, and then a formation where they get shrouded and a 6" infiltrate will make them unbelievable. There's always a tipping point where the opponent simply cannot remove enough of them.

Right, Spiders have similar durability, but are weaker in combat. If you know someone who has said Spiders were overcosted for their durability, then you know someone who doesn't understand the costs of the game. Paying less than 20 points per T6 3+ wound is nuts dude. That's some of the cheapest wounds-per-toughness in the game. The reason units like the Riptide and Wraithlord are so strong is because they pay virtually nothing for their durability. That's what costing models at this rate is turning into.

I made all Synapse creatures Psykers, also I disagree on no fluff justification - all Tyranids derive their psychic powers from their link to the Hive Mind, and all Synapse Creatures have a direct link. Warriors just have a much weaker one compared to Hive Tyrant's.

It's pretty clear in the fluff that Tyranid psykers need to be specially adapted to channel psychic abilities, it takes a lot of resources to make them capable of doing it. The reason why warriors have never is because they're not supposed to be massively resource intensive, they're supposed to be the cheapest (biomass wise) way to put synapse out there. Maybe an available upgrade to turn them into psykers, but I don't see the justification for it.

That list would be crazy fun, but would be the ultimate in Rock Paper Scissors - it would gompastomp some armies and get absolutely flattened by others. One Imperial Knight with any decent back-up would roll straight over it.

I think you're completely wrong. Proper spacing and deployment of the stealers would keep the knight from getting anywhere across the board. If you're playing objectives, that's how you win the game. 5x10 man units of stealers could completely shut down an entire army's first two turns of movement. Especially if the Tyranid player got first turn. Not to mention, any stealers that survive in 1s and 2s can eat overwatches, or gang up on small units and easily wipe them, and units of 10 will do serious damage to almost anything they charge.

The thing that shuts down a stealer list is servo skulls.

16pts per T6 Wound sounds fair to me, currently Tyrant Guard barely worth their points, I'm not even sure 3W changes that.

I disagree completely. 16pts per t6 wound is way too cheap. Why not just drop the cost to 40 pts? That's a 20% durability buff rather than a 50% durability buff, while also making their offensive power more efficient.

I have to agree with Tyran, I think you are dramatically overestimating the strength of Monstrous Creatures. Tomb Spyders get more or less a TMC statline for only 50pts, and no one thinks they are over powered. Sure a Carnifex is better, but it's also nearly double the price.

No one thinks TS are overpowered, that's 100% true. No one also things they're underpowered in any way. They are significantly weaker than a Carnifex in combat, it's not even comparable. No one worries about a TS assaulting them because it's 2xS6 attacks, it'll kill a marine a turn, can barely threaten vehicles with it's single s10 smash. S9 base is a really big deal. You can double things out, you can wreck any vehicle in the game (Even with your HOW). Everyone knows to be afraid of the dakkafexes shooting, but when you charge in, it hurts real bad too. Pricing the devourers like that was smart, dakkafexes are a solid unit as it is, but I think you're really overlooking the strength of getting naked fexes at 90ppm.

It's a big nerf but they gained a lot - Expendable "saves", -5ppm, Brotherhood of Psykers and Move Through Cover.

I missed the -5ppm. I think without the BoP, the Expendable, MTC and -5ppm changes would actually end up being a fair balance. At 30ppm with the 3+ save, you're paying basically SM durability costs.

it's straight in my mission statement on page 2 haha

Clearly I skipped that, my bad.

I see a lot of stuff that feels like massive points drops or changes without consideration for how it could be abused, which is common when you're doing something solo, and is a hallmark of all GW books.

I'm not sure everyone is as eager to go back to the insanity that the upgrades were in 4th Ed as you are my friend.

I would highly disagree with you. Customization is one of the biggest draws of 40k over other game systems. Look at the Deathwatch release. One of the most hyped releases I've seen in a long time, because you can customize every single model in your army. People LOVE making their army unique, and having it's own flavor. Giving people more options is good. As for it being difficult for your opponent... most players don't even know their own army 100%, having +1S on one unit compared to another, so long as it's visible, is not game-breaking. Do you get a headache every time someone has a differently equipped sergeant in their squad?

What do you think I've gone too far on?

Deathleaper is insanely powerful right now, particularly with his formation. You can easily wipe out any 2W character with impunity. Making it so the enemy cannot deny challenges AND you get to pick the character, on a model that can pretty easily hide behind LOS, and can now deploy anywhere and assault immediately, is ridiculous. It's not a fun mechanic for your opponent. If you went with 4th edition style, where he can assault out of DS, but can only DS into terrain, you give the opponent the ability to somewhat mitigate this. Or change the forced challenge to make them do a LD check, d6, something where they feel like they had the chance to get away. Also adds tension to the moment.

I am 100% confident GS the way you have them, with that formation, are broken. If I have to, I'll play any 1850 list you guys can come up with against it. Aside from a straight Knights army, which I still think the GS will do well against, I'm pretty confident that having the ability to put GS out like that will be game breaking. In 5th edition, putting 35 GS with FNP and 4+ cover at 18" was ridiculous for most armies to shift. Having a 3+ cover save on command, 2+ in actual cover, at 6", will break most armies. Wyverns, SMS, and TFC are the only major ignores cover I can think of that gets serious play. Even still, with 50 bodies, they likely won't have enough to remove even half, since careful use of position will place models out of LOS, and force them to shoot through coherency giving other units 2+ cover. The only reasons Mechanicum stealers don't see more play is the low terrain density on most boards, the lack of a guarantee of ruins, and severely limited brood size. 5 models is too few to survive MSU shooting, and too small to cover big sections of the board. The 3A base and 4th attack (+grenades) for only a few points is what really breaks it. Your Genestealers are 50% more powerful in assault standard, 33% on charging turns. Giving them those extra attacks, and with grenades, means they will shred basically anything in the game before it gets to fight. At 3A you will be rending every 3rd GS (9 attacks, 6 hits, 1 rend), and at 4A almost every other GS. That will add up very, very quickly, when you can infiltrate all those units with stealth and shrouding right in the opponents face.

Drop them back to 2A base and 14ppm and they'd be solid with HNR and Stealth. Change the formation to just give them scout. Yeah, you could still end up 1" away if you have first turn, but you won't be able to infiltrate straight into cover in perfect formation just outside their lines. It also makes it so Servo Skulls don't completely invalidate the Genestealers. The Shrouding is also still REALLY strong, but at 2A base, they're less overwhelming in assault.

Giving everything with Scything Talons grenades is a big deal. Falling back and forcing Tyranids to fight over stuff to get to you for your advantage is super fluffy. While it's frustrating for us bug players, it was a major handicap that helped keep us from sweeping every CC we get into. I think that giving Tyranids a way to get into combat at initiative is a good idea, I don't think giving it for free or cheap to every dedicated CC unit is the solution. The 5th edition rerolls on ST was a pretty fair way to go, gave a legit reason to ever want a second pair.

Gargoyles at 8ppm is terrible. Doesn't matter how powerful their CC attack is, they die to a stiff breeze, not to mention they're very much meant to be meatshields.

Raveners at -10ppm and a 4+ save is an insanely large buff, even with -1W. You've made then 33% cheaper, and against most small arms, a further 33% more durable. They were a fringe unit before, this makes them absolutely brutal. I would 100% take 2x6 of these with RC in every list for 150 pts a unit.

No reason to add Shred to Biovores, although pinning is fair (As all barrage weapons used to be pinning).

Spirit Leech is absolutely insane. Average for 3d6 is 11, average LD is 7/8. With the -1 from SITW (Which is a good chance), you're talking about 4 wounds on average to tactical squads with no saves, which isn't INSANE, but, the fact that it gets you 4 more WC absolutely is. You could easily end up with 5-7 extra dice off of this power. On the flip side, the Malceptor's power is still absolute trash. Either reduce SL to 2d6, or reduce the dice coming in. Make the Malceptors power WC1, it'll take 2 dice instead of 4 to have a decent chance to cast.

Post your Dex here, we have a small but great community going on this thread, and they've been IMMENSELY helpful for me.

Yours is so pretty it puts my word document to shame, haha. What do you use to edit it?

 Traceoftoxin wrote:


Comparing Flayed Ones to Genestealers is like comparing Gants to Marines. First and foremost, Genestealers have rending, which immediately makes them much more dangerous than Flayed Ones. They can kill anything in the game with a T value, and glance up to AV13. They are WS6, meaning they hit everything short of characters on 3s, I6, meaning they go before everything short of characters (And sweep most things reliably), and Fearless. Flayed ones do two things well, shred low save infantry, and absorb bullets. Ask Daemon players what Daemonettes do to things when they get to assault.

And Flayed ones have more attacks and far more durability, they may be useless against armor, but they will kill almost anything with a T value just by how much wounds they can inflict. Also they are cheaper. I'm comparing the numbers, even this version of Genestealers still loses hilariously against Flayed ones, 13 Genestealers vs 15 Flayed ones ends with the Flayed ones losing 4 or 5 models while genestealers being annihilated.

And that is the problem, Genestealers are so fragile that even with their damage output they will suffer heavy loses against anything that can strike back.

I've played a lot of Genestealers. I played them all the way up to the top tables of Wargamescon back in 5th edition. Giving them 50% more damage output, stealth, HNR, and then a formation where they get shrouded and a 6" infiltrate will make them unbelievable. There's always a tipping point where the opponent simply cannot remove enough of them.

And this isn't 5th edition, armies like Eldar, Tau and Necrons will eat any 5th edition dex for breakfast, even the 6th ed Tyranids can work very well against 5th editions ones, the power creep is real and is insane.

Right, Spiders have similar durability, but are weaker in combat. If you know someone who has said Spiders were overcosted for their durability, then you know someone who doesn't understand the costs of the game. Paying less than 20 points per T6 3+ wound is nuts dude. That's some of the cheapest wounds-per-toughness in the game. The reason units like the Riptide and Wraithlord are so strong is because they pay virtually nothing for their durability. That's what costing models at this rate is turning into.

And also because they are ranged, mobile units, the advantage shooting has over assault is massive. You could give any Tyranid unit Riptide level of durability and it still wouldn't be anywhere that good because it would still need to cross the board to reach assault. Consider the GK Dreadknight, t6 w4, sv2+/5++, jumping and s10 force weapons for only 130 points. It is faster, more durable and far more killy than anything on this codex for the same points, but while not underpowered, it doesn't dominated the meta at all.

And Tyrant Guards are not that much better in combat, they are infantry not MC, their attacks aren't normally ap2 unless rending or crushing claws (which is a significant cost increase), also they don't spawn a 20 pt model for free each turn.

No one thinks TS are overpowered, that's 100% true. No one also things they're underpowered in any way. They are significantly weaker than a Carnifex in combat, it's not even comparable. No one worries about a TS assaulting them because it's 2xS6 attacks, it'll kill a marine a turn, can barely threaten vehicles with it's single s10 smash. S9 base is a really big deal. You can double things out, you can wreck any vehicle in the game (Even with your HOW). Everyone knows to be afraid of the dakkafexes shooting, but when you charge in, it hurts real bad too. Pricing the devourers like that was smart, dakkafexes are a solid unit as it is, but I think you're really overlooking the strength of getting naked fexes at 90ppm.

And the Carnifex is paying for that better statline with almost double the cost.

Tyran wrote:
And Flayed ones have more attacks and far more durability, they may be useless against armor, but they will kill almost anything with a T value just by how much wounds they can inflict. Also they are cheaper. I'm comparing the numbers, even this version of Genestealers still loses hilariously against Flayed ones, 13 Genestealers vs 15 Flayed ones ends with the Flayed ones losing 4 or 5 models while genestealers being annihilated.

And that is the problem, Genestealers are so fragile that even with their damage output they will suffer heavy loses against anything that can strike back.

Except the Flayed ones do basically no damage to T6+, or 2+ saves. Genestealers can, and will, reliably destroy these targets. 10 FO attacks will put 1.5 wounds (Before saves) on T6, 10 GS attacks will put a rend. FO can't even hurt T8.

They are cheaper, but they're also not troops, they also lack hit and run, they also have I2, and no leadership control. They are also equally or less durable than Stealth+Shrouded GS, except to a handful of ignores cover weapons.

That has never been the problem with stealers. If you've ever played stealer shock lists, the issue has always been surviving long enough to get into combat. Why would you ever throw Genestealers at Flayed Ones, or anything else with high attacks characteristics? Considering you have a 6" infiltrate, you have complete control over where you deploy.

And this isn't 5th edition, armies like Eldar, Tau and Necrons will eat any 5th edition dex for breakfast, even the 6th ed Tyranids can work very well against 5th editions ones, the power creep is real and is insane.

You're right, the power creep is real, and is insane, and making formations+units like this is exactly that. If you think Tyranids can't currently give any codex in the game a run for their money in a game that goes to it's natural conclusion, you need to play more. As it stands, the biggest reason Tyranids aren't a top tier tournament codex is you simply cannot play a 100+ model army (That may even have returning models) to turn 5/6 in 2.5 hours. Our book has all the tools to completely dominate objective based games, and creating a formation that lets you completely bottle your opponent up with one of the strongest assault units in the game will only make it worse. It's not always about having the hardest hitting stick, outside of KP based missions, being able to control board space and objectives is far, far more important.

And also because they are ranged, mobile units, the advantage shooting has over assault is massive. You could give any Tyranid unit Riptide level of durability and it still wouldn't be anywhere that good because it would still need to cross the board to reach assault. Consider the GK Dreadknight, t6 w4, sv2+/5++, jumping and s10 force weapons for only 130 points. It is faster, more durable and far more killy than anything on this codex for the same points, but while not underpowered, it doesn't dominated the meta at all.

And Tyrant Guards are not that much better in combat, they are infantry not MC, their attacks aren't normally ap2 unless rending or crushing claws (which is a significant cost increase), also they don't spawn a 20 pt model for free each turn.

A model doesn't need to reach assault to win the game. It simply has to force your opponent to not be on an objective by virtue of threatening it. If your army ends the game on the center line, and the opponent is 12" away, you now hold half the board, and should consequently hold more than half of the objectives (As you should hold the center of the board). This doesn't translate as well to other codices, because other codices don't press their entire army forward like we do. Orks do, and it won Pajamapants numerous GTs, although he has gone on record as saying, once again, time limits are his biggest enemy. No one is scared of a riptide in assault, despite how durable it is, because it's not fearless and it's not going to kill much.

The Dreadknight does not have force weapons or jumping at 130 pts. It is 165 pts minimum for that loadout, and is also considered one of a small number of strong choices in an otherwise trash codex. People did in fact bring it to shift the meta, but found GK as a whole simply weren't good enough at, surprise surprise, holding objectives. Too few bodies with too little damage output to make up for it. Again, you're looking at things out of context.

Tyrant Guard are that much better in combat. That hit on 3s vs 4s and get hit on 4s vs 3s, they swing at a solid I, and they have a solid number of attacks. They have a similar average output on most targets, but have a much better variance. Their job is to keep a Tyrant alive, and by making them 16 pts a wound you're giving a Tyrant free wounds, as he has a guaranteed LOS.

And the Carnifex is paying for that better statline with almost double the cost.

Which is absolutely worth it.

Most of these models are fair to discuss, but i have to agree on Deathleaper. He is truly too much. I see no reason not to take him in every single list.
Maybe a little point increase and gets overwatched as usual if he charges in the first turn?

 Traceoftoxin wrote:


Except the Flayed ones do basically no damage to T6+, or 2+ saves. Genestealers can, and will, reliably destroy these targets. 10 FO attacks will put 1.5 wounds (Before saves) on T6, 10 GS attacks will put a rend. FO can't even hurt T8.

They are cheaper, but they're also not troops, they also lack hit and run, they also have I2, and no leadership control. They are also equally or less durable than Stealth+Shrouded GS, except to a handful of ignores cover weapons.

That has never been the problem with stealers. If you've ever played stealer shock lists, the issue has always been surviving long enough to get into combat. Why would you ever throw Genestealers at Flayed Ones, or anything else with high attacks characteristics? Considering you have a 6" infiltrate, you have complete control over where you deploy.

You're right, the power creep is real, and is insane, and making formations+units like this is exactly that. If you think Tyranids can't currently give any codex in the game a run for their money in a game that goes to it's natural conclusion, you need to play more. As it stands, the biggest reason Tyranids aren't a top tier tournament codex is you simply cannot play a 100+ model army (That may even have returning models) to turn 5/6 in 2.5 hours. Our book has all the tools to completely dominate objective based games, and creating a formation that lets you completely bottle your opponent up with one of the strongest assault units in the game will only make it worse. It's not always about having the hardest hitting stick, outside of KP based missions, being able to control board space and objectives is far, far more important.

One of the strongest assault unit in the game? any assault deathstar will eat Genestealers for breakfast. Yeah Genestealers will murder any non-assault unit in the game, but they suffer when they have to deal with other dedicated assault units.

Also ignore cover weapons aren't exactly rare, they may be rare in the meta, but everyone has access to at least template weapons, so it isn't like Genestealer spam is uncounterable, at most it will force a change in the meta.

A model doesn't need to reach assault to win the game. It simply has to force your opponent to not be on an objective by virtue of threatening it. If your army ends the game on the center line, and the opponent is 12" away, you now hold half the board, and should consequently hold more than half of the objectives (As you should hold the center of the board). This doesn't translate as well to other codices, because other codices don't press their entire army forward like we do. Orks do, and it won Pajamapants numerous GTs, although he has gone on record as saying, once again, time limits are his biggest enemy. No one is scared of a riptide in assault, despite how durable it is, because it's not fearless and it's not going to kill much.

But Orks don't have the problem that killing synapse creatures pretty much shuts down the entire army. Also Orks have T4, furious charge and more attacks, any ork unit can wreck a transport while gaunts need adrenal glands to have the same effect.

Tyrant Guard are that much better in combat. That hit on 3s vs 4s and get hit on 4s vs 3s, they swing at a solid I, and they have a solid number of attacks. They have a similar average output on most targets, but have a much better variance. Their job is to keep a Tyrant alive, and by making them 16 pts a wound you're giving a Tyrant free wounds, as he has a guaranteed LOS.

Which is absolutely worth it.

Both are strong, but standard anti-MC weapons still will murder them, D weapons, Grav and Tau in general are still a thing after all.

Dark Eldar poison weapons or Disintegrators would do a lot of damage as well.

Spoletta wrote:Most of these models are fair to discuss, but i have to agree on Deathleaper. He is truly too much. I see no reason not to take him in every single list.
Maybe a little point increase and gets overwatched as usual if he charges in the first turn?

Traceoftoxin wrote:Deathleaper is insanely powerful right now, particularly with his formation. You can easily wipe out any 2W character with impunity. Making it so the enemy cannot deny challenges AND you get to pick the character, on a model that can pretty easily hide behind LOS, and can now deploy anywhere and assault immediately, is ridiculous. It's not a fun mechanic for your opponent.

Deathleaper only gets to charge first turn if he's your Warlord, and while yes, he will wipe out any 2W character in the game (and a lot of the 3W ones), he's still extremely fragile and is going to immediately give up Slay the Warlord when that characters squad hit's back. I'll move him up to 115pts though.

Genestealer debate.

I think you should try a game with the new Genestealers, they are much better, but not as practical as you think. They can't charge first turn (Infiltrate explicitly precludes that), which means the enemy is guaranteed a full turn of shooting at them, two if your opponent goes first. The formation bonus only gets them 6" away if you can put the ENTIRE unit in area terrain, which means you are definitely not getting 60-100 models within 6" of the enemy, and the models you do get are going to need to be bunched up if you want more than a couple units, the rest of your 'Stealers will have to be 18" away as normal.

I'm not arguing they are strong, they are definitely back to their glory days, but they are still Glass Hammers, they have no durability outside of Stealth (and 1st turn Shrouded if you use the GSI formation). You are still losing quite a few models before you get to attack (or are buying Flesh Hooks for 3ppm which brings them up to a fairly high price tag per model).

Traceoftoxin wrote:The 3A base and 4th attack (+grenades) for only a few points is what really breaks it.

I don't think 5pts is only a "few" points, that's a third of their base cost - at 20ppm they should be good.

Regardless, rather than theory-hammering I'll play a game with this Stealer Shock list you've proposed. This weekend I'm road-tripping up to Edmonton Expo so I can't this weekend but next weekend a friend of mine who plays Eldar has agreed to play against it.

Traceoftoxin wrote:You're right, the power creep is real, and is insane, and making formations+units like this is exactly that. If you think Tyranids can't currently give any codex in the game a run for their money in a game that goes to it's natural conclusion, you need to play more. As it stands, the biggest reason Tyranids aren't a top tier tournament codex is you simply cannot play a 100+ model army (That may even have returning models) to turn 5/6 in 2.5 hours. Our book has all the tools to completely dominate objective based games, and creating a formation that lets you completely bottle your opponent up with one of the strongest assault units in the game will only make it worse. It's not always about having the hardest hitting stick, outside of KP based missions, being able to control board space and objectives is far, far more important.

This is just objectively not true and if you think it is you need more competitive opponents. I 100% agree that the artificial constraints of tournament settings needlessly handicap horde armies such as Nids and Orks (and even certain IG builds), but if you think an equally skilled Eldar, Tau, or Necron player can't absolutely demolish an equally skilled Tyranid player then you aren't playing people as good as you are. I play both Necrons and Tyranids and I don't even bring my Necrons out anymore unless someone asks me to specifically because the Decurion Detachment makes them ungoldly durable, with excellent firepower to boot. We don't have an innate advantage in objective games at all. Our Synapse Creatures are too expensive to take alongside a big horde and still have enough points left over for other threat mitigation, and that means any skilled player has a built-in roadmap to take us apart. Tau and Eldar can tear down your Synapse Web before you even cross the board.

That's one of the biggest things I've been trying to mitigate in this FanDex.

You keep implying (or outright stating) that Tyranids have the advantage in Objective based games because we can cover half the board with models, and against the lowest tier Codex's that might be true, but against the middle and top tier books it's just simply not. Every 7th Ed book can force us to just remove handful after handful of models with us doing minimal damage back because we lack the range, speed, or hitting power to retaliate effectively. This FanDex definitely changes that, and definitely brings us up to either the high end of the middle tier or low end of the top-tier with a few builds.

Tyrant Guard are that much better in combat. That hit on 3s vs 4s and get hit on 4s vs 3s, they swing at a solid I, and they have a solid number of attacks. They have a similar average output on most targets, but have a much better variance. Their job is to keep a Tyrant alive, and by making them 16 pts a wound you're giving a Tyrant free wounds, as he has a guaranteed LOS.

By definition 16pts per Wound isn't free, haha, and it's also a relatively slow unit (you can't put them and a Hive Tyrant in a Pod). They have a decent Initiative yes, but they only get to use it when attacking with their worst weapon (Scy Tals), or if you buy them Bonesword & Lashwhip (which makes them 70ppm.)

Raveners at -10ppm and a 4+ save is an insanely large buff, even with -1W. You've made then 33% cheaper, and against most small arms, a further 33% more durable. They were a fringe unit before, this makes them absolutely brutal. I would 100% take 2x6 of these with RC in every list for 150 pts a unit.

How do you figure 33% more durable? 4+ to 5+ is 16%, they are still 10pts per Wound, and were absolute garbage before.

Scything Talons.

I think you've misunderstood how Scything Talons work, you count as having assault grenades only when attacking with the Scything Talons themselves, it doesn't transfer to other weapons. So a Genestealer or Ravener with RC and Scy Tals charging into terrain can attack at it's Initiative with Scy Tals, or can attack at Initiative 1 with it's Rending Claws. Both need to buy Flesh Hooks as well if they want to attack at Initiative with their Rending Claws. That makes the 'uberStealer' build 20ppm and Rending Raveners 28ppm.

Spirit Leech is absolutely insane. Average for 3d6 is 11, average LD is 7/8. With the -1 from SITW (Which is a good chance), you're talking about 4 wounds on average to tactical squads with no saves, which isn't INSANE, but, the fact that it gets you 4 more WC absolutely is. You could easily end up with 5-7 extra dice off of this power. On the flip side, the Malceptor's power is still absolute trash. Either reduce SL to 2d6, or reduce the dice coming in. Make the Malceptors power WC1, it'll take 2 dice instead of 4 to have a decent chance to cast.

I'll put a cap on the dice SL can generate. Probably 1 Wound = 1 WC, 2+ Wounds = D3 WC, so the most you can ever get back is 3 WC.

Yours is so pretty it puts my word document to shame, haha. What do you use to edit it?

Adobe Illustrator (Adobe InDesign would be better but I only have Illustrator haha). I don't think anyone will mind a Word Doc but if you are nervous about showing it, send it to me over e-mail instead: jesse.l.sinclair@gmail.com

The Tyrant buff seems kinda unneeded it was already a good model it was just flyrants were better witch was the only reason people never took them. At 140 points I feel like they are to much as I can not think of any model that can kill them at 140 points in a different codex. Not only dose it have a great close combat MC statline it is also a psyker with ML two and it got extended carpes back letting it bring it's durability close to that of a riptide.

Also making 3 power dispels seems strange as it lets you snipe the power you want most the time if you got ML2. Also the buff to peroxisome seems uneed as it was already one of the better powers and the spirit leach change seems just silly as it lets you cast it for close to free as it will almost always pay back it's warp charges.

 mew28 wrote:
The Tyrant buff seems kinda unneeded it was already a good model it was just flyrants were better witch was the only reason people never took them. At 140 points I feel like they are to much as I can not think of any model that can kill them at 140 points in a different codex. Not only dose it have a great close combat MC statline it is also a psyker with ML two and it got extended carpes back letting it bring it's durability close to that of a riptide.

Well, he is trying to make the walking version to be proportional as good as the flying version. And at 140 points they are t6 w4 t3, plenty of things can kill that, and with the 2+ upgrade it is close to a riptide in cost.

Also making 3 power dispels seems strange as it lets you snipe the power you want most the time if you got ML2. Also the buff to peroxisome seems uneed as it was already one of the better powers and the spirit leach change seems just silly as it lets you cast it for close to free as it will almost always pay back it's warp charges.

He buffed paroxism but also made it a WC 2 power.

Dose it truly make sense to try and make it viable to a unit as good as a flyrant? I mean currently a flyrants so good it can prop up the rest of the codex as being competitive. I personally would rather see the flyrant just toned down a bit and make the rest of the codex better.

 mew28 wrote:
Dose it truly make sense to try and make it viable to a unit as good as a flyrant? I mean currently a flyrants so good it can prop up the rest of the codex as being competitive. I personally would rather see the flyrant just toned down a bit and make the rest of the codex better.

Did you actually go through the options for the Hive Tyrant? Jesse boosted the cost of TWD and Wings so a Flyrant is still 235pts whilst a walking version is now much cheaper, and a much needed change it is too.

 mew28 wrote:
The Tyrant buff seems kinda unneeded it was already a good model it was just flyrants were better witch was the only reason people never took them. At 140 points I feel like they are to much as I can not think of any model that can kill them at 140 points in a different codex. Not only dose it have a great close combat MC statline it is also a psyker with ML two and it got extended carpes back letting it bring it's durability close to that of a riptide.

Also making 3 power dispels seems strange as it lets you snipe the power you want most the time if you got ML2. Also the buff to peroxisome seems uneed as it was already one of the better powers and the spirit leach change seems just silly as it lets you cast it for close to free as it will almost always pay back it's warp charges.

Re: Tyrants. The walking Hive Tyrant definitely needed a buff, as they currently are they are garbage - much less durable and useful than comparable units. I would also argue that its not Flyrants that are a good unit, it's specifically Dakka Flyrants, the two TL Dev version. It's not like you see melee Flyrants, or even those rocking a Venom Cannon or Barbed Strangler ever.

Therefore I dropped the price of the Tyrant base, making the walking Tyrant not such a point sink, but increased the cost of wings (+5pts) and TL Devs (+10pts). This makes the new Dakka Flyrant the same price as the old, but makes other options much cheaper (and hopefully more attractive).

Re: Powers. I would like to increase each Psychic discipline to a full 7 powers - if we aren't allowed rulebook powers we need variability. That will will hopefully compensate by making it substantially less of a guarantee you'll get the power you want. As noted in a previous reply Spirit Leech will be toned down in the next version. It is a bit ridiculous as it is now.

Thank you for your feedback!

The 4 powers per discipline works well, specially as most units are restricted to 1 or 2 disciplines.

Also, does anyone feel that the Acid spray is a must have in the Tyrannofex? it outperforms the Flesborer Hive against everything except t3 (assuming no cover) and has better range.

Meanwhile the Rupture Cannon has negligible damage unless it manages to get the D shot.

 Imateria wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
Dose it truly make sense to try and make it viable to a unit as good as a flyrant? I mean currently a flyrants so good it can prop up the rest of the codex as being competitive. I personally would rather see the flyrant just toned down a bit and make the rest of the codex better.

Did you actually go through the options for the Hive Tyrant? Jesse boosted the cost of TWD and Wings so a Flyrant is still 235pts whilst a walking version is now much cheaper, and a much needed change it is too.

Yes I read the entire codex. I honestly think the flyrant should have costed more and well it is true the hive tyrant could have used a buff I feel like a 25 point drop was to much as it is still a ML2 pyker with great stats that make it incredibly powerful in close combat even with no upgrades.

Tyran you wouldn't want new powers added even if they were all useful? I was thinking there is a lot more that could be fun in Adaptation - a power that grants Rage to the target unit. A 2 WC power that allows a unit to shoot twice in the next shooing phase. Maybe a toughness increase power or something that grants a temporary Invul save.

The Acid Spray is really good I agree. I was thinking of giving the Rupture Cannon a second firing mode to make it more useful. Right now it hunts Vehicles and only vehicles, which makes the RC build something you only take if you KNOW you are facing Knights or vehicle spam.

JesseS wrote:
Tyran you wouldn't want new powers added even if they were all useful? I was thinking there is a lot more that could be fun in Adaptation - a power that grants Rage to the target unit. A 2 WC power that allows a unit to shoot twice in the next shooing phase. Maybe a toughness increase power or something that grants a temporary Invul save.

The Acid Spray is really good I agree. I was thinking of giving the Rupture Cannon a second firing mode to make it more useful. Right now it hunts Vehicles and only vehicles, which makes the RC build something you only take if you KNOW you are facing Knights or vehicle spam.

I didn't mean that I wouldn't want, but rather that it wasn't needed. If you have a lot of ideas then you could add them, of course you also would have to think of 9 new powers, 3 for each discipline.

As for the Rupture Cannon, it isn't even that good against vehicles, as one s10 ap4 shot is only stripping a hull point each turn. The rare D shot will help, but not that much as it is unreliable at best. Hive Guard, Zoanthropes and Crushing Claws are far better anti-vehicle weapons.

Well, the Rupture Cannon is AP2 now, so that helps. I still think the T-fex should be BS4, to make the D shot more likely. For the Fleshborer hive, returning it to 18" range will help, but the main problem with it is that it's main target is the same as the Acid Spray, but Acid Spray is better. Currently (with 12" range) the Acid Spray has a better range, wounds easier, and ignores both cover and armor in almost all cases. You can get more hits (potentially) from the hive, but you'll kill more with the spray. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything to do with it right now. I'll think it over and talk to friends about some possibilities.

For psychic powers, have you looked at the 1d4chan 7th edition Tyranid fan-dex? It's fairly well done, though I think they went a little too far in power level. Their psychic powers, though, were good.

Walk-rants really needed the buff, as they are currently worthless. But to be fair, so are just about all of our MC's in the competitive meta. Too much grav, scat bikes, or D-weapons for any walking, slow MC's to do anything but die.

BTW, here are the battlescribe files I made for the codex. If you see any error please report it to me.

EDIT: also, there are a lot of mentions to "area terrain", which technically doesn't exist anymore in the 7th edition.

And for the genestealer spam, infiltrators also counter them.

And does anyone else feel that the first turn deepstrike of the Trygon essentially is sacrificing it unless you somehow have other first turn early threats?

^It's a definite problem for the Trygon but I feel it would be a case of risk/reward. One of the big things about the Trygon is that it makes a tunnel for other units to come up out of but at present it's a completely useless feature without the ability to come on turn 1, too often you'll come on the same time or after the units you want to pass through that tunnel.

I tried the Trygon with drop pod rules (half come in on turn one) and it was too powerful. Not the Trygon's themselves but the ability to deploy multiple units across multiple tunnels right into the heart of the enemy with no scatter. The only one Trygon is definitely a case where the reward needs to be worth the risk in your eyes.

Give Trygon an escort style rule, similar to stormtalons, brings one unit in behind it.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Give Trygon an escort style rule, similar to stormtalons, brings one unit in behind it.

Good call, I can put the rule on Raveners which would be suuuuper fluffy.

As for the Genestealers, maybe we should wait and see what the Genestealer Cult Codex does with them.

For Raveners, instead of making them melee specialists with the deep strike rule as an afterthought, i suggest we focus more on that rule.
Let's leave them at the actual point cost and stat line they have on the official codex, then we enhance the deep strike capabilites. Fluff wise, deep strike mishaps and randomness is dumb when you are just emerging, in particular if you are guided by someone. I suggest that they can decide on which turn they come onto the table and if the result of the deep strike is a mishap, they reduce the scattering accordlngly, like trygons. If they elect to deep strike in an area covered by synapse, they do not scatter.

Now they have a clear role which is not in contrast with the shrikes, the cost is justified and they are more respecting of the fluff.

^I'd suggest at least keeping the 4+ armour change, they're too fragile with 5+ and it is a consideration because they are competing directly with Shrikes, who already have the benefit of being a Synapse unit.

Wow, if the rumors are true, the new Genestealers put the Fan Edition version to shame (so not even bother comparing them with the official Tyranid ones).

13pts/model, 3A, 5++, and Scything Talons for 3pts.

And the metamorph weapons are stackable, which makes me remember back the old days.

Don't think they can strike at Initiative after charging through cover though, at least not without some formation bonuses. Still a massive improvement for a price drop.

 Imateria wrote:
Don't think they can strike at Initiative after charging through cover though, at least not without some formation bonuses. Still a massive improvement for a price drop.

Supposedly there are ways around that with the formations, warlord traits, etc. But yeah by themselves they can't.

Of course with their ambush rule they have a very good, although unreliable, delivery method.

So not a points drop, still 14ppm, but still a boost.

The 'Stealer Cult rules look very interesting, and I'm not going to make any changes to our 'Stealers until I get my book on Saturday and cn play a game or two. It does bring up an interesting new fluff tidbit - apparently the 'Stealers that are in a Cult are better than the ones in a Hive Fleet. the mass-produced ones are given less bio-mass per Stealer (and also they are fresh, the ones in a Cult have had time, sometimes centuries, to grow and adapt).

So we can really choose to go one of two routes - we can mirror the 'Stealer Cult rules as best as possible, or make our own Hive Fleet Stealers that are cheaper, weaker, and easier to spam. Give them a different role to play on the battlefield. Personally my preference would be for that latter - more options is always better (not like you can't just ally in a CAD with a single Patriarch and a bunch of Cult Stealers if you prefer them), and it plays fluffier.

So we keep them like in the official codex... but like 8 points each?

I agree that they should be weaker and cheaper. They're used as shock troops by Tyranid forces. Current nid book statline at 10-12 ppm is reasonable. Perhaps add HNR at that cost, and/or relentless assault.

Make Extended carapace stealers 13-15ppm? That removes their weakness to most ignores cover weapons in the game, while keeping them still at marine costs.

I prefer no stealers in the nid dex at all.

Lictors and Raveners are the nids melee infiltration units with hormagaunts being the bulk of the melee horde in an all out siege of the planet. Stealers role is to subvert the defenses in preparation for the fleets.

I don't think stealers have a place with the nids proper.

Stealers and the brood lord only exist in the nid dex as is because gs cults disappeared. Now that they are back they should be split up again.

 Lance845 wrote:
Stealers and the brood lord only exist in the nid dex as is because gs cults disappeared. Now that they are back they should be split up again.

They have been in every Nid codex, and they don't operate solely in cults. They also operate independently and as part of a Tyranid force. There's no reason to remove them from the Nid codex, although there is reason to differentiate them, as was previously brought up.

 Lance845 wrote:
I prefer no stealers in the nid dex at all.

Lictors and Raveners are the nids melee infiltration units with hormagaunts being the bulk of the melee horde in an all out siege of the planet. Stealers role is to subvert the defenses in preparation for the fleets.

I don't think stealers have a place with the nids proper.

Stealers and the brood lord only exist in the nid dex as is because gs cults disappeared. Now that they are back they should be split up again.

I have to disagree with this, as others have mentioned they've been in literally every 'Nid Codex. Also, Raveners are more surprise shock troops than infiltration units.

From a non-fluff standpoint though it would dramatically change the way people can play the army, for the worse in my opinion. It's nice to be able to play an infiltration list that doesn't have to stay in the Synapse web and plays different than hordes.

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I wouldn't be a fan of leaving Genestealers as they are in the current Dex - just at a lower points value - if we go this route. Some token changes seem appropriate. I'd drop the Unwanted Stowaways rule, even if it is fun, and probably drop them to WS5 / T3 / I5 / A2. This would allow a ppm closer to 9-10, making them a good shock troop in between Hormagants and Warriors but retaining a lot of their deadliness in CC. Still a glass hammer but a bit more spammable.

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For Raveners:

Serpentine Assault: A unit of Raveners in Reserve may be assigned to follow a Trygon (or Trygon Prime) when it is nominated to form an assault tunnel. The Ravener unit must be placed wholly within 6" of the Trygon (or Trygon Prime) as if it had arrived via Deep Strike, but does not scatter. If the unit cannot be replaced it returns to Reserves. The Red Terror or a Tyranid Prime with the Ravener Body biomorph may join a Ravener unit deploying this way, but not other Characters or Independent Characters.

I don't like the idea of making the Genestealers even weaker than the official versions. There is a quite gap between the Tyranid ones and the GSC ones, couldn't we find some middle point?

10-12 ppm with 1-2 new special rules and the current official statline would be plenty.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
10-12 ppm with 1-2 new special rules and the current official statline would be plenty.

Agreed. Genestealers have all the makings of a pretty solid unit. They have lots of attacks, okay toughness, great initiative, and rending. They're just way too expensive for how quickly they die, and their lack of grenades punishes them for hanging out near lots of terrain.

In my eyes, they should be priced similarly to daemonettes. 'Stealers should have Stealth, 'nettes have invuls. Both do the rending thing. Daemonettes deepstrike where genestealers infiltrate. 'Stealers should probably be right around 10 points base.

'Stealer upgrades are ridiculously expensive for what you get. Scything talons cost an arm and a leg (no pun intended) for a single extra attack. Drop that down to a single point per scything talon, and you have a pretty reasonable deal. Same with the other biomorphs. Genestealers that are kitted out hit pretty hard, but they bleed points too quickly on the way in. Give 'stealers assault grenades (though not necessarily flesh hooks), and you're golden.

I'd be pretty content spending ~100 points for a squad of 10 naked 'stealers with stealth and assault grenades or ~150 points for 10 'stealers with stealth, toxin sacs, adrenal glands, scything talons, and assault grenades. They'd be easy enough to counter with ignores cover weapons or by simply deploying in such a way as to force them to cross open terrain to reach you, but they'd also hit hard enough for their points to force you to deal with them. Or heck, you could even just take 5 'stealers with stealth and grenades for 50 points and have them infiltrate onto objectives. They'll be squishy enough that they probably won't do much damage all game, but they'll also survive well enough (by going to ground) to be a pain to remove while the rest of your army is free to charge up the middle.

 Lance845 wrote:
I prefer no stealers in the nid dex at all.

Lictors and Raveners are the nids melee infiltration units with hormagaunts being the bulk of the melee horde in an all out siege of the planet. Stealers role is to subvert the defenses in preparation for the fleets.

I don't think stealers have a place with the nids proper.

Stealers and the brood lord only exist in the nid dex as is because gs cults disappeared. Now that they are back they should be split up again.

I would not be surprised to see 'Stealers removed from the next Nid dex now that the GSC has returned.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Stealers and the brood lord only exist in the nid dex as is because gs cults disappeared. Now that they are back they should be split up again.

They have been in every Nid codex, and they don't operate solely in cults. They also operate independently and as part of a Tyranid force. There's no reason to remove them from the Nid codex, although there is reason to differentiate them, as was previously brought up.

Harlequins, Inquisition, and Assassins are good enough reasons, in my opinion.

If Genestealers are good enough to be an army on their own, then they should be completely separated out and used as Battle Brother Allies. It will also allow them to be sufficiently powerful without completely overshadowing anything in the same codex as the heavy invasion bugs.

In terms of models, it allows their releases to be separated from the main Hive Mind's releases. That translates to more bug possibilities. Aside from the overall army bloat that 40K is experiencing anyway, I fail to see the problems with completely removing them from the Tyranid codex any more than the above-mentioned Harlequins, Inquisition, and Assassins.

They certainly deserve to be separated more than the Storm Troopers, at least.

I doubt they would be removed. There are plenty of units that are either shared by two or more armies or exist as very similar units with some differences.