Lets say that one of a number of possible flees belonging to the different factions of 40k got caught in a warpstorm which deposited them above earth circa 2016. What would each of the factions need to take the planet? Assume that no one realizes that the planet is indeed Holy Terra, 'cause; you know, it still has oceans. How many Guards men would it take? How many SM of the various chapters? Would the Tau simply walk through us? Are the Necrons having a field day? Which faction would have it the easiest? The Hardest?
KayTwo wrote: Lets say that one of a number of possible flees belonging to the different factions of 40k got caught in a warpstorm which deposited them above earth circa 2016. What would each of the factions need to take the planet? Assume that no one realizes that the planet is indeed Holy Terra, 'cause; you know, it still has oceans. How many Guards men would it take? How many SM of the various chapters? Would the Tau simply walk through us? Are the Necrons having a field day? Which faction would have it the easiest? The Hardest?
pretty much any group could take out the current military on this planet, we would have very little defense against the Necrons, Orks when we thought we won they will be growing again, Tyranids, we wouldn't even know what hit us, and Space Marines, Tau and Eldar would out gun us, out tech us and so forth.
At this point a single squad of 10 Chaos Marines can probably conquer earth in about a month. They wouldn't realistically do it all by themselves, but they would find so many converts and cultists that by next friday night, we'll have daemons coming out of the toilets.
Put a Farseer in a situation where he doesn't have to deal with other psykers or other diviners and ask him to mess with the fate of a single planet with no space travel, I'd believe he could take over by himself. That said if a Farseer did find himself back in M.3 he'd be more likely to run off to find the Eldar empire, try and work out a way to avert the Fall, and then bring an M.3 Eldar battlefleet back to glass the place.
The more dogmatic Imperials would need overwhelming force, I'd think. A Space Marine Chapter that showed up shouting about the Emperor is going to get up and shot, they could handle the situation if they had the fleet but the ground forces alone wouldn't be able to accomplish much.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: At this point a single squad of 10 Chaos Marines can probably conquer earth in about a month. They wouldn't realistically do it all by themselves, but they would find so many converts and cultists that by next friday night, we'll have daemons coming out of the toilets.
Alpha Legion or Word Bearers, probably. World Eaters, I suspect they'd cause a lot of damage before dying but conquest is out of the question (that said they wouldn't be too broken up about it, these days).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KayTwo wrote: Alright, but how many space wolves? how many blue berries? How many Guards men and with what equipment?
One Farseer with a Webway portal, or one Necron with a map (to bring reinforcements from their faction in the period). A battleship or a couple of cruisers from most factions could probably manage it.
KayTwo wrote: Lets say that one of a number of possible flees belonging to the different factions of 40k got caught in a warpstorm which deposited them above earth circa 2016. What would each of the factions need to take the planet? Assume that no one realizes that the planet is indeed Holy Terra, 'cause; you know, it still has oceans. How many Guards men would it take? How many SM of the various chapters? Would the Tau simply walk through us? Are the Necrons having a field day? Which faction would have it the easiest? The Hardest?
This sort of a question falls flat very quickly because fundamentally 40k is a Fantasy setting that happens to take place in space, but breaks once reality is applied to it.
For all the extreme technology 40k has, in all honesty in terms of military hardware the real world has stuff that would make the Tau and Eldar look downright primitive. Beyond Visual Range aircraft engagement, real time data coordination across hundreds of units soread over thousands of miles, tanks that can move at highway speeds and kill another tank over 2000 meters away thas also moving at highway speeds with a 95% hit rate on munitions that can penetrate a full meter of hardened steel, artillery that can land within a meter of a designated spot after being fired from 25 miles away, missile systems that can easily track and intercept targets like Drop Pods, etc. Stuff that 40k factions have absolutely no answer or equivalents to because they're all built around Fantasy concepts and, at best, WW2 combat methodologies.
Basically, until you start bringing in spacefleets to just blow up everything, the real world is a whole lot more capable than 40k factions are.
The Emperor would come out of hiding and obliterate any Xenos or heretics who dare threaten early mankind. Astartes and other Imperial forces take a knee to his majesty.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: At this point a single squad of 10 Chaos Marines can probably conquer earth in about a month.
Realistically, they'd be dead in a month.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would take an actual army, not a mere squad, to conquer Earth. It would be trivially easy for an actual army to do so. But a squad is no army.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: At this point a single squad of 10 Chaos Marines can probably conquer earth in about a month.
Realistically, they'd be dead in a month.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would take an actual army, not a mere squad, to conquer Earth. It would be trivially easy for an actual army to do so. But a squad is no army.
We have Davey Crockets. You need more than a single army. Because they're nuked.
I think with a small stroke of luck a few chaos marines could take over. They'ed need to land somewhere remote and take over an area that has a low population to gain a foot hold. Their goal being to conscript locals to their side to do the heavy lifting. Astellan took a whole world with very little help. Once they've started several wars and disrupted normal rule of law they're in.
KayTwo wrote: Lets say that one of a number of possible flees belonging to the different factions of 40k got caught in a warpstorm which deposited them above earth circa 2016. What would each of the factions need to take the planet? Assume that no one realizes that the planet is indeed Holy Terra, 'cause; you know, it still has oceans. How many Guards men would it take? How many SM of the various chapters? Would the Tau simply walk through us? Are the Necrons having a field day? Which faction would have it the easiest? The Hardest?
This sort of a question falls flat very quickly because fundamentally 40k is a Fantasy setting that happens to take place in space, but breaks once reality is applied to it.
For all the extreme technology 40k has, in all honesty in terms of military hardware the real world has stuff that would make the Tau and Eldar look downright primitive. Beyond Visual Range aircraft engagement, real time data coordination across hundreds of units soread over thousands of miles, tanks that can move at highway speeds and kill another tank over 2000 meters away thas also moving at highway speeds with a 95% hit rate on munitions that can penetrate a full meter of hardened steel, artillery that can land within a meter of a designated spot after being fired from 25 miles away, missile systems that can easily track and intercept targets like Drop Pods, etc. Stuff that 40k factions have absolutely no answer or equivalents to because they're all built around Fantasy concepts and, at best, WW2 combat methodologies.
Basically, until you start bringing in spacefleets to just blow up everything, the real world is a whole lot more capable than 40k factions are.
This. Because everyone in 40K is basically a moron.
with Spacefleets, they could destroy earth with no losses, with boots on the ground even an entire chapter house would be outgunned and then some, since a chapter consists of about 1K members, a very small paltry sum and their vehicles while nice are well, rudimentary at best, its their spacefleet which give them the advantage.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: At this point a single squad of 10 Chaos Marines can probably conquer earth in about a month.
Realistically, they'd be dead in a month.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would take an actual army, not a mere squad, to conquer Earth. It would be trivially easy for an actual army to do so. But a squad is no army.
A sorcerer would be enough. Consider how much the world's religions have spread, without a shred of proof. And now a prophet of a new religion appears, except this prophet claims to wield powers granted by his gods, and he can back that claim up in a rather spectacular manner!
It would become a global sensation and cults would amass incredibly quickly.
Ashiraya wrote: A sorcerer would be enough. Consider how much the world's religions have spread, without a shred of proof. And now a prophet of a new religion appears, except this prophet claims to wield powers granted by his gods, and he can back that claim up in a rather spectacular manner!
It would become a global sensation and cults would amass incredibly quickly.
but thats if they had access to the warp, since the warp is not present they would not have access to it.
Ashiraya wrote: A sorcerer would be enough. Consider how much the world's religions have spread, without a shred of proof. And now a prophet of a new religion appears, except this prophet claims to wield powers granted by his gods, and he can back that claim up in a rather spectacular manner!
It would become a global sensation and cults would amass incredibly quickly.
but thats if they had access to the warp, since the warp is not present they would not have access to it.
And giant super soldiers with two hearts and spits acid with handheld rocket launchers doesn't exist either.
In these kind of scenarios you sorta have to take everything as it comes along.
Also for everyone who gave me a snark remark on the "one squad" thing. Daemons. Daemons in your workplace, Daemons in your bed. Daemons in your lunchbox, Daemons just ate Fred. This day in age we have enough crazy people going around in cults that are fake. Like Ashiraya said, if one of them turns out to actually be able to summon daemons and prove it's religion is real, it would have converters flocking to it day and night, regardless of whether or not they're good (also please don't draw actual parallels to specific religions or cults. This is not a politics debate). With enough followers, there would either be a warp gate opening on top of us within the month, or small pockets of IMMORTAL daemons would be popping out everywhere. Yes it's technically not 10 marines that conquered the planet, but 10 marines is all that's needed to start. The planets in 40k fluff that survive Chaos Incursions usually brutally suppresses any Chaos Worship. Can you imagine the US executing someone for having a different religion? The controversy alone would distract us for a good year (not to mention vastly spread the word).
In a similar vein, a single Genestealer finding a horny couple is probably enough to doom us as well. The Imperium might be very trigger happy in executing mutants, but again our modern world would not look kindly upon people that just goes and kills infants that look different.
Considering we are on the cusp of railgun weaponry, aircraft based laser weapons, missiles that fire at ranges beyond anything the 40k universe and its terrible math can conceive of, and we're just developing drone fighter planes and rumored space based weapons I think any sort of ground war would go south real fast for any invaders.
Space Battles they will win though and that is where they crush us. Our space technology is paltry in comparison even the most crude ork void craft.
Gamgee wrote: Considering we are on the cusp of railgun weaponry, aircraft based laser weapons, missiles that fire at ranges beyond anything the 40k universe and its terrible math can conceive of, and we're just developing drone fighter planes and rumored space based weapons I think any sort of ground war would go south real fast for any invaders.
Space Battles they will win though and that is where they crush us. Our space technology is paltry in comparison even the most crude ork void craft.
It's just like Stargate SG-1. The G'ould were miseralbe at actual warfare. They just had orbital bombardment on their side.
Putting aside spacecraft which we probably don't have a solution to, one strong psyker would break this planet. Imagine if someone showed up and could move things with their mind, teleport, ripe thoughts from other people or just blow things up by looking at them. Millions would join that individual in days.
Daemons don't really respond any better to artillery and airstrikes than humans do. And there's just only so many that a mere ten individuals can summon in without getting warp-fethed themselves.
Melissia wrote: Daemons don't really respond any better to artillery and airstrikes than humans do. And there's just only so many that a mere ten individuals can summon in without getting warp-fethed themselves.
Technically, they fare about 33% better.
I don't imagine they just stand around in an open field waiting to get airstruck, in any case. If chaos is going to set up anywhere it's going to be in the underground of major population centers.
Melissia wrote:Daemons don't really respond any better to artillery and airstrikes than humans do. And there's just only so many that a mere ten individuals can summon in without getting warp-fethed themselves.
I never said the 10 marines would be the only ones to summon them. Below is the portion of my quote (that you cut out) highlighting this fact:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:At this point a single squad of 10 Chaos Marines can probably conquer earth in about a month. They wouldn't realistically do it all by themselves, but they would find so many converts and cultists that by next friday night, we'll have daemons coming out of the toilets.
I exaggerated the "By friday night" thing, but realistically it would not be very long before a chaos religion takes hold. Not to mention those Cultists could very well be from sections of our own army.
10 marines charging in guns ablazing and yelling "FOR KAYOSS" at the top of their lungs? Yeah they're going to meet the business end of an Abrams or Leopard very fast. Which is why Rake had a point that it depends on the legions (and why World Eaters probably won't do so hot). Word Bearers and Alpha Legion have the highest success rate because they actually know how to use cultists for this very specific purpose, and arguably Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children and even Deathguard could have some minor success (the former two with temptation, the latter with...well spreading disease).
Ashiraya wrote: A sorcerer would be enough. Consider how much the world's religions have spread, without a shred of proof. And now a prophet of a new religion appears, except this prophet claims to wield powers granted by his gods, and he can back that claim up in a rather spectacular manner!
It would become a global sensation and cults would amass incredibly quickly.
but thats if they had access to the warp, since the warp is not present they would not have access to it.
And giant super soldiers with two hearts and spits acid with handheld rocket launchers doesn't exist either.
In these kind of scenarios you sorta have to take everything as it comes along.
Also for everyone who gave me a snark remark on the "one squad" thing. Daemons. Daemons in your workplace, Daemons in your bed. Daemons in your lunchbox, Daemons just ate Fred. This day in age we have enough crazy people going around in cults that are fake. Like Ashiraya said, if one of them turns out to actually be able to summon daemons and prove it's religion is real, it would have converters flocking to it day and night, regardless of whether or not they're good (also please don't draw actual parallels to specific religions or cults. This is not a politics debate). With enough followers, there would either be a warp gate opening on top of us within the month, or small pockets of IMMORTAL daemons would be popping out everywhere. Yes it's technically not 10 marines that conquered the planet, but 10 marines is all that's needed to start. The planets in 40k fluff that survive Chaos Incursions usually brutally suppresses any Chaos Worship. Can you imagine the US executing someone for having a different religion? The controversy alone would distract us for a good year (not to mention vastly spread the word).
In a similar vein, a single Genestealer finding a horny couple is probably enough to doom us as well. The Imperium might be very trigger happy in executing mutants, but again our modern world would not look kindly upon people that just goes and kills infants that look different.
but i'm going under the assumption that said spacecraft would just get caught in a warp paradox and be belched out by the warp which would dissipate into nothing leaving the ship with no avenue home since if it could, it could gather more forces. now say if Orks landed on Earth in one of their Asteroid rocks, earlier sightings of them would just be attributed sightings of Big Foot or Chupacabra or what have you, in other words some might believe them but not many, and by the time actual proof exists, it would be too late. same could almost be said of Tyranids.
Asterios wrote: but i'm going under the assumption that said spacecraft would just get caught in a warp paradox and be belched out by the warp which would dissipate into nothing leaving the ship with no avenue home since if it could, it could gather more forces. now say if Orks landed on Earth in one of their Asteroid rocks, earlier sightings of them would just be attributed sightings of Big Foot or Chupacabra or what have you, in other words some might believe them but not many, and by the time actual proof exists, it would be too late. same could almost be said of Tyranids.
Again, you sorta need to take it with everything that comes with it. Ork Roks can't travel very far without the Warp either. In fact only the Necrons and Tau don't rely on warp travel, which means if the Warp didn't factor in, then no faction besides those two can even attempt to invade. And that's just the surface implications, not the underlying ones like: Eldar would not be able to repair their stuff (Wraithbone is solidified Psychic Energy, i.e: from the warp), Orks would probably lose their Gestalt Psychic Field. Tyranids might still be able to communicate, but harder, Dark Eldar would be scared stiff since now they probably can't ressurect, etc.
Asterios wrote: but i'm going under the assumption that said spacecraft would just get caught in a warp paradox and be belched out by the warp which would dissipate into nothing leaving the ship with no avenue home since if it could, it could gather more forces. now say if Orks landed on Earth in one of their Asteroid rocks, earlier sightings of them would just be attributed sightings of Big Foot or Chupacabra or what have you, in other words some might believe them but not many, and by the time actual proof exists, it would be too late. same could almost be said of Tyranids.
Again, you sorta need to take it with everything that comes with it. Ork Roks can't travel very far without the Warp either. In fact only the Necrons and Tau don't rely on warp travel, which means if the Warp didn't factor in, then no faction besides those two can even attempt to invade. And that's just the surface implications, not the underlying ones like: Eldar would not be able to repair their stuff (Wraithbone is solidified Psychic Energy, i.e: from the warp), Orks would probably lose their Gestalt Psychic Field. Tyranids might still be able to communicate, but harder, Dark Eldar would be scared stiff since now they probably can't ressurect, etc.
Actually Ork Roks might use the Warp but not directed, which they would be susceptible to such a warp flux, furthermore Tyranids are anti-warp (or did they change that?) , furthermore the Warp is not infinite, the fact the Tau never encountered it at all regardless whether they tried warp travel or not and if the warp is not being used it does not have a strong connection to the area and as seen by the Tyranid can even be blocked, so it is very feasible for a flux in the warp to cause a warp capable ship to be plopped into our universe and dissipate afterwards and not be accessed thereafter. kind of like the old Wayward Sons online Comic.
Asterios wrote: but i'm going under the assumption that said spacecraft would just get caught in a warp paradox and be belched out by the warp which would dissipate into nothing leaving the ship with no avenue home since if it could, it could gather more forces. now say if Orks landed on Earth in one of their Asteroid rocks, earlier sightings of them would just be attributed sightings of Big Foot or Chupacabra or what have you, in other words some might believe them but not many, and by the time actual proof exists, it would be too late. same could almost be said of Tyranids.
Again, you sorta need to take it with everything that comes with it. Ork Roks can't travel very far without the Warp either. In fact only the Necrons and Tau don't rely on warp travel, which means if the Warp didn't factor in, then no faction besides those two can even attempt to invade. And that's just the surface implications, not the underlying ones like: Eldar would not be able to repair their stuff (Wraithbone is solidified Psychic Energy, i.e: from the warp), Orks would probably lose their Gestalt Psychic Field. Tyranids might still be able to communicate, but harder, Dark Eldar would be scared stiff since now they probably can't ressurect, etc.
Actually Ork Roks might use the Warp but not directed, which they would be susceptible to such a warp flux, furthermore Tyranids are anti-warp (or did they change that?) , furthermore the Warp is not infinite, the fact the Tau never encountered it at all regardless whether they tried warp travel or not and if the warp is not being used it does not have a strong connection to the area and as seen by the Tyranid can even be blocked, so it is very feasible for a flux in the warp to cause a warp capable ship to be plopped into our universe and dissipate afterwards and not be accessed thereafter. kind of like the old Wayward Sons online Comic.
Ork Roks are actually more susceptable to your "Warp Flux" phenomenon precisely because they are not guided. Also the reason Tau doesn't use the warp isn't because the Warp somehow doesn't extend into their space, but it's because Tau innately have little to no Warp Presence. Finally, the "Warp Flux" effect you keep talking about is actually common within 40k itself, and Chaos has more control of it over any other faction simply because of their deeper connection to the Warp.
And Tyranids were never "anti-warp", that was the Necron's shtick. If Tyranids were Anti-Warp then the "Shadow In the Warp" effect wouldn't exist (if you read about the actual Shadow in the Warp, it's not them negating warp signals, but rather having so many minds shout within the warp that it drowns out all other signals, kinda like clogging up the bandwidth of your internet connection to the point that nothing functions).
Impossible to say.
40k technology and equipment is made out of things that do not even exist. It is impossible to say whether things like ceramite, ferrocrete and plasteel would be able to be penetrated by our weapons or whether they'd be utterly impervious. Then there is other factors that exist in 40k but not in our world like the Warp, and also things that exist in the real world but not in 40k, like the laws of physics...
Just ignoring all of that and going by 40k fluff, 21st century tech-level worlds are not uncommon. They are primitive and should present little to no opposition to any faction.
But realistically, there is no way to give an answer because 40k is not realistic.
The magic space metals that make up for not having electronic targeting.
I'm never picking the side that doesn't understand how their own stuff works until we reach orbital bombardment. Then they win.
Maybe you should really consider picking up a BL novel for once Martel. All 40k factions have quite advanced targetting technologies (well, except Orks, but they just use more ammo to compensate ). Space Marines even have it inbuilt into their helmets.
One Necron Overlord with access to enough Mindshackle Scarabs to gradually gain access to more influential figures to control. Of all the factions out there, the Necrons would be the ones most interested (besides the Tau) in conquering our planet and integrating it into an Empire.
The magic space metals that make up for not having electronic targeting.
I'm never picking the side that doesn't understand how their own stuff works until we reach orbital bombardment. Then they win.
Maybe you should really consider picking up a BL novel for once Martel. All 40k factions have quite advanced targetting technologies (well, except Orks, but they just use more ammo to compensate ). Space Marines even have it inbuilt into their helmets.
So that explains why they miss 33% of the time, whereas our tanks hit 99% of the time while moving.
Alright, it seems as though the every one agrees that a space fleet would screw earth, so; let's take the fleet out. Transports only. No orbital weapons. A single transport get to land at a loacation of its choosing and then tries to take the planet. I know that most faction arm their transport, so let's assume that those weapons aren't working.
So exactly how many things will be we be taking away from 40k to make us the winner, then? I mean, no offense, but if we have to take out huge elements of the game for us to even have a chance, isn't that just cheat codes at that point?
curran12 wrote: So exactly how many things will be we be taking away from 40k to make us the winner, then? I mean, no offense, but if we have to take out huge elements of the game for us to even have a chance, isn't that just cheat codes at that point?
Just space ships. There's nothing that 1000 marines can do vs a planet's resources.
curran12 wrote: So exactly how many things will be we be taking away from 40k to make us the winner, then? I mean, no offense, but if we have to take out huge elements of the game for us to even have a chance, isn't that just cheat codes at that point?
Just space ships. There's nothing that 1000 marines can do vs a planet's resources.
'Just' space ships. In a space science fantasy setting.
Sorry Martel, but I don't buy it. If we need to cut out huge swathes just to have a chance, we're cheating. And for what reason? I mean, this stuff is fiction, do we really need to pat ourselves on the back for cheating to win against something that doesn't exist?
KayTwo wrote: Alright, it seems as though the every one agrees that a space fleet would screw earth, so; let's take the fleet out. Transports only. No orbital weapons. A single transport get to land at a loacation of its choosing and then tries to take the planet. I know that most faction arm their transport, so let's assume that those weapons aren't working.
1 Transport? only ones who would have a chance are the Orks, it only takes one transport for them to infest a planet.
curran12 wrote: So exactly how many things will be we be taking away from 40k to make us the winner, then? I mean, no offense, but if we have to take out huge elements of the game for us to even have a chance, isn't that just cheat codes at that point?
Just space ships. There's nothing that 1000 marines can do vs a planet's resources.
'Just' space ships. In a space science fantasy setting.
Sorry Martel, but I don't buy it. If we need to cut out huge swathes just to have a chance, we're cheating. And for what reason? I mean, this stuff is fiction, do we really need to pat ourselves on the back for cheating to win against something that doesn't exist?
It's more underscoring how absurd 40K tactics and technology is. It's a retro-future setting with a heavy, heavy emphasis on retro.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Again, 10 Chaos Marines making a cult, or 1 Genestealer (as someone else mentioned).
Even without the Warp, their war machines, or the ability to just nuke the planet from orbit, they can still convert cultists.
And the entire point of the Genestealer cult is to use the society against itself.
in reality Cults would not last long especially cults like theirs, we have such cults now and they are very few and far between, and with the religious zealotry we have now, such cults would most likely be hunted down and destroyed.
Orks and Nids are the only two with any hope of doing anything ..and it would not be fast it would take the better part of a couple centuries..and face it Orks are not interested in conquest..no where do orks conquer they fight and fight and fight them move on when nothing is left to fight ...the rest will not have enough bodies to do anything other than get sniped..
Now bring in a full Marine chapter and its orbital ships and they can obliterate Earth but they cannot hope to bring conquest. Not enough boots on the ground to hold it ..
the only way for 40K universe to conquer this planet would require multiple chapters and IG send detachments of Catachens to take out the Equatorial regions, some SM chapters with Cadians to take out America and Europe and Russia, Salamanders to hit the middle east with some IG's and a whole passel of IG's to hit China with a couple other SM chapters.
barring starships, taking the earth would be impossible at ANY time. Remember that the God Emperor is living here in secret. If he needed to, he could ascend to the throne a couple thousand years early. A genestealer cult, a psyker, or daemons wouldn't stand a chance. and if it was a Chapter of Space Marines, well they would likely take a knee.
With all the new genres of genders being brought up and different religions, it would probably thrive and be supported till it's too late lol. Unlike present day cults where you have to join and be indoctrinated into, these have psyker support and "willing" followers within a few generations. I don't think we would stand a chance at least in the USA.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Again, 10 Chaos Marines making a cult, or 1 Genestealer (as someone else mentioned).
Even without the Warp, their war machines, or the ability to just nuke the planet from orbit, they can still convert cultists.
And the entire point of the Genestealer cult is to use the society against itself.
in reality Cults would not last long especially cults like theirs, we have such cults now and they are very few and far between, and with the religious zealotry we have now, such cults would most likely be hunted down and destroyed.
also the plan is to Conquer, not destroy.
I could give you several examples from past history (the result of which we are still seeing to this day) or even current ones, but that would skirt into political talk and hence why I can't. All I can say is study history and pay close attention to current events. And not just the sensational ones.
On top of that, all of those religions and cults lack one thing the Chaos Marines do: The Marines themselves are physical embodiments of the cult's religion. No religion on earth can compare with that much validation. And this is why the ones I chose convert people. Once you rule the people's minds, there's no need to "hold" the planet. Which is why armies with corrupting influences have the best chances of doing so with minimal resources.
As much as we wish to believe in our innate superiority and invincibility, we are dangerously fragile compared to the stuff in our own fiction. I mean, the Imperium is a galaxy-spanning empire, the Nids and Orks moreso, while Chaos takes the metaphorical cake by not only uniting entire worlds, but metaphysical concepts. We as humans, in over 10,000 years (yes, humanity is that old probably older but that's the oldest reference I can remember back to), haven't even been able to unite under one banner on one planet. In half the lifetime of the Imperium, we couldn't even accomplish a fraction of a percent of what the Imperium does on a daily basis, and the Imperium is the underdog in their own universe. We are boned if anything leaked out from the 40k universe, let alone if we actually exist there.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Again, 10 Chaos Marines making a cult, or 1 Genestealer (as someone else mentioned).
Even without the Warp, their war machines, or the ability to just nuke the planet from orbit, they can still convert cultists.
And the entire point of the Genestealer cult is to use the society against itself.
in reality Cults would not last long especially cults like theirs, we have such cults now and they are very few and far between, and with the religious zealotry we have now, such cults would most likely be hunted down and destroyed.
also the plan is to Conquer, not destroy.
Genestealer cults can wait for centuries slowly infiltrating society and ours is so "accepting" of the different that the odd sighting or reveal would likely be ether covered up or just end up in tabloids as some unfortunate mutant. By the time anyone in power noticed anything there would be multple governments under the sway of the hive mind and they could just cause a world war just to make more confusion to make the conquest easier. They wouldn't stay in one city or country for long they would spread out all over the world.
It would likely take 100-200 years but (barring some very bad luck) it would be inevitable.
it would take as much as need be. The resources and cruelty of the Imperium of Man against those whom dare to oppose it is boundless, we would be beaten senseless and our very way of life would be torn down and replaced by a regime whom would erradicate all manners of free speech and free will.
And that would be the best option, as far as the other horrid factions lurking in the 40k universe are
A massive WAAAGH!! I can see Kommando's cutting communications off within the planet then signaling aerial support to come in and secure the skies for the Orks to make a "proppa" landing. Once that is established the first wave pours out like a flood and wipes out the area of the landing suffering some casualties of it's own. Then another "proppa" landing is established and another wave pours out looking for a fight. After the second wave more and more Orks start showing up and it's just a massive "sea of green".
Side note: When I refer to a "proppa" landing by Ork terms, I mean they just purposefully crash through cities, neighborhoods, small towns, etc.
AnomanderRake wrote: The more dogmatic Imperials would need overwhelming force, I'd think. A Space Marine Chapter that showed up shouting about the Emperor is going to get up and shot, they could handle the situation if they had the fleet but the ground forces alone wouldn't be able to accomplish much.
Well space marines wouldn\t likely get here without at least one ship and one ship is enough to wipe this planet from the orbit. And stopping basic marines would basically require tossing in anti tank missiles at them. Seeing they would be dropping out of sky, do damage and get out fast...
Problem wouldn't be so much conquering planet(easy) but controlling it(harder due to lack of numbers) if they figure they need to control and not just wipe the population off the planet(of which ANY vessel space marines use for space travel would be enough)
xlDuke wrote: 100 fluff marines on foot could do it quickly
Nope.
The reality of Earth does not work by Marine fanboy logic. And "fluff" Marines are wildly divergent, because the fluff has a wide variety of interpretations regarding Space Marines. In some lore, Marines cannot die, kill everyone, are the coolest badass antiheroes ever, the most pure things in the galaxy, super-special-awesome gods of war that why don't you like them, aren't htey the coolest things ever? And in some, they die like guardsmen, TO guardsmen, annihilated quickly by not-quite-overwhelming force. We can't even really say there's a happy medium because the lore is just so divergent, even within single books.
40k works on narrative logic. Earth does not. And it is Earth that's being conquered, not 40k. The world would need to be conquered using a force that makes sense in reality's logic, not narrative logic. A standard Imperial Guard invasion force consisting of a few dozen million guardsmen plus vehicles and equipment would suffice, as would most Ork WAAAGH!s, Tyranid Splinter Fleets, and so on. I hesitate to mention Tyranids or Necrons in this as they would not so much conquer as destroy humanity-- but the thread does say conquer Earth, not conquer Humanity, so fair enough, there. Eldar, if they considered Earth a Maiden World, could very well produce a force capable of conquering Earth, but I just don't see it happening. More likely than not they'd just manipulate us to do something they want us to do so instead, that's more their style. Dark Eldar wouldn't conquer so much as raid and pillage. The Tau might be able to put such a force together, but I don't see why they would when they could just try to form a treaty with us, instead. Space Marines and Sisters of Battle likely wouldn't last very long without Imperial Guard support-- if you put the entirety of the population of either one, they'd stand a chance, but a single chapter or order would have limited success before being worn down and destroyed, or being allowed to retreat. And so on and so forth.
Cultists and Genestealers would not conquer Earth, they would subvert it. That is not what was asked for in the original post. Daemons would not like it on Earth, no psykers to feed off of, and there's no guarantee that Earth's soulstuff works the same as 40k's soulstuff (if it even exists). They might be able to conquer Earth if enough were summoned at once, and they had some way to maintain the summoning without easy access to psychic power-- but it'd be by far the most difficult conquest out of any of the possibilities I mentioned above. And more than likely, I think that Daemons would simply be unable to maintain stability within the realspace of our reality for the amount of time needed to conquer us, which would likely be decades-- out of all of the factions, daemons would be the most strongly opposed by the modern population of Earth, as it would likely cause a religious fervor that would unite most of humanity in opposition, and not just from Judeo-Christian populations.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow that's a lot of edits. But yeah.
Remember that 'Stealer cults are a distortion of the Imperial Truth, whos to say that Cultists in our day and age would react the same? It's more likely they'd adapt to better blend into society, and as others have said try infiltrate the military. And I believe that a perfectly co-ordinated terrorist group that can co-opt anyone they get their hands on could easily bring the world to it's knees. It'd all depend on how fast they were discovered and how fast technology can adapt to be gene-coded. I imagine it'd end up being a lot like an X-com game, with Stealers in charge and the rebels fighting against them.
space marine chapters don't CONQUER planets. even when they're credited with it a lot of other work is done.
Let's go over the hows shall we?
Space Marines will show up in orbit. likely we'll figure out they're there. a strike cruiser is a BIIIIIIIIG ship, over a kilometer in length (closed figure I can find is about 4.5 KM), however they can also deploy VERY swiftly, within 20 minutes of arrival. so chances are by time the assault begins the president etc'll still be being briefed. the space marines wouldn't engage in a stand up battle. that's not their strength. they'd drop pod in and strike key strategic targets. C&C centers that sort of thing. remember when I said about the president being briefed? yeah he'd be facing down a squad of terminators.
anyway while all the command locals they could find are destroyed. the Imperial Guard would show up and begin deploying. while the IG is handling the boring legwork of taking and holding, while they're doing that the marines are regrouping in thunderhawks being deployed to hit other targets of hard resistance.
Gamgee wrote: Also it annoys me when people say the space marines are like commando's. No they aren't. Not even close. They operate more like shock troops.
The Deathwatch are the commando's, seals, and spetznaz ect.
If we're going to dig into technicalities here I suggest you look into the history of the word 'commando'. You may find more shock troops than you'd think.
Cultists and Genestealers would not conquer Earth, they would subvert it. That is not what was asked for in the original post..
Would you mind quoting that from the OP? Because I don't see the word conquer anywhere, I see the words ''Take the planet'', which can reasonably be interpreted as subverting enough of the population to make a civil war viable.
Gamgee wrote: Also it annoys me when people say the space marines are like commando's. No they aren't. Not even close. They operate more like shock troops.
The Deathwatch are the commando's, seals, and spetznaz ect.
If we're going to dig into technicalities here I suggest you look into the history of the word 'commando'. You may find more shock troops than you'd think.
Semantics aside you know what I mean. The military has different levels of trained soldiers. Your ordinary ground forces, some shock troops to assist in taking objectives and high risk battlefields, and then your special forces to do very precise strikes or even missions that might not be on conventional battlefields. Rangers are a good example of a shock trooper style force they operate at platoon levels and are integrated into the main military to assist in battles. They use their more elite training and equipment to their advantage to assist the main bulk forces. Seals by contrast are usually deployed in small squads or even less and are not normally known to be used on front line roles. The seals are known for their covert operations. They also need to learn far more than the rangers do and have a very high wash out rate.
if we go by tabletop rule most of our basic guns would be S2 with the stuff with heavy pen power being S3. Anything smaller than something that gets dropped our launched would top out somewhere in high S5 a tactical nuke might manage S9-10 but only just. Oh, and garbage AP all around. Besides this isn't really theoretical right? I mean they wipe out civilizations our level pretty regularly in both 30k and 40k.
ERJAK wrote: if we go by tabletop rule most of our basic guns would be S2
Or...you know, S3, because GW explicitly describes bullet throwing intermediate caliber weapons as such.
with the stuff with heavy pen power being S3
Or...maybe S4 like Heavy Stubbers?
Anything smaller than something that gets dropped our launched would top out somewhere in high S5
Modern day weapons in the game like Autocannons and infantry carried missiles and the like would disagree. Those primitive WW1 designed DKoK Heavy Mortars are S6 and we have guns like those over a hundred years ago.
a tactical nuke might manage S9-10 but only just.
Wait wat? Where on earth are you inventing that headcannon?
Oh, and garbage AP all around. Besides this isn't really theoretical right? I mean they wipe out civilizations our level pretty regularly in both 30k and 40k.
The real world also has technology that would put the Eldar and Tau to shame. Nobody in 40k can fight beyond visual range like modern fighters can. Nobody in 40k has tanks that can move at highway speeds and hit other tanks thousands of meters away with literally 90/95% hit rates with weapons that can penetrate a full meter of hardened steel. Nobody in 40k has anything resembling cruise missiles, GPS guided artillery, or any number of thousands of other things developed since WW2.
And have you *seen* a Land Raider? A shopping mall parking lot speed bump would stop one of those things with its nonexistent ground clearance.
40k is a medieval Fantasy universe with a SciFi skin and represented by WW2 battle tactics at its most advanced.
They wouldn't need an army. They have the gravity well, anyone who controls the gravity well controls the planet. They could simply drop rocks on us until we comply. One country giving more problems than others, drop a bigger rock, and the other problem children will step into line. There isn't a single faction in the game that would care about collateral damage including the Tau.
Vaktathi wrote: The real world also has technology that would put the Eldar and Tau to shame.
The opposite is also true. . . starships, antigrav. Even just Lasguns.
Vaktathi wrote: Nobody in 40k can fight beyond visual range like modern fighters can.
All 40K starships fight beyond visual range, as do orbital and ground defenses. I'm not up to all the details on their fighters, but there's probably some fluff that says otherwise.
Vaktathi wrote: Nobody in 40k has tanks that can move at highway speeds and hit other tanks thousands of meters away with literally 90/95% hit rates with weapons that can penetrate a full meter of hardened steel.
Actually Eldar might. Those grav tanks aren't that fast on the tabletop but in the fluff they are faster.
Vaktathi wrote: Nobody in 40k has anything resembling cruise missiles, GPS guided artillery, or any number of thousands of other things developed since WW2.
Maybe? I think Manticore missiles are pretty sophisticated, don't they have a skyfire version? What counts as "resembling" a cruise missile? A melta torpedo from space? A Deathstrike missile?
Also, much of those particular advances since WWII are about reducing collateral damage. The Imperium tends to give zero ****s about collateral damage.
Two things I find a lot of "pro-earth" people say that is somewhat ridiculous in context of this argument: Ignoring the fundimental laws of the 40k universe and redefining what is "conquered"
First off, the basic laws of the 40k universe: Stuff like the Warp, ridiculously short gun ranges, power armor, and averting the square-cube law are basic fundimental laws needed for the 40k universe to exist. Taking these away is essentially nerfing them on a cosmic scale. The comically short gun ranges from the tabletop game and their pisspoor hit ratios aren't actually a literal representation of their skills; they're there so things have a reasonable chance of missing and our table sizes don't become massive. These things should not be held against them. Conversely, the Warp is a fundimental aspect of 40k, not just in lore. Flat out ignoring it is like saying Earth can't have Electricity or the concept of combustion. We would be screwed if that happened and yet we have no problem imposing the same handicap on our invaders in a theoretical battle. If we're gonna win, it should be without handicapping the enemy from the getgo.
Second, the dictionary defines Conquer as "overcome and take control of (a place or people) by use of military force.". This means that they simply take control of our planet. While yes, this means orbital bombardment technically means that no one has control anymore, in the end they are still the victors and we no longer have control of our own planet. Similarly, if a Cult springs up and becomes the most popular religion or Daemons become the alpha-predators of our world, then we would have lost control and the cult/daemons/whatever have obviously gained control. Whether or not we are alive, have free will or whatever doesn't matter, the world is theirs in such a scenario. The Earth is theirs. This happens the moment they become the top authority on the planet. Being able to destroy it with impunity (and thus wiping out all other competition), controlling the minds of all the inhabitants of the world, or simply eliminating us as the alpha-species would pretty much fit that definition, no matter what kind of semantics you play at.
I'm pointing this out because it's becoming increasingly more ridiculous at the criteria that the 40k universe has to meet to consider "conquering" our planet. Currently, by the responses in this post, they have to:
Not kill everyone (apparently a dead planet isn't a conquered planet)
Not change people's thoughts (because that's subverting a planet, not conquering it)
Not being allowed to assimilate us into their faction (again, it's only a subversion, not "conquer")
Not allowed to replace us as the dominant species (again, apparently it means we're just dead, not conquered)
Not allowed to have any resistance groups (because apparently any pocket of us normal humans left would invalidate it being "conquered")
This essentially leaves our "conquerers" with one valid, but extremely narrow, definition for their victory: They have to enslave us as a race without the use of coercion or anything beyond non-lethal violence. But we have no problem shooting back. And they have lost one of the fundimental laws of their own universe to boot. The sheer amount of limitations imposed on them is hilarious, none of which are logical and quite a few are only "no you can't do this because I say so" rather than be an actual physical limitation of theirs. When the apocalypse does come, rule-lawyering what their definition of a "success" is going to mean diddly squat when they've destroyed or taken control of our government, rendered our species dangerously endangered, and polluted our skies so much that black smog would be considered a good day.
The 40k universe isn't what's being conquered therefor it doesn't matter.
When you are attacking a mountain, you cannot say "I wish this mountain was a forest, because then I'd do REALLY well!" and expect the mountain to suddenly drop in to the ground and grow trees.
The 40k universe isn't what's being conquered therefor it doesn't matter.
When you are attacking a mountain, you cannot say "I wish this mountain was a forest, because then I'd do REALLY well!" and expect the mountain to suddenly drop in to the ground and grow trees.
But by the same logic you can't put a great white shark vs a pool full of toddlers and then say the shark isn't allowed to bite ... just cause.
What I am saying is if you are having any thing coming vs us from 40k it should be at its full effectiveness not gimpped cause we want a fighting chance. I still say one genestealer would do it.
The 40k universe isn't what's being conquered therefor it doesn't matter.
When you are attacking a mountain, you cannot say "I wish this mountain was a forest, because then I'd do REALLY well!" and expect the mountain to suddenly drop in to the ground and grow trees.
That analogy doesn't relate at all to my response. 40k is still attacking our planet. We didn't lose anything, we still abide by our conventions.
The analogy works better if I'm attacking the mountain and the mountain says "you don't have legs anymore" and proceeded to claim victory because I wasn't even able to approach it.
Another thing a lot of people forget is a war (and conquest by extension) isn't just "beat the other guy senselss". It's to make the other guy submit and surrender. Total Annhilation is only a resort if they stubbornly refuse.
This is why orbital bombardment is basically a trump card; you don't use it to pulverize the ground flat. You use it to target their military leadership, their industrial sectors, food production, and logistics. Since we do not have any way to prevent such an orbital attack, they can basically dictate how to fight this war by taking away everything piecemeal. Small bombardments can take out roads, runways and drydocks, making it impossible to ship foodstuffs and fuel to battlezones. Large bombardments can take out city centers, the most likely areas of production, and military bases. Long before we even get to mobilize any of it.
With little military hardware, no means to produce food, and a severely crippled government and infrastructure, it won't be long before people riot. Hell we're rioting right now for (comparatively) comical reasons, can you imagine how big those riots would be when starvation and illnesses become creditable, lethal threats and our livelihoods are completely ruined? And none of these factions abide by the Geneva conventions, they would take every opportunity to attack our injured and infirmed. After that they simply need to send in pacification squads to take out anyone capable of reuniting the people until our spirits are either broken or have submitted.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Another thing a lot of people forget is a war (and conquest by extension) isn't just "beat the other guy senselss". It's to make the other guy submit and surrender. Total Annhilation is only a resort if they stubbornly refuse.
This is why orbital bombardment is basically a trump card; you don't use it to pulverize the ground flat. You use it to target their military leadership, their industrial sectors, food production, and logistics. Since we do not have any way to prevent such an orbital attack, they can basically dictate how to fight this war by taking away everything piecemeal. Small bombardments can take out roads, runways and drydocks, making it impossible to ship foodstuffs and fuel to battlezones. Large bombardments can take out city centers, the most likely areas of production, and military bases. Long before we even get to mobilize any of it.
With little military hardware, no means to produce food, and a severely crippled government and infrastructure, it won't be long before people riot. Hell we're rioting right now for (comparatively) comical reasons, can you imagine how big those riots would be when starvation and illnesses become creditable, lethal threats and our livelihoods are completely ruined? And none of these factions abide by the Geneva conventions, they would take every opportunity to attack our injured and infirmed. After that they simply need to send in pacification squads to take out anyone capable of reuniting the people until our spirits are either broken or have submitted.
problem is such bombardment would hit most of America and Europe, there is not much in the way of empty, unusable land in those areas, Japan would become a dust mote, China would be razed, countries which would be little effected by such bombardment would be most of Africa and Australia and the empty lands in the Middle East and a good chunk of Russia not covered by military bases and such.
The imperium alone has orbital bombardments of varying sizes specifically for tactical and strategic levels of devastation. They can limit the devastation to a mere city block if they wished it. (Space Marine Orbital Strikes are one such example). The kind you're refering to is only used for exterminatus-level of devastation, and even then it's not just a single bombardment; often they need to use multiple warheads to achieve that result.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: The imperium alone has orbital bombardments of varying sizes specifically for tactical and strategic levels of devastation. They can limit the devastation to a mere city block if they wished it. (Space Marine Orbital Strikes are one such example). The kind you're refering to is only used for exterminatus-level of devastation, and even then it's not just a single bombardment; often they need to use multiple warheads to achieve that result.
and i repeat you stated it would be used to take out military leadership, which is any military instillation, food production which includes farms and such and industrial sectors, look at Japan or the USA or even Europe, how much land is not covered by such things? and how much of that land covered by such things is inhabited as in how much of a population? populations gather around such things for a reason, you target them you are essentially wiping out the population too. and there ends your riots since the much smaller population locations probably could self sustain themselves as is.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Another thing a lot of people forget is a war (and conquest by extension) isn't just "beat the other guy senselss". It's to make the other guy submit and surrender. Total Annhilation is only a resort if they stubbornly refuse.
This is why orbital bombardment is basically a trump card; you don't use it to pulverize the ground flat. You use it to target their military leadership, their industrial sectors, food production, and logistics. Since we do not have any way to prevent such an orbital attack, they can basically dictate how to fight this war by taking away everything piecemeal. Small bombardments can take out roads, runways and drydocks, making it impossible to ship foodstuffs and fuel to battlezones. Large bombardments can take out city centers, the most likely areas of production, and military bases. Long before we even get to mobilize any of it.
With little military hardware, no means to produce food, and a severely crippled government and infrastructure, it won't be long before people riot. Hell we're rioting right now for (comparatively) comical reasons, can you imagine how big those riots would be when starvation and illnesses become creditable, lethal threats and our livelihoods are completely ruined? And none of these factions abide by the Geneva conventions, they would take every opportunity to attack our injured and infirmed. After that they simply need to send in pacification squads to take out anyone capable of reuniting the people until our spirits are either broken or have submitted.
Exactly.
This is the deal, say Marines show up. We can do this the easy way, or the hard way.
1: The easy way.
Marine send an envoy down to meet the planetary governorship. They could meet with everybody, or maybe just one. For this example they start with the US.
Envoy: "We have a number of Starships in orbit, and their weapons are trained on your major population centers. You are now part of the greater Galactic Imperium. There are a thousand worlds ready to open trade routes with you if you want access to our technology and culture. If you decline inclusion to the Imperium, there will be war. If you kill me, take me prisoner, or in any way disallow me to return to my craft in the next 30 min, we will open fire on one of your population centers."
U.S. Leadership: Uhh. . . freedom?
Envoy: "You can rule in any way that you please, as long as your world in able to meet our tithes required of your local sector, based on your population and industrial capacity. In an undetermined number of years an Ecclesiarchy envoy will contact you, and provide you with the Imperial Creed (U.S. Leadership: "wtf?"). If you agree to our terms you have ten years to meet the appropriate tithes given by the local Sector Envoy, unless the Sector Envoy says otherwise. Do you agree?"
U.S. Ummmm. . . Ok.
2. (The hard way)
U.S. Leadership: No, we do not agree. This is outrageous!
Envoy: "That is disappointing. We will give you 24 hours to change your mind. In six hours, we will begin sinking your navy fleets. If you change your mind within that 24 hour period, we will still negotiate with you and leave your government intact. After 24 hours, we will contact either Russia or China, I'm sure they will be more accommodating."
U.S. remains stubborn. Fleets are sunk. Obvious military aircraft bases are destroyed. No Marine even sets foot on the ground, it's all done from orbit.
Marines then send one envoy to China, and one Envoy to Russia.
Envoy: "So, how do the words 'Planetary Governorship' sound to you?"
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Another thing a lot of people forget is a war (and conquest by extension) isn't just "beat the other guy senselss". It's to make the other guy submit and surrender. Total Annhilation is only a resort if they stubbornly refuse.
This is why orbital bombardment is basically a trump card; you don't use it to pulverize the ground flat. You use it to target their military leadership, their industrial sectors, food production, and logistics. Since we do not have any way to prevent such an orbital attack, they can basically dictate how to fight this war by taking away everything piecemeal. Small bombardments can take out roads, runways and drydocks, making it impossible to ship foodstuffs and fuel to battlezones. Large bombardments can take out city centers, the most likely areas of production, and military bases. Long before we even get to mobilize any of it.
With little military hardware, no means to produce food, and a severely crippled government and infrastructure, it won't be long before people riot. Hell we're rioting right now for (comparatively) comical reasons, can you imagine how big those riots would be when starvation and illnesses become creditable, lethal threats and our livelihoods are completely ruined? And none of these factions abide by the Geneva conventions, they would take every opportunity to attack our injured and infirmed. After that they simply need to send in pacification squads to take out anyone capable of reuniting the people until our spirits are either broken or have submitted.
Exactly.
This is the deal, say Marines show up. We can do this the easy way, or the hard way.
1: The easy way.
Marine send an envoy down to meet the planetary governorship. They could meet with everybody, or maybe just one. For this example they start with the US.
Envoy: "We have a number of Starships in orbit, and their weapons are trained on your major population centers. You are now part of the greater Galactic Imperium. There are a thousand worlds ready to open trade routes with you if you want access to our technology and culture. If you decline inclusion to the Imperium, there will be war. If you kill me, take me prisoner, or in any way disallow me to return to my craft in the next 30 min, we will open fire on one of your population centers."
U.S. Leadership: Uhh. . . freedom?
Envoy: "You can rule in any way that you please, as long as your world in able to meet our tithes required of your local sector, based on your population and industrial capacity. In an undetermined number of years an Ecclesiarchy envoy will contact you, and provide you with the Imperial creed (U.S. Leadership: "wtf?"). If you agree to our terms you have ten years to meet the appropriate tithes given by the Sector envoy, unless the Sector Envoy says otherwise. Do you agree?"
U.S. Ummmm. . . Ok.
2. (The hard way)
U.S. Leadership: No, we do not agree. This is outrageous!
Envoy: "That is disappointing. We will give you 24 hours to change your mind. In six hours, we will begin sinking your navy fleets. If you change your mind within that 24 hour period, we will still negotiate with you and leave your government intact. After 24 hours, we will contact either Russia or China, I'm sure they will be more accommodating."
U.S. remains stubborn. Fleets are sunk. Obvious military aircraft bases are destroyed. No Marine even sets foot on the ground, it's all done from orbit.
Marines then send one envoy to China, and one Envoy to Russia.
Envoy: "So, how do the words "Planetary governorship sound to you?"
obviously you miss the whole point of what the 40K universe is about, its not so easy, there is only one religion, the religion of the God Emperor on his golden Throne and thats it, anything else is sedition and up for exterminatus, in fact the SM's wouldn't even bother with negotiations or such, they would just wipe us out from orbit as being tainted.
obviously you miss the whole point of what the 40K universe is about, its not so easy, there is only one religion, the religion of the God Emperor on his golden Throne and thats it, anything else is sedition and up for exterminatus, in fact the SM's wouldn't even bother with negotiations or such, they would just wipe us out from orbit as being tainted.
Then you aren't reading all the fiction. Some Chapters are more viscous than others. What I gave is the "nice approach", the way Ultramarines (who prefer to leave worlds intact and capable) might go about it. Black Templars? I'm sure they would be more prone to just start firing.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: The imperium alone has orbital bombardments of varying sizes specifically for tactical and strategic levels of devastation. They can limit the devastation to a mere city block if they wished it. (Space Marine Orbital Strikes are one such example). The kind you're refering to is only used for exterminatus-level of devastation, and even then it's not just a single bombardment; often they need to use multiple warheads to achieve that result.
and i repeat you stated it would be used to take out military leadership, which is any military instillation, food production which includes farms and such and industrial sectors, look at Japan or the USA or even Europe, how much land is not covered by such things? and how much of that land covered by such things is inhabited as in how much of a population? populations gather around such things for a reason, you target them you are essentially wiping out the population too. and there ends your riots since the much smaller population locations probably could self sustain themselves as is.
I question whether or not you know how much area those things cover, as there's a specific reason why you don't have condo high-rises right next to military installations, food farms and industrial sectors; Military Installations would be the first place people expect to be struck during an attack and in the case of places where they keep high-tech hardware, they specifically DON'T want anyone to just peak over a fence to see what shiny toys they have, which is why they're generally in isolated areas.
Food Production requires vast amounts of land. Land that can't hold people because food is grown there and livestock are raised.
And Industrial sectors are called that for a reason; they're entire Sectors that are dedicated to industry; they require vast amounts of space for the hardware to do so, generate lots of waste and noise (so few people like to actually live next to them) and often are clustered with other industrial buildings to maximize efficiency. A large amount of the workers commute in to them specifically because you can't live next to them.
Another thing is this tactic isn't new. It's exactly what current armies use. In fact look at the nukes dropped during WW2; they're by far some of the most devastating weapons we've got and even those ancient things were bigger than Space Marine Strike Cruiser Bombardments (much bigger since they can level entire cities, as oppose to only city blocks).
Finally, you greatly exaggerate how people can self sustain themselves. To illustrate, how many of you actually know how to slaughter a chicken? And that's just properly killing it so you don't suffer poisoning from contamination from it's waste. You still need to catch it, or even just find it. Or crops; how many of us actually know how to properly plant something so it can bear enough fruit to actually eat? if you think food production would be as easy as digging a hole, tossing in a seed and dumping some water on it, you wouldn't last very long in such a scenario. As an exercise, see if you can gather, from your own group of friend, at least one person who would know how to make a shirt from scratch, how to build a stable shelter that can stand up to a rain storm, and how to properly catch game and slaughter it for human consumption.
obviously you miss the whole point of what the 40K universe is about, its not so easy, there is only one religion, the religion of the God Emperor on his golden Throne and thats it, anything else is sedition and up for exterminatus, in fact the SM's wouldn't even bother with negotiations or such, they would just wipe us out from orbit as being tainted.
Then you aren't reading all the fiction. Some Chapters are more viscous than others. What I gave is the "nice approach", the way Ultramarines (who prefer to leave worlds intact and capable) might go about it. Black Templars? I'm sure they would be more prone to just start firing.
the Space Marines can be equated with groups like ISIS, The Catholic Church during the crusades or the Spanish Inquisition you attribute too much mercy to very strict troops.
Finally, you greatly exaggerate how people can self sustain themselves. To illustrate, how many of you actually know how to slaughter a chicken? And that's just properly killing it so you don't suffer poisoning from contamination from it's waste. You still need to catch it, or even just find it. Or crops; how many of us actually know how to properly plant something so it can bear enough fruit to actually eat? if you think food production would be as easy as digging a hole, tossing in a seed and dumping some water on it, you wouldn't last very long in such a scenario. As an exercise, see if you can gather, from your own group of friend, at least one person who would know how to make a shirt from scratch, how to build a stable shelter that can stand up to a rain storm, and how to properly catch game and slaughter it for human consumption.
I can do all that and i'm not very proficient in such things, grow my own herbs and couple of citrus trees and such at my house, know how to handle animals for cooking and so on and so on, now the younger generation might be bereft of such skills, but my generation probably would not find any of that strenuous nor taxing.
Finally, you greatly exaggerate how people can self sustain themselves. To illustrate, how many of you actually know how to slaughter a chicken? And that's just properly killing it so you don't suffer poisoning from contamination from it's waste. You still need to catch it, or even just find it. Or crops; how many of us actually know how to properly plant something so it can bear enough fruit to actually eat? if you think food production would be as easy as digging a hole, tossing in a seed and dumping some water on it, you wouldn't last very long in such a scenario. As an exercise, see if you can gather, from your own group of friend, at least one person who would know how to make a shirt from scratch, how to build a stable shelter that can stand up to a rain storm, and how to properly catch game and slaughter it for human consumption.
I can do all that and i'm not very proficient in such things, grow my own herbs and couple of citrus trees and such at my house, know how to handle animals for cooking and so on and so on, now the younger generation might be bereft of such skills, but my generation probably would not find any of that strenuous nor taxing.
I said "How many", not "can you do it". One person is not enough to feed a community.
Finally, you greatly exaggerate how people can self sustain themselves. To illustrate, how many of you actually know how to slaughter a chicken? And that's just properly killing it so you don't suffer poisoning from contamination from it's waste. You still need to catch it, or even just find it. Or crops; how many of us actually know how to properly plant something so it can bear enough fruit to actually eat? if you think food production would be as easy as digging a hole, tossing in a seed and dumping some water on it, you wouldn't last very long in such a scenario. As an exercise, see if you can gather, from your own group of friend, at least one person who would know how to make a shirt from scratch, how to build a stable shelter that can stand up to a rain storm, and how to properly catch game and slaughter it for human consumption.
I can do all that and i'm not very proficient in such things, grow my own herbs and couple of citrus trees and such at my house, know how to handle animals for cooking and so on and so on, now the younger generation might be bereft of such skills, but my generation probably would not find any of that strenuous nor taxing.
I said "How many", not "can you do it". One person is not enough to feed a community.
Also forgot too mention even in todays society with smart bombs and such, there are still civilian casualties and most small communities that would survive would have a basic understanding of surviving on their own.
There are a bunch of "crazy survivalists" that nonetheless do know how to fend for themselves. But the majority of the population does not (the fact that the term "crazy survivalist" even exists shows our mentality as a society towards such attitudes). The exercise I brought up specifically challenges you to see how many of your friends actually knows how to do those things, then you compare it with the total number of people you actually know (not just friends, everyone). Then you'd get an idea of just how low the percentage of people who are actually self-sustainable are. You yourself even admitted people of the younger generation (most likely my generation and younger) would be "bereft of such skills".
This means that many of them would not be dead from the initial attack, but have to slowly come to the realization that they will die a miserable and slow death, which is why they would riot, causing further chaos.
EDIT: Also yes, being keenly aware that my generation would be screwed without the elder generation's handholding is not a comforting thought in the slightest, which is why I'm currently in the process of learning how to do basic repairs on equipment, hunting and farming techniques, if only to calm the mind.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: There are a bunch of "crazy survivalists" that nonetheless do know how to fend for themselves. But the majority of the population does not (the fact that the term "crazy survivalist" even exists shows our mentality as a society towards such attitudes). The exercise I brought up specifically challenges you to see how many of your friends actually knows how to do those things, then you compare it with the total number of people you actually know (not just friends, everyone). Then you'd get an idea of just how low the percentage of people who are actually self-sustainable are. You yourself even admitted people of the younger generation (most likely my generation and younger) would be "bereft of such skills".
This means that many of them would not be dead from the initial attack, but have to slowly come to the realization that they will die a miserable and slow death, which is why they would riot, causing further chaos.
EDIT: Also yes, being keenly aware that my generation would be screwed without the elder generation's handholding is not a comforting thought in the slightest, which is why I'm currently in the process of learning how to do basic repairs on equipment, hunting and farming techniques, if only to calm the mind.
Survivalists have been losing the crazy term, albeit there are some that are crazy, but with the increase of survival shows and survival product sales, it would tend to think that more are now prepared then ever before, most of my friends are like me, we are not survivalists, but we could survive I know certain herbs which are medicinal in nature and fishing is a simple skill and basic understanding of surviving along with most of my friends, cannot say all of them cause its not a topic that usually comes up, I have a 2 month supply of that god awful survival food that lasts for decades for 4 people, I have spare items if needed and so forth, but these are basic things even the government says you should keep on hand.
as to the younger generation not saying they are stupid or idiots, but that their brains are hard wired in other ways towards electronics and such, and any good invasion would include ECM pulses and such to wipe out all electronics so most of those skills would be useless if such an attack occured.
Vaktathi wrote: The real world also has technology that would put the Eldar and Tau to shame.
The opposite is also true. . . starships, antigrav. Even just Lasguns.
Sure, but a lot of that is somewhat misleading. Lasguns dont offer any new tactical capability that a 70 year old Kalashnikov does not (and, more to the point, Lasgun functionality in 40k is portrayed nothing like how laser devices function in reality, but instead follow the Star Wars model of just replacing a lead bullet with a bright red light bolt and otherwise operating like a modern firearm ). Likewise, 40k starships operate in manners more akin to 18th century Age of Sail methods, both in ship functions and tactical operation, than modern day warships do. Indentured crew turn turrets and load shells by hand in chain gangs and the like, stuff that simply would not function on an actual starship. Even antigrav, as its used and described in 40k, at best just replicates Helicopter capabilities.
Vaktathi wrote: Nobody in 40k can fight beyond visual range like modern fighters can.
All 40K starships fight beyond visual range, as do orbital and ground defenses.
Not really what I meant. Those things by definition operate beyond visual range.
I'm not up to all the details on their fighters, but there's probably some fluff that says otherwise.
I certainly have never seen any, its pretty much all WW2 style dogfighting with guns of various sorts, while missiles, when used, are used at close visual ranges, there's nothing like an AWACS coordinating fighter movements and tracking sensor contacts and feeding targeting data to fighters so they can engage targets 150 miles away.
Actually Eldar might. Those grav tanks aren't that fast on the tabletop but in the fluff they are faster.
They probably have the speed, but nothing near the firepower and target engagement capabilities, at least not that I can find or recall any examples of.
Vaktathi wrote: Nobody in 40k has anything resembling cruise missiles, GPS guided artillery, or any number of thousands of other things developed since WW2.
Maybe? I think Manticore missiles are pretty sophisticated, don't they have a skyfire version? What counts as "resembling" a cruise missile? A melta torpedo from space? A Deathstrike missile?
Something akin to a Tomahawk, something that can be fired from a large aircraft, a ship, a submarine, or a ground installation at a target a couple hundred miles away and intended to destroy a high value but immobile or relatively slow moving targets like warships or a slow convoy or airfield hangers or bridges.
Deathstrike really is more of an intermediate range ballistic missile that got hamfisted into a front line artillery role for...reasons. Manticore missiles might be the closest thing but arent really quite there, and are apparently extremely unreliable and tempermental weapons.
Also, much of those particular advances since WWII are about reducing collateral damage. The Imperium tends to give zero ****s about collateral damage.
Hrm, theyre not so much about reducing collateral damage as ensuring you actually hit what youre aiming at. WW1 and WW2 bombing raids would routinely devastate areas and simultaneously completely miss what they were actually trying to bomb, often by many miles. If you can send one plane with one bomb and have a 95% hit rate to do the job, thats a far more effective weapons system than sending a fleet of bombers with tens of thousands of bombs with a collective 30% hit rate combined. That collateral damage is reduced is a happy coincidence.
Survivalist TV shows is something of a mixed-bag for me, because I have seen people think that just because they watched a few of those that they are capable of living in the wild (which is woefully untrue, since like any other skill it's not something you get instantly by just reading manuals)
And as someone from one of the younger generations, city-folk are comically inept without electronics. My lil sis does actually go a bit crazy if she doesn't have her phone fully charged and with signal.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Survivalist TV shows is something of a mixed-bag for me, because I have seen people think that just because they watched a few of those that they are capable of living in the wild (which is woefully untrue, since like any other skill it's not something you get instantly by just reading manuals)
And as someone from one of the younger generations, city-folk are comically inept without electronics. My lil sis does actually go a bit crazy if she doesn't have her phone fully charged and with signal.
could you imagine the chaos that would occur if the internet went down the world over? who needs to bomb things, wipe out the internet and chaos would follow.
as too some survival shows, look at Bear Gryllis, during his shows when he was supposed to be roughing it or surviving in the wilderness he was staying in a cushy hotel.
as to survival skills some basic skills were taught in things like the Boy Scouts and you earned badges for it, now some of the badges you could earn in the Boy Scouts makes me want to wonder what the feth?
The thing is, our missile tracking and beyond visual range engagement methods wouldn't work against Eldar fighters, because they all have Holo-Fields, which explicitly jam any kind of tracking devices, including ones that use a wider spectrum than our own, and make it effectively impossible to target the vehicle. Their fighters are also capable of ridiculous manoeuvres that make dogfighting perfectly viable and have superhuman pilots with interfacing methods that allow far easier and more responsive control of the plane. To give an example of one such advantage - our most modern planes can possibly reach double-digit g-forces if they're built for it. Eldar Nightwings have pulled off manoeuvres in their novel appearances that have been calculated at 11,000 g's.
Looking at things in a vacuum, sure, they do things that don't make sense to us with our understanding of science and military tactics. But they don't operate by the same rules we do, and a lot of unviable tactics or delivery methods suddenly become a lot less so when you aren't necessarily bound by the laws of physics as we understand them.
I don't know, I think the limitations of the table top game should come into the play here because that is the purpose for the fluff/lore to exist. Units on a 40K battlefield generally need to be relative close together to engage one another. That's for the sake of gameplay obviously but the flavor of combat is in stark contrast to modern tactics which prioritize staying as far away from your enemy as possible, or be undetected, while inflicting maximum damage.
Also, modern nuclear weapons would likely take a toll on a 40K army ground force. Considering that a Space Marine Bolter is basically a hand held .50 caliber sub machinegun , at Strength 4 Ap 5, a nuclear weapon would be magnitudes higher in power, possilby D strength. In addition, using the Bolter as a comparison, modern missile technology could easily be Str7-9 Ap 3. Armies of the modern world have large quantites of these missiles ready to go at any given moment. Long range attacks from missiles and nuclear weapons would pose the biggest threat to any 40K army invasion force.
I would agree, though, that any combat in really close vicinty, would go to almost any army in 40K, if we were going to leave out missiles, modern aircraft airstrikes, etc.
With that said, the best option for an invading force would be to stay in space with their spacecraft and do their conquering from there, since they would have a huge and inequtiable edge against comparatively fledging modern space capabilities.
The thing is, our missile tracking and beyond visual range engagement methods wouldn't work against Eldar fighters, because they all have Holo-Fields, which explicitly jam any kind of tracking devices, including ones that use a wider spectrum than our own, and make it effectively impossible to target the vehicle.
That doesn't seem to stop other munitions, both guided and unguided from successfully engaging the Eldar in the 40k universe, often many extremely primitive ones, it just means they miss more. Holofields are far from foolproof. They're not perfect stealth or invisibility.
Their fighters are also capable of ridiculous manoeuvres that make dogfighting perfectly viable
Dogfighting viability isnt a matter of maneuverability, its a matter of range. A missile launched from 100 miles away doesnt need to actually physically catch and make contact a fighter, they get within a set distance and then just need a fraction of a second to detonate their warhead and send a cloud of shrapnel at or in the path of the target like a giant shotgun. You can be as nimble as you want, if the missile can get close enough, it's over. It's also unlikely that we'd be talking about a single missile, trying to dodge and outrun one missile, ok, but four or five or a dozen? Then try dodging fire from a Phalanx system that can just fill the airspace your aircraft occupies with so much lead that there's nowhere to escape into.
and have superhuman pilots with interfacing methods that allow far easier and more responsive control of the plane. To give an example of one such advantage - our most modern planes can possibly reach double-digit g-forces if they're built for it. Eldar Nightwings have pulled off manoeuvres in their novel appearances that have been calculated at 11,000 g's.
I havent read that book, but that sounds like an instance of an author really not having any clue of what they are talking about (wouldnt be a first for 40k). That's about the acceleration of a artillery shell experiences for the briefest of times during firing. Even if the aircraft and pilots themselves were somehow magically capable of withstanding that, the air turbulence generated by such maneuvers would be toss the craft around like a paper plane in a hurricane. I haven't seen such a figure given in an IA book or Codex that I can recall.
I mean, I can buy them being faster and more maneuverable than modern aircraft, and able to take more G forces and dramatically outdogfight modern aircraft. Ok, I can buy all of that, but when we start talking about things like 11000 G maneuvers, the limits of physical matter, inverse square law, and thermodynamics start to kick back very hard even when talking about theoretical materials. Superhuman pilot or no, youd have to scrape them out of the cockpit with a paper towel and a pressure hose. Thats not just superhuman G force resistance, thats multiple orders of increasingly difficult to accept magnitude there.
It's like how the bug heavy scary Imperial tanks dont work either, Land Raiders having effectively no ground clearance and being stopped by a common speed bump or Leman Russ turrets having no room for crew and a gun breech that extends beyond the crew hatch making entry into the turret impossible even in GW cutaway drawings
Looking at things in a vacuum, sure, they do things that don't make sense to us with our understanding of science and military tactics. But they don't operate by the same rules we do, and a lot of unviable tactics or delivery methods suddenly become a lot less so when you aren't necessarily bound by the laws of physics as we understand them.
Which is why things fall apart because the 40k universe stuff basically relies on Handwavium and fundamental wrongness of proven scientific concepts. Im not even talking about just stuff we make but rather the fundamental constraints of reality.
the Space Marines can be equated with groups like ISIS, The Catholic Church during the crusades or the Spanish Inquisition you attribute too much mercy to very strict troops.
If you going to think Space Marine chapters are all alike in their personalities and disposition, I guess I really can't help you there.
Vaktathi wrote: Sure, but a lot of that is somewhat misleading. Lasguns dont offer any new tactical capability that a 70 year old Kalashnikov does not (and, more to the point, Lasgun functionality in 40k is portrayed nothing like how laser devices function in reality, but instead follow the Star Wars model of just replacing a lead bullet with a bright red light bolt and otherwise operating like a modern firearm ). Likewise, 40k starships operate in manners more akin to 18th century Age of Sail methods, both in ship functions and tactical operation, than modern day warships do. Indentured crew turn turrets and load shells by hand in chain gangs and the like, stuff that simply would not function on an actual starship. Even antigrav, as its used and described in 40k, at best just replicates Helicopter capabilities.
Even if it doesn't hit any harder, I'm sure you recognize the strategic and logistical benefits to a rifle that can be reloaded by putting the battery in a fire. It's at once both ridiculous and amazing (sorta sums up the whole thing, right?).
40K is tricky, because it's medium of choice (written story, tabletop or video game/cinematic) really just goes along with whatever narrative works best. Starships engaging targets hundreds of thousands of kilometers away in BFG, and also broadsiding each other. They can lance targets from orbit with fairly good precision, or just lay waste to continents.
Antigrav = Helicopters. It's true, they're not dissimilar. Falcons are capable of flying above the clouds, or hugging the earth. They are hermetically sealed and can operate in a vacuum. I think they can deploy from space. As for their weapons, to me at least, that remains hard to judge. Weapons are limited in range for tabletop purposes. In my mind a Bright Lance is intended to represent a highly capable AT weapon. Even if the range is short, in a Vs. battle with modern tanks, Falcons could just descend on them from above the elevation limit of the 120mm cannon and pick them apart, or (as per the rules) land in the midst of them and disgorge elite troopers with miniature fusion weapons. Holo-fields making the vehicles hard to target, etc.
In the end, 40K technology is both less and more.
Vaktathi wrote: Not really what I meant. Those things by definition operate beyond visual range.
I guess I don't know what you mean then. Aircraft using radar? That seems analogous to starships using sensors. I feel like I've read that 40K aircraft have similar capabilities in some books, but I honestly can't be specific. I think the game goes "hollywood", but the fiction varies between hollywood and more legit. All depending on plot, of course.
There are obviously rules for unit targeting for artillery and smart missiles though. Which is another type of engagement beyond LOS. I dunno, I'd be interested in what examples people can come up with in this area. I feel like this stuff is floating around, but it's not necessarily part of the tabletop game so we don't get much exposure to it.
I certainly have never seen any, its pretty much all WW2 style dogfighting with guns of various sorts, while missiles, when used, are used at close visual ranges, there's nothing like an AWACS coordinating fighter movements and tracking sensor contacts and feeding targeting data to fighters so they can engage targets 150 miles away.
You might be right there, in regards to the actual aircraft. I really don't know, honestly. It's been a while since I've read any BL stuff with actual areal battles. Planetary defenses obviously can track orbital and areal targets though. They can communicate to the fighters in flight. I know that doesn't help if the aircraft are sitting ducks for long range AA missiles, but it seems likely that they have at least some countermeasures. If ground defenses can fire at orbiting spaceships,(which does take missiles/lasers/whatever that track via instrumentation) then it seems likely that they could also fire at aircraft, right?
They probably have the speed, but nothing near the firepower and target engagement capabilities, at least not that I can find or recall any examples of.
I guess I mostly replied to this above. Really, I don't know. Someone who is more of an Eldar buff might have better information. I know they can pack D weapons though.
Vaktathi wrote: Something akin to a Tomahawk, something that can be fired from a large aircraft, a ship, a submarine, or a ground installation at a target a couple hundred miles away and intended to destroy a high value but immobile or relatively slow moving targets like warships or a slow convoy or airfield hangers or bridges.
Deathstrike really is more of an intermediate range ballistic missile that got hamfisted into a front line artillery role for...reasons. Manticore missiles might be the closest thing but arent really quite there, and are apparently extremely unreliable and tempermental weapons.
Hmm, what you're looking for sorta sounds like a Melta Torpedo or similar weapon. Or, why fire a missile when a lance strike will do? I feel like the strategic niche is covered.
Hrm, theyre not so much about reducing collateral damage as ensuring you actually hit what youre aiming at. WW1 and WW2 bombing raids would routinely devastate areas and simultaneously completely miss what they were actually trying to bomb, often by many miles. If you can send one plane with one bomb and have a 95% hit rate to do the job, thats a far more effective weapons system than sending a fleet of bombers with tens of thousands of bombs with a collective 30% hit rate combined. That collateral damage is reduced is a happy coincidence.
That's a good point, but if the Imperium isn't concerned about collateral damage, and is also unconcerned about time and cost (AKA, the IG), then why bother with smart munitions? Again, I feel like the strategic niche is covered. You can lance it from orbit, you can torpedo it, or you can bombard the area to rubble. Or you can land Space Marines on it, for that matter. The options of "destroy or capture" seem to be all there.
I guess it's unclear how accurate orbital bombardment is. The one in 40K (that a Chapter Master calls in) is small, but pretty accurate. The bombardment in Epic 40K was much bigger, but still fairly accurate on that scale. Drop Pods are obviously pretty damn accurate. It's a little difficult to say, since the accuracy moves around in service of the game or the plot. Can the Imperium put a missile through a window without an on-site spotter? Maybe not. Can it level a city block from orbit? That seems pretty clear.
The thing is, our missile tracking and beyond visual range engagement methods wouldn't work against Eldar fighters, because they all have Holo-Fields, which explicitly jam any kind of tracking devices, including ones that use a wider spectrum than our own, and make it effectively impossible to target the vehicle.
That doesn't seem to stop other munitions, both guided and unguided from successfully engaging the Eldar in the 40k universe, often many extremely primitive ones, it just means they miss more. Holofields are far from foolproof. They're not perfect stealth or invisibility.
Their fighters are also capable of ridiculous manoeuvres that make dogfighting perfectly viable
Dogfighting viability isnt a matter of maneuverability, its a matter of range. A missile launched from 100 miles away doesnt need to actually physically catch and make contact a fighter, they get within a set distance and then just need a fraction of a second to detonate their warhead and send a cloud of shrapnel at or in the path of the target like a giant shotgun. You can be as nimble as you want, if the missile can get close enough, it's over. It's also unlikely that we'd be talking about a single missile, trying to dodge and outrun one missile, ok, but four or five or a dozen? Then try dodging fire from a Phalanx system that can just fill the airspace your aircraft occupies with so much lead that there's nowhere to escape into.
and have superhuman pilots with interfacing methods that allow far easier and more responsive control of the plane. To give an example of one such advantage - our most modern planes can possibly reach double-digit g-forces if they're built for it. Eldar Nightwings have pulled off manoeuvres in their novel appearances that have been calculated at 11,000 g's.
I havent read that book, but that sounds like an instance of an author really not having any clue of what they are talking about (wouldnt be a first for 40k). That's about the acceleration of a artillery shell experiences for the briefest of times during firing. Even if the aircraft and pilots themselves were somehow magically capable of withstanding that, the air turbulence generated by such maneuvers would be toss the craft around like a paper plane in a hurricane. I haven't seen such a figure given in an IA book or Codex that I can recall.
I mean, I can buy them being faster and more maneuverable than modern aircraft, and able to take more G forces and dramatically outdogfight modern aircraft. Ok, I can buy all of that, but when we start talking about things like 11000 G maneuvers, the limits of physical matter, inverse square law, and thermodynamics start to kick back very hard even when talking about theoretical materials. Superhuman pilot or no, youd have to scrape them out of the cockpit with a paper towel and a pressure hose. Thats not just superhuman G force resistance, thats multiple orders of increasingly difficult to accept magnitude there.
It's like how the bug heavy scary Imperial tanks dont work either, Land Raiders having effectively no ground clearance and being stopped by a common speed bump or Leman Russ turrets having no room for crew and a gun breech that extends beyond the crew hatch making entry into the turret impossible even in GW cutaway drawings
Looking at things in a vacuum, sure, they do things that don't make sense to us with our understanding of science and military tactics. But they don't operate by the same rules we do, and a lot of unviable tactics or delivery methods suddenly become a lot less so when you aren't necessarily bound by the laws of physics as we understand them.
Which is why things fall apart because the 40k universe stuff basically relies on Handwavium and fundamental wrongness of proven scientific concepts. Im not even talking about just stuff we make but rather the fundamental constraints of reality.
For what it's worth, the reason they can pull it is due to insanely good inertial dampening and gravity manipulation. They can literally do a near-instant 180 degree turn while travelling at supersonic speeds - I'll also note that the quote in question never actually mentioned the exact amount of gee-forces involved, it only described the action itself, the gee-forces required to do it were then calculated by a fan over on the Spacebattles forum. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, though - when your understanding of science is so advanced that you can laugh at the laws of physics as we understand them, you can basically ignore most of the limitations that make us think 'that is a silly idea'. Granted, even then they still do ridiculous things like put people on Jetbikes and give them lances, but I suppose that's what you get when your universe runs on rule of cool.
With regards to the Holo-Fields, I'll also point out that Eldar atmospheric aircraft are basically unstoppable in-setting. Every time they deploy in the fluff they curb-stomp whatever they're up against - Imperial Navy estimates 75% casualties every time merely to operate in contested airspace with the Eldar. The fields are less effective on other craft, but on an interceptor they're pretty much game-breaking.
I suppose the point I'm trying to get at here is that even if they don't use it in the most efficient and effective way they could, the sheer difference in level of advancement between us and the likes of the Eldar means they're going to stomp us into the ground regardless.
Not going to argue with you about Imperial tank design, though, especially given that they're bound by a lot of the same rules we are. The Leman Russ is objectively awful as a tank.
Then the Tau Barricuda with its simple auto targeting software ignores all of that Eldar BS. Ah got to love computers and predictive targeting. If the Tau can develop auto targetting software that negates that we can do it too.
Our missiles will be problematic, but rapid fire kinetic and laser based weapons would bet he perfect counter to such high speed turns. Good thing Eldar fighters are the most frail around and will be swatted out of the sky.
If an Eldar jet turned 180 the light emitting from a laser is still faster and still going to mess it up.
Basically it doesn't matter how agile you are when the guns work like this. Then add in actual lasers the fastest thing in the universe. Our Drone fighters or fighters being flown by people on the ground will be able to make turns that will close the agility gap on Eldar fighters since there won't be any limits on agility from the pilot anymore just what the craft itself can do.
Gamgee wrote: Then the Tau Barricuda with its simple auto targeting software ignores all of that Eldar BS. Ah got to love computers and predictive targeting. If the Tau can develop auto targetting software that negates that we can do it too.
Our missiles will be problematic, but rapid fire kinetic and laser based weapons would bet he perfect counter to such high speed turns. Good thing Eldar fighters are the most frail around and will be swatted out of the sky.
If an Eldar jet turned 180 the light emitting from a laser is still faster and still going to mess it up.
Basically it doesn't matter how agile you are when the guns work like this. Then add in actual lasers the fastest thing in the universe. Our Drone fighters or fighters being flown by people on the ground will be able to make turns that will close the agility gap on Eldar fighters since there won't be any limits on agility from the pilot anymore just what the craft itself can do.
That's game mechanics, though. In the fluff, no targeting measures work properly against holo-fields. You basically can either use really wide area-of-effect weaponry or you hit and hope if you want to hit a Nightwing.
On top of that, they're actually really durable by our standards. The wraithbone they're made of is a hundred times stronger than steel.
The Dark Eldar totally got this. They can use Webway Portals and appear in every major city, military base, or other locations deemed necessary for takeover.
Or, Vect could just steal the entire planet and portal it into Commoragh and saying that we now belong to him.
There are more than enough Dark Eldar to raid from anywhere using portals, pouring in and wiping people out. As for me, send me to die by Lelith in the arena. Closest thing to death by snoo-snoo in my opinion.
I am kinda baffled how some of you Americans completely underestimate the effect of orbital bombardment. What do they teach you at school about the bombing of Rotterdam and Hiroshima.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Any void capable warship with ways to communicate with modern day humans will conquer earth in a few days to weeks.
Robin5t wrote: That's game mechanics, though. In the fluff, no targeting measures work properly against holo-fields. You basically can either use really wide area-of-effect weaponry or you hit and hope if you want to hit a Nightwing.
Except weapons can and do hit Nightwings. And Imperial fighters, with all their flaws and primitive technology, manage to fight at some level of parity with them. Sure, they take losses and only win by sheer numbers, but they can fight. It isn't like a Culture fighter (should they decide to build one out of sheer boredom with winning the usual way) against 40k, so the obvious conclusion is that the Eldar are massively over-hyped and their real performance is much lower.
As I said control the gravity well, control the planet. Even a simple merchant ship could do it. You want to wipe out population but save the infrastructure, drop a virus. Want to reduce the populations of the planet down to 25% or less of its current size, without bombarding the whole planet? EMP will do the trick and wait a couple months. Then show up and supply food and suddenly you are in charge. Aside from the food runs, they never really ever need to step foot on the planet.
Davor wrote: Well seeing how Russia and USA and coalition couldn't take Afghanistan I would think it would take a lot to take over a planet let alone a country.
Russia and the US had to fight by the laws of war and couldn't use "exterminate the entire population and bring in our own settlers" as a strategy. The Imperium would do this as a default policy.
carldooley wrote: One ship from any of the fleets could do it. "He who holds the high ground wins."
This. Regardless of what GW authors have feed us in the fiction, reality tells us a single warship in orbit can bring a world to its knees. Doesn't even have to expend munitions, just needs to push the occasional steal I-beam out an airlock to leave behind a 35-megaton kinetic calling card that says "I win, your economy is now mine". Don't even need troops, just drop an I-beam each time there is any form of resistance.
Vaktathi wrote: The real world also has technology that would put the Eldar and Tau to shame.
The opposite is also true. . . starships, antigrav. Even just Lasguns.
Lasguns, despite on a tech level being more advanced, are used purely due to helping relieve ammunition supply issues and producing a weapon with a universal ammunition. Autoguns, at least in the older fluff used to be extremely common, if not the main weapon used in the early years of humanity. Autoguns themselves being slightly more powerful and accurate than Lasguns, but not by an extremely noticeable amount and definitely not enough to be superior on the tabletop. Even then Autoguns are most definitely inferior to modern firearms seeing they only fire solid slugs and by comparison are incredibly crude.
So basically ignoring the technical tech level it would be Lasguns<Autoguns><Modern Firearms. You then have the issue that in the 40k universe (not so much the 30k era) many of the most popular remaining combat vehicles were never designed to be combat vehicles, the Rhino and Leman Russ are prime examples!
In all honesty the whole comparison is pointless anyway seeing 40K is a Space Fantasy, it's not even Sci-Fi. If you paid attention to 40k fluff, if we didn't use nukes a lone marine would most likely be enough to cripple our defenses. Maybe 10-50 would be enough to defeat our planets armies. That being said I reckon even the Guard, despite the fluff describe them now as being the main conquering force of the Imperium by the 41st century, wouldn't have a particularly easy time but would be able too eventually using their superior numbers and willingness to fight. Too much of their equipment relies on direct fire, although it would be interesting to see how their thunderbolts etc would fare. Also the Guard and Navy still poses many long ranged guided missiles akin to what we have now, albeit their ballistic weapons seem to be lacking. I get the impression that the Lascannon may struggle against modern tanks, albeit provide composite armour pointless. >
Several warships with 100 marines would crush the earth in a month. The ships would destroy all nuclear weapons from space. The fallout would kill many earthlings. Marines would then drop into the major cities to crush the world leaders.
Normal human with autoguns vs giant hulk with depleted uranium bolter rounds and power armor? Humans with weaknesses vs marines who don't need to sleep in war? It would be over quick. Theit only issue would be logistics, but in rality they could win by taking out governments and military powers.
I think the world would submit to them quickly after we lost all our super weapons, military leaders, etc.
455_PWR wrote: Several warships with 100 marines would crush the earth in a month. The ships would destroy all nuclear weapons from space. The fallout would kill many earthlings. Marines would then drop into the major cities to crush the world leaders.
Normal human with autoguns vs giant hulk with depleted uranium bolter rounds and power armor? Humans with weaknesses vs marines who don't need to sleep in war? It would be over quick. Theit only issue would be logistics, but in rality they could win by taking out governments and military powers.
I think the world would submit to them quickly after we lost all our super weapons, military leaders, etc.
so let me get this right a giant hulk with a Depleted Uranium Bolter round which kills one person, is better then the human with a gun and a bullet that kills one person, it doesn't matter how powerful the bullet is, dead is dead, there are no bonus death points involved by overkilling.
Davor wrote: Well seeing how Russia and USA and coalition couldn't take Afghanistan I would think it would take a lot to take over a planet let alone a country.
Russia and the US had to fight by the laws of war and couldn't use "exterminate the entire population and bring in our own settlers" as a strategy. The Imperium would do this as a default policy.
What is the title of the thread? CONQUER not who would win a battle. Russia and USA could have used Nukes, that doesn't mean they would have conquered. How do you conquer someone when everyone is dead or there is nothing left to conquer? USA did use Nukes in a war. What if the country didn't capitulate to the demands of the USA and allies how would the USA and allies conquer the country? It's not so easy at all.
To conquer you need to defeat the army first. Then you need to defeat the resistance. Then you need to keep all the people of the country or in this case the entire world 7 Billion people to do your tidings. That is not an easy thing to do.
Also a few ships coming in from the "warp" is not enough to do this.
Davor wrote: Well seeing how Russia and USA and coalition couldn't take Afghanistan I would think it would take a lot to take over a planet let alone a country.
Modern western civilizations vs an orbital warship would be noting like Taliban vs the US. It is going to be like the Dutch vs the Nazi's. If you are lacking the imagination imagine the following while you are one of the leaders of Canada.
Hour 0: Nasa and the other space agencies notice some strange abnormally. Hour 3: It appears to be an alien space ship, and they demand our surrender. Hour 5: Long ranged missiles are fired, but they appear to be totally ineffective. Hour 6:They lance Montreal from orbit, the city is completely leveled. The first reports estimate a death total of at least 1500k and you will get the following message: We will lance Vancouver,in the next hour and continue lancing cities until you offer your unconditional surrender and order all your forces to stand down.
How many cities would you surrender knowing that your army doesn't have a clue how to strike back?
Davor wrote: To conquer you need to defeat the army first. Then you need to defeat the resistance. Then you need to keep all the people of the country or in this case the entire world 7 Billion people to do your tidings. That is not an easy thing to do.
That's not how it works in 40k. The Imperium does not conquer populations, it conquers territory. Whatever is living there already is exterminated to make room for loyal citizens.
Davor wrote: Well seeing how Russia and USA and coalition couldn't take Afghanistan I would think it would take a lot to take over a planet let alone a country.
Modern western civilizations vs an orbital warship would be noting like Taliban vs the US. It is going to be like the Dutch vs the Nazi's. If you are lacking the imagination imagine the following while you are one of the leaders of Canada.
Hour 0: Nasa and the other space agencies notice some strange abnormally.
Hour 3: It appears to be an alien space ship, and they demand our surrender.
Hour 5: Long ranged missiles are fired, but they appear to be totally ineffective.
Hour 6:They lance Montreal from orbit, the city is completely leveled. The first reports estimate a death total of at least 1500k and you will get the following message: We will lance Vancouver,in the next hour and continue lancing cities until you offer your unconditional surrender and order all your forces to stand down.
How many cities would you surrender knowing that your army doesn't have a clue how to strike back?
You are talking over 200 countries in the world not just one or one city. The US or Russia or China can't speak for the world. Hell I don't think any of those countries could speak on the behalf of North Korea. There is no way all 200+ countries would agree. There would also be resistance forces. Again this is about CONQUORING and what it would require a total conquer of the earth. A few ships in space will not conquer the Earth. Again, yes they can obliterate all the cities, but once you need "boots on the ground" to take over, it will not be done with the men on the ship. You will need Troops on the ground to control the local populations and dissidents.
Just look at the mid east. Nobody can control what is going on there right now even with all the Nukes and state of the art armies and what not. Why? Because you still need to control the population as well. It's not just taking over the government, but the population as well.
Great article link you provided. Learned more history today.
455_PWR wrote: Several warships with 100 marines would crush the earth in a month. The ships would destroy all nuclear weapons from space
And they would magically know where they all are how?
These are issues that are never really addressed.
The fallout would kill many earthlings. Marines would then drop into the major cities to crush the world leaders.
And they know which cities are the capitals of which nations and they know who the leaders are and they know where these leaders are...how?
More to the point, with so few of them, how they can be almost nowhere, the Earth forces essentially have complete freedom of movement while the marines are essentially instantly encircled and concentrated upon.
Normal human with autoguns vs giant hulk with depleted uranium bolter rounds and power armor?
Autoguns and similar weapons like Lasguns have killed marines before in the fluff, and for modern armies these are the absolute most pitiful of weapons that do almost none of the actually killing in a modern conventional war.
Humans with weaknesses vs marines who don't need to sleep in war?
Of whom there would be so few they could essentially be ignored as they'd be easily moved around, encircled, and destroyed in detail.
oldzoggy wrote: I am kinda baffled how some of you Americans completely underestimate the effect of orbital bombardment. What do they teach you at school about the bombing of Rotterdam and Hiroshima.
Bombing of major cities has done nothing in most instances except kill and piss off the civilians and cause temporary disruption. German war material production in WW2 peaked near the height of Allied aerial bombardment. Tokyo suffered more dead in a single night from conventional firebombing than in any of the Atomic bomb blasts and kept going. Bombardment is a powerful destructive tool but it has never won a war on its own.
The A-Bombs came when Japan already was trying to look for an out and to get the Soviets to act as intermediaries for peace talks, and had no fuel left to put ships out to sea or aircraft in the air, almost no ships left to even send on suicide runs, was out of material to produce arms and her industry in ruins, almost no tanks to speak of (and basically nothing that could compete with even a Sherman anyway), no air force left, Japan had been completely cut off from her overseas armies, was almost completely out of trained military personnel in the home islands, and was essentially prostrate, helpless, and starving, and with a Soviet invasion in between the two bombs that obliterated the best remaining overseas troops they had and seized their most important colonial possessions in all of two weeks and cut off Japan's last hope of a negotiated peace through an intermediary.
Even if it doesn't hit any harder, I'm sure you recognize the strategic and logistical benefits to a rifle that can be reloaded by putting the battery in a fire. It's at once both ridiculous and amazing (sorta sums up the whole thing, right?).
Right, but fundamentally a Lasgun isn't doing anything an Autogun can't in terms of executing its role.
40K is tricky, because it's medium of choice (written story, tabletop or video game/cinematic) really just goes along with whatever narrative works best. Starships engaging targets hundreds of thousands of kilometers away in BFG, and also broadsiding each other. They can lance targets from orbit with fairly good precision, or just lay waste to continents.
Right, and that's really the issue. 40k isn't consistent even with itself, much less reality, and direct comparisons break down quickly.
Antigrav = Helicopters. It's true, they're not dissimilar. Falcons are capable of flying above the clouds, or hugging the earth. They are hermetically sealed and can operate in a vacuum. I think they can deploy from space. As for their weapons, to me at least, that remains hard to judge. Weapons are limited in range for tabletop purposes. In my mind a Bright Lance is intended to represent a highly capable AT weapon. Even if the range is short, in a Vs. battle with modern tanks, Falcons could just descend on them from above the elevation limit of the 120mm cannon and pick them apart, or (as per the rules) land in the midst of them and disgorge elite troopers with miniature fusion weapons. Holo-fields making the vehicles hard to target, etc.
Sure, and some of that I'd buy, though they've shown they're also perfectly vulnerable to weapons which have been available to the real world for decades if not over a century (such as autocannons), and wouldn't be inordinately difficult targets to destroy. Even the tactic you describe would be outrageously difficult to pull off (evade AA systems until you get close enough to essentially dive bomb without allowing a ground based target enough elevation to engage you) and there's a reason stuff like dive bombers that operated that way no longer exist and why helicopters like an Apache don't engage from close and high above but from very far away, often from behind hills or mountains if they can.
I guess I don't know what you mean then. Aircraft using radar? That seems analogous to starships using sensors. I feel like I've read that 40K aircraft have similar capabilities in some books, but I honestly can't be specific. I think the game goes "hollywood", but the fiction varies between hollywood and more legit. All depending on plot, of course.
In this sense, with "beyond visual range", I mean stuff like aircraft engaging each other by radar reading from beyond the horizon or radar guided artillery delivering GPS guided munitions to moving targets a dozen miles away or cruise missiles being fired from submarines at ground targets from under the water. Stuff like that. Spaceships pretty much by definition have to operate beyond such ranges due to the scales involved, but terrestrially we see very little of this sort of thing beyond a very limited handful of items. AA weapons tend to be direct fire guns or limited range missiles largely replicating WW2 and Korean War aerial combat, artillery tends to be either relatively short ranged or dumb-fire artillery not much different from that in WW1, guided missiles tend to be extremely rare and usually limited to something akin to an Apache launched Hellfire like a Tau seeker missile.
You might be right there, in regards to the actual aircraft. I really don't know, honestly. It's been a while since I've read any BL stuff with actual areal battles. Planetary defenses obviously can track orbital and areal targets though. They can communicate to the fighters in flight. I know that doesn't help if the aircraft are sitting ducks for long range AA missiles, but it seems likely that they have at least some countermeasures. If ground defenses can fire at orbiting spaceships,(which does take missiles/lasers/whatever that track via instrumentation) then it seems likely that they could also fire at aircraft, right?
One might think, but pretty much the only representations of AA weapons and the like are guns with missiles being relatively rare. This is also the same universe that has nukes but almost never uses them unless they're obliterating an entire planet.
Hmm, what you're looking for sorta sounds like a Melta Torpedo or similar weapon. Or, why fire a missile when a lance strike will do? I feel like the strategic niche is covered.
Maybe? Depictions of these vary extremely wildly, but ultimately most 40k battles seem to be fought without fire support from orbital vessels. Naval support for IG seems exceptionally rare while even for Space Marines its portrayal in fluff is more of an exception rather than the rule. And without said naval support no even remotely similar capabilities seem to exist.
That's a good point, but if the Imperium isn't concerned about collateral damage, and is also unconcerned about time and cost (AKA, the IG), then why bother with smart munitions?
Because while the Imperium isn't against spending lives, it doesn't look to actively expend more than it needs to, it just kinda does out of incompetence, but on the attritional and strategic levels the Imperium generally wins its wars on (as opposed to the operational or tactical level where they get butchered all the time), such things would matter a great deal.
I guess it's unclear how accurate orbital bombardment is. The one in 40K (that a Chapter Master calls in) is small, but pretty accurate. The bombardment in Epic 40K was much bigger, but still fairly accurate on that scale.
yeah, Lance strikes alternatively are city killers nuke level weapons or are merely as powerful as an IG Medusa's gun depending on the portrayal. Ostensibly Lances also are something SM's aren't supposed to have lots of either according to the Imperial Navy and Codex Astartes and BFG ships portrayals, but they seem to have Lances sprouting from everyone in most fluff depictions
Drop Pods are obviously pretty damn accurate. It's a little difficult to say, since the accuracy moves around in service of the game or the plot. Can the Imperium put a missile through a window without an on-site spotter? Maybe not. Can it level a city block from orbit? That seems pretty clear.
Sure, but such capabilities are so rarely utilized in a such a manner as to be effectively nonexistent.
If The fleet tried to do ariel bombardment to take out say the US capitol they would end up bombing cities like New York and LA avoiding Washington DC all together since it looks nothing like what the Space Marines would term a Capitol city. its small low level and flat, they think in terms of high rises and such as being major capitol centers.
then if you got boots on the ground even if they sent in 1K marines in say a city like My town of Stockton, they would be out gunned and out numbered, and if it was a City like LA in say the Hood, they would be lucky if they could get off of one block let alone the city.
Davor wrote: Just look at the mid east. Nobody can control what is going on there right now even with all the Nukes and state of the art armies and what not. Why? Because you still need to control the population as well. It's not just taking over the government, but the population as well.
Again, because in the real world we can't massacre civilians to accomplish the goal of "peace". We have nukes, but we can't use nukes. The Imperium has no such moral conflicts. Killing civilians as collateral damage in an attack on a military target is a good thing, because it means fewer civilians for the extermination force to kill once the military is destroyed.
Well, we *could* use Nukes. We *choose* not to because we are not comfortable with the level of destruction that entails relative to the threat posed to our civil societies. Sufficiently threatened we certainly would. I imagine the Assyrians that used to dominate the middle east, were they still a power today, would have simply levelled every city that was a problem and extirpated their populations
Asterios wrote: If The fleet tried to do ariel bombardment to take out say the US capitol they would end up bombing cities like New York and LA avoiding Washington DC all together since it looks nothing like what the Space Marines would term a Capitol city. its small low level and flat, they think in terms of high rises and such as being major capitol centers.
Why would they avoid DC? Lance strikes from orbit are free. LA and NYC would be destroyed, DC would be destroyed, as would every other significant population center. Our valuable resources (mines, farmland, etc) are mostly located outside of cities, so there's no reason to bother capturing cities intact. Reduce them to radioactive glass, and only land troops to secure useful resources against the terrified and confused residents of the 500-person farming town nearby.
then if you got boots on the ground even if they sent in 1K marines in say a city like My town of Stockton, they would be out gunned and out numbered, and if it was a City like LA in say the Hood, they would be lucky if they could get off of one block let alone the city.
Lol no. Random criminals with guns are no threat to marines. They don't have heavy weapons capable of defeating power armor with anything but an incredibly lucky shot, and I doubt they have the morale to willingly die by the thousands in human wave attacks for the small chance of killing a single marine. Resistance would be over within a few minutes of the first exchange of fire as the defenders see their weapons doing nothing and their comrades exploding in a rain of gore from bolter rounds or being cut in half by chainsaw swords. Not that running would save them for long, of course, but perhaps an orderly execution in the death camps would be preferable to dying in battle.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaktathi wrote: Well, we *could* use Nukes. We *choose* not to because we are not comfortable with the level of destruction that entails relative to the threat posed to our civil societies. Sufficiently threatened we certainly would. I imagine the Assyrians that used to dominate the middle east, were they still a power today, would have simply levelled every city that was a problem and extirpated their populations
Yes, that's what I mean. We have the capability of using nukes, but moral and political reasons that prevent their use in the middle east. The Imperium, on the other hand, would not hesitate at all to use WMDs on civilian targets.
Asterios wrote: then if you got boots on the ground even if they sent in 1K marines in say a city like My town of Stockton, they would be out gunned and out numbered, and if it was a City like LA in say the Hood, they would be lucky if they could get off of one block let alone the city.
Lol no. Random criminals with guns are no threat to marines. They don't have heavy weapons capable of defeating power armor with anything but an incredibly lucky shot, and I doubt they have the morale to willingly die by the thousands in human wave attacks for the small chance of killing a single marine. Resistance would be over within a few minutes of the first exchange of fire as the defenders see their weapons doing nothing and their comrades exploding in a rain of gore from bolter rounds or being cut in half by chainsaw swords. Not that running would save them for long, of course, but perhaps an orderly execution in the death camps would be preferable to dying in battle.
have you not been watching the news? seriously thinking gangs don't have heavy weapons and such? I remember watching one of the gun turn ins they had in Oakland, one of the things turned in was a LAW rocket, yes gangs have the drive to protect their territories and the weapons to do it with. and some well placed bombs could take out marines very easily, it doesn't take much to make a IED to fight the marines.
you seriously underestimate human kind and overestimate the Space Marines.
Asterios wrote: have you not been watching the news? seriously thinking gangs don't have heavy weapons and such? I remember watching one of the gun turn ins they had in Oakland, one of the things turned in was a LAW rocket, yes gangs have the drive to protect their territories and the weapons to do it with. and some well placed bombs could take out marines very easily, it doesn't take much to make a IED to fight the marines.
Ok, one LAW rocket. No tanks, no nuclear weapons, no AA missiles, etc. And none of these things are likely to be immediately available when a drop pod smashes down onto someone's house and marines start slaughtering everything in sight. Nobody is going to be making IEDs because the "war" is going to be over in minutes.
Also, gangs have a drive to protect their territories against other gangs. Not against massive super-human soldiers wearing tank armor and carrying rapid-fire grenade launchers. There's a huge difference between doing a drive-by on a guy who is selling drugs in "your" territory and making a suicide attack alongside thousands of fellow casualties in the desperate hope that you might kill something before dying. Or even so that your death might be enough of a distraction for the guy with the LAW to take a shot before also being blown apart by a bolter round.
Asterios wrote: have you not been watching the news? seriously thinking gangs don't have heavy weapons and such? I remember watching one of the gun turn ins they had in Oakland, one of the things turned in was a LAW rocket, yes gangs have the drive to protect their territories and the weapons to do it with. and some well placed bombs could take out marines very easily, it doesn't take much to make a IED to fight the marines.
Ok, one LAW rocket. No tanks, no nuclear weapons, no AA missiles, etc. And none of these things are likely to be immediately available when a drop pod smashes down onto someone's house and marines start slaughtering everything in sight. Nobody is going to be making IEDs because the "war" is going to be over in minutes.
Also, gangs have a drive to protect their territories against other gangs. Not against massive super-human soldiers wearing tank armor and carrying rapid-fire grenade launchers. There's a huge difference between doing a drive-by on a guy who is selling drugs in "your" territory and making a suicide attack alongside thousands of fellow casualties in the desperate hope that you might kill something before dying. Or even so that your death might be enough of a distraction for the guy with the LAW to take a shot before also being blown apart by a bolter round.
you must live in a nice town, i've seen the seedy side of cities, when cops don't even go into certain neighborhoods(or drive thru very fast) for fear of being shot at and where military vehicles are very available yeah the marines will do a lot of killing but when their ammo runs dry, they will be dying. if not sooner.
Asterios wrote: you must live in a nice town, i've seen the seedy side of cities, when cops don't even go into certain neighborhoods(or drive thru very fast) for fear of being shot at and where military vehicles are very available yeah the marines will do a lot of killing but when their ammo runs dry, they will be dying. if not sooner.
Again, cops don't go there. Cops are normal humans. Space marines are god-like killing machines, even once they run out of bolter rounds and have to use their chainsaw swords. Taking shots at the cops driving by is not at all the same thing as voluntarily making a suicidal human wave attack in the desperate hope to maybe, if you get very lucky, do a little damage. Professional soldiers with tanks/heavy weapons/etc would be tested by the horrors of fighting against space marines, a bunch of thugs with their personal guns are going to break and run as soon as the suicidal nature of the fight becomes obvious.
Asterios wrote: you must live in a nice town, i've seen the seedy side of cities, when cops don't even go into certain neighborhoods(or drive thru very fast) for fear of being shot at and where military vehicles are very available yeah the marines will do a lot of killing but when their ammo runs dry, they will be dying. if not sooner.
Again, cops don't go there. Cops are normal humans. Space marines are god-like killing machines, even once they run out of bolter rounds and have to use their chainsaw swords. Taking shots at the cops driving by is not at all the same thing as voluntarily making a suicidal human wave attack in the desperate hope to maybe, if you get very lucky, do a little damage. Professional soldiers with tanks/heavy weapons/etc would be tested by the horrors of fighting against space marines, a bunch of thugs with their personal guns are going to break and run as soon as the suicidal nature of the fight becomes obvious.
and I repeat you drastically underestimate humans. you would be surprised how many drive-bys would be going on and such. California has some serious gangbangers who are well armed. not too mention the military trained gang members which even the FBI is worried over.
Asterios wrote: and I repeat you drastically underestimate humans.
And you don't seem to understand how humans react to hopeless situations. You're expecting random thugs with handguns to stand their ground and fight as they're blown apart by the hundreds and their weapons barely scratch the paint on their killers. A gang member might be willing to do a drive-by on a rival dealer, but that's not at all the same as facing certain death to fire one last shot as their best friend is torn in half by a chainsword. Morale would be a serious issue for professional soldiers, gangs are going to break and run when exposed to that horror.
you would be surprised how many drive-bys would be going on and such.
Very few, because a drive-by would be committing suicide for the sake of forcing the marines to spend some bolter rounds. Shooting from a moving car means not being able to concentrate fire and have any hope of penetrating power armor, and return fire from the marines is going to turn the car (and everyone inside) into a ball of blood-splattered wreckage. If you have a car in the horrifying slaughter of a space marine attack you're going to use it to get as far away as possible.
not too mention the military trained gang members which even the FBI is worried over.
And, again, the FBI is not the space marines. The FBI has normal humans that can be killed just like any other humans. Space marines have 10' tall walking tanks that are virtually immune to anything short of anti-tank weapons. An ambush that would kill a whole group of FBI agents probably wouldn't even scratch the paint on a squad of marines. And, unlike the FBI, the marines are free to call in an artillery strike in retaliation and level a whole city block before continuing on.
Asterios wrote: and I repeat you drastically underestimate humans.
And you don't seem to understand how humans react to hopeless situations. You're expecting random thugs with handguns to stand their ground and fight as they're blown apart by the hundreds and their weapons barely scratch the paint on their killers. A gang member might be willing to do a drive-by on a rival dealer, but that's not at all the same as facing certain death to fire one last shot as their best friend is torn in half by a chainsword. Morale would be a serious issue for professional soldiers, gangs are going to break and run when exposed to that horror.
you would be surprised how many drive-bys would be going on and such.
Very few, because a drive-by would be committing suicide for the sake of forcing the marines to spend some bolter rounds. Shooting from a moving car means not being able to concentrate fire and have any hope of penetrating power armor, and return fire from the marines is going to turn the car (and everyone inside) into a ball of blood-splattered wreckage. If you have a car in the horrifying slaughter of a space marine attack you're going to use it to get as far away as possible.
not too mention the military trained gang members which even the FBI is worried over.
And, again, the FBI is not the space marines. The FBI has normal humans that can be killed just like any other humans. Space marines have 10' tall walking tanks that are virtually immune to anything short of anti-tank weapons. An ambush that would kill a whole group of FBI agents probably wouldn't even scratch the paint on a squad of marines. And, unlike the FBI, the marines are free to call in an artillery strike in retaliation and level a whole city block before continuing on.
Well to be fair a marine only has a 1000 or so bolter rounds before they need to use a normal gun and trust in there 100+ years of experience and godly armor.
Not every marine is some sort of megaveteran of many decades, most probably aren't, and their army can be defeated by modern day equivalent weapons, just not easily.
More to the point...how many spare mags do you see Space Marines carry? Usually none, sometimes one or two.
But really, the issues with things like gangs or other sorts of civil insurrection wouldn't really be inflicting of casualties on Space Marines, but rather in sabotage and distraction. Cave in the freeway tunnel the SM's are using and you've made one hell of a headache for them. Randomly snipe at them to force them to halt and react momentarily. Standard guerilla tactics where the guerillas lose any sort of straight up fight but still cause major issues for the stronger force.
Vaktathi wrote: Not every marine is some sort of megaveteran of many decades, most probably aren't, and their army can be defeated by modern day equivalent weapons, just not easily.
Sure, but random gang members aren't going to be calling in a B-52 strike to wipe out a squad of marines. Modern Earth would need high-end military stuff to have a chance, so if the marines sit in orbit and nuke the military until the only resistance is civilians with their personal weapons it's going to be a one-sided slaughter.
But really, the issues with things like gangs or other sorts of civil insurrection wouldn't really be inflicting of casualties on Space Marines, but rather in sabotage and distraction. Cave in the freeway tunnel the SM's are using and you've made one hell of a headache for them. Randomly snipe at them to force them to halt and react momentarily. Standard guerilla tactics where the guerillas lose any sort of straight up fight but still cause major issues for the stronger force.
An attack by marines isn't going to last long enough for this kind of thing to happen. How do you cave in a freeway tunnel when you don't have anywhere near enough time to set up an explosives lab and build the required IEDs? And suicide sniping to momentarily delay a squad of marines is going to be rather difficult to get recruits for. "Die to delay the enemy for a few seconds" is a difficult sales pitch even for professional soldiers with a realistic hope of winning. A drug dealer with an AR15 is going to run as fast as possible in the other direction.
Vaktathi wrote: Not every marine is some sort of megaveteran of many decades, most probably aren't, and their army can be defeated by modern day equivalent weapons, just not easily.
Sure, but random gang members aren't going to be calling in a B-52 strike to wipe out a squad of marines.
Right, sure, I just wanted to better reflect the reality of a typical space marine.
An attack by marines isn't going to last long enough for this kind of thing to happen. How do you cave in a freeway tunnel when you don't have anywhere near enough time to set up an explosives lab and build the required IEDs?
Marines don't always just drop pod down and thunderhawk immediately back up, there's gobs of fluff of them moving about cities and being engaged in constant combat for days, as well as even mundane stuff like occupation duties.
And suicide sniping to momentarily delay a squad of marines is going to be rather difficult to get recruits for. "Die to delay the enemy for a few seconds" is a difficult sales pitch even for professional soldiers with a realistic hope of winning. A drug dealer with an AR15 is going to run as fast as possible in the other direction.
Two things. First, you underestimate human stupidity. Just look at US combat in Somalia, Iraq, and Afghanistan and you'll see huge numbers of instances where people do insanely stupid and obviously suicidal things like running into open streets in front of tanks and shooting with AK's that obviously can't hurt the tanks and then the predictable happens. I watched some Syrian civil war footage where bullets were landing around some fighters while they stood there in the open randomly shooting and continued to stand there with bullets literally snapping into the ground around their feet for like fifteen full seconds or so until some finally made contact.
Second, a lot of this also wouldn't necessarily be suicidal. Pop off a couple rounds from behind a wall a couple hundred meters away just to land a couple shots near the SM's and then skate away, and you're probably not instantly dead by any means. That sort of thing happens all the time in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. And while it may not delay troops for many hours, it may (or may not) delay them critically for a few minutes while they ascertain what they're being engaged by so they know they're not walking into a bigger ambush or something, which can mean the difference between the SM's accomplishing their mission in time or not.
I'm not saying it *would* necessarily actually be much of a grave threat to the Space Marines, just that it *could* be, it'd likely be an outlying marginal factor in the greater strategic sense, but there's damage to be done by outmatched urban insurgents as we've seen in the middle east.
Asterios wrote: you must live in a nice town, i've seen the seedy side of cities, when cops don't even go into certain neighborhoods(or drive thru very fast) for fear of being shot at and where military vehicles are very available yeah the marines will do a lot of killing but when their ammo runs dry, they will be dying. if not sooner.
Again, cops don't go there. Cops are normal humans. Space marines are god-like killing machines, even once they run out of bolter rounds and have to use their chainsaw swords. Taking shots at the cops driving by is not at all the same thing as voluntarily making a suicidal human wave attack in the desperate hope to maybe, if you get very lucky, do a little damage. Professional soldiers with tanks/heavy weapons/etc would be tested by the horrors of fighting against space marines, a bunch of thugs with their personal guns are going to break and run as soon as the suicidal nature of the fight becomes obvious.
and I repeat you drastically underestimate humans. you would be surprised how many drive-bys would be going on and such. California has some serious gangbangers who are well armed. not too mention the military trained gang members which even the FBI is worried over.
As someone who lives in Los Angeles I could tell you that it's highly unlikely a bunch of poor 17 year old kids armed with 9mm handguns and maybe a second hand SMG driving a clapped out '97 Honda civic could do much damage against a bunch of post human super soldiers in advanced full armor. Military trained or not.
It amuses me to see Peregrine defend Space Marines, but then, I suppose 'desire to be right' (which he, as usual, is!) overrides 'hatred for Space Marines'.
But yeah, those thinking gangs are going to organise a guerrilla counterattack after seeing Marines butcher everything in their path are waayyyyyy overestimating the gangs. They are crackheads, not samurai.
Or maybe the "hatred of space marines" doesn't actually exist to the extent you want to believe it does, and you shouldn't be such an irrational fanboy. There's perfectly good reasons to believe that less than a dozen space marines could not conquer Earth, and not really very many reasons to believe they could.
I don't really care for this particular line of reasoning. It's obnoxious and irritating to think that people honestly believe that gangbangers matter in a situation like a planetary invasion. They really don't, except insofar as they damage or help the infrastructure of the invaded nation, or join up with an actual military force to help defend the nation.
Rather, IMO it's quite clearly been established what kind of force people who disagree with this "ten space marines" crap would expect could actually conquer the Earth. A standard Imperial invasion force, and Ork WAAAGH!, a Tyranid splinter fleet-- things of that size and quality would be required. Most standard Imperial invasion forces would include some Space Marines, but they would not actually be MERELY Space Marines.
Which is not to say Earth is particularly well defended. None of these things are a particularly large force for any of the factions involved (except maybe for Tau and Eldar, but even to them it's not insurmountable, and honestly they probably wouldn't bother), it's just that, like I keep saying, we're talking about an invasion of Earth, not an invasion of a generic Earth-like world.
And the biggest difference between the two, assuming physics is similar enough for this to happen in the first place, is that the history of 40k follows a narrative structure... and Earth does not. Simply put, in 40k, many times, armies in 40k win because they're required to win by the author. There is no author enforcing such wins if they actually invaded Earth. I know I'm making a big deal about it, but this, to me, makes a massive difference, and thus we need to be more realistic about this than we would about a traditional 40k discussion.
Conquering Earth would still be trivial for a major 40k faction. Chaos, the Imperium, Orks, Tyranids, and so on all have massive amounts of forces, billions upon billions, that they can use to invade. It wouldn't take but a fraction of a percent of their power to invade Earth. It's just that fraction of a percent cannot merely be "a dozen astartes".
Why would Earth attempt to fight off Imperial conquest at all?
Keep in mind we have no real access to the 'truth' about the galaxy at large (unending war, soulless bureaucracy). Even if we did, joining the Imperium is basically our only defense against the dangers out there. We can't even defend our orbital space, so there's on way we could fight off any invasion.
The Imperium is made of millions of worlds of humans, and espouses the manifest destiny of humanity. They have a superior grasp of the nature of reality (nature of souls, existence of VERY malevolent gods we need protection from). They follow a very Roman style of governorship (run your own show, just pay your taxes), which the wealthy/powerful of Earth would not likely oppose. Their religion is highly adept at playing the LONG game to convert local religions over - much like the Catholic Church did to many faiths by absorbing local divinities a saints. Once the majority of the planet has joined the Imperial Faith they can go about the business of eliminating the 'heretical' hold-outs themselves.
In brief, the Imperium is superior to Earth in basically every way, even if they are very backwards from what they were 10,000 years earlier.
Ashiraya wrote: It amuses me to see Peregrine defend Space Marines, but then, I suppose 'desire to be right' (which he, as usual, is!) overrides 'hatred for Space Marines'.
But yeah, those thinking gangs are going to organise a guerrilla counterattack after seeing Marines butcher everything in their path are waayyyyyy overestimating the gangs. They are crackheads, not samurai.
I agree gangs are not much of a threat. But the rest of the armed populace and military sure could be. In my mind it all depends on what the intent of 'conquer' is. If the invaders intend to actually occupy their lives would be interesting. If 'conquer' just means 'destroy cities from space' there would be some resistance (we can shoot down satellites now) but you can't really prevent the bombardments. Any force attempting to land, even if just conducting raids, will face some problems. I've personally put three 120mm sabot rounds into an area you could cover with a kevlar helmet at over 2k meters. Hitting something as big as a space marine would not be hard, and I suspect a DU penetrator will do bad things to one.
ISR in support of targeting is something I don't see much of in the 40k world. Yeah, some drones are used but our real world capabilities in the ISR realm seem a lot more advanced than the 40k world. Targeting big things like cities is easy.
Melissia wrote: Or maybe the "hatred of space marines" doesn't actually exist to the extent you want to believe it does, and you shouldn't be such an irrational fanboy.
Jesus man, it was a joke (hence ). I am well aware of Peregrine's opinions on Marines and they are fair, it is a subject we have discussed at length. There is no need to instantly go for the throat.
Davor wrote: Just look at the mid east. Nobody can control what is going on there right now even with all the Nukes and state of the art armies and what not. Why? Because you still need to control the population as well. It's not just taking over the government, but the population as well.
Again, because in the real world we can't massacre civilians to accomplish the goal of "peace". We have nukes, but we can't use nukes. The Imperium has no such moral conflicts. Killing civilians as collateral damage in an attack on a military target is a good thing, because it means fewer civilians for the extermination force to kill once the military is destroyed.
All you keep saying is killing. I am saying what the original poster said. How would they CONQUER the earth. Just kill everyone? That is not conquering. That is genocide.
So answer this. You have a few ships. How are they going to take over the earth WITHOUT reinforcements as to the original question.
Define "conquer" Davor - as far as I'm aware, it means taking somewhere by force, whether that ends up in nobody getting killed or everybody getting killed
40K is tricky, because it's medium of choice (written story, tabletop or video game/cinematic) really just goes along with whatever narrative works best. Starships engaging targets hundreds of thousands of kilometers away in BFG, and also broadsiding each other. They can lance targets from orbit with fairly good precision, or just lay waste to continents.
Right, and that's really the issue. 40k isn't consistent even with itself, much less reality, and direct comparisons break down quickly.
Hmm, what you're looking for sorta sounds like a Melta Torpedo or similar weapon. Or, why fire a missile when a lance strike will do? I feel like the strategic niche is covered.
Maybe? Depictions of these vary extremely wildly, but ultimately most 40k battles seem to be fought without fire support from orbital vessels. Naval support for IG seems exceptionally rare while even for Space Marines its portrayal in fluff is more of an exception rather than the rule. And without said naval support no even remotely similar capabilities seem to exist.
That's a good point, but if the Imperium isn't concerned about collateral damage, and is also unconcerned about time and cost (AKA, the IG), then why bother with smart munitions?
Because while the Imperium isn't against spending lives, it doesn't look to actively expend more than it needs to, it just kinda does out of incompetence, but on the attritional and strategic levels the Imperium generally wins its wars on (as opposed to the operational or tactical level where they get butchered all the time), such things would matter a great deal.
I guess it's unclear how accurate orbital bombardment is. The one in 40K (that a Chapter Master calls in) is small, but pretty accurate. The bombardment in Epic 40K was much bigger, but still fairly accurate on that scale.
yeah, Lance strikes alternatively are city killers nuke level weapons or are merely as powerful as an IG Medusa's gun depending on the portrayal. Ostensibly Lances also are something SM's aren't supposed to have lots of either according to the Imperial Navy and Codex Astartes and BFG ships portrayals, but they seem to have Lances sprouting from everyone in most fluff depictions
So, on the one hand you can wave it away and say, "We can't know, the fluff is inconsistent."
But on the other hand you can say: Strike Cruisers of the Space Marines have more than just a single class of weapon on them. They can pinpoint strike with small (in comparison to the ship-to-ship lances the navy uses) lances or torpedoes, they can use much larger weapons to engage whole armored formations (like in Epic), they can level cities (not used in-game, obviously), and they can launch world annihilating cyclonic torpedoes. A Strike Cruiser is a big and complicated ship, and it's got a lot of options available (conveniently viable for multiple game scales).
Marines do officially have "Anti Starship Lances", btw. In Battlefleet Gothic the Nova Frigate is specifically armed with them (and the Navy doesn't like it). But the sort of lance strike that a Chapter Master calls in a regular 40K game obviously isn't that. It's like the difference between a Lasgun and a Lascannon. They're both "Las" weapons, but that's just a description of their method, not their magnitude.
Side note:
Detecting nuclear weapons is not magic. There are multiple programs and technologies that are currently developed or being developed.
Davor wrote: All you keep saying is killing. I am saying what the original poster said. How would they CONQUER the earth. Just kill everyone? That is not conquering. That is genocide.
Taking over the earth's resources (mining, farms, etc) is the only kind of conquering the Imperium is interested in. Even if the Imperium, for act of plot reasons, decided to conquer the civilian population without just killing them all the immediate next step would be to organize industrialized genocide that the Nazis would envy.
General Annoyance wrote:Define "conquer" Davor - as far as I'm aware, it means taking somewhere by force, whether that ends up in nobody getting killed or everybody getting killed
What I view in "conquer" my friend is the enemy taking over the country or in this case the ENTIRE planet of Earth/Terra. While you may not get the population to side with you, you can keep them under control. Like the Romans did with many countries. While the population didn't really follow the Romans they did as they said. So the Romans had lots of man power to keep the population in check.
So that is what I thought the answers to the original's posters question needs to be addressed. What or how many would take to conquer the earth. So in order to conquer the earth what is needed to be done. First you need to defeat the armies of all the countries of earth. I am not saying it can't be done. I am arguing about pacifying the humans to follow the way. Either by brute force, cunning guile combination of both or something else.
Nobody is saying how to "keep the people" in check and to do that how would it be done. Once you have kept the population "in check" you have conquered them.
So, on the one hand you can wave it away and say, "We can't know, the fluff is inconsistent."
But on the other hand you can say: Strike Cruisers of the Space Marines have more than just a single class of weapon on them. They can pinpoint strike with small (in comparison to the ship-to-ship lances the navy uses) lances or torpedoes, they can use much larger weapons to engage whole armored formations (like in Epic), they can level cities (not used in-game, obviously), and they can launch world annihilating cyclonic torpedoes. A Strike Cruiser is a big and complicated ship, and it's got a lot of options available (conveniently viable for multiple game scales).
In some sense sure, though and atmosphere would make many of those smaller weapons dramatically less capable at engaging ground targets, but it's also an area where it's never actually differentiated like that in the fluff, at least as far as I can recall. The only torpedoes I can recall for instance are the huge ICBM sized behemoths carrying massive warheads that are used against other gigantic starships and to deliver massive payloads of strategic level devastation to planets. Lances we see used more widely but the background seems to treat them all as being the actual same weapon with just wildly different capabilities depending on the game you're playing
Marines do officially have "Anti Starship Lances", btw. In Battlefleet Gothic the Nova Frigate is specifically armed with them (and the Navy doesn't like it).
Right, but they don't have tons of them. Lances tend to be relatively rare equipment for Space Marine fleets, with the overwhelmingly vast majority of Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers lacking them completely, with only relatively rare "character" vessels getting them.
But the sort of lance strike that a Chapter Master calls in a regular 40K game obviously isn't that. It's like the difference between a Lasgun and a Lascannon. They're both "Las" weapons, but that's just a description of their method, not their magnitude.
Perhaps, and I could buy that, but I don't recall any such distinction made anywhere in any actual fluff.
Side note:
Detecting nuclear weapons is not magic. There are multiple programs and technologies that are currently developed or being developed.
My understanding of these technologies is that they're intended to detect devices that may be hidden in cargo containers or smuggled in a truck or the like, something where the mild radiation can be picked up, and not a warhead inside a missile deep underground beneath many tons of concrete, steel and earth that will completely block all that mild radiation from escaping.
Pop off a couple rounds from behind a wall a couple hundred meters away just to land a couple shots near the SM's and then skate away, and you're probably not instantly dead by any means. That sort of thing happens all the time in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. And while it may not delay troops for many hours, it may (or may not) delay them critically for a few minutes while they ascertain what they're being engaged by so they know they're not walking into a bigger ambush or something, which can mean the difference between the SM's accomplishing their mission in time or not.
The auto-senses in the helmet of the PA means you get a bolter round to the grill the second your head pops out around cover. Space Marines are super-humanly fast, with reactions that cannot be matched by unaugmented humans.
Pop off a couple rounds from behind a wall a couple hundred meters away just to land a couple shots near the SM's and then skate away, and you're probably not instantly dead by any means. That sort of thing happens all the time in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. And while it may not delay troops for many hours, it may (or may not) delay them critically for a few minutes while they ascertain what they're being engaged by so they know they're not walking into a bigger ambush or something, which can mean the difference between the SM's accomplishing their mission in time or not.
The auto-senses in the helmet of the PA means you get a bolter round to the grill the second your head pops out around cover. Space Marines are super-humanly fast, with reactions that cannot be matched by unaugmented humans.
Sure they're superhumanly fast and have auto-senses. It doesn't mean that they can instantly react and neutralize every combatant that pops up for the briefest period of times from any direction or distance. Even in the fluff, instances of stuff like that is very rare and generally used to make an impact of how "zomgwtfbbqamazeballs" Space Marines are when initially introduced to the story, in fact I can only recall one such instance of anything like that off the top of my head, the same book that described the inside of a normal Baneblade as being large enough to house a command center that a dozen people could stand up an walk around in despite us having cutaway multiple drawings from both FW and GW showing them easily as cramped as early Submarines
If Space Marines were capable of stuff like that all the time in a routine manner, it would be against most depictions and portrayals presented of them.
Davor wrote: While you may not get the population to side with you, you can keep them under control. Like the Romans did with many countries. While the population didn't really follow the Romans they did as they said. So the Romans had lots of man power to keep the population in check.
That is not how the Imperium works. The Imperium does not allow xenos and heretics to live as slaves, it exterminates them. If the people are "under control" it is only because it's more efficient to organize them and send them off to death camps and industrialized killing than to have IG execution teams going house to house killing everyone one lasgun shot at a time.
That is not how the Imperium works. The Imperium does not allow xenos and heretics to live as slaves, it exterminates them. If the people are "under control" it is only because it's more efficient to organize them and send them off to death camps and industrialized killing than to have IG execution teams going house to house killing everyone one lasgun shot at a time.
Question is, would Earth be considered to be a heretical world or not, and on what basis? We're all human, and if psychic energy doesn't exist, then the Imperium just got enough blanks to prevent Chaos from seeping into the material realm once and for all
Still, this thread has got really confusing what are we actually agreeing/disagreeing on here?
Either way, if we can have the XCOM project, Xenos invasion will be impossible
Vaktathi wrote: In some sense sure, though and atmosphere would make many of those smaller weapons dramatically less capable at engaging ground targets, but it's also an area where it's never actually differentiated like that in the fluff, at least as far as I can recall. The only torpedoes I can recall for instance are the huge ICBM sized behemoths carrying massive warheads that are used against other gigantic starships and to deliver massive payloads of strategic level devastation to planets. Lances we see used more widely but the background seems to treat them all as being the actual same weapon with just wildly different capabilities depending on the game you're playing
They're definitely not the same weapons. Strike Cruisers have "lance batteries" that can be used to hit relatively small areas on the surface of the planet. Strike Cruisers did not have lances that could engage other starships in BFG, as the 40K Strike Cruiser "lance batteries" would be insignificant. It's more like a point defense weapon, maybe something glossed over in the rolls for fighter action against battleships in BFG.. A BFG style "capital" lance in 40K would be some sort of super-D weapon that would cleave a Warlord Titan in half.
Examples of other small munitions are the Orbital Strike from the Witch Hunters codex. Where as a heavy support choice you could buy a Lance Strike, Melta Torpedo, or Psyk-out Warhead as part of a "limited strike" (from the sidebar text) from an orbiting spacecraft.
My understanding of these technologies is that they're intended to detect devices that may be hidden in cargo containers or smuggled in a truck or the like, something where the mild radiation can be picked up, and not a warhead inside a missile deep underground beneath many tons of concrete, steel and earth that will completely block all that mild radiation from escaping.
As any technology for scanning/detection, there's simple, cheaper solutions that can work in ports for example, where proximity can be easy, but there are other (probably more expensive) technologies that seem to work at a much greater distance. There's also different solutions for different threats. "Dirty bombs" are much less specific in their material and much smaller in the amount, but more common and easier to smuggle. (need cheaper, more numerous solutions) Nuclear bombs are a different animal though, and need much greater quantities of more specific material, and so are easier to detect if unshielded. I don't recall specifics, sorry. I remember something about shielding, and something about multiple overlapping techniques, and also being able to easily spot "black" areas where there was obvious shielding. It'd take some digging to have more clear descriptions and unfortunately I don't have the luxury at the moment. Detecting concentrations of radioactive material from space is definitely in the "non-magical" realm of feasibility though. If not reality then "hard" sci-fi.
Asterios wrote: and I repeat you drastically underestimate humans.
And you don't seem to understand how humans react to hopeless situations. You're expecting random thugs with handguns to stand their ground and fight as they're blown apart by the hundreds and their weapons barely scratch the paint on their killers. A gang member might be willing to do a drive-by on a rival dealer, but that's not at all the same as facing certain death to fire one last shot as their best friend is torn in half by a chainsword. Morale would be a serious issue for professional soldiers, gangs are going to break and run when exposed to that horror.
you would be surprised how many drive-bys would be going on and such.
Very few, because a drive-by would be committing suicide for the sake of forcing the marines to spend some bolter rounds. Shooting from a moving car means not being able to concentrate fire and have any hope of penetrating power armor, and return fire from the marines is going to turn the car (and everyone inside) into a ball of blood-splattered wreckage. If you have a car in the horrifying slaughter of a space marine attack you're going to use it to get as far away as possible.
not too mention the military trained gang members which even the FBI is worried over.
And, again, the FBI is not the space marines. The FBI has normal humans that can be killed just like any other humans. Space marines have 10' tall walking tanks that are virtually immune to anything short of anti-tank weapons. An ambush that would kill a whole group of FBI agents probably wouldn't even scratch the paint on a squad of marines. And, unlike the FBI, the marines are free to call in an artillery strike in retaliation and level a whole city block before continuing on.
and i repeat you underestimate humans, they have the option to fight or die, there is no in between, furthermore even our own Government has been forced to send the Military in on gangs, so you drastically underestimate gangs and i'm not talking those teeny bopper wannabe thugs, but real gangs.
people have no clue of the devastation the Space Marines would unleash upon the Earth, they think the SM's will be making deals and nicety niceness, they will not, they have one objective and that is to burn the Heretic and as far as they will be concerned this entire planet is populated by Heretics, we do not worship their God Emperor so we are heratics, we worship other gods if any so we are Heretics, we use Technology of our own designs and worship our technology in its own way, so we are Heretics, so when people realize the SM's are here for one purpose and that is to kill us we will not go quietly into that good night, they will not take prisoners, they will not grant mercy other then a bolter round to the head, its either die or fight, me i'd rather fight and i'm sure many people would do the same enough to outnumber and take down the SM's
Davor wrote: While you may not get the population to side with you, you can keep them under control. Like the Romans did with many countries. While the population didn't really follow the Romans they did as they said. So the Romans had lots of man power to keep the population in check.
That is not how the Imperium works. The Imperium does not allow xenos and heretics to live as slaves, it exterminates them. If the people are "under control" it is only because it's more efficient to organize them and send them off to death camps and industrialized killing than to have IG execution teams going house to house killing everyone one lasgun shot at a time.
Please answer the question and stop moving the goal posts to make yourself correct.
Davor wrote: While you may not get the population to side with you, you can keep them under control. Like the Romans did with many countries. While the population didn't really follow the Romans they did as they said. So the Romans had lots of man power to keep the population in check.
That is not how the Imperium works. The Imperium does not allow xenos and heretics to live as slaves, it exterminates them. If the people are "under control" it is only because it's more efficient to organize them and send them off to death camps and industrialized killing than to have IG execution teams going house to house killing everyone one lasgun shot at a time.
Yes but manpower is also the currency of the Imperium, there are many examples of uprisings and conquered planets where the human population is allowed to live. The only situation they would be exterminated no questions asked would be if they are following a chaos or xeno relgion, in most other cases they would be killed *until* they decided to surrender and worship the emperor.
I'll list out what I think it would take for each faction and why. I'm sure I'll miss some detail that would affect outcomes for each faction, but I'll probably miss just as many details that would affect outcomes for earth. Additionally, I'm assuming "conquering" not "destroying" earth, as in an invasion and not exterminatus.
Spoiler:
Astra militarum - Needs a full fleet of ships because while void shields will stop most weapons, we could easily overwhelm small numbers of capital ships with the sheer number and power of our nukes. Once on the ground, the Astra Militarum has the numbers, but not the technology to really win. Their tactics are simply outdated. Masses of guardsmen will die fast to modern ordnance. IG tanks are inaccurate and completely outranged by modern armor. Their aircraft have laughably short effective ranges and would be destroyed by missiles from fighter jets miles away.
Space Marines - All of them. The world is a big place with over 7 billion people in it. You cannot conquer it with 1000 people (the average chapter) sorry. You'd need a lot of chapters, or support from the astra militarum as space marines simply can't be everywhere at once and don't have the bodies to do it. Otherwise space marines fall prey to most of the same flaws the IG does. Even if the drop pods make it to the ground, they will then be stuck on foot or in tanks, and will promptly be wiped out by the sheer amount of ordnance we have (bombs, artillery, rockets, etc...). Their armor may make them immune to most small arms fire, but missiles, .50 cals, cannons, you name it will hurt them especially if you hit an opening between any of those plates.
Ad mech- A small fleet. They would fare much better than most of the other imperial factions for the sole reason that they are skilled in cyber warfare and most importantly logistics. Other than these reasons.. they have the same weaknesses as the other imperial factions.
Sister of Battle- Same as Astra Militarum.
Genestealers - Just 1. Honestly... I think they'd have the easiest time since it is a threat we cannot detect or see easily. That is what makes this dangerous to us.
Tyranids - 1 Hive tendril. They will simply overwhelm us with sheer volume of forces. We would have no chance just as most imperial worlds would have no chance by that point.
Necrons - 1 tomb ship. The crons have the technology to mess with ours and scramble our computers, this is truly what will make them win. Their ability to reassemble themselves, their hyper futuristic weapons, and most importantly, their lack of a need for any real logistics is what will make them win too. 1 tomb ship should provide enough bodies and vehicles to conquer earth.
Eldar - 1 fleet or a few webway gates. The speed of the Eldar would be their greatest asset as that is the only viable counter to today's weaponry besides cyber warfare, however they suffer again from most of the same drawbacks as the other imperial factions. Their weaponry is simply too short range, too inaccurate, and their armor will be defeated by sheer amounts of ordnance. They will fare better than most imperial armies though since their machines seem to move by methods that don't produce any heat, making heat seeking ordnance harder to use. They will have a harder time in other ways though as they require logistics unlike space marines or crons. They do still have to eat after all.
Dark Eldar - Same as Eldar
Orks - Just 1... kind of, or a fleet. Robust bodies are largely useless against modern small arms fire without some kind of armor, and the armor they do use is made up of the materials present around them.. mainly.. the metals we have here on earth, which will be totally useless against most heavier modern weapons. I don't think orks would have any sort of easy time as their weapons fall pray to the same problems the imperial army's weapons do, and they have completely non-existent cyber warfare. I think the orks would pretty much land, cause a nuisance, and not ever be able to be completely wiped out, but would never accomplish anything close to conquering the world.
Chaos Space marines- Hard to say. If taking the planet by force, they will be in the same boat as Imperial Space marines. If taking planet by religious conversion, they will fare better. I still don't think they'll win as a bunch of demon worshippers isn't going to go unnoticed by most religions and countries in the world once they got big enough and we've already shown to ourselves that holy wars are totally a thing we are willing to do.
Chaos Demons- A full scale incursion, or at least a stable warp gate. Demons break all the rules of reality. Modern weapons may or may not work based on the whims of the warp and they can appear literally anywhere in the world that the chaos gods want them to. They will terrify and destroy the morale of most soldiers and corrupt many others. Chaos demons would probably have the easiest time taking he planet by force as even just 1 demon prince or greater demon can cause a chain effect and just keep bringing in numberless amounts of demons before we would be able to stop them.
Tau- 1 small fleet. They still need bodies like most other factions, however they have better ranged weapons than the other factions, and more importantly, a concept of cyber warfare. They are probably the best at surviving nukes in orbit as they seem to have the best tracking systems for shooting them down. Additionally, they understand logistics and adaptive lightning tactics. Their crisis suits are fast enough and well armored enough that they would be a major problem for troops on the ground as they move too quick for most ordnance to work on them and they are able to close in fast enough that close support aircraft won't want to fire on them for risk of hitting our own guys. Tau have a good set up because they are technologically advanced, understand tactics, understand logistics, have long range weaponry, and are a highly mobile, professional army. Admittedly though, their aircraft still can't shake a stick at ours.. we simply outrange theirs by miles, and with no air support they will have a very tough time with us.
I would say 1 Ork could conquer the entire world... In time.
One Ork shows up, starts a fight, kills some people, then gets shot to death. Even if the body is cremated, spores have already been released.
Then, a few years(?) later (I don't know how long it takes Orks to grow), more Orks show up. They still get killed, but they cause a little more damage this time. More spores are released.
Repeat the cycle ad nauseam, until eventually the Orks have the numbers to win.
All it takes is someone (like a 40k fan, maybe) to figure out the spore thing and then have people destroy said spores. Also heard that fungi are vulnerable to disease because of something about their DNA, so that would work too.
1 thing i find interesting is the frequent use of Nukes as an argument in this thread. We would not want to use nukes on orbiting ships for 1 simple reason. EMPs, detonating a nuke in orbit is well within the ionosphere, that thing protecting us from space death wind, so the full EMP effect would cover all the land in LOS underneath it (whole continents in this case) and fry all those precious electronics we love using and communicate with. all but the hardest shielded that is. So by nuking an orbiting ship, we would destroy ourselves.
if the ship was farther out, they can just scoot out of the way in time.
40k society is till "human" society, but with 38K more years of immuno-resistance built in. so if it works on them (which it does) it would work on us.
pumaman1 wrote: 40k society is till "human" society, but with 38K more years of immuno-resistance built in. so if it works on them (which it does) it would work on us.
not necessarily, their entire history differs from ours so odds are our physiology would differ too.
pumaman1 wrote: 1 thing i find interesting is the frequent use of Nukes as an argument in this thread. We would not want to use nukes on orbiting ships for 1 simple reason. EMPs, detonating a nuke in orbit is well within the ionosphere, that thing protecting us from space death wind, so the full EMP effect would cover all the land in LOS underneath it (whole continents in this case) and fry all those precious electronics we love using and communicate with. all but the hardest shielded that is. So by nuking an orbiting ship, we would destroy ourselves.
if the ship was farther out, they can just scoot out of the way in time.
Plus we don't actually have proven ground-to-space delivery systems fit for combat applications.
One Ork shows up, starts a fight, kills some people, then gets shot to death. Even if the body is cremated, spores have already been released.
Then, a few years(?) later (I don't know how long it takes Orks to grow), more Orks show up. They still get killed, but they cause a little more damage this time. More spores are released.
Repeat the cycle ad nauseam, until eventually the Orks have the numbers to win.
One ork dropped in the African jungle. It wouldn't even have to kill people, just tear around with the hostile wild life (which they do) for so long that it'd be a legion of the things before anyone relevant was aware of it.
pumaman1 wrote: 1 thing i find interesting is the frequent use of Nukes as an argument in this thread. We would not want to use nukes on orbiting ships for 1 simple reason. EMPs, detonating a nuke in orbit is well within the ionosphere, that thing protecting us from space death wind, so the full EMP effect would cover all the land in LOS underneath it (whole continents in this case) and fry all those precious electronics we love using and communicate with. all but the hardest shielded that is. So by nuking an orbiting ship, we would destroy ourselves.
if the ship was farther out, they can just scoot out of the way in time.
Plus we don't actually have proven ground-to-space delivery systems fit for combat applications.
Or even meteor defense at this point.
Yeah, actually we do have proven ground to space delivery systems especially for combat. Maybe not a lot, but anti-sattelite capability definitely exists. At least three countries have successfully tested them.
pumaman1 wrote: 1 thing i find interesting is the frequent use of Nukes as an argument in this thread. We would not want to use nukes on orbiting ships for 1 simple reason. EMPs, detonating a nuke in orbit is well within the ionosphere, that thing protecting us from space death wind, so the full EMP effect would cover all the land in LOS underneath it (whole continents in this case) and fry all those precious electronics we love using and communicate with. all but the hardest shielded that is. So by nuking an orbiting ship, we would destroy ourselves.
if the ship was farther out, they can just scoot out of the way in time.
Plus we don't actually have proven ground-to-space delivery systems fit for combat applications.
Or even meteor defense at this point.
Yeah, actually we do have proven ground to space delivery systems especially for combat. Maybe not a lot, but anti-sattelite capability definitely exists. At least three countries have successfully tested them.
pumaman1 wrote: 1 thing i find interesting is the frequent use of Nukes as an argument in this thread. We would not want to use nukes on orbiting ships for 1 simple reason. EMPs, detonating a nuke in orbit is well within the ionosphere, that thing protecting us from space death wind, so the full EMP effect would cover all the land in LOS underneath it (whole continents in this case) and fry all those precious electronics we love using and communicate with. all but the hardest shielded that is. So by nuking an orbiting ship, we would destroy ourselves.
if the ship was farther out, they can just scoot out of the way in time.
Plus we don't actually have proven ground-to-space delivery systems fit for combat applications.
Or even meteor defense at this point.
Yeah, actually we do have proven ground to space delivery systems especially for combat. Maybe not a lot, but anti-sattelite capability definitely exists. At least three countries have successfully tested them.
Pardon, I meant specifically for nuclear weapons.
At least the US has indeed tested that, just without the warhead. The purposely aimed X distance from the target satellite with a nuke capable missile, and hit the point in space they were shooting for. That was quite a bit ago, current targeting systems are a lot better. A 'hard kill' (actually hitting the satellite) is MUCH harder.
And by definition ICBMs exit the atmosphere and are nuke capable. Would not be too difficult to reprogram warhead release points to engage targets in orbit.
Further, the damaing principal of the nuke in atmosphere is the intense heat and pressure wave. heats needs a medium to travel through, and so does pressure. Not that the radioactive blasts would do nothing, but with nothing to concuss the in orbit ships with, the larges to parts of the nuke will be neutered, and need more or less a direct hit to do damage.
pumaman1 wrote: Further, the damaing principal of the nuke in atmosphere is the intense heat and pressure wave. heats needs a medium to travel through, and so does pressure. Not that the radioactive blasts would do nothing, but with nothing to concuss the in orbit ships with, the larges to parts of the nuke will be neutered, and need more or less a direct hit to do damage.
Are 40k space ships bigger than our satellites? We can hit those satellites.
Just gonna repost this about comparing those ships to near orbit satellites (the kind we shot down)
1 thing i find interesting is the frequent use of Nukes as an argument in this thread. We would not want to use nukes on orbiting ships for 1 simple reason. EMPs, detonating a nuke in orbit is well within the ionosphere, that thing protecting us from space death wind, so the full EMP effect would cover all the land in LOS underneath it (whole continents in this case) and fry all those precious electronics we love using and communicate with. all but the hardest shielded that is. So by nuking an orbiting ship, we would destroy ourselves.
if the ship was farther out, they can just scoot out of the way in time.
pumaman1 wrote: Just gonna repost this about comparing those ships to near orbit satellites (the kind we shot down)
1 thing i find interesting is the frequent use of Nukes as an argument in this thread. We would not want to use nukes on orbiting ships for 1 simple reason. EMPs, detonating a nuke in orbit is well within the ionosphere, that thing protecting us from space death wind, so the full EMP effect would cover all the land in LOS underneath it (whole continents in this case) and fry all those precious electronics we love using and communicate with. all but the hardest shielded that is. So by nuking an orbiting ship, we would destroy ourselves.
if the ship was farther out, they can just scoot out of the way in time.
actually the only way an EMP would effect the Earth bound Electronics is if it was a low orbit/high atmosphere explosion, and any ships in such a low orbit would crash and burn. next?
Congrats! you took out 1 ship, and a continent you were trying to defend!
They probably had a void shield, and more than 1 ship. and and EMP will affect earth electronics as long as it is within the Ionosphere, which starts at 60 km and continues to 1000 km.
and again, the farther out it is, the longer they have to "redirect energy to the forward shields!" or just move, because our missiles out of atmosphere are going to be hard pressed to make a fairly tight turn.
pumaman1 wrote: Congrats! you took out 1 ship, and a continent you were trying to defend!
They probably had a void shield, and more than 1 ship. and and EMP will affect earth electronics as long as it is within the Ionosphere, which starts at 60 km and continues to 1000 km.
and again, the farther out it is, the longer they have to "redirect energy to the forward shields!" or just move, because our missiles out of atmosphere are going to be hard pressed to make a fairly tight turn.
no we just crashed all those ships that got too low in our atmosphere you do know the Ionosphere is like 40 to 600 miles up ? and that it is made up of Electrically charged particles? and you do realize our own satellites orbit much higher then that in the sweet zone (for Geosynch orbit) around 36,000 Kilometers or so above the planet surface which is considerably higher then the 1,000 kilometers the Ionosphere ends at ? or that anything orbiting in the Ionosphere will not last long? take our own ISS which orbits at about 249 miles and is constantly having to make changes in its orbit. and it is constantly orbiting the earth, the SM ship would want to plant its behind in one spot so would need to go higher to the sweet spot mentioned above. furthermore the use of void shields in the Ionosphere would pretty much mess up the ship itself with a charged shield in a charged atmosphere, make not for good bedfellows.
Void shields aren't power fields (which Orks have), they're bubble shaped warp gates dumping impacts and radiation directly into the warp... depending on who's writing.
As for electric interference on the Imperial ships, I suddenly get why they have bio-based servitors and clockwork driven computation systems. There's at least one AdMech ship (HellForged) which was noted as using parchment and compasses for real-time navigation & targetting.
malamis wrote: Void shields aren't power fields (which Orks have), they're bubble shaped warp gates dumping impacts and radiation directly into the warp... depending on who's writing.
As for electric interference on the Imperial ships, I suddenly get why they have bio-based servitors and clockwork driven computation systems. There's at least one AdMech ship (HellForged) which was noted as using parchment and compasses for real-time navigation & targetting.
on Void Shields I know but the "gate" as you call it is encased within an electric stasis type field to essentially prevent it from sucking everything up., and yet the ships systems themselves are Electrically ran.
pumaman1 wrote: Further, the damaing principal of the nuke in atmosphere is the intense heat and pressure wave. heats needs a medium to travel through, and so does pressure. Not that the radioactive blasts would do nothing, but with nothing to concuss the in orbit ships with, the larges to parts of the nuke will be neutered, and need more or less a direct hit to do damage.
Er, what? Heat does pretty well on its own without any atmosphere. Or maybe you can explain how the sun warms the earth?
pumaman1 wrote: Further, the damaing principal of the nuke in atmosphere is the intense heat and pressure wave. heats needs a medium to travel through, and so does pressure. Not that the radioactive blasts would do nothing, but with nothing to concuss the in orbit ships with, the larges to parts of the nuke will be neutered, and need more or less a direct hit to do damage.
Heat does not need a medium. If it did the Earth would be very, very cold right now.
And getting a direct hit on a spaceship which is multiple kilometres in size sitting in orbit around our planet is a piece of cake. We managed to land a probe on a comet of a similar size recently, which is a lot more complex than hitting something in orbit due to having to account for multiple large shifts in the strength of the gravitational forces acting upon the probe as it travelled through the solar system.
and again, the farther out it is, the longer they have to "redirect energy to the forward shields!" or just move, because our missiles out of atmosphere are going to be hard pressed to make a fairly tight turn.
A large ship has a large mass. A large mass means a large force is required for a large acceleration. A large acceleration is required for a tight turn. In our physical world, large ships are not going to have the engine power required to evade a nuclear missile and would instead have to rely on shooting them down. Which will be pretty tricky when a load of MIRVs are headed their way. Finding small objects in space is pretty difficult, then having the accuracy to shoot them, even more so.
pumaman1 wrote: Just gonna repost this about comparing those ships to near orbit satellites (the kind we shot down)
1 thing i find interesting is the frequent use of Nukes as an argument in this thread. We would not want to use nukes on orbiting ships for 1 simple reason. EMPs, detonating a nuke in orbit is well within the ionosphere, that thing protecting us from space death wind, so the full EMP effect would cover all the land in LOS underneath it (whole continents in this case) and fry all those precious electronics we love using and communicate with. all but the hardest shielded that is. So by nuking an orbiting ship, we would destroy ourselves.
if the ship was farther out, they can just scoot out of the way in time.
also if heat needed a medium, then tell me how did our ships travel to the moon? unless you mean fire, but fire is a wholly different situation then heat in that aspect.
you do realize with no atmosphere to slow the explosive force down, it would expand very fast? its like well the movie Wall-E when he used the fire extinguisher to move around in space, there was no friction, no slowing him down or the expulsion of the fire retardant it just shot him around, same happens with an explosion, in fact its one theory of potential space travel exploding a small nuclear bomb behind the ship and using the energy to push the ship thru space, you have a missile launched from high atmosphere bombers at said ships they will have low evasion time if they even notice the small blips and know what they are, and if just one of those nukes hits the ship and lodges a hole in it, when it explodes it will tear the ship apart due to the atmosphere in the ship and the explosion needing to expand.
A Town Called Malus wrote: A large ship has a large mass. A large mass means a large force is required for a large acceleration. A large acceleration is required for a tight turn. In our physical world, large ships are not going to have the engine power required to evade a nuclear missile and would instead have to rely on shooting them down. Which will be pretty tricky when a load of MIRVs are headed their way. Finding small objects in space is pretty difficult, then having the accuracy to shoot them, even more so.
mass in space is almost a non-eligible factor, in fact these designs of sleek ships and such are not needed since mass is not effected much in space, now if the ship is in the Ionosphere like he suggests then yes Mass would play a critical effect in the ship and a simple non-nuclear explosive would be enough to destroy the ship from the energy output of said explosion.
A Town Called Malus wrote: And getting a direct hit on a spaceship which is multiple kilometres in size sitting in orbit around our planet is a piece of cake. We managed to land a probe on a comet of a similar size recently, which is a lot more complex than hitting something in orbit due to having to account for multiple large shifts in the strength of the gravitational forces acting upon the probe as it travelled through the solar system.
No, it's much simpler to land a probe on a comet. The math of the trajectory is complicated, but all of the effects are known. Once you calculate all of the relevant information you know exactly where you're going, and you just have to execute the path correctly. But starships have a key difference: they can dodge. ICBMs are not homing weapons, even a relatively modest evasive maneuver will dodge one entirely.
A large ship has a large mass. A large mass means a large force is required for a large acceleration. A large acceleration is required for a tight turn. In our physical world, large ships are not going to have the engine power required to evade a nuclear missile and would instead have to rely on shooting them down. Which will be pretty tricky when a load of MIRVs are headed their way. Finding small objects in space is pretty difficult, then having the accuracy to shoot them, even more so.
40k ships are not real-world ships. We know that they have a lot of raw power from their engines, and that MIRV salvo is completely unguided. For example, just the very briefest of searches turns up this source for a Lunar-class cruiser being capable of 2.5g sustained acceleration. That's obscenely high by real-world standards.
Also, finding small objects in space is pretty easy. Much easier, in fact, than finding them on a planet.
While I am glad that I asked such a popular question, I can't but help to feel that we have drifted away from the intent of my question. Yes, any civilization that has an orbital weapons platform that is several kilometers long would be able to flatten the planet of earth in a matter of minuets. And the way that I worded my question allows for that.
But, my intent was to focus on ground combat. I want to know how many ground slogging SM or CSM or Tau infantry would be needed to take earth. I had wanted to hear about how the M240 and M2 Browning stacked up against a heavy stubber. I wanted to here about what you guys though of the Mk 19 full auto-gernade launcher and if the SM or IG would want to keep it for their own. I wanted to know if the M242 Bushmaster was equal to an autocannon and, if so, where that put the Gofors 40 mm. Can a SM take a shell from a 120mm smooth-bore canon and walk it off?
I'm an IG guy, I could care less about space ships. Yeah, they are cool and all, but how are the ground forces going to work?
Asterios wrote: you do realize with no atmosphere to slow the explosive force down, it would expand very fast?
...
Explosive force does not exist without an atmosphere. The damage from an explosion is done by a high pressure wave, without an atmosphere (or equivalent medium, such as an underwater explosion) to carry the wave you get nothing at all. There might be a very very small pressure wave carried by the vaporized material of the warhead itself, but this will almost immediately drop to zero as that limited amount of material spreads out to insignificance.
A Town Called Malus wrote: And getting a direct hit on a spaceship which is multiple kilometres in size sitting in orbit around our planet is a piece of cake. We managed to land a probe on a comet of a similar size recently, which is a lot more complex than hitting something in orbit due to having to account for multiple large shifts in the strength of the gravitational forces acting upon the probe as it travelled through the solar system.
No, it's much simpler to land a probe on a comet. The math of the trajectory is complicated, but all of the effects are known. Once you calculate all of the relevant information you know exactly where you're going, and you just have to execute the path correctly. But starships have a key difference: they can dodge. ICBMs are not homing weapons, even a relatively modest evasive maneuver will dodge one entirely.
A large ship has a large mass. A large mass means a large force is required for a large acceleration. A large acceleration is required for a tight turn. In our physical world, large ships are not going to have the engine power required to evade a nuclear missile and would instead have to rely on shooting them down. Which will be pretty tricky when a load of MIRVs are headed their way. Finding small objects in space is pretty difficult, then having the accuracy to shoot them, even more so.
40k ships are not real-world ships. We know that they have a lot of raw power from their engines, and that MIRV salvo is completely unguided. For example, just the very briefest of searches turns up this source for a Lunar-class cruiser being capable of 2.5g sustained acceleration. That's obscenely high by real-world standards.
Also, finding small objects in space is pretty easy. Much easier, in fact, than finding them on a planet.
you really do not know about Gyroscope technology? or systems guidance? really? with all the smart bombs flying about? also landing on a comet is not as easy as you say it is, hell our attempt even screwed that up considering a comet is effected by anything and everything from gravitational forces brought on by planets and such, we put the probe in the ball park but it still missed its planned target it got on the comet but not in the spot we wanted it too.
Asterios wrote: you do realize with no atmosphere to slow the explosive force down, it would expand very fast?
...
Explosive force does not exist without an atmosphere. The damage from an explosion is done by a high pressure wave, without an atmosphere (or equivalent medium, such as an underwater explosion) to carry the wave you get nothing at all. There might be a very very small pressure wave carried by the vaporized material of the warhead itself, but this will almost immediately drop to zero as that limited amount of material spreads out to insignificance.
really then all those scientists planning on using explosive force as an optional way of space travel know nothing? you are smarter then NASA and all of them?
Asterios wrote: no we just crashed all those ships that got too low in our atmosphere
Or you did absolutely nothing to those ships. EMP is not a magic auto-win, it is possible to harden electronics against EMP even with real-world technology. The primary threat of EMP is to civilian systems. Knocking out the civilian power grid and billions of dollars in civilian electronics is a major loss even if the military doesn't see much disruption.
Asterios wrote: no we just crashed all those ships that got too low in our atmosphere
Or you did absolutely nothing to those ships. EMP is not a magic auto-win, it is possible to harden electronics against EMP even with real-world technology. The primary threat of EMP is to civilian systems. Knocking out the civilian power grid and billions of dollars in civilian electronics is a major loss even if the military doesn't see much disruption.
whos talking EMP's ? i'm talking the ships burning up since they would have to expand so much energy to stay in the atmosphere they would not be able to do anything. The bigger the item is the faster it falls down and without course corrections to adjust altitude they would plummet within a couple hours in the upper Ionosphere.
Actually Peregrine, modern MIRVs are all capable of independent targeting, using their own propellant, of each individual warhead over a spread of around a couple hundred kilometres.
Asterios wrote: you really do not know about Gyroscope technology? or systems guidance? really? with all the smart bombs flying about?
Do you understand the difference between "guided" and "homing"? A GPS-guided bomb can very precisely hit a pre-programmed location. It can not maneuver to keep up with an evading target. If the target evades the GPS-guided weapon will continue on and very precisely hit the original target. ICBMs are in the same situation: they can be guided to hit a pre-programmed target, but they have no homing capability at all. If the target is not where you told an ICBM to deliver its warheads they will all miss.
also landing on a comet is not as easy as you say it is, hell our attempt even screwed that up considering a comet is effected by anything and everything from gravitational forces brought on by planets and such, we put the probe in the ball park but it still missed its planned target it got on the comet but not in the spot we wanted it too.
I didn't say it was easy in an absolute sense, I said it was simpler than hitting an evading starship. It requires very precise calculations and the ability to very precisely execute the calculated trajectory, but from a physics point of view it's a very straightforward problem. It's much simpler than hitting an evading target with a ballistic weapon, especially when that evading target is capable of acceleration well beyond any real-world spacecraft.
really then all those scientists planning on using explosive force as an optional way of space travel know nothing? you are smarter then NASA and all of them?
No, because nobody at NASA would argue that you can have an explosion in space. This is just basic physics. Explosions require a medium to carry the pressure wave. End of discussion, if you argue otherwise you are simply wrong.
Did you even read that article? Orion works because each nuke carries its own reaction mass. An ICBM warhead is not going to be carrying a huge pile of tungsten as reaction mass, nor is it going to use a "shaped charge" nuke intended to focus as much energy as possible into that reaction mass.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Town Called Malus wrote: Actually Peregrine, modern MIRVs are all capable of independent targeting, using their own propellant, of each individual warhead over a spread of around a couple hundred kilometres.
Again, targeting and homing are not the same thing. A MIRV warhead can precisely aim itself onto a ballistic trajectory that will hit a target location, and each warhead in the cluster can be given its own target (within a fairly small divergence from the original course). It doesn't carry, for example, an infrared seeker to home in on a target's thermal signature and enough additional fuel to make course corrections to follow that target. To hit a 40k ship in orbit you'd have to program each MIRV missile to disperse its warheads across a wide area of space and hope that your target ends up maneuvering into one of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asterios wrote: i'm talking the ships burning up since they would have to expand so much energy to stay in the atmosphere they would not be able to do anything. The bigger the item is the faster it falls down and without course corrections to adjust altitude they would plummet within a couple hours in the upper Ionosphere.
Asterios wrote: you really do not know about Gyroscope technology? or systems guidance? really? with all the smart bombs flying about?
Do you understand the difference between "guided" and "homing"? A GPS-guided bomb can very precisely hit a pre-programmed location. It can not maneuver to keep up with an evading target. If the target evades the GPS-guided weapon will continue on and very precisely hit the original target. ICBMs are in the same situation: they can be guided to hit a pre-programmed target, but they have no homing capability at all. If the target is not where you told an ICBM to deliver its warheads they will all miss.
also landing on a comet is not as easy as you say it is, hell our attempt even screwed that up considering a comet is effected by anything and everything from gravitational forces brought on by planets and such, we put the probe in the ball park but it still missed its planned target it got on the comet but not in the spot we wanted it too.
I didn't say it was easy in an absolute sense, I said it was simpler than hitting an evading starship. It requires very precise calculations and the ability to very precisely execute the calculated trajectory, but from a physics point of view it's a very straightforward problem. It's much simpler than hitting an evading target with a ballistic weapon, especially when that evading target is capable of acceleration well beyond any real-world spacecraft.
really then all those scientists planning on using explosive force as an optional way of space travel know nothing? you are smarter then NASA and all of them?
No, because nobody at NASA would argue that you can have an explosion in space. This is just basic physics. Explosions require a medium to carry the pressure wave. End of discussion, if you argue otherwise you are simply wrong.
Did you even read that article? Orion works because each nuke carries its own reaction mass. An ICBM warhead is not going to be carrying a huge pile of tungsten as reaction mass, nor is it going to use a "shaped charge" nuke intended to focus as much energy as possible into that reaction mass.
lets see missile crashes into ship, exposing it to ships innards, missile explodes hmm sounds like NASA would disagree with you. especially considering the puncture of the ship (no explosion needed) would be enough to cause a loss of atmosphere explosion, and yes read the article saw the film and all that, and you do know nuclear missiles have tungsten cores right? and really those missiles going after jets and such, are just one shots and will miss? hmm me thinks a simple heat guided system going after the biggest heat object in orbit would work.
Asterios wrote: lets see missile crashes into ship, exposing it to ships innards
More like "missile crashes into ship, hits armor plating designed to stop 40k-level weapons, and detonates outside the hull". That is, if the warhead isn't instantly destroyed on impact. A "hit" with nukes in space combat really means a proximity detonation close enough to damage the target. ICBM warheads are not typically armor-piercing bullets.
specially considering the puncture of the ship (no explosion needed) would be enough to cause a loss of atmosphere explosion
You do understand that 40k ships have sealable internal compartments, right? Even a hull breach is not going to result in a total loss of atmosphere because the area around the breach can be sealed off.
and you do know nuclear missiles have tungsten cores right?
Do you understand the difference between having tungsten parts and carrying additional reaction mass? There's nothing special about tungsten, it's just good for reaction mass in this case because Orion is limited more by size than mass. Tungsten is (relatively) cheap and lets you carry a lot of reaction mass in a small volume. ICBM warheads, on the other hand, are designed to have the absolute minimum possible mass to maximize performance of the rocket. There is no additional reaction mass carried because it makes no sense in the context of
and really those missiles going after jets and such, are just one shots and will miss?
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to ask here.
hmm me thinks a simple heat guided system going after the biggest heat object in orbit would work.
ICBMs do not have infrared guidance. Nor do they have sufficient extra fuel to make major course changes. Of course it is theoretically possible to make a guided weapon for space combat (such as existing anti-missile missiles), but no such system for ICBMs exists right now. And a war against a 40k invasion is going to be over long before anyone can attempt to design a new guided ICBM to shoot at 40k ships.
Asterios wrote: lets see missile crashes into ship, exposing it to ships innards
More like "missile crashes into ship, hits armor plating designed to stop 40k-level weapons, and detonates outside the hull". That is, if the warhead isn't instantly destroyed on impact. A "hit" with nukes in space combat really means a proximity detonation close enough to damage the target. ICBM warheads are not typically armor-piercing bullets.
specially considering the puncture of the ship (no explosion needed) would be enough to cause a loss of atmosphere explosion
You do understand that 40k ships have sealable internal compartments, right? Even a hull breach is not going to result in a total loss of atmosphere because the area around the breach can be sealed off.
and you do know nuclear missiles have tungsten cores right?
Do you understand the difference between having tungsten parts and carrying additional reaction mass? There's nothing special about tungsten, it's just good for reaction mass in this case because Orion is limited more by size than mass. Tungsten is (relatively) cheap and lets you carry a lot of reaction mass in a small volume. ICBM warheads, on the other hand, are designed to have the absolute minimum possible mass to maximize performance of the rocket. There is no additional reaction mass carried because it makes no sense in the context of
and really those missiles going after jets and such, are just one shots and will miss?
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to ask here.
hmm me thinks a simple heat guided system going after the biggest heat object in orbit would work.
ICBMs do not have infrared guidance. Nor do they have sufficient extra fuel to make major course changes. Of course it is theoretically possible to make a guided weapon for space combat (such as existing anti-missile missiles), but no such system for ICBMs exists right now. And a war against a 40k invasion is going to be over long before anyone can attempt to design a new guided ICBM to shoot at 40k ships.
and you keep going with ICBMs I already said we don't need ICBM's, satellite hunter killers will work just as well. which we already have in our arsenal and are launched from low orbit bombers.
Asterios wrote: and you keep goiung with ICBMs I already said we don't need ICBM's satellite hunter killers will work just as well. which we already have in our arsenal and are launched from low orbit bombers.
The anti-satellite missile you're thinking of has a purely kinetic warhead and would be irrelevant against 40k ships. And they aren't launched from low-orbit bombers, as no real-world aircraft can get anywhere near orbit. If you want even a desperate prayer of damaging a 40k ship in orbit you need ICBMs and nuclear warheads.
Asterios wrote: and you keep goiung with ICBMs I already said we don't need ICBM's satellite hunter killers will work just as well. which we already have in our arsenal and are launched from low orbit bombers.
The anti-satellite missile you're thinking of has a purely kinetic warhead and would be irrelevant against 40k ships. And they aren't launched from low-orbit bombers, as no real-world aircraft can get anywhere near orbit. If you want even a desperate prayer of damaging a 40k ship in orbit you need ICBMs and nuclear warheads.
well upper atmosphere low orbit and yeah you need to do so much more research, like the X-37B, the Silverbird project, or the BlackStar project hell going old school the SR-71 reached a height of almost 26 kilometers, and with the Ionosphere starting around 40 Kilometers, furthermore we do have systems designed to launch satellite hunter killers which are guided to hit their target since space is a junk pile, seriously you would not believe the amount of space junk we have up there, so said missiles have to be guided to avoid the other space junk flying around, which is also why space craft being launched also has to be launched during certain windows to avoid a lot of that junk. but as to the missile going after a space craft a simple rocket system with a magnetic coupler system and a directional cone to direct the energy of the blast towards the object. using maybe Tungsten core rods for shrapnel effect.
now dealing with explosions as stated the ship is in the Ionosphere, which is a medium, there is force and density there, which is why satellites and such (like the ISS) constantly have to adjust their altitude or burn up, for some reason I keep thinking your thinking of hollywood fireballs in space, if such a thing happened in space it would be very quick and over with very quickly but the explosive shockwave would still exist and keep going till it encountered a force to resist it, its like certain gamma-ray bursts from exploding stars which continue forever:
"Admiral, there is an incoming continuously accelerating projectile."
"Thank you Ensign. It must be an emissary from the planet. Prepare for it to make contact."
Y'all are dumb. A single missile would be laughed out of space. A couple thousand though, may be a little harder for the point defenses to engage, and may require moving the ship.
Upper atmosphere and low orbit have about as much in common as walking out to your mailbox and getting on a 5000 mile airline flight.
like the X-37B, the Silverbird project, or the BlackStar project hell going old school the SR-71 reached a height of almost 26 kilometers, and with the Ionosphere starting around 40 Kilometers
The X-37B is an unarmed test vehicle and about as relevant as "we'll pull the space shuttles out of storage". Silverbird never got past the theoretical stage and is 70+ years old. BlackStar is a rumored project that hasn't even been proven to exist. The SR-71 was an unarmed spy plane that never got anywhere near orbit. None of these things would provide any help against a 40k starship.
furthermore we do have systems designed to launch satellite hunter killers which are guided to hit their target since space is a junk pile
Yes, we do have anti-satellite missiles. They are even guided, in the sense that they can fine-tune their path to hit a target (but don't carry nearly enough delta-V to keep up with a 40k ship accelerating at multiple g's). However, they use a purely kinetic warhead and wouldn't even scratch the paint on a 40k ship.
seriously you would not believe the amount of space junk we have up there, so said missiles have to be guided to avoid the other space junk flying around
Uh, no, this is not true. At all.
but as to the missile going after a space craft a simple rocket system with a magnetic coupler system and a directional cone to direct the energy of the blast towards the object.
You are using words, but none of them make any sense. Nothing about this problem is simple, and there is no hope of anyone building an anti-starship weapon before the war is over.
using maybe Tungsten core rods for shrapnel effect.
IOW, "we can't even scratch the paint with a direct hit, let's throw some shrapnel at the target so we do even less damage".
the explosive shockwave would still exist and keep going till it encountered a force to resist it, its like certain gamma-ray bursts from exploding stars which continue forever:
...
You really have no idea what you're talking about. Gamma-ray bursts and explosion pressure waves have absolutely nothing to do with each other. What you're saying is the equivalent of "my AR-15 could penetrate a Land Raider's armor, just like this pizza I had for dinner was really tasty".
Upper atmosphere and low orbit have about as much in common as walking out to your mailbox and getting on a 5000 mile airline flight.
like the X-37B, the Silverbird project, or the BlackStar project hell going old school the SR-71 reached a height of almost 26 kilometers, and with the Ionosphere starting around 40 Kilometers
The X-37B is an unarmed test vehicle and about as relevant as "we'll pull the space shuttles out of storage". Silverbird never got past the theoretical stage and is 70+ years old. BlackStar is a rumored project that hasn't even been proven to exist. The SR-71 was an unarmed spy plane that never got anywhere near orbit. None of these things would provide any help against a 40k starship.
furthermore we do have systems designed to launch satellite hunter killers which are guided to hit their target since space is a junk pile
Yes, we do have anti-satellite missiles. They are even guided, in the sense that they can fine-tune their path to hit a target (but don't carry nearly enough delta-V to keep up with a 40k ship accelerating at multiple g's). However, they use a purely kinetic warhead and wouldn't even scratch the paint on a 40k ship.
seriously you would not believe the amount of space junk we have up there, so said missiles have to be guided to avoid the other space junk flying around
Uh, no, this is not true. At all.
but as to the missile going after a space craft a simple rocket system with a magnetic coupler system and a directional cone to direct the energy of the blast towards the object.
You are using words, but none of them make any sense. Nothing about this problem is simple, and there is no hope of anyone building an anti-starship weapon before the war is over.
using maybe Tungsten core rods for shrapnel effect.
IOW, "we can't even scratch the paint with a direct hit, let's throw some shrapnel at the target so we do even less damage".
the explosive shockwave would still exist and keep going till it encountered a force to resist it, its like certain gamma-ray bursts from exploding stars which continue forever:
...
You really have no idea what you're talking about. Gamma-ray bursts and explosion pressure waves have absolutely nothing to do with each other. What you're saying is the equivalent of "my AR-15 could penetrate a Land Raider's armor, just like this pizza I had for dinner was really tasty".
you do know gamma ray bursts are explosive pressure waves from an exploding star? did you read the extra credit from a NASA member? or about gamma-ray bursts? as to Blackstar well you go ahead and think what you want, better that way, as to an AR-15 penetrating a Land raider's hull nothing in the fluff says it can't. also you do know what a magnetic coupler is? it is something we do have, and you do know what it does? or do you know anything about the Aries rocket system ? and thats an old system no longer used.
as it goes why don't we agree to disagree I believe we have the technology to remove an enemy spaceship in ionospheric orbit since it will be unable to use any defensive shields without destroying itself, nor would it be able to sustain the force necessary to move it out of range or from being targeted due to the extent of force that would be required for a ship of its size in ionospheric orbit and you do not think we can.
Asterios wrote: you do know gamma ray bursts are explosive pressure waves from an exploding star?
...
Gamma rays are electromagnetic radiation. They have nothing to do with explosive pressure waves. Seriously, you keep making basic factual errors and stubbornly insisting that you are right.
as to Blackstar well you go ahead and think what you want
I will. Tinfoil hat theories about secret military projects with no evidence to support them are completely irrelevant here.
also you do know what a magnetic coupler is? it is something we do have, and you do know what it does?
It's a device to couple rotating shafts without a physical connection. I fail to see what it has to do with this topic.
or do you know anything about the Aries rocket system ? and thats an old system no longer used.
It is a test target for anti-balllistic-missile systems. It isn't relevant here.
as it goes why don't we agree to disagree
Because you're wrong. You're making blatant factual errors and posting weird theories that make no sense at all.
I believe we have the technology to remove an enemy spaceship in ionospheric orbit since it will be unable to use any defensive shields without destroying itself
{citation needed}
40k void shields work just fine in an atmosphere, and 40k ships have vast amounts of armor plating to stop 40k-scale weapons even once the shields are down.
nor would it be able to sustain the force necessary to move it out of range or from being targeted due to the extent of force that would be required for a ship of its size in ionospheric orbit and you do not think we can.
A Lunar-class cruiser is capable of 2.5g sustained acceleration. That's a level of engine power vastly beyond anything that exists in the real world.
Asterios wrote: you do know gamma ray bursts are explosive pressure waves from an exploding star?
...
Gamma rays are electromagnetic radiation. They have nothing to do with explosive pressure waves. Seriously, you keep making basic factual errors and stubbornly insisting that you are right.
as to Blackstar well you go ahead and think what you want
I will. Tinfoil hat theories about secret military projects with no evidence to support them are completely irrelevant here.
also you do know what a magnetic coupler is? it is something we do have, and you do know what it does?
It's a device to couple rotating shafts without a physical connection. I fail to see what it has to do with this topic.
or do you know anything about the Aries rocket system ? and thats an old system no longer used.
It is a test target for anti-balllistic-missile systems. It isn't relevant here.
as it goes why don't we agree to disagree
Because you're wrong. You're making blatant factual errors and posting weird theories that make no sense at all.
I believe we have the technology to remove an enemy spaceship in ionospheric orbit since it will be unable to use any defensive shields without destroying itself
{citation needed}
40k void shields work just fine in an atmosphere, and 40k ships have vast amounts of armor plating to stop 40k-scale weapons even once the shields are down.
nor would it be able to sustain the force necessary to move it out of range or from being targeted due to the extent of force that would be required for a ship of its size in ionospheric orbit and you do not think we can.
A Lunar-class cruiser is capable of 2.5g sustained acceleration. That's a level of engine power vastly beyond anything that exists in the real world.
you do know what G-Force is? or that you can get 2.5G's from certain carnival rides like the Gravitron? or that many world war I air craft could do about 10G's in a dive? seriously 2.5 G's is rather slow heck our Space shuttle does better then that and a sprint missile can do up to 100G's.
and yes void shields could work in the atmosphere, but sadly not the Ionosphere due to the Electrical charge.
Asterios wrote: you do know gamma ray bursts are explosive pressure waves from an exploding star?
...
Gamma rays are electromagnetic radiation. They have nothing to do with explosive pressure waves. Seriously, you keep making basic factual errors and stubbornly insisting that you are right.
as to Blackstar well you go ahead and think what you want
I will. Tinfoil hat theories about secret military projects with no evidence to support them are completely irrelevant here.
also you do know what a magnetic coupler is? it is something we do have, and you do know what it does?
It's a device to couple rotating shafts without a physical connection. I fail to see what it has to do with this topic.
or do you know anything about the Aries rocket system ? and thats an old system no longer used.
It is a test target for anti-balllistic-missile systems. It isn't relevant here.
as it goes why don't we agree to disagree
Because you're wrong. You're making blatant factual errors and posting weird theories that make no sense at all.
I believe we have the technology to remove an enemy spaceship in ionospheric orbit since it will be unable to use any defensive shields without destroying itself
{citation needed}
40k void shields work just fine in an atmosphere, and 40k ships have vast amounts of armor plating to stop 40k-scale weapons even once the shields are down.
nor would it be able to sustain the force necessary to move it out of range or from being targeted due to the extent of force that would be required for a ship of its size in ionospheric orbit and you do not think we can.
A Lunar-class cruiser is capable of 2.5g sustained acceleration. That's a level of engine power vastly beyond anything that exists in the real world.
you do know what G-Force is? or that you can get 2.5G's from certain carnival rides like the Gravitron? or that many world war I air craft could do about 10G's in a dive? seriously 2.5 G's is rather slow heck our Space shuttle does better then that and a sprint missile can do up to 100G's.
and yes void shields could work in the atmosphere, but sadly not the Ionosphere due to the Electrical charge.
The ionosphere is part of the atmosphere. And there is literally zero reason to believe that it would have any effect on void shields because that's not how void shields work. Void shields intercept incoming projectiles and teleport them into the warp. Why would ions disable them?
Asterios wrote: you do know what G-Force is? or that you can get 2.5G's from certain carnival rides like the Gravitron? or that many world war I craft could do about 10G's in a dive?
Yes, of course I know what it is, it's just a scale for measuring acceleration. And there is a huge difference between pulling out of a dive or spinning a carnival ride and spacecraft engine performance. In the context of spacecraft engine performance 2.5g sustained acceleration for a 5km brick is orders of magnitude better than anything we have in the real world.
seriously 2.5 G's is rather slow heck our Space shuttle does better then that and a sprint missile can do up to 100G's.
The shuttle only does it for a short time and at the cost of a huge fuel to payload ratio. Sprint had insane acceleration, but only for a few seconds before it ran out of fuel. That Lunar-class cruiser has 2.5g sustained acceleration. It isn't just a momentary engine burn, it can keep doing 2.5gs all the way across the solar system.
and yes void shields could work in the atmosphere, but sadly not the Ionosphere.
{citation needed}
Please provide a 40k source, not your own personal theories about how it should work.
Asterios wrote: you do know gamma ray bursts are explosive pressure waves from an exploding star?
...
Gamma rays are electromagnetic radiation. They have nothing to do with explosive pressure waves. Seriously, you keep making basic factual errors and stubbornly insisting that you are right.
as to Blackstar well you go ahead and think what you want
I will. Tinfoil hat theories about secret military projects with no evidence to support them are completely irrelevant here.
also you do know what a magnetic coupler is? it is something we do have, and you do know what it does?
It's a device to couple rotating shafts without a physical connection. I fail to see what it has to do with this topic.
or do you know anything about the Aries rocket system ? and thats an old system no longer used.
It is a test target for anti-balllistic-missile systems. It isn't relevant here.
as it goes why don't we agree to disagree
Because you're wrong. You're making blatant factual errors and posting weird theories that make no sense at all.
I believe we have the technology to remove an enemy spaceship in ionospheric orbit since it will be unable to use any defensive shields without destroying itself
{citation needed}
40k void shields work just fine in an atmosphere, and 40k ships have vast amounts of armor plating to stop 40k-scale weapons even once the shields are down.
nor would it be able to sustain the force necessary to move it out of range or from being targeted due to the extent of force that would be required for a ship of its size in ionospheric orbit and you do not think we can.
A Lunar-class cruiser is capable of 2.5g sustained acceleration. That's a level of engine power vastly beyond anything that exists in the real world.
you do know what G-Force is? or that you can get 2.5G's from certain carnival rides like the Gravitron? or that many world war I air craft could do about 10G's in a dive? seriously 2.5 G's is rather slow heck our Space shuttle does better then that and a sprint missile can do up to 100G's.
and yes void shields could work in the atmosphere, but sadly not the Ionosphere due to the Electrical charge.
The ionosphere is part of the atmosphere. And there is literally zero reason to believe that it would have any effect on void shields because that's not how void shields work. Void shields intercept incoming projectiles and teleport them into the warp. Why would ions disable them?
not sure you udnerstand Void shields or how Electric chargs can disrupt them, like what exists in the Ionosphere.
No, Asterios, I asked you to prove that void shields can be disrupted by free ions. The same free ions that exist across the galaxy. That the Imperial Navy has dealt with for 10,000 years without any known issue.
Asterios wrote: you do know what G-Force is? or that you can get 2.5G's from certain carnival rides like the Gravitron? or that many world war I craft could do about 10G's in a dive?
Yes, of course I know what it is, it's just a scale for measuring acceleration. And there is a huge difference between pulling out of a dive or spinning a carnival ride and spacecraft engine performance. In the context of spacecraft engine performance 2.5g sustained acceleration for a 5km brick is orders of magnitude better than anything we have in the real world.
seriously 2.5 G's is rather slow heck our Space shuttle does better then that and a sprint missile can do up to 100G's.
The shuttle only does it for a short time and at the cost of a huge fuel to payload ratio. Sprint had insane acceleration, but only for a few seconds before it ran out of fuel. That Lunar-class cruiser has 2.5g sustained acceleration. It isn't just a momentary engine burn, it can keep doing 2.5gs all the way across the solar system.
and yes void shields could work in the atmosphere, but sadly not the Ionosphere.
{citation needed}
Please provide a 40k source, not your own personal theories about how it should work.
yeah but how long you think it will take for say a sprint missile to catch up to a slow snail moving at "2.5G's" ?
closest think you can find to 40K info on the net but it states that the Void Shield is a special form of gravitic or electrically-charged energy field employed by the Imperium of Man's various military forces to protect super-heavy vehicles like starships and Titans from enemy attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheCustomLime wrote: No, Asterios, I asked you to prove that void shields can be disrupted by free ions. The same free ions that exist across the galaxy. That the Imperial Navy has dealt with for 10,000 years without any known issue.
yes the Ionosphere contains Ions, but also contains Electrons too which cause it to have a high electrical discharge field which is why a nuclear missile going off in the Ionosphere which would cause an ECM burst to fry circuits in the area around it.
Did you read the rest of the article? Because if you did it explicitly says that void shields protect against "radiation, interstellar dust and particle showers...".
Asterios wrote: yeah but how long you think it will take for say a sprint missile to catch up to a slow snail moving at "2.5G's" ?
Quite a while, given that Sprint's maximum altitude was ~20 miles, while the ionosphere (the place you insist on putting the target ship) starts at ~50 miles. That's why sustained acceleration matters. If you can deliver a Sprint missile equipped with an appropriate homing system to within range of a 40k ship you probably have enough acceleration to hit it. But no such method to bring a Sprint missile exists. In fact, Sprint doesn't even exist anymore. None of this speculation about Sprint has anything to do with the scenario of modern Earth vs. 40k.
closest think you can find to 40K info on the net but it states that the Void Shield is a special form of gravitic or electrically-charged energy field employed by the Imperium of Man's various military forces to protect super-heavy vehicles like starships and Titans from enemy attacks.
Which says nothing about it being disrupted by the ionosphere.
yes the Ionosphere contains Ions, but also contains Electrons too which cause it to have a high electrical discharge field which is why a nuclear missile going off in the Ionosphere which would cause an ECM burst to fry circuits in the area around it.
TheCustomLime wrote: Did you read the rest of the article? Because if you did it explicitly says that void shields protect against "radiation, interstellar dust and particle showers...".
which are not Electrical charges, go read up on what HAARP does to the Ionosphere which produces an electrical field in the Ionosphere.
@ peregrine then how about the shuttle? lasts much longer then a sprint missile and moves much faster then the SM ship. or better yet go with any number of current missiles which go farther then a sprint missile and faster then 2.5 G's. face it you know your wrong, you are fighting with outdated technology which even our own outdated technology is faster then.
Asterios wrote: which are not Electrical charges, go read up on what HAARP does to the Ionosphere which produces an electrical field in the Ionosphere.
Can you provide a canon source for this disrupting void shields?
Also, HAARP is a scientific experiment with little or no capability as a weapon. Tinfoil hat theories about HAARP are not reality.
@ peregrine then how about the shuttle? lasts much longer then a sprint missile and moves much faster then the SM ship.
The shuttle also doesn't exist anymore, didn't carry any weapons when it did exist, had limited maneuverability under power, and didn't have sustained performance. Its entire delta-V capability was used up getting into orbit at all, while the 40k ship is capable of doing 2.5gs indefinitely. It can do whatever it wants in orbit before you shoot at it and still have its full engine power available to dodge an incoming threat.
or better yet go with any number of current missiles which go farther then a sprint missile and faster then 2.5 G's.
No such thing exists. No real-world missile has the delta-V to engage targets in orbit, a nuclear warhead to have even a prayer of damaging a 40k ship, and a homing system capable of following an evading target.
face it you know your wrong, you are fighting with outdated technology which even our own outdated technology is faster then.
No, you just don't have any idea what you're talking about. You're badly wrong, time after time, on the "I didn't even read the wikipedia article" level.
Asterios wrote: which are not Electrical charges, go read up on what HAARP does to the Ionosphere which produces an electrical field in the Ionosphere.
Can you provide a canon source for this disrupting void shields?
Also, HAARP is a scientific experiment with little or no capability as a weapon. Tinfoil hat theories about HAARP are not reality.
is there any GW source discussing atmospheres like the ionosphere ? doubt it since they don't think of those things, also whos talking weapons? I'm talking what HAARP even says they do.
also i'm out of here, you go with your SM fantasy i'll go with reality.
Lets also be a little realistic with regards to 40k spaceships, these are, at best, Napoleonic "Age of Sail" vessels given a scifi skin and made Xbox Heuge. They have impressed slave crews manually turning gun turrets and loading 200m long torpedoes by hand, none of which would be practical, effective, or functional on a real vessel. That's not even getting into how absurdly impractical the designs are, with weapons arrayed in very 2-dimensional arcs and zero ability to generate thrust from any direction from the rear (good luck stopping an IN Cruiser without turning 180* and burning backwards). They simply would not function outside of an author's say-so.
Asterios wrote: is there any GW source discussing atmospheres like the ionosphere ?
It is indisputably canon that void shields work in an atmosphere (since void shields are commonly used on ground units). If you want to claim that there's something special about the ionosphere that shuts them down then the burden of proof is on you. Until you can come up with some canon evidence to support your theory there is no reason to believe that void shields will magically stop working at a specific altitude band.
I'm talking what HAARP even says they do.
Then you're talking about something that isn't relevant to this discussion.
i'll go with reality.
Like your gamma rays that are "just like explosion pressure waves"?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaktathi wrote: They simply would not function outside of an author's say-so.
Much like virtually everything in science fiction. As ridiculous as it is sometimes to think about what should happen in a realistic setting in this kind of "who wins" scenario you have to assume that if the author says X works then X does in fact work.
Vaktathi wrote: They simply would not function outside of an author's say-so.
Much like virtually everything in science fiction. As ridiculous as it is sometimes to think about what should happen in a realistic setting in this kind of "who wins" scenario you have to assume that if the author says X works then X does in fact work.
Within said universe, I agree mostly. When compared to the real world however, reality has to take precedence or it automatically always loses due to "because I said so".
now if it was the 30k imperium that invaded then we would be rightly screwed even still I believe the 40k imperium invaded they would still
First they would probably send a force to offer demands and depending on how much they value earth would depend on who was actually sent, which leads to the next dilemma, earth isn't actually united under one banner sure there is the UN but that is just a farce which push comes shove can't achieve much since every country is out for its own benefit and doesn't like taking orders (just look at the Syria situation) If a massive space power showed up and offered demands there would be a a number of countries unsure of what to do, of course there would be countries like America which would refuse (probably shouting freedom whilst shoting up into the air) . Add into the effect if they used force, say they wiped Japan etc off the map the bigger powers would be still be firm in their resolve but smaller countries who lack the resources to combat the force will let doubt will creep in as they struggle to comprehend how to protect themselves. I'm all wars there are traitors and of the imperium showed up offering surrender or destruction there will boundd to be ones wanting to surrender or turn to save their lives
Another fun note to remember is that all of our planets places of state, certain military bases and large densely populated areas are known to the public and isn't so hard to access as well it would be child's play for any infiltrators to find exactly where best to strike hell you can even google it. A few capital cities destroyed with millions dead would have even more crippling effect on morale as terror as well as fear spreads through the population. Add into the mix some of the imperiums weapons which would rightly shock most people like Titans, Knights or even space marines and true despair would spread. The military manpower of the imperium is almost limitless look at the imperial guard they are a sledge hammer to crack a nut just look at the fluff the imperium would gladly throw away millions of lives to achieve their goals. The population would be viewed as having no value at all (the imperium has thousands of planets a few billion lives is of no concern they have killed many times that) and if it submits it will be cleansed of all taint until it is the ideal part of the imperium look at the fluff if the imperium wants something they will gladly expend millions of tier own to kill billions. If they can claim what they want at the cost of the populations lives they would gladly nuke all life on earth and plunder what they want
And of course that's not taking into account that it's very likely the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't just purge the whole planet with virus bombs for our Herectic beliefs with multiple religions as well a atheists who probably would be hated just as much
Vash108 wrote: They could probably throw a virus bomb down to start to weaken the planet then just roll over what's left. Then Terraform.
If they want to convert the planet, they would probably send Guardsmen, A few companies of Marines and a few Assasin's to take out high level targets.
and what virus would they use? and would they have any clue if it would effect us? and would it?
Probably the Life-Eater Virus?
The Life-Eater Virus, as used on Isstvan III and Stalinvast, is terrifyingly voracious, capable of spreading across the entire surface of a planet in a matter of minutes. The virus can penetrate power armour and rebreathers. The virus quickly rots and breaks down anything of biological origin, reducing it to sludge. Jungles and forests quickly rot into lakes of sludge.
The rapid breakdown of organic matter releases tremendous amounts of flammable gas. The gas eventually ignites, either on its own or with the intentional insertion of an incendiary device, into an apocalyptic, planet-wide firestorm, searing the planet's entire surface to bare rock, as well as burning the atmosphere of all oxygen.
Asterios wrote: is there any GW source discussing atmospheres like the ionosphere ?
It is indisputably canon that void shields work in an atmosphere (since void shields are commonly used on ground units). If you want to claim that there's something special about the ionosphere that shuts them down then the burden of proof is on you. Until you can come up with some canon evidence to support your theory there is no reason to believe that void shields will magically stop working at a specific altitude band.
and I repeat where is your canon that void shields work in the Ionosphere? not talking lower atmosphere on the ground, but that electrically charged atmosphere known as the Ionosphere.
Then you're talking about something that isn't relevant to this discussion.
uh huh, yeah an experiment that tests what happens when an electrical field is used in the Ionosphere has nothing to do with an electrical field (AKA: Void Shield)in the Ionosphere, what because truth proves you are a liar it has nothing to do with the discussion?
Like your gamma rays that are "just like explosion pressure waves"?
and yet a gamma-ray burst explosion is still an energetic explosion a very energetic which causes compression waves and such, and yet you claim it isn't, you know you seem to think you know it all and yet show nothing to back up your comments, where is your evidence? you claim to have it, or seem to think you have it, so where is it?
Asterios wrote: and I repeat where is your canon that void shields work in the Ionosphere? not talking lower atmosphere on the ground, but that electrically charged atmosphere known as the Ionosphere.
BFG rules, Fighting in Low Orbit. Planetary atmosphere at any level has no effect on spacecraft shields.
Asterios wrote: and I repeat where is your canon that void shields work in the Ionosphere? not talking lower atmosphere on the ground, but that electrically charged atmosphere known as the Ionosphere.
BFG rules, Fighting in Low Orbit. Planetary atmosphere at any level has no effect on spacecraft shields.
and these rules are where on the net? and the real world equivalent? since fantasy does not trump reality.
also lets inject a little more reality where Peregrine loudly vaunts how a BFG ship can do 2.5G's continuously and yet 2.5G's is not enough exertion to escape most planets Gravity wells (like Earths) which also is in the Ionosphere, (you know that stuff that keeps the Ions and Electrons there?) so further expounding on reality where said ships would be going, they would not survive, end of discussion.
Asterios wrote: and I repeat where is your canon that void shields work in the Ionosphere? not talking lower atmosphere on the ground, but that electrically charged atmosphere known as the Ionosphere.
BFG rules, Fighting in Low Orbit. Planetary atmosphere at any level has no effect on spacecraft shields.
and these rules are where on the net? and the real world equivalent? since fantasy does not trump reality.
also lets inject a little more reality where Peregrine loudly vaunts how a BFG ship can do 2.5G's continuously and yet 2.5G's is not enough exertion to escape most planets Gravity wells (like Earths) which also is in the Ionosphere, (you know that stuff that keeps the Ions and Electrons there?) so further expounding on reality where said ships would be going, they would not survive, end of discussion.
Okay, so not only have you not provided any evidence that the ionosphere would affect void shields but now with lore evidence that it doesn't you deny it because you don't like it? Asterios, you can't just make stuff up with zero evidence and then claim that some facts are arbitrarily better than others when they suit you better.
Also, you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to escape velocity.
also lets inject a little more reality where Peregrine loudly vaunts how a BFG ship can do 2.5G's continuously and yet 2.5G's is not enough exertion to escape most planets Gravity wells (like Earths) which also is in the Ionosphere, (you know that stuff that keeps the Ions and Electrons there?) so further expounding on reality where said ships would be going, they would not survive, end of discussion.
To be fair, G is not a measure of speed, its a measure of acceleration. its not entirely unlikely that the 40k ships would be coming in with sufficient velocity to get into orbit, and travel fast enough forward to fall and never hit the planet/ie orbit.
An explosion in atmosphere primarily has 3 factors that are considered for its destructive power:
1. the pressure wave of rapidly expanding gases- this is the most deadly in conventional weapons, and even in nuclear in the short term as all things breaking falling happen mostly due to pressure. Pressure requires a medium to act. You have to push ON something, with nothing to push on, then only the vaporization of the thing exploding itself can generate its own medium, and that will dissipate to essentially nothing in a vacuum almost immediately
2. Heat, the excitation of molecules from low energy to high energy/vibration and movement. Heat can light things on fire, scorch singe, heat can damage, but it won't normally by itself level a building. heat can add to the first principal of pressure. Due to entropy energy goes from high energy to low, and can be communicated in several forms, conduction (touch) convection (ambient heating typically of air, ie a medium) and radiation (Ir light, other light bands like gamma and xray). Only radiation transmits without a medium as it travels via various states of photons, which are so tiny in mass, it takes a star to make enough to generate solar wind.
3. Radiation, usually just seen in a flash of light, much higher in the nuclear option. The problem is, compared to deep space travel and the amount of radiation from quasars and nova/supernova, or blue giants etc, a nuclear missile just doesn't really have that much to compare. Now the photons are not mass-less, but again, in the amount of matter we are turning into energy and photons, its not enough to push kilometers long gothic ships away.
personally, the salamanders would be the worst, they'd charm us by being all noble, and bring us under the emperors arms as if he was a loving father.
Asterios wrote: and I repeat where is your canon that void shields work in the Ionosphere? not talking lower atmosphere on the ground, but that electrically charged atmosphere known as the Ionosphere.
BFG rules, Fighting in Low Orbit. Planetary atmosphere at any level has no effect on spacecraft shields.
and these rules are where on the net? and the real world equivalent? since fantasy does not trump reality.
also lets inject a little more reality where Peregrine loudly vaunts how a BFG ship can do 2.5G's continuously and yet 2.5G's is not enough exertion to escape most planets Gravity wells (like Earths) which also is in the Ionosphere, (you know that stuff that keeps the Ions and Electrons there?) so further expounding on reality where said ships would be going, they would not survive, end of discussion.
Okay, so not only have you not provided any evidence that the ionosphere would affect void shields but now with lore evidence that it doesn't you deny it because you don't like it? Asterios, you can't just make stuff up with zero evidence and then claim that some facts are arbitrarily better than others when they suit you better.
Also, you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to escape velocity.
really then prove me wrong in a real world equivalent, told you go check up on HAARP's Ionosphere testings and if BFG's using void shields in their planets atmospheres they must have a whole lot of dead worlds then. also you need to go back and learn about escape velocity.
also lets inject a little more reality where Peregrine loudly vaunts how a BFG ship can do 2.5G's continuously and yet 2.5G's is not enough exertion to escape most planets Gravity wells (like Earths) which also is in the Ionosphere, (you know that stuff that keeps the Ions and Electrons there?) so further expounding on reality where said ships would be going, they would not survive, end of discussion.
To be fair, G is not a measure of speed, its a measure of acceleration. its not entirely unlikely that the 40k ships would be coming in with sufficient velocity to get into orbit, and travel fast enough forward to fall and never hit the planet/ie orbit.
thats why I can't understand why he used G's as a measure of speed? as for acceleration is not very strong.
thats why I can't understand why he used G's as a measure of speed? as for acceleration is not very strong.
Well doubling my apparent weight to 400 lbs is not something i am eager to leap to. And i think its the sustained portion that he's more impressed by. 2gs for 2 minutes, bearable, 2gs for 2 months, totally different question.
thats why I can't understand why he used G's as a measure of speed? as for acceleration is not very strong.
Well doubling my apparent weight to 400 lbs is not something i am eager to leap to. And i think its the sustained portion that he's more impressed by. 2gs for 2 minutes, bearable, 2gs for 2 months, totally different question.
thing of it is, in space G's are not felt really, they are only felt where pressure is felt, like gravity wells and such. like when we sent rockets to the moon, our Astronauts felt the G's escaping Earth's gravity well but nothing after that even though their speed did not reduce really. I mean the Apollo missions reached speeds close to 40,000 KM per hour. in fact when I read his comment I kept thinking of the Parsecs of the Millenium Falcon indicating speed I guess? considering G-Force is the amount of pressure felt, not how fast an object is going. and the larger the ship the more G-Force that would be felt like escaping from a planets gravity well.
G-force is not implicitly a pressure felt. 1G is accelerating a 9.82 m/s^2 at sea level. That is the acceleration at all times the force of gravity exerts on us, and the ground exerts it back, keeping us from falling into the planet (among other things). But equal and opposite reactions, if the spaceship is accelerating (not maintaining speed) at 9.82m/^2, it will feel like earth gravity does, parallel to the direction of acceleration.
If we threw a "magic" sky scraper into space and had it accelerate at G, like a spear, people would still be able to walk around and use the stairs/elevator and shouldn't notice anything weird from that perspective. because the skyscraper keeps pushing the people from beneath at 1G force to keep accelerating.
the thing that games tend not to get right is that there is no terminal velocity in space. A spacecraft that continuously accelerates at 1g is not a spacecraft. it is a HELL of a weapon.
anyone else check to see how quickly such a craft would take to achieve superluminal speeds? 12 years. Then it doesn't even notice when it hits its target, as it just flashes into exotic particles when the FTL starship arrives. . . then keeps going.
also i'm out of here, you go with your SM fantasy i'll go with reality.
For someone who is apparantely out of this thread, you sure still are posting quite a bit.
Isn't this an argument over fantasy situations anyway?
This is a forum. Forums discuss things, real or made up. When not discussing fantasy scenarios and what-if situations, we tend to discuss plastic model soldiers. Either way, many people will look at you sideways when you explain what is you're writing about on the internetz.
what it comes down to is you cannot get everyone to agree on everything all the time, you can show a penny to 10 people and they will find some disagreement about it.
Asterios wrote: and I repeat where is your canon that void shields work in the Ionosphere? not talking lower atmosphere on the ground, but that electrically charged atmosphere known as the Ionosphere.
The canon evidence is that void shields clearly work in an atmosphere (since they are used on various ground units) and there is no evidence that they stop working at some particular altitude.
uh huh, yeah an experiment that tests what happens when an electrical field is used in the Ionosphere has nothing to do with an electrical field (AKA: Void Shield)in the Ionosphere, what because truth proves you are a liar it has nothing to do with the discussion?
Void shields are not mere electrical fields, nor has HAARP done anything about testing how a powerful electrical field (on the level of strength required to stop 40k-scale starship weapons) would interact with the ionosphere.
and yet a gamma-ray burst explosion is still an energetic explosion a very energetic which causes compression waves and such, and yet you claim it isn't, you know you seem to think you know it all and yet show nothing to back up your comments, where is your evidence? you claim to have it, or seem to think you have it, so where is it?
This is completely wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asterios wrote: 2.5G's is not enough exertion to escape most planets Gravity wells (like Earths)
Yes it is. Anything over 1g continuous acceleration is sufficient to escape the gravity well. This is just basic physics that you're getting wrong, again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asterios wrote: thing of it is, in space G's are not felt really
Yes they are. Again, this is basic physics. The only reason you don't feel significant acceleration in space is that real-world spacecraft have very very low acceleration after launch.
like when we sent rockets to the moon, our Astronauts felt the G's escaping Earth's gravity well but nothing after that even though their speed did not reduce really
That's because the engines were off once they made the final boost out of orbit. That has nothing to do with how you will feel acceleration under power.
and the larger the ship the more G-Force that would be felt like escaping from a planets gravity well.
This is not true at all. Once again, basic physics.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asterios wrote: thats why I can't understand why he used G's as a measure of speed?
I didn't use it as a measure of speed, you just don't understand what you're talking about. The 2.5g acceleration of the 40k ship is significant because it represents how fast the ship can accelerate from a predictable orbit into evasive maneuvers to dodge incoming missiles. Since the only real-world weapons with both the delta-V and payload to have even the most desperate prayer of engaging a 40k ship are ballistic missiles being able to dodge at 2.5gs is effectively immunity to any attack. The 40k ship can very quickly get away from the trajectory of any warhead that is predicted to hit.
as for acceleration is not very strong.
It is incredibly strong relative to real-world spacecraft, you just don't understand the subject very well.
Peregrine is correct in that Gees are not a measure of speed but rather acceleration. Otherwise is like thinking that Han Solo's Kessel run in parsecs was in time rather than distance.
Have you ever listened to fighter pilots? The G forces that they can withstand is the amount of force exerted on their bodies before they pass out. No pilot that I'm aware of passes out when they exceed 600 mph (speed) but they will almost all pass out at 12 G (force)
Have you ever ridden on the centrifugal carnival rides? Do you know the amount of force exerted on your body laterally? Maybe 2g
). Space Marines even have it inbuilt into their helmets.
). Likewise, 
what are we actually agreeing/disagreeing on here?
) and you make fun of your mother