So this is not meant to be a rant, though parts of it may sound that way. I'd just like to get a general feel for how people have encountered Ravenwing.

Our LGS just started a league and we are currently only at 500pts. I am playing Eldar. I am trying to play competitive, but not TFG.
My list so far is
1 Farseer on bike,
2x 3 Windriders with 1 Scatter & 2 Shuricannons each,
2 Hornets
and 2 Shadow Weavers.

My very first game was against a Ravenwing Strikeforce with 2x 3 Bikes with 1 powerfist each, 1 Chaplain on bike, 1 MM attack bike & a Dark Shroud.
I have yet to fit Ravenwing, but have heard nasty things. All game his entire army had a 2+ re-rollable Jink save.

We played 5 turns and all I managed to kill was 1 Space Marine....and that was on turn 5. Nothing like this has EVERY happened to me...with any army, much less my Eldar
He ended up winning because of the objectives, obviously, as there was no way I was gonna get close to those powerfists.
To be far, he only killed 1 of my bikes and the Shadow Weavers, but it was still one of the most unsatifying games I have ever played. I have played games that were crushing defeats for me that were still WAAAYYY more fun because I actually got to participate in the game rather than rolling dice that don't matter.

Don't get me wrong, the guy I played was cool and it is about time that Eldar got some decent counters, but I am seriously at a loss here.
Am I supposed to load up on Dark Reapers, which I am not a fan of, just to regain an "all-comers" list?
Even killing the Dark Shroud still leaves the bikes with a 3+ rerollable Jink (because skilled rider).

In general, do you think that list like Ravenwing & Genestealer cults will change the Meta since they are very good counters to shooting armies?
Will this finally encourage a shift towards CC armies?

Let's hear your thoughts

-

Firstly. you are taking pretty much the nastiest of eldar stuff at low cost without Wraith so you are half way to being that guy.

Secondly did you go for the spell discipline that has Psychic shriek and ignores cover (If not why not you were playing and army whose soul purpose for survival is cover.

No, not really, raven wing is just a very powerful list right now, he was running the not so sharp version of the list as well.

The extra cheesy version is with a lib rolling for invisibility.

But they wont change the meta.

And as an aside, GSC can counter the ravenwing bike army really hard on turn one. Summon the cultists all with hand flamers right next to them, rip bikes when the get mauled by 8 hand flamers. I played a 1000 point game, i brought my bikestar because i had nothing else at the time, my opponant was running a GSC, managed to make me surrender in turn .5 after he took down 2 bikes with flamers, 2 more in melee and my darkshroud with genestealers

Really, Ravenwing just melt in assault. They lose all their fancy defensive buffs and turn into slightly overcosted marines, who were already not known for being great in assaults.
Yeah, if you try and shoot at them without ignores cover, you're just going to have a bad time, but getting stuck in will really kill them fast.

Try spamming scatter lasers. Or fight them in CC to deny them any cover save.

Just because the Eldar are full of cheese doesn’t mean it’s the only cheese out there.

The 2+ rerollable jink save is nasty, no argument. But it’s a cover save, so there are a number of ways around it. CC being a big one.

I just wish they could balance things without going full-on R/P/S. That sort of jinking is a hard counter to any shooting that doesn’t ignore cover. I’d prefer to see things capped out at “resistant” and not “functionally immune"

I was half expecting it to be 1500 points or something. That would have been terrible...

Anyway, Ravenwing are disgusting with the Jink. The Darkshroud is usually the first priority.

I don't think you need to add Dark Reapers. I think you just need to add some reliable Ignore Cover, either through CC units or multiple psykers.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Really, Ravenwing just melt in assault. They lose all their fancy defensive buffs and turn into slightly overcosted marines, who were already not known for being great in assaults.
Yeah, if you try and shoot at them without ignores cover, you're just going to have a bad time, but getting stuck in will really kill them fast.

This, the only caviot is that you need to watch out if they have a banner barer, since they auto pass hit and run, at the end of your assault phase, they can bugger out, and get right back into your face on their turn and open up.

Best thing to do is charge the dark shroud ASAP and kill it.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Really, Ravenwing just melt in assault. They lose all their fancy defensive buffs and turn into slightly overcosted marines, who were already not known for being great in assaults.
Yeah, if you try and shoot at them without ignores cover, you're just going to have a bad time, but getting stuck in will really kill them fast.

That was something I thought of, but he had Fists in each unit and my Eldar wound him on 6 in CC.

BTW, my Hornets had 1 Pulse Laser & 1 Bright lance. I forgot to mention that. So by not having all Scatter lasers & Pulse lasers AND having Shadow Weavers, my list is considered fairly tame in my local meta. Juts FYI
However, I don't think going full TFG would have helped. I really didn't think about using Shriek (cuz it always disappoints me) or trying to roll Perfect Timing. I should have and will be my go-to strategy from now one.
It might be worth taking a Warlock since their Primaris is Conceal/Reveal. Reveal denies a unit from using Shroud or Stealth. Not really great against the bikes since they'd still have a 3+, but might be enough to get a decent round to drop the Dark Shroud. And as a bonus, the Warlock has a Fleshbane weapon if I need some CC

-

I'll be honest. I wouldn't even play a game with anything that involved 2+ re-rollable...anything. That's just silliness that doesn't belong on a table.

Skatach Wraithknights are popular for a reason...

I've dealt with it before. Not easily, but I'm sure if BA can do it, mighty Eldar can handle it.

 Elbows wrote:
I'll be honest. I wouldn't even play a game with anything that involved 2+ re-rollable...anything. That's just silliness that doesn't belong on a table.

It's not overly bad for Daemons because they cannot do it for their entire army and the units that can reliably get it cost over 300pts each and usually rely on 300+pts on OTHER characters to get that to work. And even then, it is not guaranteed to work. You still need to roll the right power, successfully cast said power, or successfully roll the 1 relic that effects the 1 unit to use it on.
And Tzeentch help you if you don't go first to get all that up.

Ravenwing don't have to roll jack and get their full bonus for the entire army. Even without the Dark Shroud, a 3+ rerollable Jink is darn near invincible.
And only 1 army in all of 40K has enough ignores cover to even be considered a counter.

I feel like the 1 balancing factor is that RW need to Jink, rendering their weapons ineffective (except for that first turn bs) and unlike Necrons, they don't seem to have really effective CC units.
So if you expect to go against RW (which in any tourney, you now should expect that) you need some good CC units. This can only be a good thing.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Skatach Wraithknights are popular for a reason...

I've never understood why until now. Too bad GCs & SHV aren't allowed in my local League until 1500pts

Martel732 wrote:
I've dealt with it before. Not easily, but I'm sure if BA can do it, mighty Eldar can handle it.

The difference is that BAs are kinda forced to take CC units, whereas the most effective Eldar lists only have a WK for CC.
But I get your point. I now have to adapt, as all 40K players should, and Eldar still have the best tools

-

Black knights are pretty damn effective...

And all assault ignores cover. I know it's a phase that most Eldar players forget about.

 Galef wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'll be honest. I wouldn't even play a game with anything that involved 2+ re-rollable...anything. That's just silliness that doesn't belong on a table.

It's not overly bad for Daemons because they cannot do it for their entire army and the units that can reliably get it cost over 300pts each and usually rely on 300+pts on OTHER characters to get that to work. And even then, it is not guaranteed to work. You still need to roll the right power, successfully cast said power, or successfully roll the 1 relic that effects the 1 unit to use it on.
And Tzeentch help you if you don't go first to get all that up.

Ravenwing don't have to roll jack and get their full bonus for the entire army. Even without the Dark Shroud, a 3+ rerollable Jink is darn near invincible.
And only 1 army in all of 40K has enough ignores cover to even be considered a counter.

I feel like the 1 balancing factor is that RW need to Jink, rendering their weapons ineffective (except for that first turn bs) and unlike Necrons, they don't seem to have really effective CC units.
So if you expect to go against RW (which in any tourney, you now should expect that) you need some good CC units. This can only be a good thing.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Skatach Wraithknights are popular for a reason...

I've never understood why until now. Too bad GCs & SHV aren't allowed in my local League until 1500pts

Martel732 wrote:
I've dealt with it before. Not easily, but I'm sure if BA can do it, mighty Eldar can handle it.

The difference is that BAs are kinda forced to take CC units, whereas the most effective Eldar lists only have a WK for CC.
But I get your point. I now have to adapt, as all 40K players should, and Eldar still have the best tools

-

Galef correct me if I wrong but were you not one of the people saying magnus who has a higher toughness then these bikes and has a 3+ with rerolling of 1 for an invaluable save was fine back when Tradito made his Magnus is OP thread?

Magnus is 650 points though and a Unique character, not to mention a LoW.

These guys, with a better re-rollable, are about 40 each and are in FA so can be spammed at such a cheap points level.

I do not know what is not to like about Reapers, I NEVER leave home without a 5 man-squad.

It's a flexible unit that can solve SO many problems. You just need to know how to best leverage their strengths and prepare for their weaknesses.

Now playing at low-point level you cannot use the Aspect Host to make them even more disgusting but giving them a re-roll to hit should be easy with a Farseer.

Another fun tactic is if you have a Warlock and you have Protect/Jinx. Jinx some Terminators to make them +3 and laugh as the reapers mow them down in a single turn.

DoW said it best: All who love life fear the Reaper.

 mew28 wrote:

Galef correct me if I wrong but were you not one of the people saying magnus who has a higher toughness then these bikes and has a 3+ with rerolling of 1 for an invaluable save was fine back when Tradito made his Magnus is OP thread?

Indeed, that was me, but see this:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Magnus is 650 points though and a Unique character, not to mention a LoW.

These guys, with a better re-rollable, are about 40 each and are in FA so can be spammed at such a cheap points level.

I am not saying the RW are like, the best army ever, but they are currently a hard counter to Eldar which cannot take enough ignores covers.
But again, this can only be a good thing for the meta, even if it does suck for me.

-

It's either all or nothing. You either have ignore cover or fast mellee and have a chance of killing them - outside of mageconclaves - or you don't and you have no chances of killing them. Than you make them jink and pray for lucky maelstorm and early game end.

Few suggestions;

#1 - If you have two choices, both bad, take the better of the two bad choices. That means if you need to get into close combat, you get into close combat.

#2 - Consider Warlocks on bikes. Their flamer psychic power will ignore their Jink saves, and their Witchblades will ignore their high toughness in close combat, while their Inv save will help protect against powerfists.

#3 - Have your Farseer take powers from lists with cover-ignoring effects, like Psychic Scream, or Mind War.

You have the tools already, you just need to use them differently. Don't go for the more defensive powers or powers that let you shoot more accurately, because it's pointless to try and just dice-force your way through their defences. Play smarter, not harder.

 Yarium wrote:
Few suggestions;

#1 - If you have two choices, both bad, take the better of the two bad choices. That means if you need to get into close combat, you get into close combat.

#2 - Consider Warlocks on bikes. Their flamer psychic power will ignore their Jink saves, and their Witchblades will ignore their high toughness in close combat, while their Inv save will help protect against powerfists.

#3 - Have your Farseer take powers from lists with cover-ignoring effects, like Psychic Scream, or Mind War.

You have the tools already, you just need to use them differently. Don't go for the more defensive powers or powers that let you shoot more accurately, because it's pointless to try and just dice-force your way through their defences. Play smarter, not harder.

So basically use my own advise, which is conveniently in your sig.

-

Atta boy!

How did he have a 2+ cover rerollable? Was it a mission with always night fighting? The only models that get a 2+ are black knights (4+, 3+ w/ skilled rider, 2+ w/ darkshroud), normal bikers don't have skilled rider, so can only get a 3+. Either he was playing black knights incorrectly, as they can only take power weapons, or he was playing bikers incorrectly as they only have a 3+. Unless there's something I missed, like always night fighting, or some strategy that I've never noticed for ravenwing.

Please keep us posted if you get a rematch with same lists, new strategies and tactics.

Rematches with same lists can be very interesting.

 kingbobbito wrote:
How did he have a 2+ cover rerollable? Was it a mission with always night fighting? The only models that get a 2+ are black knights (4+, 3+ w/ skilled rider, 2+ w/ darkshroud), normal bikers don't have skilled rider, so can only get a 3+. Either he was playing black knights incorrectly, as they can only take power weapons, or he was playing bikers incorrectly as they only have a 3+. Unless there's something I missed, like always night fighting, or some strategy that I've never noticed for ravenwing.

He said all RW bikes have Skilled rider. This may only be Black Knights though, someone with the codex will have to confirm.
Maybe the RW strike force gives out Skilled rider?

But, he did have a Dark Shroud which grants Stealth to nearby units. So Jink 4+, Skilled Rider 3+, Stealth 2+
And all RW have re-rollable cover saves when they Jink.

He did have an older version of the codex on hand, which we both noticed before the game started. He had the current rules on his phone (ugh )
We didn't look much up and he admitted to being rather new. Next time, we will check all the rules. I am sure we will get a rematch eventually

-

My formula is shoot grav/plasma/melta at a given RW squad and then assault. The jinking stops their fancy overwatch. Drop fragnoughts are really brutal against them too. And archangel sanguine wing doesn't give a FETH.

My understanding from a game a year and a bit ago was that Ravenwing get a rerollable Jink Save, and that during the first turn this Jink Save doesn't even reduce their ability to fire weapons on the next turn. I know that with the Dark Shroud you get 2+ rerollable jink with Ravenwing, and I think all Dark Angels bikers are considered Ravenwing. But yeah, I am also without a codex, and don't play against them regularly, so I couldn't tell you for sure.

Remember that non of the IC on bike gain the raven wing rerollable jinx save. Only their named special bloke on bike.

 Galef wrote:

Am I supposed to load up on Dark Reapers, which I am not a fan of, just to regain an "all-comers" list?
Even killing the Dark Shroud still leaves the bikes with a 3+ rerollable Jink (because skilled rider).

I don't think "load up" is necessary, but Dark Reapers would be a near auto-include for me. Plus they could Knock out that Dark Shroud, Pronto. I feel like the Dark Shroud gives more than just Shrouding, but I could be mistaken. I just recall it being a pretty important thing to take out, for whatever reason.

Like Martel says, be sure to force them all to be Jinking too. Most of the Ravenwing I've fought have been pretty shooty, so reducing their ranged output it really important.

But beyond that, my most effective games required me to roll up my sleeves and get in there with template weapons and assaults. My Assault Squads and Characters have shone against Ravenwing. With Eldar I guess that's a little tougher, considering their natural S of 3, but they certainly have options with Scorpions, Spears, Witchblades etc.

I have found the power Perfect Timing to be only sort of OK, as it requires your psyker to be part of the unit whose firing, and that can leave sub-par options. You can't Perfect Timing War Walkers, for example. Psychic Scream is great because it's a Primaris, and even if it's not that effective most of the time, it freaks people out a bit.

There are several ways to bring magnus to a 2++ re-roll 1. And since its not a cover save you cant ignore it easily.

Table wrote:
There are several ways to bring magnus to a 2++ re-roll 1. And since its not a cover save you cant ignore it easily.

Indeed, but he alone is 1/3 of his entire army. So worst case scenario, you ignore him. You CANNOT, however, ignore your entire opponent's army.

Only Black Knights have Skilled Rider.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Only Black Knights have Skilled Rider.

Good to know. That brings up a question: Does the Dark Shroud grant Stealth or Shroud? I know it has Shroud for itself and the old version gave an aura of Stealth to nearby units, but dId this change in the new dex?

In the league we are playing, the RW guys isn't using Black Knights....yet. So that would have impacted our game.

-

Stealth. Shrouded only applies to itself.

 Galef wrote:
So this is not meant to be a rant, though parts of it may sound that way. I'd just like to get a general feel for how people have encountered Ravenwing.

Our LGS just started a league and we are currently only at 500pts. I am playing Eldar. I am trying to play competitive, but not TFG.
My list so far is
1 Farseer on bike,
2x 3 Windriders with 1 Scatter & 2 Shuricannons each,
2 Hornets
and 2 Shadow Weavers.

My very first game was against a Ravenwing Strikeforce with 2x 3 Bikes with 1 powerfist each, 1 Chaplain on bike, 1 MM attack bike & a Dark Shroud.
I have yet to fit Ravenwing, but have heard nasty things. All game his entire army had a 2+ re-rollable Jink save.

We played 5 turns and all I managed to kill was 1 Space Marine....and that was on turn 5. Nothing like this has EVERY happened to me...with any army, much less my Eldar
He ended up winning because of the objectives, obviously, as there was no way I was gonna get close to those powerfists.
To be far, he only killed 1 of my bikes and the Shadow Weavers, but it was still one of the most unsatifying games I have ever played. I have played games that were crushing defeats for me that were still WAAAYYY more fun because I actually got to participate in the game rather than rolling dice that don't matter.

Don't get me wrong, the guy I played was cool and it is about time that Eldar got some decent counters, but I am seriously at a loss here.
Am I supposed to load up on Dark Reapers, which I am not a fan of, just to regain an "all-comers" list?
Even killing the Dark Shroud still leaves the bikes with a 3+ rerollable Jink (because skilled rider).

In general, do you think that list like Ravenwing & Genestealer cults will change the Meta since they are very good counters to shooting armies?
Will this finally encourage a shift towards CC armies?

Let's hear your thoughts

-

what is there to say. 2+ re-rollable saves from ravenwing or tzeentch demons are am abomination in the game, and its a reason that tournaments do not allow them. Hopefully GW can wakeup before 8th edition and fix things like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mew28 wrote:
Try spamming scatter lasers. Or fight them in CC to deny them any cover save.

you need to cause 36 wounds to get a single kill when something has a 2+ re-rollable save, this is no solution at all.

 Galef wrote:

Table wrote:
There are several ways to bring magnus to a 2++ re-roll 1. And since its not a cover save you cant ignore it easily.

Indeed, but he alone is 1/3 of his entire army. So worst case scenario, you ignore him. You CANNOT, however, ignore your entire opponent's army.

I do not think Magnus is "op". But its easy to give him a 2+ if you add demons and cheap. And since you should have demons in great number its most likely he is going to be sporting a 2+. In a fluff list, not so much. I also dont think you can ignore Magnus. He has to much dakka and 2 D ranged attacks and is a heavy heavy hitter in CC to boot. If you ignore him you are helping him make his points back. He will have to be dealt with in some fashion. Be that a tarpit to keep him from casting witchfires or turning ALL your guns on him. He is killable after all, it just takes alot to do it.

>6 scat bikes under 500 points
>Not being TFG
K buddy

It sounds like there was some cheating and/or people not knowing their rules. First if it was a ravenwing strike force it would need a HQ with the ravenwing special rule, of which there are only two, Sammael (dark angel on a jetbike) and Sableclaw (an AV 14 land speeder). If you didn't see either of those he was cheating. Second, *during their first turn only*, if they turbo boost they count as jinking until their next turn without having to snap fire in the following turn. So they give up their first turns shooting to get close to you, and are able to shoot normally on the second turn. Any time they jink after that, they are snap firing at BS1 since grim resolve only affects overwatch, and not even that in the turn after a jink.

So here is how you fight them, shoot them, force them to jink, then move on to the next unit. Once you've crippled the fire power of a large section of their units, then you can double up on targets and hope to get one thru. The entire army is going to have hit and run, but you should still charge them as that is literally your best chance at getting a wound thru. If you forced them to jink, they will have to charge back in to do any damage anyway. In CC all of ravenwings special rules go away, and you will have a massive advantage in number of attacks and models.

Ravenwing is a supplementary force, because if fighting a person with a clue, they hit like wet noodles. They don't have obsec, so they can't play the objective game, they are not great in CC (except for knights which get up to the rousing rating of merely ok), and while they can be tough they do so at the cost of being able to hurt the enemy. The OPs problems were he didn't know their rules, and his opponent was cheating. Probably time to put down the pitchforks and torches.

 Rippy wrote:
>6 scat bikes under 500 points
>Not being TFG
K buddy

Read my post again. I only had 2 SCATTER bikes. The other 4 had shurikens

Seriously, I am a bit tired of people assuming that just because I like bikes as my only troops (and have since 4th ed) that I only have Scatterbikes
Stop ostracizing me for continuing to use models that I have owned for a decade, long before they were OP. Less than half of the bikes I own have Scatter lasers

 Grimgold wrote:
It sounds like there was some cheating and/or people not knowing their rules. First if it was a ravenwing strike force it would need a HQ with the ravenwing special rule, of which there are only two, Sammael (dark angel on a jetbike) and Sableclaw (an AV 14 land speeder). If you didn't see either of those he was cheating. Second, *during their first turn only*, if they turbo boost they count as jinking until their next turn without having to snap fire in the following turn. So they give up their first turns shooting to get close to you, and are able to shoot normally on the second turn. Any time they jink after that, they are snap firing at BS1 since grim resolve only affects overwatch, and not even that in the turn after a jink..

I think there is an FAQ (albeit a draft) that grants any DA character on a bike to be RW. If that is true, he has a Chaplain on bike, so it was "legal"
Everything else you mention was done properly.
The only things I think were done wrong were A) they shouldn't have has Skilled rider & B) the Dark Shroud should have only given Stealth.

I'm gonna give my opponent a pass because he made it clear in the beginning that he was unfamiliar with some rules (former player returning to this edition). I should have made him check more, I just hate being that guy that keeps asking "can you check that rule please?" like 4x every round.
Next week if he is at the store, I'll bring this stuff up with him.

-

Common houserule is that every bike-equipped HQ gains the Ravenwing special rule. Since it's a little bit dumb only Sammeal and Sableclaw count.

I would never allow that and I play dark angels. The HQ restriction is there to gimp them in CC, otherwise it's like super friends without the need to take allies, grab a librarian and a chaplain and let the invisible black knight bikestar reign of terror begin. If they want CC capable ICs they need to take them from somewhere else, which means that they are going to have to take troops of one stripe or another which waters down how tough they can be for their points.

 Grimgold wrote:
I would never allow that and I play dark angels. The HQ restriction is there to gimp them in CC, otherwise it's like super friends without the need to take allies, grab a librarian and a chaplain and let the invisible black knight bikestar reign of terror begin. If they want CC capable ICs they need to take them from somewhere else, which means that they are going to have to take troops of one stripe or another which waters down how tough they can be for their points.

So why do they have multiple HQ slots? If they can only take one HQ why have multiple slots?

I just checked, in the draft FAQ for DAs, it mentions an errata that was published in 2015 that allows any character on a bike to be chosen as the HQ for the RW strikeforce.
It does not, however, grant said character the RW special rules, so no re-roll Jinks for him.

Actually just double checked and the FAQ mentioned this particular problem quoting an errata:

Page 159 – Ravenwing Strike Force, Restrictions
Replace this with the following:
‘All units in this Detachment must have the Ravenwing
special rule (pg 148) or be a Dark Angels Character
equipped with a Space Marine bike.’

bleh, not a fan of that but RAW is RAW, so it's not a house rule, but a very poor and very intentional decision. I for one do not welcome our black knight bike star overlords.

Take a few sicarins and shoot them to shiz.

Table wrote:
Take a few sicarins and shoot them to shiz.

Hard to take a SM unit in an eldar detachment

Anyway they only get 2+ jink form the Night Shroud's stealth so if you just kill that then they go back to 3+ jink (which is still really good with reroll but is killable). Also you could adopt the ITC house rule that rerollable 2+ on succeeds on a 4+ for the reroll.

But also DA aren't a top tier army and did not change the meta namely because there is plenty of ignore cover in the game (White Scars have a relic, Perfect Timing from psyker armies, Marker Lights for Tau) combined with the few good assault units in the game means that 2+ rerollable jink isn't the end all be all of power.

 Grimgold wrote:
Actually just double checked and the FAQ mentioned this particular problem quoting an errata:

Page 159 – Ravenwing Strike Force, Restrictions
Replace this with the following:
‘All units in this Detachment must have the Ravenwing
special rule (pg 148) or be a Dark Angels Character
equipped with a Space Marine bike.’

bleh, not a fan of that but RAW is RAW, so it's not a house rule, but a very poor and very intentional decision. I for one do not welcome our black knight bike star overlords.

Not all of us want to run captain mediocre who also costs $50 for one dude on a bike and is also finecast. Especially not if we're just using 2 squads, no one wants to take a 200 point HQ for a 200 point detachment. Or are you just opposed to the psychic phase and think biker librarians shouldn't be allowed in a biker formation?

500pts is odd territory, as the game was not designed to be played at such low points. Any imbalance will be greatly amplified at such small points, so you get extreme rock-paper-scissors moments like you highlighted.

If you want to play skirmish, try infinity, its much better, much more balanced, and much more fun.

Otherwise, you can upgrade your remaining bikes to 6 scatbikes instead, but that puts you in the deep end of "that guy"

Nothing more boring than watching two shoot and run armies playing each other.
You want satisfaction? Got a three step process for you.
1. Man up.
2. Locate your testicles.
3. CHARGE!!!
You might have lost, but then again you might have killed of the Powerfist rider.

You didn't even fight a Deathstar OP which are wrecking the ITC right now and the top list to beat. Space Marine super friends as its called. In a no holds barred fight with all armies at maximum cheese the Tau and their Ta'unar list takes it though.

Regular matches: Super Friends (Space Marines Deathstar)

Crazy Matches: Ta'unar (all hail the destroyer)

 kingbobbito wrote:

Not all of us want to run captain mediocre who also costs $50 for one dude on a bike and is also finecast. Especially not if we're just using 2 squads, no one wants to take a 200 point HQ for a 200 point detachment. Or are you just opposed to the psychic phase and think biker librarians shouldn't be allowed in a biker formation?

Raven wing are an army that is more or less immune to shooting, sucking in CC was a reasonable compensation for that. Instead they jink their happy butts up to you, and then loaded up with three CC focused ICs and proceed to ruin your day, it's about a TFG list as you can get outside of the full superfriends. It's also not very fluffy, "Don't worry Deathwing, you guys just stay on the barge we got this, Brother lIbrarian Leviticus got a lucky roll and we have invis, so we're good". The superfriends genie is out of the bottle, and thanks to the current ally chart there is no real way to stop it, so I'm frowning on it with the full knowledge it's not making the meta worse, it's just making the ravenwing less likeable. That was a big draw for me, Nobody hates the dark angels because they know we choose this army for reasons other than FOTM, and everyone is stoked to see marines that aren't McCragge Blue or Wolfy.

As for disliking the psychic phase, I actually like it a lot, at least in theory. It's unique-ish to 40k, it can be have some cool dynamics, it's fluffy, but there are just way too many ways to break it right now. None of the buffs are balanced, and the usefulness of the powers is all over the place. If I had a dollar for every telepathy psyker I've fought in tournaments, I could have paid my entry to at least a few of them. That's another issue with psychic powers right now, they don't make armies different, they make them the same, and that's lame.

Your answer is a mellee wraithknight. But it contradicts even further with "not being TFG".

The thing you could do is to either get ignore cover (magic, d-wraiths) or build a mellee unit which is clearly doable with eldar. As for mellee unit, it might be interesting. The mellee lancer bikers with a banshee mask autarch are gona be mvp vs ravenwing bikers if you manage to keep them safe from plazma for at least a couple phases. And here the rest of your shooters will help a lot - forcing them to jink. Or you could run a seer council but i'm afraid it's not going to be as effective point-to-point.

And that's a good way of running a previously underrated unit.

"Just roll on Telepathy" is the quick answer to this one. Melee Wraithknights are certainly a quick and easy answer to everything, but they're far from the only answer you've got.

 Grimgold wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

Not all of us want to run captain mediocre who also costs $50 for one dude on a bike and is also finecast. Especially not if we're just using 2 squads, no one wants to take a 200 point HQ for a 200 point detachment. Or are you just opposed to the psychic phase and think biker librarians shouldn't be allowed in a biker formation?

Raven wing are an army that is more or less immune to shooting, sucking in CC was a reasonable compensation for that. Instead they jink their happy butts up to you, and then loaded up with three CC focused ICs and proceed to ruin your day, it's about a TFG list as you can get outside of the full superfriends. It's also not very fluffy, "Don't worry Deathwing, you guys just stay on the barge we got this, Brother lIbrarian Leviticus got a lucky roll and we have invis, so we're good". The superfriends genie is out of the bottle, and thanks to the current ally chart there is no real way to stop it, so I'm frowning on it with the full knowledge it's not making the meta worse, it's just making the ravenwing less likeable. That was a big draw for me, Nobody hates the dark angels because they know we choose this army for reasons other than FOTM, and everyone is stoked to see marines that aren't McCragge Blue or Wolfy.

But I do run DW alongside them. I run a lot of DW. I want to run a small bike force that can survive until turn 2 when the pain (for me at least) drops in. I'm totally TFG. So again, I don't want to spend 200 points on Sammy when buying a librarian saves me over 100 points. Unfluffy? Every time the RW is called in Sammael happens to be there? "Sammy's under the weather today, so looks like the RW aren't allowed to help out here". And the people that run cheesy superfriends lists simply don't care about the fluff, so let them do their thing.

As for superfriends ICs, allowing librarians/company masters/chaplains with bikes isn't any big deal. You realize that 3 ICs really isn't anything, right? You can already take 2 in a CAD. Want some CC power in your bike squads? Run a bunch of iron priests on TWC (the generally preferred choice, because S10). I think you can just straight up take 5 of them w/wolves as a detachment. Want more librarians? We already have that, it's called a conclave. No one thinks DA are cheesy because we can take an extra HQ choice, they think we're cheesy because we have a 2+ rerollable. The last thing people will call us cheesy for is "oh no, you can take a formation that lets you take a librarian instead of a unique character" or "you're allowed to take three HQ choices, that's totally broken!"

Seriously, what is your reasoning for thinking that taking more than 1 HQ is overpowered?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Common houserule is that every bike-equipped HQ gains the Ravenwing special rule. Since it's a little bit dumb only Sammeal and Sableclaw count.

FAQ was that any IC on bike can be part of the HQ option but it didn´t give them ravenwing rule

Not that it's gona help that much w/o precision shots or barrage.

 Elbows wrote:
I'll be honest. I wouldn't even play a game with anything that involved 2+ re-rollable...anything. That's just silliness that doesn't belong on a table.

Agreed, even 3++ re-rollable is stretching it. This is the kind of madness that makes the game unplayable

Just posting to confirm Dark Angel rules for anyone who's not sure.
1) The FAQ allows the chaplain on bike in the Ravenwing detachment
2) Ravenwing Bike Squads may take a powerfist on the sergeant. Ravenwing Black Knights cannot
3) All Ravenwing (not the chaplain) get the re-roll for jink
4) Ravenwing Bike Squad does not have Skilled rider, Black Knights do.
5) Dark Shroud gives Shrouded to itself only. Other units within 12" get stealth
6) Points of the models and gear listed comes to 445 with the bikes being bikes. It would be over 500 with black knights, so it was definitely bikes. I'm guessing the remaining 55 went on upgrading to veteran sergeants and the chaplain having other gear

Jink + stealth + Ravenwing is 3+ rerolled. Not 2+ rerolled.
There were definitely some errors in this game.

And yeah for tactical advice, Ravenwing are really bad in combat by themselves. 1 attack each. 2 attacks for the power fist IF he's a veteran. However, they have Hit and Run so can get out if they don't want to be there.

Can darkshrowd re-roll cover?

I believe it has RW rule so yes

mew28 wrote:Galef correct me if I wrong but were you not one of the people saying magnus who has a higher toughness then these bikes and has a 3+ with rerolling of 1 for an invaluable save was fine back when Tradito made his Magnus is OP thread?

Not only that, but I either made a thread about, or else, extensively commented in a thread about ravenwing, and basically said that they're completely OP precisely for this reason.

Of course, when I complain about things either being functionally indestructible, or otherwise, having WAY too much firepower or durability for their points cost, people mock me, call me a troll, a scrub, and everything else in the book.

Go figure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Magnus is 650 points though and a Unique character, not to mention a LoW.

These guys, with a better re-rollable, are about 40 each and are in FA so can be spammed at such a cheap points level.

So fething what? A 2+ rerollable invuln is still virtually indestructible. And combined with its close combat capabilities and psychic capabilities? Combined with its mobility?

I don't care what the points cost is. Something that's virtually indestructible AND has that much mobility and capability to deal damage does NOT belong in the game.

And especially not in a non-apocalypse game.

One stomp and it's down.

 Galef wrote:

Table wrote:
There are several ways to bring magnus to a 2++ re-roll 1. And since its not a cover save you cant ignore it easily.

Indeed, but he alone is 1/3 of his entire army. So worst case scenario, you ignore him. You CANNOT, however, ignore your entire opponent's army.

You cannot fething ignore an FMC that has the damage-dealing capability that Magnus has WHILE IGNORING LINE OF SIGHT.

Placing Magnus on the field basically means: "Alright. I'm going to spend 5-7 turns deleting whatever I want. No, you can't do anything about it."

Which is precisely why players should have boycotted Magnus. Because that kind of bull gak does not belong in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
One stomp and it's down.

You are making two assumptions that cannot be made:

1. You are assuming that I am fielding a GMC or a superheavy walker.

2. You are assuming that the opponent is actually dumb enough to land the thing within charging distance while at the same time not being confident that Magnus can kill the thing prior to Initiative phase 0.

If he's not landing the thing it just ends up as an overpriced spellcaster and if you're not fielding superheavies, you don't have to worry about his d-shots.

And to be clear:

Magnus = roughly 3 1/2 Captain Shrikes.

Which would you prefer to take?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
If he's not landing the thing it just ends up as an overpriced spellcaster.

As so often happens, you have, either accidentally or deliberately, misconstrued, misinterpreted and misrepresented what I actually said. I didn't say "dumb enough to land the thing" and add no further qualifications.

Learn to read more carefully.

He's also 3.25 St Celestines with resurrecting bodyguards and a buff aura.

 Traditio wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Table wrote:
There are several ways to bring magnus to a 2++ re-roll 1. And since its not a cover save you cant ignore it easily.

Indeed, but he alone is 1/3 of his entire army. So worst case scenario, you ignore him. You CANNOT, however, ignore your entire opponent's army.

You cannot fething ignore an FMC that has the damage-dealing capability that Magnus has WHILE IGNORING LINE OF SIGHT.

Placing Magnus on the field basically means: "Alright. I'm going to spend 5-7 turns deleting whatever I want. No, you can't do anything about it."

Which is precisely why players should have boycotted Magnus. Because that kind of bull gak does not belong in the game.

And once again (like in the other thread) you fail to realise just how low of a damage output Magnus has for a 650pt model unless you build the rest of the army around supplying him with endless warpcharges, and also the fact that all his shooting attacks are short ranged.

Ignoring LoS doesn't matter that much when you can only shoot as far as a bolter as a maximum and are tall enough to see over all but the tallest terrain pieces.

 koooaei wrote:
He's also 3.25 St Celestines with resurrecting bodyguards and a buff aura.

I never said that Magnus is the only OP bull gak in the game. Power levels and points costs are all over the place.

The whole game is a heaping load of gak.

 Traditio wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
He's also 3.25 St Celestines with resurrecting bodyguards and a buff aura.

I never said that Magnus is the only OP bull gak in the game. Power levels and points costs are all over the place.

The whole game is a heaping load of gak.

I've pulled a win in a 1250 pt tourney running mono orks and having faced two ravenwings and an eldar double-knight list. Should they nerf orks?

It's all about approach. Ravenwing is extremely hard to beat if you don't have tools or opt not to use them. Like when you declare the sky falling cause of Magnus. Yep, he looks intimidating with his ml5, manifesting on 2+, a spawn-turning sword, d-strength powers and most importantly nipple horns but than you should take into consideration that he's just a single model without stomps and that if he's flying he has his effectiveness reduced even more. And he needs warpcharge batteries. You could get 4-5 sorcerors for his price. And they'd likely know invisibility/endurance and soul swap. Which is way more frightening. So, if you still choose to throw everything at a flying 2++ re-rollable daemon while completely ignoring the rest of the list that you CAN kill, it's entirely your problem. Not telling that there are no imbalances but in this case the sky's still up there.

As for beating ravenwing with eldar you either fish for ignore cover - and the OP could have easilly done that without even adjusting his list - or...slightly adjust your list. A commonly taken wraithknight can help you deal with them. He's not a counter as is cause ravenwing can still hurt him with their plazma quite significantly but he can help. Or you take something like bright lances. It's funny how a mediocre unit can suddenly work wonders vs a certain foe. Just don't forget your banshee mask or they'll get plazmaed down on a bs2 tl overwatch. Even if it's not a universal answer, still a good way to field a somewhat exotic unit which is always fun.

Zustiur wrote:
Just posting to confirm Dark Angel rules for anyone who's not sure.
1) The FAQ allows the chaplain on bike in the Ravenwing detachment
2) Ravenwing Bike Squads may take a powerfist on the sergeant. Ravenwing Black Knights cannot
3) All Ravenwing (not the chaplain) get the re-roll for jink
4) Ravenwing Bike Squad does not have Skilled rider, Black Knights do.
5) Dark Shroud gives Shrouded to itself only. Other units within 12" get stealth
6) Points of the models and gear listed comes to 445 with the bikes being bikes. It would be over 500 with black knights, so it was definitely bikes. I'm guessing the remaining 55 went on upgrading to veteran sergeants and the chaplain having other gear

Jink + stealth + Ravenwing is 3+ rerolled. Not 2+ rerolled.
There were definitely some errors in this game.

And yeah for tactical advice, Ravenwing are really bad in combat by themselves. 1 attack each. 2 attacks for the power fist IF he's a veteran. However, they have Hit and Run so can get out if they don't want to be there.

Thank you. This is incredibly helpful. I think my strategy will now be to change up my list a bit, adding a Warlock for 2 reasons. 1) Reveal the Dark Shroud and blow it up, 2) Being a character with a withchblade, the Warlock can challenge out the Fist and make assaults worth while.

I am tempted to play an Autarch instead of a Farseer, but I need to play around with the points first

-

question is what else are you likely to play or is it just a 1 v 1 escalation

 rawne2510 wrote:
question is what else are you likely to play or is it just a 1 v 1 escalation

Well I play Saim-Hann themed Eldar, so every list I have every played or will ever play is GOING to have bikes. At least 2x 3 with at least 1 Scatter laser per unit, more if I just can't fit points easily somewhere else.
It might be a good opportunity to take some Shinning Spears. At which point I would have not issue taking more Scatterbikes, since Spears can be a liability

Sorry I meant are you playing against any other armies or is it just you against the DA player. gearing your list for escalation against a single foe is a little easier than against say 5-6 different types of armies


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I had an escalation league last year where we had 12 players. 1 eldar, 1 tau, 1 orc, 1 GK, 2 guard and 6 codex marines for across the chapters. 1 list submitted at the begin that you had to play against all (couldn´t change for each army)

Oh, I see. No, it is a league that lasts until April and we get points for playing someone we have not played yet. So actually, a rematch may not be likely with the DA player anytime soon, although it is entirely possible

But in any case, adding some CC to the list seems like a good idea. The only units I have for this are: 5 Scorpions, 5 Spears, 5 Wraithblades, or an Avatar. Out of those, the Spears seem to be the best for 500pts

Okay, here's the Ravenwing tutorial.

All units with the Ravenwing rule can reroll their Jink saves. All Ravenwing units on bikes have Hit & Run.

Normal Bike Squads have a 4+ Jink save. They do not have Skilled Riders. They can take all the usual Bike Squad upgrades - meltas, grav, flamers, plasma, and the usual Sergeant weapons.

Ravenwing Knights (and Commad Squads) have Skilled Riders, so they get a 3+ Jink. They only upgrade the squad can take is the Ravenwing grenade launcher. It has the usual grenade launcher grenades, plus rad and stasis grenades. Ravenwing rad grenades are weak sauce, so you won't see those used. Stasis grenades will see use as a debuff on a unit the Knights are about to charge. Ravenwing Knights are also pretty buff in assault - 2 attacks base, with pistol+ccw, and their corvus hammers are S+1 Rending. The squad leader can only take a power weapon, not a power fist, but since he's already got the corvus hammer, there's little reason to do this. Command Squads can also take an Apothecary for FNP, and can take the Ravenwing Banner to auto-pass Hit & Run.

The Dark Shroud itself has Shrouded, and passes Stealth to any friendly DA unit within 6". So, if one member of the unit is within 6" of the Dark Shroud, the whole unit gets Stealth. The Dark Shroud also denies Overwatch on any unit that began a charge within its Stealth bubble.

Sammael has Skilled Riders, and conveys it to a unit he joins if they don't already have it.

So, normal Ravenwing Bike Squad - 4+ Jink Save
Normal Ravenwing Bike Squad within 6" of a Dark Shroud - 3+ Jink Save
Normal Ravenwing Bike Squad with Sammael and within 6" of a Dark Shroud - 2+ Jink Save

Ravenwing Knights - 3+ Jink Save
Ravenwing Knights within 6" of a Dark Shroud - 2+ Jink Save

Dark Shroud - 2+ Jink save.

Everything else Ravenwing (speeders & flyers): 4+ Jink, 3+ within a Dark Shroud's Stealth bubble.

One more effect might improve a Jink save - a Librarian with Shrouding. He can give Shrouding to all nearby units, which could also jack up a regular Ravenwing Jink to a 2+.

The bane of Ravenwing is Ignores Cover, but even with that you're still shooting at T5 Space Marines with a 3+ save. Regular Ravenwing Bike Squads are also weak in assault, but can Hit & Run out. Ravenwing Knights are NOT weak in assault, and can Hit & Run out of an unfavorable one. Plus, both units fire Overwatch at BS2 at least, and with twin-linked weapons. Ravenwing Knights have twin linked plasma guns with an 18" long range and a 9" rapid fire range, so charging them is going to hurt.

The Dark Shroud is vulnerable to assault, and is vulnerable to being rammed. Shooting at it without Ignores Cover is usually a waste of time, because it's almost guaranteed to Jink away any damaging hits, and Jinking does not affect its value to the DA player as a whole.

Hope that clears things up.

To the OP: The Windriders where everyone had a heavy weapon pretty much cost you any sympathy I might have had. Buuuuuuut it looks as though your opponent - let's say he was mistaken, which is way nicer than saying he cheated. Regular Ravenwing Bike Squads have never had Skilled Riders, and Ravenwing Knights have never been able to take power fists.

And I am completely forgetting able Serpents. They still have they once per game 2D6 ignores cover str6 shots. I could 'hail mary' one round at the Dark Shroud and hope to drop it in the first turn.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Okay, here's the Ravenwing tutorial.

All units with the Ravenwing rule can reroll their Jink saves. All Ravenwing units on bikes have Hit & Run.

Normal Bike Squads have a 4+ Jink save. They do not have Skilled Riders. They can take all the usual Bike Squad upgrades - meltas, grav, flamers, plasma, and the usual Sergeant weapons.

Ravenwing Knights (and Commad Squads) have Skilled Riders, so they get a 3+ Jink. They only upgrade the squad can take is the Ravenwing grenade launcher. It has the usual grenade launcher grenades, plus rad and stasis grenades. Ravenwing rad grenades are weak sauce, so you won't see those used. Stasis grenades will see use as a debuff on a unit the Knights are about to charge. Ravenwing Knights are also pretty buff in assault - 2 attacks base, with pistol+ccw, and their corvus hammers are S+1 Rending. The squad leader can only take a power weapon, not a power fist, but since he's already got the corvus hammer, there's little reason to do this. Command Squads can also take an Apothecary for FNP, and can take the Ravenwing Banner to auto-pass Hit & Run.

The Dark Shroud itself has Shrouded, and passes Stealth to any friendly DA unit within 6". So, if one member of the unit is within 6" of the Dark Shroud, the whole unit gets Stealth. The Dark Shroud also denies Overwatch on any unit that began a charge within its Stealth bubble.

Sammael has Skilled Riders, and conveys it to a unit he joins if they don't already have it.

So, normal Ravenwing Bike Squad - 4+ Jink Save
Normal Ravenwing Bike Squad within 6" of a Dark Shroud - 3+ Jink Save
Normal Ravenwing Bike Squad with Sammael and within 6" of a Dark Shroud - 2+ Jink Save

Ravenwing Knights - 3+ Jink Save
Ravenwing Knights within 6" of a Dark Shroud - 2+ Jink Save

Dark Shroud - 2+ Jink save.

Everything else Ravenwing (speeders & flyers): 4+ Jink, 3+ within a Dark Shroud's Stealth bubble.

One more effect might improve a Jink save - a Librarian with Shrouding. He can give Shrouding to all nearby units, which could also jack up a regular Ravenwing Jink to a 2+.

The bane of Ravenwing is Ignores Cover, but even with that you're still shooting at T5 Space Marines with a 3+ save. Regular Ravenwing Bike Squads are also weak in assault, but can Hit & Run out. Ravenwing Knights are NOT weak in assault, and can Hit & Run out of an unfavorable one. Plus, both units fire Overwatch at BS2 at least, and with twin-linked weapons. Ravenwing Knights have twin linked plasma guns with an 18" long range and a 9" rapid fire range, so charging them is going to hurt.

The Dark Shroud is vulnerable to assault, and is vulnerable to being rammed. Shooting at it without Ignores Cover is usually a waste of time, because it's almost guaranteed to Jink away any damaging hits, and Jinking does not affect its value to the DA player as a whole.

Hope that clears things up.

To the OP: The Windriders where everyone had a heavy weapon pretty much cost you any sympathy I might have had. Buuuuuuut it looks as though your opponent - let's say he was mistaken, which is way nicer than saying he cheated. Regular Ravenwing Bike Squads have never had Skilled Riders, and Ravenwing Knights have never been able to take power fists.

Lovely review breakdown. If they jinx they are snap firing overwatch so down´t get the boost??

Knights lose fancy overwatch if you make them jink.

Yes, that is correct. Still twin-linked though.

Look at all these heretics. You killed one space marine, you should be honored.

 kingbobbito wrote:

But I do run DW alongside them. I run a lot of DW. I want to run a small bike force that can survive until turn 2 when the pain (for me at least) drops in. I'm totally TFG. So again, I don't want to spend 200 points on Sammy when buying a librarian saves me over 100 points. Unfluffy? Every time the RW is called in Sammael happens to be there? "Sammy's under the weather today, so looks like the RW aren't allowed to help out here". And the people that run cheesy superfriends lists simply don't care about the fluff, so let them do their thing.

As for superfriends ICs, allowing librarians/company masters/chaplains with bikes isn't any big deal. You realize that 3 ICs really isn't anything, right? You can already take 2 in a CAD. Want some CC power in your bike squads? Run a bunch of iron priests on TWC (the generally preferred choice, because S10). I think you can just straight up take 5 of them w/wolves as a detachment. Want more librarians? We already have that, it's called a conclave. No one thinks DA are cheesy because we can take an extra HQ choice, they think we're cheesy because we have a 2+ rerollable. The last thing people will call us cheesy for is "oh no, you can take a formation that lets you take a librarian instead of a unique character" or "you're allowed to take three HQ choices, that's totally broken!"

Seriously, what is your reasoning for thinking that taking more than 1 HQ is overpowered?

First you can't balance around players with good intentions, so the fact you don't cheese it is not a reason it's okay, because others will. Second, I know this isn't a meta defining feature, there are much worse bikestars that space marines have access to (all of which involve ravenwing), but for a single faction bike star it's pretty top of the heap, because of plasma talons/grenade launchers, rerolling cover saves, expert rider, rending, hit and run, a turn of full BS after jinking, and that's before the HQ. You spend your first turn laughing off an opponent's shots getting into rapid fire range for your talons, charge the survivors, and hit and running out at the end of your opponent's turn to repeat the process. It's a completely unfun army to fight, it's also an autopilot force. The only real moment of vulnerability is that they can be overwhelmed in CC (and due to speed they get to choose their dance partners, so that's iffy), which is much more difficult with the addition of CC focused ICs. Sammael was an anchor, he didn't add significantly to their CC ability, he was overcost, so he reduced the effectiveness of ravenwing. Instead we get to replace him with three very cost effective CC ICs which is a vast improvement.

Also if you haven't noticed this entire thread is about how OP ravenwing are, and you come in here "They are Fine, because there are worse things out there", the fact that there are one or two bike stars that can beat ravenwing doesn't mean it's balanced, AIDS is demonstrably less bad than Ebola, but I don't want either.

 Grimgold wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

But I do run DW alongside them. I run a lot of DW. I want to run a small bike force that can survive until turn 2 when the pain (for me at least) drops in. I'm totally TFG. So again, I don't want to spend 200 points on Sammy when buying a librarian saves me over 100 points. Unfluffy? Every time the RW is called in Sammael happens to be there? "Sammy's under the weather today, so looks like the RW aren't allowed to help out here". And the people that run cheesy superfriends lists simply don't care about the fluff, so let them do their thing.

As for superfriends ICs, allowing librarians/company masters/chaplains with bikes isn't any big deal. You realize that 3 ICs really isn't anything, right? You can already take 2 in a CAD. Want some CC power in your bike squads? Run a bunch of iron priests on TWC (the generally preferred choice, because S10). I think you can just straight up take 5 of them w/wolves as a detachment. Want more librarians? We already have that, it's called a conclave. No one thinks DA are cheesy because we can take an extra HQ choice, they think we're cheesy because we have a 2+ rerollable. The last thing people will call us cheesy for is "oh no, you can take a formation that lets you take a librarian instead of a unique character" or "you're allowed to take three HQ choices, that's totally broken!"

Seriously, what is your reasoning for thinking that taking more than 1 HQ is overpowered?

First you can't balance around players with good intentions, so the fact you don't cheese it is not a reason it's okay, because others will. Second, I know this isn't a meta defining feature, there are much worse bikestars that space marines have access to (all of which involve ravenwing), but for a single faction bike star it's pretty top of the heap, because of plasma talons/grenade launchers, rerolling cover saves, expert rider, rending, hit and run, a turn of full BS after jinking, and that's before the HQ. You spend your first turn laughing off an opponent's shots getting into rapid fire range for your talons, charge the survivors, and hit and running out at the end of your opponent's turn to repeat the process. It's a completely unfun army to fight, it's also an autopilot force. The only real moment of vulnerability is that they can be overwhelmed in CC (and due to speed they get to choose their dance partners, so that's iffy), which is much more difficult with the addition of CC focused ICs. Sammael was an anchor, he didn't add significantly to their CC ability, he was overcost, so he reduced the effectiveness of ravenwing. Instead we get to replace him with three very cost effective CC ICs which is a vast improvement.

Also if you haven't noticed this entire thread is about how OP ravenwing are, and you come in here "They are Fine, because there are worse things out there", the fact that there are one or two bike stars that can beat ravenwing doesn't mean it's balanced, AIDS is demonstrably less bad than Ebola, but I don't want either.

I also said:

No one thinks DA are cheesy because we can take an extra HQ choice, they think we're cheesy because we have a 2+ rerollable.

Adding in the minor benefit of a couple chaplains doesn't change the whole system, as if you really want some CC ICs you can run a CAD and take 2, a third isn't game changing. A dedicated CC unit won't care about a chaplain in the squad, they'll still steamroll the basic bike squads, and black knights can already hold their own against a number of CC units. Has a single person in this thread, other than you, said "they can take a third chaplain, so broken"?

Martel732 wrote:
Knights lose fancy overwatch if you make them jink.

i think there was a faq that stated that they overwatch at bs2 even if they jinked - at least we play it this way - might be a mistake.

Ironically ravenwing are an army my nids don't really struggle with.

They have a glaring downfall in that they have 0 ability to fight in CC.
So simply dragging them in is enough to cause them a lot of issues.

Eldar have the issue though that you need a fast unit to pin them down that won't get killed instantly.
So your jet bikes really aren't much use against them.
This is also one of the funny situations where shining spears would be useful lol.



All in all, your not going to shoot them off the table in low points games.
You would have to tailor an army to beat them but in turn, you would have a badly lopsided list.






On the topic of magnus.
It's 650 points that requires even more in extra models just to power him.
While he is good he is not top tier tournament stuff.
For less you can grab a tau tuna suit.
For slightly more you get a twin turbo laser hound.
Although with the cost in extra models to power him up, both models actually work out far more effective for their cost.

So he isn't game breaking by any means.
He is tough and can hold his own, but he requires far too many points poured into him with a list to suit, just to make him effective.

Just not really viable except friendly tournaments.

Jackal wrote:On the topic of magnus.
It's 650 points that requires even more in extra models just to power him.
While he is good he is not top tier tournament stuff.
For less you can grab a tau tuna suit.
For slightly more you get a twin turbo laser hound.
Although with the cost in extra models to power him up, both models actually work out far more effective for their cost.

So he isn't game breaking by any means.
He is tough and can hold his own, but he requires far too many points poured into him with a list to suit, just to make him effective.

Just not really viable except friendly tournaments.

The bolded doesn't follow. The fact that there are other OP things, and other things that are even more OP than Magnus, doesn't make Magnus not OP.

If you can put a unit on the table and say: "Ok, I'm going to consistently delete units from the table, and no, there's nothing you can do about it," then yes, that is precisely what I, or any reasonable person, would call OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Galef:

You play Eldar. You know that d-flamers ignore cover, right?

 Traditio wrote:

Jackal wrote:On the topic of magnus.
It's 650 points that requires even more in extra models just to power him.
While he is good he is not top tier tournament stuff.
For less you can grab a tau tuna suit.
For slightly more you get a twin turbo laser hound.
Although with the cost in extra models to power him up, both models actually work out far more effective for their cost.

So he isn't game breaking by any means.
He is tough and can hold his own, but he requires far too many points poured into him with a list to suit, just to make him effective.

Just not really viable except friendly tournaments.

The bolded doesn't follow. The fact that there are other OP things, and other things that are even more OP than Magnus, doesn't make Magnus not OP.

If you can put a unit on the table and say: "Ok, I'm going to consistently delete units from the table, and no, there's nothing you can do about it," then yes, that is precisely what I, or any reasonable person, would call OP.

None of Magnus's powers just delete units. They are all decent but not over powered. Also single unit that costs at least 1/3 of your army I would hope of can kill a unit or two a turn.

 Marmatag wrote:
Look at all these heretics. You killed one space marine, you should be honored.

Well it depends. It would be an utterly crushing strategic victory for an IG, Ork or Tyranid player. For Eldar... not so much.

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Knights lose fancy overwatch if you make them jink.

i think there was a faq that stated that they overwatch at bs2 even if they jinked - at least we play it this way - might be a mistake.

It would have to be an errata, not an FAQ, as the rules state "unless jinking, count their BS as 2 when firing overwatch". I doubt something would suddenly make them change their mind on how the rule works. Although this is GW.

Honestly, saves just should not be rerollable, period.

 Fafnir wrote:
Honestly, saves just should not be rerollable, period.

You don't fething say?

It's almost like someone has proposed this before...I wonder who it was, it's on the tip of my tongue...

...

Ah well. Whoever he was, he proposed that we just get rid of rerollables altogether, and he was viciously mocked/criticized for so suggesting.

Go fething figure.

Simply because said person was criticised because they were making an overarching change to fix a relatively small problem that only has a few perpetrators.

5+ rerollables, 4+ rerollables, 5+ re-roll 1s ect. aren't the problem.

Not only that but you also wanted to remove Twin-linked, Hatred, Preferred Enemy, Zealot, Master-crafted, Digital Weapons, Prescience etc. removing much of the Game's variation and granularity.

You also wanted to removed rerollable Reserve rolls, Seize the Initiative attempts, Psychic Tests, Morale Tests, Leadership Tests, Fear Tests, Pinning Tests etc.


But no, because people pointed out that was ridiculous and too broad of a change even though they only complain about 1 small part of the rerollable spectrum they're all wrong and beneath you.

Go fething figure.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Knights lose fancy overwatch if you make them jink.

i think there was a faq that stated that they overwatch at bs2 even if they jinked - at least we play it this way - might be a mistake.

It would have to be an errata, not an FAQ, as the rules state "unless jinking, count their BS as 2 when firing overwatch". I doubt something would suddenly make them change their mind on how the rule works. Although this is GW.

They have an FAQ that allows grim resolve to ignore invisibility.

Well, Ravenwing only killed 1x bike and 2x Vaul platforms.

Picking up handfuls of RW bikes isn't really going to balance anything is it?

In this battle, the correct solution is to suicide the farseer into the darkshroud to kill it. when against a Ravenwing list like that, you must kill the darkshroud as quickly as possible or the game is over.

Alternatively, if you just can't (farseer dies) spread out, and force his units to leave the bubble. Shoot anything that does.

I'm not sure if I'm just a terrible player, but my gaming buddy has never complained about the rerollable jinks. Granted, we play reasonably friendly games. But it's never been the steamrolling that I'm reading people on here have been experiencing

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
I'm not sure if I'm just a terrible player, but my gaming buddy has never complained about the rerollable jinks. Granted, we play reasonably friendly games. But it's never been the steamrolling that I'm reading people on here have been experiencing

what does your opponent use?

In fairness, the OP in return lost only 1 bike and 2 support guns, for a total of 7 models max. So, there was no steamrollering on either side.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
In fairness, the OP in return lost only 1 bike and 2 support guns, for a total of 7 models max. So, there was no steamrollering on either side.

True, but the reason it wasn't a fun game is because most my turns where either rolling dice that did noting, or turboboosting my entire army around the table.
I literally did a half circle around the table edge. In the end, the RW player took ALL objectives, first blood & Line Breaker. And I only took Line breaker.

After discussing it here, though, I realize that we both made mistakes. His bikes should only have had a 3+, not a 2+, and I really should have taken Shriek, or tried for Perfect timing
Although I plan to change my list up for the League, I would feel more confident even playing a straight rematch with the same list.

So I really need to give a big thanks to everyone who participated in this thread. THANX!

-

 Galef wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
In fairness, the OP in return lost only 1 bike and 2 support guns, for a total of 7 models max. So, there was no steamrollering on either side.

True, but the reason it wasn't a fun game is because most my turns where either rolling dice that did noting, or turboboosting my entire army around the table.
I literally did a half circle around the table edge. In the end, the RW player took ALL objectives, first blood & Line Breaker. And I only took Line breaker.

After discussing it here, though, I realize that we both made mistakes. His bikes should only have had a 3+, not a 2+, and I really should have taken Shriek, or tried for Perfect timing
Although I plan to change my list up for the League, I would feel more confident even playing a straight rematch with the same list.

So I really need to give a big thanks to everyone who participated in this thread. THANX!

-

You lost to an army you've never faced, no shame in that. Read up on the units (1d4chan has fantastic army breakdowns, modify your list, and ask for a rematch. Also, double check your opponent, as some things he did wrong.

 rawne2510 wrote:

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
I'm not sure if I'm just a terrible player, but my gaming buddy has never complained about the rerollable jinks. Granted, we play reasonably friendly games. But it's never been the steamrolling that I'm reading people on here have been experiencing

what does your opponent use?

Well I've used ravenwing against nids, chaos, Orks as well as the harder armies such as Ad Mech convocation lists. It's always interesting and we've never had outright one sided games with it. I suppose it's down to list construction and your meta really.

Looking at the codex, unless the Chaplain had the Shroud of Heroes, the bikes would have only had a 3+ reroll.

Black Knights could fit, but they can't take Powerfists, so it's a no go on that, plus there aren't enough points after Chaplain/Knights/Attack Bike/Darkshroud to include any fists.

If you're suspecting shenanigans, talk to your TO. Or, talk to the guy.

My brother and I, after an experience with a TFG who added a lot of rules, will show each other where in the codex/rule we get each thing. Maybe you should enact something similar.

Because it;s pretty dumb. A 5+ rerollable is mechanically worse than a 3+, and a 3+ rerollable is equal to a 2+ followed by a 5+, such as that had by any terminator squad with an apothecary.